I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Uh, we'll have a moment of silence for warm weather
in South Florida. >> We don't usually do a roll call. Um, but we do have a little bit of an agenda because we have the this. So, can I have a motion to adopt the agenda to to talk about the RV parks RV program? I'm
sorry. >> Motion to adopt. >> Second. >> All in favor? I. Okay. None opposed. Um, before we start, is there anybody from the audience who has anything that they would like to ask council
this time? Yeah, >> that's okay. Great. Go ahead. >> It's Yeah. Well, that's what we're going to be talking about. Yeah. But >> you don't have to say >> you don't you don't have to say it all now. You can pipe in it after you hear what we have to say or you can say your piece now. Completely up to you. This is
very informal. It's >> very Yeah. >> Um, as I've been saying all along with the RV program, the fact that they leave it year round is a huge problem. It should be tailored just to the equestrian season, just to the equestrian people. and we should know who's coming in the town and who's on
the lots and where they are and they should have to pay for it when they come into town. They have to check in and pay the fees so the town's not losing money on this. With a year- round program, you got people coming down here six months at a time spending their winters here from Michigan and Canada. They have nothing to do with the equestrian season. We're just a big trailer park.
So, you need to narrow it down to the equestrian season just for equestrians, not vacationers coming from Michigan or Canada or anywhere else. They're going to spend six months in somebody's backyard and transit through our town. That's the my biggest complaint. You see some of these acre and a half lots have
three campers on them because we don't have the money, the funding to enforce anything, which is why we have an apartment building on Hyde Park. So, it really needs to be paired down to the equestrians for equestrian season. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> You can hold
>> or just set it on a chair. >> You can just set it on the table's fine. >> Thank you. Okay. Um I guess the best way to handle this to tackle this is to look at the changes proposed by staff one at a time
and and see what we agree with and don't agree with unless somebody else has a better suggestion. Um, so basically the program is going to be divided into two categories, personal, unoccupied, and occupied. So let's look at personal unoccupied first. So one RV per parcel,
no matter the size, everybody gets their one RV. To own that one RV, they have to build up an affidavit. They're going to get a sticker that's going to have some cost associated with it. Um, and that sticker goes on the RV, automatically
renews every year. The cost of the affidavit is the cost of the sticker, and no inspection is done unless a complaint's received. Let's just tackle that first. Is everybody okay with all of those points? Does anybody have anything they want to add or delete?
I personally I have a problem with the no inspection unless there's a complaint because I mean, while I know that that was what was burdensome was getting everybody to come in and do the inspections and people finding time and and everything,
um, you know, I think that making sure that if people have and people who have just their personal ones parked in their driveway generally have them plugged in because you don't leave them not plugged in because then they smell horrible and they get mold and all that kind of stuff. Um, I just think making sure that
they have proper electric and that there's some kind of a Well, maybe if the affidavit just had um, who takes your sewage away or something like that on it, you know, at least we'd be counting on people's words, but those
are the things I'm concerned about. >> Well, I mean, if you have if you're just storing it for personal use, you're not getting rid of sewage. >> That's true, >> right? That's not always >> and you can plug into Well, I mean, we're talking about strictly just
storing your personal RV, >> right? So, we're talking about just storing your personal RV. It's you're storing it and you can plug into a 110 15 amp outlet and be able to run a dehumidifier and things like that. You don't have to have the full complement
of the air conditioner, all that stuff. >> Right. >> So, you don't need a special hookup or none of that stuff. >> Okay. >> Right. So, I mean, I think the affidavit for for storage works fine and you can have, you know, if you have, but you know, like if you have a, you know,
living quarters horse trailer, which came up last time we were talking about it, right? Some people are saying, "Well, that's an RV." I guess technically I guess it is an RV because there's sleeping quarters on it and you can, you know, and use it for recreation. You're not necessarily using it for
business. So, so does that mean that I can't have a a living quarters horse trailer plus >> toy hauler plus an RV? >> Yeah. >> Plus a camper. >> Well, I mean, you know, people have all kinds of toys these days, right? So, I
mean, yeah, some have a toy haulers, some might use their >> And those usually have sleeping quarters in them, too. Yeah. >> That's Yeah. Well, it's a half RV and you put your side by side in the back or whatever four-wheelers or something like that. So, you know, I think maybe just the affidavit needs to stipulate that
nothing is being used as a living quarters type of scenario, something like that, cuz you start relegating to, you know, >> what about when you have out of town guests, they can't stay in that in it. >> Well, I mean, it's it's >> if anytime I'm just saying anytime you
I'm just bringing up a point. every time you have what if what if your in-laws come four times a year and stay in it for 3 weeks or two weeks, whatever. I mean, does that then make it a living quarters? Is there a stipulation for that or is it just, >> you know, I I don't know. I'm just
throwing out possibilities. >> Well, that's the inherent problem of this whole program, right? >> 100%. >> Inherent problem of this whole program is you can sit there and you can pick apart and you can go this is this and this and this, >> right? and oh well you know how come I have 2.5 acres
so I can't have three spots that are powered etc on my property but because somebody has a halfacre more than me they can have >> three spots three to five spots and I can only have two >> right >> you know so it's it's a whole thing you know um there was something brought up at the last time I think it's it was
added in or I can't remember but you know if you have and I don't mean to jump around but you know there's another if you have, >> you know, a disabled family member, you know, but you don't have room in your house, but they need a place and whatever. I mean, that there's a, you
know, like you say, a mother-in-law or >> a courtesy thing. Yeah. >> Yeah. A courtesy thing or whatever. So, you know, again, but to what, you know, Robert's saying, you know, you start letting too much stuff go and then you get, you know, four RVs on two acres or
acre and there's people living in each one of them. So, he's, you know, I don't I don't know where the happy medium is, I guess. >> Yeah. Well, here's how we got here. We started talking about this the last meeting, and I threw a wrench into it and said, "Well, we're spending $80,000
administering, collecting $20,000 in in fees, right?" So, it's actually costing the town $60,000 to do these permits, which doesn't resolve the issue of the people that aren't getting permits and are having six RVs and dumping sewage. So, >> so my my thought was why don't we just
set up these rules, not have a permitting process. You set the rules up and if somebody's in violation, then we go after those people that are in violation of that, >> right? So, >> but again, where where do you start with the rules, right? That's what we're talking about, right? >> But then again, where do you get the 80,000 from >> staff? They they they
>> job costed it. Yes. >> Because usually when we ask for job costs, how they they >> I'm sure they were winging it. So, was is it maybe 60,000? Could be. But they're but they're guesstimating a full, you know, full >> big loss. Yeah. >> Right. But we're also looking at, you know, they put a lot of effort into
>> this past that last what last spring, last June, >> trying to get the new program >> and there there were a lot of Yeah. There were a lot of people that were cited that were following along with the program, >> right? >> So, you know, that just begs to differ how much time do we spend, you know, on
that when really should be have a plan set in place and how how we're tracking it and how we can make sure that these people aren't that was the big thing, right? Why, you know, I think it was Jane Casman Harding was like, you know, I go through the hassle of doing all the steps I'm supposed to do, but then I get
an an ov on my gate, you know, and it's like, and I'm one of the five compliant people, >> for lack of a better term, you know. >> So, it's I mean, I agree just come up with a rule. If people are breaking the rule, then you cite them, right? >> Right. But it also in in turn I don't
know that we want to be just cite them because you they might not be breaking the rule. It might from the street it might look like they're breaking the rule. I don't know. I it's this whole thing is cuz you go I we go out right now still daylight out. I guarantee we find 10 places. I bet you they're all on
the list of non-compliant. I think basically what you need to do as a land owner >> sorry you need the mic recorded sorry >> just talk really close to the mic. >> Thanks Cassie. I think being a land
owner and listening to what you're saying, I think you need to determine whether it's a residential or a commercial business that's being run at the acreage that you're speaking about. Because if it's a if it's personal,
whether you have horses, whether you have people that come down for the season that bring their horses and take care of your horses, that's that's still personal. But if you're merely sticking a sign out that says, "I have a room
that you can rent for three months, six months, whatever, and it happens to be an RV or a trailer or something like that you have sit out on the back lot that is commercial. So, it's a matter of whether you're making this RV residential for those that live here and
that have people from time to time that are somehow connected with them, whether it be family, whether, as you said, a disabled relative, mother-in-law, um, stable worker, whatever, or whether you're actually running it as a
business. I don't want I don't want the the person next to me be running it as a business so that you have every vagrant John Q public that can come in at any point. I don't know who's supposed to be over
there. I don't want them on my property. You know, I I just don't think it's it's right if you're doing it as a business concern. Well, unfortunately, everything outside of your relative staying in it for two weeks while they're here in the summer or your your mother-in-law or your
disabled, you know, family member staying in it indefinitely, you know, that's that would be personal use. Anybody who has a a farm that rents out stalls for the season or what have you, whether it's year round or season,
that's that's a business. And the majority of them are claiming bonafide agricultural business, right? That's a business. Um, you know, whether you're renting it to your friends or you're renting it to to Joe Public, you know, if you're renting stalls, that's a bonafideed agricultural business noticed
by the state and that's a business. So, and there's caveats for caretakers and things like that. And I think that's what we're trying we're trying to set the whole the whole picture. So, there's two two ends of the spectrum. So, um, you know, I I didn't really agree with some of the stuff in the last one, and
I'm, you know, but, you know, that's why we're here again talking about it again. Right. So, I think where some of this went off the rails was all these strikethroughs. If you'll if you pull out your little piece of paper there, all these
strikethroughs of properties which have a permitted residential structure would be allowed to have on a temporary basis an RV. Uh, it had in here about this excluded the uh caretaker quarters, groom's quarters, and construction
trailers. So, I assume that's what got changed with ordinance 202407 and I think that's where some of these controls went out the window and now >> you definitely have to have a permitted residence on the property that you have.
