WEBVTT METADATA Video-Count: 1 Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=NZ7WbsiPkws Part: 1 1 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:24.840 Bobby, you've been here for most of the past 30 years or so, right, sir? How many times has the issue of zoning come up, bubbled up to your level and to the commission level in the past? >> This is about the second time. Okay. Not very often. 2 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:41.360 Questions? Thank you, Mr. Baker. All right, with that, uh, city manager, would you like to introduce our speaker tonight? >> Yes, sir. For tonight, we'll have a Mr. Ray Greer with Design West Group. He will be here to discuss, uh, differences in zoning and land use and hopefully 3 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:57.520 answer any questions that the commission and the public may have. Mr. Greer, welcome to Lynn Haven. Sir, we appreciate you coming tonight and giving us this presentation. Thank you. And I am a a land use consultant. This is what I do and I've got 31 years experience doing planning, local government planning, comprehensive 4 00:05:57.520 --> 00:06:13.520 plans, land development codes. So, this is what I do. I did spend a little bit of time looking at your land development code and your comprehensive plan. Um, I did work on parts of your comprehensive plan, updated the data analysis, uh, at the towards the end of last year. 5 00:06:13.520 --> 00:06:28.840 And in doing that, you know, I'd had opportunity to look over your comp plan and then after Chris had, you know, mentioned that y'all had some questions and wanted some more information on zoning, I took a look at your land development code, too. So, I can discuss that also with you. But I think, you know, it's really 6 00:06:28.840 --> 00:06:45.120 good to start with kind of answering the question of where the comp plan came from and why you have land development code, which if you had zoning, it would be in the land development code. Um, the comprehensive plan, so a lot of people they don't realize that the 7 00:06:45.120 --> 00:07:01.840 comprehensive plans, they came about in 1985 through the Florida Growth Management Law, which was Chapter 163, established Chapter 163 Florida Statutes. And in 163, it required every local government, all 411 cities and all 67 counties, 8 00:07:01.840 --> 00:07:19.160 to prepare comprehensive plan. And they had a phased schedule of when this would occur and the local governments had and the the occurred in the '90s, early '90s. So, the city of Lynn Haven adopted probably around '92 their first comprehensive plan. 9 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:36.040 And in one Chapter 163, they have the elements, each element for the comprehensive plan and in that, the future land use element has land use categories. And they had the requirements in 163 and they define, you know, what has to be in the comprehensive plan. But also part of 10 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:51.760 163 and the reason the Growth Management Act was passed in '85, it was a result of a lot of growth that occurred in the '60s and the '70s in Florida and local governments not having proper regulations in place. They they wanted to make sure that every 11 00:07:51.760 --> 00:08:08.200 local government would plan. The comp plan looks out 20 years, plans out 20 years. And so, they wanted to each local government to do this. So, that's why, you know, that came about and it was passed. But as a requirement in Chapter 163, they require that every city 12 00:08:08.200 --> 00:08:24.680 adopt land development regulations and of cities had zoning back then, some didn't, some didn't have anything. And so, it required every local government, it had to be done a year after the comp plan was adopted. So, if the city of Lynn Haven adopted the comp plan in '92, the land development 13 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:40.320 regulations had to be in place that was consistent with Chapter 163 to implement the comp plan. So, that's when the comp the land development regulations came about. And so, that was put in place and then, you know, looking at what they did instead 14 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:56.120 of zoning, what you have is your land use categories. This is some local governments have and there's several cities here in Bay County that have just zone you know, they don't have zoning map or zoning categories, they actually have land use categories like you do. 15 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:11.160 And so, for instance, all your land use categories are also in your land development code, broke up in the districts just like a zoning district would be and then they have requirements in your land development code. And so, you know, as the city has 16 00:09:11.160 --> 00:09:27.960 progressed over the years utilizing this, you know, you follow basically development based on residential and you have low density residential, high density residential, medium density residential, mixed use, you have a commercial category, neighborhood commercial, recreation open space, public 17 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:43.000 institution and then you've got three overlay districts also that, um, go with it and that's also in the comp plan and then also in the land rent land development regulations. And then anything in the land development regulations just has to be consistent with the comp plan. It can be 18 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:58.080 further implemented through the land development code. So, for instance, the state reviews the comp plan. And the state has oversight on the comp plan. You know, we transmitted the comp plan 19 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:14.200 to the the state Department of Commerce, which is the state land planning agency. You know, established in chapter 163, so they conduct their reviews. Now, your land development code is not reviewed by the state. So, your land development code is only done locally. 20 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:29.320 It's passed locally and then it's not reviewed by the state. The only requirement is that it's consistent with chapter 163. So, it does give the local governments leeway of how they actually implement those land development categories that you have that would be your zoning categories if you had 21 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:43.920 zoning. And you know, I don't know how If you want to ask questions into that or if you want me to kind of dive into, you know, kind of what I've reviewed so far or if you want to let the public ask questions and then come 22 00:10:43.920 --> 00:11:01.040 back and answer some of those and kind of look at where your code is now what, you know, if you were to do zoning and what your options would be have to do zoning and what would that look like. So, everyone that's come tonight that 23 00:11:01.040 --> 00:11:18.200 wants to hear about I'm sorry. Everyone I hear in the audience that's come and you're spending part of your evening with us tonight. I thank you for that. If there are questions, certainly, this is very informal. This is not a formal commission hearing, so please raise your hand and when I see you, I'll gladly 24 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:34.720 recognize you. You can come up and ask your questions. The question you've heard is do we want him to go into a deep dive or do we want to, you know, open the floor to just general questions before he kind of gets out of the gate with his presentation. And if 25 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:50.000 you, ladies and gentlemen, are good with it, I'd really like for you to dive into zoning. Kind of give us a zoning 101 and then we can circle back and any questions that anyone has, we'll we'll open the floor and we'll make sure those get addressed and answered. 26 00:11:50.000 --> 00:12:29.160 Yes, sir. Sure, a zoning 101 if you will. >> [laughter] >> All right, so you know, as I mentioned, the comp plan overrides and it's the guiding document and in chapter 163, you know, the comp The comp plan overrides land development code. So, if there's a discrepancy, the 27 00:12:29.160 --> 00:12:44.040 comp plan overrides the land development code. And that's density, intensity, uses, anything that's in the comp plan in those categories. If it's in the comp plan and it's getting consistent with land development regulations, it would override. And that is part of 163. So, the whole 28 00:12:44.040 --> 00:13:00.560 purpose of your land use categories is for you to find on a map and it is your future land use map. It's parcel-based land use map and you've looked at it, you know, it's colors. The residential areas are broken down as I've mentioned. Your future land 29 00:13:00.560 --> 00:13:17.400 use are in those low density, medium density, high density colors and then you have the mixed use. You have your areas that the whole city's planned out in those categories. And the purpose of the comp plan is for those categories to be to establish the use like residential 30 00:13:17.400 --> 00:13:32.480 and then for it to be further implemented in the land development regulations. So, like your comp plan actually has quite a bit of detail in the land use categories, which more detailed than this what was required by 163. 31 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:48.960 Um and I I don't know if somebody did that um to try to implement the land development code cuz you're using your land use categories instead of zoning categories and to basically regulate in the land development code. So, that you know, you have the comp 32 00:13:48.960 --> 00:14:05.280 plan which sits over here and it's the big picture. Plans out 20 years. It's broad, more general. And then you have your land development code is what where your setbacks are, is where, you know, the little stuff is for development that it gets dealt with every day. Your land development code 33 00:14:05.280 --> 00:14:19.400 is, you know, down over here. It's it has a lot more detail per category. A lot more detail per land use category in the land development code. Bobby, Chris, do y'all have any background to that as to why Lynn Haven's 34 00:14:19.400 --> 00:14:38.480 land use code is so ultra detailed? No. I'm just curious. >> Yeah, and it's it's probably I've seen a lot of them. I've seen a lot of local governments with detail. You can remove some of that just cuz you did some of it is not necessary. Um I would leave just the minimum stuff 35 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:55.160 in the comp plan portion for the land use categories and implement it all the way through the land development code. So, the whole intent is once you get to the land development code, then you have your categories and you you've got the same nine categories that you have in the 36 00:14:55.160 --> 00:15:11.360 comp plan, you have three overlay districts and then it goes into it breaks down into several chapters with requirements for intensity, density, the setbacks, parking, you know, breaks it down for commercial and the uses. Now, the only difference would be if you 37 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:26.880 did have zoning you would do it the same way. I mean, you have the same setup. Your land development code is structured the same way as zoning would be. The only thing that zoning is different than what your comprehensive plan is today 38 00:15:26.880 --> 00:15:43.880 on the implement implementation side is your future land use map, which is in your comp plan basically serves as your zoning map cuz those colors that established in the comp plan can't be changed cuz you don't have zoning. So, it is the same categories as those nine categories. 