I >> think we're good. >> All right. Wonderful. All right. Uh good evening and uh thank you everybody for being here uh Thursday, February the 19th uh for our storm water uh task force meetings. Um
I don't see any public in Zoom and we don't have any in here. So, we will cruise on past that and go straight to uh discussions. Um, we've had two meetings since our last meeting. We've met with FinCom and the select board.
Um, how do we feel those meetings went? I think Fencom has a very challenging role where they have to balance a very tight budget and have to make a lot of unvisisible decisions and they're just
not in the mood to add anything to the budget without you know compelling source of revenue to back it up and select board was fantastic because they're very aware of the fact that there's this hard and fast requirement from EBA so the the two
meetings were strikingly contrasted each other. In my opinion, it was nice to get um people on our team at the select board meeting. I mean, Greg got up and what's the name of that guy from the planning board? >> Matt Brener. >> Matt Brener. I've seen him like a dozen times. I've
never >> he fantastic. Mhm. >> The select board actually discussion went into budget more than I thought it was just going to be about the bylaw, but it veered off.
Um, so when I watched the FinCon, um, it seemed like one of the biggest things that came up was outsource it, put it in the operation budget, get rid of the overhead.
Beautiful. I mean, the overhead's 30%. Initial of the initial proposed budget. So, we knew that. So I think if there's ways to reduce that part of it.
>> So outsourced to everything. >> Well, the the field works already slated to be outsourced, >> right? >> Work. So >> the billing >> or still have to pay for the billing if
you outsource it. >> Yeah. But it's different hiring personnel. So, like Anna brought up, Anna brought up um I work with Anna and Anna. Um brought up uh adding personnel. That's huge. The benefit piece is a huge
component. >> Um huge cost. You could outsource that, eliminate a position, eliminate benefits at a reduced cost. >> So, what else? What was the other the person who was the engineer and project manager? We call the project manager.
Yeah. >> So, how does that work if we outsource the engineer? Because they wouldn't going to need the engineer to do constant work. >> Right. Right. I don't see that work. >> Under like the the CI contract or Weston
Samson contract. >> And I guess we could do that to do inspections if for you know the possible credits >> that part. Yeah. still need somebody to do the billing.
>> So, should we talk about one idea? I don't Is that idea still kicking around or is it dead? Okay. >> Um, Bill and I had talked a little bit about if the sewer business manager could take on the storm water billing because the storm water billing we're
thinking is once a year, right? >> And he already knows Munice and the billing system. I mean, >> it's a lot more bills than sewer. >> Yeah. But it's not quarterly, >> right? >> It would be expanded scope. He would, you know, we get into what grade, what
step, whatever. But expand his his job. >> Yeah. My my vision was the first mail and you should out to everybody and there should be detailed sheet on how to do how set up like bill pay and how to do autopiling cuz like couple years ago
I was getting bills from the water department and writing checks to them and then they did it where I could pay online and now it's like I auto pay and I don't even I pay it but I don't even think about it. I don't write a check. I don't mail anything or nothing. So the first mailing should be this is how you
set up this process and then future billings will maybe get smaller and smaller and smaller and if whoever does that I don't care but it seems to me that initial budget you have that's like for the first year but so in later years that's not going to be as much money if people have used the autopay system.
>> Is there a fee for the autopay >> like cent 30 cents a check or something like that? >> No from from town side. No, >> I don't know. Somebody charges me 30 cents for something. I don't know what it is. >> No, but that like to subscribe to a ser.
Yeah, it's not. There's got to be a a charge on >> a stamp if it's like using the unipay system. >> I don't know what >> Yeah. >> Yeah. that the town has with it.
>> Right. So, >> this would fall solely on the enterprise. >> Yeah. Yeah. The town doesn't have that capability now. >> You can pay your property tax online. I don't think you auto. >> I do that. And that's auto pay, too. >> You can do auto pay.
>> I don't worry about it anymore. >> I walk in the town hall and get my things stamped. >> Supposedly, you can do your dog licenses, too. But I couldn't find it and I have two dogs. So >> I struck out too. >> Yeah.
>> I didn't know you can do the auto pay. I know you can pay what you want to pay online. >> Yeah. >> Like the sewer bills there's a you know there's a line on the bill that says you can do it. >> But I think it takes a cut though.
>> Oh I'm sure. Nothing is a lot. It's not a lot. >> Well depending on the size of the bill it can be a lot. Um the depending on the bill and how you pay if you pay with credit in you but if it's if it's an AC credit you know like the bank transfer
it's nothing like like 30 cents >> for you paying >> but for the town or the enterprise to subscribe to this service that's what I'm >> Yeah I don't know what it is >> because it might be
>> because I know small businesses right like Square or whatever they some or cash only because it's too much money for them to get that that service. I mean, we could we could look into it. I don't know.
>> Um, >> but what I should pull up the budget. Oh yeah. >> Is this the final one that you presented to fin like when you reduce it to the bare minimum? >> Well, I had a couple, didn't I?
>> Yeah. >> Well, it's my presentation. I need >> Yeah, it's really not because if you're thinking about hiring people This isn't a 12 month the field work
especially is not a 12 month and even the inspection can't be done year round. >> True. >> So on the personnel lines what? >> Yeah. 39. >> Have you changed those numbers since you presented them?
>> No. >> That's Okay. Well, just I suppose if >> how can we reduce? >> Yeah. So, if we used the sewer business manager to do
the billing, we'd only have to pay a part of his salary. And we can just outsource any inspections, right? If somebody wants a credit, I can outsource it to whoever CI Won
Samson to have a contract with them. >> So, >> we got an engineering line just added on to that, right? Oops. >> But does that change the the first line the project manager? >> Well, they take it out
>> entirely. >> He's talking about replacing it with outsourcing. Yeah, that's what >> so it to be like I don't know what what a percentage >> for the sewer business maybe 10% of >> right >> but that's huge
>> 10% instead 85,000 would be 8500 >> right that would be a huge >> I mean you still have to pay something to the um whoever you outsource it to >> because Chris brought up >> maybe bump that engineering line up
>> Yeah. probably have to double it. But >> Chris brought up that the project manager would also be like an engineer, >> right? >> And he questioned that salary, but your data >> depends on how experienced he is.
>> Looks Yeah, entry level engineers are coming in at 85K and Rathon and I I thought your estimates are very reasonable. I'm surprised Chris called them out. >> I really am. I did some research. I found something online. Yeah, but pays a
lot more than towns do. >> I know. Well, the young engineers that I work with, they're coming in at less than 100k and they've been there for like three years. >> Yeah. >> And so they're that and civil engineers is on the lower end of the pay scale, which is a disappointment for civil engineers, but it is what it is. True.
That seems reasonable to me, honestly. >> I'm surprised Chris pushed back on a little bit, >> right? Or used to electrical engineer or something, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. the private sector. So, it's different.
>> I think that's the the only those two things. >> Yeah. So, the sewer commission meets Tuesday night. We didn't get it on the agenda, but the next agenda coming Tuesday. >> Yes.
>> So, we leave. >> Are you going to clone yourself? >> I'll only do one. What time does sore meet? >> 6. >> Oh, maybe it'll be done. >> Probably. >> Sorry.
>> Hi. Did you get my email? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Randomly. >> I had to go get my daughter's car and drop it off by him. >> Yeah. So, we're going to run it by them. This is third week, fourth week in March. That's
going to be our there agenda. >> Oh, we'll be on next. Okay. Okay. >> We missed it Tuesday. >> Okay. All right. I got it. I got it. All right. >> Two weeks after that. Okay. >> Should be on >> and town manager was okay with it,
right? >> In theory. Yeah. Any other part of that discussion is is the sewer commission willing to take on storm water work? >> Yes. >> To be the storm water commission, >> right? >> It's all water, >> right?
>> Waste water, storm water. >> It's all water. >> So, we'll get their dealings on it in three weeks. >> Go ahead, please. >> Okay. cuz I don't know how else to shrink the
>> Right. >> We have a spare charger hanging out in here anywhere. >> What kind? >> USBC. I uh didn't have time to go home and get my laptop. So, I have my car laptop and it's dead. >> Oh, no. I can tell you it's not going to
work. That >> actually work. I also I also have the Oh. Give it a shot. >> It might hear work or we're gonna hear a loud smooth. >> And I guess the other thing we could do
instead of hiring a >> project manager is hire like a admin. >> I think we want to try to avoid hiring as much as possible. Right. >> Right. be $30,000 less, more or less.
>> What have a commercial bubble with my account temps? >> Yeah, >> agencies that do that. So are we talking about the possible office staff slasheng engineer and sharing resources? >> Yes.
>> Right. >> Reduce overhead. So, what you missed is we're going to ask the sewer commission if they'd be willing to let the sewer business manager also do the billing with water
>> and then the sewer commission also be the storm water commission. >> Okay. So, would the billing just like the once a year billing that would go out? Is it basically just stuffing envelopes or going doing collections and stuff?
collections is still on hall. >> Okay. >> Um but getting it into Munis, getting it all set up and doing the bell run, >> it's a huge process. Okay. In Munis and the SU business manager does it four times a year. So he knows how to do it
>> right. >> So we pay >> part of his salary, right? >> We have to figure out a percentage 10, 15, 20% something. I don't know. >> Okay, that makes sense. So that would cut our overhead down, but
then we'd have to put more money into the engineering line item to do the field inspections if somebody wants a credit for their storm water BMP. Right. Right. >> Somebody would have to go look at it. So >> we would have to hire our engineer to go
and look >> and they envisioned doing it. I know all inspections in June, right? So have your, you know, application in by June and we'll run around and check them. So
>> there should be some paperwork required with it, right? Not just an on-site inspection like something >> that they submit as well >> that they do the maintenance log. A lot of the new homes that are being built have a log in their on&m. So
>> homes. Yeah. Residences. Residents. Yep. A lot of people have rain gardens and um trenches next to their driveway. So, it's it's easy. Just make sure the trench is clean, right? The rocks aren't full of dirt or whatever and just clean
up all the dead debris and plants that are in your rain garden. If you're doing that, it should be all right. Okay. Jenny, do you know anything about the UNIPE? >> UniPe? >> Yeah. Does it cost from like if the town
were to set up UNIPE for storm water like we have it like what's the cost? I know nothing about that. >> So sewer doesn't pay anything. >> I think they they take a fee. So, I know that like when I pay on UNIPE, which I
have to do, um they charge like $3 or something, >> but depends on the size of the bill. >> I think it's I think the lowest is like $3. >> Yeah. So, maybe there is no >> I think there be like a subscription,
you know, some kind of service fee to >> I mean, you know, buying an app, like a license. >> They're making a ton of money. I mean, you know, all they're doing is offering a front end. They're for the same front end to every single town because they really take all of the towns >> and it's Kelly and Ryan I think is
>> are they the same company? >> But so it's just they >> they're taking that money I think on the front. They might charge something but that would reduce >> Here you go. Transaction amount real estate fiscal year 2026 quarter 3
$35531. I know we'll check in taxes 50 cent. You only pay one time fee, right? Payment type AC50 cents. >> I can afford that. >> Yeah, that's what it's I want to know if the if
the town is paying >> the town's contract. >> Yeah, exactly. Is it a contract? Is there a license? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You have to set it up. >> Like, do they charge per per feature that you add? Like if you add a new bill, is it another
>> Yeah. 100 bucks a month that you >> There is There should >> Because it's a subscription like anything else. >> Yeah, there's nothing. >> Yeah, >> I think Oh, so maybe it's the credit card. If you pay with a credit card,
>> you pay a lot for the credit card because of the commission. But if you pay with um your draw from your bank account, it's almost free. >> I can never find the swell under my name. So I was under my husband's >> last name.
>> So we can >> This is the unipay site. >> I don't see >> cost Ellen and Chuck. It says 50 cents. >> Yeah, it's going to be >> is 50 cents. >> Credit is 27.50 for me. >> Yeah, >> that's cool.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> So if I use a credit card, it was 2750 with a check for your property tax. No, this is my sore bill, which is late because when I go to pay it, sometimes it's down and then I forget about it. >> I'm one of those, but it's because I'll
go to pay it and say, "Sorry, this bill isn't available to be paid right now." >> So then I'll wait till it comes again and then I'll pay it. >> It does get paid. >> It takes care of the tech contracts for the tech. >> Is it Suser? >> Yeah.
