Okay, we're on the air. The judge is welcome to the meeting of the Longhill Township Planning Board. Uh we will uh commence immediately. We have a full agenda. Madam Secretary, would you mind reading their notices?
Absolutely. Number one, call to order and statement of compliance. Adequate notice of this meeting or hearing has been provided by posting a copy of the public meeting or hearing dates on the municipal bulletin board and website by sending a copy to the Echo Sentinel newspaper and by filing a copy with the municipal clerk. Number two, standard
board procedures. Any meeting or hearing conducted by the board is a quasi judicial proceeding. Any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board may legally consider in reaching a decision and decorum appropriate to a judicial meeting or hearing must be maintained at
all times. Number three, three, meeting cutoff. Announcement is made that as a matter of procedure, it is the intention of the planning board not to continue any matter past 10:30 p.m. at any regular or special meeting or hearing of the board unless a motion is passed by the members then present to extend the
meeting or hearing to a later specified cutoff time. Number four, electronic devices. All in attendance are asked to mute cell phones or any electronic devices as to not interrupt the proceedings. Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Amen. Okay. Roll call. Miss Dill is excused this evening. Mr.
Hans here. Committeeman Lavender present. Mr. Laario here. Miss Oans here. Mr. Opala is excused this evening. Vice Chairman Jones present. Chairman Richardson here. Chairman, we have a quorum. Thank you very much.
Okay, I turn your attention to our first agenda item, which is agenda item number seven. Uh this is associated with the resolution for suitcase bakery application number 25-20p. you should have all had in your uh
packets and uh you may have hard copies of this resolution that was drafted up. If you have any comments, please share. Just a missing comma on the date. You got that? Yeah. Under a board action September 9th
should have a comma right after. Sorry about missing that. Okay. You can go or I can go. We got the same ones. Okay, go. Okay, get that one. Um, I only found two grammar changes.
One on page one, the second whereas Mhm. it says, "Where is the applicant request minor site plan approval the requested relief in connection with its proposal to Yep. convert." Okay.
Then on page two, I think it's the third whereas the last line it says single family residential uses are found. It says two. I think it should be on.
Yeah. Opposite. Sure. On those were the only typographical things I saw. One of these days I'm going to have no typos. Yeah. And that's not going to happen. self group crowd. Man,
I had um a question on page two for the third whereas pardon me the um last sentence uh would be mostly sold off site. The larger orders may be picked up on site.
Did we decide at a pre-arranged time? Did the applicant say that would be pre-arranged? Any pickup orders on site would be pre-arranged? I believe that was a condition of approval that they would be uh we created a a time window.
Yeah, we have window the time window is there and then only one pickup at a time. Yeah, I thought we had said pre I think that covers it and that would if that is a change it would have to be made on page four. Um
the last line other than pre-arranged order pickups still would be in that same delivery window with one within the window. Yes, it's just the word pre-arranged or not. I believe I believe it was the
representation of the applicant that that was going to be arranged ahead of time, right? Um, so I don't see any issues with it. Let me ask because there attorneys in attendance, Mr. Zelli, do you have any issues to adding the word pre-arranged
anywhere in this in this resolution? That one's not working. Is it nice and loudly postponed on the applicant? I have no objection to change. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Zill. Appreciate it. Okay. So, we can add that to condition uh
Yeah. So, condition five on page five, the top, the hours of order pickups shall be limited to September. I think it was here and Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, perfect. Okay. Yeah. So, scratch that page two also. Page two and
maybe more than one place. Okay. So, page two, fourth whereas clause, last line, insert the word pre-arranged after the word though. So, will be mostly sold offsite though. Pre-arranged larger orders may be picked up on site.
And then page four, item uh Roman numeral 3 at the bottom. Other than order or other than pre-arranged order pickups, no retail activity shall occur on the property. Sound good? Sounds good to me. Okay.
On on page four, um the next to last line, other than pre-arranged order pickups. Yep. That's what you're saying. And on page two, um the larger larger orders may be picked up on site when
pre-arranged or pre-arranged orders. I think pre-arranged orders. I got I got those. Any other comments, questions? Do I hear a motion to approve this amended resolution?
I motion to approve the resolution as amended. One second. I'll second. Okay. Okay. So, we have a motion by Mr. Hans and second by Bob. Okay. Mr. Hans. Yes. Mr. Labor.
Yes. Uh, Miss Ojens, yes. Chairman Richardson, yes. And Vice Chairman J. Yes. Motion carries. Great. Thank you. Okay. We have uh two
ordinances uh before us this evening for master plan consistency review. Uh I wondered if Chris you could just outline again just real quickly briefly for the board uh what we are to uh review here
and approve. Absolutely Mr. Chairman. So yes. So uh we call this master plan consistency review. Um I say I would suggest we take them one at a time. Um so before you are two ordinances that have been introduced by the governing body on first reading as part of the MLUL's process for
adopting land use ordinances. The second step in that process is for the ordinance to come to the planning board to make a determination as to whether or not the ordinance is consistent or not inconsistent with the township's master plan. That's the standard, not inconsistent. So, it's not technically a public
hearing, though, you know, up to the discretion of the board if it wants to allow some public comment. Though, the the idea is that the public comment period is at second reading before the governing body. So, that's really about it. And from what I understand, I think both of these ordinances originated from the board. So you guys probably already seen. Yes,
that is correct. Yeah, correct. Okay, thanks Chris. My pleasure. All right, so let's discuss the first ordinance. That's ordinance 576-25. This is an ordinance amending section 124.1 of the township land use ordinance
regarding apartments in business zones. Any questions or comments about this? Again, all of you should have seen and it was presented the way that we wrote it, correct? At the end. Yes. Um, I have a comment. Um, I I think the title business zones
is um not very clear since business zones also include the BD, O L, and several overlay zones. So I propose that the title be regarding apartments
in villages and Hamlet since this addresses villages in Hamlet. Okay. To say business zone is too broad. Oh it's it's Mr. Ch. So I I think they're doing that miss. So
the uh the title of the ordinance is business zones, but if you look at the text, they're changing it from apartments and business zones to apartments in village and handling zones. Correct. Can we do that the ordinance as well? No, the title is is announcing the
change. You can't change something that hasn't been changed. So the title of the ordinance can't be changed. No, that's not the title of the ordinance. That's that's introduction. original tie. So then it's referring to the P. It's referring to the present state before the future
amendment. Yes. Right. That's the current statement. Okay. So So look down below for those are going to be the zone changes which we crossed out. Yep. Um yeah, it's showing you the track changes. Apartments and business slash village
and hamlet zones. So even though it says business zones, it doesn't have to be consistent. The well the ordinance now is apartments and business. So what are they changing? They're changing the apartments and business zones or they change the
they can't change an ordinance that has changed ordinance. They just changing specific business zones business zones but I I yield to your expertise. Okay. Yeah. No, I mean it is it's it is wordy now
given it's a little confusing, you know, with the title and then the changes, but just for clarity just for clarity, the the reference here on the agenda is to the current uh ordinance that is on the books, correct? That's the one we're going to amend. And
then we will submit it back once we do our not inconsistent review of this ordinance. It will go back to the TC and there we'll see the name change take place. It'll take on the new name which is then referencing the villages and
hamlets which is what you are uh going to uh what you've just brought up. So it'll be changed at a later date. Yes. Yes. Yep. Once it's adopted. Okay. Any other questions or comments? Okay, great. So, I think we need then a
motion. Yep. Motion for uh that this particular ordinance 5 57 576-25 is not inconsistent with the 2023 master plan. So, move second.
And just for to note, uh Deb will have a we have a template ordinance that you guys have or a template resolution that we've used before to transmit to the governing body. So, it would just be uh it's connected to the agenda. Oh, it's there. All right. Yeah. So then, uh, yeah, adopting that
resolution as well would be part of the motion. Okay. I'll do the roll call. My name Lavender. Yes. Mr. Hans, yes. Mr. Labberio, yes. Ojins. Yes. And Vice Chairman Jones, yes. Chairman Richardson, yes. Motion carries.
Great. Okay. Our next ordinance for master plan consistency review is ordinance number 577-25. This is an ordinance amending the township land use ordinance regarding the remaining of the single family
residential village and hamlet and light industrial zone districts and amending supplementing repealing and revising the land use ordinance to reflect the rename zones. I will open this up for questions or
comments. It's fairly straightforward. This is relabeling zone names. So, fairly straightforward. I guess it's my night to make comments. Um, I found the strikethroughs confusing
and not Yeah, it had to do with the font. Not you picked up on that when you read it. Missing in some areas. It looks like a two and then there's a four. The strike through looks like it goes to the four. Yeah, that's right. And such.
So I I propose that um that perhaps in the changing of each of the names of the zones uh that we keep the old one with an asterisk and then clarify by asterric what the new name is and I'll be happy to write that up for you rather than
strikethroughs. Um I'm against that uh simply because there is a template in the master plan that articulates what the old and what the new is. That's true. The strikethroughs won't exist in the ordinance once the ordinance is adopted. Correct. The strikethroughs are just simply to show
what's been changed. What would change? As Tom said, the table kind of makes it all clear anyway. Yeah. So, this isn't what the way out and the underlines won't know that. That would be very confusing. It's not aware that this is the dirty version, right? Um I also
that's supposed to be the clear version, not to my eyes. alone there. I I also because this is a dirty version maybe this will change also that uh when we enumerate the zone districts that um we
do columns with the old and the new and the explanation but that probably'll be taken care of with the lack of strikethroughs. I think it'll be clear. I mean that that's in that's in the master plan. what is the old ordinance name or what
the old zone name and what is proposed to be it to be changed to. It's not really appropriate in the in the ordinance. I mean really what your task here is tonight is to determine whether what you have before you is not
inconsistent with what's in the master plan and it basically the zone changes were listed in the master plan. Right. So, so for historical purposes, we can use the master plan to see what the old were. Yes. Um I'm sure there were previously named
versions of the zones that we don't know what they are anymore. Uh we can always lean on Dennis uh who can probably uh articulate that back to us. But this I just want to reiterate this is the first step in starting the renaming of the
zones in accordance to the master plan. This is going to impact other ordinances where the old name is reflected and the new name needs to be reflected. This is also going to springboard the zoning map. So, you're going to start to see that the next thing after this is we're
going to take a look at those parcels of land that uh are kind of islands in the zones to bring them into uh the appropriate zone. So that is just a little additional information for for you uh the board as well as the public.
But um from this is the very first step in starting that process. And just to just to piggyback on that, one of the reasons we had to do this portion was because of the renaming of the first ordinance that you looked at tonight because it mentioned zones that
we're proposing to change the name of. So if we why do it twice? You know, essentially we're we're putting new standards for 124.1. So we thought we should have the correct references that we're going to change the zones to. So that's
only the starting block. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I I had sent you comments, Tom, too. Um that there's a mismatch where it says zone residential versus residential zone. There's different um zones in the
two uh we'll pick that up in the in as we go through these ordinances as we touch them. So you read in the future ordinances. That is correct. Okay, good. So that change will be made and just last it's a gift that'll keep on giving. Yeah, I'm sure we'll looking at this for
a while. Um, and then I just propose to that when we do separate it out just to make it easier to read if we can to separate the overlay zones from the true zones. But that's just for a matter of clarity for anyone who's reading it.
It's not critical. Some of those, as you're pointing out, will change over time. So for instance, the TIFA site that will change from an LI zone into it's right now an overlay zone, right? So that'll take on that because it'll no longer be an LI zone
or whatever it's going to be. It's a light industry right now until it changes into um uh once construction starts to go there and it's no longer an uh light industry zone. It'll be a multi-purpose. I forget what the name of that is, but you dash. But it was my
understanding that that's an overlay. It is an overlay. It's not a change of zone. It's a the zone is what the future will be. overlay because that's what the future will be. So you'll see some of this changing the we're not changing the overlay at this point. Okay,
that'll be a future. Okay, any other comments questions? Tom, would you like the honor to make a motion? And there was no amendments, right? So good. Motion to approve ordinance 577-25
as not inconsistent with the master plan. So moved and second. Okay. Vice Chairman Jones. Yes. Lavender. Yes. Mr. Hans. Yes. Mr. Lavario. Yes. Miss Ojins. Yes.