39 00:15:43.880 --> 00:16:00.079 And for instance, you know, some local governments if they do zoning, they might take they might only have one residential category in the comp plan and they might implement that in their land development code through zoning with five or six residential categories. And they might have two or three zoning 40 00:16:00.079 --> 00:16:16.120 categories, you know, they implement commercial. They might have additional you know, more detailed categories in their land development code to implement zoning. And that's the only difference is that you can't change your nine categories. But you're also when you go 41 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:32.680 back and look at the city you're also predominantly built out. I mean, the city of Lynn Haven is 5,000 a little over 5,000 acres and the majority of the city is developed. And so, you'd have to look at, you know, how would you go back and implement 42 00:16:32.680 --> 00:16:49.400 zoning and the, you know, what complications would that have? And given that your structure of your land development code and the comp plan with those nine categories are a little bit more detailed because you do have low density residential, medium density residential and high density residential 43 00:16:49.400 --> 00:17:06.320 and then commercial and neighborhood commercial, you have the categories where you actually can implement just like zoning. You already have that structure. Is there an additional structure layer with zoning versus land use though? For 44 00:17:06.320 --> 00:17:23.120 example, we've had instances recently where we have multi-million dollar waterfront homes and someone's trying to put in a mobile home park right in between them, right? And there's a question of practical use, dual use, impacts of one on the other, not having the infrastructure in place for those 45 00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:39.520 things, right? But when you don't have a proper zoning map is there not more gray area with just a more generic or flexible land use plan? And you do have in your land development code, you do have, you know, landscape, 46 00:17:39.520 --> 00:17:54.480 you do have buffer requirements, you do have compatible use requirements, which dictates buffers too between uses. Now, that and that's in your land development code and that Now, I'll be honest with you, your land development code is is very aged. I mean, it it is ready for an 47 00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:10.840 update. It's very old. But you have, I mean, updating your land development code will accomplish that. Like you could set standards for compatibility and also compatibility between the uses which is important. And you do have that structure in your land development code. 48 00:18:10.840 --> 00:18:28.320 It's just um you could have more language. It is. I mean, your land development code is pretty old. Early '90s? I don't know. I don't know when they created >> [laughter] >> I would say it had to come about in the early '90s. That's when it was required. 49 00:18:28.320 --> 00:18:44.360 And I don't know when they actually adopted the one you have now and it's probably it probably originally was adopted in the early '90s and it's just been amended over the years, which is typically what you've seen. And your land development code, if you look through it, it jumps around, too. I mean, you if you're looking through for 50 00:18:44.360 --> 00:19:00.480 land use categories and trying to implement them, it it jumps all over the place to find stuff. I mean, you could rewrite it and incorporate it into a better format. Bobby, wasn't it '92, sir, that our original plan was established? I think that's the 51 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:16.600 date I saw on it. Okay. And that would make sense. That would fall, you know, in place with the comp plan and the requirements. Um so, I'm of the opinion that our comprehensive plan is in dire need of being updated 52 00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:32.320 and that before we even jump into the the land development regulations that needs to be done first cuz if you don't if you don't have a good comp plan, then you're going to falter when it comes to the LDR. Um do you agree with that? Well, and 53 00:19:32.320 --> 00:19:48.200 your comp plan just got updated. Well, >> It's in the process of being updated. Let's Let's be clear. The reason it got updated cuz we had a state requirement. I've been pinging, not you, but I've been pinging the city for like 3 years that we need to get this updated cuz I know it takes some time. >> Mhm. 54 00:19:48.200 --> 00:20:04.760 And you see where we're at now. Yeah, and you could, you know, given the direction that the city wanted to go in on the land development code, you could update the comp plan and you can do them together. However, you wanted to do it, but you your comp plan could be updated to help remove 55 00:20:04.760 --> 00:20:21.680 some restrictions that you have in your comp plan that really need to be in the land development code. Comp plan has But your comp plan is what drives your LDR. So, you got to make, in my opinion, you got to make sure your comp plan is is where you want it to be before you 56 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:38.680 jump into the LDR. And that's one of the things I've been wanting to do for a while, but you're right. We did update it, but we only updated it to satisfy the state requirements. We never really dove deep into it as far as what do we want in there? Cuz when you read just a few sentences in there, 57 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:54.640 I forget what the actual wording is, but it says like, you know, uh quaint, slow community. And it's like that's changed. Yes. And so, that just tells me there's a lot of stuff and I've reviewed it and I I still 58 00:20:54.640 --> 00:21:11.560 have my file of all the stuff. I went through it and ready to discuss and that was 3 years ago. But anyways, I I I digress, but I guess what I really would like to hear is I'd like to hear like what are the pros and cons of doing zoning in versus the way we do 59 00:21:11.560 --> 00:21:28.080 it now with land use codes and what is the process as far as if we do decide to go to zoning, what would the process be? Sure. And you know, one of the pros of doing zoning is you would 60 00:21:28.080 --> 00:21:45.200 establish additional zoning categories. And it'd have to you'd have to look at it to see whether or not you needed it, but you could implement additional regulations through those categories. You such as if you created more residential categories or you could have more flexibility using those categories. 61 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:59.880 And you could break your land use categories into more zoning categories to be implemented. Um that is a benefit and then to do it, basically what you'd have to do, you have the the structure in your land development code, you would just need to 62 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:16.240 have a zoning map and adopt a zoning map. Now, one of the and I've looked at your future land use map and one of the negatives to that is you look at the other way and if you were to do that, then you're dealing with 63 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:32.400 built neighborhoods. Cuz you know, you don't have a lot of vacant land in these categories. You're dealing with a lot of built neighborhoods and you're going to have to be careful that if you separate the land use, and since you do have three residential land use categories already that separates low density, medium density, 64 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:48.200 and high density. So, you've separated your your low density, your single family homes, your medium density multi-family, all the way up to the high density of apartments and stuff. You've completely separated those now, which a lot of comp plans don't do. You've already done that and you've done it and 65 00:22:48.200 --> 00:23:03.080 it's in your land development code also. So, that is a plus for you. Um it would be it'd be a lot it'd be a lot easier to go to zoning if you only had one residential category cuz you would definitely need zoning categories to implement it. But the way 66 00:23:03.080 --> 00:23:19.240 you've got it structured already, kind of it's already serving as zoning. But you know, as far as the process, you really you really need to get through update the land development code. You would adopt a zoning map and then the only thing with that is that zoning map would stay here. It would not have to go 67 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:34.800 to the state for any approvals, but it would have to be, you know, consistent the zoning categories have to be consistent with the comp plan, which is how every local government typically who has zoning, how they implement it. >> But the comp plan would have to go to the state before we make changes to it. >> Yes, the comp plan does have to go to state for review. The land development 68 00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:53.760 code does not. And what kind of timeline would we be looking at? >> So, you know, if you were to go back, you would have to go back and look through the zoning category or the land use categories you have now and you take a hard look to see 69 00:23:53.760 --> 00:24:10.000 and when you do this, you know, what always happens, especially in a developed area, is you're going to see non-conforming uses. And if you were to try to implement, say, four more zoning residential zoning categories in these areas, you're going to have to be really careful not to create non-conforming 70 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:26.600 uses, uses that would no longer, because they fall under the low density category and you're trying to implement something different in your zoning categories, you've gotten then group the existing stuff into a zoning category. So, the stuff that shows up as on your comp plan on your future land use map 71 00:24:26.600 --> 00:24:42.120 now, you'd have to break that into zones if you wanted something zoned differently than what you currently have with your nine categories. So, you'd have to break the whole city up and and look at that. In doing that, you have to look at what's actually built there. 