this is a meeting of the sustainability committee it's not an official committee we're not taking any votes we're not making decisions we're here to get information uh possibly make recommendations to the fall Shaker Lane
building committee um with that I'll turn it over to either Mary Lee or Merill I'm not sure who's going to talk and present it'll be me um you should be able
to yep okay great so uh before I dive into this I would like to do a few introductions um I'll start with Studio G and we could just do ourselves and then we can move through the the town and then people outside of the SBC uh so
I'm Mary Lee Mercy I'm project architect uh with Studio G mer Miss FL your project manager with Studio G Steve MIT with Stud Matt Woodward hbac engineer with ggd Consulting
Engineers Eric ruoff with the green engineer sustainable design consultant Matt did Matt go yet Matt went yes all right uh Mark Stafford uh hi Mark Stafford um turn
towns and Harry um towns owners project manager okay I'm Steve mark on this on the school business manager uh non voting member of the shakane building committee and a member of the suain vill committee Steve Moore
uh Steve Moore chairman of the uh shakane School building committee okay Diane Diane Dickerson um special projects out of the Town administrator's office Mike
Mike Mike scudo I'm on the Shaker Lane building committee and the pmbc Charlotte hi Charlotte Dolan's little reg uh resident and a member of the sustainability committee okay and we
also have Dave Riley with us Dave Riley School District energy manager and I think that's did I miss anybody if I did unmute yourself and speak up all right great thank you very much I really appreciate it it seems like we
have a a really good group of people today today I promise we'll get you out of here in an hour so this agenda uh we're going to be talking about General goals and cover what you're going to be getting in the new school just as a
baseline a default and then we'll be talking about what we can achieve beyond that what is what is Within Reach uh I think as Steve Mo put it before however much green our green can afford and we'll get into some specifics
about mechanical system and about where some funding is coming from so we already did introduction but with you on our side is the architect as well as our mechanical consultant Matt Woodward uh as well as our green consultant who are
helping us out with sustainability in general as well as lead points uh and that's Eric so because this is a workshop function of Zoom I think somebody mentioned it looks different from regular Zoom that's because it's a it's a workshop format
so if you have a question you can click the little button to raise your hand or if you're a member of the public you can also uh I think you can you have to type your comment into the chat and then Steve Mark should be able to see that and then can read the comments and there will be a few times that I pause to
allow for discussion all right so for anybody not familiar with the project or anybody who is watching this later from the recording this is for the Shaker Lane Elementary which is a prek through grade two School uh it is located right here
in the town of Littleton and here's a blowup of the site and the new school is set to be located at the upper field while the new school is in operation the new school will be constructed everybody will move into the new school the old
school will be demolished and will be replaced with some Playing Fields uh some more fun facts about the school it is for 435 students in K to 2 plus enough classroom to accommodate 48 to 60 students in prek new construction
two floors tall uh it's going to include some ability for the community to use some of the spaces after hours such as the gymnasium and the cafeteria and it's oriented so that the lower field and the new Fields down below will be really
accessible to the community with parking and drive ISS we don't have a recent cost estimate uh but the discussions that we're having today will contribute to discussions that are going to that we need to include in the information when we get our next estimate and that scheduled to
happen in the summer all right so the SBC has already done a ton of work in terms of looking at a bunch of different options considering different sites they established a long list of evaluation criteria H they applied that to each of
the options as we looked at them first and foremost in the evaluation criteria was looking at whether or not it can meet the educational program of the district as well as cost and being really responsible with the town's money they also looked at the best site
location community and neighborhood and they focused to some extent on sustainability but tonight we're doing a really deep dive into more aspects of sustainability for the project all right so getting into what
the project will include already so because this is getting funding from the msca which is a state organization that gets money from the sales tax and then contributes to various communities to help them build new schools or renovate
old schools uh we don't have exact numbers yet but we have been estimating that the msba is going to be covering around 30 to 35% of the overall project so in order to meet the msba guidelines
uh the school needs to achieve silver certification in lead at a minimum it needs to meet stretch code standards which some communities in Massachusetts are not stretch code communities but luckily Littleton is so we would be doing that anyhow and the
