I think we can start. This is um the Littleton Zoning Board of Appeals. We're in room 103 at 37 Shadic Street, Littleton, Mass. It's uh October 16th at 7 o'clock p.m. I'm Cheryl Gold, chair. This is uh Cheryl Haulinger, vice chair.
Uh this is John Su, clerk. And then we have Rod Stewart and David Outman. And the first order of business, if you don't mind, since I have a couple of selectmen in the room, is we're going to ask the admin to please write a letter to your board asking if you would
elevate alternate David Outman to full member status since we are short one member and it's been our tradition to take the alternate up from the alternate seat. Then we can get more alternates. >> He's already trained. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. And we'll have the admin write you a letter
to remind you. Thank you. Um, first item on the agenda is 7 o'clock uh review of the minutes. Has everybody had a chance to read them over and review them? >> Yeah, I have one sm small change on the second page. >> Um, it says Cali Hollner indicated that
other houses are close to the road. It is a very small house and she believes the petition should be granted. So I want it needs an end. >> Okay. And it's she believes or she
thought I I can't just make a statement that way. She >> recommends the petition should >> recommends is fine. We should it's whatever. >> Okay. >> But it's need something more. I also note that in the
paragraph right before deliberations, the last sentence at the top of the page there uh of that paragraph says, "Chair Gold stated that the petitioner's proposal won't be a deriggation from the neighborhood or the zoning bylaw." And I just think that should go under
deliberations. I'm not sure that's where I said it is wrong, but I think it should have been under deliberations. So, if you could move that sentence, that would be more accurate on the minutes. >> And I have a couple things on page one. >> Go ahead. >> In the top, absent John Field member. He's not not a member anymore, is he?
>> I think he was on the date that this is noted as an absence. I think he's since >> Did he ever get reappointed and sworn in? >> No, but he was holding over too. And so, we checked with him that he wasn't going to ask to be reappointed. Okay. In case the mail also missed him. >> Okay. In the second one under 710, the
second paragraph, uh, is Allison Fortune the only the homeowner or were both the homeowner? >> I looked that up when I did the decision and they were both the homeowners. >> Then then that should be homeowners plural. >> Allison had bought the house, which is
why the deed was in her name, but then she got married and included her. >> No, I just be if there was both, it should just be homeowners, not homeowner. >> Minor thing. And uh then I'll take a motion to approve the minutes as amended. >> Make a motion to approve minutes as
amended. >> Cheryl and second, please. >> Rod seconds. All those in favor? Rod. >> I. >> Cheryl. >> I. >> John. >> I. >> David. >> I. >> I. >> Are we going to do roll call now? >> Uh, no. I just want her I I don't think
she can always tell whose voice it is on the tape. And >> Okay. >> Lucy has been typing the minutes from the tape. So, I told her I'd try a little harder to identify people. Okay. Um, the next item on the Gen agenda is members comments. We do have a hearing
scheduled for 7:10. I can't start it early because it's been noticed for 7:10 in case someone else is planning on coming. So, any member comments this week? Have >> you guys noticed the plantings in town? The garden club has done an astounding job this year and I believe the
selectman should recognize that as a select board. >> I'm not I'm not even in the garden club. I must admit my sister is president. But haven't they been beautiful this summer. >> The canas that the really tall flowers are called canas. >> Yeah. Like this.
>> We can talk about anything other than what we're going to talk about. So I I wanted to point that out and suggest letman recognize what an outstanding job the garden club has done this year. >> Noted
>> noted remembered >> whether I remembered announcement >> I can only >> it'll be on our minutes if you want to look it up. I hear that they also are planning a very special meeting with a particularly wonderful presenter that they want to
invite the town to attend. So I think they may be coming before you to to talk about that. Um so and to get the word out. We are also supposed to uh review mail received by the board and I don't
believe there is any this week. Did anybody Nope. >> Yeah. anything and nobody has anything else to add. >> We don't have boy scouts here. >> I know we'll twiddle our thumbs for four minutes. We did have a delightful meeting last week where the applicant was a co- boy scout leader. So, he
brought his boy and another boy in to watch the meeting because they're working on their civics badge. >> Citizens. >> Citizens. >> I thought that was great a great time and a great experience for the boys, >> especially since we were able to approve it.
[Applause] You guys can talk. >> Want to talk about the Patriots? >> You can talk about the Patriots. >> They're tied for first in the division. >> Are they doing well? >> They're tied for first in the division. >> Yeah. >> Are they really? Actually, they're in
first because they're tied with the team, but they beat the team. >> Beat the Bills. >> Bills. Yeah, >> that's terrific. >> They should have one more win. That Steelers game was terrible. >> Oh, the ball five times. You can't expect to win.
I'm going to give it one more minute and then I'm going to call the hearing because we have a few little administrative details before we start the presentation anyway. So that'll lead up the other minute and that way people won't sit around doing nothing. You're probably on the clock. >> Well, we have
>> No, he gets all the overtime for free. >> Salary. >> That's Yeah, I used to have jobs just like that. >> I had all the time I wanted. >> That's Adrien Stson. Anyone want to see pictures of my granddaughter? >> No, not at the meeting. >> Congratulations.
>> 7:08. So, I'm going to open I'm going to open the hearing. We won't start the hearing until we do the administrative stuff. Okay. >> Uh the meeting is supposed to be opened at 7:10 p.m. It's 7:08. So, I'm just going to call the case. The case is number 25-980
87 Tahadawan Road. Uh the petitioner Habitat for Humanity seeks a variance pursuant to uh section 17326A the table of use regulation schedule to construct a two family dwelling and other such business as may properly come
before the board. Um I am a direct butter to this application and so madame vice chair I need to stand down and give you my position. You you need to chair the meeting. However, I don't need to leave the room because I'm allowed to
speak as an auterate. >> Oh, great. And so, I need to appoint you as an alternate to the hearing. >> Um, we have to wait a couple more minutes. We really aren't allowed to start early. One more.
>> I think she just ran because I offered pictures of my granddaughter. >> I've only shown him to you once. >> All right. >> Be careful. I have thousands of pictures of granddaughters. >> So do I. And she's only 16 months old.
