Good morning, Dr. Bishop. >> We We do have great weather here. Yesterday, I will say it was I was a little Thank you. a little thrown off. It was cloudy and cold, like the 60s. I'm like, um I thought the first day of summer was Sunday.
But here we are. Okay, we are back. Um we're going to pick up where we left off, Dr. Reid, with um 3120.02. Um this is a policy that is dealing with
the um adjunct teacher and um I believe that >> these are are noncertificated people. >> Yes. >> With professional experience.
>> Yes. And I believe >> fill in if you have any staff shortages. >> Yes. And we currently have that policy. Um but I believe the only change to this policy really is about the required
um background checks needed um for the adjunct teacher based on um the new law. Correct. >> Yes. >> Okay. Okay. Um and that is in green
>> um on >> the last page where it says the corporation shall conduct subsequent background checks on adjunct teachers as required. >> We already have the other items. >> Yes. Yes. Yep. So, when we first went
through um this policy um back in 2025, Miss Kelly, we opted not to because at the very first page it says you can select one, both or neither. And we chose neither.
Um so it it covers straight mandatory language. >> Is that AB or C? Um so AB and C stays but um under the the bold you may select one both or neither. We opted to choose neither. So
we didn't choose option one or option two. >> Okay point. >> Mhm. And then the second page just goes into uh the required language. >> Yep. >> Talk about mento background. >> Mhm. >> On point. >> Yep.
So, I didn't see anything else there. Um, unless you two have any questions about um this one. Okay, we'll move to 3120.08. Um, it is um very similar. These policies
mandate that the IHSAA sponsored coaches, whether they're paid or volunteered, um, be properly rostered and accredited prior to the student contact. Um, so on
page two, you'll see um, letter E where it gives that language. >> Um, and that's the ad. >> Yeah. Anything else in here, Dr. Reed, that's pertinent? I think it was pretty
laid out. >> No. >> Yeah, >> that was pretty self-explanatory, Dr. Reed. >> Yes. Yes. >> Um, it does it does cover um, you know, it re um emphasizes our um need to
report if there are any issues or if something comes back in the background check. Um, so >> we already had that. Yes. Correct. >> Yep. Yep. Okay. All right. From there, we'll move to 3121.
This speaks specifically to uh personal background checks, references, and mandatory reporting. >> That is simply a technical correction. >> Yep. >> Verbage. It doesn't change your policy
choices. Yes, >> that was on A, wasn't it? >> Um, so, um, for this policy, for YouTube's reference, our current policy does not include C on the first page. >> C.
>> Mhm. I, J, or K. >> C. >> So, we do not currently include that. >> Okay. And then on page two, we have checked should it be necessary
um to employ an individual in order to um >> maintain. >> Yes. And then the superintendent may uh provide a substitute. We do not have um either option as we
get a choice of either one, both or none and we opted for none. Um however on page three for your reference um we have option two chosen at the very top
where it reads the corporation shall pay the cost associated with conducting the >> um we also have option two down toward middle of the page where it says the corporation shall pay the cost again that's that's squared away and then
towards the bottom we have the board requires an expanded child protection index check. We have that every 5 years. That's checked and currently in our policy. And the box below it in implementing this requirement, the corporation shall obtain the updated
every 5 years. Okay. >> Um the percentage is 20% of staff every every 5 years. >> Okay. >> So just as a point of reference, >> Kelly, you say anything? >> We Okay. >> No, I'm good. Yeah. Ma'am, >> I'm good. >> Yep.
>> Um, on the back page, we do have a the letter A checked arrest or the filing of criminal charges against the employee for mandatory reporting along with B, C, and D. So, we do have A checked. >> Okay. I did have now that he me I was
looking. So we even though we did not specifically check, we still have the option to do >> any of these. That's >> Yep. >> All right. If there's nothing else there, we will move to 3131.
And 3131 is a reduction in force. Um Dr. Reed, this is very much a reflection of updated law. Correct. >> Yes.
>> Um when I was looking through the document, I know that um we so I'll read through this. The policy was updated to reflect three changes in the law. First, discussion with the exclusive representation of the
corporation's teacher prior to a riff is no longer required. Second, the cancellation of a teacher's contract due to a justifile justifiable decrease in the number of teaching positions is determined based on performance.
And lastly, the policy was updated to no longer include references to highly effective, effective, improvement necessary, or ineffective. Um, but when I look at the policy itself,
I only see the word performance in green that has been updated. There's language that's been taken out. Um, >> yes. So, I guess I'm I'm I'm searching
for the language that specifically addresses that discussion with the exclusive res representation of the corporation's teacher corporation's teachers prior to the reduction in force is no longer required.
Am I missing that? At the bottom it says that we're toward the middle >> discussion may be held before we have. >> Ah, there it is. Yeah, you are correct. There's the other green. Yes, it was
before it was shall. Now it's may. >> There it is. >> May. >> Yes. Okay. Got it. Thanks, Dr. Reed. >> That one little word makes all the difference. >> Okay. So, um, so we have
>> It sounds like it's going to be okay. >> Yes, >> it may be in there now. >> Yes, >> it gives us >> it gives me the option >> the superintendent the option. >> Yep. >> So >> now the performance makes sense when we go back to that second one.
>> But then they take So it's not based on effective >> highly effective. >> So then what is the what performance measures are we It doesn't say >> um well I think this is uh somewhat >> different
>> perfect timing because our rubrics are going to be um updated where we're moving away from and so is the state they've moved away from highly effective effective um so this language now corresponds with the state language um
so I would say that one of the things to your point Miss Kelly is um the the to be defined on the basis of performance that that could be the new rubric, right? That that that way you were all using some degree or variance of that
rubric, whether you're elementary, middle, or high, that you could make a determination on performance there without using highly effective effective. Yep. Mr. Kelly, I think we heard that just a
few weeks ago, didn't we? >> We did, but I still have not heard anybody say what >> Yeah, in that area >> the criteria. Yeah. >> All right. Okay. Um 3139
staff discipline. Uh it's been revised to allow for progressive discipline without requiring it. Um it gives the administration additional flexibility in determining determining excuse me discipline and also provide
examples of gross misconduct. So, what you'll see is on page one, examples of gross misconduct that may result in termination include but are not limited to, and you see letters A through K of
what that would be. And it looks like they added letter D which is repeated violations of board policy rules or standards. So um and they added letter K other just or good
cause. Could you give us an example just before I ask that question? Okay, I'm all right with other calls. >> Any other any questions about this update?
It also covers um whether they shall be on paid leave. That's on the last page. Um so there's that piece also covered in the policy itself. >> Supervisors will make that decision.
>> Yes. And our um process is that an administrator would work with um HR and Dr. Young um if needed depending on what the situation is. Law enforcement could
potentially be involved as well. Um so I there are definitely other individuals that help collectively on making those decisions. Okay. All right. >> Okay. Um 3142
is um cancellation of a teaching contract and this gives some new wording for what is what would fall under a probationary
teacher. If you look at letter B, the information there is is in teachers first or second year of full-time teaching in a classroom. So that is an added piece to this.
Anything else um Dr. read regarding this particular policy >> and that was partially changed because of taking out the ratings that okay >> we've always had for the last several
years the ineffective >> okay >> okay Dr. to read those gradings that really shift the policy somewhat. >> Would you agree? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> I I would imagine they would, but uh
>> yes, it it does shift the policy. Um so the probationary teacher, they don't have to receive any kind of rating. Um
and if the superintendent felt as if um they needed to be removed uh for valid reasons. They wouldn't could not fall back on that
um evaluation. >> Yeah. >> They have to prove themsel for two years. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Thank you, doctor. >> So my other question, because we have folks that serve
under a con a teaching contract even though they are not providing instruction. How does this affect those folks? >> Um so I I think they would fall under the same um criteria in that their
performance would be evaluated um in some way. Um it just wouldn't be the same as someone in the classroom. Mhm. >> Because we have folks that are >> Mhm. >> technically admin. >> Yes. >> They're still under
>> You are correct. >> these guidelines. Okay. >> Yep. >> Until we have a different tool to use. >> Yep. >> Any other questions regarding that? >> No, I I think I'm okay with it.
