Good evening everyone. We're going to call the meeting to order. Please stand for the pledge of >> allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the republic for it stands one nation indivisible
and justice for all. God bless America. All right. Public notice of this meeting pursuant to the open public meetings act has been given by the township council in the following manner. Notifying the township clerk September 25th, 2025. Mailing notice to the carrier post,
Central Record, and Burlington County Times on September 25th, 2025. Posting notice on the official municipal bulletin board on September 25th, 2025. Anyone from the public wishing to speak will be permitted to address comments to council during the public portion only. Please make sure you place all of your
phones on mute. Um, roll call, please. Terry. >> Mr. Kaufman, >> here. >> Miss Nunes, >> here. >> Mr. Simons, >> here. >> Mr. Zuradnik >> here. >> Mayor Terico >> here. All right. Before we get started, I did write something up to say to everybody. Good evening everyone and thank you for being here. I truly
appreciate the phone calls, the emails that I've received from many of you who want to stay informed and understand the issues we are discussing tonight. Your interest and involvement makes a big difference. Tonight's meeting is going to run a little differently than our usual council meetings because we want to make sure everyone has the same opportunity to ask questions and to hear
the answers. After council has reviewed the discussion, I'm sorry, the disc and discuss the proposed housing code ordinance, we will take a short recess. On your seats, you will see a copy of the updated draft ordinance along with a note card and pen. That draft is provided so you can follow along. Please
remember that it may not represent the final version. During the recess, if you have a question, just write it on the card and drop it on the basket up front. When we come back, each question will be read aloud and answered. To keep things moving and fair, similar questions may
be grouped together, but we will make sure that everybody's concern is addressed. After the Q&A, we will move into the public comment portion of the meeting. Anyone who wishes to speak will have up to five minutes to share comment with council. Please know council may or may not respond during that part. This
process is meant to keep things respectful, orderly, and make sure every voice has a chance to be heard. So, going into the discussion, an ordinance amending that township code to add chapter 155 housing code. Kyle, are you going to start? This is the Q&A
session. >> So, I I think just to start uh you everybody on their seat has exactly what council has in front of them. It's a copy of the draft ordinance. There's also a document that Kyle had put together um and that we'd worked on with the solicitor just that would answer
some questions that we've gotten over the last uh several days. Um additionally, you know, this evening this is to just discuss the housing ordinance from what we were speaking on the 7 on the 18th of September till now. There has been changes council as you've all been made aware. Um so if you need a
copy, please let me know. But I think we're uh we're ready to go. Kyle, I think if you could give the um the overview of basically what we've done, where we've gotten to and and what this ordinance is about and solicitor, if you'd be happy to chime in, too, that would be great. Thank you. >> Sure.
>> Hello everyone. My name is Kyle Wagner. I'm the community development director here. I'm also zoning officer. >> Kyle, if you could just speak into the Yeah, just bring it in closer just so we pick you up. >> I've been uh in these positions for about 25 years doing these inspections. Okay. Um when I came to the town I I
realized that there was no regulations on certificate of occupancies, inspections, um and no inspection process that was involved. So coming up with the ordinance that I've written in numerous other towns, um we proposed this ordinance. listening to you the
other night in the council meeting and listening to your concerns, I went back and did some revisions based on making it a little bit more user friendly and understanding to the public to what is required and what's not required. Okay. So, we went through we made some revisions. Um, do they have a copy of
this on their desk? Okay. Or on their >> on their chairs. Yeah. >> Um, so you can see in red is all the changes. >> Oh, they don't have the color copy though. So, >> yeah. >> Oh, they don't have that. >> Yep. They don't have a color copy. Oh, okay. >> So, we'll just have to explain. >> So, basically, we did some ver some
verbiage on it. Um, certificate of occupancy is now certificate of inspection/certificate of continued oct occupancy. Um, I also indicated if you look at 155-1A, this explains some of the things that
are required for certificate of occupancy um, in order to protect the public's >> page 155-1 letter A. >> First page Okay,
>> first page. >> That's because this one's on top. >> Oh, >> that seems the first page. >> Yes, we're looking at the township of Maple Shade ordinance 2025-9. >> Correct. This is with the ordinance
