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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=HCOfv6vm1J0

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really don't like Zoom >> other better. >> Sure. >> All right. Uh good evening everybody. Thank you for joining us today, Thursday, April the 16th um for the stormwater task force

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meeting. Um yeah, this meeting is being recorded and all of that. Uh let's jump right into it. Um, the only person we've got on Zoom is Jenny. Uh, so no public.

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Um, all right, we can jump right into our main topic then. Uh, continuing to analyze and work out our utility program. >> Did we get data and Samson? >> Yes.

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>> Nice. That means I send it to you. >> I got a preview. But yeah, >> impermeable um area data. >> Yeah. >> 700 properties. You >> want to view it real quick? Throw it up there and see what it looks like. >> Yeah. See how do you share now?

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>> You see it, man. I keep changing everything. >> Yeah. Top left. >> Share. There it is. Now it's the last place you look. And there it is. Wow.

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>> Yeah. I didn't do anything with it. >> So So what are the columns? Make it a little bigger so it's easier to read. >> Uh just so I can I spin back up to speed. What was this data for? permeable area for all sediment properties that

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they're going to survey. >> Okay. So, whichever source >> what happened >> to update the 10year-old data. >> Yeah. >> Hello. >> Fresh data. >> What do I do this?

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>> Okay. I don't know what I did and >> I can't seem to get it to come back. I can still see it on the screen. >> Oh, we can't see it yet. That's weird. Huh?

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>> What the hell? >> Oh, did it is your screen extended or so you can't see it on the TV there? >> Your screen sharing is paused. What does that mean? >> There. So, how do you unpause the screen

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sharing? >> Stop sharing. Start over. Maybe >> that usually doesn't. And share button moved again. >> It did. Where the hell is it? >> Now it's gone. >> Oh, we're doing good.

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I don't see it. >> It's none of those. >> Oh, it's in the taskbar now. Yeah. All right. How do I make it bigger? Now >> go to the lower right and there's a scroll bar. You see how there's a little bar is next to 70% of the lower right

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corner. Go click on the plus. Okay. Good. So far, map and parcel ID, location ID, use code, description. >> Yeah. site address, owner, total impermeable area, square feet,

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>> comments. >> Beautiful. >> Uh, I noticed that there are some that don't have any. >> I wonder why. >> Yeah. >> Is it just the use codes for specific properties? Is that everything? And she just populated data.

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>> Looks like it's anything that's not considered a residential parcel. >> So, you see like potentially developable commercial land. all in designated under chapter 61. So, it's it looks like they just say filtered out anything that's straight

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residential. Um maybe single family or multif family, but I'm sure they did like arrive and those >> bigger ones, right? Send it out to everybody. We'll start playing with the data.

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>> I could do that. I have made a casual observation. So I went to the water district meeting the other day and that building is relatively new, right? Within the last 15 years, >> I think so. >> They have nice storm water management on that property and you know the the new

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storage the high the bays that they have on the corner of Thousand Harbor. Do >> they? Yeah. >> Yeah. That has a nice storm water. >> He spent a lot of Yeah. So it seems like any new property since MS4 came out >> has had to >> well since the town put it in the bylaws

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right for the planning >> we disturbance over an acre right >> yeah they have to >> so what year did they do that >> uh before I joined the board so at least four years ago >> four years ago >> at least

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>> okay and so there it just seems to me there's a lot of properties that obviously have paid a lot of attention to landscape tape of the property. So, storm water is not an issue. So, there's a any new property it see my hunch is is going to be a good candidate for an abatement. >> Yeah.

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>> I'm going to say though they're they're forced to do that as part of their building process. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to follow the Owendab. >> So, um because you something nice on a nice new building >> doesn't mean that it's going to be

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properly maintained. I mean that's why the inspection you know for abatement is is a part of it and >> yeah they invested a lot of money in making sure that the the storm water was well managed >> that counts for something. >> Sure. >> So you know some great came in here and

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says well they've invested a lot of money making sure the storm water was well managed and uh and they just they want to get credit for that. I don't blame them. >> Sure. But also there's the other way to look at it is that they invested money in order to get the building built because they had to. And so I would say yes,

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it's not an insignificant amount of money um for you know a lot of these buildings, but you'll still see buildings that have spent a lot of money on storm water infrastructure that were forced to still abandon it, you know, 10 years later. So, it's not it's still

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just because they spend a lot of money on it doesn't mean that they necessarily which is why we definitely inspections are going to be really important >> piece of that. >> Yeah, I disagree. >> There's homes in here. I'm just looking through

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that homes like non textbook condo. Oh, common land. I try to um sort it. >> I put a filter at the top. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know how to add the data? Go to

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Yeah. >> I like the whole row of one. Like if you just click on the one in the top left corner. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. You did it. Okay. >> And if you filtered on the impermeable area one, then you can see which use codes are included. Do you know what I

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mean? So, keep going to the right and click on the total. Yep. You see it? So, let's get rid of the ones that don't have anything. You may have to go to the bottom to see like a blank entry, right? >> Blanks. Yeah, get rid of all the blanks.

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>> Open and say, "Okay, so 4412 properties area." So now you can look at the use codes to see who the who the who the use codes are. I thought 130 was residential. So now you can now you can uh filter on those.

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>> A lot of these codes. >> Yeah. But the residentials are all in the hundreds and thousands. >> Did you get any narrative that goes with this? Any explanation for me? >> I think 1010 is residential. >> Yeah, that's a single family home, I think. >> What's 1310? Is that like a multif

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family or a condo? >> Looks like it's potentially developable residential land. >> 1020 I think is condo. >> Okay. So the under the use description, that's what the title for that use code is.

