To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for its one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, please. >> Yep. >> All right. Chair Siciliano.
>> Wait, what? Oh, chair Sicciliano. >> Oh, >> I thought you said Karen Siciliano. I was like here. Um, Vice Chair Plants >> here. >> Committee member Herity
>> here. >> Committee member Austin. And then seat five is vacant. Town manager Francine Ramalia. >> Community standards director Karen Gardner Young here. And assistant to the town clerk Gabriela Crosdale is present. Okay. Additions, deletions, or
modifications to the agenda. Um, I looked at this online, but I had a lot happen today. Are is this is there any line of sight? Um,
>> is it at the end? Okay, great. We got it. >> Uh, okay. So, do we have any additions, modifications, or anyone? No. >> No. >> All right. So, on to the approval of the minutes. Do we have a motion to approve
or is there any discussion? >> I think the first the first one you looked at last time and you asked to make modifications and assuming Gabby, you made the changes as requested. >> That's what I'm wondering. >> Yeah. Are they >> I don't have my old paper with me.
>> I don't either. Well, I do, but it's >> So that's just to approve the minutes from September 8th. >> Yeah. We have the ones from September 8th and then also the ones from last meeting. They're both on there. The September 8th one I had changed what you had like what you guys had requested and
then the January ones are this is the first time you guys are saying those. >> You can either do it as one motion or two motions. >> Okay. Yeah. Okay. It's I I feel like we discussed and I'm not I'm
not seeing it. If anybody else is that let me know on like a definition sorry on a definition of access because isn't that what where the line of sight
would include language about >> I think we basically defining it I think as if if a access or a lane touched the pavement I think that's how we were kind of like defining it whether whether it was concrete or whether it was, you
know, dirt or whether it was rocks, whatever it is, because then we got into the whole discussion again about if it's a gate, uh, where I put the language in the line of sight that says if it's a gate, you switch out to a fence that it's not applicable, >> right? because I I think that's what I'm looking at because I think that's where
we got into the conversation of access because some people don't even have gates but it so I I was just I don't I just didn't see that language and I wasn't sure that that we did talk about it or that we talked about talking about it >> on in the January 12th if you go to the
um last page of that meeting it has number um four include language about gates that are not in use of possible remedies to apply offense. We brought it up, but we didn't define it yet. So, it's just referencing that we >> Yeah, we mentioned it.
>> Okay. Right. But I get the gates part. I'm think I was because I thought we'd use the word access because a gate doesn't >> there's access not always where there's a gate. >> Right. So I think when we work on the
revised language for that then then I can try to find that better because I agree that it's maybe not so clear. >> Right. Okay. How you going over there? >> I'm good. >> Yeah. I feel fine about the minutes. >> I do too. >> Okay.
>> I just need the motion. >> Yeah. We need a motion. Somebody want to make a motion. >> Motion to accept the minutes. >> Second. All in favor? >> All in favor? >> I I >> I'm assuming it's both the September and the January one >> for me. Yes. Yes.
>> Okay. >> Regular agenda. >> I just put them in. I didn't have a particular order. If you wanted to go over the line of sight first since we already discussed that versus the news and abatement, I leave it up to the committee um what you want to do first.
Um, I did provide, um, like I said, we've gotten comments back from, um, from all the committee members. And then if you go to the back of the packet, I did provide you the updated language >> for the line of sight. >> For the line of sight. So, you'll see
some of the changes to the diagrams that I added. >> These are for us to look at or these are changes that you've Okay. >> Yeah. So this the proposed language to address the committee's concerns. So this is from the last meeting. Whatever you asked me to do some of the stuff I
couldn't and if you want to talk about that first we can do that or whether you want to go to the nuisance debate and I'd leave it up to you Joe how which way you want to do first. you guys just want to roll through it in order or what I mean we >> I I actually um maybe before we dig into
the language for the nuisance abatement um I had written some notes up originally as edits so the notes that are in here um is really thinking about like well taking the current document and just editing it so it's more clear um and then I ended up meeting with
Francine about some other things and I happened to mention that the committee was looking at the nuisance abatement. And after chatting with her a little bit about some of the challenges the town has had with nuisance issues, it it um
made me realize that we I think have to take even a bigger step back and say like really what is that article supposed to cover? And I think that the intention behind it was good, but the way that it was originally written, it's missing some pretty important concepts
and components. So maybe before we start to go through all of the details of each line, maybe we can have a discussion about what we think that that document actually is supposed to accomplish. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I agree because I feel like it it it just pops up sort of as
its own and and it isn't to to me I feel like it should is it is it its own code or is it after a code's been violated or does I mean it doesn't it I do I feel like it needs a lot more definition. Um I think I say it in my
notes as well. >> Right. And so Karen, I know we touched upon this just briefly last time, but could you tell us your understanding of what the procedure is supposed to be? It because I as re as I was thinking about nuisance issues, it it seems like most
things would start as a code violation, >> right? >> That is correct. >> Right. And then so can you just maybe walk us through currently what happens like if something is in code violation but then becomes um a real public health or safety threat
and could then be defined as nuisance. >> What happens like what actually logistically happens with a town? >> So let me if it's okay I'll start up with a regular code case and then we could distinguish between the two. Okay. So again, a a code case basically is any
violation of the code. Okay? And that could be the building code, could be a fire code, could be the zoning code, uh could be an ordinance, could be a resolution, anything that's been adopted that is something that we are regulatory, what we regulate. >> And I just have a quick question. In a
code violation, um you are we're allow you can be violated on something that's not been codified or is there a time limit that passes because some of these weren't haven't been codified yet. >> Well, okay, let's go under a definition
of codification. Okay. Right. >> So, you can have codification typically means it's placed in the code, >> right? >> Okay. So, it means it's an adopted ordinance typically. So it means it is already guidance that the council has already adopted. It just not has not
been placed into the code yet. Okay. So you can still enforce it. You enforce it under the ordinance number. You don't force it under the code because it's not in the code yet. >> So is it more difficult for a resident than to find out how to comply since
it's not in the code? It's it's a separate ordinance. I I think the answer to that is I'm you know you me a straight shooter. I think it's yes and it's no. Okay. Because when the notice when you're sent a notice, you're given an opportunity to correct
and we provide you the information of what section you were in violation of. So if it wasn't code section 3-25, we would say it's ordinance number 2026-2. So you will always know the instrument
that you're being cited under. The issue I think why I say it is a little harder is because trying to find that ordinance might be more difficult. Okay, >> that is tricky. >> So um you know typically the delay is about 3 months maybe four months before
it gets into the code. Um and what I've done in the past and really guys you know I'm trying to juggle so many things right now. Typically what I try to do is do like a page of ordinances that have not been codified yet. So that way you always have the ability to go to that
page even if it's not in the code and you can say oh here's ordinance 20612 because we put it there. So I think again I've got to start thinking about trying to get that information out. So it is a little harder because you have to take that one extra step but it's usually just like you'd have to go to
the code anyway. Okay. Um so that's why I said yes and no. Um, but it doesn't preclude you from enforcing it just because it's not in the code. It just makes it a little bit a little bit funky. I'll use that technical term if you don't mind um to to kind of enforce
it. So, in in the code violation, typically you have to give reasonable time period to correct the violation. And we don't generally tell you because there might be multiple options you may have. I mean, take an example. Maybe you have an illegal barn. Maybe it's to get
a permit. Maybe it's to destroy it. Maybe it's to make it stro, you know, smaller. So, there could be any number of ways on how to correct it. So, we can't always tell you how to correct it because it's your option on how you accomplish that. But typically, you're given now code cases are only heard once
a month. Should say we're heard twice a month now, but depending on the load, but typically we're not going to put you into the next meeting. We're going to put you into the following month. >> You mean magistrate? >> To the special magistrate. That's correct. So, what happens is we we we
post notice. As you come in, you'll see a board that posts notice. We send certified regular mail and then we post it on site. So, there's three ways of you to get notice that there's a a code violation that has occurred. And again, what it
says is if you don't comp comply, if you don't remedy it by this date, we're going to take you to the special magistrate. So, the fact that you get notice doesn't mean you get fined right away, >> right? No. >> Okay. Right. So, it just means we're telling you there's a problem. Call us,
correct it, let us know you corrected it, and then we don't may not have to go to the hearing. We may have to go to the hearing. We don't know. And try to work it out. So, we have to go to a reasonable time period. So, things that are not a life health safety, you don't mind giving somebody 60 days to correct,
right? Because it's not a life health safety issue. And we do want to give them the option, try to give a reasonable time period to get something off of the property. But there are circumstances in which you don't want to give 20 days, 30 days in order to go do it
because it's a life health safety issue and and I just again >> but wait so now that's kind of the situation that so life health safety seems like it you would almost be able to just
like is that a co it's a code violation but it stands on its own so that you're You're changing the timeline because it's imminent is what you're saying. And >> that's the difference between the nuisance abatement and a code case. It
is the impact that the violation has. And in and so in some cases there could be a code violation to begin and then it doesn't get resolved or people don't comply and then it builds into something that becomes a life health safety issue.
