But where are they put on side? >> Well, we were fam and I were looking at some different unit like the technology is so interesting and so um we were talking we had informal with the town um before the holidays about like well
She's patiently waiting. >> Okay, now we're live. >> Well, Karen, >> hi. Would someone else know you? >> She is supposed to be here. Um, I don't know if she's coming later, but she had
said that she would be here. No. Call this meeting to order. Oh yeah. >> I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under
God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. All right, I'm going to do the roll call. Chair Joseph Iliano, >> present. >> Vice Chair Karen Plant, uh, committee member Daniel Herity, and
then committee member Robert Austin, >> present. >> Town manager Ramalia, community standards director Karen Gardner Young >> here, >> and then assistant to the town clerk Gabriela Crosdale is present. >> Two, do we three is a quorum? Mhm. >> Excellent.
>> Um, the first thing is additions, deletions, and or modifications to the agenda. >> None proposed. >> I would like to perhaps ask you a question, Karen, regarding this, >> but do I have to answer? >> Nope. >> Okay, good. >> Well, I don't know. >> Try it on board.
>> What can I do for you? Well, as I'm looking through the nuisance abatement, I'm wondering if it dovetales in with this um line of sight at all in an effort to help those who have been
asked to clear debris or clear um uh vegetation. um if we might be able to discuss both things sort of at once and maybe get some clarification on the actual
um portion of the code that's going out regarding the line of sight for clarity for because this is all as I understand it driveways at this point, >> right? >> And so that those people then have a place in a you know in a Karen's here.
You want me to What are you looking >> You see where I'm at? >> Oh, trying to read my name. So, I'm >> No problem. If If it again, it's a committee thing, right? You guys are good with it. I'll just go and go make copies so that you have the actual language in front of you, which would make sense.
>> All right. So, can I just I'll maybe bring swing you guys up to date. Okay. >> So, um there is a townwide, is that correct? >> Yes, town wide. townwide uh notice going out to um residents who have a driveway
that has vegetation that that falls short of the line of sight um recommendations for I I think it's DOT that puts those out. Uh and I myself got one and when I was reading through it and trying to figure out how to do it,
it's really unclear and I serve on the committee. All right. So, I'm thinking that maybe while we're looking at the nuisance abatement and trying to somehow maybe work them together, we could clean up the language in that for those people who have received this um this this
notice of violation so that they can get in compliance easier than not. >> Makes sense. >> It sounds very related. And I think that some of the language in here, I was starting to really go through it is is just confusing. >> Completely confusing. So I think that it
can be probably trimmed and clarified, >> right? Just do some housekeeping. Okay. So do I have a consensus that we sort of put that modification into >> into what what you just talked about? >> No. Well, because we're on modifications to the agenda and I suggested that we
sort of add in this this this uh uh complaint that's going out to several residents townwide. It's should be it's probably going to be I mean if I drive around and look at the driveways that would well in this it's going to be a majority of them
>> some hidden driveways >> a majority of them. If you have a gate it's considered access. If it's considered access it's considered into the line of sight. Doesn't matter if so say that again. >> If you have a gate it's considered
access. If if you have access it has to follow line of sight. Period. >> The line of sight definition or requirements are being reviewed by a different committee. >> No, there are. >> Oh, okay. >> It's code, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Nobody's reviewing it right now. >> I see. But it's just it I see. That's
But it made you think of that because >> because now there are going to be a lot of people mean those who want to get in compliance that are going to be chopping down a significant amount of vegetation and >> nuisance abatement would fall under that
those things sitting there >> for this. Okay. So, okay. Now, how to do that? That's You can help me. You can help me. >> You want to start? >> So, that we have a cons I asked for a consensus and we're Karen's just playing
a little catchup. >> Take your time. >> Yes, I agree. >> We had to do this on our street and my neighbor I told him he's got those U Lucies right there. I said, "No, your block allows people coming." >> Oh, at the end of last week. Yeah.
>> It's very hard. >> I told Adam that before that you really need to trim those back more. >> Yeah. >> Very hard. >> And if and if we So, if we can make the language a little clearer, I think everybody would be happier to Well, um a majority would be happier to uh
comply. >> So, what's the motion? Sorry, >> it was just asking if there's a consensus for us to look at that what dovetailing in with with the nuisance abatement that we're supposed to look at. >> People are getting notices about this, right? >> Yeah, we got Saturday.
>> Yeah, the consensus is fine. I just need a motion to receive and file the um paper that was presented. >> Do I have a motion? >> I'll make a motion. Second. All >> in favor? I passes 4 Z.
