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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=F3-eYzyLHq4

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Mission to order. >> You need a roll call. >> Here we have a motion to excuse Mr. Dittle and Mr. Ny. Make a motion.

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Second. We have a motion and a second to excuse Mr. Noly and Mr. Uh, do little a vote on it. Discussion. Any discussion? >> Any more discussion?

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>> I I All right. Uh, do we want to do the pledge of allegiance? To the flag of the United States of America to the republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with

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liberty and justice for all. >> Okay. Believe the next thing on the agenda is the approval of the minutes from May 5th. Any discussion on that? There's been a motion and a second to approve the minutes from the May 5th meeting. Any other discussion?

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>> Seeing no discussion. >> Yes. >> I I Which brings us to the point of this whole agenda training session. The floor is yours. >> All right. Good evening, commissioners.

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Thank you for taking the time tonight to come and we'll have a discussion. So, I wanted to keep it as simple as possible. So, as you can see in your packet, that's I tried to do that. So

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Cambridge created a Robert's rules simplified version uh and then you had the uldc the sunshine laws and for open for public meetings and then Orlando

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created a great pamphlet on parliamentary procedure. How many of you have been involved with parliamentary procedure outside of planning commission? All of you. So what let me ask just when when was it that you were doing

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parliamentary procedure throughout your life? When do you remember that? Commissioner Evans said in college, right? >> Yeah. >> 20 years ago. >> Right. >> Fraternity goes. Yes. >> Okay. Who else?

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>> 20 20 years ago. >> Do you remember Mr. Ashbrook? Chamber of Commerce for a good number of years and I was on the Linhaven Commission for 10 years. >> Okay. So, you're pretty up to speed with it. You've been doing it quite a while.

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>> Serve on some um commercial real estate boards. >> Okay. So, it's used it's used throughout many facets of our lives. And I I believe that here with this with uh city commission, planning commission, it's

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really important. And the reason is to create a clear public record. And so I mean it goes it goes into all of those types of things. So we want to make sure that we understand it. And so I'm going to go over some of that. But first

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before we do that, I want to I want to go over the ULDC and your role as planning commission um directly from the code. So just the these key points that we're going to talk about. So providing a basic framework for running orderly

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meetings, support fair and transparent discussion, help commissioners understand how motions, seconds, decision and discussion, sorry, and voting work, and then clarify that Robert's rules are a meeting management tool and do not replace the ULDC or the

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comprehensive plan, Florida law or adopted city procedures. So there are some things that come into play that's in the ULDC, the comprehensive plan, Florida law, all of those play a part and slightly

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change the original Robert's rules. And so I want to make sure that we are understanding that. So um the purpose well let's see did that go to the next one?

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Yeah. So planning commission under the uldc this is um and so Robert's rules are intended to help meetings move in an organized manner and fairly so that everyone is

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heard. Um every commissioner is able to participate and voice their concerns, their vote for it, their reasons for um their decisions. the chair is the one that helps keep

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everybody in line and everybody focused. But where the ULDC or other adopted city procedures provide specific requirements, those requirements control. So under the um

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I just want to I'm going to skip ahead here. So, well, I'm I made the mistake of updating some of my slides. So, the planning commission is

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um so going going through some of these requirements that I'm talking about. So, the planning commission consists of seven regular members. Four const four members constitute a a quorum. I think you guys all understand that any action

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authorized by the planning commission requires concurring vote of four uh concurring vote of four members and then a non- voting schoolboard representative is required for certain comprehensive plan amendments that increase

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residential density. I have contacted um city manager Lightoot brought that to my attention. I've contacted the school district. uh they have appointed somebody but I need to clarify that because it states that a school board member however the school district

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appointed the facilities manager so we need to talk to them about that in the the letter that they um sent me. So, um, so we'll talk to we'll talk about it then, but that's when so when we get to the part where we're updating the

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comprehensive plan that school or and we're going to change if if we change anything regarding residential density, that's where we invite the school board member in to be a representative of the

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school board. Um so general order of the general order of a planning commission item. So first staff introduces the item and provides a report. Uh the applicant may

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present or respond to questions when applicable. The commission may ask questions to of staff or the applicant. The chair opens the public hearing or com public comment when required. The chair closes the public hearing or

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public comment and the commission dis the commission discusses the item. A commissioner makes a motion. Another commissioner seconds the motion and the commission votes on the on the o motion. So the the general order, this general

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order helps us keep the meeting consistent, right, with every decision that you have to make. Um, it creates it to where it's understandable for the commission, the applicant staff, and for the public. It also helps us helps make

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that make sure that questions, public comments, discussion, and formal action occur in the correct order. Uh, any questions on that? Yeah. So, >> can we just assume that pretty much anything that we'd be discussing and

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voting on will require public comment or it >> qualifies for or what are some things that would not qual qualify for public >> under the sunshine law? Any proposition before you requires public comment? So, if you if you have made a motion in a

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second, yes, it is appropriate under state law to invite public comment on that >> and that is before the actual decision. >> That's correct. >> Yeah. So just take that into account. >> And can the chair not make the chair can the chairman make a motion?

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>> You absolutely can under under Robert's rules for small boards. The chairman can make and second a motion without having to pass the pass. >> Instead of having to ask for the motion, you can make the gav like >> that's correct under Robert's rules that's permitted. Now I will also say that the culture in this community is

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that the chairman facilitates the discussion but doesn't generally make the motions but you can. under Robert's rules, you absolutely can. >> If uh during a public comment or discussion among the board, there's a

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question that arises for the applicant, may we still go back and ask the applicant? >> You can. >> Okay. >> So, any before the decision is made, that's that's the discussion. So once you make a motion and it's seconded, it opens up that floor to public comment

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and discussion by the commission. And if you have questions of staff or the applicant, yes, that's a time to ask those questions as well. Um, also before that motion is made is you have an opportunity before the motion is made

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for the decision to have that conversation and to ask staff and the applicant specific questions. >> Thank you. I have a draft script for quasi judicial hearings that sort of spells out the

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order of things that I will share with Gina and Vicki so that they get it to you with your 13 commandments for ethics and sunshine laws and all the other things I want to make sure you also have. >> Perfect. So going going the next step further, I

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wanted to before we jump into Robert's rules, I wanted you to take a look at the actual code. So how many of you have actually I mean I'm sure each one of you have touched the gone in there and you probably sit there and stare at it. I

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did when I first started. I'm like what does this mean? It's and I just had to readapt myself because every city's every city or jurisdiction writes their codes somewhat differently.