So in that case let's say that happened >> and I think we probably could all think of examples of things that have happened in town that >> could fall under that. >> What happens then? So, if they're already in code violation, >> um, but now the town identifies an issue
that is really a public health or safety issue, >> what is what's the current procedure? um a a little bit from chatting with um with the town manager, I had the impression that the language in the current nuisance abatement
um document doesn't really allow for a a good procedure for the town to actually take action if there's like a real >> um safety issue. Is that >> it? The nuisance abatement requires 20
days notice, >> right? So, I can't I have to can't do anything for 20 days. And I'll give you an example because usually that helps a lot. It may not again may not apply here, but it kind of gives you a visual. Swimming pool not being maintained. Okay. So, at the beginning, it might be
just a code case because maybe they had chlorine in it, but they're just not maintaining it. We're concerned that a kid could fall in it. And again, not we have larger lots. I'm just using it as an example. But three months later, without shocking it, it may now be green and it may have mosquitoes and it may,
you know, encourage, I don't know, crocodiles or whatever to come. And, you know, the question then is, do we want to wait 20 days before we go in in order to correct that? I'm just using that as an example. Okay, this the nuisance abatement is not used on a regular
basis. Okay, I'm going to tell you it's a it's an extreme usage, but it's needed in case there is an instance and I think the the prime example that I gave before was you have an empty house, okay, and you hurricanes coming, okay,
it's not secure, you know, do I want to have their roof come off and go to damage somebody else's house? That's a life health safety issue, right? And so maybe I need to get on property in order to correct that violation and 20 days
the hurricane could be here and gone already and I didn't have the option to go in and correct it because I had to give the notice. Again, just as an example. So nuisance abatements are generally not used unless it is an extreme situation where we need to because again what it requires is for us
to go on which is your point Jill. I don't have public works guys. They're working all day. I don't have time for them to go out and, you know, border up someone's house. So, usually what you do is you hire an outside contractor who you can call up and say, "Go go over that house and take care of it." But I
have to have permission to go in and I can't do that until I do the nuisance abatement. But it still seems like to me, Karen, that a code violation, nuisance abatement, and public an eminent health safety, you know, are three different things. It seems like to
me that a nuisance abatement, not because it doesn't necessarily mean it's life, it's health and safety, that that particular um title could stand on its own. Whereas nuisance abatement could be fall under
code violation and be given the amount of time, right? Like so that's how it seems to I mean, you're not going to go on anyway, right? So, so
it seems like the nuisance abatement would be less egregious than health and public health and safety. It could could it turn into that? Sure. But there are also public health and
safety that are today you drive past it. So to me those are two separate things. >> I think just like I tried to read a little bit more at like after I went through this language and I tried to learn a little bit more and I think the intention behind the nuisance abatement
is to just address the most egregious things and I don't think that the language >> unless it's welldefined I don't find it acceptable and I mean very well defined because as she said a green pool can bring us on your property supposedly. So
this is like giving the town carb blonde to do what they want when they feel like it as whoever's in charge at the time decides what they decide is a health and safety violation where as I've looked at other communities they don't have this
unless there is a fire and abandoned property that's falling down or somebody with a gun there is no going on somebody's property without a warrant. I I think that a 100% everyone agrees that this document has to be have way better definitions. Absolutely. I don't think
anyone disagrees with that. I think that >> maybe that document should start with if it's an abandoned property, if nobody lives there because I think if somebody lives there, there should be time given to them regardless of the circumstances because what is a human safety violation
to one person is not to another. It's a way of life sometimes. Listen, I and I know people will disagree, but we came out here to kind of live our lives and and not have six inch grass and uh perfectly trimmed trees and >> Sure. No, I I agree with that. And I
think that the whole problem with the document currently and no one here wrote this document, so I don't think there's anyone defending the way that it is. I think that it hasn't really my understanding is it hasn't really been examined in a long time and that there are a lot of issues with it. And so for
us it's an opportunity to discuss what like how could we make this more useful. I think the understand Karen's examples. What one of the other ones I thought of is that on our street we had someone with um with eight campers and no
appropriate hookup and they weren't having them pumped out. So they're actually dumping the raw sewage onto the ground. that's immediate, >> which is seems like a very a very time-sensitive issue. And so when that problem was identified, I think that
they that the property owner was in code violation for a long time and they're still dealing with that. But if if someone's dumping open sewage onto the ground, I think there should be some other solution to holding that person
accountable and cleaning that up other than a code violation process that could take two years to play out. So, I'm not saying I have the answer of exactly what the process should be, but for something like that, I would love to see >> Well, that's why I said it needs to be
extremely well defined. You can't just leave it open that if we think it's a health and safety violation that >> definitely agree because one of my points was how is it identified? It kind of you know they they're not going on your property to identify problems. That's not what we're trying to
>> a neighbor identifies a problem and says oh my gosh dumping sewage onto the ground. It's going in the canal. like, oh my gosh, like that really happened on our street. And I, so I'm not saying I know what the answer, what the solution is, but I think that those sort of um
problems, which should be dramatic ones. I don't think that the the town staff should be able to just, >> you know, show up. I don't think that's the intention. >> We're here to see what's wrong. >> It may not be the intention, but it gives them the right to do it if you leave it there. >> I think we all agree that that shouldn't be what the document says. So the
question is, you know, what do we do with the current document and how do we think constructively as a committee about well, you know, how can we rethink this because I think the council's open that to that and the staff is very in support of that because right now the
staff can't they don't really have other options besides the the code violation procedure. >> And I think Joe, your point is well taken. There is an overlap of the nuisance abatement and the code enforcement, right? The only difference between the two is the nuisant abatement
allows us to go onto the property and correct the violation. The code case only institutes a fine. >> Right? >> You get me? So you can have the same violations in both of these different remedies. That's the difference.
