Thank you. All right, we're uh about ready to get started. I will call this special meeting a town hall style meeting of the burough council water and uh ask for the compliance open public meetings acted
on memorial. office. For those who are able, please rise for the pledge of >> allegiance. I alsy >> Thank you. And roll call.
We're uh working on our >> Mayor Connley >> here. >> Mland >> here. Mr. Landrean >> here. >> Mr. Range >> here. >> Mr. Harold Budis >> here. >> And Mr. Forte as well. >> No, Melissa's not coming. Bob, Melissa's
not coming. I don't think so. >> You mean Melissa's coming? >> I don't >> I don't think so. >> Okay, Melissa. I saw yesterday. >> I don't know. >> Welcome all. Uh just to so people understand how this
will run tonight. This is a advertised meeting, but no business or business deliberation will occur by the council today. Our goal is to provide information, answer questions, and listen to comments.
the goal of everyone in this room learning, everyone at home learning, watching this tonight or a later date, and also the council learning and the mayor, too. Um, and I certainly this is a uh busy time of year, but this is a
very timely subject. So, we wanted to get this in uh even in December. So, I appreciate you coming out in that bitter cold out there. I know some are sitting with a blanket and maybe a hot cocoa in front of their uh TV and watching
YouTube uh live. So, uh thank you for uh taking this on and uh I know a lot will be watching this after the fact. I've also alerted some neighboring towns of this uh town hall meeting because I think what we're striving to do tonight will not only be helpful for Madison,
but communities across the state. And so, let me just uh give you a little overview on the uh the evening. We'll go through the presentation. You'll see a couple different panelists so you don't have to listen to me all night. Um, we'll have questions and comments from the council members and then questions
from the audience. And the way we'll do the questions from the audience and keep things moving is you can your questions one of two ways. You can step up to the lect turn ask your question or if you think you might have to leave early or you're bashful, we do have uh index
cards on the table there. you can write down the question and uh drop it off up um drop it off to just right right over there. We'll grab it. We'll try to address all the questions. Um and they will be all caught together and
then we'll close the questions and our panelists or others will answer them just to keep things moving along because if we answer one one question and the next question, we could be here quite a while and may not uh get all the information we want. And then as with
every public meeting, there's a time for comments. And those comments can be on tonight's topic or anything else you want to comment on. And I have to say we have a little issue with our projection. What should be over there on that screen right now should be
this presentation, but it's uh something got fouled up a little bit. There it goes. But it will it will go back and forth and so you'll all see me and two of me can be scary. Um, so I apologize for that.
Let's let's get right into this. So, here are some of the topics you'll you'll hear about tonight. We're going to you're going to hear an overview of Madison's round three and round four affordable housing obligations. This was presented to the council planning board,
but a lot of people did not catch it that time. So, this will be a a slight rerun. We'll talk about what's going on at draw farms because a lot of you got activated in this because hearing about development draw the farms. You'll hear why it's why that is in a transition.
We'll talk about a topic that is near and dear to us, the Drew, not just Drew University, but the Drew Forest and uh how we are saving a forest and supporting university. And I again we have the friends of the Drew Forest out in the hallway. You can go to their
website to find more information about something I'm going to be talking about at the end. But if you haven't visited our website is extremely um informative. We'll talk about redevelopment because that is a confusing topic. People often think redevelopment of urban areas of
blight and it's not always the case and so you'll understand that we'll touch a little bit on Madison's history preserving open space because development and preserving open space should be handinand it's one of the things I've been pushing on the state
level if we push development without the understanding of preserving open space or aquifer we are doing a disservice another hot topic has been pilots has nothing to do with air traffic controllers or Thanksgiving but the pilots for financing uh payment of lia
taxes why we do it and what the impact is and of course as I said before we'll have time for questions so these are a lot of the questions that were popping up I won't uh ask go through all those questions right now but I think uh these are questions that
have been on your mind and uh you can uh take a picture of it and check it off at the end to we answer these questions, but those this is one of the reasons why we have we're here tonight. So, our panelists will be Mayor Bob County, yours truly,
Councilman Eric Range, who will also serve he's he's presenting because he also serves on the planning board as a council representative of the planning board and he's been a member of our subcommittee working on the Drew University uh forest and uh potential
development there. So he will be uh coming up to speak about Drew. Uh on the burough side, we'll also hear from our administrator Ray Cody has had a major role in um coordinating our answer to affordable housing. Our uh CFO brick
obviously we'll be talking finances, the pilots and the tax assessment issues and everything. We have Susan Favati who is our planner to the uh planning board and is part of our affordable housing team. issues with BFJ plan planning. Um and
then our planner our brought on board for affordable housing with topology Graham Hton. So welcome Graham and Susan. So this is going to be a very quick
overview but just a little history. Uh we will cover some of these topics shortly. There once was a thing called COA, Council on Affordable Housing. And I've been a mayor for a long time, 14 years, I can tell you that uh in my
early years, mayors hated KA and when it disappeared as uh Chris Christie did not name any commissioners to it, so it's could not function. the mayors decided, you know, that code wasn't so bad after all because it gave a really clear
guideline for affordable housing, which is an obligation of the state. So, that disappeared. So, what then happened was round three, which we're just wrapping up. You'll hear more about that, was actually negotiated between Fairshair Housing Center and in the courts. Fact,
there was a some comments at one point that the amount of money that was spent on attorneys during round three could have built a whole lot of housing, but it was a certainly a challenge. So, round four, new state legislation, it officially put COA to sleep, and it's a
whole new process. Again, you'll hear more about that. Why are we doing this all? It's estimated just on affordable housing alone, not overall housing, there's a 200,000 unit shortfall in New Jersey for affordable housing. These are
people supporter of communities. You often think they're very low income, but there's also the people that are teaching our children, maybe starting off in public works, maybe working in our stores, maybe working for you. That's where the shortage is. I was
talking to our interim superintendent. You know, they had a delayed opening because of uh the threat of uh snow on Tuesday. That didn't happen in my day way back when, not because we were hardier, but because the teachers could afford to live in Madison. They're now
traveling great distances. So, the way we operate has changed because of lack of affordable housing. And um market rate housing, it's just getting tougher and tougher. You have friends that want to move into our great town of Madison, you know, they're
having struggling as they get out bid for a house. things keep getting driven up. And a reminder that every town has an obligation, but you'll hear this shortly. Developed towns such as Madison can adjust their obligation by way of vacant land adjustment. We are very
welldeveloped. Property wise, I often point out when my family moved here in 1961, our population was 16,000. We're now just around 17,000. Compare that to neighboring towns like Farm Park, Andover Township, and others. has been
far more because they were not developed and we are rigorously defending those adjustments so we do the right thing meet our obligation but do the right thing for overall matters quick thing um two ways that obligations
are quick clearly are often delivered one is inclusionary housing this is where 80% of the units are market rate 20% more affordable. So do the math on that. In order to get 10 affordable units and towards that
200,000 goal, you have to build 50 units. It's they're taxable or may have a pilot. This is being very simplified level. And another way is the 100% affordable just as we did at the forum on the
walnut here in Madison. It is built in partnership with the burrow and developers. It relies on tax credits to deliver the units. Typically it has they're tax exempt or have a very low pilot because again it's 100% uh affordable.
But one of the challenges is the cost of land is almost makes it impossible. We use burrow land to make that happen. We can't always do that and we can't convert parkland that sometimes come up because there is you have to actually
replace any acreage at a multiplier parkland. So current development projects will um we'll be as I mentioned disc discussing draw de development not only how it uh helps us address our round four obligation but how it shores up our tax
base and we'll touch a little bit on what if we did nothing that some some towns have said we'll just do nothing. Um, one of the things we're faced with, and you'll see this when Jim comes up here, what that does
the tax burden to our residents and then being exposed to builder's remedy. We have a builder that is challenged our round four who is proposing 49 units to the acre, far greater density than we would ever
imagine. And just a very quick uh case studies, three real towns town M. So they had a change in they they agreed on a pa p path to develop de deliver afford portable housing even had
a developer on board and they cancelled the approved project taken to court spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend the decision and what happened in the end they're building the exact same project that had been approved years few years
ago but the cost of all that taxpayer money. Town E paid $7 million in a lawsuit after fighting for 10 years, plus 1.3 on a tax appeal related to that lawsuit, plus
$200,000 for a frivolous lawsuit, all trying to avoid delivering their obligation. And then on a simpler level, there are many towns that lost their uh lost her immunity, which basically loses local zoning control. a builder
comes in and says, "I want to do this 49 acres uh university acre. I'm going to deliver these affordable houses for town Y through this." And they have to accept it because they have not answered the call. Now we will uh talk about our third
round compliance process. I'll get press my voice, get a little sip of water, please come on up. Uh thank you, mayor. Uh members of the governing body. Uh good evening, uh residents as well. Uh again, uh as was introduced, my name is Grant Pedto, a
principal with the firm topology here this evening as the Bur's affordable housing planner. Um I've been assisting the burrow uh in compliance with the amended third round plan um as well as full preparation uh fourth round plan as well. Um this presentation is very similar to one that I gave to the
planning board. board adopted both the amended third round plan and their fourth round plan. I have sorry I'm a little shorter. I apologize. Um again um the presentation I'm about to walk through um I gave uh to the
planning board back in June this year um when the board adopted both and the amended third round plan document as well as the fourth round plan. I'll walk through those uh two documents in detail um and look forward to questions later. Um so by way of just some initial
background um on February 14th of this year uh Judge Hanssbury issued a judgment order uh concluding uh this is was as a result of a challenge filed to the third round plan uh for the burrow. Um Judge Hanssbury uh issued a judgment order uh concluding that 48 acres of the
Drew University campus uh should be should have been considered potentially developable as part of their round compliance plan process. um they determined that they were not environmentally constrained and must be included in the third round vacant land adjustment. Uh vacant land adjustment is an analysis that built out communities
are uh able to take um whereby they can reduce the obligation of their affordable housing need uh by quantifying and saying well we have a limited number of vacant land available on which to build affordable housing. Um in this case uh it was demonstrated that there was uh 48 acres at the Drew
University campus that could should have been considered uh as developable under as a result of the order. Uh this acreage adjustment resulted in an additional 77 unit obligation uh for the township for the bureau to address in the third round using a density established by the court of eight uh
dwelling units per acre and then a 20% set aside. That's where that 77 unit value comes from. The order required Madison to present a revised vacant land adjustment um update its fair share obligation and amend the third round housing element fair share plan to address those additional 77 units. Um
the important point here was that uh the order allowed the burrow to address the additional obligation any way the bureau deems appropriate which could include Drews lands or not. Um and uh in this uh case the bureau elected not to address the obligation on cruise lands um and
identified alternative strategies which I'll walk through on the next slide. Great. Um so here listed on the screen um is uh the compliance approaches that the bureau included in the amended third round plan to address the additional 77 unit obligation. Um I I won't I don't
necessarily want to go through all of them in detail, but at the highest level um we have two of the Geralda farms uh properties, three Geralda um and one Geralda the multif family component. Um each uh the three Geralda site producing 28 units for sale. Uh the one Geralda
site producing seven units um with seven additional bonus credits. Um these are supportive housing units for adults with uh developmental disabilities. Um so those uh garner an additional a rental a rental credit. Oh, I apologize. That's >> those are the regular rental units.
>> That's ground four. I I apologize. Uh this one all the project is the multif family component which includes seven rental units. Uh rentals receive one additional bonus credit per unit. Um the third strategy line here is an accessory apartment program. Um that's an and I have a note down here at the bottom. An accessory apartment program is a
compliance mechanism that allows a homeowner to create a small separate apartment within their house or on the same property, make it available at an affordable rent under a deed restriction. Uh these units count towards the affordable housing requirement and are meant to provide lower cost and less dense housing options within existing neighborhoods.
Uh this would the uh proposal by the burrow in this case would just be 10 of those units to be created. Uh no more than 10. Uh next is uh the property at 28 street uh community place with three units and three additional bonus credits. Mad small apartments two units
and two additional bonus credits. Um, and these are all units that are um, substantially complete or have already been approved um, through the process. Um, and that was a key component as well through the perils compliance in that um, they've already done a lot of excellent work to provide affordable housing and facilitate development of
these sites. Um, and we're just counting what's already in the pipeline to come uh, come to fruition. Um and then finally, we identified a supportive housing property here in the burrow that's operated by Community Hope, which then also provides three additional units. Um thereby satisfying the full 77 unit obligation that was identified by
the judge's order um to demonstrate compliance. Okay, now shifting gears to the fourth round compliance process. Um, as the mayor indicated earlier, um, the amended Fair Housing Act was signed into law, um, in March of 2024, which substantially changed the process from
the third round to the fourth round, um, and created a whole new series of, uh, processes. On the screen here, I have the statutory timeline. This is the timeline that was set forth within the legislation um, with explicit dates. Um, I won't go through this one in detail. I'll go through the next one to demonstrate how the burrow has met each
of these timelines um, and maintained its uh, position uh, for strong compliance in the fourth round. Um so here on the slide um to demonstrate compliance. So the first first deadline was January 31st of this year. On January 27th the burough council adopted the perspective need
obligation number of 206 units by resolution. Um the department of community affairs uh prepared the adjust the obligation numbers for all municipalities across the state. Um and the bureau adopted that number that was uh assigned uh by the department of community affairs.