number on the top of it. >> Okay. just explains in a that in order to protect the public's health, safety, and welfare, uh, the owner of the premises or owner's agent shall obtain a certificate of inspection/certificate of o continue occupancy from the housing
inspector, code enforcement official prior to the occurrence of any of one of the following. And then it lists in each one what would require certificate of occupancy and continued occupancy inspection. Number one is a prior to any sale,
transfer or conveyance of of title whether individual or business entity. Two, prior to a transfer of title, whether by purchase or other transfer of any impro improved property from one individual or business entity to another
individual or business entity. three, prior to any commercial sale or occupancy, whether rental, lease, or new ownership. So those list the categories of what would require a certificate of occupancy slashcertificate of continue continued
occupancy. Then we just re rewent through and we we verbaged certificate of inspection/certificate of continued occupancy throughout. If you turn to page, >> and I guess Kyle, not to interrupt you,
but just so people are following along in B, C, D, E, and F, those were no changes from the original ordinance. The only change that would have been in there was that the words a certificate of occupancy was changed to a certificate of inspection/certificate of continued occupancy. Those were the changes that were made. Correct. So
before we go any further, I have a question because there was a motion made at the last meeting for us to table this and put a committee together and I'm hearing the word we out of Kyle's mouth and I would like to know if there was a committee formed who was on it and why
didn't why are we rushing through this th this this was supposed to be tabled for the people on this town and as far as the committee's concerned I personally want to be the liaison on that committee and I want the realers. I want the people of this town on the
committee because as far as I'm concerned, there was no committee. Now, unless the four of the council members sitting next to me authorized us to move without having the committee, somebody's just doing what they want without without following what we what the
council wanted done. >> Mr. Simon said, >> "No, I I'm Excuse me. You had your chance. Now I will speak. I I'm not asking. >> You're not going to scream it." Excuse me. I am speaking to these people over here. If I want to ask you a
question, I'll ask. Stop interrupting me when I'm talking in this meeting. >> Then if you want to keep the corn, please let me talk and stop interrupting me. >> You were aware over a week ago that we intended on having a full meeting. >> I did and I'm doing what I
>> did not raise any objections. You'd like to >> No, because I'm doing it right here in front of these people at an open public meeting. I don't have to present an objection to a meeting. I can let this meeting happen and let the people that elected us come up here and talk. Okay?
I have an opinion. I have the right to speak. So, I'm going >> Then stop interrupting me. I'm not done speaking. >> So, back to what we were saying. Could somebody please tell me if Sandy, Chuck, uh, Heather, or John authorized this to
move forward without having a committee? Did any of you do that? >> Yes or no answer? >> There was no authorization. >> All right. So then this meeting let me finish so I can explain what happened. >> You answered the question. It was a yes or no question. Mr. Simon said as far as you are.
>> We don't need to have this. >> We don't need to have it. We didn't have a we didn't have a committee. >> Mr. Simon, you asked a question. Now let us answer. Susan, >> it was brought up to you all in the activity report that there was a suggestion to have a community meeting
where everyone could hear and everyone would have a voice except so that there wasn't just a couple people on the committee. And I reached out to each of you and I asked Yes. I asked if you would be okay with a special meeting to discuss it. >> I am. >> And then in the activity report, the
activity report said we have made some revisions. We sent that out and since then there has been no objection. I've heard, no, let me finish. I've heard nothing from you. So, this evening's meeting was set up so that everyone in the town who wanted to speak would have
the opportunity, not just three or four people on a committee. >> So, as far as the activity report going back and forth, as far as I'm concerned, that's violating the open public meeting act. Okay? If you want to have something discussed, we don't have it discussed
through an activity report. Those people out there have the right to have the discussion here. And if we had the meetings like we're having, we could just bring it up at the regular meeting. >> If you had an objection to having it, you could have said that to me. When I sent you the message and asked if you were available, you said yes, I am.
