##VIDEO ID:mkrA-Z9ek9s## he so tall turn my my phone I can't remember if I just did that I started to that I think I'll get lost there you go I don't want my wife to call me not that I get very many F calls I've been fine how about you a nice to see everyone's face yeah I know I don't know if you did US did you do us yeah is the boy still in sleep at look like there's no lights on there it goes oh there it is I'm scratching my head I think we're on good evening we're at the uh Littleton Town Offices this is the zoning board of appeals we're at 37 Shad Street Littleton it's January 16th it's uh 7:00 p.m. and we're a little out of practice cuz we haven't had a meeting in so long so bear with us please six months this is not a scheduled meeting for hearings we do not have any applications before the board tonight what we do have is a couple of items on the agenda one of which is to welcome formally our new building inspector um Henry Fontaine he comes to us from Westford he's been sitting as building inspector in Littleton for about 3 months now and uh he asked to attend the meeting so he could meet us and you all could meet him and he can see what our board does nothing I've been hearing lovely things about you that's a good thing yes it is the the other item on our agenda tonight would be uh voting officers I don't think we've done that in over a year and it would be time to do that tonight and a discussion about the vacancies that we have in our alternates so if anyone is watching tonight we're short for alternates on this board and there's plenty of room for newcomers so please consider serving the town by volunteering to be appointed as an alternate for this board the uh job that we do is easier than most boards we only meet once a month when there is an application usually not at all if there are no applications and there are um a fin number of zoning bylaws and rules that we have some jurisdiction over so learning the ropes is not that difficult and there's plenty of people here to help guide you and share with you the experience that they've had the other thing that's on the agenda is that Governor Mara has enacted new legislation concerning the uh affordable housing and the availability of housing opportunities in the Commonwealth and we will all be subject to those new rules and regulations so I thought it would be a good idea for this board to meet to determine whether we want to give any input as the planning board and the town and the town meeting Works through the process of enacting and adopting the legislation and determining whether or not the town has interests that would be consistent with the new state legislation but also um a little bit protective of our town people in our bylaws so all those things are on the agenda tonight I hope you're all up for it cuz we're going to launch right in starting at the beginning our first item on the agenda is the review of minutes our last minutes go back to I think a meeting in July yes and uh the the June the meeting was June so the minutes were written uh in July and supposed to be approved in July no the meeting was in July July says minutes June 20 24 no no that's no that was the minutes we approved on on July meeting but these are so this is a July meeting thank you okay so if anyone has comments to the minutes as presented have you all read them yeah any comments or changes no I thought they were very well done and I'll accept a motion to approve the minutes I I move to approve the minutes says presented second please I wasn't there oh I wasn't either I'll second it I don't think it matters whether it's there or not for a second I vote for seconding or moving or voting but then I think only the three of us vote all those in favor signify by saying I I I I opposed none okay that was easy any member comment any news anything's going on in the community that we need to know about no that's easy and I didn't see any mail received by the board so we can skip that one we are a full board we can do an election of offices tonight do you want to try to do that sure I'd nominate the same slate is there already second to that any discuss no discussion that makes Cheryl Vice chair you are secretary yes that's okay with everybody all those in favor signifying by saying I I I no opposition thank you very much for your support he you've done a great job we'd be lost without you thank you I'd be lost without the board I really this is my social life that's all I got no I really enjoy all of your input and all of your ideas um vacancies in alternate positions sadly we lost several of our alternates I think part of it is we don't we're not busy enough and I think they didn't feel like they were contributing enough just because we're not busy um Cheryl probably wants to address why we're not so busy but let's talk about the vacancies first um we have four seats open we have a board that has been voted to be five members and four alternates when we're busy or when we have something like a 40b project in front of us we are in desperate need of the alternates in fact there were two items that were presented to my office in the last six months I think one of them came from you I'm not sure but both of which inquired whether they needed to pre go before the board of appeals for a variance and in one of them two of us on the board had a conflict and would have had to recuse there would have only been three people left and I was this close to asking selectman to please appoint someone temporarily for one meeting but that applicant never did come forward which has to do with marah's legislation and not having to come forward the other one there was only one conflict but they would have needed a four out of four vote for what they were requesting and I felt it would be unfair to put them through that without an alternate at that time I don't think Kathleen had yet submitted her formal papers to resign nor her had her term run out and I thought of going back to her to ask but that's all over now I don't have those four vacating alternates to call upon so I would love it if somebody uh out there would volunteer or if any of you have friends or