##VIDEO ID:rspKwGUKQbo## we should change I mean that's what I know none of this is like through us because it's not great good evening everyone uh here and at home Welcome to our October 28th 2024 meeting of the Lunenburg planning board we are here at our beautiful Town Hall in the upstairs meeting room if you wish to join us and you're not already here tonight you are welcome to come on down in addition the zoom link is available on the agenda posted on the town website um if you want I mean you can also watch through Facebook or however else it's being shown on public access but if you want to chime in either get down here or log in on zoom and we'll be happy to hear from you this meeting is being Rec recorded and I think that's everything we're legally required to say to have a meeting so with that I will uh call us to order if someone wants to lead us in the pledge they may United States of America and the repblic for it stands Nation God indivis Li and justice for all all right we have uh looks if you've been following on our agendas the format has changed a little looks like a pretty full agenda but I think more medium on the grand scale of things just the way it's listed in the paper gets a little longer but we will dive in uh we're going to open with public comment for those who might be here uh for the first time or not as frequent flyers for the board so the initial public comment is for things generally speaking not related to the upcoming public hearings if you're here to comment on an upcoming public hearing then we will um take your public comment on that then also in addition we often are very happy to receive public comment and thoughts at times outside of the officially required times if you have a question or something raise your hand we'll we'll get to you if if time allows and if it's appropriate outside of the times we're definitely going to get to you uh any public comment like I said earlier we're here just for the cons y so uh seeing I know that most people are here for uh one of the upcoming public hearings and we'll take care of that no worries there um and uh friends on Zoom don't forget to use that raised hand feature if you want to speak um could I just hear from M Reed to make sure that the audio is working and everything I'm here can you hear me yep um M Reed is our fifth planning board member she's attending remotely tonight uh that means all votes will be taken by roll call procedural thing um and Amanda I will be calling on you last for each vote to give you a chance to unmute perfect great okay with no public comment we will dive into our chair and director reports Chris do you want to share anything first or I can talk about some of it great yeah if you want to um start first and I can fill in afterwards it's whatever you prefer okay um there's updates on the master plan I haven't looked had a chance to look in detail at your document yet but um there uh just as a few things for the public to know the master plan process continues to move forward and uh there is a new survey out I encourage everyone to please I mean if you're a lunberg resident please take that survey at plan lunenberg dorg you go there there's a nice obvious link to the survey and um again what you'll notice is this builds on the previous surveys and there there'll be a survey a public info meeting a survey a public info meeting every time kind of first taking ideas from the community and refining them we're in the home stretch for master planning and that means that these surveys are getting much more specific on your opinions about the future of This Town Master plans are supposed to last 10 years on paper in practice they're off in 20 years easily so you want to get your voice heard go to plan lunenberg dorg take that survey you're going to see flyers in the coming days up around town to remind you as well uh are there printed copies available at the planning office for that there are okay and so if you can't do electronically swing by the planning office I believe there's some at the uh Eagle house Senior Center sorry adult Activities center as well if there's not I'll make sure we get some there for you thank you Mr chair if I could just um go add a little bit more I know we have a packed agenda but so are you all uh familiar with what a master plan is okay so you know we're updating ours as the chair is described and so our next big meeting public meeting and final meeting is going to be December 4th in the library and it'll be at 7:00 p.m. and it'll be right in the main hall there so if you could really uh find the time I know you're all busy but if you could find the time to help us get some more input and uh finalize this thing then it's going to be an important document for the direction of the town and having a a really legally strong uh basis for some of the decisions that the planning board makes so we really count on your input and need your input and are interested in it so uh it's your community your future so please come December 4th but in the meantime if you can fill out the survey our consultant will take that information and then it all goes into a master plan that is going to have goals and recommendations and action items and those will be important about the next 10 years of lunenberg so please uh get the word out and and if you have have the time we'd really appreciate it on December 4th joining us at the library it's all I have on that great um I'm happy to let you speak to uh some of the other topics as you deem appropriate yes so this is um a director's report I don't know if you've done something like this but this is typically what I do as a land use director wherever I am it's been a few places but uh so I just run down some sort of administrative and uh planning items just to update the board on what's going on in the planning function and So lately our priorities have been the fees review status we're looking at updating our fees they're kind of all over the place and I got to give Logan you know a lot of credit here for trying to straighten them out and apply them but we need some consistency and we need to update them so they're there's Clarity for everyone for the applicants and for the board as well uh so these are the the fees that the applicants pay the money is important to come into the budget so that we don't have to ask you for more money and you know come town meeting so there's that and I'll have a um draft fee schedule for you probably in the next meeting uh you can review it obviously nothing's going to happen without your input and then from there once we agree on the fees after some uh input from our regional planning agency they do fee surveys we'll take that data and you can look at it and then we have to have a public hearing for you to approve them some fees are going to go up some will probably most of them will probably remain the same but we'll sort and organize everything so you understand it we understand it the applicants understand it and the public understands so that's that update on the MBTA zoning review with our regional planning agencies everybody know what the MBTA Z zoning is this is a state statute that is requiring a lot of communities that are served by the MBTA to adjust their zoning around uh you know public transportation in a variety of forms uh so that it allows more housing by right and so this is a controversial subject I'm I'm sure some of you have talked about it or aware of it the planning board needs to move forward by December 2025 and come up with some planning that meets the statute or we decide as a as a community we don't want to abide by that statute and then funding is at risk but nonetheless we're going to have some public information sessions zoning workshops we're going to come to the public with everything we're considering all the options the planning board has before them you're going to know everything and you're going to know what's at stake so we'll be doing that in the next 7 8 n months for fall town meeting we want to get the master plan done and have that sort of inform everything that moves forward from there but this is a a big controversial thing you've read about it in the paper I'm sure and it affects lunenberg so we're going to try to do our best to planning board to serve your interest and to try to comply with the law but you have options and we're going to review them so that's that any questions on that nope uh the 2025 work plan so this is what I'm talking about here I mentioned it the last meeting it's something I generate for uh the pleasure of the board it's your priorities it's how I track and and um you know sort of remain accountable to you so that you're seeing what you want as a board member so I have a 2025 work plan you can see it's pretty limited right now but by all means please give me your input about your priorities we talked about some of them that we have to do but your volunteers up here are serving your town uh you know to the greatest degree so it should be fun too um so let's uh let's talk about that and you can see everything here including the Adu zoning this is the accessory dwelling unit zoning that would have been on the town meeting this town meeting it's another state statute that allows accessory dwelling units by right but it needs more work Town Council advis we need to clean up a lot of stuff for legal reasons and uh just to serve your interests as best we can so working with another state statute sort of a decree but trying to get as much of lunenberg interest in it as is legally allowed that's that's what we're looking at there and that'll come to a annual town meeting uh town meeting presentation we talked a little bit about that Mr chair you're going to do it you're most knowledgeable person I know about it y um and everybody The public's had a lot of chance to weigh in but it will be open town meeting and so uh you know if you need any support leading up to that let me know but I think we're in good hands that's all I have anything else I maybe swing by the office to do some of that building there just BEC uh building the deck and everything there just BEC if when the conference room's available because always yeah it's sometimes easier to work in a space that isn't your kitchen table yes um great leave the mustards on the the table all right that's that's all I have thank you thank you great thank you any comments or questions from the board before we go on all right super then we'll get on to public hearings um it sounds like most people who are here are here for the public hearing for 494 Electric Avenue which also happens to be our first one on the agenda so perfect don't need to rearrange um this is we'll be opening the public hearing tonight uh M Reed are you good for reading our intros tonight as Clerk or would you rather someone else took care of that I'm fine I can read them as long as everyone can hear me yep great okie dokie uh the lunberg planning board will hold a public hearing on recording in progress 28th 2024 at 6:05 p.m. Town Hall 17 Main Street lunenberg Mass to hear and review an application for storm water management permit pursuant to 2014-1 D of the code of the town of lunenberg as amended at the November 177 2020 special town meeting by DNA a Lunenburg LLC for redevelopment of 494 property for reconfigured parking construction of an additional parking lot and a commercial structure an application for site plan approval pursuant to 250-8471 town meeting by DNA lunenberg LLC for redevelopment of 494 property for reconfigured Park paring construction of an additional parking lot and Commercial structure subject property information the location is 494 Electric Avenue assessor map 113 parcel 18 and assessor map 98 parcel 38 owner is d and a lunenberg LLC 494 and0 Electric Avenue I'm assuming that's lunenberg Mass 01462 materials are viewable at the planning office at 960 Massachusetts Avenue in lunenberg Mass great thank you um and so what we're going to do we're going to hear from the applicant we're going to then give initially the board a chance to ask any initial questions make initial comments once we get through that then we will open up for public comment and we'll go from there great okay great uh for the record Chris Anderson with handy engineer ing here on behalf of DNA lunenberg LLC uh for site plan approval for the uh construction of a commercial uh building as well as reconfiguration of an existing parking lot associated with an existing business um as was read during the uh advertisement the property is located at 494 electric AV um as well as uh what's technically considered 10 Lake View Drive or like Front Avenue uh which is a remnant of back when the property was associated with like way amusement park um but effectively uh the property is uh contains an existing uh restaurant facility the al Forno restaurant um at the 494 electric AV property uh the other property um along electric AV uh is currently undeveloped uh it's comprised primarily of brush and New Growth uh based on aerial photography uh over the years it appears that the site has gone through various iterations of clearing and not clearing and regrowth and everything like that and it's been used as a staging pile for many many years uh so at this point in time uh the front portion of the site um has been relatively Disturbed as uh due to the movement of Earth and the back portion is predominantly New Growth Woodland uh there is a uh area subject to Wetland protection net and the town of lunberg bylaw Wetland bylaw um near the back portion of the property so we are going in front a Conservation Commission as well for work within those jurisdictional areas um but the general intent of the project is to construct a new parking lot for the L Forno facility as well as construct a new um commercial building on the property as well uh just to help move the process along for this review um I'll start with the elno property itself um currently uh the property does have an extensive parking lot area most of which is non- compliant with the current zoning regulations but it's pre-existing not conforming uh there are uh on certain occasions may I pause you for one second for a quick definition for everyone here uh pre-existing non-conforming just you're going to hear that term here you might hear it other places just means it doesn't meet the current regulations by the town that's cool because it was there before those current regulations that's all okay um but effectively as you said before pre-existing not conforming um and it's noted on certain occasions the parking lot does become filled to capacity uh so as part of that uh we're looking to uh expand upon the parking on the undeveloped portion of the property um across Pierce AV uh we're intending to recreate the parking on the actual 494 lot to be zoning compliant and provide Surplus parking on um the 10 lake front view property on the other side of uh pureav uh that will all be zoning compliant relative to dimensional requirements um we are uh noting that we are requesting a waiver uh from the setback from a residential district uh by code you're required to have 40 as shown uh we're showing 20 ft off the uh zoning setback Line This is the zoning line not a property line um but effectively um to offset that uh uh reduction in the offset requirement uh we are proposing to construct a 6ft solid wall fence immediately along the edge of the parking lot and then between the fence line and the residential zoning district line provide additional Evergreen plantings to help buffer further that parking lot configuration um access to this new parking lot uh will be provided off of the way known as Pierce AV uh this will be create a loop configuration uh with one means of ESS onto Pierce AV um with a sidewalk connection to the 494 restaurant as well uh for pedestrian access um we're providing storm water management um based on the current state regulation regulations as well as the local bylaw um and it's our understand that it's gone to peer review for engineering um so we're still waiting that comment back um and that would be effectively what we're calling the 494 portion of the property in addition to that we're looking to construct a commercial structure of approximately 6,300 Square ft um on this effectively the south side of the property um this will be serviced by its own separate driveway entry with a loop configuration with the applicable parking uh based on the most restrictive um parking requirements we're required to have 26 baces we're showing 29 uh so we are meting the SE or the parking requirements for that and effectively this all ties into one system relative to storm water management um which will utilize an infiltration Basin closer to the rear portion of the property um I will not um the property is also being uh further subdivided into two lots um pending favorable action by the board um effectively what we're doing is we're creating one lot which would be exclusively the commercial zoning District uh with um all the associate amenties I just went over a moment ago um and the second lot would be exclusively the residential uh Zone portion of the property uh which would be potentially developed at a future State uh but there's no immediate uh intentions to do so at this point in time um with that being said uh there are some concerns relative to pierce a um relative to um its status if you will um Jeff aini with um the U applicant's attorney is here tonight if there's any questions relative to that we did provide a uh legal review of that as part of our submittal package um so if that is a question of the board uh we can address it at that point um but effectively at this point in time we're here for initial uh comment gathering information at this point uh so that we can uh acquire all the information that we need and address the comments raised by Town departments um and peer review when that does come in so that we can provide one comprehensive plan set for the board to review all right um so I I just have initial procedural question it it sounds like um so you're talking about dividing off Lots pending favorable review from the board so if we were to do the site plan review then there would be an anr following do I understand that correctly correct okay procedurally is there any issues Noe with okay no there'll be lots in common ownership they can create those uh after a permitting approval okay great as I wanted to make sure that we're good there um all right I'm going to have some questions and I I think I will not be the only one about piav to get a better understanding of that because it's it's certainly confusing to me yep um but before we get to the Pierce a segment I I want to just turn to the board and say do we have other initial questions or thoughts to share out loud before we get to the piav and once we've talked about and then gotten board thoughts on this and the piav component then we'll go for public comment um do we have a copy of that layout because the only thing I can locate is what was put in the staff notes for the day uh yes um go you you need to go into SharePoint oh see I downloaded everything that is a okay yeah okay I forgot we were moving to SharePoint yep thank you I'll take care of that um you mentioned um doing 20 foot not 40 foot setback where was that again so that would be located along Pierce AV uh the zoning line effectively runs along the roadway system system um so we're requesting a a reduction down to 20 ft um in order to fit the parking into that area um to offset that you know encroachment if you will for lack of better term uh we're intending to put a solid wall fence between the parking and uh the zoning district line so there's a permanent physical barrier preventing any kind of light shine or intrusion going on to piav itself um and then to help offset and create more of a naturalized appearance putting Evergreen planting between the fence and the zoning district line to help break up the fence so you're not looking at a solid wall vinyl fence at the end of the day I'm going have some questions because I don't think I fully understand the technicalities of that a little bit but I think understanding the pi for me understanding the pi have component will be helpful before I go on that route any other questions before we move on all right seeing none I I would ask um so I I think in the in the common understanding of people I think they look at Pierce AV and think it is a public right of way a public road and I understand that you're going to explain to us why why I'm not looking to cast out going to say why you feel that's not the case we'd love to hear it okay um I will uh invite U Mr aini up he is the attorney um he's done the research and everything that that associated with that component great Mr chairman the board I attorney Jeff aini I represent um the applicant and I will tell you before we started the process um we had attorney Joe Pelini do a complete title examination about piav he drafted an opinion letter as part of your package so the simplistic way to look at this is that if you go to town hall all there is a series of votes if you go through your records and the votes talk about Pier those votes were never brought to the registry of deeds and recorded to indicate psav was taken there's one small section down the end of PSV that was taken but the point in question here directly across the street from where the restaurant is was never taken so it's a little bit of a legal anomaly because I think the town beli they took it they never did your bylaw talks about your parking has to be all in the same lot so by definition we have one big lot when DNA buys this lot across the street the title merges we have one lot what's somewhat interesting is I've got a certified a butter a certified Street listing from your town cleric and they say Pierce AV has been accepted so it's a little bit of a conundrum because it was never taken but your town has accepted it so for the benefit of of my client we have one lot and Pier