to go live you are live so if you want to call the meeting to order call the uh ulc February 10th meeting to order all rise for the pledge Al to the flag the United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one nation under
God indivisible with liberty I will do roll call um Brian zanowski um Karen plant Paul Coleman here
Joe ceciliano and Robert Austin here you have a quorum all right uh next item on we're going to call for the approval of the agenda do I have a motion make a motion to approve second second minus the misspellings of my name everywhere that'll be on the approval of the minutes um on the agenda all those in favor I I
post motion carries 5- Z next item approval of the minutes is there any discussion on the minutes believe Mr janowski's name was spelled wrong in a couple places it was a very good try and I'm used to it so it doesn't bother me but if you wanted be we will yeah we we will make the corrections and it'll be uh council member Z yes so I'll call for a motion to approve the minutes with
the corrections second moved and seconded all in favor I opposed motion carries 5- Z okay uh the next item on the agenda is public comments I don't see anyone um so Mr chairman there are no public comment cards uh with that we could move on the regular agenda with no public comments when move on to the regular agenda our continued review of
the rule Vista guidelines yes um what you have in your packages uh is a draft uh of how the rural Vista guidelines um would be adopted I have not tried to put in section numbers or those kind of things this is how it would uh read um uh what I would like to do is go over that with you um tonight if
if you have not had a chance to um to review it um if you want to take a few minutes to go through it real quickly um or uh I can just go through the outline with you uh the intent of this is to uh hopefully get this document into shape so that it can be moved forward um it would not surprise me and
it would not offend me if there are uh amendments to it um but what we would like to do is see if we've captured all of the the comments um gotten this into a form that people can understand uh there may be some things that would should be highlighted with exhibits um but move this forward uh put it into ordinance form and have
a review by our plan uh folks and get it in front of uh the council for adoption um and that may be uh I I'm hoping that this document is far enough along that that's a reasonable request that we might be able to accomplish that tonight but that is up to uh the committee as to whether or not they think it's uh sufficient to move forward okay I have one question
before we start just for clarity do we rewrite the original document or is this just is this some added verbiage what do we what do we do um are you writing a new document yeah what what we did with with this is we tried it is a new document um it incorporates many of the same points that were in the original
document it tried to set forth uh standards that were explicit enough so that people could understand what was required and prohibited um and in some areas uh for example on lighting we didn't go into the lighting that much because the original document when you look at it it's got pictures of things
but it really didn't go into uh a style uh per se and the lighting and the parking requirements are in other sections of the the code AS is the Landscaping so there are some things in landscaping especially that we kind of highlighted because we talked about it and wanted to make sure that those things are are taking in into consideration but we did
not in this particular document refine those code sections if this if this is adopted um by the the council there may be code sections that need to be revised um in those other areas to um make those code sections compatible with this document all right I think Joe has a question yeah so in the future
if if this is the format in which we're going to receive this it would be helpful if you could say from where you're drawing this or because I've gone back and forth between the neighborhood plan and code and it's really not this is just a bunch of words like I don't know where I don't know where to find this to say what we've what we're improving or changing or do you see I mean this is all new well what this
where it would go where would it go you know what I mean this would go this is new what this what this document um is an attempt at doing is to put what we had there which was pictures and examples of things and um into into words so that somebody could follow along and see um what the actual
guidelines were so where this is derived from is it is derived in part from that document um it is derived from your comments at these meetings Okay um and that's the the derivation of it how it will fit into the the ulc um has not quite yet been decided um there are two ways to to do it
um one is uh to create a a section in the ulc itself rural Vista um design standards and and guidelines and stick this in as these are the standards that um are applicable another way of doing it is to say that rural Vista
guidelines um are to be adopted by resolution and the resolution would adopt this document what you need to do what we have failed to do in the past is formally adopt those guidelines um and uh you can do it in in either either manner the advantage of uh the advantage and disadvantage of putting it into ordinance form is that
it then then takes two readings to modify uh a standard um or guideline um the advantage of having an ordinance say that we are going to adopt these by resolution is that then you can come back and make modifications by um on a resolution without the advertising formalities of an ordinance okay because a lot of this we did
there is an ordinance for and that's 2015-07 and we did this with the ulc on know another lifetime um parts of these are 2015 oh there it is two15 yeah 2015 wow well I just I I just want I'm sorry I just I just want to make sure that that I mean if we're we're I like where we're going with this I really do but I but it like to
Paul's point I think is what he's trying to say is if we put this in the rur Vista guidelines then we say this is what you have to follow and then we have to go housekeeping on the on the ulc that was kind of the what what we were talking about last time was that this is a guideline it doesn't specify Dimension etc etc because it's not the code the code is what defines the dimension and if you recall that's why I think that's one reason why the the
sign code is up for discussion tonight is because I said I think we can do two things at once right and and you know but then Jeff point out that we were also under the direction of council so we can't just go off on our own tangent right and say we're going to start doing this this and this um so my my my whole thing is is and I I understand what you're doing um as far as you know trying to write a whole new document um
I just we had a base document and I thought we were improving upon the base document which meant we were going to alter That Base document slightly to include some of the more descriptive stuff for lighting Landscaping Etc right and that we were codifying that existing document as it's been amended you know you understand what I'm saying so when I got when I got this and I was that's why I say when I was scanning through I'm looking for like red lines where and I'm like wait
a minute this isn't the same document I was I was expecting like we struck this or we read you know similar to when you when you read a a code section and when they adopt a new code section they've changed something you know anything that's been changed in that six volume digest is in red right you actually I think get a publication of only the things that have been changed but you know so now we we have this so now we had to compare this to the old one to make sure that
we're following suit because I think all of us agreed that that was where we were wanting to go so you follow what I'm saying Joe I I do I I do and you know um much of the the there's a there's a lot of pictures in the r in the existing rural Vista guidelines yeah I just thought those were going to kind of you maybe might instead of being on page five it was going to be on page six cuz some more verbiage was added those were
examples I thought we were going to update the photos to give better examples or whatever I think we had discussed that last time that it would you know updating the photos because some of the photos were you know from what 30 years ago when this when the r Vista guidelines were put together yeah and and most of them aren't from this immediate area right which I mean we're not trying to be like exactly like the immediate area so I mean you know that I mean those were pulling I mean the
architectural uh you know the elevations of buildings and things like that were from all over the place we had some from Jupiter we had some from weren't even from around here right right you know and and I get that um I guess I thought we were amending an existing document to be able to codify that document into the code whether it be by ordinance or resolution I I understand what you're saying the processes or processes whichever you prefer um you know and and having to
if you wanted to amend something down the road that depending on how you adopt it today would dictate how those adjustments had to be made whether it was you know you have to advertise and you have to do two readings and then it has to be you know brought forth um you know so I you know that way I I think whichever way puts it as part of the Cod man I'm popping like crazy sorry um I think whichever way makes it part of the
code I mean I I Envision this as a standard within the code that was referenced say you know if if you're in the code and you're talking about the architectural design which you go into down here and Joe's got a ton of notes and posts and I think if we start yeah you know she'll be able to just hit hit what she's got along the way and anybody else but I think you know that was kind of what I was envisioning when we left last week was it was going to be you know cuz like if you were talking about
you know the AR design of of a commercial building and what was required as far as you know either Dormers or you know different changes in elevation uh to the front of the building you know then it would say refer to appendix X or a or whatever to the rule Vista guidelines which are the standard that we go by you know something along you know you know you understand what I'm saying I I do to a certain extent but I that uh much of what you're saying this document was an attempt
to do that if you it is if you wanted to go back to the original and we can start striking things I mean there's uh what I'd suggest is we walk through this you know um and you know perhaps the simplest way is to to start off with the comments or or questions um and then we can move forward the uh it was an attempt to make it you know