Um the January 28th, the bureau filed um the the adopted number with the program, the affordable housing dispute resolution program um to ensure compliance and then there was a challenge period from March 1st through April April 1st where any interested party could challenge the number that was adopted by the burrow. We did not
receive any challenges during that period um because we adopted the number that was assigned by the state. Um then June 13th uh 2025 uh the bureau issued its fourth round housing plan draft document um and on June 23rd 2025 the planning board adopted and the bureau uh
also did a endorsing resolution of the fourth round housing share plan. Um and then beginning on July 1st uh was a challenge period. So any interested party could file a challenge to um the burrow's fourth round housing plan. Um and in a the challenge period would
began July 1st and ran through August 31st. And in August of 2025 um the burrow received challenges from Avalon Bay and Drew University alleging that the fourth round housing plan was non-compliant. Um Avalon Bay uh identified that they had an opportunity
to construct 492 housing units on 10 acres of the Drew University campus and that was ignored by the burrow was their convention. Um in addition, Drew University sought to develop 352 units um on the Drew forest and felt that the exclusion of those two that that project
as well um presented a deficiency in the burough's housing. Um beginning in September of this year, uh the affordable housing dispute resolution program started to help adjudicate um and mediate the uh challenges. Um and we are still in that process at this point um with the
challenging trying to >> Hey, hey Graham, could I just since we keep tossing around three and round four, it might be helpful to note that round three was the period from 2025. The 10ear each round is a 10-year period. So that's a 10-year period.
Round three is 2015 to 2025 or like the middle of 2025. And then round four started in the middle of 2025 and will run through 2035. So one of the key takeaways here is while round three is quote unquote over, we're still
litigating and dealing with issues holding over from round three. So just thought that would be helpful. And the actual definitive deadline point is June 30th was the last day of round three and July 1st is the first day of round four. So that that's why the housing element
had to be adopted by by July 1. >> Thank you for the clarification. >> Um so just some high level notes about what are the key contents and processes for development of the fourth round housing element fair share plan. First I'm just going to touch quickly on adjusting the obligation how that's
done. Um what is the housing element fair share plan? does that include and how are we addressing our obligation and what are the additional required components um of the document as well. Um so the perspective need obligation just at the highest level is a projection of low and moderate housing needs based on development and growth
which is regionally likely to occur in a region or municipality. Um that's the number of units that's assigned by DCA. Um and it's calculated for methodology that's set forth legislation. just realized that these are not. Thanks. Um so, uh vacant land
adjustment, which I did touch on briefly earlier, um the so the bureau of Madison undertook, um a vacant land adjustment to determine how many affordable housing units could be constructed on vacant land that is available and could be developable um under uh within the burrow at present time, thereby
adjusting the obligation downward from 206 to what could be actually yielded based on available lands. Um, and it's important to note that these are not lands that would be programmed for development, but it's to identify how much development could occur
theoretically on these properties. Um, the output of this analysis is what's called the realistic development potential. Um, and that's the sum of potential affordable housing unit yields from all vacant unconstrained available land at a minimum presumptive density. Um, and with a 20% set aside. Um in
addition, the amended uh fair housing act for this round adjudicating the fourth round um contained an additional obligation called the likely to redevelop obligation. Um this is a provision that was added to the legislation recognizing that many communities across New Jersey are built
out and you know have little vacant land available to effectuate uh development. Um so this uh compliance mechanism requires municipalities to go through a process to identify underutilized properties or um opportunities for redevelopment. So existing development
sites um that could redevelop within the 10-year period to provide additional housing opportunities. And then the global obligation uh for the fourth round is the RDP plus these likely to redevelop parcels. Um this is just kind of uh discussing
how the obligations to be addressed. Uh you know what a reasonable likelihood of redevelopment um and uh that ensuring that um these projects will be constructed or provided during the ensuing 10-year period. Um these can be provided through surplus credits or carryover from the prior round um
applications that are anticipated to be approved um by June 30th of 2025. zoning ordinances, overlays, redevelopment plans um or other means uh through bonus credit provisions how we can address uh the rural housing application
uh bonus credits. I won't talk through these in detail, but um the new legislation also set forth a series of bonus credit opportunities um where uh whereby we have uh some types of units that can receive up to one full bonus credit, meaning that each one one of those units essentially counts as two um
or multiple half bonus credit opportunities um whereby one unit, you know, if it meets one of these criteria, counts as one and a half. Um it's important to note that bonus credits can't be stacked, but you take the highest bonus credit opportunity that's available um and many here within the burrow um qualify for the trans development. Um, if you're within a half
mile of a rail or bus station, um, leverage. Um, okay. The housing element fair share plan contains two components. One is the housing element, which is a summary of municipal characteristics, demographic information, employment data, um, what's happening in the community. Um, and then the fair share plan is, uh, the
municipality's approach to addressing that obligation, how we're going to plan to meet the affordable housing. In addition, the new legislation set forth a series of additional requirements that had to be affixed to the draft plans such as to the uh housing element fair share plans such as
draft ordinances, resolutions, marketing plans, and other required documents. Okay, so now shifting into the compliance strategy that we included in uh our plan here for the burrow. Um first uh these two maps kind of just depict the um detailed analysis we
undertook for the beta land adjustment. Uh the map on the right shows vacant land and parcel assemblages that we analyzed against environmental constraints and the map on the right shows those environmental constraints overlaid with those vacant areas to identify how much realistic development potential there could be within them.
Um next slide shows um kind of a summary table of our obligation numbers. So here uh based on the vacant land analysis that we did uh the realistic development potential that we identified was just six units effectuated on um vacant land within the burrow. Um and then we to
looked at parcels likely to redevelop which is 25% of the remaining balance which is 50 units or credits. Um and then we adjusted that fourth round obligation to be a total of 56 units adding the six plus the 50. Um and that was the number of units that we had to
provide for. Um and then uh the amount of bonus credits that we are able to take advantage of is 25% of the total obligation that's also set forth. So the bureau is able to leverage up to 51 and a half. Um this slide just talks about compliance strategy. Um sites must
demonstrate suitability suitability uh to be effectuated. So the sites that we had to select had to be approvable. Uh could they be approved? Could development be approved on these sites? Are they available? Um, do they have free and clear title? Are they not encumbered by easements or other restrictions? Are they developable? Do
they have sufficient access? Are they uh provision for water and sewer? Um, and are they suitable? Uh, suitability looking at adjacent land uses. Are they in an appropriate area or location uh to accommodate development? Um, oh, and I did just want to note, sorry, I'm jumping back one side. at
this note at the bottom that um with respect to the developable criteria it that does consider infrastructure but only with respect to water and sewer infrastructure. It does not consider um you know other infrastructure such as schools um for example. So that's the and this is set forth within the regulatory criteria of the um program
the administrative code. Okay. So here is the table for the compliance strategy that we outlined and identified. Um so you'll see kind of two different groupings of boxes. The red box outlines the two strategies that we've identified to address the RDP or realistic development potential and then
the blue is identified to address the likely to redevelop properties. You'll see that the ones are all the supportive housing project is listed twice in both teams um because that project was well in advance in the planning stages um and I believe just go through this week
>> and the board approved it last night >> right so we felt that that should be characterized as a realistic development potential but then also it is it does qualify as a likely to solution so we did split the units um to demonstrate compliance um the property at 27 Elm Street is an existing uh affordable site
where we are extending the affordability controls for another period period. So that also satisfies um and then we have a column that depicts the um bonus credit provision or application page. Um as I mentioned supportive housing uh in this case the property of one of providing uh housing for development to disabled adults with developmental
disabilities. Um each of those units count as two. So they are provisioned for one additional bonus credit. Um then the other strategies that we've identified here in the table are property at 9 through 17 run street um which uh when developed could yield six affordable units. We have to T to access
there. So that's uh 1.5 three three additional bonus credits two and eight Shunpike office buildings there. Uh six affordable units and then 3133 Kings Road. Uh there could be three affordable units on that side as well. Um total compliance would be 36 total units 27
bonus credits and total crediting approach of 63 where 56 and a half. Um, and as I mentioned, uh, we are right now within the challenge period. The deadline for the challenge period to conclude, uh, for the affordable housing dispute resolution program to conclude
their process is December 31st. Um, and so what happens over the next few weeks expected. >> Thank you, >> Graham. Before you sit down, just so everybody understands because that was a very thorough but quick presentation. So
this fourth round obligation that Eric said started on uh, July 1st. of 2025. What is the burough's obligation now from what we presented to the courts that we should have to build over the next 10 years? Is it 63 or is it
>> 200? >> The obligation so I'm going to >> this table. So based on our based on the realistic development potential analysis we identified six and then likely to redevelop is um 50. So 56 total is our
adjusted obligation. So that is the obligation that we are statutoily required to 56. The compliance plan that we have put forward gives us 63 little bit of a >> but hasn't been agreed to yet by the courts being challenged. >> We have not been certified at this point. >> Right. So the third round still
challenged and now the fourth round is still challenged also. >> And it could go to 200 like they originally requested. it. I don't want to speak too much about what's pending. The challenges the the
legislation sets forth that the challenges filed must be very specific in nature and must focus on specific components of the plan. The challenging entities have challenged a couple of different components of our plan. Um and they're demonstrating that their sites divided units. Um I don't know what the
final number will be. Um I anticipate that it would not be the full 206 the event. Um but what the challenging entities are saying is that they have units that they >> right. So that would be the developers who want to come and increase their
amount of units in the burrow so that they can say to their fair share into the courts, oh look, we can give you more, but we're pushing back because we're not allowing that great of development density. >> Sound right? >> Correct. Yeah. Additionally. >> Okay. And and what we know is that it
won't be more than 206 >> right >> at this point. Correct. The num the ceiling is set. >> Yes, sir. >> Um we say that >> our obligation is 56. Um and through a challenge that could go somewhere
between 56 and 206, but it will never exceed what the uh state gave us back at the beginning of the year, which was 206. >> Sure. Thanks, Eric. Thank you. >> Thanks, Graeme. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Graham. And I know that's a
lot of information, but it shows process that our team here, our professionals have to go through to put together our plan to to answer the need. Um and uh we're going to go to our CFO Jim Bernett for round round one for the uh
what's going on at Geralda. He's going to be talking about the status of the buildings and more importantly what's the value what's happening to the value of the buildings and how we're approaching it. >> Thank you, Mayor. Uh, first I just want
to hope everybody recognizes how complex and quite honestly confusing this is. Um, and I just want to applaud the governing body for becoming experts in something they probably didn't realize they had to become experts in as well as the planning board having to learn all
this and understand all this and do this. It is incredibly complex and as the Eric alluded to, the governing body has been working hard to make that number as low as possible. There is a moral obligation to affordable housing, but as Councilman Range said, we have a
ceiling and as Graham said, we're trying to get it down to this number. So, we'll see where that goes. I wanted to talk for a few minutes about Geralda Farms. It's really changed a lot um over the last 20 years. This is an image. Here's the corner of uh Woodland Road and
Monica right there. That that kind of V-shaped building. That's the one building that's really quite visible. And this building that's quite visible. Madison Avenue is here. Um and Glenn Wild's on the far side. Uh right now we have draw the three. This building here empty. We have draw the one. This building here empty. This is the new
Atlantic Health property. They're looking to add space there. As you can see, there's a lot of area to develop. This is partially empty building. This building um Geralda 2 and I I don't I don't know where they came up with these numbers. 314527 makes no sense. So I have to have a
chart in my office. But um Gerald the 2 was just bought and um is going to become a new corporate headquarters. We hope that's what we understand. And then the one success story is Gerald the 7. That's a fully it's a multi-tenant building fully rented. All these offices um used to be single tenant corporate
headquarters um way back in the dam looking at Austri. And it's just completely changed. It's just not that way anymore. Um so the office building values have basically crashed. um an average home uh which is probably about
a million dollars um in value uh about $900,000 in value in 2013 paid 11,700 in taxes. In 2015, no change in assessment uh paid $15,000 increase of 28%. Gerald
the three had a significant reduction in their VA in their assessed value and I'll show you in a minute why. Because the prices of office buildings are just cratering. So, their taxes actually went down 52%. That's terrible. That just means that we're all paying we all I
live in Madison, too, that anybody here that's living in Madison is paying a little more because they're paying a little less. So, we're going to go through a couple of the sales that recently happened. Geralda Farms in 2007 sold for 52 million. In 2020, it sold for 16 million. This is the property.
You can see the building here when you're kind of looking at the main gate. It's right there on your left hand side. on your right hand side. Um the old shearing plow building that um just recently went through the planning board process for redevelopment.
Geralda three is the old Quest Diagnostics building um on the on the kind of far side. Um it uh sold in 2007 for 53 million. It sold in 2020 for less than $8 million. Yeah.
Geralda 7, which is the V-shaped building on the corner here that I referenced earlier, sold in 2007 for 78 million. It sold in 2021 for 29 million. It is fully rented, as I said before. And I know what you're saying. Oh, Jim, all those sales happened during the pandemic. That's why they're so low.