project must be both photovoltaic ready and electric vehicle ready which means that we need to have all of the infrastructure there for the Chargers or the solar panels to be installed at a later date this is the minimum we can uh of course talk about actually installing some of those things now but we're
talking Baseline of what you're getting here this is called the msba green schools program this is not to be confused with the green ribbon school program which is another program that's done through the US Department of el
Elementary and secondary education Ori so littleton's looking pretty good on the sustainability front so far uh so because this is at least a silver School lead requires us to look at a whole bunch of different categories that affect sustainability and affects
the health and wellness of the building occupants as we are moving through this process we will be considering all of these different aspects and many decisions are going to be baked in for example we're already going to have efficient Lighting systems we're going to be considering the Acoustics uh we'll
be looking at efficient systems in general and trying to reduce water where we can and choosing healthy materials the reason I'm going into all of this is because over the summer we did a community survey you may or may may not have seen it but we got back a
lot of responses where people mentioned that sustainability was important to them and they were asking whether or not the school was going to include a lot of these things so we wanted to let people know that many of these things are already baked in things that people were asking about and a few other things
people mentioned are things that we they're open for discussion either they are easily achievable within the goals we're going to talk about tonight or maybe they're a little bit more aspirational but this is really the beginning of a conversation so we heard
from the community survey and now we would really like to hear from you guys and what does sustainability look like in Littleton what are some comments you have on what I've already gone over and what else would you like us to be talking about
I'm just going to say if you have somebody something to say unmute yourself and Chim in anybody Steve can you hear me yeah go ahead Dave uh just as a point of interest you mentioned uh Green Ribbon Schools um the Littleton School District
K through2 has been designated as a green ribbon School yes that's fantastic anybody have comments so uh Merill and I have both at one point or another either watched a recording of the sustainability
committee meeting or uh Merl actually attended one and what we are hearing is that the sustainability committee is interested in becoming involved in this project and others in Littleton and we wanted to let you know that now is really the time none of these decisions
have been made yet and this is really a a kickoff meeting so to speak in terms of sustainability so if anybody from the committee has any uh Insight on what the town goals in general are or other things that have been coming up at those
meetings uh it would be it would be great to hear those Charlotte you have your hand raised Char uh thanks and thanks for the invite to to join this uh conversation um so
the sustainability Committee in Littleton um has a number of projects underway and and uh several areas of focus but I think two that well one in particular that might be most aligned with this is working on the climate action plan um other towns have a
climate action plan and Littleton is embarking on the initial processes of putting one together um following uh best practices from other towns and also um following all the requisite guidance um local and state Etc and so I see a
lot of opportunity for us to take advantage of that process uh to sort of capitalize on that momentum um and to make sure some of the things that we're you know that we're working into the shake Lane school project are also reflected in that plan and vice versa I think it could be a really nice
opportunity to showcase how some of the perhaps more theoret theoretical sort of aspirational aspects of that plan can actually be put into practice um and so I think that that's one uh area uh which we could certainly talk a little bit more about um we've also been with
Connor actually um working on uh uptake of electric vehicles in Littleton what kind of infrastructure um is necessary to ensure uh increased uptake of electric vehicles um and so I think that's also another area of intersection
um if I see that you know EV ready um is one of the elements uh of the shakan project so again I think that's a really great opportunity um for uh increasing in sort of a increasing the mo um momentum around that um and then one
other perhaps it's a little tangential but is also the hazard mitigation plan uh that Littleton is putting together as well um that is really uh quite broad ranging in terms of the proposed actions but uh many of them really obviously relate to sustainability so something
also that I think um could be of interest but the way I see it this is all sort of culminating in in momentum in the right direction um and so I'm just here to try to bridge a little bit to the extent that I can um some of the work that we're doing on the
sustainability committee side uh for Littleton generally um and certainly happy to answer whatever questions I can and and those that I can't I'll certainly refer to my other uh team members um and we can get back to you uh at a later date as well he thank you so