straightforward and uh you know uh try to Define some of the things that we see in language okay I'm okay all right let's get started I mean I that's I was just trying to no no I well let's voice my vision yeah or whatever so let's do the let's do the review and uh we can um we can see
what needs to to be amended okay no pride of authorship here guarantee you that oh okay well I'll just start it out if that's all right because um I think so so I don't have any problem with the first couple of sentences all the way down develop of commercial Civic uses on property is necessary for stain sustainability of any Community but such development should be wellmaintained and
invoke thoughtful Design Concepts that will enhance and maintain the town's desired rural nature I mean those are words that I put in you know not it's not just maintained because there are places that maintenance isn't going to cut it and um so all right it what if if we if we could for for clarity because there was I was reading along and I was I was thinking
okay we're down to the third paragraph but then you're telling me or the third sentence and then you're saying you put some words in there so why don't we focus on on those if this is if this first paragraph is generally acceptable as a a vision um and then could just from a scrier standpoint it'll be easier for me to to follow um okay so in the first paragraph the first
sentence is okay first sentence is okay second sentence okay development of commercial this a long one uh and Civic uses on the property is necessary for sustainability of any Community but such development should be well planned and invoke thoughtful Design Concepts that will enhance slash maintain so you want enhance and maintain and or because like I my
thought is that there are plenty of properties out there that maintenance is not sufficient um the town's desired I don't know the desired natural rural nature or just I think we just leave it the rural nature the town R in there and it becomes you know that's more emphatic I think okay okay um so just a just a quick thing before the next sentence that starts
with develop development should take into consideration an attempt to preserve um is this going to is this where this a landscape site plan is where the where this is where this is coming is this where a l a landscape plan is important do do we demand that all developers submit a a landscape plan
yes okay and and and and a criticism of some past development I think um is that there might have been opportunities to maintain existing canopy and then enhance or expand upon that with landscaping and uh there are if you
look at if you look at the Town um this these regulations would apply to um commercial Civic institutional development um it doesn't apply to residential development it doesn't apply to Agricultural Development so when you look at the
where there is the existing or potential of those type of uses it's primarily in two areas along uh Southern Boulevard um you know there there maybe you know we're not going to get into a discussion of how far back but along Southern Boulevard there's the opportunity uh for that and okachobee and while okachobee is not zoned at this point in time
for commercial uses what you have is you have institutional uses that uh predominate where you would see development that's churches schools daycare um centers those kind of things um and you know to the extent possible when you get into uh governmental uses so those are the two areas that you in when
you deal with this you think about what's there um and so there may be places there may be places that would be subject to development in the future or Redevelopment where you say they've already got a nice canopy but but who decides that it's nice I mean are we having an arborous come in are these 7,000 year old trees are going to fall down next week and and so they're going to leave them and then when down
then then we have no recourse to this is kind of maybe that's for another day well the I I think here the the issue generally in a if you're trying to maintain the the rural look and you know there's a bunch of uh there's a bunch of language in the compant about maintaining the existing canopy is the assumption
is that the existing canopy is good and worthwhile to preserve okay now there's exceptions where you've got invasives or non right non-native in there and that's something that um you deal with but if you've got if you've got a canopy the idea is we're not just when you go in and develop don't just rip it all down because that's the easiest way to
develop the the property and then replant uh with fine types of trees that are going to look mature in 15 to 20 years because you already had mature canopy that with a little foresight you could have designed around and kept that's the
thought pattern behind that that is expressed in the existing rural um Vista guidelines you know that and it is uh in our comp plan um and so that I think that the way what you're trying to get at is that yes that's somewhere else this is pointing toward that that
the the know the wording the consideration and attempt to preserve and maintain the existing canopy that points to that aspiration I hate to use that word in this room the the the the the that we want to you know maintain and and and keep as much of the original canopy as possible I think in the application process not to go down a rabbit hole but in the application process yes a site plan any any commercial development because that's what we're talking about whether talking in stitution no matter
the use any commercial development um you have to provide you have to provide a site plan I don't care if it's an acre I don't care if it's 50 yet there's some sort of site plan that's provided because you have parking Etc you have Plumbing sewer lines things like that that come in so and they give us they are they give us um the existing information as to what is on the on the site so I was getting there yeah so
so that I think that part is covered okay when you get when you get down the road okay but as long because as long as in my understanding a tree canopy is not really a tree canopy if you have one nice Live Oak and 15 um invasives because they're going to be like well I only have to say the Oak and so now we've demolished a treat canopy because we've took out invasive but it doesn't say anything about that the invasives have to come out understand that but it doesn't say anything about replacing the tree canopy do you see saying I see
what you're saying I think that we've lost trees but we haven't this this just says maintain I think that's the words preserve and maintain I think 0 two yeah okay I I I get I I see your note okay yeah I I I I get where you're going but I think in in just in jargon and terms okay preserve and M maintain all right you know point that direction okay yeah this is and and
um points that Paul has made in in the past this is um guideline standards and guidelines with respect to to design it is not the Landscaping ordinance um and so what it what it's what it's saying there basically is if you've got some tree canopy let's take that into consideration in the in the design okay um and if if you had you know if you
had a maybe maybe if we maybe we added the word viable in existing viable tree canopy you or something along those lines you understand what I'm saying so like to Joe's point they don't go oh well you know the canopy was made up of uh Brazilian pepper Holly maluca and we have one Live Oak it's here have a nice day I think it it creates a a kind of a more of a guideline that that you're
going to restore some of the canopy um and that would might that might cause from some debate down the road yeah you follow what I'm saying je yeah I um I mean because if if we paint too bro I I I know I've preached over here that we don't want to be so specific as to in this document as to size of BMS and things like that but I think if we use to Broad of a brush right you f I think the inent needs to be needs to be
kind of spelled out a little bit you know what I mean for our own protection okay so um you know as well as I do can go 20 different ways right yeah stick in viable between yeah that's a it's a good one but that's okay something along those lines think yeah um okay I have a question about the word should it
feels very um flexible I I feel like there should be a better word that says will sh should makes me feel like well that's exactly what it does no I mean I I that's exact should points this document I just want to exit all out me me too and I did yeah sh sh take I can tell you that there's a multi-million dollar Federal contract that I dealt with last last year
and literally the word should paved an entire project in the Department of Veteran Affairs because the lawyers for the Department of Veteran Affairs saw the word should and took it as I don't have to so if you're adamant about that definitely change for that that's that's that's exactly how it's taken in any code document I've ever seen if you have the word should it's it's it's a
choice a choice it's it you know shall yeah so when you use the word that's more ticated so when I when I read this I like a lot of everything in here I noticed the word should as well as an option but my main thing when I was reading this I was picturing these things in my head and and unfortunately picturing some of the places that have been developed recently and not to pick on anyone but if you look at Tom Beach State College they they maintained a lot
of slash pine and in where they're developing right now they're putting up a lot of cabbage poms large cabage boms so that's native native trees where again I don't want to pick on anyone but it's an example that's here Culver's Wawa the car wash I don't know what kind of trees those are I'm not an arborist but I've never seen those trees naturally occurring in our town our town is slashpine Live Oak things like that
um the the the strip of vegetation that they put in front of that that that from Culver's down to Wawa is one it's very thin you you can just basically see right through it but it's certainly not what I would it's certainly I'm sure it's native plants but it's not lockah hatchee loah hatchee to me is Live Oaks slashpine cabbage Pals things like that and again I don't I don't know if that's code you know
if if if um directing which native trees and strawberri should be put in is more code then has nothing to do with this but that's my observation when I was reading it and then picturing what we have there's there's a list yeah it's not specific to loide you gr is is n Florida Florida natives yeah yeah that's why you see a lot of cabbage Palm stuff like that where coconuts came in I don't know but or Queens yeah that's not yeah of
one point so yeah I I and Paul I just want to ask this and I'm Pro it's probably not the correct meeting for this but um obviously this is talking about maintaining um and to no fault of their own of course Culver's lost their entire uh fronts vegetation to the tornado who's responsible for ensuring that they replant that that buffer with u native vegetation again because it's been at this point it's been what four months and it doesn't appear that