>> So but I see it differently in that it it becomes a nuisance. it's a violation and then you continue to let it go and now it becomes a nuisance or it's a do you see what I mean? Like I feel like if it's a nuisance, you should
be able to if if RVs or you know leaking sewage that that shouldn't have to start as a code violation and then work its way up to a nuisance. >> They're not they're not they're independent, >> but they either appear that way. You can
do one or the other depending on the circumstances. Now, I think you're right, Karen. I absolutely agree with you. The way that this worded is clearly not based for rural communities. This is language that was taken out. Tall grass doesn't make sense here. Okay? I mean,
yeah, you could get rats in them. Don't misunderstand me. But again, I think what you need to do is to define what are the parameters, if any, that you feel are appropriate to utilize the nuisance of fate because we don't have
to touch the code enforcement because the code enforcement is just the regulations. This is a more extreme process. We're now going onto somebody's property to remedy it, >> right? So, we need to go back to the definition of >> And why wouldn't we call like the EPA?
>> Exactly. >> I don't know if OSHA does it. Um, the county health department. There's other departments that regulate this stuff. Why wouldn't we call them for like a raw sewage leak? >> No, I guess. So, what's we would have to help define what the procedure is, right? So, like who would identify
>> what's going on? >> So, who would identify it? >> That's them. That's not us putting it into our code that allows somebody here to go on somebody's property. >> No, I I think I don't think any of us are defending like, oh, we should make it just open for the town staff to go on
people's properties. But I think that I don't I don't think anybody >> But that's the way it's written. >> So that's that's why we're here is to look at that. And I think include like the town staff I've talked to also think it's written really badly. But I think um so if we were going to bring in an
outside department, the Florida EPA or whoever it is, what would be we'd have to think about um the suggested procedure for that, right? Because we don't want we don't want like somebody me calling the Florida EPA about my neighbor. >> Why not? And they're going to say talk to your town.
>> Yeah. I mean I Well, >> how do you know? Because >> have we tried? >> Yeah. I think I so I think we have to have some sort of parameters for the for the town, right? I I mean that would be like some something written about things that
are outside of the code. >> Has this town called the EPA or anybody else? The health department >> all the time. Health, especially the RV situation. >> The EPA. >> Oh, yeah. >> And what do they say? >> Well, it depends. Sometimes they're very responsive. Sometimes they're not.
>> What is their response though? Well, sometimes the responses will get out there, which could be month and a half later because they're going to go based on their staff and based on their workload. So, I have no control over what they do, right? I have only control
over what the town does. I'm not saying that we don't do it. I mean, we had the other day we called the county, go help me with signage. I mean, it's in their rightway. >> We do call. >> I think there is some language in here. When I was reading through it, I said,
well, you to myself, I was like, well, wouldn't that be an issue for the sheriff's department, for example? Like, I don't think uh town staff needs to be making decisions about a criminal act, potential criminal activity, illegal activity. Somebody needs to call a sheriff's office, >> right?
>> I tried finding other towns or cities that have this in their language, and I I can't find it. Do you know of a town that does it? >> Every town has a nuisance abatement, but it's >> where they can go on somebody's property. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah. I used it in North Palm Beach. I
actually went on somebody's property. I I tried looking for it. I could not find um and people that I know that are in other towns um that are on council and such. They say that's a Fourth Amendment violation.
Like I said, you're not you don't use it unless you have to, you know, so it's >> illegal search and seizure, >> right? But it's really designed to be help due process. I don't think anyone's trying to suggest that we skip due
process, but more I think we can there are some examples of um things that need an accelerated process for for public health and safety issues and it should be a >> a short list. It shouldn't be like you know all sorts of different
possibilities. >> Yes, an extremely short list. Um, right. And so that's I think what we need to think about like how do we want to define that? And >> well maybe you can pull up three or four towns that have it in their writing and
show it to us what their language is because I did try to find something and I you couldn't find it. >> Happy to pull for you. >> Appreciate that. >> Yeah, no problem. >> Yeah. And reading through the current language that defines things, I I
thought that there was a lot related to vegetation that does not need to be in there for our community like it is a rural community. So having longer grass or >> and we like our wildlife. >> Yeah. You know, there's a place where it said like something couldn't be over 14
feet like why that's I like big trees and you know so I think those are the ones in the telephone lines. >> Yes. pretty sure those are the only and it was because we all had the electric and the telephone and all that >> and that's never going to be like a sudden emergency situation, right? And
so if someone's treating >> the cabbage pumps catch on fire when they >> No, no, of course there can be a situation they do catch on fire, >> but it's um to me that wouldn't probably end up being a nuisance issue. would be just a code violation like if someone is letting their their tree branches start
to get close to something like the lines then >> usually FPNL will come out >> right so that to me that's probably not I would not be inclined to put that in as a a nuisance abatement like it will probably get addressed before that or should get addressed before that
>> but to think about okay what are some egregious things that have happened in the past or we could anticipate happening that we would want to have some other way to manage beyond, you know, besides through the code process,
but for sure not trying to structure something where a town staff is suggested or encouraged to go on people's properties to try to deal with issues. Um, so that's I think it's like we have to
really go back to the definition part of this article. >> I'm with you, Danielle. I think you know again we could the processes at the end you know how you get that stuff I think we can deal with later but I think you almost throw out most of what's in the front and just define what your you know
what is imminent health >> life safety maybe a definition of that will help >> right I mean they just even the fact that like breeding ground for mosquitoes isn't there I mean we are a town filled with canals y >> I mean like if somebody had the pond on their property we can't say you know like there's a lot of language in there
that I think really doesn't um apply to our community, but that there are other situations that could be public health and safety issues that are currently not in here. I think a lot about manure. >> I think the big truck on FO with all the culverts sitting there is a huge public
safety hazard, especially for teens that might get in >> digger move today. Amazing. What about the culverts? >> Oh, they're the same. >> There you go. And yet the town leaves them there. And that's a huge safety violation in my eyes for children and
teenagers. >> The town those aren't that's not town equipment, right? I'm sure >> uh no f on. I'm sure I don't think the town owns that equipment. I >> I'm not saying they own it. I'm saying they're allowing it. It's been there for months. >> So long. I know.
Um, so, so is that maybe what we want to do as a next step is have Aaron pull some language from other towns? I I guess no. Does anyone here know where this language came from to begin with? We don't >> probably the county the county
>> when the town was incorporated, it would they somebody just pulled language and put it in there. So, that's and I think it hasn't been touched since then. >> Oh, definitely not. Right. >> The last time it was touched was 2018. And I I think that was the addition of
the line of sight >> it not not >> but I think that's I think that's a great idea. I mean I'll be more than happy. I'll try to look for towns that are more uh similar to us. Um don't know how successful but I mean I could try to pull a couple people but I'll pull a
bunch out and then you guys take a look at it. >> But I do believe this is overboard for what we would use. So I'm agree with >> Right. Some of the language almost makes me think of like if you were >> if you were in the city and you had an abandoned lot, right? And like a lot of that language reminds me of what a city
might consider a problem, but our town would not. >> Right. Okay. Sound good, guys? I'll get you a couple. See what I can find out did in the packet. >> Karen, are there any big other items that you think um should be covered in nuisance abatement that aren't
currently? Um the big one that you brought up, but obviously manure is a big one. Um I actually >> I knew we were gonna get there. >> I'm just, you know, again, I'm just throwing out just my experience, a couple of things that be covers have been another big issue. Um you know, um
the RVs, these are all the big ones that kind of come to mind on on but some of them may not arise. You know, like I said, just because you have eight RVs instead of two doesn't in my mind, but if they are leaking, that's a whole another story, right? So, um, you know,
>> it's hard sometimes to list everything. I think here it's better because it will and then it's a living document. I always tell them codes are always living documents, right? You you see how it applies and then you >> modify it again to see how it really works. Sure. Do it that way. >> Yeah. I was just curious if there are
any big things like as a staff person of the town like oh my gosh like this is a big thing that we have to deal with and it's not getting addressed in another way. So the big one for us again is the manure, but I'll go back to Karen. You know, we invited, you know, uh Florida Department of Environmental Protection,
we invited the the county. So it does require some coordination between the different entities to try to get a resolution of of a problem. >> Right. And then and to me that is also related to to water like to runoff issues and water management in the town.