Chairman Richardson. Yes. Excellent. So, Mr. Chair, I appreciate everyone's due diligence in this beginning step of a larger process. Uh, and I app I just want to say I appreciate everyone's hard work and even the extra
questions that we're having here. So great. Thank you. Well, thank you for leading us down the the path to uh getting all this uh consistent with the master plan. Uh okay, we are moving right along to
our application this evening. Uh this is an application for a minor subdivision with variances. This uh application was carried from uh September 9th, 2025. This is for block 10202
lot 12 zone R-2. This is the 53 Indian Run and Heritage Road application number 25-9P. Here the applicant is proposing to subdivide the property into two building lots and construct two single family
residences. Mr. Mr. Chairman, I just point out for the record uh the applicant here did notice actually for the September 9th, 2025 meeting. Uh we did adjourn it and the the matter was carried to this evening with no further notice being required. Uh everything was done properly ahead of the September 9th
meeting. So the board so the jurisdiction to hear and decide the case in my legal opinion. Just need to get that out there and I'll uh turn it over to Mr. Zeli and let him do his introduction and then we'll get going. Good evening, Mr. Chair, members of the board, board professionals, members of
the community, thank you all for attending. Frederick's Ali Post Pollock on behalf of the applicants this evening. This is an application for minor subdivision approval. I don't know if that mic's working. We got a light on. Is it working now?
I just kind of turn it up a little bit. Get it closer to my person. Is that better? Yes, much better. Thank you. Again, this is for application of Freddy Espinosa and Dina Barbara. The property is Indian Run and Heritage Roads Corner.
It's your block 10202, lot 12 in your R2 zone. It's an application for minor subdivision approval with bulk variances to subdivide the property into two building lots to raise the existing structures on the property which consist of a residence a shed and a detached
garage and to construct two single family residences. Subject property is the remainder lot from a cluster major subdivision named Millington Nolles that was approved by this board back in 1977. Copy of the filed map for the subdivision is included in our application materials and one of our
witnesses will be discussing that this evening as well. Prior to that subdivision, the property was a private farm which hosted the existing structures. Pursuant to the cluster subdivision approval, 20 lots were created, all but one of which, which is a subject lot, are significantly undersized for the zone. The balance of
the land was dedicated to the township as open space and remain such, hence the nature of a cluster application. The applicants proposed to divide the property into two lots. Under our revised plan, and I'll reference back the original plan uh showed the two
homes, one facing on Heritage, one facing on Indian Run, now we have them both facing on Indian Run uh which addressed some issues uh with the original plan. I'll also just mention offhand that the sizes of both homes uh are significantly less than was originally planned.
Each lot will be substantially larger than all but one of the 19 lots created 1977. Only lot 16, which is.97 acres, is even close to the R2 zones 1acre required lot size. Existing lots 10.1 through 10.12
are all less than 6 acres. Uh and lots 9, 10,3, 11, 13, 14, and 15 are all.7 acres or less in area. Our proposed lots, while still less than the one acre, are significantly larger than all of the existing lots except for lot 16.
As I mentioned, our proposed lot 1201 is.94 acres, close to the required 1acre, and our proposed lot 12.02 is82 acres. Accordingly, our proposed lots are fully consistent, in fact, greater than consistent from a lot area perspective with the scheme of the
neighborhood as it was designed in 1977. Similarly, each proposed lot's front yard will be less than is required in the R2 zone, but will nonetheless be larger than those of the other lots in the neighborhood, and the lot width for proposed 12.02 will also be less than required in the zone, but again, it will
be larger than those of the surrounding lots. Our revised design eliminates any need for a variance for disturbance of steep slopes. It does require a variance for distance from the house to the steep slopes, although the distance is approved to the existing condition. Right now we have uh the building
actually in the steep slopes uh and we are going to at least have 8 ft in between. So we're going from 0 to 8. So certainly a marked improvement from what exists now. Finally, while the original design would required a D1 use variance for the home
on proposed lot 1201 which had to be front board adjustment, uh the revised design only calls for bulk variants and this is for height uh in that particular building. It's because of the slope uh and because your ordinance as you know measures hype from the lowest possible spot uh to the top as opposed from an
average grade which is actually more common. But again we are only going to be at a uh C variance level and our design professionals will give a little more detail about where we are in terms of the actual uh Miss Laney identified another variance in her report for having home
designs that are virtually identical aesthetically from the exterior. Uh, but Miss Polmo, our architect, will present a revised design for one of the houses in order to address this issue. I have two witnesses this evening. William Hollows, our engineer, Jennifer Polarmo, our architect. One of our applicants,
Miss Barbara, is also present this evening, but I'm not intending to elicit a direct testimony from her. And unless anyone has questions for me, I'd ask that the witnesses be sworn. Yeah, bring them both up. We'll do them all at once. Okay, all four of you raise your right
hands for me. Do all four of you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to provide will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So, I hope you got it. I do. I do. Okay, great. And before we go any further, just want to ask a question. Are there any attorneys in the audience? Is anybody represented by an attorney and objecting to this application?
Seeing none. Okay, good to go. Start with Mr. in front of this board a few times, but uh just for the record, would you please give us your credentials? Yes. Excuse me. William Hollows from Murphy and Hollows Associates. My
business address is 192 Central Avenue in Sterling. I am a licensed professional engineer, land surveyor, and planner in the state of New Jersey and I have appeared before this board and the zoning board in Hill Township. Ask that Mr. Holl be accepted as an
expert in the field of civil engineering. Any objection? You're good. Lord, for the record, uh, you've been provided with a packet of photographs. I will indicate for the record that I personally took the photograph several months ago, obviously prior to the
filing of the application. Uh they did accurately portray what was uh present at the time. So subject to seasonal differences uh I believe they're still accurate, but I'm going to ask Mr. Hollows to take us through them uh based upon his familiarity with the property.
Photo number one is standing at the edge of Heritage Road looking up at the existing structure. And um I'll just go to sheet two on the drawings if
you know it's probably easier. This is a render drawing and should we mark it out as exhibitized? Yeah, that would be A1. So, exhibit color sheet what Bill
and I have for the exhibits that we're going to actually Thank you. Well, Mr. Zo, why don't we go through all the exhibits now and then I wait to stop in the middle. Okay.
Okay. So, exhibit A1 is the colorized version of sheet two of the submitted site plan set last revised September 24th, 2025. Original date May 19th, 2025. I'm presuming this is exhibit A2 that you guys would want to introduce. Uh sheet four or colorized version of sheet
four of five of the submitted uh minor subdivision plan set. Uh last revised date September 24th, 2025. Original date May 19th, 2025. And exhibit A3, a highlighted version of sheet four of
five of the uh subdivision plan set you guys submitted. Uh revision date September 24th, 2025. Original date May 19th, 2025. Vice versa. So they're both she revision September. No, I'm
original date May. revision September on all documents you referenced. Correct. Thanks Joe. Sorry if I got time for this. Was there anything else you guys wanted to submit as exhibits as well or is just these three? There are
84 will be a copy of the 1977 map to most recorded map. That's a plan sheet a file map of the cluster subdivision. Okay.
And then A5 which will bring in for architect our revised plan showing the uh changes in order to portray the difference in the two houses. Okay. Look at that that one today's date. What's the 14?
105. Okay. Okay. Thanks, Mr. Just wanted to get all that out of the way so we don't have to stop in the middle. Appreciate that. Proceedings here. Okay. Okay, we're back to the photographs and we have a drawing that we can actually
reference and show you where the photographs were taken. Photo number one would be standing somewhere on the edge of Heritage Road looking up at the existing structure. It shows the existing house and existing
shed. And in the background, you can see a little bit of the existing garage. Photograph number two is basically in the same lo in the same location
looking directly at the house structure. Again, you can see the house structure. You can see the shed and to the rear is the garage. Photograph number three is similar to two. It's just that you're a little bit closer to the existing structure.
It's the view from Heritage Road looking north. Photograph number four is pretty much like almost standing at the uh just a little bit up Indian Road looking at what would be the front of the house and
the that faces Indian Road and then the the house the side of the house that's facing Heritage Road. And in the background, you've got another view of the shed. Photograph number five. That's looking
directly from Indian Run at the front of the house. Photo number six is back at the standing at the intersection of Indian Run and Heritage Road and looking at an angle towards the house. You're looking at a
northeasterly direction at that point. Photograph number seven is standing in Indian Run Road, Indian Run, and looking directly at the front of the house. Photograph number eight is a little
further up Indian Run looking at the driveway entrance. And then you can see just to the right is the house and about in the center of the photograph is the garage. Photograph number nine is a photo of the garage standing in a driveway about
where the intersection of the driveway is and the backout area into the garage. Photograph number 10 is standing in the driveway near the garage looking at the side of the house in the and what I
would call the back of the house and you can see the roof of the shed and you can see one of the homes across the street across the street of Heritage Road. Photograph number 11 is standing in in
Indian Run looking in a northerly direction up the street to the right you can see there's a a box there that's the mailbox for the house on the subject property and that's where the driveway goes into the into the
property photograph number 12 is standing in Heritage Road facing in a westerly direction towards the intersection the intersection just to the midway up that photograph on the right.
You see the homes there along Heritage Road. Photograph number 13 is you turn around and you look in the easterly direction um up Heritage Road. The gray house that's in that photograph on the left towards left side is the adjoining
property to to the subject property. Thank you. Mr. Hollows, would you now take us through the existing conditions? Yes. Existing conditions known as 53 Indian Run.
It is block 10202, lot 12. It's positioned at the intersection of Heritage Road and Indian Run and be on the northeasterly side of that intersection. The property contains 76,392
ft or 1.75 acres, approximately 250 ft deep by 295 ft wide. It's improved with a frame dwelling, which you saw quite a few pictures of.
You've got a garage. You've got a shed on that property. And you've got a paved driveway that comes in off of Indian Run more towards the uh northerly side of that property.
The property is in the R2 zone. And this property was part of a cluster development. Some people call it cluster some density modification. Whereas you have you you could reduce
the size of the lot in half. You could reduce the size of the lot width. Instead of 150, you could go get go down to 100 ft. Um and the setbacks were set at 50 feet. A reduction from 75 ft. So that's that's important because the
streetscape for all the existing houses on Indian Run and Heritage Road have 50 foot setbacks. When that's done, Bill, what is the trade-off? Why is that allowed? Because the in this instance, the uh
town received approximately 20 acres of land. They've got 10 on one side and nine Oh. 10 and change and Oh my god. I think it's because
Okay. All right. exactly where you are and don't get close. No idea what to do with that. Never get too close to an attorney. You should know about for engineers. So, the town in this instance got 20 acres of land.
Here it comes. It was doesn't really show. Um, I I do have a drawing which a drawing which is actually the subdivision done in 1977.
And I can show you where those that land was dedicated to the town but basically for open space although there's a detention basin on the property and there's a a sewer pump station on the property. Mr. Charles, this is exhibit A4 you're
referring to. We have it on. Let's mark that as A4. It's okay. It's A4. The property again is in at the intersection of Indian Road and Heritage Road. Indian Run and Heritage Road, I'm sorry. And the town received land on the
south side of Heritage Road and that was 9.4 acres. And they also got some land dedicated to them which is 10.6 acres. So they've got 20 acres that was dedicated to the town for open space.
And Bill, just for the record, the subject property, although larger than any of the create other created lots, was not part of the give back to the town, was not to be created as a parkland or anything or open space. That was just remained as the remainder lot, still privately owned at the time.
That's correct. Okay. what the applicant would like to do if everyone's clear on what's existing conditions. What the applicant would like to do and this is exhibit A2 you're referring to A2. Okay, gotcha.
would be to remove the existing structures on the property, the house, the shed, the garage, subdivide the property into two new building lots, and put two houses up,
two new homes on that property. The the corner lot we've got designated as 12.01 1 would contain 40,761 square ft. So it's a little less than an acre. And again, the density modification
allowable would be 22,000. Wires are getting crossed. That's what it is. They need to come back. Do you want to Fred and Bill just share that mic? Do you want us you want us to share a microphone?
You don't think so? too bad. Can we give Fred the mic that's on the uh the deis? Okay, maybe. Yeah, at least take one of them out of the equation. Is that one off now? Let's try this.