72 00:24:42.120 --> 00:24:58.240 And then you and you do it through community workshops and public input on the other areas also. So, two questions. Um One, if you were to make a change that kind of conflicted with what that some of those plots currently have, do they 73 00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:14.240 get grandfathered in or they would have to >> non-conforming change. Yeah, and they become non-conforming uses and so, they can get grandfathered in. They get grandfathered, but you do want to prevent you trying to create a lot of non-conforming uses cuz then you're going to have to track it if they get, you know, 74 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:29.600 damaged more than 50% then they lose their non-conforming status. I mean, it's it gets complicated quick. Mhm. And just creating issues. That's why you have to be very careful when if you were to go to zoning that you look at how the zoning 75 00:25:29.600 --> 00:25:46.360 categories you create and how you apply it in the city. So, one of the things Mr. Baker brought up was about the overlays. So, if we go to zoning, you can't have overlays? Yeah, you can still have overlay districts. >> Okay. Okay. That must have changed at some point. 76 00:25:46.360 --> 00:26:02.080 >> can have overlay districts inside your zoning. Um you can have districts that lay over your zoning categories. And then but you know, you have and it's very unique. Now, the overlay districts, you have them in your comp plan, too, which is unique. Somebody established them in the comp plan. 77 00:26:02.080 --> 00:26:18.040 Um you don't see that a lot with the overlay districts, but it works. [laughter] I mean, it's also in your land development code. It works. So, one of the things that a member of our community brought up to us is we got a lot of we got people that complain we have too many gas stations. 78 00:26:18.040 --> 00:26:33.880 So, when one comes up, they're like, "Oh, great, another gas station being built." But what was brought to us was if we went to zoning, you could limit how many certain things. Is that true or do you know? I mean, the uses the uses are established and 79 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:48.920 they're going to be established in zoning or in in your comp plan land development regulations either way. If you were going to limit them, you could limit them either way. So, you could limit >> You could limit them in your land development code if you wanted to. So, you could we could do it right now the way we're currently set up. Yeah, and you need to talk to your city attorney 80 00:26:48.920 --> 00:27:04.640 about that before you do it, but yeah, you could. Okay. I mean, you that is a possibility. It creates problems, but I mean, it's it's a legal it's more of a legal issue. You have the ability to do it in the in the land development code. Well, you said you've been doing this 81 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:19.800 for 31 years. After doing a little bit of a crash test or crash course Lynn Haven 101, right? Into all of our planning documents, what is your professional recommendation? I would um I would update the comp plan, the categories. I 82 00:27:19.800 --> 00:27:36.080 would go ahead and if you want to set a different vision for what the comp plan was set at. Cuz you're planning this document, it's 20 years out. You're looking 20 years. So, I'd take another hard look at that and and you know, make those changes now if you want 83 00:27:36.080 --> 00:27:53.000 to do that and I would reduce some of those categories cuz you have too much detail in the categories themselves in the comp plan and I would not do zoning. I'd keep your land use categories as you have them applied in the city just because I think it'd be more complicated to try to do zoning cuz 84 00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:10.280 you're so you know, you're so established and you've got so much development already on the ground. I think it'd be more difficult trying to implement it than it would be to leave what you got and update your land development code. The land development code needs to be completely rewritten. And I think you 85 00:28:10.280 --> 00:28:25.840 could accomplish a lot of what you're wanting and I would do it, you know, through workshops, through public input. I'd you know, the comp plan and land land development code both ways and open it up and I would work that out, you know, what the city wants to as 86 00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:42.679 a community wants to accomplish in this and I'd update both of them on based on that. It almost seems like to me the way we're doing it now that there's a little more flexibility in certain areas. Like let's say someone wants to come and change something from 87 00:28:42.679 --> 00:28:58.320 residential to mixed use or commercial or something and there's an area that's kind of building up and it's like, "Okay, now that seems to conform to it." But 10 years ago, it may not have conformed to it. So, is it would that be a correct statement? It seems 88 00:28:58.320 --> 00:29:13.720 you get a little bit more flexibility by doing the way we're doing it now. Yeah, and you know, that that is the reason that the state mandates the comp plan updates. It's for local governments to take a, you know, a look at where they're growing, how they're growing, and is there changes that need 89 00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:31.240 to be made to direct the growth. And some local governments, you know, they annex a lot or they've gotten into a pattern where they annex a couple thousand acres since the last comp plan update, change the whole dynamics of which way the city's growing, and they have to they need to address that in their long-range plan. But then 90 00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:46.800 that filters back down to your land development code because you do implement everything through those categories. But your categories in your land development code can be more restrictive. They can be more restrictive than the comp plan. They just can't provide So, if your low density is less than 91 00:29:46.800 --> 00:30:01.840 five units an acre, the land development code can't say six units an acre. You You know what I'm saying? It's the intensity and the the intensity for commercial that's established in the comp plan and the density in the residential categories, that is 92 00:30:01.840 --> 00:30:18.760 what cannot be ex- exceeded inside the land development code. You can implement more requirements, more stricter requirements, which your land development code does than if you just used your comp plan. And how often has it been your experience across Florida are the local 93 00:30:18.760 --> 00:30:35.400 municipalities updating these plans? So, the the comp plans get updated every 7 years. They're on a schedule that state keeps. So, the state mandates comp plans get updated every 7 years. So, basically what happens within every 10 years, everybody will update their comp 94 00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:52.360 plans. That schedule will run. Every local government is phased through it and they begin that they're always in that process. So, somebody's always updating their comp plan. The land development codes, for the most part, until something arises that dictates update, most of them do 95 00:30:52.360 --> 00:31:08.080 not get updated. It usually takes something where annexation, new developments, staff pulling their hair out, you know, citizens, you know, going crazy on, you know, certain regulations that are in there. They don't get updated. They get patched to work. 96 00:31:08.080 --> 00:31:24.320 And it looks like what And it's typical. It looks like what Lynn Haven said this had a lot of patches over the years in the land development code. They kind of just left the same structure and they've added stuff as stuff has come up. And you can clearly see that when you update the land development code, you can make it 97 00:31:24.320 --> 00:31:40.920 a a better docu- better document, better structured document than what it is. Easier to find, easier to implement the categories, the land use categories, the requirements, you know, for development. And what kind of subject matter expertise would you recommend we bring 98 00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:57.679 in for a major overhaul of our current documents? You know, I would look for somebody who does That's what they do. That's what they specialize in is comp plans and land development codes. And that's the important part is really getting somebody that understands it and can do the public 99 00:31:57.679 --> 00:32:12.679 outreach, too, cuz that's definitely what you want. You want to build a Have the public engaged, have staff engaged, have the commission engaged, so everybody's going in the same direction. What about in terms of community subject matter experts? Realtors, um 100 00:32:12.679 --> 00:32:28.880 educators, DOT people. I mean, who all do you bring on to that canoe, right, as you're doing these workshops and overhauls and kind of tiger teams? Yeah, and you know, if the city has a lot of state roads that they want DOT, and you can invite them to come, too, and you know, do some of these workshops and 101 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:44.480 meetings. You can bring the other state agencies in. You can have the other local governments or the county, you know, also participate. And realtors, I mean, you know, if you're doing workshops related to growth and re- you know, rewriting the land development code, you definitely want 102 00:32:44.480 --> 00:33:00.040 people who are developers, realtors, people who are in that market, who are seeing the trends of what's going on, you know, where development is pushing to, where's, you know, the next big subdivision coming, cuz it you know, that stuff drives development, for sure. 103 00:33:00.040 --> 00:33:21.160 And conservationists as well, right? It's a whole mixed slate of subject matter experts you need to bring in. Definitely. What kind of questions does the the audience have tonight? Zach, come on up. Good evening. Well, my first question, since we're 104 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:37.840 kind of on the topic of it, is when we're developing a comp plan, um talked about the complexity. And I kind of think of comp plan sort of like the Constitution, right? Like you want it simple, you want it clean, you want it to have the boundaries in it, but you 105 00:33:37.840 --> 00:33:54.000 don't want so much complexity that's going to tie your hands and and everything like that. You really want that responsibility coming down to the city, so you can change it as much as you want, kind of like what we're doing with the uh um the committee going back through the charter, right? You want that charter to 106 00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:11.280 be as simple as possible, so that you guys have the ability to change ordinances and these are just the the boundaries that keep it in place. So, would it be better when we're redesigning the comp plan to go to single use categories? So, just comp plan that has residential, commercial, 107 00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:28.240 and industrial, conservation, city use, things like that with a single generality of it, have some description in it, but then allow the city to have that complete and control to have R1, R2, R3, coastal residential, you know, mixed use, things 108 00:34:28.240 --> 00:34:46.159 like that, and go to more of that design, so that we could update the UDLC, you know, every 5 years if we wanted to and not have to go back to the