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Uh but the principles are still the same. So, I want you to be familiar with the code and how your role is established, what it looks like and what I look look at it, the way that I look at it um and review it and and I would

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recommend that you go through and read it because even um some of these they may be outdated. This is your opportunity to say, "Hey, what about this?" when we're going through say for example chapter 8 and you know what is

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it that would work better what we want our code to evolve with the city and so I really wanted to take this opportunity to have you take a look at the code in its format so that you become even more and more familiar

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with it and when you're reviewing applications so as staff we get an we get development order and those development orders that come through you as you make a recommendation to the city commission. It is it is important that you my this

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was pounded into my head as a planner in the city of Saratoga Springs was triple check the code. If you we had a checklist, which I you'll start seeing those in your staff reports, but it was a checklist verbatim of what the code

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required for that development application. And then I not only did that, but I went to the the municipal code on the website where it is published for the public and I double

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checked it and then I checked it again. So, that is what I would highly recommend that you do as planning commissioners is yes, I'm going to give you the information. I'm going to tr I'm going to try and tie it up into a nice little package with a beautiful little bow and

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say here you go. Um, and it is, you know, you you've asked to be on this board. You've been appointed by the city commission to review these documents and these applications that are happening within the city. And I recommend that

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you triple check the code because you're double check you're checking my work to make sure that you know this is good for your community. The community that you live in and the responsibility that you have taken on is for those people within

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the districts outlined here in the city. So I want you to be familiar with the code and I I thought what better way to do that than to look at your responsibilities as the planning commission. So we we summarized

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those things but you know the establishment of the planning commission the city commission hereby hereby establishes the city planning commission to be governed by the provisions of chapter 13 163 of Florida state code as

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well as the provisions set forth in the ul in thisc. Uh the planning commission shall be the local planning agency with all the duties and responsibilities as provided in sections 163.3174 of Florida State Code. So you are the

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local planning agency. You're citizen planners. You don't have to have a degree. You're not trained specifically for planning. So that's what these that's what I want to help you do is to do the best that you can in the the role

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that you've chosen to fulfill in your community. And it's a it's a thankless job unfortunately. And but the planning commission here in in Linhaven doesn't make as many decisions as some

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other cities do. Um maybe we'll look at changing that. We'll talk to the city commission. will work with them to see if maybe you can take on more of a decision-making role um for some of the more simpler applications site plans

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maybe I don't know there's different development orders that we'll define more as we go through the ULDC but uh there is you are the local planning agency so let's get you to that point to where you're understanding but it goes back to triple-checking the code so when

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you're seeing an application it's it's hard because there's several places in the code that we review against one application or an application against several different places in the code and so it can be confusing. It's hard to look and find

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where those places are. That's my job to help you do that. If you don't know where it's at, you can't find it. Don't hesitate to call myself or Vicki. We are here to help guide you through that process. In the last city that I worked in, uh, we had, I mean, in both of the

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jurisdictions that I worked in, they I had planning commissioners that would spellch checkck my staff reports and, you know, which was, you know, great, but he also found he he also found areas in the code that needed to be adjusted

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just even grammatically. And I think those things are important. Um, but he also was a fighter pilot. So, you know, we we kind of have that understanding here that fighter pilots are very concise and specific >> the manual.

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>> Yes. Yep. Exactly. So, it it's great to have that kind of variety and those kind of personalities on our boards and commissions because it really helps to keep things straight. Um, so just I wanted to get you familiar with it. That's why I included in the staff

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report. Um, do you have any questions as to what the code states? Did you have a chance to read those chapter 8 that chapter 8 and the planning commission responsibilities? Any questions? >> Just looking at and I think you just you

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made the point a minute ago is kind of our limited role compared to other places. >> Yeah. >> Literally, not literally, I guess everything we make is strictly a recommendation or a recommendation for denial. >> Yes. Nothing we do is a >> binding.

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>> Nothing is binding. I think I don't have it right in front of me. Um, you are correct. I there is a table in the U in the ULDC and I didn't put it in here because it's in another section,

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but it does go through what those what voting powers you have. What? So you're not you're a recommending body to the planning to the city commission. Um there are through the state co state law

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there the planning commission has cities can have the planning commission be more of a deciding land use authority. >> Um that's not necessarily the case here now. It could change for sure. um take

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some of that pressure off the city commission every and that that's the beautiful thing about our our government style, right? Is we have a rotating government where we have different personalities, different commissions. You know, the commission now, city

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commission now is completely different than what it was 5 years ago. And and that's the beauty of our government. So, it very well could change. I've been in places where it has been to where the city the planning commission had a lot

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more land use authority and then in the next year it was taken away and it went back to the city council and then it then you know four years later it's back at the planning commission level. So it could come and come and go like that

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quite a bit. I can see that >> right >> but I think that's one of the challenges is there's none of voices that are coming to these meetings and showing up there >> very much so >> so um the other to is down here. Letter

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E, other duties as described by city orders of policy. Do we have anything linked? Has anything been changed in any sort for us? Is that in here somewhere? >> So, I am not aware of any other duties that are currently prescribed by policy or there's no directions by the

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commission currently. Okay, that's not to say some won't be coming. Right. Re updating the comp plan and updating the ULDC are big priorities of this commission. And so while they haven't expressly directed the planning commission to initiate any of those

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reviews or revisions, >> um I would not be surprised if they pick a topic and direct you to uh spend some time thinking about it specifically. >> Yeah. And I that's um I would recommend that you come to city commission next

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Tuesday night because we're going to have that discussion. That will be an item on the agenda as to the direction. What is the direction the city commission wants staff the planning commission to take in making those

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changes. So, are we going to hire and my recommendation to them is to hire someone a consultant to do a major overhaul of the comprehensive plan as we take smaller sections of the uldc forward from our from staff to planning

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commission to city commission um rather than overhauling them all both all at the same time. It's it's quite a bit of information to just unload on you as a commission as well as the city commission. So, um that's going to be my

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recommendation. Uh you have an opportunity to attend that meeting and I mean the comm the city commissioners and the mayor listen to this and watch this meeting. So, I have no doubts that they will hear what your recommendations

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are as well. But um I would encourage you to come and be part of that that discussion as planning commissioners. So uh that is going to be next Tuesday. So um but yeah, I think it is you know

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sometimes the city commission will follow your recommendation and sometimes they won't. I've seen it go um I've seen city council's commissions very much follow what the planning commission recommends and then I've seen

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it to where they go completely opposite. I've seen it both ways and on different topics. So >> you would send up very helpful. >> Yes, >> right.

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>> Right. with >> right and that that's something we're actually going to touch on because that is part of Robert's rules is um we're going to and and that's a good lead into what the the guiding principles of

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Robert's rules and parliamentary procedure is when you're making those decisions you know it's giving the reasons for those findings and conditions for those And so in your staff reports from under my purview, you

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will have recommendations for motions and that will be an you'll have an approval. You've seen it before in the last application. So an approval recommend uh recommended approval motion recommended not approval recommended a

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recommended recommendation approval of recommendation of approval denial or continuence. Um that is you're going to see those options so that it helps guide you. That's that's the whole purpose of this. So

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>> staff report do you typically put the references to the code in there? Yes, >> absolutely. And that's um so in the sta in in the staff reports that I've done, it is always backed by code. So I am bound when I took this job, I am bound

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to follow the uldc and state code. So anytime and the comprehensive plan. So those are the documents that I'm reviewing applications against. And so my staff reports, the way I like to do them is to for you to have, okay, this

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under this section under the comprehensive plan, this application meets these requirements. If it's a lowdensity residential, um, we'll use the Finch property. If it's a lowdensity residential, um, decision, you they're going from low

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density residential to mixed use. I'm going to give you the references under the comprehensive plan where that is, what page number, what section, and it's going to give you a little blurb of what land, you know, low density residential means and what mixed use means. I'm

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going to give you both of those so you understand that and the reference. And then for the ULDC, I'll give you the code references and it will be okay. Does it meet this section of code? Here's yes, it complies. Yes, this complies. So I will give you those um

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those and then I will give you staff conclusions. So the conclusion is yes this application meets the comprehensive plan in this way. Yes, it meets the application you know this the ULDC in this way. So it it's going to be a lot

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more specific so that you have those code references. It's I'm not saying that whoever was doing them before was it was wrong. This is just the style that I prefer to do. so that you have all of that information right in front

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of you so that you can go and triple check the code. So um so you'll see that with future applications. So guiding principles of Robert's rules, everyone has the right to participate in discussion before anyone speaks a second

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time. Everyone has the right to know what is going on. Ur only urgent matters should interrupt a speaker. Only one motion or item should be discussed at one time. So the basic purpose of Robert's rules is fairness and order.

