To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Um, Chair Joseph, >> uh, present. Vice Chair Karen Plant
here, >> committee member Daniel Herity here, >> committee member Robert Austin, uh Francine Ramalia, Karen Gardner Young, and then Gabriela Crosdale is present, and we also have Gary CL with
us as well. Hey, any additions, deletions, or modifications? You guys want to for the agenda? >> No. >> Okay. So, then we're going to move to
the appropriate minutes. I don't have any comments on the minutes. Anybody else? I will note there is a discrepancy between the title date and the first line says February 12th, but I'll fix that. The correct date is February 9th.
Oh, >> good catch. Thank you. >> So, do we have a motion to approve the minutes? >> Motion to approve. >> We have a second. Not yet. Okay. All in favor?
>> I approved. Public comments. One day. One day. One day it'll happen. >> We'll just keep asking. Okay. On to the original agenda.
>> Thank you. Yep. >> I'll go from here. >> Take it away. Take it away. Karen Gardner Young, uh, community standards director. At our last meeting, we had a very good discussion regarding line of sight, and some questions came up that I don't have the expertise for. So, there was some discussion about whether it
made sense to perhaps bring in an engineer who can give us some background. I think two of the big areas we talked about, one was that driveways are not right angled. So, how do you deal with the aprons on the driveways that come out? And the other discussion
was we have in our existing uh uh diagram is A, B and C. And so the discussion was does one of those lines go to the center of the roadway? Does it go to the pavement? Does it go to the property line? So um you know when I
discussed I said we do have an engineer who works for the town. I had suggested that's Gary Kluff to my right. Um, I had suggested we bring him in because whether he does the work outside of the meeting or comes to the meeting, he's still going to be involved and I thought it's better for him to hear directly
from you and you have that take back and forth to be able to discuss with him uh the information. I have also sent it to Simmons and White who is typically our traffic engineer just to make sure that if they have any other suggestions or discussions. I sent them our existing
language and then I sent them what I had originally proposed last time that we really didn't get into but just to g to give them an idea of what this committee was talking about. So number two is introduction to Gary Kloff. Um, Erie and I actually knew each other from 20 years
ago, I think, at least. We both worked in Wellington together at that time. We went different paths and he just couldn't get enough of me, so he came back. So, he's with us now. He part-time. Um, and so he does most of um he does like the FDA reviews. Uh,
anything that kind of has an engineering flavor to it, he he gets involved with. So, this is something that is I felt was kind of up his alley. Gave us an idea. um you know if we need further clarification obviously we can get it from Simmons and White and then I kind of followed through number three is
really what we wanted to discuss with Gary on on the concerns that came in again talking about the edge of payment middle of road or and then the impact of the driveway. I did put in that we did have a major discussion regarding applicability of accessory or secondary
um you know driveways should they apply or not apply. Um and so um with that um I'm not sure Joe do you want how do you should we pick up the conversation where you guys started? Do you kind of tell me how you want you know this is kind of
free flowing. It's not formal because it's committees but well Gary you have you had a little time to get up to speed on I mean on what's what's facing us the challenges facing us with driveways and Okay. because I because I I guarantee
there's going to be some questions flying your way. Um and and mostly it's it's because most of the information that I myself could find had to do more with like new construction and not you know new driveways going in and and not necessarily when it would say private.
It it it seemed to me when in reading through FDOT and the Green Book that it seemed more like those driveways were geared towards, you know, a 7-Eleven driving into a 7-Eleven or some sort of a commercial entity. So, we have so many
different types of drives and I just want to make sure that we could maybe get some language together that starts us in a direction that can get everybody heading towards compliance. I'm see. Yeah. Does that do
you know what you know what I'm saying? Have you driven around and seen all the >> I have. >> Okay, great. So, >> one of the big things we discussed in our last meetings about this too is that the um the details, the outlines, the measurements, the rules have to be understandable for residents so people
can come into compliance. So, I guess we're looking for some advice on what the actual measurements and rules should be, but then we also need to find a way so that the information is shared with residents in a way that's understandable and can actually get everyone up to up to compliance
>> and code enforcement as well because, >> you know, it's hard for them to identify if there's no clear language and clear resolution if if need be. So, yeah, take it away.
Okay. Well, I'll let you just briefly talk about a little bit of history and and what I understand the regulations are here and then I'll just answer questions from there. Okay. >> Site triangle regulations actually start with the Federal Highway Administration, their green book and it uh doesn't different.