much and thank you for being here um I think I saw Eric's hand first yeah I Charlotte that's exciting news to hear that you're working on on the climate action plan I'm wondering if you could speak to kind of the General timing or some of the the the overarching um um
kind of key elements of the plan perhaps now it's not the time or place but um having a better understanding of uh of what those may be uh will certainly help us uh align the project with those goals I imagine this is one of the the larger
projects going on and so uh it seems like a great opportunity to uh to really set this as an example piece to to demonstrate the commitment um um of that plan and start absolutely thank you I can maybe provide
the sort of 20 second response to that and then we can certainly take that to another conversation but it is a little bit of a lengthy process uh to get to the end end state of the climate action plan we're talking at least sort of 18 months maybe even two years it consists
of uh research and Analysis um Community engagement and then actually writing and ratifying the the cap um and includes things like Mobility Transportation um analysis of the Town Fleet including school buses um energy Waste Management
uh climate and sustainable education so there are a lot of different pieces um of the cap that I think could could intersect nicely but I'm very happy to share just more information we are at the very early stages of that um and we actually share a resource with a couple of other towns a sustainability director
um who's going to be helping us uh to develop that as well it's great that's good timing it sounds like all right Diane I see Diane Dickerson yeah I'll add a little bit about the um climate action plan um to
be honest we're just starting down that road um we um we are sharing a resource across four other towns and um he's actually on the call tonight but we just met her on uh Monday so it's just just
beginning um I think one of one of the things along these lines um I'll reate a lot of what Charlotte said um but um one of the things that I had been looking at was even though Littleton is not a
specialized opin stretch code U Community um if there is the um I think it will be all cost wise because you know if it's if it's not significant um like what is it we can go as green as
our green money will take us so um so basically um kind of a comparison of what it might be to follow um the couple of different options um for the super stretch code um even though the community is not that it would seem to
me that we could probably follow those um um go in that direction that's actually an excellent SE way into our next point so if anybody uh wants to say anything more right now we can otherwise I can move
on all right so uh the msba provides some opportunities for additional funding and part of that is following the guidelines of the opt-in code even if you're not an opin Community uh there are two categories for looking at
materials and air quality you can get an additional 1% reimbursement and looking at reducing energy use you can get another 3% reimbursement and then uh a a small percentage of this there may be a possibility of getting incentives
through federal and state um we we'll talk more about that later but uh we're not considering that to be a a shoe in for so first the easy part the the lwh hanging fruit is this additional 1% this
is basically this is lead points and we have to get at least three points out of all these categories at a bare minimum and in order to get the 1% reimbursement we need two more points so five points
total and these are all relatively simple things to do a lot of them are things that we as Architects just do as our best practices and so we anticipate easily getting this 1% reimbursement and it would not uh incur any additional
cost to the project so we'll just we'll go ahead and and get this additional 1% any comments on this low meeting materials talking like flooring like VCT versus molum that kind of stuff that's exactly right okay yep
yep okay all right so now uh things get a little bit more complex and I am going to pass it over to Eric to get into the next few slides sure again um um what we want to do here is is just kind of help
you understand some of the the um the the uh lingo that we'll be using and you'll see us asking us to set targets towards um and one of those is is the eui of a building which is the energy
use intensity um and basically what that is is is simply how much uh how much energy does the building consume less prod anything produced by Renewables over the square footage gives you this
eui value uh in kbtu per square foot per year basically it's a measure of the performance of of your building and uh what we uh suggest is teams um set a Target uh early in the design um such
that the design team has an understanding of of what they're designing towards um we will be doing some energy modeling which is consu computer simulation of building performance which will help us um actually understand what
the eui will be based on uh different design configurations more aggressive envelope different HVAC systems um you know lower uh lower flow fixtures all of those those design considerations that
may go into the building all have an impact on the eui and so we want to just make sure everyone understands that terminology and um is starting to think about okay how aggressive do we want to
be at this school so setting an eui Target right this is this is all conceptual at this point right because we don't have any uh design or modeling complete but you know a standard existing School may be around
