##VIDEO ID:XD-TUe9G5CI## e e e e e meeting to order at 9:01 a.m. at this time we have the invocation by Pastor Trent G First Baptist Len Haven followed by the Pledge of Allegiance let's pray together Heavenly Father we are so grateful we can come before you this morning as we celebrate this season we celebrate the fact that a child has been born for us he's been given for us he comes as peace from you so that we can have peace with you and we thank you sending Jesus salvation from the Lord to be with us father we pray that your peace would rest on our great City God we pray that you would Grant continued wisdom to our city leaders father that your favor would remain on us and be with us in the days ahead we pray it all in Jesus name amen pledge aliance to the flag of the United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice right this time we have our public commentary remember 3 minutes and please direct your comments to the chair have Miss Jerry Parker good morning commission I have several things in reference to the king Griff of Park that I want um addressed um before Hurricane Andrew there was a speed indicator right before you get to the park that is no longer there I live right off of 17th Street and there is massive speeding down that road the other thing is when I talked about the um sidewalk right along the road um it is it is a safety concern of mine and I would suggest putting guard rails up there I know y'all did that at um 17th and Minnesota for that ditch so I'm I'm asking that that be done for a safety factor for the kids um also um there is speed limits on on 77 that says 25 miles an hour um right there near before you get to Haney I don't know why those are there it says work Zone but it's 25 within 50 yards there's another 25 speed so I don't know if that's a DOT thing or if y'all can address that with them but those need to be taken down that's ridiculous um the other thing that I wanted to speak about was um the hiring and the lack of Integrity of Chris foran I would like y'all to go back and take note of August 14 2012 the commission meeting Chris foran was fired for bid rigging from Pebble Rish this is the type of Integrity this man has but y'all continually ignore his lack of integrity and keep on hiring him please take a close look at that he has a history of lack of Integrity which I'll keep on hiring thank you all right thank you Maria Mario Duke right Madison Powell Madison Powell Rich Walker good morning Rich Walker 1106 Michigan Avenue Merry Christmas uh I noticed on the new business here the extension of the finance committee finance committee evolved over a long period of time changed his name three times and uh lost good people that were responsible to the citizens I didn't like that when Mr Hall who was a very honest individual and took the uh Financial staff to task to do things right was a a me actually took the lesson of a city manager and he left the town and resigned from the finance group um my question here not my question but my suggestion here is down to the bottom at the end of the extension it adds two individuals to the finance committee we had this discussion before and you said under not under your breath but loud enough where we could hear that those PE two people are what we call ad hoc they're non- voting members that is not in the paperwork that is not what was done at that meeting I attended I would like you to include in your resolution there when you do this that you include those two people as nonvoting members that's the way you explained it and that's what I accept it and I would appreciate that being done it is not in writing what's not in writing never seems to be done thank you very much thank you James Finch James Finch 410 East Second Street I wrote the commission a letter and I I got a response from mayor Nelson and mayor Nelson says that uh mayor the attorney asked for this that he didn't ask for it I said you know I thought mayor Nelson put I've been to three commission since you've been the mayor of Len Haven first commission meeting I was at Mr war was trying to put something on the commission and you said no no no body can put it on but you y kind of remember that and I hadn't been but one since then if that's changed I apologize but I thought that when I was here you said that you control the agenda and you put it on the you know back then so I've been to three and so I forget if I'm wrong on that I'm sorry and then you say this is not a new contract for the city manager when you change a new cont when you change or modify a contract it will be a considered a new contract because you say what's the date on this contract there's been an addendum to this contract so that's considered new in my book so and I apologize for that if I'm wrong but I'm saying there are several lawsuits against the city of Len Haven and Vicki gainers 90% of them there's going to be some liability considerable amount of liability with a city of Len Haven if they lose all these lawsuits and I think that should be considered and when all the depositions is done and everybody's been under oath and y'all have seen all of it y'all going to be under oath then y'all consider and y'all can extend whatever but there's liability out there a lot of it a lot it's cost me several hundred, and like I say the lawsuits are going on and they're fixing to happen very soon I understand our contract goes to 2027 I don't know what needs to be changed but if you changed it it's going to be considered new and uh but there is some liability and everybody's forgetting the liability I would like to propose that uh y'all's uh Moody was a uh an accountant for y'all but if y'all have moody if y'all hire him to do an audit on all this construction and all this damage for the FEMA work for the city hall work all the changes here match the change orders with the money I'll pay I'll will donate the money and pay it for city of L Haven to get the audit here and everybody will feel better about it thank you if you have any questions I'm here right thank you any additional public commentary moving on to the marriage report uh public Proclamation for waths Across America whereas members of the wath waths Across America Bay County are proud to partner with the city of Lin Haven and waths across America a nonprofit organization with a mission to remember honor and teach about the service and sacrifices of our nation's veterans recognizing the courage and sacrifices of US veterans by placing wreaths on the graves of the fallen during the holiday season and whereas wreaths Across America began in 2006 as an offshoot of the Arlington National Cemetery wreath project which started in 1992 with the annual placement of wreaths donated by warer wreath company and whereas the mission for wreath Across America is remember the Fallen honor those who serve and teach the Next Generation the value of freedom and whereas today the wreath laying ceremonies are made possible by the generous commitment of worest wreath company of herting Maine which donates tens of thousands of waths for Nationwide observant each year and whereas last year members of the the public sponsor the placement of millions of Reefs on headstones at thousands of participating locations around the country in honor of the service and sacrifices made for our freedoms with each name said aloud and whereas the theme for 2024 is live with purpose and whereas Karen warer executive director of re Across America says over the course of the last year and then especially on the escort to Arlington last December I listened to people who had gone through great adversity and they taken that diversity and turn it around as a call to action to spend the rest of their lives making sure that every day was meaningful and that they lived with purpose whereas on December 14th 2024 at 9:00 a.m. reath Across America Bay County and friends is partnered with reath Across America to help lay reefs at Mount Hope Cemetery and Lin Haven Community Cemetery I therefore mayor of the city of Lin Haven along with our commissioners do hereby Proclaim December 14th 2024 throughout the city of Lin Haven Florida as wath Across America day and ask that you would join me supporting this worthwhile project right I'll keep my report brief um it was a great um event going to the Christmas lighting ceremony um another great partnership with uh wjhg had a great time um listening to uh ly Haven Elementary uh sing their songs as as well as sing everyone um just enjoy the festivities thank you to the Rotary Club again for sponsoring that hot chocolate um and it was certainly cold enough to need hot chocolate um on that evening and uh and for the food trucks and everyone um that makes that a great event and as always our our friend next door First Baptist ly Haven for allowing us to use their parking lot um in order to accommodate um residents as they come to these events and so had a great time there um also had a great time at the Christmas parade on Saturday lots of people were out so thank you all for uh for weathering the cold to come out and to to just celebrate um this Christmas season so I think it's just a a a vision of things to come um in regards to Florida Avenue as we continue to work towards um restructuring Florida Avenue to make it a a destination for our city ly Haven so I think that was really great especially to see the uh the different businesses they're serving um those that attended the parade um that was really neat as well um and so that's my report for today commissioner pebles thank you mayor uh yes as the mayor said there's a lot of great events over the past month or so um I really enjoyed them and uh they the city did a great job I also want to specifically um say thank you for uh to Justin and his team for doing the toys for kids pickle tournament um very happy to hear that it went well and uh it's fantastic um with that I just want to say Merry Christmas and happy holidays to everybody out there and I hope that you have a great holiday season thank you commissioner perno thank you mayor um I don't have much other than to wish everybody a Merry Christmas and the joy of the holidays for for everybody um and uh if you ever been out to wreaths Across America just it's a very moving thing when you go up to someone's grave and say their name and put a wreath down um the the feeling that comes over you it's it it definitely brings a a just a a purpose to the event but you you you feel like you're thanking someone for their whole life's efforts and you've never met them before you know so if you if you read into it and you're the person standing there it's very moving so I don't think I've missed one since I've been a commissioner so I look forward to it and uh with that I'll just I'll just end my report thank you commissioner Ward um pretty much everything I was going to say uh Christmas uh tree lighting was great um it's always a good event um wreath Across America I've been to that multiple times at different locations and it is a a great great event so I encourage uh people go out if you're able to um you'll remember it for the rest of your life it's it's a great event and uh just want to wish everyone a happy holidays so thank you and and thank you for helping coordinate the uh the dinner last night for the Bay County League of cities thought that was uh really good especially with having new Commissioners and Mayors and other cities that we haven't had a chance to meet um since the last election so that was uh that was good good Fellowship commissioner Vander Griff yes I would also like to put a plugin for the reefs Across America my husband and I did that last year for the first time and you're absolutely correct both guys it is very moving and uh the more people that are out there the more involved um in the faster the Reeves are um commissioner perno and I attended the TPO meeting the transportation meeting one thing we've definitely learned is that the Department of Transportation does not move quickly so every time we ask a question it was 2007 or in the next 10 years or so um we really can't give you any answers yet as far as transportation we couldn't nail the Department of Transportation down to a date um the Christmas parade I just want to we ran out of candy um about two blocks before the parade was over and all those little kids were standing there going Merry Christmas you know morning and candy so I want to apologize to the citizens in our enthusiasm coming down Fifth Street we I guess we threw out tooo much candy and so we didn't have candy the last two blocks and uh so I apologize for that we learned a lesson we'll have more candy next year and um but there were a lot of people out there and I hope they really enjoyed it I want to thank the PE uh the employees that have to spend overtime planning the Christmas tree lighting and the parades and and because they do a wonderful job so I just want say thanks to them off right thank you right city manager warrant list good morning questions about the warrant list I I do surprise is this the same exact warrant list as what we just discussed at the pre um meeting yes ma'am okay then you answered all my questions Friday okay thank you yeah so do you want to go on do it or wait until January so we have an employee at the quarter but she is not here today so I think what we'll do is just recognize her and then let you do that when she get she gets back Heather Heather Carlson who was also at Len resident okay all right uh just a couple of things so the uh data back from uh The Landings if you remember someone came and talked about the speeding in The Landings I just wanted to to give the commission an update on that is that uh the med medium speed was like 20 miles an hour and um there was nothing that would warrant us bringing it to you to put anything in place there uh from what we can see uh people were pretty much following the speed limit I think um you had just a few were maybe at 37 M an hour and it's a 20 25 mph speed zone but they're pretty much following um the speed within that area uh we this past Saturday we had 16 adult softball teams that participated in toys for kids that means we had toys for our kids that we're going to actually donate um this week um at the Lin hav Heaven Methodist Church uh to give those toys out we thank every team that participated and uh helping uh additional kids have a great Christmas our volleyball uh registration for volleyball is in full swing we literally have about 200 people now that have signed up for volleyball and we need to coaches it's a big big uh I think we started this a year and a half ago and is just taken off and exploded so thank you all for participating flat football begins on December 21st we have 31 teams in this um and then adult winter softball and I think commissioner peoples is playing in that we have 10 men's team and 12 coet teams and again uh if you're looking for something to do at night please come out and watch him play commissioner PE says he's the Superstar out there so um uh the gym will be closed December 26 through January 2nd uh because we are out during that time and um I just want to thank all staff who have been working so hard to put on um all of these events particularly the Christmas tree lighting which was absolutely amazing and um the Christmas parade uh that I would say I've seen the largest crowd yet uh in that parade so thank you all staff it was very cold out on Saturday but a very good time in next year we will make sure we give y'all additional candy and that you don't throw it a mile ahead of time so that you don't run out of candy uh in in those areas and and and that's my report right thank you City attorney moving on to the consent agenda approval of minutes for 11224 and approval to declare asset 3805 for Max folding machine machine Surplus and auction off is there a motion for this motion to approve the consent agenda a second all right motion a second uh by commissioner perno and commissioner pebl City manag if you call the vote commissioner perno yes commissioner pebles yes commission vanag yes commission War yes mayor Nelson yes motion passed o business public hearing for the final reading of ordinance 