to the booth and I'll start the recording. >> Recording in progress. >> Okay. I'll start off by calling uh the select board to order. Today is Tuesday,
July 28th. It is 7:05 p.m. Um calling the select board meeting to order. Uh, this meeting will be recorded and broadcast live over the Lunberg Public Access channel on Facebook Live and the Lunberg Public Access Facebook page and will be uploaded to the Lunberg Access YouTube channel after the meeting. The
agenda lists all the topics which may be discussed at the meeting and are those reasonably anticipated by the chair. Votes may be taken as a result of these discussions. Not all items listed may in fact be discussed and other items not listed may also be brought up for discussion to the extent permitted by
open meeting law. And do you want to call Sure. >> Order? I I call this uh July 28th meeting of the uh Nutberg Municipal Building Design Committee to order. Topics on the agenda can be discussed and we'll have Mr.
>> Okay. First, uh let's open it up for public comment. Any public comment from the public either in the room or online? I'm not seeing any hands raised online. Nobody in the room. Uh, any public comment from the board?
>> Were we going to do the pledge of allegiance? >> Oh, I left that off because we didn't have a flag in Ritter. This was copied from um, >> yeah, we can. Yeah. >> I I skipped over it cuz it's not on
here. I pledge alce to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> All right. Thanks, Glenn. Uh, any
comment from the board? >> No. Um >> I was just >> Oh, that was an accidental bump. That wasn't a hey. Um okay, so this joint meeting between SWAT board and uh Lunberg Municipal Building Design
Committee, there's two topics on the agenda. One is a presentation by um by Dave on programs and incentives from the recent energy summit that he attended which was held by Massave and I believe he's going to split into two parts right the first part will be what he thinks is
relevant for this entire group and then we can have the workshop and then the second part of his presentation is probably mostly relevant for select board based on what you said and so folks can can leave at that point if
they they want. Um, so are you set to to share? >> I believe so. >> We ready? >> Construction. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, the Mass Energy Summit is the Mass National Grid um and all the
partners for Mass hold the energy summit a year. Uh, one of them is at Holy Cross which is in the spring. The other one will be at Foxboro at um Stadium coming up in October. I'll send out a notice about >> Turn on your mic.
>> Oh, sorry. Okay. Send out a notice about that um to everybody whoever would like to attend. These are free to attend. Very good events. Uh there was over 350 people at this one at Holy Cross. Uh good crowd. you have not only folks from
the um the the state from the different municipalities from the from the different municipalities but also from some of the uh pees energy providers um HVAC guys and things like that so um I wanted to go over there was uh quite a few presentations there was one that I
felt was very relevant to this meeting and it's basically on new construction and major renovations so I felt that was kind of what our topic was today so wanted to go review what they were telling So, let me go skip down to slide number
three. Uh, slide number four. So, the idea is the state has lots of money available that they're making. Well, they don't have lots of money, but they have money available for folks who want to do new constructions, additions, renovations. However, the big push is to
go electric. So, they're trying to move away from fossil fuels. They're trying to electrify everything. So the idea is on this program is that if you're doing new construction or additions, it needs to be fully electric for space heating, ventilation, air heating, things like
that. Um hot water equipment and and things of that of that sort. Okay, this is over and above other incentives. There's already incentives in place for um heat pumps um and other systems like that. This is over and above based on
how tight you make the building. this one's going to be. So, let's go to um uh slide five. Uh program requirements, major renovation requirements. There's three paths. The path number one is all electric. Path
number two, um they'll uh the folks the power providers will support major renovations if even if they do include natural gas, but they make no contribution towards the natural gas part. The third is major renovations. Even if they have new natural gas equipment will not be the natural gas
equipment itself doesn't count. Any upgrades in the natural gas equipment itself doesn't count. So I'm going to go what is a major renovation? Slide six. Major renovation a change of use a complete renovation of space within the building. Reconstruction of a vacant
building. The project is so extensive that people can't work there during that of time. And then the the scope of the project includes multiple end uses. So think about what we're talking about today and what we've been looking at and you then you can judge for yourself if a
major innovation or it's a major innovation. >> So any of those >> any of those >> yes any of those trigger. So the program is building electrification and decarbonization. So heat pumps low energy use intensity. Energy use
intensity is you take the amount of energy, you divide it by the number of square feet and the lower the number, the better. Okay? So obviously they're trying to move towards net zero, but the idea is there are several different paths to get there. There's three paths
to accommodate project types. So new constructions, I'm on slide eight already. New constructions and major renovations, path one, net zero, low energy use intensity. Uh this is basically you're going to say we're going to try to do a very low uh intense building. You're going to try to go to
net zero where the building basically uses no energy at all. Uh it you know it's nice but whatever you can do. Path two is a whole building energy use intense. You know basically it's a whole building. It's more for the renovation side. This is buildings up to under
50,000 square ft. Uh and the idea is just getting people involved in the design development stage. This is your electric utilities, your well your partners, your power providing partners as well as um uh PEXs is which is a term
I'll talk about a little bit later. And that's uh path two. Path three is basically you're saying you're going to make this building as best as possible, but you're not going to really try to hit some ridiculous goals. So it's mainly seen on the renovations that are not the you know these are more for
renovations where it's not the whole project uh um or it has heavy process loads or um you're not really looking to try to make it energy that much energy efficient. So oops uh okay I'm on slide nine. Well
let's go with slide nine. Uh as I mentioned path one and two is low EUI pathways. Path three is a high performance building. Let's go to slide 10. Path one, let's talk about the this for buildings 10,000 square feet or greater. I think that's what we're in
that mode. Drive projects towards net zero um and low energy use. Uh achieve a target site energy use and design and then work towards it and hit that target site. Uh mass save sponsors will pay for the
technical support needed to do this. Mass Save will pay 50% up to $10,000 and then there's a verification saying that after you're done this building actually does what it does. So they'll monitor it for two years. They'll do all that stuff and then they give you more incentives on top of that and they pay for 50% of
that fee as well. So what do you get for that for all that grief and aggravation? So what you're going to get is that um there's two ti two tiers on here uh depending on how much you're going to hit as far as your goals. So the EUI
sector targets, this what I would look at is other site specific is what we're looking at. If we talk about office space and go ahead, keep going up with your slides. Go backwards. >> Oh, me? >> No, her. >> Oh, 11. Yeah, I'm on a Sorry.
>> Keep going. All right. Sorry. Um All right. So there's 20, you know, if you hit a 25 or a 25 EUI tie on a target, there's up to $2.75 a square foot incentive up to 3 million bucks. I don't think we're building a building big enough to make over 3 million bucks, but
if we do, I'd be pretty impressed to this town. Um, so the idea is that um, you know, there's a a first incentive when you first build it. Then there's a second incentive after they verify that it it does what you say it's going to do. So, let's keep going. Um, I'm trying
to do this fairly quickly, so bear with me. The path two up to 50,000 foot buildings. Um, you provide an energy savings. They will also pay for the energy modeling, the models, the mid-design review up to 75% of the cost
of that. So, they look into it that to the basic idea here is that you're going to hear is they want us to make sure that we have get people involved. you get your providers involved, your sponsors involved early, um then they're going to do they'll pay for up to 50% of the verification fee. So, how much can
you get with path two? Path two, there's once again three tiers. Um for an office building, if you can do 15% and above in the in the reduction required, so the from a normal building to this building, you're going to get a dollar a square
foot on there. Once again, capped at 3 million bucks. So there's verifications incentives as I mentioned. We're on slide 14. Verification incentives that they're going to cover up to 50% of the cost to share up to $10,000 to cover the scope
and all that stuff. And this is to review the draw your drawings to be participate mid during the the building phase and then to also uh look at you for post occupancy. Path three is the one the easiest. Um,
this is going to be for buildings less than 50,000 ft². The idea here is that they're going to offer you with technical assistance. So, you look at the whole building for energy and electrification opportunities. They'll cover up to $7,000 when you when
you engage with one of their sponsors. U and then we have to then the the town or the municipality has to support 50% above that $7,000 if it's necessary on there. Path three incentives are based on what
you can save. So based on uh you know this is going to be more think of renovations. So think of uh you know tightening the building envelope, lighting controls, uh energy recovery systems, uh um variable flow kitchen,
you know, do domestic hot water and and low flow fixtures. You can get up to 35 cents a kilowatt hour or $2 per therm. Okay, once again capping at 3 million. Oh, I love that number. Okay. Um, heat pump
incentives first 300 tons. 300 tons is quite a bit. 300 tons, you know, um, basically that's still like the primary school would still fall under 300 tons. So, to give you an idea, but air source heat pumps 800 bucks. Variable
refrigerant VRF is variable refrigerant systems. This is usually means that you already have duck worked in and you're going to use a variable refrigerant to make it more efficient, you get up to $1,200 a ton. And then if you're going to do a ground source heat pump, which is what the state's really pushing, you
can get up to $3,600 bucks. But if you look at the price, we could show you pricing ideas later, but it's ridiculous. Okay. Um I'm on slide 18, uh which is going to be they just want to be uh you know, basically they're looking to improve the compliance with
the energy codes. Uh, and they want to basically show that municipal buildings can do these things that when the builders complain that they can't hit the stretch code, that they can't do this, can't do that. If municipal buildings can do it, if public spaces can do it, they should be able to do it easily.
Uh, slide 19 is basically saying they're giving us they'll give free trainings, they give webinars in in-person classroom settings. They have tools that will basically you plug stuff in, it spits out what you need, spits out suggestions. Um there is a some
in-person assistance. There's technical support hotline all available for it. They basically want you to support um all the way up to slide 21 already. Um sorry advanced development of adoption of codes and standards. I'm not going to
go too far in there. Um stretch code in municipal buildings. I'm not going to go there. There is a specialized energy code is what they're trying to push for now. So you can get even more incentives if you want to hit the specialized energy code. I don't think we're ready for that. And then um skip all the way
to slide um uh 24. So you know all as I mentioned specialized optin codes, zero energy pathway, all electric pathway, mixed fuel pathway. So they are it's kind of this was contradictory terms in a way because in other
presentations they talked about how um using fossil fuels below a certain temperature is actually the most cost effective and fuel efficient way of doing it because the electric once you go below some certain temperature depending on the building doesn't become
as efficient. So here I'm telling you they're telling you to go all electric, but they're also saying don't you don't you don't have to get rid of fossil fuels. Um I'm going to skip that one and I go right to and that's that's basically that was it for that presentation. Okay. So what they're
basically saying is um you know get the folks involved, get them involved early, get them involved often. All right. So, now I need to jump to the other slide deck, and I'm going to need you to go all the way
to slide 34, 33. Beautiful. So, as I mentioned, first step is reach out to your National Grid rep. We have a great rep in um oh boy, now I'm going to just blank. Matt O'Keefee from Unatil. And then as says
Sean Cruz from um National Grid both have been fantastic. Um Matt was instrumental in getting us everything we needed for the primary school. I re highly recommend them. The other big thing is that they have is they talk about grant writing and project
expediter vendor resources available. The idea is that we do not have to do all the work. We don't have to fill out the paperwork. don't have to do you work with their project expediters and they will do all of the paperwork all the verification for us type of thing.
So technical assistance studies, I'm not going to get into this too much, but there's a product pri portfolio prioritization plan. This is that they look at 20 up to 20 municipal buildings. They tell you what you got, how long they think it's going to last, which one
should be done first, and giving a prioritization to what so it's a complete overview for the town. We're in the middle of trying to get one of these done. A C and I'm going to skip let me go to slide 2035. This is talks about the PPP the product
portfolio productization. Uh it's a good starting point. It basically for us as a town 20 buildings kind of gives us the complete inventory of everything we've had. We've had the initial meeting with them. They I just got owe them a little bit more information and then we supposed to get a report 3 months ago
but hopefully we get a report within the next 3 weeks >> and that's free. >> That's free that was paid for by your unit ex wonderful bill that you're paying for. Then the CBA. CBA is a comprehensive building assessment. This is now they go into the nitty-gritty.
They look at weatherization. They look at partial or full electrification. They look at the controls. They basically tell you a plan on how to electrify the building, how to get the envelope tight, and what they think and give you some idea of what the cost is going to be.