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>> Okay. >> So there's 1010 there. So there was one 1010 in there which kind of Can you go back a little bit, Bill? >> There it is. >> Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder how how that happened. What is the address on that one?

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>> 217 White Street. So, how many how much imperable are they say they have? >> Almost 7,000. >> But that's a residential one, isn't it? >> 84. >> Yeah, that's kind of in line with, you know, the average 4200.

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Okay, maybe they just did for fun a subset to see if the 4200 makes sense. They might have picked up some things that they didn't mean to too because they're doing it most likely with a drone.

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>> Yeah, I kind of makes sense. If I were doing this, I would maybe sample like 10 or 20 residential properties to see if the 4200 makes sense. The average imperial area of 20 residential properties should be reasonably close to 4200. Not so sure what it is about that

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property that's unique that would make them. >> Yeah, I'd show why that would show. >> Try filtering by 1010 and see how much 1010 is in there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. How do we get back?

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>> So, scroll over all the way to the end to the other side, the front, the beginning. >> Go to the codes. Yeah. Oops. >> And then a little bit further. >> Yeah. >> And deselect everybody. And then pull in

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all the residential lists. >> There's a lot of condos in here. The whole Flat Hill is in here. >> Any Well, how about 1020? Keep the thousands in. So 1020 1030. What are 103 C's? So there's two 10

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tens. >> Weird. >> Okay. Yeah, the 10. >> I wonder if it picks up over a certain amount for cuz I know there's definitely stuff that has less than that that I saw, but those are, you know, big

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amounts for of impermeable. It's >> like the 1020s or the 1030s. I don't know what 103C is. 10. What's 1050 and 1060? >> I've done this a million times. What are the Massachusetts building use codes and the assessors?

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>> 1050 is three family. >> The Massachusetts assessor's property type codes are three-digit classifications used to identify how real estate is tax. >> 101 is single family. 102 is condominium. Mobile home is 103. 103 is there. I threw one in there.

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>> Retail spaces and lands for legal advice. >> Yep. Plan improvement. >> So, what are the what are the numbers coming out on these properties? Just out of curiosity. >> Areas. >> Yeah. So, they all should be like 4,000ish, give or take. It's kind of

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It's kind of what's happening. So, that that one must be the condominium complex. We throw that. >> The big one is Meadowwoods. The >> Yeah. all the >> I'm just looking at 217 White Street aerially.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. >> And that number doesn't make sense. >> Are you looking at like a satellite view or you looking at like a survey view? The GIS seems to have like the out the footprint of the of the structure, but it doesn't have driveways. So, you need

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to look at a satellite view. >> I'm looking at satellite view. In GIS, you actually can do like a hybrid satellite, too. >> Okay. >> I was just looking at Google Earth, though. >> Bill is on top. He's good at this.

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>> Um, I see a driveway there. >> Decent size driveway. >> Good driveway. >> Decent size driveway, but Yeah. >> But aren't we looping >> thousand >> single family homes together?

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>> Yeah. >> I mean, cuz there's going to be some single family homes that are a thousand square feet. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They're all lumped together. They're all the same. >> Yeah. >> That that doesn't seem unreasonable to be honest with. >> Yeah. >> I think with the rival and the parking deck and that footront of that road over

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here >> structure. Yeah. >> What is that road? Jacqueline Drive. >> Uh, it's a condo. >> I bet he knows the name of every street town. >> Yeah, >> not quite.

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>> Many of them, but not quite. >> And maybe picked up a road. I don't know. So if you bring everything in and just sort by impervious area

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and descending pull them back in >> and look at the big ones and there's scroll all the way to the right and fill filter on just square area.

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>> Do select all and then sort descending. >> So all the smallest. Yeah. >> Okay. >> And there's some in here that are codes 9 9960.

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>> I think it's still filtering on something else. You see how it's 127 94? >> Oh yeah. >> What? What else? What else? Oh, >> I think the codes I didn't. >> Oh, >> no, you did select all. I understand. >> There was something else that I didn't

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>> You should see a little filter icon. >> Oh, just >> weird. >> This is filter. >> Yeah, everything's not there. >> Cuz you have the blanks out, I think. >> Yeah. Okay. Get the blanks back in >> there. Now you have you have every Yeah.

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>> And then But now you have to do this. It's nice. >> Wow. >> There's Emerald Place. >> Yeah, >> I need my glasses. >> But there's a code

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for 9960 for non-taxable condo common land and that is huge spaces. Flat Hills in there. Trown town's in there. Lun's in there. >> Okay. Yeah. So I can see that's the Walmart right there on top.

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>> Yep. >> And then there's that storage facility. >> Y >> and Mary standing ground. >> That's part of >> Ohing. Yeah. >> Wow. They did a good job of assessing Kading.

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I looked at that from like a like a a satellite view and it was a complicated complex of whole network of buildings and roads and and you're right there's Emerald Place. >> Let's say apartment complex Rogers Way

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Road. Is that also part of Arrive? No, that's heading from our down wheel road towards like Lemon >> on the left near McN behind McN.

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>> Yeah. Unatil's coming in at 200,000. >> Yeah. >> All stone and gravel. And there's the twin city. I came in 160. >> Rectory or parsonage is coming in. >> There's like >> 93,000.