1172 revising the city's codes of ordinances related to cross connection and backflow prevention opening at 9:23 right as we know this is uh just a revision of what the state is mandating that um the cities across Florida have to do so it's nothing um that we are requiring our citizens to do we're following um the state mandate and just making sure we passed that along in our city codes of ordinances that's fair uh there's a second part to this that will come in January Ops the cross connection program that has the more specific details this is the general framework right thank you um are there any questions for the City attorney or for director of Public Works is there a motion for this would you like for me to read the ordinance yes ordinance number 1172 an ordinance of the city of L Haven Florida amending the city's code of ordinances related to cross connection control and backflow prevention updating definitions and processes for appeals of decisions of Public Works director clarifying that the cost of installation inspecting testing and maintenance shall be born by the customers repealing ordinances or parts of ordinances in Conflict here providing for severability and providing for immediately effective date all right thank you is there a motion for this motion to approve second right is there a public commentary right City minut you call the vote commission perno yes commissioner vandagriff yes commissioner War yes commissioner peop yes mayor Nelson yes motion pass close hearing 9:25 all right new business discussion and possible approval to consider updating the city Charter to add a clerk position yes so do we have a presentation for that there we go awesome thank you so um we had talked about this uh quite a bit um at our pre-commission meeting and one of the things I asked the commission and the residents to keep in mind is one of the reasons a couple reasons why I'm bringing this up is one when you look back at what happened with Lin Haven with the Federal indictment um especially when you you look at the city manager was back then I think um city clerk position situated in a certain spot uh could have helped prevented some of those things and um so and I know the other thing we discussed was the city had put certain practices in place to try to prevent this from happening which I do appreciate however um I ask that we don't think about the now we think about the future um Miss Gainer her staff won't be here forever those people will change those policies will change and that's why I think this position is a crucial position uh that I would like to add so if you go to the next slide so there's pretty long history um when you look at city clerks uh it's one of the oldest public service positions in government dating back thousands of years um the in the office has evolved over time but has always been a Cornerstone of recordkeeping transparency and administ rtion and when you look back at early history um in an ancient civilization uh Egypt Greece and Rome clerks were among the first bureaucrats positions established uh they were scribes a precursor to clerks documented laws Royal decrees and Commercial transactions in Athens um they were the secretary of the polus where they kept records of assembly decisions and decrees um medieval Europe during the Middle Ages clerks uh served monarchs and church officials maintaining important records such as tax collections legal rulings and Land Titles and they were often among the few literate individuals in a town or city making their role indispensable in modern Evolution during the colonial America the concept of the clerk was brought to the Americas by European settlers and early clerks in colonial towns recorded Council meetings property deeds and birth of uh birth and birth or death certificate uh and they were responsible for ensuring legal and government records were properly maintained and in the 19th and 20th Century As Cities grew the roles of the clerk expanded to include managing elections licenses and permits uh the position uh has become a key figure ensuring government accountability and transparency and then today modern city clerks are pivotal pivotal and ensuring the smooth operation of local governments and with advancements in technology many Clerks oversee digital records management and use electronic systems for elections and Licensing next slide please um so there's many notable features but these are the ones they're most noted for is uh continuity the position and city clerk provides historical continuity often being the custodian custodian of centuries old records um in most places clerks are expected to remain neutral focusing on Administration rather than politics and accessibility uh Clerk play a vital role in ensuring public access to government proceedings and documents uh the city clerk is often referred to as a historian of the city preserving the institutional memory and ensuring that government actions are transparent and accessible to the public if you go to the next slide please so here are some of the general duties and responsibilities that you typically see City Clerks perform um they prepare minutes of commission Council meetings and as appropriate other boards and committees establish by the municipality um they prepare and distribute agendas for meetings that I just referenced uh provide for public notice of all meetings subject to the Sunshine Law and provide for legal advertising publication and posting of notices as necessary uh maintain custody of Municipal records including ordinances resolution contracts and agreements and promulgates procedures for the orderly management maintenance retention and destruction of said records in accordance with state law law administer the publication maintenance and distribution of the municipal code of ordinances and supplements thereto uh the serve as a local supervisor elections in conjunction and coordination with the County Supervisor elections and provide for responses to public records and informational requests received from staff other agencies and interested parties as provided by State Statute next slide please so here are some additional duties this is a part where it can vary from municipality um such as they provide support to the commission including correspondence mail telephone calls emails conference registration hotel and travel Arrangements prepares Proclamation certificates of appointment appreciation planning coordination of special events Financial disclosure coordinator occupational licensing planning and coordination of special events public information officer and finance director now with all these I'm not pushing for the finance portion um but the the ones you see highlighted in uh in Orange there um those are the ones I think that would be included if if we did approve uh city clerk position but the bottom for I wouldn't I probably wouldn't include that next slide please so who does a city clerk report to Um this can vary by municipalities um the Florida League of cities they did a poll a couple years ago and they got a response of 227 municipalities um 51% of them were um city clerk either reported to the city manager administrator um and this Arrangement aligns the clerk's responsibilities with administrative operations of the city 40% of them um the clerk worked for the city council the Commission in many cities the clerk city clerk reports um sorry this ensures that the clerk office remains independent of the administrative arm of government 7% fall under mayor um this is typically with strong mayor government system uh city clerk May report directly to mayor who serves as the chief executive officer of the municipality in a weak mayor system the clerk um could possibly report to the council instead and then other um there's a couple different uh things that fall under under uh there's independent elected role um and some municipalities use this in such cases they are accountable directly to the voters giving them a degree of independence from other government officials this is common in small towns or cities with specific Charters that emphasize voter accountability and then there's some combination systems where they use a hybrid approach where the city clerk collaborates with multiple governing bodies but retains autonomy in certain areas next slide please so here um here's uh what they uh refer to as the balanced triangle and uh just like in any government corporation it's important to have a balanced system where no single entity becomes too powerful in order to achieve maximum efficiency this essentially forms a triangle where each point represents an entity where each have the power to limit or check the actions of the other two entities this creates a check checks and balance as critical at any level of government so as you can see here um you have three points here you have the city council or for us would be the city commission they're the policy makers and they establish the vision direction for the community's future and then you have the product which is a city manager uh city manager provides services to the taxpayer that taxpayer cannot will not provide for themselves and then you have the city clerk which is the process they ensure that the decision making process is trans arent to the public complies with federal state and local regular regulations and is properly recorded and uh if you click just once please this is um um prior to fiscal year 23 this is how we were structured you had the city commission and then the city manager um who is also a city clerk felon of the commission and then we had a deputy city clerk cck one more time please and then after fiscal year 2023 you have the city commission and where the city manager um falls under city manager and clerk falls under the commission um to me this doesn't develop the tri the balance triangle that I talked about earlier um however it is bidirectional so it goes back and forth but I think we're missing that key piece in the Triangle or the key that key position to create uh that balanced triangle go to the next slide please and so this is the possible Lin havid structure I would like to create where you have the city commission and the city manager um falls under the city commission but the city clerk a separate position falls under the commission instead of the city manager so I'll ask you you know back when Michael White was city manager and if you had a city clerk and they noticed some illegal and ethical things going on how apt would they be how apt would they come out to say something about that where if they fell into the commission they would be more R to come out and say something and that's why I think this is important next slide please so I talked about checks and balances earlier and I wanted to kind of go a little more detail on that and this is the why it's important to have these checks and balances one um checks and balances distribute power across various officials and bodies to prevent any single entity from dominating decision making the safeg guard guards against corruption favoritism and misuse of authority each office or official and the government holds others accountable and Shing policies and decisions align with legal and ethical standards for example a city council might oversee the mayor's actions while a city clerk ensures records are accurate and accessible when powers are distributed there's greater scrutiny of actions and decisions and transparency uh helps build public trust and helps residents understand how their local government operates checks and balances encourage dialogue between different Departments of government this collaboration leads to better decision making and solutions that reflect diverse perspectives and Community needs and by having independent roles such as a city clerk Municipal governments ensured adherence to laws regulations and ethical practices for example election oversight by a neutral party like the clerk helps maintain fairness in the Democratic process Distributing power prevents special interest groups from disproportionately influencing decision ensurance that policy and Ben budgets benefit their the broader Community rather than select individuals or groups and with checks and balances governments can more efficiently address crisis or adapt to changing circumstances oversight mechanisms help identify and rectify errors or inefficiencies next slide please so here are some of the benefits of the city clerk reporting to the commission one uh reporting to the council helps the city clerk maintain independent from the city's Administration functions ensuring impartiality in recordkeeping and election Administration the structure provides an additional layer of oversight over the exe executive branch enhancing accountability and transparency the city commission as elected representatives of the public ensures that the clerk's duties align with the community's needs and priorities and because the council operates in a public setting the clerk's reporting may involve more open discussions increasing government transparency the city's Clerk's primary role often involves supporting the commission with meeting documentation agendas and legal compliance making the council a natural supervisor next slide please so now what well I'm discussing it today in hopes that it'll get approved and if it gets approved today um then it will require to be approved by ordinance will require a first and second reading so we would need to have a first and second reading in January and if that gets approved then it goes on referendum to be voted by the residents so the residents would have a voice in this and they would vote on it on 22 April 2025 so I I think this is a crucial position and I think yeah would it cost a money a little extra money yes but I think the benefit s definitely outweigh it and I think it' be worth our investment so with that being said I'd like to make a motion um for us to press forward uh to have an ordinance to add the city clerk to the Comm under the commission thank you there's a motion to add a city clerk to the upcoming ly Haven election in 2025 is there a second for this motion I'm going to Second it just because I want to open it up for because I have some things to say about it all right motion has been second all right continue discussion okay so I hear what you're saying I I love the idea of checks and balances um I think that's very important uh I think this is a good time to open to discussion of methods to do that but in my line of work work I work very closely in a situation like this and when you add someone like a city clerk the idea is to have an independent entity but when you have someone that works either for the commission or for the city uh the city manager or vice versa it's impossible for a human to be unbiased so for this to truly work the the the third party because a lot of the other stuff that's listed is already kind of done by by other employees but and we would have to pay a full-time salary of someone to do this and this would not be a low salary this would be a high-grade salary position that being said I think those funds would be better used to do some type of thirdparty audit because when you have a thirdparty audit then there is there's no way to have bias if you use a a vetted third party to do this I don't think with a city clerk what's going to happen is you're going to have a bunch of animosity against either the commission or the city manager because there is no truly staying independent they're going to end up picking one side or the other and it's just going to be a constant battle um I deal with this every single day and I on paper it really really does look good it truly truly does checks and balances is important I just think that the city clerk method is not the route a third party audit absolutely I'm all on board for um but city clerk I just in my actual experience with this just doesn't work but that's all I want to say about that so so you say it doesn't work have you talked to other city clerks have you talked to other city managers that have used this method I'm telling you I I do it like I do it every day but when you talk to other city clerk of course