>> I didn't hear what you said in the beginning. >> I'm sorry. it. The regulations all start with the Federal Highway Administration >> and they set the regulations obviously for the whole country generally and uh they primarily focus on freeways and arterials you know larger streets but uh
the language in their thing basically says provision of adequate sight distance at intersections is absolutely essential and should receive a high priority in design process. So they they emphasize this as a critical safety issue to avoid uh collisions and avoid
injuries and or death. They uh because of the roads they primarily focus on sight sight distance sight triangles for for those kind of roads are more based on speed limits and they have a standard of about 14 and 1/2 ft back which would be approximately
where a person sitting in a car back behind a stop stop bar >> 14 and 1/2 ft back from >> from the stop bar >> from the stop bar >> if there is a stop bar or generally the stop bar is supposed to be about 4t off the edge of pavement. >> That was my next question. Yeah, >> the stop bar is 4 ft off of the
>> off the line of traffic, the edge of pavement. >> Okay. >> Extended through the intersection. >> So, it depend 60 mph speed limit. You obviously have to have more of a sight distance because it's more of a stopping distance for a car driving 60. when you drive come down into the FDOT green
book, they carry on that stuff, but then they start talking a little bit about local local roads and minor roads and uh they also start talking about uh it should be for intersections of pavement and driveways and they don't differentiate between a private or a
public driveway or a 7-Eleven or your house. They just say driveways. So, okay, >> the understanding from engineers is that affects every driveway, every connection to a street. Okay. >> Then when you go down to the county, the countyy's standards are pretty
consistent with what the what the town has. Uh there are two standards for a roadway that the uh measurements are 25 ft and they start from the rightway or the easement line, whichever. I mean, we have a lot of easements for roadways
here, but we'll call that a rightaway line just for simplicity of our discussion. Go >> ahead. >> Where does it say that? In the county, it specifically shows it on a drawing, >> but there are two measurements. One for edge of pavement. >> There's not
>> and one for >> they >> yeah big to follow. >> They show the edge of pavement, but the actual measurements come from the rightway line. You you'll see that one. And that like I say, that's a county.
And it's probably better if I just wait a second to get those before I go down to >> to the town's report. >> May I ever make the town's drawing, too? That'll help when we get to yours. making the sounds right there. >> This is a drawing of the county.
>> Thank you. >> Detail. And when I worked here, I know every city in the county had adopted the same standard. I assume that's still the same way, but I I couldn't verify that. >> I'm sorry. Could you say that again?
What happened? >> I said when I worked here before in Wellington, I know every city in the county had adopted the same drawing as a county had. I assume that's still the same now, but I don't know. I didn't go check and verify that every city still has this, but I doubt that they changed them. This is kind of an engineering
issue that you don't want to go too far away from. >> No. Right. >> So, you'll see The dark line says property line along the bottom edge. You see edge of pavement, but none of the measurements are going to the edge of pavement. And then you'll see the the curve of the
street and it goes down and you see the street center line with an edge of pavement on each side. >> So it so this Okay. So the measurements will actually the measurements are in the dashed area and that's a standard 25 you see the 25 ft
25 ft that's clearly shows that it's measured from the extension of the rightway line in both directions and then the corner clip is between the two 25 straight lines. >> How how far back from the pavement does
that measurement start >> exactly? >> Well, it starts where the rightway line is. So that could vary because the pavement could be 25 ft. The payment could be 18 ft. So there's no set distance between a road and a rideway line >> and and different there are different easements. There are different sizes of
rightway. >> There are sometimes there's a 60oot rightway. Sometimes there's a 50ft rideway. So >> there there's no one answer to that question. >> Well, >> it's just the rightway line. That's the legal definition of the width of the
rightway that that the town either owns or has easement to. that that's a line you measure from in both directions. So it doesn't for these direct for these uh measurements it doesn't matter where the street is in the rightway and it doesn't matter the width of the street that has
no bearing on the 25 ft measurements for the streets >> this way >> either way along the main street and along the side street they're both measured at 25 ft at the rightway line >> but it's a bit yeah >> the rightway line is not right up with
the pavement street it's held back like several f feet from the pavement. >> That's correct. Sometimes it might be five feet, sometimes it could be 10 feet off, sometimes it could be 20 feet off. Depends on what the town acquired for the actual rightaway of that street. And again, it depends on the width of the street. Some of your streets are 14 ft, some are 22 feet.
