There you go. >> All right. Uh thank you everyone for being here for the uh December 4th uh meeting of the stormwater task force. Um let's go ahead and get started. Sorry,
just trying to arrange my desktop. There we go. Okay. Um, so we have a member of the public with us today. Um, >> yes, >> I have no public comment. I have no
public comment to make. I'm just here to participate. >> Sounds good. All right. Excellent. Excellent. Then we will move right on into our topics for the night. Um starting with our the aftermath of town
meeting. Um our uh piece in town meeting went well. Um we got approved for our uh funding to go ahead with um
uh sorry I've forgotten the name of the company. Uh Weston and Samson. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. um to go forward with them. Uh so I assume that's what we will do from here. Um
yes. Uh do we have we just got this so we haven't uh discussed with them any of our going forward. So we've still only got the information we had from last
uh session. Is that correct? I haven't any Yeah, >> right. That's correct. So, we've um put together the standard contract language that we use the town uses and we sent it over to Weston and Samson for their
signature. I think it happened today. So, hopefully tomorrow, Monday, we'll have them on board officially. >> Great. That's excellent. That's excellent. Um >> do you have any feeling from them like
when we can expect them like how long to take how long it will take to get the GIS updated data impervious areas? >> No, that was in the proposal. I don't know if she put time frames in.
>> Okay. >> I don't think so. >> I don't remember. >> Yeah. I like Do you think we can make it to annual town meeting? >> I thought she said that we she thought we could.
>> That's what she said. Did she realize >> she seemed pretty confident that >> she wasn't going to have a contract until December? >> Oh, and no, I think we did tell her that, too, though. Yeah. >> Okay. >> We knew that. >> We told hertown meeting. Yeah. >> It's only two weeks ago.
>> I know. So, did you guys Tim, were you at the special town meeting? >> Uh, I was I was I was there for the first half of it at least. >> You saw the the our article come up? >> Yes. >> Okay. Did you see the discussion on the article?
>> Yeah, I watched the whole recording. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. I was sick that night, but I didn't know. next morning. >> Okay. So, you you heard the questions that came up. >> Yes, I actually >> Yeah, there were a couple good ones, but then also there were some really good like Adam Bernie.
>> I I talked to Adam Bernie at the last uh planning board meeting and and thanked him for like he did a really good job of >> Yeah. >> Uh putting it out there for everybody and explaining like why this is something we need to do. >> Yeah. Because there is going to be push
back. >> Yeah, for sure. Okay. >> It actually probably would be good for Weston and Samson to watch that. >> Yeah, that part. >> Yeah, >> that's true. All right. Um, excellent. So, we we got through town meeting. Uh,
we've got our contract out to Weston and Samson. Um, does anybody have anything else they would like to uh discuss or bring forth about where we currently are with the information
they've given us? I I feel like what they've given us so far is pretty straightforward and it's just, you know, getting us ready for their actual um research and data and presentation. Um, so I'm not really sure that there's much else for us to go over there. Um,
>> I feel like we're in a holding pattern till we get the data, but >> yeah, >> we're already getting feedback. Like you got feedback from a business owner that you shared with me who has spent money on BMP
and not happy with the thought of businesses getting a higher tier. >> Yeah. or so >> I mean it's not that we're giving businesses a higher tier it's it's based upon >> the big commercial areas yeah the large
>> right and Greg had some thoughts about that >> and in the interest of full disclosure I'm also a land owner of commercial property >> so I should say that to you folks uh I do I do aspire to all the uh an office
build something in towns so I I think through that lens that's a little bit too but I also have the unique the unique uh lens of being a consulting engineer so I see it I see it on multiple different sides of the uh the table I think we need to do a storm water utility and I think probably
businesses need to pay their fair share I just told that you maybe look for creative opportunities to >> yeah well it it was incorrect of me to say business but based on impervious area largely parking you know >> but even homeowners have already by the
way. >> Mhm. >> Which includes nonprofits like churches. >> Yeah. Big parking lot. >> Yeah. >> But even homeowners have already brought up things about they have spent money to put in mitigation. Um
and I think other towns maybe have some kind of process for credits or >> Yeah. It's just >> but there is overhead associated >> the expenditure that you have when you're working through that stuff is the
>> I don't do it like they you know time zero >> right and also it's not just what their properties are putting into the town it's that we are it's for the whole it's for the benefit of the whole town all over town not just the things
that are happening on your own property. That's kind of what we've been echoing all along, >> right? >> Is it's really for the clean is to street sweeping. It's to clean up the catch patients. It's to respond to emergencies. >> Residential properties. >> Yeah. >> So, everybody shares that burden of responsibility, >> right?
