There we go. >> Okay. Um, >> I'm going to call the meeting of the planning board of June 8th >> to order, please. Um, >> so present I have uh associate member
Nancy Garvey, Sandy Bodmer Turner here, >> Peter Morton, >> Gordon Fry here, >> Sarah Kraton here, Don Harden, >> uh, Gordon Brewster, and Mark Resnik, uh, land use director is, um, >> step out for a minute.
>> Um, welcome everybody. We just had a nice, uh, walk of the general district um, our first meeting. So just to continue our everpresent discussion of zoning um and
welcome to our regular meeting. Sorry please. Okay. Um any public comment on matters not well first of all um can someone online uh
maybe Olsson Lewis or JV or Brett Smith tell me? Loud and clear. Karen, >> what? >> Okay. Um, so no public comment matters not on the agenda.
Seeing none. Um we will now um open the public hearing for one Deer Hill Road site plan review the construction of two multif family homes on the same lot with more than one residential dwelling unit
in each building. So um and before I ask for a motion, I'm going to ask John to go take a seat in the audience as he has a conflict of interest. So, I'll take a motion to open the public hearing. Um, >> so move second.
>> Okay. Um, all in favor? >> Great. Thank you. Um, so tonight uh who we have uh Tom Ford and uh I'll let you take it away. >> Sure.
>> Thanks everybody. You'll remember me from the pool with this one dare project that came in. >> It's in the 3A zone. It can accommodate up to seven units. We had a plan for four standalone units. Apparently the 3A zoning that you well adopted didn't
allow for single family detach. It build up duplexes and triplexes >> and that came up at that meeting and initially I thought that was going to be a problem and we definitely wait for a recast of the bart. The reality is with a little help from
Mo San Lewis and Google McDonald and um we were able to just do a little connections and modified the site plan anyway. So we ended up with two things. So the same total that they are little
flexing way it actually was a very good idea on the part of the plan because we were able to knock down but a few percentage the amount of impervious area. >> Okay. uh pavement. Yeah. Which is always a good thing. And um the new arrangement
uh gives us little pockets where we can put individual small patios and maybe square feet uh distinct one from the other. The only negative and it's sort of small. I think one or two garage doors might be visible as you drive up
the hill drive. And initially none of those garage doors were were visible. But, you know, six of the eight are going to be still well handled and two of them are uh I think you've already seen the plans
for this. The architecture is meant to relate to one to the other and also be somewhat in context with what happens along Pine Street. You'll recall that the two 34 and 36 36 two new houses I'm building one of
them been tapping the way it livably a long time but we're almost ready to start foundations going to do the one beside me they'll be slightly different in styles but they'll still work with what you see as you drive up on Pine Street but the ones that you the four
that are grouped together on this other acre parcel are meant to look like cousins at least you know so is on this side of the table briefly but I'm sure that Julie will answer any questions you have about the
architecture and I'm certain that answer questions about how we got to this but the short answer is your concern about single family house was correct and duplexes worked out mind and the reality
is if you want to pursue the change to include some attached at the next but >> okay do you have a a presentation you >> sure I do I I did a request to share screen I don't know if every
>> I think I gave it to you oh sharing I can bring up. I don't know if it's >> Can you just introduce yourself? >> Can you introduce yourself? >> Yeah, I'm Julie McDonald. >> We have
we've made some some slight modifications to the last time you saw the designs. We we have uh one and a half story homes. Um similar designs, some
similarities between them. The the those porches which announce the entries, we've got a combination gambrell and gables and a half story. Um some mix of materials. We're looking at
clabards and shingles, asphalt roofs, and the entry roofs all have copper or metal, I should say. We're looking at copper, but maybe metal. Um, the the connectors ended up working
really nicely in order to create these two these duplexes. What we've done is is add these these little walkways which are also covered spaces that connect to one of the units
kitchens. Uh and those allow us to have a little step down and little covered eating area. And we're also looking at the access from the access through to some some patio areas that we're looking
to develop. And the the one thing that this was the drawing that was submitted and the one thing that we're we're adjusting is the location of of this walk through. We want to pull it a little closer.
Um, sorry. It's good. >> Can we see it? >> Looks good. >> Um, and that this allows us to have great access from again that kitchen, that unit, and the through space to a patio.
>> Can you please point out the patios? >> They're not really completely developed yet. Um, so we're not seeing that, but they will be looking in this area. this area and I believe um Tom were you saying all this up here as well
>> conceptually this this and that. >> I see >> because of the way that the thing changed around able to do that and still get these little
>> 50 square feet of privacy one one building to the other. The other thing as a developer that I should tell you is these are all constructed at reasonable scale. 2,800 ft 3200 square feet. They're really mad
for for people that look like me, I guess. Uh uh first floor master bedrooms. There will be a couple bedrooms upstairs, but it's thought that these would be more than likely senior housing. not not
55, not age restricted, just that people that have no one traveling college. This would be a perfect house for those not meant to be kids. In fact, they're all
>> okay. Um so our um jurisdiction here is site plan review um under the MBTA housing provisions. Um, one of the things is um, minimum number
of parking spaces is 1.5 spaces per residential unit. So I think we have that. Have you confirmed that? Okay. Um and um our applicability like I said site
plan review um and the criteria is reviewed for the consistency with the purpose and intent of the of the um MBTA zoning um and section three performance
standards for site plan review. So we should review those. Um and then this will have to go to the design review committee. Mark, can you uh >> Yes. >> review review for us what that is? So, the design review committee was set up
uh through the zoning bylaw for review um the designs of new buildings uh that need approval to the um zone which is all
housing district. So um what the planning board will do after tonight after they take public comment get some feedback to the developer and their architects is um and request any additional information is to
forward the design plans from buildings to the design review board. I'll then convene try and find a meeting time for them to meet uh review the plans and and
review them with the architects and and u and give feedback and uh depending on you know their thoughts on the plans and what they request. It may take one or two meetings or theoretically it could
go more but at some point they need to report back to the planning board with a recommendation and then the planning board would finish their site plan review of the property including taking any uh recommendations from the uh
design review committee under adisement. But that's that's kind of the process. >> And the design review committee is >> Barry Gilbert and Chuck Weisner, right? >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. Great. So, we'll get that together
ASAP. >> Yes. >> Um, do they they don't have to meet in a public I mean, they have to meet in public, but they don't have to have public hearing, right? >> No, it's not a public hearing. They're just an advisory board, if you want to call them, uh, a committee to the
planning board. So, they're not necessarily decision makers. They don't say gay or nay, but they make recommendations to the planning board, which has the ability to say yes or no. >> Mark, are there meetings open to the
public though? I assume. >> Yes, they are public because they're appointed by this board. They're a public body. since it's the first first time we'll be doing this thing. So, so we have to actually not put an announcement that we'll be meeting on such and such a date
such as this time. >> At which point we can hold it in public? >> Yeah, >> we have to post an agenda. >> Mark will walk you through. >> Actually, this will be a good first >> run of this because the design is seems
to be perfectly acceptable. So >> they may >> the jury there. >> No, I think we need to see what the design >> of course is going but I don't it's no one is proposing a 10-story building. So >> right
>> I don't think it's going to be a controversial review process. >> Um do you have a landscape plan besides the >> Yeah, >> we do. We do not at this time. >> We do not have landscape. We have talked about the buffer between three
independent single families that are on Pine Street and there is a clearly a lineup buffer to make that happen. So far street the landscape planners office. >> Yeah. So I think that's at some point
between now and the end of the the building design committee um with a landscape plan showing like patio locations greening and buffering and other types of
>> native plants rather than >> can I make a suggestion too Sarah in order to since this is our first design review committee I saw I saw the write up here of what the materials are in the window placement, the fenestration, the gable gable shed versus the gamro hair.
