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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=skUV6Q0LQvA

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Now, uh we are um going to open the uh regular planning board meeting of um July 13th. Welcome, everybody. Um take a motion to open the Or I guess I do a roll call first. Sandy? >> Yeah.

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>> Matt Trahan? >> Here. >> Here. >> Brian Fry? >> Here. >> Sarah Creighton? >> Here. >> Chris Olney? >> Here. >> John Harden? >> Here. >> Brenda Burstar? Um so I think Deer Hill was first on our agenda. >> I'm surprised it was on the agenda cuz

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we told Mark we were going to not send it until next month. >> Right, but I think we continued the public hearing, so we have to uh take a motion to open the public hearing. Um first of all, let me just make sure see who's online. Um

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Can somebody online um ensure that you can hear us by unmuting and saying yes? >> Yep, I can hear you. This is Brian Leland. >> Excellent, thank you so much. Um it's always good to check before we get too deep into things.

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Okay, so um I'll take a uh motion to open the public hearing for uh what number Deer Hill? >> One. >> One Deer Hill Road um uh So >> So moved.

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>> Okay. Second. >> All in favor to open the hearing? >> I. >> I. >> I. >> Okay, great. And now um we're going to take a motion to continue the public hearing to our next meeting, which is July >> 27th.

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>> 27th. >> 27th. >> Uh so I'll take a motion to continue the public hearing for one Deer Hill um >> Yep, so moved. >> Second. >> Second. [clears throat] >> Um all in favor?

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>> I. >> I. >> Close the hearing. >> Oh, no, we already continued. I guess that's fine. Okay, >> so the next thing on the agenda struggling with this screen again. Um is uh 14

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14 um >> Summer Street >> Summer Street. And so I'll take a motion to open the continued public hearing for 14 Summer Street. >> So moved. >> Second. All in favor? >> Aye.

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>> Okay, thank you. Um welcome, Tom. Good afternoon. Um Great, if you can bring us up to speed on where things are and Mark, you have some documents for us to review, I believe. >> Yeah. So um last week we received our

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peer review comments from Bobrick. Uh we met on Friday last week and just kind of went through the storm water design. Um kind of how it's had it set up. Um I think there's a few things that we need to tweak, but we're kind of on the same page. Uh one thing that was kind of big is requiring soil testing. So we are

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going to try to get soil testing done for the three BMPs, you know, during if we can do blasting or we can do soil testing on a machine on site then. Um and then yeah, just working through the process with Greg at Bobrick and um tweaking the design.

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>> Can you clarify for folks who Greg is? >> Uh Greg St. Louis. He's a reviewing engineer, one of the reviewing engineers in Bobrick Engineering and Construction. >> And he works on behalf of That is that right? >> He is the third party peer reviewer here in the other town.

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>> Yeah. Uh so people understand. >> Yeah, they do now. >> Um Uh okay. Um and Mark, you talked to Chuck um about where we are with this. >> [clears throat] >> Yeah. Yeah, we're

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in their review right now. Um as as before, uh once the issues are resolved, they will issue the permit. He said right now though he can't issue the permit. >> Yeah, we have to do so one of the big

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things is soil testing on site. It's typical for any type of storm water that we have soil testing done. So we'll just do that when we can get a machine on site. So I mean I'm just working through the process with them. Soil testing will give us a little bit more information to

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see if anything changes, but we're pretty optimistic with the design. >> Okay. So Mark, you have put together some draft conditions. Maybe you can walk us through those. >> Yeah, sure. >> That's what we just handed out. Are

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there any copies for the Um >> I have one for the applicants and one for the others. Want to share? I only need that's for the time. >> It's not to look on. We can >> I'll split. One for the town the room and one for

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the the others uh The condition would be on the third page. So I guess the bottom of the second page. The first condition um which would be for a 24-hour notice

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to uh abutters prior to ledge hammering or blasting on the site. Second condition would erosion control shall be installed as shown on the plan and the swell constructed along the

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Google property line prior to the work being done on the site. The third one is no parking shall be allowed on the westbound side of Summer Street. That's the same side where the sidewalk is and no in the sidewalk shall

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not be blocked. Um the applicant shall comply with the traffic management plan approved by Mass Highway. So, they have in getting their driveway permit, they had to submit a management plan to Mass Highway. If you

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want, you can explain maybe >> What the management plan is? >> It's shutting down one lane, holding a police detail, and it's the proper signage. It went through DOT, went back and forth through DOT, so we have everything up to date with that. >> Um the next one is the wall heights

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exceed 4 ft, a fall protection fence shall be installed and shall be a black metal fence of wrought iron in appearance. Uh which is similar to the condition for

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208 Summer Street. Um if the applicant cannot construct a boulder wall in any location, they shall return to the board for review and approval of the new wall design. Um all exterior lighting shall be dark

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sky compliant. And then here we go with the storm water. An application for a storm water permit has been submitted to the Department of Public Works and a comment letter generated. If significant alteration of the lot is required to

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comply with the storm water uh bylaw, the applicant shall return to the board for a modification of this permit. The storm water permit shall be received prior to the issuance of a building permit.

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>> Would that be the foundation permit? >> Well, there it goes, that. We can clarify that more if you want. >> I mean, once you're doing the foundation, you're kind of in it. >> Yes, yes. >> So, I would say the foundation permit.

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>> Where were we? >> again, Sarah. What are you >> Aren't Isn't that Don't they sometimes issue a foundation permit before they >> Oh, yeah. They issue an early foundation permit. >> Yeah. So, the foundation and the the site, I mean, the They uh >> Well, I could say I mean, it is a

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building permit. Could say any building permit. >> it is right now, they can't they can't build anything until they get the stormwater. >> Okay. >> Is that the intent? >> Yes. >> And that's then it's correct. >> Okay. So, the foundation permit is a subset of the building permit?

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>> Um yeah, foundation. Yeah, it's definitely part of it, but they generally they release a foundation permit. It starts the earthwork, it starts the foundation before you issue the infrastructure going on. >> You You can just say any building permit. >> yeah, I'll add that. I'll make that change.

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>> Leave it building permit. >> Okay. Um the next one is if blasting of lead is required, then a blasting permit shall be obtained from the Manchester by the Sea Fire Department. Um Summer Street shall be kept free of mud and dirt during construction.

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Uh site construction hours shall comply with the applicable town bylaw. Uh land use management department shall conduct an inspection of landscaping prior to the issuance of the occupancy permit. >> So, from our minutes last time, the um

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we said that the DPW needed to review the stormwater. Need to clarify the modeling assumptions regarding land cover. I don't know if he >> Oh, oh, we did that that had to do with the um uh

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prior to doing the pre and post calculations. And you remember they used the assumption that all all forest land. >> Right. Okay. Investigation of historic drainage infrastructure. Remember when any portion crosses the subject property. Were you able to do

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anything on that? >> Can I just comment on the uh uh >> Yeah. >> So, in one of the peer review comments from the from the uh reviewing engineer, Greg, he's he was surprised by the amount of ledge in the front of the property. So, he did suggest being a

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little bit less conservative with those areas, but that was his opinion. So, um it would go from a hydraulic hydraulic soil group B to a hydraulic soil group D. For the especially when you walk up the front of the driveway where the ledge outcropping is apparent.

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So, that was one of the first comments from Greg. >> Does that make any difference to the design? >> So, it would be assuming that there would be more runoff >> [clears throat] >> than it there would be. So, a group B means there's more runoff cuz no soil is

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being absorbed through the site. So, in our preliminary design, we assumed group B because we found soil testing the rear of the lot for the septic. We found that okay soils there. So, we used that soil group throughout the site.

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So, he's saying just split it up a little bit. We said we would look into both. >> Okay. Um How about any um historic drainage infrastructure? Has

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that been found? >> I have not found anything on that on record plans. I think next call I should probably ask Chuck about that. He may have something, but >> So, Mark, if they do find

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as they continue to move things around, if there are his historic drainage, we should make Chuck aware that that's been removed. >> If it's town it's a town drainage thing. If it was somebody who ran a line

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>> But it would But wouldn't that be a demonstration of pre-construction runoff conditions? That's the question. >> Oh, I see what >> See, I mean, if it if there is a historic drainage system, >> would it affect

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>> It would then the model is uh so >> We'll see if it's encountered, then we can look into >> revise the model to reflect the the fact that the water's coming off of the hill into a pipe, not overland.