>> We have streets that the town like my high park road, we own to build the road. >> That's our So do I. >> Across the road. >> Yeah. >> And typically then it would be the extension. I I know when you develop we typically required to give an easement >> a dedication for the road so we can
maintain it because otherwise the road is your responsibility to maintain technically if you haven't granted an easement or a rideway >> right they haven't granted easement but my property line is good >> but my understanding now is the town has claimed owner or maintenance responsibilities for over seven years so
by by state law we have taken those over that anything that we've maintained the road >> no that's incorrect because along B road for example Several people gave up 10 ft of a of an easement and a lot of people did not. So
they there will be a a discrepancy. This is why I asked about edge of pavement because there will be a discrepancy as to where an easement is. I can tell you right now mine's two foot. The guy next door to me
is 10 foot. >> Yeah. and that that's not addressed. I mean, the county typically gets their rightaways in area in most areas. So, it's a clear line here. It's not so clear because you're right, there's all kinds of different uh easement
dedications. There's all kinds of rightaways. As I said, I I know the town has claimed prescriptive rights to the portion of the road that they've maintained. Now, how far that goes out, I'm not I'm an attorney. I don't know. So I know at least covers the width of
the road and it covers if we've maintained the drainage immediately to the road to keep the water off the road so the road stays in good shape. >> Most of the people who have who dedicated uh land for the drainage at least on B road
did not sign over the property. They maintain the I maintain my own easement. The town does not >> the swale portion. >> The swale portion and most of the people down the road dedicated. I mean, when I lived in Wellington, I maintained to the street edge. That's pretty standard in
most communities that the towns >> you can't you can't claim prescriptive easement if you're not taking care of my property. Meaning >> I understand that. >> Right. So, I mean that's those are those are scary words here in Locks of Hatche Groves. That is that's just I mean your property is your property. I understand
that. >> So, I mean this is what the county says. I'm I'm only at the county still, >> right? So just describing that it goes from right away to right away 25 ft and then you have that corner clip and that's your sight triangle for the county
>> and the measurement back is from the center line of the street. >> No, >> no, for a driveway it's different. I'm only talking about a road now. For a road I mean not maybe I can come up there and show you. >> Okay, this is street intersection. This is street to street. >> This is draw.
>> Okay, >> ignore that. We're not there yet. If you see this 25 >> 25 ft that's on the rightway line >> 25 ft that's on the rightway line and there's the corner here's the edge of payments that has nothing to do with the >> and what's this one
>> that's uh extended city site distance that county may ask for sometimes that's more based on speed of the road but nobody in nobody no cities enforce that the city's all looked at 25 and 25 that correct >> okay so basically this diagram
>> would would not include this correct. >> So even though our streets are 25 miles per hour, that's 25 ft >> by speed. >> By speed >> it would be it would actually probably if you went by the Federal Highway Administration FD this 25 ft on the side
street would be shorter and the stuff along the main would be longer. That makes sense >> because your speed is faster on the main road. B road dro you're driving faster than you are on the roads coming into tip. >> They're all aren't they all? >> They're all >> They're all supposed to be 25.
>> Yes. >> But nobody does it. >> No, but that is the legal speed. >> Well, and as an engineer, you look at the percentile. If you do a study on something like this, and at that point in time, you see that the average speed on your main road is probably closer to 35 to 38.
>> Yes. probably 25 or 30. That's the real world. >> Oh. Oh. Even though it's posted 25, you're going to look at what's actually happening. >> Look at Brilliant. That's good to know. >> That makes sense. >> That does make sense. >> Designed safely because we didn't take into account what's already happened.
>> Well, okay. Great. >> So, what is this based on? What speed? >> That's not based on speed at all. Oh. >> When you get into local counties and and cities, they just pick this 25 foot measurement and it covers
most most areas. So, it's been a standard. It's pretty much I've worked in four different states and this is almost standard across the country. So, every city seems and county seems to have adopted that 25 foot. And I think the goal is to be as least invasive as
you can. >> Sure. >> But to make it as safe as you can at the same time. >> So, even the extended portion that we just scribbled out a little bit >> would not apply given Okachobee's runway. No. >> Okay. >> Not according to county or town code. It
would not. >> Okay. Cool. >> All right. >> So then we go to the bottom and you you talk about the driveway. Now the driveway on the on the road is measured from the rightway line, but on the driveway it's measured from the edge of
pavement or the driveway because there is no rightaway line. Your driveway is just part of your property. So there's no line to pick to measure that from. So it's traditionally just measured from the edge of the pavement. So if you have a 10-ft driveway, that edge would be one. And then if your
rightway line is, let's say, just for argument sakes, 10 feet off the street pavement, then that 10 foot would be measured from that rightaway line 10t off the street pavement. >> So the big driveways that funnel out like this, >> they don't take into account the flares
>> where the main portion of the straightaway counts of the driveway. I mean, I'm sorry. >> Great. So you just measure the main portion all the way out. You just extend it out to the rightway line. Yes. >> Okay. Okay. And that's 10 and 10.