Well, we just had this building here, Geralda 2, um, which sold in 2014 for 53 million. It sold a month and a half ago, two months ago for 8.5 million. So, That's why their property taxes that they're paying are going down so much
because the value of these buildings is going down so much because we all know that there are less people working in offices and they're not rented. Is that it for me, mayor? Um, no, there's more slides. So, um, the governing body and the planning board have talked about the concept of splitting Gerald into kind of
a more commercial section and a residential section. The residential section being more towards Madison Avenue. By doing that, it will strengthen the existing commercial properties for all the seven is fully rented because they've been aggressive, good landlords, and because they've been
able to basically get tenants out of the other buildings. Tax appeals and upcoming revaluation could shift the tax burden. That's what I was talking about. If you imagine there's a hundred of us at the table and five of them are office buildings because they're paying their fair share
and all of a sudden four of them walk away. we now have to pay more uh when the bill comes. So, um earlier this year, we had a refund that we had to pay back tax dollars that we had sitting um because we knew this was going to happen. We had to pay back $400,000
to one property in Geralda because they successfully appealed the property taxes that they had paid. Um, and side note, the board of ed, and I know Steve Tindle's here and others, no offense to the board of ed, love the board of ed, my kids graduated from Madison High, but they don't have to pay that. The bureau
has to pay the entire amount. So, we collect the dollars and uh give the board of ed their money, give the county their money, but when it comes time for a tax appeal, we're on the hook 100%. So, um, the planning board, uh, worked
on expanding uses of the buildings to try to make them more appealing to continue to be used as commercial buildings. And unfortunately, that did not work. And the challenge is that, and we'll talk more about this later, if if
we do nothing and we have all this affordable housing obligation and we don't satisfy this affordable housing obligation or we're not proactive in actually doing all the work that Graham did, then builders can come in and basically say, I'm going to, as mayor
said, do 40 units an acre here. I'm going to do way more than any of us want. So, I think that's the last slide. And Eric, you're up. Thanks, Jim. >> Any questions? That's >> Yeah. Well,
>> and Jim will be coming back a little bit for uh because we did such a great job. We'll come >> back up shortly, but to cover what is uh going on with uh >> Drew University, I'm going to ask uh Councilman Eric Range, as I said before,
is uh serving on the planning board and also being a member of our subcommittee working with Drew. >> Thank you, mayor. Mayor, welcome everybody. Um, just one note on Geralda before I kick off on on Drew. Uh, we referenced that uh over the last couple
of planning board meetings. Um, the planning board recently approved uh the projects at one Geralda. Um, that overall project hits at about 13 units an acre. um if they had come in
and had challenged us and had come in at like a Rose Hall density, which is the project here on Kings Road, that would be almost 400 units um at that at that. So that's that's where you can see some of the give and take on kind of these
negotiations that happen with the developers um as we meet our obligations and then also um you know do what's right and and frankly good planning for Madison. Eric, what are the unit? What's the quantity of units that we finally approved on the planning board?
>> 281 in the multif family. Um, and that includes seven affordable family units that Grant mentioned in our confined strategies. And then there are 51 supportive housing beds which are comprised within I think it's 37 units
in there. 37 units. 51 beds. for the purposes of affordable housing. It's actually the bed count for supportive housing, which is why the unit number escapes me at the moment. >> Yeah, that's what it is. >> Yeah. So, >> thank you. >> Moving on to Drew University. So, the
Drew University campus, uh, much like Gerald Farms is, uh, a a campus that's in flux, right? um higher education as a whole um is is challenged right now and certainly small liberal arts colleges um
are feeling the brunt of that let alone a small liberal arts college operating in one of the most expensive markets in all of the United States right we're seeing liberal arts colleges close in the Midwest where their costs are much
much less um not working or not working in um the New York metro area. So, back in 2021, after we had uh buttoned up our first five years of uh litigation
around our round three uh obligation, in 2021, Drew came in and uh started a second litigation suing us uh under our round three obligation and most recently challenged, as Graham said, our round
for obligation. And while the graphic here uh shows an earlier concept plan of 192 town houses, the propose the proposal in their challenge documents for just the acreage of the Drew Forest
is 352 towns throughout um what is now the the Drew Forest Preserve. Um, we're working with Drew very closely um to finalize the plan that would have
this not happen. Um, and that negotiation is ongoing um should that settlement finally come to fruition in the coming weeks um the forest would be fully preserved.
I mentioned the challenge in general for small liberal arts colleges. Um the campus as it stands right now is 163 acres. Um the forest area is depending on which what you count as the forest is somewhere in the neighborhood
of 48 to 53 acres. Um and there is a separate um redevelopment two separate redevelopment sites totaling 10 acres. um that are part of this proposal um as well both as it relates to the
challenges and as it relates to our um our settlement negotiations. So the redevelopment on 10 acres is uh two different sites. One is uh if you know Drew very well, it's the Sitterly
parking lot um behind the Methodist church uh on the eastern edge of the campus. The second parcel uh is essentially what is the rugby and the practice field right up front between
Madison House and Tilman House in front of uh Ranger Stadium. So those two parcels total approximately 10 acres. Graham referenced um the other challenge from the contract purchaser of those 10 acres uh Avalon Bay and their challenge
is that they are claiming uh that they would like to put nearly 500 units there, 492 units across those two parcels. Um and again that would be a potential should we not settle uh should
the settlement negotiations fail with uh Drew. Our plan of c of course would be uh far far less than that. Um but it is certainly fair to say that um any outcome at this point um we'll see some
development on those two parcels um the two the 10acre parcels um and and with a settlement we would hope to see zero development in our ecologically sensitive um even if a court doesn't think it's ecologically sensitive it is
ecologically sensitive uh lands of the Drew forest um including the Heeper and Woods, the kind of wraparound near the president's house and what is now the Zuck Arboritum. Um so you know the council governing body the mayor has
worked diligently. Uh I'm now in my fourth year of council service and I joined that committee with the mayor my very first day and we thought this will be great. We'll a year from now we'll all be celebrating the end of this and
we're you know four years later and the friends of the Drew Forest um have have been along for the for the advocacy that whole time as well. So um we're getting close but we're not quite there yet. Thank you.
>> Thanks Eric. And again, I I want to uh thank Friends of the Drew Forest and um we we are we are getting very close to saving a forest and supporting Drew University. So, we're very optimistic and when the
dust settles and we can share the background behind this, I think you will see what was a process that could not have been possible without a grassroots operation, without support from the county, our state legislators, from the
state, uh from our team here and um commitment to uh private fundraising. It it it will could be an amazing story and uh I'm hoping we'll find it under underneath our Christmas tree. So, I'm going to touch a little bit,
shifting gears here, a little bit of on our open space heritage and as we have uh Councilwoman Austri Bailey in the front row who along with uh Councilman Don Bowen in 2004 or actually prior to that um fought for an open space fund.
Uh and this had to be done by a referendum through uh the residents. They overwhelmingly supported it. And what open space fund on a basic level? Yes, it's another added tax on your tax bill when you look at it, but it's
leveraging funds because without that, we would not be able to get matching or multiple matching funds from the the county or the state. So it supports and the way we set ours up supports land purchase, historic purchase, um preservation. It helps support uh the
saving of the old Masonic lodge and then and recreation including improving the fields. And I just want to talk a little bit about the MRC because a lot of people probably don't know this full story. It was this land where the MRC is where
we have turf fields and a natural preserve trying to uh protect it from deer and invasive species. A great spot that was in the town of Floren Park. Just let that sink in. Open space in the
town of Floren Park zoned for two office buildings. As we have seen with development in neighboring towns, where was that traffic going to end up in that back end? Richdale central and the streets of Madison also building on our aquifer.
So with this open space fund support, tremendous support of the c from the county, this was the largest uh open space grant at the time the county gave and green acres and the creativity of the council at the time. We bought this land in a neighboring town. I I don't know of a town that has done that
anywhere else. And uh for those watching at home, do your research and let me know if there's anyone else. But I it shows the commitment that Madison has had to open space. We then shifted the borders in including the fact that half of the high school property was in
Floren Park at the time. So that land is completely in now in Floren Park. Um, I did have a farm park mayor say we took a raidable away from Farm Park, but Madison is worried about more worried about preserving our aquifer in open
space. We also shifted the border along Park Avenue. So, there's some land that shifted from Madison into uh Floren Park, which is where the supported housing is along um Park Avenue. So, that's now Floren Park used to be Madison. But
just so you know that buying up open space is not an alternative to providing affordable housing. Not surprisingly, Madison is well above what they would say is allocation of um appropriate amount of open space. So the
MRC, which used to be in another town, actually generated an uh affordable housing obligation for us. So, we can't preserve our way out of it, but Madison is committed to balancing our way out of it.
And so, with that shift that story, we're going to bring up our uh planner, Susan Fabati, to get into redevelopment. And just a reminder, I know you're this is information overload. There will not be an exam at the end of this uh evening, but hopefully you'll understand
the complexities. Susan wind my way through the first here. Okay. So, I think I only have three slides and no tarts. So, um I know redevelopment is, you know, an interest issue of interest to many people. You hear the term banded about. You heard it
in the affordable housing discussion as a general term. There's a small R red redevelopment just generally means redeveloping previously developed properties. Um and then there's the big R redevelopment and that is kind of what we're talking about in this section of the slide. Um so at a at a high level um
redevelopment is different than zoning. Redevelopment is is a tool that is allowed to municipalities um by state statute. Um and it allows municipalities to declare certain areas in need of redevelopment. Um there's a whole list of criteria. I think that's on another
slide. Um, I'll get into, but it's it's different from zoning and and in some key ways. Zoning is a pretty blunt tool. Zoning is going to tell you what your setbacks are, what your height is, your your coverage, these basic parameters. Zoning can't tell you how your building
should look. Um, it can't tell you the materials that you can use. All of this is by state statute. So, zoning is really going to be, you know, a barebones sort of development control. So, uh, re the redevelopment tool, which I'll get into more detail on really does actually allow municipalities to have a
lot more control over things like design and those are the things that communities often really care about, right? Um the percentage of open space and what that open space looks like, the building materials, you know, how that blends into the community. All of those things you can get at uh under the redevelopment tool and that also
includes green design. So Madison has been very active in sustainability and incentives. Um and none of that is really uh contemplated under the current zoning laws, but it is allowable to look at for re redevelopment. You know, another aspect of redevelopment is that when you work with a developer through
that process, you can actually get a little lot more give and take than you would under current zoning under the existing zoning laws. Um you can get the developers to pay more of their fair share of the infrastructure costs that are related to their actual development. Um it really is kind of a back and forth
and a negotiating tool that is very different from a traditional zoning uh application where they really just submit to a board either the planning board or the zoning board. You're looking at basic compliance. You the board hears the application. It's an up or down vote. A redevelopment um process
really allows it more for that negotiation aspect. And also as part of that you get potential community benefits um that again are just not allowable under under zoning. Um and that has been seen in Madison through the Rose Hall development that was um maybe your first redevelopment, but
certainly first that I'm aware of um that went through the whole process uh on Kings Road. And as part of that um you got the Madison Art Center on the ground floor as a community benefit as part of that particular development. And then the one Geralda development which
you heard about tonight, there's two components of that. There's the multif family piece which was approved by the planning board last month maybe. Yeah, last month, November. And then the supportive housing piece, uh, which was approved earlier this week. So that property at one Geralda, as part of that
approval, um, they'll actually be donating seven acres of the property that will then be connected to the existing Geralda Farms Preserve owned by the county. So a real public benefit there. So looking at um the process of
redevelopment, it act it involves both the council, the governing body, and the planning board. So typically the the governing body, the burough council would make the decision that an area um needs to be looked at for potential redevelopment. Often that comes from a developer approaching the governing
body, but not always. Um sometimes, many times, the governing body actually initiates the process on their own. There's an area of town that they want to see something happen. Um but that process starts with the governing body. They direct the planning board to undertake a study and that is required
by state statute. the planning board has to go through the process of identifying whether this property meets the set criteria uh to be determined uh an area in need of redevelopment. Um based on the results of that study, the planning board makes a recommendation to the burough council which either accepts or
does not accept that. If they accept it, then the next step is development of a redevelopment plan. Um and that is basically creating the zoning uh or the development regulations for that site. Um it's going to look a little bit like zoning in some ways. It's going to give you your basic parameters, you know, lot
area, building height, setbacks, but it's also likely to get into a lot more detail about what that development looks like. What is your tree canopy requirement? What building materials do you need to be looking at? Are there green incentives and green requirements? All of those things can be looked at.