have has been accepted so we're going to take the benefit of what your bylaw says and say we're going to parking on one lot because that's exactly what we have so if again if you read I can go through attorney pelini's opinion letter it's it's pretty straightforward and he identifies what he's done I think that would be helpful both for the board sure and as well as for everyone here in here in the room and at home okay so again Pelini he's a title abstractor he's been doing this 30 40 years did a complete title abstract which means he goes to registry Deeds he runs the city back he runs the abutters back he runs all the PRI owner backs and he looks for Deeds out to the city in relation to pierce have or he looks for what's called a taking or a layout none of that was located except the one small piece towards the end where I think there's a or there was a DPW type facility I'm not exactly sure what that was he then I'm sorry water department water depart I'm sorry water department he then backs in puts an abstract together and does a report as he's doing that report again he's looking to see if Pier sa was never taken and he and he concluded that it was not especially in front of where our lot is directly across the street from the new 6 acre lot that we purchased about a year and a half ago so now we have what's called merger of title the titles have merged and under your bylaw we have one lot so so in order to pull this plan together so we have one lot to put our packing on legally that's what we have as one lot because there's not the register reads that says the town of lunenberg took Pierce AV directly across the street from where our Locus is on the other hand the town believes it was taken because in your registered certified Street listing it says Pier sa is an accepted way and how long ago we talking about here back until I think the early 1900s but I mean so when did um mat we took the votes and he ran them up from we had the votes some of the votes go back to the 1900s uh go back to the N or 1800s or 19 well I think he he went back as far as the votes we could find a record at the at the Town Hall when does the town believe it took possession of pif well not possession when they actually they took it it' be sometime but there was different takings different sections but the plans and the descriptions aren't that great sometime around 1901 1910 okay but we've covered all he covered all those periods in his in his research I I'm taking a moment to just kind of look at everything not an easy thing to get your head around Mr chairman I would agree Mr chair if I make quick question do we have a copy of that that report yeah it's in your package okay I didn't see that I can give you I have a sp copy if you like it okay y uh we of the title examination it's a we I have the legal opinion yeah I have he has legal opinion he has he has his his notes and his abstract notes but I've got a legal opinion okay if I can Mr we're looking for the te key for us because we've talked to Town Council about this Mr chair and U it requires a title exam there may be Merit to there legal argument it's a two-step process Town accepts it at town meeting but did they take the fee they know our records for what we've discerned they never took the fee okay well if you got the title exam report there and that that's what we need this is a the summary we can I can get you the report he usually that's usually that's his work he would do an opinion letter that he s yeah we we'd like the complete report just have Town Council look at it and we may in fact agree with you and then we can proceed but do you want a copy of this you want I have that but yeah thank you yep yeah I have a question please what's to stop the town from taking it by eminent domain now that a question for me anybody I mean I'm not a lawyer so I I don't know Squad about it it just sounds kind of silly I mean just why can't we make a taking I mean if it's a road we've got 1 2 3 4 five six houses well it looks like seven houses and you're saying Pier have you're you're saying Pier have is not owned by the town until it gets to the clearing depart right if I may Mr chair I think a taking ENT to a main is a legal process and there's all sorts of Rights both ways with that and there has to be just compensation I think the legal question is why couldn't we just complete the process like we did other portions of PE have and assume title okay yeah at this point I could I'll answer that your first question I I've been doing this 30 something can you please step up to the microphone oh yeah yeah doing this 30 years um not the first time I've seen this okay it it happens PR frequently happened in Petersham happened in Templeton it happens more often than you think I don't I don't know if I spoke to you no sorry your predecessor I'm not surprised it happens a lot it happens a lot and the only thing attorney Pelini found was um down towards I believe it was Florence Street there's an old 1911 taking your book 262 page 49 that's the only taking he found from PI so I'll gladly get the complete abstract and get it I mean usually when an attorney gives an opinion letter you know that's what he relies on the but it's up to you if you want you want the whole thing we'll get you appreciate that just have Town Council look at it and then so we're all on the same page Town Council now we this process I no problem that that's what he identified as the need in this process now to resolve that and put it to bed so no problem there not a thank you great um but you understand my concern right I mean if there's six house addresses on a road that's not technically owned by the town then they're not legally they're not legal houses it's a it's two I'm sorry you got two different so if you're going we do just for the sake of the recording no if you're going to speak I do need you at the microphone that's all I like get my back to be Bulls yeah in this case sure it's just what the setup requires so there's there's there's two issues the first issue is we can't finding in the registry that says you took this portion okay the second issue is the town according to your records has accepted this street right so you know it's a little bit of a legal conundrum which can probably be resolved one way or the other I just have to identify this because this helps us in relation to having our parking all in one lot to comply with your bylaw so the parking for Il Forno correct okay that's what this this this packing is for El Forno so it sounds like you're going to I'll I'll I'll I'll hold off thank you all right um so for the so I'm going to just address the people watching at home the town's people here as well to say You're going to hear me ask some questions about the process uh how the town should H I am really bad at legal speak so we're going to just pretend I'm good at it and and wave it and it'll have to be okay um however the town was in theory supposed to do this that the applicant says we did not I'm going to some questions about that process um when I do things like that sometimes concerns get brought up saying hey why are you taking the applicants attorney's word on it and the answer is I'm asking the applicants attorneys to speak because they're the attorney who's present um Town Council as you've heard is involved in this so I don't want uh the town's people to think at any point that while I'm asking you questions that that's going to be oh sure no that that's why lawyers exist have to educate us we can make decisions but then our lawyer is going to check verify come back and have those legal discussions is appropriate could you please walk us through the process by which the town should have taken Pier have and well I I taken I I guess as a techn could you please walk us through the process by which the town would have taken Pierce AV and where you are claiming the town did not get Pierce AV so there's this's there's two ways that a town can end up with a road or a street the first is by a deed and you'll see this a lot of times when you do a subdivision the the developer will retain the fee interest in the road he'll build out the project right and then at the end of the project he'll ask that the town accept a deed and he'll take the deed right the method is Emin a domain or a taking where the town actually does a petition and they take the road and they do a layout and then it goes a town meeting gets voted on and then they take all of that and they record the registry of deeds with a layout and that's you're taking there's no Deeds from anybody in the chain of title for pier sa to the town of lunenberg that we can find MH there's votes at the Town Hall about taking different sections of piav but those are never solidified or recorded at the registry of deeds that we can find so those so answer your question Mr chairman those are the two ways either you get a deed or you do a take and if I could super simplify your argument just for the sake of understanding for most people your argument is the town voted and said we're going to grab it and then never actually grabbed it that's what that's what we've determined okay great and again it's not I've seen this you know a couple of other times yeah um as I want to make sure that we're all in my experience when we start to get into this it can be tricky and we start we on the board or Town's people or y'all who are more verse in this in a technical sense can start talking past each other and I want to try to avoid that in this because it's confusing um okay I could put it a different way the legislative body decided that they wanted to do something and the executive dropped the ball I I I I think that sounds potentially feasible I don't know the exact process and how we're how some of that gets divided but I I hear what you're saying um I mean I'll also be the first to say as I'm sitting here being neutral on an emotional level it feels real weird that we've kind of owned a road for a hundred years but don't but uh I guess that's why lawyers exist too to clarify that um I'd look for again comment or questions from the board on any aspect of this before I turn out for public comment I I would I would mention that the the ownership of pierce a has while it does uh come up in the discussion of the site plan approval and the storm water management it's really in the hands of Town Council mhm so but I'm just I'm just suggesting that we don't get too deep in the Weeds on on that but that's just my two sense fair enough that's fair that's just my two sents n that's fair I'm not the chair no I hear I hear you on that I I want to make sure we have a thorough understanding because we at some point we make decisions to act and I want to and that I I don't think for a second think that will be tonight there's too many other moving parts but I want to make sure that we are going into that as educated in all aspects as possible um in case there is uncertainty or wiggle room and we have to make a call at some point sounds like a lot of this may be decided or UND Others May Come to an understanding inform us of what the legal situation is I agree with that thoughts or comments or questions from the board um just to continue with the simplifying and making sure I'm understanding everything essentially what we're looking at here is the claim is that this is now between Il Forno and the uh 6 acre parcel is one being treated as one parcel with a private road going through it correct I I I would call it a private road it's a it's a road I think we have to figure out exactly what the what call it but just you know DNA lunenberg owns both sides derc fee statute yeah it merges in the middle and it's one lot okay thank you Mr chair question of the applicant regarding the presentation uh the request for Relief on the setbacks and speaking with the Building Commissioner we have yeah please we haven't been able to identify where the planning board has the authority to wave that that's usually a variance that comes from the zba it's a dimensional control so we're having trouble in the regulations identifying where the planning board can do that okay I will review that and get back to you thank you that Revenue great it looks like for now uh those of us up here are done with initial questions um I'm guessing do you have anything else to present to us at this moment uh not at this moment um like I said before you know we're waiting peer review for the storm water design and other aspects and we have a couple comments from department heads as well as your planner uh so we're just here right now to gather information so that we can address them appropriately great um in that case I will uh turn to the public and see if you have questions if you do I'm going to ask you to so what you're going to do is that you're going to come up if that is difficult for you we can turn to our friends in the TV booth and get a mobile microphone app so if you're someone who getting up is going to be a challenge just give me a thumbs up when it's time and I'll make sure we get a microphone out to you otherwise I would ask you to come up when you come up you're going to say your name and your address for the record and then you'll ask your questions um uh it looks like this is a really chill group looking to understand but I will remind us that we're here to be and that's the expectation I don't think that's going to be a problem tonight but I'd like to throw that out when there's this many people in the room um great but I think we have people that are interested in come uh you first please good evening Michael lovewell 579 Reservoir Road also the owner of 480 Electric Avenue and 15 kby Avenue and I think I'm here maybe not for the we when I got the notice it was for the 494 property and I'm here to concern some frustrations that we've had with our the applicant about some drainage issues and some noise concerns and I've been to the building department and the building and he had said that anytime there's a meeting please come and voice your concerns that's the only way you're going to get heard so I have the tenants from 15 but I don't know if that's really why we're here tonight I think this is here for the property which I thought was 500 Electric Avenue it used to always be 500 Electric Avenue but maybe it isn't anymore but um so I'm just here for some frustrations that it's been a over a year that the applicant and our neighbor has um he he just refuses to to do some things for us and uh won't won't hear the neighbors and um there's noise concerns at the new building that was built next to um the current restaurant so I think I'm actually here not for the right timing okay so what I I will explain um there's a couple components here for site plan review um we are limit as as you're Gathering we are somewhat Limited in scope in that we are looking at very concrete specific requirements that eventually lead to our approval or denial uh or whatever the technical term is on the application um it is public comment you are welcome to speak I'm not really in the business of silencing people but by the uh but now do we have I have to is this storm water as well yes okay so drainage issues would definitely be something worth speaking to because that is uh with a a storm water plan that could very potentially come into play okay um if you wish to share any other concerns you are welcome to I can't tell you how much of that will directly factor in but you have the microphone right now so it's basically when that building was first proposed there was never any gutters on that building and then at the end of the build gutters appeared on the property on when we say the building you mean the new the addition and um they directly pour into 15 the rare of 15 kby Avenue and we have videos I showed the building inspector of water just funneling through the wall and flooding that property and the tenants are here too and they can verify this and the and I've asked Mr Mohammad a couple of times s you know you need to take care of this and it's never been taken care of so I thought tonight this would be an opportunity to maybe say something where I could maybe get something done and then we have a noise concern over there with um you know he's got live entertainment in there now and um you know the neighbors they have concerns with um with the noise it's so close you know the problem there is it's a commercial property and and believe me I have the car business there and when I came in front of these boards 40 years ago the biggest concern was was be courteous to your neighbors mhm and that is one thing that my brother and I we really do and you can see there's a lot of people from that little area out back here in whm it's a tight-knit little area and you know you got to be you know very cautious with you know the business that you do with your neighbors cuz they live there we go home at night they live you know they live there so we have concerns about you know the noise and and things like that so that's that's why we're here okay um being realistic I'm not certain that noise will be able to factor in here uh I I don't think so yeah but uh I I think what you're coming also before us is telling you is what you're doing is coming before us and also telling us that you're having issues with storm water runoff directly onto property that you own correct um great then that is good to know and you've given the addresses and everything so we have that on the record as well thank you very much wonderful thank you so much if I um I know there were other yes please uh George Oliver 33 Wallace Park I just had to uh get my mind wrapped around the the big picture CU apparently there's two plots and one is for a building and the other is a parking lot and uh I have looked at some of the maps and I stop by and thumb through the pile and I just wanted to make sure that I I'm clear one's got a building and the other is uh 80 something parking spaces and there's a a buffer they shall not ever meet there's no way you can drive through is that correct as far as I can see on the map I I would turn to the from the building to the 80 parking spaces you cannot get there you have to go I will ask you to speak while at the microphone I just because then people at home in the recording don't have you if you're not at the microphone okay so so that being the case is 88 parking spaces uh basically being in a bar we'd be worried about uh light pollution what type of Cobra lamps are you putting up buffer and uh is there a covenant in place that prevents egis a second uh or is it just at one spot on piab I have no clue and the statements that it was undeveloped and kind of really it was uh basically he been used for 15 something years from all the neighborhood I mean they could actually put a claim on it if you think about it because even though it's undeveloped constant use and that back and as uh I just was worried about the buffer defined buffer and there's no traffic uh city of lemonster are they involved they did with the condos they have cut back on one entrance but nothing could return back so I find this interesting how they have a youu and uh lemona may say have have something about it how how is that going to pan out and once again egis on the side streets for 88 parking is kind of alarming and there's only one entrance hopefully it stays one entrance but then why would you need 88 spes and uh I'm just we defined buffer 2 feet and you know there massive trees here it's a wall it's it's and it keeps the the noise and the light down right now it looks like wrigly field with with the restaurant parking lights in the wrong direction they do have some some um I know dampeners on it but they're all you could see it you know quar mile away and it blinds the cars when you come up the street I can't imagine with 88 parking I was just looking at just one I don't know how uh the bylaws deal with lights at this point and that's all I have I just great no just uh define basically Define the the buffer uh Are we almost guarantee there won't be more erress in the in the parking and then is uh where's the traffic study M that's all great um and I'm going to invite the applicant to answer some some of those questions what I do want to point out is anything on the topic of a claim that others might have a right to that land is not the domain of this board that is other legal proceedings that individuals could choose or not to do that I don't understand but that isn't our domain here so that isn't something I can we can really address but okay uh so that there was a couple items on that one so I'm going to just I know I kind of glanced over the parking configuration a little bit too much and I apologize to the board for that and the public so let me just kind of do an overview of the parking layout so uh because of der fee everything is one giant lot um so as we're showing right now we're maintaining the travel path along Pierce AB so there is continued access through that um we're reconfiguring the parking at the 494 property to become zoning compliant part of that is incorporating 88 parking spaces immediately in front of the building to meet those requirements uh so we are providing the required Ada parking uh based on the total number of of parking spaces allocated to that building use if you will all right so those are immediately along the uh front edge of the building that's where all Ada will occur from there the Surplus parking necessary for the business is located along for lack of a better term the opposite side of Pi AV uh we have a loop configuration uh so there's only one means of egress onto the Pierce a from the parking lot area what is shown is what's proposed we're not expecting to expand upon that obviously if we do we have to come before this board and various other boards in order to get that to work if you will so there's one means of ESS which we have located closer to the intersection with electric AV to get it get the majority of this commercial traffic component away from the residential