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The rules help ensure that un everyone understands what is being discussed, what action is being considered, and what the vote means. So Commissioner Ashbrook, I think that Robert's rules wraps up exactly what you're talking about. So what is a motion? A motion is

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a formal way the commission takes action. A motion should clearly state the purpose the proposed action commenions include approval approval with conditions denial continuence or recommendation to another decision-making body. Obviously you as a

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commission currently is going to be making a recommendation to another deciding decision-making body which is the city commission. So what that looks like on a staff report is it's going to be co these common motions are a

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recommendation for approval, recommendation for approval with conditions, recommendation for denial, and a recommendation for well it would be a continuence. It wouldn't necessarily be a recommendation for a continuence because that continuence means it's going to come back to you,

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not to the city commission. So let's I mean take for example you have a subdivision or a development order for a site plan and you're saying hey I want to know and understand this better about

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this design and these services or this flood plane or you know whatever it is if that information is not in the staff report and you want to understand more about it you or traffic study I think that's a big one that always tends to be

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questioned. Um, so you can ask for a continuence and and direct staff to, you know, continue to a certain date so that we can bring that information back to you for your review and decision. Does that make sense?

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>> Like a table then? >> It's a little bit different. >> So it's a little bit different. So if you take motion to table, it will automatically come back at the next meeting. But for land use decisions in particular, because you are often dealing with public hearings that have to be publicly noticed, I would

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recommend that you postpone to a time certain. So, we will postpone this or continue this public hearing until our next meeting at 5:30 or if you're going to have a special meeting to that date and time. But to say that on the record um avoids having avoids a notice and

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jurisdictional problem. >> Right. Right. So that's when So just remember that when you're wanting to get additional information because you are uncertain. Uh maybe even you have made a motion and then you take

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public comment and you hear something from the public that makes you think, hey, maybe we need additional information because they brought up a very good point. Then you could ask for

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continuance at a certain date or postpone it. So, as Amy said states, it doesn't mess up the the public hearing or the noticing of it. It just means that you are going to have that item come back to you with that information that you're requesting

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>> for you to review it and then make another make make your decision, your final decision or recommendation to >> ask for. >> Yes. when you when when you ask for what when you ask when you ask for that information. Yeah, it comes from staff.

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So, it's you're directing that staff to get you that gather that data to bring back to you for your decision. will have to go to the applicant or this, you know, the submitting engineer or whoever to provide that information. We can we

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can do that. >> It's not inappropriate to ask the city attorney for an opinion. If you have a question about the law, how it's been interpreted in this particular circumstance. I mean, I'm not automatically included in staff, but if you do have a question about the law, it is reasonable for you to ask for it.

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>> She is staff, so the city I include. I guess that's just my frame of mind. You know, the city attorney is whether it's a contracted attorney or not, they're still contracted to be part of staff. >> I work I work for you. >> Yes.

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So, thank you. That's a great question. Any other questions regarding this? >> Step back a moment. I know we've got three things that you said when something comes to you, compare it against three items. ULDC, state code, and the concert. >> Is there a hierarchy to those? Yes.

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>> I'm sure when there's three things, there's going to be conflicts between on occasion. >> Absolutely. >> What is the hierarchy? >> So, state code trumps and then your comp plan comes next. Um, that's your in my mind your like 30,000 ft policy decision and then your land development code is

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more specific. 10,000 to 5,000 ft on the ground to implement the comp plan. Comp plan implements state law. LDC implements comp plan. So if something UDC contradicts state, the state wins out on that text >> every time.

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>> We can be tighter than the code than the state code on something. >> You can you can't conflict. Um you can't be and some some and sometime sometimes you can be more restrictive than the state and sometimes you are preempted and you can't regulate at all. So it

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depends on the subject matter. So it it depends. >> Depends. Yeah. And and that that could very well happen. But again, that's what if depending on what kind of um stronger

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restriction it is. If the state code says, okay, yeah, you can whatever is more restrictive applies, then you know, we can go on that. But it has to be very clear in our code and and

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there are instances in our code where it's not and we want to make that's one of the the reasons why we do need to update our code is so that we are following that hierarchy and that we are looking at it from that perspective rather than you know kind of mish

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mashing it all together and saying oh well hey maybe maybe we're going to be more restrictive you know so so we want to make sure that when we're when we're doing these code amendments that we're looking at that. That's why a a

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consultant for the comp plan would be good because then we can work with them to make sure we're following that hierarchy. You >> have any more to add to that? Amy, >> in Alabama, we had regional planning commissions that uh provided support for comprehensive plans and different things. Does Florida have that?

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>> Yes, we do. We have there are re regional planning councils. Yes. I'm not sure how much support that they apply to the city. >> Yeah, there there's the Emerald Coast Regional Planning Agency. Uh I don't know. I mean, we do when like any of the

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comp plan amendments that I've seen that have gone through here, we do let them know, hey, this is the ch these are the changes that we are making. So they do get copied on that. What what they've

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support they've given us I don't know Vicki's Emerald Coast Regional Council even supported anything Lyn Haven's done. I don't know that. I don't know the history. Can we call upon them to ask ask? Absolutely. Um I've been involved with many regional councils in

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my last job. Um they deal a lot with transportation and that's where they really get their teeth dug in. Um they do have economic development and land use planning and they do look at comp plans. You can we can hire Emerald Coast

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Regional Council to help us amend our comp plan. Um we've chosen to go with other agent with other um consultants. So it is it is an option but there's not really a lot of support. I'm not in my

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experience I I'm not aware of much support that comes from those agencies. Sometimes some coordinating with if you have something that's going on in Jackson County that you want to coordinate with. Sometimes they can serve as a liaison, but in terms of providing substantive help um on

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revisions needed to a comp plan or ULDC. Um I imagine they in my experience they stay out of that. >> Okay. So any other questions? These are great questions, great discussion. Hopefully you're liking this. Um, so

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what happens if there is no second? So >> had that. >> Yeah, you're laughing, Commissioner Ashbrook. Um, this has happened before. Everybody's silent. Crickets, right? Yep. So if a motion does not receive a

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second, the motion dies for lack of a second. No vote is taken on that motion. The item remains before the commission. Another motion may be made, seconded and voted on or another appropriate procedural action may be taken. So this

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is when there's no second everybody, you know, everybody hates silence, right? So it is really up to the chair to help facilitate that. Uh you know there is silence is okay. It makes everybody squirm a little bit in their seats, but

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um this is part of our democracy. It is the ability to hey, I'm not going I don't like that vote. I don't like that motion. And so, you know, it may be an uncomfortable situation, but really it is the core reason why we have a freedom

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that nobody else many countries do not have because we have the ability to say no and we don't like that. Let's let's look at something different. So, um >> what do you mean the item stays in before the commission? >> What do you mean? What was that?