And those redevelopment plans can be pretty extensive uh depending on the complexity of the project. Once that process has been gone through with the redevelopment plan, it is ultimately approved by the bureau and then the then and only then is the applicant able to then come through with site plan
approval. The goal from the developer standpoint is they would love to come in with a quote as of right development, no variances, they've gone through the redevelopment process, they have a redevelopment plan, they come to the planning board and the planning board says yes. Um my experience is it doesn't happen exactly like that. Um, you know,
I've never seen a planning board that just accepts as complete. Um, there there's always a little bit of give and take. Sometimes the developers find as they go through the process that oops, we're we have to disturb more land than we thought we would. We actually need a little variance that starts to look more
like traditional zoning. They need to get a zoning variance or they need to get a variance from the redevelopment plan. But generally, what the redevelopment plan um contemplates is close to what the actual approved development is going to look like. planning board definitely will have some some input on that and and you've seen
that if any of you have tuned in to the last couple meetings. Um so again, the bureau did previously use this process uh at the Rose Hall development. Um and and I know there's a lot of confusion sometimes and and maybe misunderstanding about redevelopment because I know a lot of people hear the term and they think
urban this is what Jersey City has done and and I've done work in Jersey City. They have 90 something individual redevelopment areas. Oboken. Those were very active communities with redevelopment. But there have been some changes in the law in the last 10 or 15 years that have made a lot of suburban
communities like Madison really take a look at redevelopment. And one of those is that the state actually changed the statute so that um you can undertake redevelopment without condemnation. So without imminent domain. So it gave communities a way to use the tool and
the benefits of that tool without saying we're going to take your property. um you know eminent domain is very controversial uh many communities don't want to do it and but they would like the benefits of the redevelopment tool. So that was a big change and then more recently um kind of in the wake of COVID um the state changed the regulation
again to um allow one of the criteria to be um underutil underutilization or long-term vacancy of commercial uses. So office buildings in particular but also retail. U you know the state looked around and saw that we have a lot of vacant office buildings. they have a lot of commercial bu buildings and and
spaces that are sitting here idle and those are also ripe for redevelopment. So that really opened up a lot more uh types of properties that you might see out here in the suburbs that might be really in need of redevelopment. So it's not just the sort of traditional blight that we have think have been thinking
of. Um it's not the old urban renewal. It's become more of a a nuance tool that more and more communities really are starting to look at. just quickly um redevelopment 101. I was told it's not 101. This is the primer. It's not a college course. Um but all of
this is happening the the big R uh is happening under the local redevelopment uh and housing law from the state. Um and you know why would communities want to undertake this? Well, first and foremost, it's it's often being used to reverse those conditions. So um this is historically thought of as plight, but
as I just mentioned, there's different ways to look at that. So, it's, you know, long-term vacancy, deterioration of housing, but also the commercial and industrial uses. So, the the community sees a problem, the municipality sees a problem, and they want to reverse it, and that's not always possible quickly
or easily under a traditional zoning. Um, it usually involves some type of physical development. Um, the level of that will vary greatly. Um, it may involve new construction, as you've heard tonight, but it doesn't always have to. And sometimes redevelopment can affectuate infrastructure improvements,
new public space, streetscape improvements or all of that as part of new development. It really gives you a lot of um a lot of nuance there. Um redevelopment is critical to uh advancing community goals. So we talked about some of those community givebacks and amenities that Matt Madison has
already gotten and and will be getting as part of future u redevelopment. And then lastly, it reduces red tape. I mean obviously the developers like it. uh it gives them predictability. Um there are some tax advantages that might come into play but don't have to necessarily like
pilots, not a requirement. You'll hear more about pilots later in the evening. Um it's not a requirement to have a pilot for a redevelopment plan, but it's an option. Um so that's very attractive clearly to developers. But from the municipal perspective, redevelopment can also be very attractive because it helps
the bureau be more flexible and nimble and respond to these opportunities as they arise and in a way that you can be more tailored than you might uh under current zoning or under existing zoning options. So, there's a lot of, you know, sort of advantages to redevelopment. Um,
and there's a lot of misunderstanding. Um, this one I'm not going to get into a ton of detail. There's there's some, you know, different categories of redevelopment. There's a lesser category called rehabilitation which is traditionally more about just upgrading existing uh buildings and facilities.
The criteria there are are less. Um the redevelopment process is long and winding but I kind of went through it. Um and then uh benefits of redevelopment planning again it's it's can be very tailored and very location specific. Um
so it really does provide that flexibility and and that nuance. Um it does unlock some financial tools uh like redevelopment area bonds uh pilots um tax tax implications and then it really does allow for that give and take that
negotiation with developers. So an important tool for municipalities but one that um you know has has parameters uh and has a clear set of criteria that should be um obviously followed uh to the letter and I think Madison has done that um in the past and will be in the
future. So happy to answer more questions. I know we want to get to the discussion on pilots. >> Yeah, I just wanted to add in regards to Rose Hall, which is where I live now. Um, for years that was a vacant school. So, and was that's an area of
redevelopment which has now been put in place and it's now a very good thriving community. Um, not a lot of kids have moved in there, you know, so minimal impact on the school system. But I if I recall, we did a lot of work with the
developer to build a property that is in the middle of town that really fits into the look of the town. You know, if you look at the building on the side, it's that curved structure. It looks like the James building. So, to Madison's credit at the time, because I remember I was on the subcommittee then, um, that property
has turned out very well for the town. There's been a big tax benefit for us as well. >> I believe Jim's going to give some more detail on that minutes. So would you mind just going back to slide 47, the long winding road? Yeah, that one. Um I I I think it's uh
important >> part of the arrow. I think it's uh important to note that in nearly all of these steps as the governing body is directing the planning board and adopting that resolution to direct the
planning board uh to do the study as the study is conducted and presented to the planning board and so on and so forth. At each of these steps there's an opportunity for public input and public comment and those documents are shared. I think many times we get to the end
which is the site plan approval with the planning board and that's where everyone starts talking about it uh publicly uh or or the community really gets their uh gets the ground swell around it. Um and at that point a lot of the things have
been set because of this long winding road. Um if you watch the drawer the one uh hearing many times the response from the applicant was we're following what's in
the uh redevelopment plan. So the planning board site plan hearing is sort of the last step and the last opportunity but certainly not the only and first opportunity. So >> thanks Susan. So
I just want to talk through a scenario that is probably on a lot of people's minds and I think about a lot. What's the downside of in instead of doing a redevelopment process for say Geraldo one or three if Madison just said we
like having these commercial ratables here, we want them to stay as they are. We like things the way we have them. Uh we're going to wait for them to be leased up again. we're going to tell the building owner, upgrade your building, try harder, lower your rents. What's the
downside of just waiting it out? What could happen? >> The burrow has very little control over what happens then. And I think you heard the burough tried, you all tried at all to farms to unlock potential, allow more uses, be proactive, and that's usually the first step, right? The the municipality wants to look at the
existing zoning. Can we be more flexible? Can we open up potential? Can we try to read the market uses that are in demand out there? Um and and the bureau tried, but I think you saw the the results of that, it's really difficult to predict what uh decision makers are going to be doing. Um and
when you have these market forces, I mean, some of the numbers that you saw were shocking how much the market changed in a pretty short amount of time. And it wasn't just here, it was everywhere in Northern New Jersey and and the region and even the nation. So to go up against all those factors and
think that this property is going to be unique, this building if we just wait long enough, if they just spiff it up a little bit, it will change. It's a it's a really uphill battle, I think. >> And so what's the what's the risk of just waiting? >> Well, the risk I think you saw the risk
is the property continues to decline in value. It continues to contribute less and less to uh to your ratables. Um, and you might see things like long term if it's a building sits empty for five years, the building literally starts to deteriorate. It starts to become a
nuisance, you know, and true blight. Um, that we've all heard about what that looks like. Um, it just is it becomes an increasingly negative asset, not even a word, but uh phrase, but a a negative uh feature of your community and can start to drag around the properties around it
too, right? it starts to, you know, exude some some weakness that can start to pull down neighboring properties. >> And in the context of our affordable housing obligation, what is the risk or exposure? >> Yes. Well, Natie, what you're getting at now, the risk is that um you know that is a property that is considered should
be considered or could be considered likely to redevelop, right? It's it's vacant. It's been sitting there and therefore folks like Fairshair Housing Center are going to be looking at that land and saying this should be contributing to your affordable housing obligation. this is not being used
actively for commercial use. It's been sitting there vacant. You haven't taken action. Therefore, you need to start looking at this and you may be forced to look at it uh to accommodate your affordable housing oper. So, that is a real risk. >> Yeah. I think there's also maybe some case law of towns that never change your
zoning and they were taken to court. The zoning is no real no longer realistic, right? >> You you you can't force this obsolete zoning obsolete zone on our property. And so that's another exposure. >> So you could be looking at, you know, potential litigation from the owner who might start to say things like, "You're
taking my property because you're not letting me do things under this obsolete zoning." And then you might start to see litigation from, you know, challenges on affordable housing as well. And in in those challenges, what we've seen of of course around the state, not to our challenges so much, but what we've seen
is particularly in round round three is that judges tend to default to yet yes to affordable housing, right? So, if a developer comes in, no matter how quote unquote unreasonable the number is, um,
or what the municipality may think is not good planning, um, you could just get it a judgment against you and and then you lose all control, right? You don't have the ability to do all of the
things through the redevelopment process. It's just a for right go build by right go build all you want and what you said you wanted to do. No design specs, no green incentives, no nothing. Just you want to build 695 units there,
go ahead. Um and and we've seen that happen throughout the state and in in challenges >> and and the other thing is they don't care about number of school children it generates traffic all these things cannot be considered in that case builder. So I think the list of of
municipalities who have successfully challenged their affordable housing obligations is very very very short. I'd be hardressed to think of a few examples. >> I think it's important with the affordable but also there's a financial impact as well as that building sits vacant and it's taxed at value X. Now
next year it value is going to go down. So that landlord's going to say I want a tax refund because it's you're >> okay that's coming traction. Okay I'll let it go. a segue. >> That was my sweet spot. >> So, so I I have heard through talking to
people in town, I don't talk too much, but I don't Good listen. So, I have heard the concern that everybody had about the impact of making 297 housing units now on the property in L of what it was. So, I don't know how
many of you lived here before COVID when the buildings were full. a 220,000 foot office building probably held 1500 employees. And how did they get to work every day? They came up Madison Avenue, Park Avenue. They came up Main Street every day. Probably around the same time
when we all had a different work lifestyle. And they may have shopped in the burrow. I don't know if they all came to the burrow to eat or to shop. And then at the end of the day between 4 and six, the traffic was bad again. And during the day, they used our services
by flushing the toilets and using the water, using electricity, which we did like because we sold them electricity. So that did help some of the BOR's revenue. But at the end of the day, the buildings were occupied with more people than would be with a 290 residential
unit. Most of the apartments in there are going to be one or two-bedroom apartments, not many three-bedroom apartments, which maybe would entice more of a family to live there. So, you could have potentially 600 people living in the building that
probably won't all come and go at the same time during the day. They are going to use our our services, water, they're going to use our electricity, uh which is okay because that's, you know, a service we can provide. it's not increasing the amount of people there all day long. Uh and like we've been
saying, if we have an empty building there, that's not really good for the community at all. So now we could potentially have people who will live there and over the course of the week, they'll be using the burrow for shopping. They'll be using the burrow
for our public facilities. um and in a positive way because hopefully they'll connect with the town in l of people who are just coming every day for work and not really contributing as much and we will get some tax dollars back too. That's kind of important, but it's it's
more important to see the the property utilized. It'll never go back to where it was when Mrs. Dodge had her estate there. I was not here when that was like that. I know the mayor probably ran around inside there. >> I used to have dinner there. >> A little older than me. Okay. So, so
that's something too that is a concern in the community and and if you think I'm right with what I'm saying that's I want to make that clear to everybody that we're not trying to increase the density per se daily or the burden on the burrow and and if they need upgrades
the way we're structuring it is the developer is going to pay for part of the upgrades to bring sewer and water and whatever else they might need in addition that what's already there and they're not going to increase the footpint either. here very much, right? At least not in Gerald the one
>> from what I recall hearing about it. So that's my two cents. >> Thank you. >> Before we shift to uh pilots and property taxes, bringing Jim back up here, there has been some comments about but there's some new office buildings being built. Why can't we wait for our
offices buildings to turn around? Um, downtown Marstown, Westfield has some proposed think about Santa Fe. They they could have rented at Geral or built a new building and what they wanted to do is be next to a train station even
though they're not too far from a train station in Madison, but they wanted next door. They wanted to be across the street from restaurants. They wanted to be in the center of town. That is what's being developed right now. um we draw the model is alive but not as
live as well as it used to be and so that's again a reason why we looked at this redevelopment Jim round two with uh pilots and property taxes >> mayor I printed out the little slide that had all the questions we've answered a lot
of them >> um one that I I want to just reiterate is I think everybody knows this isn't just a Madison thing ac behind behind the roller skating rink in Floren Park at the bottom of Waung when you're heading down towards uh Pascarel
Brothers. Um there's that huge development. Uh there's there's development all at the Ivy. There's development all over the place. >> The shop right across the street from the shop. >> Across the street from the shop, right, the old Charlie 50ard line for the people here who've been here for a while. The old 50ard line, Charlie
Browns. All of these places are being developed because the towns are being put in this position due to the legislation and the courts. going to talk a few minutes about pilots's property taxes and impact on the schools. So, a pilot is a new revenue stream that
reduces reliance on property taxes. New property tax rateables um do not generate new income for schools or the bureau. We're going to talk about how we fully fund the bur the schools in a minute, but they help spread the cost of providing municipal services among all taxpayers. Um to make things simple,
we've had had this for years. This uh graphic um just talks more in general about development. Um there's four houses that are paying $10 in taxes and a vacant lot that's paying $5. The total taxes in 2025 is $45. Now that and and
think of that vacant lot as being a an office building that's that's low producing office building. a new home or a nice development goes in there and uh that t the taxes on that go up and because of that the taxes for the entire
town can go from 45 to $48 but the actual taxes on the homes go down as I said this happened in reverse when the office market crashed we all actually started paying more you didn't see it but that's what happened three and Geralda 1 are currently paying
about $650,000 in property taxes the new development ments will pay well over $2 million in pilot and property taxes. The breakdown of property taxes, and we see this on the little pie chart that we put every year in town that I'll show in
a minute, is the schools get 63 um cents of every property tax dollar. Madison gets 21 cents, the county gets 15 cents. With a pilot or payment in lie of tax, the bureau of Madison gets 95%. both scenarios, the school um funding is
the same and it's fully funded. Um currently the bureau, and we'll use the burrow in quotes and say that's the burrow and the board of education get 84 um40 cents if we combine the first two sections. Um with a pilot, we actually
get more. We get 95% or 95 cents on the dollar. So it's a a better deal for the bureau in that regard. Geralda one uh um paid $495,000 in property taxes in 2025. Madison board of ed and the bureau
received $418,000 of that. The new development will pay at least $1.2 million. Madison will Madison will get $1,140,000 for that. That's significant. That's really tax savings for you and everyone else. Rose Hall, where Bob lives and has
been talked about multiple times here, the old Green Village Road School, um, paid over 1.1 million in pilot and property tax revenue in 2025. The new developments that have pilot payments still pay property taxes on the
land. So, a big portion of that $1.1 million is the land. Um, over at uh, Rose Hall. Rose Hall is now the third highest tax payer in the burrow of Madison. And if
we looked at it and compared the per unit cost that an apartment in that unit pays versus General Wayne or some of the other apartment buildings, um it's significantly more. As mentioned before, um it was a board
of ed property and was paying nothing. So we went from zero to $1.1 million. that represented tax relief for you and I. And Rose Hall is one of the main reasons why the bureau was able to the bureau was able to keep our annual tax
increases to 1 point 1.4% per year over the last 11 years. Taxes on that average home went from 11,000 to 15,000. Burough portion only went up 15.6%
over 11 years only 15.6% 6% because Rose Hall revenue gave us tax relief. Financially, a pilot has zero impact on the school budget or how much money they receive. The board of education is
guaranteed to receive 100% of its budgetary needs from the bureau. A property changing from regular taxation to pilot does not affect the board of ed budget. Um, whatever the school needs, they receive. It It's kind of interesting. They send us a sheet of
paper and they send it electronically. Here's how much we passed our budget for. This is what we need. We send it to the county and that becomes your tax bill. It's it's really that simple. Um the schools are likewise not harmed even if municipal revenues pilot or otherwise
drop or municipal costs increase. Every cent required to fund the approved school budget is sent to them regardless of what the municipality collects. Um, in terms of enrollment, we spoke to the board of education and they gave us
some enrollment figures. Mayor, I think you said to me the other day, when you went to the high school, there were 1,200 students there. >> When I went there, there were a thousand students. What are there now? About >> 800, >> 800, 600, 7 or 800 students. Anyway, and
it's bigger. We didn't have the Alice Pearlaw wing or anything, but uh the school enrollment is actually down significantly since 2017 from 2,61 students to 2389 students.