So, we went and we had two of these done. One on the town side, one on the uh uh school side. So, we had the public safety building done and we had turkey hell. So, the next slide, slide 37 is the uh they were done probably over the winter. Yes. Spring. So, we have that. I
owe you guys that information. Um but for the public safety building, they talked about window and exterior weather is weather stripping. They talked about uh roof and attic installation. They kind of give us a simple payback of how when it's going to happen, how much we're going to get, lighting and occupancy control, uh, building
management system improvements. So, they basically have some of the things that we've already pointed out ourselves. They just highlighted that as well. This is what they have as a lowhanging fruit. This is what they have is that they can help with right away type of thing with incentives with other things that they
can get. The second half talks about the electrification and this is now looking at different ways to electrify like they talked about here for the bu public safety building domestic hot water heater with storage tanks. They talked about an air-to-air uh heat pump for the
apparatus bay. They talk about partial displacement um and then full displacement of the air handlers give you an estimated cost. Give you some savings. if you're going to see the energy cost savings are going to go up because they're looking at as you're using electricity. They're not really
supplementing the fossil fuels as much, but what they're also looking at it is that the longer lifespan and that you get and that you'll save after that. So, that was the public safety mill. I'll send you guys all this presentation ahead of time for Turkey Hill. Excuse my cracking voice here. [clears throat]
Change of going through that phase in life. Um, exterior door weather stripping. They talked about that. window replacements to give you an idea of what they thought the window replacements would be. Boiler feed path uh um uh DCV, this is basically um separating the gym and the cafeteria
from the rest of the system, kitchen hood controls. So many of the stuff is available through green grants. Many of the stuff is available with other incentives. They're not telling you what the incentives are. They're basically telling you what they think the costs are. And then they talked about the electrification. They talked about what it would be to separate the gym,
separate the cafeteria, what it would be to uh do a partial or full change in the classrooms and things like that to give us a general idea. So, this is just to give you an idea of what the CBA and what the freebies from the that the state is offering us. So, this was done
by Rise Energy. Rise Energy, if you ever seen the Nancy Carrian ads, she's still being famous in Massachusetts for some reason. And uh basically, that's who that's who did it for us. This is the other one is they have what these folks is project expediters. Rise is one of those. There's many vendors
that do this. Project expediters will come in, give you a full cost analysis, talk to you about all the incentives available, fill out the paperwork, fill out the grant stuff, do all that wonderful stuff, do the work, and get it done type of thing. So, it's just another resource they have. Now, I'm
going to get I'm going to skip the incentives. I'm going to go to the mass save school one because I'm on slide 42. 42 they talk about training and support. So what we found is a lot of towns have um let me skip and go backwards here a
second. Let go to 43. So they h lot of towns now are having what this person they call municipal energy manager and this is either a town employee or a a it is somebody who like mult that it got they received through grants or that
multiple towns share. So, as an example, if you go out to Amherst, there's four towns there that share one individual. This individual's job is to look at energy savings and to do grant writing. So, that's all they do is that people approach them and say, "Look, I need to
do this." They look at what grants are available, they write the paperwork, they do the paperwork, and that's how they basically look to pay for the salary type of thing. Now, this is now that what's happening is National Grid is now sponsoring this. They're sponsoring for the schools primarily,
but it's also to help the municipal energy management plans as well. So, this is up to 120k a year for 3 years full-time covers the wages, salaries, everything. So, this would be somebody that we can either bring on or that's, you know, or that we can look to get
funding to get um they do have this. They're also offering this through UMass Lowel and BEu. They do environmental science engineers that are in junior senior that they're looking to do this as interns and things like that. So they offer you those their services for 6
months. So what do they do? These guys actually I'm going to go back to 42. They do training and support. So they have a network together. They talk about what they've done. They have people to support them that's they can go to and say, "Hey, uh, does anybody know anybody who's gotten some money for this?" And
they work to help each other. They have monthly meetings. They do site visits to high efficiency buildings so they can see what ideas come up, what other people are doing. And the big thing is is it's the idea is that the MA, you know, they're looking at it as train the trainer. So the idea is that they're
trying to train these people, get these people working together, build a community that they can all work off each other. Um, so key takeaways is 44. Reach out to National Grid, get the studies done, use the PEX vendors to get electrification,
and take advantage of incentives. Okay, any questions? I didn't take a breath. So, any questions? Okay. >> Where does the majority of electricity in Massachusetts, what generates that electricity? So um well Unatil is the it doesn't
generate any of its own. Um it's using either the you know local solar farms or it gets it from somewhere else. The other providers have I think some of them have farms some of them have other ways of doing it. >> It's fossil fuels. >> It well >> like this push to electricity is
>> or hydro. >> Great. There is some hydro. >> Well anything coming from Canada is pretty much hydro. the majority of it is fossil fuels. >> Today, 20 years from now, I think the [clears throat] state has been pushing for electric because its view is that
it's going to be less fossil, more renewable, and I think that's what it's pushing for and it needs so that's where I think it's going. But it's the state. We don't have any control over what their rules are. Oh, we we have control, but not in this group. It's just it's
difficult when we're locked into one electrical provider and we have the highest rates in the state. It's very difficult. Like this push for electric cars, I just want to laugh at because I'd rather not have to rely on Unatil and whatever they set
their rates at for everything. Um, so I get the push and I I understand that it's because it would be a distribution network that would be um changeable and and would be able to be evolved to evolve. But I'm also
suspicious of this push to move our heating and our transport to move everything to electric um all at once. And the part about the heat pumps, uh, there were people who got in trouble last winter because they took incentives
to move their houses entirely to heat pumps. Doesn't work under 30°. >> Well, as somebody who's used heat pumps throughout the year, it does work under 30. However, and also the incentives were not to go full electric. Your
incentive was to supplement your fossil to supplement your heat system. So the idea is you don't turn your heat on until the temperature is well below a set uh is below a set temperature. So mine set so that I start using my fossil fuels when it's below 30 30° outside
>> sustained. No, I think the reality is for Lun especially for for any municipality broadly, but especially for Lunenburgg, Fitchburg, anyone who has Unatil as their provider or anyone that
is paying an exaggeratedly large rate for electricity compared to the average for the state. Um there are really distinct clear environmental benefits both immediate or mediate- term,
medium-term and long-term for transitioning to a to using the grid. Um even if the grid is being largely powered by fossil fuels. That said, the issue that municipalities like us face is the cost and uh where we are looking
at saying we need to be costefficient about everything we do right now. Is it worth it for us? And those are numbers that have to be run because if we go major if we go all or majority
electric that's great. If it's a net neutral co, if with these incentives, it's long-term a net neutral or net benefit. But if it's going to cost us longer in the long term, we have to we have to keep we don't have
the luxury of the state with a much bigger ability to slush money or the federal who can even slush money further. Municipalities in that way budget closer to the way you might expect a house to. >> Okay. Dave, the uh
this this program was about how to make the best use of the Mass Save grants and programs that are out there. Um when you look at the buildings that we want to talk about here is the second part of our conversation.
um is the building code going to change and what is the Massachusetts uh school building agency what's their position with regards to um the things that you've briefed in in other words we got one part of the state that's encouraging
to us to go to um no fossil fuels right >> but then we have the nuts and bolts people people who write the codes the people who fund the school projects are are they going to bring that same that same type of mindset, you know, to the
projects that we potentially have that are going to take place in Munberg. >> So, so what did they say about code compliance and >> they're steering you? They're steering you towards electrical. [laughter] >> So, that's that's going to be a part of their that is currently because we're
going to apply come the 1 of January hopefully. And if that's the case, are they on board with this? And and do they have the technical capability to deliver what the mass program is trying to do, i.e. get us to um no no fossil fuels in
the buildings that we want to construct or renovate. They they do have the same incentives. So the there is a for the MSBA they are putting some huge incentives for weatherization for up weatherization first. So whe whether
that's weather stripping, new windows, new you know insulation just that first but heat pump conversion is definitely becoming a much more critical part of it. They feel it not only does it help when it comes to efficiency it becomes a
better uh environmental air quality environment in the building as well. So they're looking at that as as a secondary reason uh when it comes to the schools. If I remember correctly from the study we did last year, the firm mentioned that the MSBA
at that time was only paying for electric and heat pump systems, but because the Turkey Hill system was in decent enough condition, they actually recommended that we just pay for that. >> So, so pay for what? >> Pay pay to maintain the fossil fuel
system. But that's we don't have to. Um, and I think what Dave outlined here, there's more incentives than I had realized. Correct. There's there there is another program and I look forward to talking in front of the school board. >> Oh, I got a lot of >> for the accelerated repair program and
that's, you know, that is a January 1 January deadline. Anyhow, >> and thank you so much for all of this information. >> No problem. So, the main reason I wanted to give this was more to talk about what is a renovation more than anything else. what triggers all these things from the
state. So, um, as we look at these buildings and what we're going to look to do with things, that's what I felt was more critical. So, most everything that I looked at it now, they're telling us is that almost anything we do is going to be considered a major renovation. >> So, I have a question of the the um the
programs that you just touched upon, are 100% of those funded by rateayers? Um the ones I've touched on is yes I think is pay is paid by rate payment. >> So I think that is a very important distinction for uh everyone to
understand is all of those programs are being funded by anyone that pays an electric bill or a gas bill. >> Correct. And other towns are taking care of it. I mean are taking advantage of >> and I I would further recommend each person here as well as the public review
the state auditor's audit of Massave. >> Okay. Is there a particular reason or >> Well, because it's it's quite damning. >> Okay. Okay. >> Have we had an energy audit on this building? >> We we have not done this building. So, I
looked we we're starting to I you know, we're pushing for the CBAs. >> Um and we, you know, the first one we had done. Right now, it's a matter of we we went through the process once. Now, we can look at other we could we have it available for other buildings. I wanted to kind of get a feel for what what they
were going to do for us and what what came out of it. Felt it was worthwhile exercise and it makes sense to look at other buildings now. I'm not sure what I don't know if I want to hear hear what they're going to do.
>> You don't you don't want to hear this one. >> Exactly. >> From the daylighting in the >> Yes. In the roof. Yeah. >> Number one option insulate the building. >> Yes. So, and there are incentives, by the way, for insulation. It's like a dollar a linear foot. I mean, it's there's some
incentives for everything. Unfortunately, they're all based on mass prevailing wage, which is the other problem with things. However, there's incentives for everything. Now, um building man insulation, building management systems, weatherization, all
these things. There are incentives out there for >> you get them if you Well, we'd be doing a math master wage anyway. any kind of job we've been doing, right? >> Well, it depends if you do it internal. So, if you just did the insulation, >> let's see. >> You know, you have to make that trade-off of whether it's
>> worth that capacity. >> That's a [laughter] big, >> right? Only other trick is to hire an owner operator. >> Yeah. >> You haven't done any napkin sketch math on any of the buildings, have you? To to to figure out what the rough like a rough max incentive would be.
>> I I haven't done a napkin on any of I just, you know, as >> because I was looking at some of those incentives like a dollar a square foot. >> Yes. >> I mean, not that we'd ever scoff at money, but you're talking, >> right? >> We're talking about 300 plus dollars a
square foot construction cost. So, >> understand and what I also saw on the chart was cost to make the change versus the savings. And no place no place on that chart does it show that the cost to
make the change is even going to get close to what you save >> the actual capital only. Yeah. >> And I and I think that you know there's there's two things here. One is we got we got a program that we all pay for you know and should we take advantage of
that of that program? And then the second and I think the answer to that question to the greatest extent possible we should since we're paying for it. But the other issue which I think is completely missed in this discussion we keep I hear keep national grid national grid but we don't pay for our
electricity to national grid. We pay to UNEL which is the highest you know the highest rates for electricity in the state of Massachusetts which makes this all much more difficult to accept. Now, if there was a way that Mass Safe says,
"Oh, well, we're going to, you know, kind of level off the costs of electrical electrical rates across the state, municipals, uh, investorowned utilities, and those rates become more uniform across the state, then that makes, you know, taking advantage of
these programs and going all electric more acceptable to do. you know, like like I do have electric car and one of the things that I discovered was that if I char I supercharge my Tesla at a a supercharger site over
in uh by Whitneyfield Mall during the day, it's only a penny more than what I pay to charge my car at night at my home because I got to pay Unatel their outrageous rates. And if I would charge
my Tesla at that supercharger site before 9:00 in the morning or after 9:00 in the morning, it's actually 10 cents a kilowatt hour cheaper, you know. So, we have had a lot of discussion about how
to save energy and how to convert fossil fuel to all energy, but this isn't about saving money. Not not not with the current setup that we have. Now, once again, I think that if we got some things that we should take advantage of, we should and and we have benefited
greatly from having things like the heat pumps at the primary school. You >> those are all wonderful things that have happened and and we need to continue to do those. But they have but this has the the conversion from, you know, fossil fuel to electric. When Taylor and Barnes
made their presentation in February 2025, we talked about the issues associated with going all heat pump. And I remember that gentleman right there, Mr. Alonzo raising the issue and the the engineer who was responsible for that
that package you know the mechanical engineering uh or mechanical electrical package you know he basically said we'll we'll look at both you know because quite honestly you know given what we pay for electricity in this area fossil fuel is still going to be cheaper. Now
if the state comes back and says you can't use fossil fuels anymore that's a different story. Dave, what how did you find out about these programs and how did you find out about the the uh the meeting that was held today, the online meeting that was
held today? How did you get on that list? >> Um just because of the green committee and different things of that sort. >> Did did like in the historic preservation world in Massachusetts, they actually have um a list served that's managed by um uh Boston College. Okay. Is there something similar for
these energy saving pieces? >> I don't know who's, you know, who's managing, but it's through, it's through our the DOER and the green communities that we get it >> cuz cuz there's good information here and we got to make sure that we capture that information. >> And what else I'll think this crowd is
would be I'll send the link to all of the presentations, the full presentations. There's one on the K through2 schools. There's other ones. There's one on different heat pump technology. take your take your pick, enjoy for great uh library reading um
and things of that sort. >> Will you come talk to the school committee about this? >> Yes. Yeah. This because it's a different presentation. >> Yeah, I watched the finance committee one and >> this is different like you've got a lot of info. >> I agree. But that's why I'm trying to I'm trying to condense >> Yeah. >> six hours worth of presentations into 20
20 minutes. And I did put my my New York hat and talk fast, but it's still 20 minutes this time. Um, do our municipal buildings and and their lots really I care more about here like here town center ask the the area we're
more concerned about and the larger municipal buildings thinking less about like the primary in this case are they all on natural gas lines >> do we have all is Ritter is library is
senior center is TCP is >> okay >> teen center is oil. Public safety's oil. >> Is it really? Oh my god. >> I know public safety that that it doesn't run quite that far. Does it does it run that far? Does it run? >> And we looked into the public safety
building at one point and the problem we have is that both providers are a mile from the building and neither provider wants to do the >> Yeah, we >> we've talked we've talked about that on capital planning in regards to >> May Lunberg has a long history of being
pennywise pound foolish and golly would it have been a better savings if we had run that pipe when that building was built. The number I was told was 40 grand. They said no to it. >> Yes. Um Okay. No, the reason I was asking is I developed this fear of okay,
if if there's a big push for electric, are we going to end up in a situation where getting fossil fuels to these other buildings is going to become is not going to stay at the current rate but is going to increase greater than the general rate of fossil fuels due to
lower demand and thus not having the same supply system in place. But if if it's all piped natural gas, that's not going away anytime soon. So, I'm less I'm less concerned about that on like a 30-year arc. >> Do you need I don't have a natural gas
anything at our house cuz it was 50,000 20 years ago to bring it down our street. Um do you need electricity to run a natural gas to run natural gas heat? Okay. cuz I'm >> minimal, but enough to >> very cognizant of the fact that, you know, less than 20 years ago, we had an
ice storm that led to 12 days without power. Um, and people living at Turkey Hill in the shelter, >> right? >> So, yeah, >> I don't disagree like like I think that's a valid point. I I think it's
worth considering. I am very happy to discuss my qualms with UNATIL at length. However, I will give them credit. It is my understanding that the situation that led to those weeks without power over a month in parts of Lunenburgg and
Fitchburg um that the situation that led to that and the poor line maintenance has been rectified since. So I think I think we're less likely to encounter that kind of scenario [clears throat] than I mean it's not zero but it was
>> a lot of energy. >> Yeah. In part because I think otherwise they were fearing armed rebellion from these towns. >> Oh I remember the constant power outages before I think 2014. It was constant like every time there was a storm you would just lose power
and it has been my kids were expecting to lose it today and we're disappointed they didn't came to my house uh just a few weeks ago and asked permission to remove all of the screening uh on my sideyard uh for
the power. I politely declined that um >> so credit where credit is gone. We move to the second item workshop. >> We could talk about unitel for hours and that's not why we're here. >> Thanks. >> That was Mike. >> All right. So, um,
so there's a number of things to talk about with regards to all the buildings. There's been a lot of talk. Um, to me, and I want to hear what everyone else thinks, of course, but to me, the number one priority is TCP. I feel like
we talked about this a bit at our goal discussion. Um, we're at a fork in the road of and I know Chris has capital items pending which which part of that fork we take um
of renovating and um demolition of TCP not and demolition if it's demolition it doesn't mean what's it going to be what's the five-year plan nothing like that just the first step is just
deciding if it's something to renovate or are we do we think and and I don't to be clear I don't expect a decision tonight I think it would be foolish to to decide tonight but I think getting the folks around this table together is
the import is the first step in in coming to that decision >> madam chair before we start can we back up a little bit and just go to what the discussion was leading up to town meeting um with the partial decommissioning that we did.