>> Well, not according to this, right? So, now we have vacant land or land with four cows and four RVs on it. >> It's de facto density increase, >> right? >> So, I apologize, Mr. Austin. I was not at the beginning of this. Uh some of you
were on council I believe at the time the program was initially dreamed up back underwood and it was super super intensive with like a concrete apron and all this stuff around the RV and I don't think they ever got a person to comply.
>> Um and it was my understanding was originally discussed as an equestrian property use. There are people that, you know, lost their temper over the fact that, you know, why if I don't have a horse, but you know, I have a family
coming down for 2 months, why can't they stay on my property? And so there there was that aspect of attempting to accommodate that as well. >> And also nurseries, I believe, had a thing or two to say about not including equestrians. >> I think it's a caretaker. Right. >> Right. Right. But I'm just saying the
equestrian word became a bad word. >> Yes, it did. It became a bad word. And and I do think that that can certainly be abused as well because how many people does it take to live on a property to take care of how many horses, right? And then I don't know if we want to get into that aspect of it
either. Um but I I do it's always been my contention that we need to make we need to incentivize people to comply and compliance should be simple a at the outset and the compliance has always
been a little bit ownorous. Um the first phase of the program the pilot program was really hard. the second version was less hard and then these changes almost made it impossible to keep off of certain properties that were technically
vacant land. So that's a little worrisome. Um but I think we should keep it as simple as possible and then over time obviously enforcement's going to still be an issue on the properties that are not compliant. And I think that's where Mr. Austin, you know, I think
that's where the fail is is when the people are not, you know, complying even within what is relatively lax rules, they're not even getting tagged then. And that's a problem. And I think people that don't comply should pay a big
price. And people who are willing to come down, fill out a piece of paper, say, "I have I have a permitted septic check or I have mine pumped out check. I I sign under notary that I swear this is a true and honest statement. Here's my 50 bucks. Right.
>> Give me my sticker. >> And stickers are tough because we talked at the meeting about when you got your binoculars or you going to peek through the bushes. I can see your sticker. >> But I think that having a residence on the property really needs to be >> I think that needs to be revisited. >> Revisited. I mean, that definitely needs
to be something that needs to happen. >> I don't I don't know that the sticker is a bad thing. I mean, yeah, that's actually, you know, if if you know, you can look from the gate and you can see the trailer and you can, you know, spy the sticker, >> but I think here it says the camper should not be seen from the public right away,
>> right? >> Well, if you see the sticker, you're in violation, right? >> Yeah. So, so if I have, so if I have my camper, well, I mean, I can think of multiple properties right now that, you know, are in violation of that, of course. >> But and and yet I think they're compliant with the application portion of it. So it's it's like Yeah. You going
to make you stick them behind your house, right? Or behind the barn, right? >> Yeah. But that's always I mean depending on where you are, it's going to be able I mean that that that can't not be I mean you know it could we could say that it has to have the same rules as like setbacks. You know it has to be 50 ft
from your neighbors. >> This actually used to say I think this one says 25 ft and somewhere in here that got xed out. I'm like why why is it not the same as residential? I think that's what I think it should definitely be, but not not that you can't see from the road because that's not fair to somebody who has
>> a property that's cleared or what behind the building line or behind the leading edge of the of the main structure of the residence, you know, anything behind that. >> But I do think that, you know, the yearround housing is a no-go. It it's de
facto density increase. Um, and how how to pay for the impacts. I think um former council member Denowski was like, "Well, you know, the garbage goes up." Well, yeah. I put my garbage out twice a week during season and then during the non-season. I put it out maybe once
every three weeks. >> Yeah. If you can fit in that can, then you fit in a can. >> Yeah. >> So, I said I would like to see the statistics on that. What how much how much household waste garbage are we producing during a certain time frame? And then how much does it reduce in
>> charge? We're charged by the can, right? We're not charged. I see you're raising your hand. >> Correct. >> Yeah, we're charged by the can, right? But I can I can How many properties you see that have, >> you know, lawn trash, right? Piled in
bags piled up next to the can, but we don't send them a bill for their extra tonnage. We're not charged, by the way, right? We don't have that process in place. >> Well, it'll be interesting when we go to solid waste uh cooperative if that's going to change. But uh the the fact of the matter is is I believe it was at the
time they proposed if you had an RV you had to get an extra can because >> that's why some people have like five kids >> and it was like but why are is their annual waste that much more right and so
I think this alone has to tie into this >> I don't think this can be in a vacuum without revisiting some of these changes and every time we make changes we have to see how they they they ultimately play out because unintended consequences are going to occur. >> It's just another thing that has to be
revisited until we get it right. >> You me you mentioned nurseries, right? Because they were all because why is this just an equestrian program? >> Right. Well, correct. >> If if I'm not mistaken, there's a caveat in the building code for mobile homes for nurseries. If you have a nursery and
you have a caretaker, you can have >> bonified egg. You can >> bonified agricultural nursery. can have a mobile home that's properly septic properly but what you know that is a possibility so it's not an RV it's an actual mobile home right so to say that
well why what I you know well you there's a there's a special little caveat over here for you nursery folks so that you can have this to have a caretaker to you know watch your crops make sure the pump's not burning up that you know whatever the case may be that's there >> your frozen citrus
>> Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's it's you know to say oh well I need to have an RV. I mean, you know, it's it's just I mean, I guess there could be a caveat that's in place of the mobile home, you could have one RV, but it's to to say, well, I have a 20 acre nursery or 100 acre nursery,
so I need four caretakers. that's not, you know, and and in my mind, >> if you, you know, no offense to anyone listening, um, but if you have a bonafideed agricultural business, renting stalls and doing a training
facility, whatever, you know, I think there should be a time limit on the amount of time that you can have RVs. at some point in time, you know, you're reinvesting that and you're putting it into a proper groom's quarters or what have you because that's that's the
purpose is to have the groom on site to whatever. Why why are we prolonging this? I mean, >> well, I think the the idea was it was six less than six months, a day less than six months because of establishing residency, >> wasn't was that not one of the early conversations, >> right? >> But I mean, listen, I can I can go right
now, right? I I I get the establishing residency thing, but we have this conversation with the ALF, right? You know, or a hotel. I can go right now and I can, you know, get something sent to me, whatever, and get proof and I can
go change my address to this PO bot, this address, whatever, and I can establish residency. I can establish a voter registration. It's not like it was 30 years ago, 40 years ago where, you know, you actually had to be somewhere to establish this. You know, I don't
think it's that way anymore. >> No, you can move here. You can move here tomorrow and vote the next day. Exactly. So, this idea of establishing residency is fallacy. That's not >> That's my point. It's not, you know, the six-month thing. I get I get that. I >> I think the six-month thing is there
because >> we don't want year round like the the de facto density gain, right? We don't want to increase that density because you know so six months the season's six months which yeah six months it's it's give or take you know um that that as
you you well know that number that move with the weather. Yeah exactly you know if it starts to get cold sooner they're here in September beginning October if it stay >> depends on how cold and wet it is. >> Exactly. it stays warmer for longer >> and there spring right they want to go backwards >> establishing residency is not a good
parameter that's okay >> again and I think we have to be fair we can't say that it's >> again the six-month season that the six month equestrians need is not necessarily the same sixmon season that
let's say a grower might need right that like the bell pepper grower if they need a car you know pe somebody on the property or grooms for the peppers, whatever you want to call it. I mean, their season's going to be in the summer, so it's going to be a different six months. So, you know what I mean?
That's and that's that's where I think the saying, right? That's where I think that the year round thing came into play is that how do you how do you monitor that? Who's got what six months this person has, what six months that person has? Because they because we asked them to simplify it. So, that's where I think
that that idea came came from. I think you hit on something that it's rental versus caretaker, >> right? Caretaker is probably a year round job. >> They're an employee, >> correct? >> And so then the RV is going to be there year round. They're going to be there year round. Yeah. >> But that would be that would fall under
that which is now got a strike for it. So >> So we need to unstrike it >> and allow >> we unstrike residents. We need to unstrike that. And do we want to I mean like Paul said there's already a a built-in for nurseries to do a mobile
home which >> nobody else has. >> It's like an RV strap down. >> Yeah. >> Well, >> yeah. But I mean, nobody else has that, right? Cattle farm doesn't have it. Nobody Nobody else has it. Horse farms don't have it. >> They need better lobbyists,
>> I guess. So, you know, well, they they got they got the rental units in for a so you know, but then yeah, the the the nurseries have that caveat, right, in the building code that they can have this. So, it's, you know, it's it's
excuse me, uldc. So, you know, it's there. They have that option. You know, >> is that in our ULDC? >> No, >> I got to check ours, but it's I mean, it's pretty common. I must say I I know I said in the ODC I'm my bad. I I I really need to double check ours
>> because yeah that's that's not ringing a bell with me >> but it's it's a very common practice and if it's not there great then they they >> okay >> come in on this >> you're throwing that out there I'm sitting here >> I think I'm mixing codes here >> mixing metaphors. Uh but I think the
question then becomes obviously most of this activity is in the winter season which is not our hurricane season. Are we setting up a problem with RV residency during hurricane season? So,
>> well, that's Yeah, that's a thing, too. I mean, >> what why don't we start with the lowhanging fruit like like you talked about? You have to have a permanent resident residential structure on the property to be able to have any RV, even store one. Right. >> Right. 100%. >> So, that brings back a here.