Graham says she's a little hair. >> She's a lot of fun. >> And she has me wrapped around her little finger, which is just where I want to be. >> Okay. Come on. >> There we go. >> All right. >> Welcome. Would you introduce yourself,
please? Absolutely. Start with your name. >> Yes. I'm So, I'm John Pliffka. I'm from Mccardi Engineering. I'm here tonight representing the applicant Habitat for Humanity. As mentioned before, we're applying for a variance to construct a duplex at 87 D Oan Road. Um, just to
give a brief history of this property, it was actually acquired by Habitat for being the successful bidder in a request for a proposal RFP issued by the town to construct a duplex at the property. So although the duplex isn't an allowed
right by use or use by right in the R zoning district, um we in order to fulfill the RFP that was approved by the town at the town meeting, we're required to come in front of this board for a variance to construct this duplex. Um
that's that's my brief overview, but um it's a two family house. Uh, Habitat's a nonprofit organization that's trying to provide affordable housing in town and uh, this property was selected. So, it's our position that this property was
always intended to be a duplex and this is more of a we kind of thought that this was already ironed out at the time of the so we're here now in front of you requesting the variance to construct the duplex.
Did you want to walk us through the plans? >> Sure, I can walk you through it. >> Walk us through. >> So, it's a like I said, it's a two family. Uh the unit on the right here is approximately
1,000 square ft, twobedroom. Uh the other unit is a threebedroom uh with a second floor. So, that one's not um handicap accessible. And how many square feet is the >> That one's approximately 1,200.
So we're actively going through the conservation approval for this. We filed a notice of intent due to uh some adjacent wetlands and last night we had a meeting or we had a sitewalk with the commission members and we're scheduled to be on
next week for that continued hearing. The property is going to be serviced by town water and an on-site septic system proposed a presby system and whereas mitigation for the project we when we
were walking the site last night um this used to be a field at one point. So there was actually only one tree within 100 ft of the wetland that's going to have to come down. And so we're we're proposing I think 10 trees along the
back side of it as screening for the butter um the budding properties. So we're significantly mitigating that that one tree removal. There's a lot of invasive species on site. Um
and we're also proposing a dry well to infiltrate the rooftop and u provide water quality for that rooftop. So, that's my brief overview, but I'd be happy to answer any specific questions you might have.
>> David, do you want to start us off? >> Uh, I just just to clarify um other than the fact that duplexes are not uh an allowed use under the residence
um zone zoned area. Everything else about the proposal is conforming. >> That's correct. We're not requesting any dimensional relief. This is just solely for the the duplex aspect. >> Thank you. >> All right. >> Yeah.
>> So, you mentioned you thought that um why did you why does Habitat think they were already allowed to build a duplex? >> So, there was a request for proposal. I have a copy here that I'd be happy to hand to you, but within that was issued
by the affordable housing trust in Littleton um which explicitly states that a two units are supposed to be built on this property. So, we don't have enough lot area to create a subdivision or an ANR lot to create that secondary lot. So, the only avenue of us
creating two units here is a duplex. And with that said, um you know, the affordable housing trust created this parcel um in the effort to provide affordable housing and conservation seeing as there
is some uh restricted areas or you know regulated areas under the uh Massachusetts wetland protection act and the downton bylaws. So >> yeah, that's it. What's the total square footage of the lot?
>> Of the lot, it's 68,000 square feet. A little over an acre and a half. >> Okay. And are these units to be sold? >> They are. So, Habitat sells them to um qualified candidates.
>> Okay. So, for uh affordable housing. >> Yes. >> So, is there some kind of deed restriction so prevent somebody from buying it low and selling high? Yes, it is uh to be affordable in perpetuity. >> My only question of what avenues have you considered that would fit our zoning
bylaws? >> I mean, so this is our preferred alternative. We could come in with an ADU. Um that's not our, you know, first choice, but we're we're only talking probably 100 square feet
difference uh to get under the the ADU requirements. And what we're proposing here, >> I'm sorry for the newbie. Can you ADU? >> Oh, yeah. Accessory dwelling unit. Um, >> thank you. >> They're allowed by right in Littleton and up to, I believe, 1,200 ft. So, I
think that you would fit quite nicely under that. >> I might have met We're a little bit over that. I know we talked about Did my math not add up? We're we're slightly over it by 100 square feet. >> I think the difference between the state requirement and the town requirement.
Yes, the state requires 900. >> The town's larger. >> The town's larger. >> Allows it, >> but it'll be under two owners, too. Not the accessory dwelling under the same ownership. >> I know. I'm asking what he considered that could be fit into our zoning bylaws. >> Right. And we did try to consider the
ANR lot creating that new lot, but we don't have the area for it. So, in an effort to reduce the impact to the wetland area, we feel that the the duplexes are our best alternative. Um, we have a lot of people in the room,
so I'm going to start with um, neighbors and butters. Would anyone like to speak? >> I would definitely like to speak. >> Could you step back? >> Thank you. >> Sorry, come up. Come up. >> I don't really want to speak, but I will
come speak. The last time I was before the zoning board was actually I'm Marielleen Lions, 79 Tatawan Road. So, I am the closest, most direct abuter to this project. Um, the last time I came for the zoning board was probably 1999 when I we requested we built an in-law
apartment, so an accessor accessory dwelling unit for my mother to provide affordable housing. So, I'm definitely I understand the struggles with affordable housing. Um, and this project obviously we've been watching very closely, my husband and I, who's traveling this
week, so he couldn't be here. Uh, but I if you'll indulge me a few minutes, I do have a little bit more background information, I guess, because I've been following this closely for the last uh five years since we passed this at town meeting. Um, if that's okay. I I will
promise to be try to be brief but I did I've been keeping a file over the years because obviously we are uh generally I'm usually I think we're uh usually I'm my our house is actually
shown closer to to the um on their the plans that they've provided but um where they're talking about the septic is basically like feet from our front yards our front door. So, it's obviously been something that we've been watching. We
love the work that Habitat for Humanity does. I guess the thing that has never made sense to me is why this couldn't be just a single family house. So, um I know you said the RFP that you uh provided was accepted by the town. It actually never went back to town meeting
um at least from my notes. But just a little history on this because uh again I know at one point the Brown land was um potentially going to be developed and we were you know they wanted up to 40 units but when they had uh done the
testing there were only actually two units that I think were potential for being being able to have um any kind of a house built on. So it it was you know they they had come to the town or however it happened. The Littleton