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>> Point number three. What is that? >> The item remains before the commission. So, if there's no vote taken, no vote, the no vote is taken on that motion. The item is still open for a motion. It remains before the commission. So, it

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means that it is still there to make a decision. A decision has not been made. I think that's where we've gotten a little wonky is we're like, "Oh, well, no vote, so it fails." That is that is not the case. If there is no second and no vote on the motion, it means there is

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no vote on the motion. It means that item is still a valid item that needs a decision made. >> I want to jump in here real quick. >> A second to a motion doesn't mean that you agree or disagree. You're not moving it up or down. It's not a vote in and of itself. It's a sign that this needs to

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be talked about. I second the motion means I agree this this should I want to discuss this. >> Right. And that goes to the related point just these are related. Um particularly in your code there are three possible

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actions on any application. A motion to approve, a motion to deny or a motion to approve with conditions. And so if any one of those motions fails, there are still two options left. So and again, if a motion doesn't get a second, there are

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still a world of possibilities for motions that could be made. And that's why when she says the motion or the item remains before you, it's because there are still possible actions that can be taken. >> And you can't move on until there is something done because you have to do one item at a time. Correct. So it's in front of the you don't just act like it

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didn't happen. >> That's correct. >> Stay on it until there's a decision. >> Exactly. Because you have to think of it going back to state code is it's a it's a if if it's a public hearing. If it's a public hearing and a decision, no motion

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second was made and the motion fails, it still has to have a motion because it has been noticed and it in order to keep things fair for the public for the de for the applicant

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there he's they're asking for a a decision on this and we've noticed it per state code. So we have to take that into consideration when you know we don't want to move on to another item if a decision has not been made. So just keep that in your mind that okay well

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nothing's been mo you know that motion dies it doesn't mean that it's been denied. So I I think there is some misunderstanding on that um that I've seen not just here is all over the place

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but that okay well if the motion dies then you know we're we're done with this item. It's definitely not the case. I have heard um Commissioner Tinder second a motion say I'm seconding this not to agree with the motion but to create open

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it up for discussion because I want to talk about it more. I've heard her actually say that in a commission meeting. And so, um, there's there's been others that have said it, too. But that gives you an opportunity to discuss, but another thing, it also gives you an opportunity to hear public

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comment. So, you may have somebody that has come to you and said personally and said, "Hey, I have a problem with this because of X, Y, and Z." You tell them, "Hey, come and comment on that in the public hearing." And it opens like like

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Amy said, there's so many things that can happen if a motion has no second. Mhm. Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. and then it

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>> find out which thing because I know there were certain things we've tried to condition but we didn't have the authority to condition like you we can't condition we can't approve subject to another agency's approval or something like that >> there are a couple of strings a couple of conditions that state law prohibits

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you some conditions that state law prohibits you the kind of conditions you are allowed and expressly authorized to make and I want to encourage you to make those conditions if there's a problem you have with an application It's an access or it's an infrastructure issue

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that can be solved with a condition that the driveway be relocated or an additional driveway be added or you know the storm water pond be relocated or expanded in some way. I I don't know, but based on the the either

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the staff report or the comments you hear from the public or adversely affected parties, if there is an issue that can be resolved um with a condition, those are the types of conditions that are um ripe for you to impose on the application,

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>> encouraged for you to propose. So, yeah, I thank you. That's a really good point. You're not prevented from making conditions. You can recommend that, say for example, you can Amy can correct me

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if I'm wrong. You can make a a motion with the following conditions. Always remember that you want to back that up with code. And that's what we're here to do is help you, you know, with that. You can ask for a traffic study or

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more study on more information on storm drain or what, you know, storm water, whatever. But you can condition that and it doesn't it does I totally lost my train. >> So my the point I want to reinforce for

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y'all is that it needs to be based on the record of your hearing. It can't be a pie in the sky idea or your own you're just coming out an application with, you know, I think everybody ought to do this on their properties, but it's not required in our code. >> That's that that condition is not your

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opportunity to get that chip off your shoulder. It needs to be based on the record of the hearing. >> And the confusion we had was when an extr territorial jurisdiction area and we were trying to there was a road access that was not our road. >> There was an attempt to try to make it

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subject to another agency's approval and that's where we got >> so we couldn't do that. >> Right. Yeah. That's problem. >> Yeah. So you can sorry >> some areas like that that are in our city that with county roads or vice versa. or

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>> unanexed areas that still have services that Yeah. >> I will also say that those applications where it doesn't feel good to approve them. You feel like, oh man, I I hate that our code is sort of forcing us to this approval situation.

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Those are great opportunities to place on the in my mind to become discussion items on your next agenda because you can recommend changes to the ULDC or at least have a discussion about is there a way we can change our ULDC to address this tension or this concern or to keep

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this problem from happening again. With regard to transportation, the answer may be no, but the answer might be yes. we can maybe address our access standards and require access cuts or certain roadway widths for certain types of developments. There may be a way. Um,

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but it's those applications that don't feel good that should trigger a how can we change our code? Not to prevent this from ever happening again, but to address that concern. Why was it a concern? Why was it not satisfactorily resolved? Um, those are great things

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circumstances to think about how to change the code. And that's where you have power is you have a power to change the code. Ask for a change to the code. It may not happen or there may be variances or variations of what you

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originally want it changed to, but that helps for the discussion and and helps direct us. Hey, we need to we need to change our code to an evolving city. And um that way it allows you that

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that's where you have really the true power is being able to address those types of things in in a real way. >> There are limits. You can't change the code and >> not for because you don't like the application in front of you. It's it's a

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post-mortem reaction. You have to take action on the application, but then you can revisit your code. >> Absolutely. And you can't change it on the on the fly either. You can't say, "Oh, well, I'm going to make a motion with these

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conditions that the condition is contrary to the code because you want to change that code. You can't do that legally in a public meeting. It has to go through the public process and public

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hearings and the quasi judicial process in order to change a code. So, it is always going to be postmortem. It's always going to be after that decision that you make that you didn't like. And so, just keep that in mind. But again, that's the beautiful thing is you do

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have power in that you can start that process to make your city better and and processes that allow you to make change >> as that comes into Robert's rules and just general procedures. If you have

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that come up where okay we have something we don't agree with it we know we have to push it through. Can you make that motion for discussion right after that? Do we have to add it to the agenda at some point? How do we do that? >> So in my mind yes deal with the application in front of you resolve it