they're going to say it works because it's their job so I brought this up at the pre-commission meeting I I called quite a bit of city clerks this was a couple years ago when I looked at originally looked at this and I quickly learned when I the questions I was asking was which method do you think works better at if they only knew one method and that's all they worked with of course they said well yeah that method works better until I found a half a dozen City Clerks that have done both and those were the most vital um information I received and I had qu quite a long conversations with them about it and there are some that were under like under a structure where they're under the city manager and some of them were under the commission but they have done both and unanimously all six of them said the one where they fall under the city commission works better as a whole for the city for multiple reasons once's basically all the reasons I talked before but the big one being transparency um so when you say it doesn't work I would encourage you to call some of those City Clerks and talk to them I'm telling you it no system's perfect got it but when we look back at history of what happened to within Haven I'm trying to prevent another occurrence like that from happening in the future now would that prevent from happening I don't know again there's no perfect system but I think it would have came out at least earlier if possibly preventing that yeah I hear what you're saying I don't think you're I maybe I'm saying it improperly the idea of having checks and balances is not a bad thing um I'm not saying that adding a city clerk would necessarily um you're you're saying both ways I'm saying there's more options than those two ways and I want to explore those options not the option of city clerk under the city man city clerk under a city manager or no City Clerk or a city clerk underneath the commission I'm saying we should do a thirdparty audit where there's an unbiased third party not that there's only two options there's more than two options and I'm saying I like the idea I like where this is headed but the I don't like the idea of clerk okay I do have a few questions uh I guess one is who provides the check and balances to the clerk that would be us the commission so they have five different bosses so if we feel like we're not adequate enough to provide checks and balances to the city manager then why would we add another position that we still would be inadequate to provide checks and balances to that's a a structure thing it's not cuz we it's a structure thing so to me I think it's a better structure falling under the commission because it creates those checks and balances okay all right second who you you noted I noted that according to your presentation that prior to 2023 there was a deputy city clerk of course we've been here since 2021 so who was the deputy city clerk prior to 2023 don't know you know no no I I looked what I did was I looked at the budget you know on the budget how it shows all the Manpower and in the I think it was fiscal year 22 if I remember right I think it showed the deputy city clerk position but then when you look at the fiscal year 23 budget that position is no longer there so that's how I got that information but I don't know I don't know who it was but but I'll say this is I think those duties and responsibilities have been divvied out to multiple different positions you know what I mean so there's there's multiple people doing them yeah and I think I don't think it's just us hiring one person I think you're going to have to basically create a whole another department because that one person from what we've seen is going to have to have multiple people to help them perform those duties so the ones that are performing a lot of those duties now like um um like we talked about the one pre-commission meeting Kevin obos talked about Panama City and how Panama City has I think there's like five people under them and they're actually city employees they don't actually they work for the city clerk but but we don't hire them the city clerk does all those so they're city employees but we could use some of the people we have on staff now for that that that do a lot of those duties so the question then would be if they go under the city clerk then there's no administration of them by the city manager which then as commissioner people said creates conflict because now you would have let's say for example CJ doing duties for the clerk and the city manager and then if someone comes in and says hey I need this done who then takes priority cuz equally both of them are your bosses right and it I mean that's a everyday issue that someone comes in and says I need this done that's on any job who then take priority what we're saying is that both of you all equal so it's up to you to figure out who takes priority now that per that employee can be written up reprimanded Etc because they didn't do what the other supervisor asked them to do because they're between a rock in a hard place because we've put them there so it's not just the clerk position but if we're saying okay hey you're going to have to D up these responsibilities so and you're going to do some work for the city manager you're going to do some work for the city clerk um I think that this creates more tension within that department so that's why it's so important whoever we hire we hire the right person they had to have certain type of personality you know you're going to need someone with a strong Authority by the book type person and and I get that in the book and the uh you know pamphlet that we provide the job description the manual all that's great but we're talking about the reality of if something is due on the same day and city manager ask for something city clerk asks for something who then takes priority that creates a conflict an unnecessary conflict right now all those Duties are being performed and all those individuals are answering to one person therefore when that one person says hey I need this Duty performed they can respond back and say well hey um I still have this other assignment do you want me to post home doing this in order to do this because they know what their schedule is and they know what their calendar is so not only we creating another position we're creating two different administrations is essentially what we're creating so we're creating a doconomy within our city which is not getting us closer to Unity for our city so it's really creating a divide um in in several different ways and so that's that will be one of my concerns um my other concern because I did a little research I guess on some city clerk stuff and what I found is that in the past year at least nine city clerks have been indicted for stealing funds this was with been the past six months as of today inim city clerk $70,000 another city clerk $117,000 another city clerk $155,000 another city clerk $900,000 those those are hold on hold on $551,000 $487 $673,000 in the state of Nebraska and I just jumped to Nebraska and the state of Nebraska in 2022 it was reported that 17 City Clerks stole a total of $1.7 million so I understand we're saying they're not going to be over the finances but how do we expect them to be checks and balances if they're not a part of the financial process and so then they can steal because they have their own Administration they have their own Administration they can still set up because this is what they did they set up their own systems in order to pay their own bills with the city's money so although they may not be the ones exactly writing the checks they can still set up whatever kind of shell account they want and we as the city commission we're going to look at whatever they bring us and say okay hey this is accountability and we're going to be the ones signing off on it so um so seeing those numbers for me is concerning that hey here's a here's City Clerks that are stealing funds from their and this is in the past 6 months this isn't 15 years ago this is recent stuff so and I think also when it comes to the federal you know the Federal indictment I don't know if a city clerk would have saw that or not I I don't I don't know I'm glad it was found um and I think it was staff that noticed it um you know that noticed hey something something's wrong here yeah you know um but again it's just if we're seeing the checks and balances as I mentioned I think if we if someone is set to do corruption I can give you whatever paperwork you need to create my own checks and balances because whatever system we put in place if somebody wants to beat the system they're going to beat it yeah there's no perfect system so so that that's that's what's going to happen so we can continue to you know conate the system we can continue to complicate the system but I just again I just think we're creating an unnecessary dichon right now in our city where creating two totally different administrations and then I did notice when you say continuity my other question is if they're under the commission their position is just as volatile as the city manager's position they're just three votes away a new commission coming in they're three votes away so I I do understand the idea of hey continuity that institutional knowledge but if they're under the city commission then they're not going to be there's no guarantee they're going to be at that position which now we have a lot of flux because you have two different administrations that are open to new positions every four years or within that four-year time frame if we get Tire you know if you get upset with them or angry with them you decide to fire them so I just think it it creates more V you know just more Vitality more issues and again just two different administrations is creating a unnecessary doconomy in our city can I ask a question so all the ones you brought about stealing money I'm assuming that all those City Clerks filled the financial position as a city clerk I'm not pushing for the city clerk to do the financial stuff but you're not understanding you don't have to fill a financial position in order to steal money Michael White didn't fill a financial position and I'm not I'm just saying he was in a financial position I think it was the was it Department of Legal Services Department of Legal Services didn't fill a financial position even the contractor didn't fill a financial position so it you don't have because the eyes are on the financial position so yeah we're going to keep eyes on them so we know they're not going to take anything because all eyes are on them but I don't have to be in a financial position to take money and that's for any organization or any Corporation that's and that can happen with any I mean that can happen with any setup and what I'm saying is seemingly there's a trend for clerks to be stealing money that's what I'm saying in the past 6 months these aren't the what I just read is and I didn't read all of them that's that's why you had the Balan triangle where you got the two entities always checking the or the one entity always checking the other entities you're only going to check what I give you that's all you can check you can only check what I give you and then I think the responsibility as I've always stated even when we talked about the financial Review Committee is for us as um Commissioners mayor to be more engaged and more involved as needed to see the inner workings of the city so if there's um again if there's something that needs to be checked because in the end responsibility falls on us so whatever the city manager does or doesn't do whatever the clerk does or doesn't do it still falls on us and so I think there are some things that we just hey this is going to be our responsibility to check these things if there's more that we want to see if there's more processes that we think need to be put in place commissioner pebles has stated if there's more processes and I guess the thing is what is it what is it more do you want to see what more and I'm not saying we don't have enough but I'm just asking what more do you want to see that we might be able to update revise so that we can provide those checks and balances without a city clerk so what else because from what I'm seeing added the city clerk we're still not adding anything additional we're just adding another person we're not adding any additional tick the city manager is the city clerk I mean I think that needs to be separated needs to be separated and so even if you put that but that's what I founding fathers decided that's just like the Constitution of the United States what our founding fathers decided they wanted to have a manager clerk that's what they decided they wanted to do so so we could so you're saying we should keep the charter as is we had a charter Review Committee we did they brought to they did a great job they brought to us their propositions they said in 5 years we all voted that in 5 years the citizens voted in 5 years we review the charter M so I think in 5 years whenever that comes back up um that we take a review of it you know look at the entire get another committee together review it again I I'll say this is I still think the city clerk needs to be separated from the city manager even if it fell still fell under the city manager it's still a better setup I and I think even better than that it would still be under the city commission you kind of look at the federal government right and I know the federal government's not perfect they got issues but when they first started you know they started with three branches of government you got the Executive Branch the legislative branch and judicial branch and they made that because the same thing with the balanced triangle so each entity is looking out looking over the other entities and make sure that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing so I agree with you but in the federal government all three branches not working in the same area you know what I mean so like in theory I agree and I and that's why I'm pushing for a third party because I agree that there should be a third check and balance but it needs to be someone that does not work with people on a day-to-day basis because when you do that relationships are built whether they're positive or negative and that will sway a decision period it happens so I like the idea a of a three branch government however I think the third branch should be 100% independent and we could take the it would be at a fraction of the cost and as you said there's the policies the procedures and what was the third one the process the policy so we got the policy unlocked product was the third one yeah okay so in the product so we do have the policy and the product unlocked what you're focusing in on is the the process process right and so we need to have someone that is a an expert in process do with process audit at a periodic time that would be ideal because you have as the mayor was talking about you have the administrative issues and you've also pointed out clearing issues as well that's not to say that one that's why I think it's important to have someone that's completely independent of all that because we have the admin that way because right now the administrative stuff is working out uh in a better way than would be if there's constant conflict but then there's also you could argue there's potential that in the future there could be uh transparency issues if you don't have that third party check that's why you need to have an independent third-party person that comes in and does this at a fraction of the cost of what it would cost to pay a full-time salary of a high grade position I just think that's the best Both Worlds that you're getting it that way in the risk management field because when you're looking at this you're looking at the risk of lack of transparency loss of funds the risk of poor processes and all that stuff in the risk management world that's everyone's favorite thing to do if you can afford it defer the risk to somebody else defer it to a professional that knows what they're doing if you can afford it and if we're looking at adding a full-time position