colleagues or if you hear of anyone who wants to serve the town this is a great board to serve on okay and should any interested people contact you or the um actually they should contact C Diane C at the town uh clerk's office um or they could contact Luchia who is in the permitting Department uh Luchia how do you say her last name you forgot to yeah I would know I don't know I don't want to say it wrong yeah so it's Luchia but she's down at the permitting office which is I think it's the city a TTI yeah yeah I didn't know if it was PID or PID but anyway let B um I don't think it's a second at the U permitting office which is the door to the right of the main entry to the town offices okay the governor Healey changes had me thinking and that's what I'd like to discuss now in the past when we've seen case law or change legislation come down that would impact at what our zoning bylaws call for in any way and this is way before all of you and it was when I was still a newbie on the board the movers and shakers then would say let's draft a bylaw consistent with the new case law and ask the planning board to move it forward and approve it our board typically does not have the authority to draft bylaws or to pass by laws but since we have to interpret them I always think it's important that we know what they say what they mean what the intent is and that we have some say in it um I'm going to let you speak to to your concerns if you just give me one more second to finish S one example of that is change alteration of an existing structure if you remember we kind of struggle with that bylaw when it comes up in front of us and we ended up with a case um governing us which says essentially if the change extension or alteration adds no new non-conformities or variances then it's something the building inspector Ken Grant without our involvement but if in if it involves any new nonconformities it should come before the board of appeals and this town voted to let it come before the zoning board of appeals by special permit and as you know the special permit is easier to Grant than a variance we don't need to get over the threshold of hardship to Grant a special permit but what it does is it invites the neighbors to come in and input why or why not they think it's a good idea most of it came down on the cape when large structures were going to be obscuring the view of smaller structures and so as time evolved we've adopted that um sort of principle in that Lake Properties have this problem a lot and the lake propert properties are close together and dense and frequently if you put a second story on your L property you would be or may be obscuring the view of somebody who doesn't have Waterfront and we've been cautious about that but what's been vital to the community is that we let the Neighbors come in and say whether it would obstruct their view or not they're entitled to be heard they're entitled to voice their concerns about water run off from the roof like in the last one or um I too close to the lot line to paint the side of the building if it needs painting and things like that so with maral's new legislation which is very very permissive to allow more density and more structures um I've got some feelings about what we could input based on what we've seen in the past to make sure that the abutters can be heard in terms of offering input even if they can't can't stop it under Healey's legislation even if we can't stop accessory dwelling units or uh grandfather excuse me pre-existing non-conforming lots to be built upon we may be able to put in some safeguards that the neighbors get to be heard and that our community gets to have the same face so Cheryl so you're suggesting that we go to the planning board and ask the planning board to refer him back to us no order to get that the neighbors get a chance I mean one of the lovely things about the zba is our agenda isn't nearly as full as the planning boards and we have the time and the luxury of inviting The Neighbors in listening to them and trying to adjust things to accommodate things being able to say to the petitioner G do you hear your neighbors concerns is there some way you'd like to change this such that it would address your neighbor concerns that's a luxury we have that's really quite wonderful for the town and towns people and it is I don't know how to get that to the planning board in such a way that they would understand that they should probably in many cases send cases to us um right at the moment it seems like the leg the zoning changes that we've approved in the last several years have had the unattended consequences of the zoning board being able to make do their own variances and special permits planning board giving waivers yes the planning board gives waivers for example the T I don't understand why or how they suddenly can do this the town's people voted to include senior low-income housing and very carefully considered ratios and and talked at town meeting about ratios of of low income versus cost Etc and yet the planning board is giving waivers to that requirement on new construction for example Hager they reduced the the number of units required to be low income at Hager because they considered it not as financially viable or feasible but that's not what the town passed and I'm a little confused as and really questioning how or why the planning board would be making those kinds of of waivers and granting those kind of things where it seems like traditionally that's the zba's job and so for example on Hager I I'll be quite specific they have a garage that's within a few feet of the property line that as a as a as a practical person about that I I look at and think that garage could have been pushed back away from the sidewalk and the property line and some shrubber could have been planted there and it would be much more appealing but I'm not sure the planning board had the the time or the luxury of staring at that plan and and driving by that site because they have their hands full they they're busy board and thinking about gee we could push that garage back or even shorten it one garage Bay and make that whole site