We're on >> 6:30. >> All right. Good evening everyone. This is the Maple Shade Township Council regular session agenda meeting November 20th. Please stand for the pledge of >> allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the republic for it stands
nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all. >> All right. Public notice of this meeting pursuant to the open public meetings act has been given by the township council in the following manner. for notifying the township clerk July 23rd, 2025.
Mailing notice to the carrier post essential record and Burlington County Times on July 23rd, 2025. Posting notice on the official municipal bowling board on July 23rd, 2025. Any anyone from the public wishing to speak tonight will be permitted to address comments to the council during the public portion. Each
member of the public will be given one opportunity and up to five minutes. Um, please all phones on mute to not disrupt the meeting. Roll call, please. Terry. Mr. Kaufman >> here. >> Miss Nunes >> here. >> Mr. Simons >> here. >> Mr. Zadnik >> here. >> Mayor Terico
>> here. I'm going to read the proclamation honoring Kenneth Kenny Ker Jr. and dedicating a portion of Buttonwood Avenue. Honoring and memorializing Kenneth Kenny Jr. Ker Jr. and dedicating a portion of Buttonwood Avenue in his memory. Whereas the township of Maple Shade proudly
recognizes residents whose character, service, and spirit strengthen our per community. And whereas Kenny was a beloved member of the Maple Shade family known for his kindness, work ethic, and unwavering willingness to help others whose life exemplified our town's motto, nice town, friendly
people. And whereas Kenny's positive impact was felt across generations, from neighbors and friends to the many youth and families he encouraged and supported through communities, activities, volunteer efforts, and everyday acts of generosity. And whereas Kenny's legacy continues in the hearts of his loved
ones and in the lasting example he set for perseverance, humility, and community pride. And whereas the Maple Shade Township Council wishes to honor Kenny's memory in a visible and enduring way that reflects his deep ties to our neighborhoods and his love for his this community. And whereas the township has
determined that dedicating a portion of Buttonwood Avenue in his honor is a fitting tribute that will inspire present and future residents to live with the same spirit of service that Kenny embodied. Now therefore be proclaimed by the township council of the township of Maple Shade County of
Burlington, state of New Jersey, that the township hereby dedicates the portion of Buttonwood Avenue, route 38 to West Mill Road as Kenny Carer Jr. Way. The Department of Public Works is authorized and directed to install appropriate ceremonial street signs at locations approved by the township
consistent with applicable standards and safety requirements. The township clerk is dedicated I'm sorry. The township clerk is directed to record this dedication in the official records of the township and to provide copies of this proclamation to Kenny's family. The township
encourages residents and visitors to honor Kenny's example of kindness, dedication, and community spirit when passing along this dedicated way. Be it further proclaimed that this dedication shall take effect immediately upon adoption, and that the township extends
its heartfelt condolences and enduring gratitude to the family of Kenneth Kenny Ker, Jr. All right. [applause] We're going to move over to presentation for best practices. Jess,
>> hello everyone. >> Hello. How are you? >> Good. How are you? >> Good. >> Take it easy on remember this is the first one she has to do. So >> finance, not public speaking. >> You're good. >> Does that mean no worse? >> Does it? It should. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Okay. So, um each year we're required by the state to complete a best practices inventory. Um it's an annual questionnaire or survey that consists of questions um revolving around municipal finances and operations receipt of any township state aid is dependent on an
acceptable number of affirmative answers within the questionnaire. Um so this year there were 70 questions, 50 of them were scored, 20 of them were unscored. The scored questions are either core competencies or best practices. Core competencies is statutory and regulatory
compliance obligations. Um the state considers these critical to sound municipal finance and operations. The best practices questions, they also involve fiscal and operational um practices, but they just have a significant benefit to the municipalities. They're not considered
foundational in nature. So they're not usually uniform to um all entities. The unscored questions, they're basically just data collection for the state to use to determine any municipalities that require further assistance from the DLGS or the DCA.
Um, completion of best practices is really a team effort. Uh, there's lots of topics including not limited to affordable housing, financial administration, ethics and transparency, proper procurement. It's a really big opportunity for us to focus in on areas
that the township can benefit from improvement. A municipality has to obtain a minimum score of 32 points to receive its full state aid. M uh Maple Shade scored 41.5 points. So, we will be receiving 100% of
our state aid this year, which is $1.7 million. Uh like I said, it's a team effort. um completing the SER survey, maintaining, establishing, establishing and maintaining policies and procedures, providing structure, transparency, fluidity throughout all of our daily
practices and operations. So, thank you to Susan, um any of my fellow department heads and staff that have helped me complete this and uh all the collaboration that was necessary on it. >> Awesome. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Good job. >> Yes. Great job. All right, we're going to go over
we're going to go over to the open board of health meeting. >> I do have a report this evening. It's been a couple months, but we have uh one was for sanitary conditions. [clears throat] There was uh unsanitary conditions in a multi-dwelling housing unit that included um broken pipes.
There was some broken drywall and stagnant water that has been remediated and the board of health has been working with uh with the homeowner as well. Uh we had a dog bite which a delivery driver was bit when the dog pushed the screen door open and went after him. We
had another standing water issue uh that was for a a pool that was not maintained. It had no cover and it was only partially filled that has been remediated. And we had one miscellaneous report which was the subst the substantial compliance has been issued for a new retail food establishment which was Bartacanelli.
So and that's it. That's my report. >> Okay. Thank you. This is the public portion. Would anybody like to come up on the open board of health meeting? All right, seeing none, motion to close. >> Submit. >> Second. Comments. All in favor? Hi.
>> Hi. >> Hi. >> M >> before we move on to the uh next section, being mindful for the uh professionals the and the uh police, I'd like to uh move the uh engineers and the
police up to get their report done now so they can move on. Uh, it's going to be a long night, I think. And, uh, instead of having them sit here all night, I think it would be, uh, in their best interest to get this done and and move on.
>> Okay. Let me adjourn the board of health meeting and then we'll Okay. Motion to adjurnn. >> So, >> second. All in favor? >> I. >> Okay. Um, does council want to do that? I mean, >> no. Okay. >> No. >> I think the chief should be here. I mean, I I don't mind the engineer.
>> It's up to you guys. Anyone know? >> No one. >> No. >> No, I'm good. >> Okay. All right. So, moving on to the ordinance. Second reading and public hearing. Ordinance number 2025-18 is an ordinance of the township of Maple Shade County of Burlington, State of New Jersey, amending the township code to
add chapter 155 housing code. I'm going to open it up to the public. Anybody from the public wishing to come up to comment on the housing code only at this time? Please come up and state your name and address for the record. >> [snorts] >> wants to be first.
>> Aren't you? I was going to say, wasn't she always first? >> I I I don't think I was first last time. Okay. >> Um Karen Mrangelo, 31 Overbrook Avenue. >> Um just briefly, and I know I've got my five minutes. Um it looks like about three months ago, this was first introduced at a public hearing. About a
month later, it gets table because a lot of people had questions and concerns. The the ordinance got to cut down to nine pages. Had a town hall meeting. Over 50 people attended, which looks like we've got about the same amount of group. Majority of them said, "Don't do
this ordinance. It was not in our best interest." Here we get introduced again on October 16th told us that there was a committee meeting being held. And once again, I'm I'm coming up here to object to the entire ordinance itself outside of some of the other concerns
that other people I'm sure will bring up. Um I did notice in this new revised version that there's going to be a report that's going to made be made to council. So in the event that a deal falls through on a real estate transaction, an inspection was done and
this report is be going to be given to council. It says on a yearly basis, but I think it might be even more. Does then that report become a matter of public record? My concern is there are homeowners insurance companies in New Jersey looking for any reason to drop
people that are here. So if a um housing inspector says, "Well, the roof has a few things, doesn't look like the shingles are on tight, there's some cracks in the windows," but the deal falls through for whatever reason, that report now becomes a matter of public
record. homeowners insurance companies start Oprah requesting those records as they come through. Does that mean my my property gets dropped? I've heard it on a number of occasions where they even use drones now to just fly over your property looking for any reason to drop
you. So, that's one of my concerns. I I want some more elaboration on how the violations are going to be handled. What What type of process is that? is that the housing authority filing a complaint with municipal court and it goes through the channels of municipal court. There
is a substantial amount of fines if someone does not comply with the housing um authority and his recommendations. So what happens when a homeowner doesn't pay those fines? Who who enforces that? And it does say there is jail time
that's possible. I think that's a little um ex exuberant. I'm sorry if that's not the right word. Um, thank you. It's It's just a little too much to have homeowners be even pressed for jail time if they're not complying
with the housing authority. Um, the one line at the very end of the ordinance says, "Any additional violations not included on this checklist may be cited." Again, that language is awful subjective. We had Kyle here for a short time going over some things and he
seemed to make a very good impression, but my understanding if we're going to go through with this, Kyle's probably not going to be the only person doing these inspections. And then what about the next person if he leaves and goes to another town? Do we know that we have the same amount of trust in that person
or are we going to be shopping to try and pick which housing authority person does a better job than another? Um, so basically in about 3 months and multiple revisions, ordinance is back here in front of you folks again to try and decide if it's something that should be
passed. I'm going to say that I'm the first one up here, but I'm urging you to listen to the people that have come up on multiple occasions now and ask you not to adopt this ordinance. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else? [applause]
Um, I'm Deborah Simon 61 17 Overbrook Avenue. I just before I get started, I have two I need to read and I'm going to >> read into the >> make sure I can do this. Rose Young cannot be here and she has uh given Joanne a letter and I'm going to read
it. >> Be on in a hearing. Is that allowed to be read into the public hearing? It is. Okay. >> Yes. No. >> Jeff Cap. >> Okay. I'm going to read mine first. We need >> Okay, I'm going to read this from my notes. This is yours. This is mine. Okay.
Due to me being very uncomfortable here talking, but I think it's important for our town to speak their mind and ask questions. Tonight, the council needs to stop the vote for the housing ordinance or and slow the process down. The ordinance was uh will affect everyone in
this town monetarily. What is the rush to start this in January of 2026? Is this town out of money? Hope not. Hope not. It seems like we're hurrying it for a reason, and I don't know what the reason is.
Now, let's go back to January. I'm sorry. Now, let's go back to January 25 where the three new members took office. I was very impatient. I want it our all volunteer fire department opened up immediately because that is what you
promised the town if you won. That's the three of you. John, you advised me that we need to slow down. >> It's it's irrelevant. I'm sorry. It's relevant. >> Slow down and get it right. Remember
saying that to me? Slow down. Okay. >> I am now repeating your words. John, stop the vote tonight and take the time to review all parts of the ordinance and get it right this time. Now, I'm taking you back a little
further in time. Three years ago, we were here in this room crowded from wall to wall with residents telling you, the old council, Sandy and Chuck, you were here to keep up the all to keep open the all volunteer fire department. That is
what the town's people said over and over and over again that night. But you weren't listening because after the town spoke, the council voted unanimously to close our volunteer fire department. You didn't listen to the town's people.
Heather, John, and Andrew walked out of this room disgusted, stating, "The council works for the residents. That council did not listen to their residents." That night spurred the campaign for U3, knowing U3 would
change our town. Your campaign you you campaigned on listening to your residents. I am hoping you five listen to the residents tonight. Question. Is this a done deal tonight? Are we
wasting our time talking to you? Have you all decided like the night you voted to close our fire department? Are you going to vote for this ordinance going or are you going to listen to the residents? There will be another election and no
one will forget how you voted. We want our council to listen to us. We are your bosses, not the township manager. It's true. [applause] Stop the vote tonight for the housing ordinance. get a real committee started
and get this right for the town. >> Is this Rose's now? >> No, that was mine. >> Still yours. Okay, >> I just had one more line. Okay, this is Rose Young. 2 225 South Clinton Avenue, Maple Shape. Mayor and Town Council.
I am a landlord owning a commercial building that has rentals. The sub shop building has been a supplemental income for my family and the only way I have been able to raise my grandkids and keep them in a house they deserve to grow up in. A few years ago I maintained my
parents' commercial building as they aged until they passed on. It was located in Barington. Every year there were inspections to the commercial part. Every tenant there were inspections for their apartment. I believe you are trying to do the same here in our town.
There was a list that checked off and pass and fail and there was a fee. If they had to rein inspect a fail, there was another fee. Back then, it was $50 each. There were two inspectors and scheduling was always an issue. I have no objection to the inspections. I keep
up with my buildings as best as I can. I do however have concerns with inspectors being so busy that they can't that they can hold up tenants moving in until their inspections are complete since there are so many apartments in Maple Shade. I've recently dealt with
evictions which hold us hold us up, repairs which take time and now scheduling with a new office. Unless you have been a landlord, you can't feel the hardship of this [snorts] that can offer. The township will still want their utilities and tax
paid regular right regardless of the loss of income to the to the landlord. We are already dealing with extreme insurance increases, property tax increases, material or labor cost. Why? While we are trying to hold on to something good for our kids who will be
struggling in the future, we are drowning in their effort in the effort. I am sure there will be a lot repeated issues tonight and it seems the vote will happen. But I was wondering if the township will be held liable for the things missed on these inspections that
cause harm or damage to a property. If you are taking on making such properties safe and miss something crucial, will we be able to hold the responsibility since hold you responsible since you are counting on the inspectors to do a good job in letting us know something needs
to be fixed or replaced. I for one will be counting on that expertise in each inspection. After all, I'm paying for it. I wish you luck introducing something that seems controversial. I'm sure you will have some it and will be a blessing while
others it will be a complete nightmare. Thank you for listening, Rose Young. >> Thank you. >> We need a copy of Rose. >> Anybody else from the public on the housing ordinance? You can come up. My name is Walder Krnowski. I'm at 32
Overbrook Avenue. >> My name is Walder Krnowski. I'm at 32 Overbrook Avenue. I I use Crane for short because nobody can spell Krisnowski. And Bud's my nickname, so people know me as Bud Crane. I'm a licensed realtor.
I've been licensed for 40 years, mostly residential, and I need to tell you that the real estate transaction being one of the most stressful things that people go through, uh, they usually only own three houses
through their lifetime. and the real estate transaction. These inspections usually come at the end of the real estate transaction and they're very very disruptive to the real estate transaction.