>> Okay. I I think what what she basically said was the old method that was used is done away with now and they would have to prove themselves based on their performance for the last two years. Is that right, Dr. Reed? >> Yes. And and that will be determined by
your corporation. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Just want to be clear. >> Thank you, Dr. Reed. >> Okay. Um 3220 goes to your point. Um uh nope. You're
we're going to get to 0 2. It's probably behind that one. Um for whatever reason, it always does the 02 before the solid number. >> Um no worries. Staff evaluation. This is also updated to reflect um the
evaluation plan is to be clearly um defined and the categories um need to be uh clearly laid out. Um but this too is an update based on um the direction in
which we're going with the removal of highly effective effective. Um if you'll take a look um letter B says that there needs to be clearly defined evaluation categories that allow for meaningful
differentiation among uh certified employees based on their performance. And that will be that's an up the update based on the new rubric that we're going to be moving towards in 2627. Um and
uh I was glad to see a letter H added um because it's new and this is another point of consideration in teacher leadership. Um I think that has wasn't always necessarily it was in the rubric. It's a standalone here and I I definitely appreciate that being a
standalone. >> Dr. vision. Tell us what it looks like to you. >> The rubric itself or teacher leadership? >> Teacher leadership. >> Um, so teacher leadership can be in a wide range of things. Um, it can be in
their in solid instructional practices that they share with their colleagues. It could be overseeing an idea and and fleshing it out as it relates to procedures in the building. Um it could be um also looking at and driving your
data review what that looks like what that isn't. But honestly teacher leadership is also on the other side of it. The um they may have the best rapport with students. Sometimes students that many don't have the best rapport. What what knowledge does he or
she share with colleagues from a leadership standpoint? um they may choose to uh move up the ladder and look from an administrative standpoint, but I would argue that we have buildings full of teacher leaders um that stay in the classroom and retire in the classroom
and we need them because they set the tone for everyone else in the building >> allow them to buy in more. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Um, so on the back side of this, I wanted to let you know that we currently have um
the check box and shall be explained to the board in a public meeting before evaluations are uh conducted. So, I want to make sure the corporation's annual performance evaluation plan shall be in writing and you all have also asked that
it be explained to you um in a public meeting. >> So, prior to the release of the new >> rubric, >> we will have that. >> Yeah. >> All righty. Okay. Um
All righty. So, supplemental payments is 3220.02. Um, this policy was updated for clarity to include how supplemental payments could be made to teachers and to reflect
in the options and the reasons why corporations often use supplemental payments for teachers. Uh the policy clearly identifies that supplemental payment may take the form of a salary increase or a stipend or bonus um and is
in addition to any bar bargaining salary increases. Um one of the um areas that I want to discuss with you two is currently we do not choose option
one. We are in and working with option two. We currently have letter A and B checked down in option two. The question I have for you is what you
would like to do with letter D and letter E. Letter D um says that a teacher who earns a master's degree um and this falls under the the school
board authorizes a superintendent to issue supplemental payment in excess of the salary specified in the school corporation's compensation plan to any teacher at the discretion of the superintendent including but not limited
to the following. So letter D um who earns a master's degree. Letter E uh prevent, minimize or eliminate salary compression. This is where you two um Dr. Reed are
there any um advantages disadvantages to letter D or E. You could, as option two reads, the superintendent could do that um without checking the >> Okay. >> Because it says including but not
limited to. >> Yeah. >> Um I would there have been just a few teachers that have gone um and gotten degrees but not an education,
>> some something else. And but this would put them under the blanket. I don't know if you've ever dealt with that. >> Okay. Yeah. Um well, I'll use myself as an example. U
my doctorate is in not specifically in straight education. Um that's not typical. It's in organizational leadership >> but that is that is related to
education though. >> Yeah. >> Your doctorate is related directly to education. >> Um doesn't have to say educ your program doesn't have to say educational leadership. The >> the organizational leadership is every
bit as important >> so >> in education. So >> I was I was thinking someone getting a law degree. >> And and you brought that up and we actually have had a couple of people do
that. >> Okay. should the corporation increase their salary that you know that's an individual um decision because I would say they'd be more likely to
share the law with people and um they would be more aware. I don't know if your average attorney knows school law very well. Yeah,
>> there are those who specialize in that, but that is your individual choice and I don't know how many you've had that that would include. it may be minimal
and you might want to keep those people. But if they're getting their masters and they have it and they're just waiting to exit, that's another consideration. >> So for clarity again for me, Dr. read if
we were to check letter D um because of the wording at the beginning of it could but does not but does not have to or are we saying we are going to
if we check it >> because plan >> I would Hey, I would say that you could argue both ways and that would create a tension. >> Yes, it would. Yes. Okay. >> With your teachers. >> Yeah. >> Because you don't want them to say,
"Well, the superintendent doesn't like me >> and so I'm not getting that salary increase because I have my masters." >> Understood. >> Okay. And is it just because you got your masters and it's not
>> pertaining to education, >> right? Because my first masters was in management. >> I they didn't count that. >> Yeah. >> But then I also work in a district that does not do a differentiation whether you have in your pay regardless of whether you have
a masters or not. at this time when they brought me in and so they've brought some people in with that but then at times they've not used this. >> Dr. Reed, you did say it was an individual choice, didn't you? >> Right. >> Yes, it is. It is the school board's
choice. Uh I could argue it both ways. I could argue that anybody that gets more education would be good for your students. um they would have more knowledge and knowledge sometimes crosses over.
>> That that was my next my next question. The leverage of crossing it over and then looking at u the the individual as uh where they were before they got the degree and how they were able to to utilize what they had
before they had the degree. And would the new degree be able to uh be utilized in their behavior to cross it over? That makes sense. >> Yes. And they would also um have an
advantage of helping students at the secondary level with different pathways. They would they would provide an example of maybe another pathway that one could take. I I
>> have firsthand knowledge on that. I >> I would think based on the shortage that we have in the in the field of education, Dr. agree that uh with a with a confident superintendent in the in the chair. Uh I think we need to leave that
up to that that superintendent based on the shortage of uh workforce as it relates to u making sure that they can fill those positions and hopefully they can utilize uh what they have brought to
the table thus far and not be uh uh I wouldn't say penalized but be uh what would be a good word that Dr. Bishop not be held back salarywise because of
>> the discipline they took towards their masters. What do you think? >> I would agree with you. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> But I I'm not supposed to influence your decision. >> No, ma'am. We're not We're not >> Maybe either way picking your brain.
>> We're I'm just asking a question based on the atmosphere in which education is in right now. And I'm just >> Yes, we need all the good people we can. >> That's all I'm saying. And and uh uh I like the idea of pathway uh thinking
when it comes to u um if a person just happens to take their masters in a different different uh discipline area. Uh we ought to still consider not uh throwing the baby out with the bath water. >> Absolutely.
>> So am I hearing you two want letter D checked? I'm I'm inclined to >> I'm in like for all the reasons Dr. Moore was saying, but also looking at teacher retention. >> I mean, we've got to >> and if adding to their salary is within
our power >> to retain them. >> And then the idea of the professional piece that we add to our teachers >> will also help that help those individuals. >> Does that make sense, Dr. because we already have programs that encourage them to
>> get their masters. >> So why not >> incentivize that even more? >> Well, I'm inclined to >> doing those things. >> Yes. And I will circle back that this
would potentially, you know, be a supplemental payment. It wouldn't be an addition. Um I think that piece is is also part of remembering that this is a supplemental payment. Yeah. >> Um uh that's >> we may not need it once we've done the
bargaining. Correct. This is in addition to correct. >> Mhm. >> So once if we bargain >> correctly, >> you won't have to get to the >> need. Yes. >> Um Okay. So I'm going to check D. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Okay. >> And this we always it doesn't say shell.
Correct. We have the option. >> Yeah. >> Um Dr. Reed, can you explain what to prevent, minimize or eliminate salary compression means? >> You're at what one now? You're at
>> E. Yes. depending on your uh school compensation plan. Sometimes the people at the very top get stuck
and they don't um especially with the state requiring um some additional firstear teacher pay and this is for all corporations. pipe may not be in the situation where
they're tight for funds, but um this would allow the superintendent to give a bonus supplemental pay to someone at
the high end that their salary has been somewhat stagnant for a few years. And that happens particularly in small and rural schools, but we have to write policies for everybody.
>> Okay. >> And and you never know some a corporation to your north was struggling financially. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So based on that feedback, do you two
want to check E? I I think we ought too. >> Okay. >> I mean, let's just be relevant about it. I think whatever we have to do >> uh in the scenario of teacher, we have to think about retainment. >> I think Miss Kelly, I don't know how you
feel about >> we I feel like same thing in bargaining. We have an opportunity to get it right. >> Yeah. >> And then if we miss the vote, >> this can come back and cover us. If somebody says, "Well, why are you >> right >> doing it that way?" Because we wanted to
make sure these folks were taken care of. >> Yeah. They can't say the policy did not work for them. >> I mean, we have >> Are we okay? >> I think so. >> Okay. >> Okay. All righty. That takes us to 3362.01.
Um and so this policy it reads is um establishing a zero tolerance framework for threats against school administrators and central office staff because we're on the admin side
first. We will get to this um another version of this here in a bit. By formalizing a mandatory reporting chain, the policy removes administrative discretion and ensures that threats, intimidation or battery against employees are reported to law enforcement immediately.
Um so that is the um change here. Okay. >> All right. Okay. Um, that takes us to 3430. >> Yes, ma'am. >> And that's leave of absence.
Um, >> the policy currently provides for the same level leave benefits, excuse me, as those bargaining in the master agreement. However, there may be instances such as the sick leave bank where the benefits are bargained only for members of the unit and the
corporation may decide not to have that benefit for other professional staff. Therefore, this policy is updated to state that the leave benefits will be the same unless the corporation provides written notice of a difference to the impacted employees.
Um this gives the corporation more flexibility in benefit provisions while still ensuring the professional staff are aware of their benefits. Um this policy has been updated to reflect
the ambassador for education leave for to teacher of the year leave. So um the it's I found this interesting Dr. read because um we did not we recently
had for uh 2526 we had Indiana State the Indiana State Teacher of the Year. So this piece of teacher of the year leave didn't exist um cuz we're just now looking at it. But I thought the
timeliness of it was was interesting. But anyway, so the teacher of the year lead is an ad up at the top. Um, our current language is Pike Teacher Classroom Association. That's um in agreement with and you'll see unless the
corporation provides notice of such exclusion in writing. Um, and that's >> we will add that piece to it, right? >> Uh, yes. It's in green automatically. There it goes. And then we fill in uh Dr. Moore, the PIPE teachers classroom association. Yes.