Okay. So, we still need to then approve the minutes. Yes. >> Does anybody have any? I did actually. Um on page four
it's actually yeah down the the um after in a master ma can you guys hear me? Sorry, master sign plan language. The second bullet, >> right? Says committee members discussed the following regarding the
implementation of a master sign plan. And one of the bullets was how the master sign plan may be viewed as a preliminary or proactive decision that could increase commercial commercialization within the area. I
don't recall us wanting that to be a uh >> Yeah, that's fine. I'm just saying like yes to the Yeah, >> I'm so delete it out. >> Yeah, I can modify the minutes to reflect that. So, I can delete that. >> Yeah, because I don't think any of our
goals were to increase commercialization with signs. >> And then on page five, Yep. The first one. Are we on the Okay. Whether it should be included that community standards director can make changes to master sign plan. I thought
that we had sort of said that we thought it would be best if those changes went to the to the council. >> We did say that. >> Okay. And then I'll change that to that as well. >> Okay. And then all the way Oh, then I
just have a quick question on a sentence. Uh the the last sentence above C on same page five says including signs that have been established pre-incorporation. I don't understand that sentence. Um I
think this was like in regards to you guys talking about like certain signs that would or wouldn't like I guess abide by the master sign plan pre-incorporation. But I can if you want me to change that one I can change it as well. >> You wanted them all included. The way I
read this was just that it was sort of should be one sentence. So it was like the first sentence would said but also the way it could affect an existing signage including signs that have been established pre-incorporation. >> So a comma instead of a period. >> Yeah, that was how I read that. Okay.
>> I think it makes sense that way in terms of what was discussed. >> Okay. >> Okay. And then then then I think my last one on minutes. Yeah, my last one on minutes is the third bullet under um
chapter under C says awnings and canopies are not hurricane friendly. Believe that porch signs could be better for signage. I thought that awnings were already we already had established that awnings and canopies are not permitted. >> Yeah, that's what you said, >> right? So that >> Okay, I can
>> So yeah, I think this was just a list of things that we discussed. Yes. >> As opposed to proposed for change like the way that section was it just says that we discussed possible things >> right but I don't want anybody to read
the minutes and think that we thought that awnings just would be okay if they were made hurricane for like because they're already prohibited. >> I can add a sentence that says that they're already prohibited. >> Excellent. All right. That's my take on minutes. Anybody else?
>> You had mine. >> I got yours. >> Yeah. >> All right. And then I can either um like make the changes and then bring them to the next meeting for approval or you can approve them and then just I will make the changes like you can say approve with the modifications. It's up to you
guys. >> Anybody? >> Okay. We'll we'll see them again if you don't mind. Thanks. >> Okay. We can So now I have to because the first page isn't in the first page spot.
All right. All right. Public comments. Is that where we are? >> Yeah. I don't have any public comment cards at the moment. So >> you have no public comment cards?
>> Are you sure? Check again. Check again. There's one under your desk. I know it. Okay, Karen, you >> I'm on >> I'm gonna throw it to you. >> All right. So, tonight's main topic was
nuisance abatement. And um the reason why it was an item that was brought up by the council, but one of the reasons why I'm bringing it forward is, believe it or not, in my opinion, which I think Jeff's in agreement, this is one of those that's not impacted by Senate Bill 180. The Senate Bill 180 as we talked
about is really development regulations and nuisance abatement is not a development regulation. So I figured let's finally bring something that when you make the change I can bring the recommendation back to whoever is the next committee and we can actually begin
to process it. So um I did give you the language that is presently there. Now, nuisance abatement is basically it's the ability of the town to go in and correct certain problems. So, it's not a blanket. It means only what's listed in
here were allowed to come on to your property after proper notice in order to remedy the problem. Typically, the rationale is for a life health safety issue. So, as Joe brought up for the line of sight, if you can't see around,
as we talked about, you can hit a car. So, it's life, health, safety. If you have junk on the property, it could be rats could, you know, could live there and now it's a health issue. So, those are generally it doesn't work. I can't go on to remove your RV. So again, it's
limited in its actions, but it does again under certain circumstances allow us to go on the property and actually remedy the situation. Typically the kind of things you do, it could be a fence. A lot of times it's a house that might be
unoccupied and so you want to put like the boards on the walls, the windows so people don't go in. Those are the type of circumstances or removing the landscaping that's in the way of the line of sight. I have not used it since I've been here and that's been since
>> April of this year. >> You have not used nuisance abatement? >> I have never used the nuisance abatement since I've been here in April. Not saying it hasn't been used. I don't know. But again, I know the next question is, have you ever I haven't used it. Okay. But it is there as a remedy if we ever needed to use it. Um,
again, a couple of the things that, you know, I I'd like you I didn't want to talk about things that staff was looking at because I wanted you to have it as a blank screen and for you to take a look at it because if I give you and say this is what my concern is, then you zero in
on that instead of looking at the whole um project. Um the one item that was for me um a biggest concern and I don't know if it hit it upon everybody else is the time notice yeah >> that I have to give and it's 20 days and
I'm thinking >> I'm like why I'm if I'm going to go in I should go in what why you know I mean again the intent is to get the attention of the owner right and so that they contact us I mean obviously if they contact us and going to take care of it but if they're not here or they're not
taking care of it some of these things really shouldn't wait for 20 days for me first to be able to get in. So that was the big one for me. And I'm not saying there isn't anything else in here, but if you were to ask me what's the one that gives me the most angst, that's the one that gives me the most angst. So
with that, I'm then this is kind of like these things are workshops. It's not for me to tell you what to do. It's for you to kind of discuss amongst yourself, give some suggestions. You know, I can give you some back or forth if I have information, but that's really what this isn't at this point is
really, like I said, for you guys to talk about. And Joe, you decide whether you want to do it a section by section, whether somebody has, you know, what area you want to talk about, however you decide you want to go, go forth. So, that's my spiel.