inclined properties uh so that's one of the reasons why we've done that um I can say based on the design it would be very difficult to get another access point along Pierce AB only because of the topography change that has to occur uh from the parking lot to make storm water management work for lack of a better term um the parking on the opposite side of Pier AV will utilize a uh new concrete sidewalk that will run run along the perimeter of the uh parking along electric AV side uh this will then lead to a crosswalk at Pierce AV so that uh patrons can come from that parking lot in a designated location so there's no Meandering of pedestrians and the roadway system it's in one defined location and that would go from the parking lot through a a painted crosswalk to the actual business use itself uh so that's the parking configuration um I think there was concern about uh light spill we did provide a photometric analysis as part of our submittal package showing that there's uh we're containing the lighting within our development we're not doing any additional light shine beyond the limits of work uh so that was provided for review by the board um I don't unfortunately have a copy of you know a rendering of that with me tonight if the board has concerns about that I can provide it but we did provide that as part of our submission package and that's what we already have that was all part of the application and so that's also a matter of public record that anyone else can go in get those documents and look at the when we say photo photometric analysis that's effectively the plan for where the light's going to shine if I could and I'll it's effectively like that it's just shows the intensity of the lighting levels on the property um I will say that we've done uh nice Sky compliant lighting as required by most municipalities so we are providing compliance with that um and we're maintaining a lower level light just because of the residentially inclined area it's not a going to be a shopping plaza light up the entire world level but there is enough to maintain safe pedestrian uh movement within the parking lot during nighttime hours all right um thank you very much for that no problem and um well I also appreciate that that that explains to me why cuz I looked at it I'm like oh it's kind of interesting there's that that kind of hookout from the big parking lot to go to Pier have why was that and now I hear you explain because that kind of keeps the traffic as far away from the residential parts of the road of that road as feasible do I understand that correctly all right and um and so when you talked about just to paraphrase again all the all the Ada parking but what a lot of us would commonly call the handicap spaces in normal in like everyday parlaments are all near the building on that side of the road as required etc etc correct great okay um I will turn to the public again and see if there's other uh public comment please my name is Janine Cooper I live at 43 the clearing I bought my house in '92 and at that point there was no flooding at the end of um claring Street in lure and Pierce since they Disturbed that parking lot at this point any kind of rain that Basin floods leure is a a river and every time they disturb that or and I mean it is a for 3 days after every rain it is raining it it is a complete River so I'm very concerned about them and what they're doing in that parking lot and what they propose so I'd like to how are they going to make sure that this doesn't get worse thank you Mr chair may I respond at this point to the public through the you to the the folks here um we want you to know or I want you to know that regardless of whether or not you're here and involved in the public hearing there are Town guidelines design standards and storm water standards that we apply that we require and we're going through that process we have a peer review consultant he reviews all the plans and we're going to make sure that all the plans meet all a the the zoning bylaws would be the will of the town the zoning bylaw is at the town meeting passed to protect you and that the planning board is the authority uh to watch over so we're going to be going through that process but your input is important and you have a say and so if there's particular things that you want to see in the way of buffer or fence or anything like that I I'll just tell you somebody in this job for 30 years vegetation doesn't do it vegetation doesn't stop noise noise is a line of sight impact so you need a solid surface a wall or a fence so if there are those kind of things that are impacting you right now this is the opportunity to improve this situation and they are going to invest in the property and improve it so please by all means if there are things you think cuz you're living there and you see it and you know your neighborhood better than anyone the planning board wants to know that and and they want to consider that in terms of what gets required when this is approved so just want to put that out there to the folks F in the neighborhood thank you thank you uh just to speak on storm water like I said uh we are complying with the local regulation as well as the state regulation it's going through peer review um just so the public is aware because this is a um if you're not familiar with the term uh the terminology of storm water it can be kind of confusing uh so just I want to give the public just a brief overview of what we do uh so what we do is we look at predevelopment uh conditions of the land land uh cover types and soil types all that kind of fun stuff and apply that to figure out flow rates and volumes and stuff like that under the current regulations we're required to provide mitigation of that so that we do not exceed the pre-existing condition uh So currently everything flows towards the Wetland that's located on the uh Westerly portion of the site uh before it enters into the mpal drage system um as part of this our storm water design and uh improvements uh we're utilizing two uh detention facilities in order to detain and uh effectively the flow rates coming from the property so that they're at or below the existing rates um the storm water bylaw within this town has an additional level of protection where you have to retain 1 in per uh square foot of the impervious area which is being provided via an infiltration Basin closer to the bottom of the site uh so what we do is we treat capture uh retain a portion of it and allow it to disch charge at a slower rate than what's currently going there now uh so um pre-existing condition unfortunately is a pre-existing condition uh but the development that we're intending is to mitigate our immediate impacts from that area put another I want to make sure that this might be a less friendly way of stating it but put another way the water flow now is the water flow now you are you are required to fix the problems that would be created by the development but not what's going on now correct so as part of our pre-analysis we looked at it as it is today so we do acknowledge there has been some clearing along the frontage uh it's now been converted from a new growth Woodland to a more gravel based packed area so we are taking into that consideration our impacts from that and mitigating that appropriately could we say that one step closer to Everyday English for me uh like I I understood every word but I don't know that I'm fully wrapping my mind on the concept so we're taking a look at the cumulative impacts from this area over the years and applying that as our pre-existing condition so that our development is below that threshold okay and that's going to be also again peer-reviewed with the town's engineer as well make sure our analysis makes sense okay thank you please if I can just really quickly um we don't have anything that says like our hands are kind of tied when it comes to storm water like we we can only mandate that it is up to original conditions we don't have the ability to say we want you to improve this space well this is where I pick it my head to the right and go yeah I would say there's a lot of opportunity to improve the existing condition they're in site plan review before the permitting Authority so we're going to be working with them addressing existing problems which I'm I'm pretty sure were not originally approved uh when the the building was built in the first place so do we want to go down the road of enforcement of whatever the pre-existing condition is no we want to work with the applicant to improve it for the neighborhood and address the problems I would suspect they would want to too so this is the opportunity to do that and that's what we'll expect in the process great thank you and thank you for your patience thank you my name is Steven Court I live at 15 Kirby tenant of Michael lwell so a few concerns of in regard to the ownership of Pier have of the city or what have you so if from what I've understood in the past with uh PRI you regard to like private roads when they're plowed in the winter time if it's a private road it's up to the tenants or the uh folks that own the property along the road to have their Road plowed is it not legally and technically if you're director I mean please give an example Dana Avenue before was considered a private road a friend of mine used to live on it they us have to pay to have that road plowed what happens is um in responsible towns is uh it's a private road so the legal responsibility is the private property owners on that private road however because they say we pay taxes to the town the town acquiesces and they use the town's equipment on that road to maintain it as though it were an accepted public way that's what happens but the town does not have a legal obligation obligation okay and so that's basically what's happening with Pier have it yes okay I think the town believed that it was accepted properly right that now is in dispute that yeah um the other concern is too that I don't know who the contractors were that put up the additional building at Il Forno but if it's the same contractors I definitely have concern regard to runoff storm drainage because of um I have here a video um before or you can show now for him to show us a video it would also have to be submitted into the public record correct yep okay and what's the I just want to make sure again crossing our te's dotting our eyes is that something he can then forward by email or how does that get yes he could he could for that to okay the board you can show us a video but it has to also be sent for because we're discussing it as part of a public hearing that file has to then be available as part of the public Rec okay no not a problem honey can you help me find again and I lost it it's fine sorry she's a lot more technical than I am yep understood it's almost there why you getting that up is this something you've brought to the attention of town officials before Building Commissioner has it been documented in any way I can't find it again here I'll find it yeah it was um and it wasn't the first time we dealt with this so if I may yeah I might suggest excuse me since they certainly they've already expressed they not looking for an approval tonight um this was going to continue so that's yeah that's fair so a copy of that yeah so I do apologize no no wor so what you can do is don't stress it we're not and Mr Allison raised an excellent point we're not approving anything tonight we're still you're here to speak the applicants here to speak they're here to listen we're here to listen to ask questions this is not an instantaneous process so what I think we'll ask is if you could because also that way we can see it correctly if you could take that file send it to the land use director okay and then we can watch it and uh it may speak for itself you may also come to another meeting or even just call in by Zoom or send an email explaining it then we have it as the as the record we have the ability to view on our machines and get a better view of what you're discussing so we can go in more fully equipped and then the applicant will have it as well because it's all public record gotcha all right is that amendable for you that is amendable thank you gentlemen appreciate your time thank you um and again as we're talking about piav I just again want to be clear this is largely something for the lawyers to hash out as everyone reviews everything it doesn't mean you shouldn't speak on it by all means you were welcome to but you're not going to see that part of the decision making is very likely out of our hands as a board I'm not saying don't speak to it I just again I want to set expectations please my name is Linda Hy I actually live on pier at 20 Pier sou my concerns are what kind of wall is going to be built because like I said I'm right across from the parking lot I don't want any kind of cheap Scot um Stockade or anything like that so I'm hoping something is going to be built well um my other concerns and everybody's been talking about it it's a very high water level I want to make sure that whatever they do for that water it they they understand because my Su pump runs all winter long it's very high water level so I want to make sure those concerns that's one of my major concerns I don't need more water coming in my house um right now I know he talked about the lights that are going into the parking lot but right now those lights come right into my house I don't put shades on the front windows I have six windows in front I'm not going to start closing those every night and put them up every morning I don't care who can see in but those lights are beaming they got to put some kind of cover there's got to be some kind of something that they can do right now with these Bright Lights it it's just awful um and also right across the street from my house is my water shut off to my house so if they start clearing out some of those trees and everything I want to make sure that they understand that when they survey because lunenberg doesn't own it but I get my water from lemonster so that is coming through lemonster I want to make sure that they know that my water shut off is there I don't need that damaged and um and that's it but the main concern is the high level water and what kind of w wall is going to be built because I don't want anything cheesy I don't want to look out my front window and um right now I wish I would do something with about the lights great thank you very much I'm going to give the applicant a chance to both respond to some of the questions as well as anything else thank you all right great thank you um so relative uh storm water issues are noted uh from previous comment um we'll review the lighting issues and relative to the fence type along the um parking lot that's going to be a solid wall vinyl fence so it's not going to be a stock it's going to be a vinyl it's a little bit higher quality than we would believe a stock fade would be uh but we are at the discretion of the board but that being said that's it great thank you Michael Cooper 43 to the clearing Street um L fornal does a fantastic business they're crowded every day that they're open it must be it's good stuff we eat there too it's not a concern about that our concerns are like everyone else has already said the water the amount of water that we have right now is just ridiculous if the town isn't fixing that how are they going to let somebody else come in and and just do there and not add to ours get that but it's going to it has to there's no way around it our calverts take a day two days to empty out they fill up within the first hour or two they're not even working some of them are broken so as far as the the town allowing somebody else to put new drainage and stuff maybe we should fix what we have so we don't have that problem and then their ability to do their job won't affect us but there's no way anything can happen there and not affect us it just it can't it doesn't matter how big of a container you put it's going to flow over into our properties and the reason they bring that up is when whm was taken down and the condos were put up that's when our flooding started all that water that we have comes from over there and it just washes right down to our one little area everybody in the neighborhood used to have dry Basin we do not know no one I'm not I'm not doubt I'm not doubting that I'm just trying to proc cuz in my mind that the side opposite the condos where we're talking about is uphill mhm the condos are on a hill from the condos is that right or the condos higher condos are higher than us okay great all right so all that water comes down and it you know it just makes its way across the area that they're going to redevelop is great as long as the water doesn't come to us so that is my biggest concern uh my second concern would be the traffic um coming in on Pierce AV that is a very small Road um to begin with um it's already packed with the traffic that comes from everybody trying to skirt the light we've tried stop signs and stuff we've been working with the DPW a little bit and they put up a couple new stop signs but the amount of traffic coming in on psf it would be make more sense for us that if people were jumping off of electric a and pulling into the parking lot and then walking over to the store I mean to the restaurant it's just too much PV is not big enough to handle that amount of traffic mhm and uh you know I don't know what the exact business is but I would say it's at least 100 cars a night that come and go there that's a lot especially when you live in a little neighborhood like ours it's very very tight and the last one would be the lighting again um currently the lighting that's coming off the back of the building lights up the entire Street I don't know how the neighbors handle it um it's extremely bright and I know that's not what the proposal is about but it needs to you know it's part of going forward it needs to be fixed so those are our big concerns as you can see it's the water and we're already hence the pun we're underwater all right it's uh it's it's ridiculous and to add to that is just not going to be better and I can't imagine if he's if their job is to only make it so it doesn't add more to ours or you know except something's got to be fixed on the on the back side MH it can't be because it's already low standard does that make sense yes it does yeah it's the the standard there is already too low so their standard's going to be low that's not going to work for us so that's it great thank you thank you if the applicant wants to talk to any points there there there was a I am curious why because the raised the point um why is the entrance for the the new parking lot um on piev instead of on electric I mean that's clearly a conscious Choice I'm curious what it is uh it was primarily ex just to get the traffic off of electric Gap because it is indeed a very busy road um I drive it on a regular basis um and we're just trying to get that turning Maneuvers off of electric GB as much as humanly possible uh with that being said we can reevaluate but our initial interpretation is that it's a safer option to go off a piav where everything gets concentrated already than to introduce another opening so close to Pierce have itself MH so I have a question um I hear a lot of concern about increased traffic um I I've made some assumptions here but I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly there's no is there any change happening that would my understanding of this is this big parking lot should be effectively AB absorbing a lot of the on street parking and everything else that happens now correct is there something happening that would cause the overall traffic flow to the business to potentially increase now I know there's also the separate building on the other part of the lot we haven't really talked about that um is there something happening here that I don't fully understand that would potentially be causing an increase in over in overall traffic volume to the restaurant uh no at this point in time it's the intent to remain or maintain the current seating level in the structure the uh project is precipitated from the fact that the parking doesn't work and that we have traffic issues on street parking General mishap of parking in that area that's what's precipitating this proposal great I can speak to that if you like I mean we did the permit for the um that modular building excuse me it was a covid relief kind of a thing like kind of like the second floor on that lak front building we required them to maintain their pre-existing uh capacity now that CO's passed it's no longer an outdoor building I can foresee that yeah as as the applicant's engineer says there's no current plan but as soon as they get the approval on this one they've got 80s something spots and they've got an existing 40-some spots that meet the current requirement and that was part of the reason that we couldn't allow them to expand without keeping their current capacity for the building so now if they're going to double their parking spaces they're I mean you'd be a not to believe that they intend to come back and ask for Relief on that previous permit nothing against you of course but you know it's just kind of common sense so I'm trying to I'm thinking through and um I know cuz I was also on the board when that when that the permit came in because there was an outdoor tent dining and this building was was built effectively because it was going to mirror the use that was already happening on the property I'm trying to remember um because by then I think we had the new parking guidelines I'm trying to think of that seems like something we would have checked I'm trying to figure out why like what the steps were I don't remember if you were doing that project or not okay that was me please so um again this is many many years ago so I apologize for the fuzziness uh but originally there was a tent structure there part of the co uh dining issues