>> So, we you know, when we did our renovation, thanks to Greg. >> Um tens of thousands of dollars on on storm water mitigation. >> Yeah. And it's not cheap. >> No. >> But we have peace of mind because our property is not going to flood, right?
And I'm not going to say, "Oh, I don't have to pay for storm water. I don't have to pay for just about the streets. Doesn't make sense to me. I still have to pay for that, >> right? >> I guess for the benefit of the public, um, when when this there's somebody in the
waiting room. Um, if and when the storm water utility gets up and running, there's going to be no staff. So, the DPW is going to have to send out that initial billing maybe first quarter, second quarter before we can even hire somebody.
>> So, to give an abatement to somebody who has a storm water BMPs on their property, how can we manage that? It's >> Yeah, >> we can't until we get a staff, >> right? I need somebody to go out and and look at the property, make sure they're actually maintaining it, make sure they
actually have >> and the residences that much money for the residences, >> right? >> Right. >> Right. So, >> they're going to fight tooth and nail getting bucks off every quarter. >> Yeah. Then I need clerical staff to Yeah. change the billing around. Right. It's >> So, till we're up and running, >> some of the upper tiers, does it make
sense that we should assess each of the properties individually because that's going to be a lot of money, >> right? And the thing it's again it's not about what's happening on their own property. It's about what's happening all over town. So it's great if they I mean I have stuff on my property. I have rain gardens. I have all kinds of stuff.
But that doesn't mean that that's helping clean culverts. >> So >> yeah, >> they should pay something. But like let's just if you if you don't mind >> talk so I don't want to talk out of but like let's just say the the uh the largest probably the largest wonderful
thing we have in town would probably be the new >> uh vac well Walmart but I'm thinking about the new vacant warehouse down >> out below. Oh yeah. >> Yeah. >> That was a vacant piece of property and they did storm water calculations to
mitigate their storm water to a point to basically to collect all the runoff from the impervious the new impervious areas such that the offsite runoff is at or lower than it was without the impervious area. So when you go in there and you
assess them for their imperous area, I'm just saying I think you're going to get some some push back because they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in the case of that to mitigate that on site. So that the off-site footprint what it looks like it looks like they didn't even build it from a storm water
management standpoint. So that that's what I'm talking about in my thing that you know lots of lots of money and and that's all based on your local regulations but also just state u mass storm water guidelines. So >> so the kind of mitigation
that they put in place is there maintenance associated with it? >> There is and that was the point of my that's the one thing the town struggle to >> Yes. Right. to enforce, you know, um it's all well and good that you have to put a storm water operation maintenance plan. Uh >> yes, >> as part of the approval,
>> but um town struggle town just like there's no one in town that's going to go that that's the stormwater police that's going to go out. Well, Graten has one, >> but there's nobody in most towns. >> Yeah, Graten has Grten's really >> Yeah, Michelle Colette a lot of stuff.
Some towns have it, but I'm just saying mo in most by in the vast majority of towns in the com Massachusetts, they struggle to >> um to enforce um private people making sure the private private sites um
uphold their operation and maintenance. And it it's a big deal. If you don't operate and maintain a storm water system, it just every year you're going to lose you're going to lose capacity. We saw that on in other parts of town. those will remain nameless. >> Yeah. >> Um and it just
>> it so I think you might have an opportunity I get and I get your point until you have a until you have something with critical mass with staff you not but you just you may have an opportunity to to address a problem in town and give some incentive and incentivize people to it.