>> Okay. So I'm going to um in looking at this it it starts nuisance abatement in general purpose and intent and definitions and then the definitions say actual cost
compatibility you know it doesn't have any there is not one definition on there about the a nuisance right like >> if you well yeah >> until it goes to junk right >> is it just because it's in >> the very Okay. Can I just finish really quickly? Thank you. So
>> Joe, what page you on? >> Oh, I'm actually I've gone back to my original one because there's too many things in here. >> Nine. >> Okay. >> On the original one. >> Okay. >> So, I I I kind of feel like right in
here might be where we define what the nuisance abatement is. Right. This is a tool for the town to identify public health and safety issues that can be, you know, life-threatening or something in there. And and not only
that, but a sort of a I was going to say a flowchart because it wasn't clear until just a minute ago that you can you can code this, but then you can nuisance abate it, but then you can also file it as imminent health. And those are three
different ways avenues to go in at it. And I think some sort of a definition in here of those three separate tools should be should be printed in here so that people who want to comply can follow along. And
not only that, for you guys to know. >> Gotcha. >> Well, I think the ironic part is that this first section called purpose and intent, I think is supposed to be defining what nuisance abatement is. It never says that's what it's defining, but this
sort of first list in that first section I think is is trying to give a definition. And then the actual definition section I >> talks about a whole bunch of other terms, but ne nowhere in the document does it says does it define what a nuisance
>> is. So I I I think it has to be right at the beginning. >> And then the declaration of nuisance and menace um Is that the actual Is that the actual violation? Sorry. The the declaration section 33. That's So I'm going to be on
page 10 of the original one. >> Is is that the violation? The notice >> six. Okay. Declaration. Gotcha. >> Uh what? >> So >> what is that? Okay. That's the
>> this is defining You're right. This is the definition of in this code section. That's the definition of of nuisance. >> Tricky. >> And it's saying why it's saying why those are nuisances, right? Like that.
It says declaration of nuisance and menace. And it says um all these things blah blah blah are nuisance and menences for the following reasons. Mhm. >> So why don't maybe this is where we jump in and start and and just and and think
of things that would definitely be again I still can't get my I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around public health and safety something imminent versus your trees hanging over the fence, right? like I have a problem
with where to where to line that up for someone to look at if I get viol if I get a violation how do I fix it right like how do how does your how do your officers identify it
where it's got a ball in in importance right like >> right right it doesn't yeah you're right it doesn't say that and I think Danielle's u point is if If you go to that 30-3 that >> it defines, okay, it says the following
are declared to be nuisances and it's the top part. So in this code, they're defining the accumulation of trash, junk, debris, living and non-living plant material upon property, that's defined as a nuisance. The excessive growth of grass, weeds, brush, branches,
and other overgrowth is a nuisance. the keeping a fill in an unsafe and unsanitary manner that's a nuisance and the permitting vegetation to grow over public roadways are a nuisance and then the next section def says why it's a nuisance
>> well the next right >> the go to imminent public health >> so this is I think important as you say Joe to define because like we said maybe excessive growth of grass weeds and brush is not a nuisance for us so we
shouldn't have it in here, but maybe the accumulation of >> manure is and that's not even defined in here, >> right? So, I think just kind of took the general and again, not to defend, but I'm always here to be the devil's
advocate for you to continue the conversation. >> Um, you know, usually these things you try to be broad because you can't account for every situation that happens. And when the situation happens and you don't have the tool, then it's like, what do I do? You know, so
sometimes they try to be broad, which doesn't work in this town. This town, we need to be specific. So everybody knows what the rules are. We'll all play by the rules. So I think you need to define what's the rules, right? What are we defining as nuisance? And then how are
we determining that is nuisance? In other words, is it that the fire's been going? And I'm just an example. Fire's been going for 12 hours. Maybe for an hour it's not a nuisance. Maybe for 12 it is. I don't know. Does that make sense? You know what I'm saying? So, we have to do the broad
category and then figure out how we're defining that if you feel that's necessary. I >> I almost feel that we need to start with new language. The language that's here is so troubling that I think we could argue for hours about edits to this
where >> that's why I was trying to look up at home u other towns and I was uh recommended by a couple council members at other other towns that they don't go on people's property without permission that they just don't have that it's part
of their code and they get noticed and due process unless unless Yes, there's a fire or a house falling down or somebody with a gun. I mean, there there's like extreme circumstances and then they call the sheriff. Um, that's what I was
advised. So, I think it would be very helpful maybe if this language came from the county to begin with. That's where we're thinking. Then maybe if Karen can pull some language from other communities that have something similar, but it have to be a community that's more rural,
right? Um, I think language from, you know, downtown West Palm Beach is not going to be useful to us, but maybe a place like Jupiter Farms would be or I'm not saying that's exactly the right example, but another community that has a more set up.
>> Maybe maybe I don't know. >> What were you thinking? >> Maybe Davey or Southwest Ranches. >> I think Southwest Ranches is about the same size as us. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But I think that I I think that we
all agree and from talking to some of the town staff is agreement too that um the point of this is not to be interfering with residents personal activities but rather to have some sort of tool to deal with extreme situations.
>> Correct. Right. Should should we talk about the um the line of sight? Should we talk about the line of sight? Let's go to line of sight. >> Didn't the count town count town county town council talk about this? >> Yeah. >> Line of sight. Yeah. >> Well, so
>> I think um Karen, the one place where you know like like it's okay with you if FPL goes on your property and cuts down a tree, right? >> No, >> but you have to let them >> if they ask and I'm okay with it. But I mean, if it's growing into a I don't
mean just some random tree in your yard. I'm talking about one that's growing into a line of some kind. They don't have to ask your permission, do they? >> Yes, they do. It's my property. >> But they have an easement that they can go on. >> But does it mean they can go on it when they feel like it? They still have to ask to come on my property.
>> Okay. So, but you would let them cut down a tree or no. >> If it was interfering with their electric, yes. >> Okay. So my think on this just follow me through with the line of sight is that
and you correct me if I'm wrong because where it says we're going to go on your property I you know this is because it's now a public health and safety issue because the the intersections are dangerous does
you have to ask permission to trim the trees back to the line of sight when we decide on what that's supposed to be. um town council, us giving our ideas. Uh and and then you can go in and trim it to where
or whoever you contract, not right >> you being the town, not >> right >> you. >> Right. Is that kind of the >> We could if if we define it as a nuisance abatement. >> It is currently now it's just a code issue. >> No. >> Correct.
Well, >> it is. It's all you got. All we sent out were letters saying it's a code violation. We didn't say we're coming on anybody's property. >> Okay. But it's how it was coded. It was like you have what was it?