that we all experienc back then um the purpose of the um additional structure was to create a much more permanent figure um while maintaining the existing seat count the idea being that with the additional area for seating the space the tables and everything like that can be spaced out more appropriately um but the uh parking configuration remained intact um everything remained intact minus the exception that we put a building up it is that what is that what it was was effectively the tent was expand was de was not an increase in seating but a de crowding of the seating for lack of a better term yes okay all right so that would be why we could approve it because it wasn't an increase in seating but I think you rais a point as well with so this the the new lot how roughly how many spaces is that adding beyond what is needed for the restaurant to be up to current parking guidelines I'll take back on the napkin math on that one I'm just trying to get a 40 I think there's existing 45 spaces from recollection and I think that might have been two more than they really absolutely needed well see I I feel like they came in saying that the park number of parking was not sufficient by current standards but that was pre-existing non-conforming plus it was Co relief and it was a tent and then we put up a Morton Building and we well they didn't increase seating with the tent though they just exactly so the capacity didn't change yeah right correct the pre-existing nonconforming condition was relative to Geometry so a lot of the parking spaces on a busy night would become effectively very difficult to get into and people don't feel comfortable parking their cars like that that's where the non-conforming component of it comes into play um and I just found and I'll Circle back to the parking requirements uh based on the total permanent seating of 134 with a 15 15 employee uh Max shift you're looking at a total parking requirement of 60 spaces as shown we're at 119 on dedicated to that in order to accommodate the influx that we see on larger events okay all right fair so Mr Allison I think you raised a good point uh of the potential unintended consequences yeah and previous member love to say that it's it's worth us I don't know if that's something we fully can judge on but I think it's worth being aware as we're building what that could mean all right great thank you could I make a little tangential Town advertisement about storm water yeah um this this isn't for you this is just for people in general um everybody talking about storm water um sometime in the next 6 months what you might see on the town is advertisements for what we're calling a storm water utility same as you've got electrical utility uh sewer water uh the town is looking to create a storm water utility so that we have a dedicated Force who instead of just having our um Town Depot occasionally do storm water stuff when they can we'll have a dedicated Force whose job every day is improving and expanding and maintaining our storm water task force so keep an eye out about 6 months we'll start advertising it sometime next year we'll be looking to vote on it and hopefully uh improve the town a bit so important for people who looking at storm water problems yeah for those who don't uh follow planning board or Capital planning for that matter cuz it takes up a lot of capital planning too a surprising amount of this role of this volunteer job is taking water that's supposed to be in the ground and isn't and get it and help make sure it gets into the ground um and that's an increasing concern with environmental changes and everything else I always like to sort uh site the meeting that we had here where I had to pause as chair to go make sure my car was not floating away in the lower lot because that would have been awkward um when we were that was the storm that washed out lemonster um no so what I'm and I'm not looking to cut off public comment because I want to make sure your voices are heard and recorded they're on the record we're hearing a lot of concerns about water thank you um I I believe that will be an absolute Focus for us um we hear concerns about noise and we hear concerns about the existing lighting and how the new lighting will function as well uh I'm not saying you can't speak to those but those are the what I'm hearing as the three big points so far uh if there's other public comment we welcome it please may want to mention the raiseed hand feature because it looks like there's a good number of people oh yes thank you y um as well for the our friends at home if you do want to make a public comment uh do you use that raised hand feature uh Mr oconnell is watching zoom and we'll know if you raise your hand and we'll make sure we get you in the C to speak my name is Kathy Oliver and I live in 33 Wallace Park and my concern it was already mentioned it was about the traffic mhm the traffic my Street's little and the traffic comes down that street and cuts through my street all day long it's absolutely ridiculous there times I can't even pull out of my driveway and it's almost like should some of these streets be one way I mean if they're going to have all this traffic come down PIR Street where are they all going to go They're not going to go all the way down to the end they're going to take the first two streets they can that's my concern all right that's it thank you uh Terry green 28 the clearing Street um mine's about the parking and that traffic as well into the neighborhood um on a really good night where the restaurant sits currently a lot of the patrons don't go straight up to 13 they cut across peers to go on to 13 so if I'm coming home at night trying to pull down to peers to get to my road I've almost been T-boned um I get the finger a lot because they feel it's part of of their parking lot is piav so now you're talking about another egress from the bigger parking lot onto piav to put more traffic on there I just feel it's an accident waiting to happen a lot of accidents waiting to happen I would rather see them even with their current parking lot shut off their access to P Pierce AV because there's just too much coming across now say I mean I have a grandson who's 14 who goes to the basketball courts if he goes around that way if there's too many cars coming in so many directions I feel someone's going to get hit so that's my big concern I mean the water that we've talked about is also a concern cuz my some pumps run 24/7 I also where I live behind the baseball field they put that other apartment complex so now we get more water from there so there's a lot of water in that area but no one's really talked about that traffic pattern that I think everything should go on to 13 I can't come into our neighbor cuz if you think my street is called the clearing for a reason cuz you can't pass two cars going in opposite directions so you add more traffic on there it's going to be a disaster that's my two cents all right thank you and I do want to know I said there were three things yeah no traffic has hurt as well um very much so I I had initially put that lower in my own mind because I was trying to understand how the increase but I hear the concerns and I think the board does please engineer Mike lovewell 579 Reservoir Road is this property in the whm overlay District I'd like also to ask if this wasn't part of the required area for the 241 units at whum I thought that there was something to do with that in this parcel it was correct you're correct I thought so but so when they did the overlay District back in the time I'm really surprised that they overlooked that piav taking at that time because right there would be some serious you know work was done to do that um the other question I have is are you can Recon figuring the current lot at 494 electric a for the engineer question um I do need you to speak at to the microphone so oh I'm sorry yeah so it is within the waym overlay District um we're not utilizing any of the overlay components um and relative to the 494 parcel we are reconfiguring the parking layout uh removing areas of pavement um as many of the um you know public members have mentioned that that area is a doesn't have a controlled traffic flow at all like straight out no there's no traffic control by us reconfiguring the parking on 494 what we're doing is we're restricting the parking to be or the access points along the roadway systems into defin locations so that people can perform their appropriate turning Maneuvers in and out of the site um on the 494 uh we are reconfiguring that parking and by default we're restricting the access point so that currently there's a broad open curbo cut if you will so anybody can go anywhere they want with this design we're restricting that to one point along electric AV and one along Pierce AV and turning that existing pavement area into Green Space for additional Landscaping so so my concern to that is actually for the 480 electric property we had to when we first um black topped we had to Black Top the front part part of it and put a Swale in there to alleviate the water runoff from 494 so it would go across the front and down into a drain um I I don't see any any I don't see any drainage or anything I'm sure you must have drainage calculations for that lot and and I don't see any uh snow storage excuse me [Music] so this uh snow storage is shown on the plan around the Landscaping areas uh it's primarily located in the front Landscaping Island that I just told you about that we're converting from pavement to that uh we're installing curbing along the limits of work um in order to redirect the runoff around the property and into the gutter line of electric C uh we did do storm Water Analysis and the gutter flow within electric a is a design point one of the points various points we evaluate as part of our analysis and we show because we're reducing the amount of payment on the property we're showing a reduction in rats of flow to that gutter flow okay thank you y and for those who aren't sitting here all the time water can't soak through pavement I mean under normal circumstances yeah Runs run run off on pavement it can infiltrate get get into the ground through soil based on a myriad of factors but when they uh you'll hear that a lot at playing board meetings talking about how much pavement or how much impervious there is um to get basically because that can be an issue for water getting into the ground where we want it not on top of the ground or you know in our driveways or wherever um all right other public comment hi my name is uh DAV zck 39 Wallace Park um which is basically on the pier Street Corner um also have a driveway that is connected that's on Pier Street the way the veloc anyways same as my neighbors a lot of water especially in basements and where like the proposed parking lot now the water currently crosses Pierce and down the driveway between houses and you know so is there any plan for maybe more storm basins or catch basins on Pierce um depending who owns it and my other couple of questions on the map can the planner kind of point out you mentioned um the there is wetlands in a proposed area for possible future Housing Development like where is the housing part of that and and as far as the storm water goes where are the catch basins you talked about and you know is there how is the parking lot for the larger parking lot where's the do you know where the flow of water is it being graded towards Electric Avenue and out or towards Pierce Avenue new and out thank you thank you so um relative to the layout of the um the storm water components if you will uh all the impervious that's associated with the parking lot areas that we're developing are being captured uh 494 currently Overland flows as I stated earlier we're reducing the impervious which offsets that um the reconfiguration uh the storm water within the development is being captured by several deep sump catch basins that are spread throughout the property or without throughout the development in the parking lot area to capture the runoff that directs all the runoff into a detention Basin which then discharges to an existing Swale where the old railroad bed used to be uh and that directs itself towards the Wetland towards the bottom portion of the site um before that it gets and then it gets into the municipal system within the piav infrastructure if you will uh so that's again that's all part of the review as with the peer reviewer to make sure that what we're proposing is in the best interest of the bylaw and the acts uh so we look forward to their comment uh we have noted various that all the concerns of the butters relative to storm water so that is you know very front forward in our minds at this point in time uh so I think at that point you know we can address that with the peer reviewer to make sure that we're doing the right thing and not trying to circumvent any kind of bylaw great thank thank you I think Mr chair if uh the public satisfied they provided all their input at this point the board um may want to consider continuing to a date certain so that the peer reviewer can submit their report they uh um are online they have the plans the applicants paid the fee um so they're already engaged I will need a motion and vote authorize them engineering for a $5,000 peer review which is the estimate of his scope to proceed um so that would be my recommendation at this point and then we can get more information to to know um how we're going to address the Public's concerns no I think I think that's completely fair I just want to make sure that is there any other public comment uh especially if something hasn't been addressed so before we go on I want to say I hear a lot of frustration out there and I see a lot of lacking a better just being frank y'all have the ability to be very polite while expressing your Grievances and uh that a that isn't common um so people aren't always as polite as they could be at public meetings or in life so thank you for that and I don't want you to think your politeness makes your words less impactful um no absolutely I think we've got a lot of info again uh there's been a lot of public input there's some aspects like the legal nature of piav that's going to be hashed out most likely by lawyers we'll continue this please stay involved as long as you're concerned follow come here chime in through Zoom we want to hear from you because I ideally this can be a collaborative process that gets your needs met and the applicants needs met in a way that can be good for the entire Community there um yeah if unless there's anything else from the board um do we know what date would be uh good to continue to we've only got one meeting in November and that would be the appropriate grades enough to respond yeah certainly he's already got the plan so just a motion of vote to authorize peer review by Graves for 5,000 just procedurally so we get that on the books okay I have a question I don't believe we've ever made any kind of a vote like that before is that no that that was going to say that's never if that I would really uh recommend and appreciate if the board would start doing that as a practice no that's so we are gen generally happy to meet the land use director where you view those needs as employe uh that isn't something we've done before but if you view that as important you are a resident expert sir that's a statutory uh I will just say it's important yeah yeah there we there we go what I will say about that is there is there there have been applicants who have requested a waiver from that that's okay they can do that I believe it's in our regulations that it it's it's isn't it in our regulations that it's requirement yes they they can request a waiver it's required and they can request a waiver or all or some of it so they they are allowed that and they can appeal the planning board's requirement for that but that's all statutory so we on the side of caution I always recommend to my boards and okay get just get a quick vote on it sounds good authorized I'm just resisting to we only have one peer review or so yeah so you notice uh because we've had interm land use directors for the past year um and now we have Mr uh uh Mr Riley and it is interesting to see different land use directors different planners for the town will have different nuances in terms of exactly which they feel is important how to handle specific things that works great so uh a motion for we would be looking for motion to authorize Graves engineering a super viewer for this application in the amount of 5,000 to start so moved second moved and seconded uh again since we have a member remote we'll be doing a roll call vote Mr McLoud yes Mr Allison hi Mr Wilner hi M Reed I and I for myself great so motion to continue to next uh motion to continue uh the public hearing to as I grab the correct uh to the uh to November 25th at 6:05 p.m. so moved second did I get the date right Logan 11:25 yeah okay moved and seconded all in favor Mr McLoud hi Mr Alon hi Mr Wilner hi M Reed hi and an I from myself and before folks leave the planning department is going to try and get some of these plans online on the planning P web page so be checking there and we'll always make them available to you if you come in but we'll try to make it more accessible so you can review it as information comes in thank Youk you great thank you so much thank you for your interest all right as I realize I that's better that's tonight's [Music] meeting so friends as you as you clear out I will ask you to save your conversations for the downstairs of town hall just because we do have other business and other people we have to get through this [Music] evening next up will be 791 lemonster Road for storm water management permit but we're going to give a moment for everyone to move on out so at this time we are going to be continuing the meeting so if you're having a conversation I'll just ask it to move downstairs downstairs there we go I sound like my 11-year-old there we go that's I just like it when people come to meetings that that makes me happy um it means the Public's engaged it means people care and M Reed uh we have now 791 and 795 are separate public hearings or are they um my understanding when I received these was that they are three discret applications because they are three um separate lots I'm going to be honest if that is not the standard procedure and it could have been one to Encompass all of them that's just not something I would know because there hasn't been um documentation on that you yeah Fair um do we are these all is this one project is this we filed three separate applications one for each lot great so I believe we have to handle them separately yeah there's uh Mr chair no common storm water structures invol so they're all separate entities for the purposes of storm water great understood M Reed if you were available if I mean not available you're here obviously but if you can for a 791 lemonster Road 91 sure uh the lunberg planning board will hold a public hearing on October 28th 2024 at 605 p.m. Town Hall 17 Main Street lunenberg Mass to hear and review an application for storm water management permit pursuant to 2004-1 D of code of the town of Lunenburg as amended at the November 17th 2020 special town meeting by timri realy trust for construction of a single family home on a vacant lot the subject property information the location is 791 lemster Road assessor map 119 parcel 4 Lot 2 owner is Tim Rick realy trust at 81 View Street in fitzburg Mass 01420 materials are viewable at the planning office at 960 Massachusetts Avenue in lunenberg right thank you thank you Mr chair members of the board my name is Ryan Proctor I'm with Dillis Roy civil Design Group uh as mentioned we filed the storm water permit for uh three separate Lots uh individually the board may remember earlier this year in January uh another person from my office appeared before you with an anr plan for the creation of these three lots of the parent parcel which is shown on this exhibit plan on the corner of lemonster Road in Kilburn street so lots one and two are located off of lemonster road on the left and right respective and then lot three is located with a property address on Kilburn uh Kilburn Street the reason we filed three separate applications is because lot two is to be conveyed to an owner of the parent parcel and lots one and three will be conveyed or sold separately so we didn't uh we didn't want to end up with a situation where we had um one stormw permit and a project completion would be contingent on a separate owner and separate contractor potentially finishing work uh so that's why we filed the three applications the way your stmw water bylaw is written in 204 1D is that any project with a cumulative and Collective disturbance of over one acre of disturbance triggers the need for a storm water permit individually none of the Lots exceed one acre of disturbance so lot one is just under 20,000 ft of disturbance lot two is 35,000 ft and lot three is uh under half an acre as well just about 18,000 Square ft but since they were derived from the same property they collectively alter uh about 80,000 square feet so just under 2,000 or two acres excuse me uh which is why we're before you tonight uh it was right into the record at 791 lemon rot is this address we did not have street addresses at the time of filing so all of our documents reference lot two which was per the anr plan that your uh your board endorsed so I'm just going to switch over to our actual site plan for lot two all right while you do that I'm just going to ask a couple questions of the land use director so um I just wanna it sounds like this is totally fine but I just want to make sure we can I know we need as was pointed out since all the work together is over an acre it triggers sight uh not site it triggers storm water even though no individual lot is the work on no individual lot is triggering it is it still cool to have it as three separate applications it yeah