eui of 75 right H but now with the more aggressive energy code in Massachusetts even just that that uh that stretch code right it's going to drive that eui number down significantly on the left
with all the bulleted lists you can see uh colorcoded to relative impact of uh of of um uh energy uh reduction uh are some of the strategies that we could use to help
drive down the eui of a building now you'll see that um as as um M Mary Lee said that the Baseline uh msba requirement is to meet that Massachusetts stretch code
requirement but there is that additional 3% reimbursement for being more aggressive there are some particular requirements to to meeting that optin that we will talk talk about in a moment uh but what will what you see is that
meeting those more aggressive criteria will drop the eui of the building to around that 25 number Target that's that's in line with a lot of the the the uh msba school projects that are uh in
design or or um in operation new schools in operation now uh so certainly an achieve able Target um you know in in communities that may um be eligible for the massive utility incentives which uh
Littleton is not because it's immun uh they require an eui of 25 to participate in their more most aggressive uh utility incentive program so again an achievable standard it does take work uh but um certainly something
that a project a well-designed project can achieve now to drive down below that uh really um you know the building will consume energy at this point right so to drive below that would uh you'd have to
offset that energy uh consumed in the building and that would be through renewable energy strategies as as already mentioned in the past there are some some baseline requirements already for the the PV ready the having the
capacity to put PV on the building um if we go to the opt-in route there's there is the potential for it to be required under certain criteria and we're going to talk about that in a in a little bit but this is just helping you understand
the the the terminology and some of those those large levers that we can pull to help uh reduce the energy consumption of this building Diane I see your hand yeah um actually um you mentioned
Mass Save yeah um we have been able to get some Mass Save in incentives in town even though we're IM mun so that may be something that we should look into perhaps so my hunch and we can certainly
explore this my hunch is um I believe you have end grid for gas right yes yes naal grid yes so the National Grid um they they participate in the Mass Save program program um and
so the through that linkage uh previously you could uh still get Mass Save utility incentives however I think in the last six months a year the
program has changed such that they do not incentivize any gas equipment if you have gas on a project you can't you're not eligible for Mass saave the the real push is Electrify everything so that
perhaps in the past that was the case moving forward um that there that isn't is no longer the case that may that may be the case I know there have been some changes yeah all right I am going to pause here
for a second H we want to make sure that everybody uh understands eui because that's really going to contribute to our discussion that we're moving into next uh Mark Eric great to see you again thanks for good to see you thanks for all that
information I just want to say quickly eui just so uh it might be a little simpler understanding is like the MPG for your car right miles per gallon the efficiency of you know how you can make your car get better with use of gasoline that's that's kind of think about that when you think about eui yeah and
similarly you know you can have a predicted eui number and you your actual mile may vary depending on how you actually operate the building right exactly yeah that's a good analogy I like it any other questions before we we
shift on yeah my my my only question is how much money do you have to spend to get this 3% reimbursement well that's good we're gonna talk about that as we move forward part of part of what we owe you in in uh in this phase is is an
assessment that will help you realize the all-in cost of of different design configurations particularly the HVAC system Options under consideration so uh stay tuned for more on that in a moment all righty that's a pretty good segue I
think into the the next slides so now I will pass it over to Matt to guide us through these yeah so I think a lot of what um I think this slide is a lot of what has already sort of been touched on
um basically you know in an Ideal World we would I think everyone would go for the additional 3% that's extra money um back to the back to the town with the obvious caveat to Steve's point that everyone asks is okay how much is how
much does it take to get there um similar to a car I mean it's very easy to buy a very cheap cheaply made car with a crappy engine um and it costs a little more to get one that is uh you know very fuel efficient so basically if you're talking about 3% reimbursement
we're talking exactly what you're talking di in with that optin specialized stretch code so you would be meeting that um is is effectively the additional work being done to get that 3% it's going from stretch code which is a requirement for the town and for the
MBA um up to the opt-in code and there's a couple ways that the codee's written that would allow us to get there um basically kind of boils down to one option is really an all electric option where you would Electrify the building
as as Eric mentioned that's really largely the the overarching trend uh and I think toh Charlotte's Point earlier about you know kind of following the guidance from other towns in the state