much more attractive I think that these kinds of things should be coming to us and I'm not sure how to make that happen and I kind of like personally I'd like to to propose the a Zone a zoning bylaw change at town meeting that the planning board isn't allowed to make those kinds of waivers that they have to come to People Like Us who have the time and the energy to look at this and say Gee let's just step that back five feet and put some Shrubbery there it will look much more appealing to a very prominent part something in our town you know it's minor stuff like that and you know the planning board doesn't seem to have the they busy I'm not trying to be critical of the planning board but that's traditionally where we have come in it appears to me having been on this board now for 12 years 13 years something like that that's where our job has come come in to listen to the neighbors to look at the site to think about the small minutia the small the the the things that you know when you're when you're dealing with things like the point and or the the new s what Sal is doing there you're looking at huge projects you know if there's a waiver in there maybe you need a fresh set of eyes to look at that waiver and say okay I understand the big picture but we could could we tweak this little part you're so busy the planning board's so busy looking at the big picture that they need they need us to look at the little little little nuances and I don't think they realize that and I don't know how to communicate that do do you guys understand what I'm saying do I make sense I I think so we used to do that right I mean we did and and it suddenly dried up about a year or two ago well because we pl passed a whole bunch of zoning bylaws and there are some unintended consequences and some of the unintended consequences is the planning board has the right to give themselves those waivers I I don't know that it's unintended I think that the planning board needs needs to be able to have the ability to wave their their own standards when it makes more sense and I think that they have they have the technical expertise and also available to them the the outside Consultants to be able to review and to be able to get far deeper into the details than I think any of us would want to get into when we're talking about projects well we did the 40b um right but I don't think anybody would would agree that the 40b projects had any other um tools available to them but sledgehammers that's not true can I can I interject here the zoning board is granted Authority and Powers by the state mhm the state only authorizes the zoning board to do certain things right one thing we're allowed to do is to override Henry's decision if we don't like if an applicant or an a butter is disgruntled by the building inspector's decision we have a right to issue a building permit and override the building inspector I don't think we've ever done that unless we told him in advance we're going to do it no I don't think we I don't think we've exercised that one very often once or twice maybe in my memory we've been asked a couple times but yeah and usually the building inspector is good enough to relook or take a second look at the document that's one that's one power another power that we have is to Grant special permits when the zoning bylaw or the state gives the special permit granting authority to the zba and not to the planning board you are correct in that in many of the new legislation that has come down the pike and been before the town the planning board has made themselves the special permit granting Authority for many of those projects like the Hagar Homestead like the overlay like the uh downtown uh District the the I forget what they I keep forgetting what they call that the zero clearance District or something planning board has granted them given themselves the special permit granting Authority we're also entitled to give variances from the zoning bylaw use and dimensional aspect we've only given a use variance once and we were very criticized for it so we shy away from use variance grants we've been giving dimensional variances a lot of times but uh this the predecessor to Henry was a fellow Who aired on the not aired on the side who leaned toward giving uh giving variances in many cases where it wasn't really an extension or a brand new dimensional variance it was an extension of an existing variance so we didn't see a lot of those and then again in things like Hager Homestead the overall bylaw says these are the dimensional variances the planning board needs to Grant and if there's any waiver expected or needed from it it's it's in the planning board jurisdiction so you're right the planning board took on the position of of granting exemptions and waivers to dimensional things they didn't take it away altogether but we're left with very few that are coming before us because of the fact that um most of them have been have come and gone and been and some of it depends on the building inspector and the building inspector a couple before him you know two people before him was very um hesitant to to to make the decision and and rather than make the decision he always pushed them on us and let us make the decision and then he was replaced with somebody who was more than willing to stand up and make the decision on his own and so all of a sudden you know between the planning board getting stuff and different building inspectors you know the work for lack of AE terms don't dried up so speaking to that when Henry came aboard he and I sat down and talked and I explained that to him I said two building inspectors ago we had everything come here and while it was a little burden for the applicant it was really kind to the neighbors because they were entitled to come here and be heard and they liked that and even though like I said a little burden to the applicant but every applicant left here with a willingness to negotiate with his neighbors so everyone left giving getting a little of what they wanted or most of what they wanted that that's why we're here tonight so let me talk to the two pieces of legislation that are bothering me