Is there a list of materials that are being used on the building that are available that we that we could see as part of it? just frankly it won't make a difference saying but it will be more informative to those who are looking at it for the first time to
know what is going where as far >> sure >> whether it's wood or whether it's cementitious or whether it's PVC or whatever it is >> just just as just as a point >> we're glad to do that but you went back this is a iterative thing we'll probably
see you two or three times >> so think of all your questions sensation too. It would be helpful to us. There are a list of criteria that you have to meet. It would be really helpful to us. >> Yeah. >> For you to address each of the criteria
and tell us how you're complying with them so we don't have to guess. >> That criteria would be in the 3A guidelines. >> It's quite quite voluminous, but it's uh >> specific. So that's >> that's not new to us.
that to get there >> and it includes the landscape elements as well. Yeah, I'd kind of like to underline that I think the landscape it's a big enough change to the site. positive though it is that the landscaping is really
important particularly I would imagine to neighbors because what was there before was an open field >> but but truthfully the graves are such that all the people that are up on the hill look all these so really it's just Brian's house that
is a director and the two that I'm instructing >> yes well and the one across the street >> and the one well >> across your hill >> yeah Yes. >> Yeah. But I think I would defin to Chris's point, take your statement of
design intent and walk through the um section for design standards which is 9.4.9 and um walk through through those lighting materials or if there are any um exemptions that
you're looking for. So the other other kind of key element will be drainage design for the site. So I think I already mentioned that it's past but uh and that
it might uh require a storm water permit from public works. So they would review that finally. He has engage for engineer help with that. >> Okay. >> He already had some thoughts on that. I
think he actually >> The other thing is that there are some standards for in section 6.3.7 that are pretty obvious, but uh just again work walk yourself right through those. um in terms of uh
landscape elements, finished grades, so forth. Um anything else we should I guess you just public comment. Um is there any public comment on the uh proposal before us?
>> Are these uh just a slab or >> let's uh your name? >> Brian Parker. >> And where what's your name? Pine Street. >> Okay, great. >> But it's just going to be on a slab. >> We're hoping to put at least limited basements under a couple, but you've seen how high we've been working to get
the other one. >> I I'm not absolutely sure that's going to happen. It's this the ledge goes from old weathered ledge that we can almost excavate or we can tap to ledge that need. And so I think that'll the site
will answer that question. Great. Any other questions right now or from the board? >> Anyone online? >> I'm looking. If you're online, you have a question, just uh go ahead and hang out. It's not going to get more.
>> Um Okay. So, I think we will continue the hearing um until our next meeting or um we may decide Yes, this you may want to continue it until July so that the
>> so that the design review committee can do it if the design review committee can review it and make any recommendations. I think we can seems to me that this can be pretty straightforward. >> Should Yes. Yes. As a point of order here, >> do you want me to contact them or or would you like to say that?
>> Yeah. No, we can I can do that because I got to I'll have to put an agenda together and get it posted and get a room. So, um, so the other thing I was going to suggest is that, um, if for some reason,
uh, one of the other two, one of those two, um, design review committee is unavailable, like is traveling for the month or something. Um, is there a board member who would like to fill in for them? Um, as a
Peter Peter might be a lot of help if you need some help. >> Yeah. So, we can agree that Peter would fill in if Gary or Chuck are unavailable. >> That way it keeps it moving. That's everybody's safe. >> Um, okay. Great. >> So, sorry. Can I ask and and I know you
you mentioned the two uh homes that you're going to build in front of these duplexes. Do you have approximate timing on when that will begin? >> One in has begun and then we're in front of um engineering for a foundation plan.
They have foundation design and then we'll be back in front of them with building permit. My brother will start building some mistakes and there is but I guess probably something to sell
at the end of the year. for those two. >> Yeah. >> That'd be marvelous. >> Okay. So, >> by the end of the year, you're done. >> Well, you know, if the building is up and painted in the outside and the
outside is finished, then we could be talking about appended cabin one on the inside and close in February. >> Okay, >> great. Um, so I'll take a motion to continue this to July 13th and I'm going to make it at seven just because
sometimes that's helpful. Um, and um, motion to continue the health one here and a second. Um, all in favor >> oppos. Okay, great. We are getting into
summer. So definitely try to have if you can check all the boxes on July 13th that would be in everybody's interest because we will probably skip at least one of our summer meetings for Okay. Um >> and I think you want me to coordinate
with Mark and he'll >> Yeah, we'll get that going. Is that right? Right away. So yeah, the design review group should probably plan for having two meetings in case there's questions. Okay, good. Sandy, can you make a comment? I just wanted to say to
Mr. Ford and Mr. This is the first time that this new zoning is going to go into a place. Mr. Parker, I think, as you may know, is the neighbor on the north end of things. >> And so, as we kind of move through this together, it's really a good thing to
have both of you with an open attitude and moving it forward. So, thank you. And I think you'll recall from my first meeting, we didn't back out the site. I want this to like something and the 3A fell on me from
>> Well, there you go. >> Great. Okay, good. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Um the next public hearing, you said it was going to be at 7:30. Is that correct? We continue to 7:30.
cell tower. >> I'm pretty sure we can see 7:30. >> Um, so let's we're going to jump over that to talk about um the housing production plan. We'll we'll come back to the cell special permit for the um 17
Ashland Dabs cell tower um at 7:30. Um Mark, updates on the housing production plan. So, um I sent out you have submitted some comments to
Karen Sberg, our consultant, who has uh sent in the revised draft >> with some updated numbers. Um and so I sent that out to everybody today. >> I missed it.