>> Even if you're a nursery. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You got to have a you gota have a permanent residential structure on the property because >> even if the even if the residence that the nursery has is the caretakaker's quarters which is a mobile home that still is a residence. >> Right. >> Right. And then if they need an
additional caretakers or fruit picker that's my point is my point is is >> are we saying aside from the caretaker quarters >> if you're a nursery and you don't and there's no house on there's no residential structure but you have a
caretaker's RV >> I don't think you should be able to have one if there's not a permanent residential dwelling there you shouldn't have an RV there because this isn't storage facilities this isn't storage lots and the idea And I was the one that came up with this forever ago because if there's not somebody living there that's
watching this, somebody from New York could buy 5 acres, they rent out two slips for RVs down here and they're up in New York and who's making sure the sewage ain't going in the ditch. >> Well, that's but but that I'm not saying I'm talking about strictly the caretaker RV, right? Cuz you're saying you don't think it r it doesn't ring a bell that
they're allowed to have a mobile home there, which would be a residence. Right. Right. So, if we're going to say, okay, that's not there just on a again, we need to check, right? Um, that's not there, but it's allowed to have the
caretaker quarters in an RV under this program. >> Structure that would be that would be the only >> that was the only exception. >> You couldn't add on to that and put more slips in on the nursery. >> You follow what I'm saying?
>> No. >> Sorry. If you're a nursery, I got I >> you're limited to one caretaker RV, >> whether it's a 5 acre nursery or 100 acre nursery. Or we can even stipulate that out. If it's caret if it's a caretaker's quarters, >> if there's no residence, yeah, no,
>> they're limited to one caretaker's RV is what you're saying. >> With a septic, they got to have a septic. >> Oh, so you're saying a vacant property can have an RV with a septic tank. >> A bonafide >> bonafide agricultural nursery, sir. But we haven't determined if that's in
the code or not. You're saying that it might >> No, I'm saying if it's not, right? If it's not in the code that they can have the mobile home, right, under this RV program because the nurturers are saying >> a ch if we have to make a change, then we would make a change to that. What we would say is that the only way if you don't have a residence you can have
there is if you are bonafideed, >> which means you could be a nursery or >> I'm thinking it got >> No, I think equestrian becomes a different problem, right? How many how many horses? I mean, we've got some places now that have a lot of stalls on them, >> right? Would they be allowed how many
RVs >> for people that are stay >> We're saying four is the max. I mean, if we keep these parameters, >> so you would allow the equestrian use parcel that didn't, let's say it doesn't have a residence, but it has stabling
and then you would let the acreage determine the maximum number allowed on the parcel. >> Yeah. And I don't think it should be with bonafideed egg or not bonafideed egg. Should be different numbers because why should you almost force people to go lower their property taxes? That seems
kind of crazy. >> Okay. But you're you're looking at it that way and you can't look at it that way. you're forcing people to go lower the property taxes. Listen, if I go bonafide a today, I can tell you right now, I'm not going to the property appraiser and getting a tax reduction because it's not going to happen because
everything is so blown up in value right now, the reassessment of my home alone is going to kill that savings. So, why would I do that? Well, if you just bought something, >> if you just bought something, right, you just bought five acres and then you come to the town, you say, "I want three RVs." Well, you can only have three RVs if you have bonafide. Great. I'll go
apply and lower my taxes so I can have three instead of two >> and rent them out for a few month. >> Well, and that goes Hold on one second because Kathy's about to squirm out of her chair. So, let's let >> We're get on the candidly dancing back there. >> Well, you keep changing. You keep going
forward. So, we all know what you're talking about and everybody in the town or people many people know it's about, you know, these renting out for the season and everything else, but you're lumping in people that are out here that have toys. I have a brother-in-law who
has three boats. He can only drive one boat, but he has three boats. He has a huge deep water something with big fishing poles. Then he has something that he can take out on the lakes. And then he has another smaller boat. But what if you have
you have a toy hauler because you want to take something. You have a fifth wheel. Let's just say you have a fifth wheel and a tag along. So maybe one day you don't want to take out the F350 or it's broken, but you want to go camping with the misses and you can take your tag along cuz you got your SUV vehicle.
You're telling people they can only limit it to buy one RV on their property. They're not renting. They're not these equestrians. They're not all this other stuff. They're just people that move out here. I have nine cars on my property all registered.
Looks like a parking lot when everybody's home at one time. Are you going to limit the amount of cars? Do you understand that? >> That's what we talking. >> Do you understand that? That you're telling people, well, you can only buy one RB, but if you're a fisherman, you can have three boats. That's it's stupid. We understand what
you're trying to regulate the people like Todd said that are breaking the rules, but you're going after somebody who maybe has an S a tag along and an I'm not an RVER, but a tag along and a fifth wheel and whatever the toy hauler thing is. >> Wouldn't that fall under outdoor storage
though? Illegal outdoor storage. >> It's their vehicle. >> But that's what we're talking about. >> They're using them. >> But now you're limiting. Do we have to come to town and say, "Mother, may I buy another car?" >> Okay, let let me clarify because that's where we started. I'm not sure where when you walked in, but we haven't we
haven't left it. >> We No, we haven't left it. We're we're having discussion. Okay, let me let me be clear. >> Focus on who? >> I am staying focused. Let me be clear. I own an I own a 15t travel trailer that I just had out this weekend. I own the 30 foot three horse living quarters trailer
and I own a 16 foot two horse >> fifth wheel trailer and I have a boat. >> Okay. >> So, okay. Nobody's we're not setting any polic we're having a discussion right now and we're not attacking anybody >> that want to have toys. >> The idea is that we can set this up so
everyone can be compliant and everyone won't have a hard time. >> Anyone who's breaking the rules regulating people that want to have their toys and just stay focus. >> We're not regulating everyone who wants to have toys. I'm going to go on record of saying that. We're not trying to regulate everyone who has toys. And
>> the way we started this was talking about that. >> If you rent, I can have more RVs if I rent them. But if I just want to have a personal one, I can only own one. >> But that is why we are here. We are here to discuss the rules and change the rules. >> Stay focused on protecting the people
who aren't breaking the rules like you who have all three a bunch of toys. >> Listen, that's what we're trying to do because this this here is messed up, Cass. Everybody's been saying it since it got put into place. This here's messed up. Or else we wouldn't be bringing it back. >> And stickers to comply.
>> Well, listen. If that's what it takes, >> people that aren't breaking the rules. >> If it t if listen, >> if that's what it takes, if that's where it's >> Okay, let me go on record. We're not trying to curtail how many toys people
have. Okay, that's not where we're at. We're having an open discussion because when we're here doing this methodology of getting through the agenda that's a thousand pages because everybody has to see every little dot and every little contract that's a piggyback. We don't
have we don't have the time we don't have the time to discuss like this. So that's why we started this. Okay. So that's what we're doing and we're I don't think we are we we're not at the end here. I think I think where that then leaprogs is then to
outdoor storage where people are renting outdoor storage space. >> Well, we have that in our code I believe and we're enforcing that. So, >> right. So, I think it that the effort obviously is to eliminate the the
intensity of labor required to administer the program. Right. And we all know that certain people's properties apparently have a lot of toys on them as we learned tonight. And uh so we're going to drive by and go, "Oh,
look, he's got a boat and RV and this and a that, right?" So I think we suggested last time that maybe you just submit photos of your stuff to the town so that when the code guy drives by like, "Oh, look, they own all those. Next next property, right?" I
I don't know how to make it simpler. I have a problem, Todd, with well, if it's got a bonafide a with equestrian use, but it doesn't have a house, then the size of the lot determines it because what if I have one horse on 10 acres,
but I have four RV slots because I got 10 acres, >> right? That's another way of >> one border makes you bonafide egg. Yeah. >> So, I I think that I think originally there was some attempt to say one per so many stalls or something like that. Um,
>> but then that's only equestrian. So, and it's not supposed to be >> we're allowing nurseries to do something else as well. And and I'm sorry, nurseries and horses are not the same. Nurseries come in, they mow down all the trees, they put up some sprinklers, and they have the least amount of capital investment. Horses
come in, they got to landscape it. They've got as far as like they've got to get the fencing up. They've got to get if they want to have their pastures not turn brown, you know, they've got to spend a lot of money on a barn, they got to have water for those horses, you know, that's hopefully something potable. There's a lot of capital
investment involved in a horse farm versus a nursery. And then the value of what's on there. Some nurseries have very valuable plants, right? But one could say that the intensity of maintaining a horse is a little different than maintaining
sable palm trees, right? So I don't think even the the property appraiser doesn't treat every egg the same. So I don't think we're limited by identifying agriculture uses and as far as intensity
of use and allowing, you know, caretaker, rental, RV locations on those properties to deal with what is there. >> But I do think it it needs to be better understood again when these things were
changed, how that impacted, you know, the properties out there that we're seeing the stuff proliferate on. So, >> well, I I agree that if the vehicle is roadworthy and is registered to that property owner, I don't think there shouldn't necessarily be a limit if it's
not permanently hooked up, right? You know what Cassie was saying. So, if you have >> the permanently hooked up, >> I'm just saying I don't >> you see where the whole where the rabbit hole goes. >> I understand how two two simple problems end up being 50. No, believe me, I've
done I've done this long enough. I get that. I know. I know. You know, so the but the intent is that, right? So, if you have four, you know, RVs that are personally registered to you and they're roadw worthy, you shouldn't need a permit and all that stuff. I I get that. And clearly, if you look at historical aerial, you can see, oh, that one hasn't
moved for 5 years. You know, clearly it's not roadw worthy and all that that something's going on here. This thing is probably permanently hooked up and somebody's living in it, right? Your RV's moved how many times in the past year, right? At least two or three times, right? So Ariel, you can clearly see that
>> only if I'm gone between uh February whatever and February whatever when they do the picture, but I'm >> right. So yeah, and I still disagree that whether it's bonafide a or a or bonafideed egg or not, it should be easy where staff can look at it and say,
"Wait a minute, there's six of them aren't here. Who cares whether they're bonafide?" >> You say easy. This is what I don't find that's not easy. In this town, we have two uses besides this stuff, >> right? And the churches, we have two uses. We have residential and we have
bonafideed agricultural. That's it. >> So why it's difficult for anyone here in this building to be able to say this is a bonafideed egg property? I have no clue. >> Well, because you've seen where somebody gets half an acre on 10 acres, that's bonafideed egg. So because they got half
an acre for bees, now they can have more or less. >> No, no, I'm not. But what I'm saying is you're you're saying the distinction shouldn't be agg or no a, right? I'm saying a is a big distinction because and it should be fairly easy for that should be one of
the first things any code enforcement officer that comes in this town learns is how to research within five minutes and figure out whether this property is bonafideed a or not. >> Well, here's how we get in here's how we get into that issue. you and you've seen it where somebody will buy a parcel,
they lose the bonafideed egg. Their intent is their intention is to get it the next January, right? And during this time, they don't have it and then staff will say, "Well, if you get it in January of next year, then you'll be retroactively approved." You know, they've done that with trees and stuff.