Um the buyers uh I listened to Mr. Wagner's presentation and he said, "Well, there's no requirement buyers get home inspections." That's true. But there are plenty of other instructions to the buyers recommending home inspections and
the realtors recommend home inspections. There's there was a mis people used to think that an FHA appraisal was an inspection. We have disclosures for that. And uh and they put the burden on realtors. Now we have to look I have to
look in a crawl space. I have to peek in the attic and not and and report things that we see. But the buyers get generally get the home inspections and they negotiate that with the with the seller. And this is a part of our rights
to buy and sell private property. It's our constitutional right to own and sell, dispose, use, rent private property. And these inspections especially coming in at the tail end, they usually come in at the tail end of
the transaction. Um, and you know, Mr. Wagner said, uh, well, we're going to be kind and we're going to be gentle and all this and and I I believe him. I mean, I don't think any of this is, but I I can tell you from experience dealing with different towns in South Jersey,
you know, that uh the the some of the things that'll call for and some of the things that they'll inspect are arbitrary. I mean, they're they're, you know, they're subjective to somebody's opinion. Um, Mr. Wagner said it'll be a specific list, but he also said, "Well, if I see
something, I'll say something." Well, if he says go get a go get a another inspection on this or go get a certification on this or something like that, then there's now even more work involved. And this is always after the buyer has already negotiated a condition
and repairs. And you know what a friend of mine told me? She says, "You know, bud, I uh I was a single mom and I I bought a house and I knew the house needed some repair and and I thought, gee, I could buy this house and do those little things later down the road." But
if they had to have made all those repairs, I would have had to pay a lot more money for the house and I would have been able to afford it. Mr. Wagner said that uh well, you know, the buyers can do the repairs so the seller seller doesn't have to put out the money to do it. Some of the senior
citizens don't have the money to do that and uh but then they could restrict the buyer from moving in the property. Now, how do you do that? I mean, that the buyer has to be out of an apartment. Seller has to be somewhere else. And there's nothing worse than trying to
reschedu a closing because of uh you know, finally a third party coming in and and uh asking for certain repairs. He said the real estate transaction is is just behind divorce, marriage, and
planning a funeral in terms of stress. And I it doesn't stress me. I I can handle it. But this is a this is a heart attack for some people, elderly owners that have to go through some of these inspections, bringing the house up to some international code. What do we have
an international code for? Same code that somebody living in Afghanistan in a tent has to comply with. So, Mr. Wagner said that the survey said that 80% of the surrounding towns have
inspections and uh you know and 20% don't. Well, we haven't had one in 38 years. These inspections when I started 40 years ago, these inspections except for the city of Camden, the suburban towns came on about
two years later. So, there have been 38 years of home inspections and this town's had not had one in 38 years and I think it's done pretty well. Uh, he said uh uh train thought. Anyhow, the uh
uh he said we'll have a it'll be kind you'll be able to call and get a report. this. I'll tell you about other towns. Other towns, they'll they'll you you'll call if there's a question on their report. The inspector is not here. Call back. They're all on the road. Call back
between 4:30 and 5. And uh uh but the the problem of rescheduling and closing and and redrawing all the mortgage papers, cancelling movers, putting stuff in storage, very very disruptive to an
already complicated transaction. It's real estate transactions. The real estate the real estate and the real estate financing is the most regulated business in this country. And there's there's 50 people involved in a real estate transaction if you
count these home inspections we're going to do. And any one of them can throw a wrench in the deal. And they do. So, uh, I would say we got by for 38 years without this. And I know the old 8020 rule, you said 80% of the other towns
have 80% of all the other towns have volunteer fire departments too. And it didn't stop the town from wanting to dismantle all the volunteer fire departments [applause] of which 80% of all the fire departments
are volunteer in the United States. So uh I know it's not a money grab. Somebody said it's a money grab. There there are the number of deeds transferred every year are about 250 deeds. 50 of those are uh the ones that
would be exempt. They were either interf family or maybe they were a new deed for a finance refinance or something like that. Uh but red these are residential. So you have 200 arms length deals every year. The city's not going to make money on
inspections on 200 arm lens armed length deals, but you're going to have to uh get hire three home inspectors. You're going to have to get three cars. They're going to be on the road. Uh you're going to have to have a girl type up violations, another girl typing up uh
approvals, other girl typing up uh fines and penalties. And you're going to need to create a whole department here to administer this uh these things. and uh all in the interest of your selling your private property. The uh
private property is uh excuse me, you're up on year five. Just you can just wrap it up. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, sure. >> Thank you. >> I got a lot more to say, but uh anyhow uh that's about it. >> Thank you very much. >> That's about it. Thank you.
>> Thank you. [applause] Anybody else from the public? I think somebody back there. Oh, there you are. You got to come closer to get in there. >> Robert [clears throat] Robert Turner, 170 South Fellowship. I myself I think
this ordinance is a bad idea. I agree with everybody that came before me, but I'm going to focus on one part that I saw that uh impacts me. The sidewalks, the half inch difference in level. Uh that seems a little restrictive. Maybe an inch will be better. And there's also
other considerations for those of us on county roads. I would like to have my sidewalk done at some point. One of my neighbors also had a had finally got theirs done another way, but the concrete company didn't want sidewalk people didn't want to work on a county road because they have extra permits. I
recently had to put in a gas man probably about five, six years ago. I had to pay for flagmen out there on each side of it just for the hole in the ground. And I think the same thing is applicable for concrete trucks. So if you're going to do this, and maybe this sidewalk thing could be a separate thing
as well. Maybe the township could arrange for some sort of mass sidewalk installation where each homeowner pays their share. Then you could have a concrete truck and a crew going up down the street fixing those who signed up. Make it voluntary for those of us to opt
in for new sidewalks and maybe the township could somehow cover the flagmen to make sure everything's done safe. So overall, I don't like this ordinance. I'd rather you vote it down or change it. But as a sidebar with the sidewalks, no pun intended, I there are some difficulties for those of us on county
roads with permits for a concrete truck blocking the the traffic. Thank you. >> Thank you. [applause] My name is Dave. I'm a real estate attorney. I also live on Frederick Avenue in Maple Shade, right across from the high school. Uh 90% of what I do is
real estate. I can only talk about people that I've represented. In the last five years, I've not had one person, a residential buyer, not do a home inspection. They all do it because we all push it. A flipper? No. Uh some of the cash buyers,
non-represented will not, but everybody else does them routinely because we are protecting ourselves, too. Because if we talk somebody out of doing a home inspection and something goes wrong, we're part of the the father later. So, it's very important. That's number one. But getting into this, I'm still
wondering what the big rush was. Originally, this discussion was finishing up going having committee meetings, even public hearings, and then it was not going to be rushed this year. I understand that the income from the applications will help the township.
However, why not start with the big multif family? We have so many apartment complexes, big ones. I'm not talking about duplexes. I'm talking about Fox Meadows. talking about the other three along 73 that are Maple Shade, one inspector. Can you imagine
inspecting all of that? That's going to be a problem. You're going to have to hire people just to do the commercial inspections because they have more turnover than houses. That's my concern. That makes more sense with that commercial because you're dealing with a different entity and you
have a lot more units there. That'll generate revenue for the township. I understand that people don't want to say it, but it's a business. The township has to make has to cover so we don't raise taxes. There you go. You got the big places that have all the units. You use them first. The others things like
if you come through and do a full-blown inspection, you say, "Did you get a permit for that dish that that garbage disposal?" Nobody does. They do it themselves. So now you're going to make everybody go back, hire a plumber, and come out and do an inspe, do a permit,
and go through all that. Can you imagine all the things, little things that people do? It's kind of crazy to force it. I understand why Pensalken does thorough inspections. They inspect sidewalks and everything because they didn't want to be Camden. That's different. We're not
Camden. We're not going to turn into Camden. We haven't turned into Camden without an inspection. Yes, we have our flippers that do stuff and pull wrong tickets. I understand don't pull permits, but that's enforcement and they've got to enforce that better. That I have no control over. But you can
recapture a lot of the stuff that people do without permits when you do your tax when you do your reavail. When you do your reavals, that's when you can do see what they've done. That's how you recapture some of the money you're losing on ratables. My question is the employee thing, but
you're going to have to hire employees. I mean, Kyle's a great guy. I work with in the zoning all the time, but there's no way if we do all these inspections, he's going to have the time to do this himself. You're going to have to hire more people, which is an expenditure. It's it'd be smarter to ease into it.
Maybe start with the bigger units and then you work into the other stuff and try to tailor it in such a way that it doesn't kill the older people when they sell a house because a buyer is not going to do the repairs before closing. And most times the seller doesn't have the money to do it, especially if they're older. You know, that's why they're selling as is. And if they've got to do the inspections, buyers aren't
going to pay to do those repairs. It's just going to complicate it. And it it really does create a lot of complications. And I think it it'll hurt when you come out too to some of the places, the bungalows in this house in this town that they put a third bedroom in. Maybe the ceiling's borderline for a
bedroom. So you take a bedroom away from him when you do the inspection. So then he's got a tax appeal because he's paying taxes based on the three bedrooms. And now he's got he's losing it. So the town's going to lose ratables on that, too. There's a lot of bungalows like that in this town, a lot of small
houses like that where they've added stuff like garages and stuff. It's going to be a nightmare if you try to bring all that into code or you can do it easily with this with the tax when you do the tax assessments. That's a little better, but when you have to come out
and spec and tell the people, hey, you got to go you got to go now to get permit from this, it's it's chaos for them. I mean, personally, has anybody talked about how many people you're going to need to man the inspections? It can't be just Kyle. There's no way. But he can do his present duties and do all
the inspections. It's impossible. So, have we talked about that? Has anybody talked about how many there need to add? Has anybody thought about it? >> Nobody knows because we're not hearing anything. We don't details. Listen, I know you don't want to hear it from us, but we do pay taxes and it's not cheap
anymore. It's not cheap and you're supposed to serve us. I you know, I understand you want to raise revenue. That's good. But there's a way of doing it without punishing everybody. There's there's a way. And that I talked about going to the big multi-units. We
have a bunch of big apartments. That would generate a lot. But to come to all the little homeowners, we don't have that kind of revenue to do those things. To come back and do I personally pulled permits for probably everything I've ever done at the house. But I'm different. I'm right across from the high school. I'd be a target if I didn't
pull permits. Trust me, I'd have code knocking on my door if I did projects without a permit because I'm very visible right there. But there's a lot of people that aren't and they they don't. And like for garbage disposal, I never pull one to replace mine. I replace the same one I had. I did it myself. I didn't pull a permit.
But I'm done. Less than five minutes. I'll stay away. But I just think it's a mistake. I think rushing into it, there's not a reason to rush. And you need to make it more transparent with everybody else. That's all I'm saying. You can talk all you want in chambers, but you need to make it transparent. these people vote and if you don't do the right things, none of you will be
sitting here as soon as there's election. As long as your term is up and that's what'll happen just like what happened last time, it will happen. >> Thank you. [applause] >> Anybody else in the public? >> Joe for race 310 North Kohl's Avenue Maple Shade, New Jersey.
There's three issues that I see and I don't well probably four. I haven't seen the laws yet so I would really like to read them and they should be someplace where everybody knows that it's going on in the town. I only heard about [snorts] this last night but I didn't get to see
any of the paperwork. Okay. As you know, there's a lot of places in town that don't even have sidewalks across their front yards. They don't have sidewalks because the township didn't want to tell them where they could put the sidewalks back in 1964. It's been that way since
1964. There's no curbs. There's a lot of problems that are happening and I understand the township wants to make it pretty and all that and I don't disagree, but we've been trying to get curbs and
sidewalks and we haven't been able to do so. And that's a problem especially if this ordinance goes through because it like one of the gentlemen said here let the township put the curbs and
sidewalks in and it goes on my tax bill for that block or whatever wherever they put the curbs and sidewalks. We don't have them right now. We haven't had them. And when they covered the street and they only did half the street because the other half
looked like it was pretty good. So now potholes are showing up on the other half of the street instead of them doing the street all at once. That's a little different too. But this is my concern. There's a lot of people that are older.
Some of them die and they just they can't fix nothing if they die. So that means a house is going to be sitting there and it's going to have to get sold so the family can get their money. So it's going to get split up. It's going to be a lot of infighting
in the family because of that in my in my mind. Okay. Other thing is if somebody dies and they leave the house to somebody in their family, are they subject to the same rules and regulations as somebody that's selling a house?
That's another consideration. But my biggest concern is I don't know what your bylaws are. And everybody that comes in and inspects something has a different idea of what they're looking for. I used to put gas heaters in houses
100 years ago. I got turned down four times in a row for the same house because one guy wanted tie straps, the other guy wanted black tape, another guy wanted twist ties. Every time I had to go to a gas to the
gas company and have them come out and inspect something, they wouldn't send me the same inspector so I could do what that one inspector wanted. They had three inspectors. All three inspectors had a different interpretation of the law. So that's what I see as a problem. Also,
thank you for your time. >> Thank you. [applause] >> Anyone else from the public? My name is uh Charles Thomas, 1227 Winston and Way, Cheriel, New Jersey. I was born and raised in Maple Shade, graduated from Maple Shade High School.