Bill, before we go any further, let me just uh clarify something. And I I think I misstated at the beginning. This a 1acre zone. It's technically a 45,000 foot zone. Correct. Yeah. Okay. That's why you split it in half at 22500. It is a 40 R2 is a 45,000 foot zone. Um
we meet the lot width requirements for the R2 zone on this this corner lot. And we're also going to set the house at 25 ft off the side yard lot. which was also the
requirement for an R2 zone. What we're seeking is a front yard variance in the lot area variance. Um because again, as I said before, the important thing is the streetscape here. If we were to push this house back to 75
ft, it when you drive down the street, you'd have houses at 50 and then all of a sudden you've got houses set back um quite a distance further than the existing houses in that in the neighborhood. We also would meet the rear yard
setback. So, um, we're we're looking at a, uh, lot area and a lot front yard setback requirement on this corner lot. Is that two front yard setback variances, one for each?
Yes. Yes, there would be. Okay. But can I just ask very quickly? You got Yes to lot width, but you just said it conforms. Well, there's a variance on the No, the lot width. We have more than 150 ft for lot width. It's really the
setback in the lot area. The lot width on 1202. Is he still talking about the first one? Yeah, he's talking about the corner. You're only talking about the corner lot right now. Yeah. Yeah. The interior lot, which we've labeled 12.02, O2
has a lot proposed lot size of 35,631 square ft. So that would require a variance under the R2 zone but substantially larger than the cluster allowable and it would have 143 foot wide lot. So
it would require a variance for lot width where 150 ft is required in the in the R2 zone. And again, we're looking for that front yard setback. And again, Bill, these front yard
setbacks and that lot with all of these are in excess of what the lots under the cluster zone have. Is that correct? Yes. Under the cluster zone, um, you're allowed 50 foot front yard setback and 100 foot lot width. And again, we're trying to the rear yard
setback would be fine. and we're to give some space between the lots. And then since they are oversized lots, we're showing the the sideyards to meet the R2 zone of um 25 ft. Okay. So, so if I could just pause you guys real quick just to keep score. So
for 12.01 1 variances being sought. Uh lot area, westerly front yard setback, southerntherly front yard setback, build uh I guess we'll get to that with the architect, the building height, and then the uh the setback of the critical areas, which I'm sure you're going to get to. And then for 1202, it's lot
area, lot width, front yard setback, and then building height again. Right. Is that it variances go? Yes. But I believe strongly that I can adjust the a little bit of the site grading to make that lot
height go away for the interior lot that variance for the building height for 122. So that may be for both of them. And that that's a good question or good comment because we are seeking a height
variance for the corner lot and it's really because the the lot falls off. It's in a slope, right? So we we're instead of 35 ft, we're seeing a 38 foot right and it's really just the one corner. The
rest of the house would comply. And there is this triangular area in the behind the house on the corner is a steep slope area. Um we're going to propose to disturb it slightly but well under the allowable
that we are allowed under the ordinance to disturb a steep slope. And what's the difference between the slopes and the current buildings and the slopes and the proposed building? Pretty much stay the same. the Aren't we zero in the uh sleeps with the
shed? I believe it is. The shed the shed sits right in the steep. That's what I'm saying. So, we have a we don't have any setback at all under existing conditions. We're going to have 8.6 ft or so with Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. Yeah. the shed was
in the in the steep slope area and then there's this one little spot um to the rear of the house from the deck to the steep slopes that were not 10 ft away. And can you take us through the drainage
on the site as proposed? Yeah, that's uh you have this as a I think you have this as a an exhibit. Unfortunately, unfortunately for me,
when these plans were printed out, a layer of the CAD work did not come on. And that layer showed the drywall system. But what I'm proposing is a dry well system that will take the water from the roof of the house
and store 4 in of rainfall from the roof of the house into three dry wells on each lot. Just for the record, Bill, is this A3? Yes. Yeah, that's what I I was just about to get. I don't want to interrupt him. Yes.
And from the drywall systems, since there's an existing storm drainage system in the street on Heritage Road in Indian Run, we're going to have an overflow system. So the if the drywalls were to overflow in a really heavy rain
event that it would go into the storm drainage system that's in the street and then get carried away. And that is something that's permitted. It's not we're not seeking relief to be able to do that. Correct. No, no, that's something that's permitted. And we would put a small private easement across a
10-ft wide easement across the front of the 12.01 so that uh we can carry that pipe down to the corner from lot 122 from 1202. Okay. Yes. Bill, just to stay on that point,
if the overflows did not directly connect for the northerly lot, the overflow by grade would be into the curb line and into the gutter for approximately 150 feet to that same
structure. Yes, that would be correct. So, we're eliminating the potential icing condition in the winter by making a direct connection. Yeah. Yes, that's one way to look at it. And then and also for percolation, if we do not have a
decent percolation for the system, we could um still drain the use the drywalls, drain them through a small orifice to drain it the uh drywalls out. Okay. There's enough depth. You can use them as detention if they
don't infiltrate within 72 hours. Yes. When you do testing later. Yes. Okay. And then for the southerntherly lot, the direct connection alternative to that, the the overland pattern would be easterly to the next
basin some 100 plus feet down heritage instead. It's down heritage at the uh end of the overflows are making direct connection to eliminate uh the incumbrance into the the road system. That's correct. for we were fortunate
enough to be able to do that in this instance and I think it makes a better project all all in all and just for the record you mentioned that for 1201 uh we are going to have a height variance uh and that is primarily due to the way the ordinance is in this
town that it goes from the lowest uh point and rather than the average grade correct correct is it fair to say that if we did take it from the average grade uh there would not be a need for a height variance? Most likely not. Okay. Thank you. Now,
I think we get up to the planners letter. Some comments and um Miss Lehane's October 10th letter. That's correct. Okay.
I think we've gone over number two on on that in that review letter has to do with building height and I think we've gone over that. Uh I feel confident that we can make the interior lot comply with a 35
foot height. And we are still seeking the variance because of the slope on the property. at that one corner. I think also the comment relates to uh discrepancy between the architectural plans and the Well, we will straighten that out.
Okay. Uh item number three has to do with critical areas. No, let me just I just because this is important to have it on the record is there's no scenario where we would be more than 10%. It would be 38.5 which would take us up to a D variance. Is that correct? No.
Okay. Number three has to do with critical areas. Comment on critical areas. And there on this property of 1.75 acres, there's 3,137 square ft of steep slopes. And that's
this odd shaped triangular shaped proper uh segment. That proposed lot has 40,761 square feet. So, um, minusing the 3137 gives us
37,624 square ft. And that's all contiguous because the way the critical areas is, it's in the middle of the lot. So, you've got um a lot of contiguous area around that and there are no steep slopes um
criteria on the interior lot. I think item number four is an architectural question. Item number five has to do with landscaping. At this point, we don't have a landscaping plan, but uh there are a lot
of circles on this this property. A lot of circles. If you've been out to the site, I would say that a good part, especially the trees along Indian Run are in decline. There's a lot of evergreens where they're competing
for sun and there's not a whole lot of needles on those trees. My thoughts were to replace what we were going to take out along Indian Run with new street shade trees and also along Heritage Road with new straight uh
street. There's really not much along Heritage Run. There's a big open spa space of lawn there and we could put shade trees in that area. There would obviously be some uh foundation plantings which is typically ornamental
trees and and shrubs along the front of the house. And then uh let's say the the corner lot, the one on Indian or Heritage Road would also need some landscaping along that uh that side of the house.
And for the record, we would uh be fine with a condition that uh the landscaping be subject to a committee or to a designated professional. Who wants to volunteer? He does. Quick. We'll we'll jump to the comment in my
letter to kind of rough that out. Mhm. I had identified about 46 trees on private property between 6 in and 36 in from your plans. Um, one tree 8 in
within the the Indian run right away which is in conflict with the the southerntherly homes driveway. So that southerntherly that one tree be subject to you know um the rights of a township tree for replacement. The others would
be subject to the the tree removal registration uh for a lot which I think has restrictions on each year how many can be removed in a year which you are in excess of in one year I think
if you split them in two and put them over both lots. So I think some form of replacement mitigation would be appropriate um which is what you've essentially stipulated to. So like we can work on that landscaping being
ornamental to the tree um the streetscape on both Indian and heritage consistent with the development. And then like you said I would look at that bare area of the site that exists now which would provide some rear screening
for anyone that lives east on Harry. Right. That's perfectly acceptable. And that would be something if the board were to approve this application when we did a the plot plan for a building permit. We could add it on to the plot plans. Okay.
I think you're at six on Miss Lanny's. AC units would be in the in the rear of the house. Um thinking behind the garage in that that general area for the AC units. I don't know at this time whether they're going to have a
generator. Uh would you stipulate that they would be screened either through landscaping or fencing especially from public view? Yes. Yes. And Bill, just for the record, we are nowhere near having coverage issues. So the addition of those types of features
would not affect coverage. It'll affect coverage, but it won't put us into a variance correct situation. That kind of goes to item number seven also. um comment was to have a walkway from the the driveway around to the back because there are some steps that go
down to a basement entrance and that would be something again if the board were to approve this application that we could add as part of the plot plan or we could add it as part of compliance. Either way, I think we could we could do it.
We can stipulate to that. Is that on both lots or 12 just 12.01? No, both of them. Both of them have it. Number eight, we have sewer connections or will have sewer connections. There is one existing sewer connection to the house and that is from the
existing structure to Heritage Road. We would we're not proposing a septic system. We understand that hopefully the after many years there will be some sewer connections available in the near future. But even under the existing
rules on a minor subdivision, we're allowed to have a second one. Correct. Yes. Okay. Yes. Correct. The creation of the new lot for the number creation of the new lot for the number of bedrooms would fall below the
threshold. So you would qualify for connection now during the moratorium. Right. Thank you. And number nine is an architectural question. And number 10, Fred, do you want to?
So, we have not uh had direct connection with the historical uh committee. Uh we are certainly happy to uh accommodate them in any way of documentation. Um they can have access to the site to uh memorialize whatever they would want.
That's certainly not a problem. Uh I don't know if this uh committee ever wishes to take uh actual items uh or or portions of uh anything architectural. You know, we'll whatever they would like to do, we will certainly work with them. We have no problem with that being a condition of approval.
Just for the record, I just want to make sure it's clear. It's that because we've got some different committees that this would be the historic preservation advisory committee that would u provide that input. Okay. Thank you.
And just to mention, I think previously they've just taken photos of the property before. That's our understanding, but as I said, if there's anything that they see that they would like to preserve for museum or something like that, that's perfectly fine as well. It shouldn't be too intrusive.
Is there any historical significance with the property? Uh according to Miss Laney's report, it is designated as category one significant historical value. Is that because of the age? Uh it's because of the age. It goes
back. It's uh cited as being part of the Daniel Carly Farm Manager House uh constructed circa 1850. I'm simply reading that from Miss Lady's report. We have not done any exploration of that ourselves. It's not protected in any way
from development or anything along those lines. Understood. Thank you. And Mr. Holl, is there anything further to address on Mr. Vuch's report? Um, I I think we're I think I hit upon
the uh to me that the two big items I think were the storm drainage and um may need to add a note that um he's asking for leaf gutter guards of some sort for the gutters so so the
leaves don't get in there which does tend to foul up the drywalls if you have continual leaves getting in there. But um we can agree to that. Stipulate to that. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So I had the standard subdivision comments you're familiar with in your
applications in front of me. um stipulations on 32, 33, 34, 35, and 36, which is, you know, monumentation, meets and bounds, coordination before they're recorded on both the lots and on the
easement, coordination with the tax assessor on the lot designation, and then AutoCAD files for tax map updates. Um under technical review 4.1
stipulated regarding the tree replacement of what we just discussed. Uh 42, 43 and 44 are essentially just factual statements uh for the board's understanding. So 45,
46, 77 through 10 would be the stipulations. Again, those are common stipulations to our approvals at the zoning board and then also if a subdivision like this um regarding some of our township standards
and then 51 being outside agency soil erosion that would everything else was covered in the testimony. Mr. Hollers, just for the record, uh we can stipulate to 4.6 through 4.10. Yes. Excuse me. Yes.
Thank you. And uh the other ones too, right? Four. Yeah. Yeah. What's question for the applicant? You guys are going have the other ones 3.2 through 3.6. Yes. Okay. Gotcha. Have no further questions for Mr.