they're making any effort to replant the the the required buffer out front um the the town does that through a code enforcement process I I I given the the code priorities I'm confident and confident in saying that that is not reached a priority level at this point but yeah you your point is good though it's not this meeting but I
will tell you that the the truck has moved and the the vegetation that was lost due to the truck has been replaced okay well exactly there was it was I again it was grass and a shrub a hedge a shrub hedge there and three and three Live Oaks that are not where yeah but not where the truck was put I guess to my point yeah yeah yeah and I think um Brian's Point wasn't uh uh I I
thought you were referring to the damage from the tornado yeah my point was there's work being done so yeah and and the tornado impact uh we would give them more more grace than in some other areas because but yeah my my main point was I definitely when I was reading this I can picture what this is talking about obviously looking at the pictures in our rural Vista now plus seeing what we have here so I think the idea is very good I just um I just want to make sure in whatever
the appropriate place is we we um force it upon the development yeah I I agree I mean I mean the building design shall be residential yeah in scale right I mean we have a height requirement um not to skip ahead but I thought I saw something about height I think it was a buffer yeah some some mentioned about height oh 50 ft uninterrupted building elevat oh that yeah that was sorry that
was 50 feet horizontally of uninterrupted building elevation is what that was am I reading that correctly yes yes yeah but all right so so The Pedestrian yeah sorry I didn't mean to skip ahead Joseph if I could just because uh from a drafting standpoint the rule is right now that I understand from the the committee is shall instead of should everywhere unless there's somewhere that you see
that you think it's pertinent that it should be hold on that you it should be and if they don't agree they can pipe up I would say change every should to shall unless there's something where you think that shall doesn't pertain and then you can highlight that and say hey guys this is why I don't think so good yep all right cool so the next sentence the one starting with pedestrian and equestrian amenities in my mind is a little grammatically incorrect because pedestrian amenities such as walkways Trails
porches and benches I don't know any equestrians that would use um porches or benches I just think it should be another sentence pedestrian amenities such as walkways trails and I think crosswalks should be in there porches benches boardwalks instead of instead of such as um we'll put including or you just strike out and equ pedestrian strikeout equestrian amenities
such as walkways Trails crosswalks bench I I added crosswalks porches benches board walks and I put covered Gathering areas because you have outdoor Gathering areas or I don't know if it's supposed to be covered and then I wrote shall be incorporated into development projects when possible new sentence would be equestrian amenities shall be incorporated when and where possible because like I don't yeah none of I was lazy H you
were lazy he's admitting it was lazy take it take the win take the win take move on no I mean I some of the questioning stuff you want you know they were talking about um Hitching Post T TPA couple weeks ago whatever they were talking about how the different designs that are involved when you talk about equestrian you know horses crossing a road versus just solely pedestrian and things like that I think you know but I I'm with you we take the equestrian out of there then we can add
you know equestrian Med shall be incorporated when and wherever possible or exactly okay yeah even if they are you know two hitch and posts in the middle of the backyard then on some little at 7-Eleven I'm still yeah I'm still I'm still waiting for someone to use that hitching POS at 7-Eleven and see if they survive I'm surprised my buddy on C Road hasn't done it yet he's the one he's the one that ties up in front of Boonies all the time yeah um he just
used the bike rail yeah the bike rack so you got the question one Jee yep good with that I said Jee I want to make sure you got yeah all right Co yes SC scrier so I'm running down I'm running down to to the next uh the bottom of the site design number one uh land uses pedestrian connections between developments preservation of native vegetation storm water mitigation should
that be retention I don't and and Wildlife movement can be achieved assuming storm water mitigation you're talking about flood water mitigation the storm water mitigation SL retention Etc that all is kind of tied in okay because those retention areas are all part of this like but do that what it means storm water mitigation is retention or do we need yes retention detention Etc is all part Jeff correct me if I'm wrong is all part of mitigating storm water run behind Wawa and
correct yeah yeah R you know that's that's what that's kind of area what they're talking about okay how to move it and how to get it to where it's got to go okay correct but I think yeah this it's you know exterior lot lines uh wait where when the land adjacent to exterior lot lines is kept free from development development a variety of design OB objectives including screening yeah so like screening in between
incompatible uses right that's kind of a building code thing too they can only have so much separation Etc so you know this is all talking about you know screening between properties and things like that we just I just guess we need to make sure that we all like what we have in the code for screening that's this is that's where we're going this is step one and then then because diving in section by section and and and when we get to the the standards here there is a a new standard um
that we're talking about implementing uh as a part of this and that is uh the screening or buffer area um adjacent to the uh adjacent to the roadways um right instead you know that was a discussion that we had uh at the last meeting about how the 25 feet um of landscaping doesn't really cut it uh and yeah when you showed us
the examples compared to when you showed us real life it obviously it's a little harder than and so that's where we're we're putting this in and there's two standards uh one for five acres or less which is 35 feet and then uh developments on 10 acres or or more would be 50 foot what what's the current code say because we adopt this today say we adopt this today and it goes to it goes to Council on Tuesday which I know is not happening but just argument sake and
this was my argument when when 25 is the current standard okay so you adopt this today right and it doesn't meet the code the codee's something different well I mean this is my point though you you you we're putting measurements in here right right that contradict the code I know that I mean I know we're supposed to use the most restrictive right so this would be the most restrictive well there's uh not necessarily what we have what you
have is when you have a new ordinance right and there'll be a conflict clause in the in the ordinance the standard ordinance language and it'll say you know to the extent there are conflicts this ordinance rules um and okay and so so you're saying it's quicker to put it in here and have it in here than to wait to Def redefine the you put it in here for
for two reasons right okay first of all uh you this is the document that is next up in front of council and coun Council we will point out to them that this is an expansion over the existing standard we're not going to make an assumption at this point in time that that's going to to be adopted um so in the discussion and the process of going forward assuming that Council
would adopt this we' say we need to then come back and make it consistent so that it's not difficult for people but in the interim while we're doing that newest document wins on a conflict okay newest document wins on a conflict as long as it's pointed to yes if there that's just my fear you you understand I mean you understand my fear right yeah you got two code you
got two code sections sitting out here on opposite ends of the Earth yeah right and this planner for Joe Mo decides that oh we're going to use this one over here because and nobody remembers that even though it was the most recent one you you understand no I know that's my concern and that's why I say that's why I say what we would the intent of that would be if this is adopted that we
go up and eliminate the conflict and bring the other section um and make it compatible with this that's what you try to to do I get that I just want to make sure that this is the this is the focus document if we're going to do this and we're going to add dimensions in here and create two places where there's dimensions and I understand that you know mo the most string it wins out with due to revision and Etc I understand all that I just want to make sure that this is you know when somebody's coming forward they're like
here this is page number this is document number one right well basically you know what I'm saying yes and that would you understand my fear I I do and and there are those protections and the AL the ultimate Safeguard is you make it consistent okay because we already have I'll get off my question about am yes what's happening
between five and 10 acres what that is that's a that's a really good question and and the intent the intent was that 42 Jeff was being lazy again no no you know some sometimes sometimes the mine doesn't doesn't work um and and uh the intent was that on five acres of or more
um it would jump to on more on more on more than four it should be more than five acres so there's a c no there's just two should be five five acres five acres or less 35 more than five acres you go to the the 50 Feet I think what my mind my gymnastics was was you know I was thinking typical de development and how we go
from 5 to 10 um but uh there are some in betweeners there are there are um and and and most of you know yeah and that's that's something you know make sure that you all are comfortable that that should be the dividing line and it it shouldn't be at 10 or less yeah I
agree yeah so um so okay and then two just so everybody understands it that goes to the idea that um you're you're GNA have this you're gonna have this buffer and then the um building would be set back
at least 25 feet from the buffer area unless somebody came up with an which would be kind of an Innovative design and said I'm going to incorporate the um the building area um right right up against that and and have my parking in back so that's the incentive too communal Gathering area yeah you know I'm gonna I'm G to throw I'm going to throw my and we're gonna have a definitions paage right right