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>> Yeah. >> So, um can we communicate that to Chuck? >> Mhm. >> I think. Um and then a communication plan for neighbors regarding construction schedules, particularly for hammering activities. Um and with consideration for

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uh restricted hours. So, we you put in there that that abutters will be notified for um >> last last night. >> 24 hour notice. 24 hours, but um I think that the point was a large was a sort of a regular

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>> Yeah, sorry. 24 hour notice should be given to abutters prior to ledge hammering or blasting. >> So, I think this I'm going to elaborate a little bit more um uh sort of a, you know, look ahead for

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construction so that neighbors can And this is just This is to abutters. Um and then the [clears throat] neighbors are more broadly that are affected by hammering, jackhammering more than just the abutters. So, then how do we address that?

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Ideas about how we >> Well, it's got to be some type of communication plan, right? Through criteria that is included in that. Is it when the blast it whatever the um solution is, if it's blasting or

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hammering, there's got to be a certain period of time notification for it when that's going to happen. Is that >> Do you need a distance from the site? >> I would say maybe it'd be a voluntary thing where people who want to know what the >> Right, can receive can sign up to get an

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email communication. >> So, if the um and that the planner would be included on the those um communications. >> So, definitely, how do you make people aware of that? >> Send out notice.

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>> To to how many? I mean, what's the radius of people that >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand. >> You need a radius. >> Yeah. >> Is the abutters list a radius? >> It's the abutters and the abutters to abutters. >> just >> Sometimes through the radius. >> Well, it's 300 ft. It's zoning.

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>> Yes, you already have an abutter. >> [laughter] >> But, um >> Um what's 300 ft worth? >> Is the abutter the radius around the property? >> Ah. >> Or abutter notification? >> I see.

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Okay. So, it's not immediately up against >> Well, it's the immediate abutters cuz obviously they're within 300 ft, but if the lots along the perimeter are really big lots, then like what I was saying is it doesn't go very far. It might be

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It may may not be an extra lotter, so. >> So I think what do we say to the butter voluntary email communication update will be by it to the abutters list for the special

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permit. I mean that's a um And that they shall be notified um >> Notified by email or is there a formal >> I think >> certified letter thing because >> I think a certified letter before you're going to do something on a construction site probably unreasonable. >> So we So

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how are they going to know the emails of everybody? >> Well people they need to just >> I think if they send a notice [clears throat] to all the abutters that there's a list to sign up for to be notified about pending you know, blasting or hammering on the

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site and then they they reply to that with an email address. >> Right. >> And then they and they're going to do work, they send out the notice. So they send it to the abutters and if the abutters want to

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talk to their neighbors and have them added, they can do that as well and that way everybody within a reasonable area will know. >> Great. >> And can we have that copied maybe to Kendall so you don't get >> Mhm. >> a million emails and a million more emails.

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>> Yes. >> But we'll ask What's her title? Assistant Planner Assistant to the Planner. Whatever. Okay. >> Yes. Clerk Land Use Clerk. >> Land Use Clerk. >> Mhm. >> Um so that that so that there's the town

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is also and then she can decide based on it whether it needs to be forwarded to the DPW or um others. Okay. Um And the last one from the minutes last time we coordinated with local police regarding traffic safety during active

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construction so we can be done with that. Um other questions or comments from the board? Um Are there any exemptions that we need we have um uh We need to vote on a exemption from the

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financial analysis. >> Um I'm sure that we need to make some input before we back out and come back. >> What? >> Where is that? >> That's in the that's one of the requirements for special permit. >> Um I

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So that's one of the special permit requirements that what you say in your findings and stuff like that. Um Yeah. Consistent with Um

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So we generally what we do is rather than because there's a whole another list criteria we say that it's consistent with section 6.4.1 the purpose and intent of the earth removal bylaw. Then we say it's in conformance with section 6.4

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generally and section 12.5.2 the special permit criteria. >> Okay. Um Okay, any other comments from the board with no? Um I'll take public comment. Um anybody

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in the room want to make additional comments? Um How about anybody online? Um Just go ahead and unmute. We don't have a lot of people. Anybody wants to make any comments. Um, hearing none. Okay, any other

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comments from the board? >> I have a question. >> I I have I have a question on item eight. Um, if things turn out to be different on the site than anticipated, who decides what a significant road

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operation is? Does that go through the Department of Public Works? Is it Mark? >> It's Mark. >> Or the building inspector is it his? >> The building inspector gets this. >> Yeah. And there And there clear guidelines about what significant is.

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>> Not necessarily written guidelines, though. So, um >> I think the big question is these boulder We want boulder walls beyond that is cement. >> Mhm. >> Like I was saying. >> I mean, this is

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I mean, obviously if this is just it's sounds it's just a house with a driveway and then obviously there's not a lot to change. >> Right. I think it's about boulder walls that are >> Unless they start changing the driveway location, that's significant. The house

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moves, that's significant. You know, you have six tiers of walls instead of four, that's significant. But I mean, there's not a lot of other things to modify. site >> Okay. Okay. I think we're okay.

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Um Okay. Um, any other comments besides those modifications? Um, hearing any Okay. Uh, the thing The first thing I do is to close the public hearing. Public por- uh input portion of the public hearing. So, I'll take a motion

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to close the public input por- portion of the public hearing. >> So moved. >> Second. All in favor? >> I. >> Opposed. Okay. Um any other discussion by the board on um the conditions as we've discussed?

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And I will when I sign it I will go through it um carefully. Okay, hearing none, I will entertain a motion to um approve the um uh the special permit for 214 Summer Street

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and issue the uh decision as drafted on uh presented to us on July 13th. Um Take a motion. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Second. >> Um all any more discussion?

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All in favor? >> I. >> Chair votes yes. Um all opposed? Great. Uh and now I will take a motion to close the public hearing. >> So moved. >> Second. Um all in favor? >> I. >> Opposed. Okay, great. Thank you

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everybody and thank you for coming and showing interest. Hopefully this will uh hopefully this is moving. Um Thank you Tom and um the stormwater um plan will be attached to this. Be available for the neighbors

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to look at that? >> Yeah, it'll be uh >> For the public record. >> attached to the decision, but it'll be available in the office for people to collect. The final plan will be submitted along with a copy of the permit, so that's >> So it does have a third-party review. I

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think that's really helpful I to me. I mean we have an engineer at town an engineer works with the town to look at the plans on our behalf cuz and on your behalf to um to to try to address these issues.

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>> Great, thank you. All right. Thanks. Um Oh. So Um Okay. Is Karen coming? >> I'm here. >> Oh, great.

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>> I'm sorry. >> That's the one I second this question. >> And did you >> Oh, Karen, you're a person. >> What do you want me >> No wonder I wanted I'm looking for you on the on the screen. >> She's here. >> That's right. >> What's up? >> That's right.

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>> Hey, got to pick up my head. Um do you want to go over here? >> Sure. So you sent me a presentation. Do you want me to pull that up? >> We all have it. >> Oh, good. Well, for the listening public.

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I do have it on my screen. You ask her to at um if I did fire anybody. >> We're just uh >> Push it out there. >> Go ahead, please. >> It'll work. >> Should I >> She's going to She's going to upload the presentation. >> We're going to turn it on tomorrow

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night. >> That's right. Um Tonight we're focusing on the housing strategy. Um Yeah, good. So I did include a slide just kind of notice talked about

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before which was kind of been targeting housing needs um with the orientation still focusing on rental housing for a variety of considerations. Um I should mention that in the plan I

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do include references to the two large 40B's. But as far as production goals I focused on proactive strategies related to small infill

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developments and have not included those developments as part of the annual housing production goals. Um which are 11 units per year based on that half percent of the year round housing stock just to kind of give you a point of

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reference. Um But as we discussed in past there's rationale for certainly including home ownership as part of the housing agenda for downsizing and for um

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starter homes as well as uh handicapped accessibility and supportive services. Um I did I included a slide oh third slide oops sorry that's me. Um so question I have um

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about why is rental housing the top priority? Because um the the greatest housing need are basically those earning some out of the little 50 or 60% of their median income.