we can afford a third party audit commission perno you have anything well um you guys have been going back and forth with opinions and whatnot and commissioner War um uh asked to make this I a presentation and uh um agenda item at the pre meeting we talked about it then uh we mentioned about the about the um the charter Review Committee and what they decided and that was two years ago right that that that came down so it's up for a review in 5 years um and these are all valid points we're we're bringing up about a clerk um um um a clerk that reports the commission is is a good idea and it it can be it could be massage or changed to be one of the people who are currently employed where it wouldn't cost the city as much money for for a full-time position um um then you'd have some sort of hybrid clerk position where someone works for the but they report to the commission you know that's that's something that we can talk about again but um um you know I think the timing isn't to do this now and and and do the first second reading in a and change a referendum in April timing might be to to to hang on to this you know make sure the charter Review Committee or the the next Charter Review Committee has this as a top priority and and make a decision at that time um or or possibly morph it into one of the people that are that are currently working to if if if it means that much to report to the commission I do know that the the the um um I asked the City attorney and Panama City has a clerk Panama City Beach has a clerk um and I think the AL Mexico Beach they all fall under the commission the um I think that um the um the clerk I do believe the clerk in Panama City is responsible for just recently bringing to the the attention of the shortfall in their in their in their Reserve funds M you know so that's something that's very that that's very valid that that a clerk is a is a you know is is a good you know it's a good thing in in that respect now our current city manager's been in place for a while her her contract is going to end at a certain time she has taken the position of a clerk and spread it out over over three people around her and we we kind of all know that and we made that not our defense but our our topic of debate with with commissioner war on Friday so I'm I'm kind of recapping but my my feeling is is that you know right now it it it may not be necessary but is it is it valid and and a point that we need um you know it believe commission work want you you're thinking about the future you're thinking about setting up a model so when the next city manager comes in there's a clerk in place and and there's a clerk that reports to the commission and then that city manager just comes in and so it's not something the city manager would set up it's something that we want rooted in in in in the process correct so product process you know so um you know it it it definitely raises a thought for me that you know that something we need to look at but presently I think we have a system in place you know um I think we need to we need to um we need to know that everybody under that system can talk to the commission and as well as you know I know they take direction from the city manager but um if there's ever anything that that needs to be brought to our attention I I I think think we should have that Avenue of communication so that's my feelings right thank you commissioner vandagriff when commissioner wart brought this to our attention I asked him to give some time so that we could and do some investigations so I spoke to members of um the various new um municipalities around town the beach the Callaway Panama City I spoke to Mayors I spoke to Commissioners I did not speak to clerks um my concern concern is that I have several concerns one is that the the charter said let's review I mean gives us an opportunity to review it would also give us time to agree right now we can't even agree on whether or not to have a clerk much less the responsibilities of the clerk um the responsibility ities are varied throughout the municipalities um they did most of them were very positive about having a clerk um they said it all depends on the personality though um they've had good situations they've had very bad situations and so the key is of course with the Personnel um they did discuss with me that um you're you're never going to have someone that is independent you know um they're going to be responsible to the board the commission so that's where their loyalties are going to be you have five people you're trying to please so that was an issue um and let me refer back to what happened several years ago after the um the hurricane um commissioner War said well maybe that could have if we'd had a clerk maybe it could have prevented you know corruption if somebody really wants to be corrupt they they're going to be corrupt I would hope that if an employee or a citizen knew that something illegal was going on regardless of whether or not they were a clerk or just an employee that they would have told law enforcement and um you know back then my understanding is it only took one signature on the check well my word I I'd be attempted if it was only one signature um that's a joke I know people don't understand what what do they say on Facebook LOL or something like that um but we have remedied that now that it takes more signatures and that there is a process now that they have to go through with uh multiple signatures in the review and then multiple signatures on the um checks and so they realized that that was um an issue oversight uh that's been brought up several times about oversight you know you know there's politics and everything you know you can say that they're independent and that won't be involved in politics but I'm sorry there's even politics in church you know it's everywhere and so it's just depends on where their loyalties lie um so I'm I'm of the opinion that kind of like U Mr commissioner perno now's not the time we have too many We can't agree right now on if and what and we want citizens to vote Yes at sometime we we need to present something to the citizens and get their opinion but now I don't I I don't think now is the time I think we need to follow uh we have a charter and we've we need to follow what um has been recommended thank you uh there is a motion on the floor um any comments from the public Parker G Parker R Place guys this isn't rocket science mayor you stated that um a city clerk can steal let me remind you of something so can a city manager so can a city manager hired an assistant city manager without approval of the commission why was that done why was that done shouldn't that have come before the commission I was on the charter committee I made a motion to have a city clerk the one thing that really bothered me about being on the charter committee is that Vicky Gainer was in attendance in every single one of those meetings she should have not have been she controlled the meeting and gave her input constantly that was a control Factor again shouldn't have Happ happen it's total control when you have a city manager that is also a city clerk that is a control factor I don't I don't know why this is so difficult have somebody in there that can have checks and balances that can do what they need to do in order to make sure that there's transparency I'm telling you since hurricane Michael I haven't seen transparency there's so much corruption in this Panhandle it it's enormous the good old boy system is a well in live and y'all know it everybody knows it but y'all ignore it y'all every single one of you Commissioners that I met with G got information that was not my opinion it was facts from a federal investigation and every single one of you ignored it blatantly do y'all not believe in facts y'all not to believe in the testimony that Vicky Gainer gave lady you owe me an apology please keep your comments directed to the but then you can tell her she owes me an apology she owes christe maroy an apology Jody Moore Bernie Thompson I had a conversation with her she said it's what she she thought at the time well it was wrong you ESS apology this needs to be rectified there needs to be checks and balances I don't know what's so difficult about it there needs to be checks and balances when you have a city manager that is also the city clerk that is control tactic period thank you Michelle Bashers 811 Louisiana Avenue I don't usually speak off the cuff but I'm going to try to say what I want to say this time um I listen to all of your reports mayor and the Commissioners um I've been disappointed with them for quite a while now um it seems that all you do is go to parades and tree lightings and other than that there's nothing except she mentioned a TPO meeting I would like to know what the Commissioners and the mayor are doing during the two-e period between each meetings so um at this point there's my assumption that y'all do nothing for this citizens of Lin Haven I'm going to tell you something the presentation was biased the um assumptions is that the city clerk would be honest um ly Haven does have a city assistant city manager that you didn't present on the flowchart um your um um your information is old um if if you just talked to six clerks if if the commissioner spoke to just six clerks six years ago whatever um that's not new information also we just need to move on from 2019 um things have been done um there's not been any reports of of um you know stealing or anything like that and are are are the employees coming to the commissioner the mayor with complaints about the system that's in place right now thank you right thank you hold on one second um would any of the Commissioners like to respond in regards to what they do during their two-e period um I know for me uh events is usually probably the last thing that I'm able to attend in so probably at least twice a week and probably at least four times a week I do call the city manager um I try to meet with her face to face at least twice a week to give a rundown of what is happening what is going on um and then I have to come in the office sign paper work so when I do that process I'll check with CJ to see if there's any additional things that I need to be aware of any additional things that are happening um so I try to keep a cuz I'm also the treasurer um according to the Charter so I try to keep a good idea of of what's Happening um with within the city and the city manager does share things with me um lets me know how I'm going to share this with the commission if it's something that comes to our level and even if it's something that doesn't come to our level just so we can be aware um of what's of what's Happening um as well as just trying to engage with other citizens throughout the community to see what we have going on right now we're I'm getting ready for the upcoming legislation so there's been conversations with our um legislative representative or uh with our legislative representatives in prep in preparation for that matter of fact after this meeting we're going to be meeting with our uh lobbyist to ensure that we have everything in place getting ready for uh the upcoming legislation getting some independent meetings with them as well so that's some of what we if we just look over the past couple of weeks um some of the things that I've been that I've been doing we have oh CU I I mean I talk to citizens of linh Haven every day and I I've had meetings with the um the the St Joe Bay Estuary people and the Water Management people and talk to Chris I talked to department heads um good Lord um went to TPO meeting you know uh I actually didn't par I was at the tree lighting but I didn't go to the parade but you you know I feel like um i i i i Echo the sentiments of the citizens I speak with every every day and I'm engaging the the the the the city business as much as possible as a as a commissioner um I as far as my my time management pretty much stinks you know I walked in here a minute late I'm running all the time so I just uh uh I just keep an open book and open face toward toward anybody and uh I see I see folks every day and I see folks only at meetings but uh I know I can talk to anybody within the city and they should have a should have a rapport where they could talk to me as well on I think I've established that over over time in my business and whatnot so um that's my justification for the last two weeks so all right thank you um Miss Moore J morning am her street um you keep talking about the uh checks and balances and some rectifications that were made after Hurricane Michael the person who put those in place were Margo herself she's the one who who did that so don't take credit for that also um the uh Deputy um city clerk was I believe Vicky Gainer if you weren't correct to me but I believe it was you um also want to talk about the um uh well you keep bringing up about theft of uh City Clerks you know City Clerks committing theft so nine people over the whole country in six months did you do any research on how many city managers stole money because there's probably some people who did that too like y'all said if somebody's going to have that mind set they're going to do it and I know of at least one city manager who stole you know helped steal $5 million from this city it's always better to have more people more eyes looking on things um commissioner pebles brought up this audit um I guess uh again it's input they're going to look at what they give you I bet you Michael White could have um you know probably passed an audit too it's uh you just need someone who's inside that's seeing the day-to-day operations of things that are going on um again you you guys are trying to you know throw up all these roadblocks some of you maybe you want to look at it you know for the future I'll tell you I went to the um the charter commission um the charter meetings when Jerry was there and the other members of the the committee um I Heard the conversations that were happening Jerry brought it up and wanted the city clerk and she was shot down one of the reasons that was given us you know there's no money blah blah blah okay the citizens never got to decide whether they wanted that or not it was not put on there um so I think an opportunity needs to be given for that to happen you know most cities of any size have city clerk you guys have already talked about this I don't know of any municipality in this um and you know in the Panhandle or Bay County that doesn't have a city clerk so you're not Reinventing the will here you know see how it works for other people and I I just say considering what happened I'm I agree with Jamie what happened um a city clerk would be a good idea and especially one who reports directly to the commission I think they can work coopera with the city manager and you can take some of the money that you want to pay the city manager extra which is the next agenda item and you can pay the city clerk for that I just think like I said The more eyes on you know uh the situation the better and listen if you hire a city clerk and it's not working out then you can get someone else you know maybe the if the citizens decide that is not a good idea they can vote off you know change a charter again but I agree with Jamie I think this needs to come before the citizens let it be on the next agenda item or the next election and let the people decide thank you thank you Mr Johnnie Bashers Louisiana Avenue um I'm sorry I'm going to repeat a couple things that some of y'all have already said but and I'm not prepared so bear with me so in the slide you show Bas I think it was 226 227 cities in the state of Florida have city managers um less than half of those report to the city commission there's currently the 227 represents about half the cities in the state so and this is going on information that's provided so less than a quarter of the cities in the state of Florida have a city manager that report to the city commission that should tell you one thing that that is not the majority view of what needs to happen in City management um so you put up a list of Duties that would fall to this city clerk my question you look at it and you say well