>> Um I know some people have seen this memo, but it was a long time ago from Chris that he put together um in January as we were approaching the budget about um the why the partial decommissioning of TCP, his expected cost savings and it
versus his actual cost savings and some recommendations. >> Um I'd like for Chris to kind of walk through that. This is what led to the decision to not continue funding. And Chris has the operational annual operational costs
outlined here as well. >> And and I think it goes back to the start of the plan goes back to Carter, right? >> Oh, well before it it goes way back. I mean >> way but it's it's definitely >> Yeah, it's at a different rate right now. >> So I think it's it starts with the
discussion of the really what's outlined in your memo here. Just to recap for the public, too. >> Yeah. >> So, looking at TCP, you know, there's been all kinds of >> I I object to us talking about the
building first. And here's the reason why. We haven't seen the building and I have been advi I have been advocating that the that the the commission that the committee that the select board asked to
look at buildings the municipal buildings that we tour the building as a group and and I I feel like we've spent so much time talking about conditions that we really need to talk about what
do we need for you know base needs. What are our requirements and that if we understand what our requirements are then you can say how do we satisfy our requirements? Do we look
at the building known as TCP? Do we look at new space? Do we look at renovation renovated space someplace else? So I think that if you know like I have been an advocate for us to look at these buildings as a group for us to
understand what do we need in a way of facility space and then you can decide whether or not the building needs to be formed whether it needs to be repaired some or all and I think that if we focus
on for tonight's meeting because I don't think we're going to make we're not going to reach any decisions tonight Renee I don't want to be honest >> I but I don't think we would I mean I so I think that what we need to do is we need to we need to kind of start this process with the end in mind and that is
what do we need space for you know do we need space for the town clerk you know for voting voting equipment do we need space for storage do we need space for community activities that we need to have those types of discussions
and at the same time we're evaluating whether that particular building like for example >> but you know so so I I mean that's my thoughts is that that we that we not jump in we have spent so much time jumping into conditions and we have
spent so little time looking at what is the what are the town's needs for space okay I appreciate but however we have the what we've been one of the things that have come up in our discussions is that we do need to look at all of you
know try not to have vacant buildings and to look at all of the buildings and what they can do and what what I'm looking to try to do is that what the idea would right now is to understand whether there is a path to renovation
at Pacios even if we wanted to think about it >> or not. >> Okay. Okay. So, as I was mentioned, it's the idea would be if we're changing the use, it's going to be triggering a major renovation, which means everything has to be brought up to today's codes and
standards. So, basically, you're looking at we would have a shell and go and going from there. You're just going to have outside walls and start from there. And Madam Chair, the reason why I wanted to start with Chris respectfully and to go back to
that is there are people who are turning it tuning into this conversation for the first time. They missed this conversation as part of the budget conversation. They've missed it as part of conversations that have happened at FINCOM or your meetings or capital planning meetings. I know that because
just yesterday I advertised the 925 RFP on social media and I hear a lot of conversation. What's happening with the food pantry? Why are they looking for space? So, respectfully, I would like to start this conversation if we can with the current status of where this is,
why, what the funding status is for the building's operations into FY27 to just lay the foundation for the remainder of the conversation. And we're not asking for any decisions, but what I'm asking for is the latitude to allow Chris to present in
a somewhat comprehensive manner so that everybody is at the same baseline of understanding before the conversation kicks off. >> Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think knowing the current status of TCP is important for everyone here as well.
>> So, thank you. I I agree quite a bit with what Tony said. My only comment on that is the town over the past, call it 50 years, has made a real habit of making it work in spaces. Look at upstairs in town hall. Look at downstairs in town hall. Look at Ritter. We just stuff people where it works cuz
it makes sense. So, if we're going to do something, we need to do it right the first time cuz we're never getting the money to do it again. At least not in any of our lifetimes. Um, that being said, TCP right now to even save it as an option is going to be quite expensive. Step one, we need a roof on
the building. Well, let's let's go back to Chris to >> where where the because not everybody at this table is even necessarily aware of what decommissioning has taken place, what hasn't. So, let's just start with where we are. >> What who are the users? >> So, the building has been winding down
over several years. The school department's been out. We've had a few users in there. Once the school department moved entirely out, we thought, let's decommission the building or part of the building to save on energy because we were spending the gas bill was 50 grand a year. So, in theory,
we thought, all right, if we shut half the building off, disconnect the sprinklers, the heat, we hope to see close to a 50% energy savings. We got about 20%. Part of that is TCP used to heat the old high school. So, even the boilers idling are wildly inefficient
for the use that we have. On top of that, the systems weren't maintained for however many years, call it, I guess, since about '08. And I don't fault the school for why they did it because they had no students in the building. Spend the money where the students are. Easy decision. That being
said, the building has deteriorated for years without there's a list of 20 from 2008 from John L, who was the facilities director at the time. Not a single item on it was done. And that list totaled $15 million in today's dollars. just to just to maintain. None of that's
been done. The you know, so at 50% we're shut down. We keep having all kinds of problems pop up. We just had a boiler inspection for the state, which is required because we're over 200,000 BTUs. It failed. In 30 days, the state's going to start to find us if we don't fix this boiler that we currently have
no intention of running through the winter. Now, it's probably about five grand to repair it. How many times are we going to keep throwing money at something we have no clue what to do with is my biggest point. You know, if we want to start somewhere to save the building, we had to put the roof on
what's not decommissioned. $1.3 million. And that was estimated in the winter, so it's probably gone up a little bit. That That's just to put a roof on it to say stop the deterioration. >> So, what what sections would that roof be? >> That would be
I got one. I I have one for me and I have one I can pass around. >> You can probably see it on GIS. >> I thought we had expended at town meeting a few times money to repair the roof. >> We never spent it. >> Okay. Why not?
>> So let if I can sure you actually at the last town meeting in the at the May town meeting, we fixed some of that. Okay. So there was um an article at town meeting to repair an area over the decommission
section. It was to cover six classrooms. Um, it was actually Ronda Lissio listening in one of these meetings who said to me that the uh vote at town meeting was extremely specific to those six classrooms and the presentation was
specific and that the recommendation was strong that it ought to go back to town meeting and looking at what was voted at town meeting. After review, I absolutely concurred with that recommendation. So thankfully we didn't spend that money because that
money was double appropriated. That was the money that was double appropriated. There is no funds currently appropriated for the roof. The 300,000 that was appropriated for the roof was counted twice. And again that
was over uh six rooms in the decommission section that were primarily over where the school administration offices were being >> you got it. >> Oh yeah. That's where the roof >> What What's the What's the condition of the roof where the blue is, Chris? >> Um,
>> when was the last replaced? >> 86. And they went over the existing tar and gravel. >> What What type of roof is it? >> EPDM. >> Is it leaking? >> Everywhere. The Every time we walk on it to look for the leaks, we're causing more damage because the oil has come out
of the rubber. And there is no saving at this point. They reamed it in 2012, and we're likely told it would buy him a year or two. in 2012. >> Chris, can you for I just want to share. Can you do you have an electronic? >> No.
>> Um I am going to send a photograph of it to the select board and then I'm going to also forward that same file to the um to the municipal building design committee. I'm doing that right now. So can I go back to when we so we we
expect town meeting voted to appropriate incorrectly but we voted to appropriate the money for the roof repairs and then we decided >> no you meeting voted to fund a project with money that it was not authorized to
use. So there was that money had already been used to fund a different project. Okay. So it was double funding. >> When was that? >> What year was that? So I can >> in November 2023 approved. >> I'm gonna pull I'm gonna pull up from this past town meeting because we had a
whole article on this past town meeting to correct this issue and I'll share it on the screen so people can look at that. >> Um I'm talking but did the town approve uh $300,000 in 2023? >> So I just said I am going to pull up that presentation from this last town
meeting and I'll share that with everybody. However, that presentation to town meeting was specific about that location. I went back, I viewed the presentation to town meeting. There was there was overhead uh powerpoints
presented that showed the areas. It was extremely specific, but that $300,000 was not correctly appropriated and town meeting corrected that this past annual town meeting. And I'm going to pull up that diagram and show that
because I think it is best done through a visual. >> I guess my question is was the issue that we wanted to repair something ignoring the double appropriation issue which I know is hard to do but ignoring the double appropriation issue and the fact that the money's not there for us
to spend. Was there a reason we didn't go forward with >> Yes, we decommissioned the school department moved out. The school department the school department moved out from that section of the building last July. That section of the building
was decommissioned full Novemberish December >> is is before the heating season. And so with us decommissioning and by Chris when we talk about decommissioning all of the water has terminated. >> There's no water, there's no electric,
there's nothing. You go through a fire door that we built and there's no power. >> Yeah. It's okay. Right. So, we're not criticizing. I wanted to know if we had discovered something up on the roof that led to realizing it was going to be more money or if there was a higher priority elsewhere.
>> Um, >> no, it was an illeg illegal appropriation. >> Okay. And thank you. And then and that is and when that was raised and then we went back and and at that point I asked Chris can you now get me a price for the
remaining area we'll go back to town meeting and that's when the million plus dollar number evolves. So >> let me pull up that slide. >> What was the illegal when was the illegal appropriation? >> I am happy to pull that up as soon as I can.
>> While Miss Warren's pulling that up. Um, select board, you have it with an email just titled TCP. It's the second one of those emails cuz I forgot to attach. Don't laugh. I got it. I got it. >> I mean, I deserve it. But and uh, municipal building design committee. I
just sent it along attached to the most recent scheduling email. >> Thanks. You know, we had conversations when the the municipal building design committee was chaired by Michael Ray Jeff about the roof and um and TC Pacios because it
had an impact on um the school and whether or not they were going to move into the Taylor and Burns project that we were working on. And you know, and I think I raised the issue of we had $300,000 appropriated in November 2023.
And why did we not repair the roof with those funds even if it meant that we were going to repair the roof over the section that the school committee was currently occupying? Because there was a potential that the
Taylor and Barnes project was not going to get funded. I mean, there's all there was always that potential and it was like, should we not have a backup plan? Now, as it turns out, the school committee came up with their own backup plan. >> But the the November what
>> we're roof is problem one. >> What? Yeah. >> That we're not even addressing the rest of >> Let me let me finish because the issue was >> we had $300,000 approved by the town in 2023. Why was that not spent? >> I thought we did. Well, that's what I'm
asking was what made that illegal? >> I am ready to share. >> Okay. What made that illegal? >> Why are we >> that can't put the toothpaste back in the tube? Why are we re revisiting the decommissioned? >> I asked cuz I was curious if [laughter] we had discovered something on the roof when we went to look
>> that that part of the building is shut off. >> If we went to look closer or if there were further issues. That's why I was >> And Renee, I'm bringing it up because we've had a committee in this town that has been charged with dealing with municipal buildings. And this committee as a group has never been in this
building where we could look at this stuff. We could talk about it and we could make some sense of whether or not we are going down the right path. >> Well, I must say though, I think the original committee >> was in the building. Yes. Well, some of us you were Yeah, you were you were in
the committee fair though was a long time ago. >> Yeah, that's right. You were >> hasn't gotten any better deteriorated slightly. But this is this is my my pitch is that you charge this committee with looking at buildings and coming up
with a plan for better time administrative space for our employees, which I think is really critical. Yet, as a group, we've not been in that building it since this committee got charged in July of 2025. >> So, Tony, I'm happy to take anyone for a
tour between 7 and three because I can't turn. >> I'm ready to go. I I've been on the committee for a number of years now and we decided as a committee that we were going to focus on this building in Ritter for the town offices. So, we
weren't we weren't going to be needing to look at that building for that. the when I before I was on the committee that was brought up and then the cost was too high. So that's why we were looking at it. Now we we haven't for a while because >> I I I would agree on we have the
information on the article now. All right. >> Thank you, Madam Chair. So if folks can see it's being shared on that back screen there. I can zoom in a little bit more. Okay. >> Can we see that? Can you read it or do you need me to keep zooming? >> I'd say zoom the other way. [laughter]
Well, I'm trying to get to the text for the people to read at home. >> Well, that's >> okay. >> So, May 2022 annual town meeting as part of the FY23 capital plan, there was $325,000
appropriated for hazardous abatement at the old primary school. Okay. That project was ultimately funded with other funds. So, in November 2023,
$300,000 was transferred from the FY23 capital plan to fund the roof repair. >> Was that illegal? >> Nope. >> Okay. >> I cannot answer for you why that project
can I was not here in 2023 and neither were the people the decision makers in the room to answer that question for you. Oh, actually some of us were because we raised the issue in >> the town manager, the finance director. Were you here in 2023?
>> Not staff, but the committee members, some of the committee, >> Tony, the reality is the school said they were planning to move out and wasting $300,000 on a section roof that no one was going to be under. It slowed the process down and then we discovered the other issues and the school moved out anyway. >> I don't disagree with that. Okay. So
when when this happened when this change happened in November of 2023 that never got changed in Munice. It should have been changed in Munice. It should have showed in Munice that the funds had moved from the primary school
abatement project in the capital plan. And so it should have shown that they were no longer existing in the FY23 capital plan. That change didn't happen in the system. So now you have a new finance director and a new town manager who come in and see a capital plan with
unappropriated funds. And actually I think that this was Carter actually who had done the I'm not sure but it was either Carter or myself who was in the transition for the funding for the capital plan to use in FY26 under article 20 article 12 that
same 325 from the FY23 capital plan to f to fund the FY26 capital plan. So it was being used for the FY26 capital plan and the roof project at TCP. So, we didn't move forward on any of the projects. We
went to town meeting in May. We presented this article for the reauthorization. We got the reauthorization to move the money from the FY23 to the FY26. And now several projects that we held because we
didn't have the money can move forward. But that money was voted by town meeting to no longer there's no question town meeting made the correction. There's no money appropriated for the roof. >> So Chris, do you want to cover the other
items that were included in your >> So just to run through them. Um we talked about the roofs. We talked about the boilers. So the boilers are all wildly oversized since they used to heat the old school. Um there's several issues with leaks. Um the pressure
relief valve was failing. We knew that. That's what the state inspectors just caught. Um the heat exchanger system has a serious leak. Um our hot water system is only operating at 50%. Um there's also somewhere a crossover. When I first
came on board, the uh school department let me know that in the winter sometimes they got hot water out of their faucets, which meant when the heat's kicking, they're getting hot water. So that means there could have been glycol in the water. Who knows? Um, there's a secondary boiler in there that we can't
control at the moment. It cost us about $10 to $15,000 to be able to even control it. So, when that first one fails, we're 15 grand in 3 months to even turn the other one on without some creative jury rigging. >> And Chris, is it an issue getting parts for these? Cuz I know
>> everything's uh the newer boiler is okay. The problem with the leak is they have to take the whole thing apart to find it. So, it's just a lot of labor just to find where the actual leak is. the oldest boiler would struggle. The the other boilers are probably okay there. Um the HVAC and control system is
all controlled off of Windows XP, so nothing can talk to that anymore. Um the HVAC systems are ancient and haven't been controlled. Actually, we found recently in the two HVAC units that control the gym air hadn't been
maintained and it was either 22 or 23 years cuz they actually wrote the last date they changed the filters on. They actually built a ceiling in the way and took out staircases that led to the mechanical rooms. It was up above the stage. Um, I mentioned the domestic hot water system, but it also has lead in
the water. So, anyone that uses the building has to sign a waiver saying they acknowledge not to drink the water. Uh the door systems are proprietary and you can't get parts anymore. In fact, when they took some of the doors off Turkey Hill, I asked them to save them just in case some of our doors failed,
we could cannibalize parts. Um there's air quality and mold issues throughout the building. When you walk into the back section, it hits you like a brick wall. Uh the building is full of asbestous. Uh like when we went to go decommission the building, we thought we
knew where the pipes are. We had a section of the ceiling abaded, disconnected all the pipes, turned the water back on, and sure enough, came flowing out of other pipes that were crossconnected. So, another $5,000 just to open the ceiling to find the hole and fix that. Um, also, any renovation we're doing, we're looking at probably
$800,000 to a million in asbesus remediation that no matter what we do, we have to spend that money and it's not going to get any cheaper. So, if it's a million today, next year's is going to be a million, you know, 1.1. It's just going to keep going up.