So over crowding in the schools um we don't think is going to be any sort of negative impact. Um apartment complexes generate very few students. where Bob lives over at Rose Hall. Only four students come from the 135 units that
are there. Imagine Geralda one, the acreage over there could be developed to maybe up to a 100 homes, McMansions we'll call them. Those homes would certainly have generated way more than four students or five or six students. So the 37 and so
so it's important to realize the type of development that's being advocated here by the governing body and the planners. um should not generate nearly the impact on the schools as if the developer came in and said, "I want to build homes."
The Geralda one has 37 units of affordable housing um that will service adults through um a special kind of um program called supportive housing. So that will not generate any school age children.
>> And I think that's it. Mayor Before we get to uh Q&A, just a quick little side story to lighten things up for a second because I've seen uh people on information overload, but Jim talked about
Connleyville. As many of you know, I'm from a big family, middle child of 11. So when I grew up, instead of playing house, we actually played town with the younger half of the kids. And believe it or not, I was the mayor of Connley Town and and I even have a little thing
hanging in my office because not only was the mayor, I controlled the press. So there we go. So So there So Connie Connleyville goes way back. But just a quick aside, um, one thing I want to uh
talk about before we get to Q&A is uh a Senate bill that has been proposed uh S 4736. And I this not only I I want to impress upon the exposure of this bill, but what we have to deal with at the
local level. The ink is barely dry on our round four plan. And already there's a potential for the rules to change. And basically it sounds like a a nice bill to permit nonprofits
to develop on their property. uh churches, other nonprofits, churches, schools, um could be YMCA's, anything to develop. >> Uh and it allows them to circumvent the
local zoning. Uh and this is things that are proposed. It would automat automatically allow buildings one story higher than the maximum allowed density of 40 units per acre.
And one of the ways it's being put out there is it's it's saying it's in God's backyard allowing churches to provide affordable housing. But the reality is it's proposed to be 20% affordable. And
as I said uh recently at the League of Municipalities, I think if God allowed development in his backyard, and I haven't talked to him, but if he allowed it, I think he would want a whole lot more than 20%. So this is not about providing affordable housing. It is
about providing an opportunity for developers to come in the back door. Um these units would be over and above what we already discussed. And it even says in the bill that the property may be taxexempt
as it would be today. and and this would be even though it is clearly generating millions for a developer. The reason I tell you this again is to reinforce what this body has to deal with, what towns across the state have to deal with, and this is
coming from someone that's passionate about affordable housing. As I've often said, we should do it as a moral obligation. Your homework assignment, if you take it on, is to reach out to state senators and share your thoughts about this bill. It is sponsored by uh Senator Troy
Singleton. We did have a good conversation the other day. He understands some of the uh implications with it, but I think he needs to hear from more. You can teach reach out to Senator Buco, but he spoke at this council meeting prior and he certainly is um on board and uh not going with
this board. You can reach out to uh Friends of the Drew Forest to their website where you can find more information on how you can make a difference. But this is clearly something that >> you see up at night. I don't like that. >> We already voted, mayor, as a burrow, as
a >> governor. We did pass a resolution set to oppose this bill, >> right? >> Mayor, before you just on that density, you know, we've thrown a lot of numbers around, but and obviously not all of these uh not all of these sites are
currently held by a nonprofit, so this bill wouldn't necessarily uh apply to them. But I do think it's uh worth reinforcing that I'll just go through these three sites. At 40 units an acre,
the Deralda one site would be 964 units. Uh 21 acres at Deralda 3 could be 845 units. the 10 acres at um the Drew parcels B
and C could be um could be 400 units uh which admittedly is less than the challenger has come in with. Um and the Drew forest uh of 53 acres could be 2100
dwelling units which Ry check me on this. We have about 5,100 dwelling units in the burrow right now. Is that right? Somewhere in that neck of the woods. >> Yeah. So just that one one parcel which
is admittedly a very large parcel um could dramatically change the landscape. So it's really important that you know we are all taking action uh at the uh governing body level to interact with the state and and fight this. But as the mayor mentioned, the friends of the Drew
Forest have a great set of resources on their website and it can't come soon enough because it is literally happening now in the lane duck session um potentially before the new administration comes in. So
this is like the hair on fire moment. >> So that um segus nicely into one of the qualifiers I meant to say at the beginning. I'll say this before we get to our Q&A is when you leave here in a little bit, you may not like what you heard you uh but we hope you leave here
understanding the challenges we have and what we're working on together as a burrow. So, thank you again for coming. So, we'll go into Q&A. Um and again, a re as a reminder what the this process is we will have a comment period. So if you come up to ask
a question and I've have a couple written ones here also you come up to ask a question no commas no semicolons ask a question uh we will capture it uh I ask team on the side here try try to capture it as I pointed out that if I was good at taking
notes I would have gotten c through college in less than 10 years uh but we'll capture them all our professionals will uh answer the ones that are appropriate for them and others will answer also as appropriate Um so if anyone has a has questions again
there'll be a comment period next. You have a question please step up to the lect turn state your name and ask your question. We will capture it and at the end of the the question period we'll go into answers. Anyone with a question please step forward or I'll buy a little time and uh we'll
go to our grab bag. Uh how is vacant land defined? This is sounds like a Graham question. Do you have the wireless? >> Um, this is actually a very good question in the context of the amended
fair housing act. Um, it is a little bit of a nuanced answer. Um in prior rounds, the um third round rules for the affordable for uh developed by KOA and the the prior round regulations for KA defined vacant land to include um
underutilized or vacant undeveloped properties. Um that's kind of a flexible definition where that could have captured parcels that are now likely to redevelop under the new amended fair housing act regulations. Um, so it's been a little bit of a a challenge in
delineating that process now in the fourth round given that we don't have fourth round rules. We're operating under prior round rules. But the short answer is that vacant land is um land that is uh available uh not encumbered by environmental constraints and able to be uh developed in due course.
>> And what we in our original presentation we actually had a list of those properties. We did not present it tonight because it was already shared before and it was a little confusing because some people said, "Oh, wait. You're going to work develop on that property." No, it's vacant. It's part of our calculation. It is not part of our
solution. Now, we'll capture questions and uh we'll answer them all at once. State your name and your question. >> Hey everyone, I have four questions. Is that okay? >> That's you're you're I should have said you're allowed multiple questions. Just be uh comments you hold off.
>> Perfect. Christina Pendar. Um, my first question is is I know that we talked about three Deralda and kind of how we should all be intervening earlier in the process. I'm just curious where we are in that process specifically for that property. >> My second question is um I know we had talked about the court mandated 80%
market rate and 20% affordable. I had seen that in Asbury Park they recently built a development that's 50% affordable. So, I'm curious if there's any like do we as a town have a say in can we bump up like the percentage of affordable housing units in the developments. My third question is um is
there a way and I think this was talked about on the BOE land and on like town owned land building like 100% affordable housing but is there other options in which we work as a town to build our affordable housing ourselves like we did on Walnut or community place and is
there other opportunities for that so we can build 100% affordable housing instead of the 2080 model and then um I know with the one deralda application I'm curious as to why we granted a subdivision because I feel like during I was part of the planning board meetings and thank you everyone for talking and
listening to my questions during those process. Um I felt like it made it more difficult to strengthen either applications. So I'm curious about like what is the utility of subdividing a plot? Um and then my final question is is since the Madison A portion of Deralda Farms will like overwhelmingly
be residential at this point, is there a way in which we can make that feel more like a community in a neighborhood than just like separate buildings that happen to all be housing? Um, and just like thinking about how can we plan that process so it becomes more of like an integrated part of the town versus this like isolated apartment
buildings that are kind of on the edge of town. Thank you and thank you everyone for your time. >> Anyone else with questions? Please step forward. >> So your name? Hi, Dominique uh Peekmeyer.
Um I actually just want to know so I really am concerned about the nature of these developments, how large they're going to be. I live in a neighborhood that's right on Madison A right by Geralda Farms and then Drew and that's going to
be a very different feel and very hightraic area. And I would like to know how can we help you in this endeavor? like I feel like we need more of a partnership here and I'm hearing that you guys are doing the best you can with a very difficult sandwich shall we say
and I would just like to know like besides like writing the senators or you know whatever about this particular bill how can we help and become more involved and maybe more vocal to try to better
control what's coming in that's Chris Kellogg, three Walnut Street. Um, and just to follow up on on that question, um, how can we help? Um, I really feel like this town is full of all kinds of experts, uh, real estate
architects, attorneys for, um, land use, etc., etc., that all could contribute in some way. Eric mentioned the possibility of, you know, being involved earlier in the process. All the flurry of the engagement at the planning board um seemed to bring a lot of people out, but
it was sort of sort of a done deed already. So, how can we in the town and and believe me there's a lot of talent in this town and this should be a community effort not a effort only by the burough which is doing its job and working really hard but let's just see
if we can get the rest of the community engaged earlier so some of these standards could be set up. So that's one one obvious good question is how can we be engaged more with the community. The second one is most housing developments in many towns actually prohibit three-bedroom apartments.
So, are we doing that? And do we really want to limit and isn't that why we have all this information that that the towns are or our town is not generating more um students? So, can we um allow some
three-bedroom apartments? Do we want families? I mean, it's almost suicidal for a community to say we're not going to have families anymore because it's going to make it's going to crowd our schools out. So, can we ask for three-bedroom apartments as well? That's it.
>> Good evening. Mark Talage, 8 Ross Court. Uh I'd like to know how far down the line we are in this proposal uh with the Drew B and C because I feel like um I've been in the dark for a long time and just really has come to to light uh very
recently because I I do think there are other um options that could be considered. Um and so I'd like to know how far are we really locked into that uh at this point and I we'll come back with comments later. Thank you.
Um, I'm Carol Cowan from Christina Court and while I'm concerned and very interested obviously in all the building, I think my question comes from a slightly different perspective. I mean, Madison as well as all the towns around us have these obligations. We've seen units and units going up 300 here,
whatever. And I don't know if you drive to Chadam in the morning or somewhere, but the traffic has become a nightmare morning to evening. And I question what not only Madison but anything in conjunction with our neighboring towns
um the infrastructure requirements, the sufficiency of police, the sufficiency of fire, the sufficiency of medical care and hospitals, the hospitals, marsh towns overcrowded, uh supermarkets, roadways, all those things that contribute to an
individual's quality of life within their community. Thank you very much. Any other questions? >> Great session. Um my my question is pro is process-wise. Um Eric talked about the 208 number for round four. Um and we
relied on the vacant lot adjustment to bring that down, but that ceiling was still in place. The question I had as I was sort of taking it in months ago when you presented it was, you know, a lot of towns actually challenged their sort of their starting number, the 208, and they try to bring the 208 down to 100 and then apply a vacant lot. It's not clear
to me why we haven't tried that, right? So, we've relied on vacant lot, you know, it got blown out with round three. So, you know, I would just love to hear you guys talk about that. Bob Madara, Wayne Boulevard.