All right. Well, in my opinion, in my opinion, I like there's like there's a lot of layers. I I I feel like if nuisance abatement is something that sort of gives code the permission to to rectify the
situation, you feel like they do need some notice and also a plan of how you right what the problem is and then how you plan to fix it, right? Um, but
I also feel like it didn't seem to me I don't know it it didn't seem clear enough as to exactly what are what nuisance abatement
and the ability for count for a code enforcement to go onto the property. It didn't it did not sound like that to me that that that was the motivating thing was that we're giving you this notice and in 20 days as as it reads now we'll come in
and take care of it. So I kind of feel like that needs to be a little >> the problem with nuisance abatement I think is it's very subjective. It's not giving us a clear
thought as to what exactly it is that I mean they say >> you mean just those words or you mean what >> almost everything that's here the town manager shall determine whether under the provisionous article the imminent public health threat exists. Um,
>> so why don't we why don't we do >> I think that's a I think that's a problem for I mean what she was saying earlier that they don't even want to give 20 days on some of these if imminent threat exists they want to be able to go on your property and do what they need to do. >> What What do you think Karen would be an imminent threat?
>> What would I deem an imminent threat? So I would use uh in the past I've used like you have a swimming pool that's gets mosquitoes, right? It's green. You got kids around. Now again we're a little different. I'm not, you know, acknowledging that, but that's like a life health safety equipment.
>> For who? For the public or for the homeowner? >> For the public and the homeowner. Could be both. >> Because you're breeding mosquitoes. >> Mosquitoes. >> So, what do you what is your what would in the past if you've done that before, what would the remedy be? >> So, typically you would either cover it. You can do a cover so nobody can get in
the water and fall fall in and drown or the mosquito water wouldn't be there. Um, you can drain it potentially. um you could shock it with, you know, and we as a town and public works have
the equipment and the I'm just the capability to do that. Like I get that that's a pool and that's one thing, but I'm sure we're going to sit here and come up with two or three more things that would be eminent. >> It says stagnant water. I said, is that a pond? I have a pond that has stagnant
water with lots of mosquitoes. Are you going to do something about my pond? Well, maybe we could talk for a minute about what the expected procedure is, right? Like where nuisance abatement would come into play. So is what h is the first step that someone makes a complaint to town hall about a neighbor
or property they see like I'm just trying to understand like what role this plays so that we can figure out how to better clarify it. I think >> for both the town staff as well as as the residents. So, and so maybe it's and
correct me if I'm wrong, is it that someone makes a complaint and then the town has to investigate that complaint in some way, right? And so at first they can't go on the property, right? Mhm.
>> So then if they have some evidence that there is an issue, then they would then the town would submit a notice to the property owner and say, "We need now need to come in and inspect because we have a complaint that there's an issue."
Is that right? >> Correct. >> No. Section 30-7 actually says that they can come onto the owner's property without any notice whatsoever if it is a um imminent public health threat. >> So how would they know if it was an how would the town know if it was an im
imminent public health? >> That's what I'm saying. It's very subjective, >> right? So I think um to just figure so maybe we can think about what we think the appropriate procedure. I mean, unless it's vacant, you have people living there. Like, say they came onto my property and I have five dogs and now
the dogs are loose because they cut the fence open because there's a chain. Now, what? >> Right. Right. So, how would So, what is the fair and reasonable way for the town to um like they have to have some evidence that there's >> Well, normally it would be and and you
are correct, Danielle, that typically we we operated here on a complaint basis, right? We generally don't do our own but one example might be line of sight because that might be something that would be you know town initiated but typically most of it isn't and this isn't this
isn't the im the first remedy >> understand the first is to deal with it as we would a code case right >> right try to get you know send courtesy notice try to get them to comply on their own but if we're not getting a response I see okay then we would or if
I clear either >> all the neighbors is coming around to me and saying, "Oh my god, Karen, you know, then I may go on." >> But that's not what this says. This doesn't say any remedies were tried before they are allowed to jump on your property. >> Can add language in there about that if that's what the intention is and that's
what the procedure is. We should make sure that the all these documents reflect that. >> Are we just missing that portion of the >> Oh, I again, you know, I left here. I'd have to, you know, >> right? I mean, is it in there? Is it in the code somewhere that says prior to >> I'd have to No, it's not. I don't think because you generally don't do it
because again this is an extreme remedy >> because look think about it >> the town doesn't want to go on the property. Don't misunderstand me because now I'm paying to do the work that I got to collect, >> right? And I and again it's your private
property. We don't want to go on. But if it is to the degree that this is that's impacting others, this is another arm that we could utilize rather than having to go to court and spend, you know, nine months to try to get a problem resolved, >> right? And so I think that that's a real
incentive for us to make sure the language is clear because if the town actually had to take next steps, um some of this language is very confusing and I think hard to >> it could be argued in many different ways. And so I think it makes a lot of sense to try to clean this up.