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They're the ones that are highest cost burdens. It's not that we're not focused on a wider range of housing needs even those about the 80% AMI level. But if you're looking at really the most uh the population with the greatest needs.

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You're talking about rental housing, not home ownership. Also, if you're going to leverage your your resources, almost all state financing for affordable housing is rental. Also, as far as getting to the 10% all

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units, as you know, in a rental 40B or development count as opposed to only the actual uh units in a home ownership development. Without being able to leverage other state financing, you are

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you are basically stuck with providing cap financing on home ownership units that can be high per unit because basically it's the housing trust funds or CPA money. Unless you're dealing with a larger development where

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some of the market units cross-subsidize the affordable ones. Invariably, you're talking about a smaller scale of development, therefore fewer units in a particular time frame. So, that's that's why we also talked about a loss of rental units in the past

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over the past couple decades. 0% vacancy rates, um uh so, that was the kind of rationale for going with with rental um as opposed to home ownership as a top priority. Nevertheless, we do mention

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that starter housing is is really needed. Um and and in the community as well as opportunities for downsizing. Um so, in a nutshell, that's why we've included rental housing. The other thing, and I think this is

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kind of an important underlying piece to this. Even affordable in you know, even affordable units at or below 80% area median income on rental housing, um

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it needed. It's once again the lower income tiers that are important and you can get that with certain financing rental housing. And the 30% AMI and there are people we document in the

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plan, numbers for it earning at or below 30% area median income spending more than half their income on housing. They're in the community. So providing, you know, potentially having a mission-driven partner, a non-profit, targeting housing

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to these lower income groups using the multiple layers of of financing makes sense here um as opposed to some of these larger 40Bs. Um >> So Karen, I have a question, a follow-up question. So

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uh I haven't I saw that the revised draft came in. I haven't had a chance to go through all of it, but do you make a recommendation for how many units are needed for each of the income tiers that we're talking about? So

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>> No, I didn't break it down that level. I can do that if you want, but I didn't. Um it's you know, basically we're talking about 11 units per year. Um and with a with a reference that units

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at the lower income tiers are needed more uh than anything in this community. And they're they're the most challenging to develop without a doubt. Um but uh that's um you know, where the need is.

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>> Looks like we lost like 167 since 1990. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's gone. Yeah, it yeah, it's >> But when you that's 35 years. So that I mean that is uh on that number alone is a lot. What I mean is

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>> friend. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Um I I have a question for you about the sort of administrative reason for the rental unit versus the ownership. So if

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there's an infill property and it has five units and one is affordable and they're all rental units does it count to the SHI for five units or only the one? >> If it's a 40B development and 25% of the

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units are targeted to those that are below earning at a or below 80% AMI >> Yeah. >> in a rental development, all the units count. 20% of the units are targeted to those earning at or below 50% of area

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median income all the units count. And in home ownership development, only the actual affordable units count. >> I see. Okay. >> And only if it's a 40B. >> Only if it's a 40B. Unless you have your own zoning that mandates a certain

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percentage like you did with the, you know, the what are you calling it, the CHOD? You know, which that's up to 20% but still not up to 25% and those won't count. >> Yep. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, the other question I had and um, is

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that the two large 40Bs are in our LCD without and don't have, um, municipal services. And the master plan specifically and our zoning and our

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plan, you know, our master plan says that the LCD is not for residential, um, uses. How does that is that relevant or it >> Not in a 40B. >> Well, I know it's not in a 40B, but for

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the plan is it um you know, it do it does I have I just I didn't look at this at all because it came in I was out and about today and um I was so kind of I had didn't have a lot of time to get to you much before and I

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had a vacation part of the time. So, it's kind of like hurry up and you've done a lot of work in a short amount of time. So, um my question I guess is you said you mentioned the the large 40B's like what I've included them in a couple places.

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I don't know if under the proposed you know, kind of proposed projects under the subsidized housing and the joint this is simple description. I updated some of the descriptions and numbers and some of the concerns that people had I heard in the last um last meeting. I

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also mentioned it in the house the section on housing production goals that the goals that are included for the five year goals are based on proactive towns proactive uh housing efforts not the 40B's, but

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also indicating that it even if one of the 40B's gets gets um approved you're over the 10%. Um it both you're way over 20%. So, um I mentioned that there.

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Otherwise, you don't really mention them. Okay. If you'd like me to include them under the annual housing production goals, we can do that. >> No, I think we get good coverage. I just think there might be a lot of community >> Right. There are two comments about that. The two comments about that first

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the first one is even if they both even if the 40B's and the are are approved that doesn't address the needs that we're discussing in the >> That's really bottom line the most important piece in the plan. >> But this is but I I wish you'd would

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something. I always had thought that once one project gets approved by the state, that that gets us to safe harbor. But maybe that's not the case. That's not until the units are actually built and delivered that we get to safe harbor.

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And therefore it might be possible we can have two unfriendly 40 B's going on at the same time. >> That's a really good point. Probably the first one getting you over That's you know, that's a state question on how they meet. Is it the

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Technically, Shingle Hill has already been comprehensive permit has already been dealt with. Now it's just litigation. That would technically be the first one in. If that got you the safe harbor,

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I think it's a timing issue. Mhm. If in fact um the other development can get in ahead of it being so, you know, the the appeal being dissolved, um it can probably get in. If it's

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afterwards, it would probably it's probably loses it. Um Yeah. >> So the answer is this complicated? >> It's all in the timing. >> It's kind of like that. >> It's a timing thing. >> It's a timing opportunity. >> Mhm.

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>> I remember this like a certain length of time that after the permit is issued that you have or have safe harbor, but since there's an appeal, I don't know how that affects it. >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The appeal has to be resolved before they're going to give you any safe harbor.

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>> Right. >> Yeah. That has to be completely resolved. And I think there even has to Yeah, you have to document that it's been resolved in uh Evanel. Um So the next slide is basically just

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wanted to provide a list of all the resources that we used to go through to come up with this package of strategies. We did not include a whole lot in this list of things. We really was focusing on things that I'd heard about seeing folks from the

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public meeting that we had from previous plans, uh the master plan, updated information that we received from the needs assessment, um and I've had a number of conversations with Mark.

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I did some interviewing, um and then looking at uh what's worked for you as a community and what maybe has worked in other communities that and the lessons learned uh and came up with uh basically the same categories of

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strategies that we had last plan. Some of the plan Some of the strategies are the same, some are are different. Um under capacity building, these are strategies that'll help boost

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the town's ability to better promote uh affordable units. Obviously, bottom line, you know, real recognition that's important to do, you know, making any outreach and education, um and provide some examples of what

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might be considered. I I think that maybe an expanded website would be a good idea as an example. Um capitalize the affordable housing trust fund. Uh you you know the housing trust has some resources now,

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but given the implementation of this plan, it's going to need continued resources and I can give examples of how other towns are doing that. Um we talked a little bit in previous meetings about how some communities, particularly those on the Cape, have uh

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provided CPA funding for projects that are even outside their area that they think their community might residents might benefit. Uh that at least 10% of the CPA allocation each year should go directly into housing trust funds. Some

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examples of that. Uh continue to reach out for technical and financial resources. I provided a whole list of relatively new housing programs that have been developed and one even on financial incentives for ADUs that's in a process

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of being developed by HLC. Um and this is both for the development side and even for the preservation side. And then I we talked a little bit about this at the recent public meeting was

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obtain professional housing services potential the potential for regional collaboration. Um Communities that do have um a a separate staff or consultant position

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that focuses on housing make more progress. Um and >> that was specifically around the small plus one model that that when you get a density bonus and you by adding one or converting small

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>> Well, that's part of it. But it's also in in mind this plan, you know, and other kind of monitoring. The existing SHAC there's there's there's quite a bit that you know, Mark has a full-time job. So it's hard to

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rely on him to provide a lot of support on this this kind of work. I mentioned in the last public meeting that there have been some communities that are working together uh to uh

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basically contribute funding to support regional housing uh entity or a person uh that can do some of the things that we talked you talked about and we're concerned about like

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making sure that units uh are more easily added to the SHI um and are appropriately monitored. Um and some of the communities are going through a regional housing services

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office where they have consultants, they're paying for a certain menu of services. There's a lot of focus on monitoring in that situation. Or the Central Massachusetts Regional Planning Commission uh planning

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commission basically has like a circuit rider, a housing professional who uh works with a number of communities based again kind of on the services that the towns have you know physically approved and are paying for to provide

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some real support. And those are working very well. Um >> So you said that's a regional planning agency? >> Yeah, it's a regional >> Which one? >> Central Massachusetts Regional Planning Commission is the one that has the circuit rider. And we talked about maybe

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that it's worth having conversation with MAPC given it has this subregion here. Or there are some and there's nonprofit organizations A-PEAN or not so far away that have the capacity to do some of this work. But they

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would probably add a staff. And so your advice basically may be working with some of the other communities um to um to get some added staff. Or you see if maybe your fees could support somebody who's already on the staff or a

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part-time person. But I you know it seems like some of the real concerns are you know a a landlord wants to convert one of the units to um to SHI.