state to change it. And that's a very good question. Um again, you know, with the comp plan, so and I do agree that, you know, you 109 00:34:46.159 --> 00:35:01.080 have a lot more detail in your land use categories in the comp plan, the future land use element, than you need. Um if you did like what he's saying, drop those nine categories and only have residential, commercial, industrial, open recreation, open space, 110 00:35:01.080 --> 00:35:16.800 conservation, have your basic categories that you're required, then you would have to do zoning. You would have to adopt zoning even to keep the nine categories that you currently have. And you could look at that. I mean, that could be an option if you implemented your zoning holding 111 00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:32.200 where the locations of those nine categories are now. And then update your land development code to be consistent with it. But then you would have two different maps. That is an option. I mean, that is something that you could look at. 112 00:35:32.200 --> 00:35:53.680 Thank you, sir. Any other questions tonight? Mr. Bashir. I've got about three different things. One, if you um make a new zoning map and you have vacant properties within there and you're more restrictive with this 113 00:35:53.680 --> 00:36:11.160 zoning map, how does that affect the property owner's right to develop that property at that point going forward? That's first question. Answer that for you on You want to answer his up front. He's an old engineer. He's going to get It'd be too much if you you try to tackle three at 114 00:36:11.160 --> 00:36:26.600 once. >> Yeah, that's not [laughter] a problem. So, in Florida Statutes chapter 166, that governs local governments. It governs, you know, how local governments adopt zoning. It governs how they adopt ordinances, resolutions. 115 00:36:26.600 --> 00:36:42.960 So, in 166, to adopt zoning, adopt regulations like he's mentioning where the city is doing it, not not the landowner, and they're placing it on, you know, this property, which you would be doing if the city wanted, you have to notice the property owners. You have to 116 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:57.840 notice each one of them in writing that this is ongoing. And so, that is a requirement by statute. That is part of the process to do it. And so, you do get in I mean, you do have to be careful um of not overly restricting what was 117 00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:13.600 currently had because Bert Harris Act, you know, regulates taking of property, taking of development rights. So, that does come into play and that's based on taking of development rights from a local government, from a property owner. You just have to evaluate when you do this, you know, making sure that 118 00:37:13.600 --> 00:37:28.960 if you establish he say he had, you know, high-density residential on 10 acres and you wanted to take and make it low-density residential, then that, you know, that creates a problem and down zones his property and he possibly could have a Bert Harris Act. I mean, it's certain stuff like 119 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:45.640 that that you had you have to be look you know, you have to look at and you have to be cautious of. Sir. Did that answer your question, Johnny? Yeah, pretty much. Um I I think one of the things that drives this is and I hate to use mobile homes 120 00:37:45.640 --> 00:38:00.880 as an example, but everybody says we don't want mobile homes next to us. Well, in low-density residential, there's really not any prohibition that I'm aware of against a manufactured home or a mobile home. Um and it was my understanding that with 121 00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:17.680 zoning, you could get more restrictive and say you've got to have this type of construction and this, this. So, you get more restriction in that zoning than you do in a land use map. And I'm wondering if that's what zoning would accomplish if we were to institute zoning underneath our land use. 122 00:38:17.680 --> 00:38:33.480 The way I see it, you've got comp plans up here that encompasses everything, then land use, and then drill down to details to zoning. That's in my mind how the the system works. But when you get down to that detail, um is that where you'd put the restrictions in to say what can actually 123 00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:52.240 be done on the property? That's a That's another good question, too, and then something that you've got to look at your land development code to understand this, but so, for instance, again, with the way your land development code is set up using your nine land use 124 00:38:52.240 --> 00:39:09.040 categories, and then it's got a lot more restrictions in your land development code than those nine categories have in your comp plan. You have the basis of that. You already have that. It's The only thing zoning would change like if you change did zoning today, you would have a separate map. And if you held the same 125 00:39:09.040 --> 00:39:24.640 categories, you would have a map you they'd be called zoning districts. All the requirements in your land development code would exist under zoning. They They exist today under the land use. You implement them the exact same way. You implement them the same way that a city with zoning already does. You're already doing it. And you 126 00:39:24.640 --> 00:39:40.640 do have requirements for like he's mentioning, I saw, you know, flipping through your land development code today, I saw requirements that restrict on in single-family areas, they they restrict a house to be 30 ft wide. Have a minimum 20 ft lot requirement and 127 00:39:40.640 --> 00:39:55.280 they have a 30 ft wide structure and it does address the mobile homes and it has roof pitches. And so, you know, that will limit certain types of of homes inside those areas. That's it's in your land development code now. You have those restrictions in there. 128 00:39:55.280 --> 00:40:12.040 And is there within that regard of more specific detail or clearer requirements to Johnny's Mr. Bashir's point? Is there a more beneficial path or option in zoning? Cuz what I hear you saying is you can have those same type of 129 00:40:12.040 --> 00:40:27.520 requirements in the land use. >> you do. And you have them now. You don't necessarily need it in zoning, but is there any part of zoning that would be beneficial as that kind of Well, you can accomplish I guess what I'm saying is you can accomplish 130 00:40:27.520 --> 00:40:43.840 basically anything you want to accomplish in zoning through that you would think you would do in zoning. You already you can do that through your land development code. Long as it operates inside those nine categories. And if you're wanting to break them down to more distinct categories, then you would zoning would benefit you to do that. 131 00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:59.080 So, basically having more restrictions on the individual categories, that can be done now in your land development code. You don't have to have zoning to do that. And you actually do your land development code actually does that. And has those restrictions. And it has a lot of restrictions about what can occur 132 00:40:59.080 --> 00:41:17.440 in the single-family low-density categories. It could probably use some additional updating and It definitely needs to be updated. It needs to be updated or rewritten. Cuz it is very hard. It jumps around. It's very hard to keep following 133 00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:32.080 all the the different parts of it. Like a patchwork quilt. >> [laughter] >> It's all over the place. Maybe this is the last question maybe this is not the right forum for this, but for like for commercial properties 134 00:41:32.080 --> 00:41:48.880 there's landscaping requirements. For low-density residential I'm not aware of any real landscaping requirements such as when they come in to develop a lot there's no prohibition of them removing let's say heritage trees. That type of thing that I'm aware of that I don't 135 00:41:48.880 --> 00:42:05.360 know of. Um is this the place to implement that or would that just be a ordinance that the city would pass to say a tree ordinance more or less or do you do it in land use or zoning? That That requirement's in your land development code. So, you do have 136 00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:20.640 um they do have protected trees that are defined in land development code. You do have a landscaping requirement. Uh I do think single-family I think I saw I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure I saw that single-family might be exempt from it in your land development code, but you can change that. You can You can change those 137 00:42:20.640 --> 00:42:40.800 requirements. That's what I'm saying the structure of zoning like you envision zoning other than the the individual categories being on a separate map, that structure is in your land development code. You can regulate stuff the same way. This is definitely um it brings in a a 138 00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:56.720 very different view. Uh my understanding was always that zoning gave you a much more granular map. But what I hear from you is they're almost parallel. They're com- they can be complimentary or they can be conflicting based on when you update 139 00:42:56.720 --> 00:43:13.760 them and how you use them, right? >> Yeah. And in some cases they augment and supplement well and in some cases it causes potential for disconnects. Well, you know, for instance, when you look at other local governments, so they like the city of Callaway City or the city of Callaway, 140 00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:31.080 this they both have zoning and they have land use categories. And they actually have land use categories very similar to yours. But they have zoning that City of Callaway has like nine residential zoning categories. They have a lot of zoning categories. And it's 141 00:43:31.080 --> 00:43:46.680 almost like It's That's a lot. I mean, they have a nine categories. And but you know, they've always had it. And so, it's always been implemented that way. And so, what you would be doing you'd be coming in trying to implement zoning an area 142 00:43:46.680 --> 00:44:03.720 that's developed developed with under the land use categories having those nine land use categories. It gets a little bit more tricky a little more complicated. That's why I think that you know, you you want to out-weigh You want to weigh the two options. You don't want to create a whole bunch of issues trying to 143 00:44:03.720 --> 00:44:20.400 do implement zoning when you could just update your land development code and fix your comp plan and your your land development code based on those categories. I mean, I would look at both, you know, really hard. Maybe have somebody evaluate both of them because 144 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:38.680 that would probably give you an answer or somebody you know, you can have somebody evaluate the two different ones. Give you some other opinions. That's for sure. So, this brings up another question. Um if we stay with land use and and let's let's talk overlays. You said we can do 145 00:44:38.680 --> 00:44:54.960 overlays right now. Would that be a way to restrict say gas stations to a certain portion within a land district use and that would allow us to to do this to make the city kind of look and feel like we want it to by using overlays, but we'd just have to define 146 00:44:54.960 --> 00:45:12.800 the overlays. Is that accurate? Ben can probably answer this question, but I think inside the CRA Do they have restrictions in the CRA overlay? On uses? Yeah, so I mean, you definitely you with through overlay districts you can do that. Um 147 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:30.720 unfortunately to get it show up on a map, you'd have to have it in the comp plan, too. For an overlay district like that. Yes, sir. So, the restrictions in the CRA there are very mild. Uh if you recall if we have a new commercial development that in the 148 00:45:30.720 --> 00:45:48.080 CRA that's is asking to build a drive-through facility, I we have to bring it in front of the CRA board for approval. So, technically the CRA board could say no to this. And I just want to give you an example of another community in Gainesville. 