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>> Which one is that? >> It's a big parking lot. >> 23 row 23. >> I looked at all the >> Yeah. >> All the church. There's like seven church properties in town. >> Yeah. It's a big parking lot there. >> Oh my god.

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We can't hit them. We should we should come up with like a plan on how we want to assess. And one of the things that I was thinking is I tend to agree I don't want to hit the nonprofits. So maybe what we could do is just give them an instant abatement across the board if it's a nonprofit.

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Wow. Just a thought and I don't feel like you know it's just my feelings. We can always talk about it later. There's Lunberg Water District 43,000. There's two >> Proctor Electric Avenue realy trust. So

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that must be DM Proctor's landscaping >> common vacant one is >> Oh, I look at them all. These are these are thousand properties right here. >> But what do we do with these 9960s? The

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condo common land there. There's three of them at the towards the top of the list. Which one are you looking at? >> Those are all like town um like well one of them was the village of Flat Hills which would end up getting

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>> built separately right to the parcel owners >> maybe like a case by case basis. >> What's own estates? >> Yeah. So the condo complexes I guess we have a decision to make. Do we want to do we want to build each of the con

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condos individually or do you want to do it as a association? >> How do they pay for things? Like how do they pay for >> you get your own property tax?

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>> Yeah. Same for sewer. Arrive. Everybody has their own bill. >> Oh gosh. >> It's treated like separate property. >> Wait, did you say it arrive? Everybody has their own bill for sure. >> For sure. Yes. >> Gosh. Cuz like >> apartments.

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>> Yeah. >> Arrive to me makes more >> by building. Maybe not by apartment. I think it's by building because we don't have that many >> Yeah. >> bills going out. >> I see. Because it's hard to I would I would think that it would be hard to meter apartments.

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>> Yeah. >> For sure. >> Yeah. for the water. Are you talking about it's based off of water usage? >> Yeah. So, you look at the water usage and then you build the sewer based on water usage, right? >> Yeah. So, does the apartment building

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have one meter or does it have a meter for each apartment? I don't know. >> How do you bill somebody who's on a well or you don't have the water usage? Uh >> there's a a set rate for wells.

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>> Okay. The water district builds people who have wells. >> No, you do. >> No, we're talking about the sewer. >> Sewer. >> So, like I have sewer, but I have a well. >> So, um, I did pay my bill, by the way.

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>> Jenny doesn't pay her bill. We've already established >> I paid it. It let me pay. It's paid for now till the next one. So, Jenny, you must get the same amount every quarter, right? >> I don't know. I think maybe I don't look

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at it. >> Um, it seems reasonable. Well, I look at it and then I try to pay it and then it doesn't let me and then I give up and then I look at it the next time. >> Just auto pay and then the same amount and then >> Yeah. >> So, what I plan on doing is everybody's

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agreement. I'll take that data. I'll enter it into the broader spreadsheet and I'll calculate what the what the uh fee will be for each of those properties >> based on our current chart >> based on our current tier structure. >> Yeah.

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>> Yep. Actually, we can we can play with different tier structures. Honestly, this is the perfect vehicle to do that. >> Yeah. >> Are we still missing properties, though? >> What are you thinking? >> Homes. I mean, there's so much building going on.

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I feel like >> maybe >> I mean the one house on town harbor I think sold and they're going to put up four more >> those on Massav and by Stone Farm. There's they're building over there now.

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>> When does the assessor's office update their spreadsheet that they >> once a year I think >> certificate of or >> but I don't think it I don't think they update the one online more than once a year. Yeah, probably not. >> Yeah, >> I suppose we could work with them

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anytime somebody gets a certificate of occupancy to let us know and >> add it in the next quarter. >> I mean to add, you know, five houses and the the whole scheme isn't going to move it much. But >> yeah, I like the idea of waiting for the s certificate of occupancy and that'll

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trigger >> adding them to up until then is a developer just paying taxes on land. We also have to follow up on the remember what Anna said last meeting about the the shopping center. Are they really

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is there are their taxes really just the tax rate and the assessed value or was there some kind of forgiveness in that? >> No, actually I followed up on that. So I reached out to uh Brian Leavand. >> Uhhuh. >> So and he's and he forwarded me to Linda. >> Yeah. >> She's like our assessor.

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>> He's the principal. Yeah. >> Yeah. So I kind of talked to her about it and she says basically that it's that they come up with an assessment and you multiply by the same rate. >> So it's no different than how they determine ours. >> Yeah. So I tried to get more information from her. She and Anna was correct in

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the sense that the commercial industrial they assess different. It's not based on sales. It's based on Right. Right. So all the properties have to fill out a confidential um expense and income

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report and they give it to the town. The town takes that information and they calculate what their assessed value should be. >> So once you have the assessed value >> 14 calculated because she was saying there's something about construction discounts and blah blah blah.