>> Yes. >> And that's that's pretty minimal. I mean, if you go out and sit in a driveway and you only have a 10 x 10 clip, >> you don't see very far down the road. >> No, you don't. No, you don't. >> But better nothing. And again, they're trying to I think historically tried to
been as little in invasiveness as they can on the private property. >> Okay. The diagrams that we have, >> Karen, that we had been reviewing, those are already adopted by the town. They're just possible. Okay. And there is there
a reason, Gary, that you think we should deviate from the county prescribed measurements? I don't but um now I don't know. No, I don't think you should change. Sorry that when I said that I said well that could be taken two
ways. >> And I think again >> but your your drawing did you pass those out? >> Yeah. >> You only have a drawing for street to street. >> Right. >> Right. >> And you'll see that's exactly the same as a county. >> Right. >> And when you look you don't have a drawing for a driveway, but when you
look at the wording of your driveway, it's exactly the same as a county right now. Also it says your one measurement for the street will be from the what does it intersection of driveway and street >> a little
>> measured 10 ft from the intersection on the street line measured 10 ft from the intersection shall form two legs but it's actually it's the same thing on the street side you're measuring from the right of way line or the easement line, whatever the road has been dedicated for. And from the driver,
you're measuring from the edge of the driver, again, the straight portion, not including the an aprons. So, you you basically, although you don't you don't say it the same, you basically have adopted the same thing the county has. >> And again, the the council said to hold
off anything and for this committee to bring up a recommendation to them. Now, the language that I had brought forward didn't do it to the rightway. I did it to the pavement because I figured that was easier to see than to try to figure out where the rightway line begins or
ends. That was the only reason why I deviated. I I agree many respects with Gary because what happens is this is where the legal comes in place. When some accidents happen, somebody comes back and goes, "Well, why did you do the pavement instead of doing the the, you
know, the rightway?" and the rightway because FOD has it and FHA has it. They have all the data and support to say why we decided that was the best measurement. So that was the only reason because like you said we want to make it easier for somebody to read and because
we have different rightaway lines, we have easements, we don't have easements, everybody can see where the pavement begins and ends, >> right? There's the practical side of like whatever we decide should be the correct measurements and rules, we need people to be able to to adopt that. And
so understanding where the right of way is seems like the biggest >> going to be a huge challenge because a lot of people aren't going to be huge. >> I guess the thing I could argue to try to make not argue but to make it simpler is the county is basically based on a
60oot rightway. That's a standard county rightaway. Pavement is usually 24 feet. So you have 24 plus two for your cur or 12 plus two for your curb and gutters. You have 14 feet. So you have 16 ft between the edge of pavement and a rightway line. Typically in a county
situation like this. So you know may to be consistent with that maybe you do something to say so it's always consistent. 15 or 16 foot off the edge of pavement is where you measure the street right away from and then the driveway you measure right at the
driveway. You know, then you're kind of meeting the standard without having all the rightway in place. >> Would that work practically in our town given the dirt roads and the roads that like there's barely enough room for two cars? >> I think it would. I think it would
because it the narrower your road is presumably they're driving slower also especially on some of these 14 or 12 foot roads presumably. I mean I know I do but I guess some people might want to get through it as fast as they can too so they don't have a conflict with another car. So, I guess I could argue
either way, but I I think for the most part, yeah, if you did some specific distance off the edge of pavement that came close to meeting the rightway standard, then you're always going to be generally in the same ballpark as if you had rightway. >> Okay. >> And then a person can always go out and
measure 15 feet from the pavement and say, "Okay, this is my triangle this way. This my triangle this way." So, I think that works. Do >> So, you think edge of pavement will work or center line? Because again, we have different size lanes. >> I would say the edge of pavement because when you're looking down a road, it's
really the edge of pavement where the car would be. That's your key point that you want to see. And that's what these are based on seeing a car coming down at a certain speed. So, >> okay. >> I would say edge of pavement >> because I know B road's 11 ft and a C road's eight. >> Oh, you've got between seven and 11.
Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. Let me just clarify here. Are you saying that it would be measured from 15 ft from the pavement to into the street? Is what you're saying? No. >> 15 ft from the edge of pavement to the
property. >> Okay. >> So, you went to what would be an imaginary rightway line. >> So, we're going inward is what you're saying. >> Inward towards the house. >> Got it. Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, he's saying go to the edge of payment, go 15 ft towards your house, >> and that's where the line would start.