>> You can you can apply at any time during the year. It just doesn't go into effect. No, >> they won't let you apply now anytime during the year. No. >> So, if I buy a property in June, I can't go ahead and apply. >> Correct. Not January 1st. >> January through April. I think April March. >> Yeah, but January you can get you can
get what? Hold on. Hold on. >> You don't need to you don't need to register with the county. >> All you need is an LLC and filing federal taxes as a farm. >> But to get the >> You don't need the exemption >> to get the ad classification. You can't do that till January 1st. >> But you don't need the ad classification
unless you want unless you want the tax exemption. >> Yeah, but that's what we're saying. We're saying there's a different RV amount whether you have bonafideed a or not. Bonafide egg isn't solely dictated on on tax exemption, my friend. >> Bonafide egg. Yeah. >> No, it's not. That is not the sole designation. I do not have to go
>> right now and get a tax exemption to be bonafideed a >> How do you figure I don't have to I don't if I want to pay full boat taxes, I can pay full boat taxes, right? >> That's all that the the property appraiser is there for. They're not there to tell if I file a schedule F with the IRS and I have an LLC as a
farm. I'm a farm. >> Okay. But this is agricultural business. >> This is based on property appraisal whether you have >> Well, it should be because that's not the that's not the sole designation. >> That's my point. It shouldn't be based on that. >> But no, you're saying it should be based on a or not a I can be a
>> I can be a I can be a bonafideed agricultural business without going to Palm Beach County Property Appraiser and getting a tax. >> Town Hall people can't figure out which ones are a. >> So if it's very easy, show me proof. No, it's it's show me
proof. >> Okay. >> Show me proof. If you can show me proof that OK McFarmm LLC exists and you're filing federal income taxes as a bonafide agricultural business, that eliminates the need for Palm Beach County. Absolutely.
>> Does that use stick with the property though or just with the with the uh corporation? >> Well, no. If you leave that use goes away. >> I understand. >> Yeah. But how does one attach that corporate use to that location? I could be that corporation and I'm, you know,
taking my cost of manure removal and feed and everything else against my income, but I could be in three locations within Lockxahhatche Groves. >> You could have right there together, right? >> Ask Alman Farm. >> Ask Alman Farm. They got they got multiple multiple plots with or multiple
properties farms utilizing the egg. Well, I'm sure they are, but that's, you know, I'm just saying >> in general, you don't have to have Palm Beach County property appraisers to be bonafideed a. So, I don't want it I don't want the takeaway from this >> that gets read through the AI >> use,
>> you know, dictation of the minutes to say that a use is only if you have bonafideed egg with Palm Beach County because that's not the property appraiser. >> There's two different things. There's having a farm and there's bonafideed egg. Bonafide egg is in the Florida statutes, it's only for the property appraisers designation. The other the
other statutes talk about just having a farm. It's two different things. >> Yeah. But I don't have to be I don't have to be bonafideed a go if I have an a property and I run an agricultural business. So you want to take it on that. If I run an agricultural business on an a property, I don't have to go pull a building permit
>> because it's a farm. >> It's a farm. >> Not bonafideed agriculture. >> But if you talk to other people, oh, it's bonafideed agricultural business. >> A zoned. >> Yeah. >> But there's a difference from a farm to bonafide a bonafideed egg is only used for property appraiser. The non-residential farm building exemption is for farms, not for bonafideed egg,
for all farms. >> Right. But you don't have to. >> But but you keep saying bonafideed egg for I'm sorry because that's what everybody knows it as. Right. >> But it's not accurate. >> Okay. But but everybody when you speak about it, that's that's the term they use. >> Right. I get what you're saying, but everybody that's the term they use.
>> And people say, "I got the ad exemption from the property appraiser." And they're not getting an a exemption from the property appraiser. They don't give that. They give an ad classification. Well, that's cuz back in the day >> I know people >> I had I had a couple horses and some and some cows and we got agricultural exemption because we had a farm. It was
our personal own farm. We ate our own cows and they rode our own horses but we still got then they changed it, right? So that's where that comes from. But I mean so anyway, I think we're getting on a tangent. So it's you know the I think the thing is is where does it go from
like Lisa is saying out outdoor storage to whatever and then how do we divvy this up? I mean the easy way is by acreage because right because >> certain acre size >> less than two acres one RV and
and you know no limit or no thing on on any kind of what do you call them auxiliary vehicles or whatever as long as you take a picture of them and report them into town or something like that. Lisa's suggestion. Resident owned. >> Resident owned and you take a picture of them like and there you're talking about
your trailer with the living quarters and your toy hauler and your whatever other is that does that apply to everybody who has a bunch of toys in their property but doesn't rent an RV? I mean that's to Cassy's point. You know, let's say, you know, her husband has a
toy hauler and a and a boat and she's got a horse trailer with living quarters and they have an RV that they like to take out and, you know, their kid shows up with um something else, but then they also rent two RV slots. So,
how does one I guess if you're not renting any RVs at all, is that going to then insist that every property owner that has some things that they own that fall under those designations now has to jump through a hoop? That's where you
get into HOA. >> How do we prove that they're renting it? >> Well, this this sheet right here says personal, unoccupied, no limit. So, where Cassie is talking about there is no limit. still saying you have to you still have to alert the town that you own it,
>> right? >> Yeah. And and I thought we were trying to get away from that. We're trying to get away from permitting. >> Well, I think the personal that that that falls Yeah. I don't I don't see why we have to go like I understand what you're saying. So, if I decide I'm going to go out and buy a sidebyside tomorrow, I got to send the town a picture of it
on its trailer. >> Exactly. >> After I've already got So, I have to update my stuff every Well, I don't I don't think the ATVs apply, but >> Well, sitting on a trailer, >> something that Yeah, >> I'm just saying. >> Golf, golf golf cart, trailer, horse trailer,
>> an RV. I've got all that stuff. So, a boat. >> Well, I mean, it says >> I have lots of money on my property. >> So, I said it it does say personal unoccupied, no limit. And I I think if it's, you know, I don't know why if I
have personal unoccupied, it should be, you know, well, if they come by and they see that there's uh hose sticking out of the, you know, what out of the RV or whatever, clearly dumping sewage, right? or whatever, they can
put a gate hanger on and let the people let whoever prove that it's not, you know, they're not dumping type of thing because it's it's personally, you know, at that point, we're going to have to prove it. >> Well, we're also going to have to prove that people are renting it. >> I mean, you can't How do you prove how
do you prove how does the code officer from the road Yeah. >> prove whether you're renting it or not renting it? Right. Okay. I mean, I have my own personal RV on my property. I have a friend who stays there probably half the year. Okay. The other half the
year she is she has a pet sitting business and she's not there but she probably stays there because it's my third bedroom because I don't have three bedrooms in my house. I only have two bedrooms. So she stays there half the year. I don't charge her rent to do that. But how do but >> how do you prove it all? >> How but but 50% of the time it's
occupied, right? So how do I how do I prove that one way or the other? You know what I mean? And and by the same tok and to Cassie's point, why should I be penalized because I don't have a three-bedroom house. I only have a two-bedroom house. So, I let this person stay there instead of inside the house with me where somebody else would. So,
it's it's a real conundrum and I don't know how we're >> that goes back to square footage and getting taxed on square footage, right? Um and >> I mean, it's it's it's a real conundrum. I mean, what what we're trying to eliminate is the illegal RV parks. That's what we're trying to eliminate.