Uh, and a couple of questions. Uh, there's talk about the Avon Bay and buildings they were going to build, but I didn't hear any mention of how high these buildings would be. Does anybody know? We'll capture that
question. >> Okay. Uh also the uh I I think if I understood the woman correctly, the courts don't want to know about the effect of redevelopment on traffic.
I mean it I live in an area where you can only get out by Park Avenue or by Ridgedale Avenue and they are getting worse and worse and worse. I mean, I actually take different routes at different times of the day because of
the traffic. Um, also, has anybody looked at the question of why so many kids aren't going to the public schools now? And I've heard this from teachers, uh, one in particular in in, uh, in the high school talked about
how the numbers were going down. I was amazed. I couldn't believe that. This year my grandson played on the freshman football team. We're only 15 kids. Whole town. >> Yeah. Try to try to just >> Okay. Well, maybe what we need are we
considering that to try and get more people to go to the schools or just, you know, find out what the reasons are that they're avoiding the schools. Um, and with the affordable housing finally,
how much does that affect our taxes or does it affect our taxes? Okay, that's it for now. >> Thank you. >> Any other questions? >> Lyn Norris, 14 Niles Avenue. Um, a
question about the redevelopment and the effect that it has and I'm not sure I understood you whether that gives the town some control over the kind of building that gets done within the town that affects the number of units that
we're able to use and how we're able to use them. I'm just curious about that because there are some European cities that have done things related more to elder care um and providing housing in those situations and I'm just wondering if that's something that might be a
consideration down the road avenue um going bankrupt. So is that on the table to figure out when that entire complex is empty?
Any other any other questions? >> Hi everyone. Michael Nto uh Gibbons Place. Um I've heard a lot of everyone talking about how we're complying to the numbers of affordable housing that we're told we need to build. But to me, the
biggest concern I have is the fact that the 20 it's the 20% ratio. And I thought it was actually 15% for rentals. I thought it was 15% rentals, 20% for purchases. But to me, I'm a lot more concerned about the 80% of the people that are going to be moving here as a
result of the affordable housing. Um I read an article recently saying that um Harding is doing all affordable housing. they're financing and they're they're building it themselves. Uh I just think we need to look for solutions where we're able to satisfy our obligation for affordable housing um and not allow all
these additional units to come in here that have absolutely nothing to do with affordable housing. I know it's not an easy thing to solve for, but that's what we need. >> Good question. Y >> that's my question. >> Hi, my name is Mike Dylan. I live at 17 Madison Avenue, apartment 65. Um, my
question is actually about the makeup of these units that are being proposed. Are they all rental units or are any of these properties that are potentially being developed going to be lots that are available for sale? Because Madison right now has very few houses that do
come up for sale. Makes it hard to buy a house in Madison these days. Any other questions? Seeing none, we close the question period and now we'll shift into the answer period. And uh
let's uh some of these we may uh capture as we uh mult capture multiple questions um as we go forward. But um uh where are we on the three Geralda process?
Um hey maybe >> hi we we've engaged our planner who's in the process of preparing a redevelopment plan for the project. Uh when it's prepared it will be the subject of a public hearing at the planning board and then a vote uh in public by the burough
council. So we're probably at least I'm going to say 30 days away from that process being completed. >> And as uh Councilman mentioned before there will be multiple opportunities. Step one is the official declaration of uh area of the redevelopment study the
uh the plan. So when the plan comes out, this kind of incorporates the expertise on um in the community. This is in the hands of uh planning board professionals, but our expertise, get involved early on, give your feedback so
we can tweak it and make sure you uh have track the meetings so you can give your feedback as we go along. >> So the planning board has done the study. Well, we've asked for the study. The study is done, right? and um the um
the and the declaration has been done uh of an area need of redevelopment. So, we're now actually at the most probably important inflection point for community input, which will be when we publish the
uh plan. And that plan will have things like materials and setbacks and all the requirements. um that will have a hearing at the planning board and it will also have to be adopted here. Um so that's an
opportunity uh for folks to get and all of those documents will be posted uh prior to the meetings. So didn't pass by things there. >> Okay. Um there was a question about can
the percent be uh bumped up and there was also a question we had oh I thought one category is 15% another is 20%. Madison is it's 20% across the board inclusionary and across the town. Uh that's not what you see in in many towns
but that's what we have done. Uh for example, um five years ago maybe the uh corner of um Kings Road and Division was um developed. There's a a large single family home there, large property.
There's now five uh or six uh what looked like six homes there, but there's actually seven uh because there's five market rate and there's one that is a duplex. And so even at that level they have to provide if someone develops uh
less than five they might they might end up paying into our trust fund to support other uh affordable housing throughout the town. The um and can it be bumped up? It certainly uh can be. Um the development at Madison Mall Apartments
was actually 25%. Uh and was a negotiation with them. They're using some of the original buildings for to meet their obligation. And so for that we moved it up from 20% to 25%. So that gave us more units
towards our obligations. Anything else that we need to um question was you know can we uh look at um more town land as we did on uh Walnut Street? that is always an option
if we're doing a 100% um affordable that still is a a challenge to um line up the tax credits the developer and um and and do it. We cannot convert parkland as I said before. So the limitations of town land that's ava available is limited but we
will continue to look look at that as an option >> and this is really quick back of the slides uh math here um but for our round four 63 unit obligation if we spent
about $300,000 a unit and I think maybe that's what we did what they ended up being at the forum with all of our um that's $18.9 million um And then if we were to have to acquire land uh for you
know like go out and buy one of the draw the lots or whatever um to get it that's probably you know maybe we get it for eight but my guess is if we're sniffing around and they know they got us on the hook that it's probably more than that. So you
know that would all be a tax taxpayer funded um obligation. So, um it's it's not that we can't, but it's also a balancing act of um you know, if you spread that out over 10 years, it's still, you know, maybe a
million dollars a year and or more, a million or two, depending on how the math works. So, >> and as we also discussed, the the other challenge we're dealing with is evaluating of draw. So if we did 100% that would not help with the tax burden
that we're trying to ease with each shift through all the >> So if it's a million or two million a year um right now our like capital projects budget in any given year is somewhere in the neighborhood of three million three and a half million. Um so
that you know if you compare that to all the capital work we do the roads the all the improvements and you know add another 30 or 40% to that a year just to do affordable housing. That's the impact. Again not saying one way or the
other if that's the the route but it would definitely be a financial impact. >> And we had um draw to one was actually subdivided. So the redevelopment plan called for the development of the apartments and then
also supportive housing. It was it's being provided by two different developers. And so as far as the best way to uh deliver on the um the goal of redevelopment plan was to create the subdivision and hence the two separate
applications >> and also allow which is very key. So it actually is a uh So that also includes the uh open space donation, seven acres we talked about before in the rear. So it's actually a three lot subdivision. Keep in mind um
and I could be wrong, but I don't think any developments along Park Avenue in a neighboring town include any land donations. um transition of uh Geralda. I might not have captured the
>> is that the the maybe the how do you build community within Geralda? >> Thank you for Yeah, if I knew someone could take better notes than I would. >> Um >> um they are moving for one, they're moving into Madison. Madison is a very community uh centric town. Yes, it's
going to be a in a way a separate neighborhood. They will have direct access to the walking trails. they'll be your neighbors. Um, we'll be showing up at events. U any other thoughts on how you know we certainly do our usual welcome? >> I I I think one of the things that is
particularly unique about DALA that might be different than other developments that might happen along the way is that the Draw Farms uh corporate park and the Draw the Farms it's a campus, right? So, it's designed to be a
little bit of an enclave. Um, and they actually have their own common space association. Um, which currently all the commercial and office use tenants are part of. and that the owners of um the two residential
developments um or the individual owners depending on the the resolution of Gerald the three will be or the HOA for for these places will be part of that common space association. So I would suspect, not that this governing body
has a whole lot to do with it, but I would suspect that they will start pulling on the common space association, which is essentially the corporate HOA at draw the farms to say, "Hey, we would like a path or a sidewalk that goes down
Dodge Drive that does this or better in connectivity." And certainly we would be there to support those activities. Um, but by the nature of that, it's not just like it sits on the side of a Madison owned road. Dodge Drive is a private road. It will continue to be a private
road. Um, but you know, definitely we don't we don't want those people to feel like, oh, they're in this other location. Um, but I think they'll have their other outlets as well through the Common Space Association. >> Thank you.
um kind of uh put next two questions together is how how can we help and how can we engage the expertise in community. Um I think first of all being >> being here tonight is a big part of uh how you can help because educating understanding the process is very
important. Um you know creating a separate committee to look at these is probably uh not the most efficient way to approach it. You have a planning board, you have the elected bodies to work on that. But being keeping track and we will, you know, these are all going to be advertised meetings. When we
come up with the red redevelopment plan, make sure you speak up at these meetings to share your input. Um, so that when it comes to site plan, you understand what has been approved. And so ideas such as design and all that will be dis discussed during the redevelopment plan
introduction. Any other thoughts, Rachel? I guess I'll mention that all the elected officials here tonight are volunteers. Every member of the planning board, same professionals are volunteers. Same for zoning. We could use new volunteers on parks
advisory. There's many committees and commissions and boards that'll be looking for volunteers in the new year. Uh you can fill out a form, a citizen leadership form, and submit it to the mayor. Please step up and get involved. People work really hard to make this sound great for all of us and we are
always looking for new volunteers with great ideas. >> You go to Rosenet, there's a uh I think it's on the top that says how to and you'll see how to get involved. Click on that. That'll link you to the citizen leadership form. Certainly take advantage of that. And I think mayor,
can we make a commitment that the meeting, the council meeting and the planning board meetings that the redevelopment plan for draw the three comes up that we make special notation on our social media platforms for that, not just our general, >> you know, dig in the agenda for it,
>> right? >> Yeah. There's a legal obligation as far as the typical advertising and certainly notifying those within 200 feet, but to uh go a step further. So, I think that's a very good point. So, we will uh make sure that happens. Uh there was a question about uh
three-bedroom ban. Um and maybe I'll throw this to the uh planners on answering it, but just related to affordable housing. There is a requirement for affordable housing on the bedroom mix and so we have to adhere to that and uh pass over the microphone there.
>> Yeah, just to reiterate, there are strict bedroom mix requirements. So there's a certain percentage of units in affordable housing that have to be threebedrooms which is why you often see in an inclusionary development that those uh the only three-bedroom units are the affordable units. Um so that's on the affordable housing side. I think
the question also was maybe interested in can we get more three-bedroom units. Um apart from the affordable component that really is a market driven question and I think current in the current market the developers tend to want to build ones and twos and even in some markets studios. So, they're just not
generally building threebedrooms except in, you know, very specific situations. The affordable housing obviously, but also some some units that are geared toward, you know, downsizing seniors who want a lot of bedrooms for grandchildren, I guess. Um, so the market's just not building those uh
unless they're generally required to. >> Next question is, how far along are Drew, B, and C? You kind of heard some of the uh things that could happen with areas B and C. Um there's a scenario which uh we are very optimistic with which is we settle with Drew University
which will allow development on those two sites. Um that includes redevelopment. So we've already had discussions about the design element for building on the campus. These are should look like buildings that complement what's at Drew University for example.
There's the other angle if we don't settle and that is the wild card of a builder's remedy which is uh you know hopefully that will not happen but they've said these are surplus lands and should be available for development. Yeah. And and should should we settle or
I I'll go ahead and be optimistic. When we settle, um part of that settlement will include um the fact that those 10 acres will be designated as areas in need of redevelopment. Um because this is a court settlement, there will be
some things uh driven by the settlement itself um that will be enforced by the court. But there will be um the same public process um for the what we call parcels B and C uh redevelopment plans
that will go through a similar public process um for input uh and so on and so forth. Again, it might be slightly different and slightly more constrained uh because of the nature of the the litigation. Um but
as standard that process would still exist. >> This is uh maybe goes without saying, but this has always been an effort with two goals. One to preserve the Drew forest and one to preserve Drew University.