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up or down however you're going to do it. Um but yes when you get to the end of your agenda planning report um you I think it's appropriate to direct staff to place it on the next agenda for discussion. Alternatively, under Robert's rules, you need a motion to agenda to amend the

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current agenda to discuss it right then and there. Yeah. >> Um it's highly procedural and again I you can do it either way. There's no wrong way to do it. >> So anybody can direct staff to add something to the next agenda. >> Yeah, I think so. >> With a with a second, right? With a

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motion. >> Yeah, with a motion second. >> Anyone meaning commissioners? Correct. I mean any of us. Yeah, the the public the public would need an application, >> right, >> in order to present something to the

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planning commission or the city commission. Um, somebody that wants to, you know, do something on their property, the vacant lot next to them, they can't just come and address the planning commission or address the city

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council, city commission, and say, "Hey, I want to do this to my property. you got to give me an exception because I'm an upstanding citizen. That that process there it has to go through again it has to go through the public process. We have we have that

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written into our code. We have uses in lowdensity residential that are allowed and if that is an allowed use then there is a development order application that they can apply for to do that. Then they it gets before the city planning commission the city commission in order

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for that decision to be made. If it gets turned down because it was not per code, then they can appeal it. There's an appeal process. And if you know there's a whole there's a whole process for that. So

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>> So say I wanted to uh ask y'all to look at parking regulations for new construction in commercial along 77. At what point in time would be appropriate for me to make that motion? So at the end of the agenda where there's planning

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report that's where we have that discussion and you can say I would like to have this on the next agenda so that we can have a discussion on that on what we need to do with this. You can even recommend that staff take a stab at it

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and see if it can be made better and then bring it forward as a discussion item and then you can direct it to to go forward make more changes and then you know we can smmith everything. If you'd like to see the agenda change so that

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there's a commissioner's report opportunity at the end, we can certainly do that to make it clear when >> the business section, even if we don't use it, there's a chance. So you don't have to go back and amend the current agenda during the meeting. If there was a line item on there like discussion or

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however you want to put it. >> So there are a couple things you can do. Well, you can just have a standing item that's, you know, amendment of the agenda, modification of the agenda. So you can add new items or take things off, ask that things be tabled. Um, or we can add a commissioner's report so that any one of you can say, "I want to

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discuss this." Whether I want to discuss it right now or I want to direct staff to do do some information, get us some information and bring it back on our next agenda. We can do it. Again, there's a lot of different ways we can do it. It's really up to y'all what you would prefer. >> I think the commissioner's report sounds good. I think that's something I think I

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would like to see. >> Motion for that. >> We need a motion that right now that we need adjust the agenda for that or is that just the need for that? I think we all >> we just add the agenda because all you have to do is notify the public ahead of time that that's going to be on the agenda. So as long as we're doing that the right way, we're good. >> As staff, we create the agenda for you

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and so we can add that as a line item standing line item. >> If there's no reports, we just move on. But if it's already on there >> just like it's planning director's report. So that is exactly the the same thing >> because the sunshine law ties your hands

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and really prohibits you from discussing I don't know and planning business and any other venue. I do think every commissioner has a right to add anything they want to the agenda because this is really this venue is your only opportunity under the sunshine law >> to have those conversations. So unless

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you bring it up and there's no other way for you to bring it to everyone's attention except in a really in a public meeting. So anyway, >> I hope so. We will Vicki will add that to your next agenda. Okay. Um, one other thing that I wanted

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to continue my my thought on that I remembered is that you can you can add conditions in your decision for a recommendation to the plant, the city commission. Does that make sense? So when you make your motion to approve

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with conditions that those conditions go on to the city commission, now they can choose not to approve those conditions or they can add to those conditions of approval when they approve it or deny it. But it it is when they deny an

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application, they have to have reasons as to why it is being denied. It can't just be, oh, I we we denied it. Period. That's it. End of story. There has to be reasons, findings as to why that denial

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is being made. Does that make sense? Right. >> It is very helpful feedback you can provide. Yeah. >> I have one thing I want to add just uh you are required to have the item is still before you until you make a vote.

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Just under the ethics laws and the sunshine laws, you have a duty to vote on every item unless you have a conflict of interest. And this is a stupid example, but I want to bring it up because I've heard it before. Um with regard to approval of the minutes say um you are required to vote on approval of

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the minutes even if you were not at that meeting where of the meeting of the minutes that are being presented. Um, it's a ministerial act and really it's one that is saying I yes I I am trusting that the the clerk transcribed or

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prepared these minutes in accordance with with what actually happened and it's relying on your members who were at the meeting uh trusting that they have reviewed those minutes and can say yes this is this is what happened this is an accurate record of what we did or what we didn't do in those cases. So

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>> you don't abstain if you're absent. >> You cannot abstain if you are absent. You can only abstain if you have a conflict of interest and an absence is not a conflict. >> Apparently, you can vote for yourself too. >> That is not a conflict. Under under the ethics laws, a conflict of interest is

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something that puts money in your pocket or takes money out. So, it is a pecun pecuniary specifically a monetary uh benefit or loss to you is what creates a conflict. >> All right. Any other questions on that

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on motion? So, what So, we went through what happens if there is no second. I think we've gone over um what happens if a motion fails um a little bit. We'll go through these a little bit more. So, a motion fails if it does not receive the required number of concurring votes.

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Under the ULDC, planning commission action requires four concurring votes. A failed motion to deny does not automatically mean approval. and a failed motion to approve does not automatically mean denial

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the item the item remains before the commission until another proper motion or procedural action is taken so I think we've had a lot of discussion on that you have questions about that I want to give a really concrete example if there are only four of you a quorum we need four of you to be here to create a

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quorum to have a meeting if there are four of you here and the the motion to approve an application is 31 it fails because there are not four of you who voted yes on it. Um, so that's one why a quorum is important, but in

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some cases it can create a situation where the motion still fails because there aren't enough of you >> um to move that motion forward under your LDC. That's not Robert's rules. That's specific to your >> UC. We need a majority of the board, not

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a majority of the board that's here. correct quorum to have the meeting, four of you to be here for the meeting, and four to pass on any motion. So, that becomes tricky when there's only four of you here. It means you have to act unanimously on every single item. Um,

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and sometimes that's unfortunate pressure. Um, but that's the reality. >> Is that a valid time to ask for a different meeting or >> continuence? >> Absolutely. with the motion because we're already a motion in this already

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discussing it. You can't turn into its, right? We'd have to fail it and then come with another motion >> or withdraw it >> and recess the meeting or continue the meeting or postpone the meeting. There's a couple different avenues. If you think you can get if it's let's say an application at the very beginning of the

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meeting and you think you can get a fifth or sixth member here if we delayed this for 20 minutes you could recess the meeting for 20 minutes say >> so if we just show up here and there's only four of us one day we got five things to do is it fair to ask for

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continuence of the entire meeting >> if you can take care of business it's important because it's important to the applicants if you can take care of I would prefer that you try and do so rather than just, oh, there's only four of us. Let's postpone everything. I would prefer you try. Um, and if it

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looks like you can't get there, you can't get there. But maybe, again, under Robert's rules, you have an opportunity to look for conditions or a way to build consensus among the four of you that are here. >> I would at least try. >> I wouldn't postpone right out of the gate. >> So, if there's four of us here, we need

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to try to have a meeting. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> You're here. it's important to the applicants and I mean they are relying on you to take some sort of action and now if you if it looks like their application is going to fail. They don't want that either and so I don't know that they would object to a continuence

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or a recess that buys them more time. >> Um but I to answer the question if you see there's only four of you postpone everything. I I would prefer you not take that approach. It gives you an opportunity too to ask for additional information if you're not

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all for favor. Those that aren't can ask for additional information and postpone to the next meeting or a date certain and in hopes that you'll have a full commission. Then you have the

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opportunity to to have that >> will it >> or three or whatever >> concern you or have any problem if I leave four now I need to pick up a prescription so I >> I'm going to basic right now but you

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still have enough voting on any >> and we're not making any decisions tonight so >> okay well whatever you were going to send us something weren't you >> so I I have sent 13 I've sent it to staff. I just haven't made it way.