other communities that is that would be doing that would be the electrification um option um for people who who don't know what I'm talking about with that that's just taking you you're removing any natural
gas or other fossil fuels as your fuel source for the building and you're basically just plugging your building heating Source into into the electric grid um that may be advantageous for other reasons in terms of uh the
electric rate for the town being quite low uh compared to uh other municipalities and other um towns using different energy resources um but if that really wasn't
desired um by this committee here and by the community as a whole it is possible to to get the optin specialized stretch code and and meet those requirements with um a natural gas um fuel mix in the
building uh there's that's where you run into some of those EXT requirements that uh some of the other presenters have alluded to regarding um actually needing to include not just PV ready but actually
paying for PV to be on the building and gener generating um Power there uh Additionally you have to wire the building and have the buildings you effectively have to have a plan set in place such that you will be
able to Electrify the the building in the future um so 20 years down the line um if sentiments in in the town have changed or um the requirements of the state maybe have changed uh it's it's basically trying to
make it an easier transition uh down the road if if the the Mandate effectively was to get off of fossil fuels and and transition to an all electric option um there's a lot going on there
is there any specific questions on that yeah it sounds like the Stacked against us on this one go ahead Diane I'm sorry what was that I said I I think the this sounds like the deck is
stacked against us on this one if uh we wanted to have a gas uh option um we're not going to be uh in a good place on this
reimbursement I guess I'd ask what you I ask you to elaborate a little bit more on that Steve what you mean just so that I I understand your your concern and way you're come from and maybe we can discuss that further I don't want to get into it now but it just seems that this uh these
mandates are forcing us towards all all electric I mean it's yeah I won't lie it's definitely um you know it's the overall trend for a reason I mean it it's a lot of it has to do with uh code pressure that has been
coming down from the state and there's there's directives that are trying to push people that way um I know get it also I'm not in favor of it so sure that's my two cents worth sure and they are changing the
code I know they are I know they are it's it's too restrictive that's why they're looking at it it's very restrictive they just recently uh in the last month uh issued some updates that
do that do give a little bit of of of flexibility uh Within some of the initially um stated opt-in requirements however it hasn't changed uh the overall direction um pushing for
electrification um technology has has increased such that um we have um good uh uh equipment that can meet the heating needs um in our climate um and
um so there it's certainly feasible to to build a successful all electric school and uh the the code is uh is moving in that direction I know Sayan you have your hand
up yeah I was just wondering um if if it's probably not time for it in this discussion but have there been comparisons of if you're building it all electric this this is the cost if you're doing it mixed fuel and have to do the additions of wiring for electrification
and the additional um installations of equipment on site for renewable energy how the costs canare they're having to this point but there will be Steve mner Matt can you um I assume when
you're talking about this needs to be ready for installing electrical equipment that basically means the service is going to be upsized on a gas system and you have to have all the distribution
panels within the school sort of ready for let's say HVAC equipment that would be mean you're primarily talking the cost is going to come in the service primary so yeah it's yes you're effectively upsizing your electric for
for future um trying to Future proof it for um upcoming uh higher electric loads because of the electric heating Source anticipated in the
future and and one other little thing um I think there had been some discussions maybe we'll get to it further in here but um a gas powerered electric uh a gas powered emergency
generator whether it's diesel or natural gas we're not talking about that equipment no that's just backup so that would be that would still be if we had one of those in this project and all the other systems were electric we'd still be in the all electric world that's is
correct an important distinction there so on the the backup for the Electric System having a natural gas or or diesel generator would still qualify the building being defined as all electric under the code um I only bring this up because there
was some discussion I think in some previous talks with some individuals regarding natural gas boiler backup for the building um that's a distinction and in that's instance we would have to
pursue the mixed fuel option go ahead Mark just real quick folks time check is now 7:38 thank you Mark thanks Mark thanks Mark so uh we'll carry on sure so
this this dovetails right into to what we were just talking about which I think you know it's important to everyone right it's everyone we all have wallets um have bills to pay so as as part of the the work here that we're going to be