one of them are these adus right now Littleton has a bylaw that says that an accessory dwelling unit first we had the accessory dwelling unit had to be occupied by a person functionally dependent on the owner of the property which meant it had to be a relative or maybe a caregiver yes and we would allow that to happen with certain circumstances and those circumstances were septic capacity parking capacity and renewal annually to prove the functional dependency still existed we morphed into an accessory dwelling BW that says we no longer need that blood relation functional relationship and the renewal every year but what we do need is an owner occupant on one of the units and we did that as a response to many of our elders wanting to remain in their homes or in Littleton and not being able to afford the rising taxes so by letting them go into an Adu on the property and rent out the big house or stay in the big house and have a small rental they were able to make ends me and that was the impetus for that bylaw Mar's new bylaw says any property can have an accessory dwelling unit on it provided it doesn't exceed 900 square ft and to my knowledge that's really the gist of the bylaw her bylaw doesn't address septic capacity Although our Board of Health would address that and her bylaw doesn't address architectural appearance of this little little house this tiny house and her B doesn't address something that I've found important over the years and you're mention you mentioned it tonight the accessory dwelling structure sitting in the site view in the roadway forward of the big dwelling or sideways to the big dwelling or in such a way I did this the other day I drove from the old Mark monary property which is now the septic treatment plant off the highway exit and started to come to town and I said Gee every one of those big huge old lovely buildings that you see as sort of historic structures or turn of century structures in Littleton all of a sudden now could have a little tiny house beside it every single one of them could have a tiny house in their sidey yard what it in front of it beside it and so I thought to myself I don't want to like a shed coming off of it yeah and I don't want to be against the development of housing but I think that Littleton could work on a bylaw that says it has to be in keeping with the period structure of the main house maybe that's not too cumbersome and that has to be reviewed by a board and maybe by the zoning board that would let the neighbors weigh in or maybe we say it has to have um roof pitches that go in One Direction or another maybe that's a good point I think it should sit back of the front property line as we have made the the all accessory the bylaw for accessory structures structures have to be behind the front of the house now and I think all of and and maybe I don't I don't I hate to I really hate to dictate someone else's use of their private property but I think it's okay in this sense to say we we honor the marili legislation but Littleton wants to enact some oversight or over or overview over these things so they're allowed as of right but there are certain conditions you have to adhere to and one would still be septic and one would still be parking and one might be traffic flow onto the site CU if you end up with two driveways as close together that could be a hazard or if you end up with a with a property that backs into King Street during rush hour that could be a Hazard and maybe those things are things we could input on this mandatory ad to you what do you think John you you see it all the time yeah our town addressed this at our December town meeting and uh amended the bylaws to include uh a a significant portion of bite either interior to the existing structure or detached um but they also included a lot lot of Provisions so the the the detached construction had to be of a certain age um it also had to to be by right had to be less than 900 square ft also it had to not have significant topographical uh or or tree disturbance and if there were those triggers um it would be reviewed by the planning board as limited site plan approval um but I think it was important to have a a decent portion of that to be by right the other the other big factor was keeping the structure behind the furthest most plane of the existing house so that it essentially ended up in the backyard um and then there were some other some uh parking requirements and some um requirements is centered around our storm water management bylaw now what town is this Weston okay I like I like the term furthermost plane um because that doesn't just put it six Ines behind the very front of the house but does keep it in the backyard if someone wants to build an accessory dwelling I think it should be in their backyard I think it should be more Bon on them than on their neighbors personally but I think you know if they have room in their backyard if they don't have their room in their backyard they're going to have to address that that's what place like the CBA is for right and tell John just said is when the town voted they're new by they voted it for the planning board so I think we need to weigh in with this with the planning board when they have the initial discussions about this and say we want you to give the power back to the zba or the hearing power back to the zba so that we can entertain those those neighbors those neighbors and those conditions that you're talking about that are not so technical in nature but are aesthetic and and neighborly in nature but the the bylaw that we propose should include a lot of the things John just said in my opinion the planning board should include those things but they should say any waiver or exemption from thisly to go before the CBA right that's what we should include and that puts the powers that we have in the right position don't you think yeah the the other condition was that you couldn't have exterior stairs so that it didn't look like a um you know like a fire escape or a um and know there was no ownership requirement no ownership requirement under her under her legislation the only and there's no short-term rental