So, we got to come up with some way to eliminate the illegal RV parks. That's what we that's what we have to come up with. And I I don't see a clear path. We've had a lot of discussion tonight, but I don't see a clear path. >> And one of the easiest thing is is the amount of RVs, right? Because you look
and you see there's six there and you're only supposed to have four. Well, then something's going on here. That's nefarious. >> Just do the numbers and do away with all this other stuff and just do the numbers. But then we've got properties that are 10 acres that they can have four because they they popped up a
>> you know they got four cows and and a rena stall, right? >> They have to have a house there. >> That's the question. Do they have to have a house? >> Yeah, that's what we're saying. They have to >> has to come back in. >> Yeah, they have to have a residence >> even if it's just a a stable like a 20
stall barn. >> I think so. I mean, what what if the >> But then the guy with the nursery can have a one for his plants. >> I don't know that he can. He's saying that, but he's not sure. >> No, I >> No, no. But our it again, the caretaker part was
>> No, you got to be able to have a caretaker for Yeah. >> Right. The caretaker was an exemption, >> but that's what >> to the residents. >> Yeah, it's an exemption of And it's only one. You can't then add four spots or two spots one, >> right? You treat the stable. you. So to
simplify it then, let me just say that what what I think we're all saying to simplify it is if you have a residence then it's less than 21 2 to 52 greater than 54. If you have a residence on the property whether you're a farm bonafide
or resident what you are okay no matter what you are. Okay. And if you are an an unoccupied egg property like no residence on it then all you can have is a caregiver quarters
>> bonafide egg >> if you are an un occupied farm. If you have no residence on the farm or >> but you have to be an operational functioning >> right >> bonafide >> farm or bonafide egg then you can have a
caretaker's quarters. Does that sound >> no matter what your egg use? >> Yeah. No matter what. >> So I can I can throw some bees on a quarter acre >> and have a caretaker for those bees. >> Correct. >> No, because that egg is only a quarter acre. >> No, you the farm the farm has to the
farm has to encompass the whole >> you don't bring in the bonafideed egg and just forget about it. You see the com. >> Well, I know. But but you know that's >> it just adds more complexity to it, >> right? No. I I think that's what we're saying. Is that does everybody pretty much in agreement with that? >> No. >> No. Okay. >> No. Because then you're going to have
people that have 10 acres, that's vacant land, get a B exemption. >> They're not going to have vacant land. They have to have a residential dwelling there. >> No, not if they're agg. >> They're allowed to have a caretaker's quarters. >> Correct. So >> that's it. And that doesn't qualify them for the stuff.
>> That's still mostly vacant land for a quarter acre of bees that they probably lease, right? They >> Right. But that but that doesn't entitle them to all these RVs. That just entitles them to their one caretakers. I wouldn't even entitle that. I would I would I would I would add a something in
there that says that >> unless you're a full-blown apiary. >> Well, yeah. Un unless you're unless you're the the the majority we can even the majority of your farm of your property is is designated as farm and used for the purposes of a farm and
bonafide. I think if we say as a farm, all the rest falls into place. But you know, as a farm, the majority of the property has to be. So if you have 10 acres, the majority is going to be what? >> 90%. >> Yeah. 80 90% of that. Then you can
qualify >> for the one >> for one caretaker. >> For one without a residence. >> Without a residence. >> But you can't slap some bees in the back corner and get, you know, a quarter acre. >> Okay. >> You know what I'm saying?
>> So a majority use. >> Yeah. Majority use. I don't know what the verbiage is, but I'm Yeah. Do you see what I'm saying? We put a >> We put a ceiling on it. >> Having that caretaker's quarters doesn't entitle you to all the other stuff, >> right? >> You have to have a >> You also have to address uh you know,
all of the other chachkas that Cassie was mentioning that uh boat, the uh the hauler. >> No, we don't. We're just talking. >> This is an RV program. >> This is an RV program. We don't have to address that stuff at all. You're not being penalized for that.
>> Okay. Okay. What if it's a house boat? >> Well, that's like I don't even see why I don't even see >> it in the pond or it's a mountain up. >> I honestly don't see why why a living quarters trailer would fall under that. I mean, I've seen some of my friends have had a pretty palatial living
quarters trailer in the past, but I wouldn't see somebody unless you're on the road traveling show to show, right? Then you might be living in the thing. But to be living on your property in that kind of estate, it's not >> a luxury state. >> It's not a luxury state. >> Yeah. I mean, I've seen a nice I mean,
it took a, you know, sport hauler to haul the thing. It was so big. All right. >> I think Karen to come back with something based on what we've said here tonight. Does that sound like a reasonable >> Joe? You're council elect. You're going to be voting on this input. >> I don't know. Is that direction? Are we
allowed to do that? Oh, can we go back to I mean, okay, that's all well and good and that solves both of these things trying to marry the thought, right? >> Can we then direct like a one-page document that says I'm a 5 acre bonafide
equestrian use with a residence >> or 4 point 4.7 4.7 acres or >> I will I will rent two RV slots for 27 >> affidavit. Um, I have a septic, a permitted septic. I have
>> go browns. >> And then do we charge for that or we just get them get people to start complying by showing up and saying, "I'm doing this." >> I I think we do charge a processing fee. I mean, that's just I mean,
>> $50 a slip, $20 a slip, $50 a spot, I think, is >> realistically, what's what's the what's the cost per slip right now? I mean, I'm not saying we're going to charge one month's one month rent about making money off of it. We're talking about covering staff's time to,
>> but I don't think $50 $50 cuts it. >> I I Yeah, I don't know. I think it >> again, it's about compliance, right? >> I know it's I know it's about >> the threshold has to be low to start. We have to see what the tolerance is, >> right? And once we get everybody to comply, then we can go after the egregious offenders more readily. And
maybe we also say I expect to have these RVs between these months. >> Tracy has some input. >> Nope. >> Green light. Tracy. >> Maybe you say I will have them between November 1st and April 30th >> roughly.
>> Yeah. Roughly. I mean I don't think we're going to >> I mean on the >> you know November one we're going to be or you know April 30 we're going to be out there >> renting and again there's a distinction between the lend you're rent. So, do you think money is a factor for a lot of people? If you did this and you
didn't charge people for very low fee and maybe more people would comply versus, okay, we're going to charge people 100 150 bucks to come comply. I think you'd have more that would >> that's not I get what you're saying, but you you do
realize that a lot of people are doing this as a supplemental income, right? I mean, I get it, whatever. But when you go to apply for a building permit, you're paying for all everything that you're paying for in your permit fee is to pay for review time, inspections, etc. It's all paying for staff time.
It's a cost recovery type of type of tool. It's not a money maker. It's not meant to put money in the coffers. It's meant to cover the cost of of of what you're doing. So yeah, if it's only going to take us 10 minutes to if we're just grabbing the thing and calling it a
day, >> okay, stamp, stamp, stamp, 50 bucks, okay, that's fine. But, you know, I mean, we're going to sit here and go, "Okay, 50 bucks." In a couple months, we're that's not covering the cost of it. We're >> not We're not covering the costing the cost. We're talking about a threshold of
compliance. If you make the bar low, see who's willing to send their little flea circus down to town hall and who's going to jump over the bar, right? And then the question becomes, okay, a year, two years down the road, yeah, this isn't cutting it. We need to raise it to 200 a
slot, right? Who complies then, right? It's about teaching people to come into compliance if they want to have and frankly this is not a right. This is this is something that is a convenience,
right? And and certainly for horses, having somebody there to help take care of a multitude of animals that might need care, right, through >> or even just by day or for somebody like me who has another full-time job, I have, you know, it it helps me to have somebody there to take care of the property,
>> right? So, at that point, then it becomes we look at it again, right? Consequences. These things got scratched out. Oops, bad. got to go back put some of these things back in place, right? So, I think going back to talking about when Todd
was on there and they came up with the program and it was so ownorous to comply and then we made it simpler, but then Miss Harding comes in and says, "I've jumped through all your hoops. Why are you showing back up at my gate? My gate." >> Right? So, you know, this way
>> you make it simple. You alert everybody. You don't say, "Oh, look, the equestrians are coming." you say, you know, the winter season's coming or it goes with the fiscal year or something like that. And on the form, these are the this basic things you have to state
and it's a simple fee to come in and state it and take up staff time to do it. >> I I agree. >> I think that we start there and then we reassess. Maybe the first year it's a huge hit and we end up being able to target the ones that are the the greater
offenders and you say, "Hey, listen. April 30th's coming. I said this person was going to be out of here. They're not. You know, you have to come down to town hall and and say why it's still there or why there's somebody still with a light on. >> So, if you're renting a spot, it's 50
bucks. Get your first slip. >> I think something like that. Yeah. >> Per slip. >> Whether you're renting your own or you're renting one that somebody else owns on that's on your property. You're rent till income for Yeah. So, when we talk about finances, is it a
way to make money? I get frustrated that I have no intention to have an RV on my property or ever will. I don't have one now, never have in 20 years, but my tax money is paying into this program to implement it, right? So, I'm spending six, we're spending $60,000 to implement
so my neighbor can have an RV. >> Well, the implementation came in enforcement. >> It wasn't just the enforcement. It's a It's the whole the the RV program is sucking money out of the town, right? We're spending 80,000. We're collecting 20,000. It's sucking $60,000 out of the
town. So, a select few can have RVs and that select few are the ones that are in compliance that we didn't have the issue with. It's it's craziness, you know. So, I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to myself, well, why did some of these things get struck through? Well, hate to
put you on the spot, but Anita, you signed have this struck through and and you know, any idea why? You remember why? Because you voted on this. >> Well, I think >> you remember why it was struck through,
why it was decided that a vacant parcel could have it? You remember why? >> No, I don't. I'm sorry. >> Probably related to >> Well, I mean, one of these things is no recreational vehicle shall be allowed on a parcel less than 1 acre. So that means if you own less than one acre, so everybody along Tangerine over here,
you're not even allowed to have it on your property period, >> whether it's personal use, whatever. >> Which is why the strike through one of the strike. >> Yeah, but we put that back in last. >> But you took out residence, >> right? So So it could be on a vacant
parcel. Now we're saying put it back in. So it's just I'm trying to figure out why it was taken out. >> Well, I I don't recall it being taken out. So that's why I'm a little bit I'm a little bit confused about these I I'm honestly sitting here telling you I am confused about these strikethroughs
because I would have never agreed to that. >> It's just frustrating that we go round and round and >> we're and then in two years is another council going to be sitting here and going we need to strike that through again. >> This may have been a signing before the
strikeouts. >> No, this was adopting the ordinance. So a a bad apple spoils the bunch, right? So I think that the intention was to allow >> Lockachi Groves to have an advantage
in the winter season to allow this to a segment of agriculture use. I'm spitballing because I wasn't there. I don't know what the original conversations were. Uh, and when
when that happened, did it escalate the number of RVs because of a use or did it just proliferate RVs because there was no code enforcement against RVs for the bad apples breaking the rules? >> Most likely that >> I think right.