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>> My bad. I didn't get my 13 rules for ethics. You'll get a sunshine law and public records primer. You'll get a quasi judicial sort of summary why it what it is, what it why it's important. And I'm going to also send you a script. So for the order of a quasi judicial

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hearing, the chairman opens the chairman swears in all or the attorney swears in all the witnesses. Procedurally, this is when you make a motion. This is when you receive staff reports. This is when you ask questions. This is when you invite questions. >> Ladies, gentlemen, >> thank thank you, Commissioner Ashbrook.

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>> Have a good evening. >> We spoke earlier about people electronically calling in or attending meetings. That is something we that's a tool we can use when we like say we yeah only for in person, but if we know there's an important agenda item, that way we we have that tool. I don't know

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if we all knew we had that tool. >> We can do electronic attendance if we know there's a big item >> on there instead of just saying, "Hey, I can't make it." It is legally permissible. Yes, you do have to make a motion to authorize the electronic attendance of that person. Um that's

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required again by your city code. >> Um but if you have done that procedural step, it is create you have to have a physical quorum of at least four to allow a fifth >> to participate. >> Do you have to do that at the very beginning or can you do that in the moment too? >> I think you could do it in the moment too if it happened that way. I'd prefer

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it happen at the beginning >> um so that that fifth is there for >> all of the applications that need to be heard. >> But your agenda >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we'll know we'll know who those people are. They'll generally say, "Hey,

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we're calling we're going to call in." I will say as a practical matter having called in to some meetings before it is really difficult just because of the acoustics of this room and the facilities we have. It is really hard to hear what is going on and to participate

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in a meaningful way. Yes, they they are authorized to do it and yes they can be called on to make a vote but it is really really difficult as the one who is not in the room to really understand and appreciate what's being said. Any

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other questions with that? Okay. So, types of motions commissioners may use. So, this is where we we pretty much covered this as well. So, the main motion brings an item item forward for action. Amend motion changes wording or

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conditions in a motion. Substitute motion replaces the original motion with a different motion. Refer or commit sends an item for additional review. Postpone to a definite time. Continues consideration to a certain

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date. Table temporarily sets aside an item generally for a more urgent urgent matter. I think does everybody understand what those mean? >> Yes. is the original maker of the motion though. They're the only ones who can

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amend or substitute. Correct. >> Correct. If they um if if you make a motion >> and then you go into your discussion, it's seconded. You go into discussion and then you're like, "Well, I want to amend my motion." You're the one that

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would need to amend it. If somebody else wants it said a different way, then they would and you agree with them. I'm just saying then you would say I withdraw my motion. >> They can substitute >> and they can substitute that.

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>> You still have to withdraw the original motion that the person who made it would either have to withdraw it or amend it. >> Correct. >> So just be thinking about the these things when when you are and maybe this is a list that we have for them as well

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or is it in your narrative or your >> It's in the cheat sheet you provided on >> cheat sheet. Okay. So, so you'll have a cheat sheet. >> You need us to we can laminate them for you and have one up there for you. Um,

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okay. So, amending a motion. So, going going to your point, Commissioner Evans, it's you know, a motion may be amended before the final vote. Just remember that. You can't go back and amend a motion that's been voted on. Okay.

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Amendments may be may add words, remove words, or substitute wording. The amendment should be clear and specific. The amendment is voted on before the main motion unless handled through another process. Now, let me let me

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explain something on this because there in in my previous job, there was a planned community and it um it was a new zone. It was a mixed waterfront zone was what it was. And it was the first time that

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the city had applied that zone to any property or anybody any developer land owner um came in to develop according to that zone. There were a myriad of problems with it and um the applicant

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had come forward to the meeting and with to the city council and they made a motion and in that discussion so they made a motion it was seconded then they had conversation

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a discussion amongst each other and with the applicant and the applicant asked well hey while we're still debating on amending ing. They had to one of the conditions was that they had to go back and change their um development

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agreement which had to include according to the code design guidelines. And so the applicant asked the city council during that discussion to allow them to submit a prelim preliminary plat and a

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site plan while they were amending their development agreement. and the city council approved that motion or that a that amendment to the motion and it create so you have to make sure you're you're really thinking about those amendments because they do need to be

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very clear and specific and I had to go through a review of a preliminary plat and a site plan with elevations and architectural designs. I didn't have a development agreement to review it against because it had not been approved

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by the city council and so I kind it was it was a nightmare. So your motions not only are spec need to be clear and specific, but those motions help us as staff to apply what it is that's being

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approved. And so I I really ask that you pay attention to amending those motions to make sure it is very clear and concise as to what it is that you're asking for that on that amendment in that motion.

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Um going any questions on this one? I think we had that. So discussion and review criteria. We again we've talked about this discussion should stay focused on the application before the commission comments should be

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tied to the applicable review criteria relevant standards may include the comprehensive plan staff report application materials and information in the record personal remarks should be avoid avoided. You don't like it just

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because it's a mobile home park. None of us want mobile home parks in in our city or next door to us. However, that's not a reason to that's that's more of a personal opinion

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um than it is, you know, just because you don't like something. Those type of remarks need to be avoided. Our code allows and state code allows mobile home parks to go into any zone

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and our code is more restrictive but I think the state code trumps our code on that right does so because of affordable housing there's a lack of it in our country mobile homes are an affordable housing option and so just if just

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because we don't want it there doesn't mean it can't go unfortunately. >> But we could amend potentially amend our design standards to mobile home parks to make them where they would be more appealing. >> Maybe have common area parks or

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>> or buffers or if there are some known or anticipated nuisances or incon incompatibilities with other land uses, you can have conditions that would address those. >> Absolutely. So everywhere I will just say moving to the quasi judicial standard. This is not

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a Robert's rules rule. Um competent substantial evidence is what's required to support any decision whether it's an approval or a denial. Um if we are ever sued or challenged the first place the judge looks. He doesn't get to make a new decision. He's going to look at the

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record and was this decision supported by the record and is that record confident and substantial? Is it just someone who lives in another county who comes and says I don't like this or I don't like I don't like this person or I don't like this

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type of development or is it the next door neighbor who is saying I'm not against development but here are the ways it's going this particular development is going to affect me. It doesn't have to be an expert, but someone who has um factbased and not

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just purely emotional uh testimony to provide is what's considered competent and substantial. >> What is the procedure for if there is something that is I don't use the word personal but obviously we are citizens of this city too >> of stepping down to be part of public discussion. Is there any way to do that

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if something is in front of us that affects us? Is there a way to excuse oursel during that to go be part of the public discussion? >> So that's that's a tricky question to answer. Um and I'm not going to do a very good job of answering it satisfactorily.