Hollows at this time. I just have one. Yeah. I want to open it up to the board. Are Liz and Joe, are are you good with your questions? Great. Yes, please. I'd like to open up to the board. Just one quick clarification. You mentioned about the setback on
engine run existing today of 50 ft on average. Not this property, but the other properties were 50 ft. Correct. Yes. I didn't hear Did you say the same about Heritage Road as well? Yes, that's part of the the subdivision that was created. That was the uh setback.
So, it's on both roads. Yes. Right. Thank you. Just clarify. I just had a question. Um, in the planners report, did we address point number four with the um, no windows on the second floor of the residence?
That's an architectural question and they'll they'll address it later. Address that. Yes. Got it. I have a question on the dry well drainage system. Uh, do you have any kind of guesstimate as to where the water table is in this area and if a dry
well is going to be appropriate? We haven't done soil logs to this point. But what we could do if we needed to do, we could um shorten the drywalls up. They typically they come in three-foot
sections and typically you use the six foot. Um, but we could use three-foot sections and um, you know, that would only be down below the ground about 4 and 1/2 ft to the the
bottom of the drywall. So, I guess along with drainage, what is the incremental effect with this proposed development on drainage to this area, the neighborhood? There shouldn't be any effect to the neighborhood in the sense that the
existing house, all the roof and and the garage and the driveway. There's no storm water management system. All the roof leaders come down and they just go out on the ground. Um, I think we're taking it a much a
much better step with the system that we're proposing and the fact that we can get it into the storm drainage system that goes down Heritage Road and then it goes down toward it goes down towards the river. And have you reviewed to see if there is
evidence of flooding? I I saw Joe that this doesn't hit a flood hazard. Correct. Uh but do you have any evidence of flooding in this particular neighborhood? Have you looked into that with past experience in the town?
Past experience I have not noted any problems. I mean there may be times when under heavy rainfall where there's water in the street before it gets into the storm drainage system and then drains off. But I
it generally slopes all from Valley Road down to Heritage Road and that and um I would call this a modern subdivision basically because it has a nice storm drainage system in it already.
um as opposed to some of the older subdivisions in town. And it is collected and it goes through a detention basin and out towards the river. So there's further detention downstream of the public road collection
system. That's my understanding. Yes, Mr. Hollis. to to put maybe a finer point on it. Uh if we compare uncaptured drainage between the existing condition where everything is uncaptured uh to
what we are looking at under the proposed plan, we're actually reducing. We still have a net reduction. Yeah, there would be actually because everything's free from the existing system. Okay. Thank you.
Other questions, comments? Yes, please. Not to harp on the setbacks, but um the northern property could be set back further. The corner lot probably hits a critical slope. But my point is you you
said 50 ft is a variance, right? Yes. But that's more, if I can phrase it this way, that's more in keeping with the rest of the properties in the neighborhood. Yeah. That's why I mentioned the word streetscape. It kind of matches what's there already. So when you drive down the street, the houses are, you know,
right now they're all lined up. So technically the northern one you could probably move back if you had to, but yes, you're keeping it in keeping with the neighborhood, which is why you're going to keep you went with 52 feet. Yes.
Oh, sorry. Yes, 52. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, regarding the southern property, there's a sidewalk that runs along Heritage all the way to the corner
of uh, Heritage and Indian. Um, it doesn't look like it's a very clear view when traffic is flowing that way. It's not a high-speed zone. However, if you're coming down Indian heading south, you may not see somebody
approaching that uh walking on that sidewalk because there's a tree there right next to the fire hydrant and it looks like a power box. So, is that part of the streetscape where you plan to remove that tree? It wasn't, but it can be.
I would really look at that and just make sure for safety purposes that anyone walking that sidewalk can enter that intersection because it crosses over to the sidewalk on the west side of Indian and continues north and in my
but the existing condition there is not a sidewalk on or is there on the south side of that corner lot? The sidewalk runs from the corner of Indian Run and Heritage and it goes easterly. But is it on the north side of Heritage
or on the south or on both? It doesn't run up north. Just on the north just on this side. Just on the north, right? There's only one sidewalk on That's right. Okay. And it's the same for Indian. It's only on the west side,
not on the east side. The sidewalk I'm sorry. Yeah. The discussions out there. Yeah. Just if you could hold I'm sorry. Just if you could hold down your discussions in the audience because it does interfere with the mics. We're listening to the tape for people at home. Thank you.
So again, on Indian Indian Run, the sidewalk is only on the west side, not on the east side. Correct. Correct. Right. Thank you. And then with the southern property I
had I noticed you have the house facing towards Indian. The reason why you have it facing towards Indian and not heritage is because of that critical slope piece. That's correct. Thank you. And also height.
Yes. Because if you put the house going sorry height. you put the house going facing heritage, you would need a you take it from the lowest the height is based off the lowest exposed of the exposure of the building, right?
We were looking at we looking at D6. It would have been board of adjustment. Yeah. Thank you. And there's no plans to disturb that sidewalk on the southern southern edge of that, right? No. I think it looked like it was in good shape. So like to stay in good shape.
Thank you. That's all I got, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Any others? Other questions at this point for the applicant? The only thing I I wanted just if you could elaborate a little further. You touched on that you were
going to propose some grading because there wasn't a I didn't see a grading plan for the proposed development. Did you talked about grading or is Yeah, sheet four has the grading on it. Okay. I'm sorry. Could you just elaborate a little bit more how you're going to handle that critical area? Is
that going to be graded at all or touched or? No, the majority of it won't be touched other than taking the shed out. Okay. Um there's a little sliver um when we bring the contours around to time into the existing contours. There'll be a
small area that we're going to touch. It's should be lawn at this point. We don't show any trees in that area specifically. Um, and it's we are allowed to disturb a little bit of the critical area. So, we're well under that number.
Great. Well, yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. Yes, please. Um, across the fronts of those properties, there is a bit of a a hill or a rise. Are you planning to do anything reshape that? Because I notice other properties as you continue up
Indian, it's more flat and open. This is not. It seems like it's a little more natural to what the grounds were at the time that that that building was built or they moved the dirt over in that area and that's where they created the high point. We will be removing or taking part of
that slope and flattening it. So for our driveway driveways on the norly side of the So there's a good chance it'll start to mirror that of its neighbors continuing down. I don't think as much as they are. They're quite flat, but we won't it won't be the whole frontage, but it will
be probably half of the house towards and then going in a norly direction, right? And it looks like you'll see it flatten for the driveway and south towards the porch and then as you go past the porch, further south to the corner,
um it's essentially tying That's where I see that with the existing grades a little bit. Just balancing out that a little bit more. Okay. All right. And then chairman, to your point earlier, the dry wells on the
northern property are sitting essentially at existing grade. Um, and then on the southerntherly property, they're actually sitting sitting in a slight fill condition. So there isn't an excess cut with the
grading to then put them deeper. Got it. Great. Thank you, Mr. What I'd like to propose, if it's okay with you, is I would like to open it up to the public for public comment and questions on this specific testimony before we go on to the architectural.
I I prefer that myself. Yes. Thank you. Great. Thank you. Questions only, please. And limit your questions, please, to a couple of minutes and also to the testimony in which you've heard. Okay. Please.
Mr. Mr. Chairman, if I could just real quick just to so members of the public understand. Um, so this is what's called a quasi judicial proceeding. So it's essentially like a court case, right? So there's a lot of rules that we have to follow. Main chief amongst them being when it comes to the public is questions and comments, right? So when you're
going to come up, you're going to ask questions of Mr. Hollows about the testimony he provided. Uh, the applicant has another witness, their architect who have an opportunity to ask her questions and then at the end then you can make comments. So anything that comes out of your mouth at this point should have a question mark at the end of it. We just
ask that you please respect our rules because we have a process that we have to follow. We don't want to prejudice the applicant or anybody else. So, with that, um, when you come up, you have to give me your name and address because it's going to be on the record. And then, uh, I won't swear you in until the commentary period, uh, unless you make
some statements that you shouldn't be making, but we'll we'll cross that bridge if we come to it. So, we'll start with, uh, Mr. Renowitz, I believe. If you could just give us your name. Thank you very much. Name and address for the record, please, sir. Sure. Charles running with 605 Heritage Road.
There was some discussion earlier about the dry wells and we're going to have a leadin to the catch basins and there was a discussion where does that water go? Could you clarify where that water goes once it gets in that catch basin? It's
in the existing storm sorry did it go into the existing storm drainage system that is in at the intersection of Heritage Road and Indian Run and it travels in an easterly direction. Would it be fair
to say this photograph is where the water goes? Would that be a fair assumption? I think we need to mark the photograph if he's going to ask a question about it. That that would have to be an exhibit. Well, we'll get to that. I'll I want to
I'll enter it as evidence, but I'm asking a question. Is that where the storm water would go? Well, we need to with respect. We need to enter it as an exhibit for you to ask him a question. No, we need to get it officially locked in. Yeah. Take that. Yeah. Part of the process. If you could show it to Mr. Zeli to see if he has any
objections to mark that as 01. Okay. Okay. See no objections. This photograph was taken by me on March 11th, 2025. This is the required drainage
condition that the development had to install. We're we're going into testimony right now. I don't think that's appropriate until we get through questions. Well, this is you're I'm asking the question, where does the water go? Okay.
Well, that's I think they didn't know where the water went. All right. So, Mr. goes into the drain. Everything one sec. So, what you're introducing is a photograph that you took on March 11th, 2025. And what is it depicting exactly so we know what it is?
It depicts where the water from this dry well, the two overruns will go down into the catch basin, down the piping into that trough. And where is that? That troth is between the open space on the diagram.
Um, if you got a map here, perhaps I can't believe you don't know that this is where it is. Perhaps on the subdivision. This is where the trough is right here. The southwest corner of the property. So, so before we go further, there
Mr. Hollows, your testimony was that the drains go east on Heritage. Correct. Mr. Romanoitz, do you agree that it flows east on Heritage to the point you just located on the map?
That is correct. Okay. And then it enters into the system that's in the photo you provided. That is also correct. May I interrupt you for just one second? Yes. Can we swear him in? I was going to get to Mr. Owenowitz, I got to swear you in because you're giving some statements here. Do you
swear or affirm that the testimony you just provided and may continue to provide was and will be the truth and the whole truth, nothing but the truth. So help you God. So help me God. I do. Thank Okay. Okay. So from that point
of a catch basin in heritage and then goes southerntherly into the township lands. That's correct. Okay. Proceed with questions. Questions only preferably at this point. Okay. Please, there were questions. Picture will be back to you in just a moment. The board's taking a look at
I'm looking I'm looking at that's why I was asking. Yeah. Based upon the water flow that we just established, will there be any flooding, additional flooding based upon this additional storm water coming out of the
dry wells? And we haven't talked about the impervious coverage yet, but let's talk about just what would come out of that drive. Where would it go? And would there be flooding? No, there won't won't be flooding. Take the mic.
There won't be flooding. We are actually, as I had stated before, we are storing 4 inches of rainfall from the roofs of both homes or proposed homes. Right now, the existing conditions are that there is no storage
for the existing structures, the house, the shed, the garage. So, we're actually proposing to make it better than what's there. And I think uh we're actually in excess of what we're required under the ordinance to do because we took the
whole house, not not the difference in impervious coverage, which is a little bit less than taking the two whole houses. Can I can I If you're If you're building these dry wells and it's going to store all this water, why do we need the overflow into
the storm drains? because we have rainfall that exceeds 4 in which is our design state. I'd like the applicants to answer that question. Can I can I ask please let I'm I'm cross-examining the the applicant. Okay.
Well, can you just again limit to the question? I'm trying to get it answered. Okay. And he's provided you an answer. Mr. Hollis adopted his statement as I'm sorry. Yes, please. Yeah. I I had a question. I wanted to build on what Mr. Renaitz was saying the
uh aggregate area of the existing roofs of the three structures compared to the aggregate area of the two new structures. How do those compare and a percentage would be fine? Existing conditions are 61 6,13 square
feet of impervious coverage. We're proposing less than 10,000. It's 46.88 and 46.88 for both including driveways and other impervious driveways.
So you're actually reducing the total aggregate square footage of impervious code coverage. You're increasing increasing. It's increasing coverage. Yeah. But we're capturing more water because
of the size of the house. We're capturing capturing 4,000 almost 5,000 square feet between the two houses. And you're proposing compliant
impervious coverage on both proposed lots. Correct. Yes. So, Mr. If I may, so if we deduct that amount from the 9,000 and change total, our net amount is less than the 6,000 and something that's there now of uncaptured.