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But, given all the state requirements, it's it's it's a heavy load. But, if you have already a ready renters list that meets all the state requirements or already buyers list uh that you can dip into,

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that makes that makes the actual kind of having a deed restricted unit um a lot easier. Also, if you add some subsidy, that's going to make the deal really sweet uh and that's part of uh one of the recommendations in this

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particular plan. And you just said that Sarah or there are or maybe you said there may be maybe an agencies that have capacity. >> When traction Inc. could do it. >> Yeah, I mean that there and there are there a couple of other They know how to do this stuff. They

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know what the rules are. It's a matter of do they have staff capacity, you know, the fees, and then in some kind of an agreement kind of really understanding um what you need and what uh they might be able to provide. I think there is some real play in getting bringing on some

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people without having to bring on a a staff person. [clears throat] Um although you probably have some resources to do that, to bring on a part-time consultant. Anyway, um And the next um

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kind of category and strategies that we include inside the zoning. Um I tried throughout the plan to highlight the progress that has been made and in the zoning section in particular, because you've been busy um

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and uh you can take I think there's some bragging rights in being you know making some progress and so we're building on the recent changes which really is driving a couple of areas of the um of the plan.

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And the first one is to promote the local initiative program. So, this is also called the friendly 40B. The friendly 40B. 40B is an excellent permitting tool. When you have kind of

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clear preferences and priorities on the types of projects you like to see, often you're going to need waivers of zoning. So, the developer comes and says, "I want to build this kind of development in this particular area." And you say, "God,

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that's a great uh you know, that's a great potential project for us." The developer and the select board can then join hands and apply to the state to get the go-ahead with the friendly 40B. It saves a time um and uh you know, it's it's a real viable

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option. So, whenever you can promote that kind of partnership, makes sense. And developers appreciate that it doesn't have to go through the whole process. Going through LIP is saving time and money uh instead of a protracted how a hostile

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housing permitting process. Um so, if there's, you know, ways of getting the word out to developers that these are the kind of projects we would like to see and we're looking, you know, into permitting through LIP, uh I think that's an important message.

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>> Is there a minimum size? >> No. >> Well, four units, I guess, cuz >> No. You can do one unit under LIP. >> Really? One? >> Yeah. You know, back when >> One friendly 40B unit. >> You know, back when >> there for this year. >> The town of Barnstable, I

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I think it's probably in years now, this goes back how long ago it worked. Um they did all their ADUs through LIP. >> Huh. Wow. >> Yeah. Well, no, look, you know, you can do you can do a duplex, you can do a two-family house with LIP. Um yeah.

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>> But you still have the problem of the administrative burden of getting those listed. >> Yes. >> Well, that's why if you have >> you have to has to be on a SHI and that So, all their So,

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>> I Let me put it this way. I think you should really focus on that and for this plan, you need to focus on that. Once you get past the 10%, you can you're not necessarily >> with LIP with LIP, you still

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you still need to do it. Never mind. You still don't need to do all the state requirements. Yeah. Um, >> I mean, I guess Can I just I mean, if we housing aside for a second. I mean, we spent a lot of time talking about zoning

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around here. And we have a zoning set of tables and setbacks and you know, those uh, all of those things, you know, design review, whatever that whatever we've got or are talking about doing. And arguably, they have a purpose.

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>> Mhm. >> They have a intent. >> Mhm. >> And so, after you've I guess I have a little I have a problem saying what this what the LIP or the um, 40B is basically saying is

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the availability of housing for 80% AMI is a priority that is higher than whatever the justified >> Just AMI, though. It's the kind of development. Say for instance, a little pocket

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neighborhood. You can't do that under existing zoning, but you could do it under a LIP. You can't a two-family house. You You have a You have a zoning district that allows it. But, it could it could work really well in a lot of other residential districts. But,

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you could do with a LIP, not necessarily based on how you have it defined in the zoning bylaw, but it still would serve a really a pressing need you know need in the community provide us some greater housing diversity without having a major

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impact. I guess what I'm saying I'm sort of I guess if I >> [snorts] >> in the simplest form >> have a track yet. >> In the simplest form if zone if zoning is perfect, which it's >> It's not still not. >> So yeah, it's not perfect. >> We know it's not, but just you know on a

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theoretical basis if zoning has a basis and then I I think you know we're we're questioning that basis all the time. >> But I think what Cara is saying is you could have a 40B that complies with the zoning district all the dimensional requirements. You're putting in a 40B so you have

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the units in the LIP. >> And it might be a type of housing that you don't well, it still might be a different type of housing too. You know this whole missing middle thing. >> And it will >> I guess I mean if you want to change the zoning there's a lot of that across the board.

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>> There's a lot of reasons it would not meet all the requirements of zoning, but still would be considered a welcome project for a number of reasons by the by the town. >> So Sandy, you were mentioning when we were walking that there's a property in town that the

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owner would love to make it affordable. >> Mhm. >> It's got half a dozen potential units in it. Uh but they've already been into it. It's a hard way it's a pain to find I don't want to deal with it. If a group like Action Inc. >> Yeah, that's it. I get

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>> were set up to manage that, it could be done as a LIP where it it's it's totally within our setbacks, it's existing, whatever, but the use is not allowed cuz it's only we're only allowed four units. >> Okay. >> So if it has six, that might give us a path to doing that.

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>> But they would not have six, so you could >> But it was it's it's currently not affordable. >> But you know >> They'd like to make it affordable but they just don't want to go through the hassle. >> Well, I guess my point is it already exists so it's not >> Yeah, but it's not the >> Is it Is it just for new development or

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can it >> No, you can do a conversion but you can do a conversion. >> But the thing is that unit cannot be occupied already if it's going to be >> That's the problem. >> You have to That's what the problem is with Powder House Lane. You have to wait until the units turn over.

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Yeah. That's just But on the initial occupancy that you know >> But for for a small project it wouldn't take too long. >> And 70% of the units would be reserved for those who live and work in the community, too.

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That's another benefit. And what I also propose in the plan is that at least we'll get there. There's an subsidies to consider. It's another incentive. Um So, okay. Um So,

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make additional changes to the general district zoning. Marcus told me that you If you are looking at other possibilities besides the Harvard Edge and Town Center Town Center zoning. Uh further modifying the accessory

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dwelling unit bylaw by potentially going over 1,200 square feet given some of the large properties in the town that might be some real benefit to doing that. Um encouraging more housing diversity with design guidelines and we're looking

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at um you know, some of the housing units that I I've already kind of mentioned. Uh starter housing, special needs housing converting existing housing, small pocket developments, bungalow,

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cottage uh clusters, live-work space. I mean, some of this is allowed but it's constrained in the zoning bylaw and with and two-family homes, you know, with design guidelines, um you know, these things uh

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can still can can be amenable with the neighborhood. You were mentioning um that there was some concern before about houses all looking the same. Some of the bylaws that I've recently I've seen have actually a list of architectural

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features and say, "You must include at least five of these >> [laughter] >> in your in each house." You know, that really does come up with a design that's it it's not cookie-cutter and it can reflect

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the historic architecture that you already have in this community. So, those can be helpful. And also, the more information you can put out there for developers makes them I think it easier life for them um

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uh development strategy um you know, basically, we're talking about supporting small-scale infill development conversions. Um and I know that a number of years ago you put out a notice of funding availability

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uh to try to attract property owners, developers, and these um to actually creating some employment buildings. >> Did you have put that in the plan? >> Yes. Couple places. And particularly under this. And what

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I'm suggesting is that the subsidy that's offered be greater and that you have this technical professional uh ability to uh support new development in and you

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pushing through the lip process if other existing zoning or proposed zoning is doesn't work. Um And so that's like I'm completely new to this whole thing. I mean, this I'm not This stuff is not

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easy. It's not a slam dunk. It's but trying to put the pieces together that'll get you some, you know, infill development. Smaller scale, but still works. Um and provides greater affordability and diversity in

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the community. And then make suitable public property available for the for affordable housing. We have to include that as part of the plan. And Marcus provided me with some language that I will insert into it, which I appreciate. You know

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what I'm saying? >> Does that include parking areas? >> Design guide Well, your bylaws would include parking area parking. >> And kind of a parking lot, but you could build above the air rights above them.