>> Yep. So I think that's it for that one. >> Now we just need to add >> have leave for political office >> political like because there's times I need to be in the district but I don't have leave to come and do things.
>> Yeah. Okay. Um we >> we have uh 4120.08 08 employment of person uh personnel for extracurricular activities and um this once again goes back to the
IHSAA. So I think we had 3120, now we're going to have 4120. Um so this is the same uh policy that or additional information the additional requirements for coaches
uh that they have to be um rostered with the IHSAA. >> So this mirrors the one that we covered earlier >> and we should It mirrors 31
pages of this right here. >> Uh back. >> Yeah. See, we check. >> Oh, um, we have on the first page for individuals from
the community or nearby areas. That's checked. And then on page two, we did not choose either. We don't have it says um we didn't choose any of the
following. And then on page three, we have the corporation shell report. That's checked. Yep. and we check the Indiana code that's
listed um if there is a conviction of an offense makes it easy. >> Yep. Okay, that leaves us with 4150 next and that's disciplinary actions. Um, Dr. Reed, this is a replacement
policy. Um, can you share any insight on why this is replacing the previous one? Um because we've added all those option
or we've added all those um examples. They're not really options. They're >> Yes. >> They specify. >> Okay. Okay. So, it's much more detailed than the previous policy. >> Yes.
>> Okay. Okay. Okay. So it says if the board finds facts that support the use of discipline, the board may impose a penalty which may include but not limited to one or more of the following.
It gives you A through E. And then it goes a step further and hashes out gross misconduct again. And there are the examples that may fall under there. >> Hopefully we don't get to gross misconduct. >> Uh we would hope so.
We really hope not. >> So much more detailed in the document. Dr. Reed, >> yes. >> I I'm I'm appreciative of the examples. I think sometimes when you're trying to wrap your brain around, okay, where does this category fall? um providing this
information I think is um and they add on the last piece of it that nothing in this policy shall supersede an applicable collective bargaining agreement. So I appreciate that line for sure.
>> Yes, it's very self uh explanatory as it relates to grasping it. This is the kind of thing that I hope that when we talk about website stuff, >> does that make sense, Dr. Bishop?
>> When people and families look at website things, they can see some things like this. >> So, they see it and say, "Oh, okay. I can grasp this a lot better than >> what it was last time."
>> Okay. And has this already been added to the handbook. >> No, it is not. Um, it's it has not yet been board approved. >> Okay. >> I would just add that when you have
things detailed in a policy, it's much harder for anybody to argue or >> uh if you were to terminate someone. We've always been able to terminate for willful refusal to follow board policies
or repeated violations or theft, fraud. Um, but if somebody would take the corporation to court, there could be a cost in that. um a
judge would look and say, "No, this is in the board policy and you don't have a case." >> Mhm. >> This is >> that that ex that's Dr. Reed. That is exactly what I'm talking about. >> Uh when we you put where the rubber
meets the road at it's very easy uh to handle situations. Although there is a process at the end of that particular road that's what the judge will say here is what the policy says.
>> Yes, that's very clear. But then we have to make sure those steps A through D were followed and documented properly to get
You don't have to do them one, two, three, four. Um because there are certain things that can you can immediately terminate someone for. Um
or you may you may think that's serious enough to suspend them um and jump from the verbal warning. Um, an example, I had a teacher that
threw a desk in the classroom into the students, just picked it up and threw it. I immediately suspended him because he was not safe at that point. >> Okay,
>> this was the right thing to do. Any additional questions regarding this policy? Okay. Uh 4362.01 mirrors 3362.01. This is the technical correction one
that um they're adding policy num names and numbers. >> No, I don't. >> It's a single page 3162.01. I'm sorry. 4362.01. 01 Dr. Moore >> sometimes
51 jump street. >> You and me both s >> 43 62.01. The good thing is it's a technical correction. So keeping them in.
And it may be like since it's a singleton, it may be in one of one of your others so far. So, we can certainly come back to it. We may find it as we're moving through our our other ones. So, I'll turn it sideways and we'll come back to it.
>> Okay. >> Do you see uh 511? >> That is the one I had. >> Okay. What I have? >> Okay. Here we go. >> We'll come back to it. >> All righty. So, 511 has been updated to include >> 43 60.
>> What was it? >> 4362.01. >> Okay. >> Okay. as it goes with the 33. >> Mhm. >> 62. >> Yep. >> What was it? >> Uh 43 62.01.
>> I set it to the side because it goes with the I pulled it when we were looking at 3362. >> It'll pop up. >> It will. >> Yeah, we'll come back to it. Okay. So, uh, 511,
um, it it is a drafting note to clarify that while a school corporation may deny any student's application pursuant to the reasons included in this policy, a corporation may not deny enrollment solely based on a student disability.
So, um if you um Dr. Reed, from what I could see, it really is just the language. Um so for example on page what would be considered three um they have drawn they
have struck through uh including a student with a disability. So pursuant to law the board may deny a student's application including a student with a disability to transfer to the corporation discontinued
enrollment etc. So is that that strikeout is where the change is related to the policy. Correct? >> Yes. Because that goes with um it makes it compliant with 4123.
>> Yep. Okay. >> The disability discrimination policy. >> Yep. Okay. >> It's a pretty large policy. It is um this policy uh Dr. Moore as a point of reference was a one point shorter
because we did not have out of district enrollment. >> No, we did. When we transitioned to have out of district enrollment, this policy expanded out to cover what the requirements are by law for out of district enrollment and all the language that goes with it.
>> Yes, it did. >> All righty. >> I think we already checked all those. >> We did. >> We're not. I know you did not. Yeah, you did not do >> correct. >> Is this the end of here?
>> Um, it is going to look like it's got >> Yeah, it's got cross reference pages to it. >> Yeah. >> Yep. Yep. Um so the next one that is here is um 5310. We currently um Dr. Reed do not
have um 5310 as a policy. Um it's titled health services. Um, we provide health screenings such as um, well, let me let me correct my language.
We do not provide health screenings. The Marian County um, health department comes in and does vision and hearing. Um, so I surmise that we have not um
approved this policy because someone else does the services. And there's also language in here um that would speak to what would be considered a physical examination which we do not have the resources to do.
Is there anything in this uh policy that you feel we we should reconsider bringing in the policy? >> No, I don't. Okay. I think you're >> you're accurate in what you have chosen. >> Okay. All righty.
>> So, we are not >> Yeah. >> No. And so, the same thing a discussion with 5462. Um we had this discussion regarding this particular policy back in 25. Um we
opted not to um bring in this policy because much of what is in the policy is currently ongoing at the high school. Um our discussion back then was do we really need to have something in writing
with practices that we do for the betterment of students uh at the high school right now? um they have processes in place for example for retaking uh for students who may receive an F um in a
class and retaking that class and what uh things are done to update their transcript so that it doesn't negatively affect them. So there are um current procedures in place at the high school that we have not opted to bring in this
policy. Okay, >> that's fine. >> All righty. Um, okay. 5540 is this is a revision and this policy
was updated to provide a drafting note that provides a definition of what federal agents may include and further refineses the explanation bless you >> of what constitutes a valid judicial warrant.
Um, and so I see the language, the drafting note that says federal agents may include Immigration and Custom Enforcement, Homeland Security Investigations, Customs and Border Protection, and the Federal Bureau of
Investigations. So that language is going to be added into this policy. >> Dr. Reed, how do you feel about this? >> Wait, let me let me let me let me let me retract that. Let me retract that.
>> Influence you either way because um I do not believe that law enforcement needs to come into the school building. um there are opportunities for them to
talk with students unless it's an emergency, unless it is something that pertains to school. Um I'm not for that, but that's just my opinion. It's not not neas. We have no
opinion. >> So I will say um Dr. Reed that the definition is hashed out. I I get it and I know why it's being uh written in this way. On the last page, which is page four, um there is additional language
that has been added by Niola that um regarding the definition or possession of a valid judicial warrant. Um right, >> it's very clear that and of course we wouldn't that we would not interfere
with the execution of the warrant. Um But there is however an additional line at the end of that number four that states however enforcement should be limited to the specific and narrow confines of the warrant. Any attempts to
extend the execution of the warrant past the administrator's understanding of its limits should be noted in writing um prior to the act itself. So, I think that the added language helps
to some degree if if an administrator feels like there there could be going in a different direction in my opinion. >> Right. And there is a difference between a valid judicial warrant and
um someone from ICE coming in. >> Mhm. >> They normally do not have a valid judicial warrant. that have to come from a judge. >> Yep. Um I didn't see anything here um Dr.
Reed that was new other than the extended definitions and the added language to number four um to this particular policy. >> Dr. Bishop, are you comfortable with number four? I mean, are you comfortable with the the policy now?
Um my per my professional opinion is the definitions are I think they're for a reason um based on where we are >> in our society
>> in our society but I am I I am um there's some solace to the the number four and knowing that an administrator who would work very closely with our law enforcement should this ever happen in our building
to make sure that whatever that judicial warrant and whoever is involved that is all that is pertains to um and so I think we've had conversations many conversations with um our safety
team administrators law enforcement on what that could potentially look like and always relying on our chief of police um to help us navigate any potential situations that um could arise based on a valid judicial warrant.
>> Question. >> Yes. >> Will our um after we um pass this particular new policy >> Mhm. >> on the changes of the revision of the policy, will Chief Casper and his law enforcement staff be a breast on this?