Conservation Trust highly recommended that we as you know uh people who live in the town vote to to be able to purchase that land to conserve it and we were very strongly in favor of that. But when I look back at what the conservation trust said about this land,
um it says that it serves as an important open space link between Prrowy Woods conservation land and the Littleton town forest. Additionally, it plays a major role in protecting the headwaters, feeding into Long Lake, preventing pollution, sedimentation, and flooding that helps protects the town's
uh previous investment into preserving Long Lake water quality. And we wholeheartedly agreed. So, we were at this town meeting where we voted to approve the land. And as part of that, um, we didn't expect that there was going to be, sorry, I'm shaking a little
bit. This has been a long time coming. Um, the the town article that we then voted on in October of 2020 mentioned some of those same primary benefits of this land, which is really important to the town. maintain the wildlife corridor, continue the green belt from
town forest and protected properties to Long Lake, protect the water tributaries because in addition to Long Lake, there's a pond on that property which I know that they're, you know, working with conservation trust on um some variance to that. Um but also there was
an option for there was a benefit of providing housing option. So, we were not aware, but the affordable housing trust had put in for the funding source $200,000 to actually have an affordable house as part of this whole land deal
that we were voting on as a town. So, we at that time, my husband um had stood up and talked about the fact that you wanted to know a little bit more about where these actual like prop, you know, potential developmental, you know, development sites were. One of them they
mentioned was abuing our property. the other was on hardwood. So, you know, we mentioned the fact that the septic obviously with the goals that the conservation trust had for preserving Long Lake, it didn't really seem to, you know, logical to put a septic there and
also with all the wetlands on the property. So, uh that did pass. We were happy that that passed. And then we were trying to be engaged with the conservation trust to find out, you know, next steps like where is the slot going to be? So, I have correspondents going back to 2021 where they're going
to walk the site and they're, you know, deciding between the two sites what's a more viable option for for this project. Uh, it turns out that the site was decided to be at Tahadawan and the reason I found that out was because
there were just people in there, you know, walking around and doing the perk test. So at that point I had reached out to um I didn't really know you know I think the conservation trust pointed me towards uh Marin Tulle who I think is here tonight um and she I asked as an
abuter you know like are we getting notified as to what's happening and she told me that they they don't require notification to a butters when they're just doing the testing. She recommended that I start listening to the affordable housing trust meetings, which I did
start listening to to try to just get some some idea of what was going on. You know, I I didn't think it would be that hard to figure out what was happening in town. So, I started listening to those meetings and for for the past three plus
years, I won't bore you, but I had took lots of notes. I had lots of emails going back and forth expressing concern with the Littleton Conservation Trust with uh the the Affordable Housing um committee and Marin. There's a couple of
emails there, but there's just a few uh things that I just wanted to point out from the meeting minutes from the affordable housing meetings. Um, so going back all the way to August of 2022, uh, and this is again available for anyone to see on the website. I just
printed them out because I didn't, you know, I wanted to check my own notes. Um, so back in 2022 of August 2022, they're already talking to um, Carolyn Reed from Habitat for Humanity, giving her updates and next steps. One of the
concerning lines in in these notes is the affordable housing trust engineer asked for information on the amount of bedrooms needed in the house to confirm the septic size is not a constraint. So in my mind that meant they were starting from like how many bedrooms do you want and then we'll work backwards and we
will you know we'll give you however many bedrooms you want which was a little concerning for me. Um they they also um I guess the next the next I just picked out a few of these things because
um I felt like some of these have stuck out in my mind as like as a concern. Um, so one of the notes that I have from the October 17th, 2023 meeting, um, which is 3 years after they bought the land and
and were planning this, um, one of the affordable housing trust members asks what the size of the lot is. At that point, they say it's 1.2 acres. I know you just said 1.5, so I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it said the lot the site perks um because they're asking
why not build it even more. Why not? It says um it suggests that if the septic supports it, consider building a triplex. I I didn't really, you know, a trip so triple, you know, decker or something. Uh the site perks, but when Habitat did a sketch for a four or five
bedroom, it covered most of the site. it's not feasible to build a larger number of bedrooms and increasing the the lot size creates more wetlands. And then I speak up at that meeting. So I'm in the notes just saying as a director of butter just reminding them of what we
voted on in the town. Again, I don't know why the word the duplex uh terminology was ever in that town, you know, uh uh amendment or whatever, you know, the the thing we were voting on
because um I assumed if they were putting that language in there that they had already done this process. This is, I guess, the most confusing part to me is because they've been talking about this for five years and it's basically been presented as a it's a done deal.
So, we'll try to work with you to to make it the best it can be. But, it was I was never aware that it was not already approved to do a two family. So again, I can see a single family, but a two family with five bedrooms could
potentially mean up to 10 people. I guess if you had two two people in each bedroom in the units, whereas a five- bedroomedroom house, you're probably not going to have that many people. So a single family versus a duplex, I feel like, you know, really changes the
dynamic. One more thing I'll pick point out because I I don't want to keep everyone too late, but I feel like this was the most kind of summed up the project. Um, so when the RFP was actually uh you know the the response was due in June of 2024,
uh, Habitat for Humanity was the only respondent. I I was not surprised by that because I didn't think any other developer would take on that land knowing the restrictions of the wetlands, knowing that it's not a zoned for two family, knowing that it's really
kind of a losing proposition. So, their plan was to build two houses. This is per the meeting notes on June 25th, 2024, affordable house trust meetings. Uh cost uh two-bedroom houses at the cost of 518,000. duplex will have a
total of five bedrooms, a two-bedroom unit, and two and threebedroom unit. Habitat is looking for funding for 350,000. That's in addition to the 200,000 that was already passed. In subsequent meetings with the affordable housing trust, they said no to that that they
would will they were willing to put an additional 100,000 into the project. This is a 300. Yeah. So there's the land >> was 200,000 already paid for by the >> Habitat for Humanity is paying.