Mhm. >> And then you would that that would be where you would start at 20 well for us 10 feet this way and 10 feet that way and you get your drying. So >> if that was something you were interested in, you know, I could go look some more at the county standards and see what that distance really is. Is it
14? Is it 15? And you know, we can get close. I don't know that we >> I think we could probably maybe say how many what size what's the biggest easement we have here and go from that, right? Like or something. I don't know. I I think 10 foot is the most we've ever been able to get for drainage.
>> Yeah, >> but it might it might be that the standard isif is >> 12 if it's a standard 50 for rightways. I I didn't look the county standards >> and I don't remember if their minimum is 50 or 60. their minimum was 50 and you
went let's say at 12t road which is a standard county road in in subdivision stuff and then two foot curb and gutter usually that's 14. So if you went 14 down from 25, then you're only talking about 11 ft.
That would meet the same goal as what the county's drawing says, which would be even less invasive. But I mean, if it met the same standard from an engineering standpoint, you can defend that. >> Okay. And so for those those folks who
have hedges that go all the way to the road, I mean it all falls in because this triangle doesn't cover that. It starts at the property line. Some of those
you have like a gated driveway. You have hedges on either side that >> should still be told. >> Where's that falling? because now that's in the in the what's he calling it? >> Easement area, right? >> And so then those can stay and they're just
>> Well, no, I think that's a question maybe for Gary >> as well. >> We were just talking about there are a lot of properties in town, some older, some newer, that have say a gated driveway. Like the driveway is clearly defined and they have a large tall row
of hedges on either side of the driveway. And so what what do we do about that? >> That's a legal question. >> Mhm. >> I mean, ideally from an engineering standpoint, I would say you need to go and set up some kind of a program to
make them come into compliance over a certain period of time, whatever that be, a year, two years, whatever. But from an a legal standpoint, this is a documented safety concern. So, if somebody pulled out of a driveway
that you described and got hit and somebody got killed, then the legal question is, okay, they're liable, but is the town also liable for not enforcing the regulations? You could be or you couldn't be. I'm not an attorney, so I can't answer that question, but you might be. >> But I think my question, my question is
that the diagram would show that those hedges that are in the easement aren't in the triangle. Right. >> She's saying, >> but they come all the way up to the driveway. That's the problem. So that
right like that. So this triangle, >> these hedges run right up to the edge of many of the roads. So they're not actually in the line of sight triangle. >> Well, >> they're worse. Right. They're exactly there.
>> What you're saying is like here. >> So how do we get a diagramage? they are in the sight triangle because you have to assume that >> everything that's not in there within the right not assume I mean that is the detail that has to be clear also >> so that has to be on the diagram this
>> this is additional to the roadway being clear so you can see this is an addition to it >> okay that that that's some language that to me would not be clear like just looking at this right >> okay >> I would say oh I'll clear my triangle and then my bushes can stay down the
edge of the road >> I didn't think about that. But that's a good point. >> That's kind of why I was bringing up edge of pavement because that's a because most of those a lot of those big >> Yeah. to meet the standard they would have to stop at that 25 ft with their
bushes. I mean they could come up even in a rideway they could come up to there because it's not that's an extension then it's at the 25 point. >> As soon as they hit the 25 they would have to move those back remove them whatever they had to do >> or drop them down to 33. Right. We have 33 inches.
>> Yeah. >> Right. So they Okay. All right. >> The standard measurements to me seem very reasonable. Um and I think the question is how do we actually outline that for people because I think there's a lot of properties and a lot of
intersections that are not in compliance with this. >> And so I've come out of it inspections and I'm scared to death. >> We all stories. We all live here. We all have those stories. And so I think that without um we we need to find some way to adopt
safer intersections without um being unreasonable for residents because most people have no idea about this. >> And even if like if we sent this to people, I don't think people would understand it either. So >> um we >> No. And we could work on a drawing that
might be simpler to understand, but that wouldn't be difficult, >> right? I mean, even like you talked about the rightway, it's really just an extension of that >> clip. We just extend it right to the pavement >> basically. I mean, I'd have to look at that with speed and everything. It might angle a little bit differently, but it's
basically just an extension of that. >> And oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. >> My only issue would be like like we have on our little street corner there is where would this actually start? Because, you know, we own right up to the street and if like they have the bushes right up to the street. So there's basic there's no white area
there. It's a street and then there's the line there. >> Yes. >> So this whole lot the whole side of triangle should be slid back a few feet which would make a little more sight instead of being right up at the street because right now basically it's right up at the street where they start the line of sight. There's no three feet or
five feet back from the pavement and then you start the triangle. It's started right up at the street. >> Yeah. So there's bushes in that situation that would have to >> Well, they're 25 ft back, but they're right up against the street. So there's no how this is all slid back. This isn't it's not slid back.