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>> I wanted to meet with Linda. I'm kind of disappointed she haven't followed through. >> Oh has she? >> Recently. Yeah. >> Uh maybe. Yeah. All >> right. I'll try reaching out to her again because she kind of ghosted me like last week. >> So I kind of it was nice and I talked to her and she had she was very

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informative. She found out I asked her for that information but she says um the expense and then she call it IE income and expense is confidential. >> So she doesn't want to give me that data. So I said well why don't you uh come in 20 minutes and you can tell me exactly what the process is and we can

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work with you know >> we just need to know their tax. So what do they behave with property tax? Well, I think we have it because it's >> we have it. It was 150,000ish >> is that on the spreadsheet >> like the spreadsheet from the assessor has an assessed value for all those properties and that's what I want to

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talk about. Is that your assessment based on your assessment? >> And I never got that answer but I think it is. And if it is >> then the assessor spreadsheet has all that information in it. >> I mean what property what people pay in property tax is public record right? Yeah, >> there's nothing. I mean, we can't easily

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get to it, but the >> assess GIS. >> Yeah. >> Well, that's the other thing Linda said. Go to the GIS sheet for each of the properties. >> Oh my god. Yeah. No, no, we just want a dump of the data spreadsheet. Yeah, >> I agree. Yeah. So, that's why I haven't I haven't gone down that path because it

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needs to be simpler than that. >> Yeah, we can't look up. >> I understand. You just take session spreadsheet the total value multiply 14.39. You've got it. I I didn't have I'm glad you followed up with her because I didn't have time and I that was in the back of my mind like is there some calculation that's different? I don't know.

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>> If she's as soon as she's available, can you drop a hint that I'd like to meet with her? >> I I don't know what she's out of office. I don't know when she'll be back. >> Yeah. >> I haven't heard. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Is she on vacation or something? >> No. No.

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>> Take personal leave. >> Yeah, she's on she's on leave is my understanding. Um, if I if I could meet with her and just get into, you know, understanding how that is, but I just I understand it. I'm going by the assessor's worksheet that's

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available online >> and the total assessed value multip. That's it. >> Yeah. >> And I it makes sense to me because I don't want to pull a CJ here >> and charge somebody like like twice what their what their tax property tax

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assessment is. Um, so it it behooves us to calculate what the ratio of the fee is to the total assessed value. If that number exceeds like a number like 10 or 20 or 50%, we should flag it and say this doesn't make sense to do that to this poor little business. You know what

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I mean? So then we might want to consider that too. Maybe put a cap on how much we're willing to assess some of these smaller businesses if they >> especially for the ones who are tax exempt. Like what what's the assessed value of a church? taxing them.

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>> Um, >> yeah. So, I mean, tax, we're not we're not basing this off of assessed values though or any of that. We're basing it off of impermeable surface. So, we had talked earlier um about

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putting the utility on, you know, tax exempt because it really is just because they're tax exempt doesn't mean that they don't contribute to storm water. So yeah, if you remember right, the reason we wanted to do that is we wanted to compare what the what the utility fee for each of these commercial properties

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would be and compared to their tax bill. And if it's just out of whack, if the if the ratios are if it doesn't make sense, doesn't pass the smell test, then we should do something. I mean, obviously these utility fees are like, say for Lunberg Crossing, um, their tax bill, I

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think when we looked it up last time, was like 145,000. Obviously, their impermeable surface calculation would not come anywhere near close to that, I wouldn't think. Um, >> I think we figured that out last time we met and and I think Anna had asked the

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question and came up with like 15% of that total is what their is what their fee would be, almost $20,000. Right. >> So that's like a that's like a 15% increase in what they have to give to the town because of this new utility fee.

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>> Yeah. But I mean this is a company that owns property all over the world, >> right? >> And you know they own they own the Burlington Mall property. They own >> according to said >> whenever they assess these fees they don't bet an eyelash. Yeah. That's what

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she said are doing business. >> Yeah. >> Right. And I think that, you know, they chose Lunenburgg for a reason. And I know that there are people there are, you know, there's that idea out there that if you tax businesses, they'll

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leave. And I think that the data doesn't show that. You know, if you hear about like Amazon warehouse they were going to build in Brooklyn and then they ended up building it, but people said, you know, you have to do this and pay taxes and Amazon was trying to get this big tax incentive and they said no. And they

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still built it. You know, it's not businesses choose a place to do business for a reason. So these big companies have chosen Lunenburgg because they think that there's value there and they think that having property there makes sense. So it's not like they're just

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going to be like, "Hey, >> we're going to get rid of this property now because you're charging us for impermeable surface >> and storm water." At least in my opinion. No, >> I agree. I like what you think. So,

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can we I don't I don't even know what's on the agenda. Can we take a step back for a higher level >> thing? It's on the agenda. >> Oh, just this. >> Okay. >> I think this whole general discussion qualifies, right? >> Yeah. >> Um so, we're not doing anything

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obviously at Animal Tail meeting because there might be some other things to discuss. Um and looking at fall town meeting there's I think a utility because of the

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overhead and it depends on what happens with the junior engineer position which is in tier one budget. Right. Right. >> Because that will help lower the overhead of the storm water utility. >> True. >> Right. So that will help. But if it doesn't

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pass that I the the overhead is real. It's a real problem of getting buy in from the public because it's a small utility. A 30%

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um addition on top of that is it's actually out of pocket would be less especially for the bigger properties to have in the operating budget. That's what we're going to be facing. >> So 30% where that number come from >> from Bill's budget.