149 00:45:48.080 --> 00:46:04.359 City of Gainesville has a rule in place you can only have one drive-through facility within a 1,000-ft radius. So, uh because they ran into that issue, they were in their opinion too probably too many 150 00:46:04.359 --> 00:46:18.800 fast-food restaurants, coffee shops that and they all want a drive-through facilities one after another and they said this is too much. This is taking this changes too much the face the picture of our community. So, that was 151 00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:35.440 their approach how to limit this. So, that's a little bit more strict. Ours is a little bit more flexible. So, that drive-through option for example, I'm thinking Walgreens it has a drive-through. Mhm. It are you talking just food and 152 00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:50.480 beverage kind of restaurants or would this be any business with a drive-through? >> In that case for Gainesville I think it's for any business and when you got the historic corridor I keep referring to Port Saint Joe Read Avenue. 153 00:46:50.480 --> 00:47:05.720 If you want to develop this this corridor and you get another pharmacy there and another convenience store and they all want a drive-through and they're they'll be tearing down some of the the buildings that are there just to build the 154 00:47:05.720 --> 00:47:23.400 drive-through. It will change the the picture of the of that urban corridor. That makes sense. Thank you, Mr. Jenky. What other questions do y'all have tonight? Mr. Detwiler, come on up. 155 00:47:28.200 --> 00:47:44.600 So, I I I think at this point I I kind of want to talk a little bit about maybe where we're going or kind of, you know, a lot of what we've in the community kind of talked about what the needs are um and maybe that can help redirect some of the conversation. So, Florida Ave is 156 00:47:44.600 --> 00:48:01.200 obviously a big one. Um we want to see that kind of not turn into a downtown Panama City, but redesign zoning and the way things are done cuz right now part of our land development is you have to have storm water. So, you have to have a pond. 157 00:48:01.200 --> 00:48:15.480 You know, we we don't have the ability for, you know, parking along the alleyways. We don't have the ability to remove the the variance so that you can build building to building and you can actually have two brick buildings sitting right next to each other. You don't have the ability to build upwards, 158 00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:32.600 things like that. All that can be done you know, with with an overlay theoretically. Panama City, uh one thing that they did along 390 is they built uh an economic overlay. So, I think from like Sweetbay now almost all the way down to 23rd I think 159 00:48:32.600 --> 00:48:49.760 they have a 390 economic overlay. They basically said within that overlay if you're going to build commercial, we want it to if you're going to build a a lot, it needs to have the ability to connect its parking lot to any commercial that ever builds next to it. So, you have these automatic driveways 160 00:48:49.760 --> 00:49:05.400 where they can go through three different commercial properties without having to get back onto 390 and and move forward. Um they have it where if you want a um a storage place, that storage place can't be within a 1,000 ft of the 161 00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:20.560 roadway. So, that you have actual restaurants and you know, the things that you would want up front with the signage that's going to draw people in and that storage is going to be laid off the roadways. Those can be done with overlays. Um 162 00:49:20.560 --> 00:49:37.920 a lot of that can be built into our code, but you know, like there's like you were saying, we only have nine codes. So, that works till it doesn't. You also have the problem of let's say coastal. You can have it that says if a if a parcel touches the water, then you can 163 00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:53.680 only make, you know, you can only build up 3 ft of dirt before you have to build it on pilings in the in the house has to build up so that you don't have a scenario where we might have a trailer park with 6 ft worth of dirt. Well, that parcel that we were talking about was 164 00:49:53.680 --> 00:50:08.560 not a parcel that touches coast. So, that's where zoning might come in and be helpful. Um So, those kind of conversations, those overlays can help, but then you might have 15 overlays that you want, and if 165 00:50:08.560 --> 00:50:25.400 that's the case, great, but like the gentleman was saying, you have to build those into the comp plan. If we're only updating the comp plan every 10 years, then you really have to do a lot of comprehensive thinking on what those overlays are going to be right now so that you can put them into the comp plan and then go redesign 166 00:50:25.400 --> 00:50:42.040 every single one of your decisions in the ULDC. Um so, with that in mind, the other thing that I wanted to bring up is our boundaries might not just stay where they are now. 167 00:50:42.040 --> 00:50:58.320 Right? You have the Deer Point area. You have potentially the High Point area. If if we really want to expand, I mean, St. Joe owns 90% of High Point. It's a great area to expand in. It's north of 231. It's completely vacant 168 00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:14.480 land. So, now we might have new land. Uh same thing if we end up going with the sewage treatment plant up off of Edwards Road, you know, on the north end. They just sold the sod farm. There's 4 500 acres at least, maybe close to 169 00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:30.440 1,000 acres that could be developed up in that area and annexed in with only five parcels. Um so, yeah, you could put those into an overlay, but then, what's that overlay going to look like? Do we have multi-use where you can have first floor 170 00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:46.640 commercial and, you know, second, third story residential? Do we have it to where we can build the roadways and build all those things or or does zoning help in those areas or is it more beneficial to go with the overlays like a Marina Bay and and have them design and then we just make it that for 171 00:51:46.640 --> 00:52:03.560 this overlay, you have to come to us to officiate and approve every single one of your plans? Um and and maybe you have some thoughts on it with with how that goes, but it's something that we need to think about because we might not be a community that just stays where we are. 172 00:52:03.680 --> 00:52:23.840 Excellent point, sir. You got any thoughts on that at all, sir? Yeah, and one of the you do have a mixed-use. You do have a mixed-use category uh both in your land development code and in the comp plan does does provide for a mix of uses as he was talking 173 00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:39.280 about. But, um yeah, the overlay districts, I mean, you can accomplish like the corridor stuff. You have a corridor overlay district. That's one of the three that's established. You have CRA overlay district. You have a I think a corridor overlay district. 174 00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:55.560 And you have um a PUD overlay district. And then you also have the 1911 plat items that's also addressed in the comp plan and both in your land development code also dealing with the lots in that. But 175 00:52:55.560 --> 00:53:11.080 yeah, I wouldn't have I wouldn't I mean you probably don't need all the you know, 10 overlay districts to do all that. You definitely would want to try to accomplish that. The corridor stuff, yeah, you can accomplish through an overlay district, but a lot of this stuff you would want to try to 176 00:53:11.080 --> 00:53:28.160 accomplish either in a zoning category or you know, through your comp plan through a category. You don't you can update your comp plan anytime you want. I mean, you can change your comp plan anytime you want. The state mandates you do it every 7 years to make you do it, but there's no 177 00:53:28.160 --> 00:53:44.080 restriction on how many times a year you can change your comp plan. Like you can update your comp plan as you want. They used to have restrictions and it used to be twice a year, but they removed that. So, local government can can adjust the comp plan as as needed. And sometimes it does like like he's 178 00:53:44.080 --> 00:54:00.840 mentioned a large area. If you were to annex, you know, 1,000, 2,000 acres, you're going to have to, you know, update your comp plan, incorporate those areas into your plan. Bruce, it sounds like >> [clears throat] >> as we move forward, we really need to kind of plan our work before we work our plan, if you will, and establish 179 00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:17.920 triggers like every time we update our the city's strategic plan. Every time we do a another type of major muscle movement or planning function or a certain acquisition. We acquire we're expanding our boundaries, you know, that forces us to 180 00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:34.160 take another look at updating our zoning maps and land our land use maps accordingly, right? I just don't know what all those triggers would look like or be yet. If we're mandated every 7 years, we should probably be looking at it at every three or four. 181 00:54:34.160 --> 00:54:50.240 At least the subject matter experts to go what needs to be revised. I mean, we now do the charter review every 5 years, right? So, I don't know what that answer is, but it's something we need to look at as a commission and city leadership team. Um 182 00:54:50.240 --> 00:55:05.600 we need to try to nail that jello to the wall, if you will. A lot of times, you know, a lot of that comes to your staff deals with the public. They deal with these development issues occurring on a daily basis. They know where some of the problems are and 183 00:55:05.600 --> 00:55:20.320 what comes up in the the future. They know because they're the ones having to deal with it up front. Of course, the politicians are having to deal with it on the angry part a lot of times from the citizens you know, getting mad about something or about some [snorts] use that approved or It seems like our 184 00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:36.520 triggers, as you say, are the development orders. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, you know, we we need to have or the whole reason I think we're gathering is that we thought maybe that zoning would be the answer to 185 00:55:36.520 --> 00:55:53.520 better development or or or constraining us development in a way that, you know, we won't have multiple gas stations or you know, a drugstore on every corner or so to speak or whatever, you know, we we tend to >> [snorts] >> we tend to we we know how development 186 00:55:53.520 --> 00:56:09.640 orders work. We, you know, people do have the right to develop their land and whatnot, but I think the whole reason we're gathered is to is just is to try to put a limit on some of the stuff. So. Yeah, and that you know, I think is good questions, you know. Yeah, and I 187 00:56:09.640 --> 00:56:26.600 don't want to mislead you and come here and say, "Oh, zoning's going to fix everything." Your land development code updating is going to fix everything and you know, it's not. Yeah, but you're still going to always have inherent problems. But, I think either, you know, by going with zoning, the main thing or updating 188 00:56:26.600 --> 00:56:41.760 your land development code, either way, if you went with a zoning map, you created a zoning, you're going to have to update your land development code. You really need to update your land development code. You wouldn't have to, but you really would need to. You if you did zoning, you would have to because you'd have to you'd have to update all the categories 189 00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:58.000 if you created more categories. But, I don't want you to think you have to go do zoning because kind of what you have, you have the structure to make what you're wanting, what I keep hearing everybody keeps saying, you have that's in your land development code now. You can strengthen those parts. 190 00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:13.120 Those sections are there. Those chapters are there. The the land development code, I'm serious, y'all take a look at it. It is set up and go look at the other local governments. It is set up very much like anybody who has zoning. It's the same. You have the same requirements. You just again are bound 191 00:57:13.120 --> 00:57:29.320 by the comp plan because you have you use the nine land use categories and the three overlay districts. Well, comparing us to Callaway or Panama City, you said they both have very similar plans to us, but they also use zoning. Yes. They both have zoning. Kind 192 00:57:29.320 --> 00:57:45.440 of walk the dog there for me, if you don't mind for a minute. How do they use the additional layer of zoning um to benefit how they currently operate? And both of them have a lot of zoning. They have a lot of residential 193 00:57:45.440 --> 00:58:01.880 zoning categories. Both City Callaway, as I mentioned, you Callaway has eight or nine zoning categories for residential alone. And so does Panama City. Panama City has a lot of residential categories. They have a lot of bro it they have a That's a very interesting zoning categories, and some 194 00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:17.760 of that came about different times of the city when some area needed it, and so they created a zoning category for it. Some of it it's some of it's kind of hot spots. I'm actually updating the City of Panama City's comp plan right now, 195 00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:33.080 and we're looking at trying to streamline like they have a lot of land use categories in that map some of those zoning categories. They have those in their comp plan, and we're trying to streamline this city. The staff wants to. They want to get rid of or remove some of those 196 00:58:33.080 --> 00:58:49.240 because they're they're really so similar that they there's really no function between the two. They should just be one. So, they're looking at ways to update their their um comp plan and their land development regulations. Now, they just implemented neighborhood plans. So, those neighborhood plans just 197 00:58:49.240 --> 00:59:04.480 replaced some of the zoning categories for uh St. Andrews, for Millville, and for um Glenwood. So, big neighborhood areas just got um just got the zoning taken off and implemented through neighborhood plans. Yeah. 198 00:59:04.480 --> 00:59:20.359 >> What is neighborhood plans? It's something it's like very similar to zoning, but it has its own requirements. So, kind of like the TND district that you have. That TND district, if you look at it, it is very detailed. It is very detailed in your land development code, more 199 00:59:20.359 --> 00:59:35.600 detailed any other category you have. And it's just how it came about and when it came about how it was put in there. Now, that that TND category very very detailed, almost too detailed. I mean, it's very very very hard It's very hard to meet some of those requirements in 200 00:59:35.600 --> 00:59:51.240 there. But those neighborhood plans are set up very similar where they did some visioning with the community, they developed these plans with these individual areas. And you St. Andrews kind of functions as its own little you know, niche inside of Panama City. Glenwood does too, Millville. They 201 00:59:51.240 --> 01:00:06.960 almost operate like little different cities, you know, just cuz they're so different, you know, among downtown, spring downtown St. Andrews, Millville, and Glenwood. And so each neighborhood wanted different stuff in these plans. So that's how the neighborhood plans came about. They did a series of 202 01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:23.640 workshops inside those areas. The public gave the input of what they wanted, what their vision was for how they wanted to see redevelop and develop. And so they set neighborhood plans. They created those three neighborhood plans. 203 01:00:23.640 --> 01:00:40.040 And then Panama City, one thing is that's unique about Panama City, they you know, the main part of the city is landlocked. And then they've you know, during a a crazy annexation period between a between a couple of cities back in I guess it was in the 204 01:00:40.040 --> 01:00:56.560 '90s, they annexed all the way up to the Star Avenue. And they have uh they have 6,000 7 No, probably about 8,000 acres of vacant land up there that's starting to be developed. That is what's called Panama City North. And so they have a whole different 205 01:00:56.560 --> 01:01:14.480 category just for that area up there, land use category and zoning category. And so it is And that came about when the need to develop up there. Kind of like he had mentioned, if you were to annex you know, such a large area or something, I mean, that's when you can 206 01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:31.440 adjust accordingly. It's hard to plan. That's why they allow you to amend your comp plan and let you have total control of your land development code. It's hard to say, "Okay, we're going to set this plan for 10 years or 20 years and we're going to operate inside of it." It's hard because stuff changes. You know, the market 207 01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:48.080 changes, the community changes. Storm can happen like in 2018. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that can happen in that time period. That's why you have the flexibility to adjust. A lot of local governments think they're stuck, and you're not. I mean, you do have that flexibility. 208 01:01:48.080 --> 01:02:04.520 Thank you for that. Any other questions, ladies and gentlemen? You've all been a good audience tonight. The regulars always ask good questions, but you know, the rest of you quiet ones, do y'all have any questions or thoughts or concerns you want to share with us or our subject matter experts 209 01:02:04.520 --> 01:02:23.200 and our public works and CRA folks while we got them here? None? Yes, ma'am. Come on up. You feel free. That way for anybody online, they can actually hear your question and comments. Um I was 210 01:02:23.200 --> 01:02:39.760 I guess asking I would like to ask for more clarification of what you're doing with the neighborhoods because so much of Lynn Haven's already built out and we have existing neighborhoods. So You said you're doing some of the second overlay district in zoning 211 01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:55.160 like Millville. Um so what are the things that they are doing in their neighborhoods? What are the things that they're asking for? Is it things like taking certain properties and you could put like a little restaurant or coffee shop there? Sidewalks, landscaping, more pedestrian 212 01:02:55.160 --> 01:03:11.000 friendly. Just curious like what that looks like. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, and I'm not doing the neighborhood plans. They were already done. Um I'm updating the comprehensive plan. And the neighborhood plans, the city staff actually put the neighborhood plans in the comp plan. But we're 213 01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:27.760 updating the comp plan now. But with the neighborhood plans, um after the hurricane after Hurricane Michael, they hired um a consultant and he did a visioning to update, you know, these areas, update their land development code, look at, you know, those areas were hit by the 214 01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:43.120 hurricane. They wanted to get it into the public, see what needed to be changed. So they end up creating these neighborhood plans. And basically [snorts] the neighborhood plans are self-establishes setbacks, establishes what can be used, you know, it replaces zoning categories, overrides the zoning categories actually. And it's 215 01:03:43.120 --> 01:03:58.920 the uses, it's you know, what can occur where. Very similar to what zoning was, but it's all into an area. It's almost it's a form-based code basically where it's kind of you build to it. So and so it it those areas are all developed. As 216 01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:14.640 you know, there's only a few um vacant parcels that occur and then vacant lots, but large vacant empty parcels, there's not many in those areas. So it actually applies to existing neighborhoods and redevelopment of those neighborhoods. Is it almost like an HOA structure? Like 217 01:04:14.640 --> 01:04:31.680 if you come and build in a HOA neighborhood, you have to comply to certain architectural designs and styles and Similar, yeah. >> sizes >> Not as restrictive, but yeah. It does the form-based code does allow um some flexibility, but it is it is dictative of you have to fall in that 218 01:04:31.680 --> 01:04:54.640 format for each neighborhood. It the requirements of it. It has requirements like zoning. Does that answer your question, ma'am? Okay, thank you. Come on up, Zach. >> [clears throat] >> So to kind of So I lived in Orlando for 219 01:04:54.640 --> 01:05:10.359 on and off maybe 10 years. Um and one really cool thing that the city of