so I mean a gathering area isn't your outdoor seating for Sonic I'm sorry your outdoor sea Gathering area is not the outdoor seating for Sonic oh for Sonic sorry I'm a loophole no it was the I wasn't catching the reference to the sonic yeah it's all mostly outdoor seating you except for park or even like the you know the outdoor no an outdoor seating area um uh you know I could
picture it being a communal um uh you know a place to to eat with picnic tables and those kind of things but like not not McDonald's uh outside you know not the outside playground what if what if we took stuff like this and you know you have the rule in development of portion commercial or cic building faces
be located 25 ft from the screening period exception one right instead of just having a another sentence but you know because you're we're treating this like a code section right you you get where I'm going with this exception may be permitted exception one when outdoor gathering places are provided you
know adjacent to or whatever you know something like that yeah instead of just making another sentence just Define it as an exception okay you know what I mean so it's not like it's it's I think it's a little more yeah I can I can do that
all right I think we're back on the Joe's notes and somebody else has something Robert you didn't all right about no I'm agreeing with you guys everything you're saying yay makes sense um the rest this next one guidelines I I suppose most of
my concerns are regarding a landscape a an actual landscape design plan I I don't know if we need language in there that because I feel like we've been LED down the path and then not g you know watch the shiny object and then you know we don't get we don't get what we want right like I know that there are landscape plans that get brought in but they clearly that someone isn't watch
dogging for the town when they make their changes or however that happens I wanted you know I so I don't know if there's a way to put you know per your land your required landcape design I don't know again it's probably for another day um U my next note was shall not be allowed permitted I think there's one in there on the next one building design oh on all right on building design yeah but uh yeah should not
appear to be all brick okay next page that's good good okay down to number nine this is uh you and I started to talk about this the other day the hipon deck yeah that was that was taken from the existing guidelines okay as long as
it's not the hip on Deck that's straight slapped down that is not we're not allowing that right because we're what we talking a hip on Deck here page no I I know where you're talking about a hip on Deck is an acceptable rooftop when you say hip on Deck what do you mean a standard hip roof no flat roof like a that's a answerer no and then the drop that's a answerer okay if you go to I'm sorry you uh you know what I'm saying well I know the picture I know
what you're saying you're saying like here's the picture flat roof like this there is there was yeah any there was a hip on Deck like this see hip on Deck I don't want that okay I'm just saying there's a picture that's what's typically called a maner roof okay what's that right I don't know why that is like that I mean we discussed this before yeah that you so this is
I was what they're calling a hip on Deck is I don't know if you're familiar with like a Sandalfoot style townhouse right and that's a man I know in the in the existing uh this is yeah this is I had a question for for Joe when she stopped by last week looking for this document and I said Hey do you remember whether or not we
said you know maner roofs are were uh permitted or not permitted and we had the discussion so I just went back to um appendix C and it it has the example of what they're calling a Gamel and Gable maner the hip and then the the hip on Deck all of those in the existing guidelines or you know those were
acceptable and my question to Joe was like what do we talk about and were they allowed or not so this is this is a fair question um I I went with a non-change because it was in the existing document but I don't have a strong recollection of the discussion one way or another I think we we I think maybe maybe first we need to pull clear definitions of these roots right right because
when you pull up image of maner roof the very first roof that comes up is picture of the hip on Deck the picture of what is being called a hip on Deck okay okay and then this is also known as a maner because of the style of that this Dro because it's the next it's the next image so I mean I can so basically the Eve is almost flush to the walls I mean if you want just just Google maner roof and it's doing right now yeah it it comes up the the fourth
image is you know the pros and cons of maner roofs but um it it shows all different you know what a dormer is an open Gable hip you know you know a Dutch Gable which is what I would call you know probably a Boston hip um you know things like that so what is hip on Deck there that's something that they came up with and I mean yeah
so but what is but it's not it's it's called a maner roof there I you know I just Googled man maned roof for you and you know it's basically a flat Deck with a with a what they're calling a hipon deck is a maned roof yeah right and that's that's basically the the what makes it a maner is that that flat section which Devil's Advocate when you have a commercial building you're you're going to have you know
depending on what you know how they're doing I think you know most of them are doing you know parapet walls up the front and things like that with different architectural features um so you know some of them they're just going to have a flat roof with no stuff on top crazy and thank you c yeah I don't know why we don't allow parapets CU have these roof designs that we're requiring in here would would work on the front of a commercial building with a wall and I mean just well
because I thought we were trying to incorporate a porch so this sort of a hipb on deck this one in in appendix SE would absolutely negate that from happening but you could you can have a parit wall you could have a you can have a parit wall and still have a porch but not a hip on not this hip on you could have a maner you could you could have you could add a porch to that answerer or hip on De you could add it's not what kind of what we're going for but you I mean so okay so then let's
decide which ones we don't want well the the problem is like maner is a broad term I don't the hip on Deck I've never heard that term before so I mean I understand where they're going with that because because I hip on Deck hip on Deck hip yeah the AI review you I understand where they're going with it because it looks like a hip roof but it's not on the deck the deck is a flat section so I mean it's all got deck actually the whole front slope section okay but yeah so change the right wording and yeah I
think we need to clarify the definitions on that section sh just get rid of hip on Deck yeah well that that roof the maner roof certainly doesn't appear to be what we're looking for anyway yeah I don't even think the other maner roof is but it's kind of barnish looking I think that's what they were going for yeah it's it's just got a Gable on top of it or it's got a small hip on top of the flat deck where you normally that's why well if you look at the classic maner is you know the French design um and I
don't know if I can blow this up big enough that you can well that doesn't look like box no no I I know but the prison what you see I'm just that's a that's the maner roof with you know going up and then the slope there right um and is that sort of Victorian is what you're kind of and that sort of a a design that we're it's it's
not Victor it's French but uh wasn't but that's that's a maner roof right next to it that little picture right there I mean there's multiple it's it has to do with that that very sheer drop added to okay do so that because it has dormers and and it gives a break in the well Under The Roof is that if you if you go down if you go down further to number 11 and this once again this
was taken from the existing guidelines uh the hip on Deck roofs must be a minimum of three feet in height and a maximum of 8 feet in height and the pitch uh may vary between 30 and 60 degrees I think that goes the Joe's point that it can't be too flat there that there has to be um but that's what a maner does yes I hate to be a stickler about but that's what a maner does but what I hear
what I'm hearing from you Paul is that maner and hip on Deck the way we're looking at it is the same thing it's the same beast and so what you would like us to do is eliminate hip on deck call to manard um and what about Manards must be submitted for approval for design approval well everything's got to be different could pass and other maners you could say are too yeah because
I mean it's it's there's there's degrees to it you know what I'm saying right I mean Boston hips are a hip roof with a little Gable on the top of it I mean that's you know it's called something else on the Google machine you know they could be open to submit it but at least then we could say well this is more what the maner are we're looking at yours is not what we're looking at the the the issue is if we don't get kind of definitive they're going to be like listen you said manard this is a
maner that's I'm saying maner must be submitted for approval well yeah because because of different designs of maned roofs you must submit it for approval to approve yeah sub subject to I don't know I think I think we need to get more definition on the the type of roof and maybe get I I see what you're saying about the hip on what they're calling a hip on deck and not having that um I mean to your point I know
that a lot of these bigger commercial buildings are going to have a flat debt they have to and that's fine the parapet wall is you know I I think we should allow it but it has to have the forch I mean otherwi it's going to look like C and all that other stuff I mean so there can't be one they can't go oh I'm do this but oh I didn't put a porch on right because then it is it look just like the this picture for lack of a better term maybe we ought to put hip Onex prohibitive I thought we said that before well there's
your answer to your question and I you know and and that way if somebody comes with an elevation that looks like that we can say well this is what we call a hip on Deck I don't care if you call a maner this is what we're calling okay but is a maner roof prohibited or a maner roof is okay because they might call it man that's what I'm saying all mans due to the varying degrees of maner roofs must be submitted for approval yeah but to just point every roof has to be submitt every roof design has to
be submitted for approval anyway so we have to be kind of definitive as to say well they they are you know what I'm saying I guess you know because you leave you leave it open well you leave it open and it goes when the the architect or the engineer goes this is a maned roof you have you you're approved maned roofs yeah but the you know and then it goes to I think something that Joe was talking about with the