>> Well, this is their RFP, I guess. I don't know if you have details. This is what they discussed. >> Uh this was what they this was their plan that was put forward to the to the town that it would be a cost of 518,000. So, it was basically discussed that this
was a losing proposition, you know, and again, much needed affordable housing, but they were only going to sell these units for $200,000 each. >> Trying to I'm trying to understand the math here. I'm sorry. Yeah, I don't mean to interrupt your presentation. Please, please, please. But um so
the town 200,000 was the town's >> part the housing authorities part of of Am I getting this right? The housing authority part >> I might be a I was just saying I might be able to shed a little bit of >> I'm sure you will. >> Do you mind Mary Ellen if he if he
interrupts just for a minute? >> Oh no not at all. No, these guys have been involved in the Here, let me move on. >> You have to you have to I I want you I'm I want you to be able to finish >> and I'm I'm almost done. >> I'll be very brief. Matthew House 43 Star Hill. I'm on the affordable housing
trust. Um the affordable housing trust um paid $200,000 as part of the purchase package for the Brown Land, which included grants from the state, money from the town, a whole bunch of funding sources. some of those funding sources were tied to developing affordable
housing, which is the reason why this lot is set aside as an affordable housing. So, that's the where the 200,000 number comes in. Um, when we issued the RFP after Habitat responded, they estimated that they needed an additional 318,000. I can't recall the
exact number to build the house. Um, so this would be in addition to the f the donations and the time the donations of time. So, they're not paying anything for the land. >> That is correct. They didn't pay. They paid a dollar, I think. >> Yeah.
>> And they want us to kick in. They don't want us to kick in anything. >> I really don't think any of this is relevant. >> No, it's not, is it? >> No, it's information, but it's not relevant to our hearing. >> They're not asking the town or anybody to put any money in. They're just saying this is how much we're going to have to fund raise.
>> Okay. Okay. Thank you. I I Rod is correct. >> Okay. >> It's really not relevant. Mary Ellen, come on back up. >> Finish to finish because I know I mean I again I appreciate the good work that Habitat does. I know there's a need for affordable housing. I know that, you
know, I think a a single family house in keeping with the neighborhood would be perfectly appropriate. Um I'm sure I would be getting in there with hammers and nails and helping to build this house. Um I appreciate that the affordable housing trust has been um
within the last year had uh you know listened to our concerns about you know preserving as many trees as possible. Um the Carolyn from um Habitat came and did a walkthrough in August, but again August, this August after discussing
these plans for 5 years and not knowing that they didn't actually have the variance to be able to build this project, a duplex, um she was kind enough to when we expressed concern about exactly how close that is to our house, she was kind enough to move it a
little bit back 12 feet I think it was. So, I mean, I just feel like I I don't really understand why we voted on a duplex, why it has to be a duplex, especially with the fact that we've just passed, you know, the MBTA acts, the the
multi- family, you know, zoning, why this money wouldn't be better used elsewhere where it could help more people and really fit into the zoning in the area rather than a single family neighborhood. >> You're not crazy. >> I feel kind of crazy.
>> No. Um, I actually was the broker for that land. >> Oh. >> And represented the sellers on it. And I'm very aware of how the money was. And at no point during that sale or the town meeting was that parcel mentioned to be a duplex.
>> Right. >> It had absolutely nothing to do with the purchase of that land. The town did not vote on it. There was no commitment at that time by the town to do anything other than purchase a lot for affordable housing trust.
>> Okay. I thought I missed that in the notes. >> You didn't. >> Okay. >> Just so you know. >> All right. >> I was I was very involved in that. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Yeah. All right. Well, thank you very much. That's >> my thoughts. >> I have a couple observations. It could be >> Well, you qu anyone
finish? Yeah. >> Why don't we let the Anybody else wants to talk? Well, did you have a question, Rod? >> More of a comment. I want to say it now so that developers can comment rather than deliberation. You know, there's no problem at all building a single unit. Everything meets
it. Um, to do do a duplex, we have to show hardship, etc. If there were 80,000 square feet, you could say, "Oh, the house they could put two houses on there, but because of topography and so on, it they can't put two structures." So they build one structure. That might
be an argument for us to say it's okay. I'm concerned even though I think it's a fine plan. I'm concerned that the bylaw doesn't allow us to do that. And >> I think we that's this is a conversation for deliberations. >> Well, I I want to do it now in case they
wanted to respond to that. >> We can certainly we can certainly give them that opportunity. >> Um >> and any other neighbors or Go ahead. >> I do have another question. Did you consider a 40B for this? Because then you could do it. We could we couldn't
stop you from doing a duplex. >> We So when we originally started the process, um we're under the impression that the duplex was since it was in the RFP was allowed. So that's what we pursued. When we came out and found that we had to come to this board for
variance, we filed the necessary materials and here we are today. just to comment on, you know, the mention of a single family. It's it's not economically feasible for the lot that we're getting numbers back. We've gotten some quotes. I think the site
work alone is 160,000. And in order for Habitat to award these houses to candidates, it has to it has to make sense. You can't just
have a they I don't know the exact numbers, but essentially Habitat buys it and the family or person awarded has a mortgage that they have to pay and it's a flat rate. It's a reduced rate. And when you
get construction costs rising, no bank is going to issue the funds for a affordable housing unit that costs a lot more than The the reason for the duplex is to offset the cost. >> But
doesn't a duplex when you do a multif family, the site costs are much higher. I mean, you have to have more parking, more wider driveway. You have to have >> it's it's relatively about the same. You need the two houses in order to make it economically feasible.
>> So, did you consider joining a 40B? >> I don't believe that we um explored that. I'm going to go back to neighbors. Amarin, I'll I'll get to you. Thank you. I'm going to go back to neighbors and I
and anyone else in the group would like to speak. >> I'd like to speak as an butter, but I have no problem if Mar wants to present first or go ahead. >> Good evening, Maren Suhill, town planner. Thank you very much for your time on this. Um, as the affordable
housing trust was putting together the RFP um, for this site for for the development of affordable housing, um, part of the thought process was that there's probably five different um, uh, methods that could be used um, to
get this project approved. Um, you suggested a 40B friendly 40B would certainly be one of them. Um but the applicant um Habitat has already filed with the state the lip lau the local
action unit um process so that they've already done the leg work for this to be approved in a manner other than 40B. It still could be done but as you know that would turn it would be back in front of
you of this board um for review and approval. Um, so and it was mentioned that the ADU bylaw could be used. The question becomes, is it proper to sell each unit separately? I know that's not
a question you necessarily. >> Actually, that is a question we asked town council about >> and the answer is no. According to our town council, >> no, the answer is no, unless he has more information on how you want to do that division. There were several qualifiers
in that draft letter that >> okay be that as it may, you're not the town council and neither am I. >> But >> so that was the second method that could be considered to use. Um well the first method that they've applied for is for the variance.