>> Yes. You asked me if I was available and I said yes, I am. And I was very clear and I'm talking because I have the right to talk. I'm an elected official by the people of this town. >> And I have a lot of problems with the way this town is operating with the Open Public Meeting Act. So, let me get this
straight. You're actually against the entire public voicing their opinion. >> No, what I'm against. What I'm against is I'm glad to see all these people out here. What I'm against is that the the idea that we didn't have a committee formed because you felt it was more
important. That committee was those people that were out there. Why can't we have a town hall and then maybe have a committee? Why can't we just have the town hall and let everybody see based on the revisions that were given? Because the idea of the committee was to do the to do the res uh the the changes on
that, not have the people up here just make the changes without the people be involved. Those realtors had legitimate points coming up here that needed to be answered and they were willing to sit on a committee for this town for the people of this town >> and come up here and act with the town
doing it. And none of that happened. And as far as I'm concerned, we promised the people that in the motion that we made and the vote we made and we're not having that for those people. And I have that right to say that to these people and they need to know that that committee wasn't formed.
>> Okay. Is that all >> for right now? Yes. >> Kyle, you can continue. >> When I say we, let me clarify that I went over this whole thing. I changed this whole thing. I proposed this whole thing. I brought this into this town. No
one else did. When I say we, me and the solicitor had a meeting this uh this afternoon and we revised it even further to make sure that it was legal and it it spelled everything out for this town for the safety and the welfare of the people, the public, and the occupants of
the homes in this town. That's why this ordinance is here. >> Go ahead. uh under the la I guess it's the last page on your book uh which would be 155-7 >> under in uh in
>> page eight and nine I had eight on mine I'm not sure what you had okay under that you will see that it says enforcement of inspections a all inspections will be enforceable by the direction of the New Jersey State Housing Code NJA5-28
and the International Property Maintenance Code that was put into place and on the previous proposed ordinance from we eliminated about eight pages.
So from 15 155 7 all the way to 155 >> 16-16 was eliminated and it all referenced the book. The books are here if anyone would
like to see them after the meeting. I do have them here and you can see the codes. These are state housing codes and national codes that are required to be maintained. Can't change these. These are in black and white. Can't change them. So that way that alleviated any concerns
cuz I heard some discussions on what is dampness, what is this, what is that. Everything that's in that book is code. It's black and white. You can't change that. That is code. Now going through that, the reasons that I brought this in was this is an older
town. I grew up in an older town. I know what towns like this need and what they they need to be safe. So that inspection process was put in place mainly for those reasons, the health, safety, and welfare of the people, the public, the patrons, and everything, everybody that
goes into those homes or commercial units. That's why I put this in place. It's not to come in, hammer people over the head. Make sure you're doing a million things. It's to make sure that the safety is is is adhered to. And that and that is why that is in this is in
place. Well, proposed to be in place. >> Okay. >> So that's all. So we'll take a short recess now. >> Well, does council have does council have any questions or discussions? Question. >> This is for you, Kyle. If you could
>> You want to wait for everybody to stop talking first? >> Okay, I'll wait. >> G, >> am I good? Y >> um Kyle, could you elaborate more on 155-2 because there was some concerns brought to my attention about people buying houses as is
>> and putting a lot of the um a lot of the um burden on the people selling the houses. Like you said, it is an older town and we don't want to burden the older people any further. And I'm going to ask a second. You want to can I ask my second question too?