and and this is it's a strange trick but nonetheless they are three separate lots for the benefit of the applicant certainly as described um and under our town regulations it's best to have each one of these looked at and dealt with as single Lots with single storm water structures that function for that lot particular lot great I just wanted to make sure we weren't accidentally running a foul of something with the structuring super I have a a follow-up question to the L lers director um so is this a carryon from the previous request of us to ask for a peerreview that we don't have a peerreview already or do we and I'm just not seeing it I think in this case uh you know if you want a peer review then you can go ahead and require it if you see something that you think Rises to that level but I don't think by default you you necessarily need it with single family houses like that if the structure you know is appropriate and the design is appropriate is I think it is it's up it's pleasure of the board whether you want to require peer review We it's not mandatory yeah no I think single one we have had has I think we almost always so I I appreciate that you're the L use director but you're not an engineer and none of us are engineers and so we're just going to take at face value what the applicant engineer has to tell us about it without having our review engineer it's pleasure of the board if you want to require peer review if you see anything that you think needs further analysis than just me as one member I would appreciate that all applications before us get peer reviewed okay so for each one then you need to vote to authorize peer review by Graves for a certain amount so they can't possibly get through storm water permit without two meetings at least and that's if the review can happen between the two meetings yeah that that's a little difficult it's pleasure of the board I'm go with whatever the board the pleasure of the board if the pleasure of the board is that they have a peer review done before they submit to us is that something we can say I think that gets problematic for the uh reason that I mentioned it's a statutory requirement so by law there's a process that should be followed procedurally and that does require under statute assigning a peer review for an amount by motion and vote so becomes problematic if we're doing all that before the public hearing is even opened sure it if if we're always if we always want a peer review are we just making things more difficult by saying you have to come to the first meeting then you have to leave and come back with a peer review because if we're always going to ask for a peer review what are we doing with the first meeting other than making things more difficult for applicants if you want if that's been your practice and you want to continue that then that's what I'll apply yeah I I I think I can't think of a storm water we haven't had peer reviewed can't so and my apologies for kind of interrupting your presentations for this but we're again as we feel out as we feel out the new relationship as it were and figure out how how we work together um yeah cuz I think we have always had peer reviews on storm water there have been site plans much I mean rarely but there have been things like site plans we haven't need anything for sure but I think I can't think of a storm water we haven't wanted the peer review because of the I mean just double-checking the numbers even well not only that I mean we had storm water permit required from 2008 and we didn't actually have our first one until Adam was here your previous your predecessor so we waited eight years after it was on the books after the legislative body said we want to have a storm water permit it took the executive or whatever eight years to follow up on again not your problem you're new and welcome to lunenberg this is yeah so I recommend that get a presentation then you continue to a date certain so we can conduct the peer review but doing it advance of the public hearing I've have not had that experience and I'll do a little background research to make sure I'm not misunderstanding some steps in that that we're not potentially misunderstanding some steps in the process as we as we've done them in the past as well but we can loop back on that for now regardless we have applications before us tonight in the status and we can move forward with that great thank you for your patience thank you all right so uh as I mentioned this uh lot that we're presenting is formerly known as Lot 2 which is 791 lemonster Road the proposed project is a single family house accessed by a short paved driveway it will have a new uh drilled well on the property that service the house and a new sewage Disposal system this lot of the three was the most unique uh we have pered this with the Conservation Commission and the lot area the Upland portion of the site on lemonster road uh there was not adequate space to accommodate a septic design on this particular portion of the site so if I can go over and just point uh to the exhibit plan down on the bottom the proposal for the septic system is to run a force main uh through the Wetland temporarily uh disturb the Wetland restore it and then the sewage Disposal system for lot two would be located on the opposite side of the Wetland in another Upland portion of the site we have permitted that um with the Conservation Commission that did vote to issue an order of conditions I believe we just either received that today or this week um and we have received a permit from the Board of Health as well with respect to the storm water design we are proposing to capture and treat all storm water associated with both the roof area and the paved driveway we have a stone recharge trench along the east side of the driveway and around the building foundation and then we have a small grass whale which storm water will be routed to on the uh to down to the right on the plan uh of the house that will capture storm water and then slowly dis discharge it into a level spreader at the limit of work so those are the two storm water devices that we have again it's just to capture and infiltrate uh and provide treatment of storm water associated with the impervious area on the site that is an overview of the site there's not much else going on on that lot in particular uh if there's any questions on that I would be happy to take them I'm personally just processing the the the plan and everything for a moment um so I see the stone recharge trench going effectively around three sides of the house and down the driveway that's correct everything pitches back away from lemoner Road and ends up in that Wetland system so we're capturing it before it gets there and and runting into our devices help me understand the um is that another recharge trench at the back of the lot there or that's correct so any water that's captured in that sale I can just go point to it if the storage volume in that soil is exceeded it will spill over the stone Spillway uh down just downgraded that and into the level spreader and the thought process in that is that any water that's exceeds that volume would be spread out over a large area rather than having one point discharge which is more prone to erosion and scour God okay I I was thinking the spillway going the other way and it was really conf now that makes total sense okay I get it um yeah I mean personally I I think I get what we're I get what I'm looking at um I still I would personally still want uh peer review just to again make sure because we have had peer review catch miscalculations and everything um but I get it well just excuse me if I may just as an aside uh is is my my experience as a civil engineer uh the the stormwater calculations for the the four year the four different events storm events uh five in lunenberg so we have to do the 50 I think okay which they're usually at least an inch thick we calculated for the uh at least I think the two years three the 8 and half by 11 copy set is usually like an inch thick how can you say that again I'm sorry the storm war of calculations right y they're they're like hundreds of typically 60 80 Pages yeah that's about right y smaller for a side like this look through 60 80 Pages no I I I I say calculations that's probably this is where I'm using my layman terms there's times they come back and go hey you figured this incorrectly and I don't know what we call it when they go hey this wasn't when this when the peer review engineer comes back and goes yeah you said flow rate of X but that kind of setup is going to be a flow rate of Y exactly um no I oh thoughts from the board so if if this was just a one off there would not be a peer review because it was under the if yeah if with the whole stor water in general yeah if this house if this if this were built by itself it would not be a storm waterer not peer review which is just us saying to the town to the engineer uh contracted by the down hey look at this for us um if this were just by itself in isolation uh less than an acre of disturbance then no it would not require storm water but because this is part of a grander project um and that total project disturbs over an acre of land that is what triggers and that is to prevent uh developers from just kind of saying well I'm not doing I'm not doing one 40 acre project I'm doing 50 just slightly under an acre projects or or 40 acres but 40 Projects each disturbing slightly less than an acre because they're all acre lots and we're leaving a fraction of it undisturbed that's to capture that kind of approach could I add one thing to that Mr chair I'm sorry could I add one thing to that please um so that regulation reg relative to land disturbance is specific to lunenberg so per the Massachusetts storm water standards any development of four single family residential homes or less does not trigger the requirement to meet those standards so your land disturbance is is specific to lunenberg that's that's the trigger yes it is you know and that's a fair point thank you we do have we did in crafting the current storm water by law I can't speak to the thought process or even what the previous one was off the top of my head the current storm water bylaw when the sport did craft it we were intentionally thoughtful about more thought attempted to be because people could debate whether or not it is but we tried to be more thoughtful about making sure that we were really dealing with storm water um holistically Inc completely closing what could be some loopholes as as well as a couple of our standards are higher than what the state required based on what we deemed appropriate at the time so if we require the peer review is that roughly $5,000 or roughly $155,000 like is it each house they're going to have to get a peer review yeah I hope we don't require $15,000 how much what so um this is where again it's often been the case for us that we say that uh peer review has often been uh seemingly been ready to go for us or has been pres or we've just said yeah we need peer review on this and the answer has been okay so things like the dollar figures of peer review are not something we have discussed as a board previously um so those numbers aren't one we're familiar with so I think the question is uh if I may attempt Mr McLoud how much would this peer review be for a standard storm water review for something like this about $3,000 okay and that would be all three each one yeah anytime you have an individual storm water management system it's generally speaking my experience at least $3,000 even for a small lot in one structure it it becomes expensive and so I'm I'm just mindful I've always been mindful because it's always been brought to my attention that's a lot of money for tax it's just one of those considerations of The Balancing Act it needs to be done there needs to be expertise for sure I understand the board's appetite for that I just look through the regulations and it's I gu pleasure of the board is not the best term but the term of art here is your discretion it is not required and then there's nothing that says it it must be submitted and required and provided before the public hearing and it talks about other department heads actually in in the town DPW director in the Building Commissioner way in but not necessarily the peer reviewer so I I'm just sort of a stickler for the regulations and what they require and say as I hate to see the town get caught by someone saying you're you're kind of being arbitrary here but I think the obviously I think the planning board's perfectly within its Providence to to require a peer review a technical review if that's what they want you have it says there you have the discretion to do so or not all right I guess Mr chair my recommendation is at this point given the input from the board is you so um I'm hearing that the board wants peer review and so the minimum estimate for that should be $3,000 paid by the applicant so the peer review can be conducted before next public hearing um so I think where I come down on this as an individual has is I uh I was I am not coming into this prepared for the discussion of should be we be requiring peer review because we kind of just have always said oh we feel like this needs peer review and the answer has been great um we haven't done it willy-nilly but we have often done it for things like strong water I hear the concerned about cost I am I guess in a position I if told to make a decision tonight I would want peer review given time to chew it over I might feel differently in another meeting that meeting's in a month let me suggest to you Mr chair yeah that the peer review not only it's not protecting us in any sort of a way but our our charge here is to protect all the citizens in the town not just the new development people not just just the new houses we are here to protect the existing abutters okay and if we don't know anything about what's being proposed to us then how are we going to be able to discern that that may or may not work properly or if that's not even up to stuff how are we going to do that without a peer review so in my mind there should not be any question in your mind but there they're different Minds so I don't think I'm very far from you Mr Alis I I am I am open to the possibility I I I think I would it would take a lot for me to feel comfortable knowing the storm water problems this town faces that are not unique to this town but are in fact the storm water problems faced by I mean the world right now I mean right watch the news right um I I would be hardpressed to think that I wouldn't end up in a place where I personally perer review is the appropriate method but I can Envision a world where my mind has changed that could save the applicant some money but it cost him a month so and I don't know how I'm not trying to steer the board in that direction I'm thinking out loud on the other hand if I would be very comfortable also just saying yeah we we do want the peer review seeing as we like to some degree or another do not have an actual vote on this like if they meet requirements we're required to say yes if they don't meet requirements we can say no pretty much and because none of us are geot technical Engineers the idea that this would be done with anything other than a peer review which an expert for the town says yes this is good doesn't seem feasible to me I don't I don't seea forward that doesn't involve an expert telling us an expert who works for the town saying yes this is acceptable you have thoughts Mr mcla just the thoughts I mean the experts before us are providing a plan that they say meet the standards and stuff and it comes down to whether or not we you know trust them or you know have confidence in their their you know abilities so I mean I'm new to this so it' be interesting if we do go with the the peer reviews just to see you know what the peer review uh responses are if they come back and say they need to throw in a few extra pieces of stone over here I'd feel pretty bad that we charged them $3,000 for that but it again it's lack of experience on my part to know exactly but I mean part of me is you know a local company that's coming before us and saying that you know it meets the standards that you know I I guess part of I'm hung up on too is I being very I mean everything everyone's saying is logical is that it's times three but not to say the next one I wouldn't be like oh yeah I can't really follow that one that one should I will say that we have had um very respected Engineers uh locally come before the board and still have peer review say because it's a it's a review it isn't it isn't a sign of a lack of faith in the engineers who have designed it it's it's maybe it's a sign in the lack of faith in humanity because we are inherently imperfect creatures prone to uh um mistakes and uh as well as differences of opinion that sometimes need to be rectified uh with each other but it's not it's not a a sign of lack of faith in the engineers it's mistakes happen another set of eyes um and frankly a dispassionate set of eyes that isn't that isn't going to have the logical fallacies that come with well I know this person it's my office or whatever um yeah I think no I think uh I hear good points Miss Reed I don't want you to feel excluded from the discussion I don't feel excluded thank you but I I would agree with um Mr wil's comments about it it makes sense that if we are not Engineers I know I'm not um it would make sense for it to be reviewed by someone who would be able to contribute a lot more knowledge than than I would have on the subject all right well with three of us having a strong opinion and me also leaning more in that direction the more we talk about it um it seems like a it would make sense to have a motion to whatever the magic words are here require peer review for this storm water design in the amount of $3,000 be paid by the applicant and the 3,000 is a it's called a 53g account yeah but if the peer review costs less we're not charging them 3,000 regardless corre no exactly it goes back to the applicant and that happens sometimes but um we presently have no funds no money to pay a peer reviewer so you need that has to be authorized all right by motion of vote and I know that it is the applicants who pay every time for the peer review as part of the process when we do it all right so moved second moved and seconded all in favor Mr McLoud I Mr Allison I Mr Wilner i m Reed I and an I from myself all right uh if we have no other topic uh nothing else on this we could continue to a public hearing public com oh thank you I forget that sometimes when there's not doesn't seem as many people uh yeah no before we go on is there public comment please seeing none none in Zoom all right oh um I do have a hand up um let me see and John ho I just um the is Joan Hoy um we live at 39 kilber Street I'm just not sure whether this public comment is only for 97 uh excuse me 791 um we're interested in the lot proposed for 70 Kilburn street so if it's in if it's um applying to all three of them then I would have some public comment but if it's only to the first of the three then I don't at the moment this is only for $79 and the good news is I suspect now that we've had some of our other high high level discussions we'll move through them hopefully at a more rapid rate and get where your concern is thank you so much you're welcome all right with no other public comment I would look for a motion probably to uh continue this public hearing to a date certain November 25th 2024 at 6 605 p.m. so much seconded for discussion is that going to give enough time for the 43 53g account deposit and the request and the review depends on it always depends on when you get the money it's a month though so um so we can shoot for that and continue if we don't get the funds in and I like that idea if Graves is amendable I think this a pretty small project uh in their eyes won't take to do the review itself just worth mentioning great move second all right moved in seconded all in favor Mr McLoud I Mr Allison I Mr Wilner hi Miss Reed hi and I from myself all right great next up would be 795 lemonster Road take it away M Reed let me pull it up real quick okay the lunenberg planning board will hold a public hearing on October 28th at 6:05 p.m. Town Hall 17 Main Street lunenberg Mass to hear and review an application for storm water management permit pursuant to 204 d1d of the code of the town of lunenberg as amended at the November 17th 2020 special town meeting by timri realy trust for construction of a single family home on a vacant lawn subject property information the location is 795 lemonster Road assessor map 119 parcel 4 lot one owner is Tim Rick realy trust 81 View Street in Fitchburg Mass 01420 materials are viewable at the planning office at 960 Mass Avenue in lunenberg Mass still me no all right uh Ryan Proctor Dillis Ro again for the record um representing the applicant we are now moving on to lot one which is in the top left of our exhibit plan this was a lot that had approximately 18,000 s ft of disturbance uh similar to the previous lot we are again proposing a single family house which will be accessed by a new paved driveway there are wetlands uh jurisdiction of the Conservation Commission on the North portion of the site which is just at the top of the page similar to the previous projects we have permitted this project with the Conservation Commission as well as Nela Board of Health uh so we do have a perent for the septic system for storm water on this one again we are proposing to infiltrate or excuse me capture the storm water associated with the roof area with a series of roof drains that would discharge to a stone sale on the northeast side uh which is up and to the right on the plan of the driveway that would be captured and routed into a beehive grate and then ultimately discharged down towards the wetlands into a uh a storm water management area and similar to the previous design uh if that storage