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>> I Creativity would be great. Um and then I That's it. Basically, next steps is I need approval from both you and the select board. And we submit We get Once we have that approval from the select board, we can

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submit the plan the next day to HLC. And I'll get you, you know, the instruction have to come from the town. Um and then the state's been moving pretty quickly. I mean, I'd say a month or so for their review. We're technically they have 90 days.

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Um So, that's in a nutshell. I mean, part of the questions is, you know, have I missed something? Do I need to complete something? Obviously, you guys need time to review it and any questions and suggestions can go through Mark and we will review that.

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Um Anything else? Tonight? I'm not the last slide. Oh, the slide. Oh. I think that's it. >> You talked about all that already, I think.

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>> What is this thing? Next, I did next steps. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> You sent me a completely different email. This is the last one you just sent me. This is the old Is that what you are referring >> Okay. All right, well, thank you. Um comment,

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additional comments, or questions? The honest uh step is for all of us to review it. And be ready to talk about it at our next meeting. So, then we can vote. >> You can vote. >> Right, but yeah.

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>> So, if you have comments, questions, send me questions, send them to me, send them directly to Karen. Um and feel that at the next meeting, you can uh vote to send it forward it to the select board. >> Okay.

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>> Yeah, I [clears throat] think we have the uh select board meeting tentatively uh for the third of August. So, that's kind of a fast-paced process, but it works to your benefit to get something in the state sooner instead of later given

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the projects I'm in the pipeline. Okay. Okay. >> Great. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We'll be in touch. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thanks for coming. >> Yeah. >> This is what you were. I guess we'll never

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Well. You the team that just remember. You look >> Um Okay. So, the next thing on our >> I have some questions. >> Absolutely. >> So much information in there, so much

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data in in from which you're deriving now what we're interested in creating the plan. What happens when the plan gets created, accepted by the select board? Does it Where does it go? What do What happens to it after that?

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>> It's in a file. >> Well, you you know that she does Well, it it sits on a shelf. >> Well, she does reference in this report that there that the items that have been completed since the last one. So, things do happen.

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>> Yeah. >> I don't know if it's because of this report but or it's just a coincidence but well, things happen. >> Yeah, the the plan partially is a way of monitoring what you've done, which is why the state both like it to be updated

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every 5 years and so and it also sometimes, you know, community may not be aware of like what is missing in their community. I don't know. They may not be aware of, you know, certain strategies or things. I mean,

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your community is fairly small. You have a lot of, you know, of people who are well informed here who are proactive about things. So, it's it's maybe some of that doesn't uh

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necessarily ring as true here as in other communities but I mean, some of the the statistics she provided was pretty glaring like the how the housing prices that whole mid-range of housing prices

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is gone. And like and then it spikes at a million and you know, so >> A million three is the median. >> That's not That hasn't been Those numbers are not inflation adjusted. That That concerns me. I keep saying that, but not to say that

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a million is not whether it was and still a lot of money, but uh that's fight they she's very haphazard on that fight and I worry that I mean, I guess my point is these are problems that have been long-standing

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rather than this than this the the steep curve that is represented in the plan and on some of those numbers is overstated. Well, it doesn't mean that it's not still a problem. >> Right. I don't disagree with that, but I think that the steepness of that line is

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very significant. There is inflation involved, but inflation up until the past 2 years of that 5 years is pretty >> Yeah, it's 2%. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, but >> But, also there is there's some other you speaking of data there's some really interesting data as we move through the process of building the Saugus

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Elementary School about the student population in our schools. And it it from when in 2014 I'm doing this from memory I had it on my phone, but I forgot my phone. Um I think the school population is down 23%.

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>> It's down significantly. I see. >> It's not Wait. Wait. Wait. Let me just But, but the biggest piece of that percentage is in the last 3 years. It's like 16% and since COVID it's like 16% of that 23. So, you know, we need to keep that in

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mind, but then you see you hear the 40B projects come before one of those comes in is that just going to throw that up in the air and make us, you know, are we going to have overcrowded Well, not gap Well, not overcrowded, but will that gap go away and will we be back to where we were 10 years

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>> Big gas school so we built St. Peter's. >> The the the the decrease in school population right now will not be offset by one of these 40B projects coming in. >> Oh, you mean it'll a lot. >> bringing in a rat to kill kids >> Yeah. Well, if it's a luxury housing I

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mean, the problem is that it's not those apartments are not {quote} unquote starter homes. They're not places where people can begin because they're so darn expensive. >> But they are supposed to be at least a portion of them at that 80% AMI, right?

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So, and that I think is it requires a household to come up with $123,000, which is $50,000 lower than what Manchester average household income is. So, >> But wasn't there a discussion about a gap being like what a household with

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that income could afford is like 800 900 grand on the low end of the >> low end of the AMI. It's a yeah, I mean, I I don't know. I just think it's it's the the 40B projects need to be considered in this cuz what's the likelihood that both of them are going to go in

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in some shape or form, right? >> I would like to think is that with the housing production plan it can help help assess what the what these 40B should be. >> Right. Density-wise, yeah. Yeah. >> In terms of goals, but in terms of what

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they should be, that's where, you know, >> Well, in case of Gordon Woods, they're starting. So, there this is a negotiating point the town can take. This is what our needs are. You're not meeting them with this 40B. So, you're going to have to change that or we're going to say no.

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>> And it becomes an unfriendly. >> Yeah. >> Well, you got to >> You can't say no or it just becomes too large because it's far exceeding >> Sure. >> And then they can come back. >> Well, it becomes a negotiation >> They come back with something that meets our

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meets our needs both in in scale and size and >> So, they started at 285. I mean, it's like it's come on, nuts. >> Well, yeah, so with this is where the negotiation can we something to be able to negotiate from. >> And that's what the state provides us. Yeah.

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>> So I wanted I do think this timing of the 240Bs is important. So if we have you know if we if the town reaches a agreement or a friendly 40B with the Gordon Woods folks, does that

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then just negate single place hill or is >> I don't know. This is a big question. >> She was unclear about >> And and if we furthermore if we get 11 units in one year we can call we have saved our >> No, we have to you only have to do that

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for one year. >> And we do 22 in 2020. >> Right. Right. But 11 units sounds so insurmountable at the pace we're going right now. I'm It sounds incredible. >> That's exactly that. Between Powder

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House Lane and Gores Apartments, I mean you've got Well, you know again if he gets help you know, or Powder House Lane. I mean the thing that makes me a little crazy is that and I I honestly it would be

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great to include it in this housing production plan is to say you know there's the missing middle. Well, a group of citizens acted to try and save the missing middle and the state is getting in the way of letting that happen.