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>> Again, if the the junior engineer comes with it, if tier one passes or tier two for that matter, the junior engineer position is on there, that takes 86,000 off of his storm water utility budget. So that will help. That's I mean the

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overhead is going to be worse because he was actually going to get an engineer which increases >> part of his time will be for storm water >> right >> so what what the argument though that like my time it's already paid for right

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>> it's not an an addition to the town >> so I'm curious to know what went into the overhead what do you have that information >> it was everything a lot of it is the stupid building service. Well, you know, the administration of the building,

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>> the building, it's um accounting office. >> Uh what else you had just Oh, legal fees. I forget what else was in there. >> Accounting, treasury,

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>> so far that's chump chief. So, what was the big hitter? >> What drives up to 30%? So, because if I remember, you asked for $500,000 budget >> these indirect costs. >> So, that means $150,000 in overhead. really >> right. It's the personnel is the thing that we're in

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>> overhead. Why isn't he like a new hire that can be used for general purposes? >> First, labor is I guess not technically overhead. >> Labor is overhead. >> I think of utilities, electric, I think

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it's >> also um benefits are overhead. So what what has to be done I think is comparing these

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costs utility versus operating budget cuz it almost went made it into the tier one of the tier budgets this year. One of the override budgets the full full funding of storm water almost made it in. It didn't, >> which is a big disappointment for my

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opinion. >> Yeah, >> I thought Jen did a pretty good job of convincing that the select board that that this is a thing. >> Yeah, it is a thing, but it was going to be another $500,000 on top of >> Why is the storm water project manager

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part of the owner? He's doing he's supporting the town infrastructure, you know, storm mode infrastructure. That's critical as it's critical. >> So would that be there if it was in the operating budget? That >> I think in the operating budget. I don't think that's an overhead thing. This

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it's his charter to oversee your storm water system and make sure that it's >> so if it's in both then you that's what you show. It's in both. It's these are in the utility. These are the the cost if it's in the operating budget. And if that delta is zero for any line item,

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it's net neutral. It's nothing. The ones you want to pay attention to are the lines that have a difference between those two. >> Either way, it's going to cost more for us to do an operating budget. It's going to cost less to do an operating budget. So, if it is the project manager is in

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both, then it doesn't matter if it's utility or not. It's the ones where it's only in the utility budget. And that's the true overhead of the utility. I think that way less than 30 >> that difference, right? >> You have work that needs to be done that's not getting done. So you're hiring somebody to do that task. How why

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is that overhead? >> No, that's a forget the overhead term. If you have these are the costs of everything storm >> storm water no storm water related in everything storm water related. >> Yeah. >> And if it's utility you put it in this

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column. If it's an operating budget you put it in this column. If it's something that you have to do, doesn't matter how you're paying for it, has to be done anyway. It's the same in both columns. So that delta is zero. So that's not overhead. It's when you have something like, oh, we have to additional billing

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if it's a utility. So that >> should be an operating budget then. Is that >> I think we have to do both side by side and show Yeah. >> Yeah. What if the um personnel is able to take on >> a lot of the um the stuff that you know

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the engineers that the consultants do for us now. So it's not necessarily just a onetoone. Say we're able to save 50,000 from CI by taking in some of that stuff internally. That's not that doesn't necessarily make it a oneto one as far as anything that's

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not in the bud in the operating budget would be considered. >> I would you would put it in the operating budget. You would you would put it in both places. Something like that. If you're planning on bringing >> have a consultant in one and we were

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going to have a consultant in the other because there are things that we wouldn't need a consultant for if we had in-house personnel. But are you talking about having in-house that there would be a difference in terms of in-house personnel in an operating budget

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approach versus a utility? >> Because well the if we spend say we spend $80,000 a year on CI >> and that is consider that's considered the

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operating budget, right? >> Sure. is that >> and we're able to take 60,000 of that away by having in the storm water utility having a person there that is

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able to take on a lot of that. So even though >> you have the benefits you don't have to with the utility you could still keep CI. That's what I'm saying. anything that's storm water. >> But I mean, why would we that isn't that like part of the reason that there would

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be personnel that can do some of the stuff that CI does? So, I'm just saying it's a it's a cost savings. It's not a cost savings because obviously the personnel would cost more, but there are some things that can go away. >> Here's another way of saying what you just said. In his operating budget

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today, $50,000 goes to CIE every year, right? CI. So now we're going to hire somebody to do that. So why isn't that part of the operating budget? So he's going to take that $50,000 and he can give it to this guy instead of CI. >> CI is doing things other than storm water. So if you want to reduce their

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contract, so so they're not doing any storm water and you bring it in house. You can do that with either approach. That's what I'm saying. >> There would be a savings there though that could go toward some of that things that we're considering overhead. So it wouldn't be

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a onetoone. >> I still think we're spending money on that. We're just assigning it to a different person. >> No, we're not we're not on the same page. >> What besides billing? Okay. So what is the difference in cost between

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it being the operating budget versus a utility besides billing? >> What has to be different in cost? I think it's key. Billing has to be different, right? >> That's what I'm saying. The other things don't have to be. If you want to keep CI, you can have CI under both

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approaches. If you want to reduce CI and bring some in-house, you can do that in both approaches. >> Right. >> So, I don't think the approach to paying for storm water work should be different in the utility and the operating budget. >> Sure. Yeah.

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>> Right. >> Yeah. >> I think it should be the same approach and then it's a question of okay, what is the cost the all of the billing and postage that is different? >> Yeah. What another trade-off is okay if you keep it in the operating budget

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aside for it being a target for cutting. We know um you lose the ability to you know in if you keep it in operating budget the way you pay for it is tax your property tax. So everybody pays X. It doesn't

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matter how much impervious area you have. If you're class, you know, single family home, if you're commercial, whatever, or it's just peanut butter spread across the whole town, everyone pays the same amount. So, you lose that granularity to and the abatement. You you're not allowed to have there's no

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opportunity for abatement. So, those are the the big things. Um the the benefits you lose by going in the operating budget. The price you pay for the for going in the utility

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is the administrative stuff, the budgeting, the the book, you know, accounting, all the postage. >> Sure. >> You will have you will have those indirect costs of accounting, treasur, collector, >> you will have you will have legal fees.