>> Do you know what the storm mitigation at that site? Um I mean I would imagine it's a combination of um conventional um storm drains, deep sunk catch basins to um uh extended storm water detention basins to hold and contain storm water
on site, you know, just to >> Does it flow into the town storm water system or does it go to like a stream or >> I don't know how much town the town has for storm water infrastructure down there? Probably just flows an offside wetlands. Yeah. >> No, no. Crosses the road through a tiny little pipe. >> Okay. Through culvers. Okay. So there
you go. So it does. Yeah. So >> yeah. So it still uses the town Storm War. >> It does. So >> but it uses it at the rate that it did >> when it even less >> before it was developed >> at the rate or less. Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Because they had to mitigate they have
to mitigate it and prove that there's less run at the same or less. >> So they added all that impervious area to something that what used to be a vacant lot that would maybe have been was allowing water to infiltrate it. How do they how do they reduce it? How do how does that happen?
>> They build they build detention basins and things to store it and then release it slowly. >> So all the runoff they catch catch basins and they have a network of of drainage that pushes it into a a big basin like in front of the library. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yep. Exactly. >> And it catches it there and it seeps
into the ground there. >> It seeps into the ground and it also um and it also just released release so it releases it at a rate that is at or less. >> Does it get to a certain level then it spills over? Yeah, it has emergency overflows and things, but yeah. >> Okay. >> But anyway, that that's the kind of
thing I'll talk that I was talking about. >> So, like in BR, do you have to be certified? How do you know to do the checks, inspections, whatever? I mean, how do you how are you qualified to do that? >> It's a good question. Uh I don't know what qualifications Michelle has.
Michelle's just been doing it for a long time. She was their long-term land uh land land use director. Um, she squans retired, but she still works for the town and that's her role in town. She just she kind of oversees that. >> I mean, you can give it to your consultant as added to their contract, I
guess, right? >> You can do that. Oh, one of the positions we thought of adding would be like a GIS or an engineer, GIS type person. >> Somebody like that could do it. >> Whand uh Jen would be happy to hear. Whan pawns it off on their conservation
commission. just volunteered >> in my free time. >> Sterling does uh does you have to get a swim permit through the conservation commission. >> So there's different towns do it different ways, >> but it is a problem because you you know
you get approval from the get-go. Yeah, it's doing what it's supposed to >> and then force it and then don't forget then you know then you don't clean it. There's no incentive to clean the catch basins or to clean the sediment floor in the detention basin >> or to mold the to keep the detention
basin mowed. So >> and all that costs money. >> All that cost money >> and that's why no one does it. That's why >> maybe if they farmed that out to the town then we would do it and uh charge them utility. If they did it themselves, maybe we would give them a break. But
how are you going to prove that they did it themselves? >> Yeah. >> If you can impose the requirement that you come up with a plan and prove to us that you actually cleaned out your catch basins and then we give you an abatement for that. >> Or would you put the the proof of inspecting it on the owner? That's
another option. That was my thought that if if you you know I don't know and you you guys have a lot more talk on this than mine was just an initial thing but you might have an opportunity to um to get incentivize people to actually do
the the required inspections provide that information to the not that the town would necessarily have to go and verify. could, but you know, if you got a um if you got a um bill of sale from a back vacuum truck company that went out
and serviced all the catch faces on a site, you know, or something like that, you know, that it's things that >> to prove that they're actually, you know, working on it. >> I wonder, I mean, we're talking at least for a resident, let's say it's $60 a year. I don't know, $60 to $100 a year or something like that. My guess is it's
going to cost more to have somebody come out and clean out whatever and do an inspection. than to just pay the >> utility. >> Yeah. >> So, >> I don't know if he >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if that's going to be a business decision, too. >> So, if they pay the utility, does that mean the town would do it and we'd get the tax money to compensate Bill for
doing that? >> No. It just doesn't get done. >> Go on private property. >> Yeah. >> Even if they wanted to farm out the work to you because you have the equipment, the personnel, you still wouldn't do it. >> Yeah. So, most homeowners have what? rain guard it, right? And
>> yeah, he's just gonna pull it, take the dead >> leaves out. And >> yeah, the ones we >> grab around town, there's a lot of them. the ones the ones the homeowner systems we're doing for residential homeowners that are over that 40,000 foot threshold in town
>> are things like um infiltration trenches along the edge of the driveway maybe a water quality swell along the driveway maybe of um maybe we're collecting the roof and putting it in a dry well um runoff from the roof >> and then maybe a rain guard in the backyard those are the things those are
the sort of the four most common BMBs on a breach lot >> but they they do They they require maintenance in all of them. >> Yeah. >> So, >> right. So, it's easy enough to inspect it. If they have an infiltration trench along the end of the driveway, if it's all covered in dirt or leaves, then they
haven't maintained it. And if the rain garden's full of >> overgrown overgrown lawn >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's now putting green. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. It's something. Yeah. I
mean, it's This isn't the first time it's come out. Let's just see what I mean. I assume W and Samson's done this before from >> Yes. Yes. >> It'd be interesting to see what they, you know, what other communities have done for this kind of thing because it it can't we can't be the first community that's >> not. No.