Orlando did that that's kind of what Panama City's doing and it's something that the city could think about as well. Um they I believe by the time I moved out, they had nine 220 01:05:10.359 --> 01:05:25.359 neighborhoods and I think they're up to 13 now. Orlando's a much bigger city. Um and what these neighborhoods were is they were old districts that sort of surrounded downtown. So downtown was its own district, but then you had um 221 01:05:25.359 --> 01:05:41.080 you had the Milk District which I lived in, you had Mills/50, you had uh Lake Lucerne, you had all these different areas and they all had their own feelings to them is the best way I can describe it. Um the Milk District was a little more industrial. It had actually 222 01:05:41.080 --> 01:05:56.920 a T.G. Lee milk factory in the middle of it kind of like we have Grocery Outlet next to Florida Ave. Um it was, you know, hard block and everything else like that. Everything had neons. And when it was built, everything had neons, the whole strip. Well, they don't like neons 223 01:05:56.920 --> 01:06:13.240 downtown, they don't like neons down in the rich areas and stuff like that. And so they took away all of the ability to put neons in signs and in windows and stuff like that. And by having that neighborhood district, it allowed Milk District to come in, go to the city 224 01:06:13.240 --> 01:06:28.000 planners, and build out what this community wanted its feel to come back to. Um So what you could think about it as is like the 9811 plat. You want Victorian style, craftsman 225 01:06:28.000 --> 01:06:44.560 style, block veneer, um you know, those type of things when you're building those neighborhoods. Mill Bayou kind of has a different feel. It's younger, it's more of a a moving type thing. You got the Publix right there. Maybe you want, you know, more walkways kind of to feel more like a 226 01:06:44.560 --> 01:06:59.200 SweetBay where it's it's, you know, sort of an interactive and stuff like that. And so that kind of acts as its own neighborhood feel to itself. High Point, if if let's say we annexed all that land, maybe you want more of a larger lot like a 227 01:06:59.200 --> 01:07:16.320 you know, half acre or more per larger homes, things like that. You want golf cart trails everywhere and stuff like that to build in you know, if we annex north on the north side of the bridge, it's more of a coastal feel. There's a lot of land that's vacant out there next 228 01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:33.000 to where we already have and we could annex now. But you you would want it to have its own feel. And so neighborhoods, you know, kind of get that ability both from a commercial standpoint and a residential standpoint is it allows that smaller community to decide what the 229 01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:48.640 feel of it's going to be without really breaking down your whole structure if that makes sense. So it's it's actually great that, you know, they have that in Panama City because it really used to be four cities that became one. But it's something to think about with 230 01:07:48.640 --> 01:08:08.600 the way that we're developing is, you know, 9811 plat might be different or 1911 plat might be different than Mill Bayou. And how do you want that to feel in 20 years? And how do we accomplish that? Thank you. Any other thoughts or questions tonight? 231 01:08:15.200 --> 01:08:31.880 It just He mentioned Mill Bayou. That is the TND district. That is what the TND TND district was established for and it does set those parameters, those development parameters. And if there's anybody that hasn't looked at the TND standards just in your land development code, I would 232 01:08:31.880 --> 01:08:49.000 encourage them to look at that cuz it is a way like what he's mentioning, that's how you address some of these large areas like that. And you can control the neighborhood to get the feel that you want. And of course that was driven kind of reversed. I mean, the city didn't do that. The developer did. The 233 01:08:49.000 --> 01:09:04.440 developer brought He had that master plan at back in before the market crashed in 2005 or something. I think he started that. 2005, yeah. And he he brought all that to the city. But so it that property would be 234 01:09:04.440 --> 01:09:22.040 developed with that feel in future. I think he's I think I've heard he's done some variances to different neighborhoods out there. That's part of it, but I mean, that that was the purpose of it. Mayor, we can discuss more in our budget workshops that we have in the in the 235 01:09:22.040 --> 01:09:38.200 coming months. Um but from tonight, I I gather that our better investment may be to update the comp plan and our land development code and spend some serious money and time doing that versus, you know, investing over $200,000 in our 236 01:09:38.200 --> 01:09:54.440 zoning map. Um so, I think that the start may be to look at our comp plan and really dive deep into that and how we want to update it, want the city to look, and then go into our land development code in the next fiscal year. Couldn't agree with you more. 237 01:09:55.200 --> 01:10:10.720 Zoning, it sounds like, would not, at this point, and sir, thank you for your expertise tonight. We had you up for almost a complete hour talking. And clear your 31 years of experience in this is on full display and very much 238 01:10:10.720 --> 01:10:26.160 I'm grateful for you coming and sharing your insights with the city of Lynn Haven tonight. Um As General McQueen would say, you never want to rush to failure, right? We need to plan our work and then work our plan. 239 01:10:26.160 --> 01:10:42.560 And if we get our current books in order and you're telling us that we what we are looking for, the proper guidance and rigidity and um ability to kind of shape 240 01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:58.280 is already there. Which I was under the impression zoning would need would be needed to drive, and you're saying, "No, you have all the tools you need right now." I mean, we have a car that's a truck, per se, right? Either one will do. One may be 241 01:10:58.280 --> 01:11:13.000 better for the other depending on what you're trying to haul or or use that for, vehicle-wise, but we get this in order, maybe zoning would be complimentary, maybe it wouldn't, right? Depends on how we structure the two core documents that need updating. 242 01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:28.720 One's from '92, as Bobby and I were talking right at the beginning of this meeting. Um Get them updated. And then see if zoning is still needed or we have these type of communities or the special overlay plans 243 01:11:28.720 --> 01:11:44.280 that are being developed in areas around us, take some of the best ideas of this whole community and use them as it makes sense and would be beneficial for our residents. Mayor, um Commissioner Peoples also has some questions and comments to add to. 244 01:11:44.280 --> 01:12:01.000 Yes, sir. Go ahead, Commissioner Peoples. Thank you, Mayor. Uh my main question is that we kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's one of the things that we've dealt with, uh we see it all the time, different citizens will say that we have 245 01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:17.000 too many of this or we have too many of that or whatever. Let's just use, I don't know, let's just use something random as an example. This doesn't really exist. Let's say um um we have a large number of people that say, "We don't want any more, I don't 246 01:12:17.000 --> 01:12:34.280 know, bicycle shops on 77." Am I hearing correctly that the best way to handle that would just maybe make an overlay that says you can only have uh one bicycle shop every 247 01:12:34.280 --> 01:12:50.880 1,000 ft on Highway 77. Is that the best way to handle that? Because it was kind of my impression that we needed zoning to be able to do things like that. That That was mine, too, Sam, but I've got the subject matter expert coming back up to answer you. 248 01:12:50.880 --> 01:13:06.960 And as I mentioned, you have a corridor overlay district that regulates and it might be in I'd have to go back and look. It might only be in the CRA part of it, but you have the that structure in place, you could you could add additional requirements to that if 249 01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:25.320 you wanted to do that. You can have requirements inside of a a certain corridor. And if you already have the overlay district, you can expand it or use it. All depend on where you're wanting to restrict stuff out. Yeah, like, for instance, you can't have car dealership, I think it's like 250 01:13:25.320 --> 01:13:42.760 past 26th Street this way. I don't know why, but that's what I got in there. So, to Commissioner Peoples' point, um I thought zoning would be needed to drive that level of detail requirement, but what I hear you saying is it's not the 251 01:13:42.760 --> 01:14:00.480 case. No, you can do it other ways. And which but you I mean, again, if you look in your land development code, you'll see you have quite a bit of stuff that's been placed in there over the years. I mean, it functions very similar to zoning. I mean, I and yeah, you you could have somebody 252 01:14:00.480 --> 01:14:15.520 evaluate it either way and give you a opinion on cuz you really need to look at your maps if you wanted to go to zoning and see what you would benefit out of trying to break that up and go to zoning versus the complicated parts and the 253 01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:31.200 non-conforming usages you might create versus just updating your comp plan and addressing your other items updating your land development code, I'm sorry, and addressing your other items. I I would weigh both of them. Just to look at it would take a a deeper dive into your 254 01:14:31.200 --> 01:14:47.720 looking at your uh future land use map in the built environment and then trying to look to see what would make the most sense if you were going to implement that through zoning. And how you know, what complications negativities would come out of that. You definitely would you'd want to evaluate 255 01:14:47.720 --> 01:15:05.680 that before you jumped into it. Yes, sir. Commissioner Peoples, do you have any other questions, sir? I guess my main one is kind of I guess just kind of a recap on on our overall thought is, you know, I I do want 256 01:15:05.680 --> 01:15:21.200 developments to have the right to build, but there's, you know, it seems like every single almost every single development order that comes up by the time it gets to us, there is no say, I mean, yes or no. I mean, the 257 01:15:21.200 --> 01:15:37.080 answer pretty much has to be yes because they met the minimum requirements. What is the best way forward to help guide those developments in terms of like what kind of businesses we can have? Is it just the overlay? I'm not 258 01:15:37.080 --> 01:15:52.640 like It has kind of just been like the the overarching canned answer when someone says, "Well, why didn't you vote no on this?" The answer is, "Well, we can't." I mean, like, but that's pretty much what we get. So, I don't I 259 01:15:52.640 --> 01:16:09.160 don't know if there's anything that you can guide us in like why that is other than Florida being a right-to-develop state, is there something we can do that can help guide us having more actual decision-making in those scenarios? 