And we want the university to survive and thrive. And part of the way that we can ensure that the forest remains undeveloped is by permitting with certain controls development on other parcels that are
more suitable for development >> and infusing the university with much needed capital along the way. Um so there's kind of the double-edged sword. Um, which goes to the other question which was what about the viability of Drew University? It is an amazing
university and a great town uh train ride away from the world. It's it's got a great reputation. Um, and working with them will shore them up just as uh Eric mentioned. Um, and we're certainly
by working with them, we want to make sure we're not worried about 160 acres. So, this is our our team work with Drew. Keep them keep them going. They've, as I pointed out multiple times, they were incorporated before the Burrow of
Madison was incorporated. Um, traffic infrastructure um, and and other, uh, related things. Planners, do you want to handle that first or >> I I can handle this. I think I believe the the question that I heard related to
traffic was with respect to how the the courts and the process and the affordable housing dispute resolution program view those things. Um and I want just want to refer back to the information that I shared regarding the site suitability criteria um which is established in NJAC uh 593-1.3.
um that is the uh site suitability criteria that is set forth within the administrative code that outlines how sites are to be evaluated for their provision of affordable housing. Um and it is very clear that uh the scope of uh infrastructure impacts uh with respect
to a site's developability is really just limited to water and sewer infrastructure. It does not talk about traffic. It does not talk about um other associated impacts. Um that's not to say that those projects or those sites will not have to make those considerations with respect to traffic. Um traffic
impact analyses are often part of site plan submissions and planning board processes. So those things will be evaluated at that phase. Um but with respect to affordable housing and identifying sites and doing the housing element fair share plan process um
traffic and those associated impacts are not to be considered at that point. It's really just with respect to water and sewer provision as uh as set forth in this administrative code section. >> Um next question was uh so so we accepted our 209 number and didn't challenge that
but said we would adjusted by vacant land adjustment. Um why didn't we challenge that number? Um I think for one we recognize it was a valid in a way a valid number but as a vacant land adjustment town we could
justify the smaller number. I don't think we could have justified reducing the 209 as well as we could adjust the vacant land. And if I could just anecdotally share, you know, I work in a number of towns in supporting affordable housing planning processes, uh, including a number that
did make challenges to numbers and those challenges in most cases were not upheld. They they wound up having more than they had challenge then reduced down to. So, uh, many were not successful, I can say. >> And Graham, how did our New Jersey mandated number compare in terms of how
other towns did with the number the DCA handed down to them? uh in other communities, similar communities in this immediate area, this is a lower number, I would say, uh re relative to other communities that I've been working in within the immediate area. >> Can you speak about presumption of validity
with regard to using the DCA's number? >> Uh yes. Um, you know, I think that um the uh you know, by by leveraging the DPCA's number, it it empowered the bureau to take a very strong position in withstanding any challenge because uh no
party could really challenge the number that was prescribed by the Department of Community Affairs. Um and in further into this, I just want to note uh based on the methodology that's outlined within the amended fair housing act, the number is very much set forth through a mathematical process. Um you know, there's really not much to it. Uh it
contains three components. A non-residential valuation factor, a land capacity factor, um and then um oh god, I'm like a third factor. >> I apologize, but there's components to it. So it's descriptive, >> which is why the challenges didn't
really pan out, right? Because there's three variables in the equation and you know, unless you're literally challenging the validity of the variable, >> you know, the math is the math. So, >> yep. But >> mayor, the town has also been a role
model in the state for the last 30 years. We have we adopted an affordable housing program way before any other towns and it was even mandated years I think now. >> Yes, sir. So, we already have a lot of affordable we have a lot of senior housing. So, we'll be able to get around
that obligation rather than fight it with lawyers and then lose anyway. This is a better approach. So, hopefully we'll be successful. That's what everybody wants to see. But we also want to bring more affordable to the burrow, you know, so people can live here and work here.
>> Next question was height of the building. This would be addressed in redevelopment plans. uh it was addressed in for all the one redevelopment plan we addressed in the for all the three and as it relates to Drew Drew University areas B and C also be addressed that way
and we'd be recognizing you know the goal of uh getting the appropriate number of units in there and the most with the least impact if there's a builder's remedy all bets are off somewhat. Anything else
to add to Um, I'll try to take the next one is why are kids not going to schools? And we do have a couple representatives from the board of ed here. I think it's not that they're not choosing to go to Madison schools. There's just not as many kids as there used to be. I talked about my
family of 11. We were not an oddball family then. There was a plenty of families of that size. The number of children in Madison has gone down, hence the population. There's also a uh question uh on a card about Harding students. Were they taken into
consideration? Yes, we have four years of uh Harding students currently and that will continue and so we are assuming Harding students are in the count. >> Mayor, if I could just add to that on the enrollment question because I know nobody ever believes it. I work in
municipalities across the tri-state region and almost all of them are seeing similar declines in enrollment and it's just because people are having fewer or no kids. You know, I think the mayor just spoke to that uh in terms of his own family. Um but we are seeing it across the board uh in almost every
community and certainly every community like Madison. You wouldn't know it from the size of the homes that are being built necessarily, but families like truly are getting smaller and there are fewer children. the um you know in in framing it from a higher education
perspective uh we talked many times about the enrollment cliff and it actually arrived last year um and that was the you know the anticipation of fewer traditional age college students um becoming available for for higher education. So there's lots of things
going on in higher ed right now. Um, but in Morris County, uh, thanks to my buddy Chad GBT here, in uh, 2005, um, 25% of Morris County's population was under the age of 18, and today that
is 20 to 21%. So, it's just some of it is just there are fewer kids than there used to be. So >> and and there was a a related question on a card which was uh is this also taking effect the elementary schools and and yes it's overall school enrollment
that uh has been dropping and yes the uh burough residents overwhelmingly approved a uh the bond issue to support bond referendum to support the schools and so that will help uh our existing students and the uh increases that may
may come um effect on it on taxes. Uh as from Jim's point uh presentation, you saw what will happen if we don't do any draw the shift will go to the residents by allowing the um inclusionary development
that takes the burden off the residents. If it was 100% affordable, uh the examples of our uh you know are 100% affordable. It was taxexempt property. I think they pay a a marginal uh pilot and
so they um so that was a uh zero impact slight income coming in a small pilot. Any 100% that is built on uh land that we have to purchase we would be taking that land off the tax roles and then having a marginal pilot. So would be
some effect. >> And then of course on a forale uh situation, if you have an affordable unit that is for sale, the assessed value of that uh piece of property is going to be lower than you know the neighboring sixbedroom, sixb house next
door. Um so obviously they're they're contributing less because their valuation is less. But it's is contributing more than zero. So, >> next question. I can't figure out what I wrote. Redevelopment gives to control what uh
>> I wrote it down. >> Thank you very much. >> Because I was prepared to answer. I hope. Um does redevelopment give the town control over the numbers and the types of affordable housing is the way I think I was getting at it. And um and I would just start the answer by saying it doesn't give control over the number. The numbers are what the numbers are.
When we work through this process with the fourth round, we'll have a number at the end of it that we'll have to meet. Um what redevelopment does do is give you tools on how to get there. So it can look at you know senior housing, multif family apartments, forale town houses, supportive housing and redevelopment is
just a very nimble way to look at those different types of opportunities. And it's why you in these projects you're seeing them being done through the redevelopment tool rather than zoning because zoning just doesn't contemplate the variety of these housing types in a very quick way. Um otherwise you'd have
to individually reszone these parcels on a parcel by parcel basis. Very very complicated, very time consuming. Redevelopment allows the municipality to act quickly and get that type of development and all the amenities and all the the parameters that they would like to see. Susan Graham, could you
either of you talk about if there are any limitations uh for affordable housing and certain types of restricted housing like senior you know senior housing or other types of restrictions that you might have. >> Yes, that uh that's correct. There's um
what we like to in the in the field call micro requirements uh under the uh affordable housing uh legislation, the amended fair housing act um which stipulates uh the makeup of um unit type uh through which you demonstrate your compliance. So um for example uh of the
206 obligation or you know the 63 units that we're providing um you know compliance in our approach a maximum of 30% for example can be senior units. um a minimum of 50% must be family affordable units must be available you know to general populist for occupancy.
Um so there are very clear defined parameters as to how you can address your obligation with specific unit types. So municipality can't just come in and say well we're going to do we don't we're concerned about school kids even though we heard that's not really an issue. Um you know we're going to do 100% senior and that's going to be it. You have to provide and bucket your
obligation into these specific component requirements. I just want to add a little shading or context to something you said, Susan, which is uh redevelopment uh doesn't give us control over the numbers because the numbers are the numbers, but that I I just want to
clarify for everyone that redevelopment plans do give us control over the density. >> Correct. Yes. >> Right. So there isn't some number that comes from a redevelopment plan that's imposed on the burrow. It's a negotiated number based on the density that the burrow and the proposed developer agree
to and that is one of the main tools we have for limiting the size and the number of units on a redevelop a parcel that is proposed for redevelopment. >> Yeah, absolutely. You you get that topline number and then there's a lot of different pathways to get there. And so when you look at these various projects
we've talked about tonight and perhaps others that even come down the line, they're not all the same. They're not all the same density. They're not all the same type. um they're not all rental, some are for sale. And so it re really does provide that flexibility uh through redevelopment.
>> And um next one was related to ratio of affordable units. Talked a little bit of that. Then there was the uh we've been talking a lot about um affordable rentals. Are there going to be affordable
purchase? Um and what is envisioned for Geralda 3 would be affordable uh purchase. And so as the uh re redevelopment plan comes out, you will see that. So that will give an opportunity for someone that qualifies
to actually own a home. They don't build the level equity other people in Madison may build at uh bought a home 40 years ago, but gives them a chance to invest and have have a place to call their home. Um we already have some um
purchase uh affordable units uh scattered around town. So this is would be an expansion on that. >> That's limited to your income. Is that's correct? >> So yeah, you have to be income qualified, right, to uh to do that.
>> And um there was a question um we talked about a little bit um already about uh all the one when were the opportunities to speak and uh speak up. It was multiple times through the introduction the redevelopment plan
primarily is uh the important time to speak as we talked before. We'll make sure that uh through social media and other methods that we will um push out the process and the uh important dates related to draw.
Anything else to and if a building has affordable units, is there an entity that absorbs the difference in the rent between full and affordable units? The town or builder or who? It is not the town, it is the developer um that absorbs it. Um the
there are other uh also methods that uh we had great creativity with Walnut Street the forum where we used uh uh section 8 vouchers that are dedicated to that site that also supported but u is taken care of by other sources and that
also speaks to um the ratio right the the percentage at at some point there's a tipping point where um you get where it's it's not viable for the builder to absorb all those costs at 50 or 60%. Uh
right, if because essentially the developer is then subsidizing um those affordable units. Um now are we at the maximum? Maybe not. Um, but there have been some towns that have been that
have looked at that as basically a way to say, "Oh, well, we're going to have this absurd ratio and to basically shut down all the developers." And now they're getting challenged on that side is like, "Well, you're just making the
rules to block development. You're not really making the rules because you really want 60% or 70% affordable housing units there. you just don't want it to be financially viable for a developer to come in and do anything. So, we'll see how those challenges play out, but those are happening out there,
too. >> And if I could just supplement those comments as well, um 20%, you know, is kind of the sweet spot on the developer side of things. Um, and the the problem between 20 and 100% is that there are very few financial mechanisms to effectuate development at 40% or 50% or
60%. So, that's why most communities you either see the 8020 mix or 100% affordable projects. It's very difficult to affectuate things in between. There's just not federal financial tools to support that development type. >> All right, that that were the questions we collected. So, we will shift unless
there's any comment any more comments from the council, we'll shift to public comment. Um for those that don't come to uh council meetings on a regular basis, this is a opportunity for you to comment not just on our topic tonight, but on any topic as a whole, uh we ask you to state your name and address and write
the same on the clipboard. We ask you to try to keep your comments to uh three minutes, but we do give a three 33% inclusionary and let allow you to to go to four minutes in in case you >> you've been waiting all night for that,
mayor, haven't you? >> Believe it or not, that just that just popped in my head. And tech leads are 25% inclusionary because you have to calculate on the form. But anyway, Claire CL mic is the microphone.
Okay. >> Um, okay. I think it's very hard to figure out the process that you guys are all on the council. You really know what's going on. I'm chair of the environmental commission. I know more than the average person. I went to the redevelopment hearing at the planning
board. There was nothing to say. There were no comments that could be made about the size or the design. It was just question whether this old building should be redeveloped and the criteria was all clear and the decision was an
obvious yes. I feel like the town needs to on big projects that con concern like affected communities like mine. Um, the town needs to have the kind of meetings that you've had where you had one for Walnut Street project, you had one for
Waverly, you have this. I think these are really effective and it would help reach what Chris was talking about where you you do it at a point where the toothpaste isn't out of the tube where people can can express things that might be helpful.
So I, you know, I I haven't found a good way even being sort of inside to really influence the process other than to say this building should be electrified. Thank you very much, Claire. Very, very good point. Uh I do want to point out
that um recognizing yes uh we can always do our jobs even better, but our redevelopment plans I think go further than um most plans do in other towns. As Claire just pointed out, the electrifying electrification of uh some of these places, the green elements that
we were requiring of these uh redevelopments really are helping change not just Madison but change our world. So, we are committed to that. Chris, um Chris Kellogg, three Walnut Street. Um yeah, I think what Clare said is key.