I have had my real estate license since I was 18 years old as a freshman at Ruters. I got my real estate license. So that means I've been practicing real estate for 47 years and specifically in the Maple Shade area. I am licensed to practice real estate in the state of New
Jersey and Pennsylvania. As a local business person, I've owned and operated Thomas Realy Incorporated, which uh operates at Century 21 franchise for over 30 years. And uh I've become an independent uh operation for the last
three years or so. So, I've operated a business on Main Street. I've improved real estate, not just uh commercially for the business or building that I'm located in, but also several properties in town that were in disrepair. We've taken them and we've either torn them
down and built new buildings, which I'm a licensed builder to do, or we've refurbished them, or I've gotten other parties interested in refurbishing uh the the stock of housing in town. We have older stock. And I'm going to say something that's probably a little bit
unpopular with the audience here, but I do believe we need a housing ordinance. I just don't think we need this particular version. I will tell you, I was invited to a meeting. I didn't realize I was the only uh realtor that would be at that meeting. Um after the
previous uh council meeting, we were told we were going to form committees. Um I just assumed that there was going to be other other realtors at that meeting. Um, and I think that there are some rumors or perhaps some discussion that, you know, Chuck Thomas was brought in because he's going to favor this
ordinance. And and in principle, I favor an ordinance, not this specific ordinance. I see certain things that I recommended because of my vast experience as a realtor over 47 years, not only selling uh real estate um
commercially and and residentially, but also managing properties as a u landlord's representative and and managing and understanding the housing codes for both resale and for for um you know, for rentals. So I what I think I
see here is a slightly watered down version of the very original proposal that was put forward and and was tabled and and basically redefined. Um there are certain things here that I'm looking at that are on the recommended
inspection list that again I I'll point out. For example, remove any old abandoned oil tank and fill all holes. uh permit required. That includes oil tanks that are sitting in a basement
that won't rust because they have oil in them. So, they're not going to rust and they're not going to leak. Uh they're not harming anyone. Now, you're exposing the homeowner or the potential buyer to a significant expense to remove, get permits, get inspections, delay the
closing. Uh that's just one example. Um, obviously if there's an ingground oil tank, insurance companies won't insure that home if there's an ingground oil tank. That's got to be removed. And that's something that, you know, realtors, if they don't know it, should be advising their clients to, you know,
have a professional uh company come out and remove that and remediate if there's any kind of a spill. But, you know, that's one example. If there's an oil tank in a basement, and we have several homes in Maple Shade that have abandoned oil tanks, you're talking about exposing
these these homeowners to perhaps thousands of dollars of expense to remove those oil tanks. Just one example. Another example that I might point out is um all bathrooms are required to have at least one outlet. Now, they didn't specify one, I'm sorry,
they did say GFCI outlet. Um, there are several homes that were built in the 1910s, 20s, and 30s, and even in the 1940s that do not have outlets in the bathroom. People didn't have hair dryers. They didn't have electric razors
to plug in in the bathroom. Why are we penalizing those homeowners and requiring them to to now install and have perhaps an extra circuit or have additional electrical work done? And it must be permitted. It must be inspected. Again, it can delay a closing for a sale
for people that want to move and get into their their new home. Why are we requiring it if there is no outlet in a bathroom? And again, I don't want to be too specific, but I'm I'm pointing out a few things that are just not in my mind common sensical here. You know, if
there's no outlet in the in the uh bathroom, leave it alone. Why Why do we have to have them install one? Now, if they want to dry their hair, they can go in their bedroom and plug it in and dry their hair. If they want to use a razor, uh, you know, electric razor, they have
battery operated electric razors. So, these are just a few things that I point out. In addition to that, uh, having an egress window in a uh a bedroom. Um, yes, that is a safety issue. That is a concern. When we list a home, if it
doesn't have a closet in it, if it doesn't have proper egress from either a basement or an attic space, we don't call that a bedroom. We instead of calling it a three-bedroom bungalow, it's a two-bedroom bungalow because the third bedroom on the on the second floor
that's been used probably for 50 years in that manner doesn't have a proper egress window. So, we simply call it a two-bedroom um two-bedroom house. That's fine. that affects value. But requiring the homeowner now to go and if even
possible increase the size of that window opening to meet this particular code, I think is is overreaching and it's something that I I don't understand why this ordinance should ordain the
configuration of a house. Okay, these are just a few of the things that I point out. One of the other things that I was pleased to see is that they initially were looking for a much larger um uh payment or a fee for uh I think it
was $50 or $75 for the fire fee and uh $125 for the uh the home inspection fee. uh this the the meeting that I came out of, I think they talked to a few other um municipalities and inspectors and
they realized that that was also an excessive amount of money. They lowered those fees uh on this particular version, which I I think you know, you have to have some type of a fee. And as pointed out by uh another realtor here, we probably only have about 250
transactions a year where this ordinance is going to apply for the transfer of title, you know, people buying and selling residential real estate. Now, when it comes to commercial real estate, that's a slightly different different arena. uh and more in-depth inspections
are required because there's a lot more public safety and health involved. You know, if it's a restaurant, uh you know, fire exits, uh you know, cleanliness with the board of health, those departments all come in and they inspect those commercial buildings. But on a residential basis, um you know, I think
there's a lot of overreach here. I think that my recommendation to to the council would be to take one very deep breath and a step back and reconsider having more participation on a committee level.
And I believe that uh Councilman um Simon Seek had had suggested that at the last council meeting. Uh, I think that we need to to to slow the process down a little bit, really go through the the questions that these people are bringing
up tonight that are all valid questions about sidewalks and curbs and, you know, things things that not only affect, you know, the the pocketbook of the people that are selling, but also the community at large because at some point
in time, you know, the township may want to put curbs and sidewalks in front of every single house in Maple Shape. And I think that would be a worthy u project. And you know, I've seen other communities do that with um you know, special assessments and and you know,
some certain tax increases. I know that's a dirty word. Nobody wants to raise taxes, but if you're trying to build a better community, sometimes you have to make certain sacrifices. And you know, I I own property in in Maple Shade. I own quite a bit of property in Maple Shade, actually. And I've
developed property. It doesn't have a curb or a sidewalk in front of it. And I would gladly pay a special assessment to the township over an you know advertised basis over over years to put those that infrastructure in place instead of
playing catch-up and trying to you know chase after things that are failing. Why don't we get ahead of something like that? So again my recommendation would be respectfully that council not vote on this to approve it tonight but put it
back into a committee scenario. allow more participation from the community, whether it be realtors, homeowners, stakeholders in the community, and allow us to help you craft something that is going to make a little bit more common sense, be more efficient for the
township. Again, it's been noted that, you know, you're going to have to hire more more inspectors. you're going to have to get more involved in in um you know the the the processing of of the inspections whether it be failures and notices sent out municipal uh court
hearings because of uh people not complying. You know, we don't want to put our our residents in a position where they're in fear of their own their own town council and their own uh inspection process. So, I would urge you to please reconsider,
slow this down. let's get it into a committee where we can get some better information from all the stakeholders and then hopefully come up with a with a a usable uh and again I agree we need a housing ordinance but I think this this
is the wrong one. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. [applause] Anyone else? >> I got dibs. I caught dibs. >> The rules of dibs are in place. >> That's quite rude. >> I'm sorry. I stood up in the back. Just
because you didn't look back there doesn't mean it wasn't my fault. >> It's okay. So, uh, Austin Bar, 553 Cutler Avenue, Maple Shade. We'll move that so you guys can hear me. Um, I'm just going to make three very very simple points uh for council to consider
because um we've heard a lot of a lot of emotional pleas. I get it. Not a lot of actual like things that are, you know, need to be discussed, but a lot of emotional please. I get that part. Um, one, this already exists, like we've discussed, at nauseium in 80% of
municipalities across the state, and people are still able to buy and sell homes every single day in those municipalities. They're not restricted from doing it. And I would imagine the plethora of realators that are here would tell me
that they also are able to complete real estate, real estate transactions in those 80% of townships. Good. Slow down. just for the sake of slowdown. Point number two is not a reason. We've given this ample thought. There's been tons of discussion.
Townships made their voices heard as residents. You guys have had time to to deliberate amongst yourselves and individually. Slow down, just for the sake of slow down, is never a really good reason, right? So, that's point number two. Um, and point number three, again, they've all made it very clear.
They've said it several times. Uh, home inspections are not mandatory, right? So, you can opt out of it. Yeah, I get it. you have to sign papers and everybody has to be aware and there's all I get it but they're not mandatory. So stuff still slips through the cracks. I get it that. And now we said earlier the realtor has to peek his head in the
attic, peek his head into the crawl space. That's fine. Do I trust that a realtor has the expertise to know if there's something rotting? If there's a bad fascia board or there's a bad [snorts] or there's a bad joist, do I trust the realtor to understand that? Maybe not. Maybe I would trust an inspector who's been trained to do that, right? who's been through classes and
who's had training and experience to tell when things are about to fail. Those are the only three points I got. Good luck in your decision. Thanks, Kevin. >> Thank you. >> Anyone else? >> All right, that's enough. >> I brought my water. >> Was that rude, Mr. Manello? Was that rude? Cuz yelling from the audience is
rude, too. >> I'm not going to comment. You're the mayor. You You did the right thing. You got me. >> Uh, I brought my water crisis. I talk over 10 for me. >> I brought when I talk over 10 minutes. I I >> stop you at 9. >> You got You got You got your watch ready, John? >> You got your watch ready? I mean, I
talked to you for uh 16 years. What? Once, twice, three times a week. >> At least that. >> Yeah. And now you get to keep a clock on me. Congratulations. >> Um, first I want Thank you. >> Can I have your address? >> I'm sorry. Lou Manello, 19 South Boulevard. First, I do want to uh
congratulate you and thank you for the way you run the meeting because you don't seem to limit what people say. There were some remmonstrations up there when somebody who was very nervous wanted to read a letter. I can come up and read the encyclopedia for five minutes if I want.
This is a public portion. You you took care of that. You ran the meeting perfectly and you did last time, too. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. Uh, I was not going to really say too much because you you already heard a lot from me. Um, I'm going to but people
made some points, so I'm going to make some points. Um, first, I look around the room, I see people I never see. So, we have funerals, weddings, and now terrible ordinances that bring everybody together. [applause] And when Chuck was speak And when Chuck
was speaking about different elements of the uh inspection, I'm like, "Oh, I'm okay. I'm okay." [snorts] Well, my wife texted me, "We don't have an outlet on in our upstairs bathroom." So, I guess when my kid when I uh when we move on, my kids are going to have to deal with if this passes with this bureaucratic
mess. Um my uh father-in-law, we moved into the house my um wife grew up in. He raised five kids and he had some resources and going back to the 50s
and he made a lot of improvements. I can't imagine he's a gentleman. Kyle's a gentleman. I can't imagine what he's going to come into my house and say, "You need a permit for that. You need a permit for that." There's no statute of limitations on permits. I have a dormer.
I have a kitchen that extended in the back. And there's certain and yes, you know, a uh garbage disposal, you can open, you know, you can open the cabinet, look at it, you go downstairs and check, but if there's I don't know if recess lightings need uh um permits,
but if people if people have recessed lightings, they got to open their ceilings. If there's something in a wall, they got to open their walls. If there's a new bathroom, they got to open all the plumbing. It's not just opening a, you know, the kitchen uh the kitchen
door or the uh you know the cabinet to look at a uh garbage disposal, but I think someone before said this is going to be a visual inspection. Not true. We're checking drain pipes now. So, come into my bathroom. Go upstairs to my
bathroom. Go in my basement. I mean, my gosh, look at that checklist. It's going to take two hours. You know, it's a warrantless search. Um, now, Mr. uh, [applause] Mr. Zable, I really regret I really
regret what one thing you said, and that's the townwide tax assessment because don't give them any ideas because council doesn't come with bad ideas. Council has brought bad ideas. Okay? And that's what that's why you're
sitting there, the three of you, you're sitting there because council was bought brought a bad idea and they passed it and now it's happening again. You've come up with the ideas and as I said uh you heard all my other
uh objections to this ordinance, so I'm going to sit down. Thank you, ma'am. >> Thank you. [applause] Hi, Terry Cosgrove, 407 East Mill Road. I just wanted to say the township is going to pull something like this on an
issue that involves every homeowner. Why don't we get things like this in the mail? So, more people are here at the meetings. Number one, [applause] it's very invasive. Is it going to affect any of you sitting up there that are pushing for this? And
I want to know whose idea this was and why. That's all I have to say. >> Thank you, [applause] >> Carl Stride. Well, Woodrest, I just have one question. Uh, isn't the current procedure uh good enough for state requirements
for COS? >> Yes. >> So, why burden the township and residents with all this stuff? It'll just open up a can of worms. Cost everybody more money. Let buyers and sellers use their uh home inspectors and they can negotiate with prices and buy
and sell them. It'll be as simple as that. [applause] I put a load on you guys. You got enough to do. and why the residents let the home inspectors do their job. Let people do their due diligence and make good deals and use it, negotiate prices and
keep everything going. That's all. Thank you. >> Thank you. [cheering and applause] >> Jay Renwick, 40 West Lynwood Avenue. Um, I'm probably going to be the unpopular one here. [snorts]
I'm used to that. First of all, I have to say I lived in the tank in Afghanistan. I don't want that for you. I've been a tax assessor for almost 30 years. July, June 30th will be 30 years. So, I've had the opportunity to go in
and inspect a lot of properties and I know the impact of what those inspections do uh for the tax base. I work for seven municipalities and I can tell you that
home inspections are not required and if you don't require it, if you don't have an inspection, the problem just keeps existing forever and forever. So you have a new family especially in today's market where everyone's struggling
to make that payment you know they they forgo those improvements and those improvements just keep >> battery >> those improvements keep going into perpetuity. So you have new family coming in and you know maybe they can't
make these improvements and it's getting back to Chuck the oil tank. If the oil tank needs to be taken out then take it out. Don't leave it for somebody else to deal with. If the outlet needs to be done do it.