Um well there there's three of them right there. >> That's two. That's 40B and ADU >> and and the variance. Um another one >> another one could be a zero a dimensional variance for a zero lot
line. Um so >> that the lot is only 1.57 acres and >> so dimensional >> you have the authority to um provide a
dimensional variance for um two smaller lots and then you'd have a zero lot line. So you'd have the same layout um and there would just be a lot line between the two units. One of the problems with Yes. One of the problems
with doing >> that single I'm sorry I don't understand this because what you're saying is contrary to all the zoning regulations. I understand I've spent I've been on this board now for >> correct close to 15 years. would be a request for >> never been able to reduce the size of a
lot required >> would be a request for a variance um for reduced lot size. >> You >> I don't think we can legally I I I'll >> that would that would be another method to do this. One of the problems with
asking to do it that way is you end up with two legal lots, each of which then in the future could add accessory dwelling units. So we imagine that you may not want to go that direction,
end up with four units instead of the two that are proposed. >> Okay. Well, I'm not sure you can actually add additional units because you still have to meet the septic requirement, right? If you're barely able to make the septic through special
system meet five bedrooms, you surely aren't going to add, you know, two or four more bedrooms to the >> right. Septic um constraints always have to be taken into account those >> Has the septic system been approved there? >> Septic would be the next step after
>> it hasn't it hasn't been approved yet. >> So, it hasn't been approved yet. It has been filed. Um there was a mention about the presby and that was more on a size savings in the amount of fill that need to be brought in. Um not so much that we couldn't fit it. So we did have to fit
both a presby system and a traditional um which both fit on site. >> Oh yeah that's you're saying that's for like five bedrooms versus adding additional units. >> Correct. That is the septic system and that that's going to fit. >> Right. Fair enough. Yep. the septic we
submitted to the board of health was for five members. >> And I um part of what I was hoping to hear this evening is if you have a prefer if you're not so inclined to um approve this or move to work towards an
approval is what process could you see? Um >> a friendly 40B is certainly within our our purview. I mean, our zoning bylaws, if you look at section 1736B, section 2C, it says that desirable
relief may be granted without substantial detriment to the public good or without nullifying or substantially deriggating from the intent and purpose of this chapter. And a duplex certainly dergates tremendously from the purpose
of this chapter. It really limits our ability. Our the ZPA is very limited as you should know >> in what we can and cannot grant and we have to find we are required to find hardship um due to due to
uh >> soil conditions. >> Sorry, thank you. soil condition, shape or topography of the land or structures especially affecting the land or structures but not generally affecting >> not affecting generally the zoning district. So it's saying that we can't
change the zoning but we can for someone who is in a very small lot we can grant a side setback relief that allows them to build a garage. >> Okay, >> that kind of thing we can do. We can't we can't >> when you um and
>> so a 40B is about the only thing that I see that works. >> Well um so part of the thought process is how does this differ from um uh uh protected use ADU and I say use protected the words protected use ADU
because of the new um state requirements for accessory dwelling units that they be allowed by right. You're not applying for They're not applying for an ADU, though. They're applying for a duplex, which is not allowed by our >> two separate units under one ownership.
>> And I got to tell you, as a real estate broker, I just recently sold a house with an ADU. If I could have divided that house and made two condexes, I would have gotten a lot more money for those sellers. This is not something that we we can our zoning allows
>> and that that's the request for a variance. Correct. You're right. >> Question before you before you leave the chair. >> Uh maybe at the through madam chair through you to the engineer or to
Habitat. If a duplex were to be granted under a zoning variance, how would these units be sold to two different buyers? It still would be a duplex on one lot. And how would you envision that they each unit gets sold to a buyer?
It would be similar to a condo document. >> You would condominiumize it, which which hearkens back to Cheryl's statement just now is that if we can condominiumize multifamilies anywhere, that begs the question of whether every ADU in town
could be condominiumized and sold to two separate owners on every lot that has an ADU. And that's u worrisome to me. The other thing is there are a lot of families in town, even in town here that
need ADUs. Um Susan was Maryanne was talking about building one for her mother. One of the reasons that we passed the ADU bylaw, I was at that town meeting, was to help elders stay in their homes and to or live with their families. And we even allowed them to be
rented so that the families could recoup the cost after the elder passed or or you know, the idea was to be able to age gracefully in your home. Has Habitat for humanity thought of trying to find a family? I mean, I believe I could find a
family in Littleton that could use this property and would as with a house and an ADU that would fall within our zoning bylaws. >> So, I believe that question's already been answered by the engineer. You said the um cost of development um you need
to sell two units in order to make this project go forward, >> but allow this project >> 200,000. I would think there'd be no a number of families that could afford 400,000 for a house with an ADU. >> Wouldn't that make sense?
>> I'm not going to try to answer the um numbers for Habitat. I don't have >> Thank you. >> Don't have those. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Yes, please, Miss Gold. >> Just so speak as in a butter about the whole project. I am in a butter and I'm speaking as in
a butter and not as an as as a chairperson of the zoning board, but I will say my house that I live in is approximately right here. So, uh, from my house, you would see all of the traffic and the entry in the driveway. I also own the house next door, which I
purchased from my mother years ago for her to age in place. And now I'm now that she's moved along, I'm keeping it for myself to age in place. So, I do own the one directly across the street from the driveway, too. And there's a couple of things I'm concerned about in the neighborhood, and that is it's a very,
very wet area, and so I'm concerned about runoff and drainage. Uh, realistically, it's my drainage that's going to run onto this property and not vice versa because I'm upgrading it. But we are very, very wet. And most of what the testing and development has been
done has been this past summer when it's been unusually dry. and high uh low water table. So that's one concern and that begs the question of the septic system having the capacity. You said you have a design and is it already designed
with variances and do you know what those variances are? I'm I have a neck um confusion. I can't turn my head. I'm not trying to be stuck up here. I just can't. Go ahead. So my recollection is that we the septic plan we submitted did
not request any variance from title five. >> Okay. The other thing is as I said the sale of the property how does the sale get accomplished? And I think you answered that it would have to if it was granted as a variance or as a 40B either way I think it would have to be then
condominiumized and sold uh as a condominium. So the underlying land would still be in the condominium ownership. Correct. >> I'm not totally positive on how that would get executed, but I know that areas would be dedicated, you know, as
common space and then there would be we refer to them as condo docks a lot. Um >> two owners. >> Yeah, two owners. Um but I don't know that that's exactly how it would happen. >> We have housing authority members here. you guys know
>> it it's it's not a form of zoning or housing authority. A condominium is a form of ownership. And I think that what the engineers said is accurate that the condominium documents get drafted and a condo association made up of the two owners owns the underlying land. >> Yes. And that would be
>> and then I would be concerned if it's a press about how frequently the pumping and the cleanout and the monitoring of a press happens and who pays for that. uh in this situation, >> right? So in the event that this was compromised, it would be conduct
association or similar entity would have ownership of the septic and you know whether they contribute funds to that each month or how that's structured, I'm not sure. But the septic would be owned as one, right? two owners of the
dwelling units uh each unit and that you know the common areas and you know driveway septic would be under common. >> Has Habitat for Humanity done uh conducts like this before? >> I believe so. I I don't know for sure.