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So in the land use context, you do have potentially a conflict of interest if you the commissioner um will be affected by the approval or denial of an application in a way that is unique to you and not shared by the community at large. In that case, you do have a

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conflict. And because you are an appointed board, the state laws say that you must abstain. And I will have to go back and check to see if it allows you to participate. There's different rules for elected and appointed. When you

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can't participate at all, and when you can participate, but you can't vote. And I'm >> you're catching me cold, so I don't know what the rule is that applies specifically to you. I'm sure there's a rare instance, but I mean I I own some property. Beside me, there's something going on. Obviously, there is a conflict

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there if it's something I vote on, but how do I >> So, it it's it's my advice and this is conservative advice that if if you are in that situation, I would request actually that you not only step down uh but step out of the room for that entire discussion um and not participate uh

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because even as a commissioner who is not acting as a commissioner, you still can influence a vote from the back of the room. you can make this kind of motion to that all of them can see and know exactly where you stand on the matter. And to me, that's that goes

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against the spirit of the law, even if it is authorized by the law. >> I don't I don't know if it's in the ULDC, but some or even in the state code requires those that have a conflict to step down and out of the room. I know in

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one of the jurisdictions that I worked in, it was written into the code that they actually had if there was a conflict, they had to leave the room completely. >> Yeah, they're just the state law, the commission on ethics has a form for this case, but they've got different rules

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for elected and appointed officials and I just don't remember, but I can find out and I will let you know that for sure. But in that context, Chad Chad was able to call us because he knew he wouldn't be voting and he calls other commissioners to say that he's not going to be voting because he's he's got a

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conflict of interest. >> He can't call you. What he has to do is fill out a memorandum, a voting conflict that gets filed with the clerk and so it can be included in the agenda package or he can state on the record, I have a conflict and here's what it is. question

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is he calls us beforehand because he knows he's not going to vote and speaks his opinion like a regular citizen. That would be a violation of sunshine. >> Yeah. The the sunshine law still covers you because it is a matter foreseeably to come before you and you are still a commissioner.

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>> It makes you right, >> but you can still follow you can still follow what Amy's the the memorandum. I mean if you want to >> but even >> put it as a item of the record. Well, just for clarity and under those circumstances though, I I I filed the member and I put it myself like that

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this is not something I don't think it's ever going to occur to me, but I hope it doesn't. But even if I did that, I don't have the ability to come as a citizen and speak about my own issues later. I have to leave the room. >> You might. That's why that's why I in one in one circumstance you can still participate and then the other one you

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can't and I don't remember which pot you fall into. So I just have to follow up on that. >> Oh, that's fine. Like I said, hope it never happens, but it was just something I was as a citizen. Do I excuse myself and I can still speak as I understand that there's some weight going? Yeah, he's still here. You know, >> you could presumably go speak to the

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commission like the >> L Haven City Commission >> as well too. Yeah, we're just approving and recommending. So, there's there's there's there's avenues there. I just didn't know if there was a a way to do that or what the process was if there was ever a conflict with one of us. >> Maybe it depends.

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>> Okay. >> To be continued on that front. >> No, we're good. It's a good It's a very good question. Next time just get hired on a staff and then you just don't get >> I'm just kidding. It's It's an ethical thing for me.

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>> Um >> Okay. For appointed officers, you must abstain from voting, but you are not prohibited from otherwise participating. >> So, you could speak on your own behalf as a citizen. >> You must disclose the nature of your conflict before participating in the discussion or influencing the decision

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in any way. There you go. >> So, it's good to sit here. >> Not that you have any decisions. >> Yeah. I hope >> but it becomes part of the record that then the city commission can be can be um privy to.

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>> I'll include that form and the list of things that they send you. So, you've got it. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Voting and announcing the result. So, commissioners should vote for or against the motion as stated. The chair should clearly announce whether the

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motion passed or failed. If a commissioner has a conflict of interest or believes they may need to abstain that issue should be stated clearly and handed handled under applicable legal and procedural requirements which Amy is going to send to you. The minutes should

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reflect the motion and the vote. Uh I think that's pretty clear. Um do you have any questions? Okay. Then just a sunshine law reminder. I think it it sunshine the sun the law

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can be I included it in your packet. It's somewhat hard to read and understand. Um please if you have questions don't hesitate to ask them, but they are um public planning commission meetings are public meetings.

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Reasonable notice must be provided. Minutes must be promptly recorded and open to public inspection. Informal action must be taken at a public meeting. Form, did I say formal, right? Not informal. Formal action must be taken at a public meeting. The Sunshine

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Law handout is included was included in your packet. So, just use that as reference um and make sure that you're up to speed on that. So, and then I added this is just for um

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Oh, two on there. Oh, I didn't change the t the the top. Um, the city of Orlando's prel parliamentary procedures made simple is included as additional reference. I didn't want to go into any of that because it just breaks down that

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parliament procedure a little bit better and more in a nice little cute packet. Um it is a supple it is supplemental and it does not replace these cities comprehensive plan Florida law or any adopted city ordinances. Just keep that

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in mind. That was just an example of parliamentary procedure. So um do you have questions? I think you've we've had a great discussion and I really appreciate all of the questions

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and um items that we've discussed. What are your thoughts in in doing more of this and what I what topics do you want to discuss? I think you and I previously discussed

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whether it's this format or a workshop >> being face to face with the commissioners a little bit to you know obviously they're getting much more feedback at commission meetings than we are getting >> yes >> here. Um >> and I said I'd have an answer for you today but Chris has been out so I haven't had a chance to sit down with

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him. I meet with him next week >> so um then I can draft a an email to y'all and um find out more about that. I don't think that would be a bad idea. I don't know the rules with the city commission as far as it would be a it

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would have to be a workshop um just to sit there and hash it out between commissioners versus commissioners. I don't know if that's necessarily a healthy way to do that, but if we sat down and talked about um the comprehensive plan, I think after next

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Tuesday, we'll have some direction and then we can potentially set up a workshop and we can have that conversation. But I think that would be something where would be an open forum to discuss kind of the things that you were that we had talked about. Um but

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having that as a topic because I think a lot of that is relative in that you know being on the same page with with the commission what I think there's a lot of disconnect between city commissions and councils and city planning commissions

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um because not you can't as according to the sunshine law you can't talk to each other about items so it makes it very difficult unless you're in a public meeting and So that would be a forum to be able to to have those discussions.