260 01:16:13.000 --> 01:16:29.520 So, is is that based on uses that you're talking like the actual uses? You wanting to restrict certain uses? And or you don't want a use to occur somewhere that a development order's Yep. and applied for? And Commissioner Peoples, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what what you're trying to get at 261 01:16:29.520 --> 01:16:45.680 is if they bring in another gas station to develop and it checks every box as set forth, um every requirement is checked, um there's really nothing that the commission can do to deny that that development order. Is that what you're getting at and what can be done to 262 01:16:45.680 --> 01:17:02.280 prevent that? Correct. Let's use that example. Let's say someone is bringing in another gas station and we have 200 people in the room saying, "We don't want this gas station. We do not want How what do we do?" 263 01:17:02.280 --> 01:17:17.760 And and you're not the only one that suffers from this problem. I mean, you see this a lot. And not gas stations, whatever, you know, drive-thrus, other banks or whatever. I mean, you see the same thing happens. A lot of local governments have this issue. But, you know, I think you even with 264 01:17:17.760 --> 01:17:32.360 zoning, uh you're going to have the same problem. I mean, you'd have to regulate you're going to have to, as a community, come together and you're going to have to almost do it through a some kind of overlay through a corridor overlay cuz you're going to have to establish a reason 265 01:17:32.360 --> 01:17:48.000 why you're restricting it. And you have parameters that would restrict it. Cuz you you know, you're going to have to be able to be legal bone defendable in court of what you established when you start limiting. Cuz again, you know, if it falls inside of a 266 01:17:48.000 --> 01:18:03.640 a land use category and it's allowed, you got to have reason. An overlay district can do that. It can have additional requirements cuz remember, your land development code, you can have additional requirements that implement those categories, those nine categories. And then you can have and you have those overlay districts, but you can create 267 01:18:03.640 --> 01:18:21.719 additional standards. And a lot of people do. A lot of people have corridor overlays that require you do. I mean, you require design guidelines in these in a lot of these the on the commercial corridor overlay for 77. And that as sure 268 01:18:21.719 --> 01:18:39.160 You got to build the barn before it doesn't it's not going to apply. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, you got to build the barn before the horse gets out, not after. >> Yes. Yes. Sam, does that answer your question, sir? >> [clears throat] >> It does. Thank you very much. You got 269 01:18:39.160 --> 01:19:00.160 any others? No, that's it. All right. Thank you, sir. Commissioner Perno, do you have any, sir? No questions. Others, Commissioner Ward? City Manager, do you have any? No, sir, nothing else. Come on up, sir. 270 01:19:01.320 --> 01:19:23.360 Oh, you got you got people Sir, you got people listening. You got people listening online. Sorry, we're not trying to be difficult. Um thank you for coming up. I'm a proponent of zoning. 271 01:19:23.360 --> 01:19:38.200 As a single family owner, I want protection from somebody buying up two lots next to me or anywhere around me and building a multi-story housing project. 272 01:19:38.200 --> 01:19:55.560 So, zoning will prevent that. R1, R2, R3. Okay. R1 being single family only. R2 being a little higher. So, I'm a proponent of zoning. So, that's all I have to say unless your 273 01:19:55.560 --> 01:20:11.520 plan, I'm not sure exactly what you were saying cuz I have difficulty hearing. But, how does what your overlay or whatever protect single family homeowners? That's I guess my question. >> Okay. Thank you. Yes, sir. 274 01:20:11.520 --> 01:20:27.400 Again, in your current land development code, on the implementation of these nine categories, you have a low density residential category. You have that today in your land development code. You have it in your comp plan. And implemented through the land development regulations, 275 01:20:27.400 --> 01:20:42.680 it only allows single family. You can't do multi-family in the low density. Remember, you have three residential zoning categories. You got low density, which is the single family. You got medium densities, which is the town home duplexes. And then you got high density, 276 01:20:42.680 --> 01:21:02.360 which is the apartments. So, you have those three structures now. So, that already is on your map and in your land development code. And there's requirements in your land development code for those. Did that answer your question, sir? Yes, sir. 277 01:21:02.360 --> 01:21:18.320 Zack, last one tonight for you, bud. There's normally like a three question limit, but It is. It's all good. I'm just giving you a hard time. Go ahead. >> So, in in this kind of strain of talking kind of brings up a a good point. Um, 278 01:21:18.320 --> 01:21:33.440 is the only reason that certain land development recently was able to be denied was incompatibility. Um, and that was the only reason that you could deny it. However, obviously, I've talked about a certain 279 01:21:33.440 --> 01:21:49.680 development that I wish could have be been canceled, but that could have been done if your residential commercial, which is what that lot should have been, um, had regulations in there that says you can't have an industrialized type of commercial. You can't have something that would create noise over certain 280 01:21:49.680 --> 01:22:05.160 decibels. Uh, you can't have anything that uses hazardous chemicals within 1,000 ft of a residential structure, things like that. So, um, within your categories, you can put protections in there that would say 281 01:22:05.160 --> 01:22:21.120 these type of things can't be used within this space and therefore, you can't do it. Hey, you want to put in a Toffee and within 1,000 ft, there's no residential homes. Great. You know, that's why it's going in where it's going in. Um, but if you want to put it 282 01:22:21.120 --> 01:22:38.000 where it's 50 ft from somebody's backyard, um, then you get into that that zoning conflict and all of that can be written into the land use. It just needs to be written into the land use. Um, and so I think that's where 283 01:22:38.000 --> 01:22:54.680 he's going is is saying if those are updated, the cat zoning is a category. That's all the category is and it's just better utilization of the categories that we already have. The only thing that I think if you're going to use residential, that would really be like a C1 per se, but 284 01:22:54.680 --> 01:23:10.040 it's kind of a restricted C1. You don't really have a C2 and a C3, which some larger cities do. So, like a C3 would either be multi-story and or big box. A C2 would be strip malls and things like that. And then a C1 would be, you know, like a 285 01:23:10.040 --> 01:23:24.720 attorney's office or or something small like that. So, they do do some structuralized commercial variances that way, but by doing a residential commercial and then just a regular commercial, you can do that. Um, 286 01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:40.440 but it would be very hard to say not allow a the 15th car wash to come on to 77 if your only use code is commercial because if it's zoned commercial, then you can't say anything unless you have an overlay 287 01:23:40.440 --> 01:23:57.840 district. Whereas, if you had a C1, C2, C3 and a residential commercial, you could potentially do something like that. Um, you'd either have to put it in the comp plan under your current way or you'd have to go to a zoning where you could have eight different types of commercial 288 01:23:57.840 --> 01:24:14.520 and that gets complex. So, thinking going forward, you know, do you use that overlay on all your main roads? Put put one down 390 all the way to the end out to 231. Put one down 77, 390 the other way and that way all of your commercial corridors are good with 289 01:24:14.520 --> 01:24:30.600 overlays and then when if those overlays, you just write an ordinance and change it that way. Or do you take a structuralized look at the way that you're developing your commercial and say we only want big box south of 14th. We only want, you know, industrialized commercial or something like that to be 290 01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:46.520 allowed, you know, this side or that side of those types of things and and you write those into your codes, but it's something that you should take a look at going through this process of not just what is allowed within it, but what's restricted because of what's around it. 291 01:24:46.520 --> 01:25:03.960 Thank you for that. Um, the main concerns have been so far are residential uh, and then the main commercial strip. So, looking at some type of potential to your point economic corridor overlays. Whether it's 77 and there's multiples or 292 01:25:03.960 --> 01:25:50.480 however we structure that, right? Uh, there but there would be some inherent goodness in that. Yeah, I'm sure. So, I guess as we wrap up here tonight, if are there any more questions? Yes, ma'am. >> [laughter] >> I was just wondering if you guys have 293 01:25:50.480 --> 01:26:05.320 any plans or if you've considered hiring a consultant. So, I know Panama City for years and years. We're now starting to see kind of the fruit of all of their labor because they really started this process at least probably 6, 7 years ago when they hired, I guess, Dover, Kohl I think is the name of the firm. So, have 294 01:26:05.320 --> 01:26:24.440 y'all ever considered actually hiring anyone to kind of help us out, get us started, help us plan, determine what we need to do? This is a first information gathering. I see the inherent need for some type of subject matter expertise to help us plan our work and work our plan. I don't know 295 01:26:24.440 --> 01:26:39.960 what that is yet, but I think that's a very good question. I think we all see the need for that cuz we all want we all know growth is here. Growth it will continue to evolve. Um, Lynn Haven will continue to evolve long 296 01:26:39.960 --> 01:26:56.360 after all of us are gone. How do we on our watch? How do we make this the best community that we can and plan growth versus patchwork growth, haphazard. And then you're always chasing your tail reactively trying to 297 01:26:56.360 --> 01:27:14.440 add infrastructure and storm water and all these other things that if it had been a structured approach, our kids and grandkids down the road will have a much more resident friendly, robust utility infrastructure to live and work with. 298 01:27:14.440 --> 01:27:33.920 I think is uh an ideal goal for us to all work towards. All right, any other questions? If not, sir, one more time, I want to thank you sincerely for coming and and meeting with us and sharing your wisdom. Um, to our audience participants, to all of our 299 01:27:33.920 --> 01:27:45.640 audience, thank you for coming. And for those of you that asked questions, especially. Um, that's all I got. Anything else? Y'all have a good night.