>> Um it just came at 9 today. >> Yeah. I don't come back, please. >> And you don't see that. Maybe I thought I did. Maybe. Um and so uh >> I think Karen just sent it to you and
me. >> Oh, okay. >> So, um she will um is attending the housing trust meeting on the 16th, I believe, and we're doing a public forum
on the 17th. So, those are the two opportunities, last steps for her to get feedback from one of the town housing groups and um the last of them she hasn't spoken with and then uh have the public forum after which time she'll
begin to put together the rest of the plan, add the comments in and recommendations um and other thoughts and then she'll come back to the planning board. Not entirely sure whether she was going to be prepared to come back at the 22nd yet. That would be
>> you said she was unavailable that day. So remember that's why we that's why we pushed public forum off cycle meetings which is why I also give us only do maybe one meeting in July and one in August because we're trying to push before people disappear. still so it's
the 17th on a Wednesday. >> So if it's not a regular meeting time, if you can't attend, let me know. Um so okay and um so I do still have some comments to make
on on the plan and it seems to me that the big piece is do we meet the SHI or not, right? That's the do we have the required number of units. My concern is that um with the Gordon Woods project
that this may um get additional people will be looking around for housing data and housing um and so we want to make sure it's right. I still think that the the big thing I see is
that that it's not identified which things are escalated and which things are not. And I'm fine if they're not like housing prices. I'm not convinced that the average housing price I have a long list. I also think that her charts are difficult to read with um two two um
years um in the chart with a slash between them. That is like an odd way to present data. >> What do you mean? Specifically, Sarah. >> Um if you wouldn't mind. >> Yeah, I'll show you. >> Was that one of the chart? So
>> lot um yeah there a bunch of them so I can >> um and maybe it's not worth I mean I just think it's a very odd >> people extremely >> well written informed yeah data driven
document it's amazing >> it's it's almost like too much information >> the kind of the point I'm wondering is so what >> so what >> yeah I mean a little they went a long way. >> So like what do we garner from all the
data >> that it seems to me the one the one thing is that we don't have the required number of units in the shi. I mean, if this was written for Rockton and the number the the income numbers,
the rental numbers and the poverty numbers maybe were different any community >> huge, >> but they still didn't meet the number of huge um units. >> That's >> um then uh
>> um >> how would the plan be different? might be different. >> But >> so it's more about the recommendations, you know, what your community needs. Does your community housing like for
seniors? Does your like in Brockton, they needed more workforce housing? Needed to bring more middle income >> people jobs in the community. They had >> able I mean I worked there. So, if you're going to use that as an example,
>> they had a lot of um less affluent really >> people and then they had neighborhoods with a lot of and they were missing the middle um not the middle type housing but over population. So, you know, they needed that that kind of thing. So
workforce housing if they had done a HPP while I was there I think they are over 10% so they there was no like interest doing that >> but yeah but that that's that's what their recommendation
as opposed to here where it's a little different. We need senior housing we need starter homes. We need different things than what they need. So I think that's that's kind of the key is not so much all this data. It's like where are
we going with it and that's what's important >> that it was necessary to make an informed decision. I did feel it was it was burdensome to read it sometimes but when you got through it you came up with like 10 five or six conclusions. We
>> well maybe to Sarah's point what she should be doing is >> is what are those conclusions? >> Yeah. flat eye those make the transition from >> one of the charts that is very odd to read at least is establishment wages this just an example she does it all
over the place 2013 2024 and then she has this like too long I mean it's just an odd unusual way to present data >> yeah some of that was a little >> it's very hard to >> she's still may not be too right
>> and is that the format she uses typically. >> It'll be interesting to look at another one just to see whether that's >> Yeah. I just think it's hard to read and >> has there been another edition of this another >> right? >> Yes. >> Yeah. We >> It was done in 2020.