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Um, but I will say the sunshine law does not cover you and the city commission. So you can talk to the city commissioners all day long about changes you want to make to the ULDC or questions you have about the comp plan. If you have a joint workshop, the sunshine law, however, does apply to you

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in any of the matters that are foreseeably to come before you in that joint workshop. I was say so but say Aaron and I were talking to Mayor Lowry. Are we under Sunshine because we're now in the same commission but we're talking about the same thing. Is that now a sunshine law? >> You and Aaron are covered by the

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sunshine law. So you need to only be talking about planning matters um at at an advertised meeting. If you and Aaron are talking about a I a change to chapter 46 of the code of ordinances regarding what happens in parks conduct

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in city parks, the sunshine law does not apply to you guys there because parks are not your jurisdiction. You can talk to commissioner Lowry, you can talk to commissioner about comp plan things, but the three of you cannot do it together. And it's the two of you are

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covered by the sunshine law. The two of you are covered by the sunshine law. The four of you are covered you and any you plus any commission city commissioner not covered by the sunshine >> but if there's two city commissioners and you >> then they're the same they have a

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problem they have a problem so I think I know you have talked to mayor Lowry about your concerns >> somewhat >> um so those are those are things that you know he can bring up or again we can

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have a workshop of certain items items that you have brought up, we can bring that to a workshop and discuss them. I think the main thing is you want to know where you stand with the commission, right? What

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you know, as Commissioner Ashbrook had said is the commission, city commission doesn't always um approve or deny your recommendation. And so, and that can be really frustrating because you put all this time and effort into making that

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decision um to recommend they approve or deny an application and then they do the opposite of what you're recommending. And so that can be very com very frustrating um on on your part where you're like, "Okay, well, where do we stand?" If you're not going to approve

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what we've recommended you approve, then where do you stand? Those are the kinds of things that you can you you do want to touch base with them and >> they approve denied. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You've guys from from what I've

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>> I meetings are much more emotional and much more personal in nature with the public discussion, >> right? I understand that some of their decisions pivot >> in a different >> on a dime. >> Yeah. It'd be nice to have those discussions with them to see the feed. They're obviously people aren't seeking us out in public to give us their opinions of things, >> right?

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>> Very few people probably know who we are. >> But that way, but the commissioners can't walk through grocery probably without getting hit up with what's going on, >> right? >> So, it'd be nice to see what they're hearing and say, "Hey, look out for this. Let's put this on the agenda and talk about this at some point."

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>> Yeah. So, let me talk to the city manager and see how we go about doing that. And if the city commission is up for that type of a workshop, I I think, you know, it's ultimately up to them. If they want to do that, I would say yes,

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we can invite them, but really it would need to be organized in such a way that, you know, both bodies are aware of what the topics are and and what the concerns are. So, um, but let me talk to them and see if we can petition them to do that.

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So, >> okay. Any Yeah, keep going. >> No, I was going to say coming back to the agenda and Robert's rules. Usually when you would do something, there was always a closing or a if there's nothing on the agenda as far as closing, how do

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we adjurnn a meeting, we just say adjourned. >> Motion to adjurnn. Any member can make a motion to adjurnn or the chairman can call it adjourned. Yeah, I think the end of the meeting I you know there's the planning director's report and then we'll have commissioner reports.

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>> We're going to add that. >> Um um I would recommend doing mine last so that I can help answer some of those and provide some of that direction. Um so we'll so we'll organize that on the agenda. But then if I if I'm done, you guys are

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done, then the meeting just make Yeah, just motion for the agenda to be or the meeting to be done and adjourn or does there need to be a motion? >> Well, under Robert's rules there technically does, but again, >> depending on how formal or not you want to be, you can just adjourn the meeting.

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>> You do have a little bit more discretion with that here. >> I have one thing I want to make sure you guys know before we before we do adjourn or get into other business. your financial disclosures are due J July 1st. Um, and I so you should have received an email from the Florida

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Commission on Ethics. And if you did not, um, you can only file those disclosures electronically. So, we need to make sure that Vicki is giving your names or you at least have a link to sign yourself up and get registered to get into their portal so that you can

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file that disclosure. >> If you need help on that, just call me or I can send you an email. the email, but I just did mine two months ago. So, is it going to >> I like I said, I did it. She signed me up and I got the >> right as soon as you came into office. Um, that may qualify for your annual

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disclosure. It's sort of a there's your annual and then there's the one you do when you come in and right when you go out. Okay. So, it >> the law isn't supposed to require a useless act. So, I want to tell you you don't have to do it again if you did it that recently. Well, >> if I get the email, yeah, I said I didn't get one. I was wondering if that was the >> Okay, that may have been

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>> We'll make sure you get it. >> Okay. >> Any questions? Anything that you want to talk about, bring up good? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, absolutely. I >> Well, I welcome it. Let's talk about it.

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if there's things that need to be changed, please let's make sure that we're we're talking about that. Um I have a I haven't started it yet because I'm still listening. I I hope um Vicki and I have talked about several things

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in the code that need to be changed as well as Amy and I. And so um now that summer's here, vacations are going to be had. So those are going to kind of be put on hold, but Vicki and I will continue to look through the code. Um, I was kind of squirreled when we started

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going through. We're like, well, wait, what about this and what about this? So, I'm all over the place when I when I see something. We and we had just started with the definitions, you know, the definitions. And I'm like, well, wait a second. We can't put code in our definitions. Our definitions should be

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just regular definitions. And so, um, you know, I've seen it. I've seen it happen before, but it's one of those things that was planners want to make sure cleaned up because the definition should not be a a regulating

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thing necessarily. I mean, it is there to define what subdivision means. Um, but it shouldn't, you know, we can reference places in the code for that, but um, you know, development order and development permit, what's what does

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that mean? and it lists those things. It's, you know, so there is a lot of cleanup and a lot of things that need to be done. But I am, my door is always open. Um, give me a call. We can discuss things. Um, we can I have that I I have a spreadsheet that we will add those

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things to. We can then add it to an agenda. We can talk about it, see what it is that you how you want that code amendment to go. we can make notes, make red lines, and then bring it back to you um for discussion and then if there's

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additional changes you want to make and then you can say, "Hey, let's put this as a public hearing and we'll get it going to become an ordinance and go through the public process that way." So, um please read the code. If it does

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not make sense, then it pro if it doesn't make sense to you, it probably does not make sense to anybody. And so we need to make sure that we are understanding it clearly. Um yes, interpretations can vary vastly in land

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use code but and and Amy knows this. That's why we get re, you know, that's why we get determinations from our city attorney is so that the legalities of that interpretation are solid. And if it isn't, then maybe that's where we need

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to change the code to make sure that it is legal in the sense that she can defend it if something goes wrong. So, any questions, please don't hesitate to call me. Um, we have a lot of work to

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do, so pull up your bootstraps and we're going to be getting ready to to dive in. So, please come and participate with the city commission next Tuesday. Um, and

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we would love to to have that discussion with you. So, >> uh, thank you for the time and all the work you put into this. We appreciate it. But that said, um, make a motion for adjournment. >> Okay, there you go. >> Vote. I don't know if you really need a

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vote. No. Where's your gavvel? >> No, it's right there. Oh, come on. Snap that. >> I'm not gonna fool Judge Wner. You mean >> There you go. There you go.