>> Oh, boy. >> That that would be who would probably know. Yeah. >> I I doubt it. >> Yeah. >> I don't think I'm doubtful that they >> because it's all it's what we're asking
is on the back end. So, >> yeah, I feel like Souzer wouldn't have anything to do with this as far as >> they're just like a third party vendor that directs them to that. I don't think Souzer >> they're not hosting it. >> No, no, it's UNIPE. Yeah,
>> it seems like has a monopoly on the >> Yeah, >> they do. They I think they have every town. >> It's when I try to look for my It says putting your town in every Massachusetts town. >> So, >> then to create their own infrastructure
that that would reduce well the bill out, >> right? Unless you set up auto anymore. >> Yeah. >> So I I think they've got >> you. That's a separate I don't I think
that's outside of you to pay. >> I get a text. >> Yeah. >> I already did this. >> Oh, what? >> Paperless billing. Online billing. >> Not payment. They're two separate things, right? >> I still get a paper bill, but I also get
a text. >> Yeah, I get an email and a paper bill. All right. Well, that might reduce. And then the other thing was if the sewer commission would take on the role of the storm water commission as well because there was concern about
filling another commission, >> right? >> Yeah. Right now sewer is one vacancy. >> How many people are in sewer? >> Five. Okay. Okay. Is it charging? >> It was, but it's not anymore. But now
it's saying I have 80%. >> But it wouldn't turn on. >> So maybe Yeah, >> it might have been too cold. It has been in the car for like two months. >> Yeah. my emergency question
they had was today I have the right fringe benefits and I think I was low on that but that all changed right >> yeah he was he said that >> I didn't question anything else but a lot of the enterprise funds are being subsized by the town because they don't
cover the office's Oh, the office space too. >> Like that. Yeah, the eating. >> Yeah, I haven't done that exercise. >> Would we? Yeah. Would we really have to pay what was it? $6,000, you know, of space. >> 3,000.
>> 3,000 >> for one person. But >> it's not a whole person. >> Well, that goes away now, right? >> Yeah. We don't have the >> We only have to pay part of that. We're using 15% of the business manager's time. >> Yeah, exactly.
>> I mean, we're getting into pennies now, but >> Yeah. >> So, where would their office be? Their office wouldn't be here, >> right? >> Okay. We're just saying that, you know, electricity, all the stuff that they're going to use, >> right? >> Is that including like equipment like a computer and >> Yeah.
>> Okay. >> I have to say Chris might be right. like on the computer. The sound supply is the computer as far as I know. >> Well, it's Andrew. >> Yeah. I don't think he had the >> He wouldn't need a separate.
>> No, but Chris says the town subsidizes the the enterprise fund. I guess in that way he does, would you? I guess next time he needs a computer. We'll have to pay for it out of enterprise funds.
>> Computers are coming, >> right? I know it's peanuts, but >> okay. Do we know do other towns like separate it out like this or with all of the staff and all that or do they usually
take just the the money that would come in from the utility and put it toward the actual MS4 compliance like the street cleaning and the catch basin or do they do other towns really break it out like this where the staff are
completely separate and you have any idea how that works in other towns? I think Jeremy talked about that a little bit, right? That some towns are kind of outsource everything and some are a blend. I What kind of a
blend? Like Cher pays for heavy equipment operators and admin buys equipment. >> I don't. >> I mean, that was my initial thought, but then it was it was too much money.
>> Yeah. I don't think you're going to be able to get it down much lower cost. It's really a question even independent of the cost. I think people still want to see it in the operating budget. >> But that's challenge for the town,
right? >> Challenge >> challenge to get it in the budget >> and keep it there. it in the budget >> and it limits you won't have abatement option. Forget about it. And you can't distinguish you can't base
it on how much you how much of what you pay goes towards storm water based on your imperous area. >> That that is that is so important. That's the one thing that this thing brings to the table is to go to like Walmart and say you got a million square feet
and you're only giving me $500 a year for storm water. You got to do better. >> Well, if you if you take the average single family home and do that same math, the average single family home only has $27 going towards storm water.
>> I got 33. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> I have the average 517 296. average value, assessed value off of BLS. >> Yeah, I downloaded the assessor's spreadsheet for 2026 fiscal year and I
took all the residences, added up all the uh values, multiplying by the $14. >> Oh, there's all different classes in >> Yeah, it's different classes. So, if you do it across the board, it's a number like 29 bucks. It's closer to your number, but if you just do the
residences because the commercials don't pay as much on average towards property taxes as the residences. >> I use the override calculator. >> It has override calculator that has average single family.
>> As far as I'm concerned, it's the same number. It's like 30 bucks, right? But it also tells you if you had to add 334,000 to to like like a prop two and a half override. Um
so if I do 300 340 the average increase is $72. Average single family tax bill in fact estimated. So, is that this? >> Okay, big question. So, there's 125,000
in your in your budget right now, >> right? And that's like $30 per president. >> Yep. >> Okay. And it's going to it's going to become what? No. So, >> adding 340,000. >> Saying it's an it's an override, right?
>> Well, I'm saying it's an override just to get the number to use the calculator. >> That's just adding bills. increasing the >> that increases or that's the new >> if you were to >> add 340,000 onto
use the Prop 2 and a half calculator, >> right? >> So, say you're going to have an override of 340,000. The average single family tax bill is estimated to go up $72. >> Okay. Up >> increase an additional $72. So we could
pay more. >> I got I got 55. >> So So you did you did it using your math and I did it? >> No, I just did it using DLS over my calculator. >> You want to compare notes or do you want to just >> No, but I'm trying to like when it goes
into the operating budget there. Okay. So there's the question. Does it stay there? that line. Money could be moved from that line to another line in the budget as the year goes on. It's not locked in. It's not necessarily earmarked for that. You can't do any
abatement option. It's a single tax rate. So, >> why couldn't you do abatements? >> How what's the benefit? How what are you going to reward them with it? >> Oh, true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> How do you Right. It's tax >> because you have to pay your property
tax. I mean, yeah. >> Yeah. You're right. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like, yay, congratulations. >> Add a boy. That's all you can get. >> Yep. >> Adding the utility is going to give us access to all these. It It's like an untapped resource.
>> You can tweak it. >> It's an untapped resource. And you know, I keep thinking about the utility company that put the pole in your drain pipe. >> Yeah. >> How much did it cost to fix that? 3,000 4,000? Oh, probably more than that.
Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know how much is giving us their their share of their property tax bill? So, it's in that I don't know if people have read it, but it's in there. They think it's like $200 a year. If they d if they planted a bull in there and you had to pay 4,000 bucks to repair it,
aren't we nice? You know, I think that's an untapped resource. And I think that's why these other towns are doing this is because they recognize that's just a to be equitable and fair. It makes sense to capture that income,
that revenue makes sense. >> Yeah. If you do like say you you had an override this year to put all of it in to put all the storm water fee into the budget that stays there. So that's the new baseline that you the 2 and a half%
you know >> it stays there if it's >> in the in the it stays in your no it stays in your property tax. It stay like it doesn't go down. >> So you're talking about storm water as a line item budget.
>> Yeah. But I'm talking about the payment that goes you pay and it goes to the operating budget and then it gets the pockets divided up. >> Yes. So if you have a line and it's 440,000 this year
next year, I don't know, maybe still be 440,000, but your you've increased your your the tax your property tax has already gone up and that stays there. It just keeps going up and up. Whereas the utility jar said like hers seven years
hasn't gone up. I I think it's like it's kind of like a hidden in >> store for funds for years and I can't help but feel like this is an infusion of cash and he's not going to be greedy. He's going to you know >> don't make it last.
>> We're basically doing the minimum just the main. >> So who decides I forget what does a bylaw draft say? Who decides when the rates go up? Does it have to go to town meeting? >> Yeah. The commission's the board. if we should go through that section in
the bylaw on how the fees get approved and so we would someone committee would assess fees then someone would have to approve it and I did not get process the approval process out of the bylaw I was completely confused by it
the select board has to approve it >> and it wasn't clear if the town has a vote on it after it gets approved. >> Someone explain to me exactly what the process is after reading that. >> I would feel better if it went to town meeting for approval.
>> Well, look, the sewer commission increase their home rates. >> Really? >> Yep. What if there's a what if there's a biblical disaster and he needs a quarter of a million dollars in short order? He can borrow the money and he could pay it off over five years
and he could raise the rates on his own. but asking for permission >> because people are really worried that it's just going to keep ratcheting up. >> Well, Chris Manard was, but he was also talking about he's going to be the only >> Yeah. He also thought he was going to pay $2,000 a year. Yeah.
>> I thought that was a bit outrageous. >> No, but >> And wasn't his house is the one that the water from the utility pool >> incident was flowing onto that you fixed? Storm water fees imposed on each parcel of residential property and each parcel of non-residential property whether
occupied or not. There should be a fixed schedule prices or rates established by the stormwater commission which shall not be changed more often than once each year. That's easy. I get that. Changes in rates shall not be made unless proposed new rates are first published. I get that. Okay. Go to the next one.
The Department of Public Works considered at a public hearing held for this purpose. So there's a public hearing. >> Okay. >> So which one is that? D >> C the last. >> But do they does the public have to approve it? >> No, it's just public hearing. I think
it's important to have public input. >> They can ignore it. But but someone has to approve it. Is it the select board >> the sh beginning of their first fiscal year proposed storm water fees pursuant to the authority
>> somebody someplace it says the select board has to approve it is it the last time >> no it's storm motor commission >> the original draft of this instead of storm motor commission said select board
a later draft one Yeah, >> I did a controller for select and it doesn't come up. So, >> yeah, >> I have an earlier version that says select board and it really >> right everywhere where it said stormwater commission and our first draft said select board. >> Okay,
I like that. That makes more sense. People are just going to have to trust that the storm water commission is not going to be crazy. There any other things to talk about the budget that came out of ether's presentation? >> I think so.
>> The tax versus utility that came up >> but Jenny's ready for that now. Yeah, >> I'm ready for that. >> Yes. >> Well, I think that we could um I think that we should start a list of all the questions that we're getting and
make an FAQ out of that. >> Yeah. >> So, >> yeah, Deresa is going to make an FAQ. >> Okay. We should get things like it's really just a tax. >> You know, we could go over why it's not. Um you know, how much am I going to pay as a homeowner? be really clear that
we're going to have one price for all the homeowners. Um, what are some other ones that we got? >> Yeah, John has some on his slide and then I got an email from someone that I sent, you know, the manager sent. >> Is this really just a way to get around
two and a half? >> Yes. >> Do you guys want to >> Why can't you put it as a line item in the budget? >> You guys want to go over? >> Yeah, I saw it in I saw that question in New York. So uh John you sent two versions so we discover what
>> the first version was short the long the second version was much more verbose. So I have >> was that set up on the screen. >> Uh yeah it will that's it. >> So so this is you know I'm not saying we have to do this. I'm saying this is a good discussion
thread >> right >> and we should kind of agree on what the right thing to do is. I like that idea. People don't understand the magnitude and scope of the infrastructure and they see this safety complex they see the library they know how much they cost the middle high school that's that's
actually on the same order of magnitude as the net worth of our infra stormwater infrastructure so if you like that idea people don't understand that the scope of this infrastructure is is upon the order of like $50 million that's a lot
>> and it's probably a lot more than that because I I just pulled some of this stuff off of search on the and you're the one that's in the business, you would know how much these pipes cost and how much it costs to install and repair them. So, if you think that's a good idea,
giving people like some trivia on what the heck it is that we're maintaining, something that's a $50 million asset that we own that we need to keep um happy for commercial industry and our residents, at least most of our residents. Nice little piece of information.
Yeah, sure. I can update that. >> Okay. If you want to pull it into your charts, I encourage you to. I like that information. It' be a nice like upfront chart in this opinion. >> I'm interested to know what you spent your money on. I wonder if other people would too. I love the telephone poll.