>> No, no. I mean since we read this one from May has there been anything else? No, >> she's got she's about to >> You're about to get a new one. >> Right. So I guess the other question is think a little bit or the other point of the forum is to think about the
recommendations because we agreed last time that she would do a public forum and ask for input and then we'll get her input as well and think about um what those recommend that's the important part is what is what are the recommendations. So, what I would what
I'm going to ask at the affordable housing trust meeting and for the board to consider is specific recommendations for some specific uh sites in town that are under consideration. And I think a big one is
Gordon Woods. And I'd love to hear what she would say would be her recommendation for how Gordon Wood should be developed from the town's point of view. The second one, and which is a bit controversial, but I'm going to do it anyway, is uh the Masonic Temple,
the senior center. Should that be a site for senior housing because that's a big piece of land in the middle. It needs to consider it. What's your recommendation about that? Maybe she'd say it's it's too close to the water, blah blah blah. It shouldn't be considered, but I'd love
to hear her recommendation about it. There are also two other sites. Um, one is, uh, the Stampaiip Hill site that we've been talking about. Want to get an opinion about that? >> And finally, uh, maybe this power site
that we're talking about. So, so um, in discussing sites with them, uh, or the consultants, whether it's Karen or somebody else, they're not going to necessarily give you like this is what you should do. What you as the planning board need to
do is you need to provide in the plan town owned sites that are potential housing sites and or other private sites such as power that could be potential housing sites
that the town could pursue for housing. So, um I don't think you're going to get the answer from her, guidance from her about what you should do. she's going to turn that and say, "Do you feel those are appropriate sites to consider for
housing?" And so you as the board have because if your plan so in the last community, they didn't even want to submit any properties. They submitted like the dump and didn't submit any town environmental reports that said that you
could build on it. So the state said, "Well, we don't know whether there's hazardous waste there or whatever because you can in some instances build adjacent to not." But um so they kicked it and said, "You need to provide other things." So apparently they did because
they got approved, but um so we need to to do that. That's an important element and she will discuss that with you. So Mark, what you were just describing was the prior edition of the housing
production plan for Manchester. >> No, another another community. >> Another community. >> Yes. So >> So >> um >> I would also be careful. This is the
town's plan, not a consultant's plan. And so I would be very careful about asking consultant to at least write down a particular recommendation on any particular site not knowing all of the other
factors that it's proposed for the DPW or it's whatever. >> And that's the other thing. I mean, you can't we can write in that we have a new facilities comm community uh committee and that the committee is evaluating several of the town sites and we list them and we can say what what the town's
needs are and that we uh anticipate that one of those sites become available for you know a future housing site but at this time we can't identify that specific site out of these three let's
say and then you could um uh as well as identify two two other possible sites. So you know one being the standby hill, one being power, one being even even if it doesn't
pan out to be feasible >> because the structure of the building, right, is is such that you just basically have to level it and start again. and that the flood elevations coming up over over the parking lots just doesn't make it safe to build
housing there or whatever other reasons. But if we include it as a possibility, this as long as it's there's some justification, the state might accept that as one of the possible housing sites. It doesn't mean a local committee
working on that project is going to agree, but um but it can be identified as a potential project and and you know and that's what they're looking for is communities to they're trying to pride
communities think outside of the box and try and figure out what what do you have access to that you can add some housing units to. One of the other things I was wondering about that I don't see in the plan is
other, you know, other constraints that whether they're real or imagined. Um, and I'm thinking of water, sewer, um, I mean, schools are often a um, a, you know,
given or, you know, put out there as a as a constraint. Um, do we put those in this plan or are they just we silent on those? Are they are these plans silent on those issues? >> She's I know it hasn't been updated yet,
but she did address them years ago about exactly those things, the utilities and services necessary to allow this to happen. So, it and it I've got this little brief summary and I don't know what page it's on 138 of the original.
It did it did define generally what the town needs to do to carry this forward without getting to specific sites. Matter of fact, she made specific mentions that the town needs to consider available public lands for this to
happen without identifying anything. So I I think I think to allay your fears if you had your fears about them. She did she did address this previously and I assume that I was talking with Peter before. It's going to be very interesting whether she is able to
update this with fresh material and come up with a different opinion because this is so thoroughly written and not so different than probably you'd come up with right now. This is the one of the most uh complete and all plan that I've ever seen.
>> It has a lot of dates and >> you just wonder what else she can she can add to it. >> Yeah. Because in the previous community uh the regional planning agency had put one together and it's very simple, very it's got data, it's got information, it
has recommendations, but it's it's a much more simplified version. Yeah. And so um it's not required. So what I was saying is it's not required to have such a big thickness involved plan. So the fact that you do gives you extra
>> it has a lot of utility for other planning questions. >> Well, just ask a dumb question. It's a new planning board member. Um how is the plan used? Like what's the purpose of it? Who's going to pick it up and read it? Find it online. What's the purpose
of it? But the purpose is several things. One is um for the community to try and find and identify sites to build housing. I mean that's the state's ultimate goal. The town can use it to claim safe harbor if they develop a
certain number of sites uh uh units each year and that gives them like a year or maybe two or if a private if developer builds a big project and we get a a chunk. Uh so that's another use of it.
So um then of course it just is a place to assemble other information that you might use when you're doing other planning. I I would imagine as a person who might be looking to do a project somewhere that if they found this housing plan and
it talked about all these great things, all the justification for why Manchester needs more housing >> and then it was accompanied with, I don't know, a drawing or some version of our of our town uh zoning maps that
then located these sites even with a wish list the potential number of units on them, then all of a sudden you're getting a lot of like, oh gosh, we could do 30 units on this lot. This is something that I could be. I better go talk to this town. Um, it seems without
that, without the sites being pretty clearly identified and maybe even just vetted at a very low level as to how many units that fit there, um, someone else would then have to take that leap forward and do that work themselves. >> Yeah. Yeah. Generally, these don't get
into private sectors because in some towns, you know, they're they're big big towns, lots of >> undeveloped lands and stuff like that. But, but even those towns with limited public land still have to come up with
some public sites. >> But even so, we have we have a number of decent public sites. >> We do. And if you look at her last U plan, she listed four of them. And Chris, you just listed off seven or eight of them, right? So that'll be different alone.
>> She also has a a zoning strategy section in here, >> which essentially >> what I thought about as well, what John just expressed is here as you come up with what the zoning strategy, which would allow that developer to understand how to take his thoughts and now apply
to our town. So whether this becomes the final document or not, I think that this is very complete >> and there are a lot it's interesting because when you look at her strategy, it's very similar to the master plan strategy. >> Yeah, she refers to the master plan multiple times. Yeah.
>> A lot of crossover in both those documents. >> So the other point I want to make though is that this would give the town some sort of context under which to review the Gordon Woods. >> Right. Exactly. And I think that's the timing is kind of >> perfect for that.
>> Well, I want to make sure it's right. >> So, is it fair to say that she's given us the hasn't quite given us, but very soon to have the information from which we can now apply it to however we so choose.
>> She's not given us the answers. She's given us the material that allows us to maybe move forward with to get those answers, >> base decisions on. Yeah. I I I actually actually like all 222 pages of it.
>> It's a It's a great It's a great tool. No, there's And it's only 101 pages. >> You're exaggerating. >> Maybe I just read it twice. >> You didn't sign the page. >> But another question, Mark, that maybe you can pass on on to her. The state has
a initiative called state um state lands for housing. Um >> and um when I was I just saw the person who's running that night before um and I'll probably see
her again, but um I don't I think I looked when I worked at the state I think I looked at what we have for state lands and it's not even I think it's the DPW and >> the state wants me to have whatever. >> Yeah, the housing trust is done. What?