I think you gave uh 12 calendar days to rectify. Yes. >> So, it kind of seemed like it was imminent. you not the regular 20 or even and it wasn't even an actual uh >> it was a courtesy notice. It was a
courtesy notice. Wasn't even actually >> Where did the 12 days come from? >> I think they just tried to figure out what they think. Again, it all goes back to what's reasonable time period and based on the impact. I mean, you don't want to leave. If it's preventing somebody from seeing a car, you could get an accident. You don't want to wait
40 days to get it taken care of. So, they have to figure out what is a reasonable time period that you can get it corrected so that we don't have the problem that we, you know, in place. This and this is one situation where I think it should be a nuisance. If it's
safety at intersections and we all know there is nobody in town that's doing the speed limit, right? Not one place I people are pass I got passed on Okachobee in the grass. Somebody went to around me to the right. It Yeah. So
safety on our streets is to me that's very important and pulling up to a stop sign and not having to be like is is crazy important. So, I'm just saying this is something that I feel like should sort of stand on its
own. I don't I don't I don't mind, you know, cutting my trees at all, but I think everybody and I don't think anybody would, but I feel like it should be more uniform, right? So, I don't know. It wasn't I'm I'm a little
I'm sorry. I'm out of sorts. Um because it wasn't really a code violation just right. This is one that's not codified. This is an ordinance. It's not it's not in >> 30-50
>> for the umm line of sight is but the them it's not signed. It's not when you pull it up you'll see >> what is the width of the driveway in the picture that you're going by. here. I don't didn't have a particular width
because >> well because that matters because like some driveways are one width on one part and then they go wider as they go out. Um so not most driveways aren't a straight line like you see in the picture. I'm just curious which how you're measuring by.
>> Well, you see there's an apron, right? See the apron? The apron's in the in the triangle. I don't know what that is even. >> No, what I'm saying is I don't know what that's do. What is that doing? I know what you're talking about. >> This is so this is your driveway because your driveway, correct? Doesn't
>> Well, what if some people's driveways go like this, >> right? So then then it would start like here. I mean, I'm just using an example. I can't take every situation otherwise my whole code will be every diagram that you can think of. But I mean obviously the intention is to start a d is
dialogue. That's the intention, >> right? And then to talk with the >> I just know a lot of driveways including ours is wider in the front than it is in the back because of trailers going in and out. >> That's why I think they put like this. This is you know >> it's a very tiny apron for our community. Very tiny.
>> Open up to No, I still wanted to know how wide the driveway is. That matters. It won't matter the width if you just take two triangles from the from the point of the driveway from the point of the pavement of the road down the side of the driveway. No matter what that
measurement is, it's going to be the same for >> everybody. Yes, it will. Yes, it will. And because >> how how would that be? Look, because you but if this came here, this tri this triangle is going to be all the way over here, >> right? But you're going to take Sorry. You're going to take the driveway back
here, right? And then no matter what this does, it it doesn't matter if you're where you start this, right? Like this can come out like this or come out like this. The triangle it's going to start here and it's going to go to the straight line of the driveway, right? Because otherwise you move over here.
>> Now it's 25 ft that this is the spot that they can't see. >> That's what I wanted to know. How wide this driveway was because that tells you where the triangle starts. >> It's it's Yeah, I think it starts That's what I was saying. It's I think it's
centered they count a road is eight a lane is 8 ft >> usually 12 12 feet is usually one car and 24 is usually 10 cars >> so your driveway you get 10 or 12 whatever I mean like >> right now I'm just curious let me throw something out
>> 100% should we be governing driveways you want to just regulate the intersections >> because the driveway people going in and out of the driveway that's their for that's an issue for them versus No, that's not always true. But I
don't I don't I have no I I I watch people with the big kooias, you know, >> come out of the big wide driveways and they have to put their nose into oncoming traffic to ste see even with these big beautiful driveways, put their
nose into oncoming traffic to see left or right. I think that's dangerous. just given the fact that people are not doing 25 miles an hour. But, you know, if I'm I'm going to agree with you if if it's just no
one's asking them to take their >> bushes down, which is tremendous >> to be. So, we just are trying to define something so that there is a safe line of sight for people going out making turns.
>> What do you think? You don't want to know what I think cuz I I want to feel grandfathered in because when we put our things up, we were told where we could put it by the uh water department. Um Cleat was in charge at the time. >> When you put your >> And now it's supposedly in that line of
sight problem. >> What is >> our bushes, our fence, everything? >> Your bush. So, but >> ours and you can't cut them down. They're either there or they're not. >> To the end of your driveway. Yes. And I I do trim them, but yeah, we're one of
those people that slowly go out slowly and hope people are doing 25 miles an hour, 30 if they have to. >> But yeah, people zoo by. I just had somebody ran into my fence. Um, what day was it last week? Someone called me and said, "Hey, your cow's out." >> Oh no.
>> Someone ran into my fence, took out the poles I have along the roadway. The whole fence is out and the cow is on the street. >> Oh my god. So, I mean, this is not the first time. It's probably the fourth or fifth time over the last few years, but um it happens and and I wrote a thing on
Facebook because I'd like to at least know that my cows could get out. >> Even if it was just an apology and they took off, >> right? But so, does your do your do your trees go >> they took them all down in that spot and they're down there now? I mean, that's why we have
>> No, I mean for your driveway for your access point, right? Do they go all the way to the edge of the pavement? >> No. >> How? >> No. But they kept making the street wider and wider and that's part of the problem. The street used to be much more narrow there
>> and so you could come out because all that dirt was ours and it still is, but now panels also put their lines there. They change where their lines are. It used to be in our back of the house. So, how far back do your like from the p like from the edge of the pavement?
Let's say how far back does your do your tree does your tree line start? I >> I I don't know. Maybe five to eight ft >> and and it's Koopus or it's a >> oras oras. >> Yeah. >> But we also have the trail on the other side that they opened up that was never
there. So then we have a ras going up to the trail on Ero that was not there before. So, trail for horses. >> Well, I assume it's trail for cars, too, because we have cars driving down there
>> occasionally. >> We have people fishing there all the time, opening up the gate and driving in. >> Yes. Okay. Well, I suppose if I were on a horseback, I'd want to see a car coming.
Just saying, >> right? >> Well, it's a three-way stop. I mean, it it's not like a blowth through. They do have to stop there. >> Uh Uhhuh. It's a three-way stop. It's an intersection. Where's the driveway? Your driveway is >> No, I'm talking about at the corner of
our house where the trail is. Yes. >> Oh, I see. Okay. I was like, wait, what? >> No, we have two line of sights to worry about. >> Okay. >> Right. I think it just needs to be uniform for sure. Maybe and I think a driveway could be smaller a smaller smaller triangle and but intersection
should be >> right which is how it's written right now that it's the 10 foot. >> Yes, they do have it 25 and 25 for the other. >> And where do those measurements come from? Are those just >> that was that was random. >> It's pretty common. I took a look at it and then and it seems that sometimes
you'll see 15 instead of 10. >> Um sometimes you see 30 instead of 25. Most of the times it comes from F dot. >> But that's the problem because we were 25 from the road and now with the trail we're not. So is that our fault?
>> Right. No, but the question is what happened? What should happen now? Um I'm not sure I have the answer to that. >> Well, first of all, we need to find a place that works for measuring. >> Well, because I'm not going to be the only one. Everybody who all a sudden
found themselves on the side of a trail >> has that line of sight problem now. >> Everybody >> that and it's mostly just the east east side of the alphabet >> roads, right, >> that were that are going to be affected for the most part. >> Well, not just the east side because all
the people who live along that canal >> that have bushes >> east side for letter roads. >> Oh, yeah. I thought you meant just >> but yeah >> everyone along those canals that have bushes growing some have a some have big bushes and trees you can't see around >> so the first thing is
>> before you hit the the trail you could see to the road you just can't see >> so right to me that would be if you have to come out and cross the canal right that's the first time you're going to be connecting with like vehicle traffic but
I are we saying that we also need to have that line of sight August. >> So now everybody along P road, F road, C road, B road, everybody that has that canal there and has to come out across their covert, >> they don't have that line of sight if they have bushes up.
