all right see if I can get the There it is all right thank you everyone for being here at the Thursday April the 24th stormwater task force meeting um we are operating out of the Luna
DPW 520 Chase if you happen to have public comment you would like to provide but I don't see any public in the Zoom so nothing there um all
right uh does anybody have anything they want to address or any announcements before we get into the meeting itself all right um I'm going to rearrange these just slightly um we'll start with the Springtown meeting slide deck uh
since that has to be turned in tomorrow really yes why that's when they want it okay um this what is Saturday oh my
god may yeah it has been like less than a week i gave it uh personally I gave it a quick look over um I liked it i didn't go super into depth on it um it seemed like it hit most of the points that we
were talking about um you want to go slide by slide yeah sure let's do it all right first one just explains what storm water is
right then why do we need to manage storm water you haven't seen it right John tell me when you're ready explanation of the MS4 permit since it came up in the last slide right
yep okay further explanation of MS4 do you actually define the MS4 acronym anymore what is that there's MS4 is an acronym right here this slide oh yep this slide
doesn't get into the requirements of the permit then how do we pay for all this work i just have a thought on MS4 on slide three you mentioned you know there are fines for non-compliance mhm can you site any finds other towns like a range
of fines make it put a dollar there we can try to do Google search i don't know we haven't we've never been find right no they had some kind of training and they talked about that and there was one town
or city did get fine but they were fighting the requirements of the permit you know if you're trying to comply they're not going to find there are fines schedule that you can say you know so fines we're not just talking like parking tickets kind of fine now we're talking thousands of dollars I think
right potential yeah let me It might just see if I can look at it have an [Music] impact people the understanding that either you're paying to make the program work or you're paying to cover the funds i mean there's you don't want Yeah i
mean there's a reason that you know to clean up not have sto there's the environmental kind of motivation but there's also and one some people may value the other there's going to be a lot of financial
stuff there's no like set schedule it's just an arbitrary you're bad you're very bad then they just decide on the right file it's in the permit
somewhere which file where it is somewhere else yeah too many files [Music] what comes up when I Google is finds for businesses that are not complying
with storm water from Virginia well do you want to know the AI overview in Massachusetts MS4 violations can result in fines ranging from $100 to
$25,000 per day of violation some towns like RAM may start with a $100 fine for a first offense while others like Dudley have a $300 fine per offense with each day a violation constituting separate offenses
but I think that those are the what the town is putting on people not what the which is weird because at this point the towns don't put it on an individual i don't think they can so I think it doesn't that's
what I was reading i'm like this doesn't make sense to me that that doesn't make sense yeah right everything you see the mass never know barely helpful go there was this site helpful
no no it wasn't anyway is it does it p up daily is it that kind of Yeah yep up quick [Music]
oh here's the the random document is that them being I don't know i just see what and imprisonment all right we don't want Bill to go to prison i think it's select board ghost select
board oh we really don't want for another year anyway yeah it does say any person who violates provision of this bylaw i think that it's the there's they keep calling it the small MS4 permit and I think maybe
that's where like SWIPS comes but the SWPPs come from where the clean water act is what I'm gathering here i think it's different than what happens to the
actual family it's a really long one document this says Massachusetts MS4 general permit requirements prepared for rain so okay so that's a general permit i think that's different than the small so you think this is that might be the one that
you're looking for well this that's what I was just looking at yeah oh and it said the individuals i don't Here's this is that slump SWMP no that's not the storm water management plan I always have seen it as a storm
water pollution prevention plan i don't see that one here how old is that 2019 oh I wonder is that prepared for a company and presented
comment yeah prepare for random by environmental partners okay anyway it's not a big deal if you can't find it but if it it's like you know you can from you know $500 to
10,000 and it's daily that's Yeah it was but it's for the whole EPA website you can do control F on the page it's a web page oh they should still
find it on the on that display does that give you the option to search from the page yeah just do control F nothing nothing no way oh here's a small NS4 authorization in the table of contents okay that fits