The >> housing trust is I prepared lots of properties. >> So, it would probably make sense to reach out to the person I can do that the person who's running that program and say, "Have you identified any
parcels in Manchester that are on your list?" Because if they have um they're clearing they're they're clearing a bunch of hoops for those. You know, it would be good to know. I mean, it would be silly for us not to produce
this plan and find out that the state has a parcel on their list. So, um I can, you know, >> we can build something in the ramp of 128. >> Well, it's actually that's the thing to build on of all
their properties they own. >> Okay. We looked at one of those. Okay. Um so, thank you for Okay. Any other comments on the housing production plan? So, Wednesday,
July 16th at >> June 17. June June 17. >> 17th at 6:30. >> Yeah. 17th to 16th. 17th. >> Whatever that Wednesday >> 17th. >> Okay. >> When did you contract with her to start
this series? You recall the date? >> Oh, a couple months ago. >> Yeah. It's incredible. What's the time and night that >> and there will be a Zoom link so if if that's better for people you could um I mean it's great we'll have a few of us
here at least at least in the form um >> it's July yesune >> June I'm looking at your right >> oh okay send out a Let's keep going because we um um that's
let's um talk about our um site walk. Any impressions or thoughts um that people want to bring? So, just for the uh record, we walked um down Bridge Street, down Ashlandav
um up back up Bashland, down Bennett Street, and then into Morse Court went into >> Central Street. We started >> Central Street and um >> Ashlin, >> no. Um the Coburn property, >> Morse,
>> Hill House Square House. Um so um and I think individually perhaps we can go the remainder of Bridge and Bennett and then and that will schedule another time. It will be equally as sized weather I'm sure um to uh to go um the
other direction. But I think hopefully it was useful to think a little bit about where that boundary is. The thing that struck me when I was preparing this is that where um sec where district E starts, district E starts on the coastal
side of the Bennett and bridge intersect and go all the way start. >> Wow. >> On that direction with um and that's uh and then uh the Smith. >> I thought that was interesting.
Sarah, I have one comment or impression of the law. >> I think that area Ashlin uh even more I was surprised at how pleasant Morse quote court was. Yes. >> And the the density
how attractive that area was. It's a place where a young family would love to live. It's safe. >> Kids could be riding on that, you know, circle area. Any case, um, but also the area in front of town hall as you come down. This is all the area that was
developed a very long time ago. Pre-zoning, pre-cars, pre- all that stuff. Yet, it's an excellent example of the density that we want, I think, in town. Even the mixeduse, not of course in Morse Court, not on Nashville, but
definitely out on Central. Um so I think as we look at the rest of um the general district it would be interesting I think to compare what was done a couple hundred years ago to compare what was
done in the last hundred years. >> Sort of setting up a little argument here but we'll see on the next next floor. >> So you know the the m Manchester Museum is doing these talks and they did one about school street. >> Yeah. which a couple of us went to. Um I
wonder if we could ask them ask them to do one on I mean they had a p person who had done some analysis but I wonder it might be interesting to have at least a you know they did a talk that philosophers would be interested in but we would know reach out to come and see.
>> Great. Yeah. Um, we did a little exercise in our office over the last few months, taking all the old drawings, as many old maps as we could find, sandboard maps as well, um, and documenting how the town grew over time.
And it's really, really interesting how the harbor plays into it, how dredging the harbor plays into it, how the train plays into it, and even how 128 plays into it. As an interesting note, the
parking lot that is behind us came into existence because they dealt with the dirt from 128 >> and buildback >> from 128. That was in the >> 1952. >> Wow. So what was there before was water
or marsh? >> Water. Just like prior to the train, >> the area where we now think of the the train stop and uh Beach Street building that was all Jeff Creek >> and that was filled too. >> That was filled as well.
>> Diverted or both? >> Yeah, >> I think the creek is still under there somewhere. >> Been covered >> underground. Um but how that area developed over time compared to this is totally different. different attitude to
the street, different way of dealing with cars because they didn't exist 200 years ago. Um, so anyway, I think we should look at that. >> Yeah, I think the area we walk almost all of the houses homes are right, you know, front right on the sidewalk and
the paring is behind or or to the side. It makes for a lovely >> feeling of just >> and so those houses are non-conforming and that might be something we think about. But not all. Well, probably most
>> right. >> Probably 20 foot setback to the quarant interesting to experience >> shutting down Leading Street in that little stretch. >> Oh my gosh. >> Getting around in this town. >> So, the general district is 6,000 square
feet area, 60 ft of frontage, 50 ft width. Five feet of front edge, 10 feet of side back m of them probably that >> and rears 10 feet. But I would say most of them on the front
>> the five foot front >> probably 25% are right on the street >> especially on this side of >> bridge streets only. Why not? Most some were right on the sidewalk. >> Maybe not 20 minutes, maybe two or
three. >> So, um I mean the tricky thing what people loved just all that variety, all the difference that happened over a couple hundred years. So, how do you create zoning that allows for that much
difference without it all getting to be the same? >> The trouble is zoning. >> Yeah. design brigade for everyone. >> The other thing to look at to your point I think is that
what has actually been built downtown in the general district >> under our zoning >> and let's take a look at what our zoning has created. Um, in other words, uh, >> what has been built impact? >> Not much.
>> Not much. I think we'll find out whether the spitting that the district will have any impact too. >> So, there's the, uh, the Cape Savings Bank. >> Yeah. >> Which isn't urban planning disaster. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> But our zoning,
>> right? Well, in Harbor Point, >> Harbor Point was in that time frame, but it's totally against the zoning area. I don't know what they did for Harbor Point. >> No. Do does anybody know >> because it's a district and it sure I
mean it's the opposite of a good >> question. We don't want to know. >> Well, we're gonna be talking a lot about that. Um >> there is the next sidewalk. You want to do it at 5:30
on the 22nd. >> Does that work for people or is that >> really? >> Yeah, it would be 90. >> I I would This is for the rest of the district >> or some some portion there.