>> I I don't doubt that that building is in bad shape. >> Can I my presentation? I'd like to make >> Oh, I thought you were done. >> Oh, no. Sorry. All right. Just taking a breather. Go ahead. >> Um >> the building is loaded with lead paint, which not the end of the world, but it's peeling everywhere. Um the main electric
system in the building. Um the main transformers you typically see on the poles are inside of the building. Terrifying situation cuz you're walking into a room with a lot of voltage. You don't want to be there. and the transformers are leaking and need to be replaced. I don't have anything remotely close to a cost estimate. Um the
electrical distribution system within the building is a combination of breakers and still a lot of fuses to the point where where the school was still in there with extended day program. We had to replace fuses constantly because they had entire classrooms run off a 15 amp circuit with no AC. So the window
units popped them. Um building envelope hasn't had any upgrades in god knows how long. >> Oh, sorry. Sprinkler system. Yeah. Um, sprinkle system is wildly overdue and only sprinkles the hallways. None of the classrooms are sprinkled. Um, there's
all kinds of main valves that haven't been touched. Like, hell, when they flush the hydrants in the spring, my phone rings constantly cuz it sets off the fire alarms. Um, the I mentioned a little bit before the capital list from John L that was never touched that would have totaled out to
$15 million today. Um, you know, all of these systems are at the brink of failure. anything can go at any time. So, it's it's without a plan, it's a ton of money to invest in a building. And to my previous point of the town has a
history of making things work. TCP may have been a great school. The layout is terrible for what we want to use it for. So, we're saving it cuz the foundation isn't destroyed yet, but beyond that, there's not much use in that. Unless someone can show me a plan where they can redesign the building, and sure,
we'll look at it. But closing the building, we've already seen huge issues. You know, I think it was two or three weeks before the school called me looking to get back in to rent the gym. You know, it's all all the wreck programs, the food pantry doesn't have a home. Like there's there's a constant need for it. So, just with the municipal
design committee, we need to stop looking at just Ritter in town hall because we have a huge community issue. The location is fantastic for anything we do there. You know, personally, I think we should tear it down and build new. And I say that as a taxpayer and the facilities director, there is
nothing worth saving in that building. The, you know, the foundation's probably in decent shape. There's crawl spaces all over the place and manholes that have been sealed shut like inside the building. And the biggest studies that were done on it could never I mean, one of the ones from Georgia, which I'm kind
of upset cuz they're usually pretty good, said we didn't really look at the plumbing and mechanical systems cuz we couldn't find the drawings. Well, it took me 5 minutes to get a copy of the drawings. I called up a former select board member. He had scans of them, but we spent all this money on a design and had all these professionals do it. They never looked at it and then they
provided us a cost estimate that said it's $300 a square foot, which was CO numbers, and they never actually priced it. They just threw a $300 a square foot number at it, or if it was 300. So, everyone stopped looking at it because that cost. I think now it's time to look
at a community project of getting everything in one place. When I first moved into town, I came over to town hall to pull a building permit. Someone's like, "You have to go to Ritter." I had no idea what Ritter was. It's Oh, it's the white building in the center of town. They're all white. Like, [laughter]
you know what I mean? It's It's one of those Why do we have people walking across the street? I look out my window and I see staff going back and forth all day long. >> It's It's silly. Now, I understand it's it's a lot of money, but it's money we're going to get once. Let's just do
it, right? >> I think it's going to be years before we get a billion. I think that Chris makes a great case for what's wrong with the building, but that's not the issue. The issue is, do we need the building? You know, that's that's what we need to
focus on. And you know, I've heard Chris say in our Lunar Municipal Building Design Committee meetings that, you know, if we build a new building, he wants a 300T shop. if we are going to do storage of records, you know, he wants
that to be done in the new building. That may be the ultimate solution, you know, to do a new building. But what we know from experiences and what we've seen over the last 6 years that I've been living in this community is that that that there really
probably isn't a path forward to a new building. And one of the reasons why is because we haven't looked at what are our real facility needs in a comprehensive way. One of the, you know,
there's the schools, there's time buildings, there's public safety or time admin building, there's public safety, but there's only one taxpayer. And what the one taxpayer wants is for us to have a plan. And we don't have a plan. You
know, we have been focusing on this building and Ritter to sign the town the solve the town admin facility issues. Chris, you already said it is that there is probably a need for more space.
Maybe we can make that space work at TC Pacios in a smaller shape, a smaller footprint. Now, Chris, how many 55-year-old buildings have you taken from bad shape
to good shape? >> Quite a few, actually. >> All right, give give me an example. >> St. Paul's Cathedral Cathedral, Tremont Street, Boston on the National Historic Register. Okay, that was my project that I took from garbage to a very nice project. So, I've done
>> How did that work? a lot of private money with no prevailing wage. >> But it's my my point is sure we can make TCP work. We could dump $10 million into it and have something that kind of works. My point is we need to stop with the kind of works because that's why
we're where we are now. Nothing's been maintained. All of our buildings are falling apart because we just have to ask. >> I I don't disagree with you that we've had a very poor track. >> Can I ask a question? If if we need additional space beyond town hall and Ritter, if we find we need additional
space, is TCP footprint as it is now the space we want? Because I think I'm I my opinion right now is I I agree with Chris. I mean, I think the land and that location is more valuable than the
building. I mean, I can imagine that being a not the building not even being where TCP actually sits now. It could be totally reworked. There could be a park. There could be I mean, there could be a lot of things. >> You know, the master planner, Renee, did
actually make comments to that effect. When when uh our overunder folks came to town, one of the things that they said was that's really your time green. you know, where that the space between TCP and uh and the library and and in fact,
you know, we've had multiple activities take place there over the last couple of years and it is where band concerts are currently being held. >> I don't not at the pavilion. That is fantastic. >> Well, but it's it's in the same general vicinity.
>> It's at the adult activity center. [laughter] >> Those are private donated. those are not I think I want to address this from the planning perspective and and Tony is correct in that um that TCP that land
has been identified that spot has been identified as we have a de facto town green um we've got this beautiful stretch of publiclyowned land that connects all but one of our schools directly to the town center and
everything in between is beautiful and amazing that it exists. We are super fortunate. Renee to answer your question about does the current footprint of TCP would that be the best way to go? Again,
from a planning perspective, I'm going to tell you absolutely not. It is a great footprint for a school that was made many years ago. in practice, we could fit um and Greg, I would encourage
you to correct me if I'm wrong because you're an engineer and you deal in this more technically than I do, okay? But we could fit much, much much more utility, more use out of that same acreage with a
new footprint. And honestly, we could get more use out of it. Even if we wrapped in other uses, include if we just decided that we were going to put all municipal offices there with a fresh build, we could fit those and still have
room for other uses, maybe a park. I can tell you um that I've spoken with Mr. Wallace, our town planner, and um that location is dynamite for senior housing. And I think there also I mean and if you're going to talk about having senior
housing near schools, government offices, and the senior center, that's kind of amazing for both intergenerational interaction as well as having that housing need there. The
current footprint is deeply limiting to what could happen. And Chris, from what I think I'm getting from this discussion and the similar discussions you and I have had over the past couple years along the lines and other channels, um there isn't anything there that's even
monetarily necessarily worth saving. What once we take care of asbestous, once we take care of lead, that the building itself isn't going to save us that much if we were using it due to the amount of work that would be needed versus a fresh start. I agree to
a point because before I get kicked under the table, certain people think there's some value in some hooks and some cool hinges in the building. [laughter] >> I I do think there's some small salvage value that would be worth it [laughter] >> more of more of knickknacks than
anything, but the building as a whole is >> I mean it could be saved, don't get me wrong, but >> it's why spend a month for something that's not what we want. >> I'm sorry. >> That's fair. >> Madam Chair, >> who said it's not what we want? >> I am not. It's our it's >> both.
>> Okay. All right. So, I'll ask both of you. Go ahead. >> Ju just to we I don't disagree with anything you you said. And matter of fact, when we did the I think it was 2019, we started this when we did the the initial look at TCP
and we presented it to town meeting in 2020 or 2021, something like that. [snorts] It was a $30 million renovation project. for essentially renovating all of the TCP space. >> How much? >> We said I think it was 55,000 ft. That's
about right. >> I'm pulling this out of the archives here, but >> we we said to ourselves, man, that's a lot of money. Why don't we price what it would cost just to rip it down and build a new building? And you were correct in saying that the footprint significantly
improved. We got a lot more efficiency with the footprint fitting the same amount because we went I think three floors. I think we did three floors. So, the footprint got much more efficient, compact. We fit all the things in it that we needed to with a broad 10,000 ft brush.
We weren't we didn't do a detailed study, but the cost went to 40 million. So, um and this was co times. This is when we were seeing, you know, escalating costs beyond our wildest dreams at the at the point. But that
just to bring it just to add to the discussion on that. I think I think you're right. I think that um there's a lot of efficiency that could be had with space, both land space, footprint space, and use of the building interior space. I'm
no architect, but I imagine that's the case. If we were to do something new, you you're just you're renovating a building that isn't wasn't meant for the purpose. I don't think you have to be a architect to know that. >> I'm sorry. So, I'll look at being on that same with the committee with you. I do know that when they looked at the new
building, in fact, I just pulled up the plans. It really wasn't much different than what they we had. It was the same kind of >> Oh, they put the same program. >> I understand. But it's also basically the same almost the same footprint. >> Oh, was it really? >> Yeah, it was just 90° off basically. So,
it's just they made it 90°. So, that's what they did. >> So, anyway, I don't think the the question right now is more I feel like is that >> I don't remember that. I I don't the one thing we have to watch out for is that feature creep creep, right? Feature creep is going to make the buildings go up. We saw that when we started look at
the old town when we looked at doing the town hall in the last iteration of this committee. Soon as we put a 13t ceiling in in the in the basement, I think what probably added $5 million to the project. Okay. So, we got to watch for feature creep. And I do believe that
this town does very well for well does well for those who have youngans. Does well for those who are using the >> well it does be oh let me finish my point first. It does well for youngans. does well for folks who are who are able
to use the adult center, but for folks who don't have kids between the age of 20 and 55, 60, there's really not a lot going on here. We found that there is a need when we start to talk about
decommissioning that there's a need for the gym, there's a need for a space for the pantry. There's been a discussion about okay you know let's see we've always talked about community kitchen be neat I think there's a the question right now is that I have is the way TC
Pacio sits today is the gym the gym you want is the area for the food pantry the area you want is the officeite the area you want it's that's the question is more there of do
we keep the building as a group do we say Okay, we want to investigate keep in this building or do we look at it and say if anything do we was going to be done there we would look from scratch. You know, um, those are great questions, Dave. And one of the things that I keep
saying is that we have as a committee been looking at functions that are that need a home that are currently in TC Pacios and we have not resolved where that home's going to be because we really haven't been tasked with looking
at TCP. Now, now let me now it's my turn. It's my turn now. And and I think that that you know we need to to focus on this goes back to what I said at the very beginning Renee is that I didn't want to start talking about the condition of the building. We already
know the condition of the building is not very good. The question is those activities and functions that are town admin in TCP, where do we put them and how do we do that in the most cost-effective way so that we can sell a
town administrative project to the voters and the taxpayers in this town. I met with the the food pantry people and I met with the the teen club over the last couple of weeks in the last couple of months. And one of the things that I've said is you're community
activities. You're not town function activities. Our priority as a committee should be to look at those TAN admin functions that are in TCP and figure out the best way to support them with a project that can get approved by the
voters. I told both the food pantry and the and the uh and the teen club that their second they're a secondary priority. You know, I think that people in this room as well as I think people in the community would support those
community activities, but we as a committee haven't done a thorough thorough job of deciding what's the best place to put conadmin functions. Is it in TCP? Do we save a portion of TCP or
do we try to look for some other time space or are we going to throw up our hands and say now we got a bill now we got a bill from new we haven't answered those those uh those questions as a committee >> madam chair so this is a great segue if everybody wants to turn to the piece of
paper that's highlighted in yellow because we're talking about the charge so this is from the minutes back in 2022 the last time this committee got charged by I think 2022. 2022 or 2021. I didn't put the first page. >> Um the last time the committee got
charged. >> There's a lot of This is when the name changed from the TCP building design committee. But I want to draw your attention to the last two sentences of the first paragraph. The committee is free to analyze,
discuss, and investigate other town-owned buildings and properties in their recommendations as they deem necessary to fulfill this charge. The charge, as I read this, as has been charged, is comprehensive. It talks
about town offices, school uses, community space at the building andor land known at TC Pacios. But then it goes on to have that more expansive sentence to say free to analyze any and all buildings as part of the charge. So I think in terms of the charge and
looking at TCP, I think you had an assignment that was more specific than your charge in the past couple years, but your charge is is broad. >> Well, he hasn't chosen to look at TCP. >> This is on your website. >> This is from the previous select board.
This is on the the way that I found this is that it's on the building design website. I then looked at the charge as it was last done. I found the date and that's how I found these minutes. So, this is the charge of the select board as voted. >> It's it was amended with the meeting
that we had in July of 2025. >> I think you had an assignment, but you didn't change the charge. You were looking at something. You were asked to look at something. You were asked to look at Brook's house. you were asked to look at this project, but I don't think it changed the charge. >> Correct me if I'm wrong. I I get a
little frustrated here. We made a uh the committee, municipal building committee discussed it and we were basically saying this building in Ritter where it's going to hold this school and the town functions and at the
time the prior town manager and the prior superintendent said, "I want to have one location where all of it was." and we said, "Okay, and we're going to go do that." And that's what we brought to the town meeting, who was that last year.
>> And it didn't go through. Then we got a new town manager uh I mean in the process and new superintendent and they said oh by the way um because of what's happening at TCP we're going to shoehorn all the school stuff uh in into the
school area and we um it's not as a priority right now to have the town and the schools uh together. So we started talking about that and deciding what we're going to do. So to me, um, you
know, things have changed and, uh, I'd like to get, uh, an idea of what the current situation is and we can decide on that what we what what we can do that. To me, that would help. >> As far as the schools go, um, we'd like
to remain in the schools. It's working better. Um, we can control our own programs. Um, so I I think >> the >> it was the ACE program, right? >> The ACE program. Yeah. Office.
>> Yeah. So, right now we're in T we're at Turkey Hill. Um, it's not ideal, but nothing in the schools is ideal right now. Um, luckily there's some spare classrooms. Uh, so we are kind of the teachers. >> What? >> Cuz you don't have the teachers.
>> No. Yeah. So, and I do want to I think this discussion needs to be more anchored in the financial realities of the town. I think that it's lovely to sit here and dream about things, but I've spent three years on the school committee cutting the thought that we can plan something a better future.
It's nice we can do it here, but um I fully believe that the reason the last town hall plan failed in a large part was because we were cutting at the schools and while the schools are in the situation they are. I don't see projects as passing.