into everything else i don't know so what I've been reading it seems like general is a town and then small are the business or the individuals but then I read something else that that seems to contradict that here's San Diego being
fined so I found something okay right class one penalty class two penalty oh 11,000 per day for class two not they're both
well one is 11,000 per violation not to exceed 329 wow not to exceed 157,500 is there anything below that or is it just those two that's it the difference between class one and class two penalty oh class one penalty class two what's
the difference oh good question sounds worse you have to go civil penalties let's see where it sites um somewhere in the in the statute there's criminal penalties there's more there's a whole
bunch of stuff so who enforces that epa they send a EPA agent in with a badge you're in your store drinks see you later
there's too many acronyms yeah so depending on the violation could get pretty big yeah and some of them are fine daily yeah and imprisonment on this one
well you think that's can be a pretty gross violation yeah yeah right dumping toxic waste into the fresh water or something like that knowing violation 5,000 to 50,000 per day
i wonder what constitutes Yeah a violation though i mean look how many left water that's too many to look at but we are talking thousands could be talking five
digits yeah five digit fines per day so you want to add that in I don't know some maybe some kind of range i would reference the document that that clearly defines all the penalties and fines and there are there are substantial you want
to keep it simper the document and say there are substantial fines and penalties no one's gonna look at the Yeah yeah is that your Is that your What was that document
oh that was right off the EPA's website oh okay yeah what's the What's the What's the end of it what's the Oops hang on [Music] appendix B of the permit ms4 general permit appendix B
standard ms4 general permit appendix B and just say what I mean you you can just say that the the fines are substantial could be you know double digit thou tens of thousands of dollars that could be fine deal you don't have to put it on the slide you can just say it
um what was the name of the document and the MS4 yeah well the it starts off MS4 permit Right so yeah I think you can leave if you just speak to it just
to significant we're not just talking a trivial but they have potential to be very significant that's the next question who's giving this presentation you are me is i thought you said the word i can yeah I thought I thought I was you do it i think we have it on on
tape though but you probably do show hands which one of us is getting paid right now no I saw I paid right now i'm not um Okay i'm on hour 45 or so of this week and I only got paid for 40
i hope so okay so we'll just leave it as is where are we requirements how is it paid for i can go back to it oops capital funds used for equipment is
where's the chapter 90 stuff does that is that part of the operational budget uh we can add probably should add that in yeah i I'm in a fair amount of people want to know how much money is in your budget today and how much money do you
want in your in your utility and what's the delta because they're going to say well pay for that it's increase their taxes i'm sure most people call them chapter 95 they might explain that
well can you speak to exactly what needs to be done in order to do that we do we need to do fund requirements it does include like inspecting all the Don't you have to survey all the the drainage
right so that would be you don't have funding to do that right you right say it again so you you only surveyed like a third of all of the right on the storm water drains right mhm so that's something you know which part of that is
u we could probably if we wanted this slide why are we not meeting requirements that could potentially go on that slide like saying the we don't have the funds available to do you know I had
something else didn't I the degree of inspections that were required to Need something else just seat no center shoot and that's where I have [Music]
Lexington is a nice site on their storm utility other places december 2022 yeah 20 Massachusetts towns yeah i feel like there's there yeah franklin has one yeah
this is and now has one i think Lexington must have approved this as part of their presentation maybe they have that i had some of the uh requirements like the the sweeping and the catchbasing cleaning and that kind of stuff i had it
in a file somewhere why did I talk about that i can't remember that's nice information it's kind of nebulous right now we have to meet these requirements but you know family knows exactly what it is to do when you say street sweeping and serveing and storm
water draining systems and cleaning them out on a regular basis right monitoring them having a system or a process for that where is it it's in the permit let me see if I can find it again [Music]
yes yes yes operation the maintenance rates establish a schedule with a goal that the frequency of routine cleaning will ensure that no kitchen basin at any time will be more than 50% full right
um right we have to keep a log of what we clean which we do have to report it which we do so it's not just going around and cleaning it but you have to do it in a prescribed manner to report it in a manner