>> Okay. Um I would like to get everybody interested in doing a similar sort of walk for the D1 district. Yeah. because there's some stuff going on in the district, some of which is good and some of which is not so good. And there's a
whole need to think about what we do there because people are having an empty lot turn into four homes, four big homes >> and um and it's allowed by right. So no
design review, no process, >> etc. So I kind of want to get that on everybody's list along with the general district more >> the general because we have a planning grant. Yeah. Why we're focusing on the general but I think we I think the concept of scale mate is an important I
think uh you know the the variety of style um uh classic style whatever that you know New England style whatever that means. Um but there but we still have some modern in the in the district or in the
adjacent um but I think for me scale is one of those pieces that and that's what I liked about what they're do Tom is doing here feels like a small scale small scale
>> um okay so we'll try for 5:30 before the next meet the meeting in June the 20 the next two weeks from today. Okay. Um just briefly, zoning reorganization project. We mentioned that the town
clerk has a grant to do some reorganization. Mark and I met um with Christine to review um the preliminary um outline.
Um Mark made some suggestions about grouping things, so more to come on that. Um, in that discussion, we realize the subdivision rules, which haven't been touched in a long time, all reference the old zoning um sections.
>> Oh jeez. >> Um, so they were going to think about how we should handle. >> Is that a Bible or is that just >> regulations? Those are regulations. It would change after Yes. public hearing.
They I believe they're they are going the company will will uh put together a list of what needs to get changed and give us a draft that we can subsequently review. >> But we want if we're going to change it,
we might as change it to the new >> but that takes town meeting and then the to approve it and >> we can change regulations twice. But >> yeah, >> um so I read the Browski memo again and I was amazed how much would actually
>> Yeah. Yeah, I didn't see any big things except the non-conforming plan was the big one. >> Yeah, the cluster zoning. >> Yeah, >> residential cluster. >> Yeah, that that comes up in the housing production. >> Yep. >> Yeah, I was I was pleasantly surprised. Not surprised, but
>> Well, pleased. >> Pleased. Yeah. Um Okay. Um let's see if we can get get minutes quickly done. Um approval of minutes for March 30th. That was a working group and I think only Sarah and Sandy can approve
that because the other person there was Sue. Um so um I've reviewed them. So um I'll move and Sandy will second >> I >> I
>> uh the joint meeting with a select board. Um, I sent that back or that I amended our section because we made a motion to approve the um to uh recommend the um
transfer of land at Glosski lunch to zero Elm Street and it wasn't reflected in the minutes. So that's the amendment there. Um, everybody can vote except for Sandy. I believe everybody was there at that joint meeting except not John.
>> I was actually at one of the joint meetings. I was >> not usual. Yeah. >> Um at least that you not list of minutes. So I'll take a motion to everything else was sort of procedural in that way. Um >> to approve the planning board section of
the joint meeting um April 23rd as um amended with the reference to that. >> Second. >> Second. Were you there at that meeting? >> I wasn't. >> I'm not sure you were there. >> Yeah, >> I think Brian was also not there. Um,
okay. Those who were present, all in favor? >> I Okay. And then, uh, May 26th, the last last meeting. Um, oh, that's the other. I know what it was. They had Eli was made the motion. That's the change. And
I changed it to Chris because Eli was sitting. Okay. Um May 26. Um that was last meeting. Um any changes? >> That was fine. >> Okay. Um I'll take a motion. >> Second.
>> Um Sandy was not there. All in favor? >> Opposed? >> Okay. Um okay. Um great. It being 7:30. Um, I'm going to open the continued public hearings with 17 Ashland Dav
special permit to modify an existing wireless communications tower. Um, we have Brett Smith and Michael Benton. And we had some followup from the last
meeting that Mark and uh, others. So, maybe Mark you start us off and >> Okay. >> Give us an update. Um well so a couple things to update the board. Um one is and it was in your packets there were
three decisions. Um the original decision in year 2000 and it was reapproved um in
for sprint in 2002. And then um they allowed the um extend the height in 2011 uh by 10 ft. Um so those are the three
that we've been able to find from the uh clerk's office as far as approvals go. Um the the one in 2002
did require a security bond for the uh for two things. One is for the tower itself and that that uh required $10,000 for the removal of the tower. also required $3,000.
I believe it was three for for spring to remove the uh their equipment should um uh they have to. Um,
so, um, so we looked through the treasur's office. We were able to find that there is a bond. We haven't been able to confirm it's still in place. Um,
uh, for the removal of the tower and it's for $25,000. So at some point they must have come back to the planning board or either a modification or a discussion
in which the tower um bond or the removal of the tower was increased to $25,000. So it was um the previous one was $25,000 and that was in 2018.
So, um, >> that's the most recent one. >> So, that's the most recent one that the treasurer's office had. >> Fortunately, it looks like all the pages may not have been there because I cannot
find an ex um a date for expiration. This may or may not >> expire, but we still have the money. >> So, there's still a bond Uh we never received the treasur's
office has not received anything um any notice um um from you know saying that we're we are going to not renew a bond or not extend it or
anything as such. So appears that it might still be in place. >> Right. Mhm. >> Okay. >> So, >> and that's to a company called Vertical Bridge. Um,
>> that's surprising. >> So, out of Boca Raton or >> site, >> okay. Um, how about um Brett or um you look like you've unmuted so um
I'll let you reintroduce yourself and uh yeah provide us with your updates. >> Good evening members of the board. It's good to see you all again. Um my name is Brett Smith. I am an attorney at Shad Schwarz and Fenton. Our office address
is 1441 Main Street in Springfield, Massachusetts. I'm joined tonight by my colleague, attorney Michael Fenton. We are here tonight on behalf of the applicant Celco Partnership doing business as Verizon Wireless. As a little recap um from the last
meeting, Verizon submitted its eligible facilities request under section 6409 of the federal spectrum act uh for the modification of the existing monopole at 17 Ashland Avenue. Um the purpose of the
modification is to enhance the coverage in the area and um to most significantly increase the 5G coverage and service in the Bay Area um in which the monopole is located.