>> The other thing we have to figure out is the billing, the logistics of of that. Yeah. >> Right. So, I think my first eye is going to be clear about somebody to do that. >> Yeah. because it's timeconuming.
>> Somebody who knows Venus. >> Somebody knows Venus. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's not easy to go through Venus. >> Yeah. >> All right. >> The idea of like having somebody submit
uh that like they've had their uh BMP systems like cleaned or prepared or repaired or anything on a yearly basis. does sound interesting. It does sound like it has some kind of merit.
Um, so maybe that's something we consider in the future. Um, as as like was saying is like an abatement on the thing. I'm not I don't know. It's worth considering. >> I I agree. If they've done all that work
to mitigate the storm water and it can prove that it's less flow than it was before they started developing, it kind of makes sense to give them a break. >> Mhm. >> It really does. >> But something's going into the town's storm water system. So something,
>> right? >> So because it kind of makes sense to look at those really big customers live to assess independently assess them and >> and get somebody maybe them to help us assess individually the big >> not wipe it out entirely but you get
some kind of credit. >> Yeah. Talk to your properties >> and let them properties um apply for baitments. The thing that does worry me about that is that like the largest contributors to
the the utility are going to be the people like the the warehouse uh down by the Keading uh facility who have like they would be a large contributor, but if they've got all of the systems that they've already put in place, like
that's going to be a bigger hit to everybody else who has to pay into or to just the utility's bottom line in general. Um, that's that's the part that still has concern or like I'm not quite
sure what we do with that uh in particular >> cuz we have a number we're trying to hit based on your budget, >> right? Bottom line or it's going to bottom line. That's what I think. But that was his wish list. So, and my hunch
is you're gonna get less than you asked for. >> It's on a nice list. >> It's just Christmas list. >> Yeah. >> Um, so there's really nothing we can do until we get W and Samson on board and
get them going. >> True. >> Okay. Well, that's a good point to move forward from then. Uh hopefully we we start getting some information soon and we can start really working all of this out. Um in that case, uh has everybody had a chance
to review the meeting minutes for the October meeting? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Excellent. >> I'll make a motion to approve the minutes from October 23rd. Second. >> Moved and seconded. Um, all in favor?
>> Hang on. Sorry. I need to do this roll call, don't I? >> All right. Uh, Renee >> I, >> Jen, >> I. >> John, >> hi. >> And an I from myself. All right. Wonderful. >> Are we going to need like a kickoff
meeting with Quest and Samson once they sign or do you think they're just going to go? We've talked to them a couple times now. Yeah, but once it's signed, I'll reach out to her. >> Okay. >> See if she wants to meet. I don't think we have that. >> I don't because we only have so many
meetings in the agreement with them. >> Right. >> But >> I think the scope of work is pretty clear now. So, >> yeah. Yeah. >> So, there's nothing here in here in the meetings and project management task for that says they're just going to come in here and meet with us individ. It says, "Five remote project month
monthly project meetings with the town, two inerson public presentations in a wide range of groups and one meeting to hold dialogues and information exchange sessions with different organizations. Nothing with us." >> Well, with the town, right? >> Okay. >> I think is what they mean by that.
>> All right. >> But do we need you want to kick it off? >> I don't know. I'll ask. Yeah. I don't think we do. I guess I would just leave it open if they have questions before they, you know, I don't want them to do work and only to
realize, oh, we're off a little bit. I think that the three small group meetings were were us. >> It says three deliverables, three small group meetings, four public presentations, and nine monthly progress meetings. >> Really?