I mean, this is a lot of us don't know these are happening. We just need to have a little more heads up. And I still honestly feel like there's a lot more experts in this town than you're taking advantage of. This is just stuff that's there waiting to be resourced. Plus, it
would make the whole community feel more engaged with the whole community. Um it's it's too bad that these buildings do appear to be sort of gated communities. Um, so I wish I don't know in the legislation that was written for
the area redevelopment whether it was possible to have said this is not going to be quite a gated community. We are going to make sure that there are more I mean I can walk into some of the um garden apartments around here. I don't go into the buildings but I can walk through the yards. Some of them actually
have connected pathways that can take you through to another neighborhood by going through that space. So that could have been written into the um area redevelopment standards. The other thing that's missing apparently is is a serious robust green requirement for
this Geraldo one. That building is not particularly uh sustainable and they denied it and pushed it back and industry standards. That's why we're using all gas because industry standard. Well, finally they turned it around. But then I learned later uh with the for support of housing
that in fact we're looking at um PTAC units cheapest developer low-end developer favorite for multif family because you just make a hole in the wall and stick the unit in there and run it and the poor tenant
pays high electric rates and they're noisy. Um so I then said to him, "Well, are we doing Pax over at the main building? You said you're doing heat pumps, but now you got me scared here." they wouldn't answer the question because oh they're separate projects. So that was annoying. Um and then on on
affordable housing inclusivity issues, I think the planning board may have misunderstood my comments the night we went through that. I was not in any way opposing sportive housing. Uh and not to brag about it, but I've got three
Habitat homes here in Madison, five leadcertified platinum homes in Patterson. I have the same moral obligation to affordable accessible housing that you mentioned earlier that the whole town does, right? I mean, I'm really I'm really into it. I'm I play
the game. But, um, you know, this this supportive housing thing is a tragedy. It really is because we've got a cheaper building with PTAC units, fake roofs on it, uh, no covered parking, um, distinctively different than the architecture of the other building. So,
you got the high-end sort of corporate urban look. And then you move over to where the and and they're they're intimately connected because part of your affordable unit count is accounted for by that unit over there. So, you know, I just think we got to be more
careful with the inclusivity definitions here. There there are projects in town here where the dumpster >> one minute. >> Okay. Where the dumpster is right next to the affordable unit. A little site planning could have moved the dumpster farther away. Another unit in town here. Um where do you put the affordables? you
jam them around the electric rooms, stairs, and and elevator cores because it makes awkward spaces for planning the so that's where they go. So there's just no excuse. And in my experience with Habitat, you you do not
segregate the affordables. I know that's a hard thing to do always, but you try to keep them integrated into the community. You try to keep them, if they're in a separate building, you try to make that building feel like it's not a cheap building. And that's what we did over there at at Gerald the one with
that building. That is a cheap uh low-end tutor wannabe with cheap systems in it and no covered parking. And so the tenants are forever going to be considered a special group over there. And that's just sad and we shouldn't do
that. We didn't do it on Walnut Street. So, you know, let's let's pick it up. >> Thank you very much. Appreciate those comments, Chris. Anyone else wishing to comment? Please step forward. Dominique. You want me to sign this? Hi, uh, Dominique Pikmier, uh, 54 Morris Place.
I just wanted to sort of, this is a little bit personal to my neighborhood, Fairwoods, and then also Rose Pine, etc. I just want to make everyone aware and think about when they did the traffic study for Geralda, they suggested they only looked at Madison Avenue. We have
Danforth that is going right into that new development. What happens on a very busy day? I because I I live there. So I try to cross the crosswalk on Danforth. They speed right by. I've almost been hit several times. They come up from Park Avenue. There are a lot of
buildings that are going on to Park Avenue. Those neighborhoods we are now having cut through. They take a left turn off of Danforth. They cut right through. The kids are sitting there um waiting for the bus stop. Like the bus goes down there, the school bus. The
kids are there. There's a field. They love to go play in it. It's really getting to a point where it's a little bit dangerous. And I'm a little concerned about all of this building that's coming onto Madison Avenue right in that spot. Can there be something done? I just want to bring that to everybody's attention. My thought is
maybe like a no left turn sign onto Morris Place. could I mean I doubt this could happen but a closure at the end of Morris Place something to buffer those neighborhoods that are really getting hit with the traffic that's going to come in. >> That's it. >> When uh when we close the comment period
I have an update on um some of the comments I made at the planning board related to >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Anyone else wishing to comment? Please step forward. >> Um Christina Pendar 35 Canterbury Road. Um, I just want to say I appreciate all the time that you've put into this
meeting and as well as to just like taking like I feel like a newbie to this process and I'm glad to be learning and participating. Um, I just want to make a comment and something that kind of frustrated me and I think number of the planning board members felt similar about was that when the developer was talking about the one deralda was
basically saying like these residents don't want to walk downtown and I think one of the reasons I love Madison so much is that I my husband has a we have a electric cargo bike. It's like a Dutch style bike, so you would see my husband biking my children around throughout Madison to the YMCA, all the places. And I really appreciate that like on
weekends, we do not use our cars essentially ever. Um, and I think that like as we think about developing in our town and especially again this property that is like a little bit on the outskirts, but like it is very feasible you could walk or bike from there to downtown. It's really not that far. And
making it so that we can keep our community interconnected. And I think that would help alleviate some of the concerns around traffic is if we have intentional building that is oriented around things other than cars. Um so thank you everyone. >> Cara Hines 12 Colonial Way. Um I just
want to note when you did the presentation for the pilot program there was no clarity as to the timeline. So I think there needs to be a clarity around that. There's a 30-year timeline on that. So I don't know. Do we have a plan after 30 years? What happens to that revenue? And it is, I feel like, your
fiduciary responsibility for the long term of this town to encompass that. Um 10 cents on the dollar to save for 30 years over the long term. I would hope we're not playing whack-a-ole again. And the other piece to that as well um is
just to note that Chadam um has raised concerns that the municipal council gains the power to spend millions in pilot revenue without the scrutiny or direct tax relief that would accompany an increase in the regular tax base. Um and they're not required to share with
the school. So obviously the school board would have to negotiate that or you would could figure that out on the front end. Just something to be aware of. Um, also just regarding communication, uh, the board of ed does an excellent job. Usually they send two
emails the day of their meetings, one in the morning and one closer to the meeting. Something if we could all sign up for something like that, whether it's an opt-in for text or email. I think we do have those means of communication already in place. It's just implementing
it to another level. I am finally uh oh my only other thing I'm just going to put out on the table is that we do own the Madison community pool land. So, you know, who knows where this will go, but
that might be something in the future that would have to be considered. So, I'm just putting that out there on the table. >> Any other uh comments? Hi, Mark Telmage, eight Ross Court. So, I'm very much directly affected by
all of this. Uh, I appreciate the complexity of this affordable housing issue. U, you know, hopefully guilty to being a lawyer. Uh so I'm very familiar with Mount Laurel and what's transpired
in the 40 years since Mount Laurel. Uh I think the complexity I mean just is proof to what uh President Reagan once said that you know the scariest words are in the English language. I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Um
and and that's what they've done with this statute among so many others. Um but I look at this air mayor I know you have mentioned you know the moral um obligation and that Madison has gone far
above and beyond over the last 40 years. I think we should look at it purely now as a statutory obligation and no more than that and deal with it in that fashion. And I think you know the efforts spent and money spent whether
it's on experts or lawyers to minimize um the number of units that are built in this town. There's money well spent to preserve um and protect our town from the ruination uh of its culture and and the
the town that that it is and has been. We don't want to be the next Jersey City or Hoboken. That's not what that not what we should be looking to be. Uh and overbuilding and the number of units that are being discussed is going to lead us down that road. I think we
should all approach this knowing that the 8020 rule that that's that's dollars in the pockets of the developers. Let's be clear, Avalon Bay is not altruistic. They're not in this to help Madison. They're in there to put money in their
pocket. That's what they're here for and and that's what it's all about. Um lastly, I would say that um I live on Ross Court. Uh so my house backs up to the Zuck Arborum. That's my my backyard.
Uh so I've walked through the woods, the Drew Forest, many many times. Um and did so over, you know, I've been in that address for 35 years. Uh, that being said, Drew does not take care of the
forest. Drew may be a great university, but it's a bad neighbor. And I say that and I mean that. And I've had more issues than I care to to address over the years. Um, I I I think that there's
a piece of the forest, call it forest, whatever it is, it's more of a landfill at the moment. And I think at least part of it on Lanica Way between Copper Beach and Glenn Wild that >> one minute. >> I am I said I'm finishing so I am that
that strip there on Lanica Way between Copper Beach and Glenn Wild um is would be appropriate for uh locating some of this housing. I know where you want to put it is uh on the rugby field there on
Madison Avenue. Um the traffic is already terrible and um I I just see that as a very bad alternative. >> Any other comments step forward? Seeing that I close this part of the
meeting. I'm not going to be able to respond to all the comments, but I just want to touch on a couple of quick things I've brought up that brought up very well. the um certainly part of our goal in saving the forest is not only saving the forest but um Drew has 163 acre campus to care for and maybe the
forest is not their highest priority. It would be a high priority for Madison. So being able to uh have it in our control it will be uh cared for. um a very good statement about the moral versus uh statutory requirement and and I
recognize that um the world has changed when Madison established its housing authority and did scattered site housing throughout our town. Very proud moment for our town and it was a different time for purchasing land. That model is gone.
We we really this is going to be a stretch as you've heard for the last hour and a half or two hours plus of meeting our statutory. So that that is our goal right now in in meeting our statutory we're we're meeting the moral um land moral goal the pool land that is
part of uh our Rossi. So if we used any pool or any land around in there we had to uh have replace that land with a multiplier of acreage somewhere else in town. So, it would not actually be available. And uh as you saw from last
uh council meeting, we're committed to making sure that uh generations of kids will be and adults and seniors will be uh tuming in that pool for years to come. >> Not to put you on the spot, but what is the Rossi? >> Uh thank you. Uh regist registration
registr of open space or recreation and open space inventory. >> It's our list of open space. Yeah. >> Yes. I And I knew it was going to be on the exam, too. um uh pilots typically they they can vary but typically uh 30-year pilots
um connectivity that's certainly something that we have talked it was discussed at the last uh planning board meeting and it's a commitment um I think one of the themes in my 20 years as elected official has been sidewalks I lost the battle on sidewalks on woodland
I'm not giving up on that yet right now there is a gap between Lanica and Mars place and I think we need to work with the state to close that gap so that not just any new residents but all the other residents at that end of town can be
more welcomed into our uh the rest of the town. Um the the comment about uh talking about Cadam and the pilots and we didn't cover this in the pilot thing but there there is a distinction on impact on schools
not necessarily school funding but impact on taxpayers when you have as Eric and I talked about it we have Connleyville and the Range school district if they're one and the
It's cleaner like it is in Madison. So if there's a pilot, it benefits all of the Madison residents. But if you have a Chattam school district that encompasses two towns or even more drastic is the Mars school
district with Marstown and Mars Township. So when one town does a lot of pilots, the residents in that one town benefit from the tax break from those pilots. the school funded, the schools are still fully funded, but one town may
see their taxes stay steady, the other town may see them go up. So that is the the difference, the nuance when you hear that um pilots are a burden. It is more when you have a regional school district. I think the last thing I
wanted to update was the um Danforth. uh with the help of Captain uh Joe Longo, we had a very productive meeting with um EOT shortly after that planning board meeting. It's been on my list of uh getting rid of the jug handle at
Danforth. Um and making a better intersection. As DOT looked at that, they said that intersection's a mess. I don't know how that ever got approved. So, so for those that are not familiar with it, um, if
you want to go take a left-hand turn, and I'm getting into too much detail at 940, but if you want to take a left hand, if you want to get into Rald Farms heading west on Madison Avenue, the proper way to do it is go through the intersection at Danforth, get in the jug
handle, get to the traffic light, and then cross over. We did traffic studies on that jug handle, and guess what we found? almost no one is using it. What is what are they using for their jug handle? Taking a right at Mars Place, coming down, taking a left. So, our proposal
one is to create a left turn lane that would line up with the right turn lane that's or the left turn lane heading eastbound. So, so there's no advantage of having to go through the light and then get stuck. You can actually take a left-hand turn. Other things that were brought up there and was mentioned at
the um planning board meeting that if you're at the light at uh Danforth, you don't know that you have a delayed red and if you're at the green light coming out, you don't know you actually have an advanced green as DOT pointed out. I can't believe we have two left turn lanes and no left arrow. So, it's a
mess. Uh what's what are the next steps? Well, too bad that Madison will have to do the engineering initi or the design work on that, but DOT is committed to uh improving that which will include um jug handle disappears. Bus station that's now on the wrong side
where there's no crosswalk would be cross brought over where the jug handle is and hopefully a great improvement. So, we will be working on that. >> Mayor, I got one more. Do you want to just mention that we've looked at traffic calming and complete streets for the pedestrian crossing?
uh at at Morris and Danforth. >> Yes. So, um yeah, as far as uh add adding the actuator um the and it's getting late, so remind me what >> I was sorry. I we have we did a a speed study there. The the the MP the Madison
Police Department did a speed study there and uh a a sort of short-term test to see if creating a temporary bumpout at the corner of Morris Place and Danforth would slow down traffic there. um slow it down on Morris Place.
>> The idea being that we could make that turn a lot slower. You would have to slow down to turn. We would create better ped pedestrian safety with a bumpout and a narrower intersection. It's a costly intersection to improve
for pedestrian safety. So I wonder if we can make that part of our discussion with DOT. >> Yep. So So we are committed to to making that safer and I've I've been here for quite a while. So the iterations on Mars Place for those that have been in Madison a
long time may remember that there was not a hard right turn onto Mars Place that actually it was a fair right. And so you can imagine what the uh traffic the speed on Mars Place was at that time. at at another time we an island was built at the Mars Place and Danforth
with no left turn. Um didn't that that that didn't quite pan out. So I think the the approach of squeezing and we've we've seen the effectiveness of that in uh different parts of the town will be uh a difference and we we look at this at every you know whether it's a small
change in the town or a larger one. With that, unless there are any other comments from the uh council, I'll entertain well, first I'll say thank you so much for uh spending a December evening. I know it's not the best time of year to be here. Uh and for those that are watching at home, thank you for
listening for the whole time. We'll continue the dialogue and for all happy holidays. And now we'll entertain a motion to adjurnn. >> Mayor, I move that we adjourn. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Thank you all. So, a PTH