>> Because of the trail, the addition of >> which was not there before they planted. >> Right. Right. >> So do you see what I'm saying? >> I do. I do. And I think that >> and you thought commercial signs was going to harm a lot of people. This is a
much bigger view, I think, >> cuz this is residents, not people with commercial money. >> This is just residential. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. But we're not asking them to rip trees out. >> Yeah, you are. >> We're asking them to comply. Well, to
comply with the line of sight. Now, the trail is right along the edge of the driveway. There is the thing. >> I can see in my head. I'm sorry. I'm lost on where where >> it's like if people um so if you have a trail >> look
this is E road E- road right here this is the road this is the trail right next to it this is the trail okay >> and the canal and you drew the canal >> and this is people coming out >> where's the canal >> oh in between right there
the trail is right here >> so that's a trail against people's properties And then you have the canal and then you have the road. They used to be in compliance, but once that trail went in, cuz this used to be very native trees,
all kinds of animals lived here. So, they were in compliance because their bushes and everything were planted along here, >> right? And it's a wall of of vegetation there. >> Yeah. It used to be vegetation all over the place. So you would come out and then you'd be on the road here after you
cross the canal cuz they have a covert in there. So now when they come out though the trail for the horses, RV, uh, whatever drives along here. I know I'm making a mess. >> Scribble. >> It's a scribble, >> right? But the point was that before the trail was there, the line of sight
wasn't an issue because you weren't crossing anything and doing crossing the trail until you got >> and now >> where's the intersection? which give me an intersection. >> This is like driveway to street and trail >> road. Okay, here's the I'll make waves.
This is the canal. >> Okay. >> Now, here is the new horse trail that was never a horse trail years ago. >> Horse. I'll call it a horse trail, but it's a multi-use trail. >> Right. >> There are houses along here on 5, 10,
20, 30 acre tracks. >> Their driveways come out this way. Mhm. >> They crossed the horse trail. It used to not be a horse trail. So their bushes are all here. So now they don't have a line of sight with the horse trail. >> Mhm.
>> They only have a line of sight with the road. >> I'm going to pull up a Google Earth image because I think that will be really helpful. >> Don't we have a map? >> Wait, do you know we have internet access? Now I've got Now I see what you're saying. >> Thank you. >> So there's like
10 And this is >> trees. >> These are trees, bushes, everything are okay. >> No, it's not okay. Not in the trees are okay as long as the branches are higher than >> But the trunks are this big and they're in the line of sight,
>> right? So they're if we look at the map now, look the way it is. Here's the trail. Here's the canal. Here's erodess. Here's a driveway coming out. And look, there's just a whole line of shrubbery right here. So now this driveway doesn't
have line of sight for this trail because the the ve the shrubs go right up to the edge. So obviously that was not the intention of putting the trail there and being like oh everyone's now violating the code but it does technically. So the question is what do
we do to deal with >> because it's not a small part of town it's a huge part of town. >> So I'm on E guys where I'm on >> Oh you got it. >> Yeah. I just went up to >> this is Ian collecting canal. I just went north from there to the first big driveway. >> The first big drive. There we go.
>> Yeah. So, we're looking at So, she's got it up on the big map right there. So, now So, when there was no trail, then the driveway line of sight was just when it connected with E-Road and there was no issue because you went over the the canal
>> and now the line of sight is a problem technically because of all the bushes that go right along. Okay. So, I feel like when we talk about the remedies for something like that, okay, this is not a vehicle crossing. I mean, this is
someone coming out of their driveway. This is not an e- like going to smack a horse. I mean, I guess someone could come flying out of their driveway, but any >> So, this is to me this is a place where mirrors could help, >> right?
But but driveway to road or intersection, I don't think mirrors are because they're going to they're they're not a permanent fix. But that that would that would be something you could help. >> I think the challenge is that the so the code addresses where trails meet other
um roads or driveways. And so right now, if someone's riding along the trail and someone comes out of that driveway, >> they might not see a horse going along >> and then they could be held currently based on how the code is written. They
could be held in violation, right? Like obviously nobody wants an accident of a car. >> Wait, I'm sorry. Go back. If you're talking about a d-road and what? >> So if someone So whoever that driveway is, right? So there's now they have vegetation, they have bushes or whatever
growing right up to the edge of the trail. And so if they came out of their driveway and someone was riding crop down the trail, >> a car might not see them. >> That's why I said I think a mirror for that would work. >> But then but that that's the case for every single driveway all along the road
on all of those roads. >> Well, that's a right. That's that that's you know again putting a little bit of ready ready shoot aim putting the trail in without thinking about safety first right just here we go let's dedicate the trail oh by the way we don't have enough
signs you know that not again I'm I'm a I'm a love the idea of a greenway and and people being able to walk and ride their horses or whatever but yeah now now we're we're being reactive instead
of proactive And and in in a in a case like that, I mean, it's it's just got to be maybe a caution sign for the horse. Big wonder and then the mirrors for the everybody. >> But do you think and I don't know the
answer here. So one question, one question is do we modify this document in some way because we have situations now maybe that are challenging with this document or and or do we do things like
that and then like who pays for that, right? Like I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. I'm just saying like if we had to do mirrors and signs at every single driveway crossing along every canal in town, that's a big >> It is. But it's but but now we have a
trail that no one can use because it's unsafe. >> I mean say we can't use it. It's like it's sort of like well we >> have to think about we have >> it's unsafe anyway because people drive their cars on it. Right. >> Well, that's true. >> Another problem. >> I have seen them on collecting and held down.
>> Right. >> I guess you know if we're gonna think about how this language has to be modified, >> you know, if we are want to modify the language, we can't ignore the actual like implementation um around town. And so,
uh that I don't think there's an easy answer because if there was, we would have already come up with it. Um, >> I mean the other the other option you have is, you know, do you set a rule and then if somebody needs an exception to the rule, you have a process that allows
you to do an exception, which Karen is saying because the road was shortened, I'm going to petition for free, whatever, or send an email, whatever the process is to say, I shouldn't now the town has a record of, you know, don't go
on Karen's property because she has an exception. It's another way you can do it. I'm not saying right or wrong, >> right? Like if there is a good reason you can't comply with the rule, then do you apply for the being grandfathered in
or some sort of sort of Yeah, 100%. Because nobody I There's no way I'm going to let somebody cut down a tree just because can't see a rip through it. That's not >> There you go. >> But trimming a bush I don't have a problem with. No, but you can't. Are
notable toas are like palm trees. You can't cut the hill. >> Well, you could you can, but they will die. >> Right. Right. Right. 100%. I mean, I know people have oak trees
lying along there. You're going to make them cut in the dale, right? 20, 30 year old oak tree. >> Absolutely not. >> Of course. So then I guess if we have if we have situations that um don't comply with the line of sight safety rules um
what do we do or do we require residents to do something um to make the that intersection more safe? Does the town do something that's um because I agree like I have an idea. How about if we
concentrate on the language and how it works for intersections? And when it comes to the horse trails and that safety, we let RedGap toss that one around about how to help it be more
safe. But but we can talk about it needs to be safe and here's where it it it you know where it would fit in in in line of sight because clearly it's an intersection. I mean you know we're not
asking we're not asking pedestrian gates to be you know follow line of sight. And again I'm not saying no one's life is unimportant but please don't m understand me.