>> So, can I ask you a question? >> Yeah. >> So, say in a dream world we built a new building at TCP. Would the school have any interest in having some offices there? cuz at least you're on the same campus at that point. >> Um, as I last left it with the
superintendent, she seemed to think it was working better to be colllocated with a school >> and that system. Um, >> yeah, I talked to her. So I think going forward it just is it makes more sense to plan on having >> I just wanted to ask this in my opinion
the part of the reason the >> other building failed was because the school group the school people were not on board and we we all know that the school people can come out and vote in a block. >> So we need to make sure we include the schools in any of these conversations but at the same time the override is
completely irrelevant of what we're talking about borrowing. it it's very difficult for parents to b to pay any extra tax money when teachers are getting laid offically relevant but perception wise perception perception >> wise it's just >> part of this debt is coming off
>> so it would be replacing the debt would be a good way to do it >> so if I could just kind of bring it back to why I've asked the select board to to look at kind of making a decision here about TCP and it's really not so much about what happens next it's about what
happens Now, we are at a crossroads now. So, the crossroads that we are at is that we are starting to plan our FY28 and beyond capital plan. If we are going to stay in this building
regardless of what the end use is, take the end use off the table. I need Mr. Ruth preparing costs for a roof roof replacement to bring to town meeting next May. Whether that's going to be our entire FY28 capital plan paid in the
traditional way or take an inside borrowing track, I don't know. But that's what I'm going to task him to do between now and October. If we're not going to stay and reuse that building,
I'm not going to worry about that roof. And so it's really the decision what what was your back of the napkin on the or your your estimate on on the portion was it one point >> 1 1.3 1.4 for contingency. Okay. They
didn't have hard numbers for asbestous but limited on the roof. >> So an just in the ceiling and stuff. >> It's just caught. >> Okay. So in the the capital plan will either need to include in forget how it's funded $1.3 million roughly for a
roof. Town meeting will say what are you doing with it? and we're going to say we don't know, but we know we got to put this roof on and sh up this building or else the building is going to continue to go cuz we are actively raining. We are actively raining in the building. Um
when when there was the snow melt, we had a lot of water in the a lot of water in the building right over that section that would have been taken care of. But there's been a room in the back of that building, the old library, right, that has been closed off for years. Went in there a couple years ago. It was a day
after the rainstorm opened the door. It is still raining from the ceiling. So, we have to fit and that's on the decommission part. But what's this roof was built at the same time. There's similar conditions across. Chris went over those. So, we that is it's not
the so much what do we the the and it's difficult to bifurcate the conversation because you know that folks are going to say, well, what are we going to do with it? But unfortunately, that's where we're at, where we are. We need to either place a roof and then start figuring out what we're going to do with
this building or walk away. >> You you can you can figure out what you're going to use the building for. if the committee puts its its plan into place. You know, I think that you make a great point, Jennifer, is that we should
not be going to the town's voters and saying, "Give me a million three for a roof when we don't know what we're going to do with the building." We should figure out that end use now. And we would start with the the the 10 admin
functions that are currently in there because they need a home if you're going to close the building. Three months to figure that out. >> You're right. You know what's really sad? >> Three months to figure that out. >> You're absolutely correct. Now, let me finish. Let me finish. >> Admin is in TCP right now. >> Yeah. >> Um, you're doing storage. You're doing
>> file storage. That is the only town function of the entire building right now. >> And and you vote in that in that space. >> We're going to vote in that space for the special election. We will not vote in that for the next >> Okay. Well, that's because you made a decision that you're not going to use that building. But the question is
>> supported that decision. Hold on. How meeting supported that decision >> in that I took 120,000 plus out of the operating budget. >> I put it in a standalone article and I said we are no longer funding TCP with
operating funds. We're using free cash one-time funds because we know we're not going to operate this building the entire year. We're taking it out of the operating budget to free up capacity. So town meeting heard that. Chris spoke at town meeting for half an hour at least
on the subject and they supported the appropriation of one-time funds and ultimately through their vote of the budget supported removing those funds from the operating budget. >> Okay. So guys, what I'm understanding is the building chair, okay, building
reviews chair is that I'm I'm get we've one of the things we asked for was clarification on a charter and our charter now is saying here we can look at any town property, okay, town owned property, would the group agree that our >> I haven't heard that. I'm not convinced that that is the charter.
>> It says it right at the thing. If this is the if this is the charter that the town manager is giving us, >> this is this is multiple years old. >> If this is the charter that that is of record, this is the charter of record. This is what we're going to go with. >> We can ask the select board. They're right here. >> Yeah. Can we just re
>> this is always the path. And I think it was that the fact that we did want the price was so high for TC Pacios. We said, "Okay, let's look at the other buildings. Let's look at Ritter. Let's look at town hall." And we really the last year or two, we've been really putting our focus on the Ritter and Town Hall. >> Okay. So I look at that is that okay
this is a great first start. I'm asking do we can we do kind of I'm not asking for a vote just like a opinion on folks of whether they feel that the building as it stands today. >> TCP >> TCP
could work for anything. >> No. >> I say yes based on that. >> Okay. Hold on. I got a yes. I got a no. >> I love that building. I would want to save it but no. we don't have the money and it's >> well no don't I'm not caring about money I'm just asking if the building as as it
sits today where you know the footprint not the footprint of the building as it sits today of that one section two sections will it work well so Tony's comments are impactful and I will say back before my active involvement as a you know as an engaged citizen watching
I was at times convinced that TCP had to come down and through the process the next thing I hear is they rented classrooms to a local business. I was like, "Wait a minute. What what's up with that?" So, it was very confusing. So, I do hear stories where it's clear on one end it's clear that it has to
come down, but then there's other conversations where it's not so clear. So, I really would like to hear uh a more in-depth discussion. Maybe it's just one more meeting of the municipal building design committee of it with a visit at the you know, just redoing things. It doesn't matter what happened in the past. It's what important what we
do now and in the future. So I think we need to come to a decisive decision, you know, whether it's a majority or a unanimous on the municipal building design committee. I think that's critical. And when we speak about the wants and needs, I think we really have to focus on the needs. If you want to
try to sell something to this community, they are at the brink with taxes. And if you were going to sell anything, it would be to rehab this building to be where it should be today and rehab Ritter to be what it should be today. And then I think to Tony's point, maybe
at that point is when it makes sense to fix TC Pacios and sell it to the voter as we're going to continue to use it as we use it today. Work from a basic position of doing what we're doing today and having everything fixed up to
current standards and then justifying anything that goes beyond that. >> So while I don't disagree entirely, the second we do that, we trigger code requirements to bring the entire building up. Correct. >> Aside from the roof, anything we do in there, we're going to trigger all those requirements.
>> Well, so if we do the two bill, if we uh redo town hall as is and and Ritter as is, and then TC Pacios is simply too expensive, then that's that's an issue. >> So, I hear you. My question is the answer may be that we're not going to use these buildings. So, let's rehab the
whole thing and then look at another building. The answer at that point obviously is going to be don't use it. >> Okay. So what what you would have to come to from from the voter standpoint, you would have to come up with a plan of what you were going to do with TC Pass. I mean, I'm sorry, what you're going to do with town hall and what you're going to do with Ritter. If you build a new
building where you're suggesting, you have to have a decisive plan for either or both of those buildings off the tax rules. So, I'll say that that the that that has been the major thing with the building design committee is we felt that the the last thing we
want to do is have abandoned buildings that we're suggesting we abandoned building. >> It's simply not acceptable. >> I understand that. And right now, that's what we're doing right now is that we're looking at is TC Pacios is about to be an abandoned building. Okay. And we're trying to we're trying to look at the
best use the best I possible path forward with to avoid that to avoid that. So I'm sorry but if I can still right your thoughts on the building [sighs]
I don't know. Okay. Uh I I see both sides of it. I I think it's more it's a it's a harder conver I think it's a harder decision to make than just giving you a because it it relates to Tony part of Tony's point and it relates to part of what what
Chris is saying. It relates to what the actual uses are that are in our needs category which is another whole thing. I I agree with Tony. We we do need to figure out what that what those are. Um some of them are obvious but some of them are not. Um
and then but but on the other side of the equation, you know, how much money will it cost to to do this? I mean, code compliance is a huge thing. We had seismic loading we had to we had to do we bracing we had to do in that building. Um so I mean I guess if you were holding a gun to my head and asking
me for my opinion, um I'd probably say we should take it down. But I don't know that building a new building for the uses on that site would be the right thing because we have the same problem that we would have with these with the building we're sitting in and Ritter. So
I think um I can be convinced to tear the building down. That's that's not that's not the issue here. The issue is what space do we need? >> Yeah, I agree with you. >> You know, that's that's the issue. And we have not spent enough time as a
committee dealing with the space that TC Vasios and then there's this secondary thing you know related to community activities and that's it makes no sense to say the food pantry should be operating out of trailers where the old where the old primary school site was.
That's just doesn't make any sense. That doesn't make any sense to me and I'm going to guess it doesn't make any sense to most of the people who live in this community. >> That's not that's not going to be solved in 3 months. >> No. Can I ask one other question if this is out of line? >> Yeah. >> What's the You you you mentioned this
before, but what's the earliest on the uh on the uh >> on the on the uh >> MSBA >> on the MSBA decision process? >> Actually, I think Dave >> decision from the same. >> Yeah. Like like when will we when's the earliest we'll know what we're going to do?
>> Dave's more up to date. The next opportunity to apply for an accelerated rep repair program is January 2027 that opens up every two years >> for for repair program. We're going through the program, the one either way, we're going to evaluate needs first and
then >> I'm saying to you is that if you want the state to look at that building >> for for doing upgrades and repairs, you have to have it in by January of 2027 or you're waiting for January of 2029. It's
every two years. I don't you know >> what Dr. Fortuna told me yesterday was that she believes she's going to get direction from the school committee to send the application beginning in it opens January 2027. It closes April of
2027 and there will be a decision made by June of 2027. >> The application for what? >> For either repair or replacement. She says that that the package requires them to to provide >> to to yeah to provide all of the
information that they have including some of the studies that have already been done. >> So we might know in a year >> in June of 2027. That's what she said. >> I ideally if we're chosen >> maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just saying that would be the earliest >> ide that would be the most.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. This is this is a long process. I I asked her I asked her, Greg, I says, "Is there a bias to replace the building with a new building versus renovating?" And her experiences at Hudson was one
building got replaced and one building got renovated. She says, "So, they'll call it the way they think it needs to be called," which is good because in the state I formerly lived in, there was a bias against repairing old school buildings. >> Yeah. I would have thought that would have been the case. >> Yeah. she felt that that the system
would would drive an answer, you know, and she said that if the the committee comes or the agency comes back and says you're going to have to replace the building, she says that's a six-year cycle. She'll be 6 years before we're in a new school building. She says if we
you know if they say you can be it's going to be because we're going to have to get that funded and I don't typically in this town it doesn't always pass the first second if you had time if you were working in the ideal world and she says if you did a repair it might be quicker
you know and why that's really critical is that when we go to the voters with what we say is a package for town admit buildings we got to know what else is in the pipeline that the >> that's Of course. >> Agreed. Because if Turkey Hill is going
to be empty, >> that is certainly something to consider. And I feel like we have been trapped in this cycle of Turkey Hill buildings, TCP, and and trying to decide because everything is so circular and long, and
it's hard to to know what's coming, but we generally know. >> Yeah. >> And that makes it very difficult. which is one of the reasons why I think that we should change the name of this committee to a permanent building committee so we can look at all the buildings. You know, the the master plan
process said we got two priority projects, Turkey Hill and Town Admin functions. It didn't actually go into the specific buildings. It didn't say town admin function equals TCP red town hall, you know. And I think that >> let's try to stay focused on what >> Yeah. That's so that's that's a big
issue for us which is one of the reasons why I think that you know words mean something and if we say we're looking at all of them that'll convince the voters that we're looking at all of them and we're not going to leave a building behind empty. >> So is it my turn? >> Yeah, I'm I'm done.
>> Oh, I'm sorry. You all set? >> I am done. >> Okay. Um so if we can get town hall and Ritter admin functions in one building probably Ritter and I think some people don't need a permanent I think that
space is is to to be figured out but then for sure I think TCP goes down. Um, it's hard for me to to think of committing now to put $1.3 million on a roof on a building that we have no idea
if we're going to use. I just I just can't feel good about putting that money in. >> And that that again that we're only talking about the roof. We're not talking about the fact that the doors don't close. >> Does that repair the water damage from
the leak? Yeah. No, it's it's we're to even band-aid this thing to use it at all. We're in the millions. >> I mean, I did the estimate for the roof just over the food pantry. Well, the problem is you can't do just the food pantry after the boiler room cuz the pipes are going to freeze. And then at that point, well, you need a bathroom to
operate a food pantry. So, now you go all the way down the hall, which includes the gym. So, now we're at $530,000 just for the roof. If we were trying to save that one function, it doesn't address any of the other problems. >> Yeah. Everything else on this list, >> everything everything on that list is a
real problem that at any moment could rear its head and say, "Guess what? Now you have to spend this money." And we still don't have a plan. So, I agree with Tony 100%. We need to understand all of the needs of the town, school included, because if we go and do this without the school, well, the school needs a new school. It's not going to
happen. We need to all work together, come up with a solution for all of the buildings. And I agree, we need to get there. I just I would love to take anyone that wants to walk through a TCP and see how bad it actually is. Go to the back door and pull a door handle. It might rip off.
>> Is it a health risk to go in there? >> Depends on where you are. If you if you have asthma, I'm not going to take you on a tour. >> The rooms where the school used to be. >> Yeah, the one that was carpeted there. The >> one we can't pull up the carpet because it was encapsulating the asbestous room.
>> No, that's the library. If if I may for the purposes of discussion I think it is worth clarifying I I am not doubting the importance of the food pantry within our community. It is incredibly important within our
community. I think as a municipal government we should be doing what we are able to support them 100%. However, the food pantry is not a function of municipal government.
We are under no obligation nor should we be to provide them space. It doesn't mean we shouldn't be thoughtful about it. But we get in this locked in this idea of but what about the food pantry? There are many options for the food pantry. I
can tell you I mean are is the trail option ideal? No. But is it that awful when I've been in those meetings hearing about the numbers? It isn't. And do we have some potential long-term solutions
on the table possibly with some uh private public partnerships to provide better long-term options? Yes, we do. Those will take a little bit of time to manifest, but we are not under obligation to sit here and discuss, but
what about the food pantry? And I I as awful as it sounds, with budget being what it is, um that isn't necessarily something we should be pouring money into directly.
Again, there's other ways to tackle that beast. I'm not saying we shouldn't do food pantry. Those who want to take me off topic on that one, it's important. There's other ways to handle Okay.
Um, to me it's a no-brainer. You have to tear it down. >> Mhm. >> I would say absent a since we do not have a compelling immediate reason to keep it, the only fiscally prudent
decision is to tear it down. If if we had a reason to keep it, sure. We don't have an immediate need that is going to meet well. We don't have a clear-cut plan. We'd be
pouring money on a maybe and we'd be losing long-term flexibility. Flexibility is worth a certain dollar value. You don't want to overspend on flexibility, but it's worth a certain dollar value to
be able to better use our town land. We're not going to get more of it. Therefore, we need to be thoughtful with what we have. I mean, we're not going to get more nice town center land. >> So, if we're voting still, I obviously vote we should tear it down.
>> Oh, I thought you going the other way. [laughter] >> I was just messing with all the psych. >> So, I'm back. Would would there be instead of a roof article, would there
be um momentum for putting a demolition article [clears throat] cuz that's what people really hate is when the they just sit there walking by the rotting building for decades, you know, that's really bad.
>> That was exactly why my reason to ask my reason to ask is I'm I'm trying to have that one thing avoided. of having a building. >> And Mr. Blad, I just want to make sure your your comments are on record, too. Your direction. >> Well, I I thought I meant, but anyway, I I'm I would vote I would my direction is
to start is to the van land is more valuable than the building and I would look as that building as it stands today. I don't look at it as something I'd be proud of to call town hall. It wouldn't be something I call proud of to call community center. I'd like to see
if if the land if something is going to be developed, I'd like to see it start from scratch. >> To answer your question, um well, if we decide we're going to keep the building, we're definitely going to have an article on this Maytown meeting. If we don't decide to keep the building, Chris
is going to be charged with coming up with those cost estimates on demo. That demo, I would imagine, would wrap up the asbestous remediation first and then the full demo, right? So, we know it's going to be um over a million. um but how far
over? And so that number will um give us the direction on whether or not that would come at this town meeting or a future town meeting because it's going to >> trigger kind of borrowing paths or other paths. But he'll absolutely be putting
together those figures in one direction or another. Whether it's this town meeting or not, I don't know. The may >> Mr. Ruth, may I suggest >> Mr. Ruth, may I suggest a reviving of the uh town bonfire?