You can't leave these problems keep going on and on and on. And I understand it's inconvenient. I'm not a realer. I have no conflict of interest, >> but I believe that there is need for a housing. >> All right,
>> there's that one there. >> Does this one work? >> Yes. >> I do believe there is a need for a housing ordinance and I hear people say, "Why are we rushing this?" And quite honestly, my opinion is why is it taking this long? >> Thank you. [applause]
>> Anyone else? Good evening everybody. I will sit. I cannot stand. >> That's fine. >> I have a surgery. Let me take a deep breath. I just was listening everyone's comment and I want to address something. >> Pretty, could you get [clears throat]
closer? Put the mic closer. >> Let me finish my breath. >> Name and address. He's trying to get >> catching his breath. >> Oh, you're catching your breath. I'm sorry. >> Okay. My name is Praep Sony. I am the ex
zoning officer of this community. The purpose when I work with the town for the data transfer certification
was in respect in view of the properties which are modified either by adding the bathrooms, finishing the basement or adding the number of dwellings instead of single family. Someone might have converted
into the two family. original purpose what I discuss and what challenges my office face during the board applications and what discussion I had with the township manager was what challenges we are facing during the
board approval as well as we are not reviewing the actual situation what is on our record unfortunately whoever successor managers are coming they are trying to win the game by doing the modifications s or by implementing the
certain ordinances that's not a true way listen I tell you one example two years before or maybe two and a half or 3 years before when rental registration ordinance was introduced that time I discussed with the manager before you introduce the rental rental
registrations you make sure the property is a single family two family for family we don't have a record and whatever We find the non-conformances of those properties that has to be resolved first
before you implement the rental registrations but our managers are great for you and they want to achieve something by introducing some new ordinances similar to today they are you are also joining I don't know if you say
yes but similar situation happened during the rental registrations still those properties are non-confirming by the number of units by the number of dwellings. There might be a multiple properties which are non-conforming because originally it was the single
family over a time they have converted into the multifamilies. So those things to be resolved first and not jump on something which is inappropriate and it's a liability of the borrow liability of the town. You have introduced the
rental registration and tomorrow someone rental registration guy will challenge to the town why you are introducing the rental registration I have a single family that guy has a two family and still you are registering them it is non-compliance
they are not complying to the ordinance and still you are registering means that property owner coming with a challenge to the town that my property is two family it is registered into the rental registration program. So what what benefit you are getting since last 3
years you have invited the challenge. This town is not a reach as other towns people and the community majority are senior citizens. They cannot afford to challenge the town and that's why they keep their mouth shut or they come over
here they provide you the commentary but it is whether you have a meaning or you have a value for their comments. If not then you are doing what you want to do it. Similarly today also you will do what you wanted but the original purpose now I let you know that during the board
application what I face is there are properties which are non-confirming and those properties to regulate those property we should have some time of control registr inspections. So purpose of inspection was zoning officer at the
time of title transfer. Okay. uh at the time of t title transfer inspect the property not in view of the window tank see any property once the co is issued it is grandfather whether it built in
2000 1910 1920 or 2020 whatever is there it is a grandfather once the co is issued town cannot challenge someone if the people having a full pocket money they can challenge you and you will lose
into the court. Property owner will not lose into the court. So that scenario is not in this town because this town is not super rich. Our properties are in hundreds not in millions. So you are not facing more challenging of the people of
the community as a lawsuit against the township. But that does not mean council or whatever you get proposal from certain people and you just try to accept it. No original purpose was first
all properties considered grandfather. What zoning officer will do? Inspect the property. Is there any extra bathroom other than our record? Yes. Is there any extra number of dwellings instead of two dwelling? Yes. You will not be able to
enforce anyone to do the modification into the property. I am an zoning officer in another round right now. I am doing the rental uh title transfer certification. I conduct the inspections and it is clear indications from the
attorney township attorney that praep whatever is there that is the pre-existing once the co is issued even yesterday co is issued today it is a grandfather it is issued means it is there town has
completed his control no more you can do anything further to that only check number of constructions bathroom added Additional room added instead of one family, two family added that to be viewed and that should be cited to that
property and they will come to the board or they will go to the construction office for the approval of that thing and that property automatically becomes though it is non-conforming but it is suitable to the issuance of the title
transfer certificate that is the scenario what I am doing the inspection I'm doing only whatever is there it is all pre-existing whether it is built in 1910 or whether it is built in 2020 whether there is a oil tank or there is not you cannot ask him to
remove the oil tank see the community you have a all senior community people are starving for the social security and the benefit whatever that uh is available for them they want to get out of the property to make some money and that to make their granties happy and
you are asking him to do the modification into property no this is grandfather property whatever issues town has issued the co you are done you cannot ask them to anything any issues outside the building that's a borrower responsibility it's not a town
responsibility think before you guys there might be a 10 years or 10 councils change say last 40 years record which street improved with all ADA compliance ADA compliance rule came 15 years before
that every town has to maintain or build their street and the sidewalk and right of ways compliant to the area handicap our town no I don't see majority streets are unimproved this is your area of concentration not area of concentration
in going into the someone's home that's not the right thing think before you decide what you are deciding and see compared whoever is coming to you and favoring this audiences but you ask him what constraint over there and what challenge they are facing are those
things properly managed? No. Our joining office I was were there but even I could not manage the office with a new or additional constructions. My limitation like a rental registration program introduced 2 years before anyone I write a letter that you have converted single
family to two family. Then he said I have a rental registration for two family town has given me. Why? Because you have approved not you means council has approved that registration program before knowing the things before reaching out to each department before
reaching out to the each board before creating any kind of commission or the committee you are independently behind the door taking the decisions d under the directions of your well wishers. Okay your well wishers. So this
is the important thing you think twice. This rental registration program originally raised by me and I was I have requested to make the property in compliance with what exist. Whatever is there everything should have a permit.
If there is no permit they will go to the construction office. Oh, I finished the bedroom. I finished the basement. File the permit. Inspector will inspect and then he will issue that. Okay, your basement is good. Your bathroom, additional bathroom is good. >> Okay, your time is up. Can you finish?
>> You My time is up. >> Yeah, >> you're on almost 10 minutes now. >> Oh, anyone can alert me the time. >> Yeah, you have my time. >> Okay, thank you. >> Can't [laughter] do that. >> Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. So in that
situation title transfer every town has their own different scenario but think what is what we have it if our leg is good then we can run. If our leg has some problem we can walk but if our leg is absolutely disabled and you asking him to run
that's not a criteria that's not for you are for here. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Understand? But [applause] but I'm the zoning officer who served this town. Yes sir. >> Currently I am a zoning officer serving
to the other town. What is strategy over there that I'm explaining you? That town has each property minimum 5 million where I'm working. No property is costing 1 million. Every resident is
full of money. The day town utter a word, next day town get tends to lawsuits. Here people have no money for their living. They are starving for their hard earned money. They are not feeding to their kids. They are not paying the college and school fees and
they are paying you the taxes. And against that what you are returning? You are returning the challenges. You are returning the cost. Right? So think twice what you are bringing in. What is required is improve
the street make this ADA compliance that is more important than reaching out to someone's home which was built in 1910 and asking him to do something when he want to get out of the building. If someone were to buy the building, he will buy the building as it varies on
his will. With a consideration, it is a non-conforming or with a consideration. It was built in that year. So, it complies to the previous code. It does not need to comply to the current code. You are not a land use, you are a council and council has a limitation.
You are looking for the UCCC. Even UCCC officer also will tell you he will ask the current code of of the UCCC any house build fire before he will not touch it because it is restricted over there and now you are going beyond
restrictions asking everything. So let your zoning officer has to work. No need for any single supervisor or inspector. He will inspect the property considering it is a grandfather property. He will
compare the record with his file. He will compare the record with our tax assessor's office. What is in his record? And if there is any additional bathroom, additional bedroom or additional finishing of the basement
such things he has to request to the property owner to file the applications. Boro Township will approve or he will go for his own analysis and he will issue the permit acceptances and then after that property is done to transfer to the
next purchaser. This is the right way if you guys want to consider this is my suggestion. I was listening in the phone in my from my home and I heard let me rush. So that's why I came fast running and that's why I stopped my breath. But this is what I want to let you know
before you make any decision. >> Thank you. [applause] >> Anybody else? [applause] Anybody else from the public? All right. Yeah, >> he's already been out. No, he's already
>> uh Joan Warmer, 39 Lansancy Road. All right. Now, one thing I kept hearing that 80% of municipalities have codes, okay? And the other 20% don't.
Well, we are Maple Shake. We are unique. Okay, we are [applause] unique. And I'd like to see some heads up pretending that you're listening. >> I'm taking notes. I'm listening. >> Okay.
>> All right. As I said, we are Maple Shade now. And [snorts] we are close to certain towns. We're close to Morristown. Has anyone asked them? Well, everyone does fire inspections,
but has anyone asked Morristown why they only do sidewalks? Has anyone asked them? Maybe there's a reason. We're close to Cinaments.
Has anyone asked them why they only do a sewer line inspection? [cough] We're close to Cherry Hill. Has anyone asked them why they only inspect the exterior of the house?
Notice they are not intruding into private property. I believe there's a lot of [applause] liability involved going into somebody's house. All right.
I want to reiterate that if a buyer takes on the responsibility and a home is sold as is, okay, that buyer certainly is not going to put money into
that house before settlement. That's not going to happen. Investors were not worried about because they pay cash. They're going to take out a mortgage and if they're living in an apartment, they might wind up paying
rent. Plus, they're going to pay to do the repairs, okay? Along with their mortgage. That's a lot of money to ask a buyer who wants
finally their dream. They want to own a house. that's what they want to do. Okay? So, we need to think about that. And all of this applies if somebody's going to rent a unit also. Now, I'm just going to go
through the other stuff quickly. Uh the housing inspector or code enforcement officer shall not grant any further extensions. Now, this is under paragraph H. Well, who grants them?
who is going to grant an extension. And I notice you looking and people in the audience, they can't look because guess what? You didn't put the ordinance on their seats. That is not transparency.
When people come for a second reading of an ordinance, they deserve to see the ordinance itself. Okay. Um, smoke detectors, of course, that's
always covered. That's state law. Now, this also applies if you're even renting a single room in your house. You have to go through this big in inspection. Common sense tells you it's not common
sense. Okay, I'm still flipping through here. Exterior things sound pretty good until we get to a roof has to be sound and damage free. How is that going to be inspected?
Is the inspector going to climb up onto the roof and walk the roof like they did years ago? That's not done anymore. Okay. They inspect a roof with drones. Okay. The other stuff pretty much
common. Exterior wire very important to me. Very important. Repair and replace any damaged wood around windows, door frames, sophets. Well, that's going to take a long time. That's going to take a
long time. Um, we can't have any leaks. Okay. How about the water pipes in an attic? Are your township inspectors going to crawl up into an attic? And
yes, our homes in Maple Shade have water pipes in the attic. They do. Are they going to crawl in there and inspect them? They going to crawl into the crawl spaces. Remove all termite damaged wood.
Are your inspectors trained to be termite people? Can they tell the difference between a termite eating wood and maybe a wood or damaged wood? I don't know if they can do that, but at least they ask for certification from a
termite inspector. Now, this is the one that's really going to get you into trouble. Mention the word oil tank in your ordinance. Just mention it.
You not saying above ground. Just mention that wheel tank. Somebody moves into this house and later discovers there's an underground tank and your inspector maybe didn't even see
the signs of it. There are signs that a property could have an underground tank. There are signs of that. you're asking for a big lawsuit in that case.
GFCIS, you know, they're minimal things and a lot of the factors are not ma not major, but they're considered to be maintenance items. All of these things are covered in a home inspection.
Now, home inspections didn't start until around 1991. I know that because that's when I bought my first house, right? Maybe people didn't even think about it before because I feel Maple
Shade was born in the 60s and 70s. We had houses here before that. All right. But that's when the town really started to flourish. And maybe the town felt they didn't need
a code for this ordinance because the houses were new. What did they need it for? Okay. I want to know what is going to be done if the inspector goes into the house
and an entire addition was built to the house without a permit. I think it's been mentioned they have to open up walls. They have to open up ceilings. They have to inspect all the wiring.
That's what's going to have to be done. And don't say it's not going to happen because in my experience, it already happened to a house on Mill Road. They had a rear porch built, no permit,
and all of this had to be done at a big expense. And how about the footings for the addition? Oh, help heaven help us there. Just help heaven help us. Same thing with the kitchen that was mentioned already.
If something is overlooked by an inspector, like I said, you're going to draw lawsuits right into the township. And don't think it's not going to happen because everyone gets sued. I don't care
if you have the line in here advising people to get a home inspection. Everyone gets sued. And by everyone, we mean all the people who are here tonight
also because we're the ones paying taxes. So, you're putting everybody in that liability. Uh, all open permits must be closed.
Okay. Now, are we just talking about records that are computerized? And here we get into it. This is where we get into reality. Okay? [snorts] Any work performed without necessary
construction or zoning permits must apply. They have to apply and they have to close them out. Right? So you go on a property, happens to be recently on a transaction,
big garage on the property. All right. I pull Oprah, which I usually do when my buyer wants to buy a property. Well, guess what? The garage did not exist.
It just did not exist in the eyes of the township. There was no record of it. And you might say, well, how is that possible when one of our prominent board chairman
lives two houses away and this garage had two additions on it. It was built three times. And he always walked to meetings. All right, I don't have to mention names. You know who he is. always walk to his
meetings. Are you telling me he walked past his house three times and permitted that person to build that garage? What does that mean? That means some records have
disappeared. I would like to know where they are. All right, I'm opening the can of worms. Where are the township records? Where are they?
[applause] Another case. And there's a gentleman in the audience I noticed. I don't know if he's still here. I don't think he is. I was at a board meeting
and um someone he knew came in because they had to get something to say it was a duplex. Okay. The records couldn't be found
saying was a duplex, but the person who was applying for it used to work in this building in this building and she knew her place was a duplex officially.
Now, I've heard two things. I've heard the records were destroyed when a pipe broke in the basement or I've heard perhaps the records are up in the attic. Now, can anyone here tell
me where the records are? >> There was a time when a lot of records got lost. the construction records in the municipal building up on Main Street. They had issues down there and there was a lot of them that was lost through the 80s in the early 90s.
>> Okay. Well, that answers that question. So, if your inspectors go out and they see an addition on a house, how are they going to know whether someone had a permit to do it?
How are they going to know? They're not going to know. >> They are not going to know going back through the years. Okay. Now, if you're talking about computerized records,
then that's a different story, right? That's a more recent when you're trying to close a permit. But going into additions and everything and you don't have records for it, you're really
asking for trouble. You're really asking for it. It's going to come back and it's going to slap you in the face. We're going to have a lot of lawsuits. And I thought Mr. Crane was wonderful or whoever it was saying that the buyer is
always going to win the lawsuit. It could have been Matt Sable. I don't know. [clears throat] All right. So, I covered that. Also, different inspectors were brought up. Everybody has a different viewpoint. And that's correct.
On a recent transaction I had, a new deck was put on the house. One inspector comes out, he passes the deck. Okay. Everything's done. Another inspector comes out, he fails the deck.
You know what's going on? And all this is going on when a seller is trying to sell a house to a buyer. Home inspectors do a very good job.
Let them do their job and stay out of liability and stay out of people's homes. Thank you. [applause] Anybody else? Sorry, Sarah. You've already been up. >> Thank you. >> No.