So we are improving the situation. Please give me those numbers again on what the current impervious coverage is on that lot and what it will be in total with the two homes, proposed two homes.
Bill, I have it in front of me. Do you prefer he answer? I prefer I prefer the applicant answer. Okay. Existing is 6,13 proposed is 9,376 and we're storing 5,000.
It's more than the difference and you're required to store the difference the difference and the difference being 3,300 and change.
So roughly 150% of the design standard is what you're detaining. Yes. And all overflow from the roof leaders will be directly connected to the drainage system. right to the drainage system consistent with
the overland flow and existing conditions to the same point of discharge on Heritage. Okay. So, if I heard that correctly, less is being put into the storm management system. Yes.
Thank you. Yes. That's great news. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. All right, come on up. Next person.
Uh, I'd remind members of the public, please try to limit it to questions. Sure. Brian Dagley, 679 Heritage Road, right across the street. Just a question to clarify about the drainage. So, we've talked about the impervious uh surfaces caused by the new development of the houses, but what's the estimate of the
excess uh drainage that's going to be lost due to the removal of trees uh on the property? Sir, while he's looking that up, can you give us your last name? Just spell it for the record. Gagian. D A G L I A N. And address one more time for me. 679 Heritage Road.
679 Heritage Road. Okay. Thank you, sir. Well, we're going to put some TR quite a few trees back onto the site and we're also going to have a decent lawn compared to what's out there now. So, I don't really I don't really see any
increase for you even across the street. We're going to capture everything and take it down in an easterly direction into the storm drainage system, which I did say in my testimony goes out to the river. Sure. No, I understand that. But
my question is more so you're taking the aggregate from the impervious surfaces and capturing that. But are you factoring in the loss of absorption by the trees you're removing compared to and I'm not an expert on trees, but compared to the absorption of new trees where you've got wellestablished trees
which have fully formed root systems versus versus new trees that you're going to be planting and what's the ratio of new trees to trees being removed? Well, the testimony was that we we haven't done a planting plan at this point. We'll do that. If if the board
were to approve it, we would do it and um the township engineer would review that. The requirement is really in as far as engineering goes, it's just impervious coverage. So, impervious coverage. It's it's not other items.
That's how and I think just to clarify, I think we're talking about more than just removal and replacement. We're also talking about preservation. So I I think that's getting after what you're also discussing, which is existing tree preservation to the best
extent possible. Yeah. Yeah. Because our our limit of disturbance is not far behind the houses. We're gonna I wouldn't say we're going to leave it naturally because it's pretty overgrown brush back there, but save as many trees as we possibly can
and make a decent lawn, you know, typical to the homes that that are along the street. Just just follow on that point if I can. So, Joe, you said you're going to look at the landscaping at some point in the future. Do you want to give any few words of how
what the approach is and what your thoughts would be for that landscaping? Uh it's going to be based on the the size of the caliber of the trees and trying to create a balance of what is lost to then what is mitigated with
replacement for shade tree canopy um as well as the ability to absorb some of that runoff. But but the there is no calculation in standard for the amount of absorption from the existing trees to
compare against the proposed trees. Um the the best way to equivalate that would be by land cover and the testimony is that we're getting comparative wooded and lawn land cover across the
property which is part of an analysis you would do on major development storm water. rather than minor development here which is a little bit more basic ins and outs of imperous coverage. So I think the the net the net recharge
will be larger than the absorption of the trees and what existing recharges because of the drywall systems. Okay. So is it fair to say you take the cons concerns of the public in the landscaping? Yes. and the impact of tree removal or
and particularly the placement of the trees so that they're in an area that would be conducive to absorbing and being healthy by being fed by the runoff. Thank you. Thank you. That sorry that was going to be my comment as well. Uh if there's any um unhealthy trees, we absolutely should
remove that because it's only going to be a problem for the new houses, right? try and maintain any of the old growth. So you have that um blending of the new building, the new structures with the existing neighborhood. And if there are any ashes on that property, probably is
a good idea to get rid of those because they will die at some point with the the emerald bore whatever. Yeah. So any that are infected, diseased. Yeah, I noticed that there were some trees that were not healthy would not be subject to our replacement schedule typically. Right. But we can understand we can work.
Thank you. Thank you. Please. Hi. State your name. I'm Joe Selenino and uh it's good to be back in here. I used to work over here in that spot right there. So I know what you guys been through and uh could you give us your address?
Appreciate that. But there's some things there. We're where right on Could you give us your address? I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. 661 Heritage Road. Great. Okay. We're right across the street. Last house before you get into the swamp there. Great. Thank you.
So after going through this and and watching this for over three years or about three years sir I just we got an opportunity comments trying to keep it to questions at this point. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um let's see two things. One is uh there
was some discussion about the water and that goes into a tank or whatever. I'm not sure what that's all about but uh Mr. the Renaits had talked about and asked if there goes into that swamp in the back of our houses and I don't remember what the discussion was or the
answer was. It sounded to me like these boxes that are in there now will take care of that. Now I've been there for 40 years 40 plus years and I can tell you that there three times that that water is that a problem for you?
Could we just limit it to you have a question? Yeah, it is a question but I want to tell you direct to the applicant. You not know what I'm saying if I'm going to ask the question. Okay. The question, well, let me let me reverse it for you. The question is, why
did the water come in and create a swamp back there for months or for a month when there we have a heavy rain and it came up within 14 feet of my house and I'm sure Mr. Arena's house as well and some of the other houses and everything
is supposed to work out with the box that's in the wherever it is. I don't even know where the hell the box is, but everything is supposed to work out with those boxes, right? And you're not supposed to get any swamp and any any uh flooding rain. Is that the question and answer I heard? Well, what I hear from that, let me see
if I can rephrase. Is there a question with regards to the box which I believe you're referring to as the dry well system? Yeah. Okay. Well, then maybe you could please elaborate on that, Mr. H. Well, the drywall system, if you look at
that drawing, are the blue the blue areas, right? We're we're collecting 4 inches of rainfall from the house. And I think you're talking about rain events. We're probably closer to nine or 10 inch
rainfall events over a 24-hour period. not there. Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know where it goes. It's this way, but on the other side over here about right here, there's another
it's a little a little further up wherever close by where rain also comes down. and this way here. So between the two and rain coming off of here. Now I'm not talking about every day when you get rain. I'm talking about heavy
rain, a very heavy rain. The water's going to come into your house and there it is. It's going to Mr. Selena, are you asking if the project Are you asking if the project will make this worse or contribute to that situation?
I think it would contribute back on your position, right? And like I said, 40 years can happen three times. Not bad. But if you're living there, one time is bad. One time is bad. At least
for me, I don't need my house wiped out from your basement up for one time. Let me ask Mr. Hollows if he can address that. Mr. hollows in one of these types of, you know, unusually heavy rain situations. Would the additional runoff going
through the drywalls on our property cause that problem to be worse or would it ultimately be better than what's there now? Because at least we're slowing it down by the capturing of the drywalls. Slightly better. You're still going to
see the the rain come or the water come up towards your home. But the what I'm what we're trying to say here is that this doesn't necessarily increase that. You know, it's not going to go from 14t from your house to 13 feet from your house because
you're going to put two houses up. If anything, it's going to stay at the 14t from your house. If I may. Yes, please. Yes. 14T from my house. So, it's not going to house. Okay. We're going to take
I'm talking about a heavy raintorm. Heavy raintorm maybe for two or three days and then it comes down here. I don't care what you got here now. It's not going to help us over 40 years. I thought it was my house. It was so
close. Mr. Selena, I think the board engineer has something he just wanted to chime in. board engineer here. Just for the benefit of the board, the applicant and and the public, the FEMA flood plane maps for Morris County
just became effective. They replaced maps from Yes, the new maps just became effective. They replaced maps that were a couple decades old. Um, on the prior maps, I believe the flood plane was south of
these properties on Heritage Road from from the Pate River coming north. In the current maps, that flood plane is mapped through the rears of these properties. um your subject, your property, sir. It's mapped
not 20 feet from the rear of your home, but within a 100 ft of the rear of your structure. Um and then does come closer to Heritage um at the area discussed earlier by Mr.
Weno. It's where the concrete flume is. So much closer to the roadway is where the existing flood plane is mapped. Right. But that is mapped regional conditions. Correct. Correct. It is not directly relevant to what
could be experienced from this potential. Right. So the proposed project for so FEMA and D's recent studies would verify that the existing flood plane and the existing conditions is in those locations. Gotcha. Can I can I please build on this
question? So if you take that map right there, Yes. and you bict it right in the middle, you have a left and a right. Do I understand this correctly? Yeah. Right there. Right down the middle. You got the houses on one side, land on the
other. Nothing's changing on the right side effectively. Effectively. Yeah. I mean, other than clear some brush and maybe make some more lawn out of it, but it's so so steady state. Yes. The way it is today, it'll react the way it will in
the future. Now, everything to the left is the house and the new impervious structure. And all that water is being captured through the drywall systems, funneled out directly into the drains
effectively, travels down the street, goes through a culvert out to the river. Correct. So, and sir, it's the houses that are collected. Okay. Or border from the houses. And so, sir, I'm looking at where your
house is. The border of your house is to the left of that biseected line, right? Right there. Right. So, there's water coming down. This gets build up and any rainfall, I don't care how much you build it or take some land.
What I'm saying to you is this that heavy raintorms where this is set up. And I'm not saying it's bad or good, but I'm saying that you can only put so much into your storage here. And at the same time, there's down here
and here and here. Now, when these get built, there's going to be more land. You're not going to have a big swamp like it is now. So, can I rephrase your question then with what you just said? At what point, what category of rain inches per hour
does that does that those dry wells get overwhelmed above four inches of rainfall? Yeah. And then what happens and then which is probably most storms are other than these the hurricanes or 4 inches. And how long?
It's a 24-hour period. Okay. And what happens when they're overwhelmed? It would go overflow into the pipe that goes into the storm drainage system. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm asking a different question. So those wells fill up, they
get to the top, 4 inches of rain in 24 hours, then they start draining, correct? What if you had nine nine inches of rain in 12 hours? Well, it would would have filled up already and it would be draining. Be continuing to flow. Correct.
Yes. It' be continually overflowing the additional excess inches. Okay. So, through the system as long as the gutter system was not overflowing, that's why we put the roof. So, when you get into that overflow when you get into that overflow situation,
how many inches per hour can you stand and continue to empty it at a steady rate? uh comes down to the conveyance capacity of the roof leaders, the the gutters themselves, the 4-in gutter
and then the roof leader coming down to the extent that they're free and can continue to to take that runoff. I I think those 4-inch gutters can take probably close to an inch an hour if they had to.
Where is it going? Where those gutters go? All the gutters from the house go into the drywall system. Yeah, we're talking we're making a circle. Yeah, the gutter. Hold on, guys. We got too many people talking. Hold on.
So, the the the gutter, the size of the gutter and the downspout from the gutter is the limiting capacity of this system as it is on all houses as it is on right any house. So those are going to be either way. But even
the other system once this gets filled up, correct me if I'm wrong, the water then overflows, goes into the street. It's not over here. It doesn't go in here. It just runs down the street. So the the
and it goes down into the sewer that goes into the back when it gets red and then that comes up to your houses if you live around where I say other people.
So the first point of overflow is through the design system as intended underground and into the back of the catch basin. The second point would be the the point of failure which is the the gutters not being able to accept the
flow at that rate. So uh in a condition where all the homes in the neighborhood are overflowing the roofs over the gutter and spilling onto the ground and going out to the street and then the to the capacity of the system in the
street. Uh this lot is contributing equally to the others in the neighborhood to that issue. So the so the difference of what we're addressing under this application is uh the increase of impervious coverage on
the property and the balance of their mitigation. So their mitigation requirement is 4 in over about 3300 square ft and they're providing 4 in over about 5,000 square feet. Okay. what you're saying.
Excuse me. We we do want to move on just because we want to give other people an opportunity to ask questions. Things to say, too. I understand. And you can you can come you can come back for comments if you have specific comments. Well, we're going to have a comment period if you have comments.