>> I would love to. The suggestion was made for fireworks there just in case. >> I was told that we need to stop suggesting that because if that building does go up, we're all suspects [laughter] >> because of how often >> that suggestion is made. Yeah. I tried
to see if we could launch fireworks from there. >> Yeah. I can't do it yet. [laughter] obey your purse. >> Would that be the most fun assignment decommissioning as kindling? Greg, you you say we should call the question. I
completely agree with that. We should we should as a committee at the earliest possible time make a determination that we don't want any of TCP, we want some of TCP. We should do that
at the earliest possible time. And that's and that is what I have been saying from the get-go. And with regards to the food pantry and the teen club, if the building gets closed because there's no heat come one October, then the
community needs to know that the time pantry, the food pantry will be out of business at least temporarily. I suspect, I don't want to speak for them, but I do know that the teen club will not have a gym to use based on conversations I've had with them. and
they're here tonight and we can ask them that question. >> Oh, they were >> we still are. >> Yeah, and we we are working on other plans. >> Well, you know that I heard that too and what I heard from Jeremy Martin and Michelle was that there won't be a
temporary facility for this winter, you know. So, once again, let's just be honest with the voters and the people that live in this town. [clears throat] I'm not saying that the food pantry deserves support as a town function. They don't. And and I have been consistent with that in every memo that
I've sent to every town manager since I've lived here is to say, "How is it that this nonprofit is getting such a free ride? You ought to call the question and find out if the voters want to give them a free ride." Now, they the voters may say no, and I'm okay with
that, but we ought to at least have that conversation. And I think once again, we need to make a decision. This Renee, this is why I made my comment at the very beginning. We have spent all of our time talking about how bad that building is. I know how bad that building is. I've been in that building. I knew
exactly what was going to happen with those boilers. You know, they're they're too big. They can't run. But is there a way that we can figure out to make that building work that's cost effective that the voters will support. And if we can't make that case, then we are not going to
get a new building. We're not going to get a new renovated Ritter. and we're not going to get a new renovated town hall. We've been down this path before. And I don't think I understand your point there. I'm going to be very specific because I I think I heard you
say, Tony, and correct me if I'm wrong, that if we can't justify a current use for TCP, we also won't be able to convince the public of the need for renovating Ritter or Town Hall or anything else. Did I understand? No, what I'm saying is if we
if we don't make our case on TCP one way or the other, >> then it's then it's an unanswered question in the eyes of the voters. >> Understood. >> You know, see, that's why that's why the I think the uh >> the big project failed. One of the one
of the the big obstacles was this is how we could do a new town hall. But then there was no plan for what was going to happen with the buildings that you were left behind. That's what we've got to do. That's the gap that we have to fill here or we're not going to be successful.
>> So, >> sorry Nick, >> just that's why we came to the select board to expand the charge to ask for the for the charge to get expanded because we we kind of felt that our hands were we were a little handcuffed
by the charge and that we weren't able to give it a full belt and suspenders approach. But to Tony's point, probably the time is [laughter] we probably passed the time for really trying to, you know, make sure we have a good plan. I thought and that's it. I
told you I was so earlier things. I I I understand we have not come up with a solid square footage for what we what what is the needs of town. But I felt that we have we are close in a plan and for a needs
thing I think office-wise we're okay as far as um meeting p meeting rooms and other things which add square footage that's really where the rest of the discussion had. I feel like that we've what we got from the talent departments
gave us a good feeling for whether the space today or or how much more space that each one would need. So I do feel that we're quote and I apologize for the group that we haven't ever came up with a square foot number but I felt like one
of the things that we struggling is that we all have it in our head that that it costs money for square footage. So the idea of common areas becomes the toughest and the more you add in the
common areas obviously the more you're adding to the cost. So that's why it was really the the second half of the discussion we would that at least I as a chair was trying to get to was how many of the common areas could be shared to minimize that number. Okay? Because you
know the smaller the square footage the lower the cost. The more likely you are to use what you have the lower the cost. Right? So coming up I feel as a group we can come up with a number for the square footage
for offices but then it's a matter of once again getting that number for common spaces for common you know how many four to six people conference rooms you need how many 8 to 12 pe 10 to 12 8 to 12 people
how many bigger than that do you need that's really where the blow in square footage would come in any municipal building What I'm asking right, you know, what I feel we need to do right now is that we need to help the voters and help this town and decide whether or
not we that there's sentiment to keep a building and try to fit sorry, fit stuff in it or do we is that the best use of our dollars and cents? Once again, we're going to take a build,
you know, is do we take a building and and say, "Okay, we got this many square feet. Let's use it." And you know, we all have seen what happens there, right? Folks think they need a,000t office. Why? Because they got a,000 foot office
today type of thing. So that's what I'm asking is right now is I look at it as the building today. I I don't not the land the building today. Is it worth renov is it the way we want to go as far
as a renovation of that thing? >> How do we answer that question? >> What's that? >> I said how do we answer that question? >> Didn't we all just >> What's our next step? >> Well, do we do we go ahead? >> Great additional segue point. So, there
is a special town election on August the 8th. Mhm. >> The select board is looking to schedule a tour after the full board is seated. So there I I know you said at first that you hadn't had a tour in a while. Um I'm
not sure if that's the case. Um but if there's other folks that haven't really gone through to look at all the different, you know, people have been in the administration offices, but you might not have been in the boiler room, right? So, we're looking to schedule a tour probably the week of August 10th or the week thereafter
>> for [laughter] the public for >> No. Okay. >> For this. >> No, I am not. I do think I think it was effective when the school street school came down that uh you did >> we did offer tours and people had to
sign a waiver and we wear wear the bunny suits >> and that in of itself not a lot of people went went to it but the fact that you can't enter this building without wearing the suit and you have to sign the waiver because of concerns about your health that and then people took pictures and shared their experiences I
think that did a lot to finally getting that building to come down. >> Are you talking TCP only tour? Okay. Cuz select board wants to >> Yeah. to do everything. But I think for we'll be there for 6 hours. So you know if we do all the buildings in one comprehensive, >> but at least for this group
seems like a lot of discussion has been had seem like you want a little bit more information before people have further discussion. And I think that that might be the appropriate next step piece of information. I know some folks have indicated that they're not interested in looking at the buildings. So, if if
they're not, that's fine. But I think it's informative because the decline that has been experienced even just since the school has vacated is noticeable. It doesn't take long for a building that's not being used daily to start to really decline. >> Y you never leave a building vacant.
>> Right. Right. >> Um I think that's great, but I think it ought to be mandatory for the building committee to to go through it. And once again, um, you know, we're focusing once our conversation about TCP, but every
potential capital debt excluded project has has um the ability to influence voters as to whether they will support anything with regards to a new town admin building, a new Turkey Hill. And I think that that that the it's not too
late to begin looking at a plan and prioritizing all of the town's debt excluded projects. You know, Tom Alonzo told me that that I was complaining to him about having been on this committee for 5 years and seeing nothing but nothing nothing happen, you know, and I don't like being on committees for 5
years and nothing happened. But he goes, "Well, Tony," he says, 'You know, it went 35 years in Lunenburgg from when the Turkey Hill was built before the next debt uh excluded project got done. And I thought, "Oh my god, 35 years." And he says that one of the ways that
that it got done was because they had a time manager. He put together one big mega project, new new public safety, improvements, department of public works, new primary school, a new high school. And of course, the voters voted that, you know, of course they would. I
mean, it was too big of a nut to crack and far too much taxes to pay one time. But then that laid out a plan, you know, and then we knocked then the town has knocked them off. And I think that that's one of the things that that I hope would come out of this discussion
today. We've been so fixated on TCP, but there are other issues. Like for example, I would love to see us do something to Marshall Park, you know, and there are a lot of people in this community would like to see something happen to Marshall Park, but but it's not if unless we put it into a priority list.
>> And there's no disagreement there. The issue is we have to make some pretty immediate decisions that we don't have the luxury to have the level of conversations, full several years of planning that would be required to
really do in short order. a comprehensive full soup to nuts capital plan and phase. You're going to need outside money for that. So what does that mean? We're back to town meeting going for a feas we're not do. So we're going to have to do that internally.
We're going to have to keep chipping away. But right now >> not right now today, but in the very near future we just need to make the decision around that roof. And >> I I think no decision is a decision.
But I >> not making a decision >> on the TCP roof. You've made your decision, >> right? I mean, we're just out of time. We're out of runway. >> Yeah. >> I don't think I don't think you could like We went through this exercise with
the master plan steering committee and surprisingly, you know, I looked at all the buildings and we had a discussion about this. I reviewed all the list of buildings. Chris added some buildings I was unaware of and I think that we know which buildings are going to be candidates for
debt excluded projects and you had predicted and I completely agree with this Jennifer that the master plan has supposedly a life of 10 years and you said the town will probably get two debt excluded projects in that 10-year time frame and the and the committee you know
the master plan steering committee vetted that that issue against these other projects and I think that you know we know which two are most likely are going to get supported by the town, but you can't leave those other projects off because time is marching on for public
safety, for the Department of Public Works, for the teen club, you know, those things are all we're going to burn up another 35 years, you know, without a plan this time. So, we need to do that. I mean, I think that's really to to your point earlier that I do do agree that
the charge of this committee or the name or whatever you want to call it or what this town has is a is a committee to look at all buildings >> whether you know and it and I even look at it is that personally I look at it as I you know I know the schools own we've
had the discussion the schools own their own building however we that needs to be part of it's still a town building at the end so looking at things and coming up with an idea So, I understand all that. However, I'm looking at it right now is the idea is is is any money we
throw into that building right now, you know? So, it's if you look at it as if I just say, okay, I'm just going to do a million dollars to get that one section, the gym, the toilets, the boil, the uh
food pantry, and the boiler all set. I'm going to need a new heat system. I'm going to need this. I'm going to need that. Is putting a million dollars into that one part of the building worth it? And it's going to be a lot
more than a million. So, I say to put a million and a half, $2 million into that one section of the building. Is that the way we want to go or do we look at as towards the future? >> So, so can I just throw something onto that? There is a 0% chance the TCP
building is functioning this winter. There is not enough time to vote on money. There's not enough time to get stuff out to bid. There is not enough time to make the repairs to make that building habitable for this winter. >> I think we've heard a lot of consensus on the municipal building design committee too that the TC Pasios doesn't
make sense. We've even talked previously in previous meetings that there was no interest in using the Brooks House either. I think a lot of our focus has been on the Ritter and Town Hall. And I think one of our most recent meetings, we were we're concerned about architects and and funding to to get some
architecture work. And I think timing that and we wanted to work with the select board to try to figure out when that would make sense to try to get funding for an architect to actually work on designs. >> Do we have money for that? >> No, >> we don't have money for that. Oh,
so there's different types of money. We're always going to have money available. Well, t I shouldn't say always. [laughter] Typically, there's money available for one-time things. This is how we fund a project like that. It's that's what's
funded with one-time funds. That's what's funded with capital, you know, as part of the capital plan with free cash or prior year capital or the like. That that wouldn't affect anybody's operating budget. It shouldn't affect anybody. It won't affect it will not affect people's operating budget. It's not you're not
borrowing from one one pocket. >> It's more that at this point how many architecture and studies have we thrown at this? >> I don't think that that it was a study, right? It was >> the design. >> No, I think at at a point where if we're going to be redesigning the office space
at Ritter, you we we as a committee, we discussed that we're probably not going to be able to do a back of the napkin type estimate of what that renovation would cost. I think it's going to have to wait a few years though. I just We've thrown I think it's a million dollars now at architecture studies and the TC
when we did TCP the renovation and we did TCP the new build and then we did the failed Ritter and and this redesign. We just keep putting money into it. >> We spent $180,000 on Taylor and Burns. How much did you spend? >> Was it?
>> Yeah. >> The Giorgio but was like 300. But if you need it in order to get there, the the question is going to be no matter what we come up with. >> If it's a $10 million build, is it going to get voted in? >> No. >> And if it is, well, we don't know that.
But if that's that's the question, I think it's probably a select board question of whether it it is the right time to do that. If if they come back and said there's no way we're going to be able to do this, this is not the right time, then okay, then we don't >> do anything. or maybe we do smaller
projects that we might be able to get through either through uh free cash or or some other or some reserves or some stuff that Dave had brought up some free money. >> I agree. I think >> until we get to the point that we can do it because for that direction from the select board, I also think that we heard
from the voters and that's why the municipal building design committee has gone to a a smaller project. >> Right. I think it's I I brought up the same point last night at planning board when discussing the municipal building design committee and some broad thoughts
and the the question came up within the board of but what does the public have an appetite for? One thing we need to keep in mind are the multiple levels of budget cycle. When we talk about budget cycles, we
typically mean the annual, you know, there's a very normal annual budgeting process and that is the budget cycle. There's a broader multi-year trend in budgeting we also need to be aware of.
You cannot predict it reliably, but you have to know that it shifts. And you have to know that it shifts on a comp regardless of how we're planning. And what I mean by that is any project we
consider needs time to be thought out to be brought to fruition. During that time, the state's funding formulas for us can change substantially. Um federal funding can change
substantially. grant availability and everything else can change substantially. I mean both for the better and for the worse. So when we talk about what does the town have the fiscal appetite for
we need to understand that we need to be aware of costs 100%. But we can't look at it and say, "But this was just defeated." Because anything we engage in is going to take us at least a couple years to put
together, do well, and get before the voters. And in that time, we're going to be looking at different state funding, different federal funding, other options. My opinion there, I think anything we design needs to be thoughtful. It needs to be able to be
shelved for a little bit if need be. Just because we do all the work and we're done like if we're done by May 2028 and we have a great plan, that doesn't mean we're presenting it at the very next town meeting. I think we have
to be thoughtful that we've got this and we have to also take into account and maybe spend a little bit more and it shouldn't be more than a little bit more to make sure that those prices we have can take into account future costs.