right so we can add that and then the [Music] sweeping all streets with the exception of rural uncurbed roads with no catch basins swept once per year so we got some exceptions lots of
exceptions yeah so this piece right here is a requirement targeted sweeping plan which basically what we all we can do at the moment okay so there's a thereab procedures for winter road
maintenance salt and stuff i we have a maintenance plan but we could be shouldn't be doing more on all of these right the inspections of all the storm water
BMPs which we have to hire out to do right we use the consultant to help us with reporting okay so are you gonna fill in the gaps like in your charts with all this information off the top of your head or you No pencil some of this in right in
all right okay a lot of times these are charts that basically powerpoints have to present it's like three minutes per chart that's the rule of thumb they have 20 charts that hold an hour you got it so it's a 45m minute
presentation according to that rule of thumb ah I'm going fast there won't be every three minutes okay okay there's just going to be a lot of enormous amount of detail that's just going to be missing but maybe that's the right thing to do
this is something we need to do and [Music] something come all right so to put a little bit in there make sure etc yada yada yada okay but there's more to storm water
than just the MS departments you also have to respond to emergencies and tone is that in there someplace no but that's going to be part of the at the utility fund right just respond to that
right so it'd be nice to get in there someplace that's all yeah the fact that you have an open door policy for residents to come and complain about storm water in the community most of them know that already yeah but not everybody
[Music] a lot of people are shy and they don't know they can take advantage of the services the town provides so maybe here just instead of etc emergencies or something um is it part of the requirements or is that something separate it's part of your normal budget
yeah it's more more of a budget yeah so I can't help but feel like you're selling yourself short by saying you're just trying to meet these requirements but the scope of your of your what you're task to do your projects are as much let's see where can we squeeze it in i don't know day-to-day storm water
operations something like that uh yeah that that would be like on a separate bullet though it's not like a sub bullet under like this stuff um you push that to the left higher level
see if I can over a little bit yeah can you you should be able to push that to the left by the way you see if you go up to the top there's like a Well try shift tab that's That's it no up shift down if that does it it'll mean
press there it is okay good okay spend a lot of time Excel presentations i would throw emergency in there too because you have to respond to emergencies how's that much better okay
okay so no one's very about how much it's going to cost how much cost get but I think we we need to be a little Yeah so start by explaining what a utility is right yep
and then the next slide is cost for homeowners okay i think we should say less than 100 okay annual cost well I mean our goal for homeowners is six was it 60 it was 60 it was I don't want to put it in writing now
so 75 i don't want to commit was 75 i would just say less than 100 i don't know i I'm nervous about putting it a fixed which tier I just lost it yeah tier two would
have been 75 but a year from now what do you think your expenses are going to be like you know we don't [Music] know we probably got to start small and work our way up chewing on this and
sleeping on it the only thing that I'm going to feel bad about is sticking it to three businesses i can't help but feel like maybe you know how we put everybody at tier one and we put them in tier four maybe it's wiser to kind of like pull them back a little bit maybe don't even
break out homeowners and businesses just you know there will be a fee because we I don't want to commit to anything now I like the idea of saying that there were four tier structure four tier there are four tiers of fees recommended by CI and we're
choosing tier two or something that no I don't think we got that too much information I at this point keep it keep it 30,000 foot view like this is supposed to just This is coming so just take out 75 just say an annual fee will
be charged and then a shared cost system for businesses quarterly facilities yeah did you just say semiannual fee yeah annual quarterly no they'll be built quarterly right you're
you're totally an I would say an annual cost okay right cuz and it would be full quarterly i mean it's still a work in progress so currently working on a tiered um
cost system um 2 we just drop the 200 to 10,000 per year everything else in that one's fine and then we just figure out how to rewrite oh can actually it's hiding can
can you move the uh the font itself pop up why is it doing that based on the amount of impervious area each business has ranging from approximately 200 to 10,000 per year okay so that's the cost system is got it
is being developed for both homeowners and businesses well right single family yes technically I guess there's two tiers but one is multif family yeah for residences so for residences and businesses working out a cost a tiered