Well, I'm number two is as you're doing this, I think moving this around having this I'm sorry that's a comment and you can provide that in the comment period. I have to I have to it's a comment so that you understand
I I understand we're going to have a period in which you can come back up and provide comments right now and I'll leave. No, but I'm sorry the the process that we've described is we're taking questions on testimony. Well, you know what? You know what I sat
back there for all the time that you guys were talking? You know how much I heard? I was hearing everybody had their back to us and I I missed out about at least 50% maybe 60 or 70% which I couldn't hear. I couldn't hear
statements where I couldn't see what he was talking about all of that. So I'm not supposed to come up here and ask you some questions so I could But you're not asking questions. Finish please. Yes. Please let me finish. Well, we would like to move
when you're talking if I was talking to you and I was turned around and talking to these people here at a voice that's you can't hear and I'm wondering why you're not answering my questions or you're not making any response. What would you say to me? You just sit there
and say, "Well, that's the way it is. You know, I I worked here before four years and I know what customers and and people here come here to do. They come here for your satisfaction to get information that they haven't got and you people
know what the information is and I think it's your responsibility to at least give some kind of wait a minute don't give me this this thing so somebody so that somebody understands okay you know you you're gonna make it in the future in the next hour you're gonna or half
hour you're gonna make that or not so let's let's just drop this here now I just wanted to let you know that you got people here who couldn't hear what you're talking about. The second thing is uh is there any point here or any plan
to once these trees get knocked out? I I'm not still I don't understand which trees are going to come out and how many. But can can some trees be put in along the street here to make this area here better and a better place to look
at and make this house better and this whole plan better? Yeah, I think that would be great. I haven't heard it that we're going to add some of that. Let's let the applicant just respond to that. Yeah, I'm sorry you didn't hear it, but I did mention that we have a big open area there. That would be a good place
to put some trees in there. No, I didn't. hear that. But yes, I know that because that is right there. So, thank you. Thank you. Please. Any additional public comments? Public questions.
Questions, please. Sorry, I was I was skipping ahead of comments. We had enough. Good evening. Frank Liberado, 589 Heritage Road, and I'll keep it to questions for you. Thank you. Um first question is uh you testified
uh to the fact that none of the uh current water on the roofs or the impervious structures is captured right now currently. From my visual right from my visual inspection of the property none. I did not see any go
anywhere other than to the surface. Correct. So currently as it stands now the way the property is sloped with the amount of green space I would call it you know green area it's all grass vegetation current property most likely
is reabsorbing the majority of the current runoff as it sits right now cuz I grew up next to that house moved there in 1980 lived in the town most of my life and I would say even with the heavy rains never really saw any sheeting across the
road up there to point. What are the provisions in the new structures that you're putting up that you state you have the dry wells for the collection of the runoff on the roofs? How are you handling the sump pumps that
are going to meet be discharging because there are several homes in the neighborhood that the pumps run on a regular basis? And I do believe he testified to not having checked the water table yet or done any testing to understand how high that is. And will that be connected to the dry wells or is
that being directly connected to the storm system that exists in the street? Number one, you don't put some pump into the drywall because you can't ever qualify or quantify the amount of water that's going in. That's a trick question.
It's not a trick question. I've had it before. Um, my suggestion would be to put the uh sump pump into the overflow system that goes out rather than pump it out on the ground both.
Yes. So that'll be adding to what's So that'll be going into the overflow on a regular basis. Yeah. But it wouldn't be going through the drywall. So it' be downstream of the adding to the existing storm system. Yes. That drains easterly. Now, did you say
it drains to a detention basin or a box or what does it Yeah, it it goes out to a head wall. It appears visually that it's some sort of detention basin, but I just know it goes down towards the river. So, I think it's a natural kind of a natural detention area. Does that handle water coming from down
Valley Road also? Um, yeah. Where to? I believe it comes through the center of the property, that open space area in the center. There's a drain there's a drainage easement through the northeasterly corner that then turns
east of your subject property. Yes, perhaps it's connected through there. Comes down and goes over. Correct. You can probably hear me pretty well. Very loud. Yeah, but the home may not be. So, thank you.
Uh, next question is regarding uh Mr. Hunt's house, which is a house on Heritage Road immediately adjacent to the property. I know Mr. Hunt's not here tonight. I think he's traveling. I have not had privy to the grading plan, and I apologize if it was out sooner to take a
look at, but will any of the change in the grading of the site, the slope, or the construction of the two structures currently affect water flow going into his property? being he's the closest and he's on the down side of your
construction. We're not proposing any changes to the at this point. We're not proposing any changes to the grading towards the back of the property other than to maybe get it so you can put some lawn there, you know, in those those heavily brushed
areas. And there are and there are again visually inspecting the property. There is a natural swale there. It may have a couple of bumps in it. It's not not the smoothest swale in the world, but it uh
it is there. So, I guess to my last point is in regards to the grading that will be done from the front of the property to the houses and in the vicinities of your impervious surface such as driveways, patios, hardscape surfaces.
the w runoff for that during a heavy event. We've had several heavy events of rain where we've had several inches an hour and so on. You know, now you have two footprints as opposed to one footprint. And will that be making it over to his
property on the sheeting of the property when you get extreme sheeting coming across that's not captured as part of the roof system, but actually just flowing across the property. Is there any changes in the grading on the front portion of the property that could negatively impact any of the joining properties?
No. The answer simple answer is no. And I think my testimony has been pretty clear. We are capturing more of the impervious coverage than right now. Everything goes out from this house. There's no storage
at all. Right into the green. So, we're actually storing some of the water and then discharging it into the system so it doesn't have a chance to get to the neighbors. And then again, we're not we're not looking to again, I mean, I we're trying
to just make this so it most likely have a lawn in the in the back, you know, similar to the houses in the in the neighborhood, but not to take down all the trees and not to uh really other than maybe put a little top soil hair in there to to because it's pretty
undulating and it kind of moves around there. It's not a smooth area. Just so you can get it. Can I build on his question? What's the soil like there? Is there shale under there? I believe so. So, and what happens? What h how far
down is the shell? That I don't know. We haven't done soil tests yet. Several feet. And what happens when the water drains down to the shell? Generally moves along the shell, one of the surfaces. So, so one way to look at this is you're
avoiding that in spots in spots. But there are several homes that are in pockets where you know obviously I'm not going to testify question but I'm asking a question living in the neighborhood knowing that
some regular and understand if you know the sump pumps will be running on a regular basis and if they are you know how much addition because right now everything's just getting lost. Could we just I'd like to just
acknowledge the board engineers. Go ahead. So, I think this might help both parts of that. First, if I could ask you a quick question, the sump pumps on existing homes in the neighborhood to your knowledge, do they discharge
into the property from the dwelling or do they discharge to the street or combination? property. So I would I would assume I would assume like I said I can't speak for each house. I would testify that but it's a mix but from living in the neighborhood during
there are times in the street that discharge at the time. Okay. So to make a connection to our municipal storm water system requires separate review and approval by me as a township engineer outside of this application. It
wouldn't be decided here. it would be essentially part of a road opening permit um which has is addressed on a case- by case basis and we look specifically before making that decision at what the other homes in the neighborhood are currently doing and how
they mitigate that. So that sump pump if the rest of the neighborhood discharges to their rear yards would simply be asked to have both structures discharged to the rear yard so it can be reabsorbed into the groundwater table locally.
Second bill, if you could flip to A1, which is your coloriz a exhibit of the existing condition, um to the benefit of Mr. Hunt not being here and some of the what you discussed
about his property being downgradient, Bill, for the the maj the m is it fair to say the majority of the runoff in the existing condition heading southeasterly comes from the improve the existing
improvements of the paved driveway, the detached garage, and even so much as the driveway sloping down into the property from the northerly section. That would be that would be fair. And so from that hammerhead area of that driveway in the southeasterly corner of
that driveway. Yeah. That pattern is essentially southeasterly towards that that common lot line. Yes. Right. When you flip to A2, the proposed condition, do you have any proposed
bed? Is that existing slope area outside your limit of the proposed disturbance? A good part of it is okay. And to the extent that the proposed existing
improvement or the the proposed imperous improvements, the home, the patios of both structures, the the portion that is undetained that would drain southeasterly. Is it accurate to say it's the proposed
deck and patios off the rear of the structures only? As far as impervious coverage, yes. Okay. And the rest of that impervious coverage is either detained from the structures to the dry wells or is the front yard driveways that will drain
south westerly. The driveways actually would drain out to the drain out to the curb. So out to Indian. Okay. Yes. Okay. Are they are they curbed? Yes, the driveways are curbed. We haven't gotten that far on the on the plan yet,
but the the grading is towards Indian R towards Indian and if if it if not directly to Indian southwesterly. Yes. Okay. So to the extent of impervious coverage draining towards
lot I'm sorry. I don't think I don't think we have that Mr. Hunt. Um lot 11. Mr. Hunel property um the reduction is
80 or more% of the impervious coverage existing that drains that way being extracted the other way. Yeah, it's a fair amount. Okay, that's going to be um and then you're going to remove some of that impervious coverage and and then the majority of the impervious coverage
is going to come out towards Indian Run and get into the storm drainage system at the corner. Okay. And the that southeasterly rear yard um is not within the limit of disturbance. So there's no tree removal
and to the extent that brush is being cleared, it's being reveated as manicured lawn. Yes. Okay, that's fair com. Okay, thank you. Oh, actually, Mr. Labrado, let me post humorously swear you in because you did answer a question for the board engineer. Yeah,
sorry. Do you swear affirm the testimony you provided to me? Continue to provide his was and will be the truth. The whole truth of what the truth is we got. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Got to observe the formalities here. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Yeah. Who's on the chopping block next?
How you doing? Um Kevin Zulcowski, 636 heritage road. And I'll spell Zulkowski for you. Uh Z is in zebra. I O L K O W S K I. Um just wanted to kind of go with a question with the some pumps if they get discharged onto the back of the property
that's going to be adding more flow from the back of the property. Correct. More than Yes. More than uh here. Please grab the grab your microphone. Thanks. I wouldn't say more than what's there now, but it would Yeah.
It would be more depending on how often it discharges. Um, so with that, like is that taken into account with this because I deal with a lot of backyard flooding, two
feet in the basement sometimes. I don't see this water. I mean, I answered this question quite a few times. The water goes basically across the back of the property to the southeasterly corner, would cross the sidewalk and go into the storm drainage
system. Would you would you be the same thing? You wouldn't put the sump pump at the property line. I think Mr. You stated that you would tie the sub pumps if there were to be installed into the overflow pipes that go along the Westerly property line. Correct.
Well, that was my initial that was my initial comment that I really would like to do that. I mean, that's the the typical way you do it, but uh going to the going to the street versus the interior of the property. Correct.
So, why you said but what why not? Why not? Why can't you do that? the pumps going into the drainage line because I reserve the right as the township engineer not to address it at this board.
Fine. But is you would it be your intention to look at that as a yes as a priority? So it would be yes it's not part of the design standards of the application in front of you and our code for storm water management and to the extent that it would be
a potential elicit connection to the sewer system it needs to be vetted before it's connected and in doing that what we do is we make sure it's singularly the sump pumps and nothing else connected so it doesn't have any potential contaminants and then also We
look at the neighboring homes, how many of them drain to the street and trying to eliminate potential icing in the winter to ensure that they get to the catch basin. Thank you. So hopefully there's a bit more confidence that the township engineers going to address or look at
that as a priority. Does the existing house have a sump? I did not see I did not see a discharge for something and it's on grade at the lower level. So, and have you inspected the basement?
There is no basement, is it? Okay. On the uh side facing Heritage Road. It's on grade and then it it goes into the the uh slope. These doors walk go right out onto
grade. This is the first. Good. Did you have another question? Uh just a couple. Um just uh with a couple discrepancies I noticed on public records for total lot
in this area. It says 1.607 and their application as 1.75. Why would there be a difference? Can any address that? It's
what's available on the tax card is based on tax maps and scale. What is provided in the application is relative to a boundary survey. So I would defer to the boundary
survey as the more accurate number rather than the tax card. my my own lot in Randolph has some.3 acres added to it in the tax map and in my assessment that is not accurate to my title. So it does
happen amongst subdivided properties. Okay. And as far as the application process, I'm not, you know, never been through anything like this before, but are calculations verified from the application to what is actually
measurements that are on there to him? to I guess more for the town engineer because I was looking at it briefly and I added up a lot more impervious coverage than what was on the application.