>> Sure. Um there was also brought to my attention about um fixeruppers um young people buying into this town would like to fix up their house um but they don't have another place to you
know young people just starting out you need a place to live. So from what I'm understanding here they can live in the house as long as there's no life hazard in the house when they buy it and they have
substantial amount of time to >> no one person supposed to be speaking >> you can't hear why conversations going on >> thank you >> I would just like you to so >> because it took me a while to understand
that and I would like you to elaborate on that so that people understand >> sure >> what I understand >> so I'll address the asis sales 155-2 certificate of transfer of property title okay those inspect infections are put in place. They're for ASIS, fixer
upper, rehab sales, okay? Where it's dilapitated. It needs a lot of work. It's for a buyer to come in, purchase the property. The seller can, as long as it's cleaned out, there's no belongings in it. It just has one battery operated sealed system smoke detector within the
unit. It doesn't have to have them per level. It's one within the unit. That is the only requirement for the transfer of title. That alleviates the seller's responsibility. The buyer can come in, they cannot live in the property. It's a fixeruppper. Okay? They have they have
90 days to fix up the property, start working on it, get permits, whatever. Within that 90-day period, they must apply for a certificate of inspection slashccco inspection. Okay? During that time period, it gives them
another 90 days to work on it with an additional 30 in writing. So it gives them seven months to work on the property. Now if they are diligently working on it's taking them more than seven months. The inspector has the right to extend that as long as need be
to work with that person to get the work done. The time frame is on it because you're going to have people who come in and I've seen this in my experience. They're going to buy a property. They're going to sit on the property. It's an eyesore to the neighborhood. They do nothing with it. That's why the time frame is put on this so that we have
some teeth to go after people. Okay. >> What you're talking about with the young couple that comes in and buys a property. >> Yes. >> Comes in, buys a property, they do all the life safety issues. They do the smoke detectors, fix the wiring, whatever. They have painting to do,
whatever, carpeting, tiling, whatever. Non-life safety issues. We can the inspector can grant them a temporary co to move into the property and put a time frame that is negotiated on with the se with the buyer on how long do you think
it's going to take you to get this done. There can be extensions up to years whatever it may take to get the work done. So there is workability for people who need the help and the money and the finances whether they're young, old, whatever to get the things done.
>> Okay. Thank you. say that >> I do have one thing to say. >> Good. >> That that was my only question, Kyle. I just wanted to make sure. >> Uh it's not really a question, >> but when I got on council in 2019,
I asked at that time why we didn't have a CEO. So, I have known this is going to eventually get here to Maple Shade because it's been that way. Like I said, I've been here almost 40 years. So, I'm well aware
of a CO and you know I I didn't see it as anything that would be upsetting to the seller or the buyer. It actually protects you in in many ways because when I bought I think I mentioned before uh that I had an issue with the house I
was bad because I didn't get the inspection because it wasn't what was done at the time here. So, I I got that. I was I made I made the decision to do that, but then I would could have and
was going to attempt to to sue the the uh the seller that sold me the house because the things that were they weren't taken care of. It was very simple to me because I had to go through a CO when I moved down here in the home that I had sold. So in a lot of ways it
really does protect both both sides that way you know some of the things that are blatant can be you know brought to attention. So that's all I'm saying that this has been in the works and this question has been asked even with the uh commercial uh properties that we've
moved forward in that was the first step. So this is just the next step that's been discussed even before Susan was here. So I just wanted to put that out there. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Nothing. >> No.
>> Okay, we'll move over to the uh see if this Nothing. >> I didn't forget about you. >> No, I'm good for >> Sorry. Okay, >> you guys don't have anything, right? >> Okay. Nothing. >> All right. So, we'll move over and we'll take a short recess and in that time again, we have a note card and a pen. If there's a basket up here, if you can put
your questions in there. >> Uh we want to do 10 minutes, five minutes, 15 minutes. Okay. 10 minutes. >> 10 minutes. Everybody. Good. Do it again. This is going to be last call for questions unless anybody else needs more time.