>> No. Sorry. >> Anybody else? >> All right. Seeing none, um I would like a motion to close. >> So made me. second comments. >> Yes, I would. [clears throat]
>> So, I've been listening to everybody here and over overwhelming majority is not in favor of this and I agree with that. [applause] Um I will say that um I think in lie of this that
enforcement is an issue in our town and that we first have to start getting enforcement straightened out. Um and in in response to a couple things I don't know if everyone knows what the UC is. The UCCC is a uniform uh building code
that we follow in this state. And I'm not sure what year. It was in the 80s that it came into existence. All right. >> 77. >> 77. All right. Anything before that was grandfathered in. All right. Which means if that house hasn't been touched,
nobody can go back and make you put an outlet in. Nobody can make you put an egress window in. Nobody. Nobody. It It was built. It was issued a CO. And this is what uh Perdeep is uh trying to get
across. Once that house is built and you move in with a CEO, it's over. Nobody can make you do anything to it unless you decide that you want to build on to your house. And there is a formula for square footage that deems whether you
have to upgrade the whole house or a portion of it. And I know for a fact cuz we apply for permits for building for additions there. the majority of houses with the uh building being on are not
meeting the code. They are approving permits without making people go back and put outlets and bathrooms, without making them put egress windows in and all the other things that is on that checklist that exists that they that
they made up. If they're issuing permits without making them doing it, then why are they trying to ram this down your throat saying that you have to do it now? You don't. It's it's it's way overreach. They don't belong in your
house. There's insurance. The insurance adjusters and the people that buy the houses, that's what insurance is for. All right? Bad things happen to good people. People have fires, they have floods. All right? The insurance companies pay for it. If the insurance
companies think it's fraud, then they'll deal with it accordingly. Everybody has a horror story with an insurance company, I'm sure. All right. I think things have to evolve over time, not get something rammed down your throat all at once. All right. The the enforcement is
the issue. And you know, as far as the UCCC goes, I I I told you what it is. You know there are certain things on commercial things that the state goes backs and changes the law over time. The UCCC codes in the state evolve on an
every other year basis where they put new codes out and they start enacting them and enforcing them. But they cannot go back and make you do it. That's called grandfathered and that's what he was talking about. So everybody knows where I stand with it. So, I'm just and
I will say thank you to all the residents of this town. I know there's some people out there that don't like me and don't care for me or whatever the case is. But [clears throat] I I take this job seriously and I'm defending every person that lives in this town, their house, their rights. It's
overreach. It's a violation of civil rights in my opinion and I don't agree with any of it. There's a different way to go about doing it. [applause] I I do have one question for the council. Can Can anyone on council tell me what was the triggering? What
catastrophe happened in this town that caused all this to occur? What what what was it? What was the catalyst that pushed us this council over the edge of the township? What main event happened that says that this has to be enacted in
this town? What was it? because it's been the town's been existing for many years without any of this and it just seems like the problems are occurring recently and everything else has been fine over time. I I'd like to know can you help me out with that? Does anyone have information that I don't know
about? >> Did you? >> Yeah, I have a comment. >> Do is there something I'm missing here? John, could you help me out? >> Well, we didn't have highspeed internet 35 years ago either, but we have it now. So, it's maybe it's time to move forward. Andrew, that's >> I'd like Can I make my comment?
>> That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking is was there an event? >> Not to my knowledge. [applause] >> All right. That's what I'm asking. >> Not to my knowledge. >> All right. Okay. >> I I hear to everybody despite what Joanne I was not ignoring you. I was taking notes. Um this
this is not rushing it in. You know, everybody says we're rushing things. This this whole process started in August. I've spent a lot of time on this personally doing my homework. >> Respect. >> Respect
>> for every >> We let everybody speak and we listen. Can you please let us speak and listen? Some respect >> for every person that's come up and said what they feel against this ordinance. I've talked to people who are afraid to come up here. Quite frankly, they're afraid to come up here and speak because
they don't want repercussions. And I if I have to be the target and take the repercussions, I will take the repercussions. And I've been threatened, you know, political suicide, this stuff. I have talked to my pastor. I've gone through the research. He has told me
what if you believe this is a good ordinance, then you should stand by what you do. I I apologize if I offend anybody by saying talking to my pastor. I I know church and state thing. I have done my homework. I've talked to
builders. I've talked to actually some flippers that have said, "Yeah, that's why we like flipping in Maple Shade, cuz you don't have any standards. We're trying to bring this town up to standards." And >> I'm sorry if this is committing
political suicide, but I would like to make a motion to pass this ordinance. >> So, >> any other comments? [applause] >> No. >> Sit down. Any other comments on a motion to close? >> Just as a comment to to John's about the
flippers coming in and they like it in here. That comes down to enforcement. >> If the township was enforcing the rules and and going to the places where the work was being done, then they could catch them. They could shut the job down and make them get the permits. So, don't
confuse the two of them with that statement. All right? They're two different things. There's also a lot of misleading statements and fear-mongering out there. So, >> well, I'm just telling >> Heather I need all in favor to close the public portion. >> All in favor? >> I Okay. So, I need a motion to adopt.
>> So, mayong >> any second to adopt. >> Well, John already >> John made it. >> Well, John made it before. >> Thank you, Mr. Trump. >> We We did it. >> So, we ask you again. Do you have a motion to adopt? >> I did. >> Okay. You're second. I'll >> second. >> Okay. Comments. Wow.
>> Roll call. >> Mr. Kaufman? >> Yes. >> Miss Non? >> Yes. >> Mr. Simon? >> No. >> Mr. Zerick? >> Yes. >> Mayor Taller Rico? >> Yes. >> Okay. This is the public portion for the consent agenda items. Members of the public. >> Yeah. >> Members of the public who would like to
comment on the consent agenda, please come up. >> One minute. >> All right. I'll be quick. recess for TWO MINUTES. >> All right, we're going to take a recess for two minutes so everybody can go to
the bathroom. Good. All right. Okay. So, we're going to move over to the consent agenda. This is the public portion for the consent agenda items only. If anybody would like to speak, please come up on the consent agenda item. >> Okay.
Please state your name and address for the record. >> Uh Joanne Mortimer, 39 Lansancy Road. Uh I just have uh something to bring to the attention of the council. I'm not sure if you're aware of it or not. Uh
there was a block where um you're going to put a lean on the property. Trying to find it now. >> 196 >> was it block 101 lot 12 or so? >> 205. Okay. 2:00. >> Yes. Um I looked it up on the um my
public records cuz you know I was curious to see whose property it was and the name that came up is not the name of the person who owns the property. So I was just wondering if
your records had been updated on that as far as who the owner is. So, it's very possible that if it has sold previously that the tax office does not yet have record of the sale. >> It's quite possible. Um, the owner that
>> I saw on the public records is someone who lives in town of course and has been here for quite a while. Uh, but the real owner because I contacted the family to see if they wanted to come up and maybe ask a question or anything and they said
the property was sold, but the gentleman who bought the property, it's kind of a tragic story, uh, committed suicide. So, I don't know what state right now the property would be in. I don't know if it's in foreclosure or whatever, but
perhaps that's something you can look into. We'll double check on it. Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. Anybody else from the public on the consent agenda items? >> Okay. Can I have a motion to close? >> Second. >> All in favor? >> All right. So, we're going to do resolution number 2025-R196
for resolution number 2025-R207. Can I have a motion to approve the consent agenda? >> I'll make that motion. >> Second. >> Comments? >> Yes. um for uh 20 or 2056 and 7, I didn't
receive any of the uh the uh explanation um in my packet. So, without having the information supplied to me, I'm voting no for them three. And I'm also voting uh no to 202.
And I'd like to know uh >> you said 202 >> 202. >> Okay. Thank you. >> I would like to know since the council is uh going to be appointing this person um if anyone on the council had input on
that that person that was selected for the job. >> It's it's wouldn't be a council position actually. It was a replacement [snorts] for myself. >> I'm well aware of that. So, and the member that is being chosen for that was already sitting as an alternate on on
the GIF. So, that POS he just moved up into that position. >> Okay. >> So, I had to step down obviously for personal reason conflict of interest. >> Well, since he's stepping up then I suggest Heather or John be put on for an alternate >> which the mayor automatically is.
>> All right. >> Okay. Anything else? >> Nope. >> Any other comments? >> You're still voting no for that. >> What's that? >> You're still voting no for that? Yes. >> Okay. >> All right. Roll call, please. >> Mr. Kaufman. >> Yes. >> Miss New? >> Yes. >> Mr. Simon? >> Yes. >> Mr. Zerick? >> Yes.
>> Mayor Trico? >> Yes. >> All right. Approval of the expenditure list. Susan. Thank you. Current fund bill list 3,26,541.92. Utility fund $857,942. Capital fund is $533,2148. Our utility capital is $67,398.31. Trust fund is $5,497.24
and the grant fund bill list is $193,125.30. I do make a reminder that obviously this bill list is for five weeks. So that's why the numbers on our current fund are so high. It does include uh payments to our school district as well of over a million dollars. I've reviewed the above
bill list as submitted and I do recommend payment when funds are available. >> Okay. Thank you. Can I have a motion to approve? >> So made. >> Second. >> Comments. >> Roll call. >> Mr. Kaufman. >> Yes. >> Miss New? >> Yes. >> Mr. Simon? >> Yes. >> Mr. Derik? >> Yes. >> Mayor Telerico? >> Yes. Can I have approval of the October
20 2025 minutes motion to approve? >> So, second comments. >> Roll call. >> Mr. Kaufman. >> Yes. >> Miss Nunes? >> Yes. >> Mr. Simick? >> Yes. >> Mr. Dradnik? >> Yes. >> Mayor Territo. >> Yes. Okay. This is the public portion. Anybody from the public wishing to come
up, please state your name and address for the record. >> Jay Renway, 40 West Lynwood Avenue. Um, I'm here tonight as the commander of the BFW. Um, Sunday we dropped off a copy of our
charter that we had professionally framed and we hope at no cost to the taxpayers, we hope to have it uh hung here in the township. That that was the wish of my membership. Susan, you're gonna put it in front of taxel. >> I do. I have it. Yes, I got it today. And >> that's all I have.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> Anybody else from the public? [snorts] >> No, I don't need [clears throat] >> still have your water. >> It's okay. I should have took advantage of the uh the break, but I didn't know
when you were going to start again. First of all, Andrew, you're you're absolute Excuse me. I'm sorry, M. >> I said we would have waited for you. >> Oh, thank you. >> You're welcome. I appreciate it. You're you're too accommodating, so anyone asks. Uh you're absolutely right on the resolution. You guys pick. It doesn't
matter who's the next in line. So you were you were spot on. That stuff should be discussed, not someone else making a decision for you. Um speaking of Andrew, there's posts on Facebook. One person seems obsessed with Andrew.
That's none of our business. He I don't know why they keep going at him. It's It's a bad move. But they post Oprah requests and the latest or one of the latest Oprah requests was about Andrew
and in that Oprah request were legal bills. The implication being these legal bills have to do with Andrew. Okay, you can make whatever implica implications you want. But how does
someone know to open request that legal bill unless someone's telling him what to over request? So my suggestion is this. Get some oversight. Okay, you guys are elected officials
because the train is running off the track. Get some oversight. maybe get a third party lawyer, whether it's a lawyer or management consulting firm to get some kind of controls over what goes on in the building.
Now, I'm going to turn to myself. I work I sat on here. I I know I keep saying it. I sat on here for 16 years. I did zoning before that. I served as mayor three times. My point is I walked away unscathed with my integrity
intact. I served with you guys and you guys were friends and I've known you for decades. It's been that long. But somebody makes a complaint about something I said on Facebook to the township because I sit on
planning. [clears throat] They got a right to do that. What does the township do? Does the township say, "Hey, Lou, did you say this or what is it?" I don't even know what it is. But let's say it is offensive. I I don't
think it is. I'm always respectful. I try to be. Okay. Don't you come to the person who's accused of doing something and say, "Hey, is this you?" Don't you wouldn't you expect that to happen? >> Unfortunately, because it was a complaint that was made, it becomes a
personnel matter. It goes directly to the labor attorney and then it's in the labor attorney. >> Oh, so the labor attorney did it. Nick Rapisi did it. Okay, I'll talk to him about it. You're throwing him under the bus. >> I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. >> Let me finish if I may. >> I can sign on Facebook as John Zarabic
if I knew how to spell it. >> No, I share it. >> Well, I don't have an account, but you can sign on. >> I actually I can spell your name when I write you down. I can't spell it in my head. >> Okay. So, anybody can sign on as Lou Manello. I'm not signed on as Lou Manello. I changed it [clears throat]
for for whatever reason. So, first you got first thing you got to do is find out from New Manello. Did he say it? First thing you got to do is find out what it is. Solicitor, you can back me up on this.
Due process, right? Find out what it what's offensive. Oh, well, you may get the you may get the post and say that's not offensive. Susan gets the complaints. I don't know if she got it. She may say that is offensive. The next step is
let's let's contact Lou Manello. I was denied my due process. Now, what's that say about me? Nothing. It says it about you.
Because whoever sent that letter to me, a former councilman, former mayor, a unanimous appointee to the planning board, by this council, could care less what you thought. Is this how you're you're going to allow residents to be treated? Is this how you
uh people you appoint to uh positions of trust, you're going to allow them to treat us this way? You need some controls. I I suggest a third party, some kind of management consultant. Yes, Andrew, >> I have a question because I don't get on
social media. >> I don't either. >> Uh but um it sounds to me that you were just having a discussion. Um and it also sounds to me that not only your due process, but your civil rights, your first amendment rights to freedom of
speech were violated. I >> I took it that I took it that way from the township because I was I was speaking out against this ordinance. >> Okay. So, >> you have that you have that right as a as a taxpayer of this township, >> right? But I'm I was truly left with per
with with speculation. I mean, that's all we were talking about. There was a date of complaint, but that's a date of complaint. That's not the date that was posted. >> Well, I can say this. I knew nothing about it. I can't speak for them and whatever. >> I didn't know anything about it. >> All right. So, there's two of us that
didn't know anything about it. I apologize for it because it sounds to me like they're coming after you because they don't like your opinion. And that's that's not what we we live in America as far as I'm concerned. >> Yes, we do. >> I guess what I'm asking is that what would you expect the township to Well,
like I said, I had no idea what you're talking about. >> Well, I'm on Facebook. >> What would I expect? Someone comes to Susan, she takes the complaints according to this volunteer handbook. Do you know we have a volunteer handbook? >> Yes. Yeah. Okay. So, she gets the complaint. I Here's a complaint against
L Manchello. He said XYZ. It's offensive. Okay. Do you have the complaint? Do you have Okay. You have the complaint. Can you read it? >> Not publicly. >> Why not? >> Because it's it was a personnel complaint. >> I'm the person I wave my confidentiality.
>> Because it involves personnel up here. So, I did not >> It involves personnel up here. Yes. Oh, the complaint came from someone up here. >> Yes. So again, it went to the labor attorney as that's what I'm supposed to Chuck. To answer your question,
someone found what I said offensive. They complained to Susan because I'm on the planning board. Next step is Susan can find it offensive or not, whatever. But she can say to Lou, let's get in touch with Lou. Manello. Did he say this?