I'm not part of it but um I would imagine they have. >> Carolyn from Habitat unfortunately wasn't able to be here, so I'm kind of filling in. But I I would I would say yes. Uh I believe Carolyn told me that they had just completed a duplex in air.
>> Yeah. >> Which was their most recent project, which was essentially an identical model to this one, >> but allowed by the zoning where they were at. >> Again, I perhaps they got a variance. I have no idea. >> Just one quick question. Hasn't Habitat
built single family houses? It looks like they have in other towns. Yeah, I was just curious about how that worked with the financials and why that was viable and this is not. >> I've worked on I've worked on single family houses for Habitat for Humanity.
>> Sure. And it's all a case by case, right, to do with the site conditions on site because of the overgrowth and some of the invasive species, the septic system, uh, and the earthwork that's going to have to be done to create this. So, this specific site, the single
family model doesn't apply or it wouldn't be feasible >> unless the town could see fit or the affordable housing trust could see fit or the CPC could see fit to grant you a little more money to build a single family home on this site because a affordable single family home for a
family in a neighborhood that's all single family homes would be a very desirable commodity for an affordable user that qualifies. um my two cents, but when I say the tail wagging the dog, this is what bothers me. We have a
zoning bylaw in Littleton that has said no two family no to family construction. We do allow two family conversion for the older homes, especially the tenement homes that are that are larger downtown kind of properties, but we do not have a
two family zoning bylaw. In order to get there on any property in Littleton to have a variance for a two family, I see it as having to be a use variance. It's not a dimensional variance. And the zoning board was roundly criticized in my experience on
this board for many, many years for granting use variances because the use variance is supposed to be the very last tool you use in your toolbox. and we almost lost that ability to grant use variances because of granting one that
the town didn't like. And so they brought it before town meeting to remove that ability from our zoning board. So it's been the board's position, as I recall, never to grant a use variance when there is a worry that we might lose the ability to have it in the toolbox
for when you really, really need it. The problem I have with this property is by the presentation, the admission is they only need the use variances to make the property buildable as a two family because as a one family it doesn't work
and they never would have been on the RFP and as a one family maybe the town needs to revisit what other use it could be put to such as conservation or maybe the town owned one family or something else. But for us to grant a variance, we
have to decide for this board to grant a variance, you have to decide, sorry, that a used variance is something you want to risk doing and you have to find hardship. And I don't see any hardship on this. This is a lot that's an acre and a half.
It would support a one family dwelling like every other acre or acre and a half lot in town. None of them have come before you saying, "Gee, it's too expensive to build a one family. Let me build a two family." And asked for variance in that way.
This applicant also knew that they needed a variance because they went to the building inspector who wrote a letter about it, and you may want to read that into the record, but it basically says, "You proposed to construct a two family dwelling in the
residential district pursuant to 17326. two family dwellings are prohibited. Therefore, a variance is required from the zoning board and then the variance requirements are that you find a literal enforcement would involve a substantial
hardship financial or otherwise. And we the zoning board always has found that you can't create your own hardship. The the habitat or any buyer doesn't have to buy this lot and build on it. That's not a hardship. The hardship is owing to
soil shape or topography. So I'm troubled by the two family. Now as Marin has said, excuse me for using your first name, but it could be done as a 40B. Maybe that's how it should have come down as a 40B through um uh the
selectman's grant of a friendly 40B a lip. And maybe as you said the work was already done preparatory to that including getting the letter sight specific letter from the state. So it wouldn't be a great hurdle to come back as a 40B. Yes it comes before this board
again. The board has some discretion because we're already at the 10%. Um however I don't have a conscientious objection uh to two units being across the street from me. I have a conscientious objection to
substantially dergating from the intent and purpose of the zoning bylaw which is the duty of this board not to do as a variance. I don't like the zero lot line clearance. I think for the reason that maybe I have to think that through more,
but I think it's introducing a new concept to Littleton that I really think should go before town meeting. If this town wants two families on lots anywhere, let's go to town meeting and let them the whole board decide. I don't think four members here should make the decision to change the zoning bylaw that
drastically. Um, >> and if we're going to change the size of the lots required for our single family, then that definitely needs to go to town meeting. >> And zero lot line clearance is done in many communities. It's a very good way to get some housing that's affordable
because that that marriage wall. I call it a shared wall reduces the costs. But I I have a problem with this one coming through on a variance this way because of the use variance problems that I have. Again, I don't have a problem with
two families. I the ADU is fine with me. I think I would argue against the ADU being sold to two separate families again on a basis of creating a precedent where it's no longer an accessory dwelling but it becomes a principal dwelling once you separate it from the
principal dwelling. So I think it has to be when you asked the question I think I it would have to come in as a 40B. If it came as a 40B delightfully, that would give this board in this town a little more flexibility to satisfy a neighbor
who feels that the septic in the building might be a little close to her house because that would allow this board to say push it a little further away from her and a little closer to the wetlands, which this board may have the power to do because on a 40B you can
bypass some of the local zoning. Can I can I just on the letter from the building inspector? What's the date? >> September 25. I'll give you the exact date. >> September 25 of >> I'm sorry. September 2025. >> September 25. So they didn't know at the
time that they the RFP was filed. They just found out recently, right? It wasn't >> who they habitat did not know that they needed the variance at the time they've been on the >> I understand that. I understand that. But when I say tail wagging the dog, it
also it also sort of it it sort of troubles me being in town as long as I have that an RFP was sent out by any boards for a two family in a in a town that doesn't allow two family zoning. That RFP should have been
vetted, I think, through um >> planning board, >> planning board, town administrator, whoever is in charge of that should have said, "Wait a minute, we don't have two family zoning." It it went through planning board and through town council >> um senior residential development. I'm