um with the the porch um and Paul correct me if I'm wrong on on this if you had a maner roof or a hip on deck or um uh maybe even a well Gable you could extend the it out farther to get the the porch that we're going to be wanting that would require you know almost a a separate roof whether
it's a flat roof or something like that on the on the porch um because our you wouldn't be able to foot fit an eight foot wide porch under a the design yeah you could be in a spot where you need a flat a flat roof on that as well yeah but then do you want you know that's that that was kind of I think where we were going before do you want that slight pitch roof with the metal on it in front of that in front of the porch even if
it's flat instead of having this if they can't fit you know say our you know argument AR Devil's Advocate they can't fit this you know Gable Dormer on the front coming off to cover the porch right you know what I'm saying so because you know depending on how big the building is the PE might X whatever yeah in my mind uh these things
did not these roof comments did not apply to um a uh a porch roof that a porch roof could be flat but I'm you know I defer to the committee on that because this is this is one of the things we're just maybe we stipulate that this is the main I I don't know how we get that that defined yeah all right try the picture to my head because for example the Hilton that just got approved every Hilton Garden looks
the same there's going to be it's flat roof obviously then on the bottom there's going to be a pulling for a car with a with a flat roof coming out there's not going to be a porch you know what I mean well they they came forward with a they came forward with a not to go down this rabbit hole but they they did come forward with a design they got passed over by PCB but it had like 11 variances and I think they took it down to three MH so I haven't seen the elevation I wasn't
on I'm on pzb so I didn't see the elevation um you know I'm hoping that some attention was paid to that um seeing as they passed it over with 11 VAR variances and they only came back with three so to that which was the property swap stuff right Serv out that well P see who's the watch do to make sure that c no that code and what they're submitting or what is it's
somebody sitting there liaison to go hey guys remember we want a 25 foot burn oh yeah I I think corre Jeff correct me if I'm wrong the process goes the applicant comes in it goes before the planner then the planner then from the planner it goes to PCB and then from PCB then it goes to the to the council whether PCB uh you know accepts it or you know denies it recommends for it recommends against then it goes to the council and
the council is the ultimate right and the and the the planner is a little broader than that because they go through um essentially a DRC process development Review Committee type of process in which the um you'll get comments from engineering you'll get comments from building you'll get comments from fire um all of those all those
bodies weigh in and there are several staff level meetings um that occur in which people come in and ask questions and then they do resubmittals and those kind of things so the initial Guardian on uh on this kind of thing is Staff um but they but staff has to have the standards in place staff yeah staff has to have um you know the the guidelines in place for to say it heing
is there's three three steps three people who should be checking and ultimately at the end it's Our Town Council people who have to say wait a minute I don't see a 25 foot um buffer here take this back to the beginning of the process or somewhere something better but there's three levels of people who should be checking that what you what you would have what you would have hoped is that the staff the staff would have caught it and then the applicant might have said oh I'm
acknowledging that and I'm requesting a waiver um and then the waiver is ultimately granted or denied by Council the end but so yeah but so you know and we can all I mean obviously you can take into account without saying the specific business but the most recent development we can all tell does not meet these guidelines and but it was approved it went through those steps and ultimately
the council said yes even though it didn't meet this y some of the some of these they went through some of the steps yeah yeah what the LA the the the step before Council they didn't have a quorum at the last meeting so yeah they had they had they had seen it in September and right recommended denial um but that's a a different rate so yeah but so
yeah we're getting in the weed seven okay so um two scale Dormers and CPAs are encouraged or are required um and I put in the words to scale Dormers and kuas are encouraged and the reason I put in to scale is of course Southern lawn who has a cardboard box at the far right hand end of their metal whatever that's a that's a
the recent development that's a but it's like I know so do we need that verbage two scale the scale Dormers and koas are required well I don't think that means if you put required that means every building has to have a dormer or a koua on I think the encouragement means that that we're looking toward that style but it also sounds like we're encouraging to put kuas on everything so when well that's what I'm saying applicable they are well no encouraged is kind of
like should encouraged means that's what we would like to see but it's not we're not mandating that every building look alike in fact we're probably don't want that to happen um but there are because there's there's not um okay I'm saying it should say to scale first of all and I agree with the should and the shouldn't or but except for that it's you're making your own point if you're saying that Dormers and kulas
are encouraged on every building you see it's the same sentence whether they're encouraged or required it still sounds like it's on every building so this sentence needs to be fixed period Well I understand what you're saying I I think the encour they are encouraged to put kpas maybe we take out the and or you know Dormers kpas architectural features right and and you know
or ar architectural feur features that um yeah to scale I don't know if that's I get what you're saying you don't having this little Dormer at the front entry and everything everything should be to to scale and what okay what we have is we have the overriding statement in the beginning that we want this to be done on a residential scale right um and and so
then it all kind of fits together um and and that's where there is whenever you're dealing with architectural standards and guidelines you can't be absolute or every building will look exactly the same totally understand except for we're giving them options anyway like on styles of roots uh wait hang yeah because I mean like
say you had a gable roof and the Gable end is pointing at the road you're not necessarily going to have a a dormer on that because it's you got the Gable in now it's not to say they couldn't put the cou on top of it like a Spire you know with a kind of ve yeah with a Weather Vein you know but you can put a a Koopa on top of a gamble roof as well or gramble gamble gramble okay I find it interesting Paul
how it starts actually to mention maner roofs and hip and deck like it's something different but I mean I when I was looking at this I must have Googled hip on Deck roofs for like an hour all I could get is literally a deck with a roof like it's I don't know well because the the little the little read of what that says is means you're putting a hip roof on top of a another deck yeah would be a hip roof um so for
me anyway just skipping through now I'm on everything else is just sort of porches and that onto page four um um I feel like under standards number two standards then to C subsection C provide a covered porch at the building entrances and sides porches are
not required in the service areas of the building porches must have a depth of 8 feet and an area of at least 150 well now we've defined an area but that doesn't necessarily mean then that they're going to run the length of the front and the side am I right that right I think the it's giving a minimum standard when you when you look at code sections and things like that they they always go by a minimum standard so you have to
give them a starting point because you know some some slick person could go out there and you know the little egress pad right outside the back door only needs to be 60 by 60 60 inches by 60 inches and they slap and they slap a little okay so that's not 100 that's 120 square feet right no sorry no I said inches 120 square inches my bad yeah that was bad MTH you're a man bad placement of of
the uh measurement but anyway so so You' have this little bitty thing on top of it and said okay your your egress now this says your egress has to be a minimum of 150 square feet and a minimum of 8 feet wide so it's basically 20 by8 yeah basally 20 so it's actually making it biger right it's not saying EG this is saying porches that right porches on the side porches on the front so like that's your ESS point but we want it to WRA the entire building when possible
well I think that's that's when that's what the intended language of you know provided on entrance and size and then and then saying that in the service area don't worry about the porch there right back where they're loading we have the one building that's almost at Co that the front of the building Points West right where the big Portico is or drive up area to drop off and it's got some features on the front and what
looks to be a a second story balcony porch type of thing but the back of the thing that you see when you leave Culver's doesn't match the architecture so it's not 360 and I doubt that you could call that a service area because it's not a store or restaurant uh yes an office building it would be more difficult to think of it as a service area correct so yeah now if you had an ambulance had to come up maybe but
you know okay I think that's where that's kind of where you were going right yes just did right yes absolutely needs to um okay and I think can I go back a little bit sure please the maximum allowable length of an uninterrupted building elevation is 50 feet that's number one under standards is that like what you would call I mean is that a normal allowable amount or is that just seem like a lot to me maximum
50 ft well interrupted 50 ft seems like a long stretch of having nothing but wall how long's this wall That's what I'm that's I'm trying to get perspective see that's about three so the front of this building I think is probably about 50 feet the total front my house is 55 long Karen my house is 44 by 55 that's