>> Okay. >> I don't believe. >> Is that how personal compliance complaints are handled? That's not how they're handled. That's not how >> uh that's that is pure bunk. >> I didn't hear what she said. >> That is pure nonsense. So you can accuse someone and not solicitor. Can you accuse someone and then act on that
accusation without talking to the person that's accused? >> It it is not a trial, Mr. Mitchell. >> Can you would you do that? >> Yes or no? >> I know. I listen. Yes or no? >> It's not a yes or no. There are
procedures for >> is the is one of the procedures to work to reach out to the person being accused. >> Not in every case. No. >> Oh, come on, man. That's nonsense. You all know better than that. You all know better than that. All you got to do is watch TV. You can't sanction someone
without asking them their side of the story. >> And for you to say that, I'm disappointed. Mr. Mitchell, there was no sanction there. There was no >> there's a there's a letter on the >> you are not deprived. >> It's intimidating sir. It's in there's
an accusation and a finding. >> It may be intimidating without any dep there's an accusation and a conclusion and a finding without any due process. And you're going to sit there and you're
going to obey that. Folks, it's going to cost us a lot of money one day if we don't reign in this building. >> I suggest get a third party consult. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Anybody else from the public? >> You ready? >> Uh Joanne Warmer, 39 Lancancy Road. >> That was consent agenda. I would like to know if the council has considered going to two meetings a month. >> Yes.
>> Have we made consideration for that? >> We're working on our 2026 dates. >> What is that? >> We are working on our dates. >> I'm very happy to hear that. Thank you, >> Stephen. >> Steve Schmidt, 520 Sunset Avenue. Um, I don't even know what to say about what
just happened. But anyway, uh, my concern was I opened something I brought up back in September, uh, that I waited for the Opra to confirm that letters were sent in to rectify it. >> And as much as you're screaming, everyone has to do everything right. Your rental property is still not
registered. Mr. >> I'm going to clear this. I'm going to say this right now to you in public and open. That house is not being rented. and you are opening up yourself to a can of liabil. Listen, I'm going to sue you for defamation.
>> That house is my house and it is being used and lived in by somebody that is not paying rent for it. It is not a rental property. It is my house and I'm allowing somebody that's having financial situations to live in it free.
And if you keep pushing this issue, >> it's under an LLC. >> I don't care what it is. >> And that makes it not your house. It's it's it's a company you own that rents houses. It >> I don't rent that house. I don't rent that house. >> Doesn't matter. >> If you continue to come up here and bash me in public to try and make me look bad
cuz you're a sore loser that you lost the election, you go right ahead. But if you continue to do this, you're going to find yourselves in harm's way. And not only a lawsuit from me, but from the people that are in that house. Because if it becomes public, then you're slandering them, too. You have no idea
about that situation. and you're standing up here making false statements about me and what I'm doing and you have no idea what you're talking about. And if it comes down to it and it goes to court, I'm telling you, you will lose. So, you can pick and choose. You lost every account. >> You can pick and choose what you want to
say. You are making yourself look bad to the people of this town every time you come up here and single me out. You have a problem with me and you want to make me look bad and I'm not doing anything THAT'S BREAKING THE LAW. THAT HOUSE AIN'T being rented. Period. So it doesn't >> rental property. Whether you're getting
money from it OR NOT DOESN'T >> IT'S NOT A RENTAL PROPERTY. >> DO YOU LIVE IN IT? >> I AM GOING TO LIVE IN IT. BUT IT'S >> I DON'T LIVE IN IT. IT'S MY NO. DON'T DON'T TELL ME TO SHUT MY MOUTH. >> Any Anybody else IN THE PUBLIC? >> THAT HOUSE is owned by me and if I want
to let someone live in it, I most certainly can. It's not being rented. I'm not collecting money from it. So that's the end of the story, Steve. He's not. That's okay. >> I'm tired of you people bashing me in public and going after me because you didn't like what happened. Everybody
that's up here, the way I've been treated by this council, by the people in this building, by you, by the formal people, is very disgusting to me. As far as I'm concerned, it's just evil. It's like retribution to try and take me
down. I was elected just like you were for the term. You came up here. You did your thing. All right. Now, now is this the way you're pushing off your campaign to run for for council next time? >> We're gonna move on. We're gonna move on. >> That's it. >> We're going to move on. >> Steve, stop coming up here.
>> Andrew, come on. >> Andrew, we're going to move on. >> I said please stop. I didn't say don't. >> I don't know what it is. >> I brought >> Austin Bar 553 Cutler Avenue. Oh, it's what?
>> I brought handouts for everybody. Um, I figured that we haven't had enough of an interesting discussion this evening. So, I wanted to conclude with this. >> Um, I've been a resident of this town now for over a decade. Um, although some
people would like to yell at me that my name is not on a loan. So, apparently that doesn't make my opinion valid here. Well, guess what? It's still valid. I still come and sit through these meetings whether there's something controversial or not. I come and offer my opinion. I come to planning and offer my opinion. I volunteer in town. My opinion here is certainly valid. And
what I've witnessed since January has been nothing short of appalling. So what I've brought before council today, what I've handed to you is a draft that I put together myself because I wanted to give you something to work off of if you choose to adopt something like this. But what I feel is that over the past one,
two, three, since January, we'll call it, Councilman Simon Sex behavior overall has been completely unbecoming of a councilman and deserves censure by the board, a formal recognition of his behavior. So, what I did was I gave you
guys a draft resolution of censure. Uh I'm not going to read the entire thing in the in its entirety, but I will go through um the three bullet points that I put in there that were the three I think most egregious uh examples. Good. So the
I I didn't say anything when you were talking. I sat back there. I was quiet. I waited for the entire 12 minutes. So I sat through the entire thing. Everybody can sit through this. Good. Um, so, uh, the first incident I wanted to point out was on October 16th, 2025 during the
open public comment portion. The attorney and a resident were having a discussion, actually it was Joanne, uh, relating to her comment. He was trying to clear some things up. Mr. Simon Seci interrupted the attorney, instructed the resident not to answer, and proceeded to bait the attorney during the open public meeting. The outburst begins at time stamp 5211 on the published township
recording of the meeting and continues for a minute and 29 seconds until stopped by the mayor. At that time, addressing a resident by name in his rant. This is an example of disregard and disrespect towards the members of council and the township attorney and the members of the public. Second example, October 2nd, 2025 during the
special council meeting, Councilman During the open I'm sorry, during the special township council meeting, Councilman Simon Senior interrupted a reading of the explanation of the proposed ordinance to demand to know who was on a committee and why he was not included. When the attorney tried to maintain decorum, Councilman Sinusc
bered the township attorney for over a minute and accused him of unfounded claims and overreach. He then asked a question uh he then asked a question and braided the township manager over her answer. This outburst continued for 4 minutes and 55 seconds. The outburst began at time stamp 13 minutes and 31 seconds on the published meeting recording and continued through time
stamp 18 minutes and 26 seconds. During that outburst, the councilman showed no regard for the rules of the quorum or respect for his fellow council members uh and the professionals on the panel. The third and final that I chose to site was on July 17th, 2025 during Open Public Township Council meeting.
Councilman Simon Sex Senior directed his comments at the township manager. In his rant, he stated that they should work through their problems, but it can be done nice or it can be done nasty. It can be done a lot of ways, which can be portrayed as threatening to a township employee, breaking the rules of decorum, meeting etiquette, and uh could be
offered and seen as a veiled threat regarding working together uh in this unacceptable manner. These are the three examples that I've cited as the most egregious. There are innumerable examples. If you go back through the township meetings, you're welcome to see them. What I believe is that unless
council takes a stand now and forms a formal resolution of censure against Mr. Simons for his behavior at these council meetings, he will continue. I have put in the back of the packet a full explanation of what a formal resolution
of censure is just in case anybody has any questions. You'll also see in that explanation provided that in 2022 there was a challenge to a lower non-federal level resolution of censure. The Supreme Court held that resolutions of censure
can be administered at any level of government. That's all I had to say. Thank you. >> Anybody else in the public? All right. Can I have a motion to close? >> So made >> second. >> All in favor? I >> I >> All right, we'll move over to staff and professional comments.
>> Mr. Simons, we'll start with you. >> Well, I just want to say to the people of Maple Shade that uh if if this enter if this notion is entertained, everyone that voted for me, their civil rights are being affected. My job up here is to
talk and defend the people of this town. I didn't come up here to be friends with people. I came up here to do a job that they elected me to do. And if if I seem harsh or I seem like I'm out of control, I'm going to say sometimes I am. There isn't anybody in this town could that
could take the beating that I've received for the last four years and stay sane. All the pressure and all the things that have been done to me, my family, and the attacks that are ruthlessly being done on a consistent basis is out of control. You want to
talk about fair and decorum? Let's talk about those things. They're lies and it you can do whatever you want. They want to censor me, that's fine. That's fine. But they're violating every civil rights per of the person that voted for me. Not
just me, their civil rights. This goes way deeper. And because there's finally somebody sitting up here that's going to defend the people and not just follow suit at the end of the day and just roll with the tide. Now that now the apple cart is being upset and they want to get
rid of me. Well, I didn't break no laws. I didn't do anything wrong. The quorum and all this other stuff that you're talking about is subject to your opinion as far as I'm concerned. And at the end of the day, I am aggravated. I'm upset all the time coming up here knowing the
things I know that the things that are happening to these people in the town and expecting the people that are representing them to do the right thing. That's my opinion and I can probably say in pretty good conscience that most of the town people seem to seem to feel the
same way based on them coming up here with their civic pride and making their statements tonight. So if there's anyone that doesn't like me, I'm sorry. I'll apologize for my brassness. I'm not a polished person. I'm not an educated person. You can consider me anything you want, but at the end of the day, I'm
here for the right reasons and for the people of this town, and I'm not going to apologize for doing the right thing, just as John brought up earlier. All right? Maybe my tactics aren't too too uh appealing to people or they think I'm yelling. I'm half deaf. I talk loud.
That's just my personality. But if you want to come talk to me and have a conversation and get to know me, the perception of who I am and what I am will be greaterly different than what I'm portrayed to be. And I'll leave it at that. Everybody knows where I live. Everybody can find me. Anybody's welcome
to come knock on my door anytime they want and have a conversation. >> John. >> Oh, you. >> Okay. Um, Andrew, let me tell you that I would never vote for a censure of you. I'll tell you why. Thank you, Chuck. >> Because I wouldn't want it done to me.
>> Chuck, you're you're an upstanding person as far as I'm concerned. >> I would not want it done to me. >> And I know we've had our disagreements, but that's what this is all about. Chuck, >> I'm sorry. I would not vote for censure for anybody here on the board because I don't think anybody would want to have it done to them. >> That given >> You're a good man, Chuck. I'll say that
in public. That being said, um let me say that I think last meeting, attorney or m Mr. Attorney, Mr. Counselor, you said to us that we're in violation of a referendum that happened before
these three people three these three people came on and that was to combine our two land use boards. Correct. >> That's correct. >> And I'm telling you right now in the in the reorg, we need to do that. We need to combine those two boards
and uh make sure that uh we do what the voters of this town asked for because it was approved on a referendum from the voters of this town. They said yes, you should combine your your two uh your two land use boards. Now that given when we
do that that will eliminate the need for the uh board that I'm sorry s Andrew that you currently work on the site plan board uh we won't need that. So that's that's my suggestion in the new uh when
we rework. The other thing is that and we can't do it now but and I asked the township manager to take a look at what local towns pick up leaves. It's funny most of the towns pick up
leaves. I'm suggesting that from a sustainable standpoint that's ridiculous. We should not be picking up leaves. We should ask people to mulch them in. it feeds their lawns and uh it would reduce costs for us that we
wouldn't have to do. So, I know we're far into it now, but I suggest next fall or whenever that we do that and ask people to please mulch those leaves in and don't leave them out. You leave them out if they don't get picked up in time, they they get into the gutters, they get
into the storm sewer, and it backs it up and you end up getting flooded. So, uh I'm going to ask people not to not to do that. So, that's all, man. I guess that's enough for me. >> Thank you, Andy. I'm going to go on the the light side and say, >> "Oh, happy Thanksgiving." >> Happy Thanksgiving. [laughter]
>> And enjoy yourselves. Enjoy your family and uh we have a fine community. So, you know, just we'll work together and everybody should have a happy Thanksgiving. Thank you. >> Thank my comments.
>> Okay. Brian, did you have anything? >> Not at this time there. Thank you. >> Okay. All I have is everybody have a nice Thanksgiving. Moving over to all business operations. Thank you. Uh the punch list for North Co and Roland Avenue project was received this afternoon. So that project is near
completion. Our DPW, as Mr. Kaufman said, is in the midst of leaf season. Zone 5, which is your Friday trash collection begins on Monday the 24th. So zone 5, Friday trash collection begins on Monday for leaf collection. Back stops at >> Excuse me, Susan. Can I interrupt you one second with that with that? the
zones. Where can a resident find the zones? I was asked that um the zones. I know they go by the trash, but is there something on the website that >> on our website? It's on there on the popup where it's also on the Facebook. >> Thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt. >> Yeah. >> And it is by zone. It's day one is
Monday, day two is Tuesday on so on. >> So, the back stops at fields number four, five, and eight have been replaced at Woodlon Field. DPW is also continuing their park safety checks and are working through the swing set chain replacement program. This involves all chains and S hooks at those playgrounds to be replaced due to age and wear. If you
haven't noticed, the DPW garage had a facelift. New paint and new windows were installed. Our recreation department is gearing up for several Christmas holiday events. The annual letters to Santa program beginning November 26th through December 9th. During this period, children are invited to drop off their letters at Santa's official mailbox that
will be located here at the municipal building. All letters are then received. All letters that are received by December 9th will receive a personal reply from Santa himself and the Maple Shade elves. This program continues to be one of our most heartwarming seasonal traditions that we've started here and we are grateful to our recreation
director for staying on Santa's nice list and for making that a special experience for families. Photos with Santa are December 5th. These are two time slots. There are two time slots, 6:00 to 6:45 and 6:45 to 7:30. Those who want to meet with Santa and snap a photo need to register online or they can
reach out to our recreation director. On Saturday, November 8th, the recreation department hosted a health fair here at the building. There were vendors offering health screenings, providing health and wellness information along with nutritional guidance. I want to thank Lauren personally for all her work in bringing these programs to our community. Our business and economic
development department recently rolled out their new social media page. The page is used to highlight businesses, engage our residents, and provide useful information going on in the township. If you haven't done so, please go ahead and like and share that page. You can find a link on our home Facebook page. The Burlington County Regional Chamber of
Commerce just released their 2026 and 2027 annual Burlington County magazine. Maple Shade is proudly in here. We have a Maple Shade is open for business advertisement. So, that's in our in the book. Um, this just goes this is placement as part of the ongoing efforts
to attract new businesses to Maple Shade, strengthen our regional partnerships and promote Maple Shade as a vibrant, welcoming community for economic growth. This week, many of our staff members attended the annual New Jersey League of Municipalities Conference. This is a three-day conference. It's the largest municipal gathering in the nation. New Jersey
League of Municipalities Conference provides extensive learning opportunities, meaningful face-to-face networking, comprehensive showcase of a lot of the latest product innovations to New Jersey's local government officials and professionals. It's also where we get most of our CUS, our credits, and
typically it's $55 to $60 for the three days. Um, we can go and we can get those of us that have licenses, we can go down and get those educational credits and uh instead of paying, you know, the $200 to $300 that it typically costs throughout the year. And then just a few noteworthy items from some of our other
departments. Our tax collector has reported that we are at a 98.2% collection rate so far for 2025. This is up slightly from last year at the same period. As previously reported in other meetings, our municipality is transitioning from the state health benefits program to the southern New Jersey regional employee benefits fund.