sorry. That was the other method that could have >> it could have been. I mean I So anyway to to finish I'm sorry I took the floor. I didn't mean uh to take so much of your time to finish. You asked how we could
see this happening and my answer and my feeling about it is I'm not sure I have a strong objection to two families being on that lot. We live gratefully we live in a wooded rural area and I'm not going to really notice the difference if it's
one family or two families except that it's a bad bad curve and when the kids are teenage drivers it becomes a real problem but that only happens for a short period of time but um I don't like dergating from the zoning bylaw and creating that
that is a variance that's all. Thank you. >> Thank you. Would anyone else like to be heard? first. Go ahead. Or I'll go. It doesn't matter. Uh, so Mark Granbacher. I'm on the affordable housing trust. I've been on
the trust for about two years. Um, I remember when we bought this property. Well, we didn't buy just this property. We bought the the whole thing the way it was presented to the town and the way it was funded by the town was that there was going to be a carveout for
affordable housing um it wasn't never designed designated what lot was affordable but because we were doing affordable housing the state kicked in uh a large portion on a grant to help us purchase this property right eventually
well before I got on the board this was the property that was decided when I got on the board. We were already talking about building a duplex. I had no idea we needed any variances of any kind to do a duplex. We've been pushing this. Um the reason
we need the duplex, as Habitat basically said, is it's not cost it's not viable costwise for an affordable housing unit, which I I understand single family um nonaffordable. you could do something
here, but affordables have a lot more constraints on what you can actually do to make it viable. Um, this was presented, I mean, the affordable housing trust is in this for a couple hundred,000 already. Um, which is a lot
of money. If you were going to spend it for a single family, it's when you spread it out over two, it's still a lot of money, but it's half. So, we are trying to make the town the money that we the affordable housing trust is taxpayer money. We're trying to make the money go as far as we can. I agree with
Sher on some of the variance issues, but this is where we get into a financial hardship and a betterment for the town. There's a lot of things that we do can do variances on for the town because of a betterment, right? And adding
affordable housing is considered a betterment. So, that's where you get into where you can grant some of the variances. So, um we like I said, we didn't um sitting on the affordable housing trust, I had no idea there were variances that required. I assumed
everything was hunky dory to go for forward. >> I don't understand how that could be. You had I I believe you, but you had Maren on your affordable Maren knows this. Marin's known this. She's been on She's been worked for this town for how many years, Lauren?
>> I can see that's material. >> Well, >> so >> I mean the zoning bylaws are >> we went through this with the the RFP was presented. >> Their RFP went through town council that went through as many reviews as we could
before we issued the RFP. So, we thought everything was fine from the affordable housing side. >> I read the RFP. It actually it does ask for a duplex to be built there and then it goes on par two paragraphs down and said that all such construction will be
in line with current zoning. It it's so contradictory. I just don't understand. But that's I understand you don't understand. You're not on the ZBA. You're not on the planning board. You're a wonderful selectman who works very hard for the town and puts a lot of time
and effort in and is very appreciated. And I wish we had more land and we could have done more than one and we didn't have to be here for a variance for a duplex or we could have done more units, right? So, but this is the situation we're in. So, >> okay.
>> Um I won't repeat all the things that Mark said. I'm also the affordable housing trust. I was also equally to blame for um issuing an RFP for a duplex when we didn't when we required a variance which I didn't know either. I rely a lot on
experts every day as a select board member or affordable housing trust member to keep me honest on things I don't understand and in this case obviously the process failed. So that's where we that's how we got where we are. Um I would only add you know if there was ever a if there was ever a a
situation where use variance would be applicable. I believe that trying to build deeply affordable units like this uh what is it? What's the AMI? Do you know the AMI percentage for these two units? >> Below 60 >> below 60.
>> So you you know we will never find a developer who will build um a house. We are the affordable housing trust is trying to work on the Derky farmhouse that we we were gifted. We are having a very hard time finding any model that succeeds even with even with the state
grants. Um finding even with Habitat's donations of time and materials. This is it's a tough cell. That's why there needs to be a duplex. So if there was ever a reason for doing a a use variance, deeply affordable housing in Littleton, which we know is a is a problem. Senior housing, which we know
is very scarce, would be the reason to do it in my opinion. >> Can I just comment to that, Madam Chair? Um, Matt, does this if this board says we buy your
argument that the hardship is offset by the betterment if we bought that argument for two here. >> Does that mean that the next developer is going to say, "Well, then let's put four at Derky because we haven't been able to get a developer for one or two there yet. So, let's put four there." And I'm just curious about where that
that's the precedent or the the what I'm worried about establishing by doing this by variance. I >> I think if if if you said that the precedent was if someone builds deeply affordable and I mean below 60% AMI housing and we and you allow multiple
units in a place where you wouldn't allow multiple units. I don't think that would be a problem for two reasons. one is it's rare that you're going to find um a fiscal model that works. And second, I just don't think there are that many lots where a developer isn't
going to simply turn around and build a you know million dollar $1.2 million, you know, $3,000 house $2 million house. >> Okay. >> If they if a build if a builder had that piece of land, that's what they would build. now, but I realize you weren't
aware you you needed a variance and that duplexes weren't allowed by our zoning and that indeed we aren't allowed to I mean you gentlemen appoint us and we and
because of your appointment we swear an oath to uphold our zoning bylaws and to do and do our best for the town to uphold the zoning bylaws There are ways that fit that wouldn't require us to
break our oaths that such as a friendly 40B. The select one would have to prove it first. Um I assume your board would do such a thing for you and then as a friendly 40B, we have all kinds of ways to make things work and ways to fit
things in. H I I'm telling you this because you have had lack of knowledge on other things. So I'm pointing this out to you as as gently as I possibly can. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. >> Because that there the state the state
created the 40B regulation to allow for this and there's so what it is if it's below if we have below 10% income restricted properties in Little Tim we can't refuse a 40b. We can try to to mitigate impact. We can try to make it