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>> Um because that's a separate enterprise. You have to pay for everything you need separately. >> Would we not still like if it were in the operating budget, we're still paying for that. Just >> it comes from the town general fund. >> Right. Right. Which means that it

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applies more on the residents of the town than it does on the businesses of the town. >> Mhm. >> So like >> Yeah. This this like it it seems really obvious to me that it as a utility is

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better for the people of the town >> in terms of like who has to shoulder the cost of it. >> Yeah. >> Uh versus like it being a not in danger of like being cut or being scaled back.

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>> The trade-off is those indirect costs. >> Sure. >> That's the trade-off. It will cost you those indirect costs are you will have a utility you the enterprise doesn't have to cover that because that's coming out of town general fund if it's in operated.

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>> Sure. But that's still being paid for by the citizenry. >> It's paying for >> but and and more the citizenry than the business >> in the operating. Yeah. Because the resident is higher percent 90 something% of the town. >> Why not? So, he's got an overhead with

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160,000 right there. Do you want to put together what we think maybe the right number should be there? What's your formula for that $160,143? >> That's and that and

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>> you just click on the 160,000 >> these three. >> It's sum of those three. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So I >> I just don't understand why that dead flavor >> I think you take the top section out. >> Take the top section out. >> Yeah. Get rid of A10. >> Like anything that it doesn't change

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whether we pay for it via operation like >> if we pay for it in operation pay for it utility like >> that's important because that >> Yeah. >> The 30% is out there. It's out there. It was part of the presentation of Fincom. >> Yeah.

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>> Yes. So, this is to get to to explain it and show this and show side by side utility and operating budget. >> That makes more sense to me. I like that a lot. >> You're hiring a guy to do a job that's not getting done today. >> Why is that all overhead? I don't understand it. It's kind of like saying

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crime's getting running rampant. We need another police officer, but he's going to be overhead even the other police officers aren't. Well, as long as as long as that position with like this junior engineer can cover all of that work, >> can they? I don't know.

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>> Well, Bill's going to be his mentor. So, yeah, he's going to be able to do >> between the two. >> But that's the whole salary that we budgeted for was 86,000 in the in the tier one, I think. >> Yeah, same number. >> But he's he's he whatever they're going to be doing more than storm water. It's

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general project management and and other things >> stuff which I would consider to be an operator. >> Yeah. The idea that this is significantly more expensive as a utility than part of the operation budget doesn't doesn't resonate with me

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>> or me. >> Yeah. I mean >> because like most of these >> be done operation budget or utility >> we we need and and maybe it's something for juries to do. We we need to show that we need to have the sidebyside and

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so people can understand >> um >> what's the difference? Why don't we just fine, I'll give up, you know, I'll I'll just pay the same as everybody, some big, you know, the mall, whatever. I I'll pay the same amount of uh

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portion of my property tax can go to storm water. And it's I think something you like a useful visual piece of data to put in there with those pie charts we had of like here's what the tax breakdown is like here's how much of is the residence uh for regular versus what

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it would be under the utility. >> You like my pie charts? >> It was a good pie chart. >> I liked it too. >> Keep in mind the the climate that we're going to be facing. Oh, >> for sure. one, you're fighting against a utility.

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Um, it's an added fee. Some people will call it an added tax. >> Sure. And that's why I think one of the important things to like put the focus on is saying like if this is operational budget, this is all our responsibility

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as the residents of the town. If we make it a utility, this gets better divided between who is actually creating I was so reluctant last time when we voted. I should have said it been a nay by the way because it still would have not gone through because there was I haven't voted. But people you got it's it's

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another source of revenue that we haven't tapped into that other towns are. So it's not going to cost the total residents any more money than it would if they paid it through through the tax levy. But we're going to pull in additional revenue through these >> Well, if it goes in operating budget, it's going to be an override.

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>> Sure. And like and >> Oh, it has to be. It doesn't fit. It has to be >> if if if storm water all the storm water work >> Yes. >> comes out of the operating budget. Yes. >> The four 500,000 whatever there will be an override to fit that in. It cannot

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fit without an override >> which then again like that is a a permanent uh increase in taxes on primarily just the residents of the town. like instead of it being divvied up between the residents and the

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businesses as a impervious area, >> we should make the businesses pay more. That's the whole point. And people are tuning into that fact. It's not like the resistance of paying more. It's that we're now we're tapping into resources. >> And it's it's not like a desire to hammer businesses is a desire to make

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things equitable. I like to say they're getting away with something >> and we're sort of >> burning >> like you said to it's it's different with property tax. It's all on your assessed value. Storm water is on impervious area and you can we could even have a figure and I have no idea what it would look like assessed value

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versus impervious area and see if that is a linear correlation or not. >> Sure. >> It probably is close to it's probably not a one a slope of one but there's probably >> Yeah. Well, that's that's what I will do. I will have that information available next time be

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>> because this is this is going to come up and I think we have to >> so basically you want you Yeah. So what you want to see is is the ratio of the fee to their assessed value. You want to see that kind of number be sort of flat across the board. I don't think it's going to be

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>> well that's one thing though what I was what I was saying was to get property property tax versus utility. Property tax uses your assessed value. the utility uses impervious area. >> What is that? How do they relate to each

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other? >> It's going to be all over the board. Some businesses are commercial or retail. They have to have big parking lots. They're going to pay more. It's just sort of the nature of this beast. >> So then so that if that's true that for those cases, they're going to pay more

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in utility versus operating budget. So we're not get they're not paying their fair share if we go the prop the operating budget route and rely on on property tax. >> I think that message should be out there. If they people latch on as 30%. That's a mistake.