but the state has already defined that for us and we don't need to worry about that it's interesting um yeah making it in there and building them to be airbnbs can you imagine all the waterfronts suddenly these little houses second little houses popping up on every Waterfront my other question was whether if you have an existing two family or even in a three family structure is that property still eligible to put an aid to you in the yard single family said single family the structure has to be a single family on the but we can we can you could mod we could modify that in the town of Littleton and do we want to it's a it's another big question not by right I would I don't think you could by right it would have to be by special permit once again it sort of depends on what the planning board decides to present to the town meeting for a vote but yeah to me the Adu in a multif family existing prop on a multi family existing property makes more sense one of those cases I talked about that was going to come here with a conflict of interest I think one of them was it two family that wanted an Adu in a burn that was already pre-existing on the land the two families already in the house the the barn is already on the land the barn would make an ideal Adu it is bigger than 950 ft but I think you could either not allow development of more than 950 interior or you could wave the 950 because it just makes sense to use the existing antique barn or if you already have a two family there in a residential neighborhood is it really a benefit to the neighbors to have it suddenly be a 3 family um differ it traffic noise um isn't that something that could come before zba and let the neighbors weigh in well Mar's legislation is very much about single families and I don't want to turn it into G let's have adus on mty families on mty family it just to me it just I know I'm conservative I know but if you want housing there doesn't seem to be a Prohibition I mean a reason not to do that with some oversight I just just again talking it's already it's to me in a single family um in a single family residential neighborhood it is already a burden when you start having multifamilies multifamilies tend to be have younger louder tenants but you know one of the things that we forget is you know we live in a town with well we can have some sewage in a very small area but the majority of town there no sewage and you still have to meet Title 5 and in a lot of cases down the M the pond Long Lake you couldn't you can't even there's not even room on the lot to put a you know onecar garage never mind Tred to put something in and expand the septic system yeah so I mean but there are lots that do fit that spectacle Pond and on and over on manawan there are lots that fit that description quite well yeah and you know when you start you have to be careful because adus should people should be able to make their property work for them you know it it it's buying a house and buying property is a major investment and you need to make it be a ble to work for you but on the other hand if your next door neighbor is suddenly running an Airbnb out out of a little house that they move on to the property and if they even if they put a new separate system to accommodate it you're going to have a lot of parties and you're going to it will be you know or there's a higher chance of it and yeah I don't think the Airbnb issue would that would very quickly be enforced and upheld it would we had I mean I'm sorry I manage a property here in Littleton that has a a that is a waterfront on lake manaan and we had two gentlemen renting it and we didn't realize that they had both moved out and they were airb being it until the neighbor call and we found out they've been doing it for quite a while and the neighbor finally got fed up enough it been going on for year finally got fed up enough to track down the owner and call the owner in which case we found it listed on it Airbnb it was it was you know that we got them out of there but the wear and tear on the property was terrible and the neighbors were all very grumpy um with the situation and so it can happen without people being it you know it just it happens so I get the sense from the board that you're you're there's no vote tonight but me from wrong you're in agreement that we should uh at a minimum let the planning board know that we would still like to have the authority over granting variances and special permits for the conditions that the planning board imposes on these adus yes is that unit we all have that same feeling and second of all that we would like to be in attendance I did already take the liberty of writing them and saying please don't exclude the zoning board and make sure we're aware of your meetings and your hearings on this so any members who are interested can be in attendance and I'm going to ask them to make sure we're in attendance um Mark monari had said to me that we he got my email as did Jeff Yates and um Marin and that they would have a joint meeting with zoning board so when we do that we're going to have to notice the meeting properly but I think you should all try to attend the joint meeting and then um that's for adus the other leg of the legislation has me a little bit bothered as well and that is in the past there has been Cas law that said if one owner ends up owning an undersized lot even developed with a house on it and acquires adjacent land that all of a sudden all of that is merged and even if the adjacent one two or three lots were originally pre-existing non-conforming Lots once you acquire them in the same ownership as the house lot you've merged them and you don't have the right to build on them the hey legislation now says if the Lots were at any time separated uh by a uh recorded plan or pre-existing prior to zoning they're not merged and they can be built upon as long as they're 10,000 square ft and 75 of of Frontage and then they can be built on but not more than 1850 Square ft and not less than three bedrooms so I think she's was trying to avoid and not seasonal use so she was trying to avoid the vacation home summer vacation home thing it said