so that once we have a plan, it can be presented at the right time. I think it's also imperative, um Tony's gotten to this, I've heard other people get to it in different ways. You need a holistic communication
process. Town government has suffered and municipal I mean town government in terms of sitting here in terms of the schools in terms of everything has suffered because we're not that great at communicating a whole plan to the
voters. I think that's also because we haven't been great about putting together a comprehensive broad plan that takes everything into account. Um but I think we've been worse about communicating it than we've been about doing it. We need to have the be ready
for the right moment. Understand that will come. Not if, but when. And then we need to be ready to have a very effective communication schedule to get it in front of everyone so that we don't have these surprises and we don't feel
like we're robbing Peter to pay Paul or something else. But we but we can't do that in a short period of time. We have to start now. So when the opportunity presents, we can strike when the iron is hot. >> I have a question for you, Chris. Um,
this document, it says uh January 30th, 2026. Is this when you prepared this letter? >> Yeah. The I the what I wrote off of was a summary I typed up for myself for uh >> Okay. So on on the second page here, it says current use. Is this still an
accurate list of current use? >> No. The only people in there currently is the food pantry and the file storage space. That's it. So >> the gym use is done. Pickle pick. >> No pickle ball. >> Um so what about um
Okay. So in January you said three classrooms are being used for town file storage. >> That's correct. >> Uh office space is used for town election storage >> and that we're already moving out of where you moving it to >> a trailer. Okay. Um, the Lunberg Community Food
Pantry, we talked about that. Public access, they're in Fitsburg now, right? >> No, they were in the senior center. >> They're in the senior center. >> Okay. Um, the Shapiro school, they're not renting any classrooms, correct? >> Nope. And to be fair, the reason they were in there, their rent was the only thing that kept us afloat for the last
fiscal year. >> Okay. Um, and then it says gym space is rented out by several organizations. That's closed. >> That's closed. Um, so really what we're looking at is storage for town files, storage for
election, >> no more elections. >> Well, but it's going somewhere. >> It it will not be at TCP. >> It's but it's Yeah, it's going somewhere. And what's that costing us? And what's the permanent solution to that? Those are the questions that the committee needs to answer. The permanent
solution to the storage is the trailer. The trailer is the permanent solution for the storage. >> How much does that cost a ton? And where's the trailer? >> The trailer is a mobile trailer that we've purchased. >> It's currently part of DBW. >> So, it's can be hooked up to a hitch and transported to the school when it's time
to vote. >> So, the schools are now the place to vote. >> Yes. We actually amended the calendar um several months ago in anticipation, right, of this uh because originally we used to historically have voting day off
of school uh enabled us to share like professional development costs with other districts, but the proposed calendar for this year actually had school on that date because we got a lot of questions about why it was off. Um but then we did amend the school
calendar to make that a day off in anticipation of you needing the schools for voting. >> And so the voting um for the primary and for the special is taking place at TCP and the town clerk has the voting equipment is going into the trailer. Um
the so the to be clear I just want to I know that this came up at a previous meeting and I want to clear that up for for security purposes. the town uh voting machines are really shells. We're storing those shells. The computers are stored outside of the trailer under
double lock in a municipal building. Uh so the actual tabulators are not stored, but it's just the voting uh >> there's the booths >> the booths and the bins >> the collection bins that hold uh they're just plastic bins. Um so she's already working with the state
on moving the election um permanently to to the schools >> which traditionally that's how we had it. That's Yeah. I mean it we voted at TCP >> growing up >> because there was a school, right? >> And that's how most >> that's how most municipalities
>> just to be clear. If we put a roof on it, a $1.3 million roof, none of those things are going back into that building cuz it wouldn't be safe for those. Right. So >> to be honest, it probably wasn't for years. the the town as far as security went for most the buildings for years
was Home Depot keys that anybody could cut. Strangely enough, the most secure building in town was the library. Why? I can't answer that, but it's part of the reason we did the whole locks project is because I couldn't tell you who had access to what buildings. >> Do you want your keys back? >> No, they're not going to do anything
pretty [laughter] soon. >> Get protected DVDs. >> Yeah. Okay. >> So, Jen, can you reiterate where the next two elections are just so anyone watching knows and doesn't >> TCP for August 8th and the September primary? >> Okay. And then the November
>> the November is likely to be moved. What we do need the formal permission from the state which but she's working on that. >> Okay. So I'm getting full circle here to save a section of TC Pacios for the for future
nothing would hap you know the next time chance to vote or appropriate funds we looking at March >> the earliest we could do it would be the September 3rd special the Next, not
going to happen. Next we could do it would be the November special. Unlikely to happen because it doesn't go through the typical capital planning process. We are so unless there was an emergency and we were putting on a roof in an emergency situation, it would go before the capital capital planning committee
and would be either included or not included as part of the capital plan for consideration at the Mattown meeting in 2027, >> which is where it belongs. It's part of the what's most important to the town. Do we need this? Do we need that? The
capital committee does that. That's their function. So, it's it makes sense. >> All right. And and the proposal I would like to see is if that was happening at that point, we would have to be looking at not just the roof, but other functions to be able to have a function
for that building, right? you know, just because you can't just save it as just, you know, >> so so I think that I don't think so because you you are now at a major borrowing with no plan. And so this this is just quite literally a
band-aid of a roof to buy time to make decisions around the I I keep hearing us come back to TCP. I'm I it's entirely possible I misunderstood
the discussion we just had and I recognize that. But my understanding we was we went around the table. It wasn't a vote. I understand that. But I heard a couple instances I think of maybe
there we could justify it putting a roof on and a whole bunch of its time has come. Unfortunately, if that's the sentiment in the room, why do we keep coming back to talking about what it would take to put the roof on? I
>> I guess I'm sorry. So my my the actually you're you're absolutely right. I'm looking at it as I'm looking to have a consensus of which of what am I bringing forward? Am I bringing forward a save as
a band-aid or am I bringing forward the proposal of a demo and we have a beautiful piece of land and and that's the whole thing. Go ahead. >> I think we should go right back to the charge >> and it's pretty much three parts. The
first part is the Lunberg M blah blah blah blah blah will continue to work with any brought my glasses in. [laughter] Yeah, those won't work either. uh with any contracted architectural engineering
firms as they be as they become available to review space needs for town offices, school uses and community space at the building andor land known as TC Pasios. Check people, we've already done that. >> Yes, >> I think that that's behind us in part by
what we just said tonight, but also the other seven years that we've we've went to this. Now, I think we're on the additionally part where it says the committee will work to prioritize, and this gets to Tony's point, prioritize and/or rank the existing space usage
requests and explore a variety of design permutations at different estimated budgeters that would meet the needs of the town according to those priorities. I I think that's where we are. We need to we need to identify the uses. I think the town function uses are pretty easy.
I think it's the other ones that we're talking about that are hard. the teen center, the [clears throat] pack, um um food communities based food pantries of the world. Those are and then the the the the third part is um that the
committee is free to analyze and discuss investigate other town owned buildings and properties and their recommendations blah blah blah and on and on and on which gets to the master plan of how we're going to get. So, it's like look at TCP,
assess the needs, and master plan it. And I think we're on I think we need to go back. We've done all of this, but I think we need to go back to step two. That's that's where I think we're at. I think we're halfway through it, but I think we need to >> which would be >> additional committee >> prioritize or rank existing space usage
requests, explore a variety of design permutations. We're right in that process. We need to finish that and then we need to we need to come up with a master plan. So, it occurs to me that it says um a variety of design permutations. We keep getting stuck into which one to go in. >> Well, we to be fair though
>> at some point maybe we bring two or three options to town meeting and ask >> triple your design money. >> We don't necessarily even have to design. >> We can just say
>> conceptual things. cons what do we what does the town want because it's going to have to pass a vote at town meeting anyways. So to involve the community at large at that point >> it says a variety of design permutations
um >> and different >> which we which we've done we've done a good job in that actually I you know we probably need to do more a few more but I'm just you know >> but I'm wondering if we bring op bring options to a town meeting and say which
direction >> I think >> is the town meeting body feeling >> I think getting options before the town in my opinion is almost always a great idea. However, town meeting is not the
place for that and the town meeting is a formal convening of a legislative body with a lot to do and not a lot of time to do it. Um there but I think we should we have other ways of doing it with MBTA
communities. We had formal info sessions. We had informal chats all the time. people came to planning board and asked about it. There's other ways to get options out there in the community that are more effective than presenting
at town meeting. So, I I agree. I think we do it in a slightly different venue. And if we want to start having public info sessions, I am double 100% on board with that and I'm happy to help spearhead that kind of thing cuz that is
my particular public jam. I think I said town meeting because it's the largest output and it's a captive audience. Um, and there are committee reports at town meeting. Um, it wouldn't be a long thing, but I think info sessions would
work as well. Um, because I'm I'm struck by the concept of design permutations and getting more public feedback instead of getting stuck in this feedback loop of just stuff. >> I I I I agree with you. So that that
gets us back to the same thing of just having to come up with a square footage number >> a an idea on just just plain out square footage number and that's what I guess at the next charter would be what I'm understanding from this committee is
let's concentrating on what square footage we would like to propose working with the town manager working with the town uh departments to make sure we have a good solid square footage number. How that square footage is laid out, that's
really not the issue today. The issue is just >> I think we also need to dig in very deep to the concept of needs versus wants and there can be very high priority wants >> but when it comes to needs versus wants, which I think may have affected some
previous iterations of the plan is because that's a very difficult thing to do and it's very difficult to question the town employees and say, "Are you sure you need this? um be because we also have to trust that what they're telling us is accurate. But we we still need to we need to dig in.
>> I agree with I agree with diving deeper to make sure. But I thought our most recent questionnaire did an extremely good job of soliciting some very thoughtful, candid, and conservative feedback from the town employees on that
front. >> Very giving with the information. Yeah. >> Yeah. And and I thought that they cuz I know I heard multiple of us in those meetings say, "Wow, really thought they were going to say they were going to ask
for more and say they needed more and they didn't." So I I think I mean there's always room to look, but I think we've done a very good job on that front as a committee and credit to all of us on that >> and the town employees for >> when's when are we going to do that?
>> That was work for them. When are we going to do the tour PCP? >> So, we were saying the week of either August 10th or the week after. >> All right. Uh, the week after. I cannot >> You cannot. So, it has to be the week of August 10th. >> And that week I can only It's either 10,
11, or 12th. >> And during during the day. >> Yeah, cuz we can't headlights. Come on. >> Let's throw more more insurance risk in. >> Well, I'll sit here without phones. So just just a real quick question to
get to get to the point about the polling the audience. Didn't we do something with the like that in a non-binding fashion >> like a straw pole >> for the for for the school for what to do with school street?
>> Mr. Alonzo, do you do you remember? >> Didn't we do like a non-binding pull the audience town meeting type of activity for alternatives that we had raised for the disposition of school street? >> Was it at town meeting or how it Okay, it was
>> at the election. >> They did it offline. They like >> No, >> they just they just filled some out and dropped it in a box. It's It wasn't like a presentation. >> I think it was an actual question. >> Was it an actual question? a town meeting. >> They did recently the library for the old gas station they had.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I went to >> but it wasn't a town. It wasn't a town meeting. I was specifically advertised. You want to go? You want to see? >> I mean, Laura was mentioning town meeting and that I think the it came into my mind. I thought we had done something like that at uh for school
street. But anyway, just a thought. You know, if we don't look at a broader plan sooner rather than later, we got another building that's left behind and that's the Brooks House. And the longer we go with the Brooks House, the worse the story about
condition will be. And I think that, you know, there's been a fairly significant effort that was placed by the APDC and um and others that says the Brooks Brooks House, there's no use for the Brooks House, you know, and I I don't
want to talk about that tonight other than to say we need a we need a broader plan. you know, the this committee needs to look at all of the things, all of the pieces, and I don't think it's an insurmountable
task based on what the town's inventory is for buildings and which ones are potentially candidates for debt excluded uh financing sometime in the future. I don't think that requires a planner, some a contract planner to do because
this town has a really bad record with hiring contract planners. But I think it's something that we could do as a committee, Renee. And I think that it's not it's not too late to say, "Let's start that holistic planning process." >> I agree. I want to clarify that I was talking about you'd need somebody if
you're trying to do it on a contracted timeline. If you're trying to do it very on short order to come up with that plan in a couple months, >> I think you could because there's not that many buildings. I mean, >> who's doing your cost estimating for you? >> You you could use uh >> the committee is going to do all your cost estimating. We could do
>> I'm not talking about doing cost us. I'm talking about saying what's the need like like I don't know what I don't know what to like when we when we did the master planning process we I called people and I said what do you think you're going to need and some
said I don't know and some said you know I think we would need this and I think that that's that's that work can can take place and you can come up with a prioritization list that you could test that you could test in a public
environment The reality of a prioritization list in municipal government is it needs to be coupled with that funding estimation because a pri my top priority could be a $50 million building and we might not have debt capacity or borrowing capacity for
that, right? Like so it it cannot be disjointed from from the estimates. >> The only $50 million project you have lying is the school. >> That's correct. >> But there's only so much borrowing capacity. >> Yes, >> there's only so much borrowing capacity. So, we can't have we can't have a $50
million borrowing and a $5 million borrowing and >> let's not let's not do anything. >> No, but but hold on because I think that that is important because in looking at the needs, you have to be looking at the costs together. >> I don't I don't debate that. But you got to first say what do you want and then
you price in what you want to see what >> right? And so what I'm suggesting is this committee can't do that in several months. >> I think it could. >> Okay. And the alternative is not good.
The alternative is you say to the voters, well, we don't have a plan. >> So, if if I may, I'm going to quote uh [clears throat] my favorite fire chief here. I think we're in analysis paralysis. How much money do we want to waste on TCP till we make a decision? That's the question we're asking.
>> None. >> I don't want to waste any money. I think I think it's pretty clear that majority of people here don't want to waste any money and so I I don't know where it goes from there. But there's a couple people here that still want to fight it, but I think the majority are saying tear
it down. >> Tom, I don't want to fight anything. What I want to do is that I want to do I want to do an analysis. You know, like let me just let me just give you an example. >> We've been talking about this for a long time. Everybody agrees. So you can we
can you can talk about it more. I mean, it's free time, but >> in the in the Lunberg Municipal Building Design Committee, we were supposed to look at the Brooks house, and you know what we heard was there's no parking. No parking. No parking. [clears throat] The fact of the matter is that there was parking. You know, so the facts were on
my side to say we should be doing something with TC or with the Brooks House. And I and I'm not here just to be an antagonist. What I'm what I'm trying to do is to say, let's do a plan. Let's look at things, you know, in in in a
totality, you know, like let's look at all of the buildings we have. We know which buildings are going to come up on the list first. It's going to be Turkey Hill. We know how expensive that's going to be. So, I'm not trying I'm not trying to I'm not trying to be an antagonistic person here. What I'm trying to do is to
say, let's have a plan. And I I haven't heard any embracement of let's have a plan. >> I actually think you're wrong. They they'd have to disagree. They think the sentiment is to have a plan, but we wanted to know what we were planning
about more than anything else. And you know, to me, the Brooks House, I felt like a decision by this committee was made that the the idea was is that we didn't feel that any town functions could go into the Brooks House. Therefore, we're passing it back and
saying we we as the building design committee to the board of select select board we find no function for the Brooks house for the town do with it as you wish type of thing and bring it to whatever you would like but that's still
that's the charter was for us to look at what could we possibly put in the Brooks house we talked to everybody we could nobody stood up and said oh I'd love to have that as my office or I'd love to use that space. So therefore, no town
functions go in there. I think the decision that Brooks House has made. >> What's What is the decision? >> The decision to tear it down. >> No, the decision is is that we're telling the board of the select board that >> this program >> that we have we that we see no town
functions going into the Brooks House to for now, it's up to you guys to decide what you're going to do with it. It's not up to the building design committee to decide to say, "Oh, you should sell it. You should make a house. you should do this, you should do that or anything that that's not us. Our thing is to say this is the best use for that building
and the and the best use for that building is not as town functions is not as any kind of community function. It's not as any any of those things. The best use is to do something else with it. And whether you want to give it away, whether you
want to >> burn it down, tear it down or do or or sell or sell it, that's your choice. It's not, but we don't as the building design committee don't see a purpose in putting dollars in there because there's no town functions going in there.