>> I just love that. >> Yeah. >> I know that. >> I know that when we had that. >> Oh, I never saw that picture. We should put it on the FAQ. >> Yeah. I love the fact that that that storm water drain washed out when we had that seven inches of rain. >> I know. >> You know, and you had you had to fix
that like that. That wasn't chump change. >> That must have been like 20 30 $40,000. >> Yeah. >> I would to your own horn and say, you know, we're not >> slacking off. I think one question that will come up and that's why I asked
select board the how much of these projects are covered under chapter 90? >> That will continue to come up. Yeah. >> Why can't we pay for this out of chapter 90? >> Some we can >> projects we can't maintenance we cannot.
>> Yeah. I think we have to make it clear that that what we're talking about the money we're asking for >> is outside it's it's not covered by chapter 90. >> The things that we just mentioned that came out of your budget not the chapter 90. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And that you only have$110,000 in
your budget at that time. >> Right. So you stole from other items to pay for Yeah, >> the utility poll came out of your budget. >> Yeah, I know it's a lot of work and research to collect all information to put it down, but I would love to see them when
the numbers just add up to like numbers that just don't make sense with your budget. It's just it's just at the same time we have MS4. It just doesn't it's just incompelling in your face. Yeah, we >> got a gross deficit in this budget. All right. So, I brainstormed very hard
because I went back and I listened to what's your name? Rhonda. >> Yeah. >> Rondaissio. Yeah. >> Yeah. And to her credit, you know, at least what she did is she got a lot of stuff out there. Some of it was worthless.
Um the the FinCom was nice because they really had some hard-hitting things that they really cared about. So I kind of prioritized them. So they wanted to know number two, what's the tradeoff between a town
budget and a utility? And everybody's knee-jerk response is why are you adding expenses at the same time we're struggling to balance the budget? So the second line item there I tried to talk about later on and I'd like to go
over with you guys because it's pretty compelling that we can pull it off. >> I think Teresa that she's done that kind of analysis for other people comparing the impact of putting it in an operating budget and and having it paid through a property tax versus a standalone
utility. >> I'd love to see what she's got. I think it's it's I think it's a great way to go on the storm water utility fees to be assessed. Did you have a chart that talks about that in detail?
New presentation. Are you going to lead this by the way? Is this going to be one presentation or is it >> is this is for March 5th? >> Yes. How's that going to go? Are you >> going to have a big >> Jesice is going to have >> a big part and there's going to be an FAQ I think that'll be right.
>> Okay. Is she going to do the presentation? >> I believe she is. I think so. >> Okay. Independent set of charts. >> Do we know when she's going to have that for us? >> Like I'm assuming before March 5th. >> Yeah. >> I hope next >> next week. Oh, she's away this week. So,
I don't know. >> Right. I didn't know if she said something before she left. >> No, I don't have anything other than she sent this flyer. That's all. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, she didn't create the charts and present at the U at the March 5th. I don't know what
charts but we don't have the >> talk you know what I mean but charts are nice because you can put nice graphics on them and it kind of focuses the discussion sometimes >> what kind of chart >> because I don't know that we have the
the updated imperous area data yet >> we don't have a tier breakdown yet >> the process I know people need to understand that it's going to take time for everything to come together >> I think she's close on admin They were last I heard that they were QCing the work was done. They were
reviewing it before releasing it to us. >> Right. So we all >> for March >> how the fee is going to be assessed, right? There's going to be a tiered structure if it's utilities. >> Just explaining that. Yeah, we don't know what those tears are yet and who where you fall, but >> yeah, I'm a big fan of we're going to
have the data that says what every every property owners in previous area is going to be and we should kind of get away from the tier and just tell them this is how many erus you got. >> But if we do all single family homes, >> yeah, but that's different. This is commercial industrial and all the others.
>> Oh, okay. All right. Because if you think about it, what we're doing is we're putting this tier in there and everybody between like 100 and 150 comes in at 100. But if you got a bunch of people in there, they're coming 12, 13, 140, 149,
why not get that extra little income? We'll have the database. We can back it up. We can say we have a consultant that gave us this information. This is your footprint. I'm saying we're just short changing. So instead of 10 tiers, >> yeah, just tell us what the are and it's
$88 or $90 per eru. >> Why not? >> Sorry, I think we're short changing ourselves if we do. >> Does that complicate things at all on the billing side? I don't know. >> Just everybody gets assigned an eru for their property.
>> You'll go in the GS data >> billing. We just have to set up the the spreadsheet with the property and the dollar amount >> and then put that in the munus.
>> I don't know if it'll go in like >> we have the data. We can run the numbers both ways, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's going to come out in our favor if you do it by eru and get rid of the tiered structure because it's because you're what you're doing is you're truncating anybody above the tier until you get to the next tier. then
you're going to leap leap frog forward. The utility will introduce inefficiencies in the system. So, um, everybody brought that up. Why do you want to hire somebody? Um, >> I don't agree with that. >> Well, we're trying to not hire anyone as
a cost savings measure. I don't know that it creates inefficiency. >> And what what kind of inefficiency are they targeting for? Well, I think it's the billing. >> That means are they concerned with mutis because
>> the sewer billing did get messed up because munis wasn't working right. >> I It's still not 100% but we're much better off now. >> Yeah. >> I like the idea of having your civil engineer in house.
I do too. >> Yeah, the prop two and a half override is bypassed with the utility. People may not understand that, but but one person from the fincom and someone from the select board, they both called that out said explained to us, you know, you okay?
>> Yeah. >> Um, they both call it out and people just need to understand that, right? So, I think that should be part of, you know, the question and answer and I think we know how to respond to that. How to respond to non-residential properties who have well-designed storm
water systems and that's going to be the abatement system and the four requirements are being amended. Would it be wise to over not overreact >> and does the fact that we do not stand out? >> So go ahead. When they say that would it
not be wise not to overreact they think that a lot of people think that the current administration is not going to move forward with the right >> which >> I don't know that that's true based on things that this administration did in the previous administration they were
not they did not and some of the EPA stuff definitely but >> they got more draft is more strict right now >> according to Jesice right >> so that's so subjective I can make the argument that this administration is focused on private industry making money
and profit >> and we're a public entity. So, how is he going to help us >> save the money? I I don't think I >> Yeah. >> And we're basing the budget on the current permit >> requirements. So, which has been
extended and extended and who knows could be extended. So, we're not even thinking about, oh, it could get more right >> more restrictive and more expensive. >> Yeah.
>> And not using sand. Does that help? >> She'd still get dirty. We're still tracking sand through mother town. >> How many yards of sand you spread in a typical >> Doesn't matter. Zero stuff getting in the water, right? How many yards of sand were you spreading in
the winter before you stopped? >> Probably >> 100, 200. >> No, 2500. >> 45 >> probably. >> Yeah. >> You used And they used to have to sweep that up. >> Yeah. So, can't you negotiate the rate because we don't use sand. Can you knock
that $800 per mile down to >> But there's lots of other stuff that gets swept up. >> You can picture the snow. >> I mean, you have to sweep no matter what. That's a parking lot that an OM. They're all dirty. >> They're all dirty. No. Yeah, the end of my driveway. >> There's kind of thing.
>> Yeah, besides the giant crater that's there. But >> okay, take that one off the table. >> Yeah, it's good that we don't use sand. Yeah, that that helps. >> I was convinced. >> But it's everything else that's still there. >> Okay. All right. I was convinced that would really reduce the load, but you're
saying it doesn't. It just >> You still got everybody that's commuting through from New Hampshire towns and whatever the every third car that throws a bag of trash out their window with god knows what in it. >> I remember going for walk around the
plant to spray with one of my buddies and in the spring when the big huge gargantuan piles of snow melt, >> there would be an enormous amount of >> Yeah. >> debris. Yeah. So Mike Munch is in the O and M plan at at the Walmart fountain. They basically
in the spring they have to go through and sweep the So when you pay for street sweeping, it's just you're paying to sweep the streets. It's not based on how much they collect. >> Right. >> Right. >> It's usually by the mile.
>> Okay. So whether you're picking up more or less, it the cost is the same. >> Yeah. Will the utility make the town less business friendly? >> Probably not. >> No. >> I'm convinced that like Walmart never would have moved in here if they would
didn't have a safe community, a good fire department, a good police department, a good intersection with that doesn't get plugged up with traffic and good roads including storm water. >> So tax rate. >> Yeah. I say, but it's not even Walmart that would pay. It's the property owner.
>> Yeah. that would pay. >> Yeah. >> Um and say it ends up being $10,000 is which they're going to pass on to Walmart. Is Walmart >> are Walmart and Hannerford going to be $2,000 and $6,000 or >> No, I think it's more small business that people worry about, right?
>> But still, even the small businesses typically don't own their buildings. It's the property owner that owns the building. >> But that fee gets passed on. >> Yeah. >> Just like a land the landlord's going to pass it on, >> right? the MS4 is a federal mandate and as a result should be included in the town budget. Would this allow the
expense to get tax deduction? And she's right. Um but I did some research when when that tax bill under Trump administration like six or eight years ago was passed, they raised the personal deduction and the number of people that itemized dropped from like 30% to like
10. So very few people itemize. Uh yeah, but also $60 as a tax deduction is not going to change. It really is. >> If it was $100 and they're in the 22cent bracket, they was $22.
>> Even $100. Yeah, even $100 is not >> the balance. >> Well, the life cycle cost of property storm water management become reasonable. I don't know. That's last on the list. I don't even if you want to talk about that. >> Life cycle cost. But I did bring up the
this example of Hickory Hills Dam as $500,000 project specifically designed to prevent an over topping um event 15 inches of rain over 24 hours from eroding the dam and having a failure. Was mandated by the state. It was half
million bucks. That's 500 plus residents. That's $100 per resident per year for 10 years to pay for that project. So this is it's $100 for people to support Star Wars whole town. >> Most likely not even.
>> Yeah, we're looking at less than 100 most likely. >> Yeah, hopefully. >> So it's it's not not a family. And I put my personal experiences in there. Um $35,000 to renovate my basement because it was all ridden with mildew. So, this is where I got my $33 from.
So, we may not have been using the same numbers. I used Bill's 2026, $125,000. Is it 125 or 110? I >> think I'm 110. I have to look. >> Okay. >> All right. You use 110 in your
calculations. I just did the 000357 >> times the average tax bill for single family home. >> Okay, >> that's all. >> Okay, they're they're in the ballpark. If they're within three bucks of each other, I think that's pretty good agreement.
>> Is the average tax bill 8242? >> Yeah. What did you come up with? >> Uh, let's see. FY26 average single family tax bill is 74.44 >> and I had 3649
residences. >> Yeah, >> this override calculator >> all kinds of numbers that are all over the place and exactly which one to use we all have to agree on. But they're all they're all the ballpark. >> Yeah.
>> You know, this is just like you won't hit the target. You don't have to hit the you hit the bullseye. You know what I mean? So, we're trying to get close. That's the distribution. So, we're really residential community, right? And um the interesting thing is that little
teeny tiny sliver represents the little storm water budget. So, we're all the songs just for $1 out of every 300 in our town budget. People appreciate it. So, I don't know if you guys looked at these, but I did kind of like a spot
check and we've done this before >> and we just I just looked at some of the properties. >> So, Central GA Lenberg Crossing LLC, that's Walmart Mountain >> and 1439 is what I got as the current tax rate. their taxes for fiscal year
2026 are 148 591. So at a 0.00357 times, you know, that rate and you get 530 a year. That's that's how much of their taxes when you distribute it across all of the line items and our expenses. That's how much goes to storm
water. That's not a lot. And I think the tiered structure that have been proposed is that we're talking about collecting over $10,000 a year from them. Actually, if we based on the ERU would probably be a lot more than that.