So the we do spot check some of the calculations by scale but they are signed and sealed by a licensed engineer and surveyor so they are taken at their word.
Okay. Um, and just a question on the difference between a a minor and a major plan. Um, with the current with the initial
proposal, the limit of disturbance had over an acre, right? This has just under an acre of a limit of disturbance. Does that limited disturbance include all the demolition that's going to happen in there? The limit of disturbance is this dash
line. Bill, take the mic. Just the limit of disturbance on the plan is a dashed line. Um, and there's a lot there's a lot less on this plan than there was on the previous plan. There is. Yeah. So, visually I'd say it's
definitely less than half the property, right? There's structures outside of there. of the shed garage. Oh, not the shed, but I I think we we
might have captured the garage. Definitely all the side of the driveway. Maybe it's in the semantic of the definition of disturbance. Could you just really classify that? We're just removing it. And it's on It's a slab on grade. I'm
sorry. The garage is a slab on grade. So there's no really excavation needed for the to remove that. Thank you. Sorry. Y um will there be an environmental impact
statement provided in accordance with the land use to see it. I will skip the Morris answer. Right. So the requirements for environmental impact statement are LU 147
uh all applications for a major site plan, major subdivision and major and minor site plan of 3 acres or greater in size.
And so the application in front of us is uh applications for approval of minor site plans of less than three acres for approval of minor subdivisions may initially include a completed short form
of the environmental assessment rather than a full EIS uh based on one second let me read ahead. So they may include the short form of the environmental assessment and then
based on a review of that short form the approving authority being this board may require a full EIS. So it would I'll defer to our attorney. It would be at your discretion if the short
form is required initially under the May and then if then utilized at your discretion to escalate to the full EIS. I would agree with Joe's interpretation there. Maybe I need to look at the
ordinance myself to All right. Thank you. And then actually sorry a couple other questions. Um keeping in the questions not comments yet. Yes please. Um with that environmental impact statement
NJ go web uh US fish and wildlife note endangered species on that property. Is that taken into account with tree removals things like that? It's not a to my knowledge it is not
excuse me a requirement for this type of an application. It's something totally outside the scope of what this board has any jurisdiction over. That would be US Fish and Wildlife NJ. That is something that is something totally outside the
scope of what this board is allowed to consider. That would be an issue for probably NJ or you know whatever Fish and Wildlife to figure out. You know, we're limited to what whether or not the application conformance with the ordinance is subdivision and uh bulk requirements here. That's what we're
limited to. So if there's an endangered species totally outside agency your section thank you appreciate it. Yep. Thank you. Good evening. Uh Joseph Pecarero 688 Heritage Road and I'll spell the last
name P as in Peter. E C O R A R O. Uh just one question regarding the dry well and I don't know if it's specifically to you or the the engineer. The it's has approximately 4 in of capacity in a 24-hour period as I understand it the
runoff into the drywall. So my question is can it be improved to 6 in or 8 in? And if so, can that be done either in conjunction with this application or as a follow on to this application to allow for more water to run through the drive
well? Do you want to take that bill first to discuss? That's the applicant. The town has an ordinance. I'm sorry. The town has an ordinance and we're following that ordinance and that ordinance is 4 inches of rainfall over
the in like we had said we're actually taking more because we're taking the roof area of both homes rather than a difference of impervious coverage. So it is it is a little bit more.
So for the purpose of our application, our design standard is what they're meeting and exceeding roughly 150% of what's required is what they're providing. That's the threshold on a minor development. Um that's what we can
obligate them to for the mitigation of really what would be bulk impervious coverage type variances that they're not seeking. So we are limited in our reach of additional mitigation on top of what they've already provided.
But just from my own understanding, can it be improved the 4-in capacity of the drywall like down the road? Is that possible? Yes. I mean the drywall system could be designed for any standard to the ex extent of the subsurface
water elevations and the available footprint to go laterally as Mr. Hollis stated stay shallow and go lateral. So we have we have some options to ensure that this system will be able to meet the 150% that they're offering to
provide. Gotcha. And could we not in relation to this application but as a could a request be formally submitted to increase the capacity of the drywall uh privately between land owners? Yes.
Okay. Just to follow on that point because I have the same question but I think thank you for raising the question. What would it take to go net neutral or something in terms of capacity? Yes, you've done 150%. Could you go to 6 in? I mean is that
make is that a material technical challenge or is it just a cost of an additional space? It's not a feasibility issue to say double it to 8 in. It could be designed.
It's a costgenerative request that's outside the limitations of our reach on the variances that are in front of us because the variances are not related to that bulking and massing of the site development, the density of the development.
Exactly. Um however, however, right, the most appropriate way to effectuate that would be through ordinance revision. Thank you.
However, I'll come back to that later. David, just hold it. Yeah. I just need to show a hands of who else would like to make a comment. Question. Question. I'm sorry. Comments. Questions. Questions. Two. Thank you. I think I counted three. three a gentleman over here, this lady center,
and then that lady over there. Great. I'd like I'd like to entertain those as they please. I I think this gentleman was standing first, but Thank you. I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. What happened to chivalry? Chivalry is gone. He's gone.
Exactly. He was Hi, everyone. Uh Joe Terrell, 693 Heritage Road. Uh T O R L A Um, so I'm going to shock everyone and ask a question about water. Uh, but
your name is Joe. You're about the fifth Joe we've had. That's another Yeah. All of you talking about Joe's are well are very concerned about water management. Joe's. No, it I mean it's a question not editorializing. Um, but you can tell everyone's
concerned. I think our lived experience is it's a wet place. Water builds up fast. And as we've asked questions about sump pumps, water table, etc. A lot of the answers have been, well, it shouldn't be. We, you know, we believe it should be okay.
What would it take to feel confident that this will not add to the problem? Is there a series of experts and tests that would give us high confidence that that you move forward and it won't exacerbate the problems? What would those look like? Um, I'm not an engineer, so just appreciate input. And
I don't know if it's a question to you, Mr. Alles, or or to you. I think it's a combination, but I think we're discussing two separate things. The burden of an applicant on a minor subdivision and to satisfy our
code, which they are satisfying and exceeding. And then to the extent of a netneutral impact where it's a more regionalized study of that whole neighborhood. We
were a approximate buffer to the 100red-year flood plane is less than 200 feet to Heritage Road to the south um through the rear yards of some of those homes. And it's as close as I
would say under 50 ft from the roadway nearest where the head wall discharges from Heritage through through the township property. So in the conditions where we're being inundated and we're
wet, we're experiencing those larger storm events that are above the design standards of any really any application they exceed the 100redyear storm on even the majors. Okay.
So, I think the the bar that we're trying to define is at the upper threshold of what would be this subdivision being constructed today on the lands that existed in the 70s.
That would be the appropriate time to get to that threshold if we were doing that size development in this area. And frankly, some of the homes south of Heritage probably would not be able to be permitted and constructed
without being moved closer to Heritage. Okay. So what's the maybe not sure if I understood but you're saying for the subdivision that latter question is not something you would consider because the subdivision is meeting its requirements but there is this separate issue of
uh I think that the the greater concern that you're voicing and the neighborhoods voicing is that the development that was appropriate in major subdivision in 1977 when the map was filed and these homes were constructed
um is held to a different higher standard today if developed as a modern subdivision. that the permitting that would be required at outside agencies, specifically at DP for flood flood hazard concerns and also some of the
associated wetlands that would be in those associated areas would require a a plethora of permits that were not necessary or regulated in the 70s at the time of the subdivision. Okay, I think I understand that. Thanks
for entertaining. Thank you. So, we're live we're living with infill development in an area that's already kind of near that critical resource. Gotcha. No, thank you everybody. I realize we're getting close to time. Thank you. Thank you. Please.
Hi. Good evening. Allison Freedelland, 671 Heritage Road. I'm right across the street. I do not have a question about water. Um, I have a question just on behalf of all the parents in the neighborhood. I'm wondering, and we didn't even get to
really architecturally yet. How long is this project expected to be going on? Um, are these properties being built consecutively or simultaneously? Okay. Who would I
would that be the architectural would that be in the architectural testimony? Mr. Z, I'm not even honestly I'm not even sure the architects would know the answer to that because I'm not sure even the applicant would know the answer to that at this point. Yeah, I don't know if it's known the answer to
your question. I I can and board attorney can affirm this. If we're approved, there will be a resolution uh and it will require us to break ground. them using very general terms to break ground within a year and if we were not to do that we would have
to come back to this board and seek an extension which honestly is relatively routinely granted but that it can't go on forever I mean it has to be uh it has to be acted upon in a relatively reasonably period of time and as you said as you've seen tonight and heard
even if we're approved here there's other things that we have to do that that take time so if we're breaking ground it certainly won't be uh within a few months or just imagining all those vehicles and well and I mean Joe you can appine on
the safety related requirements because that's outside of really this board's perview. Sure. During construction because I think that's your biggest concern. So so their outside agency approval is going to include soil erosion from the county.
That plan approval um is essentially what you see on these plans for the limits of disturbance on the plans and areas like the existing curb cut on the north end of the property to the existing driveway being reused would be
a primary point of access into the property. And then the secondary access to the the second home being constructed would become a point of construction access. And so those would be the points of transition between the roadway and the property that are are meant to limit
the amount of soil tracked off by equipment and to restrict the locations at which the contractors enter and exit the property. So there'd be controlled safe points of egress onto Indian Run and Indian Run only
with with full height curb everywhere else. they would have to make a new point of connection and put that on their soil erosion approval with the county as well as then um have a certain understanding with me and the building
department as to those as a reason for alternative access like to the rear of heritage. Okay, that was helpful. Thank you. Sure. Great. Thank you. Any other? We have one other later. Yes, please. Yes, please. Question
questions. We're at questions. Question. Questions. Okay. Comment. Thank you. Don't be hiding behind the easel. Questions, right? I can't say. No. No. Okay. Okay. Uh at this time, uh what I'd like
to do is just take a brief, very brief five minute break. I just would like to um um check in with the uh applicant uh with regards to what's going to transpire. We do have a hard stop at 10:30. Uh and um we'll be back also for
a quick bathroom break. all the rest. Okay, we're back on the air. architecture studies. Okay, we're back in session and given the late hour and the number of other uh items that the applicant
would like to go through, including now moving toward the architectural testimony. Uh we are going to carry this application, I believe, to the 25th of November. The 25th of November. Wow. So that should give plenty of time. I appreciate
all of the public commentary. That should give you plenty of time to review uh some of the reports that I know came in a bit late uh for this application. So, you should have ample time to review those and and return. I'll I'll remind you that the testimony that uh I think
is planned will be architectural in nature. Uh but there will also of course be an opportunity for public comment uh in addition to the questions on testimony. Mr. Mr. Chair, if I could add something to and sometimes people don't realize this, you are certainly welcome to call
me at any point in time. My information is all uh all over the applicant uh application materials uh because sometimes issues come up that I can discuss with our team and we can try to address them uh prior to the application and uh hopefully it's beneficial to both sides. So, please don't hesitate to call
me. Uh I definitely will return the call and welcome to do that. Thank you. And thank you again for all your active interest in this application and coming out tonight. So, thank you. You're welcome to stay. We have some more business. Hold on. Yeah, let's Yes. Actually, wait before everybody leaves.
Hang on one second. You're required to stay if you want to come to the next meeting. Hold on. Okay. So, first procedural things the board has to do. We got to vote to hold the special meeting on November 25th. We also have to vote to carry the application to November 25th, which I think is what we're going to do.
It's a regular meeting. regular meeting. Scratch that. The board has to vote. My point is they don't need to stay. We're not going to be you're not going to receive any further notice. Just so everybody understands, you're not going to get anything in the mail. Nothing's going to publish in the newspaper. Me, this announcement, this is your notice to come back on November
25th. So, great. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Have a good day. Thank you. Yes. Should we make a motion? Say 7:30. 7:30 on somebody as 7:30 p.m. Municipal Building, same place, same time. You know where it is.
Thank you. Yes. We get a motion to carry. Yeah. I'll make a motion to carry to November 25th. Second. Thank you. All in favor? I. Anyone opposed? No. I think you address.
Uh we're still in session. Yes. Tell the public. Yes, please. Uh other conversations, please uh have them out in the hallway. We do still have some more business to attend to. Thank you. Have a good night.