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>> Well, that that's completely >> Well, they are. >> weren't trying to reach reach the missing middle. They were trying to stop Shingle Hill if we're being honest about it. >> Well, I don't know. I don't know the history of it all. Yeah, but what they did in fact is they

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saved >> And it was a wonderful thing. >> Yes, that's right. And they saved moderately priced rental housing. So I mean There's got to be a way to get credit for that. >> So the Gordon Woods must know

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that they need to get theirs in before Shingle Hill gets >> gets results. >> gets finished. >> Well, I think Gordon Woods' premises is going to be friendly. >> Right. Well, because they need the town not to reject it based on being a large

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project. >> Yeah. >> Because anything over what's the number? 136 or so is a large project. So, and I think that's to your point saying, "Well, if they want large project, then they ought to be building what we feel

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we need, whether that includes a senior housing component or more affordable units to lower >> I know he says rental, but I think that there's a real need for some ownership. Like people, you know,

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>> The downsizing and >> of people who lost >> That's a fair point. >> Um >> The one statistic about the growth of 70 and above, 70 and above in this town. >> Yeah, staggering. >> It really is crazy. And the And the

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percentage of property that they own >> That statement is resemble that remark. >> You know, I am close to resembling that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> What um Help me understand what the role of the Manchester Housing Authority is in this

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problem and solve in helping solve this problem. First, and then the second thing is it seems to me if you want to save farmer or if we want to make 11 units a year happen that this RFP for the planes in Newport Park is pretty figuring out how to

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reconfigure that RFP to make it actually get some responses. We own the land. It's intended for those purposes. >> Yep. >> Like, you know, >> It's low-hanging fruit, it seems. If there is >> that we it was tried. It was tried

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twice, right? So, how do we fix the problem? It seems like if you want to fix something that make it happen. >> Well, so the the difficulty with the housing authority I just Brian jumped in

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maybe it's just Brian and me is that the rents are extremely low. And the state does not provide enough subsidy to take care of them. So, if the goal is to maintain the preserve those units, we have to create additional housing

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that can help subsidize the cost of operations. And that's why the developers at the affordable housing trust to talk to said, we need another site besides the housing authority site to generate enough income

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to make all this work. And that's why the public worksite was so important. And so so when the town said, well, we're not ready to declare surplus that kind of >> ended that. >> Ended it, yeah. But that's not to say we shouldn't try again.

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>> Okay. >> Is the is the additional site to allow them to build at market rate units or to replace the tenants that are >> It could either be a tax credit affordable deal which would generate a lot of income just on its own or it

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could be market rate or a mix. Any of those would be possible. But you just need more bulk and more income from the town. >> So, this came to me came to me while I was talking to you on the

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phone today. As we think about a public safety building or a DPW's facility, why not have affordable housing above it or beside it? You could say, oh, the noise and all that, but you've got a fire station that is

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right next to residential units right now for the last 100 years. >> the same concept. >> Because and then with the new insulation materials, acoustics are much better than they were in the past. Um I don't know. I mean, we

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fire stations are in communities met you know, right next to residential group. Then you don't have the land cost. Um It seems as we should at least explore it as a

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and you know, maybe we rule it out. I don't know. >> So, I'm going to apply my first rule of planning to this, which is for every complicated problem like this, there's always a simple solution, but it's usually wrong. >> Right. >> So, it's going to be a very complicated

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answer. >> Of course. >> And that's usually wrong. >> There's one thing to remember is that fire station prop pretty when you locate police and fire in a public safety building somewhere and

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reconstruct or relocate public works, fire station building probably will not have another municipal use waiting for it. So, that site itself could be a good site for

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a housing >> That's been talked about. >> The thing is it's kind of down the down the road. >> It's down the road. >> It's down the road, but it's still A needs to be considered and kept in the back of or the forefront of everybody's

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mind that that site unless it because it's on the edge of downtown, preference would be to use it for some other commercial downtown related use, but if that doesn't uh appear over the next few years that you want something else there,

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you know, housing is is a good spot. That's a good spot for an affordable housing development in town. Put the parking underneath. And have two or three stories of housing >> above because because of the Brookside flood.

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>> You don't want to put any housing >> You can put a marina by it. >> And a marina. That's right. Well, that would drive the cost of the units >> That would be fine. >> We want a marina. >> Is there Is there anything >> The idea of trying to attach housing

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with the fire with the police. If I were a person that you were talking to, the amount of things that that would depend on then, funding from the town, town meeting votes, blah blah. Like as soon as you get halfway through the list, I'm like, forget it. Keep it Keep it simple, stupid.

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And find the easiest path to the end result. As soon as you start to glob things on together, the odds of it actually happening >> Right. You have a fire department >> fire department or the house >> Every day, everything. >> Right. No, I understand that. But on the other hand,

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>> You got to think about it all the time. >> All right. What's what's happening amongst us in the facility group here to We seem to uh we started out very hot and heavy on the the fire department and the police station and DPW. We haven't talked about

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that for months now. We're mostly talking about the senior housing over here. >> Senior housing in there. >> Yeah, probably. >> So and the senior and >> That senior housing should be you know, senior >> No, no, it's okay. >> That was the funniest I know you like that.

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But so what So what So what it need what it need you know, from my perspective sitting and listening to for the last eight months on it, this whole this group, if we did have a uh a really stalwart plan of what parcels are available in town and what they would be

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best used for, whether it's repurposing the fire station or actually developing, tear down, build something new, but actually have a plan in place so that we can move forward with it. Right now, that DPW is here, it's there, it's there.

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Fire department shifting with it. Police department goes wherever it goes. It's not been a It's a concerted effort. I will say that the facilities group is getting more more focused on exactly that right now here. We're meeting every 2 weeks now. We We have a single agenda

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meetings besides all the other stuff, little stuff around the front and the end. It was a single agenda meeting trying to determine how to fix the ambulance. >> Well, I think it's also a ca- it's a money problem. I mean, that's, you know, we bet the capital plan of when we're going to spend >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

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>> Which is so well mapped out, right? I mean, it it should be a similar >> Is it Is it well mapped out? >> Well, they the infrastructure, they have a good sense of the capital projects that need to be done, right? I mean, at least I heard that in town meeting. >> But not that practical. >> No, not I'm not talking I'm talking they

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had, you know, Lincoln Street, all you know, yeah, yeah. >> of the >> That That is You're correct. You're correct. Not Not this >> part of the 5 million 5 million >> our contribution and you got four major capital projects right in a row, right on top of each other. How's that all going to be paid

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for? >> Yeah. >> It's It's an interesting It's a seem It seems like >> And we're just grasping in the air where I'm >> really like to wrestle it down, take take one of these plans here and designate what is available. >> So, >> What is the best purpose for that land?

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>> And on top of that, you're going to have private fundraising for $10 million for the library. However, what for the senior center? And then the the jump >> $10 million for the library? >> That's what I heard.

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>> Yeah. >> They got to put a ADA bathroom, that's all I heard. >> $10 million for >> go to >> So, the next step on the housing production plan is we are all going to The problem is read it and get Mark comments. >> You can ask. >> I'm for it. >> On on what you've been doing.

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>> one day, but >> Yeah, not what I'm looking at here, but >> Try to get things to him by in a week. But I I know that's I I'm speaking I'm going to say Tuesday cuz I just don't have time between now and I think I needed it last weekend.

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>> So, I looked at the first three pages and she has a really good summary on the first three pages. >> I know, but we really should >> Yeah. >> I mean, if maybe we should divide it if it's too big. Maybe we should kind of divide it into chunks and so that somebody that we all read a

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um >> You're going to read all of them? >> You're going to read all of them? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, we should. >> I'm going to have to read all of them. I can't wait. >> Okay, excellent. I'm going to read all of them. >> I I said one quick question. If the town model, the town owns like friendly non-profit model, whatever. So, if just

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25% of that is actually like affordable units, say there's 30 units, all 30 of those count towards SHI. >> Yeah. >> If it's a rental. >> If it's a rental, yeah. If all of them are rentals, but it's not. >> That was interesting.

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>> How many How many units have we added to the SHI in the last 3 years? >> None. >> Right. I hear 11 a year and it's like >> No, we've also gone down, right? We lost 167 >> last 2 or 3 years. >> No, no, not now. >> Those were rental. >> Yeah.

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>> Those were just rentals. >> Well, so we have two vacant. >> One. >> MHA has four vacancies right now, so that's big priority. We're trying to fill those. So. >> What is that? >> The housing authority they have because of the turnover situation with the

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executive director and some mismanagement. It's four vacant units that they're prioritizing getting built. So >> But they're counted on the S >> Yeah, they're already counted. >> Yeah, they're already counted. >> So then we don't currently have zero vacant units. >> So is the housing the Beverly Housing Authority being helpful?