none of this is being done and that's not accurate I think every one of those is being done current currently and we're adding a position that's just not really going to add anything you're you're saying let's make a report to the city commission which puts the city clerk out of the chain of command which is a recipe for disaster and then you say well it's not a political point and to Mrs Big's point it is it's very much political if I'm at a job and I report to five politicians you can believe it's political um there's no way around it it's going to be political you're talking about what about a 70,000 a year job something like that you can say the the money's small but it's not small it's significant um and let's get back to to the reality there was an issue that you had or some of you had with the current city manager not long ago it was brought before you and four out of five people decided to proceed the way we proceeded so the system's working just because you may not agree with what the decision is doesn't mean the commission is not doing what it's supposed to do and reviewing the city manager's performance right now we're doing that and we just are and to commissioner people's point is what you're looking at is an omni buzzman basically somebody that somebody that can come in if there's a complaint or concern and can look at it one-on-one at that point not a permanent position not anything like that so if if you want to do something like that I can see that I can see having a champion that you can call in sometime to to fix something if you need to right now if if you're concerned you can't do anything with current city manager what makes you think you're going to have any luck dealing with the city clerk it's just a recipe for disaster add somebody out of the chain and come in that that is going to be at odds with everybody all the time I think we need as my wife says we need to move on there's things this city needs to get done we've got a a major sewage treatment facility we've got to deal with we've got a lot going on and that's what we need to be concentrating on is moving the city forward not delving in the past and and last we have a system of checking balances right now and I think it functions fine thank you all right thank you so there is a motion by uh commissioner Ward second by commissioner Peebles to move this agenda item forward as uh to present on the upcoming um election cycle in 2025 as a referendum item um see minut if you call the vote commissioner Ward yes commissioner pebles no commissioner vff no commissioner perno no not at this time mayor Nelson no motion did not pass moving on to agenda item number 12 discussion and possible approval of resolution 2024 12447 approving the Second Amendment of the city's agreement with the city manager clerk City attorney yes mayor this is my item um it's housekeeping it makes five proposed changes three of which uh represent current practices that have been previously approved by the commission um there are two new uh Provisions with regard to an extension of the term by to December 2020 7 um and an agreement of the commission to consider an ordinance to change the retirement multiplier specifically for the city manager you did discuss at your pre-commission Workshop um an adjustment to the base salary this document in front of you does not do that but with an amendment to the motion um certainly okay um I do know we asked for some uh some things to be sent to us for review as we prepared to discuss this know Miss h sent us some of that um information is there any questions for Miss Hodes regarding the information that we received from her so the one question I have is I guess prior city managers did fall under the general employee retirement fund did any of those city managers I think they all just fell under whatever the policy was for all those employees or did they actually get an extra bump in their retirement the the factor whatever you call that factor from the research uh mayor and commissioner excuse me um it appears that the the pension as we have it now under ordinance was adopted in 1991 um and that we did have uh what I did find out late was that commission city manager John Lynch opted not to participate in the pension uh it was made available to him but however city manager Joel Schubert Michael White and Vicky uh Gainer are both are were in the general or are in the general pension um in terms of changes to the uh term area it appears that they worked as a a general member until the recent change of the 5 years when Vicki came on and got that negotiated however that has been also done in different municipalities because of the volatility of the position yeah I've talked to I've talked to other city managers and um not just recently but before and I've had every one of them they're like yeah I would never apply to be a c manager of linhaven because the vesting period is 10 years and they explained to me why that is so I I I totally understand that um but the question I have is did any of the prior city managers when they they participated in the retirement plan did any of them get an extra Factor than what's in the policy the multiplier no that was that was not discussed okay um or part of their plan however as you discuss this issue with other city managers and you'll see in our own municipality a spreadsheet that some cities contribute 100% on behalf of the city manager in other words they're they're not having to contribute to the pension rather that the employer does the full pension contribution um I know in dtin there that is done in dtin uh there's other percentages that are added so they they're every place is negotiated slightly different uh depending on what the agreement reads there's not one size fits all okay are there additional questions for Miss hajes um yeah so the overtime thing um I understand Martin Luther King the city manager was given overtime for that how did how did that all get I understand you sent an email and I didn't realize it until the City attorney mentioned it to me I went back I looked through my emails and I found it it was sent I think it was sometime in January of this year I looked to see if I responded to it I didn't see my response so I believe what happened is you pull the the all the the commission to see if they would approve if she got overtime what was the response on that four four responses to the positive okay and again that was based on a policy in which uh if there's disaster or extraordinary services for exempt it's just not city managers it's for exempt employees and because uh the city manager reports to you I did the email requesting you all to review the policy the situation and determine whether there would be an extraordinary payment um that's all I have um that was for one event right correct just one event that for one event um as is there I mean the city manager is a is a contracted employee correct so the you know the other exempt employees are not under contract correct so that that kind of creates a you know in my head it kind of creates a little difference U um as far as straight overtime you know um I'm I'm an old restaurant manager and man when when my day off was Sunday and we still have to do inventory in the restaurant my butt had to be there for inventory you know I didn't get any extra pay but you know and you're you're there another four or five hours doing inventory you know so so it's just it just comes with the territory you know well so I got a I got a hard time with u a contracted um person being paid overtime now a specific event and they they planned it and you know on Case by case kind of thing yeah you you you know I know she put in a lot of time before the event and then was there all day during the event CU I was I was there half the day and she was there the whole time so you know I I could see on a Case by case situation that stuff like that can can can come up and yeah you know you're you went over and above this or that but uh I don't know about putting it in the in in in the in the contract that's that's my only problem with regard to holidays specifically um her contract says that she's expected to work 40 days except Municipal holidays so we are trying to address specifically that situation where she is working on holidays so I don't know if any of you guys any any of you I'm sorry have talked to other city managers about this have any of you talked to other city managers and asked them hey uh do you get overtime or is overtime in your contract no you should could you be surprised the responses you get usually comes with a chuckle or they were like heck no right and I understand that cuz normally I'm a salary employee I other days I put in extra hours than what I'm scheduled for of course because I got to make sure the company's taken care of my boss he definitely puts in more hours than I do uh does he get paid overtime no he's salary too and but if he got paid overtime but I didn't get paid overtime I probably wouldn't like that too much and that's one of the issues I have with this is you know are are the other salary employees do they get overtime when they work over 40 hours I I just I don't think this is a good idea well I would say on a weekly basis our city manager already works over 40 hours on a regular basis so we're not even talking about does she work over 40 hours so at times when I pop in at 7:15 7:30 she's here y when I stop by 5:00 or 5:30 because you can't come early doing regular operating hours she's here so she's already working beyond the 40 hours and then when we do have a holiday where she should be able to go home home and with her family she like the other employees are here working on behalf of the city Beyond now the 40 the over 40 hours that she's already worked so we're not talking about hey we have a a city manager that's working 8 to 5 or whatever that time frame looks usually she doesn't take a lunch so she works beyond the 40 hours already probably 55 to 60 hours and now we're saying hey we want you to come here on holidays where and then if she doesn't come because she's saying hey I've already worked 50 hours this week if she's not there for a holiday event 4th of July Christmas parade Fourth of July parade then we're going to have another issue about that I think it's just that we need to look at it from a a basis of being what's fair based on what we're doing in the city of L Haven not necessarily what other cities are doing but we already have a city manager that's working above and beyond what the contract obligation already says regarding 40 hours when I go when I do go to other cities they're there late and they leave early that's what I see other city managers do so when I call to speak to other city managers they're not there 4:30 they're already gone 8:00 they're not in the office so so that's what I do experience with other city managers is hey let me call at 8:00 they're not there let me call at 4:30 cuz it's my time to call they're not available to me I totally relate to work in many many hours um I remember when I was in the military for 23 years there are many many times I worked well over 12 hours there are times I was away from my family did I get any extra pay for it no did my bosses get any extra pay for it no none of us did because we knew that was our that was our part of our contract we were salary can I just clarify something um one of the things with over time is that I try to give staff some time off with some of these holidays so they're not working these holidays so I choose to to work that holiday so that the staff can have time off and so you can ask them um MLK was one of those Case Case by case um bases where I did not want to call in all staff to work that day so they could have that day off so it was literally three salaried employees working that day and then the rest of them were hourly that would get paid anyway so it's not something that I do all the time it's just that when I'm trying to to give salary employees time off instead of working holidays and so I take the brunt of it that's all that is have one update one of my um employees Ben Jank who is the chair of the general pension and has the institutional knowledge did advised me that city manager John Lynch actually negotiated a 401K pension for himself uh specifically during his term as city manager that the city made the contributions to here's another question I have that I know we're saying this is house cleanup but I'm struggling with this it says in here where is it orinal contract we're supposed to do an evaluation once a year I think the whole time I've been here I think we've only done one evaluation correct and when you read this they wanted to I'm trying to remember what it says says a review and evaluation shall be conducted annually in advance of the adoption of the annual budget but yet we did the valuation it was late November or early December we had just done the budget like two not even 3 months prior to that and it's been over a year since we've done an evaluation so I think some of these items we need to do a performance evaluation before we make the decision on some of those things so which specific items do we need to do a performance evaluation on before we make a the extension of our contract the retirement so do you think we should extend her contract what's that do you think we should extend her contract no why is that well I mean you brought it up so I did I did so I will say this when we went and did one-on-one with evaluations mine was I think it was Valentine's Day February 14th and then the next day that's when the crap hit the fan and a lot of things have changed since then me and the city manager have talked about this multiple times there's concerns and I brought this up at the pre-commission meeting I brought this up at the pre-commission meeting about my concerns about the city rebuild there's still things I don't understand about the city rebuild that has not been explained to me we went from projecting to be $5.2 million coming out of pocket now we're up to $18 million right I don't understand that um I brought up at a pre-commission meeting can we have I had those concerns can we have the financial review board look at that I don't think they've looked at it yet have they so they're looking at the city rebuild they have looked at the city B rebu almost a year ago I think Kiki brought them all of that information with the city rebu almost a year ago we might need a workshop on it cuz I don't know do you guys understand it cuz I don't understand it I don't I have concerns with that um yeah so there's and we've talked about certain City attorney um still haven't gotten an answer on that um yeah so there's been issues I've I've had and uh I've lost trust and faith in the city manager now I'm not saying she hasn't done a lot of good things she has but there are some there are some areas that I I'm not happy with so you're and if I so everything was okay until she didn't fire Ricky Rond like you told her to no there was things I marked her down on before that oh absolutely now there was a couple things I marked it down at there was a three and the rest of them were good he gave me a three and it was on either four or five four all fives correct four and five are really good M so what are you suggesting commissioner Ward I suggest that we need to figure out what the schedule is for her performance evaluation and we need to do that first right A lot of these now the one thing I will mention I don't have a problem approving it but got some issues with it and I know we've talked about it is the car allowance she talked to me it was over a year ago okay she told me she goes hey uh just want to let you know um and I don't remember the exact words but I've been looking at um my car allowance I think it's below average in what a typical city manager had receives and um I'm going to be requesting from the commission an increase in my car allowance I said well if that's what the numbers say yeah that makes sense and I probably would have approved it but we keep saying that we have already voted on that I went back and I looked at the September both September 2023 commission meetings there