doing in the early design um really following this meeting and and hopefully presenting at at at a later meeting um will be an analysis of some suggested uh
hbac systems that will effectively quantify all the things that we're talking about here and is really um probably going to be the primary driver for being honest of of you know a decision um on the on the part of the
Town um it's going to be looking at The Upfront costs operating costs replacement costs over 50y year anticipated life of of these systems uh and the building as a
whole and we'll be comparing that to to a like a code compliant Baseline system and have a have a report that will be issued indicating you know what systems
effectively have a have a good payback return on on investment um what has the best eui in terms of energy performance and what really makes dollars and sense logic so that being said these are we
have really three options currently but including a fourth one here on this slide and we'd like to get some feedback from from the committee here um basically my what I what what I'm looking for uh as a take away from this
is a blessing of of these options to be studied so without really get I mean I I could spend two hours talking about this but in the sake of time we're gonna talk at a very high level and if anyone has specific questions feel free to jump in
and and ask but basically there's the first option is probably the most different from the others um it's a air source heat pump system it's called vrf basically what happens is you have refrigerant flowing through the building
um to air conditioners effectively in each Zone and they also do heating and there's a bank of condensing units uh with coils and fans on the roof and the refrigerant going between the two um
carries the heat and cool throughout the building to to each space and rejects the heat into the exterior in the summertime and pulls the heat from the exterior and pumps it into the school in the winter time um I'm not going to go through
every single one of these these line items here but basically the bottom line is that that can't achieve the 3% from the msba um one thing to to note about that really in comparison to the other
systems and something to be talked about with anyone who's like maintenance staff for for the district uh would be it this system sort of has a more distributed nature of of Maintenance so there's you
kind of want to think of it as there's many smaller individual components so there's components in every space that will require maintenance there will be filters that will need to be changed they're in classrooms some school districts don't like that um some of them say we're not
used to it we don't want to to to be entering classrooms to do maintenance some of them like that okay well these are sort of modular pieces so I can have a bunch in attic stock and if something goes it's just one piece
getting plug inpl a little bit more than some of the others um one other caveat I'll add to option one is it is in a sense locks you into a manufacturer which some districts don't like some do
like they you have a single Source when something goes wrong um but you're locked into that Source in a sense in that you're going to buy the system from one manufacturer and that's manufacturer a five years down the road something
breaks you you can't go to manufacturer B and plug it into the system it needs to all speak the same language so um that's just the reality of option one option two and three are very similar they're effectively the same
system the only thing that is different is the source of heat that is being used for the heat pump system so in option two uh very similar to option one there's some equipment that's going to
be on the roof it's going to have some coils and fans and that's going to be pulling heat from the exterior in the winter time and rejecting heat from the building to the exterior in the summer time and option three you instead of
having that Outdoor Equipment would be doing what sort of a misnomer but called geothermal um you have well Fields drilled um substantial cost um also
substantial Energy savings by comparison and all that will be borne out as part of the life cycle and we'll show the comparison of these systems um I will say if there's any concerns about site noise or or Neighbors being
affected option three does have the lowest um sight sound just because there's no exterior fans really running uh rejecting and pulling that heat um from the the ambient temperatures it's all hydronic there's pumps running uh
down into uh the ground Wells with that so there's an advantage there um both two and three have I mean all these options have are are relatively quiet two and three are quieter than option one um
just because how we are introducing the air into each space it's going to be at a very low velocity there's no fans in the classrooms and offices the way that there are in option one um because of that the maintenance is also much more
centralized by comparison to op option one you effectively have all your heating cooling being done um from heat pump units either on the roof or or in a mechanical room so there's sort of a sole source there uh and you don't have
to really go into classrooms and interrupt kind of building occupants maybe in a way that you may be liable to do with option one [Music] um as a source of just reference I would
say option one without having done the analysis option one is likely the lowest upfront cost of the three um but the numbers we've been seeing come in it's not generally substantially so um option