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>> Yes. >> Yeah. >> So that might be something we can engage with. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, I guess that's the thing is that as you guys are doing things, is there a way that we can get some of this technical assistance for either we want to have

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one or two or want to have that four-unit development with a fifth as the you know, as the um bonus. >> Mhm. >> So that brings me to some of our liaison reports, one of which is on the MAPC rep

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from Manchester, and I don't go very often because so much of their stuff is not um relevant to small towns. They talk about the the last one was about transportation hot spots.

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The hot hot spot is party hot spot. >> Exactly. Really? >> But uh there was one like on the map of the entire region, there was one like hot spot in Manchester, and it was it was as if AI must have generated it.

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>> Yeah, yeah. >> I don't even remember where it was, but I looked at it and thought I don't think that's a hot spot. It was, you know. But anyway, so I didn't go to that meeting. But the rep, Ellen, has asked now twice, you know, to have a meeting, and so I'm

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hoping you and I can do this to say what um how can we help you? And I'm going to say this >> services this issue around >> SHI. >> Yes. >> You know, about the smaller units, and um we'll say that's [clears throat] that's my response. So

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>> That's a good idea. >> Um but I think they really want projects that they can partner with us and get paid for. But uh >> Yeah, that's a lot of >> Well, we're willing to pay >> What they want is they want to submit a proposal >> Right. >> and yes, that's what they want.

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>> Right. So, but that but we can Um and so I guess the question is what other things if anything It seems to me this is the priority that we would want their help with. >> Mhm. >> Um and I'm you know, the general comment of

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you know, have some of yourself. Like one of them would be relevant to >> They could contact the other towns around and see if there's interest in region. >> But they wanted us to join a grant for $50,000 to find out what Essex is doing and I was like, well, we could call up

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as I said that I doubt I mean, he's so down on us being my contact person. Um so, Okay, so that was one update. The other update I had um uh was um oh, I'm going to pass this

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around. This is the summer meetings. It's a scrap paper and I want you to say yes, no, you know, Chris, yes. John, no for each date. If you know, if you don't know, you could put your name as I don't know. Um just because we want to try to um not

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have both meetings in August. We tend to cancel at least one of our meetings. Like Mark and I talked about we've worked more than this year. Um so, that's um take if you can take a moment look at your calendars. Um The other thing is

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uh When we had our retreat, one of the things that came up that Mark mentioned is that the select board wants us to work on um the short-term rental. Uh and I think what we should do is send

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them an email or and say what's the problem you're trying to fix? So that we then have No, it's a general bylaw, so they can do it themselves, but they've asked us. But I don't I'm entirely unclear about what the problem is if it were in effect.

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>> The way I had that the way we had discussion that you have need to see if how many complaints they get and if it's very few, but you know, but I think there's a bigger perception that there's a problem, but again, not

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really sure. So I think that's a good thing. The other thing is Tony has mentioned I don't believe I've received anything from him. In the past, he's mentioned that some towns not only do a general bylaw change, but they also add

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something to the zoning as well. So that's why it makes sense. He's trying to have the planning board and uh yes, he called him that. So >> So what's the problem and what's the outcome that is wanted? Um

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uh you know, prohibit them, encourage them, regulate them, uh >> Do we even know? I mean, don't people have to get a license to do short-term rentals? Do we know how many licenses there are? >> If it's for less than 6 days. They get a

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license through the state. And [clears throat] then I don't know if we also have >> Yeah, we have we have something to do >> We both uh send a email to Paul as well. He probably >> The thing is less than 6 days. >> Um

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Okay. So I'll ask the select board. Um the other thing that had come up with the sign bylaw. Um so I think if we really want to have something on this fall town meeting on signs, we need to have you to do a

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straw >> Mhm. >> You know, kind of a what What the issues that we're trying to So if we can put that on the on the next >> Okay. >> the meeting. Probably 1st of September, but I meant to have us I guess put open up your eyes to the

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signs that we have in town. Where do we have a problem? What's our potential problem? What's our you know, do we want all signs to look and feel the same? Do we like the diversity of signs? Do we want to regulate them? I mean, you know, so that we can

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I I feel it's for me it's helpful to be to see specific things and and and and use it as a context. And and not just in Manchester, right? There's signs everywhere. So. >> So, the other thing is that our we will retreat thing, we came up

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with like a list of four or five small zoning changes. >> Right. >> So, if this I haven't started those, but I will try and get some cuz we have to start talking about those in the fall.

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So, I will try and get start drafting those for our each of the next couple meetings. So, we will have you know, we'll work through them. They're relatively small changes, but you actually have to see the text and read and so and so forth. So, I will be doing that. But the other

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thing that we need to do as well is well, we started we did it by 30. We need to discuss next steps because we do have a plan to bring someone on board to assist us. I can use all the funding for the

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streetscape, but I mean, it was a general district planning study house part of that. So, I was thinking at the very least we would hire someone to do what we did with the downtown to do all the

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the charrettes and the visioning portions and some of the analysis. And then maybe we would do our own zoning just like we did um uh for the downtown. >> So, at the end of the last meeting at the walk-around meeting when you were

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getting copies, we kind of did a short debrief and said we'd identified the sort of the Norwood Rick Brook Street you know, change some of that from general to D1 or D district. There's still the outstanding issue whether D1

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and D2 really do need to be separate. Um and this question about whether or not we need to that requirement that things be attached the um two families be attached, we should that would be a procedurally easy

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change. But um for uh and then design review as an increase. Where how do how might we do that particularly with older buildings? So, that was just kind of the the government. >> But what what I'm thinking is how do we do it with the public? We can sit here

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and I can draft everything you guys come together, but >> No, we would need to have some forums. >> So, I'm I might be blown on this, but I feel like the general district, the place that needs probably the most attention in our town

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is the part that we didn't even walk. Going down Beach Street or towards the train and all that. So, that area is what zoning has forgotten and screwed up, I believe, so far. >> But that that's now in the town center. >> No, all of it. It's still

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>> No, all of it. Town center ends at the Harbor's Point. The Harbor's Edge ends at Harbor's Point. Beyond that is A. >> So, general district is no longer >> No, never was. >> the train, the office space

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>> That's now in the town center. So, um but but we I think you know, if you continue up Summer Street, we didn't walk there. And then we also have the question of waterfront uses with the boat yards and

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the which we didn't come back to today, but um um yeah, the town center and um Harbor's Edge go to Harbor's Point, but then it's A and B beyond that. >> Beyond that.

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>> But I like your idea, John, um the question you asked is what do we want, which is really a visioning thing. What is it we're trying to achieve in a zone. >> Yeah. >> Let's just take general district and you say um

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So, I think I'm not sure we need to answer that right now, but I think that >> That's part of the >> noodle that, noodle that around. What's the outcome? And then we can muck with the wording and the the changes. >> Can I put two more things out there and then >> Yeah, of course.

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>> Um the more I think about it, the more the fact that we don't have a demo-to-light part of our our ordinances. >> Yes. >> I honestly I kind of look around and I fear for some of the buildings in our town. They may not be in great shape. They may not be really historic,

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but the character of them, the potential of what they could be, which is much worse potentially. Um and I don't I don't see much of the downside of doing it. So, I I'd love to It almost feels like a time-sensitive thing, like before

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anything else gets screwed up >> Mhm. >> and knocked down. >> So, we had we had talked to Rosemary about that about three or four years ago. We were hot to trot to put it on the >> I talked to her about it a month ago. >> And um yeah, so maybe

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the two of you could follow up with her. I know John, you've We've talking to her about it, but so okay, let's What what do we need to do? Let's work together. Let's have a joint meeting. Let's have them come in. >> So the historic commission has been

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meeting on that. They were I did not make a meeting last Thursday, but it was on their agenda to discuss that. They kind of had selected a period a little bit older than 50 years. They were looking like a 1920s

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or 30s kind of stuff cut off. Um but you know, again, um They're fairly supportive. They've done a little bit of research about other communities, you know,

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uh how many uh properties in the North Shore, some of the communities that had some information have been saved. And so their their feeling is even if it's just one every so many years, it might get whether it's saved, whether it's moved,

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but the the plan gets modified to uh even if it gets torn down to replicate it, put it in a new structure that kind of looks have that same thing. You know, it's it's a tool you can use. It's another tool to

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get better design, better, you know, better result at the end. Um so they were supportive of I don't know what they discussed on Thursday, but that was something that they were very supportive of doing

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So we could try and uh for the next agenda, since really [clears throat] the only hearing we would have is your continued hearing. Uh and the follow-up for the final review with

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um our building plan. We could maybe have Rosemary uh or have a joint meeting. >> Yeah, I think it you said you talked to her about it. So, I think, you know, whatever we can do to

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I think I mean, I think it sounds like a good idea and we know how to get things done, written, hearings. >> I think this is not a zoning bylaw, but a general bylaw.