Uh the proposed modification entails removing three existing antennas and installing six new antennas, three diplexers, additional and necessary hardware and cables, as well as expanding the width
of the monopole by 6 in um for the portion above the yard arms or the crossbar um to the top of the monopole. And uh as some followup, we had submitted a supplemental response letter
to the board um where we addressed some of the items that were brought up at the prior meeting and uh we'd be happy to further discuss any of those items if the board had any additional questions based on our responses. >> Hey, can you just summarize those
responses for us again so we have make sure everybody um they didn't have the chance to read it? >> Sure. So, um, one of the items that was brought up was a question as to whether the flag would still be able to be
flown, um, following the, uh, modification and the expansion. And we were able to confirm that once the modification would be completed, um, all of the hooks and attachment mechanisms would be added back on and the flag
would still be able to remain and be flowing from the monopole. Um, additionally, we were asked to confirm that it wouldn't be possible to expand the width of the monopole. Um, that additional 6 in for the entirety of
the monopole. And in the um supplemental response letter, we did include some photographs of the base of the monopole which show that due to the proximity of the existing building structure and some other additional um equipment that are
located uh at the base of the monopole. There really is not room to be able to expand the width of the monopole at the base. Um so it was deemed that that wasn't a feasible option. And additionally um
we had looked into um the question of the shity um as we are requesting a waiver of the requirement for an additional shity for tower removal. Um Verizon's stance is that there's an
existing um financial shy in place for the tower removal and since Verizon is only a colllocator on the pole and they don't own the pole itself, they would only be responsible for their equipment and um don't believe that a financial
charity for such removal costs of the tower itself would be applicable to um their proposed modification before Yeah. Who is I mean if the >> Yeah, I was I'm trying to understand
that particular question and that is Verizon is the you you're renting the tower essentially presumably. >> So Verizon Yeah. So they're a collocator. So they rent basically like a portion of the pole. they rent certain space on the pole where their equipment
is located. So, every different carrier that is has equipment on the pole basically leases that space um whatever space that they require to be able to attach their equipment.
>> And who owns the pole? >> I believe it's vertical bridge. Okay. There's a letter of authorization that was submitted from Vertical Bridge.
>> Can we extend the uh duration of the bond as part of the special permit? Um well I think that the bond needs to be in place probably um due to previous approvals. Um,
unfortunately we don't have the specific the clerk couldn't find the specific filing of and it was increased to $25,000. So, um,
I don't have that, >> but we have a bond for $25,000 for the removal of this pole. We just don't know if they don't remove it, if there's a time that that we have to get it back. Probably >> I guess doesn't expire.
>> Well, that's the thing. Bonds usually expire at some point. Um and then uh but if you do request it let's say it's no longer it's a defunct poll needs to be removed you usually it says here you
have 12 months you have to take action within 12 months of the cancellation of the bond to draw on the bond. So >> I guess can we make that decision part of this approval for this maybe a fix
that to this decision so that they're you know 10 years from now when Verizon comes back and wants to do it again we have a paper tra >> that's legal question >> can you can you reach out to vertical
bridge and ask for >> copy of the paperwork Oh, we will have to do that. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, that that's still an unresolved issue. Um >> uh and then there's the question of the
order pe um I'm sorry, did I interrupt your going through the um >> you know what I think we could say? We could say that this permit is contingent on there being a bond and that makes it Verizon's problem to make sure it's
there. Yeah, >> they'd probably have an easier time getting in touch with the owner, >> I would think. Yeah, yeah, I think so. >> We would we would accept that condition. Um, we would just ask the board to provide some level of specificity
regarding the nature, value, and extent of the bond. >> Sounds like it's 25,000. we can provide the the >> certainly the amount >> 2018 whatever um documentation. >> So okay um that seems reasonable. What
about um the uh design? Any comments or questions about the matter of the width? >> No. It's almost insane. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm just curious who files the who um
who actually Oh, uh maybe Nick can answer this question. Who puts the flag up and down? Just out of curiosity. >> Hi everyone. >> I I'm not attending tonight to uh be in in favor or opposed to anything. Just
simply as the representative of the property, uh if you guys have any questions, I can answer. Um the flag is a responsibility of the doc master currently. So he's he follows that, gets it gets it put up and down according to the uh you
know half staff's different things that you find on on websites. Um if you have any other questions, I'm somewhat familiar with the lease and everything throughout the year. I could I could try and answer for you. I unfortunately I don't know much about the bond issue, but I could certainly look through
paperwork and see if I could find anything for you. >> Okay. Well, maybe between you and Verizon and um I I'm gonna after this meeting go into the the depths of the other room sometimes.
>> True. >> Um I was on the board when the first one was approved. Um okay, any other comments from the board or questions from the board? Thank you, Nick, for that. Your last name is >> uh Elides.
>> Great. Thank you. Um any uh other questions from the board or comments? Um any questions or comments from the public? >> I'm not seeing any public >> JB triple screen. >> Um okay, hearing none. Um
>> three blocks. >> Mark, I've closed the public hearing portion of the um >> yes. Uh, so I'm going to take a motion to close the public portion of the hearing um for 17 Ashland A um,
uh, special permit to modify a wireless communications tab. So move second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> Okay. Now, um, so then the question is, um, does anybody want to make a motion for a, um, special permit, um, approval?
Or Mark, do you want to make a suggestion for how we would proceed? >> Um, well, you need to proceed uh, either tonight or within by the next meeting. Um, there's a 60-day because
it's a U what's the term? Exempt exempt. Uh, It's a uh certain eligible facilities request need to make your decision in uh 60 days
which would expire on the 22nd of next of uh this month. So >> we better do it tonight. >> Yeah. So you kind of need to do it tonight unless they want to wait until the next meeting and give you an extension of a of a day. So um
>> are there any there aren't any conditions other than the bond that we need to worry about? >> No. So, may I suggest that we approve the special permit um as presented with um
one condition that uh Verizon the applicant um clarify uh this condition, the state of the existing bond and that it remain in place for the removal of the tower at the end of its life.