That's all we have. Are we have everybody's questions? All good. >> Okay. Somebody back there. You still Okay. Take your time. >> Okay. >> All right. Susan. >> Okay. First question. Is a co required
when transferred one for $1 to a family member or if due to divorce uh space buys it or a spouse buys out a partner is a co required so is a co required when transfer for $1 to a family member that's the first question of it >> yes
>> it is okay and what's the what would be the the process >> one family member say can you repeat >> is a co required when transfer for $1 to a family if they buy it for $100. >> No, that's an exception. >> That's an exception. Okay. Or if due to
divorce and the spouse buys out a partner, is a co required? >> Sorry, I couldn't hear you. >> If it's due to divorce and the spouse buys out the partner, is a co required? >> No, that's an exception as well. >> Is that covered somewhere in here or is
that just in a general code? >> That's in the general code. >> Okay. Why can't a committee be formed and find a reasonable middle ground to which all can live with, which is what was actually voted on? >> I I still want to have the committee. We
we I made a motion. John second it and we voted yes for it. And as far as I'm concerned, I have I I have a thing here that I read all this and this is my take on this that I can read to the public. I can either do it under comments or I can do it now. But I have a serious problem
with all this. The way it transpired, the way it's getting forced down their throat. If we want to do a housing ordinance and we have a committee formed, it could take up to a year. We need to look at it. I'm not disagreeing that we need to fix things in this town, but we need to do it with the people of
the town. We don't know everything. And those two questions right there proved it. There's nothing in the ordinance about it. And if the people that are doing this on a committee want it put in there, it should be put in there. >> So now is the time if that's a question and it's something the council would like to be considered to have in there,
now is the time to do it. Now is the time to say yes, we would like that addressed in there. We'll take that note and we can make put the whole point of all this is to slow this down. Okay? We we have a discussion here. We put something together. We put it out to the people. We keep it on the agenda for 6
months. We're rushing this through just to rush it through. To me, it's like a money grab. I mean, the fees, the stuff that's in here. I I just don't agree with it. Period. I don't think it's being fair to the people of this town. I'm not disagreeing that we need to do something, but as far as I'm concerned,
this needs to stop right now. We need to have a committee. We have questions right there now from the people. We can address them and then have meetings about it. That's the way that we should be doing this as far as I'm concerned. and then we're not hiding anything to those people. >> So now is the time that we are
addressing some of these questions and this ordinance can certainly be drafted and changed. It's not under introduction this evening. This is for the discussion for the people. The questions are being asked from the members of the public not >> you're twisting this around
twisting it around. My opinion to that we had the comm John. Are you not in favor of committee now? It's >> this is better than a committee. I don't understand what you could put. >> You're talking about being transparent and open. We are here with I don't know how many people are here. 50 people
here. At least 50 people here. We are in a public TV. You We're still being televised, right? We are in a television. We're being public what we agreed to. >> Andrew, we're not passing an ordinance tonight. If there's If we feel that there's a need for a committee, it it
still could be formed. But you're grandstanding here saying that we're doing this. We're rushing things through. This was proposed in August. In August, Andrew, >> and and it was proposed in August. It wasn't talked about. It came to this thing. It got pushed in with this.