you're right 1850 good memory and and it said not you think I'm not reading and paying attention not less than three bedroom which is interesting she's trying to three bedroom into an 1800 squin home no problem yeah and and once again I think that construction will be severely limited by the septic regulations because as it is now it's hard to get septic systems on those lots I have some friends who have done a but on the other hand there are some Lots some people I'm about to go when does this legislation take February February there are some people I'm about to go talk to yeah I know and I approached me about selling their lot before next door to them that they acquired for investment purposes and I had to say no I'm sorry you you're going to go back I'm going to go back to him now and say jimy crickets y certainly relate to that yeah CU I was in the exact same situation but the the lot never really passed per for new new construction and we had to redo the septic system so our leech field is now on that lot so we can't separate it anyway was yours the full 10,000 ft they were both 125 I think what they were 125 12 both now Mike that's a good question there have been questions in the past about subdividing Lots if a Reserve System would need to be on that land when did that come up there was a case that we had where I think what you're referring to is even if you had a lot bigger than one acre even if you had a two acre lot you couldn't subdivide and create an anr plan for two lots unless you could prove to the Board of Health that the res first law where there is a septic systems Reser res tank and system would still remain on that lot that's what I'm thinking of so is that going to apply to these that's a I mean that's another good question that needs to be discussed when the hearings are open what are we going to do about septic capacity on these things and and frankly there's no prohibition against sharing a septic system between two lots if it has the capacity if it has the capacity so it could very well be that every single one of these 10,000 ft Lots I thought there was a Prohibition of sharing a septic system well I thought we gave a variance on that over by the lake my sister lives in a she's got there like six or seven houses they all have their own septic tank but they share a leechfield h and that's now legal Littleton because it didn't used to be no it's it's always been legal what you have to do is kind of condominium ISE this the land for the septic purposes and the Board of Health requires uh Hefty Reserve fund for replacement in case you want so you you turn the septic system into a condo yeah and well so that you know you go to sell your house and the SE system all what failed person who buys it doesn't know that they're not going to get hit with $10,000 septic bill you know that's not fair and then also do you want do you want to have uh the zba uh involved in any kind of a dimensional variance from that if it's 9900 sare ft² or if it's 9,800 Square ft um instead of 10,000 you want to I don't know we the power to give it I don't think we should I don't think I mean we've never tried to give any I right now there's a state law that any lot freestanding lot that's over 5,000 square feet and has a minimum of 50 foot of Frontage 5,000 fet and 50 foot of Frontage is by law a a lot now they still have to be able to get a septic system but it's by law a lot we've never thought of giving a variance on that for you know to someone who was 4,950 I wouldn't think we would do that here either I'm not I'm trying to think if we ever did that I'm not sure we did we've never even discussed it but if they build we'd have to give a variance for under 40,000 foot lot no not if it's a grant if it's I keep saying that not if it's a pre-existing non-conforming lot uh that goes through the building inspector because it's a state statute of a pre-existing right yeah for pre zoning and it's not just fall under that 5,000 5,50 50t footage Y and then then my question is will that be altered by the healing legislation is I would think it wouldn't be because she's talking about a totally different animal that's that's like a cow and this is a horse to me this is this is saying that these are two lots that happen to be next to each other that were pre-existing separate lots and were by law combined whether the owner intended it or not the owner bought both of them the owner bought both buys both and it gets attached whereas ideally if you buy both you shouldn't they shouldn't have to be attached right it's I mean that's that's bitten many people in the bottom they buy the land next to them thinking that it's going to be an investment they're going to be able to sell it as a lot someday they don't realize that this this Conjuring happens you didn't talk to a real estate lawyer would have told them buy it under a trust or something do it so it's not actually you but that setif fuge has always bothered me buying it under the trust the solution and that only benefits people affluent enough to hire a lawyer when they buy the lot next door you know not everybody can do that I understand but it's always but you know to me it seems um 10,000 square ft is not an unreasonable lot size lot size 5,000 square ft seems very tight to me especially if you're trying to put a septic system and a house and a two and a two-bedroom mcmansion which is what they do down at the lake in I know I if they can get the septic system they'll put a to the reality is this town voted 1 acre zoning so 10,000 is small when you voted for 1 Acres zoning I understand the purpose of the zing the purpose of the he legislation but once you've adopted 1 acre zoning going back to 10,000 is going to be a hard reality for some people to face when they drive down the street it's to me there's one of the things about town growth is trying to keep a balance trying to keep things in Balance trying to honor the people who move to Littleton because it's rural because it's got space because the houses are seated because there you know congestion isn't a problem and then also juggling the needs of Housing and the fact that our common needed