cost system that will be build quarterly the goal is to have an annual cost for homeowners or for residents of less than whatever 60 per year is tier
one 75 per year is tier two 90 tier three 100 tier four but we haven't settled on numbers or we've been with the tiers um I think it's nice to throw a preliminary number out there it's not
gonna if it comes in at 76 y I guarantee you people will go to this every penny there is people are being asked for a lot of money this year or to decide about a lot of money and next year is going to be more
so just my thought if we leave it out somebody's going to ask the question that's why I'm like you know we're looking at a tiered system and looking I don't think so an annual fee less than $100 i mean at this point yeah we we don't have cost officially
that information for them no I think it's fair to give you know we're not it's not like you know you're not going to be build at the same rate as your property tax you're not going to be paying like you pay UNIL it's not
going to be that big of of a bill it's really big i don't no but I'm just saying I'm okay of leaving it there it's not carved in stone we don't have to commit to it i think if it's in writing just to give them We're creating trouble for ourselves down the road if we if we are
too specific i mean if it comes in well put the word estimated or projected a annual fee of less projected annual fee or expected or estimated you show it as a quarterly fee and it
looks a little smaller um that would make it look like $15 a quarter yeah that's you could say 20 a quarterly utility of less than 25 would be charged to homeowners it seems more palable i do that yeah it's a it's a small
whatever the I would say project a projected quarterly fee of less than $20 would be charged i mean you could you could just you don't even have to break them out you can just say a tiered cost system is being developed based on amount of
impervious area that's for businesses or it's really for both homeowners are flat rate fee based on a 4200 average size of a single family i don't want to I just don't like
the idea of going to like how much period do you have Tim everybody uses the town roads to get to the market i think it makes sense to break it out because I think you're going to get less questions if you at least have something for homeowners because then they're going to
be like "Is it $2,000?" And this is my opinion going to the Enterprise Fund is wise from the residents perspective because the what we're charging them isn't a heck of a lot more than they're already paying right now for storm water this is just a tiny delta now what we're doing is going to the businesses that
have an enormous amount of runoff that's dirty and we're going to them and saying really guys you need to contribute your fair share so that's my opinion that's why I like that separation of the two well there would still be a separation we say we're working on a tiered cost system one per you know homeowners we're
targeting less than $25 a quarter and businesses will have you know based on their impervious area yeah I I feel like that's more or less what we have called out here at the moment it is it's just a structure of a slide because it puts the tier cost
system like upfront i don't know i just have a different way I make slides because there's like usually there's a title and the title is the point of the slide then there's the text i like that what's the homeowners that's like in your face how can you That's
what they want to know titles yeah okay that's good so this Yeah so that's perfect get home to the draft it gives them a clue it's not so I say put the word projected in there which means says we're not going to commit to it but we're not going to get elected and rejected it through the roof
because that's not the kind of people orderly fee of less than what's the number 20 20 25 okay maybe we have 100 as our turn before okay instead of high you come in
lower based on the amount of purpose area that is paid in rooftop areas each business has range yeah just take off from each i wouldn't be afraid to go down to some businesses are just small like the doughnut shop that's as
small as a small house and they don't have a particularly large um parking area what if we just take off after the parenthesis from each on well potentially but at the same time we would like to indicate to them the
people that like a lot of this money is coming from those places that have large runoff footprints but I think saying that they're looking from 200 to 10,000 tell people that they
are not and I but I would change it to the quarterly cost so it's sure so it's consistent like 50 to 2500 i don't care that it's the 200 that's kind of high because there's going to be real small businesses that really don't
want to do and they're should be paying kind of sort of the home owners pay so make this quarterly tune to match yeah that makes sense i think Yeah want to add a little teeny tiny uh piece
to the charge to the homeowners i can spell that um it's going to be the bill will be included property tax bill do we know that for sure no but we've been talking about that all along but
we still got to work that out with Mary the treasurer i don't even know if Munis can handle it okay i don't need to know where it's coming from i like that i like that a lot because they don't have to pay for a