>> Although there's always been I mean, as long as I've lived here, >> there's always there's always been places that have >> hurricane comes through you're like, what's that? >> Five or 10 hours back there. hidden back in the woods. And you know, that's the other thing, you know, again, we talk about compliance
>> set it off was that uh Seaw Road where they had 20 or 30 um high-end RVs in there and they had stuff going all over. I mean, that that's when this thing came
out of the woodwork. >> Okay. >> Well, and to Todd's point, that still comes down to code enforcement. Whether we allow RVs or don't allow RVs, you're still going to be code enforcing RVs and illegal campgrounds. >> I get it. Right. >> So, >> right.
>> Is this really the cost driver? It I think the way it was rolled out and in and the intensity, some people would argue it wasn't very intense, but the intensity did drive up the cost of administering the program. >> Make the program cheap to administer, make it easy for comply,
>> teach people to be compliant, and then reassess. Well, which is really a goal we need to have in everything because that's that's I mean we we tend to build a culture of non-compliance. >> Locket groves had the history of a huge history of it. >> Love it and leave it alone, >> right? Or it's easier to ask forgiveness
than to >> right ask. Correct. So according to this if you have over two acres between two and five acres you can rent two RVs if you're a use one RV if you're not a use
>> that was the old one the new >> that's the new page >> no that's the old and the new together I think the one on the left was what is existing and then what's it proposed >> that caught me too when they were doing it
>> yeah it says two to five acres is two RVs And then over on the on the new side, yeah, there's not really a line. The new side says no a use one RV. >> Yeah, that's the use. This one's simplified to the current less than two acres. >> Okay.
>> This is simplified to less than two acres, one two to five acres, two greater than 5 acres. >> He's he's looking at this. >> I'm looking at an easy chart. Oh, so >> there's actually an easier chart here because it's on the first page. It's kind of like >> if if the amount of RVs, we're trying to
limit the amount of RVs. We're trying to limit it because of the impact, right? The impact to the roads and all that sort of >> correct. >> How does the impact to the roads and all that change if you have bonafideed a or it doesn't? It doesn't. The impact is still the same. So then why does it make a difference if it's bonafideed a or a farm or anything else? Because the
impance, it's the same. The only thing it would change for is the A with majority use allowing one caretaker, >> right? That's the only thing that would change. >> Majority A. >> Majority A. So, >> you can't have and and all you get is the one caretaker spot that has to
caretaker, which then allows you to have the four RVs. You just get the one caretaker. >> And I think if it's getting one caretaker and that's a year- round thing, it has to have a septic >> and it has to have temporary power and it has to, you know, you're going to have to have some caveats. So, there's some building permit, which is kind of
hard because if you don't have >> you don't have a residence, >> how do you even get a permit for your fence? So, it's one of those sticky wickets. >> Well, >> cuz you know, >> I don't need a permit for my fence on egg. >> I know. Or on a farm. >> On a farm. >> On a farm.
>> On a farm. >> Whole big dumb. >> So, I mean, yeah. So, you know, you gota have temporary power. So, there there's stuff that's going to have to happen for that >> for the caretaker quarters. They some >> septic. No pump out. Septic, right? >> That makes sense. >> Yeah.
>> Temporary power. >> Okay. >> Because you're saying somebody permanently. >> Exactly. The car. >> They have to stay a legal septic. So people understand that, right? >> Yeah. Legally permitted through the Department of Health, the state of Florida Department of Health. You know, that that way you know it's
>> Does this help? I mean, does this help what we're suggesting or because this is a lot of roundy round. >> Go ahead. Go ahead. you have the >> I think as far as your question on whether it's bonafide um agricultural not you basically don't want whether it
be a 5 acre 10 acre 2 and 1/2 acre whatever okay where somebody has merely come out and bought a piece of property and now they're putting trailers on it >> correct >> so you would have to make it agriculture
they would have to somehow be agricultured which means they have to have animals or plants or birds or something out there on the property to allow them to have. And I'm thinking I've got five acres. If
I cut my five acres in half to two and a half and I'm looking at my two and 1/2 and I'm thinking you're going to put two trailers on that two and a half. Okay. I can't see that that is a decent setup.
maybe two two trailers on five acres. >> How do you subdivide your five acres into two and a half? >> I'm I'm just saying whether whether you do it I'm on the back of a 10 acre piece. So my five is is this one. Okay.
If I were to divide it this way to make it two and a half, >> but you can't legally do that. >> No, but I'm I'm just saying >> mine the visual part of it. >> Okay. >> Okay. If I divide it this way, my house is more on this side and then I'm going
to put two two trailers over here. I'm sorry. >> She's saying she doesn't like the aesthetic. >> I don't like the the aesthetic view. Now, if I put if I divide my property this way, you know, and have the two and a half acres that's in front of where my
house is, I still I still can't see it because right now on my property, not trailers, but I have boats and I have cars. And the reason why I originally bought over here in Locka Hatchee 46 years ago
was the fact I had the opportunity of buying a 5 acre piece over in Wellington back then or the 5 acre piece over here. Okay. Same person was going to sell it to me. So the terms and everything were
the same. When I started looking into what I could do in Wellington and what I could do in Locks Hatchee, Locks Hatche had my boat. I had three boats. I had a motor home.
Okay. And over there in Wellington, unless I put it inside a barn, I couldn't have those things on my property. And I don't care if it was a 20 acre piece and they were way the hell out in the back. I still couldn't put my
stuff which I owned on my property. Now I worked in this area. Um I did FedEx in this area. So there's a lot of places in Locks Hatche I never knew existed and and I know now where they are. And I've seen what you're talking
about. I've seen people that have 10 and 20 acres that at certain times of the year and and they weren't horse people. Okay. And I'm not a horse person, okay? But at certain times of the year, you'd all of
a sudden see 10 motor homes pull in. >> Mhm. >> And they were there and they didn't necessarily leave it in a clean order >> and they got FedEx deliveries. >> All of us got FedEx deliveries. They they didn't take care of the garbage.
There was a lot of things and I can I can point out several of those places right now. So when I heard that you were restricting um the number of sites, I think that's
great. I think two is a reasonable amount. I know people that are have farms out here. I know people that have horses. They have a trailer for their people.
Okay. Some of them are are in some of the trailers that they have are in storage when they're not here. They pull them out and set them up when they're when they are here. Okay. And I have no problem with that. But it's the it's the
part of somebody renting out a trailer either saying, "Okay, you can put your trailer or your RV here and you can stay here for three months, six months, whatever. You never know who is going to be there.
And there's been theft on the property next to where I live. And that person had people coming in and out all the time. Okay? I never knew who was supposed to be there, who wasn't supposed to be there. You can imagine
what it's like when you're in your yard or you're driving down your driveway and you look over and you see somebody that you have never seen before in your life. Well, a couple of them I literally stopped them and said, "Who are you? Show me your ID. Why are you here? What
are you doing here?" And believe it or not, after that, the person's property that this person was on, who had been given permission by a buddy who got it from a buddy who got it from a buddy who got it from a buddy, okay, >> subleting,
>> they lost a lot of expensive items, none of which were within my eyesight or any neighbor around, you know. So, it's a matter of you don't want strangers just being on the place.
And I think for anybody that is legitimate, there would be no problem at all about them giving you ID and giving you the details and >> of who they're like like what they do. They get a tag for a mo mobile home.