>> We don't have curve sidewalk >> infrastructure like that. >> No, but you have an edge of pavement and that's where it would be measured. >> But that you measure for edge of pavement. It's not >> Well, you don't do the measurement. That's why I'm suggesting you pick an 11 ft or 12 feet or whatever becomes reasonable that you know I can support
for you based on county standard. Say you're measuring from 11 foot off the pavement. That's where you're starting your site trying. >> You would you never started at the pavement. >> Places where there are zero feet off the or one foot, you know, and that's uh that's going to be growing. There are bushes growing over the road.
>> Yeah. >> To meet the intent of this, you really have to start from the point of there's a 50ft rideway for that road. And that's what that's how they developed this. Assuming that they're like many places in the county, >> 50 foot ride away from >> I understand. So you have to create an
imaginary line where that would be to start your measurement from >> would you be in people's property then? >> So what you I guess the the tricky thing is right is to write it up a design design a diagram for the situations that
is easy for people to navigate along with language that helps them understand you know >> what it is you're trying to get done. But I feel like too there's going to be some push back. >> Well, they do the 50 thing like
collecting canal is 20 feet wide and there's two foot perm to the water and then it's our property right on the edge of the road. So you're going to try and tell people we got 30 feet back into their property because for 50 feet for the road it's not going to fly. >> It's not going to fly. >> No, that's what I'm saying. You would only look at like 11 feet off the edge
of pavement. >> 11t. So you'd be >> but well a lot of places on the main roads you've acquired at least 10 ft of easement now. So there typically wouldn't be anything in that 10 ft. I know there are in certain instances I've
seen them. But yeah, eventually to enforce this, you are going to have some impact on private property and their busher lines and potentially fence lines >> and right I mean well fence line that's the other thing is if they not not
making them remove anything but at least cut it down in the area that you can see right around. Well, that's what that one standard had like less than what? 24 inches, you know, within the sight triangle is okay because you're looking over it, >> right? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's got to be under 30 >> 33 or 34 in. And then over 8 feet, >> right? >> But you have to have that window in between. So, we need a a proposal for the diagram and and way to make it understandable for people, but then also
some sort of time frame for uh folks to come into compliance once they're notified that >> well and and I think too it needs to be a very organized sort of ask right here here's what here's what we're doing. We've been lax for x amount
of years. So we're going to start we're going to go from a road to b road I don't know I don't know not suggesting or not but just somehow that people so a that you can identify track follow up and that people have time to comply. >> Yeah.
>> Right. And it's not an aesthetic issue. It's a safety issue. And I think that would be very important too in terms of >> to the part of the argument a legal thing. I mean, they too have some liability if somebody gets killed and they're not complying with with the law. And they can't claim ignorance.
>> You know, you can never claim ignorance of law, even if you don't know about it. >> But I mean, this this is in your code. >> Maybe not as clear as it should be, but it's in the code. It's in the county code and it's in the state code and it's in the federal code. So, >> right, it's nothing to be ignored. That's for sure. I don't I don't think
anybody doesn't want the roads to be safe. I love that. what's the um it's usually it's what we call an amorization provision which gives them time in which to take care of the situation. Um, you know, we'd also try to see, um, a lot of
jurisdictions have a program set into place for people, >> um, you know, where you can get volunteers who can come help from different organizations, um, or, you know, nonprofit organizations that might be able to assist again because not everybody has a lot of money that they
can, you know, just put out at this time. Um, so we'd have to do something like that. But time frame from your guides because there's no right answer on amorization I can tell you that um you know so um is there a thought is it
6 months six years >> for an individual or for the town I mean >> should be based on notice how long should people be given to to make the changes >> right
well say unless they have a lack of funding Six months would be plenty, >> right? A year seems like a really long time, >> right? Exactly. Given that it's a safety issue, >> well, if they have lack of funding like our neighbor, you know, if he was in the corner, then the town will have to do it
more. But that's only a handful of cases, I'm sure. >> Well, proving that you don't have the funding. I'm sure everyone would say, "Well, I don't have the funding. I can't do it." So, I'm not sure how it is. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But you got a nice BMW in your driveway.