Capac is exceeded it would spill over the spillway into a level spreader and then evenly distributed back towards the Wetland almost identical to the previous design the driveway will be super elevated to Route water to that northeast side to guide water towards those storm water management devices just because of topography there is a small section of pavement near the road uh that is unable to be captured uh but we do have our construction management entrance uh temporary which would be there during construction um and we have submitted a storm water report in accordance with irre ations and the state regulations as well I will be brief on that one um if there's any questions I happy to take them I I find it this is nothing about this project negative at all don't but it it's I look at it and go oh okay there's a I mean there's a few um there's a few recharge trenches a 75 linear foot pipe to move water to A detention Basin or infiltration Basin I should say it's funny because I look at and go oh this is a very simple design and then it shocks me the amount of work that goes into quote simple storm water management now um and that's not a fault at all it's just the nature of trying to deal with this environmental issue um thoughts questions from the board seeing none feel free to interrupt me I will also look for public comment and this is on 795 lemonster Road I have a hand on Zoom oh great hi I'm Sue I live at 710 lemonster Road I just wanted to add that um when you're looking at the this is a high storm water area it's the lemonster road is uh very low it's surrounded by all the hills where Lot number two is it's about the lowest spot among all the hills and we do have a big storm water problem on that part of lemonster Road um right across from me um lots of times in the winter it doesn't clear off and it freezes or accidents down there a lot and I know um lot two has the same problem that's right on a hill and drain and creates a big water problem down at the bottom so I just wanted to add that when you're looking at it um so I apologize my uh my hearing isn't wonderful I only have one ear that works um and so and the Acoustics in this while I love this beautiful meeting room sometimes the Acoustics coming from the TV leave something to be desired so to make sure you were saying that lemonster road does have pooling issu issues with pooling on the road run off as it is now on the lemonster side of Cher Hill Farm so it's got the hill that Cherry Hill Farm is on it's got the hill that my house is on it continues up and also across the street where the carols live so where these new houses are it's the lowest area so the water will all pool down there um where the first house we discussed is that's actually sub level to the road um and we're still having trouble the water doesn't drain and in the winter it freezes and there are a lot of accidents um and I know the one you're discussing now also has a problem with water coming off the hills onto the road I you say that and I suddenly go wait I know the spot she means there we go um so I just wanted to add that it's not flat topography here no thank you and that's a fair point there is there are exent runoff issues and this will hopefully at least not make it worse I don't know enough about everything in the area to know how everything impacts otherwise right you would hope it wouldn't make it worse and maybe something would make it better MH do you have any comments or anything else you don't have to but um no no comment on that okay all right thank you thank you other public comment other board comment or questions I move that we require excuse me a $3,000 deposit to the 53g account for this peer review is that adequate second was uh Mr Allison's wording good for yeah that was fine great moved and seconded all in favor Mr McLoud I Mr Allison hi Mr Wilner hi Miss Reed I I for myself all right uh hearing no other questions I would look for a motion to continue this public hearing to a date certain being November 25th 2004 at 605 p.m. uh so moved second moved and seconded um I should still good with you for that date for all these okay great Mr McLoud hi Mr Allison hi Mr Wilner I miss Reed I and an I from myself all right now we're cooking with gas let's go on to 70 Kilburn Street okay the lunenberg planning board will hold a a public hearing on October 28th 2024 at 6:05 p.m. Town Hall 17 Main Street lunenberg Mass to hear and review an application for storm water management permit pursuant to 2004-1 D of the code of the town of lunberg as amended at the November 17th 2020 special town meeting by Tim M realy trust for construction of a single family home on a vacant lot subject property information the Loc is 70 Kilburn Street assessor map 119 parcel 4 lot 3 owner is timri realy trust 81 View Street Fitchburg Mass 01420 materials are viewable at the planning office at 960 Mass Avenue in lunenberg thank you thank you again Mr chair Ryan Proctor still with Dillon Roy excellent representing the applicant yes um so we are now located uh of course on the one lot that's located over on Kilburn Street on the exhibit plan that's down into the right side of the page similar to the previous projects uh the proposed project involves a construction of a single family home uh with a new sewage Disposal system in this case it's actually located between the house and the road uh there will be a new well on the property and we've uh proposed a storm water management system similar to the previous ones on the uh east side of the driveway which is planned down we will have a burm on the side of the drive driveway which will route water coming down the driveway everything on this site with the exception of a small area next to the septic slopes from Kilburn Street down into the property so away from the road and that burn will route storm water into a grass whale storm water management area on the bottom side of the site between the house and the Wetland resource area and similar to the previous projects uh that will discharge uh via Spillway and ultimately end up uh towards the Wetland resource area we have pered this uh project with the conservation commission they voted to issue an order of conditions and we have received a septic permit from the Board of Health I think I will leave it at that um I we have two for two uh for peer review and a continuing so I expect nothing less for this one but I'm happy to take questions on it uh I I just looking at the topography on this one it's a little more confusing to me and it looks like I want to make sure I understand correctly the peak of the property is uh [Music] in the kind of middle of what we're looking at Northeast yeah I can can't grab the mic and and point on the plane yeah if it can go that far I have no idea so the high point uh for the septic is a 381 Contour which is right here and then it goes 380 down to 378 to a low Point towards the road alternatively on the house side we have the 380 that pitches back towards the house and then ultimately towards a grass sale so this is 379 down to 377 down to 372 and then ultimately back towards the Wetland resource area the driveway itself enters at the 375 elevation and then pitches right down to 372 before flattening out in this landing area next to the house and then ultimately like I said towards the storm waterer management area and then out towards the back of the site okay great thank you questions comments from the board hearing none I would look to the public and I believe we do have anticipated public comment on this hello um this is Joan Hoy 39 Kilburn street right directly AC AC Ross Kilburn street from the proposed site um I have a few comments and questions and I would also like to ask if it will be possible for me to submit some pictures and some videos of the water that um is down there um I don't I don't know uh quite how that happens but the getting the permission for that um I'll have you start with the questions and we can go over submitting the videos and pictures and everything after that okay thank you um so our house is located in what everybody calls the big curve on uh Kilburn Street and you come down the hill from lemonster Road and there's a large curve and then kilber Street goes along um this is a point a problematic area because um there's a a lot of water in the road completely across the road the road floods um quite uh regularly and my husband goes down and cleans out um a storm drain uh there to try to dry up the road because it's it's very dangerous and people come down from lemonster Road much too fast and they hit the corner and they can't make the corner and we've seen people drive off the road um and have to be pulled out by you know tow trucks um and one day when I was coming home from work I had just pulled into my driveway and a car came down from lemonster Road it was it was the middle of the winter and of course they came too fast and I watched them as they came right across the road toward my car which was about 6 feet from the road in my driveway up my driveway and he just barely missed me so it's a very dangerous corner there are accidents there are all kinds of things there but of course what we're talking about here mostly is the water and the water can it can go across um the road for I'm I'm a word person not a numbers person but I'm guessing 30 or 40 ft of water across the road and longer than that up and down the road um so and and where this house is proposed to go with the driveway if I understood the um drawings correctly the driveway is going to be almost Direct across from our driveway and it really worries me about having two driveways enter possibly trying to enter the road at the same time on an icy flooded Corner um the the other thing is that where the house is proposed is about the only area where anything could be uh constructed there because it's Wetlands all around it and um I have uh I have some photos and videos which show um running water uh in in the in the area right there right at that those these PL these locations where even on a a sunny day if we've had water if we've had rain a a day or two ago uh the water just runs down across that um across the property so I understand that um you know they want to make sure that they don't have water in their house but um it's it's at a location that I just think is really problematic for both water and accidents and danger all right uh thank you uh I'm going to continue on this topic and then once we're done then we'll we'll get on to how you can submit your videos and everything because you want to put those in we'll make sure they're there thank you um now I just want to seek a quick point of clarification are you worried about runoff from the driveway into that area or just worried about having two opposing driveways as you understand it I'm I'm worried about runoff um from that whole area because it's it's not even runoff I mean right now that whole curve um can be completely underwater on the street Street okay um so I I don't know off the top of my head if the if the what she describes is correct for the layout or not cuz I don't know like I know that curve vaguely I don't have any layout in my mind so uh do you have any thoughts or response on it uh I can speak to two of those items uh relative to the Wetland location as I mentioned we did permit it with the Conservation Commission it's in accordance with the local wet regulations and state regulations um so we did achieve that permitting and then relative to storm water as I mentioned um the site does pitch back towards our property so we're not introducing any new flow from our development into the road um and we taken care with our grading on the site and and the location of the drainage features to make sure that water is not ponding next to our house and that it's getting to where it's going now which is the Wetland resource area Okay so M ho did you understand that response do you have any follow-up questions yes I understood the response and I appreciate it um my husband and I attended several of the Conservation Commission meetings and uh we brought up some of these um issues and we were told that they had nothing to do with the Conservation Commission um that that was planning board so um and that their decision would not uh would not even consider um the the water issue so um so that's why we're we're asking again um in this meeting I understand that as the gentleman from um Dillis and Roy just said they got permission from the Conservation Commission but um that from what we were told it it really didn't they really weren't looking at water issues they were looking at wildlife and and um environmental things not necessarily water in the road and how the water gets out of the road mhm so and I think that's a good point uh Conservation Commission does deal with Wetlands but that is separate from separate but adjacent to storm water um and we are here tonight to look at the storm water plans um and um a as has been described the site largely slopes away from the road there so I mean I'm not an engineer I don't see how this design is going to create a lot more flow at the road but again we will also I'm assuming I'm betting the board's about to vote vote in favor of peer review of this plan as well uh to help kind of make sure that's all squared away um otherwise water planning board can deal with things like the storm water permit water that is getting into the road otherwise isn't really our purview but I don't like aside from making sure DPW knows this is I mean this is one of the ongoing issues in town we talk about in capital planning a lot because every year you're going to we have more more culverts that need work we have um drainage issues on roads in town that need to be addressed and as Mr Wilner pointed out that's one of the reasons the town is exploring the possibility of a storm water utility to be able to work on mitigating these things without directly draining our Capital funds every year um would you add anything to that Mr Riley or I would say the storm water RS apply to all the surrounding uh property including the road so so um it's a pretty stringent local bylaw but it's designed specifically to deal with all offsite runoff so wherever it goes and Conservation Commission is in many cases the steward of storm water U depending on the application so you know they're critical because the storm water goes off into the wetlands that needs to be treated and needs to meet their regulations but so they're integral to storm water management particularly if you can't deal with it in in an effective way elsewhere so but um I would say you know th in this case this is a challenging site that would benefit from peer review so I I would definitely recommend that uh it's looked at here although just to this all this discussion um we rely heavily in our profession on the experts and how do we know they're experts they have a stamp and if they prepare plans that aren't accurate or don't work they put their stamp at risk their professional license at risk so that along with comments we've received through the open goov application from the actual other department heads that are identified in the storm water RS we're relying on all that to say without a peer review okay this seems reasonable or manageable but the The pering Authority is the planning board so it's the discretion of the board whether you feel comfortable with all of that or or need further review and this is a case where we're hearing whenever I hear from an butter or you know an a resident then that to me is okay this needs further review makes sense um and Miss Hoy you said that you have um video and photos you'd like to submit uh would they send that to what what's the email address they would use to send those I could send it to Logan or or myself yep um we're on the planning board web page yep yep if you Google Logan town of lunenberg my staff directory page will be the first result and that has my email there um it's also just l o c o NN l l lunenberg ma.gov um yeah if you if you wanted to email that to me now even I could could upload it great and then we'll but as long as we have it soon I mean vaguely soon it can then be ready for us for the next meeting to be in the files and we can take a look at it then too when we also have the peer review and everything else yeah no absolutely great thoughts or comments from the board I moveed that we require a $3,000 deposit into the 553g account for peer review uh second moved in second seconded all in favor Mr McLoud I Mr Allison I Mr Wilner I miss Reed I and I from myself um before I just uh look entertain a motion to close the public hearing list as other comments I I anticipated one public comment are there any other public comments on this public hearing seeing none uh I would look for a motion to continue to ad certain November 25th 2024 at 6:05 p.m. so moved um oh I have another from um John Hoy oh please miss Hoy I just wanted to say thank you very much for hearing us um and for seriously considering a lot of the issues we really appreciate it thank you you're very welcome thank you uh we have a a motion second moved and seconded all in favor uh Mr McLoud hi Mr Allison hi Mr Wilner hi Miss Reed hi and an I from myself woo thank you one more yeah um that is true all right should get you some hats Ryan I'm sorry um and finally site plan approval public hearing 1260 Reservoir Road okay the lunenberg planning board will hold a public hearing on October 28th 2024 at 6:05 p.m. Town Hall 7 Main Street lunberg Mass to hear and review an application for site plan approval pursuant to 250- 8.4b of the code of the town of lunenberg as amended at the August 22nd 2016 special town meeting by PJ keing company for construction of a new Quality Control building subject property information the location is 1260 Reservoir Road assessor map 142 parcel number 7-0 owner is the airs to Paul J keing 998 Reservoir Road lunenberg Mass 01462 materials are viewable online at lunenberg m. portal. opengov docomo or in person at the planning office at 960 Mass Avenue in lunenberg great thank you Mr chair Ryan Proctor with Dillis moror I'm representing PJ keing I'm joined by Rob Pagani of PJ keing company we have submitted an application for a site plan review at 1260 Reservoir Road for the construction of a new quality control lab which on the plan is shown outlined in red this will replace an existing Quality Control building which is shown just below the proposed building uh it's in Gray hatched um the location of the new building uh will take place within an area currently utilized as parking there is a Gras slope behind the building that we intend to pave so I submitted some architectural plans with this building the only access for the new Quality Control building will actually be around the back which is the west side of the building on the plan or the left side of the page so if you're looking at it from Reservoir Road you will see the roof and then as the existing pavement tapers away you'll see um increase level of foundation reveal and then you drive around the back or walk around the back to access the facility to through one of two man doors the entire Frontage along Reservoir Road in this area uh where the project is happening is currently paved we are not proposing any modifications to the existing curb cut the building will tie into an existing sewage Disposal system which is located to the west of the building which currently serves the existing Quality Control building we will install a new septic tank and uh we have submitted a permit uh a plan to the Board of Health seeking approval for that the project uh because it involves the construction of a new commercial building is subject to the storm water standards so along with our site plans and application narrative I did support I did submit a cover letter uh relative to the storm water management the property that is currently utilized on this side of the road alone is approximately 45 Acres a large majority of the storm water from that site is currently contained on on the property it all discharges back away from the road into the site and that is not um that is the same as what's proposed here so run up from the proposed roof and the lower parking area that were converting the grass to pavement will be routed back into the facility uh and infiltrated on site we are not proposing to uh change the grades between the uh proposed building and the edge of the road as I mentioned we're proposing to maintain what's there currently for pavement so the net increase in impervious area for this project is about 2700 ft on that 45 acre parcel um so we did support uh submit some calculations relative to storm water and there is uh mathematically not any impact to the storm water management on the property itself we intend to construct a new uh water service connection to service a building and then we will work with the utility company to either piggy back off the existing service Services the existing Quality Control building or provide a new service there's utility pull um currently right along the frontage of the site and throughout the property for lighting we are proposing only Lighting on top of the Mand doors in the back as I mentioned there's no access on the Reservoir road side of the building and there's existing Lighting on the facility that is adequate to handle the parking area um so just Lighting on the rear side of the building for Access purpose only I think I will leave it at that if there are any questions I'd be happy to take them um so your adding pavement slope moves rainwater further back like back into the property yes we're not changing yeah the where it's going now yep and um this is just an increase in pavement and the new QC building right that's right okay yep can I just mention something I I I heard I heard discussion about a storm water application but that's not on the agenda yeah was this um I I the documents I have are for a site plan approval and I believe in open gov that's