>> Well, well, let me just Oh, I'm sorry. I was say I could have a notification procedure that's for any of these things that would include like certified letters and all this that the homeowner is given and that could be whatever section A and section A was completed before we try to do this for any of them
because if section A is just the procedures you need to do before the property including you know notifying certified letters trying to get them to do it themselves but that could pertain to any of these things as long as section A was completed right prior now we can take the next steps of
>> or not completed. >> Right. Not completed. Right. >> Right. or unless unless nuisance abatement in municipal lingo means that that that that's where they that they've already done all that because I mean I think I can do nuisance abatement but
does that do those does that language nuisance debatement mean 100% that that's it's it's allowing if you filed a nuisance abatement on this property it it that's that's already what you're
planning on doing is going on it because they've they've failed to comply with the other >> corrections. >> Yeah, there is a require again the nuisance abatement requires notice to be sent before we go on the property providing them now 20 days to correct.
>> Okay. >> If they do not correct it in 20 days, then based on the notice language that's in here, then we would have the right in order to go on unless they appeal it, which they can appeal. >> Sure. And the appeal process is in here as well. >> But so is that so that my question is do
the words nuisance abatement mean that you've exhausted all the other things? And and once you see the words nuisance abatement in any in any code, it means that that the town has is now allowed to go on the property and
rectify the situation or does it just mean do you do you see what I'm saying? Do do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah. I think I know what you're asking, but I think that this um is not the first step >> in the process, >> right? >> So,
so we want to clarify, I think, what the actual what the procedure is. >> So, the I guess maybe look at it this way. The only difference between a code case and a nuisance abatement, right? On a code case, you give notice just like you do in the nuisance abatement. The
only difference is in the code case, all it does is allow me to go in front of the special magistrate and obtain a piece of paper that says you're in violation and you can potentially get fined. >> The fine doesn't cause the correction. >> Right.
>> Okay. The nuisance statement is the same process. Don't go in front of the special magistrate though. you get the notice and if you don't do the correction then I have the right to come on because this process takes too long to get the correction done. Does that happen? That makes sense.
>> And there's a sort of an aspect of of danger in a way with the new issues like there is a public health issue or a safety issue and so that's why it has its own set of lines. >> Correct. And that's why again it's limited is it own transportation by
saying it's to prohibit these items. >> Like I said, I I can't go in and and >> take your RV off, for example, it's not in here. >> Yeah. Awesome. >> It's just another avenue to provide the town the opportunity to correct a problem that could potentially be a
community or health life safety issue. >> Okay. I think what we need to work on though is wording so that it's not so subjective because saying somebody has a lot of grass, a lot of weeds, stagnant water, I mean these are common things in
this town because we're an agricultural community with a lot of a lot of animals. I think the intention is not for everyone to be reporting on everyone else about every little thing or and the town's not really that interested in going around and looking over
everybody's fences. >> But I do think that the language is very broad and can be improved a lot. >> Yeah. And that's the problem. I have a problem with the language. I don't think it's concise enough. I think it gives too much leeway to somebody making a bad
decision. >> Sure. Some of my notes to myself about some of the items were like, "Oh, well, who decides this, right?" Like, "Who who decides that that's a danger or who decides that?" >> Me, too. And I like was so with for me,
I was thinking my example was um RVs. And I would suppose that the health department like how do you know if they're actually using a septic allout person and they're not just pulling the hose out and then dumping it in a canal, right? to me that needs to be fixed
right away. Um or a trailer that doesn't have a septic t. So who right who decides? >> Right. And so I guess I have a question about the procedure. Karen is um if something has already had code violations written up
>> um do you uh are those processes separate or they can happen like could there say someone made some complaints about you know an RV drainage um and that was a code violation and
things can you then also go after that person for a nuisance like as a nuisance B because There are two processes, right? >> Yeah. You don't usually usually you don't want to confuse the remedy, right? Um so if you're going to use the
nuisance abatement, typically you would go the nuisance abatement, you wouldn't be doing a code plus a nuisance abatement. >> And who would decide that? Like if an issue came to the town, say there were several complaints about a property, who um how would that work? Who would decide whether it was a nuisance abatement
issue or a crow violation? So typically what would happen is staff would discuss amongst themselves and then typically would go to the town manager and confer with the town manager >> and and public health and safety is your umbrella >> first and foremost or only >> nope that's our first and foremost again
we do other things than code I do signage signage is in the life health safety right you talked about it but this you don't use that under nuisance abatement nuisance abatement the umbrella is life health safety >> beautiful that's okay that's helpful >> like I said I wouldn't use it to take a
sign off of somebody's property. No, that's a code case, >> right? So, it would make sense for us to review this language, >> thinking about it, making sure it's separate from the >> health and safety. Health and safety, >> but that it's a little bit separate from the code violation. >> Um, because it should be
this is a different set of circumstances. >> Health and safety. I mean, well, I mean, maybe well, right. So, is it including the the the um health department or forestry? Say somebody has a big pile of brush that has not been burned down and we're coming into dry season, we haven't
had any rain. That seems like a very dangerous thing, >> especially say around the 4th of July or you know, like are there >> are there agencies that you work with to help determine that or that you I mean
those sort of things sort of seem common sense to me. I don't think a big tri rush. >> Well, usually what would happen in that instance is the fire department or forestry would come to us and say, "Hey, Karen, this is a situation. Can you help us out to remedy it?" And then we would go back and say, "Okay, what's the tools
we have?" And, you know, hey, do you think that, you know, if we needed an immediate response, then let's go do the nuisance abatement. If it's not an immediate, then we can go ahead and do the code if that's what's needed. I mean, that's really what nuisance abatement is. It's it's an immediate response to a situation that we feel
needs to be addressed. >> Okay. >> Right. And not just with a fine. >> Correct. Correct. >> But it needs to be >> because remember it's the remedy. The the nuisance of actually comes to the conclusion of remedying it. The code case I don't always get a remedy. Sure. I only get the fine.