two is probably the option we are seeing selected most frequently as of very recent um we have done all three of these options in schools recently our firm has done a lot of schools I would
say option two is probably the most common option three is probably a bit more of a reach um partly to do with there it was being very popular for a little while with
um inflation reduction act dollars being accounted for um we can talk a little bit more about how much that wants to be looked at um I think there's some very serious reality that that language in and
program may be um not something we want to count on strongly but if that's you know that's the feedback we want to hear from from the community so I I think uh my my take on the whole thing Matt is the um the
community needs to vote on this to uh advance the project and the appetite is going to be for the lowest Pro possible price I I don't like option one I like option two option three I
used at the uh um soci security building up in uh wherever it was but uh that's more
aspirational um we need to focus on you know keeping the cost down thanks um and thanks for the really clear presentation of these options um along a similar line I'm wondering if there is a different metric that you're
perhaps familiar with using around cost um more of a cost Effectiveness metric it seems like the at least for instance uh amortising or accounting for the replacement cost um and sort of uh building in some of
those uh energy recovery costs uh noting you know the difference here in the potential eui uh with option three having the lowest so again if we're looking at trying to make an informed decision as a community I think it would be
really helpful to present those numbers in a way that we can really interpret not just what those upfront costs are but what we're really looking at ultimately paying over the lifetime of of the school I agree with that Charlotte but you know nobody's really
going to take that into account when they uh go into that uh tax calculator they're not going to say oh great we're going to save uh X number of dollars 20 years from now so I think we have to look at the
reality of making this an affordable project and I de I think yeah definitely something we talk about a lot in the sustainability committee that trying to marry perhaps both of those to the extent that we can reducing The Upfront
cost the the the um sticker shock um of the project but yeah I think maybe also if there's a way of of illustrating these costs um so they can be interpreted as best as possible but yeah I agree
absolutely it's going to be um that price tag that people are going to be most focused on 100% so is the is the option two and it's estimated to be about 2.4 million more so a couple of
questions what option did we carry in the initial when we came up with the initial tag of the project originally was 104 million now it's down to 98 something million what option was
carried in those plans and the second part of that question is and I like option two as well I mean I I don't have a problem going o electric we want to go as green as possible within the budget we've said that a number of times um if option two is an additional roughly
2.5 million additional um does this get us to qualify for the three % additional funding from msba yes and so with does a 3% additional funding from msba offset the
2.4 million it likely would um but I think what's relevant there as well though is that option one would achieve that 3% as well so that's not really a a APT comparison um because you're not
doing that extra .4 to achieve the 3% it's there there would be other reasons and there would probably be due to operational costs largely okay which would be borne out in the and and just overall system and maintenance preference is usually what it comes down
to more than anything um but that would be indicated in in the results of the life cycle analysis Mary Lee on the when you weren't you saying that the option two was in the original estimate yeah so to
answer your first question option two was carried as the basis of design so this 2.4 was already baked into the the whatever the final number ended up being I don't recall and so then option one would be 2.4 less than that although for
what Matt said since November of 2024 these numbers are maybe coming in a little bit closer to each other than they had been is that did I get that right yeah I mean it's that I say that based on other projects that I've seen
recently so that's more of a general OB observed Trend but that would be born out in in CEST meeting all right so Somebody explain to me a little bit more about the maintenance and operation we need they say is distributed versus more
centralized what explain just a little bit more folks 10 minutes 10 minutes hey Steve I think I think we used option two on the line library in the um Senior
Center yeah okay so I think uh I think that's kind of the uh that would be my recommendation good feedback Steve thank you for that um but there would be an option to save money if we didn't want
to go all electric obviously and take option to so even though it's in the estimate now yeah yes okay so there's ve there yeah if we wanted to so sorry Steve Mark do you want me to
answer your question here still yeah and if we don't have time maybe you can just uh I can take it offline with you I can I'm happy to write an email and distribute it to the group yeah maybe yeah do it that way I think instead I don't want to waste the time now because yeah all right I will do that that's no