wasn't one mention one mention of her car allowance we approved the budgets but not one mention of our car allowance there was I even looked at watch the budget Workshop not one mention of the car allowance um I'm trying to think when we did our one-on ones I don't think there was even mention of the car you're saying there was was one1 with each commissioner when we did budgets we talked about it we had two people in there miss PES was in there Kiki was in there and we I pointed out that the car allowance was um increased in that budget now when the budget was app approved the the car allowance um increase was approved as well did we do housekeeping to put that contract to update that contract that is what what um Miss Myers is doing right now but but my point is yeah we approve the budget and the budget's important to make sure that we have the finances for it and we budget it out but then you have a contractual responsibility we didn't do the contractual side of it that's the issue that I have um I'll be honest when I first got I received this I saw that I'm like when did we approve that I had no idea um we know the budget long there's a lot of lines in there I'm not going to catch every single little thing um but I I don't remember talking about one-on-one can we ask them I'd like to ask them see if they remember it because I don't remember it how just was wrong this would have happened a year ago and I do remember the one on ones and going over the details of the budget so you all do have to look at a lot of things but that is your responsibility MH if there's questions it should be raised and discussed in further detail at that time I will remind you that the PRI prior city manager City but uh vehicle car allowance was exactly what it's at now for the city man yeah I I don't have issue with increasing her car allowance I'm just disagreeing with the process so so this one when this was originally approved was in the September it was September 2023 budget I don't think you were there one on one them were you when we said were you do you remember us specifically talking about car allowance over in the we were still in the trailers we were still in the trailer her office and I do remember uh having a conversation about it cuz I remember specifically asking what is that total going to be and what's you know what is that incremental increase between the 450 to the 750 what is that total going to be and then I just said you know once Kiki gave me the total I was like okay that's fine so I do remember speaking about it during the 101s MH over in the the trailers and it went from I can't remember 4500 to 9,000 or 4,000 to 9,000 pointed that out guys so I sorry if I asked Kiki I'm sorry I don't mean to put you on the spot I'm sorry my understanding of a contractual employee is that any increases should be discussed in public and voted on by the entire commission do you remember us talking about the car allowance at all I know it's been a while so you may not remember I went back and looked at my calendar in my calendar we had our one-on ones in August right the assistant city manager handed me a paf at the end of September I said oh this has been approved and she said yes I was in meetings with each of the Commissioners to discuss it I was not present for those discussions okay you were in the budget meetings with those folks and and we need to go through it as every commissioner do you remember us talking about that um I honestly don't remember but I would have approved it so I that's 20 August 23 I had I had heart surgery in May so I was probably still getting my wits about me yeah you know so I I my memory from coming back from life support was not the best after uh pre uh pre pre-surgery so so but I would have approved it and I do I I do think it's you know it needs to be you know what it is now so um so so I I guess the question commissioner work is what are we what are you wanting to do with Section d section D is that the car allance that's the one you're speaking about section D or SE d section A eight yeah I'm I'm fine with it I'm just saying I have issues with the way that came that went down the process was not done correctly that's the issue I have I have no problem approving her car allowance for $750 and that that's me too probably correct amount okay all right any other concerns um he mentioned the the city hall rebuild that it's and I know a previous public speaker said something about that too so I mean uh we we know for a fact that I asked in the pre meeting if we could get pull up the minutes from the previous commission meeting when before you guys were even on the commission um as to what we capped what what was the cap we put a we put a to to spend no more than and I'd like to know where we're at and whether we're over that cap or not and I know there was there was uh along the way there's there's a change orders and I know one was brought to the commission about the this the uh um the U over the sidewalk U canopy or whatever it was but there was several several more so I'd like to get it out there as to what publicly what it is you know where we at on the rebuild yeah I I'm of the opinion that we should I know we're getting off topic but I'm of the opinion that we need a workshop on it cuz I still got questions and I've been asking for months and months about it you know I think the whole thing we're coming to us right now and it's the last meeting of the year and we're talking about 2027 I think if we I think honestly the two things that stick out with me on this I I don't know about the contract okay um what what's in front of us the five points or whatever but I know that her car allowance should be 750 and I think we should look at her salary and it being bumped you know because where she is and where other commiss and where whether City man a straight salary change is okay with me and a and and a car allowance but when you're talking about overtime holidays all that stuff I mean I I I don't want to I don't want to get into that I was very quiet Friday when we talked about this because my my I was saving my opinions for right now and in in public um because I don't it's it's hard to talk about someone's salary when they're standing right there in front of you it was it was hard Friday so I kept my mouth shut and got my nerve up today so um you know that's that's kind of where I'm at and I don't mind tbling this till the next so we have time so if there's a a workshop that we want to do on on on on the uh I I'll go back to talk about the the performance evaluation that needs to be redone and we need to get on a certain schedule on that I don't know why it wasn't done correctly so this is why it was well it sounds like we're just Quagmire right now why don't we table it and and and break it down in a pre- meeting where we can okay we need a workshop okay we need a and so this doesn't seem like it's the one thing we're voting on today it seems like we got several agenda items out of this that we can that we have to figure out plus I you know we have an audit coming up and and I don't know um and we have a City attorney um you know if if if there's something we want to look at specifically like the the rebuild to city hall or something like that we should we should possibly direct direct them so and that's something that we that you know if we have those kind of questions and then those correlate to Performance of the city manager I know but um I I I got enough stuff swimming in my head right now to say hey let's table this till till the till the second meeting in January or something like that so we can get at least two pre- meetings out and figure out what we want to do is that a motion I would make that motion if someone would come with me is there a second I'll second that I think it's a fair compromise all right is there discussion from the public Miss Parker Jerry Parker Brett place I would like to give the definition of a salaried employee it's someone that receives a fixed amount of compensation for their work regardless of how many hours they work salaried employees are not entitled to overtime pay what are y'all trying to do what yall trying to do had it she's a salaried employee if she works an event she works an event if she doesn't she doesn't this isn't guys y got to stop doing this care for me yes Ma I I agree with you and that's that's my feelings but also agree also when you look on paper the woman's the lowest paid city manager and and she doesn't need to be uh so I I'm I'm I'm I'm all I don't understand the the contract and the process and I don't know whether we need to put stuff in it or not so that's why I'm asking to table it but I agree with you on the salary employee thing but I know salary is lower than it should be and I appreciate that um and I think we should wait until after the election as well to increase anything um we've got two seats that are up we don't know who's running who's not um I think we should wait until after the election to decide this situation thank you all right thank you Miss Moore I think the C manager works a lot of hours but you know what would help with that if you hired a city clerk they could give her some help if that could happen um just a read rate but some other people said she's a salaried employee and by definition a salaried employee is someone who receives a fixed amount of pay um and that's according to what Pat was was saying I think that's his sticking point um Pat was saying to give her an increas in salary if that's the way you vote that's the way you vote but um her base salary you correct me if I'm wrong is already one um 143 4.99 I want to be very exact in 20 cents so it's almost 143 five okay um with a proposed increase in the car allowance that's an additional $99,000 a year and then there are health and retirement benefits so her total compensation package is already $200,000 a year again if I'm incorrect about that then you know that's fine um so it's on the table to pay her even more if she wants to work on a holiday well I know that's been tabled so my question would be if you do vote for that what would be the pay rate and how many extra hours are you talking at so ambiguous if you do something like that if you're if you want to increase their salary then maybe you should just do a straight salary increase but you know just me as my opinion um I think that that even isn't even in in play it should not be an evaluation definitely needs to be done she was up for censure just a couple of months ago um so I know some people at least a few people have got some issues with that um you know there are multiple lawsuits filed against the city right now and Miss Gainer is one of the reasons for all those lawsuits why would you reward that so I know some people don't want to look in the past but you know what the past is informing the present right now and there's repercussions that are continuing you can't just ignore what happened in the past and just look at the you know the blue skies okay they're still it's still coming to Bear today and you can't ignore that thanks all right thank you Mr basher Johnny Basher at liian Avenue I was a salar employee for years and years I worked a lot of hours some weeks I worked not so many hours some weeks I didn't get paid overtime that's the nature of a salar position but I do want they say well um salary means that you don't dictate your hours and you don't so any city manager that's on salary she could work 20 hours a week if she's meeting your your expectations and doing her duties and gets it done in 20 hours she doesn't have to work we're talking about holidays there's no requirement for her to work holidays she can start taking holidays off so you have to decide what do you want from your city manager I will agree that a performance evaluation should be done before any raise is ever considered for any position otherwise you're basing it on not adequate information so tabling it and And discussing later maybe that's the thing to do I I don't disagree with that but salar you get paid watch you get paid and you work the hours necessary to complete your duties and get your job and if you want to perform beyond that that's great but that's up to you you don't have to do that you can take your normal work week and be done with it the city car thing or the the car allowance give her a city vehicle don't worry about it if if you're concerned about that money over the year buy a city vehicle and see if that's cheaper than paying her the car allowance that's typic that's that's my comments thank you additional public commentary right there's a motion on the floor uh motion by commissioner perno see amend if you'll call the vote commissioner perno yes commissioner pbl yes commissioner Vandergriff yes commissioner War yes mayor Nelson no motion passed agend item number 13 discussion and possible approval of resolution 2024 to obligate funds received under the American Rescue plan Act of course it's something that we did get a chance to discuss on Friday um and ask Miss um Kiki the various questions that we needed to um are there any additional questions for her at this time yes one question I have is with paying off um the 17th Street ditch project is there approximate how much that would save us in interest million3 so we save 1.3 million in interest in the storm water department yes which is significant for the storm water utility and what is the approximate increase that they would receive in the storm water department on an annual basis by us paying this off prematurely oh it it will save the department 20 250,000 in Interest next year is that the question so it savs them 250,000 in interest so basically it bumps it up 250 correct okay but over the course of the note it's a million three okay what was the percentage on that note I don't recall sir I'm sorry I'd have to get back to you on that any additional questions for Miss Roman uh just a comment I um thank the city for bringing it to the financial review board uh for them to look at it um we got pretty smart people on there so I appreciate them looking at it and for you what you do thank you thank you all right uh is there a motion for this a motion to approve oh I'm sorry if you read the resolution a resolution of the city of L Haven Florida obligating funds received under the American Rescue plan act all right is there a motion for this motion to approve second right any discussion from the public all right City minut we call the vote commissioner Peebles yes commissioner War yes Comm commissioner vandagriff yes commissioner perno yes mayor Nelson yes motion passed I do do have one more question and it's probably in here but I just want to be on public record if you could come back Miss Kiki that our our citizens will know um how much debt are we paying off by when we just pass this motion like what is the 4 million4 okay 4 million4 all right thank you you're welcome right number 14 discussion and possible approval of resolution 2024 1244 for extending the city L Haven Finance Review aot Committee City manag fre read by title only please resolution of the city of Lin Haven Florida amending resolution 20228 385 expanding the duties of the finance committee Review Committee providing an effective date and providing a dissolution of the committee all right um there any questions about this one right is there a motion for this one is excuse me is this to do away with the finance just to extend it extend it okay okay yeah just we're just extending it motion to go ahead motion to approve I'll second the motion all right motion and second um you had some further discussion commissioner perno no okay um any additional discussion this is something that we basically have to do every year if we want to keep it or is it every two years uh every year this this isn't time to to change the vot the vote the voting members or anything like like Mr Walker was saying no um well this is the time to this would be the time to do that yes because we're actually reviewing the entire document so yes this would be the time to okay then then then I would I would want to discuss that with the commission if that that was okay sure I just figured i' I'd have