>> Yes. So our my practice is that once policies are passed, so for example, we've got a set that are going on Thursday, right? So then what happens out of our off my office is that we then go through each one and say, "Okay, this
department, this department, this department definitely need this policy." We forward it to them. So they hear directly from us. We don't leave it up to circum circumstance to say, "Okay, policies have updated. Good luck." We send those policies directly to those
individuals so that they have now the responsibility of hashing out that information with their new folks. In this particular policy, we'll do the same, but there's an added component because this falls under, in my opinion, the safety piece of the district. The
central office has a safety committee. Um, so we'll bring this whenever it's passed, we'll bring it to our monthly safety meeting so we can hash through any processes and then make sure that Chief Casper has all of his people involved and then this
becomes a messaging update for all of our safety specialists in all of our schools. >> Okay. So we're bas you're basically telling us that it'll go out then you'll come back and and go over after he goes over with his
people he'll let you know that this policy has been um transmitted to all of our law enforcement officers >> and we are can rest assure that they understand how to you know move this policy through the through the district. >> Yep.
>> That's what I needed to know. >> All righty. Uh, I have no problem with it now. >> Okay. Good. Miss Kelly, >> in my estimation, I have to agree with with Dr. Dr. Reed on this, and that is
about how law enforcement and school systems work. I think when when law enforcement hits our school system, our district, our officers are in charge of that law of of our jurisdiction. Mhm. >> And as they are in charge of our jurisdiction, they must work under that
jurisdiction to bring into fruition what they're there to do, >> you know, unless you know it's more intense than what you think it should be. >> Yes. There there have been times where um because of the nature of and of
certain situations, I mean, I I won't speak for Chief Casper, but I I've had conversations with him where there have been um sometimes frustrations because sometimes um law enforcement agencies don't necessarily talk to each other. Um, and
I think he's always done the best that he could to make sure everyone understands if there is something within the district, you should be working with me as the chief of police of Pike Township. And so I think that's always a a work in progress. Um, and he has found
himself unfortunately in scenarios, not a lot, but times where that hasn't always necessarily been the case. and they have found out the hard way that things would go a little bit smoother if you didn't try to do this on your own and you actually worked with our current
chief of police. So >> yeah, >> I have a question and this may be getting into too much into what admin is doing, but I guess who is responsible then for
determining whether that warrant is valid? Chief Casper is >> so before students are released, pulled from class, any of that
Chief Casper is to be on the scene before any of that is done. >> You are correct. Our direction to our administrators is you're you have an immediate call to Chief Casper so that he can help navigate what is happening in your building.
for our middle schools. We currently have an officer in the building, but it's not to minimize them their presence, but we feel like Chief Casper has been in the business has been in the profession for 30 years. He is very aware of all the things that go along
with that. Um, so our directive has always been to contact him >> and everyone knows that's the protocol. I'm okay with it. >> All righty. >> We understand. We just hope other law enforcement agencies understand.
>> Yeah. >> Okay. Um that takes us to policy 5600. Um 5600. It has been revised to eliminate the reference to Indiana code uh 2026532
and um other any options related to the statute which was repealed by uh house enrolled act 1002. Uh changes also were made to avoid gender references consistent with uh
Neila's other policies. So, um I think you'll see um on page two there is a mark out of the superintendent show request that's been removed.
Um, and for example, letter B towards the bottom, instead of using his, her, they're moving towards there. >> Mhm. >> Yep.
>> That we have all the options checked. >> Yes, ma'am. >> And then we have Yep. Okay. Um, policy 5840 is actually a rescended policy, so it's actually going to come off the books.
>> Gone. >> Yes. Um and >> it's a duplication of the discipline statutes >> and um it tends to overlabel students.
The misconduct is typically addressed under the 5600. So it's it's just redundant. >> Okay. Okay, we have um another policy that we currently do not have. Um it's a new
one. Um and it's titled acceptance of payment by credit card. Um question for both of you >> is if you would like to bring in this
policy. Um as we it is a new policy. The reasoning for this new policy, Dr. Reed, is it simply um giving the district the
ability to use a credit cards but also the layer of being responsible for protecting the data? >> Yes. And um I it helps with your audit to have this
policy. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Because they will ask you for the procedures and >> Mhm. Okay. >> When you do have your financial audit. >> Okay. >> They they increase they increase things
as you well know all the time. >> Yes. >> So um Miss Kelly and Dr. more what I can do is speak with the business office to get their feedback. For example, it asks um for uh not to if do we want what
amounts would we want to consider if we check um that do not exceed enter a certain amount or um the board authorizes who would that be the treasurer, the business office, CFO um and get some feedback from them on
those two areas. Um I is there something that we should consider regarding the use of Visa, Mastercard, Discover, American Express? Should all of those be checked? Um I can certainly talk with them and try to get additional information. >> And what area would they be used in?
>> This looks like that we um and we currently take credit credit card payments. So I think to Dr. Reed's point, this helps from a procedural audit standpoint and being that we would have a policy to give direction to the
business office uh for use of credit cards. We're currently not >> they have to provide the administrative guidelines. >> The state board of accounts will request that.
Um, I view this policy a lot like the time and effort policy that we had to take to the board. Very similar. It was a federal requirement that we have a policy to guide the time
and effort log. I think this very much mirrors that that need. Um, but I can certainly ask him for feedback and bring it back. But it gives another layer of accountability for >> Yeah. >> where those payments go and who has access to them and all of that.
>> Yes. >> Okay. >> And we will find out who will have >> access to their car. >> Yep. And I um >> go right ahead. >> Go ahead. Um, I don't know if you limit
the brand, but some some credit cards have a higher processing fee than others. >> Y >> and I don't know your process either. You pass that along to >> your um the person using the credit card
or does the corporation pay that? >> Yep. Okay. All righty. So, I'll work with them and get some more information for you all. American Express is on here. See? >> Yes. >> That's a quick turn around. >> Okay. Okay. So, I'm going to turn this
one sideways because that's a to-do for me. Um, okay. So, the next one would be 6152. And this has this pol policy has been revised to provide additional guidance regarding imposing a limit on amounts to
be written off as uncollectible fees and charges depending on the length of time the debt has been outstanding and the ability of the debtor to pay and to account for the repeal of House
Act 1001. um and the repeal of House Act 1002. So you'll see on the first page we have green writing that says, "Additionally, the board may assess and collect a
reasonable fee for supplies and materials that are not curricular materials and that supplement the instruction in a particular course. um previous policy um did not have the ability to do that.
Um so that is the added piece of that and this would include or if I'm wrong like the the cosmetology kits or is that considered
um >> instruction. >> Yes. I think there has long been a discussion on um the cosmetology kits and >> like the kits and then like the tools for those that are in the trades, >> right? >> Trades. Yes. >> So
>> I know we I believe last year we had some discussion about is that part of that >> the class itself, right? Yeah. Um I I think that depending on the discussion if you're
you're in the the course the barber or cosmetology course and you don't have a kit I don't know that you could move forward in doing the work. So we fell back on it's part of >> so we did provide that.
>> I can't say to se to standard but I can I'm almost positive we have but I will circle back to you Miss Kelly. >> Okay. cuz that >> I guess those types of or even in the trying to think of other like gym
uniforms those I think we talked about that as well one of the policies. >> Yes in gym uniforms we no longer provide um and we no longer charge we allow them to come in um >> so they just have to wear a >> appropriate >> correct
>> not a specific uniform. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yep. I think that's I do remember that conversation and we said we're just going to do away with the uniform >> for that. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> Cuz some of these things circle back.
But you said you're going to >> I will check on the cosmetology kit. Cosmetology kits for you >> or even the pathway classes in general. what >> tools >> materials outside of >> or are we saying you need those things
so therefore they are instruct included in that because you can't like you said if I if I'm in the carpentry class I don't have a hammer >> what you do me >> yep um this particular policy on the back side I actually have a note um to
check with the business office to provide um more information for you to regarding um what should be included in this because it says that the it generally the state board of accounts requires that there be a board policy in place in order to
write off fees. Um I want to make sure they are able to take a look at that since there was green because it looks like it ranges from 2 to 500. Sometimes they have their thoughts behind what that could look like. So with your permission I'd like to get
>> up to 200. >> Yep. So, and sometimes um that may be the re recommendation, but in the business world they're like that may be the recommendation, but we really want you to stay here. >> Right. Because this is reasonably what
we can correct. >> We can naturally get Yeah. >> So, with your permission, I'm going to turn this sideways to get more information and bring it back to you. Yes. >> Yeah. Um, same here.
um questions for the business office because this policy deals with uh procurement for federal grants and funds. And when you get to um page two,
the exceed amounts have risen. So not to exceed and they have in green 15,000 where currently it's 10. On page three, it says not to exceed 350,000, but currently it's 250,000.
Um, I just want them to take a look at this to see if there isn't anything that we need additional information on before uh writing the amount in these three areas. If you two are okay with that, >> I think we ought to be accurate.
>> Okay. Okay. >> Nothing wrong with being accurate when it comes to Thank you. Okay. Um so
7420 is hygienic management. And um based on feedback, this policy has been updated to replace the terms, some of the terms. Um, it sounds a little bit more um
I don't know if it goes from a little bit less um with some of the words that are being uh added in, but it it does shorten uh one of them and then adds uh
other bodily fluids to the uh the disposal and handling of um bodily fluids. It's for the protection of staff and students um if something happens if and there needs to be a
cleanup. So there's just an extension of the definition. >> This just this is um why can't I think of the name of the training? >> The training we've been uh watching since we started in education. >> Um and I can't remember the name of it.