problem I'm the one that manages the maintenance so I want to make sure I understand what it is sure and just to not to rush through the last option here but or one that I'm I'm sort of ask I guess my ask to the group is you know we've talked about wanting
to align it sounds like there's a there's a general um sustainability committee intent to align with overall Trends and and other state Trends terms of electrification is do do we want to
entertain the mixed fuel option should we study the mixed fuel option in terms of having natural gas or is that something that we just do not feel is is appropriate for for the community let let me ask another question on the all
electric option does that mean we don't bring natural gas into the building at all so it's not there for kitchen appliances and cook stoves and uh tilt kettles and things like that or those do those all become all
electric as well my understanding is that is correct and Studio G green engineer correct me if that's wrong but I believe you are right when you say that yeah I agree yes Diane so are there so my other
question is um and I'm sure it's been thought of we live in New England we get to days where it's minus5 degrees and five degrees and for prolonged days at a time um the heat
pumps with the VAV or or whatever did are they able to meet the demand of a five degree day for a week yes so for for five degree definitely I mean five degree is very likely going to be our design condition um and in terms
of what the code requires us to meet in terms of weather data locally um it's very common question that's asked often these are rated down to to zero degrees and and even lower on some of them with the air source option we uh we would
suggest having and we'll price in our in our life cycle analysis having uh like an electric boiler for backup exclusively effectively it's not particularly efficient but it is still
electric and would um basically help you in a in a sort of a freeze protection sort of situation if you ever um lost multiple modules from your heat pump uh or it was just really you
know minus 10 or something like that and you just had to to limp through for for a day or two um that would assist in that as part of the design so you talking like a high high efficiency boiler that's tucked away in the
basement in a utility room that's a backup to this system system yeah back up and and supplementing on a day maybe when it was was just really really really cold outside um okay talk I just want to make the the note that it's an it's an
electric piece of equipment it's not because you mentioned high efficienc it's it's electric it's not gas okay so we have H I think just one more question and then we want to talk just very briefly about uh a little bit more funding and then what's coming after so
Diane you have your hand up just a quick comment um someone asked if if um that also meant no gas and kitchens and stuff I believe that is the case from everything I've read um but the um the new Senior Center is all
electric and it's a completely electric kitchen operation all commercial kitchen type design as well that's correct yeah all right thank you uh Eric aside from the fact that the they don't
cook anything at the senior center well I'll just we do a lot of cooking at the schools so Steve we have a a a kitchen consultant who can really talk you and your staff through all of the options
available and answer any questions or concerns they might have about making the switch to Electric if that's what decided I don't have I don't have a problem with it I just you know want to make sure we understand what we're getting ourselves into uh look I'm
I'm the first one to be out there saying we should go as green as and I've said this before go as green as possible go all electric if we can within the budget I'm all for it great great so running low on time here so this is quick right we we
certainly want to take advantage of any available incentive dollars that are outside of the MSB ba process for that um there there are some available uh State incentives depending on the HVAC equipment SEL
selected um that we can take advantage of uh as Matt mentioned there there uh were uh quite favorable incentives that were available through the inflation reduction act the IRA um that
at given the current state of affairs um are no longer um can be counted on um we we we don't we can't read the future um they are still passed by Congress and and should have to be
cancelled by Congress but that's not exactly what's happening at the current state so we have to be cautious and and we will be uh but we'll continue to explore the potential incentive options
available um uh for the project thank you all right so some of these incent some of these incentives we wouldn't apply till later once the building gets started anyway is that correct correct most are most pay out um post right
after they're all installed and operational okay so we're talking three or four years away so environment then all right thank you all so much everybody this was a really excellent conversation uh the next SBC meeting is
March 19th I'm sure you'll all be thinking about this digesting it speaking to one another and so on March 19th we'll be doing a check-in with you to see if you have any preliminary preferences or thoughts on how we want to proceed then we'll have the second Workshop where we'll have the life cycle
cost analysis information there and then we can really have all the information that we have in order to make a final decision all right any other last minute questions comments all right if not thank you
everyone for attending thank you very much thank you and uh we'll see everybody at a later date thank you