a three foot window right three yeah it's about 30 in three foot Windows yeah imagine that just one big blank wall no windows no doors yeah that's a pretty long that is a long run we can reduce it right yeah can never well it does talk about like like fake Windows doesn't it somewhere I thought I read visual interruptions to the pl of to be achieved through a combination of following methods
I mean just thinking of my own house I I think if I didn't have a window or something for probably 25 feet it would look right odd 50 would certainly look look at the metal building well that's 150,000 feet no um can't was get it maybe we need to drop it to 25 25 yeah what about
the roof line well that that was 50 feet but that it seems to me that a roof line it makes more sense that it could extend farther otherwise it be Gable G dmer dmer dmer yeah right okay just are we trying to encourage
like sidewalks development between you know like it' be nice if the town was planned like if you most people won't do it anyway but if you want to ride a bicycle or walk from Publix all the way to Boonies someday or whatever absolutely know we're pling sidewalks with tree canopies and that's number three connectivity and stuff was in in the other but a lot of these people are devel looks like they're developing these properties and there's no real connectivity through unless you walk like walk right up next to the
building yeah unless you walk on Southern right yeah I'm thinking down Tangerine you know in the middle in the heart of all this if you look at three and it was all development uh projects encompassing more than 10 acres should provide Pathways or trial Trails allowing safe passage and include outdoor Gathering Place and um that they should I thought there was connectivity in here somewhere sor it says provides pedestrian access
internally and connectivity to adjacent development yeah I thought yes there it is 3 three yeah why is that only safe is up here but even smaller Lots should we have a main sidewalk going down through the town then even the smaller lot should have connectivity to that I agree with Robert do less than 10 acres they we need like a main pathway bicycle way or something and walkway all development approaches and just strike out and compy I think
the issue is though that that that takes away from their parking development that keeps coming up is is part of an mud of a of a of a grand of a large parcel even though they're individually sold and developed Parcels they're part you know you understand what I'm saying yes so their their plan was already approved as such without having a walkway all the way through it thinking so I haven't seen it years I'm I'm
not sure where that one fell there but that's that's that's one of the reasons for uh internal connectivity as well as external connectivity right but then that's all kind of jumbled it's not like a and it be well it it does become difficult and let's just talk about your um the uh property to the North the Publix's um shopping center
there you've got connectivity internal along uh along publ but not out to the out parcels and that and no absolutely and and ridiculous and and getting to the out Parcels that's a that's a little bit of a trick I'm you know do we want to include that or or not should there be walkways and yeah they could have put a sidewalk in between the parking you
know car sidewalk in the middle in the middle of the cars where know up other they got them in Marshalls they do yeah I mean it's it's possible yeah so should it just say should we just strike encompassing more than 10 acres and have all development projects shall provide Pathways or Trails allowing safe passage in and around or whatever the words is for pedestrian traffic pedestrian passage yeah well I mean it clearly states pedestrian passage up top well we
need to reiterate the the the other thing on the 10 acres was the idea that you would include some outdoor Gathering Place right and on five acres that might be tough versus or out yeah but you're talking this is one this is two you got standard one and standard two standard one yeah so connectivity all right connectivity regardless of size that's a tricky sence and
then the outdoor Gathering Place would be on 10 acres or more yeah separate segregate separate those things rather than combine them got it and and should it put and and you know provide safe passage to outdoor Gathering areas and and or and out buildings I mean is that what you call those accessory buildings or what are those called you know Dunkin Donuts the out Parcels out Parcels does that language need to
be in there as well um yeah I that's really that's really in three yeah that's the internal because the development comes in it at once and you just have out Parcels okay think that screens on waist colors earth tones no more than three
colors my next questions are on page seven I just just want to make sure everybody's okay with the murals because that's a murals absolutely yeah because that's a potential design solution for uh as long as they one of the one of the buildings that we think is out there that's a problem as long as they're this is actually the one thing on the last page that
I was really looking for and again it's probably more page eight oh I haven't got to eight yet oh sorry Sor right um I have a question though B Page Six B guidelines the use of natural wood is encouraged over paint but then we start to add in other stuff yeah I was going to say I thought we had to find that composits would anything that was that had a wood appearance right the so to speak the
the intent was that um yes you're you're correct that the intent of this is that you've got those natural products but if you get something that looks like it looks like those natural products simulates it in some way those are potentially okay as well like two number two is A1 says that wood textured concrete simulated border bat is that what you're
talking about yes and um textur concrete block block which simulate the appearance of those uh or materials which simulate the appearance of those materials so it's wood texture concrete comma I think I think I got just pulled aside by number one the use of natural wood is in comma is encouraged Over Paint meaning
natural wood instead of painted wood is that the intent of number that was the that was the intent of number one that's the problem a lot of times with code sections there's no commas and stuff so you read it as like one you're like wait a minute meaning you have to put wood over your paint no meaning meaning it say in L of painting the wood right if you had a rough sa Cedar in L of painting the rough sa Cedar right it looks like it's over the paint yeah right this says in L of painting that you would leave it
natural or clear coat or whatever right that is that where you were going with that yeah so it probably should be overpainted uh painted wood or painted or painting the wood or something yeah yeah okay over painting or whatever yeah just it was like yeah because to get away from the to get away from the verbage uh for a second
is the sentiment yes shared by sentiment is now that I know what it was wood ConEd over painting the wood over painting the wood the wood right yeah something along those lines yeah okay all right so you had seven page seven page seven um uh porch railing should be wood
or have the appearance of wood all right I don't know I mean I'm okay with not using glass but I don't hate it I thought we thought I thought we were saying like iron was good yeah I thought we did too I feel like the only thing I don't see being rural would be like you know modern building with glass railings way yeah I think I um let see if I got there's a there's a sentence in there that says decorative ornade or steel
columns will have to be specifically improved and determined to be compatible with the overall architectural design and the intent of these standards and guidelines yeah but that's a column columns okay and so but we could leave the should here yeah right yeah we could leave the should there yeah because if somebody came with a really nice looking iron one it's like or something I don't know yeah I don't think we you know to open it
up to PVC but you know what I mean okay okay leave that should I will I just put an okay but I put the okay there what else you got Joe um negative screening shall be retained between I just want to be careful to me personally I have I'm the native Native is great is obviously that's the Nob brainer um is somebody
checking out that these are not poisonous plants that they're even though they're native is that a thing so we put native non-toxic exactly in these in these almost all plants are toxic to somebody or something okay what are you worried about yeah I mean like clusia bushes which equestrians love are actually toxic Delores yeah the milk and dogs and dogs and so are Palms okay all right right nothing I just know Oleander
can cause dogs real problems oh well there's Oleander which you know is around all the polo fields which will kill a horse then there's um what's the other one yeah my my granddog has gone to the hospital twice over the uh vet overnight twice because ofand yeah yeah I I get K I mean listen Holly's toxic too yeah you know my wife's allergic to the milk that the Holly puts off she can't right mess with it the sap yeah so
then tomatoes and all kinds of things little Redberry with the on on the Brazilian yeah my dad's scaring the daylight out one of the kids don't you dare put that in your mouth okay apple seeds what page you on Joe I'm still on seven I don't on the on it's okay on the standards native vegetation screening blah blah blah I put to the side I put a word the word density and a question um I guess that's over density goes
into chapter 87 they'll talk they talk about okay you know every 15 feet and those kind of things okay and and do they are they also going to talk about we I know we don't have this in there but there I I feel like we need to start putting in a ratio of palm trees to trees right density density is on page eight that's the one I wanted to talk about okay there you go okay then we're
coming over all right so hit it eight well just and again this is probably a question for code but so this was you know the big thing I was looking for because my biggest complaint with our commercial Corridor is we're not maintaining our our native look because the the buffer isn't big enough which we addressed but this paragraph specifically states that the native vegetation screening should be dense um and provide adequate screening screening
additional native plants may be required to achieve that the vegetation may only be broken at points of vehicular or pedestrian access in other words you shouldn't be able to see right that was the idea except for walkways and and entrances for for vehicles and that's clearly not being filed in on Southern Boulevard there's not a there's not a there's not a requirement for that in the code in the code currently this is