See, we're going to make reference to it and now we can't remember uh the name of it. The um >> Bloodborne Path. >> There it is. Dr. Bloodborne Pathogens. So, we're just that's going to continue. That's all we're saying. >> Yeah. >> Annual
Bloodborne Pathogens training because I'm like every year I have I know September's coming around. I have to watch it every Sep. >> Yeah. So, yeah. I think we're all right here. >> Yep.
Um, we're rescending policy 7541. Um, because the this information has been included in what what will get to policy 8300. All right. Um 8120 is volunteers.
And so this policy has been revised to remove a list of specific convictions that the school corporation is required to report to the IHSAA and identify the specific Indiana code provisions that
require the corporation to make a report to the IHSAA. Um, so I think it has been updated to include that and you'll see the two green letter A
>> B >> and B. Yes. And of course they're very specific. It used to say report to the association. Now it's very specific to say the IHSAA when you're dealing with a volunteer coach. So, are these other areas that were
taken out included somewhere? They're included somewhere else. >> Yes. >> Yep. So, um there so when you go to for example has committed misconduct
described in when you go to Indiana code 2026 uh 57 it's going to give you a long list of what those are. >> Okay. And the same thing for >> Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Um and then in green you'll see the coach training um that are required um >> yes >> like concussion protocol um equipment the heat um >> emergency
>> yes so there are specific requirements that that need to be done um And all of that is new to this particular um policy >> cuz for paid coaches it's already been updated.
>> Correct. Okie dokie. Um okay. So Dr. read. We currently do not have well actually we do we have policy 8300 um
but I have set aside uh questions regarding the scope of of continuity. Um there are dollar amounts here.
um and time frames here that I think let me let me say not dollar amount time frames that need to be addressed. So for example, the primary objective um of the continuity of organizational
operation plan is to restore the corporation's critical operations business functions and the learning environment as quickly as possible after a crisis or emergency disaster or threat event has occurred.
Here is where um some of the possible checks come in. The the plan we could we could check the plan shall include strategies aimed at resuming instructional and crucial business functions within
and what should that be? Um it looks like it says select the time period in which to restart corporation essential operations. For example, two school days, five business days, 48 hours. Those are all example time frames. If we
had an emergency or a disaster, what would be the time frame that the board would want um that we would be up and running? >> It it would depend on what the disaster
is. Would you, Dr. Reed, would you agree with that? I would agree with that because you can have a two-day crisis or a one-day crisis if you had um an active shooter in your building. >> Yeah.
>> Um but a tornado that tears down the building is going to take you more time. >> And this the key word here is aimed at resuming instruction. >> Yeah. So it doesn't lock you into oh we
have to do this within 5 days or we have to do this within 48 hours but what do we what would be our best case scenario >> if I'm reading >> and you could >> oh sorry go ahead
>> go ahead if I'm reading this correctly though we don't have to choose the internal options we could leave it as the primary objective of the plan is to
restore the corporation's critical operational business functions and the learning environment as quickly as possible after the crisis, emergency, disaster or threat event occurs period and leave it at that.
>> Absolutely you can and then you don't have anybody saying you didn't open in 5 days. >> Yeah. Okay, Miss Kelly, >> you don't you don't they don't tie our hands, >> right? >> Right. >> Okay. All righty. We will leave it there
or not. >> Okay. Then um because again like to Dr. Moore's point, depending on what the crisis is and it
may take longer or shorter time. You can tear a roof off, but you don't know what the roof has done to the the power of the building. >> And then how quickly can we get the materials and >> you don't know what what what the internal situation will be >> or if it's a computer issue,
>> how long is it going to take to deal with >> getting it back up and running? >> Okay. Um on the second page there is the superintendent shall provide that all relevant staff receive annual or periodic training on their roles in the
plan. Um generally we have chosen the word periodic. Um but you two tell me um how you would like to proceed here. periodic meaning in this in this instance
um as needed. >> So does that that gives us the flexibility? So if we want it annually, it can still be annually, but >> we're not tied to >> to >> annually. Or if it's needed more than annual
depending on the situation, >> it can I think >> you think periodically >> periodically and then it can be whenever. >> Okay. >> All righty. I think that's all I see here. I think we're okay with that since we
understand it. >> Okay. All righty. Um 8305 is information security. Um 8305 is a safeguard for the school
corporation's digital and physical assets providing for the confidentiality, integrity, and availability of sensitive data belonging to student, staff, and vendors. This policy is revised to strengthen the cyber cyber security um posture and
formalizing incident response protocols um in including things like updated terminology uh identification of required compliance regarding confidentiality certifications mandatory incident responses
um and as well as training and annual risk assessment data points. So um on the first page you'll see that added language. So um that's the added component in green here. So data
information collected by the corporation shall be classified as confidential, controlled or published. The superintendent shall define confidential, controlled and published in administrative guidelines and provide example of uh data information in each
classification. So um we'll need to uh make sure that our administrators have that information based on um what's been added to this policy.
And this will also be a policy that will go to um our IT department um as they work with our cyber security pieces. Um, so he's he he and his department are
definitely going to need to be um very familiar with this policy. Um, so if I can get you to take a look at the back of page two, there is a box at the bottom that reads,
"It is the policy of the board if the corporation is experiencing a ransomware incident not to pay or otherwise comply with a ransom demand unless the board formally adopts a resolution to approve
such a payment. or compliance with the ransom demand. If that occurs, the resolution will specifically state why the payment or compliance with the ransom demand is in the corporation's best interest. Um, so that is new. We'll need to make a
decision on how you as a board would like to proceed in that regard. >> I think it handles it. >> Same with that. You don't have to include it in your policy, but you do have to do that.
>> Yeah, >> I think it needs to be included. >> If we have to do it, it has to be included. >> So, this would be um if we had uh some ransomware or ransom or we got hacked
and they're asking for $1, whatever that may win. This would mean that the board would need to pass the resolution if you all go we were actually going to pay the $1, that you would do the resolution and and provide specifically why we're
making payment or complying with the ransom. >> Okay. All right. So, I will you all right with that? >> That's fine because we'd have case by case situation. >> Yep. >> Okay. It protects us. Is that right, Dr.
Reed? Yes, >> we experienced that um early earlier in the summer um right at the end of the university's term
and um universities across the nation were shut down by hackers. our campus was hacked and we were trying to get grades in and people were trying to prepare for the
summer classes and it was um it was very disruptive. I don't know what the resolution was that was not released but >> yeah
it's we felt some of some of the ramifications of that um Dr. Reed because they canvas ended up and I I I don't I completely understand it. They ended up pulling back all of their uh programming until they figured out what
had occurred, which in essence affected us even though we weren't directly involved in the hack and ransom. So yeah, it made for interesting times for sure. >> All righty. Um so 8,400
is um >> not going to change. Yes, it is >> 8400 covers it. It has revised the policy has been revised to include the term building where the school corporation is required to develop,
implement, improve and coordinate a school safety plan not just for the corporation but for each building. Um and so >> number eight is gone. >> Uh yes, it is. >> It's removed and added building.
>> Mhm. Yep. >> And we currently already do that anyway. >> Yes. So, all of our um all of our buildings have a school safety specialist, a school safety plan, and they have their own school safety meetings monthly.
So, >> has been added. Um, >> okay. So, you're looking at >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Okay.
>> And then we did not take the option. >> No. and we don't have school resource officers. And then >> um Okay.
Oh, you saw letter D. Yep. That's the So instead of resort it would be the our police offic. >> Yeah. >> Uh it looks like 8455. This too is very similar. It's the IHSAA.
Um, sponsored coaches, whether paid or volunteer, be properly rostered. That's that same policy. It's hitting all areas. Um, and so this covers that same information, the uh training and the
IHSAA reporting for um 8455. 8462 is u revised to reflect the revision and the repeal of of one of of house
enrolled act 1002. So on the back page of this you will see um in addition to the training required for the initial license under the employee who is likely to have direct ongoing contact with the children within the
scope. You'll see um what the um requirement is for the licensing permit or renewal. Okay, there's one. >> Um, and we have and the provided during
the corporation employees contract day. >> That's checked. >> There's also a correction on the word as there's an extra s. >> Oh, where is that, Miss Kelly? >> In the missed that, Miss Kelly. >> Indiana Department of Education. >> Oh, you're right. There it is.
>> What? >> There's an extra S. yours or mine, Miss Kelly. >> So, I'll we'll make that correction when we send it in. Notice that it needs to >> just happened to me. >> You did. You caught that. Yes, you did.
>> Did you see that, doctor? >> Production. Mark that out. Production. >> There you go. Yeah. >> Okay. Um 8510. Um, >> there's nothing to check on this other one. We're good.
>> Yes, you are correct. Um, >> 8510 is wellness. Um, there is a check ad that we're complying with the USDA. Um, and everything else
remains the same. >> Nothing shift. >> Mm. >> Had something taken out though. Um, yes. And the non-discrimination portion on the back side ads and anti-harassment. >> You didn't run across that other one. I
didn't run across. >> Um, oh 4362.01. >> Yeah, that bothers me. >> And everything else 42. What now? 4362.01.
>> It's one It's one It's only a one pager, so it's probably tough. >> So bad now. >> It's It's stuck to something. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, I'm going to take you back to and I know you're still looking, Dr. Moore. I'm going to take you back to
policy 1220. That policy was a discussion. You all wanted to take a look at the language of the anti-harassment. >> Did you give that to us? >> Yes, I did. >> Um, >> this one here, right?