revitalizing and you know juggling those those needs it's it's in any Town growth it's a balancing act and sometimes you know when you're adding a thousand dwellings to a common area sometimes you want to them be a little tighter in the non-common area to balance things out am I saying that right I think I am I think we get I think we get we going with it you know I mean the idea of making the accessory dwelling apply to multifamilies in town rather than just single families just makes me go yeah but then then it's hard to have this conversation without sounding like a nimi if your goal is to produce housing what better land to produce it on than a a lot that's either exactly an acre or just under an acre with already a two family what better place to put a third family but our bylaws allowed two family with an owner right now our bylaw allows two families anywhere no pretty much they allows the accessory we allow the accessory dwell oh I'm sorry a a pre-exist two family home like a colonial house that was two family like on King Street those colonial homes are two family homes almost across the street from us three family yeah so what better place to put another Adu or fourth family than in a neighborhood that already has the experience of multif family use it just it just multiplies The Residency and the possible issues I'm hearing you I'm just I'm not sure I'm buying you but I hear you so let's talk about the one that's across the street from you I managed that property for a long time I'm very familiar with it one of our board members used to live in it down back behind it there's a barn there is a big barn there's a big barn it was built to be quite the man cave and the is that what it is oh hu it was quite the man cave complete with Billiards and and putting greens and and everything else and the town refused to allow him to put water down there because they were afraid it would become another it apartment um but if that were I mean you have an owner occupant at that the house that you across the three family across the street from you I don't think it's own yes there was no occupant there is it it wasn't for a long time cuz they they sold it and somebody else the the current owners live in the main house and then there's the two the little attached up and down apartment to the left if you then add you know because there's an owner occupant I think you tend to have much more responsible yeah because the guys over there yeah um if you if that owner occupant wasn't there and we've had situations where they weren't before and at that house um then you you you tend to have it's just different and then if you add the barn in back down as another dwelling it's just it's you know it's like taking the 1 acre zoning and dividing it up even further it's it's you know why do we have one acre zoning you know what what is the philosophy behind one acre zoning you know it it's it's it's snob it's snob zoning sorry it's not really snob zoning it was trying to keep the rule at Le at least Suburban look where houses were not on top of each other the rural but then we but since then we have passed bylaws where we have special spots where you see all these houses right next to each other because there's a pile of land over here somewhere that's part of it now mind you the land that's over there is absolutely not buildable wetlands are not it's Wetlands but that allowed that to use that square footage then we changed that bylaw so that the land over there it's called cluster zoning so that the land over there now has to pass perks and has to be buildable according to the the bylaw whether it actually happens or not that's what the the law say the zoning by law says it actually doesn't it says it says you have to show a proof plan that you can get X number of houses on that parcel somewhere I thought you actually had to perk it no I think you just had to show showing that it can be done and then it says once you show that you can then cluster or make a dense project of quarter acre lots all together and a good example is haly corner there were quarter acre lots Al together uh which offended the neighbor who has the one acre zoning beside it but the point being that they did conserve maybe 15 acres and there's some near the Town Forest and there's a benefit there's a benefit of town for it but it's still you know when you're years ago I would I in Bedford there was a house that came up for sale and it was right on the road it was on at the intersection of 62 and Route 4 and it was F the house was like 5T from both roads I mean you and you go by it and you go who would ever buy that and one none of us would because we're used to having more space but if you're from the inner city where the houses touch each other country where houses actually touch each other and touch the sidewalk you don't have any yard then to them it's like oh this is a country because now they have a 4ot space around their house and so it's it's all relative I mean some one person would think is terrible someone else going think it's nice you have to go kind of by the it's not you have to go by the will of the people living in the town that's why we have Town meetings and that's why we have Town bylaws and you have to balance that with state regulations I me this the the the the years of fight over the one for about the the railway station and so forth NBTA communities yeah and and they came up with a I thought a rather unique and nice solution but forgive me but that unique and nice solution ensures that nothing will get built there I'm not just no it does if you do the numbers or if you do the math or if you look at the cost of acquiring land nothing can be built there it's not aviable well basically they have to buy the build there the land that is zoned for it are two commercial buildings are sitting on so you have to have someone who willing to go in and tear down two commercial buildings to build residential that can't and there can only so many and they're small residential because it's not like the 55 King Street where they got these huge building going in these are restricted because of the way the thing was set