Every year you have to get a a tag at the tag office. Okay. I think you should be able to get some kind of sticker that this person has registered. And I think two would be the most as far as a a vacant lot, you know. No, I don't
think a trailer site should be there or an RV site should be there. I think if you got an acre and a half, it's too small. Two and a half acres is really too small. you know, to to have. But I think two
should be it. And I don't care if you have 10 acres or 20 acres. Two extra is all I think is reasonable. Okay. >> So, I think some of the smaller parcels became an issue when it expanded beyond.
Well, the equestrian shouldn't be allowed to have that alone, right? That this this was a benefit to just >> because we have some two and a half acre equestrian farms that count heavied, right, that count heavily on being able to rent out their RV.
>> I think we have smaller ones than that that have an RV on them as well. >> Um, and to her point that yes, I mean that's a problem. Uh, I I think that the
problem with policing who's in them is a bit of a problem. I mean, I would like to think if you have a residence there and somebody's in that residence that they know who's in that RV and that's okay with them. Um, obviously there's
certain behavior patterns in our culture that we make people register for if they've gotten in trouble. Um, and we they do show up in our town. And so that continues to be something with civil rights that the town has a hard time
actually narrowing the scope of is my understanding. Right. >> That is correct. >> So there's certain things we can't touch. So I'm not sure that would that would alleviate some of your concerns. >> We can approve the linear parks. That's >> that will that will go a long way towards us being able to not stop on
civil rights, but to say I'm sorry you can't live here because you can't live within 500 ft of a >> park lobbying push. >> So, how did it come to be? And that may have been when I was on council. This was proposed. I This did not pass when I was on council, but it did come to to be
proposed. The four on 10 acres was there. >> There was a huge outcry from people in town that they needed that they would go out of business, that they needed this for their business, that they needed this to support their equestrian business during circuit.
>> When you said there was a huge outcry, we had 3,300 people here. >> Well, no, not 3,300 people. A loud, let's say, a loud outcry, right? >> And that's what it was. It wasn't trying to accommodate everybody's needs. I mean, that's it. And again, what we approved was done for one year to come
back and relook at. And here we are relooking at it because you have to put something forward and you have to try something to see where you made your mistakes and and what needs to be fixed. So this is the tweak, you know, and as you can see, it's not an easy tweak.
It's not easy to figure it out. And there's, you know, people feel very strongly about there's a lot of people that feel very strongly like this lady does that you should have to register who's in your RVs, you know, that you that you should know. I mean, I think that I I believe to Lisa's point that
the requirement that there's a residence that the person's in residence and their residence, in other words, and knows that it can't be you own a farm that has a house on it and you live in New York and you're just renting out >> that that doesn't really work that you have to be like and so then that adds
another kurbuffle to this, right? How do you prove where the person actually lives? Does it have to be their homesteaded legal doicile to be able to have this this the RVs? I mean, you get what I'm saying, right? Because then because then because then your thing
comes to then then what you're saying is actual reality, right? Because you would want to be aware of who's on the property because the reality is folks are >> he really here to protect the residents and homesteaded and these are the people with the outcry of this is offsets my my cost,
>> right? I like as many of us many of us know that people people rent their houses out not necessarily maybe here >> to be your home property gets rented out for the >> homesteaded property. >> I know people that rent their homesteaded property out for six months.
>> Yeah. >> Talking to the mic so that it gets recorded. Dang. >> You don't have to stand up though. >> But you don't have to come any >> It's not that formal. You can just talk. No, just talk into the mic back there. But talk really into these. >> Okay. I apologize if somebody's already
said this. I got stuck on a work call and got here late. However, I would like to speak for those of us who have the horrible, god-awful non-conforming properties and don't have five acres. Again, if anybody wants to donate land to me to make me have more, happy to take it. But nobody has ever
>> I continue to pay the taxes. Sorry. That being said, Lisa, and answer to your question about the four on the on the larger parcels, my recollection because I was here for one of the big meetings when all this was getting changed and I
was one of the ones, even though we know I have horses, I don't have 10 acres. I could not for the life of me figure out and I was told by some of my friends I'm very wrong why anybody with a 10acre farm needs four RVs which house probably anywhere from two to four or five people
a piece to take care of a 10acre farm. I don't think anybody in this town has that scale of an operation but I had friends at the same meeting that told me I'm dead wrong. Okay, fine. What I do have an issue with, and sorry I don't agree with you,
somehow in that I lost my right to have an RV on my property because I am a non-conforming property and I am not pretending that I have a farm on my property. I have my personal horses. I grow a little garden in the back. I have goats. I have a few chickens. If I
wanted to fake it, I probably could. However, I don't. But again, this is meant to be for the residents. I don't understand why I can't use my RV that I can take and pay out to go by the lake to have somebody come and visit me and stay in overnight. Because right now, my
understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the only way I can have my RV on my property is if I promise nobody's ever ever ever going to stay in it. And I mean ever. And I think that's ridiculous that that I'm not allowed to do that, but my
neighbor can rent her house out, have a quote caretaker cottage RV, and then yet another RV. So on one property, actually smaller than mine, according to Papa, she's allowed to rent out her house and two RVs. But I can't even have my
daughter, when she was away at college, come home and say, "Hey, you know what, baby? You don't have to stay in the house with us. You can stay in the RV for a few nights." I don't even want to rent the thing. You talk about being for the residents. I think Leah Miller, if she was very vocal about this, too. Why can't she have it to have her father or
her cousins or whoever stay in it? >> We we did already cover that and we did say that that's okay. It's we're trying to make a distinction between renting and personal use. Okay, that would that would fall under personal use, which is fun. >> Stands. I can't have either. I don't
even want to rent it. I want to be able to to if his niece wants to come visit from Illinois, say, "Yes, we have a place. You can stay in our camper." >> We we've already said that you do that. >> I appreciate that. I I I started with I wasn't here for that. No, I know. And >> I don't think it hurts for people to
know that there are other opinions like that. >> Oh, 100%. Thank you >> to the 10acre horse farm and the four RVs. I never understood it then. I don't understand it now. Sorry all my friends who think I'm wrong. I I feel like yes, people with horse
barns have a right to make money, just like people with nurseries have a right to make money, but we also have a right to live without the added traffic of one farm that now has in addition to the borders, in addition to the resident that's half the time isn't even there.
And in addition to all that, now has another 10 to 20 people living in RVs. And I guarantee you most of them do not work at those farms. >> They just don't. It's a money maker. It's a hotel disguised as a because they happen to have horses on the property.
>> Yeah. And I think the even a moderate size when it's really six to eight that they sleep. >> I'm being kind. >> I'm being kind saying two to five, but yes, we all know that they're >> Yeah, they're made to sleep a lot more. >> They're they're made to absolutely see this a lot like a speed limit, right? The speed limit on Okobee is 30 miles an
hour. Nobody's doing 30, right? It's it's the egregious ones, right, that are doing 4550, right? If you have an RV and you say it's your personal RV and your daughter comes for a week and stays in it, that's not egregious. Nothing's going to happen, right? Code enforcement is going to come down. Even though the rules say that, nothing's going to
happen there, right? It's the egregious ones that are going to have an issue. >> Well, it depends on if you're >> I could get pulled over for 31 miles an hour on Okto Boulevard, but I don't think I'm gonna, right? I mean, I I set my cruise at 38, right? Nobody's doing 30. >> Dump your poop out on the ground. I mean
like there's so many things like you're not >> well and I think the homesteaded will will alleviate some of that home of it. >> Yeah. I mean reality is there are people that rent their homesteaded house out for 6 months and they go stay with relatives or whatever. >> Don't say that too loud. Property
appraiser says that 30 days. >> Listen it it it happens. It happens here. It happens across the canal. You know we see it all the time. Right. It's it it happens. >> Well they may be calling you for some names. >> No don't know names. They just know what happens. >> Okay. Um,
>> Cassie's got something, but >> sorry, Cassie. >> Go ahead, Cassie. >> So, Anita and Marg, you may remember this. I did find that >> they did have the discussion about the RV on vacant land, but it was a flat no. The only discussion it came out was it
would be allowed if there was a site plan, approved site plan, and you there was going to be a >> See, that's why I don't understand why that struck out. how it made it into whatever it is. It was talked about only being allowed if there was an approved site plan and there was a grace period of like one or two years. >> Right. Yeah.
>> This case it's a use >> to your point by a >> but I think we've we've nailed that down with the >> the homeity of the property. >> There's a there's a couple things that I just wanted to just before we run out of time. So, if I can just move to this and
then we can I just want to remind everybody that the um Southern Boulevard corridor study meetings are occurring at Palm Beach State College on Saturday, March 28th from 10 to 2. There will be a roundt discussion which will have facilitators
at the tables and and get a lot of ideas. For those who can't make that, there'll be more of a town hall style meeting, which is more of a kind of audience participation kind of meeting that's happening Monday, March 30th, also at Palm Beach State College from 5:30 to 8:00. Um, both of those events
will be followed by an online survey survey, which will be the final opportunity for the public to chime in. Of course, you can always chime in at council meetings, but that'll be that'll be the final formal opportunity for the public to chime in. So, please everybody get to as many or all of these as you
can so we can get all of your ideas heard. Yes, Tracy >> livereamed. >> Uh, I I do not believe so, but I'm not saying no. But I do not believe so. I can certainly make a request, but I'm just not sure whether Palm Beach State
College is since it's being done not at our place that if it was being done here, obviously we're set up for that. >> 30th is here. It is not. It's all at Palm Beach State College. >> Um, but I will um I will ask that question. >> I'm sure they're going to be recording
it. I think the idea is is so they can get more information feedback from the residents. >> So when they come with that that final report that we can either accept, part of, none of, whatever, or deny, you know, that they have some more
information. So yeah, if >> I mean >> well you can participate in the online too afterwards. So make sure that you're um >> email address is registered so you can participate in that. Okay. Um and obviously you can always you could always if you have something like formal
that you want to write up or something like that with your ideas, you could always leave it here at town hall and they would get it to the consultant treasure coast. I I don't know if you just have some ideas that you think are important to share then you can definitely get them to us. leave them, have them leave it in my box and I'll make sure that Treasure Coast gets them.