this is our attempt of starting to is that paragraph new that yeah yeah this is that's something new that fits into the discussions that we have had and that has been brought up at at Council okay those kind of things to to get there and to to Paul's um Point how you get to density and Define dense that's probably better in the Landscaping section
to talk about okay it's not just enough to have this you know and then you get into you get into a legitimate issue um of naturally when things are new and growing in you're not going to get the the the density or intensity that you're you're you're you're you're going to look for there there and now there's lots of places um and
this is this is a personal thing that irks me when um people will put in trees and overpopulate them early and then when they become mature you have to start cutting them out because there's not enough room for healthy canopy to to
to grow uh there and I think if the design and you know it definitely can be done I I tell you in the the people we know in the equestrian community of course these are multi-millionaires when they build an equest facility in Wellington all of a sudden the next day you won't be able to see in because they plan vegetation from you know six inches off the ground all the way up to an oak tree and by planting all that with the proper spacing you can't see anything on
day one because you've gone from petow you know you gone from petto maybe to kusas to a couple cabbage bombs to oak trees in the background that are going to grow tall um if the planting is right it definitely can be done but you're right you definitely should just shove everything in there either yeah so but that's good that it's in there one of that was an attempt to address some of the concerns that have been expressed um and it'll apply to you
know development and Redevelopment what if we add language in here like on number two the one Brian's talking about you know requirements in this section must provide and maintain for a dense screen that's good language give me that again must provide and maintain yes okay for
a d for f aent screen okay then of course the rest of it applies right but the the the initial sentence says you're going to provide it and maintain it yep and if you can get there with with the existing cool if you can't then you supplement right and and and just for the record I
got to say Ken and I sat and did exactly this and are we had we had BMS and buffers not unlike what you would find down Lion's Road or even some of the when talking specifically about this project and coming up and they still just somehow got away with whatever it is they're doing over there that that happened so this is kind of our second time around having this conversation
I I'm hoping that somehow this gets more teeth than that um not to say that we should just keep pushing ahead but this it's not for lack this was this is this hasn't been overlooked right no absolutely I mean it's because it's it's so frustrating we're sitting we're doing the same thing you might have been the first ones to do it probably probably not no and it seems like really the the disconnect is three steps at the end getting the approval and I don't think commercial I mean if
you think of other areas in the county even just Royal Palm Beach commercial if you say the commercial no I want you to build a 50 foot screen with with varying levels of buffer so we can't see almost you at all with a sign of this size I mean if you think of other area they're not going to run away I mean even you know Texas Roadhouse down the street that Kohl's shopping center they have tons of vegetation in front you can see through it it but not like that you know what I mean it's not just one tree
and a hedge so it definitely can be done if it's enforced at the time of design well that just sort of yeah I'm sorry but that just takes me back to the the if the person who is representing this portion of that site plan it doesn't have some sort of oversight it's going to it's going to continually slip through the cracks and if planner if the planner is what
staff is when this is happening then clearly somebody else needs to be sitting there yeah because they're working so closely with the developer as well right this is a yeah I know different different Converse yeah sorry Sor question though this isn't complete is it you tell me what we're missing lighting yeah I've got the outdoor lighting okay lighting signs I know we're talking about
sign code but it's part of it was part of the rule Vista as well I didn't bring that it was and signs in my mind were were were part of the the the signage and other than other than saying signage uh should be consistent with the you know the AR the general architecture of the the development um I'm not sure you go much more
than that um I think my biggest concern the signage is size right yeah and that's that that's in that would be in the sign code you well yeah in the old one there was there was concern about the type of sign like the material Etc back lit things like this you know whether it's lit from the ground or lit from which are also yeah that's also in the sign code but that's in the sign code yeah um and so but should do we want
to have a just a short paragraph stipulating that you know it should meet some kind of similar design criteria blah blah blah that it matches the building yeah I think I think yeah some we need a statement about compatibility with the the rural characteristics the rural characteristic and the overall architectural um design of the development yeah I think same thing with the lighting aspect because we can get into lumens and all that junk but that's that's elsewhere in the in the
in the yeah I don't mean a junk I don't mean junk yeah um yeah when I when I looked at the the lighting section there um and my recollection of our discussion uh we didn't want to get we did not get specific about this light fixture Works versus that light fixture so I think once again the general compatibility on signs and and lighting fixtures
Mak sense um but the the the lighting requirements that you know you've got to have it Point down it can't go out the downl download and all those kind of things that's in the uh that's in the code um so we have we have General comments yeah regarding that and that's why I didn't go into a whole bunch of detail with respect to parking you know right um because
once again there are parking standards and what well I think what about I'm glad you said parking what about all the discussion of the medians Etc is that all falling under landscape um I the Incorporated benches the you know yeah in the you know where I'm going with this in the landscaping design see it kind of Blended in with it says cluster trees are more desirable than just in the
in the guidelines I got um uh number three on page 14 I guess it is uh regimented parking lots with Landscaping limited to a certain number of cars does not create a rural feeling or enhance the rural character of the project number four is more Innovative parking areas are needed to avoid the feeling of a sea of cars maintenance of existing native tree canopy and liberal use of Shrubbery and parking
screens including consideration of parking in the rear rather than the front sorry I missed that of the project is is encouraged yeah so those were the like the general guideline kinds of statements um and if we get that buy in then we can Implement more in the paring my question huh that answered my question I I I I told you I scanned I try to scan pretty good but yeah yeah I went right over the parking plot do we want but do we want to mention
in somewhere in the parking lot area this is what my next thing is is the use of I would like to stop them using uh just palm trees and certainly Royal Palms oh my gosh I can't tell you how many times I have to jump over a canoe Palm FR that's falling down at pubs to get into the store right I know they're supposed to maintain them but if we could does not have them you know I think that goes
into the Landscaping code right Yeahs are actually dangerous of course the too but they fall on your car of course the problem with other things like Live Oak is the damage to the parking lot and the root systems you know of course o ponds are just equally as dangerous not because of the roots but because of getting hit on the head yeah like we're constantly hoarding off different trees all year round at work because there's a big pod hanging you
know getting ready yeah and they're like they're almost as tall as the building and they're inside the courtyard yeah and then there's you know then there's trees that drop the berries and oh okay well then don't let's not talk about the duck that has her eggs in the in the Scupper from the roof that's you know 30 foot in the air drops eggs on people's head that's a whole different story for a different time it sounds like we want is nice rural uh coverage parking yeah
exactly so do you have you mentioned here talking about sign code do you have a copy with you or no sign sign code the way we're gonna start addressing this is um with some discussion good uh because that there are there are some problem one second I assume we're all good with you with the ru V right oh okay I I just want to make sure yeah can we have um consensus well is there is
there a you let me know do you want this to come back to you one more time with the changes so you can review it again I think so we have one more before the next meeting right before the next Council we have one more well let's let's talk about our meeting schedule then we've said it Sam's got it Sam's got it did yes did he put it in
the the minutes see I don't recall let's check the minutes March 3D third there you go very good so let's one more one more time on March 3 all right of her rural Vista very good okay can I can I attend remotely I'll be in Vegas for a conference um possible I will give you some money you can place a bet and we'll get you there now um we can get you we
can get you to zoom in here okay I get you the link or somebody that's Technic technologically competent uh we contact you no you will uh that's fine we will get that to you yeah Monday first Monday of March okay that's good so before we jump on sign thing I I'd like to point out I don't know if I did last time um before
the retag committee was suspended for a period of however many years it was the last time we met with and Jim was Jim fleschman was running the meeting we discussed the signit in depth right inth we we we discussed that in depth along accompanied by a trail sign package right so I mean
we can discuss but I I think I think maybe we need to find that stuff all right I'll I will dig that up prior but what we it was like last or next to last meeting because we we approved a sign package for the trails that there was samples that were supposed to be gotten and whatever then we got suspended but I thought that package actually went I thought that whole thing went to the council for