But right, there is a bit of, hey, I'm coming up on a driveway. >> I got to take a few minutes and make sure nobody's coming. But maybe going forward then, Roads and Trails says,
"Hey, before we put the next one in, like I don't I mean I'm I don't know." But at least for at least for driveways and intersections, we should pro I think moving forward >> I think they should close the gates again until they do something. They they
shouldn't be open to traffic. I'm sorry. >> No. Along the trail. Absolutely. >> Well, they they I was told those gates were going to stay closed. So they can go in and out along people's driveways, but not the out the main areas. No. >> And once they open those main areas, because people like to fish and stuff,
they drive along there. Do we know how did they get open? >> Don't Don't we have the >> They're unlocked. The town unlocked them. >> But I thought they were putting some sort of >> They don't have any stoppages. It's fully open once the gates open. >> At the end of the road, >> all the roads. >> Oh,
>> they all had gates. They're all open. >> Well, I guess at the end some of the connecting trails are just have the post. So you >> We don't have any close on our >> And I don't think the other ones do either. >> Probably not. Yeah, >> but that's a more um achievable solution
at least to keep cars and vehicles from driving up those trails. >> Golf birds and the um what are those big new things are driving? >> What is those big those quad things that
are they're like they're everywhere. They do 60 miles an hour over the speed. I'm trying to get air front of my in front of my I don't know if that's what it makes sense. >> Maybe. >> No, because the parts didn't really look like a car that were left behind >> those new big boulders. >> So, you guys want to we want to look at
the language for the driveways and the intersections only and then we'll send to Red Tech or roadway, whatever they are, send them the trail one. You think we should do that? Well, I mean, I don't I don't I'm not trying to pass the bug,
but what I'm saying is that that if they could come up with some ideas that would help. >> Well, I think it is a little bit of like a master plan question for the trail system, right? Because the trail system is relatively new and it's still evolving. >> Maybe they could meet with us. >> That's right. I mean, I I do think it
requires some brainstorming and I'm not saying that Wellington does everything right, but like obviously I'm a very extensive >> Oh, they had those nice stop signs at all those inter >> and so like can we do that suddenly? No. But is it I I do think like if we're going to the plan is for the town to
continue to have an improved trail system. And so this is like a big picture question. So maybe we don't um >> try to fix the language for this today, but have a bigger picture conversation with that group too because it >> you want to do a joint meeting. Do you
want me to make a suggestion or do you want them first to bowl the issue and see if they feel that a joint meeting is necessary? Could we write a Could we write maybe write like a a paragraph summary that we send to them and and let them have a discussion?
>> For sure. I mean, because it does fall under line of sight and it's going to have to be included anyway. This is this is kind of where we're going. Roads and trails, what do you see being a a a safe answer? >> And maybe they've talked about it already or maybe it's part of a bigger
picture plan they're working on. And if it's not, then it probably should be right >> included. And then there's always the funding side of it too of like, well, if we decide we need signs or this or that, like how did that get paid for? >> Why don't I do that? Uh why don't I do this? I'll get in touch with Craig. He's
the leazison to that committee. Talk with him and find out if they've had any discussions. If they have, I'll invite him to come to our next month and he can talk to you about that. If he hasn't, then I'll ask them to bring it forward. Now, does somebody want to take a stab at the paragraph? summary. I want I've
gonna I've got Do we need that? If um if you talk with Craig made I I think you can summarize pretty easily what we're what we're concerned about. >> Okay. I'm sorry. Either he'll come to the next meeting or we'll ask that at their next available meeting that they discuss it and then Greg can come and
tell us what they decided. >> Yeah. So that we can it's very silly for us to work on this parallel to that group working on it and then >> Okay. Yeah. >> So you want to hold off on discussion on this until we get that in hand. Okay? And then next meeting we'll
come back on the nuisance. I'll send you a couple of examples. We'll go through the definition and we want limited circumstances to allow it. >> Make sense? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Good. All right. All right. So, we're now with all this.
>> Oh my goodness. Yep. What do you have? This is the violation. >> So, >> that's your violation, too. >> It's framed. Putting it up on the wall. >> Oh, that's so nice. >> Um, you want to tell us about it?
>> Well, I hope they I love I love that it's a It doesn't say anywhere that it's a courtesy notice, but anyway, we No, we don't really want to talk about this. We want to talk about how to fix it so that I can fix it. >> Right. Correct. >> I just I don't like these things. And
right now we're on hold by the council. >> We're on hold by the council. >> Right. Exactly. We're in a mortorium. >> But he calls me and asks. Sure. But otherwise we're not enforcing. >> Okay. Okay. So, I think the first thing we need to do is figure out where to take the
measurements from a consistent place throughout meaning um whether it's edge of pavement for to run to run parallel along the road and then like as Karen said um for
the for the leg B of the triangle that runs down the driveway. What's what's the width that So, so if you want to cut 10 ft, if that's the number we're going to stay at for the line of triangle for driveway to road,
where's the where does A and B meet? Do we going to do are we going to do like 10 foot >> because we have all different driveway materials. We have different widths of driveway. Some of them are doubles. Run. I have my my neighbors and I run side by
side. >> Right. >> So, it's a double driveway. Double drive. >> Now, you have a huge line of sight if you have a double driveway. >> Right. Right. Would it make more sense to measure to have a measurement point be from the center of
the driveway as opposed to the edge of the driveway? >> Well, that's what they do in most big intersections. They take it from the center of the intersection and and so that's their starting point. Center center center line to center line and then it doesn't matter but the
number is >> right because then the width of the street or the driveway doesn't matter. >> You know what I'm going to actually ask the staff member who's been who's our engineer >> because that's >> let him come answer that question because it doesn't make sense if we're
making it smaller and he goes that won't help you in the line of sight. he won't from a roadway perspective. So, let's hear from him and I'll have him >> but but right because even but here's the deal that there's a good chance that when we put it in the center that that that line of sight's going to the number
is going to change. >> Oh yeah, >> right. It's not it's going to go from 25 to probably for intersections it's probably going to go well 25 might be good for intersections but it 10 probably won't cut it for driveways. It might be 25. >> That's good. >> And 15 or something like that. But
>> well, but you might I'm sorry. You might want to make a distinction, which I think what Karen was saying is, you know, if your width of your driveway is 10 feet, this is what you do. If your width is 25 ft, this is what you do. I'm not saying do that. It makes it much more complicated. But maybe that's something to consider. Then you take
into consideration. >> But if you're doing center like this, it won't matter. >> Yeah. Well, it won't matter because they'll still have to come back 15 because it's it's your it's her sorry, it's that person driving out and then it's 15 for this person to see you if
it's from center to center. >> What I'm thinking and maybe I'm wrong is that if this is the center that you're coming from, this is where your 10 feet will start, right? Well, it won't be 10.
This is 10 feet versus if you did it from here, this would be your 10 feet, >> right? So, you would have to if you're measuring for the middle, then the measurement that you're using would be different question. Maybe that >> maybe it's not the same triangle, >> right? Right. >> Well, they do have different triangles
throughout this. They have a they have this the small one which is the the very important line of sight and then they have the bigger one which they allow for chain link fences or spurt rail fences or trees that have branches. >> No, but all these are right angles. Maybe it's not a right angle if it's a different size driveway.
Maybe it it looks more like this. >> But it's possible the engineer has a standard answer for that. So maybe that's where we that's our next thing is to see if there's like a standard engineering >> right answer for for measuring. >> Mhm. >> Okay.