>> Where's that? >> Nine monthly progress meetings. >> Yeah. >> September. This is the final. >> So, this is am I looking at the wrong one? This is month over 11. >> Um I think this is September. Hold on. Maybe.
>> Yeah. >> Going back through emails. >> Reduced. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. We did. That was >> the limited right. The dollar total is $42.99. >> Yep. >> Yeah. I'm trying to find that in my
my emails. I'm thinking we can leverage off of the five remote monthly project meetings just to kind of kick off with us expand the scope. Okay. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Just let us know anytime. >> Yeah. >> All right. Um then uh last thing we've got is our is our regular ongoing business. Um I assume at this point things are getting too cold for there to be any more work on the
uh libraries storm water BMP. >> We don't have to worry about that because it's complete. >> Oh nice. >> Great. Okay. Sorry I might have missed that before. >> It's all done. Uh at the last meeting there was just a little bit to go but they got it done. >> They did a good job. You can hardly tell
they were in there. Except it looks totally different, but it's nice and clean and neat. >> Sure. >> That is great news. >> Right. Excellent. Uh, does anybody else have anything else they'd like to address?
>> If not, I will accept a motion to >> Oh, yes. >> There is a member of the public on Zoom. You may want to ask her if she is. >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Um would uh anybody in the the public uh like to make any comments?
>> Yes, thank you. Um can you hear me? >> Yes, we can. >> All right. Um so um sorry I got the halfway. Um I was working. Um, has the contract
that for the funds that were approved in town meeting, uh, has that contract already been awarded? >> It should be signed off tomorrow or Monday hopefully. Um, so just because I'm thinking of the
timeline since town meeting, um, in terms of uh was was that a something that was posted as an IFB or service or how how was that? I mean, great to be so efficient. I'm just curious about the
process that was followed. >> Okay. We had reached out to uh Weston and Samson I don't know two months ago to discuss them coming on board and they had given us a uh a cost estimate. It
was a little bit more than we could handle. So we reduced scope of work and uh they gave us another cost estimate for that 42,900. So uh they were you know ready to go with the um give them the contract. They're ready to work. And then
timelines for the town meeting. Um we they we told them that yeah the we have to wait for the fall town meeting in November before we get the money. So they were pretty confident we'll be ready to go for the spring town meeting.
>> Okay. Um so I mean I think you he they must be a uh a state certifi uh contractor. Are they like it doesn't sound like there was a competitive process with this consulting gig,
>> right? So for engineering that doesn't have to be a a competitive process. You can use whoever you want. So we chose Weston and Samson because we had seen somebody that work in other towns where they had helped other towns get their
storm water utilities up and going. >> Okay. Um and um and since I made this public this comment at the special town meeting, I felt that I owe to come to your committee and make the same
comment. Um I I am you know I know I and I haven't followed your work very closely together but I I'm not sure um where we cross the line between exploring solutions to meet the state requirements to we are going to
establish a a utility which is pretty much we're just establishing another tax and and I I heard during this time that I was listening to the meeting that Bill has a has a budget Um I I think you know
you hired a contractor and now I I think there needs to be a big piece of you know of educating the public on why we are going down this road on utility a utility tax or a storm water
tax versus any other uh possibility because I I I don't see it myself crossing like you know being presented with in town meeting for you know sign up for another tax and and I'm like well
but why so I would you know wish that your group to you know continue doing the work that you're doing you guys seem fairly fair fairly confident that that's the path that it needs to be done but I would invite you guys to engage the
public on some public meetings not in like this but an informational public meeting with a goal of communicating with the public, you know, put a notice on the ledger. We're going to we're going to be talking about why we landed with this solution. And I think you can
possibly do both in parallel. Uh continue doing what you're doing. Um I I think that would be a big really big hurdle to overcome. And the reason I say that not just I feel like I owe you that is that you guys are doing you know important work and I believe that we do
need to to you know become compliant by the state requirements. We don't have any other option. But it it would be it would be it would be a shame if you will if you do all this work and these and this item keeps you know failing in town
meeting. So you know I'm I'm all for public engagement and uh you know even doing it's harder but I I believe that is a value. Um so that's all. Thank you. >> Thank you Anna.