all that was submitted for 1260 Reservoir so the messages at storm water standards are um have their requirement for new commercial construction so we just we submitted that memo to address those standards relative to the construction of the new commercial building uh so you it doesn't trigger local storm water permit it just it triggers we have to review for M certain Massachusetts guidelines is that correct or not gu but what requirements I do not believe we Tripper trip the local regulations for a stor water permit we are well below a NE grou of disturbance sounded like it was below yeah but regardless I we we can't have a discussion in open meeting when it's not on the agenda and I don't I I man have read I didn't hear it mentioned as storm water it wasn't in the the notice just want to mention that is this a storm we certainly cannot review a storm water permit that's needed that's not on the agenda if a storm water consideration is required as part I'm going to turn to you Chris and ask how this kind of parses out yeah drainage is part of site plan review under the criteria and the standard so you under that you can talk about it great okay thank you I was kind of piecing together a similar question and you beat me well do it and eloquently thank you thank um board uh I mean to me this one feels delightfully straightforward for a change but that's only to me I look to the board I'd like to ask the uh the lanu director uh if the the review fee would be the same for this if we wanted it uh we have a different review fee for site plan review so we'd have to calculate that but um yeah does the motion have to say a specific thing if the planning board feels like you need further review for this project my recommendation would be it could not be more straight forward or simple it's in an industrial Zone it's an industrial use I certainly don't disagree that's up to the board if you want to require peer review we'd have to calculate that fee and then assign the peer review so we need a motion and vote um I I don't see anything that gives me personal concern for needing a site uh needing a peer review on a site plan review as opposed to storm water but I'm open to being convinced otherwise I'm not really interested in convincing anybody on this one because Kings has been here longer than I have and they they they own that part of town so yeah um and and as as as was explained anything they do wrong is going to fall back on them anyway MH however I do not want to be looked at as being partial or impartial I mean across the board is kind of how I try to roll so um anyways I'm again I'm not going to try to convince anybody fair just wanted to say it fair uh I would look for cuz there's plenty of bodies in the room I would look for public comment seeing none all right and zoom if you got a public comment get that hand up there um board comment or questions not trying to sway anybody but this applicant would be one of the least affected by a small additional fee MH I hear that uh I think I personally land I just I don't see the need here because this is delightfully boring um to my way of thinking but I look to the board for comment I'm not even going to make the motion what's that I said I'm not even going to make the motion great I mean maybe that's overly biased in my view I don't want to do that but in that case I'm hearing no question questions I am hearing no concerns I am hearing no public comment uh I'm hearing our resident experts say this is about a straightforward as it gets uh so I would look for a motion to app approve the site plan review wait do we need to do it's approval by the way it's not review anymore oh thank you thank you is site plan approval um and do we need to attach conditions to this probably should standard standard conditions I would yeah there's still regulations obvious yeah uh I would look for a motion to close the public car oh so picky you have to follow the law sry um look for a motion to close the public hearing for 1260 reservoir uh road so moved second moved and seconded all in favor Mr McLoud hi Mr Allison hi Mr Wilner hi M Reed I and an I from myself and I realize I say all in favor but it's a roll call vote so you actually could say what you want but you're also going to deal with the fact that I say the same thing every time my apologies um okay further discussion from the board hearing none I would look for maybe a motion to approve the site plan approval for uh approve the site plan for 1260 Reservoir Road with standard with all standard conditions so moved second moved and seconded all in favor Mr McLoud I Mr Allison I Mr Wilner I miss Reed I and an i for myself thank you very much one for four y weing bed y thank you for your time have a good night thank you you you too okay and that is it for public hearings um I see we have friends who are still in the room um do we have members of the I just want to kind of straw poll because got you've been sitting here a long time uh do we have members of the public here for anything as opposed to an applicant or something here for anything in particular that all right 25 Sunny Hill for 255 Sunny Hill well have I got good news for you let's move on to 255 Sunny Hill because that's even next on the agenda thank you gentl thank you great thank you uh we've got the decision for 255 Sunny Hill Road storm water management permit so this has been looked at by Town Council review predates me but I understand he recommended some adjustments and changes and um so he's forwarded a draft for your review and consideration and my recommendation would be not to Veer from that okay unless the board feels strongly in one way or the other but um it's always best to on the side of town council's recommendation mhm and this would be the uh decision based on what was a split V vote two to2 on the board and that two to2 vote with no majority thus is uh results in a denial we weren't we were kind of we passed that off to make sure that's how it went Town Council took a look um I am always happy to take Town council's advice on the correct wording of legal documents so I'm not encour I am not encouraging us to not go through it as appropriate have you have you reviewed this and are you aware you've been in discussion with everybody involved can you just give was the back of the napkin discussion I have i m Mr Riley could give you a better answer than me cuz I know yeah this is Town council's recommendation so um I wouldn't have comment on um what he's proposing he's usually quite worri I don't know anything about it really it wasn't here I don't know the background I did read it his his recommendation was pretty clear and um so he word smithed it and that's the ISS isues he saw and so we have a draft decision for the board's review what is the final recommendation here cuz I know I was told that the vote that I made I may not have been permitted to vote no for the reasons I did um so I'm just what what is Town council's final opinion here I I believe it is that I I mean I have not spoken with Town Council on it to my understanding it is as written that Town Council took the reasons and comments as provided and turned that into this document gotcha wow I'm glad I didn't just say what I was going to say um so procedurally this is something we don't need a vote on this because like if if it's good we I mean unless there 's a desire from the board to rewrite we don't need to vote because it's already decision we made we just sign it correct correct okay it was a motion and vote that's right so he's prepared to document a draft decision that tightens it up a lot or addresses some of the concerns mhm so it seems to me that rather than just having the little blur from Mr wisare and myself that he's added six pages of backup right CIA kind of stuff as long as you don't see anything totally inconsistent with what you said and approved or didn't approve he list exactly what he said he copy pasted our comments exactly so nobody can you know substitute your permitting Authority but you know does the draft reflect your deliberation and your motions and votes and findings so is this is is this time sensitive um yeah yeah I think yes okay yes there may be you know there there's always everybody you know that um is a petitioner has recourse or you know they decide how they want to proceed and we need to give them some um clarity well if Town Council has written this extra six pages and he's included exactly what I said I have no problem with it because he's Town Council and that's what we have him for so I'm good with it I don't know Chris you mind if I step off and try to print this yeah yeah and this is this this reflects my understanding of everything that happened okay so try to well I'm good with that too all right great well that's just me though then uh M Reed is not here to sign tonight physically you only need three signatures done it though don't you well whoever legally whoever voted should should sign it yeah was was she the absent one no oh she was no it was the ineligibility yes that's right Mr McLoud was ineligible if she was ineligible cuz she missed no it was Mr McLoud it was Mr moud was ineligible because he was said it rule yeah so you definitely wouldn't want that yeah no so it's three of us here can sign the fourth member who can who would be signing is absent okay well not is here remotely so I don't know what is needed in terms of uh dis shees has to come 3 is enough it's you know physically unable to give the fourth signature of somebody was there it's a quorum and it's a majority yep okay super so I have a question yes is this not something that I can sign tomorrow it has to be signed this evening that would be better before we file it yeah if you can come in tomorrow that would be fantastic yeah I absolutely can come in tomorrow I just I couldn't make it physically there tonight I can even drive in tonight if you need me to I'm only 5 minutes away but I'd prefer tomorrow she was don't drive a night if you're not comfortable it's dangerous it's not that it's just lunberg it's 5 minutes I can make it in tonight if you need me to yeah tomorrow that that would be fine then we we're not going to file it until tomorrow anyway okay perfect all right so uh Mr ronnell is loading up the printer copier mega super machine over there that does everything all right um while we are waiting on that because it may take a moment to go through is there a reason because this isn't like a hearing or anything can I just move us on and we hop back to it great um all right then I would move us to decision for 1335 Mass a and that would be the old Puppet Theater so Mr chair I uh in your staff report prepared a draft decision a little rough there's a few things that uh I I was made aware needed to be changed but I'll do that tomorrow what I have is a signature page so I'm asking the board to sign this for this decision so we can do that and then I can just make the slight changes to the body that you of the text you see there and you know that it can't this can't go with any other decision because it's got a header on it that identifies it with the permit number could you go over what the changes to the text as we have it are I didn't have the right vote and um or one of the members names was wrong um yeah sorry Chris I should um they I I caught those changes just a second like a second ago um and I tried to whip together one that had the corrections I don't know that it has the full ones but the word document that you guys have is closer to what I believe those Corrections will look like um the initial one was attached to the very end of the director's report PDF so we should for the most updated look at um the director's report in the in the oh Logan was saying there was a more recent there was a more recent one but I that was something I had cobbled together this wasn't something I talked with Chris about because I didn't no I didn't know if accurate and reflects the motion vote what you okay so where would we look for that would that be in decisions yep uh decisions and then oh I see 05b yep yep decision approval cool and so we moved on from 255 to 1335 yes because now we just need to sign for 255 when it's as it printed I just think it would be prudent to let the the the person in the audience know that you can come in the office and see it tomorrow I guess or whatever but it's nothing CH with the Town Clerk and then there's a 20-day pillow period so we can get them so a copy do we have the copy of so just pausing us for a second is 255 ready to sign no um maybe printing to something downstairs I've never had to print in town hall before okay and I should have had this prior but all right so 255 we've talked about it we're going to sign we need the physical copy to sign um for those who are here for 255 that may or may not be enough for you tonight we'll get that we're going to get that done as soon as we figure out how to get it printed one member still has to sign tomorrow regardless um so I am going to be moving us and I have moved us on to the God so many I just wanted to let no no good good to be more clear I appreciate it Mr chair maybe this is a good time for me to throw something out there since I've thrown some stuff against the wall tonight um so what I do what I've done in these cases is prepare a signature sheet after explaining to you what the document with any revisions and Corrections that need your review anyway in the meeting after those are incorporated into the text then I have the signature page to attach it and you know that it has to be attached to that decision and it can't be attached any other CU it has the header and the identifier so that's a procedural way mhm to spare you from the inconvenience of coming in and and signing which a lot of boards do yeah um so but it's your choice yeah so we I think we want to look and see what the we want to double check see what the changes are yeah and then um I'm looking at Logan's Word document right now so he may be able to print that out tonight so you have the whole thing but yeah in the event we need to make some small Corrections yeah we can't do it here tonight we can do it in the office tomorrow and you've already signed the page that goes with it as long as you know what the corrections would be and that's where I think we want to know what I think we want to know specifically what the corrections are from what we're looking at so we can um we tend to be fairly anal about making yeah but so so trying to not inconvenience the board members and but it has to be right so if he found some scribers errors or some things I I know I was made aware by uh Mr McLoud that um there were two things that needed to be corrected and I what were do you remember what those were uh my name and it was a unanimous vote and what a unanimous vote I thought it was ah I see that this is a unanimous vote and I see your name correctly and well the very bottom of this one has like there's a unanimous for um closing and then at the very very uh and your oh and the there were two things there was the waivers that you did a little yeah I see that now and I don't believe that was unanimous but these are my notes and I so I rely on the minutes and the um video and I didn't have either so I just kind of winged it a bit but um I think Logan's clean up and Y probably okay and I see the additional conditions is four in favor one against which I believe is correct okay yep yeah I was just y okay great so we have Logan's cleaned copy that seems to to me to be reflective of what happened and have those errors fixed I can I can pass out this is okay this is two this is 255 yep um see um all right that 133 something in red you can print that one I don't know something in red was it you that signed something in red how did you do it how did you maybe it wasn't even driver no I just printed it you remember somebody signing something in red we had to reprint it I'm sorry do you remember somebody signing something in red and we had to reprint it anyway blue or black is okay on these signatures right yeah blue or black yeah so this is 25 I'm just going to put the signature page perpendicular to the others to make it easy to grab off the bottom so this is 255 as we just read signature page on the bottom can ize hopefully he's printing out 1335 yep thank you and Logan is printing out 1335 massav with the um script news errors fixed so we know that we're signing with everything correct thank you Logan thank you oh wait May another time that equipped yeah the Pen's mats blue pen is allowed yes okay I don't see the sign oh cuz you have the signature page for this one so let's put that on that yeah thank you sir thank you and here does not need a separate chair signature no okay cool there we go great so 255 Sunny Hill has been signed by three members of the board present Miss Reed is going to come in and sign it tomorrow at the planning office and 13 uh 1335 is getting signed by four members present Mis can come in and sign tomorrow at the planning office booya so that'll be filed with the town clerk tomorrow and then 20-day appeal period but you're it'll be filed tomorrow so you're good to go yeah there's an appeal period 20 days with the town clerk but we'll talk tomorrow thank you thank you for your patience it's a lot we have one more on a um certificate of completion Mr chair for y storm water let's get to that certificates of completion 319 Highland Street compliance with storm water management permit so they they didn't have to be here but they are yep God bless them thank you just in case understood so I know you gentlemen three of you know me Justin lir mccardy engineering nice to meet both of you so I'm just here if you guys have any questions I know we had the asilt done we submitted the asilt along with the letter verifying mainly the water quality volumes I know that's the big thing that the plan board looks for that these are designed appropriately this one was actually constructed by Mr Anderson himself he's here tonight and he made it larger than what we had originally designed he had additional plantings he made more of a landscape feature for his site so I was shocked when I saw that when I did my site inspection but yes they went above and beyond even for what you require the standards require so it looks all good to me that's my recommendation all right the board does have the authority to approve the certificate of completion okay nothing to sign you just motion and vote and I'll write up a memo I'm a quick look see at the uh letter but yeah I think it's straightforward how nice I think we've done these a couple times for you guys um looks like you enjoy doing that it was such a robust uh product in the end I think you had fun and I assume it's working very well too as far as We Know yes I didn't see any sign it wasn't yeah all right um any discussion from the board was this the one where we had Town drainage pipe exiting onto private property I remember something funky like that on Highlands the other way there was a catch Basin off just on the edge of the property that had a pipe that kind of went somewhere okay it was it was questionable I remember that yeah no problem someday we'll find out where but not today not today and hearing no questions from the board yet or comments though that may come what would the motion be for uh the certificate of completion motion uh to approve the certificate of completion for 319 Highlands all right so moved second moved in seconded any further discussion hearing none all in favor Mr McLoud I Mr Allison I want to discuss I have a question oh I'm sorry I didn't think no cool cool fine pause time out that's a technical technical thing I think in town government is Timeout certificate of completion does that get reviewed by a reviewing engineer I mean don't they usually have some involvement in in this I mean don't we usually get a thumbs up from the review engineer I don't think from the review engineer I don't no in the regulations it says the land use director okay this is and it was handled differently but I as you know I'm a stickler for what the regulations says so um they followed the proper process I looked at it they got um a letter that certifies from an engineer that you know it's working properly required and approved we don't have to redo the motion in the second though do we I think it's fine you think we're fine okay um yeah uh Mr McLoud hi Mr Allison hi Mr Wilner hi Miss Reed I and an I from myself so I'll get you a memo tomorrow with my signature and on an official letter head and that's all you'll need for your closing and your awesome I appreciate thank you gentlemen good night good job so again in terms of everything being slightly different um the board only comparatively recently began actively reviewing the certificates of completion as opposed to the land use director um engaging basically doing that as the board representative ative um which is my understanding allowed but since uh once we had an interim uh he was strongly wanted our feedback on it and uh we haven't talked otherwise but um this probably a good moment just to turn to the board because it's not even policy it's just something less than that than what we're doing that's why it was unclear to me yep yeah do we want to continue to be the ones to approve certificates of completion I I have no problem with that myself but the board other members can have other feelings is there anything like when we reach the certificate of completion assumedly all the eyes and te's have been dotted and crossed are we actually doing anything with our I think there's a few that we've recently said no not yet okay when we've been when it's been the case where we've looked at and said okay yes there effectively yes there are plantings but there we have no evidence that these plantings are going to survive and we and and we the planting should actually be robust and surviving uh so we have had instances where we've wanted to be a little more cautious with it right um along with some because