>> I believe so. This is not new. This was in our original packet. This was the discussion that you we had regarding the employment of the superintendent and uh that yes I provided that to you
because I believe you all were looking for language related to retaliation. >> This is it. >> Yes. And I tagged it for you with this sticky note so that you could read the retaliation language.
>> Yes. And then >> did Dr. Reed get this? >> Uh, no. She has access to all policies. Uh, Dr. Reed, we're specifically looking at um policy 1662,
our anti-harassment policy. >> Okay. >> Do you have retaliation yet, Dr. E? I'm going to have to log into you. I I just have copied all of your policies that I prepared for you and that's what
I've been looking at this >> this policy. I'll have to try to log into board docs. You did get the message that we're moving away from. >> Yes. >> Correct. >> Yes. which will make everybody happy.
>> Um, Miss Miss Melissa and I have signed up for training so that we can get all the knowledge that we can and then get everyone else on board for what that will look like. Um, we're excited for what this is going to bring from a userfriendly standpoint. >> Okay.
>> Yes, it's going to be very similar to Word. >> Okay. Perfect. >> So, instead of Word docs, we will have something new. It it is a update provided by Nola that we're okay. Um we'll still have all access to policies.
I think it's just going to be it's going to look different and hopefully be a little bit easier. >> Okay. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Amen. >> Um so Dr. to read the conversation. I believe
when we first met, Miss Kelly um wanted to I think potentially Dr. Dr. more. I'm not going to correct me if I'm wrong. wanted to potentially check in policy
1220 any relationship that interferes with the corporation's culture of teamwork, the harmonious work environment or the productivity employees will the subject excuse me goodness or the product
productivity of employees will be subject to discipline up to and including termination that then expanded into do we have any language that would include protection
of retal of possible retaliation and so I pulled um the policy that covers retaliation uh for Dr. Moore and Miss Kelly uh with the hopes that that gives them additional information on to help them
make a decision on whether they want to actually add this box or not to the policy. >> Correct. >> Right. >> Okay. >> Dr. Reed, are you reading it? Are you do you have it committed to memory as you gave Dr.
>> I I remember that policy. >> Yes. >> As you gave uh Dr. U Bishop a compliment on how good she is. I'm ready to compliment on how good you are. >> So tell us tell us >> tell us what you think about retaliation. >> I would agree with Dr. Bishop that that
the retaliation policy would would cover any retaliation because it specifically states that. >> Okay. What is your interpretation uh explaining it to Elena? I'm a layman. So, explain explain it to
me uh from your lens. >> So, here's a person that's might might say, "I I feel I'm being retaliated against." >> Right? >> So, explain. >> I would share the policy and I I would ask first I would listen and ask for
information. That's um the most important thing. I would write down everything the person said. I I always scripted complaints and um I would I would say that I would take it
under advisement if it's superintendent retaliation. Uh that would unless your board would be um
unless you would select it for hearings and I can't remember if you do or not. Most boards do not want things to go past the superintendent. um that person would have
um the right to file a tort against the school corporation, but I would not I would not give them any legal advice. But if it's a principal retaliating,
the superintendent should hear and make a determination if that was true or not. And there's only a few instances in most districts where,
God forbid, something happened where those that report directly to the superintendent, I'm thinking, what recourse then do those folks like there's a handful of folks
then what do they what what are their options. >> Their options are to pursue it legally unless if the board has selected in other policies that they will hear hearings. Um then
they would take it to the board for the board's decision. If not and the board says the superintendent's decision is final, then they would have the legal recourse.
I would be interested in seeing I would be interested in seeing in that instance have we selected who would hear those things that maybe in this time >> it would be
>> there. and we've selected what we selected. >> Um I want to say that keep going in your pages, Miss Kelly. Um keep going. >> So So Dr. You're basically saying that
it is it would be feasible to put this piece in in in policy. >> Yes. You may add things to the policy, >> Dr. Bishop. Sir >> um I I think based on the this
particular policy there is a complaint procedure um >> I saw that >> that that you that we would follow through. Um, I think policy
uh 1220 is separate in what I think you may want to or possibly discussing of wanting to do with the anti-harassment policy. So,
if we could just for my clarity address policy 1220 >> first >> first, >> right? And then we could potentially hash out what potential changes you may want to make to the complaint procedure
and our anti-harassment if that if that sounds okay. >> This covers us. >> So if we don't check that, we're still covered. That was my concern >> with asking for this to make sure >> I don't want to duplicate things, but I
also want to make sure we have >> done our due diligence. >> Mhm. >> To protect any employee. >> So the top all the way down. >> This so basically the the box that's up for discussion is any relationship that
interferes with the corporation's culture of teamwork. the harmonious work excuse me a harmonious work environment or the productivity of employees will be subject to discipline up to and including uh termination. So the
question is based on that we have not had that checked do you want to add that to the this particular policy 1220 >> I think it should be added don't you miss Kelly >> it is or a cross reference to that it's
found if we don't check it a cross reference to that it's here >> but I'm not for clarity I don't know that you're going to find this language in the anti-harassment. >> So,
okay, which is why we Yes. So, let's check it. >> And I think that was we wanted to get the clarity on what was language in here so we could know >> with that cover. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, um two things to do here.
>> To do that. >> Yes. Two things to do here. Um, Dr. Reed, while we still have you on, um, we got a second packet cuz, you know, it's the gift that keeps on giving. >> There you go. >> Yes.
>> Um, but it's not many. Um, and so if we can go through those, then I think we'll make it through all of the policies and then we can circle back to that anti-harassment one if that's okay with
you, Miss Kelly. And >> Dr. Moore, >> my anti-arrest. >> Okay, >> that's that small. >> Um, yeah. So, the the second little folder that I gave you, um, >> did not get to state. Yeah.
>> Yes. Yes. So, yep. This is um >> So, we'll have um >> Did I miss something in there? >> No. Well, >> it is >> your Yes, that's your your your cheat sheet. We call it a cheat sheet, Dr.
Moore. Um so, we've got several here. Yeah. And there's one I was that your No, it's not. Okay. Okay. So, the first one is that one right there. So, uh, 32, >> that's my cheat sheet. Come on. >> Yes. 3220
is the first one, right? >> Um, and it covers, um, the teacher appreciation. Um, the policy has been revised to reflect House Bill 1266 to clarify that the
teacher appreciation grant may be used to pay the federal insurance contributions or the FICA >> and Indiana State Teachers Retirement Fund costs associated with distributing this stipen. That's new. Um,
so I think that's the only added piece. um to this that language did not exist prior to um and I think you'll see that in green on the last page. So
>> yeah. >> So now they're not only saying how we determine who gets that, but they've added that we can use those funds in addition to
>> to make sure that we cover the FICA and the retire the retirement fund >> and it still is only limited to 20%. >> That part has has not changed. You are correct. There's nothing that's changed about that. >> Each corporation can only
submit 20%, no more than 20% of their teachers. >> Mhm. >> So, we're back to these designation categories again for who gets what level of stipen.
>> You are correct. And I uh I will remind you that this year we did not take it because >> we did not >> we felt like the designations there was not a lot of clarity. Um we didn't want to get into I mean 20% is not a lot.
>> Um and so um we did not move this past year. That's not to say we're not moving next year, but as a point of reference, we felt like there was a lot of information that was we weren't ready to say and we worked closely with PCTA. Um
we asked for their feedback on how they wanted us to proceed and they asked us their members and they asked us not to participate. I >> yeah, >> this clarity this year coming. Um well I think that we will continue to work with
PCTA on how how to best address the TAG grant um because they have made it very >> cut and dry. >> Yes. Yes. But it's not so cut and dry um Dr. more because what may be considered
as um a recognition designation for one who maybe teaches math or reading. Um do how do you view that re that designation for someone for example who teaches physical education? I think
that there are lots of dynamics that need to be hashed out. Um >> because they let they let you include test scores, they let you include student achievement data. >> Yes. >> Whereas physical like she was saying a physical
education or CT well depending on what they designate as the particular levels what can be used to >> as a benchmark for that. >> Yeah. because you could say well this
many students passed I learn or I read but then the PE teacher may not have had >> well I thank you all for not causing discrepancy among teachers in the district not doing that so that's great yeah >> I think >> and other districts it did have
to where it was to the point where some teachers did not even attempt to receive it because of the process they had to go through to get it. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Is there anything we're missing here, Dr. Reid,
with um 3220.01? >> I don't believe so. I think you have everything covered. >> Yeah. Okay. >> I just got finished with a week long training on AI.
>> Mhm. uh from 8 in the morning till 4 in the afternoon. >> Oh, that's the next one. >> Yeah. Okay. All righty. So, we'll move from 3220.01 to >> Are we holding on this or >> um
>> No, no, no. I think we ought to stay under the jurisdiction of what how they move. >> Okay. >> I don't think they held it back this year or last year. I think uh the jurisdiction of of the decision should rest with them
>> based on the policy >> speak to them again. >> I we we definitely will. I mean because it it's going to impact as as long as it continues to impact teachers. We're definitely always going to reach out and work with PC >> and they're involved in the new rubric process.