Okay. So, we have uh a business item tied to our old business associated with our ordinance work and I'm going to turn this over to Mr. Jones. And this is tied to our houses of worship. Houses of worship. Yes. Thank you, Mr.
Chair. Um so uh the ordinance review committee the ORIC has been um this is one item that we're addressing with regards to houses of worship. Uh the the the rationale behind it is it is loosely
written. Um and I would say doesn't really provide or give you the feeling of inclusivity if that's the right word I'm uh trying to come up with. Uh so with uh and and the the definition of of
um we call it churches uh but that doesn't really cover all houses of worship, all faith and so forth. So um we took a look at that uh um ordinance and then came back uh with a couple of uh edits and and you've all seen a copy
of it. Um we are now going to change churches to houses of worship uh and give it better uh definition. And so anyone who applies or or or an application that comes forth or if someone reviews our ordinance to
understand how we uh address uh houses of worship, there's a clear definition and this came up uh uh with the work that um we did with Liz. It's part of the master plan uh which is where we identified this. Uh so uh we have
presented a a copy of the new language for uh the board to or yeah the board to review uh with regards to houses abortion. Great. I could do that. So what would be the next step? What
does the work need? So the next step is everyone needs to read it, review it. If you have any questions or any amendments you'd like to make, let's have it ready for the next meeting. I don't believe there should be any. And the one thing I'm
absolutely going to be asking for and and I know everyone's busy and this is your part-time job that gets no pay and no fanfare, but I try to have your nearfal draft edit final review so that
way uh for me for next time uh for our next meeting. So that way when we say we're done and dusted and we approve it and we send it, it becomes a clean back and forth. This should be, and I hate to say it this way, one of the easier ordinances to review, there's not a lot of complexity to it. Uh not like when
we're doing uh zoning name changes and other items where we're dealing with feet, height, width, depth, and all this other stuff. This is purely a definition to to help uh strengthen our our code books when when addressing houses of
worship. Does everybody have a copy of Deb? Could you uh please circulate working with Tom to make sure? Yeah, we need to get that copy from Liz on housing. Okay. I don't know who has it right now. Yeah, I I will just say I this
particular ordinance I think really needs input from the attorney. Uh because it's it's just so that it's it's the faith part, right? Making sure that we're not it's the federal law. That's right. No, that's right. That's exactly right. And so,
but we have some experience with that. And we Yeah. And we all do, right? Uh and so we want to make sure that we get something that's legally defensible. So that I do want uh input from the attorneys specifically. Yeah. So he gets the next copy. Yes. We all should get a copy.
Yes. And then he comes with the any recommendation on changes or say or gives it the blessing uh that it is uh fit for purpose. And in any changes or amendments that we make, he keeps us honest that we aren't infringing on.
I mean, just as a suggestion, would it make sense that Chris opine and provide feedback before it gets circulated out to all of us? Oh, yes. Yeah. Just so we're not all, you know, coming at it from Fair enough. I didn't stay in a holiday in so I don't have a legal degree that has
Yeah. I just want to suggest the committee work with Liz and the attorneys and then once there's a draft ready approved by the attorneys then you send it to me to distribute to the board. So when a quorum and so that you have the the copy
correct yeah tomorrow you'll send to him. Yes. To to the attorney the attorney you'll have it to um Deborah by when? We have a meeting in what? Chris, why don't I why don't you and I
and maybe Steve have set up some times to talk. Perfect. Yeah. And and maybe you want to come. I would like I would like the board to have it next week. Okay. But I'm not sure like to make that possible. I can't say anything. There better be fire and brimstone
that's holding you back. Oh, the face. Worst case scenario, I would say by Thursday the 23rd so that I can get it out on the 24th. the agenda on the 28th. That's more good. Yes. So, that's almost two weeks. Let me put a uh something on my
calendar. So, need to put Deborah on your Christmas card list. Okay. Good. How do you know that Christmas? I know. Put you on the houses of worship uh or holiday list, whatever. If you don't
can't even come up with anything. Uh the other thing um is that now that we're uh we've just reviewed these last two ordinances, the one with the apartments, the other with the zoning name changes, we can expect that we're going to see a lot more um ordinances coming back with
these changes in it. So please have a healthy look at that uh as we bring them to you. And there's definitely going to be a dovetail. If you're touching something here, it's going to touch something over there. So be careful of the domino effect. Um that's what Pam's going to help us out. Yeah, there you go. You're the domino
gal. Doing my best. She I got a black and blue leg right now from all the kicks I took today. Um yeah, so just be very mindful as we start touching these um u zoning uh items where those name changes are taking place. They are going to impact
other items. Um but this is the first step of a very long process. It's not going to be done anytime soon. Um like I said, it's a gift that'll keep on giving. So that's all I got. Uh just one other thing tying to this is uh Joe any update on the zoning map uh and the
approval of that process? I don't know where we stand with that. Um I didn't hear anything. Did you speak to Randy yet? I didn't hear any update from the last because I mean that you know one thing that Deb and I reviewed is we do have budget within the planning board to you
know obviously support. Yeah. I I spoke to uh Randy Bar uh about it. So I don't know at this point. I mean we give you the approval to do it based on the planning board budget or I think what would be more appropriate would be you can offer the
planning board's budget to the administrator to reallocate to a township committee authorized proposal. Wow. And that that all needs to be documented approved. So, if you're audited, if you guys haven't heard, um,
I thought I was a lawyer. Yeah, yeah, you did stay at You guys know Lupo, right? You did stay at a holiday in Express. I come from that GPT. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I'm working on my law degree right now. Oh, yeah. He's an engineer of pro. No.
Yeah. I'm already in my fourth decade and I'm not going back to law school. No, you know, it wasn't easy in my, you know, however, get it done. It's a priority that it's a priority that we want to get. I can make you a map but under your
direction and your budget but and you can offer it to the committee but it can't get adopted and become formalized unless the committee endorses it. Right. Right. I don't want to waste your funds to then have it have to go back through another
cycle. I'd rather it just be that technically is done through them. That's technically uh an update to the land or correct? Yep. So we have to do it formally right as ordinance resolution and then master plan etc. Yeah. So how do we get this done because we've
been talking about this for a while. So h how what's what's the recommendation in English? I I'll put I guess I have to put a proposal into Randy and he puts it into the budget for 2026. And part of that budget would be your unexpended funds
from this year that you carry forward to it and for next year allocating something that you're going to contribute to it. Okay. So, can you proceed with providing that information to Randy? Yeah, formally. Thank you. Yeah, I got to find somebody to to write
it up. Yep. Great. Okay. Anything else? Yeah, one other business. One other This is not old business, unfortunately. I'd like to make a formal complaint about the audio system in here. It is atrocious. It's atrocious.
While you're talking about budget, maybe we can uh include Before you spend your money on the zoning map, be careful. Would you like to replace these? I the zoning board has been complaining for years and it's not getting very far. So, I'm putting it on the record. And the
the other thing is, you know, split screen so people can see the maps and the artifacts on a little bit harder to do, but one of the one other business very quickly if I could Joe. Um, talking.
Just going back to the state. Well, Steve's not here. I might as well be the one talking. Careful. On the back of He's probably listening. on the back of what you just said about how we display stuff up on those screens. I don't know what the technology department is doing, but do they have some kind of roadmap
that kind of shows what they plan to do and how can we present better to um audience uh the audience because it is I mean we're giving copies from our hands to the public so that they can see and they're having problems with this thing here and we heard at the TC meeting they can't hear
they need to spend $200 on a TV at Walmart. All I want is I want to hear there's a plan and what's on it. It works. Somebody looking at it. It works. I've used it. I've presented it at committee me from that podium right there
connecting to those screens. Mhm. So, we should So, I think it just needs to be there's an education an education session. Yes. And then giving something that we can give to the applicants professionals so that they Well, we need to make sure the applicants work the technology,
right? Give them a piece of paper said this is how you hook up. Give them the HDMI cable. Boom. They in present mode and away they go. And does that go on the t uh broadcast? It can. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That' be good. Okay. Almost technology. Maybe if we can just remember to invite
the audience if they want to look at what we're looking at that they're free to come up, stand in front of whatever. I don't want them in the pit. Right. Well, we cannot be, you know. Yes. There you go.
Yeah. Just one quick question. The microphones want to go. That was even worse. Wait, if I if I take the cordless and uh just
if I unplug it, take it out from the bottom off. Oh, there's one. My case in point. Okay. Think it was me. Well, well, you had a question. Yeah, very quickly. Um, the state plan
is sort of coming to finalization now. I think Boba looked at the uh um latest version, but we had that open question. Did you have a I think you were going to follow up with the Moyes County about the sort of 10 12 towns of the Pay River
approach. So did you remember what I'm talking about? Yes. So there is there's a Whippony River task force that many of you may be aware of that um centers around a number of communities
nearby us that are tapped into a FEMA funded federally funded project through um allocations made through Mikey Cheryl's office. um that is ongoing. That is an existing
group. There have been recent opportunities to create similar groups. Uh the great swamp watershed association has been reaching out to communities in this area. Um I know they reached out to
located in Harding, reached out to Harding. I know they reached out to Morris Township. I don't have confirmation. They didn't reach out to me here, but I believe they reached out to the administrator and others in the area to try to collaborate for a um D
resilience grant opportunity u similar to that kind of structure. The requirement there is that it include three or more municipalities that are all adjoined together. So common boundary between them contiguously and
also a community- based organization, the watershed association or any other nonprofit wershed association would meet that requirement. Uh one of those three or more would have
to then be the lead. Um, and then the opportunity is to get access to grant funding for pre-qualified vendors to provide guidance. So, most of that is directing
funds towards the Ruckers Cooperative being that pre-qualified vendor. Um that's the th that's pretty much the the one opportunity has come up since that reach. How do we coordinate or get involved
with any and I'm still have in my mind the gentleman at Morris County or the state who asked reach out to him. Uh you need consensus amongst the governing bodies and consecutive municipalities to create an alliance. Right. How Okay.
I mean the challenge we have with our watershed is we cross county very quickly. Three counties correct as we come as the Payic winds down in the upper Pay. So we don't have to stay within the county. Is this more specific?
So the resilient Well, the discussions previously were centered around uh somebody at Morris County. I think what do you state or Morris County? I'm trying to It was Morris County. It was I think it was a representative of the county.
Yeah. So I suppose we could get communities on one side of the river. The grand opportunity, right? The grant opportunity that's currently available that closes later this month. It was actually I think supposed to close today and was extended by two
weeks. Um is not county specific. So those those municipalities could be in separate counties. Right. So, how do we do something? That's all I'm asking. And how do we contact the person at Morris County just
to fulfill a request that that gentleman had that we I will apologize before my comment. Turn to your left. Ah, TC. TC. I thought we left it with you, Joe, but
uh well, I I don't have the authority to go do that effort on behalf of the will of this body or the township committee. So, it
has as much as it it's lawyer speak when I say about the zoning map, it's the same about this type of a thing. I cannot start to collaborate other professionals and other communities and other resources
without clear direction. Okay. Okay. So, there's a tent committee comment but my understanding from speaking with county reps is that there wasn't any specific initiative being brought from the county to the municipal level. Okay. So, there wasn't a coordination
downward. It would have to be I think more lateral than up. Yeah, frankly and the the I've been watching the grant opportunities. The grant opportunities are limited. That one opportunity that's in front of us now was recently published
coincidentally time to kind of the NJacked rules starting to promulgate uh in the registar and then the opportunity to get that funding in place for what are the the next phases of the whip watershed improvement plan for the
MS4 permits. You know, David, I I'd like to, you know, just so we can close out tonight, I'd like to work with you and I've got some ideas on how to get to the county. So, thank you. Yeah. What's to come then? Yeah. No, no, let's work together and figure out how we could potentially position ourselves.
I will offer to you that there are Great Swamp Watershed Association. There are elected elected officials in your neighboring communities that are on that Yep. association. So perhaps that's the quickest way to some of our neighbors.
Okay. Yeah, fair enough. Thank you. And it's very consistent with some of the goals we had set out in the master plan too. So we'll follow up. Okay. Okay. Anything else? Any other old or new business? If not, is there a motion to adjurnn?
So moved. Second. All in favor? I. Thank you all.