we get the really complex storm water issues where it's like well completion for this lot but not that and we've kind of looked at and said but everything's in the the landscaping and everything is intertwined and if this law isn't done you can't really say this other lot is because you erosion could effectively spread paraphrasing what we've looked at over the past sixish months sure uh I I'll just put it this way since we don't need really need a vote or anything if anyone wants to stop looking at these speak up and we'll have that discussion under the current regulations Mr chair I don't think anyone else can approve certificates of completion the board okay not uh not or its representative legally improper for okay town the Landers director to approve them and not the permitting Authority but okay that would be my read and we can great you you are the resident expert if we're legally required then we're legally done great not a problem now I I'm supposed to do all the work yes you a recommendation that you can rely on but that's that's what I you know how I'll approach it no and that's what what's happened again we've had some instances recently where it has been up to the board maybe more nebulous or it's been things where one sec forgive me if I get the technicalities wrong but where it's a big storm water permit because it's a bunch it's several Lots at once but they're seeking to free this lot but not the others um because this lot's done and ready to go and they have a buyer for this one but we're still waiting on this and yeah that happens frequently and you're about to have one of those situations as well um somebody selling condo units on a development you approved how do you release the units for certificates of occupancy well that's question you have I would say it has to satisfy the board M but you look at the conditions you look at the decision what it says and you require the applicant to Pro provide everything that was required in full up to that unit for which you're releasing the certificate of occupancy doesn't mean you have to do the whole site but you have to do everything that's required right up to all the way to the line of that unit that's being conveyed and and we've had similar and there's been a couple in say where the board said well effectively yes but you are saying it's done but again it it's it's November and you put in new plantings so we don't know that they're going to act that those plantings are actually there as opposed to you know you stuck a spade in the ground stuck a plant in and it very likely won't survive the winter or whatnot yeah that's important but it's also important to remember regardless when you um provide a decision whatever is required in there is required in perpetuity for that permit so whether or not it survives I would be out there in the first you know planting day in the spring saying put another shrub in there to be to remain compliant with the board's decision um the board has struggled uh with I think as many boards do now with the concept of we do all this work rightly so for storm water but and we've put procedures and everything in place to help ensure that that storm water things are maintained correctly in the long run but for a long while we didn't have any of that so you're sitting here and we're approving storm water systems with no guarantee in fact you can kind of assume they're not going to be maintained and a storm water system that isn't maintained isn't really a storm water system anymore happens all the time yeah so that that's just the two-minute history of where some of these discussions come from but I'll move us on because I think we want to get home someday board discussions there's nothing there I don't great abing Community notices uh do we have anything NOP wonderful sorry um what do those need to be explicitly those need to be explicitly outlined on the agenda for discussion don't they often yes now we have the flexibility for if something wasn't anticipated that is in our agenda for a reason but what's a concern okay U well I mean there there are abing Community notices that I provided in the drive but because they weren't explicitly outlined um no I think I think you can we have a budding Community noses there even if we haven't called out each AB budding Community notice individually especially where this is not a decisionmaking thing from us it's an FYI thing there's no problem yeah um okay cool um there's if you get one of those that you have an interest in or concern about let's say it's a 300 unit 40b right on the Town Line next to a residential neighborhood you can ask me to go to that hearing and and report back to you but this nothing stopping Logan from telling us about the abing community come in and that's that's really where we are with this so take it away uh and ordinarily I emailed these to you in advance as well so I apologize that I um hadn't done that in the weeks leading up to this meeting um the only thing so uh Mr McLoud I know you um have had an ongoing interest in the MBTA zoning um on 11:06 the Shirley planning board is um doing their hearing on bta's owning looking at their bylaw proposal and some overlay District um let's see other than that there is a residential duplex um that the towns and Zoning Board of Appeals looked at um or no will be looking at on 1106 um there is a change of use in Townsend from a bank to a Starbucks um that the planning board is looking at there um and those are the only big three I think we've got a bank that's vacating um yeah that actually came up at the uh Capital planning uh committee not not really directly within the but like as discussion morphs uh was the idea was floated that maybe that is something the town would want to consider leasing uh even for the uh for Public Access for the Public Access TV or otherwise I want to I want to remind everybody that I think that our vcd zoning does not allow drive-throughs but I don't recall I I hope I'm mistaken because that bank existed before the BCD zoning so would that disallow a reuse of a different sort just think maybe I should talk about this at comments at the end but and and I may be mistaken about the drivethru but I'm pretty sure we said no drive-throughs I don't know what I have no idea what our bylaw requires for drive-throughs it has a drive-thru or had a drivethru so there's a drivethru in the bank that's a teller right so that the use doesn't regardless of whether they're gone or not the use doesn't expire for a year usually let's say let's say uh Starbucks was like well if Townson can support a Starbucks lunenberg can support of Starbucks and we sure like buying Banks or whatever um if they were if a business came in that is not a bank for existence food you know that wanted to have a drive-thru that would be allowed as a continued use even though it's a change in use from bank to whatever a bank is under our use table to Food Service I don't know that yeah that's not outside of the category we look at category of uses that would be a commercial use and that would be okay and then but if the zonings changed then it would be a legal non-conforming use from then on in the structure not regardless of the use the structure would be uh both regardless of the bank use not the drive-through use regardless that that it was a bank with a drive-thru it still be existing non-conforming structure both use and structure okay and then also thought to further confuse things but the shirely discussion on MBTA zoning is going to be slightly different than ours because they actually have a station and we we're in a budding Community yeah and we are in a budding I don't remember the term but we're in a budding small town I don't think surely they have a station yes they're also out of compliance then is they that's the deadline I think oh no they're dead no I think they deadline since December yeah okay there's enough people flying the finger at that that I think they're probably going to be okay well uh as well as it depending where they are in the process the state is being forgiving with those who are going in their Direction but needing more time to get everything together all right I'm how big is Town Cent terms of square miles it's huge oh no I meant I meant in terms of I am surprised Townson can support as many chain businesses as it does which is just interesting I I don't mean that I kind of assumed they were smaller than us in population but I've no 9,000 they're 9,000 yeah almost I that was the 2022 census they were 9,000 yeah I mean they not that I'm looking for us to become populated with fast food in town but it's I'm like huh they've got a they've got a McDonald's getting a Starbucks uh their dunks is pretty I don't know how new it is but it's a newish in the sense of it's not well I guess we have a new dunks too so there we go yeah just nothing more than it's surprising yeah yeah but good for them um we're also closer to Fitchburg and so we're we're closer to multiple Urban centers and that probably plays in too all right all right so committee reports my friends it is 9:30 I am not telling you to cut it short but I'm going to try to move us master plan steering committee um uh we have a town meeting coming up in December and as long as I can get my ass in gear and get an agenda up immediately uh there'll be a master plan steering committee next Thursday oh okay great wonderful and as we talked about before master plan things have been progressing otherwise as well for the areas that can't be done um open space committee uh nothing to report all right Municipal Building design committee so you'll be happy to hear that the um we have shifted back to the first and third Monday so there's not going to be this overlap where I have to cut short to get to this meeting right um so we uh the r the RFP for the design services and possibly construction monitoring or Construction Services as well has gone out there has been a massive amount of response to this and it it's very it's very good um and the time clock is ticking rapidly I believe there were there were numerous questions that needed to be asked at the meeting and responded to in a timely manner and I believe we made that deadline um there was going to be a site walk through uh I believe it was Chris Ruth was going to uh provide one and Mr mik R Jeff was going to uh be available for a second um again I was very I was very impressed with the uh with with the apparent amount of response um and and seemingly quality of respondents because of the language in the RFP um there was a slight um because it was mostly crafted uh it was started with the RFP for Design Services at Marshall Park there was a one specific Clause that was that was included from Marshall Park that shouldn't have been included in the in the new one um but anyways we've got a a fairly rapid uh Pace schedule on that and um we have a meeting on the 4th we have two meetings before our next meeting so I will have quite a bit more uh it warms my heart to see that group suddenly I mean not too suddenly I know it's been work to do but getting up and singing again it's only been 15 years easy you know you put it in that context you're right man right um you know oh uh Icom I icon's still on here I I think in a previous meeting I I reached out to uh Mary Ray Holman and she was going to check with Adcom and see if they want a planning board rep and she hasn't gotten back to me I will poke in that direction again we can probably take it off unless or we can take it off unless they say we would like a planning board rep and then we'll have that discussion um but I did follow up on that and there was so yeah I'll get the play I'll get the Icom to answer that I think they've probably met by now but I'm not sure but I haven't touched base with her I can do that um Capital planning committee uh best laid plans of mice and men uh we are into Capital planning season we had hoped to do more of the capital planning portion first as opposed to the capital ranking but with with the uh just frankly with the tumultuous nature of town government with people leaving positions and everything um as well as try uh we're not there where we' like in terms of how pre-planning but that means we're going to be working after the New Year um which is when the normal Capital prior prioritization has to happen to look more at our 5-year Outlook and everything else uh we have made steps towards getting the submissions to Capital planning to be more uniform that has met with well things are more uniform not as uniform as we'd like but again you're when you're trying to shift habits that isn't an instantaneous thing um we have we still need to hear from uh DPW and it and I apol and fire are the three um it was scheduled but did not come on its assigned date so hopefully we'll be hearing from them at our next meeting and yeah everything's going well Ed Economic Development Committee uh nothing to report uh the has was the uh meeting greet between our two meetings or was that before our last meeting so September uh that was I think between yeah that that that happened since since our last meeting yeah yeah I just thre emails it sounds like it went really well I was unfortunately able to unfortunately able to go um I was there it was it was another big success um I mean I I got to chat I got to chat about for example the uh the upcoming uh the the quality control that lab that we just approved but I got to talk about the insides and say what is QC for rocks like like what does this look like I I don't even know um but no it was uh again it was a great opportunity for new business people and establish people business people in lunenberg to connect with members of town government to put faces to names and so that uh increasingly that initial contact or prolonged contact the first time they meet isn't at that Podium with us up here um and kind of giving a more human face to it as well as a chance to hear concerns from the community um storm water task force um we're continuing to make progress um there is a hope that sometime in the near future we're going to be ready to start advertising uh what it is we've been working on uh we're expecting a pretty long advertising uh Peri period a year to a year and a half um yeah it's about where we are love the talk of a storm water utility that would be so good for us as a town um massachusett Regional Planning Commission uh we met earlier this month I didn't write anything specifically to report back so next month Fair massachusett joint TR Transportation committee same with mjtc we had a meeting earlier this month um nothing really pertinent to lunenberg um a couple new routes were mentioned for the Mart buses and you know all that can be found on the website great thank you Town manager screening committee um well our our ad is out there we worked with Community Paradigm associates they did a great job of talking to all the department headss in town in terms of getting basically kind of what are you looking for in your leader right what what are the things that you inter that you view as needed um what are the strengths what are the areas that town needs to improve and overall put together a big position statement for the town that's a couple pages long that gets into this is who lunenberg is this is where we are these are the challenges we're facing and is getting it out in front uh uh to The Avenues that will get the most qualified applicants um people who have worked with Community Paradigm Associates both uh towns that have worked with them and uh individuals who have worked with them to get positions with towns speak very highly of their process and I can see why um and they're cheaper than the others too so it's kind of a big win in every they do a lot of great work at a budget price um we'll be getting those I don't have I could look up the dates if people want them but we're going to be getting the applications in and uh you know the resumes and everything and then we will do our screening interviews um it's slower than we would like it would have been nicer to be able to move quicker so we could have a town manager in place for the conclusion of budget season but not in the cards um yeah that's where we are minutes approval for September 9th 2024 that's a lie I don't have those oh I I fully meant to but no worries meeting schedule all meetings for the planning board are at 6:00 p.m. at Town Hall unless stated otherwise uh our next meeting is not until November 25th there is no meeting on November 11th because that my friends is a Federal holiday um so planning board will not be meeting on Veterans Day next meeting is November 25th and after that will be December 9th public comment looks like we have one member of the public out in there um no it's actually it's all it's all staff oh okay cool boards um can I quickly be public um on the topic of meeting schedule um I had poked around at what some other towns did and some posted their um the dates of their upcoming meetings and the associated filing deadlines with that meeting um publicly available in advance um I think that was something I had asked you guys about many many moons ago now but um just want to get a general sense of like if meeting dates are posted in advance cuz I know things change sometimes and whatnot how far out you guys would want to be doing that if that would be like a six Monon thing year thing um not at all um either way when folks call me I you know am more than happy to keep answering their questions and such but um I I figure that information should probably be accessible to uh the public more easily my thought on that is I mean because the these are all calculable things yeah know it's like I I had to go back in you know 25 days in advance oh you have to go to this Thursday and then oh The Ledger only publishes on this day and that's an algorithm that spits out a certain date that the public needs needs to know yeah no that makes total sense my only concern would be on the rare but extant occasions we do cancel a meeting because we know we're not going to have um we're not going to have sufficient board members uh I think of one that we didn't cancel but then only Matt and I showed up to years ago MH cuz it was like December 27th or something it was like uh and we did it remotely and we live for this kind of stuff too yeah um now that was one where the board's like we're going to be there and Matt and I and Adam were there and we're like well yeah hope everyone had a good Christmas how you doing um no Quorum I guess my only thought would be it might be worth including a note that these are the planned meeting dates like like to a little bit of cya but the examples I I saw I should have mentioned did have that there was like a you know big asterisk at the bottom like these are tentative dates if something is important to you and we come crumbling down call and confirm um but do we uh so what do people want or do people care what Logan chooses is how how far out we post ahead of time his discretion is fine on the agenda no this should be like a completely separate like just a document that says hey here's all the planned dates of the year here's the corresponding um filing deadlines if you guys like I could um get an example document of what I'm talking about from like another town and have that before you just to glance at um or I could email it to you I think we already say the second and fourth so I think that that would be anticipated anyway so to list the second and fourth the dates of the second and fourth Monday I think would be completely out you know and then it would just be also like so if you're doing site plan review for November 25th you need to have if you want site plan review on November 25th you have to have everything submitted by dat X prior yeah that that information I had to even scrunch that just for my own purposes um and the regs I believe say 21 days but when you look out practically with like getting things submitted to The Ledger and such it comes out to somewhere more like 25 um I to me that sounds great great because I I can think of the number of times people come in and go but I have it in you know I have it in on date you know 21 days prior and it's like well okay but yeah but there's other steps that can't be met now because other things have to happen along with this like getting the ad out in an appropriate time yeah I think if you can make something that is accurate and informs the community that to me sounds wonderful it's just imperative that that document be triple checked for 100% accuracy absolutely and I I could attach a CIA to it and also um it need not be a static document it could also be something that's updated on the website depending on um I know we've talked previously with uh Cara about access and such but um there are options there I just wanted to kind of gauge where you are we at are we comfortable with trusting Logan with this because this is in some ways more of an office function I think he is amazingly trustworthy yeah if it doesn't work it doesn't work right right this sounds amazing you know what you're doing better than us thank you please continue to be better at your job than we could be that is outstanding um well than I could be I'm not going to speak for others all right other public well now we just go to board comment I think y'all are Troopers that's my comment no just appreciate having the land use director on board oh my God having a full office is the most amazing thing in the world um and uh and and also very seriously Chris thank you for being patient as we all do iron out what it's like to work together yeah you're a great board I've had a lot of them and you guys really work well together so is there a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn second moved and seconded Mr McLoud hi Mr Allison hi Mr Wilner hi M Reed hi and and I from myself my friends thank you for joining us tonight participate in master planning fall in love with storm water utilities and have yourself a great day