up and so financially it's probably not very viable at least not now maybe later restricted sure it will but the advantage to it is that there's now required busing service from the center of town to the train station only because IBM talked the loow transit authority into doing it loal transic Authority could do away with it anytime they want it this now is required as part of the 550 construction is they now have to make sure there's there's treat there's a there's a service going back and forth to the uh train station I disagree with you Sher that I think that is extremely economically feasible given the values of T housing in Littleton and I can foresee that that will be done within the next 10 15 years I I don't want to argue that cuz that's not in front of us I just I made my comment and and I don't I dis what I'm saying is I disagree I just because the cost of housing and I mean a building lot in Littleton right now is going for 500,000 you can't deliver affordables in that price range well it's not all affordable the other problem with affordable is just the definition so you think affordable housing oh it means whatever no it doesn't it means there's a they look at the area with four or five towns around and what the average income is and take some percentage of that and that becomes affordable for a lot of people that's not affordable still it's not even close yeah not also I mean you can qualify for affordable housing now if you make 120 120,000 here yeah but affordable units go for half million dollars anyway we're going this St I decided I wasn't going to give this much more than an hour cuz it's not a real meeting it's a pretend meeting can we can we ask our lovely building inp new building inspector for input on the anything we've discussed um well I think the ad Mar is going to you know put that into place so it'll be good it' be interested to see how that works I I know I'm working in other communities the um even with the Adu septic system had to work I mean you had a four bedroom house you know and you wanted to add another bedroom then you're replacing the setic isn't make it work so the people have to take that in consideration um and and as far as the uh the lot sizes I'm just a little puzzled with the the difference size when the Mars he that group is um presenting here cuz 5,000 has always been there 550 you know yeah why are they going to 7 yeah want preate zoning and you can get a uptic in water pable water on it so there there are places I know of that I think that will work that I had to tell you mean over the years I'm been doing real estate now for gosh since the'80s and over the years there have been many people that I have said to I'm sorry you can't subdivide you you bought it as an investment your children are now going to in one case okay okay our children are ready for college we're ready to sell this lot no you can't you know it was it was it was hard to tell them that no they can't um and now they now they will be able to it's but the children have already graduated I'm sure well probably probably still have bills to pay so so anyway what I take from the meeting is unless you have more the use um they're coming there's not going to be Sol we start seeing a lot of those I think it's a great idea if you keep away from the front of the property be a little more curve appeal to it that's for certain so hopefully hope we can through that pie and I think also we should be at the table when they talk about the unmerging if you will of the 10,000 square fet I think that's important I do have one uh colleague who's done an assessment of what's down at the Long Lake area and how many lots that will affect and that would be an interesting uh look see only because that's a has he already done that for a long area yeah and that's a sensitive area for the water runoff and everything else I got to get over to those people fast because otherwise the Builders of the world are going to be descending on them you have every August is always a septic load issue so we need to weigh in on that but and I do want to preserve as much as we can the right of this board to have the variance granting and the and the special permit granting authority over the things they decide because otherwise we're out of business I mean we're not likely going to over overturn you and we're not likely going to see a 40b as long as we are being so aggressive with housing anyway be a long time before we see a 40b so so that the board understands when if somebody comes to me looking to make something work and they have to go for a variance um I'm trying to present the best Avenue for them moment I'm not trying to stop them in any way it's their property they want to try to get something we just trying to do it the best way we can for sometimes it's it ends up being a little hotter than than others that's all and one other thing to when the adus um I think what Littleton currently has 12200 ft they allow for an Adu I think it's 1200 yeah you should try to make sure you keep that yeah that's a good answer it stays away from it's keep the people away from the variants even though the people you know if Mar if Mara wants 900 that extra th th000 ft or 1100 ft is the difference of people in a lot of these 8os they did see a lot of that yeah that's a really good qu a really good comment because 900 is small and everybody wants the extra room for the grandchild or the old care or the caregiver yeah and so I think I think that's a really good idea I just hardly end up me for a couple my kids I'm going to just I'm just going to take the Liberty if you don't mind of reporting back to the planning board that yes we would love to be invited to a joint meeting and yes we all have feelings about this and would like to weigh in okay sure yeah do you want to vote for us to vote to tell you to do that nope I just want to be sure that you don't think I'm running off half cck tonight I haven't started drinking yet okay so I make with that comment in mind I make a motion to aour that's a really good thing anybody else all those in favor that drink nice to meet Bo thank you nice you nice to meeting you Henry