>> So this way I can go right in, take care of the dangerous situation and then charge it back to the resident and it becomes a lean against typically their property. So I think there's a fair amount of language in here to go through. So I
what what do we think is the best way um do we want to go through some of some sections today and actually discuss changes or do we want to go all go back and take notes and come back to the next meeting with something?
My suggestion would be and again they're not telling you. My suggestion would be you all go through it, mark it up and get it to me and then I can distribute it during the next agenda so that way you have the same time to digest what everybody else is saying. That would be
my suggestion. But hey, I'm you know not cheap but I'm easy. I can go anyway. Especially looking at it with knowing that it's remedy driven and it's public health and safety is the is the only concern >> not aesthetics right
>> that doesn't have to do with you know we don't like your trees >> and you might want to look at some other cities on what their nuisance abatement look like so you could do some research I mean don't recreate the wheel unless you have to you know maybe they've got some language that works >> this is very repetitious itself over and over and
>> I do think Joe's correct that the site um the site lines and things are very related because those are very much I think health and safety issues. Well, and if we say especially on properties that are you and if if we can talk about
something now a clean cleaning up the language for people to do themselves and b giving code enforcement or public health and safety or the public works the tool to go in there and help these people get them because some of the some of you know who knows some of these trees maybe
I I don't know I don't know what it would entail but if I'm thinking more for the public works to be able to do this on the the roads driveways I think could be handled by the property owners >> facilities
>> won't you but where collecting canal comes to ABCDE or where the any one of the alphabet roads comes on to Okachobee those need to be clear I mean it's already so dangerous I I there and I
think if we can give town tool to to knock knock it down and back and make it easy for people to get in and out. >> Joe, a nuisance abatement. Typically, it's an outside company. Usually contract with a company to do the things because public works is doing the regular stuff. We don't want them to stop automatically. So, that's what you
usually get. >> This diagram on the back is very useful. I think >> it's it's inaccurate, but it's useful. >> Should we let me ask >> you just got to know where your property lines are at. >> It's not even that because a driveway is 10 feet, not 25. So before we go on to
that, I just want to >> Right. So this is what's been handed out as the example. >> Before we go on to that, can we finish on this one and then we'll go to the line of sight. >> So it the committee review, markup, send
>> and I'll send it out to everybody. So I need it at least a week before our next meeting, which is February 9th. >> I think that would be the most productive thing if we all made notes and send them to Karen. hand them to you now. But
>> I went through but I think understanding context now is helpful and then >> I can make some more constructive notes based on that. >> What do you guys think? I >> think that's a good idea. Especially since when I was looking at this, nobody told me we're going. I'm
like, why are we looking at trash? That's why I was asking why are we doing this? >> All right, sounds good. All right, line of sight. >> Yes. Good. Okay. So, um this is the language. So, the diagram is nice
because it it it explains what a line of sight is, right? So, it kind of shows you that triangle, that triangle area, that's your line of sight. Okay? And this is as has been stated, this is uh typically a life health safety. And what it's intended is that when you turn out
of your driveway or you turn from another street, you're not blocked by landscaping or a wall or a fence that you can't see the car coming as you're making, you know, trying to make the turn or come out, whichever way you want to go. >> Especially on our small narrow roads with water,
>> when you're driving a horse trailer, >> right? Right. So line of sight just so you typically all the statistical and all the other data typically comes from FOT from the Florida Department of Transportation. They are typically our transportation expert. Um so when it
comes to these kind of things just kind of keep that in mind as you know Joe brings you bring up a great point. They're talking about Southern Boulevard. They're not talking about EU. Okay. So again a little bit of difference and I'm just just going to clarify which I told Joe I didn't create this language. This has been in
existence for god know how long. So again, this is a great opportunity for us to take a look at it and to see where appropriately it needs to change. As Joe said, there are three types of line of sight. There's the intersection of the driveway and the street.
There's the intersection of a trail and a street. And then there's the intersection of a street and a street. Okay, so as Joe pointed out, this is the diagram of a street and a street. Again, it says example. It should have
clarified street to street. I agree with you. >> Should have three examples >> or have three exampments for >> correct >> different examples. >> And I think it was really meant as illustrative because a lot of people don't know what line of sight means. So I think that's really what the intent
was. So J uh so Joe is correct. It's 10 feet. Okay. >> For a driveway >> for a driveway >> and a trail. >> And a trail. And then what it is is it's 30 in to 8 ft needs to be clear. >> Now why do we say that 30 in here is
that? So we want you to be short, right? So you can see over it. So why does it do the eight feet? Because if I want to put a tree in there, it has to be above eight feet. >> The branches have to >> the branches. >> Okay. >> Okay. So that's why you have a top and a bottom.