Okay. >> So, you know, it's going to have that pile of snow when it melts, right? And I I don't know what you can do to clean up a leaky, you know, fluid from a car. I guess that's something that the storm water has to cope with. I mean, is there
something you can do to clean that up? Yeah, there's oil water separators you can put into catch basins, I guess. But >> a lot of cat litter. >> What's that? >> A lot of cat litter to soak up the oil. >> But if it's going through say a rain
garden, it's getting filtered, it's getting captured in the rain garden media. Oh, I don't know if Dice wants to use that in her presentation. Um, want to go to the cigarette butt. You missed it. I I poured my heart out
before you got here. I was taking a picture of the cigarette butt and some guy saw what I was doing and pissed it off and told me I have no idea why, but that's gross. >> I was at Hannerford the other day and the parking spot next to me. I got out of my car had like 15 cigarette butts in
it. Like are you just sitting there? Cuz there's parking. It was like the fourth parking spot away. >> People dump their ashtrays out. Is that what's going on? >> Oh, maybe that's what it is. >> I think that's what happens. >> Okay. People are smokers ashray. So they just dump it out. >> Dump it on. That's makes perfect. >> I feel like with my car, it's kind of
old and it doesn't have even have an ashtray. >> Yeah. >> 2019. >> So mine is the same year. Yeah. I don't have I never realized I don't have until it didn't come with the It came with like the thing that goes in the lighter but not an actual lighter.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But that's where you can plug in an adapter. >> Yeah. >> This is basically what we already know. Two broad measures. The equivalent residential unit which is $4,200 according to CI Nick Chris for sold us that. And then anybody and then the 700
parcels um Austin and Samson are going to give us and it's going to nail down 700 parcels. So what the ERUs are for those parcels and that's going to be priceless information. they were paying for it and I I guess I understand I want
to take advantage of it and uh large commercial parcel projected at $10,000 per year. The three highest tier properties would provide a projected $30,000 revenue and 10,000 is a big >> it is. That is huge.
>> That might be too big. >> Do what I did. Next time you go to Walmart, get our car to walk around can >> show. >> And if there's an abatement, you know, we talked about baiting. They could cut that in half maybe. >> Yeah, that's that's
>> they would have to actually do the maintenance of because they have all those >> in with that, >> right? It would be very helpful if there is a a benefit to that because they have a pretty big area, but they they don't think they've ever done anything.
>> I don't think so. So, >> yeah, I like the dynamic instead of billowing to them saying you managing your storm water, they're going to come to us and prove that they're managing their storm water for us. And then I like that dynamic at lock and I like
people should think about that because that if everybody in town did their own housekeeping, wouldn't it be nice? There'd be something else. >> Bless you. So, these are other large commercial parcels. The um one on the top is the
warehouse >> and that has a $22 million assessed value at least according to the sheet that I downloaded from the assessors. And they're actually contributing 1152 a year. I I hope they're paying their tax bill because that's a lot of money.
That's $322,000 a year they have to pay in taxes. You know, how are they if they don't have anybody in there? What are they affording to to operate that place? >> Well, that's not just that Lindenburgg Central,
though, is it? Is that not all? Is it? Cuz >> I think it is 475 Lister Shirley Road. >> Yeah. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> Oh, just the top one. >> Yeah, just the top one. >> Okay. >> Yeah. The next one is all the Proctor Stone and or I'm sorry, Powell Stone and
gravel. So, he's got a whole bunch of properties. >> So, I added them all up and they really aren't assessed very high. I guess the buildings just aren't worth much. The shelves, they're not like residences. They're not fancy. >> Is something that kings and not pals or
is it >> PSG? PSG. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. PSG. >> I have no clue how to assess kings. I looked at and it was just like a a network of >> all kinds of stuff and I can't help but feel like we need Weston and Simpson
>> and a lot of it is permeable >> so >> yeah right I think the same for these properties too right >> I went and walked around and from what I can tell a lot of where they have the pallets of material stacked up is old concrete that's cracked up and breaking apart so I don't know how they're going
to grade that they're going to call that permeable or not. So those these are all upper permeables. Fits for gas and electric. This is my favorite. $4 million assessed value. They're giving us $27 a year. >> Uh that's UNIL, right?
>> Yeah. >> UNIL pays $217 a year. >> No. And that's their contribution to the storm water. Okay. If you distribute it in proportion to all the other line items mad for a second, my thousand.
>> Yeah, that's fine. Get mad. So yeah, their their total tax bill is $60,000 and $9.99, but like one in every $300 adds up to like 217 a year. >> And wouldn't it be nice to get a phone call from the facility manager and even
tell saying I don't like how high my utility bill is worth doing this just to get that phone call. So by doing this like units their contribution to the storm water
line in the budget is only like seven times higher than what >> average single family home owner is paying. >> Yeah. I didn't put non-p permeable areas on these because I didn't want to get it wrong. But I view
all of these as upper tier. Well, we know the the warehouse they put in Greg told us they spend a lot of money. Like they're they're dis discharging less water now than before they built. >> So they would be in my opinion a slam dunk rebate. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. That would be like a no-brainer. >> But it's not 100% forgiveness. That's >> No, no, no, no. I'm thinking 50%. We talked about before and you were like that's too much. >> Well, I don't think any more than 50%. >> Yeah, >> that would be the the >> So water commission can figure that out.
They want to have different levels. >> The abatement >> don't actually use much of the storm water. They have like a stream right next to them and they dump into the stream and they bypass the storm water. >> Are there any properties that are like that? >> Streams. >> You can't dump into streams.
>> That's really >> So it has to go. >> But that still ends up in storm water. The streams end up in Hickory Hills. >> Okay. So they so all the commercial propert all the properties have to discharge their water into the storm water system. Is that true statement or not? And Ideally, we don't want people
storm water system going into rain gardens and >> okay >> bas and places where it can infiltrate and clean. >> So I was going to I'm just asking if some property owners are going to come and say well I really don't use your storm water system. It kind of goes to this >> it all dumps in my yard. You've heard
that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So why should I have to pay if >> you should be paying me >> to mitigate storm water because you're dumping onto my property >> and well the answer to that is by upgrading our storm water infrastructure
hopefully aren't going into >> yeah can't do nothing without money. >> Next one is um the next one's good too. >> So these are three other properties. One's the Twin City Baptist Temple. They don't pay anything. They've got at least
50,000 square feet, maybe 100,000 square feet. You know, WNS will tell us how much it is. Um, >> that's the Twin City. >> Okay. I've never seen that.
>> 160 Massav is Mackie and their building's not best assessed very high. Their contribution 64 a year and you that's a huge lumber yard. >> Mhm. >> They've got an enormous amount of imple area. Mhm. >> 308 mass. That's like a stopa planet
fitness. That's 157 a year. And >> each of those could easily be one one,000 to 2,000 a year. And I don't think they would push back too hard because they've got a lot of impermeable area. >> Oh, there's not a lot of tenants in there right now. >> Which one is that? Is that the
crossroads? >> Yeah, the crossroads thing. Okay. Dollar store or something. >> Oh, yeah. That closed a long time. I think >> there's a gym now that's opening. Just opened. Yeah. >> Oh, is it? >> Where is that? Empire Athletics, I think. >> Okay. >> Oh, and where? Like the Extapa and the
Lindberg Family Practice. Yeah. >> Yep. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah, cuz I thought it was just down to Lindberg Family Practice in Exta. >> Yeah, they they have a website up. They they just got their we approved their license on Tuesday. >> Everybody looked up the rings.
>> It's pretty reasonable. >> So, are these reasonable to people? I mean, we're looking at stuff that people are paying like 0 and 64 and 157. And between those three properties, we could probably get three or four $5,000. >> Did you do Arrive? >> No.
>> Cuz I think about Arrive being from being on the board. >> Arrive has like 150 properties. I think they're all rental, >> right? But so it's one big property that's owned by Emerald Place LLC. Yes.
>> And it is assessed at >> This does not make any sense to me. >> A huge >> $547,900. >> What? >> No, >> it's the whole property. >> What's the class? >> But there's 150 apartments, >> but the class code is office.
>> Yeah, there's 150 apartments and they're each assessed anywhere from like 200 to like 500. >> They don't show up on GIS. >> Oh, weird. But if you go to the town assessor's spreadsheet, one carousel lane has 150 properties and they're all
apartments or condos. They're all they'll code it as condos. >> Yeah. >> So I wondered about that. We either hit them individually with residence taxes or we treat that whole unit as a integral kind of like >> that was my understanding of what we
were leaning towards was treating it as one integrated property and then one >> with one property on the GIS map. >> This is this yellow outline. >> Yeah. >> Is the entire property >> and on GIS
>> it may not be up to date. I mean I mean it's showing the sale date of 202200 has to be for like the main building or something. >> Yeah, that sounds like >> what was the last last
>> that can't include all those. >> So this shows >> I mean this shows 2025 this that's my house. this >> I should be able to show >> find it >> and it's it shows the sale of 429 for 76
million and then it shows an assessed value of 547 that's for 2025 202 >> and what is that code 3400 that >> means office >> yeah that's what it says >> what is what is the what is the number >> yeah office what is the street number
>> um one carousel lane >> okay I have in the 2025 20226 assess values by location spreadsheet. Um where's the one carousel lane? Oh, there it is. CP5 emerald place. You're right. It's
549,000 but 10 carousel lane 11 12 carousel lane. And these are all coming in at 26 27 oh 271 230 271 281. There's 150 of them. >> Okay. There's 150 carousel lane properties and they're all assessed for
$200 to $300,000. >> And the use code is 1020. >> Yes. Yes. >> Which I think is >> Where do I get that? >> Go to the assessors >> Yeah. >> website. >> Yeah. And the spreadsheet is there. It's a downloadable link.
>> Um board of assessors. Yeah. Yep. Just do a find on carousel. I'm not mistaken. >> Oh, okay. >> I like the idea of treating it as one entity. >> Mhm. >> And then they're going to one property
owner. >> Yeah. I don't think they're individual condos. I think that they're all can rent it out. >> Yeah. >> And it's going to be a lot cheaper for them and it's going to be a big bill anyway. So this way he can distribute however. >> Yeah. 25 bucks to each
>> and plus it's only one bill for us to mail. >> Yes. Like what do you think? But that's another heavyhitting guy. So we'll get5 or $10,000 from them. >> Mhm. didn't we already go over that?
>> Um, the bylaw. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I think it's all clear now. That's not vague anymore. I really got confused from the the verbiage from the first version. Um, so I'm sure that Jerice will go over
that. She'll say stuff to that effect. So this one is designed to illustrate how the fees will be distributed if it's a line item in the budget or if it's a utility. So on the left basically the residents are paying per pretty much all
of it. Um it's just if you look at the assessed values of the properties and how much of the uh tax levy comes from residences versus commercial and industry that's the distribution. But if you in if you have a utility now
you're going to use a meter which is the impermeable area and the balance is going to shift. there's so much impermeable area on on the industry and on the commercial that they're going to pay a much larger portion of the uh
expenses. >> It's shifting the burden a bit. >> Yes. >> Like a split tax rate would. Yes. Which we don't have enough commercial. >> Yes. >> It would be just like a split tax rate. I think that in combination with the
ability to get credits or abatements. >> Yeah, >> it's only possible with utility. >> I think those two points make it >> I love the abatement process because these guys are going to say, "Oh, I don't want to pay this." Say, "Send us your manuals." You know, you have my
number on DPW directives, my phone number, my email. You come to me. I don't want to go to you. >> I mean, they have to balance the cost of maintenance. Yeah, >> some of them make it because Yeah, >> I don't want to spend 2,000 bucks on a rain garden because I just don't want.
So, they pay the $100 fee. >> Yeah. Doesn't make sense to put a new one in. But if you already have it, >> yeah, >> it makes perfect sense to come. >> Or it might make sense to do something, you know. Well, but I think the
Tim would know the the storm water uh rules and regulations and stuff for new developments have changed a lot like the special permit that you need to get if you disturb so much. >> Yeah. Yes. Right. >> Property, you need to get the storm water permit or something. So,
>> so as far as new development goes, we're going to see a lot more mitigation in place from the get-go, >> right? So they will be forced to do that. >> Yeah. And it's just incumbent upon the property owner to maintain it to
>> which comes at a cost. >> Yeah. >> And they may get an automatic abatement if it's new construction and they need to Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And maybe for >> the first year then somebody has to make sure that they're actually >> do they have do they have to reassess it? Do they have to reapply for the
baitment every year or is it like a threeyear abatement when >> that's what I was I was thinking maybe like a three year. It wouldn't be >> because that would reduce the overhead. or yeah, >> but it also >> something. Yeah, >> it's nice to have a watchdog otherwise people slip off. That's all I'm saying. So, it's got to be compromise.