>> Is am I accurate? >> I would agree with the chair. Uh I would also say that the select board has made it a goal to address the Brooks House as well in the next few months and year. >> We should probably, you know, like bring that to a official vote and and really deliberate at at an upcoming meeting so
that they can have some minutes of that. Well, I I have a quarum. So, we just don't have an agenda. I'm not [laughter] we don't have it on right now. At no point actually >> No, I think we've talked around the point, but we should we should definitively put on the agenda. Let's
say there, you know, have some >> like we should resolve we should we should have a resolution >> actually on there. We as the municipal design building want to either move or not move or >> move that we think there's a municipal
purpose for a building or that we have evaluated it at length and discussed it for a few hours over and over and that we have not found a municipal use for those buildings. Um but I I I think Greg
is very right in that we have not actually voted on this. But to to Tony's point, we should do that after a discussion about the uses. >> Okay? >> Because we we really do need to not put the crack before the horse. >> So, >> we really do need to identify what the
actual program is. We know it's municipal town offices, but we need to also is there other things that we're putting on the priority list because we wouldn't want to resolve to um you know recommend demolition of of of two buildings or or not using Brooks House
and demolishing TCP before we have a real clear picture of what the plan is. >> Before next meeting, can we solicit feedback? Like I know if we were to email the teen center and say, "What do you need in space?" we would get the word gym in all caps back. And
>> so if I can just like the food pantry, the teen center is not a municipal, >> right? They they want to know what they said. We have that information. We we we spent hours. >> So I think >> and it might be slightly different now, but we do have that information. But I
think next meeting we should discuss wants versus needs of municipal things. Like we very high on the wants list is another gym or recreation space for people to use even during the school day when the gyms are unavailable at the
school. That's a very high need. Pickle ball, the the yoga programs, the the senior center, the rec center, that's a very high need. Um I a very high want. I would not put it as a need, but I would put it as a very nice to have high
priority item. Um and and I think there's other things like the meeting space I know was a priority that we've talked about that this committee before me talked about when it came to this building and there is a need for more meeting rooms um because the library is
very often booked up. Um, so I think next meeting if we could have a discussion like that where we make an official document and and list out what we think we're going to want in space and then we can assess the buildings and
how well they can meet up the space, which is why the decision to not put a new roof on TCP is not an easy super easy decision because that gym is necessary. Um, I just I don't think the building's at the point where we can
>> Dave, if we talk about the Brooks House, make sure you bring copies of the warrant uh that said the select board should come up with a recommendation and the report that was done by Michael Ray Jeff for the May of 20. >> Do you not have it?
>> What >> do you email that to me? >> What? I don't have it. >> I don't have it. Um, there should be some official records because it was part of the briefing package for town meeting. Can you send that meeting before the meeting? >> I'm not sure. I don't even know. >> And and the there was a warrant and
there was discussion associated with the warrant at the November 2024 uh special time meeting about the Brooks House. >> Can I ask you to put it back? >> I'm not clear of what you're asking. Trying to get documents. >> I I want to I want all of the information associated with the warrant
that the Tatan citizens voted on and approved at November of 2024. I want the language of that warrant. >> Oh, that that's available. the all the warrants I don't that's what I'm saying is that you know let's make sure that we have that before us and I'm not sure where the report that Michael Ray Jeff
did um that he presented at the May 2025 town meeting >> what do you mean his PowerPoint >> oh I have his power >> you think you have that >> I definitely have his power >> is that something we can get through in one meeting I I know it's also been like
at your discussion but talking about space generic general space needs and then I think we should look at TCP and Brooks House and and vote whether or not they meet they would be able to fulfill those needs in their current state.
>> I agree. I think that's what I said starting out. >> Thank you, Laura. But >> just for the members of the select board here, do do you want a recommendation from the Lunberg Municipal Building Design
Committee relative to Brooks House? >> I would. >> I would. It'd be helpful. Yeah, just a recommendation. >> Okay. >> Would you like a recommendation about TCP? Like an official vote? >> Yes.
>> Okay. And one thing I'd like to hear too when you speak of the wants versus needs, what I think one of the wants that's needs to be sold is the want to have the combined administrative services. Meaning back to what I was saying earlier about just rehabbing existing
town hall and rehabbing existing uh river, you know, that's going to have to be sold to the vote. >> You mean the combin the combination of the two buildings? >> Correct. As opposed to having divided services as we do now. because I actually had the very same exact same
experience that uh Chris did except board of health and you know I ended up at the board of health and I never once again came here for the board of health. >> Uh >> I I think that it's more I I think that that's really underselling the issue.
>> I think that we have I I think that we have respectfully a major problem with operations because we have a town hall that lives in two buildings. We do not have these are functions that are typically housed under one roof. Now,
when we're talking about the administrative functions of the school and the town, I understand from the superintendent she's she's not interested. That's fine. But the administrative functions being under one roof. This town is suffering from
operational difficulties. Part of the reason it suffers is because we who is supervising, who is overseeing, where is their oversight, where is their dialogue, where is their interaction, why are we walking across the street all day long to go to accounting and drop
off things. It is very very inefficient and is so outside the norm. Um, I would echo what the town manager has said. And in addition, I I really want to give the perspective of an elected official who
chose to sat sit in the empty planning seat for far longer than I wish I had to to keep that department running. Um it is a to call it a major operational
obstacle is profoundly underelling the the problems. The problem is not just people going to the wrong building. The problem is not just that in the middle of winter we're making people physic the
employees physically move between separate buildings at >> across the state highway. >> Yes. Um there are it's not even just direct obvious managerial issues.
There's a culture problem that arises. There is a huge there is an us versus them. And I'll tell you what, depending which building you're speaking to, it really makes sense that the other building's the one at fault. And I don't think it's either of them.
It's not that Ritter's the problem child. It's not that town hall's the problem child. It's that they don't live together in the issue. It is creating not only operational issues but it creates a culture issue and for a town
that has struggled to maintain um reliable employees over a longer period of time in recent years. We cannot afford that culture issue. That culture issue costs us actual money
not just in hiring but and not just in retention but people can't work together well. They don't get along as well. There are huge issues and that is a I I I can't stress enough how much of a problem.
Having sat there and watched it as a semioutsider, semi insider, it is it is a need. It isn't a want. Things are not operating correctly. It is a need in the same way the correct
number of bathrooms is a need. Yes, you can all pile. You can just kind of trade off and wait a long time to use the bathroom if you have to, but you're not going to keep employees and they're going to be unhappy and there's going to be some mess caused by it. I think we
were in the misbuilt building committee. I I the other the uh other uh iteration where we had the school and the um and the town functions were all going to be at Ritter and this was going to be this building was going to be um
uh meeting places and things like that. maybe pack. We weren't sure but uh so I think you're I I think we've always had that uh trying to bring it all together, trying to make it easier. And to me uh for the employees to make it
professional spot where they feel like they're being treated like professionals rather than being like, "Oh, go over there and just try to do your best." Um what was it a few years ago? the um the employee that had a cracked window >> in her office. Uh
>> who's a planner? Marjorie. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Planning your office. >> Yeah. She told me >> windows still cracked by the way. >> Yeah. >> So it's it's got to be done. It we we spent a lot of time looking at historically on how to get the right
pay, the right benefits and all that for employees to make sure that we're keeping them for those reasons. But if there your infrastructure is bad, you're going to lose people cuz so >> that's going to happen. >> I don't appreciate. So I think we're all getting to we're in the same page. I think the committee it has been
concentrating on that function of getting town administration together. Okay. The thing that what I'm hearing and understanding is that in order to be successful, the folks are thinking that we need to think about the more than just the town
employees. Well, right now our first charter to me is is to look is one of our main charters is to look at what is the town employees needs. What do we need? What what kind of a building do
they need square footage wise and things like that? And then it's up to whatever the town would like to do as far as where you where that building would be, what that building would be and things like that. I'm also hearing that there is a tremendous
desire to make a do something for the community at large and that if this committee can come up with a plan that would help the community whether that is a single building whether that is multiple buildings it
would be we will we will have a better chance of success in our total plan. Now understand, having only been in this town for over 30 years, I do remember there was a great plan, and it included a new library, a new public safety
building, a new police and fire department, and there was one figure given to that. And of course, that was voted down because it was two, it had a dollar figure to it. And then we proceeded to build them individually, and the cost was three times as much as that one single plan.
>> I'd like to avoid that. I'd like to be able to have a plan and that would be successful for all. What that plan looks like is to be determined, but we I think the idea is I think we we're I appreciate the time everybody's putting
in here and the time is telling me that we need to get down to the square footage numbers >> as well as look at a complete holistic community needs and come up with a plan for that as well. Do we in when I don't
think we're solving that today tonight? >> It's a next meeting probably [laughter] >> but I would gladly entertain when we would like to have a next meeting for our group. But that's you know um I and I because that's what I feel like I feel like we we're all walking out of here
with a a better ch idea of our charter more than anything else. Now, it's a matter of we can discuss what we wanted to go first, but it looks like we're gonna have a very packed agenda and we're gonna blow my hour and a half. >> You might want to schedule an hour 45. [laughter]
>> If we if we do first thing or two things and we have to we have to put the next the next one. Fine. >> I understand. >> Yeah. I'm okay if maybe we sep although >> put it on there though so we can't >> I don't know. Would you guys have something for November town meeting for
TCP? Okay. So, no, it's I mean, we can wait till next meeting to wait on that. >> Okay. Okay. Right. So, um you know, I I you know, I I appreciate everybody's time, but I'm you know, you know my deal, guys. I appreciate your time. And
I I know we can discuss go round and round and discuss things, but I like I think what we what the main goal was to come up with what's our what's our really our our goal? Where do we focus? Where do we put our strengths? Where do we put our time? And I think we have a good I do believe we have a much better
plan. >> Would you like to set our next meeting or do you want to just email us and tell us? >> No, I'd like to probably set the next meeting. Your first and third or second and fourth? >> Third and fourth. >> Second and fourth. >> Okay.
>> What's the 10th and the 24th >> of? >> The second and fourth >> of August >> of August. The Monday the 10th and 24th are planning board meetings starting at 6. >> That's correct. So the 10th and 24th is >> 3rd and the 17th.
>> All right. So I'm going to start with let's I don't want to delay. Everybody's got a hot on their mind. How's the third look for everybody? >> I can do the third. >> Um >> yes, but that's okay. >> I can do the third. >> Well, the third of August also not here
on the 17th. >> Okay. But does it do folks like the 5:30? >> Not at all. I cannot stress I cannot stress enough how poor a 5:30 remote meeting is for my life. Um I can do a
later remote meeting. I can do in person at almost any time. My house got people in it. Understand? Understand. And I understand that we we picked 5:30 because at the time when we were having the meetings there was everybody was going to another meeting.
>> Yeah. The 5:30 is convenient only because I can get to all the other meetings because you're very good about ending by my next meetings, right? >> Um, so because I got [clears throat] a lot of them. Um, >> okay. But is Monday a day of meeting for you?
>> No, it's not a day of meeting right now. >> Okay. >> I don't know what the school >> So, I'm okay with a later meeting on Monday. >> How about How about a lunchtime meeting or an early morning meeting? That doesn't I don't unless you're going to do seven in the morning. Folks do have to work
>> August 3rd at 6. Is that good? >> All right. Even do later if you want to do later. I mean, you folks can enjoy family time and then, you know, >> you and I need to get to bed. You know, [laughter] >> are we considering >> the third is next week, just to give you the heads up. And then also, uh, >> yeah,
>> the Sapan concert, too. >> Oh, yeah. >> That night itself. >> Yeah. Um, how about the 17th? Seven. >> I'm not available on the 17th. >> Okay. Um,
and then we're into the week of um, >> so band concert is what time? >> 7. before we >> if we have to do 5:30 or frankly if we're open if we as a group are open to meeting in person rather than on Zoom
>> that I I personally think we're way more effective in person than via >> I I agree I'm not a fan okay >> so let me I guess it would be I'm okay with 5:30 on the 3 and I'll find I'll find a place to meet >> great that whether it happens to be across the street does it have to be in
a town function >> it actually has to be in a [laughter] That's in the library. >> How many people are on our committee? >> I was partying it. >> Roughly how many are on? Eight. >> We could We are We could There's two
meeting rooms at Ritter. The one in the planning office would be tight, but you can cram eight people in there. >> That's planning office is fine. We've had more than eight in there. >> Yeah. So, I mean, but I mean, if this room is taken, we have other options. There's a personal committee, I think,
>> in here. >> I don't know where, but it's on my calendar. >> Is the personnel committee meeting >> on Monday? >> Monday. >> This coming Monday. Yes. >> Third. >> This coming. >> I meant at all. Okay, great. >> I believe they're meeting at I Well, their first meeting was at Ritter. So,
>> up or down? >> Down. Down. >> Down. >> And fine. If we did the planning, >> this room might be >> Okay. We still have to I think we still have to secure that probably with the Yeah. Yeah, >> like I think she still controls that, but yes, >> she does. >> Great. >> This this room may be available if
planning board's not using it on Monday >> on the I feel like there's something there's another group that uses this on Mondays when we're not. No, not always cuz I've I've shifted our meetings. This room might be available. Check and see. >> Okay. Okay. >> Can we have a Zoom option in case I'm driving home? I can zoom in.
>> Yes. Yeah. At 5:30 I I could try to zoom in, but I'll still have the two kids with me by myself. person out there might be at 7:00. >> You guys want to see the chaos of that? >> My my ch I understand there's an age difference.
My children, man, are they used to you're going to sit in this lobby on your tablet [laughter] so many meetings. >> Okay. All right. Fine with that. Um and I'm looking at our the agenda is going to be to concentrate on start
concentrating on uh um municipal well to to to nail down the nail down the town office spaces >> and then to start working on other municipal >> more yeah broader >> community
>> and a vote on the TCP and Brooks house. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Put them on there. If we don't get to them okay >> we don't have enough information yet. We'll just punch them. >> Okay. Mhm. >> All right. All right. >> That should give you guys something to work with. >> Well, just what >> punt >> punt >> go to the next.
>> He wants us to be another 35. [laughter] >> No, I just mean if we don't >> are we feel more discuss it has to be if we're going to vote on it, we need it on the agenda. >> It may if we get to if we're not ready to vote on it
>> table, >> we don't have to. We >> has to be on the agenda today. I will I will make sure it's on the agenda. I'll have the agenda out tomorrow. >> Okay. It's >> Are we good? I know. Okay. It's 10 p.m. Can I give a motion to adjurnn or >> You're welcome to give any motion you
want. You know the right deal. All right. I know. >> Do I get a second? >> I'll second. All right. Um go for the vote. >> All in favor? >> Uh anybody opposed? >> All right. The I close this meeting of the Lunberg Missive Building Committee
Design Committee. All right. LMTC. How's that? >> Yeah, you rename it. It's something an acronym that >> you're the one who named it. [laughter] >> I didn't do it properly. I know like other >> um we have public comments still. Is
there any public comment in the room or online? >> Make a comment real quick if that's okay. >> Yeah, sure. >> You need to here. >> You need to borrow a mic. >> Choose who you like more. My foot's asleep there from sitting for so long. Can I sit down? My foot's asleep.
[laughter] Kim Duffy 1479 Massab. Um, I came here. I didn't anticipate the meeting being so long, but I learned a lot by listening. Um, I was involved in the master plan process for those of you who didn't know. So, I was involved in a lot of like the conversations about we need a
plan. A lot of the public agreed with that. So I think in general like that as well as my own opinion like I agree with wanting a plan but it's hard to do that. Um I also applaud the committees for making some decisions. I think that's
what a lot of people are waiting for. Um you can spend a lot of time talking through it and having opinions and this and that. But I think ultimately like you have to come to a decision and I agree my opinion like from listening to it it's time. Um, and I would I support you guys voting on that for both Casey
Pacios and the Brooks House. Um, I did want to loop real quick back to the Massave um, event cuz I did go to that as well. And one of the presentations about the full electrification. Um, there was one that recommended not to do
full electrification of like one building, but to do partial for across like multiple cuz that ultimately ended up being better. So, I just wanted to kind of put that seed in there of, you know, maybe not focus if it makes sense like like obviously do it where it makes sense when it makes sense. I don't think
it's something that's like should be the primary driver of a project, but it's something to utilize um you know, as a benefit because there's um you know, a lot that goes into it. But, um I think that's all I had to say. I'm
tired. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. Um, I'm not seeing any hands raised online. Any public comment from town manager? >> No. >> From the board. >> Okay, Brian, you're you're up. >> I'll make a motion to adjourn at 10:03
p.m. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> I We are adjourned. Thanks, everyone. Okay.