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>> The cost of utility that you don't have in an operating budget has to be address has to come out because people are going to ask no it's it has you can't hide it. >> 4% >> you have to address it. >> Do you feel comfortable advertising 4% or do you think that's unreasonable? Do

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you want to throw in the if if it's like the uh benefit fringe benefits is that traditionally part of overhead? >> Yeah. No, I like your argument that the engineer is doing the work of the utility. >> The engineer in both >> not really overhead

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>> both scenarios, >> not overhead, right? >> So, so it's a net zero. >> I would at least take his salary out of there. >> No, I would show it. I would still show it, but it's again it's in both scenarios. >> Yeah. Leave it in there, but take it out of >> your both. And then you have like a

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comparative like third column to say like here's what's actually different. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. >> The net cost of the utility. >> Yeah. >> Because it will be higher than the operating room. It will be >> you want to do that or do you want us to hash it out right now? What do you want to do?

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>> Legal goes away. >> Legal legal fees would go away. >> Do you want to come up with another formula for your 4%. So what what's your recommendation? You wanted to have two columns. >> Yeah. >> One with the operating budget, one with the overhead.

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>> No. One operating budget, one utility, >> and then a third that subtracts. >> Want to do that now together or do you want to >> I don't think we have to do it now. I mean, it's just that. But >> another example, Bill, right? If utility, you have legal. You have to pay

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for legal out of the enterprise fund, >> right? >> If it were an operating budget, you have town council. So that legal cost goes it's it's rolled in. You don't have to put it as a separate >> you're covered as any other

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>> as part of your department. >> Yeah. >> So there's a so >> the indirect costs and all the expenses those are added costs for of the utility. >> Y that makes perfect sense to me it's overhead.

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>> Okay. So, here's what I'm I'm doing at the moment. Um, I am just kind of like writing down a list of what how can we have the best kind of presentation to

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give. Um, so like currently the things to add on here is like an actual comparison between our operating budget and our utility and where they're actually where they're actually going to differ. um putting it to the residents like who should be shouldering this uh

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you know first operating budget verse utility. Um those are the two things I have at the moment. Um and I think a lot of what we're going to need to do is kind of basing our presentation around those and whatever other how can we be best prepared for the

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questions like predict the questions that people are going to ask us so that we're prepared to answer them. Um, and I suppose a lot of that is going to come from whatever presentations we give to like assumably if we're coming up on the

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fall meeting, we're going to want to give another presentation to the finance committee. >> Oh yeah, >> if we have one then. >> Um, okay. Um there's also

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this summer we have to come up with the fee structure, right? >> Yeah. >> Um what was something else I was thinking? So yeah, this was that what I was thinking. So the the presentation Jesice gave um whatever last month, two months

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ago was more about storm water education, what it is, what you need to do. Oh, we'll have the permit. When do we know when the new permit's coming out? >> We might have the new permit by fall time meeting. >> Okay. >> So, right. >> It's possible. >> It's coming. It's coming. End of the year.

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>> These numbers could change. >> Sure. >> What needs to be done. So, >> and it probably won't change going this way. Um, so instead of focusing on what is storm water, why you have to deal with it and whatever, what the permit requirements are, it's more of what does this mean

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for Lunberg residents. These are your choices and this is this is how it impacts you because I'm it's it's this is not going to be good. >> No, the the attacking this from the like finances and financial burden aspect of

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this is going to be the important like >> that's what people are going to care the most. >> For sure. >> Yes, you have to do it. But okay, so how can I do this >> deepest way? >> Yeah. How can we make this, you know,

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shift the costbenefit analysis as far in the utility's favor as we can? >> Well, >> and the residents, >> I I'm not looking to shift the benefit either way. >> Sure. >> A benefit for the residents in terms of

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like what it costs them for what >> I you can you can set, you know, you can come up with pros and cons for each approach. >> Sure. the the question really is of those pros and cons, what matters the most to each individual and that's how

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they're going to >> Sure. >> Okay. Um so then something that a piece of analysis that might be helpful for us is a total look at what it costs in the operating budget verse utility. And we

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know utility is going to be slightly higher. But then that is divided by what would it cost residents in taxes if it came to an override versus what would it cost them in utility fees on that side.

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>> There's also fewer people paying if it was in the operating budget because we have that don't pay taxes. They're tax exempt >> and have impervious area. So, I think I think having that like bottom line piece of data of it's going to cost you X dollars in the operating budget versus Y

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dollars in the utility will be a really useful piece of data to have. >> It's going to be a little bit tricky because the people who have the lower assessed value pay less, the people with higher assess value pay more. >> Sure. >> It's going to be flat across the board of

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>> utility. Um, >> yeah. Okay. I think I've seen a chart that I think maybe someone posted maybe on of what your property taxes >> I saw the one for what it'll go >> different three different tiers we a chart very similar to that

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>> is kind of what we need >> people may be very familiar with that >> okay uh so that uh line >> so I think We have all the data we need to do everything, right? Is there

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anything else we're missing that we need >> at this point? I don't think so. >> We'll know by the end of May, I guess, what budget we're looking at. >> Okay.