>> We had this problem. >> Yeah, >> big time. >> Well, I think every year we would want to see their maintenance log. >> Yeah. >> Right. You don't submit it, you don't get your credit. >> Okay.
It may be well to say engineering, I guess, or only inspect them every three years or something. >> Yeah, I like that. It It's It's like imposing uh enforcing you imposing the
requirements on the town, commercial, and industry to do their own housekeeping. And uh I just think it's a great idea. Want to see what's on the next chart? Um, this is just where I got my
information from. $125,000, I think, is the line item that was in that budget that was presented at the town meeting on May 17th, 2025. So, that's where I got the information from. There's the total tax levy on the left. I really didn't know what the hell
a cherry chart was and debt exclusions and free. I had no clue what all that stuff was. Well, now I do. I'll go to the next chart. There's really not much information there. So, this Renee, you got a PhD. You're
smart. Tell me if I'm wrong. So, this is kind of like the one chart that since I'm an engineer, makes sense to me. And it tells the story. So, the town budget currently, and that's like the top chart in the left in the middle
says current. So, we don't have any new existing person. We don't have cost, don't have any expenses. We do have vendors. $125,000. That's what's in the budget. So if you split that amongst all the residents, now you go down below and you say the
current town budget about 119,000 that is going to the residents and the rest goes to the commercial. That's about 33 per year. So that's real close to what you calculated. I don't think they're too far off. So if everything went into
the townline budget and Bill got his $336,650. I think that's the number that you wanted, right? That's the vendors with sweeping. >> Yeah, he's rounded it to 340, but that's good. >> Okay, so 95% is 319800. So the middle
bottom says proposed if it went into the line budget. And this is what the fincom wanted to know is why don't you just get rid of the engineer and then your costs and expenses and just give it hit us with this and put in the town budget. Okay, that's fine. Then I worked out the
math and we can play with numbers but that came out to like 88% per year. So again, >> that's 340. That 336 still includes overhead >> or no, you just took the two bottom just street cleaning and sweeping, >> right? >> Those two lines. >> Yep.
>> Okay. >> Yeah. So that's 88 per year, which is less than 100 that would promise people, but actually this is the this is not the utility. And the lower left box says, note that this represents a total storm water budgetary line item as a change of
55 per resident per year. So people are thinking that the utility is going to be up to $100 added expense, but it's not. It's more like it's more like 55. >> Well, okay. But you take that storm water line out of the budget. >> Yeah. >> Residents are still going to be paying
$33. It's just going to go to another line. >> You're right. But we need an override. So this is a way of getting more money into the budget without an override. >> I don't want to say that though because we need an override. >> Yeah, it's coming. Yeah, >> I I want I think we need I think we need
>> But you're right, the the storm water line item budget is only going to go up by $50 to $60 per year per res. It's not going to go up 100. And and this is the part that I think is
compelling. If you did a utility and you hired your guy and you had the expenses, even if you farmed them out, then the utility would bring in if distributed using the erus according to
uh CI, didn't they say 40% of the budget would come from commercial and other? I didn't use 40. I used 35 because I'm assuming baitments are going to come in and it's probably going to be less than 35, but that's per year per resident. It's the same price as if you put it in the line
budget in the line item. >> Now, I should have myself into thinking that this isn't going to affect the residents whether it paid through the utility or not. >> So, what did that 323? >> Oh, that's 95% of the total storm water utility >> of the 49.
>> Oh, take it back. It's 65% of the total storm water utility because the balance of the expenses between the CE between the commercial and industrial and other is going to be 35% and the residents pay 65%. So, shouldn't
you do that same 65 35% from the town budget from the 336 >> because that other chart that I showed you say that because the town budget shows that >> oh it's 95% resident >> yeah residents are shouldering the shouldering the >> so with the utility the residents burden
goes from 95% to 65% or 35% whatever I don't know >> it goes to 65% from 95% >> okay >> so these numbers are like I said they're hitting target. They may not hit the bullseye, but I I tend to believe them and I don't mean I'm snooking myself into the wrong thing here because that's
a good news story. So, what's happening is the commercial and industrial and others are going to give us the money that we need to hire our guy. That fair and the argument is yeah, because they have sold in permeable area.
>> No, we're not. Okay, just to play devil's advocate, those are well, we're not business friendly then. We're not it's gonna make >> to argue that we're not business friendly. I say business run businesses. >> This is the first town I've ever lived
in >> that doesn't have a higher tax rate for businesses. >> Especially doing this via erus like it is literally just asking people to do their fair share, >> right? >> Like >> sometimes doing your fair share costs
you a little bit more money. It's going to hurt. Have we always had the same tax rate for businesses? >> I think so. I think the businesses are going to hate it. But just go walk around Walmart Mountain. It's huge. It's gargantuan. And he's not giving us any
money. They're not. There's no income there from that. So what happens in the weird alternate world where the businesses all somehow miraculously get abatements and they reduce their bill and we don't meet this
>> well back does the burden shift back to residents we talked about this before you know how there's different >> rate structures there's like four of them >> well we can do the residence rate structure too which is like 60 survive 70 and we can kick the other guys up a a
bigger rate structure, >> 100 per year instead of 60 per year. >> Then what's going to happen is you're right, they're going to the baitments are going to flow in like crazy. They're going to do their own housekeeping and it'll come down to match those numbers 6535. We can play with the numbers to make
them work out so that we get that. I'd be interested to see how many abatement applications come in in other towns because there is there's a cost in maintaining your storm water infrastructure which may be more expensive than actually paying the obviously we want them to maintain their
storm water infrastructure but there is a time >> expense there's a actual expense >> if you have to hire somebody to come in it's easily going to beat out $100 >> right >> for your >> well even for the the um the business is
too like if they have to dredge or like that starts to get very expensive >> then we won't ask for >> we want them to do that obviously we want them to take care of >> incentive for them to do that but if they think it's not cost incent cost effective for them they'll just >> right
>> I like it now I'm sorry more I think about this the more I like it >> I don't I I don't foresee a future where we would have every business >> Oh no I know I'm just trying to >> I would say you know any business that's not fairly what is it like the last 5
years maybe how long have that most businesses don't have an M in place that's pretty new as far as >> building goes so if they were applying for probably they'd be putting something on their
property that's new >> but after a bait we still have a budget a target number that you need to hit with the utility So there have to be some >> there's going to be some uncertainty. So what do we do when that happens? >> I don't know. It's up to the storm water
commission when that's >> which is you give the town the budget >> and you tell them this is our going in position. We don't know what the abatements are going to be. We're assuming they're going to come across in like 35% first year maybe 45% 30 3%. And
we'll just use those as numbers and say this is what we got. And after 3 years or maybe every year we could tweak things. The budget may be the same but the balance between the commercial and the >> may change. >> I mean the fee is based to hit that target budget number right
>> we need >> how it gets distributed is the trick. It's kind of like um drivers points like you know what I mean? People who get tickets are going to pay more for their insurance than everybody else. So, it's kind of sort of
the same thing. People who are maintaining their their uh storm water are going to get a incentive. >> So, so I hope people understand that. So, so they kept asking the question, why do
you want to add this overhead? And if I had my way, I would change the question to is the added utility expense to be imposed on a commercial, industrial, and other sources worth the benefit. And all these green light items came out of your chart. So it's just a an echo
>> of what you had presented. And you're right, you're going to we're going to save money. I mean, how much did you spend on CI for constru consulting work to write reports and do the consulting last year? >> Yeah, 25,000. Are you but that includes FBMP?
>> No, per year. >> All right. So that can we can erase that going forward? We don't to do that anymore. >> But that in house with if you were to be able to get an engineer, >> right? Yeah. >> 25,000 is not also for an in-house person. Well, no. I
was saying if we added it to that person who we were looking at for in-house, bump them up by 25,000, you have that savings there and then they could do the reports. >> We have to do a report that's not in his line item and budget. It's just a sweeping and the catch basins.
>> He had it in his budget. The 25,000 that >> But if you could put that into and you could get maybe a better higher level of engineer too. No. >> See, but I think there's push back to not hire. Yeah, look at these numbers.
>> But I I know that there's push back. There's also push back to the entire thing. >> Well, yeah. So, I don't I do think that it makes sense for you to have somebody dedicated to this in house. I think if they could take on that CI stuff, you
can get a little bit more higher caliber of engineer and also bring that stuff inhouse. You might have >> have them work on that in the off season, >> right? >> And then have them work on have them work on maybe they have to build it.
>> Would you farm that work out to someone like Greg Roy to help you find the person to do that? >> No, we would hire. Yeah. >> Okay. So, okay. You know how to vet a candidate and make sure they're qualified. Okay. >> Just want to make sure I'm allow I don't
enjoy hiring people. It's never been my forte. Good stuff. >> So, I don't know if you want to keep going or not. These are the two heavy hitting items that everybody wanted to know. So, those are his bullets.
Elicit discharge detection. So, this guy's going to actually go and what? Sample water out of the gas stations and stuff. >> We don't do that now, >> right? >> You're going to be able to do it now. And if we do it, I have to hire a CI to do it.
>> Sold. >> That's it. Do you have all the money that we spent on CI doing that stuff >> per year? >> I can take it all up. >> Yeah, because that I mean, if a lot of that could go on to an engineer, that
would that could be pretty a pretty big dump off from one to the other. That's got to be over a hundred grand for an engineer. >> What with the benefits? >> Yeah, well over. >> Well, we had somewhere what 76,000 or
something. Add 25,000 to that. Add some of this testing, all the other stuff that you like the little they could design a storm water a BMP if they're an engineer. I think that would be in the house. >> It's going to come down to compare how what does it cost to outsource versus
what's the full cost to hire someone. >> Outsourcing engineers is pretty expensive. I think sometimes the >> contract engineering is very expensive. >> If it's wrapped into all the other work that's being done with CI or Western S or whatever doing it,
>> they can take on a lot of the stuff that is going to be managed within the storm water. I think that that could be a good cell. I think that's the question having hiring someone or just wrapping those responsibilities into my opinion is if
you get a good guy it's more fortunate to do it this way. You'll be collaborating with them in house and you'll be directing him and um if they're competent and they like their work it'll work out great. You get something that's not so good.
really stuck with it. >> How many hours do you think it takes CI to prepare the MS4 compliance? >> I have to check the ability. >> Okay. I think it's 20 because it's like a flat fee of 25,000 every year.
>> So that's something as they're looking at hourly. Actually, I have to let I think about it. Find the uh the contract that contract. I have far too many
files. Forget where I This is two years ago, but annual >> It's only gone up since then. >> 3500 just for that report. >> Did they estimate how many hours it takes them to
>> No. BMP inspections, plan updates, >> the BMP design up to 18,000. >> Yeah, I'm pretty sure we went over there. >> I mean, that alone, if we had somebody in house who was able to do stuff like
that. >> Yeah. >> And that's part of the MS4 compliance. um plan updates. >> Yeah. >> 50,000 >> that one year. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Some of it it's the mix like fixed cost
versus time and materials, >> right? >> So, it's a combination. >> Even if you take out that Yeah. Well, the I mean the storm water BMP $18,000 is a significant cost. >> That was a one time BMP design. Yeah. But that's still
>> We shouldn't have to do that again. I mean, for a Well, we will have to put more BMPs in at some point, though, won't we? >> Or is that just a one time thing? >> Department's going to demand it. >> Yeah. >> $18,000 for a design is pretty cheap.
>> Mhm. 12,000 for the utility. >> 30,000 something that like I'm thinking of the primary school playground. I think it was like a $30,000 investment. >> That's a whole playground though, right? >> Yeah. Primary school playground.
>> Is that the >> It's not that big. >> Okay. Right. >> I don't know. I don't even know what the primary school is. My daughter's 20 I'm 21. So, we didn't go to use the schools here. Yeah. I mean, if you could get somebody in here, say 125,000 all in with the
fringe, maybe that would a lot of that stuff would be offset by that and it would be somebody who's familiar with everything that's happening, too. >> So, >> and it would be something to work on. So, you could have somebody full time
when they're not working on abatements and checking on MMS and all that stuff. They'd have a lot to work on in the office, >> right? That's ideal. But then we got to, you know, the finance committee is saying too much overhead. >> Yeah.