>> Right. And I think that language could be made a little more clear in the I know you I didn't read it like that for like three times, but maybe somebody else will because I'm like what? 30 inches, eight feet. Do you guys read it that clear in the >> I had to deal with it. So that's why I
kept my fence like it is with one top rail because you can pull the corner. You can see through my fencing, >> right? When we come to the end of our road, I can see on your side. But now >> and I made a triangle. If you notice how I did the fence, I did it based on this triangle to make sure the fence is in the way there. And I tried to get Adam
to do the same thing on the right side, but he likes the hedges there because that's where his riding ring is at, >> right? >> Oh yeah, that one's that one. That would definitely need addressing. >> And you know, I'm looking at this >> close to this. >> No, he's not. >> No, he's pretty close to it. If you do the measurements, >> no, not from No, because that's the
other thing. It's from where the road and the driveway intersect. Not from where his gate is or where his fence is. It's from where the road and the driveway intersect, >> right? >> So, if he's got a 10-ft swale and then his fence starts, he's probably okay
this way. But this way, he's not. So, within that triangle, it's still not working. >> Do you understand what I'm saying? >> No, that's what I do because I've checked it out. He's very close to it because we measured back 25 feet from his property line and then another 25 this way to give you that triangle and
he's very actually close to it. The problem is those bushes are 8 feet tall. So you really can't see past that. You get a little glimpse down the street, but not enough because some of these cars go 45 miles an hour down the street. >> At 2530, you're okay. >> They're flying and you can't see them. >> That's the scary thing, too, is if
people actually follow the speed limit, then it would not wouldn't be such a big deal. which is when you're edging out of a small road and you're trying to see and there's so and that's you know in Adam's place really it's just in the last year because the the um the
landscaping's filled in so much right so then it just comes out and I didn't do that back >> right that's just but it's grown it's filled in and out anyway but that happens in lots of areas around here >> and I think again for people to comply
like no one wants to cause a car accident because of their bushes No, >> like that's not anyone's intention. And I think for people to comply, the language has to be understandable. And so whatever we can do to make it understandable, then I think that that will
>> have three examples. So if somebody went to their driveway, you are a driveway 10t wide and this is your measurements. >> Yes. But so to have other additional diagrams, right? Like if we're going to have three different um sections, then we should have diagrams for each of
them, right? And they should be really easy to understand like okay if you go out and look at your driveway you hold the thing up like do you know does it work >> right 100%. Right. And it could say C diagram A C diagram B C diagram C. Exactly. But I also think that the
diagram itself needs to be a little clearer personally because >> first of all >> um what are the dark lines and what is the road right because the measurement starts from the where from where the
road and your driveway intersect not from your fence not from the right so again those people who have a 10-ft swale on B- road they're probably mostly okay you know unless their acclus have grown big and then that's encroached
over the 10 ft that needs to be trimmed back. So that I think should be clearer >> right and sorry just terms of the diagram that's there Karen um the shaded part is the sight distance >> no
>> right so that that part is a little confusing right >> understood >> and and could you just go ahead and put the numbers in I had to use Pythagore's theorem you give me two and I got to the square root of a square in
geometry. She could help. >> I got it. But I'm like, oh, because I do corners in the arena, right? I use Pythagoras theorem. Just go. So 25 and 25 is what? 40 44.4 and 10 is 20 24. >> But we just need to I think on the
diagrams just write in the measurements for A, B, and C. >> Yeah. And I it's it's partially there, but I we can just make >> you really don't need to see because if you just mark right here and the point there, that's your line of sight, right? >> Yeah.
>> Look, I'm going to tell you where I think you're wrong. You're absolutely right. Should say A is 25, whatever it is. B is 25 and we're good. >> Right. Right. >> And you have to be have clear line of sight in between that point. >> Yep. >> Those two points. >> And then if we have three diagrams labeled and have the measurements on
there, that's going to be a huge I was saying so on the section you can put here C diagram A, C diagram B. That makes sense. Yep. >> Um, all right. There's that. And I think too that that uh
people should know that that's only if you know, for example, I bought my property and that gate was there, >> right? and it was there for an FPNL easement, >> right? >> It I don't use it. Right. So, one answer
could be that I just put the fence up and I don't have to cut down any tree, any shrubs. >> Right. >> Right. So, people should know that >> it >> just close it off. But with a right with a fence. So, people should know that that's an option if they don't want to, you know, a lot of I know that there's a
lot of gates that probably don't get used, right? Like if it's a because because the vernacular is going to say if there's a gate it equals access and then you have to follow line of sight. So but if you don't use it and you don't >> it's no longer an access point then you
can fence it off. >> Then you can fence it off. Understood. Where was that? The 30 between 30 inches and >> several places. It's me. >> Okay. >> It's in a couple of places. And then I think um
>> So, can we say that a different way to extend it into the area? You can say about >> between 30 in and 8 feet. No obstructions or something like that maybe. I don't know.