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So, we've got some ideas on where to go and what we need to build. >> Jenny, you with us? You quiet? >> Um, no. I'm here. >> I'm just uh I'm I'm not feeling great, so I'm kind of >> okay.

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>> Trying to stay awake. >> Um, okay. Does anyone have anywhere else they want to go with this? I think this is a pretty good place to start. just gives us like a good structure that we're that we're trying to fill out. >> Do you guys agree that we have to show

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both approaches to the public? >> Oh, for sure. >> I I and I think showing both approaches to the public is also like that is the beginning part of showing them that this is your bottom line. X verse Y. Um, >> and then they have to decide. They have to choose. And then that's

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>> and I I am I don't have hard data, but just kind of estimates of how it looks. I am relatively confident that on the per resident cost utility would probably come down because I what did what did we

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look at? I think it was like 60% on the residents and 40% on businesses >> about that. >> Yeah, something like that. Verse uh like 95% to 5% or whatever that is. >> Well, let me let me add all that data to

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the spreadsheet and we can run different configurations and rebalance it. Yeah, if you wanted to make it so like >> uh maybe it was 60 bucks a res to to lower down the >> I I think it is it would be cheaper for residents by the utility, but there's a psychological thing. They're getting

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another bill. >> Yeah. >> It's kind of invisible in your property tax, right? It's like my taxes went up again. My taxes always go up. They're always going up. They went up again. >> And I think that's that's why it's imperative for us to have a really solid Yeah. kind of breakdown of how this all

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works and something really >> as bulletproof as we can make it. >> So, can you nail the numbers that I don't know if they've changed? >> Yeah. >> For the two approaches. >> Yeah. To fine-tune this a little bit.

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>> Right. So, you're going to come up with a new overhead number. >> Yeah. Correct. >> A little action here, Bill. New overhead number. >> Yeah. 30%. I don't know where that number came. >> Well, I know where we know where it came from.

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>> It's outrageous. I'm sorry. Even I don't would probably not vote for the utility if it was a 30% award, but I don't see that that storm water project manager is not an overhead. >> It is, but it's common. >> Is it what? >> It's common in both approaches. So,

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>> okay. It's still overhead, but it's overhead in the operating system. >> It's overhead for storm water. Yeah, it's it I'm looking for differences in the two approaches, utility and operating. >> Yeah, like the most obvious one, >> storm water, I don't care how you do it,

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you're going to have to have this engineer project manager. So that's that zeros out. >> Yeah, >> there's no delta there. But let's use legal as an example. If it's an enterprise, you have to have your own legal fees. If it's part of the town

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operating budget, you're just under the umbrella of our town council. It's on retainer. Let's go. >> Okay. All right. Um to death. >> I think that's a pretty good spot then. Uh did anybody have a chance to go over the meeting minutes? Uh the only one

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I've got the only one I saw in my emails was from 33. >> Yeah. Um, if everybody's happy with it, we'll uh take a motion and >> uh make a motion to approve the minutes of March 3rd, 2026. Second.

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>> All right. Moved and seconded. All in favor? >> Oh, you have to roll. >> Oh, I do. Uh Jenny, >> I >> uh Renee >> I, >> John, >> I for myself. All right. Meeting minutes are approved. Um upcoming events, town meeting. We're not doing anything this

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town meeting. um are going to focus down the line on fall. Um and that's the end of it. If anybody >> about when if she's hearing anything about the new permit >> again, >> when's our next meeting going to be?

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>> Oh, I always forget to do that part. Um, I am not going to be here during the week of the 18th. Normally be our I mean I could No, I don't want to zoom in for vacation. >> There might be a water district meeting that week. That's what I'm hearing.

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>> Okay. Well, I'm going to be in North Carolina. So, I was just >> Yeah. South Carolina. >> Oh, nice. >> Oh. Stop at Bies. Okay. Actually, it's in South Carolina. >> We just went to a Bies in Houston.

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>> Was it Houston? Yeah. Everyone that was in Houston said that you have to go to Bies. >> There's one in Amarilla, Texas, I think, too. >> Yeah. It's uh it's a it's an interesting place. >> Yeah. Um I'm going to be out of town um late

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the last um week in May. Memorial Day weekend. >> Um, >> maybe the week of the >> commission on the 28th. So, it' be a due basis. >> Maybe we look at the third week, which

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is like right around a month from now. Anyway, >> Tim's not here. >> Uh, I'm not. So, normally I was looking at the 21st. I won't be here the 21st. >> Okay. And you're out the week of the 11th, Bill?

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No, the 28th I can't do. >> Okay. >> Oh, I was thinking the 14th. When I said the third week, I meant like the third. >> Oh, >> yeah. >> I guess not the third Thursday, but I was thinking the 14th because that's right around a month from now. >> Yeah, I can do the 14th.

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>> That should be available that time. >> Let me check the other calendar. I think it's okay. Yep. May 14th. Oh yeah. Are we going to meet here or going to resume?

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Um, right. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. >> All right. Um, with that settled, I will take a motion to adjurnn. >> Motion to adjurnn. >> Second.

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>> Been seconded. Uh, roll call. Uh, Jenny. >> Hi, >> Renee. >> Hi, >> John. >> Hi. >> And I for myself. >> All right. Thank you everybody. It's been a good meeting and I'll see you next time. >> Have a good night. >> Feel better, Jenny.

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>> Thank you. Um, got to let Mark