fit into the neighborhood as best as possible. We can try to make sure it doesn't impact water resources and we can oversee how the septic system that the board of health is going to have to approve. But we can we can we can do all
kinds of things. And indeed we did the 40B down by Avalon on all of that. It took months, but we did it and it was a huge project and it it works. Um I
a friendly 40b means that it you're we're above 10% which we are and um that means that we can you know have more of a say. If the selectman could say no and um that would kill it. The
selectman say yes they can come to us. we can say okay let's look at all the details let's see if we can make mitigate the impact on the neighbor let's let's make it work um I just put
that out there as trying to make sure you know all the options I >> I appreciate that um I guess my my last my final statement would just be like I do believe that you have it in your power to approve this without you know without like and and still maintain your
oath both and that I don't think it's going to set a dangerous precedent for Littleton. So that's all I have. Thank you very much. >> If I can add just one comment to that, as someone who owns a property with an accessory dwelling unit now with an 89year-old mother, if she were to pass
away, am I then allowed to, you know, sell that as a separate unit or actually I know I know I'm not. I'm just saying that hypothetically because of the precedent that I I think I agree with you. it. We do need housing. I have a son who works at the Littleton Middle
School who would never be able to afford to live buy a house in this town and I when I contacted uh you Marin and I had asked with because of the fact that they were building a two family and I didn't realize that that was allowed and apparently it's not allowed. I said,
"Well, geez, I still have a lot of other property. Would I then be able to build another accessory dwelling unit that actually would be one like 88 accessible because my mother can no longer do the stairs and then let my son live in the other one and you said no that is not
allowed by the town. We are only allowed one accessory dwelling unit which I understand but I just wonder why like certain rules apply to some residents and certain rules don't. And so I think it has to be consistent if if we're going to give this
>> to look at that because I just recently had a builder tell me that you can build unlimited number of ADUs, >> but I'm not familiar that familiar with our zoning. >> Does anyone have a book? >> I think the state allows multiple ADUs. Ours currently does not.
>> Yeah. Yeah, the overall I'm just saying I think it just starts the president where how many waiverss are we going to give because I think there's a lot there's a huge need as we all know for affordable housing and people are looking for solutions. So if you're going to grant this one I think it's
going to be an ongoing thing with other requests. >> Is there anyone else who would like to say something? >> Yeah. Can I respond? >> Of course you can. Um, so I think those are valid points, but on the other hand, you're not talking about a deed restricted like lowinccome permanently
deed restricted low-inccome unit, which is very different from dividing up a house into and selling it for market rate in multiple ways. So again, I think the precedent is not as widespread and dangerous as as as you know, maybe um people fear.
>> That's all. Thank you. >> I appreciate. I'd also just add on to that is that you know this is I would say you know extenduating circumstances that the RFP was approved by town council and the planning board and now we're here whereas the president if that were to
happen again it would have to be under that same >> I'm trying to understand that because I had to send the RFP to town council um he had never seen it before. So I don't understand how he approved it if he had never seen it before. >> It came through their office. Jenny Merrill drafted it for us from from
Harington. >> Okay. Yeah. >> All right. >> And then just to comment on the 40B, I had some correspondence with some people at the office and members. So that's it was considered. It's not an option that we want to, you know, proceed with just due to the the time and cost is trying
to keep these as affordable and that that that 40B process isn't our most um cost-effective way to proceed. I move we close the hearing. >> Will there any more folks that want to talk? There's more folks here
>> who haven't spoken yet. >> I'll take Rod's motion. >> Could I Sorry. Could I request So you were just making a motion to >> close the >> Before you did that, could I request a straw poll vote on whether or not they
would the the board would approve a variance for slot? Well, you have to have four out of four here, >> right? So, I was asking for a straw poll. >> Sure.
>> Before before we have a chance to close and discuss. >> Yeah, I think I would like to have a chance to discuss before we decide decide what my vote's going to be. >> I'm not >> Do we have anyone poll is not not binding? We can >> No, it's not.
If I may, I think the applicant is considering whether or not to ask for continuence while he regroups with his powers that be because once you close, they're not supposed to add new information. Correct. So, I think that's what his concern is. >> If that's the case, that's my
recommendation. >> Well, he wanted >> to continue. >> Rod is saying he would vote against it >> at this point. And I think that you only need one out of four. So, >> okay. >> So, there that's your straw poll.
>> I'll take it. So, I'd like to >> the rest of the rest of us would like to discuss it and talk to each other about it, but Rod is saying no. Then you you have to have all four of us. So, that's that's your straw poll. So, if you'd like a continuence,
>> yes, blame it on me. And again, I I would stress the friendly B. Even though, you know, we well we're over 10%, I'm totally willing to consider it. I'm just saying that we'll recommmit and we'll be back at the So, can we request a continuance to the next meeting?
>> Sure. Um, we have to vote on that, don't we? >> Yes. >> Do we >> I'll take a motion for continuence. >> I so move. >> Second. >> We need a place in time. >> We know. Our next meeting. >> Yeah. Do we have anything on the agenda?
>> Not yet. >> November, whatever. >> Not that I know of. >> But it doesn't matter. John is >> well that's for time. >> Oh let me tell you what day it is. >> Uh it's scheduled for >> meeting would be third Thursday 20th 20th.
>> So that's before Thanksgiving. Okay. >> Move we continue the hearing to November 20th. >> We move that a week 710. >> Can we move that a week? >> What? >> It's not how I want to spend my 65th
birthday. forget every now and >> I can't take off because there's only four of us. I'm sorry. >> Um, can we change that meeting date? >> Is that easily because that's it's the womb's already booked for us on that day.
>> It's only a day. Just go the day before for your birthday. >> Okay. John has John has made a mo I suck. Sorry. Excuse my language. Don has made a motion to continue the hearing to the to November 20th at 7:10
and I believe that David has seconded >> correct >> that motion. All those in favor Rod >> I. >> David >> I. >> John >> I. >> Cheryl I. You are continued till 7:10 November 20th. >> Thank you John. See you. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming out. It's always good to hear your neighbors and thank you especially to the our selectmen and our housing authority members who are working really hard on this. I understand.
>> Are we done? We have we have close meeting. >> Any other business before the board? Uh John makes a motion to close the meeting. Do I have a second? >> Second. >> All those in favor? I I Okay, we're
closed.