This move significantly reduces the projected increase to both the employees and the township. As you recall, the state health benefits was uh propos not proposing implemented a 36.5% increase. So, prior to making the change, our anticipated increase for
2026 was going to be approximately $450,000 overall. With this change, which would have raised so that would have raised our annual cost from 1.5 million in 2025 to just over 1.95 million in 26. So, we did our research, we negotiated, we
collaborated, and with our employees, who I want to thank, uh, they took the warning seriously. We are now projecting an increase of just under $100,000. So, that is a tremendous state savings. While it is still substantial, it's far more manageable and represents a major improvement in overall in our earlier
estimates. Again, a thank you, a huge thank you goes out to our employees for embracing the transition. It's never easy to transition out of a uh out of a health insurance. It's scary. like to thank our finance department for their hard work throughout the open enrollment process and of course council to you all for listening, supporting and then
ultimately authorizing the muchneeded change. Lastly, reports for calls for service from our uh from our public safety departments. EMS reported that they are just at 2,839 calls for service through October, which is up slightly over the same time period
of last year. Our fire department has answered 462 calls for service. They too are up slightly over the same time period last year. And our police department at the end of October was at 23,400 calls for service, up 1,56 calls from the same time period last year. So
uh quite busy. Our public servants, our uh uh public safety officers are all of our departments throughout the municipality are seeing an increase in services they provide while still managing their budgets very well and staying within their allotted mount allotted amounts. At this point of the year, we are at 88.5%
of the way through the year and our budgeted expend our budgeted expenditures are tracking at 81% overall. So, they're doing uh they're doing a great job. So, that concludes my report and again, yes, happy Thanksgiving to everybody. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Yes.
>> Did everybody switch over? I mean, at the meeting we had the discussion to make sure that the employees knew the importance of this. >> Open en open enrollment is finished. We've gotten all of our employees register. All of our employees got registered and all of our retirees as
well. So everything is in and we're we're good for a January one date. >> Dennis, can you come up please? >> Moving over to the engineer report for R&V. >> Yep. I think every Oh, that one's good. Oh, that's good. Look at you. You did
bullet points. I read the report. >> I like I got this one. >> Good evening. >> Good evening. Um, so there's a lot of projects going on and some of them are exciting and uh I just want to bring you up to date. So, I'm not going to go
through all these, but reach out to me any time if you have questions on any of the projects that are ongoing in water wastewater or recreation or the the other capital projects we have ongoing. Uh the one thing I want to bring you up to date on is the New Jersey Infrastructure Bank. Uh the town now
qualifies for a lot of principal forgiveness and other programs uh through the I bank and uh we want to take advantage of them the best we can. So we've already signed up for technical assistance and uh we're one of four communities that are ahead of that got
approved on that already. So what we're doing with that is we're updating the GIS maps and the D is paying directly for that. So, this is involving a council. Uh, we're doing an asset management plan. We're actually using an AI technology where we're going to be using our GIS maps, putting in history
in there, and it's going to give us predictive information of where we could expect the pipe breaks. And so, we can maybe then focus our our priority projects in the future on these areas where we may u would incur having
emergency repairs more often than than not. um part since we uh have this technical assistance program uh you you qualify as a town up to $2 million in uh planning and design for different projects. And so we're going to be
submitting there's a sample resolution which you're going to have to pass uh in December. And then there's various projects which you're going to authorize that are going to be contingent upon uh the state funding those projects. Um there's probably like $60 million
available and there's a lot of towns. So the fact that we're ahead of the curve here with this, we're trying to get in early so we can uh be the ones that are getting the the share of those uh funds. Um so that's something we're pushing forward. Uh part of also for the I bank
uh you approved this evening uh fund year number uh 2026 which ends in July. applications have to be in by the end of the year and we've already started the IBA bank process but so we don't have to go through various environmental
permitting and things like that for the projects. We're doing equipment purchase. So, we've identified a number of uh uh critical equipment including um a new jeter for the township which can be used for the um the sewer system and for storm sewer and a few other projects
that are equipment are needed and we're hoping to get 100% funding for those projects. So, that's pretty much a summary of the update of the the things that happen with the I bank. Uh we also just awarded a contract for lead service line replacement in the township. Uh
there's about 300 plus uh uh known and unknown lead service um in the township. EPA is requiring that each town replace those. Uh the contract came in over $3 million. We're in the process of going
to interimm financing with the state and we're probably going to get 2 million of that uh as principal forgiveness on the project. We'll know that better next month. we at least get 50% of the the cost, but uh it's probably going to be the two million, which is the maximum
that they give out to any town. Um other projects ongoing, we're hoping to close on purchasing additional land next to the Kings Highway water plant. Uh there were some things with the antenna company as the second lease which has uh sort of dragged that out but I think
some of those issues have been resolved and we're hoping to get a closing date here coming and we really need that uh that plant really hasn't been run and we don't want to lose our firm capacity and with some of the new regulations for for
POS and uh for 14 dioxane and some of the unregulated contaminants which are going to be regulated in the future we want to be in a position where we have a um adequate water supply and we're not forced into doing additional purchases from outside agencies. Um
we have ongoing projects at the Main Street Water Plant with a lime system replacement. Uh that'll probably take place uh in the springtime. Uh we want to have that in place before uh the summer water demand period comes up. Uh
we received bids on North Terrace and that'll be coming before you for next month. Also for award, we're hoping to get that water main and also a um we're putting in um uh some storm piping that
we can tie in uh uh sump pumps in those streets to try to get the water not only out of the sewer but al so from discharging into the street. So we're doing that with this project. It'll so be our first project doing that. So, it's going to be a sample. We're gonna have to work with the homeowners to talk
about possibility tying in and uh providing connections for them. Um, but the idea is to get the utility work done and then you have an NJ do project funded project for repaving that uh street next year.
Um, so there's an Main Street sewer. There's going to be um um with with the housing project, there's going to be uh work done coming up in the next two weeks. And then also uh the county finally issuing a permit to the booth
for a section of uh uh pipe that they're supposed to be replacing also on on Main Street. It's been a problem section. We uh identified it when we did some televising inspection and there's some and we've had some issues there with u some of the commercial properties where
they've had issues with backups and so forth. So, this section needs to be replaced and we finally got through the county permitting process. So, that should be moving forward here also this winter. >> Okay. >> Uh on the parks projects, um we're up at
Green Acres for approval for improvements at Buttonwood Park. um police chief here has been very helpful working with Annie and we're finally receiving bids uh here in the beginning of December for improvements to the the police building is to bring it up to
some of the do department of corrections um requirements for that. So hopefully we get good pricing in for that. Um we also have a number of other road projects we're finishing out. Um, so if there's any questions on any of the
projects, uh, again, feel free to ask us. >> Thank you, Dennis. >> Thank you. >> All right. >> Speaking of road projects, um, the uh, Front Street where Maple ties into it.
We need to uh, I don't know who was Were you Were you guys Dennis doing the engineering on that or was that alignment? That was from That was >> Can you look in down to where Maple ties in? It's one way. It used to have a right and a left lane and do not enter
signs that it's all been taken out. Nothing's nothing strike for right and left. >> They're going to rerip it. >> That's on the punch. >> It's on the punch list. >> All right. Okay. >> Yeah, we identified that and talked to R&B last week about it. >> I can call. >> Yeah.
>> Thank you. >> Moving over to the police report. >> Thank you, mayor. You're welcome. Uh we concluded our shaders feeding shaders school district food drive and the winners of that food drive were the fourth graders at Mole Wilkins. So our nonprofit the Maple Shape Police
Chaplain Association on Wednesday, November 5th, we delivered 45 pizzas and thank you to the yellow submarine who partnered with us on that project. Uh they were served up by our community affairs officer, Corporal Diego Alvarez. He replaced Misty upon her retirement. And we have a new SEO3 officer down
there, Joe Tuchccuchi, retired from Haden Township PD. We picked up Joe uh along with the school staff. And I just want to give a special thank you to Principal Steve Wormsby. He always really comes through on this food drive and uh he was immensely helpful that day getting the pizzas out. So I just want
to thank Steve. Uh also want to thank Gina who partnered up with our uh us with our fill the truck and also our youth and sports competition food drive which followed that one. Uh very special thank you to our business collection sites, especially the high yield locations such as Eastern
Lift, Stonehart, Citizens Bank, and Rise Chiropractic. Those four always come through with a a good supply of food, which is great. Uh also a special thank you to Maple Shake, Kuster Stand, Joe and Johnny Fischer, and Darin uh for allowing us to stage in their parking lot and for providing free treats for uh
donation drop offs. We literally took in thousands of items to be donated to the food bank. I was there along with tenant Dan O'Brien on the receiving end and I could tell you like the shelves were looking a little bare and uh with the amount of food that we brought in,
they're stocking them up pretty well now. So that's good heading into the holidays. On the youth and sports competition side, Maple Shade Cheer came in first place. They brought in 1,178 items. Uh we had Maple Shade softball with 856 items. Maple Shade Street
hockey 848 items and Maple Shade football with 100 items totaling in at about 3,000 items just on the youth and sports competition which was tremendous. So I want to thank everybody who participated in that event and I know the food bank uh staff was very happy
what we brought in that day. On Tuesday, November 18th at 1 pm, our agency along with the Berling County Prosecutor's Office, the FBI and New Jersey state police held a stand-up press conference at the Indian Cultural Center in Esham to announce criminal
charges against Nazir Hamid for the murders of Shisville and her six-year-old son, Anish Nara. These murders occurred in March of 2017 in an apartment complex in town. And our agency has never stopped working these cases. Over the years, there's been a
lot of myths and disinformation regarding this case reported in a variety of formats all over the world. And much of it has to do with us not caring, case being cold, having no viable leads. And honestly, nothing could have been further from the truth. In our detective bureau, we prominently
keep two pictures hanging up. One of Shiscilla and Anish together, and one of Anish in his OLP school uniform. It's been a daily reminder to our investigative team to relentlessly seek justice on behalf of these victims. I'm proud to say we did just that.
[applause] Currently, we're engaging with our federal partners in an effort to extradite this subject back from his home country where we believe he currently resides to face trial here in the United States for these murders. I am hopeful that there will be a day where this subject stands in a courtroom
here in the United States of America to answer for these horrific and unimaginable crimes. I want to thank all of our county, state, and federal partners who helped make this day possible. But I especially want to thank our team here at Maple Shape Police Department who relentlessly pursue justice on behalf of Sashi and Anes
because they deserve nothing less. Lastly, our agency has taken up the lead in the county to help the prosecutor's office stand up the fatal accident investigative team or the acronym of FATE. A protocol is being developed in conjunction with the county chief's association, of which I'm the first vice
president, to explain how and what capacity team will be activated. Many agencies in the county will supply manpower to help support this effort. In furtherance of this, our agency recently purchased a new laser measuring and mapping tool known as the Trimble. All traffic officers and detectives will be
trained on the Trimble technology to help properly map a scene as it's quickly becoming the tool of fate. So ourselves, Eve Sham, Mount Laurel, the Bley County Prosecutor's Office were all purchasing this technology. So it'll all be interchangeable when we're linking up together to go and investigate these
scenes. I want to personally thank Lieutenant Brian Davis and traffic officer Matt Shaw for their hard work on this project and for helping to stand up this new team. And that is my report. >> Thank you, Chief. >> Chief, I do have a question for you. >> Yes. High Street, the new stop street.
Are we having I see we're still having >> the officers are out there pretty much every day uh doing enforcement when they can. And we have issued summones down there as a result of people running the stop sign. Um there's obviously other streets throughout the township that were out running radar on our summones.
Our numbers have been up. Uh and the officers are doing that in between running 70 and 100 calls a day. And as you heard, we're over a thousand calls up. and domestic violence, disturbances, mental health, drug addiction, shoplifting. It ties up the officers a tremendous period of time. So Matt's out
there. We also have our officers in between calls out there. Uh is it stopping the issue of speeding? Uh I'd say Matt had the traffic devices out there and I think it stops the speeding up to the point of the stop sign when
they stop. Um, but the stop sign's not a solution for everything and we discussed that with you, myself and the captain when we met with you. So, we'll continue to add that into our rotation of where we're at on the streets in town. Um, but you know, it's a challenge and people
continue to when the officers ask them why didn't you stop stop sign, they continue to tell us I didn't see it. I didn't know it was there. And obviously advanced warning signage and things that we talked about we're working on with DPW. Obviously have that stuff correctly installed. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> You're welcome. >> Andrew, we didn't have slate plan, did we? Do you have anything on plan? >> Was canled. >> Okay. All right. Moving over to sustainable maple shade. Uh we did have a meeting. Sustainable maple shade received silver again with a 520 points which is really good because the surrounding towns, the bigger towns only
got three 350. Uh the Halloween costume shop was a huge success. They are getting ready for the farmers market again which will start in May. They also received a $20,000 grant for a tree project and they're working on restarting the compost program at the schools.