>> There was an entire committee that worked for months on trying to get that through. So, okay. So the next policies to Dr. Reed's point um all are in some way, shape or form uh revised based on
the use of AI. Um but for a fiscal planning standpoint uh 6210 which is what you should see next, right? Yes. >> Um the green part down at the bottom in speaking with um Dr. young about this.
Um there are times where we use general terms to avoid having to go back to the policy um to correct it. So in the past we've used superintendent or designate. >> Um so that that gives the superintendent
the leeway to say okay I'm going to make Dr. >> Yes. Yes. So, if you two are okay, we'll move forward with using the superintendent um uh and designate
and or designate to that line. >> No problem. >> Okay, >> it makes sense. >> All righty. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, 75403 75404 75409
and um I'm going to stop there. These are all policies that have been modified to provide appropriate guard rails for AI and the use by the corporation employees and students. Um several of these uh policies address provisions in
House Bill 1408. >> Um and then policy 7544 is the use of social media, but I want to speak to you separately about that one. So for student technology and uh 7540.03
I believe if you turn the page here expectations for uh reasonable use. Mhm. Um >> there's nothing up here we need to check or do anything. >> No no more so uh take a look at the
green on page what is three and four >> lower bottom. Yes. Yes. >> Students must disclose the use of extent of AI assistance any submitted work as required by the
teacher. Can we take out as required by teacher and we say we're submitting because to me if you don't just because a teacher didn't ask for it and you used AI
that's still that needs to be citing your sources needs to be a practice anyway. If can we strike the as required by teacher and just make it AI assistance submitted
on any work period. >> Um, Dr. Reer, are we able to manipulate the green? >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh, Dr. Moore, >> could you repeat that, M? >> So, like it says, students must disclose
the use and the extent of AI assistance on any submitted work as required by their teacher. I would like to strike as required by their teacher and just leave it as any submitted work. Period.
>> Teacher's giving them permission to use AI. >> No, I'm saying but you got to submit that you used it and how you used I mean you're documenting and citing where it came from. >> Okay, I understand what you're saying and I agree with you. But could I could I give this to
>> Oh, go ahead. So, we're living in the age of AI >> and I think u Dr. Bishop said some weeks ago that AI is going on if you don't have you I don't know how you worded that Dr. Bishop. How did you word that?
>> About a month ago that something you said about AI was going to mean moving on. If you don't move on, you're going to be passed by. >> Yes, I think that's what you said. I think the nature of how quickly it's changing. Um I I I think
um the only consideration I would have in in this um Miss Kelly is that there is a wide range of subjects that are taught in school and I'm going to use the high school as an example where
um I don't know that taking that out and saying that we want all students to state or include that they're going to that they used AI is is necessarily
from an English standpoint required. Um what about the student that's in HVAC? What about the student that is in a pathway hands-on? Are we saying in our policy that we're asking them to do
this? Um, if they were involved in some type of assignment that is written, are we asking that? Am I understanding that correctly? Is that your I want to make sure I'm understanding. >> I understand what Dr. Kelly is saying.
It ought to be a natural piece of a student >> because if we're going to use it, >> but but but Let let me say it this way, Dr. Reed. Say it another way. As as I'm as I'm trying to evaluate it, maybe you could say it another way. After coming out of
an ai week, >> I think we have to teach the students how to use it >> to help them learn. Um, ethically you shouldn't copy and paste, of course. Um, and that goes back
to encyclopedia views, but um, it is ingrained in businesses now and we need to make sure that our students can use it uh, appropriately given the
right prompts. I can see Dr. Bishop's um example of an an HVAC program. If I am studying that and I do this with YouTube, if if there's something I don't understand, I I want to get more
information and AI really can lead you through some stepbystep um things that maybe a trainer or a teacher would get tired of going over
and not be as patient. And so, um, also I I do want to point out that there there are packages that will evaluate if it's an AI, but I was in a session last week where the presenter
said she ran her thesis through AI and it said that um it was 90% something like that AI >> produced. She did that thesis before AI
even existed. >> So it they're not reliable. >> Um teachers tend to know students writing. um even if they're not physically in their class, I know that I know the
difference uh because of discussions and I know how someone writes and if they turn in something that is a higher level and there are patterns in in people's writings that they use.
So um >> Dr. read. But the way the sentence is written, it gives it affords the teacher who because it reads at on any submitted work as required by the teacher. So if
I'm an Hback and I'm not requiring it, then I would still fall under this policy. But if I'm an English teacher and I'm requiring that you do this, then you're required to do it under this policy. Am I reading that correctly? >> Yes.
the the teacher would would make the rules for reporting. >> Okay. >> My my my my understanding by by the teacher being involved is getting the student to
understand the process of AI and eventually understanding the process of AI and eventually adapting to sentence structure, paragraph structure, etc. And so um I'm for as it relates to the
involvement of the teacher introducing AI to a student in a larger level. Uh I understand what you're basically saying when you and I came along that that that innate ability was something that was
innate put in us to automatically have that type of uh ability uh in us but today this is a different student. But I guess even like I've completed
two M's programs and both programs it was very it didn't matter what the professor said you were I didn't care it didn't matter where the information came from if you cited something >> you had to say
>> where that idea came from >> do a footnote >> or whatever your >> style of documentation I'm not saying the teachers all the more being involved in helping students understand. So, I get that piece, but not having the, "Oh, it
doesn't take all that." I just don't want anybody to say, "Oh, student, it doesn't take all that. You don't need to do that." >> No, >> especially if it is a class that would require >> that. >> If we're leaving it up to their
discretion, I may say, "Oh, that's" and I'm and I'm not saying And I don't know what our training in terms of fully our teachers expectations on how students are using AI and what like they have access to
magic school. So then within magic school what have what's come from magic school what's come from outside sources what's come from the students brain and the material and then when they're >> magic magic school is really locked down
uh and it I'm impressed with that program helping teachers help students because it gives immediate feedback. Yeah, >> but then it tells but then they have to site magic school helps you site where where it came from.
>> So, but incorporating that into our daily habits as Dr. Moore was saying or if we leave the verbiage as it is making sure we have something still saying the expectation is
as much as possible we're documenting. >> Yeah. I also think that that it's called it the management of the classroom or the management of the syllabus. You know, it's about the teacher and how they manage their classroom or how they manage their syllabus
>> as it relates to that. But I I guess I'm going to remind you all that the current policy >> already has us giving students very specific parameters of >> and that's where I'm I'm wanting to make
sure that is not left out. >> Yeah. So part of the policy that's already here is that they we give them very strict parameters on when they can use it which is A through E. um and that um teachers have to give
them permission to do so. Um and that I I think that piece of it has already been in the making of u when we brought the AI policy in place. >> Okay.
>> Yep. >> Cuz there may be certain assignments the teacher may say, I don't on this assignment I need you to do old school. Yeah. >> Research. >> Yeah. >> This because that's a lost art as well. >> It is.
>> So I guess thinking >> still in my classroom mode, how AI affects like you said classroom management, my syllabus, all of those things. >> And then when am I going to allow it,
when am I not going to allow it? And then >> I get having the discretion. I just want to make the parameters are the wheels >> and guide guard rails >> are there. >> Yes. And I think when you get to um
the other piece that's added to this, if you'll take a look at the last page, which I think to me um is I'm glad that they added this piece in there um Dr. Reid is the use of AI to create images. >> Students are prohibited from using AI to
>> Yes. Yes. >> harassed, threatened. >> Yes. So, we >> are >> um long started to I'm not going to say we are starting to see more often than not, not neced that look like certain individuals,
sound like certain individuals, and now this aspect of the policy is now included in it. And I think it is very much needed. >> I saw that. >> Absolutely. because u it is very easy for AI to do that. >> Yes.
>> And it can be very psychologically damaging. >> Yeah. So >> to children that >> Mhm. >> Yep. >> I think we're doing well. >> Yep. >> I think we need to this is this is this
is this is this is a good policy. even certain to the point where you know there are certain disclaimers even on social media that that say underneath at the bottom this is an AI generated ad or an AI generated post. >> I think what's what's so dynamic about
this is I think Dr. to read that gives us a good a good uh foundation uh for going forward is that if it's at at all possible there needs to be a platform in our district for teachers uh to create a
a space in classroom management for AI. >> I don't know if that makes sense. Dr. Reed, what do you think? >> Yeah. First, we have to train teachers. >> That's my point exactly. But I think there's >> and and administrators
>> everybody everybody needs that deals with students need >> to understand. >> Well, I'm just old Baptist. >> This machine doesn't think it recognizes patterns. Mhm. Mhm. >> And the more patterns you put in, if you
use it for yourself, the more patterns you put in, it it recognizes and then can predict what you might want to do next. >> It is um it it would look different for an English teacher than a science
teacher. And um it can it can save your teachers a great deal of time. doesn't take away their creativity or their knowledge, but they can put all
the parameters in and um they can get more ideas >> because sometimes if you've taught something for 10 years um your ideas can get stale because students change,
culture changes and just refreshing. you can put an old lesson in and and say please um update this and use these resources because it knows books even
>> and uh it it saves teachers a great deal of time and I think it enriches their >> creativities. So I guess because during I think I saw one of the
sessions in Elevate Ed has some AI training in it. >> Yep. >> At least one of the sessions. Yep. >> So I think that's going to be key. >> Our staff and teachers knowing because across all disciplines, all departments, AI is going to be a part of it.
>> Yes. >> But then how the acceptable use I think is what I like too. that it's what's the acceptable and safe um use of it. I just wanted to make sure I >> do that.