>> No visual obstructions because my fence is there but you can see through it. >> Exactly. >> Because you can have a no a split rail fence and a no no climb and it >> chain link all the time. Not chain link but you know chain >> right and chain there's a lot of chain. So that needs to be clear too that that
that between 30 and 8 >> I think at the um in B at the end there. So I follow the language where it goes through you know there can't be any of these things sharper blah blah blah which obstructs crossroability at a
level between 30 in and 8 ft and then above the level of the center of the adjacent intersection. that part is I think >> makes it less clear. >> It does. >> I don't know if there's a way we can tidy up that language. >> Wait, where? I'm sorry. >> So, in in B, section B. So, at the end
of that introduction there, it says, >> uh, you know, no sign, fence, wall, head, blah, blah, blah. Or any other obstruction of any kind, which obstructs cross visibility. >> I'm good. Still at a level between 30 at a level between 30 inches and 8 feet.
But then the last section that says above the level of the center of the adjacent intersection, I think that makes it more confusing >> and I don't even know what that means. >> So what what that's trying to deal with is how do you determine the measurement? What is where do you start? In other
words, if I want to say to make it easy for you, how do I determine 30 inches, right? Because maybe the road is like this. >> So 30 inches here will be like this where 30 inches will be this. So that's why they try to say it's from the center or they make up some standard.
>> Is there a way I mean Karen you read this stuff all the time is could you suggest something that would make it more understandable for people because I think even us sitting here talking about it it's like a little hard to understand and I think the comply getting people to comply is our main goal. So
>> from the center line of whichever road is hotter >> sometimes that's it. You know what? Let me run a plug. Let me bring back I mean let me think about something because I was going to bring back if my best is to bring it back at the next meeting if I can get it done in time. >> Um and I'll try to bring some language.
>> I think the rest of it now I understand but then if we get that a little bit cleaner I think that will help a lot. And then I also think to say um we're saying that that that section B applies
to each type of intersection, right? Not just one. >> Correct. >> Like that applies to all three different types of intersections. And I Right. And I think that that need because it's not just for street to street. >> No. Right. That all of those. So even if
you're coming, you know, it's the end of your driveway, it still has to >> comply with that. And it does say that at the beginning of B, but I think um it's important for it to be really clear. >> Well, and my mailbox happens to be in
that 10 foot and it is taller than 30 in. And here's what's crazy. But I can't change that because post office postmaster general won't let me. >> Oh, isn't that funny? >> It is. That's And I don't know who else would fall under that, but you can't. But we He has a mail 4x4 post. You're
not blocking any real visibility. >> Yeah, but there's two mailboxes there. And so they're they actually are because they're so close to the road. They're You know what I mean? They they they I mean, if I were driving out of there, I'd be like, I can't see around two boxes. Yeah. >> So, what's the solution to that? If you're complying with the post
>> and you have to, they won't deliver your I tried to move the mailboxes and they would >> really they never because it was going to be um it would have to have been like my
mailbox would have hung over the line of my neighbors. Um Oh, in the other direction that that's where it is. It's the other and I have to walk all the way to the other side of my propert. I was saying you have like 330 feet in the front. You can find a spot for it.
>> I'm just saying >> in the middle. Yeah. You have a huge yard in the front with the mailbox in the middle. >> No, because it has to go next to the one that's for the people across the street. It's >> But I'm sure you're not the only person that has
>> I'm sure you can move it over if you wanted. Because then it's on then it's on Don Vegas property >> on the other on the other side 10 ft from the other side. Yeah. >> Well, if I put up a fence instead of a
gate, I could because because they would be in the It's crazy. So anyway, and I'm sure I'm just bringing up mine because I think mine has a lot of um interesting angles to it and I'm sure that there are
going to be plenty of other people who who do as well. >> It would be helpful to be proactive about that. I think we were, you know, ask people to comply. >> We should say like what happens if you're >> fire hydrants and utility poles are permissible in your way. >> Yeah. Why not? Because that's the other
reason can't go in there is there could put a language in that says if a structure is required by a governmental entity >> it is permissible. >> I don't like when you just say mailboxes unless you really want to just restrict it to mailboxes. I don't know what else they could have. I don't know who might
be something but something like that I could recommend >> if it's required or approved by a >> government organization >> right >> okay >> utilities post office >> right like if you have some sort of
utility box up yeah you can't move that or change that then you shouldn't be right because there are those too those big street markers. Well, street markers and traffic control >> and the notification that just went out
to residents about this. It is there a timeline for that or what's the followup on? >> No. Did you I I didn't see it to be honest. January 24th. Okay. We usually give about two or three weeks for somebody to correct it. It's kind of a courtesy notice and then it would be then a notice under the code.
>> Yeah. >> And and and this is you've done this townwide already. >> Well, in the process, look, honestly, probably next year if I could do it all over again, we'll probably send notice out at the end of the year to say, "Hey
guys, you know, time to start, >> you know, looking at your >> shrubbery >> shrubberies kind of thing before I even come out so that way you're put on notice." I mean again my my biggest intention is I'm over I'm always an overcommunicator and I try to get as much as I can out there with social
media website things like that. So we'll try to you know get the information out as much as I can. So again you know because it's a life health safety we didn't want to ignore it but I'll be the first to tell you could we have done it better than what we did. Yeah. And so
next year that would be my intention. Well, I maybe not because maybe now this is the first time anybody's ever. This is the first time ever that somebody. >> Yeah. My gates never I mean and I don't
know anybody else because there's plenty of gates have gone up since then that are >> according to this egregious, right? So >> um uh but at least for if you're going to do something as far as
>> it'll be town >> the health public health. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> So I have five items. One is to look at the language regarding above the level of the center of the adjacent intersection.