Um, the other thing I just want to let everybody know is that we got the FEMA storm water master plan project grant today. It's a $240,000 uh project. The federal share that we got is $180,000 from FEMA, from the
federal government. Our local share will be $60,000. And of course, council will be voting on accepting that or not accepting it. Um, but this is something that we've uh worked pretty hard at trying to get um because it's it's a storm water master plan. It's looking at
the entire town water quality, how we do how we do our dra how our drainage works or doesn't work, how our structures are. I mean, it's the it's the it's the next step in trying to get some federal money to help us fix some of these major structures and issues that we have. But
we have to do this study first. So, it is >> being shovel ready. >> It's part of being shovel ready. Um, but it also I'm excited because it also includes water quality assessments as well as looking at flood planes and everything. So, um, it it's pretty cool. Um, it's pretty exciting. And so, those
were the kind of just the two business things that I just wanted to make sure were out there. Do you Does everybody feel comfortable that we've pretty much ironed out any I mean, for the moment? Again, it's something that has to be relooked at later that if we give all of this to to Karen, then we can look at it
again. one I mean obviously before we vote on it we'll look at it one more time if not two more times to see if there's anything else that needs to be tweaked but >> so residents homesteaded same same numbers at this possibly reducing the max from four to two >> possibly >> okay
>> um if it's it has to have a residence and it has to be homesteaded same setbacks as a house >> correct >> right um possible reduction down to two a >> no no sticker or anything required but an affidavit, >> a simple form with with a simple
>> how many you're renting? I guess how many acres >> and do we need to have an affidavit for people who who who don't only if you're renting. This only applies if you're renting. >> If you're renting >> Yeah. >> Um a basic charge of 50 a spot to start,
the dates that the slots are going to be available for rent and how you handle the waste. >> That would be far waste and the electric farm. Hold on. I haven't gotten there yet. >> The waste and the electric because it's my understanding that that fire on C road started with an electric cord plugged into that RV.
>> And then if it's a caretaker, groom's quarter or construction. What does construction refer to? Nobody lives in a construction trailer. >> I think it refers to >> if your property is under construction, you are allowed to have a temporary residence, >> right? If you're if if one if you're building a house.
>> Okay, I got it. >> Yeah, >> but it's not like a mobile home. I got it. I know somebody who did it >> actually attach so it would be one year build um and for that
>> obviously that doesn't apply to the egg right but the caretaker and the groom quarter and it has to be a majority and the majority is what percentage of the property >> we say 80 >> I I I think 75 or 80 I >> what's our majority three out of four right
>> well majority is anything over 50% right you I'm going to say 51. >> I think I say 75 or 80. I I think it's a good number. 75 or 80% of the property is being used as a farm. >> It's got to be 75 or 80. Not 75 to 80. I'm happy with 80. I think it should be
a lot. I think it should be as well. At least if you're truly using it for a farm. >> Now, there's one I can think of that, you know, has some cows on it and just like, you know, and >> they can have one. >> They have one caretaker >> with a septic >> with a septic. Not a pump out.
>> Oh, 80%. >> The construction can have a pump out though >> with septic and temp electric, >> but it has to be permanent as well. >> Permanent electric. Yeah. >> Yeah. The building department becomes involved when you talk about the caretakers. >> Okay. That's what I got notes wise.
>> And so we probably because the building and part department Well, there'll be fe there'll be permits associated with that. That will cover those costs. I just want to make sure it's not costing us money to Todd's point. >> Yeah. >> So, we're going to have to go back and bring this ordinance. We're going to bring an ordinance back for this. Yeah. These changes. >> Yep.
>> I think that's a good kickoff though. It's a good starting point. Are you raising your hand, Cass? Oh, Mr. Austin. >> No, I was going to say I I agree. It's a good starting point. Lowhanging fruit, but the thing is got to go after the most egregious people first. >> Oh, yeah. >> And um also, I'm noticing a lot of tiny
houses popping up on our town. If you drive around, you'll see them putting tiny houses. They're not mobile homes. They're tiny houses. And you still can go on Facebook and everything and see them advertising lots that are like she mentioned, you don't know who they are. They're just renting lots to people to come stay in Lockachi Grove. So
>> I saw somebody saw somebody uh looking to rent a tent site. So I I get what you're saying. >> Yeah. Well, there's somebody out there that actively advertising RV sites. Yeah. So on RV >> pages,
>> Mr. Building Man, what is it about tiny homes? What makes them different? >> Tiny home. >> They're still on a trailer. >> Yes, they're on a trailer. Um, they do have tires. >> They aren't they RVs? >> There's a couple things. No, they're not RVs. Um, they're they're different than
mobile homes. >> Florida building code, right? >> Yeah. To me, there's a Florida building code for a tin for a tiny home. Whereas a mobile home isn't built under the Florida building code. It's actually built in a plant that is inspected by state inspectors. It's a DOT certified
um structure trailer. >> These are mobile homes. >> Mobile home. >> Okay. >> Tiny homes kind of fall in. >> Explain to me the difference between a mobile and a manufactured. >> We don't have enough time. Mobile home and a manufactured home. Manufactured home is is is a fixed to a foundation.
>> Okay. >> Yeah. Like a modular home. >> Hold on. I'm I'm getting to Mr. Austin's point. >> Those are those are fixed to a foundation. >> A tiny home has to be a fixed to a foundation. >> That's not a >> No, no, You're talking about can we make that a rule? >> No. >> No, we can't make that a rule. >> No, I don't I don't know how you find an
engineer anywhere that's going to fix that to a foundation. >> Well, then they can't be here. >> Explain explain. >> Well, I I that's something that has to be researched. I don't know why why we can't have tiny homes, but I mean I
guess understand you question. I I understand it's a density question, but if I buy if I buy if I buy 20 acres today and I just want to be a hermit and I want to live in the middle of the woods on 10 acres, right? And I want 20 acres and I want to have a tiny home as long as I have proper power and proper
septic, who are you to say to how big my home is? >> Well, it's actually it's actually less density, right? So if you 400 foot tiny home, >> but I don't think >> as opposed to a 15,000 foot with eight bedrooms. >> Tiny home. >> Yeah, I Yeah, he's he's saying they're pulling them in >> residences. They're used like RVs.
>> They're like RVs. That's not >> That's a no no. >> That they those should be permitted structures and should be accessory dwellings, which we do have a code for the amount of You're making my point. Thank you. >> Yeah, we have a code for the number of accessory dwellings. Well, >> that's the next thing we get to go. Tiny homes are accessory dwellings. They're
not. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing saying that you couldn't make a tiny home into >> be straight now that we'll go after tiny homes next. >> We've already covered the tiny homes. It's auxiliary dwelling. We have a limit. >> Yeah. There's nothing saying you couldn't make you couldn't have a tiny home for an for a mother-in-law's
quarter or whatever. Or accessory dwelling, but you know that we're we're releg we're require what's the word I'm looking for? Yeah, we're relegated. how many how many uh dwellings that you can have on a certain size property. Yeah, regulated.
Thank you. >> Couldn't spit that. Yeah, I know. Thank you. I couldn't spit that out. Thank you. But yeah, so >> a tongue twister. >> It is. >> All right. No, I I think this is good. >> A good spot. >> All right. >> And I agree. It still comes down to code enforcement, right? And to Todd's point,
code enforcement is irrelevant of the RV thing if people are breaking the rules, right? So, but I also understand the de facto density and I understand the concerns about who's who's in those things. >> Well, and there's there's also currently I don't know where, who, whatever, so
I'm not speaking of any specific case, but I know there's a measurable number of cases that are out there against these egregious RV parks that are >> illegal campgrounds. >> illegal campgrounds that are happening. So, it's being worked on. I know. I
know. >> Do you want me to type these up? I know the the High Park folks don't like to hear this because, you know, it takes time, right? It's not a >> I know. I know. I know. >> Sorry to say it again, Robert. I I really am. You know, I am. So, I I think we're moving in a good direction,
though. I mean, it's it's >> you know, it it the the more teeth we can give certain things, the better. And >> I do want to help the residents, though. I think the point is is not harassment, >> but you know, creating a
>> a revenue stream for people that that could possibly use it without overburdening roads, the garbage stream, etc., etc., staff. Okay. Motion to adjurnn. >> So moved.
>> Are we supposed to go to eight? We don't have to. There's nobody else. >> Anything else you want to talk about so we don't Motion to adjurnn. >> So moved. >> All in favor. >> Thanks everyone.
>> Thanks Anna. >> Yes, wherever she is. >> Thank you Anna. Come running out to turn it off. >> I know, right? >> There she is. Thank you as always. My god, they're