>> If you can pay for it, or they don't care. They want to see the revenue to back up your expenses. That's what I think. And I think they're very skeptical that you can cover your expenses. But I think if you can convince them that you can cover your expenses, what's their complaint? We're
adding value. Right? This is what our charter is. If I'm wrong, for give them these outside the box ideas that they can chew on, and if they're good ideas, they should run them. If they're not, take spit them out. But we're to the one of the underlying
premises is we will cover our expenses. This is kind of redundant. And >> so I don't fully understand how town meeting works cuz I still haven't been to one. I was sick of the last one. But as far as >> be a doozy. >> Yeah. As far as
>> excited. >> As far as finance committee goes and select board goes, I mean, we're trying to convince them in a way that we just want them to like advocate for us, right? Yeah, but we don't if finance committee isn't on board. It's still we're still really just trying to convince the
residents. >> Yeah. >> You know, they did what was it $50,000 to hire West and Samson? >> Yeah. Isn't that nice? >> I think they want to see they get their money's worth. You know, I think split >> right and it was wasn't unanimous
support. Yeah. But >> but they passed the >> town meeting passed it. Yeah. Yeah. >> And that's kind of where I'm going with it is if >> we can get our messaging right and get ahead of it.
>> Yeah. >> I mean, obviously it's nice to have the endorsement and finance committee, but >> if we don't have it, we don't have it. >> They seem like a hard cell. >> Yeah. >> So, if we cover our expenses, what does come from? >> Yeah.
I I think the sentiment of the reluctance to really wanting to hire and create a new position goes beyond fin. I think just in general >> in town there's >> the sentiment of sports board seemed >> less
>> they were supposed we were supposed to just look at the bylaw. >> Yeah. >> Which didn't really I thought there were some good questions. >> Yeah. It's it's because of benefits. The the I mean the massive jump in health benefits outrageous is insane. That's
why there's that big push don't hire anybody >> and it's you carry those benefits into retirement. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The town pays for the the school's retirees health insurance >> for the rest of >> that. ally. They I know there's a
pension, >> but >> I'm on Medicare and between me and Cathy, it's $1,000 a month. We still have deductibles. >> What a benefit. >> Yeah. Well, that's and that's is a huge benefit and that's why they don't pay as
well as private sector. But like the paraprofessional I think school said it was like a 20ome thousand salary and if they took the family plan it'd be $30,000 just for the family plan of insurance. So it's more than their salary.
>> But is that $20,000 full-time 20 something full time >> for kindergarten parrot? I think that's what they quoted. Is that full-time? Because they're saving a lot of money in the front end there. That's pretty that's pretty low for a
full-time worker annually. >> I don't know what degree like a pair of professional I don't think I don't know if there's a certification. I don't know enough about >> but I feel like that would be less than minimum wage. >> That's a whole >> Yeah,
>> it's a school I don't know school year so it's not 12 months. So I don't know how in school days I don't know how many hours that actually factors out. But a family plan, I think it was like $31,000 or something.
>> Yeah. Just per year. >> Per year that gets added on to the budget. >> Yeah. So, I think if you're going to keep the engineer line on there, you you really got to make sure you make
the case while you're adding a position and not just outsourcing that task as well. I think if you could add up everything that we've spent on CI last year >> and then say like this this is what it cost us to outsource and then list all of the things that
this engineer could do in addition to the stuff that CI >> over 12 months >> not just during the >> Right. Yeah. No, I definitely >> non-winter season >> think that that could 100% be a year round job if they took on some of the
stuff that TI was doing or all of the stuff. So that's like a monetary case, but it's also the case where all of the commercial properties, industrial are going to end house sleeping, >> right? >> That's a nice thing. >> Yeah. >> Somehow I don't know how to communicate that to the residents. So how do you communicate that so that they think this
is a good thing? Especially >> I I am not as confident that these businesses will do their own housekeeping. >> Yeah. >> But if they don't, then they're paying. >> Yeah. So I, you know, I'm expecting they're going to be paying except for
maybe like the the warehouse where it is new and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's in good shape, >> right? Yeah, the the argument of having it in operating budget and you know the fact
that it can be moved around didn't seem to carry much weight with folks >> payment management >> that's back in I think right >> yes >> not fully right >> that's so 300 and something thousand being proposed
Well, it's a little increase. Yes, >> it's not full restoration, but >> 79. >> All right. Um >> 650 this year. >> Yeah. >> 27. Um I think the other question maybe it's an
inefficiency is the comment like oh if you don't pay what are you going to do about it >> you can't turn off there's nothing you can turn off >> I know but I'll worry about that down
the road leans on the property so some of the account does basically everybody have an account right and basically after 10 years if you don't pay you sell your property do you put a lean on the property that's enterprise fund brings to the table is you have the right to you have the ability to do that
>> and I mean you can what would the interest be for a non-payment could you have a high interest fee for paying late >> I give a $10 late fee I don't know. >> Is there >> interest charges? >> I don't know.
>> But wouldn't you be able to set your own interest rate? >> I don't think so. >> What a sewer do I should know because I'm late right now. >> Yeah. >> Let's see what it says. >> Put a uh Well, if you're late enough, we'll send you a demand notice with a $10 fee.
>> There you go. >> Okay. Right. >> I probably have that. >> No, they haven't got out yet. So, You're good. >> I pay like every second or third but because I go to I try and then it
doesn't let me and then I give up and then I eventually do it. >> Yeah. If somebody doesn't pay sew for the year, we turn it over to the property tax, right? >> Oh, is that a thing? >> Yeah. >> They property tax. Wow.
>> We do that, too. >> Yeah. >> Very good. So our bills are higher much higher than we are. >> Yeah. The minimum is 133. >> Yeah. >> A year. >> I'm better off come September
>> and we're kind of at the mercy of the imi. No. >> Why did you snap your mouth shut >> till it fails? >> Yeah. >> You're going to put it in a new one. >> No, no, no, no. >> All right. So, I'm reading number four
now. Um, two and a half bypass. a rare opportunity. Your words are important. This is an opportunity and this is our job to present it to the town. These are rare opportunities.
>> Have we had an override before? Mhm. And was it approved two years ago? >> Two years ago with school >> $938,136 a counting >> and they didn't use
>> Kathy told me they just >> surplus. Yeah, there was previous administration. Yeah, about 60% of it was turned back. >> Okay. But it passed surplus. Yeah, it passed. And what are we looking for now?
This year we're talking million something million >> hundreds of thousands. >> So it was for the schools. So parents showed up at town meeting and after that voted place emptied out. >> Yeah. >> I think we went from like almost 500
people in there to like less than two and a half. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So it depends on what the overrides for, right? >> All right. >> And what is it? What are we saying it's for this year? >> Everything. >> Everything.
>> Okay. >> Maintain services. >> Even level service will require something. >> Well, everything's more expensive now. >> And then there's a for fire and Yeah. >> Right. >> Health insurance.
>> So, >> all right. So, the two and a half overrides. Everybody understands that. So, how do you get to the the second bullet? It's utility was included. It counts for 50% of the 2 and a half%. >> Yeah. So, he's asking for for instead of
125,000 or 210,000. I can keep it straight like 340,000. So, it's like 250,000. So 2 and a half% of our levy for our budget right is what
number like a thousand or I'm sorry like a million. How much is it? It's like a million. So he's asking for like almost a half. Almost a half between a third and a half. Tell me if I'm wrong. I don't want I don't want to >> if we were to include it in the override
it would >> Yeah. >> be a significant Yeah. I don't know if it have an override. Um, >> so the total tax levy is like $35,000. 2 and a half% of that is 700 some $800,000. He's asking for like4
million dollars increase 30 and 40% increase on budget >> because it's more than just the tax levy isn't >> is the two and a half override just on
the levy or is it on everything? >> That's what I don't know. >> I think it's on a levy >> there. There was a budget >> that I looked at and actually calculated the >> Oh, so here I can do it. Yeah, I can >> there's a one of one of the spreadsheets
has what the override is. >> Um, sorry, the two and a half contribution is so this over two and a half2. Okay. >> 2 and a2 is 025. >> Yep. >> Yes. It's just the 11 minute.
>> Yep. >> So, what is the percentage what he's asking for? >> So, it's 50. >> Okay. So, I didn't >> Is that right? 50%. >> I kind of hemmed and hot on that number and I ended up going to 50 because I didn't want to sell short, but I don't
want to scare people either. I don't want to >> because that is scary. >> It is. like you have the override go to bill you feel special goes to just one line >> which is only like 3% of the budget that doesn't make sense
>> yeah either over >> sounds too high but I can't get enough right now >> 30% make more sense but it's >> it would starve the all the other everybody wants their 2 and 12% increase
and I don't blame them. So I don't know how you can justify giving one tiny little line item in the budget that much of the over >> that that cuz I'm looking at the FY26 levy limit 32.9 million 2.5% increase is 822,000.
>> Yeah. So three it's about >> 50 >> almost. Yeah. >> I know. I mean there's other thing there's other revenue sources that go up at build dark allowable lucky that's made it grow. Yeah. I don't know
this something's making me head hurt. Okay. What's five? Oh, this one's an easy one to answer. Greg Roy brought that up and I agree with >> Yeah. >> And bakery process should be uh,
>> you know, I like 50, you know, but I'm not I'm just one person. Um, you know, >> I think that's for the stormwater commission to figure out sewer/storm water. the water com.
So there would be an abatement form, right? And I'm assuming would that just be the only requirement is to give us an ONM plan and some some verification that you're actually executing it or would there be more to it than that? like report for bigger ones like a report from
>> your cousin or something >> some sort of third party or >> which right >> that's >> and has to be submitted by that I mean kind of like the tax abatement process >> yeah we have to see that plan too >> I like the idea that the month of June
is the abatement month and we're going to go out and do speculation Yeah, because it'll be tied to the fiscal year, not calendar year. Right. >> Right. >> Requirements. No one knows. >> Yeah, nobody knows. This is subjective.
This is really a tough one to wire you over. I view this as every time someone brings up that argument, I view it as kicking the can down the road another year. And this is the third year I'm on this storm water and it's been the same mantra over and over again. We need funding and kicking the can down the road another
year is just, you know, it is what it is. >> How long has the task force existed? >> Is it three years been on since the beginning? >> Yeah. Longer. Yeah. It's been established for a lot longer than three years. Yeah, since before I came to the planning board. So, at least four.
>> Okay. >> More than that. >> Yeah. >> Or double that. >> And it's never gone to town meeting before. >> Okay. >> No, it's never gotten this far. >> Yeah. >> What always happens? It just no one wants to deal with it. It just kind of gets pushed.
>> Probably. That's probably That's part of it. Yeah. >> Change over. It looked like >> maybe >> I think the original people were pushing towards it, but it didn't go anywhere and then it kind of went flat.
>> Has it consistently met that whole time or would it >> magazine like four months last year? >> Very faithful. >> I missed Yeah. I got sick one year another one. Yeah. No, but when >> when I joined the planning board, I went
to one meeting and then they just kind of stopped for I think like a year until you >> like somebody left in August or something and it just the chair left and there was no one
last summer, last fall, >> there was stuff. >> I was here last I've been here >> consistently since December 2023. I've been here for almost two years now. >> See, April. April. Maybe it's longer. >> No, I thought Yeah,
I'm finishing the third year. So 23. >> Summer of 23. Maybe it happened. >> Okay. Does that make sense? That would have been my first year then. >> Yeah. You were here. Yeah. >> You know, when I came on, there was one person who wasn't showing it up.
>> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. And then yeah, no this was Yeah, it was summer of 23 because that's when I started. Yeah, >> summer. Well, that stopped for a period.
>> Did it start back up when we flooded and the whole time we got 11 inches of rain? >> No. >> Then people started caring about storm water that >> would have been a really good time >> to push forward. Oh, wow. All right.
>> That's almost five years right there. Is that the first one? >> I don't know. >> Wow. >> 2021. >> Yeah, maybe that's it. >> Public outreach. Public. >> We're doing it. What? 960. Massav. Is
that redder? >> Yeah. That's where they used the >> say who was the chair in >> it doesn't say >> other minutes we have a minute oh that's that's the other place the one right oh got to go to agendas on minute Yeah.