I love that Rolex. I'm sure there have to be a process to apply for help if you need it, but or if they're not if they don't or they don't live here. They just own property that happens to be I feel like it's I think we discussed this too. I feel like it's
also it has to be multi-layered because there are people who have a driveway and they're on a corner and so, you know, for them to to be notified that they have two situations and not just one. so that they don't fix one thing and be like, "Oh, there I'm good." And then six
months later that here they are in code enforcement because they didn't realize that the road was also part of it. I mean, I feel like it it might be a little there has to be some way that goes out and not just hanging these things on fences. I saw plenty on fences
that I know were still hanging there because people don't use that fence, >> right? or they don't live here and you know those people would be in code violation at this point not because they wanted to be because they actually didn't receive the notice. >> So if you want to really want to be proactive I mean we can print out an
aerial of a piece of property that has a problem we could draw a line and say this is the property this is what you have to clear to meet the conditions >> I think as part of the communication. So, I think what we would do is typically we would send a courtesy notice out first and say, you know, a new ordinance has
been adopted. This is what it requires. If you have any questions, we'll we sit down and talk with you. I would say >> So, you say send out, what do you mean? Sorry, I'm >> I'm sorry. >> When you say send out, >> typically it goes to the it goes regular and certified mail to the property address in the property appraisers
office. That's typically where it goes when we send notices out because your point is I mean, I can also post it. It doesn't matter. But you know, you're right. Not everybody gets it. But that's typically legal notice is how you get to somebody. >> Okay. But as a courtesy notice, you
would go through those steps be because let's go back if the one I got was and the ones that was I didn't I we didn't get one mailed to us. It was hanging. It was actually So >> that process was not it didn't happen that way. Correct. So this is a new kind
of idea about a courtesy. Okay. >> Correct. for this one. I think especially if we're going to go back to council and ask them to adopt because it would have a better diagram and would have a better explanation. I do think that you have to educate people first before you go out. I think six months if
that's the decision you should have with the ability to extend up to another six months based upon the documentation that they provide us. Whether that's a financial need, whether that's I'm going to be at horse, I'm going to be in Saudi Arabia for the next three months so I
can't do it. or whether it's because I have two areas I need to do and I I can't whatever it is. So they'd have the ability to to submit it for us to take a look at it to take a look. Um you know if they want to go you can say if they want to go beyond a year they got to come to council. I mean that's another option you can say if you think that a
year is too long um because most people don't want to go in front of you know in a public hearing to have to talk about a situation but um certainly we can do you know something something along those lines. So Karen, what do you think is the right
um order of events here if if I think this group agrees that we should adopt something more clear for the town and then we'll have some other steps. But if we're if we actually need to propose something to the council, um what do you think the steps to put that together in
the time frame is? >> So what I think is between now and your next meeting, Gary and I will work together. We'll modify the language. Maybe we even adopt the county language. So there's makes it clearer because that's what the county I don't know you and I can talk about it. We can provide
the diagrams as you asked before for each situation. Oh and I did bring I did ask um Craig to bring forward to the right never know that committee name but thank you. Um and they did they didn't have any changes recommended for the trail. >> Okay.
>> Um so they were good with what they had. Um and let us bring back to you if you're good with that language then I would bring it back. I've got to bring it to the planning board and then I bring it to the council. >> Right. Sorry, just on the trails, the equestrian trails and how they meet with
the driveways. So, um, they had not discussed the problem because right now the way that's written with the trails where they meet the driveway, basically no one is in compliance. >> And so, did they understand that or >> I'm not sure. I will clarify with Craig
again. I know they're not meeting this month. So, I we'll try to get back, but we've got a little bit of time. sure >> get that taken care of and then once it gets adopted then my recommendation is educate and then go forward because it is a life health safety issue when we
don't want to wait forever to get it done >> right and the equestrian trails are very important making sure they're safe as well um but there probably would be probably managing the road and driveway issues is first first order of business especially because we know the way the
trails meet cross all of these driveways um isn't in compliance. We can't just ask everyone to to change that. >> Right now, you don't even have a section that talks about trails and driveways, only trails and streets. >> So, we'd have to incorporate something to deal with that.
H and the other thing is too is just I wanted to make sure that when you're just borrowing county verbiage um I don't see anything that we are allowing for fences as long as they are allowed to as long as you can see through them
right that's not in the county that doesn't say it says no fences no buildings no nothing in the line of sight but we allow for like split rails or you know >> the green book allows for that >> through it we allow for that here. >> I think the county does have that language some it's in the written part
just not >> because I couldn't find it. Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, are we do did we kill you? Did we exhaust you? You want more questions? >> Fine. >> And I I'm sorry that I have to say this,
but at 5 I have to leave for a meeting that I couldn't leave. Um so I'm not sure how that affects things going forward. Obviously, if you can talk a month without me, that's fine, too. >> Do a quorum. >> We still have a quorum, but what do we what do we want to do regarding this? Do
we want to have a a motion to to >> That'd be great. So, the motion would be for staff to present at the next meeting opposed language and diagrams that are clear and meet the intent of our
discussion today, right? which is >> which would be again we we have to add on regarding the trail and driveway, >> right? >> We have to add the two diagrams for the trail and street >> and trail and driveway.