So this is this contract right here. >> Yeah. >> So this is is it available on the website posted on the website but >> All right. So if we posted the Weston and Samson contract so you can see exactly what's in the contract and how much each line item costs. Bill can post
it to the town website and you can access >> share it with someone did ask for it in the public. >> Right. And part >> that's right. >> Yeah. >> Part of the scope of work is public education. So that we will have some meetings for the public. >> Task four meetings and project
management. This task includes one meeting to hold dialogues and information exchange sessions with different organizations and groups in Lunberg to obtain approval buy in on the storm water utility plan and to gather input on the final structure of a stormwater utility. Scope also includes two in-person public presentations to a
wide range of groups including residents, community groups, and municipal officials. Five remote monthly project meetings will be held with the town to discuss project pro project progress. And the deliverables are one small group meeting, two public presentations, and
five monthly progress meetings. And for that task, they asked for $12,450. >> If I may, um, when I said Bill had a a budget, u Thank you for reading that. I it's it sounded like Bill has had a budget for the cost of running uh of
maintaining storm water in Lunberg. Um but I >> I appreciate you you know inform reading what you just said. Thank you. So that was related to like the public outreach aspect of it because one of the things that you had brought up is that we
should have some public education, >> right, >> regarding the utility and that part is of the contract is specific to that. >> That's perfect. That's great. >> That's pretty standard. Every town that's done it has Yeah. Well, we see
that and Weston Samson Yeah. has done it. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Excellent. Excellent. Um, if nobody has anything else to add, I will
accept a motion to adjurnn. >> When is our next meeting? >> Oh, duh. Obviously. Um, okay. next meeting. Uh do we do we want to No, we specifically
didn't because it runs right up against uh Christmas. So, uh do we want to have another meeting in December or we just go through to January? >> Think in January because people have holiday plans. I don't know if we'll
have anything before then anyway. Yeah. >> Yeah, that makes sense, too. >> The last two weeks of December are pretty busy with just about everybody. >> It's true. >> Okay. >> How does everybody look for January 15th?
>> Maybe we should shoot for the 8th just in case we get something back. When is when is town meeting? >> May. >> May. Oh, okay. All right. For some reason, I was thinking it was April. No will close in April.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. 47 days before I think. >> Never have enough time. >> No. >> Speak. >> Take it for me. >> Never. >> Maybe we should shoot for the 8th just to there may be a chance that we'd want to meet twice a month coming up to the
depending on what >> we might have to squeeze some in and especially like before some other town committees and public present, you know, information sessions, whatever. Um, >> yeah, I think that'll be okay. >> So,
I'm out of time on the 18th for about a week and a half. So, 15th would work. >> Are you around the ETH? >> ETH would work. >> You prefer the ETH? I >> I think it makes sense, but I don't I don't care either way. >> No, I I agree. I think the ETH makes
sense. I think the earlier we get the the meeting and and you know make sure that we're on track uh the better. >> And if we don't have anything back from them by then then we can >> I think we'll definitely have something back from them by then. It's over a
month. I hope if we sign Mon by Monday. I would think we would have something back by then. >> Would be nice. >> It would be. I just know holidays. Yeah. >> Okay. I mean, I'm fine with the ETH. >> Yeah, we'll we'll shoot for the ETH. Um,
if nothing has come through by the beginning of January, uh, Bill, could you let us know and we'll postpone the meeting as needed at that point. If we get in if we get stuff in, great. We'll have the meeting. If not, we'll,
uh, postpone it until we've got something we can work with. >> I can do that. >> Okay. Wonderful. Uh January 8th. It is task force 700 p.m. Reminder
234. >> All right. Wonderful. I do a motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> Moved and seconded. Uh uh roll call. Uh Renee >> I. >> Jen. >> I. >> John.
>> Hi. >> And an I from myself. All right. Thank you very much everybody. Uh thank you Anna and Greg for being here. Um and everybody have a great night. >> Thanks. You too. Feel better Tim. >> Thank you.