Any of you more? Yeah. >> I know. I think 2016 is just as far back as >> Oh my god. >> Holy moly. >> Oh my god. >> Okay, go to the beginning. >> Those poor souls. >> So there there may even be 2015, >> I think. Jack Rabbit was on this way
back then. >> 10 years. >> Yeah, >> they've been luck. There you go. Yep. >> All right. Well, 10 years. This is the year. >> Oh my god. >> We're over 10 years later right now. >> Birthday. >> What do they What do they look at?
Election of officers held the second Wednesday of each month. Possibly one more meeting each month. Next meeting scheduled for February 10th. Okay. >> Yeah.
>> So, this has been a long time in the making. >> 10 years is the lucky there. >> They met twice that year, that month. >> Yeah. >> They were serious. If you go to YouTube video of Phyllis
Luck with this diarama of a town and she's spraying it for like five minutes, creating those little trickles. Really? >> Yeah. You all these little waste products kind of giving me little trippers to the streams and >> it's really cute.
>> Okay. >> We talked about this. I'm shocked that it's doesn't make a difference. 2500 yards. Wow. I can't believe it. It doesn't make a difference. >> Well, yeah. I would I'm sure you'd pick up more. >> Yeah,
>> that's what we were putting down saying it would be more obvious. >> 145 >> 20 yard truckload stencil. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. A lot to dispose of. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Where does it go? >> We can dump it in the landfill and throw
it. >> Okay. >> What do we use now rather than sand? >> Salt. Okay. And that's better like ecologically or is it the same but >> different issues? >> Yeah. >> Jury said that they're going to start
monitoring chlorine in the lakes. >> Oh, and salts is chlorinated. >> Yeah. And then most of it is >> N. Or is it magnesium chloride or is it >> just goes down when it snows? Everybody stay
home. Well, they'll stay home tomorrow, >> right? So, yeah. Why do the BR is supposed to have a winter operations plan to cut down on the amount of salt? So, in my capital presentations, I have
um >> well, a new salt bar because this one's falling apart. But part of that would be to get liquid chemicals so we can pre-treat and put saddle tanks on the trucks and then treat the salt as it's coming out.
>> You'll end up using less salt because it'll work better. >> How do you treat the salt as it comes out? >> You spray it with the liquids. >> We have on the state we use magnesium chloride. They'll have extra tanks that'll spray some on the salt as it goes down onto the road.
>> Right. Right. as it's falling on >> the conveyor belt. This >> just got some salt from Home Depot and was a combination of sodium chloride and magnesium chloride. >> Right. >> They say it dissolves more ice per pound. >> Exactly. >> And it'll lower it to a lower temperature. >> Right. >> Okay.
>> That was part of the problem this year. It was so sticking cold. >> Yeah. You couldn't lower the >> sitting right there. Yeah. >> There it doesn't work. >> Plus wetting it activates the salt so it'll work better. So it's when it's
really cold and it lowers the freezing temperature, right? So and like you say, one pound of cell will dissolve more ice, you know, if it's treated than just regular salt. >> Okay.
>> So you end up using less salt. >> Okay. >> The salt is a bigger expense than the plowing. >> It's almost equal. >> Oh, really? I thought salt costs more, but like we want to get snow, not ice in terms of budget.
>> Yeah, true. >> All right. So, this is this is moot, >> right? Thing I did was the newer trucks that I bought, I bought different controllers >> for the the conveyor belts and you can control it a lot better. You know how much is coming out, right? So, the new
trucks, they're using a lot less than the old trucks. Okay. >> Getting the job done. >> Every once in a while I come to an area of the road where there's literally salt caked out. >> Yeah. >> Oh, how's your guy in the the British street?
>> Okay. >> Yeah, >> he's all he was all banged up. He still hurt a little bit, but >> was that a Lunenburgg? >> Mhm. >> Oh, I thought it was Lemonster for some reason. >> Well, I drove on there. I think I saw where he went off. It's like right
before right after >> the inter the four-way intersection there by um Stillman's just up the road on the right near the swap. >> Did he hit an ice patch or something? >> Yeah. Yeah. He kind of slid off the road and when he hit the edge the truck's
topheavy just pulling right over. >> Yeah. Wow. >> You can see it next door. >> Oh, okay. There were pictures on Facebook police. >> Well, yeah. laying on it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> We have it up. >> Yay. >> Waiting to see. >> You won't be using that tomorrow. >> Yeah. Waiting to see how much money they give us for it. >> All right. So, this is this is a good one for discussion.
I think I like the Walmart case. They would never come here if we didn't have a good town. And that includes everything, not just police and fire, but also infrastructure. And it it shouldn't shock the facility manager there, the property manager that he needs money for. We need money for
storm water. >> Yeah. Somebody like Walmart won't be surprised because it's happening all over the country, right? >> Yeah. So I can see Walmart just like since they have Walmart in Lister just that being you just going nope we're done
here we've got the super Walmart over in Lister Semag it's got to be mindful >> I don't know there >> I can't say I'd be sad but >> I I wouldn't be sad to see them go. But
I mean, as a source of revenue for the town, >> is that a lot of >> the property owner is still going to pay taxes? >> The property owner is still going to Walmart paying taxes on an empty building. >> Yeah. So, >> yeah, London has a long way to go to go to Walmart.
>> Walmart doesn't care. 25minut drive. >> Remember, they're one of the biggest corporations in the world. So, >> yeah, they do cost. I think it's crazy that there's one in Lemonster and >> yeah, >> one in Lunberg because I mean I I came
from Framingham and there was one there, but then there wasn't another one for >> I don't know, maybe North, which is pretty far. That's because none of the towns around there probably would let them in, >> right? Well, yeah, but I it kind of feel
it doesn't I'm I was surprised that Lunenburgg has one. It doesn't. It's >> two within 20 minutes of my house. >> Yeah. I mean, technically, you've got Lunberg, you got one, and then you've got one in what is it? Ash,
>> I think is there one in Gardener? >> There's like 10 minutes to my house. >> Yeah, >> there's one up up by Jaffrey. Cuz I've gone camping up there and go, "Oh, there's a Walmart right here." Yeah. Range, I think. Yeah. >> Yes, we talked about this one. So Rhonda
kind of like piqued my curiosity. I had to think about it a little bit. It's not a lot of money and really only 10% of the people it automize. We used my wife and I used it only on rental property but we gave that up. Now we use the standard deduction. We love it. So this one is subjective too.
I don't know if this is true, what the town's responsibilities are. Just threw my thoughts on paper and tell me if I'm wrong. Well, but the first one I mean we're only asking money for maintenance that this is projects. >> I know >> we'll get that at all.
>> Right brought it up at the select board, >> right? I mean, >> but he's thinking about life cycle costs because that's done. It's just deerties, right? So, I think he was saying, do we have to pay storm water fees in addition to all this engineering work that we do to survey these properties and install
these manage BMPs? And the answer is yeah, >> it's what you do. The storm water management that they're doing on those properties too is also it helps them. >> Yeah. >> Too though. It's not >> Yeah. >> You know, a place that's prepared for
storm water is always going to be better. >> You know, if you build a house now, you have to do >> storm water management like you have to do like the drain around the perimeter and are the outside the French drain. >> Yeah. Like Ramson 10 $15,000 in landscaping just to do just to do
drainage and storm water mitigation. Yeah. >> Yeah. It was a job change and we had to renovate our base with $35,000. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> we had to do ours when we moved here because we flooded the day that we moved here. >> We moved here the day of the of the rate. So, our basement flooded.
>> Yeah. >> When we moved here. >> Yeah. So, is is Manard's property is that town water that's getting onto his property or is it >> combination? Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, is it something the town really >> It's better now. >> Oh, it's better now. coming off of other
properties running down the street and >> running down his driveway >> and runs down his driveway >> and part of it was >> Yeah. >> that pipe that had the utility pull go through it. >> That was part of the problem. >> That was so so >> And then also that wasn't maintained. >> Yeah. Right.
>> Right. >> Well, wasn't >> very kindly helped him fix helped them fix. >> We gave them our money. >> Right. >> Yeah. He keeps complaining about how much money they had to invest in the property to keep I don't think he's come anywhere close to this like what we're
paying. >> So the first what's the first bullet under town responsibilities? >> This is yeah this is me just brainstorming. I don't know if it's accurate or not. I'm just saying you know if you build a new property don't be surprised if you have to have a store management plan. When when we when we on
25 Williams Drive all the Williams built that was Williams Drive a good good road by the way any problems with it? >> No. >> You know when they put it in when I moved in in '89 88 that's 26 36 38 years old and it's still in great shape.
>> Well must have been repaved because we >> Has it been repaved? >> It had to have been. >> Are you sure? >> Yeah cuz I put the fog signal on it two years ago. Right. >> Okay. I wanted a fog sail that if it was in old dark road. >> Okay. But every time I walk my dog up
there and it's got nice storm water system, it's working. It's keeping the foundation dry and it has a stable road. So that's done right. So yeah, if you do it right up front, you got a nice solid dry property that's
stable and you don't have any issues. The bottom of our driveway in Williams Drive never was wet because it was the bottom of the hill and it always crumbled and fell apart. I mean, there's nothing we could do about it. >> Yeah. For a while since there was >> Yeah, it sits there. Yeah. It's at the low spot. So, you know, Bill Proctor
when he was around, he gave us $10,000 quote in like 92 or something like that to do derange to the driveway. No way. >> I couldn't afford that back then. You just lived on a crappy driveway. >> No, but what's the bullet about the town
um collaborating with neighboring towns? >> The >> I'm saying neighbor. So, this is a resident and you have a property which is town property. That's what I meant to say. So if you have an if the if your if the neighboring property happens to belong to town of Lunberg then it should
be town of Lunberg's job to make sure that it doesn't discharge us. >> Oh it's the same I'm thinking neighboring it's neighboring properties. Okay. >> Yeah. I miss Yeah. >> Okay. >> It's not it's not clear.
>> So yeah that's my understanding of how this works. And if I'm wrong let me know. Oh, now I see. Yeah, I get it. >> So, I'm thinking I was kind of hoping that when we have the public discussion, this is going to be the subject matter that comes up. And I think if we're all
kind of like connected and on the same page, it'll be nice. Is J is Jesice is going to present. You know, I'm all for it. She's really good at speaking >> and um she's very knowledgeable. >> Well, we can we can certainly back her
up on any of these topics if um the subject comes up and she's looking for us to back her up. >> I think I think we should send these your slides to Jurice because I think that the questions you listed >> Yeah. >> I expect are going to overlap, but she
might not have all of them. So, >> yeah. and tell her we collaborated on these more or less in agreement. >> And like the pie chart on slide 13 I think is that in combination with the table on slide 15
comparing the costs you know in the budget versus the utility. >> Mhm. I like that chart. >> I think pairing that with the the pie chart >> Yeah. um that message I think is important to
get across and then the ability to do abatements when it's in as a utility. >> So so if income represent centers are there just ask them the question if we cover our expenses what's the issue?
>> So 15,000 per year landscaping that includes that big tall wall. No, that was $40,000. And the problem is we cut into the hill so we could add on. >> Put a second garage bay in there and I'd workshop so I could do woodworking. >> Okay.
>> And what I found out is if you cut into a big hill, the wateres out the side of it. >> Yeah. >> And it forms little trickles and they come form a tributary and then they form a bigger stream >> and it rolls the heck up your property.