>> That is a part of of teaching someone how to use it is when is it acceptable? >> Okay, >> you're correct. >> Uh staff technology acceptable use and safety that too has um an AI component.
Um I think it's on like the third page. Oh, no. Whoops. There you go. Fourth page. um where the added language talks about um and this is the staff portion of it. >> Uh uhhuh.
>> Yep. >> Yeah. I did notice that. >> Mhm. And um this particular piece also has the line on the last page, Miss Kelly, for your reference, that students must um disclose the use and the extent of AI
assistance on any submitted work as required by the teacher. So it it's that language is in this one. Again, >> it's always going to be teacher supervised. So, we already had this filled in, right?
Doesn't need >> And then we chose social media. Um, we did, but I'm gonna talk with you about the social media policy >> separately because we've always fallen back on this, but now >> there's a new one.
>> It's new to us. >> Okay. >> Um, so we'll talk about that one next, >> but it is currently checked. >> Yeah. So 7540.09, 09 that's the actual replacement policy.
Um it replaces the language and is much more anything you want to add to this um Dr. because I feel like when we went through it, it is much more thorough. Like it lots of green hashes out a lot of things as it relates to AI now that
we've got years under our belt of um usage and things that um could potentially not go as we would like for them to. >> Yeah. >> Yes, you're absolutely correct. And I anticipate that this will be a at least
an annual update because >> it's going so quickly. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yep. Okay. So, the last one that I wanted you to take a look at is 7544. That's it's a it's uh it's actually a
replacement policy. >> Yep. um 7544 we actually have not had as a policy and um I I can't answer why we have it. Um I don't I don't know why we
have not had policy 7544 but 7544 is the use of social media and um I wanted you to to take a look at all of the options um that are available there as it
relates to social media. Currently the district has social media that we use. we use X, Instagram, and Facebook. Um, so those would be three areas that
this social media policy would fall under. Um, Dr. Reed, do you have any feedback on this? We're coming into this new I mean we've had guidelines, unspoken guidelines I guess you could say, but thoughts on this particular um policy
because right now I know the settings on certain things are set where you can't >> to prevent bullying and some other things. you can't respond to certain things or you can't respond in a certain way and the controls are set to not accept a
post if it's not within the parameters or guidelines of the of the district. Mhm. >> Um, so I know we have that already and this would just maybe bolster if
I think the biggest thing would be the the bullying and things that takes place on social media or the the um the AI generated images >> because now there's so much
that we were not able to do or see before that now we need >> we may not have needed it before but now I think we do need the separate >> yes >> to cover >> whether we did in the path because of where we are now in the state of things
we need this to >> go forward >> um any feedback or or guidance um that you can share with us Dr. read um in your communication or works with other districts pertaining to this particular policy.
>> You are the first district that I've spoken to about this policy. >> Okay. Okay. >> Um the others felt like they could go through it on their own because I'd already done the 382 with
them. >> Yes. Um but um my feeling is it just lays out specifically some rules, standards of conduct uh for employees and volunteers
>> on social media on the school's social media platforms. And um my experience with social media with just a handful of
teachers was that I had to do some corrective and I wasn't even quite sure if I was legally um allowed to do that, but I did it anyway. Um bec you know, you have to you have to consider your first amendment
rights. >> Yeah. And >> um >> I wish we didn't even have social media. >> Yes, it is definitely >> I know it's convenient ex and and I use
it to keep in contact with family far and wide and friends. And I also look up like when I was hiring people, I would look on their social media, their personal social media accounts to see if there are any red flags.
>> But um this provides you with um many options to tighten up your social media. Mhm. Yeah. I think that's the only thing I like about it >> is is the the tightening up of of social media and even the platforms that we're
connected to. Um it's going to give you some uh opportunity to to even uh disconnect to from from some of those uh and be limited in how you allow those
to to enter your platform. >> Right? Yeah, because >> when you look at edits, >> you designate who can post >> um information on there and
I don't know that many school systems allow all teachers to post. I think they might let them have a page on their website um for information, but I don't know if
if every school corporation allows every teacher to um communicate through social media. I think they have to send it to someone >> who is responsible for posting the
school's information. Is that correct, Dr. It is it is and now with the use of parent square we really want our communication to occur there. Um but there are times all of our schools have
the ability to have a school for example X account um where messaging may go out for school events and those types of things. Um that has been our our past practice. Um, and then of course teachers may have their own personal
accounts but aren't aren't related to the school, >> but there's a person at each building that's assigned to that. >> Yes. >> Yes. So, I think for our our intention purposes, we would just need to go
through this document and decide what you would want checked and what you don't. Um because this, if I hear you both correctly, you want to move forward with the use of this policy. >> I do. >> Mhm. Okay.
>> It's a good policy because >> it's a good I mean this is the first time it's coming to fruition. So we better it's better. You can always improve the policy. Is that right? >> Yes. >> Yep. So I would say the b the first option here is that the school board
authorizes the use of social media to promote community involvement and facilitate effective communication with students, parents, guardians, staff. Um, >> right. >> And do you want to include and the
general public? >> I do. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Okay. So we would check that >> because especially if you want your community to know what your district is doing >> correct >> and how those dollar like so now if we want to put out a referendum update or
whatever community so including >> so we're changing this to community instead of volunteers >> um I think if uh including volunteers end up and so that's the question do we want to in um including
um do we want to also include our volunteers. >> I would say community. >> Okay. >> And then that's everybody. >> Yep. >> Is that Yeah. >> Yep. Okay. So then um then down at the
one two two more paragraphs down in designating corporation approved social media platforms the superintendent shall specify which platforms are appropriate for use at the corporation level. the building level or department level. We
have the option of checking that or not. So, do you want the superintendent to make a determination on what is what the approved platforms are? >> I think in the kingdom you should. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, we check that box.
>> Mhm. >> Then the next option that we would want to take a look at is towards the bottom. It says that the corporation should consult with their legal counsel concerning the first amendment implications associated with using social media that permits public
comment. So option one is the corporation uses approved social media platform sites as interactive forms of communication or um you can choose option two which reads
the corporation uses appropriate social media platform sites as interactive forms of communication and you can either uh you could check and accepts or invites
um welcomes public comment. Um you can we can choose all or none and do would do you want to leave it with option one or option two. So the difference is
people can comment on both options or that's what because with interactive forms of communication that means you can go back and forth >> or you just allowed to like >> that. Yes. I think Dr. Reed do you what would be the difference if the line says
uh as interactive forms of communication? What would be the difference between that and option two is very specific and says that you could we could potentially check accepts, invites or welcomes. Um
>> um there there isn't a difference in that section. What what option two does is expand and gives the school authority over employees personal posts. >> Okay. >> Public >> okay
>> u platforms. That is that is something that um >> we don't want that that first amendment. >> I don't know. Yeah. >> Um, >> I had a teacher who was a high school
teacher, very attractive lady, >> but she constantly posted on her personal site and she allowed students to be her friend um, of herself in a hot tub, you know,
in a bikini um, drinking. >> And I just I took issue with that. And I said, if you you know, it's your right to post whatever, but I don't think it's your right to
have students on on your your friends until they graduate. >> And who's going to be policing all of that? >> And who has time to police all that? >> Well, sometimes my parents bring it to your attention. >> Right. Parents.
>> Yes. Yeah. and as they should what their children are looking at, right? >> Well, to >> but then they they want someone to fix it. >> Um to Dr. Reed's point and even in the notating, what we could do is reach ask
miscarriage if there is anything that that we that we need to be aware of. >> I would agree with that. >> Okay. And that way we'll so we'll come back to choosing option one or two and I'll speak with miscarriage about about giving us some
>> additional information. But on the there are lots of additional choices um >> here. But what we what we could do is just have her take a look at all of it >> uh all in one swoop. That way any additional questions in the writing
we'll have that from her. Um and then we can come back to this one. Yeah, this is pretty sticky. >> Yeah. So, I'll >> It also prevents a teacher from responding to a parent and because as it says in the policy can
be misconstrued as board sponsored speech, >> employees answering um their opinion rather than the facts. >> Yes. And we already have some of that with
some things that we don't have like the some of the social media that is created by parents. >> Mhm. >> People respond. >> Well, yes. And >> that we can't control that part. But I'm
saying there's enough to do with what we content we've created that we need to control. >> Yes. And um >> to what extent >> even just recently, Dr. Reid, with the um litigation between the
Ball State administration and the professor that was terminated based on her personal uh social media post. Um it of course there was no winners and
losers from the standpoint that it didn't go to to a hearing but um she is going to be paid uh for this particular action because she was terminated based on that. So, all that
to say that I think we will reach out to our attorney to help guide us in the right direction to avoid any potential mis Yes. missteps because of wording or and those types of things.
>> And she can yappropriate word if we need to change it. >> Okay. So, I don't have anything. And we made it. >> Yes, we did. >> Dr. Reed, I cannot thank you enough for your time. Um, I will circle back to you
just to kind of give you um where we landed on a couple of these, especially the social media one, just as a point of reference for you. Um, when we are we finalize it, but I continue to thank you for your time. Um, we'll look forward to
transitioning to the new platform and of course we'll have our training completed. But I'll certainly reach out as we as we learn our way with the new new platform. >> I'm happy to help you in any way, Dr. Bishop. >> Okay. All righty. Well, thank you so much
>> for all of your help today. >> Thank you >> everybody. Have a nice day. >> You too. >> Okay. Second, Stacy Abs was it? Yeah.