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>> Right, but >> I just want to see what it is here. >> Yeah, we still have to put it out there. I think people would need to I think town meeting would go for it in a heartbeat. The demo delay. What? The demo delay, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Throughout town, though, not just in this area.

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>> Oh, absolutely, yeah. >> Yeah, it has to apply to you can't target it to a certain area. >> Um, last I heard >> Yeah. >> Is it possible in our town that someone could build a fence that is 12, 16 ft

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tall? >> It's considered a structure as far as I know, and anything over 6 ft would need a building permit from the building dept. >> But, that's our private property. Otherwise, it's by right. >> But, I think that after >> No.

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I know that there was on Beach Street that came up. >> I have a friend who's been I don't know if the right word is victim, but been the victim of a situation that is awful. >> Yeah. >> I think I know who you're talking >> I know. >> And >> He hired a guy.

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>> Just about. I don't know exactly how high it is. It's really freaking high. And he got a building permit and all that stuff, but it's and I was like, there's no way that's allowed in our town. I'm going to go look in the ordinance. >> Really, Alice? >> There's a

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There's a mass general law about a spite fence. But, you got [clears throat] to hire a lawyer, you got to spend 30 grand just to get anywhere. It seems like something we should have. >> Yeah. >> Logical. >> Yeah.

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>> Okay. >> Mhm. >> fence by law >> Good fences make good neighbors. >> Or not. >> Or not. As the case may be. >> A good fence by law makes good Yeah. >> There you go. There you go. >> Can you put a water balloon on the top? >> [laughter]

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>> Can you put a basketball on the top of it? Bang. Bang. Bang. >> No, it's >> Okay. Um >> fence height, huh? >> You know we should >> Any other updates from folks? Or I had um Oh, I have one other thing. Uh Gordon uh

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and uh I guess and John and Mark, how did the um design review? >> It was horrible. >> Not with the I meant the process, not the >> It actually was >> Yes, it was very simple. Obviously, it was uh we had a friendly ear doing the

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presentation. So, and basically he he very much contributed to the design criteria. So, everything is meant to the letter of the law. And it was it was great. Peter was there. I invited him along just to just to sit and watch and hear and listen to everything. The referee.

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>> The referee. >> It was it was a little just just a speaker on the peanut gallery. >> I did you have to get approval yet. >> And watching Gary in in ethics, Gary's Gary's was pretty interesting. I I explained to my client afterwards.

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He was like, "What was that all?" I was like, "Well." >> [laughter] >> I was still being recorded, right? >> Well, um we only had two people volunteer to serve on it, so >> It went It went quite fine. It was It was like it was should be there. We had

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an agenda. We followed the letter of of what we had to cover everything. I I would I we had prepared notes and assets notes and I had John do John do the notes. >> And so, do you need me to meet again, or are you done? >> We are done once the once

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Gary is writing up I wrote my notes and gave them to Gary to help formalize them for the chairperson to finish this. I mean, what What is the chair doing? What me? >> So, wait. So, Gary >> of the committee. >> So, that was my question. Who is going to write something up?

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>> Gary Gary already wrote a draft. >> Did he do something yet, or not? >> He I would say no. >> Cuz I haven't received anything. >> Okay. He wanted to meet again this Friday, which I can't do, but So, just um,

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make sure he gets it to us, so we have it in the packet >> [clears throat] >> for the next meeting. Um, the other related to that, Chris sent an email to Mark and me about um, our procedures. There's There's a lot of

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history on the procedures for the planning board. Um, and what I'm going to suggest is that in September Chris and I two people just bang go through the draft procedures that um, they were written by a ad hoc committee

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and then Betsy Ware tried to get involved and she put like lengthy um, excerpts from the from bylaws and that we make a very short sweet piece, but the design review um, season

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bring it up. It's the design review process should be in there, so that it's clear about you know, how long it's going to take and what the process is for that. You can't just have it be you know, >> endless endless debate.

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So, the chair >> the >> I know I know we had talked about Gordon not meeting. But >> Well, I >> But >> Not meeting again. >> Yeah, but this is like I thought Gary was going to write something up really quickly. I thought we were you were going to review it and

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I thought we were going to >> waiting >> So would it be better if John has provides drawings to with everyone a quick meeting. >> So >> to review the revised drawings and then

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I can draft a one paragraph thing to the board to the >> You could still need a you need a formal assessment of what we wrote. >> Well, I wrote >> I wrote it and it was very very short. We >> The only thing we really talked about any major concerns is separating the

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buildings a little bit to give them a little more breathing room between. >> Yeah. >> Basically they'll be attached. >> Well, I mean so >> What were we doing? >> over the two materials? >> But 6 over 6, 4 over 2, 4 over 1, 3 >> We talked about just creating a little

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more individuality. We gave a bunch of suggestions. But so my my question is >> Right. >> in in order to move the process along and rather than wait for some Gary's memos because we don't need those memos.

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What we need is the revised drawings. >> Yes. >> to say you've been responsive and we're okay with that or or >> Excuse me, you could you could have a meeting on Zoom. >> So so my question is I think

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I think I think that is a more expeditious >> I I would agree with you. >> because at the meeting everyone was like oh okay, let Gary break down. That was but it's been what? Two weeks now? >> Yeah. >> And um I I think I think that's a better

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way of doing it. We just >> Yeah, I'll let you you need to communicate that to >> Yes. >> Gary and Chuck and see if that makes sense. >> And then and then >> this >> Yeah, I think we're fine. >> took me probably 15 minutes just to take

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my notes and put them in an email and format it. >> Yeah. Okay, so I think if Mark makes it because let's try to get it in a timely way before the June July 27th meeting. Everybody tells me to get it to you. >> And our updated drawings for the

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>> Yes. >> You know what you got to do. >> No, updated drawings. >> I don't feel that. >> Because if we want to try to take the time off in September in August, then closing out Deer Hill at our next meeting makes sense. Yeah, there's no reason to not. I think.

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>> Sarah, I'll try and do the meeting next >> Okay, it's like um >> No, I won't be back until next I'm going to California for 5 days, so I won't be back till next Tuesday. >> Okay, so oh, you're leaving Yeah, so >> Leaving Thursday. >> Yeah, so I can't post the meeting then.

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>> Make it a practice not asking people are going to be away. >> I can't do it. >> But you can leave it to Gary. >> Okay, anything else? >> I want >> Oh, minutes. >> These meeting minutes. >> Oh, yes. >> Yes, minutes. Let's get those done. Um I have minutes

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of the Oh, the housing production plan meetings. Public forum. Um That was Okay, um the June 17th housing production forum um was just Chris and me. So, I think we

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have to just designate it as a um informational meeting and that's um >> I did watch it if that helps. >> Yeah, that's the whole thing. >> Oh, wow. Okay, um so Chris, you approve Okay, um it's Chris and I approve that.

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Um I don't know. Procedurally when you and the other one is the 22nd. Um, uh, let's see. I think everybody was here. Anything on that? So, that means Peter

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Wharton moves to approve and Sandy Bodner turns a second. Um, any amendments or concerns? All in favor? Great. Um, anything else? All right.

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So moved. All in favor? Only calm. I do all my swimming. Two of you can't leave because we'll see it there. John Eaton I think I won't be there. So, I won't be.

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What do you think of the battle? He wants to be chair. He didn't say. He didn't know. I just write the report. We only have a Yeah, exactly. Who was the one I'm the one who wrote the one that

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signed this over there looks like a