approval okay and Jeff I still have some of the packets from the udc's meeting on signs I know that we a lot of it is on residential which of course doesn't apply which is where we got stumped because we can't first amend it you know but we did a lot of work on on commercial signs and if you'd like I will bring those notes in from our past dldc I don't know where it went matter of fact it was it there it was a push because it was right prior to
I think uh fire rescue redoing their sign something along those lines it was right around that so I could be wrong but I'll take a we we'll take a look for that if I can't find it Joe I'll ask you to okay get me something but all right um are we ready to to move on to signs I'm going to try to be brief here given that are you going out yeah do we want to take
a do you want to take a break or no it's it's cour 8 I think we're okay yeah I figured you're getting to that point all right let me pull up here the roof discussion kind of drug on all right um this is zoning map of lockah haty Groves okay and when you
look at all that green that's agricultural residential okay primarily the the primary use in there is single family there are you know slash there's farms and things like that but the primary use in that area is single family residential um we have very limited uh commercial
there is undeveloped commercial down here um uh on the corner of it's yeah um and then you've got the development down um along Southern which one once again as far as what is currently
zoned commercial it's uh relatively limited um the blue sections are um publicly public ownership uh anyway the the point of this is our sign code there's couple things that are relatively unique about the sign code in lockah hatche groves um you have for the I
won't necessarily say most part but very large part of the community um especially con compared to other residential areas you've got large lot residential most places large lot is an acre um really big light State Lots start at like two or 2. five um and here we consider that well that's a that's a real small one how did that
development ever take place um so you've got very large Lots okay in your residential uh area now why am I focusing on residences for a second because the other component that you have is you have uh Farm signs and farm signs are are not something that we as a municipality can regulate so Farms
if the farm signs are related to the farm and arguably agrotourism activities those kind of things um they can have as many as big and wherever they want them on the property now um I'm I I'm honestly not a aware of somebody
in town that that uh abuses that you all may feel that there are some abuses with that but I'm not I'm not calling out anybody in that respect I just want you to understand that sign code that we would pass won't apply to those kind of establishments now nor residential lots signs do apply uh to to that
and one of the things that we have what do what what what's normal residential lots people that are anything that's not bonified agriculture well in your first thing are you saying people that actually have an ad classification or just L that are zoned ad because it's a huge difference okay no we're not talking about s we're talking about classification and you don't actually have yeah you you don't actually have to have a classification with the with the county to be bonafied act yeah if you have if you have
an actual Farm operation yeah yeah on your site and Paul's correct you do not have to have applied for the a classification in order to have a a farm but if you have a farm operation and the sign relates to your farm including like you can get eggs for $3 a dozen wouldn't that be one f um but you can you can
put out a big advertising sign and we uh are unable to to regulate that so what without saying where I've seen this but um on D Road there's a particular Farm it's a equest facility but there's signs out advertising this person's reality expertise of selling equestrian properties that doesn't seem like this would that would applied to something we could not regulate you are correct that that is a
that is a sign that could be regulated you know so again if it if it's for the the the farm doesn't apply to this conversation correct right but if you have a but in turn if you have a hobby farm right right which there's a lot of those out there right you can't have a big metal Arch over your trust me I've wanted to do it for a while just cuz you know I think they're cool but you can't have a big metal Arch over your gate that says you know Coleman farm and livestock you know or whatever establish whatever
I mean you can I can yeah yeah that's what he with the hobby Farm non Bonafide that's what he's saying careful Jeff you might find one okay I'm hold your on record yeah um The Hobby Farm there's a lot of Hobby Farms that you're saying hobby Farm is people who are not classified a no that's what I was going to get around to there are lots of farms that I
think Mr Coleman's uh refering personal use Farm which are which are which are they do have an agricultural classification associated with them and if you have an agricultural classification the presumption is that you are operating a a farm so you know if it's the bees there you know uh whatever whatever from my G yeah all right cool and it and and and that sign might not I mean
the bottom line is is we're looking anything that's currently zoned what falls under the commercial umbrella such as institutional etc etc no no no no no because you do signage on um residential property right you do regulate we do regulate that so like Los Angeles for example this is just design no no no no we're on the sign code now Vista we're on sign
code we're on sign code not for Rural Vista he's giv us background before this is this is backgrounds that we can talk about just G us we're not getting into not gonna get into a whole lot of detail only got a few minutes so there are those are those problems the other thing is you cannot regulate content um so a sign's a sign and the
one of the weaknesses that's an easy example within our our code is uh in the AR District you are able to have uh a holiday um or seasonal sign um or display I think it's seasonal display and that seasonal display is not limited in size
um whereas other signage including political signs for example are limited in size and number um and time limit and time limit and and so the seasonal display that can that's the kind of thing you're getting into content you're trying to regulate it and guess what any place that you're allowed to put up something you can have have whatever content you want in there so if I wanted to
have a political sign in my seasonal display because what better than St Patrick's Day is coming right around the time that people usually vote and St Patrick says vote for blankety blank I can make a really good legitimate argument that that thing can be as big big as anybody would want it to be so that's one of the things we're
going to have to address in the in the sign code so now you're getting into no no no I'm I'm just I'm talking about right now constitutionality and the and the Constitution says that you can't you can't determine the the content so if I if I allow a seasonal display I can use that seasonal display for whatever I want
it to actually say um so with respect to to signs bigger Lots those kind of things Residential Properties um many communities say you can have one sign um but generally they're thinking about places that are normal and we've got a quarter acre or you know two10 of an acre something like that um so what I want you to
think about because we only got a few minutes are go look around how many signs are reasonable on a um residential property in this community that deals with real estate and how big should that sign we've got the little regular signs that
most real a lot of Realtors use once again designed for um normal size Lots you know well I might have I'll warri you we real quick with a sign story many years ago um my brother-in-law got a property uh two acre piece of property that he bought we flipped it with well with my help he ended up getting all the profit but
we we flipped it so that he had a simultaneous closing between his and um the prophet We Were Young uh you know and he made he doubled his money it was a great deal within 30 days we're down in Wellington two acre piece of property he and I put up like an 8 by8 sign got yanked down by by wack um my my point on that is not to encourage 8 by8
signs but it did occur to us that the little sign was not sufficient those are things for you to to think about uh because temporary signs of residential um are going to be important um you generally want to have in your sign code most places do the ability to put up a a political sign the question is how many on
on properties once again is it one is it uh based on some factor of the size of the lot those kind of things then with respect to um with respect to uh commercial properties institutional properties those kind of things want to think about whenever there is multi- tenants on a on a property or multiple users if they
actually are um uh within a development that there's uh couple couple properties might be sold as out partials or whatever but they come in with a master sign plan um so that you have a a unitary sign design those kind of things within the uh the development itself um and I'm going to leave you with those things that wanted to emphasize that our
sign code is going to be a little different than everybody else's sign code what you will what we're going to bring back to you is a new sign code um that meets those constitutional requirements and uh we're going to basically talk about residential and Commercial development excellent Ryan anything I do not Karen I'm good good
Joe just would like to please beg of you if we're going to chew on this piece of signage the sooner we can have this agenda and just letting you all know it's Hefty so the sooner soon as we can get this information or even a text that says where they could look it mun as it exists now and sort of familiarize ourselves with it again it'll it'll help
in this endeavor yeah was meetings and meetings and meetings I think we did it I think we I think we provided you with the existing sign code but I will tell you that the plan is to move forward with a different configuration on the the sign code so that I didn't it would have been it me with the sign code where yeah it was in the maybe the first or second meeting but I I'll I'll give it
back to you I'm just saying I know you keep everything so I'm go like yeah I look at your old packages but um we'll provide you with the the links but we're not going to focus on what's existing we're going to provide you something that's looking different and meets constitutional muster okay okay hopefully simpler still like that as soon as possible yes
okay well with that being said sorry no you're I I gave you the floor you're good oh do I have a motion to adjourn second all in favor all thank you ladies and gentlemen we will see you march 3D all right thank you Jeff thank you Jeff thank you guys
uh well I I don't like that we make a new event time either that's like treee