>> Because I went through the road book, F DOT's road book. I went through um Palm Beach County's um >> manual traffic. >> Manual. Exactly. And I rode through them all and there is no one there because there's so many different
kinds of intersections. There's no one formula. Do they have one formula for driveways? >> The center for for driveways. They they say edge of payment typically, but the triangle changes. It go it stretches out longer. If you have this kind of a
driveway, it will stretch out longer. So yes, but there's no one measurement. It is you got to do the formula. It's a to 30 ft from edge of payment or if you're doing from edge of payment back. It's really complicated. And >> I was trying to make it simple, >> right?
Exactly. >> No good deed goes unpunished because those funnel driveways that everybody has the big >> that's what I saw about for the trailers and everything. It's not a straight >> 100% >> driveway >> 100%. So no. Is there one answer? I mean yes there's a straightforward answer for
intersections and they that's middle middle of the intersection this way. So whoever let's say collecting canal and B- road it's 25 ft. They need to trim their trees this way a little bit and this way a little bit and whatever. >> Right. >> But for driveway stuff, especially when
they Yeah. >> Well, I think we're got hopefully we got a remedy. >> But well, there's that. And then what? >> Hey, wasn't there something? >> There's also Yes, there is. >> Because if you have a gated fence that's always closed, they weren't they putting um
>> That's That was the access that was defined access, right? Um, so it's not really a driveway, but occasionally used, >> right? For example, there's a guy on there's somebody on Collected Canal with a big solid wooden fence, and there's actually a gate in there that they may
have used to build the place or not. And it's a solid wooden fence, so it clearly doesn't pass line of sight, but I don't know if they even use it. You know, like I feel like somebody should just be like, I don't use it, >> right? This isn't an active.
>> I don't use it, >> but once or twice and then Okay. Okay, we believe you. But if you happen to drive by and you see like people come in and out like, oh, wait a minute for for sure because that could happen too. I'm
sure people will take advantage. But >> but maybe that's not the that's not the primary thing that the town is trying to address and rectify at this time. more. >> I don't know because there were a lot of those notices hanging on secondary fences >> or unused
>> on secondary fences. That's >> no way of knowing whether you use it one time or whether you use it 20 times. >> Well, I think if there's an open driveway somewhere else, you can assume that one's not being used. >> I don't know about that because some of them could be used for, you know, the personal where the other one could be
used for your business. >> You know, could be trailers versus regular cars. I mean, I just looked at a property that has three access points and one is only used for service vehicles. So, like, yes, that should for sure comply because trucks are coming in
and out. One is the main entrance and then another one is never used. >> Christina's place. >> It's not that place, >> but that's exactly what she has. She has the big one for everybody, then she has the second one that's coming and then one that >> says it has a statement that, you know,
this access point is not used. Then um then maybe >> okay >> well right and then there has to be because there are yeah because some of the gates are on easements that may or may not be used as an easement at this
point in time and then it's going to get into the trouble of well you know for building you still have to follow line of sight because if it ever does change even if you're not using the gate then somebody's going to be mad in five years or two years when we say,
"Oh, this you now need to cut your line of sight and it's a big tree or whatever, you know, that that that's fair, too. >> Be part of the diligence." Like if the property was sold, right? You would go and look and see what if it had variances or, you know, exceptions or
something. >> Well, that's all in the that's on the deed, right? Whether it's used as an easement or not. >> Sorry. Yes. I I didn't mean specifically about easement, but more um like if you had filed for some sort of exception with the town that you're doing
diligence on >> hopefully you're hopefully discover those things. >> Yeah. But my point is is that even if you discover it >> now there's a tree planted in the line of sight that you don't want to cut down. >> Right. Right. >> So we could we could go around that by
just having it in there. >> Doesn't have an exception to the rule and I think you should put that in there. >> Yeah. Right. So that one um definitely not pedestrian gates. >> All right. Wait, it was
>> What else you got? >> Um so these are three different ways to measure them. Hang on. But this Yeah, I feel like there should be ways for them to if they want to come into compliance. Let's just say for example,
we have someone who's older and or they don't live here and they can't get to it and they don't want to go into magistrate to the tune of $100 a day after a 12 day whatever uh allowance that you give them for line of sight which again I think is going to be
public health and safety. It would also be a way to a way to say to them, we have a contractor. This is what it would cost if you use us since you're not here and we will cut it down to this thing and you can pay for it in a special assessment or you can put it on, you
know, ways for them for people to get in compliance or if they're older and they can't get out there with their chainsaws, whatever the case may be. I know we have a lot of people in town that that that aren't around. You know, there's a lot of properties that right
>> or or elderly >> or >> elderly like there just there needs to be a way for it to get for this kind of thing to because it's townwide and it's traffic and it's not just oh we don't like your bushes, but let's get them down. let's help you and and make it
easy for them to pay it off if if they can't be here or they can't afford it or whatever the case may be so that they don't end up in magistrate with a huge fine. They typically with jurisdictions they set up a program for that because generally the government is not in the
business to be lawn you know to be landscapers >> right >> so but um they'll many times they'll do a program that they'll set aside money um like I used to do it where we set aside the code >> okay >> so it wasn't money from advil valorum it was money that we collected from a code
fine okay >> and they put it aside and create like a neighborhood help program or something that certain criteria that They could use a tree uh money for that. >> The tree mitigation. >> Or we could get Karen's car person who just kind of maybe we'll just mow it right down. We don't have to worry about it.
>> We got to put it back. >> That's the whole That's the whole other part of that that you need. >> So just a way for just >> Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yeah. >> For everybody to get into plans on this issue. I mean other things, you know, you do it on your own, but this one >> But if you had a hardship that you could
apply for some sort of assistance, >> 100%. Well, especi Oh, I know >> where the where the where the >> is it >> fruit the fruit stand is. Who owns that anyway? >> Brow is >> that's further that's further down.
>> Isn't that Cro? >> Wait, >> no, it's B. So, you Yeah, you got a It's a mess. It's a it's a hot meth and I feel like oh well maybe they just don't know maybe they're older I don't know but it certainly needs to be cleaned up and I'm
not and I know be is not the only one but that's the only road I ever take >> right part of the process is which obviously we're working on is like making it clear what the requirements are and then >> yeah what the requirements are and why
why this is a thing. It's not, you know, this is a townwide concern as we're growing and the speed limits not being adhered to and yeah. Yeah. Compliance base, right? If if if
remedy is >> if remedy is what we're after, then let's let's make it easy for every easy easy for everybody to do it. >> We need more speed bumps. >> We need speed tables. But yes, we do.
>> I wouldn't mind bumps. >> If you're in the back of an airplane, we would hate a bump. >> You could You know what? That's okay. While we're while we're I'm wondering why we didn't we did when you were talking to the
engineer. Why aren't they speed ditches allowing water to run which is what we always wanted to do into the drainage that we're trying to get cleaned up. And why aren't they >> Oh, instead of going up, why don't we go down? I don't know the answer to that.
It's a good question. >> Smart. that because I feel like that would help. Maybe it's more damaging to cars. >> Good. >> Yeah, I've seen some places out west that have those, but um but it's really
uh really hard on your suspension and you know, tires. >> Not if you're doing 25. >> Driven over something, you have to go like two miles an hour to like safely. >> Maybe that's what we need then. >> I'm with you. might be harder to
maintain. I don't know. Bump is easier to >> I might try one in front of my house there. Down B road now there are two speed bumps that that are specifically fun for and I guess for people and they are now clear brake marks as they catch
more air than they think they should. Brakes on the other side spinning over into this way. Yeah. So I don't know. Speed bumps are just too much fun for most of these y'all. >> Next comments.
>> All right. So, anything else? Do we have a motion to adjurnn? That a motion to adjurnn. >> Do I have a second? >> All in favor? I smell Baby.