discussion and ask if what what what are what are your feelings as far as um we we heard from the public and people who are on different review committees should should should um members of the city be voting members I just trying to think of other committees and that I don't know of any other committee that's like that off the top of my head um I I guess I'm I'm leaning towards favor in where they don't vote because the whole idea is it's supposed to be made up of residents and residents are the ones that give the feedback and decide what they want to vote on and how they want to vote yeah I think we definitely in that scenario though would want to require them to be there in an advisory role to answer any questions because it' be hard to vote on something if you don't have a person there to answer the question oh it's kind of like with the planning board you got the development and planning department head they're there to advise but they don't vote Yes it's only similarity I can think of so I can only speak for myself I have only voted on on that com Review Committee once I did not realize that I was expected to vote until the last meeting um and we had the City attorney on the phone that told us Mrs Gainer and myself that we we were supposed to be voting and at that time I said I have never voted but I did vote that one occasion never voted no not until that one meeting I'll say my comments to Mr Walker was based on the presidents that the meetings that I had been attending that there was no voting by the city manager or uh Miss Kiki so it hasn't been since we've commit since we've uh initiated the committee that they vote every meeting cuz the meetings I would attend it would just be those five committee members that would make the motion they would do the vote and they were there to provide the input provide the information that was needed um but I didn't go to to the last meeting which is the one they voted at so the previous meetings that I attended in person or by phone they never voted so that's why I wasn't aware that they they voted it's completely up to you how you want to structure this committee we did and giving that opinion I did go back 2021 establishing the committee and it was clear from those minutes the city manager and finance director were intended to be two of the seven uh that were appointed and so for that reason I determined that they were also intended to vote if it is your intention to make them advisory non-voting members I would ask for clarification on your um how many members of the committee do you want will it still be seven appointed by the committee or by the commission or five it would be my opinion there would be five right I agree and I I think um I think when we probably appointed the seven we were placing them there because they're the ones with the knowledge about the finances um but I don't think we had the intention of them actually being voting members of the committee I believe when we initially um proposed that that we had the five that we had selected you know among the citizens and hey these these two individual these two positions need to be on the committee so I think that's what we're that's how the seven came appointing them to the committee but we I assume we were think get an advisory role and I recommend you change that section three to to state that the committee shall consist of five members appointed by the commission and change the last line of that section to read city manager and Deputy Finance director shall also serve as non- voting advisory members of the I think that sums it up I was going to say five voting members but make sure the city manager and the finance person are are in advisory so all right so you'll like to um I think he has to amend his motion I have to agree to remove mine if I'm not mistaken so who made the motion Mr war and I second all right well yeah he made the motion if you can just oh you made I made the just okay yeah you made it okay I remove I would like to remove my motion um and amend it so that um keep your motion just a minute to include what she said yeah amend amend my motion what she said all right I I'll second that all right um any comments from the public no comments uh city manager you call the vote commission work yes commissioner perno yes commissioner pebles yes commissioner venag yes mayor Nelson yes motion passed moving on to number 15 discussion of possible approval of resolution 20242 445 budget adjustment for the fiscal year 2425 uh city manager if you read by title only please the resolution of the city of L Haven amended the final budget for fiscal year 2425 and provid an effective date any questions regarding the um amendments to the budget and I guess just for the public if you could just give us a highlight of what we're adjusting certainly um the there are several uh projects that were being done in fiscal 24 that did not wrap up by the end of the fiscal year so we're rolling those uh there are a couple of projects that um the sewer trailer jet we're adding that uh we had to add money for the ninth and oh Ohio Avenue intersection upgrade um there's just a total of a,1 186,000 that we're adding to the budget all right thank you any additional questions for Miss Roman yes I just want to reiterate the fact that the majority of this money is a carryover from projects that have not finished that we're not creating ways to spend more money is that correct um I don't know if it's the majority of them many I'm sorry I don't have no one's 300 one's like 400 so that's like 700,000 okay am I correct in that statement then yes thank you all right any additional questions comments all right was there a motion may I add one small thing after I did this resolution you had instructed um Mr Baker to do a study for the uh golf cart Crossings yes that's not included in here need to so we will have to add that later all right that's the last thing it's an agenda item that we're so after we approve that agenda item then you have to come back again to do that um well I can I can put it in the midyear adjustment okay right thank you there a motion for this motion to approve and I'll second that comments from the public right see the manag if you call the vote commissioner War yes commission parno yes commissioner pebl yes commissioner vandagriff yes mayor Nelson yes motion pass agend number 16 discussion and possible approval to authorize staff to trade an asset the sewer machine machine 3546 in the amount of 7,500 and purchased a new sewer trailer in the amount of $1 12,884 from jet vac equipment company LLC just wanted to clarify it was not a sewing machine no sir uh this is a 2007 sewer machine it's a trailer that we used to Jet out sewer laterals um it was purchased back in 2007 for just under 47,00 and it needs about $27,000 worth of repairs it is up at the service center in Atlanta um they're going to give us $7500 towards tradein and then we will purchase a new one off of the source well contract um for the $229,200 prices have quite increased since 2007 Jeff Gordon Corvette it it has are there any additional questions for Mr L foot and and mayor if we have to hire a company to do the service it cost us about $800 to $1800 per and it could be one a week it could be zero a week or it could be 15 you just never know so it is quite costly um to hire this service out got it and if I'm hearing you we've had this since 2007 yes sir so almost 20 years that we've been able to have this in service so seem like a good investment in purchase um any additional comments or questions for Mr Lightfoot is there a motion for this motion to approve the sewing machine a second all right motion and second comments from the public all right city manager if you call the vote commissioner perno yes commissioner pebles yes commission work yes commission vff yes mayor Nelson yes motion passed agenda item number 17 discussion of possible approval to authorize the city manager to sign a task order with duberry engineers in the amount of $140,600 to survey and analyze Main Avenue Maryland Avenue from 19th Street to 14th Street for additional storm water outfalls so this project was not put in the original storm waterer master plan from 2019 however we've had a lot of contacts from residents the commission has had uh contacts from residents and the previous commission um we've had a few homes that flooded in this area and we have a lot of standing water in roadways and ditches um this project will study survey and study the area to determine where additional outfalls can be created if they can and then we will bring back funding uh request to uh design this project and then construct it it's probably about a three or four year con or three or four year total to do this whole entire project okay um are there any additional comments or questions from Mr Lightfoot um this is this is that area of uh Northshore where the roads don't have a yes sorry this is from Main Avenue to Maryland Avenue and from 19th Street to 14th Street just Road no curb no right there when that um area was built there were no subdivision regulations so there's no curb no gutter um very little storm water ponds and very few outfalls I'm no expert but I live in around that area and this would that area would greatly benefit from this that area over there is um one of the not the best area for storm water in the city slow can you go and um I think you mentioned this Friday what would be the time frame for actually completing this project if it's deemed that it's something that's needed you or actually adding the the extra outfalls um cuz what happens our citizens they see this and we've approved it today and in January they're expecting it to be done so what is a and they call us so what is a a a tenative time frame nothing to hold you to but just an idea so if this is approved today the surveyors can start this month is what they've told us um I would assume it would take about a month or two to survey all of this in the field and then put together uh some paperwork for us to look at and then it would take a few months for an engineer to look at it and see hydraulically where outfalls could go um so I would assume by midyear budget we should have a preliminary study that we could potentially um present design cost um this is a large project so this may be outside of our continuing service contracts where an RFQ might have to be done for design we don't know until it's completed but it is a this is a several month ordeal and the design and permitting would be about a year and then Construction would be about six to 6 to 9 months got it so estimated the the actual outfalls could be completed anywhere between 24 to 36 months approxim I would say that's a realistic timeline okay all right thank you are there any additional questions comments for Mr Lightfoot thank you sir right is there a motion for this I'd like to make a motion that we that we go ahead and further the the effort over there for for outfall I'll second all right motion and second comments from the public city manager if you call the vote commission prer yes commission pebles yes commissioner VRI yes commissioner Ward yes mayor Nelson yes motion pass um discussion and possible approval to award the bid for the well three Raw water main replacement project the CW Roberts in the amount of $ 36,7 c0 so this project was actually designed last year and then we budgeted $250,000 in this fiscal Year's budget to construct it as you can see we were about $56,000 short so we're transferring some money uh from some other line items in the water budget there's no increase to the budget just moving some money from a different project to award this and this is the replacement of an AC line from the well here at Sheffield park down to the water plant at 12 and77 all right any additional questions about this is that is that that little room over there that everybody's working in yes the the the wellhouse behind somebody over there doing something so yeah right any further questions is there a motion for this motion to approve a second all right motion and second comments from the public all right see the minut if you call the vote commissioner parau yes commission pebles yes commission vandagriff yes commission War yes mayor Nelson yes motion passed discussion and possible approval of application for amendment to development order uh North Bay Haven Charter Academy of development and planning thank you I do have a small presentation for this thank you so this is an application for an amendment to a development order the application is Bay Haven Charter Academy parcel number 11344 d2500 the location is the North Bay Haven Charter Academy Athletic Fields one Buccaneer Drive parcel is approximately 16 acres and it has a future land use map designation of tnd the request is to have a slab under a batting cage the original development order was approved on July the 10th 2018 for athletic fields concession stands restrooms and Fieldhouse amongst other things um we received a request for a batting cage in August of 20123 and we told that the Fieldhouse was not being constructed seeing how um it was a minor deviation we received a letter from Larry Ballinger assuring us that the field house was not going to be constructed and so we went ahead and approved the minor deviation this is a request for a second batting cage of the approved um original impervious surface of 144,145 unbuilt because they didn't do the field Fieldhouse this second batting cage will use 29962 ft of the remaining allowable impervious surface we do have Steven Gillespie who is the athletic director I believe from North Bay Haven here today if you had any specific questions on that this shows the original development order that was approved back in 2018 and up here is where the Fieldhouse was going to go in that area there the fields have all been constructed um and this again shows the Fieldhouse that was not constructed this down here was the batting cage that they constructed last year and this is the proposed batting cage um that they're bringing to us now and we wanted to have um approval from you because we don't know what's going to happen now in the future with remaining impervious that they haven't constructed on thank you any additional questions for Miss Amanda about this I do have a question because you know I mean schools are always expanding you know and so they're not doing the Fieldhouse now but they could still as long as they maintain a kind of a backward Budget on the perious surface Sur like if they designed something else or whatever I don't I don't know if they will or not but my feeling is because they have submitted a an official letter saying they are not going to construct the field house and we are letting them possibly approving an amendment um if and that was 2018 if they then decide in the future that they want to construct a Fieldhouse they'll have to submit a development order for that which will have to come before you and we're going to let them know that or CU I I just don't well they're not they've told us they're not building it so they're not building it I mean it was 2018 we now have 100 100e storm waterer um rules which we didn't have them so just making sure because you know schools get donations and next thing you know that you know we can we can build that building you know what I mean right and I don't want to stop them I definitely don't you know I think do you understand can we can I ask can you ask him if he understands that hold on are there any questions for Mr J oh yeah is this going to help the baseball team are they going to get better are they going to beat the Boseman the the Boseman bucks is it the bay Haven bucks and the Boseman bucks where are you zoned for what's that where are you zoned for bosan if if you're in B I'll say no we will I'm zoned about three blocks from Sheffield Park I'm we're trying to improve the the the current structure that's there it is it does not handle inclement weather right now because it was built over the it's just dirt and grass uh now so any any type of inclement weather it seeps in under the cage so it doesn't meet the purpose for what it was built totally so we'd like to add