So that was just a enormous amount of brainstorming between me and Brett how to solve that problem. It was not fun. But I think we cracked it down. >> Can you send
No, John, this is a lot of work. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Something about >> especially the dirty snow picture. >> It was so easy to find stuff to take a picture of. >> I was shocked. I walked around and just
found all that stuff. It was just like I think >> and you found ash. Think you found some dump ash in the middle of the parking lot >> because of snow. You know, all that crud shows up on everybody knows. >> Yeah. I don't what's on the roads. We
don't put sand. What? What's What do you mean it rains? >> I don't see it as much. >> But in my previous town, there were nips just lying. >> There's a patch just like just down past
my house that is constantly full of people's trash. >> Yeah. >> Nips. And I always have to go. >> I like What are you are you just drinking them in the car and throwing them out of the So >> I have no idea. My road is that people have used it as a
>> quick way to get up to the country mile in up in New Hampshire, >> which is a liquor store, cigarettes, >> right? So, every week I have to go out and clean up nips, bottles, and cans,
takeout bags. >> Yeah. Like >> I mean out the window. Like what is going through your head? >> You don't care. >> I don't can't get caught with it in your car. >> You have it when it's full. I guess you
drink it. But like I just think we should get rid of nips entirely, but that's a whole lot. >> But anything, trash, anything. I mean, >> I have >> like I know what happens recycling bins. Trash gets, you know, animals will get into it. It gets wind windy days blow around. It's great when
>> not that. Yeah. No. >> So, I'm right on the Lunberg towns in line. >> Mhm. >> Like literally my house is and the paving you can tell the difference between the two towns >> like where the the paving ends for one town and one and which one is out of maintenance and stuff. So, I always end
up with potholes in the middle and I end up with heat shields at least once or once every 3 months or once every two months. the heat shield from underneath the car. Someone will hit someone will hit the
pothole and their heat shield will just fall off and then it >> then the rain water comes and it's like Bill said, it's all flat. It just washes up on the side of my front yard. >> You should call the DPW director bottom. >> Yeah. >> Well, it's funny when it comes when it
when it's a pothole that's on the town line and the both show. I've had both teams show up and they're like, "You fill it. You fill it." They really just stand out there in chat the whole time. They're >> crazy. >> So when you send that to Theres, >> you're gonna basically say, "Please
forward your presentation to us so we can see it in advance of the presentation." >> So the flyers, please. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Can I have one? You have a spare. >> So, are they both going to go out or >> We have to share. >> Well, I guess we got to talk about >> Oh, this is the thing that you emailed
earlier. Oh, it looked like I thought it was a flyer and then like an FAQ >> sheet like this is the flyer that goes out to advertise to people. This is the one that we have at the >> uh thing. >> Um we have this listed as seven. Should
we tell the >> Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. That needs to be adjusted to 7:15. Oh, it's 7:15. >> The the other group gets done at 7. >> Okay. >> Um, so like I assume there's going to need to be some like breakdown and setup
time. >> Are we going to have a Zoom? >> Yes. >> And we got uh somebody for >> Oh, yeah. That's It's a Thursday, right? March 5th. >> I don't know.
>> I just said it wrong. Says Thursday. Yeah, Thursday. >> Cara's needs to be Thursday. >> Yeah, Thursday and 7:15. >> Okay. >> Um, >> and then should we should we >> put it on time or do we want to?
>> Oh god, I would like to >> maybe say like 8:30. I feel like an hour seems very >> Yeah, >> I think 7:15 to 8:30. >> I would say if we're going to try to convince people we should actually give them our time. Yeah. Well,
>> maybe not all of our >> I mean, I sit on conservation sometimes till 11. I can >> And there should be res. >> What's the format going to be? Is it going to be like a full game people walk up to it or is it going to be like a free-for-all? >> Well, it says it's information only. It's
>> Oh, we're not going to answer questions about big question. >> I think we need to >> It's crazy. Well, I think information Well, that can be changed, but I think she's meaning we're not like there's no votes or decisions happening. >> Um, and then are we planning another one of these two or is this the only one?
>> Uh, not before this town meeting. >> I'm sure we'll have another one later in the year, but this will be it before town meeting >> because the only article coming forward for this town meeting is the bylaw.
Okay. Right. >> Yeah. Um, do we put the Zoom information on here? >> That would make sense. >> Oh, and it packs going to record it. >> Yeah. Um, see it's not a storm utility, it's storm
water. Yeah, I'm just looking at where he's going to go. Becca social media and I think we should like hang them up at like the adult activity center at the library. >> I don't know. >> Yeah. Is there a place to hang it on
town hall? The board outside where they put the the agendas to let us >> I don't know. Isn't there a board? >> There's a board when you walk in. You walk in and the official board is outside, >> right? Where you post the agendas. I think if there's room she'll let us
outside. the smoke stack lettuce. >> They have all kinds of stuff there. >> Okay. No, let me maybe not. Hard to ask. >> I mean, smoke stack. >> I might go to Smoke Stack.
>> That again. >> Smoke Stack has hosted town events before, so I don't think that he had like master plan. Yeah. Um, Walmart, >> there are places in the charter where we
have to post the warrant like weird like Whom variety like weird places you wouldn't think. Is it just like places that are in downtown or >> I don't know. >> They be dependent on the business owner allowing >> Jack's convenience or something like that or
>> I'd have to look in the charter. I forget >> what's what's honey. >> Do all of those places agree to that? >> I guess I must have at some point. >> Let me see cuz construction or lumber yard and stuff.
>> Let me see if I can put myself >> same places you can get trash bags at. >> Oh yeah, I gave up on those and I used the WM or whatever it is. um >> private subscription. >> Yeah.
>> How much you pay? >> 50 bucks a month, but it's two like 96 gallon things >> on here. >> So, should I be saying that on camera? It's just the bags would always break on
me. So, I figured that what I was paying in bags, I'm paying it now. And also, I don't really have a lot of They give you the recycling for free. We have more recycling than trash. It's nice to have all the recycling space that they pick up. I know that Luna Brick takes all the
recycling no matter what, but >> yeah. >> Um, >> so 600 bucks a year. You saying you were spending 600 bucks on bags? >> I think I don't know what did we I don't even remember how much the bags were. We gave up pretty quickly, but they were
breaking. So then we we had to double bag it or we had to put a plastic bag inside a plastic bag and I don't really like plastic bags to begin with. So this is the way like I don't have to use as many plastic bags.
So I just looked up the uh the warrant for all town meetings. So it's based on the four pre precincts. So precinct A is at town hall. Precinct B gets at Wham variety store. Uh, priestin C is pal stone and gravel.
>> D is jacks. So, >> we go >> I don't even know agreed to to >> do posting there. >> Only A through D. Is that the only precinct that we have? >> I don't remember what that is.
>> Um, yeah. A or D? I always forget. I know I'm a or D cuz my dad is one and I'm the other. Um I'm not sure this language is right in car bylaw would create a dedicated there should be storm water utility fund with
the establishment of storm water fees which will be used by the town to support storm water infrastructure water quality improvements compliance with state and federal. We're not doing state. It's only a federal regulation. >> The bylaw >> uh the bylaw is not going to create the
fund. This time the bylaw would create uh a utility. >> Yeah. >> No fund >> and not established establishment of storm water fees.
This whole thing needs to be rewarded. This maybe we can use the word. Um, there's a ton of towns that have some good verbiage on their website, too. Maybe we could steal a fair amount. I don't think they're right.
>> Overview of the proposed. So, what will the session go over? Overview of proposed bylaw, how storm water fees are structured, billing credits, timeline, and next steps. >> Are we going to have uh an overview of how the fees are are
structured? Will we have the information? No, I mean I think we can vote if we want to consider the year versus the tier. I mean we can present like these are the things that are being discussed. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Do you think we'll have the GIS data by the next meeting? I know it's
like a week away but >> I don't >> because if we did we might be able to get a tentative because we already have the idea the concepts. >> Yeah. Yeah. But do you want to do it based on the ERU instead?
>> Like run the numbers both ways and see >> what it looks like. >> It's mostly just the commercial properties that would be impacted. >> Yeah. >> We could say the single family homes, which I I imagine most of the people coming >> Yeah. >> are going to be homeowners.
>> Yeah. >> Having that as a flat fee and just like this is how we're setting the we have a target. We're trying to come up with a fee structure that meets that target. >> Yeah. Um, so I don't Yeah, this I'm not sure is
right. >> Is there better ones? I would just give this to her and let her kind of to Jarice. >> No, give this to Cara. >> Cara and kind of let her pick the most important things. >> Understand?
>> Like I haven't explained it to her. Have you >> rewarded? >> Okay. Said it to her >> between the two. >> Yeah. >> Come up with something. >> Yeah. I mean, I think >> do it quick though because this is the one we want to put this one up right in
town. >> And I like car to look at >> as opposed to Yeah. >> Yeah. This one is more >> That's too long to >> eye catching. This one is more like once somebody is there, we'll hand this out, right? Mhm.
And add the Zoom info to somewhere. She'll have to squeeze that in. >> The water district building. Would that be included in they get a bill? >> Yes. Not town separate from Ter. >> They got a lot of improve area. >> Yeah, they do. There's this
>> water district. Wait, are they would they would the would they have the fee? Is that their private entity? >> Not. Yeah, they are not part of the town. >> Yeah, if their if their code is 9 something something something, then they're exempt. Otherwise,
>> I don't know what the code is, but it's not a town. It's not like, you know, this building is exempt. That's obviously >> What is their address? Lunberg border district. Massive something.
>> 496 mass. >> Sure. >> Um, >> do you want to >> Yeah, I'll take a GRA out of >> Thursday 7:15 8:30. >> Yeah. Can I end the notes? I didn't write anything down. Yeah, these these
are just >> and for the Zoom, tell people where they can go to find the Zoom >> that put the Zoom on there, right? Unless that's also going to be posted online and >> it'll go on the town socials. >> Okay. >> And on the town website, right? Like the the
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> news, you know, whatever this page, right? Um, >> well, I think we should put one out and then write >> their code 971. Put the other one.
>> It says what it is. Put this one in there. See, like what the code means. >> 9711. So, it's municipal. Darn. >> Is it really? >> Yeah, >> it's municipal. It's not town though. >> 711 tax exempt. That's as I understand it. Well, tax exempt doesn't necessarily
mean it means utility authority. >> We are charging churches, right? >> Well, yeah. >> So, >> so that's taxes too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. All right. You're right. >> Yeah. >> All right. If you think it was if it's
legal utility authority >> doesn't it's like UNIL. >> Yeah. Congratul >> Yeah, we should. >> All right. >> This is too late nights in a row for me.
>> Are we going to leave the >> What's that? Are we going to leave Teresa's as is or use it as a secondary and we can talk about it next week and get Caras out now? >> Yes, that seemed the best. >> You think?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, I think we should get this one out first. Yeah. And then later >> because like we just want people to know about what's happening. This is this is
>> I mean I'm announcing it, you know, but it it sad thing is if it's not on Facebook, I don't know this. >> What's up? When's our next meeting? >> Uh next Tuesday of the 24th
and then info session March 5th and then town meeting what? March 16th. >> Okay. >> Oh, town meeting is March 16th. >> No, that's when the work >> Oh, no. Yeah, sorry. Sorry. Yeah. >> Okay. >> I was like my my brain just weren't clos.
>> Yeah, we just need the the bylaw finalized. >> So, we're Tuesday the 24th. >> Yeah. >> Okay. That meeting's geared towards making sure we got everything where we want it for the public hearing or public
meeting. >> Dice will be at that one. I think remote, right? I'll be remote >> at the 24th. >> Okay. Yeah, I think she might be by Zoom, too. Unless anybody has anything else they'd
like to address, I'll accept uh we want to minutes. Oh, we have minutes. Yeah, >> January 8th and January 29th. I made a motion to approve the minutes from January, what was the 28th and 29th?
>> 28th and 29th. >> Oh, the 8th and 29th. >> Yeah. >> Wait, did we approve the 29th? >> Well, that's what we're doing now, right? >> Oh, ETH and I thought you said just the ETH. >> No. Okay. >> On the agenda, we have the eight >> and the 29th
>> and the 29th. >> Okay. Motion to approve minutes for >> January 8th. >> Second. >> Moved and seconded. All in favor? >> I is being adjourned right now.
>> All right. Um I will >> very slow >> accept a motion to adjourn the meeting. >> Motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> Moved and seconded. All in favor? Hi. >> Hi. >> See, they have a session on Monday for the fourth shift.
>> Fourth shift fire. >> Yes. >> I'm out of town. >> What does that mean? Having like instead of 38s, having fourth shift. So they go to a 42-hour work
>> and they'll have it will be called in on I I forget schedule of days but it's 4 goes from 48 hour to a 42h hour. >> Okay, that's good. >> And they'll have the weekends and covers.
>> Okay. I like it when our slippers riders get to sleep normal