separate mailing that 25 is going to go to 50 if everybody gets a quarterly bill and they're have people going to hate running on a separate check for the utility okay we're good yeah good day
i want to keep this at a high This is introductory this is high level because there's going to have to be a whole campaign this stops people from like going off deep end saying you're going to charge me $100 a quarter so now it's manageable now they know what where
the ballpark is and how big the ballpark is it ain't free when it's not outrageous you want to finalize the method of building yes there's one other item like that is is there going to be
committee that oversees it to make sure that there isn't somebody gets in charge of the stormwater task force and raises it to the committee on the after our commission yeah so I think CI's next from CI's recommendation is that we
could actually act as like the commission after it is established basically say you can't development you can't have that that's kind of covered on the finalized warrant article okay it's not obvious it's true
but to Rene's point how do do we want to get well I mean if somebody asks then you say that there'll be the development of a a commission to go along with it but if they don't they don't but you could say that the uh oversight
structure is kind of as in a modeled after the weather utilities yeah so yeah putting the word dedicated on the last bullet there good sense of point hey thanks Tim
cherry of the cherry it's kudos yeah put his phone number there in case there may question yeah I can do that i can have my uh town email that's it okay yeah I like it article one
right up front yeah fine get it out of the way just warm everybody up how long is figuring out how to work how long is meeting typically many many
hours all day weekend Saturday i do know these things but we been a long couple week next weekend is that next week it is but yeah man okay that's
Yeah that's sudden i'm not I just haven't been paying attention all right excellent um and you'll submit that to uh Jen tomorrow i will do that wonderful all right
um we don't really have any developments it wasn't worked here most of the time oh they're stealing it here it was working for you yeah usually won't open for me if I'm on the table side i don't think they have their pointer records right on the
server comcast is terrible here well guess what though yeah many days my one drive will not sync and it it tends to come and go so it might work in two minutes
it just went down it's right that it was working for you it was cuz I I pulled up the notice it never and then I went back and it won't load i get this there's a record that they just need to put on the server that
would make it work adam has weird it john you got your wish well that's a good phrase true like that i think she should be the face of our committee um there haven't been any changes for
the C documents or CI documents or anything like that so unless anybody has anything in particular they'd like to address um we can slide through that um has anybody had an opportunity to
review the meeting minutes everything on there look good to me yeah same oh on our DAM committee there's um an app that lets an AI tool or application
generate automated just throw that out there and yeah we tried for the first time last time we met on Monday and uh in March and worked great
just saying zoom has a meeting minutes for free we just can't seem to get it together we have the AI companion yeah I keep meeting somebody using it because we haven't gotten meetings for conservation and we got minutes for six months maybe
the only caveat is you have to review it because it doesn't always get right yeah it's nice it's like already written out for the most part you just have to go through and I think the only odd part is it doesn't start with the beginning of the meeting recording it starts with the beginning
of the call so record non music stuff as well and I tried it I don't know which AI tool it was but it's like board a couple of times and pretty good really from the ones from Zoom i don't know what AI tool they use is
good in my experience springtime meeting outreach oh we want to approve those meetings oh yeah meeting minutes yeah if anybody would like to move to approve second all right uh moved and seconded all in favor i
great um got springtime meeting next weekend outreach we'll be with after we've gone through the springtime meeting um anything particularly new happening with the library storm water BMP just cruising along what did I
report last time did I report we did some test pits uh we hadn't gone to the test pits yet yeah so we did do the test pits uh the initial thought in the field was the um the soils weren't going to work for the initial design but I
haven't heard anything further yet okay that's not good no but there's other things we can do there at the location was it like the plants wouldn't work or I don't think it would drain probably
for what they were proposing so are there other techniques okay yeah so they were going to work on it um I haven't got an redesign you think potentially all right
there we are um unless anybody has anything else to talk about I will accept a motion to adjourn the meeting motion to adjourn second moved and seconded all in favor i i