And moving over to 2026 RFPs is that you? >> Yes. Um yes. So you all should have received the RFP list. Uh that was you know we went out for the RFPs. Um there'll be a more formal discussion. Um there's a couple things I know that brought that you had brought up some of you had brought up to me. Um, so when we
go into close session because it is negotiation and contractual, that's where we'll um >> Okay. >> All right. Moving over to Does anybody else have anything for old business? >> I could if I could just address something. Sure. Thanks. >> Um, so I I just wanted to take a moment to address with all of you some claims
that have been made. Um, some things that I heard too up here this evening. Uh, the one is the tail is wagging the dog. Um, and just overall it it it's been going on for the last couple weeks or the last couple meetings um about let's face it, Susan has too much control. So, I just want to say that
that statement, the tail wagging the dog does not reflect how the council manager form of government actually works uh or nor how Maple Shade was even operated has operated since the voters adopted this form of government on January 1st, 1975. Like that's when the council manager form of government um came into
play here. It was based on a recommendation of a charter study. And just so that everyone knows that under the council manager form of government, you all are the ones that are in charge. Plain and simple. That's that's what the law is. You set the vision. You
establish the policy. You determine the priorities for our community. The township manager does not create policy. The statute is very, very clear. There are things that are very clear to the statute that the township manager has to do. Instead, myself, your administrative
team, we provide professional insight. We provide technical expertise. We're going to give you informed recommendations based on our day-to-day responsibilities based on our expertise, based on the things that we've learned and what we've been trained to do. This helps or hopefully helps you all to make grounded decisions. Once those decisions
are made, we then carry them out. I oversee the daily operations. I'm responsible for personnel. I handle budgeting and projects and ensure that the township services are delivered in an efficient and transparent manner in accordance with the laws and the policies adopted by the council. This
structure is put been put in place by the people, not by me, not by past councils, not by any other manager before me, by the laws and by the people. There's no political influence. It's done that way on purpose. It's so that we can make routine decisions and operations. It's to strengthen our
fiscal oversight. It gives residents both the benefit of both accountable elected leadership as well as experienced professional management. It is far from the tail wagging the dog. I have taken exception to that. It is not. You all know I speak to you all on a
daily and weekly basis. There's communication that goes out. So, I just wanted to kind of clear that up that this council manager form of government is not something that I've created. It's not something that I've decided this is the way it's going to be. The statute is clear. The law is clear. And if anybody has any questions, I'd be happy to go
over it with them what my exact responsibilities are. >> Well, I'm I'm going to say then in the interest of transparency to the people of this town, anything that gets done business-wise in this town then needs to be put on the agenda and discussed here,
not in an activity report and not with two council members coming into your office because that's not transparency. I've been cut out of everything. That that that's what's that's what the goal is to get Andrew silenced and keep him
quiet. And I'm I'm telling you that that's not transparency. You sat there and just made some statements about how the government works. And the perception is not a good one to the people out there. The things that happen, the way
they happen, the people want answers and they want to be a part of it. But when they get disgusted with it at the end of the day because it's just getting rammed down their throat, they throw up the white flag and they leave. However, I'm not throwing the white flag up and I'm
not leaving. I'm asking you right now, stop the activity reports as if they're the agenda for communications cuz that's that's on the verge of of not following the law as far as I'm concerned. And put it on the agenda for discussion here for
us five to talk about it. That'll be transparency and that'll be a true statement from you because right now I don't feel that way. >> So I respectfully disagree with you, Mr. S. That's fine. I just let me finish. >> I asked you to to to put it on the agenda >> and I want to respond to that. My
activity reports which you did accuse me the last meeting that they are a violation of the open public meetings act. Those activity reports are for me to bring to you all things that are happening in the municipality. Those discussions whether or not they happen or not
between the five of you are to engage you all. I will I you want to talk about transparency. Mr. Simon, please let me finish >> those activity reports. I have never heard anything from you about anything on in the nine months 10 months that
we've been here. Well, I I read them >> and I'm glad that you do, but we've never had that conversation. And my statement wasn't made at you or at council directly. It was in general about what the council manager form of government is. >> I I >> my suggestion is is that and I have said
it to both the mayor, to the deputy mayor, and to both councilmen here. I have said to them, if you have a comment, please reach out to the rest of council. I am I am here to work at your pleasure, which I do, but my activity report is to keep you all informed. When
those activity reports go up, there are things that wind up on if the last activity last week told you exactly what was going to be on the agenda. >> The meetings that are had in your office with two council members, that's that's not being transparent to me. >> Those are times when two council members or one council member comes up and asks
me questions about the activity report, about something that they heard. >> Now, there were meetings about other things. I I look I I'm asking you to do something that is transparent to people. And look, I'm going to just make this clear. I I don't want to respond to to
[clears throat] those because everybody is looking for something to to jam me up to find something illegal to have me thrown out of here. So, unfortunately, I'm kind of on my guard all the time in defense of myself because all the
attacks and everything that goes on. So quite frankly, I don't see the problem for us to discuss it right here with the five of us. An activity report is not >> You don't want me to do my activity report to keep you in in the loop. >> If that >> No, what I'm saying is to put it on the
agenda and bring it up. >> My activity report from Friday has items on there that I told you. >> Some of them are, but some of them aren't. >> What isn't on there? >> I'm not talking about this specific time. What about the meetings with the fire department that you had with you and John being in her office?
>> I don't know if the other council members know it, but I have a problem with that. >> That's that's like having a secret me. Look, I I I said my piece. I'm not going to you you can continue to do the way the things that you want. I'm not agreeing with that. I don't think that
that's the way that we should be doing it. And there's other people that agree with me, too. So, we we'll call it a stalemate, >> which is fine. my activity reports will continue to do because that's the best way that I can get information out to the five of you so that you can all see it. If the five of you choose not to
discuss it, if you choose not to call a council person, if Chuck chooses not to, Sandy chooses, Heather chooses not to, that's not on me. My job is to bring the information to you and I will continue with the activity reports. The information that I tell you that will be on the agenda has been on the agenda. I give you copies of things that we've
done. Well, >> so if there's a meeting, if I'm review if I'm asked to schedule a meeting, I will schedule a meeting. >> Again, that's that's my position. >> Well, I I feel that if two council members want to sit and have a
discussion with you about a topic that uh they want to talk about as a township manager, you should say maybe that should be discussed with the other three council members, not just with two of us. That's that that's >> but that but that's what is said. If they choose if the if council members
choose not to speak to one another, how do I control? >> Well, there there you have it. Everyone chooses not to speak with me. So, I guess I'm just on the >> I didn't say I didn't say they don't choose to speak with you. I said that >> it's it's a >> but you're telling me that what I'm doing is wrong. That I'm the tail wagging the dog.
>> I didn't say you were doing anything wrong. And I didn't make that statement. I was making a suggestion to you about how I see things. That's all I was doing. I didn't accuse you of doing anything wrong. I didn't say that you were doing it wrong. I said in the interest of transparency, that's what I
said. >> So then my suggestion is going to be when the activity report comes out and there's an item on there that you would like to see on the agenda that maybe I didn't say will be on the agenda to please let me know. >> You have the right to put anything you want on the agenda. You don't need our permission to put something on the agenda. Okay.
>> All right. Does anybody have anything else for all business? >> Thank you. >> No. Seeing none, moving over to new business. 2026 2026 reorg date. >> Susan, you put that on there. >> Uh, yes, we did. We need to select a date for reorganization. Um,
>> got the first seven days. >> Got to be within the first seven days. So, January 1st is on a Thursday. So, that means the second is a Friday. >> So, the 5th. >> Monday. >> Monday. >> Monday the 5th. >> Sure. The court dates. >> That won't be court. >> That's not Yeah. >> Okay.
>> Monday. >> Monday the 5th. >> Everybody good with that? Monday. Okay. >> Is that 6:30 or is that 6 because it's reorg >> 6 p.m. >> Okay. >> And then yeah, just that date. We were going to talk about the um the meetings
for the year if you wanted to. Uh I know it didn't show up on new business, but that's kind of under reorganization. Okay. >> Um I know that there's been some discussion among some of you about whether or not you wanted to go back to two meetings. There's been discussion about doing two meetings every month, just doing the summer times [snorts] or
doing a hybrid of that. Um, so this is your time to discuss. >> I feel we need to go back to two meetings a month. >> You guys I I prefer to keep it at one, but for special
>> special purposes if we need a second meeting uh on a hybrid possibly. >> So Terry and I are not going to be the popular ones. Terry and I would like to see it go back. I >> two meetings at least at least 48 months of the year. you have 48 hours to post
that. Is that correct? post the agenda >> and especially the meetings that we had for you know for right so that puts a burden on you however I don't think that's fair to the people of the town 48 hours is not enough notice for somebody if it's an open public meeting for them
to be able to come up here they have lives they schedule things they have work I don't think it's fair to to uh you know Susan or Terry to to spring things on as they go you know just like the health insurance she could maybe Susan could discussed that at the
meeting prior to that and she wouldn't have had to do that. I you know I I just think that the township needs to do two meetings a month for fairness to them and to fairness to the people of the town. They're scheduled meetings. They happen. They know they're happening and
if people want to come up here, they can schedule and they can get up here. >> All right. So since the summer and around the holidays is only one, can I suggest maybe two in January, two in March, one being the budget meeting, and then maybe two in September or or
October? I don't know which one's the busier for you guys. >> September and October. What about >> September and October are fairly busy for us. We're trying to get towards year end. Um January and February, my opinion would be January, February, March. Definitely two meetings. April we could
do one, but we definitely are going to have a budget adoption that month. Maybe >> um May, June, July, August are >> November and December are all one year. >> Yeah, May, June, July, August, November, and December are technically I don't want to say slower months, but you know, in our world, we say no work November
because everybody's, you know, away. There's so many holidays. Um >> and you don't know what's going to come up. >> No. And you still have the ability you still have the abilities to do a special meeting during those months. >> So, are you two good with January, February, and September? And then if we have to add a special one, >> January, February?
>> No. January, March, and September. >> Oh, January, March. Oh, wait, wait, >> wait. Say it again. >> We're Terry and I are using January, February, March, April. I know. Sorry. >> February, March, April. >> So, >> so are you okay with >> my three or the ones that are she
suggested or I know you were at one. So, >> so you're good for January, February, and March. >> Yeah, sure. >> Okay. >> So, January, February, March, and then September, and then possibly April. >> Well, September and October. >> September and October. >> Yeah. September October will be two. >> Well, then we're basically
>> back to almost square one, >> right? Yeah. That's why I said three. >> So, right now we'll just do that. Be five months. Um, >> we'll just do September now. And if we need to add October, we will. You guys go good with that. >> Okay. >> Sandy check. >> Yeah. Okay. >> So, January to March and September. Yes.
Four. >> Four at two. >> Yes. >> Eight of one. >> And then if we need to add one in October, we'll know that by August. >> So, eight. We we'll know in September if we were to need to have that. >> So, >> how about we schedule them now and if they're light, they're light. We come
in, we do it, and and we get done. And then that way it's already posted for fairness to Susan and Terry and we don't have to scramble. >> I I I think we're just cutting the meetings out and it's not fair to those two that have to do all the work.
>> And it's extra work that they're not counting on if we have to have the special meeting. and then Terry's jammed up with it and then it's not fair to the people of the town because they only get 48 hours notice on the website. It doesn't even have to be posted in the newspaper. Is that a correct statement,
Terry? >> Yes, it's actually changing. >> It's changing in March. There will be no more newspaper advertisements. Everything is electronic, >> right? Which is actually makes it easier. >> All right. So, January, February, March, and September. We're going with two. >> January, March that >> January, February, March. I thought it
was April, September. January, February, March, we will do September two. >> September we will do two. >> Okay. Anything else on that? >> All right. Moving back to the second fourth Thursday. >> Thursday. >> Yeah. I have like 5th, 22nd, 12th, 5th, 19th, >> 12th.
>> I can fifth 22nd, 12th, 26th. >> Yeah. >> And then uh 26th again. And then in September it would be the 10th and the 24th. >> Well, I think March you might have to do the fifth because of budget. If we need to, we can we'll call a special budget
meeting there. We'll know. >> Is it less than six months of full full months? >> Yes, it's four months. January, February, March. >> So, compromise with me. >> We just did. We just did. >> You just did? >> Yeah. >> I think 6 months is is not unreasonable for the people of this town.
>> Okay. >> I I I don't know why we're cutting the meetings out. >> That That's my opinion. Everybody heard it. So, you are going to do what you want to do. So, not >> Susan, are you guys good? >> Yes. >> Okay. Moving over to number two. Support opposing Senate Bill S4736, which
enhances the ability of religious and nonprofit organizations to convert certain property to inclusionary development with affordable housing and bypassing local planning and zoning procedures. So, that was uh sent to you in the activity report to review um just as it says on there. The league also the
state of New Jersey, the league is asking us or asking municipalities to oppose this. I will say that at the league on Tuesday, I sat in on the mayors and the legislators resolution campaign and this was on there and it was passed. So, it got full support from
basically the the governing bodies of Yes. of New Jersey. >> So, they are asking each municipality to do it as well. And basically what this does is that this does permit the religious and nonprofit organizations to convert their properties into inclusionary developments. That means a municipal planning board must allow that
conversion and it will be considered a permitted use not rec requiring a use variance. Um so the affordability requirements that you know the 20% of the units must be reserved for very low, low or moderate income housing. Uh the tax exemption, there's a bill that specifies that these projects are
eligible for long-term tax exemptions. And then the zoning compliance, the conversion must still comply with the municipal land use law. So any zoning requirements are there. Um, but it again it's just it's preempting local control. >> Okay. >> So, if council is in favor of this, we
do have the resolution. It was something that I had sent to you. Um, we're ready to put it on the agenda tonight if you want to add it and it can be done and then we can send it up to uh the legislature. >> I'm okay with it. >> Let's do it. >> Okay. You guys good? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Sure. So, it'll be um resolution
208. >> 209 208 and then 209 will be closed. >> Oh. 208 would be resolution in close session. >> Right. So this 2089 209 be closed. >> So 209 is closed. >> Yes.
>> So do we need um I guess we need to make a motion on that. Somebody >> I'll make that motion. >> I second it. >> Any roll call? >> Yes. >> Mr. Kaufman. >> Yes. >> Miss Non. >> Yes. >> Mr. Simon. >> Yes.
>> Mrs. Rnik is absent. Tallerico. >> Yes. >> All right. So you want to read us into closed? >> Yes. >> It's 209. >> Mayor for your pleasure. Resolution 2025R 209 resolution to meet in
executive session for the following matters. Number one, matters relating to employment relationship and two matters relating to litigation negotiation and the attorney client privilege for your pleasure. >> All right.
I have a motion to >> anybody second. >> Second. All in favor? >> All right, let's go into close session. We'll be back out. We're back on. >> All right. Can I have a motion to adjurnn? >> No. >> I'm sorry. I have to come out closed. >> Can I have a motion to come out of
close? >> So made. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> Can I have a motion to to adjurnn until the township council meeting scheduled for December 11th, 2025 at 6:30? >> So second. >> All in favor? >> All right. Everybody have a great night. >> Everybody have a good night. >> Happy Thanksgiving. in Thanksgiving.
Yes, >> I will call you >> tomorrow. That's actually good.