Two have section B more clarified that applies to all the items contained in A. Three, add two additional diagrams. Four, have language about if there's a gate with no access that it doesn't apply.
>> And then the fourth one is the structure whether required or approved by the governmental agents entity is permissible. >> I I don't think if there's a gate that there's no access. If there's a gate and they don't want to use it, one of the remedies is that they can put a fence. They can put the fence back. If they
want to keep a gate as access, then they have to comply. Oh, so you want to list it more if you want to do this. This is a remedy. >> Sure. >> Okay. Take the gate out. >> Take the gate out if you want to. Right. >> Well, I So I on my property I have a our main driveway. I'll go home and measure
see what is there. >> But then we have a secondary small gate that once a month our manure removal guy comes and just takes the manure out there, but he doesn't drive in and out. still applies, >> but it's like basically a pedestrian
gate. >> Still applies. >> Okay. Yep. >> And that's why I said there's probably a lot of people who have a secondary gate that they may not use that >> because cars don't go through that. Like no one drives out of that. You can't >> complain about it either. So I would
worry about that's not something that's going to be a hazard to >> right. don't have the safety issue of a of driving out because you don't drive. >> Is it a pedestrian gate or is it a >> It's a pedestrian side. He drives his
like just he uses his little um >> moped. >> No, no, it's like a tiny little machine to like scoop some of the manure, but it's not like a It's not >> Oh, like a a loader skid steer. >> Yeah, exactly. And so >> he's driving on it. >> He's driving on it. Yeah, it's not a
it's not a like a vehicle that drives on the road with a light, you know, with the license plate or anything. Anyway, I'm not sure like how that would comply. I'm just thinking about again how to make >> Well, especially if he's going backwards. It would probably be helpful if he's doing a skid and he's going in and is he going in and out or is he like
>> he just he goes in another spot, drops it off, and then it's like, you know, just a little machine and it drives in that gate, scoops out the manure and then leaves. And so it's not like a street legal >> thing. on a little side street too, isn't it? >> I know. I know. I was just thinking through like the different the different
issues, but that's um >> Yeah. Okay. >> What about the people who have mirrors? >> Oh, for a remedy. It's a remedy. I mean that they're using them to see cars coming.
>> Is that not okay? Not a remedy that is >> Yeah. remedy allowed under this because I'm assuming the reason is that they could always take it down, but I guess you could always go back later. I guess I don't know. I don't know who allowed that, why that was allowed. I'd have to look into it, Karen. I'm not afraid to.
I can ask and see whether that that was an intention to supersede this. I don't know. It's a good question. >> Lots of people here have them. >> A lot of people that I know of who have put them up have done it for safety and convenience of their of their own because >> they tried. They were shot out. Oh,
really? >> Wow. It's exciting. >> You have to be stainless steel and they can't shoot them out. >> Ouch. >> Got a lot of cowboys. >> A lot of kids. >> It used to It used to be the thing where they would come and it hasn't happened
in a long time, but they would drive along the road and just take everybody's mailbox out like a baseball b. We pushed ours further in because we didn't Yeah. >> An Alabama person gets the >> tires on our property. >> Well, yeah, that's the thing. They don't
they're not It says they they don't have to get out. If they get out, it's like one >> No, he drives in. >> You circle them rebar. They don't hit the rebar. We don't do that again. >> That's true. >> They're not allowed to apparent. I asked the lady. I said, "Can we just put it
down the driveway?" She's like, "You're not allowed to go. I'm >> They're not supposed to, but they They do on mine. They do on others. >> I'll just keep moving it like 10 feet every every couple of weeks so they don't notice. >> So they don't notice in by the porch where
>> put it by the pool. They'll be happy. >> Little coke out there every time. >> We good? >> I think so. >> All right. Hang on. >> Remember comments? >> Uh, happy new year. Did we do that? We
>> do that. Yeah. Where are we? Be page >> after our regular agenda. There's the nuisance abdon and then we go to committee member comments. >> Right. >> I know, but I'm just trying to find way back here. >> You just want to check one more time for
public comments. >> No comment. >> No. No. But okay. So, committee member comment. Happy new year. there. >> All right. And then the next meeting is February 9th.
>> So, seven days makes it February 2nd to get me your marked up copies so I can include it in the packet. >> And if you're running late, let me know. Even if we need to delay it a day, just I'd rather you get everybody's comments. >> Wait, February 9th is the next meeting.
>> No, February 9th is when I need your comment. >> Oh, the 9th is the meeting. >> Sorry, the 9th is the meeting, correct? I apologize. >> Second, she wants >> Second. I want the comment your comments >> before the second. >> Thank you. >> Okay, we all good.
>> All good. >> I have a motion to adjurnn. >> Move to adjourn. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> We are adjourned.