that slab underneath we've got artificial service donated that will be put on that and you're going to expand your cages too right right or no the the slab will go slightly outside the exist existing structure so we can have uh drill work stations outside of the covered netting good good okay I'm all for it I don't I don't want you I don't want to stop y'all as a m I just wanted to know in the future would you you know I'm I'm of the mindset hey if leave it leave it so you can build a building you know have in in the future if you needed to but we'll right it it would it would go underneath the existing structure so it wouldn't take up any what we're wanting to do with this would not take up any additional space any additional square footage of the athletic complex okay understood well and appreciate it motion Mo motion to approve all right second is there a second for this I'll second all right motion commissioner perno second commissioner pebles is there any discussion from the public city manager if you call the vote commission perno yes commission pbl yes commissioner VRI yes commissioner Ward yes mayor Nelson yes motion pass Buck discussion and possible approval of application for development order 826 Florida Avenue parel numbers 95880 9587 70 thank you mayor this is an application for a development order for the Florida house this is also a qu judicial public hearing do you swear or affirm the testimonial givers the truth and nothing but the truth I do the applicant is Jared noise uh the owner triaa homes LLC also Jared K noise the project engineer T who is here today to answer any questions Tyler Atkinson from Southeastern Consulting Engineers Inc ccel numbers as the mayor stated 0958 A- 000000000000 and 0958 7- 000000000000 the location is 826 Florida Avenue approximately 0.245 acres in size with a future land use map category of commercial the uh the property had originally been well not originally but um over the last few years had been used as offices with Apartments upstairs plus an old Edition had been installed on the back which was in very poor condition when the applicant purchased the property and he removed it the applicant is asking for development order approval to redevelop the existing building to a restaurant and coffee shop and add on 1,773 3 Square ft of uh additional space the um there was a variance granted from the board of adjustments on the city's storm water requirements for this project due to the size of the parcel and that there had already been a building on the property which the applicant removed parking will be on perious pavers and the applicant has applied to the state for a storm water exemption there will also be new Landscaping installed the Planning Commission recommended unanimous approval of this last week when it went before them these are the two Parcels the narrow parcel is going to be used for the parking and the driveway and then the larger parcel is where the existing building is which will be added onto this is the site plan which is in your packets it doesn't show up very well on here there will also be a disabled parking space um and these are the proposed renderings of how the building will look with the Landscaping parking on on the side and then um on the back you can see that um there's going to be some grass Bas and Landscaping um and I'm not sure they might put some tables out there I'm not sure but um the engineer is here today as is the applicant owner if you have any questions and uh Chris lightford would be happy to answer any questions um specific to storm water thank you are there any questions for the applicant the engineer or Mr light fo I just how much how many parking spaces are there going to be um I haven't I'd have to how many like six I don't have the plans right in front of me but there's going to be six does that include the disabled S this is in the CRA so they do not have as much parking requirement as a regular um business uh because there is on street parking and what's what is the surface going to be around the pavers from the from the site drawing there the surface around the pavers it looks like the pavers are the parking spaces yes that's going to be a gravel driveway gravel yes sir yeah uh we require a hard dust free surface for parking but if we're not maintaining a street and it's remaining private to the applicant and we're not maintaining it they can have gravel on their gravel on their driveway um and it means they'll be less impervious and that's why they're using perious pavers for the parking so that the water will drain down through otherwise they wouldn't have been able to do the project and meet our impervious service requirements I just want to say thank you to the developer uh for uh working with us for the impervious area in that as you know storm water is a big deal in this area so thank you very much for that any other additional questions comments and just just from the drawing there's full egress into the alley and onto Florida Avenue correct that's perfect that's great right is there a motion for this I'll motion to approve I'll second motion by commissioner peble second by commissioner perno comments from the public oh I have one more thing I'm sorry I know well there they're submitting for approval on the on the various St the state the state exemption and the state I mean it's a high percentage they'll they'll get it or um we think what's the road block if they don't we we cannot stop a development and I don't want to and that's what I'm saying is are they going to be going to be any challenges I I hate to get my heart all set on something Tyler aison South Eastern Consulting Engineers typically we haven't had any problems from the state in that regard um there are a few rules and regulations they require I believe it's no more than 9,000 square ft of total um development space and I believe it's under 5,000 ft for parking or or drive access and we meet both of their both of those qualifications and you know qualifications they have so we don't foresee any uh outstanding issues on why they would deny the per right that's good news else any comments from the public Mr Walker you like pizza and Wild Root what you like pizza and coffee I didn't understand that do you like pizza and coffee I like them both I'm not a pizza fan okay I am a coffee fan all right yes I look I I have no objection to this whatsoever I've had long discussions with this and I've I've been satisfied the only thing here is the question that you brought up I brought up with the builder or developer and I didn't bring it up with M Richards um the variance was approved by our our people okay and the state has to approve that okay my I'm conflicted with u the statement that this doesn't stop the development order that I don't understand that then why are we doing why do we need the state to approve anything doesn't make any sense that we've approved it we're in charge we know what we're do they're doing right they're doing to benefit this and now we have to wait for State approval on the storm water however you have to apply for that variance with the state what you have to apply for that variance with the state right all right I I can understand oh she's right behind the way it goes right um the board of adjustment variance was on the city's storm water requirements they have to apply for the state for an exemption on the state's requirements okay but it doesn't now in the conversation with Mr lifeo the the time of duration of their approval State can be one week two weeks 3 months three years question goes back to why are we even worried about it if the state is not necessary to stop the development order doesn't make sense I don't want to I'm like the rest of that we don't want to stop this okay maybe you understand yes I do I do understand your concern uh Jared noises tripa homes I'm developing it doesn't have anything it doesn't have any bearing on what we're voting on today yeah so y'all can just talk about it after the meeting okay I can explain all right thank you all right yes sir all right there's a motion on the floor I see any you call the vote commissioner pebles yes commissioner perno yes commissioner VRI yes commissioner Ward yes mayor Nelson yes motion pass all right discussion possible approval to direct the city manager to work with Bay County and obtain an an estimate to do a feasibility study to include the city Lin Haven and the County's wastewater treatment plant expansion commissioner perno thank you mayor uh um this kind of stuff I've been working on in two weeks in between meetings kind of thing but it's been a long time as you know i' I've been I've been a um I've been part of the St Joe Bay St Andrews Bay EST program since the onset um also uh Chris life is on you're on the management Council right Chris life serves on the management Council um we've we we we've gone back and forth about things in over over time and uh I know we're we're we're going we were going forward until the next agenda item on the on the headworks project on our water water sewer treatment plan well we also have a vulnerability study coming that says the sewer treatment plant in the future may not be in the best place where it is um we've had we've had talks with the county uh about the possibility of Us closing our water water our sewer treatment plant and going to the to their North plant up off 388 and uh increasing the capacity of that plant but servicing the whole area um and uh the key to that is we we lose our we lose our sewer system but we gain uh the the retail rights to the area kind of because we'll be the bu we'll be the biller um the the count it'll be a wholesale thing with the county I'm going to let Chris explain it a lot better than than me cuz his when he got up to the mic Friday he made it all sound a lot better than I did but it's it's this is something that's in the process we're we're thinking way down the road and and for our future and and uh I just I just think after you hear him talk about it it's it's it's a thing that we need to really look at so we're talking about uh pausing the current contract the current project with the um with the um water with the water treatment plant and we're talking about moving forward with urging the city manager tasking the city manager to to get this feasibility study done for the rates so we can negotiate with the county on making this go yes and so we have um the city manager and myself and and Bobby we met with the county a couple of months ago and they are open to the idea of performing a rate study for the city to look at becoming a retail customer of the county for sewer treatment and what that would entail is the county is going to have to expand their North Bay Wastewater Plant eventually we are going to have to expand our Wastewater Plant as we are already moving forward with it would make more sense to combine the two Wastewater plants if we can make it financially feasible and have a basically a flu meter on the city's lift station that we would pump our sewer up north to the county for them to treat the county would in turn bill us monthly and we would Bill our customers monthly for the sewer treatment so instead of us having to spend approximately $50 million to expand our Wastewater Plant the county would expand their Wastewater Plant of course how they have their Debt Service or their bond that's that's on the county not not us the rates would of course be passed on to to us on to our customers and this is what the item is for to do a rate study to see where we would be and how how much the rates would be for our customers as well as the county customers and see if it is feasible for us to do we'd be combining the linh Haven linh Haven with County rates for the for the whole service area of that plan correct that is correct we also have we also are have pending consent orders that could be mitigated by doing this correct that is correct we have a pending consent order we we received a draft of it Friday evening we have a meeting with d to go over some things and then we will be getting the official um consent order and I'm sure the city manager will schedule one-on-one meetings or we will do it in a workshop to go over all of that with you but that would be a huge help in resolving the consent order is combining with Bay County if again financially feasible to make happen for our residents right we just got to get the ball rolling on this and just the fact that we have agenda items you know in our scheduled it help helps with the consent order you know and this is a this is a big move for the future of our of our of our area and it's it's a big move for the future in linh Haven I mean if we could provide the retail service for a larger area than linh Haven we're we're we're we're doing we're doing a pretty good thing as far as getting in revenue and and getting it out so I'm I'm I'm U of the I'd like to make the motion that we do exactly this um that we that we direct the city manager to work with Bay County to obtain the estimate to do a feasibility rate it's a rate study right yes sir it's a feasibility rate study so I'll make that motion I'll second there's been a motion and a second um discussion from the public got anything Mr Walker Joe Bashers okay all right city manager you call the vote commissioner perno yes commissioner pebles yes commissioner Vandergriff yes commissioner war on your shoulders Chris mayor Nelson yes yes motion passed discussion and possible approval to direct the city manager to Paul's wastewater treatment plan expansion design mayor if I may just to make sure we get this item so we added this item just so that we can get some direction from the commission we have a current open task order with Mont McDonald and since the previous item was approved we would need a motion from the commission to pause this task order we would keep it open just in case the rate study doesn't work out we would go back to moving forward with our design but we would just need this to be approved to be paused so we can get this done and then move forward and we would be able to give that to d as part part of what our requirement to meet the design of the expansion got it and I guess for the City attorney I think you might have answered this for us on Friday are there any contractual conflicts with us passing this particular agenda item I don't know there's a conflict we do need to put the the pause in writing to put M McDonald on notice okay right any further questions for uh Chris on this I think it's pretty straightforward all right is there a motion for this motion to pause second second all right motion by commissioner perno hadn't had commissioner Vander today so second by commissioner Vander um is there further discussion from the public all right no discussion city manager if you'll call the vote commissioner perno yes commissioner vff yes commissioner War yes Commission PES yes mayor Nelson yes motion passed um Friday we uh asked Mr Baker to update us on the golf cart Crossing request he stated that we'll need to do a engineering uh study you order to present that to the state so that they could possibly um consider our application to uh make those Crossings are there any questions for him at this time just more of a comment thanks for doing this well we hope we'll get them but and and I think the public needs to know that all of us have had requests for this to occur and that's what initiated this definitely been a top requested item for sure yes um and I and I believe probably for maybe over a year now you've been working on yes on this and D doesn't I mean excuse me do does not particularly like them but we're trying to justify it because of the uh supermarkets and all that so people can get to them got it so if I can't go to Publix I can go to wind Dixon huh possibly okay all right okay are there any further questions for Mr Baker there a motion for this a motion to approve second motion by commissioner PE second by commissioner perno uh discussion from the public see man if you call the vote commissioner Peebles yes commissioner perno yes commissioner vff yes commissioner War yes mayor Nelson yes motion passed meeting adjourned Merry Christmas