>> Trail and driveway and the driveway. Remember, because we only have one, right? We need to clarify again. We're not going from we're going 15 feet or Gary will figure out what the right distance is. We'll figure that out and then we'll do a diagram I actually kind
of have here and do that. And then I think we have to add in the language that talks about the rightway because I think that's you're saying there's two different codes. There's the rightway that's supposed to be cleared and then there's the line of sight that we have language. >> Well, the rightway is
>> belongs to the county and they clear it down here. >> But I'm not just saying >> we don't own that. That is >> because that answers your question. If somebody does a shrub all the way to the edge of pavement, if you're in the right ofway, it's not supposed to be in the rightway unless you have permission from
the county if it's a county or from the town if it's the town. >> So maybe there's a way to just add that into a drawing, a diagram. That's a different kind of hatch mark that says if you have shrubs in this area, >> yeah, >> they also have to be trimmed down.
>> They have to comply with >> comply with the rest of the codements or whatever it is. Shouldn't that come back to us before it goes to staff and the town council? Because >> it will. Yeah, that's what I'm suggesting. The next meeting to come back to you for you to give the okay once we get the okay, then it would go
forward to the planning board and then it would go to the council after that. >> So, it's just that this staff that we're talking to now would prepare it for us for the next meeting and then move some desk unless somebody wants to do it. >> Well, always take volunteers.
>> Well, I have some drawing, but Um, >> okay. Does that make sense? Everybody in agreement? >> Yeah. >> Good. >> Don't need a motion. >> You want the >> Oh, yeah. You want to do a motion? Yeah. >> Yeah. Would somebody got a motion? Anyone?
>> Motion to do what Karen said. >> I second. Thanks, Robert. >> I can't remember everything you said. >> All in favor? I >> I that motion passes. >> Karen, did you say I?
>> No, I did not. >> Is there something you want to change about the the process? >> Can I mean not really. I I think we need to see what he brings forward because I'm a little concerned about the where
they're measuring from and that >> right. That's why I want to see what they bring forward because there's all different areas and different measurements. It's like I think when they're trying to get that drainage easement on our property, they want it only like five feet off of the road, but now he's saying the measurements 10 ft off. So, we'll see how far back that
goes. And >> honestly, I think I'm just going to take what the minimum, what the county right away would be the edge of pavement, and I'm just going to pick a dimension off the edge of pavement, whe that's 11 or 12 feet. So, it's easy for everybody to measure. It's easy to see in the field.
It's easy for me to see it. We'll just ignore the rightway thing, but we'll keep the same make the same idea. We'll do it a different way. >> Right. That's just for measure just for line of sight. Like they have bushes. As long as they trim them down, they can keep the bushes. They just have to be trimmed down for line of sight. I
>> I So you're saying 11 to 12 feet from the middle of the road? >> No, from the edge of the >> That's what I talked about. Typically in a county in a county drawing in a typical rightway it would be a 50 rightway and they're saying measure from the rightway line and the 50 rightway is
typically about 11 or 12 feet off the edge of the page. >> I'm saying this >> so instead of just saying whatever it is that's mentioned and this is your >> I'll figure that out and we'll just say >> after another 15t back yes >> 15 ft right from the edge of payment or whatever it is
>> or 10 ft like 10 or 11 back and that starts the line of sight vote. saying which Joe is asking is this area is assumed to be assumed okay to be the right of way and so that's why this is also supposed to be cleared or supposed to be lower where it meets the same requirement as
>> that seems like that's way too much this should be the 10 ft I'm sorry that seems >> Karen saying you want from the edge of pavement rather than >> I think that's excessive that's what it's not gonna that's exactly the point if we ch if the measurement comes from
edge of pavement It's not going to extend it to a 35 ft. >> Yes, it is. >> Is it? >> She just showed. >> Well, in order to meet in order to meet Okay. It may it may very well, Karen. If
that is how it meets the safety code, including the right of way, we you you know, we my understanding of this conversation is we can't change it. I mean, we I guess we could do whatever we
want. It would not be my suggestion to change it to make it less safe than what the county and the state and every other county does as far as measurements. >> Well, if you go by what >> I don't want to do that >> this street, >> you go by my street right now, hide parks. >> Yes.
>> When what you're saying, he is in compliance with those bushes because the line of sight that goes from pavement to the middle, >> then he's in compliance. We measured it. We would not be hiding >> if his bush is
>> with what you're saying. Use the edge of