in the amount of uh the existing in the existing amount that is currently held believed to be 25,000. >> Um >> okay. >> Yep. >> Um any other conditions that
>> um and that Mark would draft this and uh sign it. Okay. Um uh any you moved you? Yeah. >> I suggested motion. So you >> I'm second to date. >> Okay. Any other questions, concerns? Um
and I think technically you missed the first hearing and haven't watched the video, >> right? And you missed the first hearing and so um if we discontinued you guys would have watch would watch the video from the last one and then you could vote. So we have enough votes. Um
>> can I ask one last question? Absolutely. And I don't want to open a can of worms or anything. just a curiosity if I'm looking at it through the window, which is which is great. Um, but to to do to make such a change, would keeping it the same size but
making it three feet taller be um an option? And I'm I'm thinking more ahead to 10 years later when they're asking us to make it six more inches bigger. Um, so it is there a a reason why it becomes
thicker rather than taller? >> I um I would say because of the way that the um lease arrangements work. Each carrier leases a specific like footage and portion of the bowl. So Verizon has
the lease rights to the portion where their equipment currently is. it would have to be um the tower owner's application and decision to increase the overall height of the pole. Um and that
would be something separate from what Verizon would be able to be applying for without um the cooperation of the tower owner at this point. >> Great question though. It's a great
question. probably structurally then you get a whole new structural analysis. >> Well, more more complicated that now they have to lease a different >> Yeah. More more comp >> air rights. >> Okay. So, we have a motion for to
approve the special permit with a single uh bond. Um any other discussion? Um all in favor? Um and I wait no and then oppose and I'm gonna say two extent extensions because stay at the end so you haven't had a
chance to watch the video. >> Um clarify. Thank you. So it passes. So if you miss a meeting on a special permit, you do have to go back and watch the video and then sign something with the clerk before you vote. And so we're
fine on that tonight. But for example, you both were here for Deer Hill. that's going to continue next meeting. So, you'll be able to but if you were to miss the next meeting or one of us misses the next meeting and we can watch the video, sign at the town clerk and then we can vote. But, and that's why
it's so important to have associate members because sometimes, you know, at the ne at the deer hill, we already have one member who can't vote on it. Might have it's summer, people might be traveling. So, associate members are are important. Um, great. Thank you. Um
Brett and Michael um >> and Nick >> Nick and Nick um welcome to stick around and listen to the rest of our meeting which is going to be quite short but uh you'll be in touch with Mark about the um bond issue. >> Great. >> Thank you.
>> Sounds good. Thank you for your time. Appreciate it. >> Okay. Um correspondence. I did have one uh correspondence with um John Carlson who had raised um
uh expressed interest in the driveway regulations at town meeting. I forwarded or Kendall forwarded them to him and he did uh get back to us. I'll put it in the next meetings um uh packet, but he
said two omissions were line of sight regulations. Um and there's no recommendation how close a driveway can be to an intersection. I think you missed that. >> Yes, that it is in there. It's 20 ft. It's already in the bylaw, right? >> And I went and talked to Chuck about the
line of sight and he's like our streets are 20 miles an hour. your line of sight is really based on DOT. >> Well, he says check mass DOT and >> yeah, >> he said he said it's it's really not an
issue. >> Okay. So, you know what I'll do is I'll just get back to him and say he >> um so that was the only correspondence that I haven't um I also forwarded you the um uh presentation by the JG um folks about
Gordon Woods. Um >> and there was a communication from Lorraine Iavone about uh Gordon Woods. I don't know if everybody got that but sure that >> people I think she sent me >> um
>> so and then there was a couple of here we get correspondents from other towns so that you know as as we give them um notice of public hearings and zoning changes as well um other things. So, one thing came up
today and uh >> scratches. >> Yeah. So, I'm trying to think the best way to say this. Um so, one of the local businesses had an issue with uh their um landlord about signage
the windows and somebody else had an issue with signage uh that they had put up when they moved in uh like a year ago. Um, and they're also in the historic district. And so after
spending a half hour on the phone with Rosemary talking about signage, kind of came to the conclusion that well, basically we don't require number one, a signed permit. And secondly, if we did require a signed permit, that's where we
would require a sign off from the historic commission in order to receive your permit. if you're in you're in a historic district. So, um right now our sign bylaw doesn't it just has certain limitations, but there's no requirement
for a permit. Um, so, um, I think, uh, that is another one of those little zoning, it's in the zoning bylaw that I can draft and we can, uh, put on the agenda along with a couple of the other
small ones that we already talked about so that we can um, uh, submitted for the fall town meeting. So, um, even if we don't rework the whole signed bylaw, because it is pretty tight as far as what it allows,
and I haven't heard a lot of clamoring to allow lots of other different types of signs. So, I think it's just the process needs to be clarified. So, I think it would be helpful for you to do a first draft because
>> it seems simple, but my guess is that there might be >> unforeseen. >> Yes. >> Um I know that the sign bylaw would came up um around temporary banners at the schools and
Sweeney Park and sponsors of sports teams. um because I think those are a gray area for example um and that I've I think it's like old
temporary signs or some I don't remember the nuance there but that's an example of you know like something we might not think about. So let's draft something and start to figure out what the things are. There are other things like you want the specific exemptions for signs
at recreation facilities that are like designed for the uh off the attendees not for the street so to speak. Uh you know we can always add some exemption for that
you know just to clarify policy you know other types of things. Okay, great. >> Mark, how is that handled in other towns? Is it a DBA or design review board? >> So, it varies and in in a lot of
communities, it's just simply a signed permit and there is a multi-phase sign bylaw. So, um you know where where you have lots of development and you have different types of districts. So you'll have a downtown district, you'll have a highway business district, and you'll
have some other little village district. So you might have uh signs that'll be by district and there'll be different requirements and you can have different numbers of signs and then you'll have you might allow certain types of signs to be turned. So you have sections on
internally or neon or other types of things. So all of a sudden what we might have in half a page in another community will be five or six pages because uh but generally it's it doesn't really go to a board. Um you know unless maybe you're
in a historic district so >> we don't have a lot of signs. >> No you don't. We simply say advertising or other signs shall be permitted elsewhere in this bylaw shall subject to applicable provisions of the general bylaws.
>> I didn't get a chance though. >> And then the second is flash. No flashing animated or internally illuminated signs should be permitted in any district. No illuminated sign of any kind should be permitted in a residential district. And the third section is real estate signs not over
six square feet in advertising uh property for sale. So then the question is in the general bylaws. >> Oh okay. So we'll see what >> we'll see. But if there are other things that you want
should just toss in there. >> Okay. >> Great. Any other things? >> I move we >> Chris moves to adjurnn. Um >> I will second that. All in favor? >> I
don't know. We'll see. I'm going have to go to the store first.