>> If it was not discussed in August, >> Mr. Simon said, "With all due respect, as part of my research, did you or did you not agree to the former ordinance that was introduced by the and approved by the former solicitor, the 16page ordinance that was tabled at the last
meeting?" >> No, I I don't believe that I did. And >> you voted in favor of that ordinance. >> If if I said, >> "Excuse me, I'm not finished. You voted I'm answering that question. >> You voted in favor of that ordinance." >> All right. Maybe I did. At this point, this is coming up and I'm not in favor
of this now. So, I could change my mind based on what I'm reading, what I'm deciding, and the people of this family. >> So, hold on. Wait a minute. Hold on. You changed your mind about an ordinance that you voted on. >> I changed my mind and think this is better than a committee. And not saying that we're not going to form a
committee, but you're you're >> then let's do the committee. >> Let's have >> I'll apologize if I vote. I I'll tell you. There is things that I have voted on at this point in time such as the meetings for the township that to go down to one after it was done. It was it
was a discussion here. It wasn't on the agenda. And at the end of the day, I regret doing it. I I I I don't think that that's good business for this township. And you know, we all do things and make mistakes, but I'm at least willing to own that. Tell the people I made a mistake and I don't agree with it
and I'm doing that now. Then you should also be willing to own that according to your words at the last meeting, transparency was everything. >> This is way more transparent than more transparent. This is way more than a forum that the mayor and council has
afforded the public this evening. >> All right, that's your opinion. I'm entitled to mine >> and I and and I suggest we move on. >> Let me just say there hasn't been transparency for me. >> All right, we're going to move on now. Next question. >> And this is this is the way. >> We're going to move on. All right, let's
go. >> How quickly will inspections occur? >> Based on the time that the application's put in, um, if I'm out on inspections or not in the office, you will receive a call within 24 to 48 hours scheduling your inspection. Okay. >> Why are older structures not
grandfathered in? >> Older structures are not grandfathered in? Because they need most of the repairs that are needed to bring it up to code today. Um, things like that I've seen is, let's call it a service wire outside. A lot of houses I I've noticed are frayed wires. That's a serious
serious issue. Houses can catch on fire from that wire being exposed. Just some of the things that I saw in some of the older homes. Now, is there workability with the older homes? Absolutely. There's things that are taken in consideration with them. The structures, you know, the brick work, things like
that. So, there is things that are needed that you can't do in some of the older homes to bring it completely up to today's standards. So there is things that you you have to work with. >> And if I may just I think it's important for everyone to understand and I don't think this was
stated with clarity at the last meeting. Maple Shade unfortunately is behind the curve on this ordinance specifically. I would estimate that anywhere from 85 to 90% of all communities or municipalities within the state have some form of the
CO ordinance that you have in front of you. Quite frankly, most of them I think are more intrusive than what you see this evening. I I tend to agree with that. The majority of the residents, the prior ordinance was overstepping and
provided not certainty. This ordinance is concise. It is clear. And I commend Mr. Wagner for just this summary that he provided, which provides invaluable information as far as what this inspection is and what it's not. Um,
this resident, this ordinance without question is a public safety and health ordinance. Not only does it protect you, but it also protects you from your neighbor's home that did not do improvements according to code where the house is a safety issue.
That's very important to understand. This is not a money grab. It is a basic life and safety ordinance to ensure not only buyers and sellers are protectives protected, but also the residents in that community in which those homes are
sold. >> Okay. >> Good. >> Neighboring towns have sample one to two page CO checklists. How come we don't do that? If this ordinance is proposed, I have a proposed checklist already in and set and ready to go.
>> I'm assuming that that would be we could include it with when if the council decides to introduce this at the next meeting. >> Absolutely. >> And that would be a standard form as part of the other forums in the construction department. >> Mortgage companies do not give funds to buyers without a valid CO. How do you
plan to have buyers complete the inspections when they can't get the loan? Not sure I understand that question either. >> Mortgage companies do not give funds to buyers without a valid CO. How do you plan to have buyers complete the inspections when they can't get the loan?
>> I don't think one has to do with the other. >> So I don't think Yeah, I don't think one has to I mean in my experience the the loan would is basically the CO comes after the loan documents are in there or or they >> I may be wrong. I said in my experience
so >> I had to have >> the question is asked. So we will find out that >> generally speaking as a condition of closing in order for the lender to fund a particular transaction the title clerk must have the co >> before title comes.
>> Yes. And that also is typically a requirement of the insurance company that ensures them. >> But then wouldn't there have to be an affidavit from the township that says we don't need a co in this township? I I believe that's what happened when I had a mortgage in place all those years ago
that I had to sign an affidavit that a co wasn't necessary in this town. >> That's yet another issue that >> buyers and sellers deal with that if a town does not have a a co that could very well delay a transaction. >> Oh, and it did. And it did. Okay.
>> So, Susan, c can you repeat that question, please? >> Mortgage companies do not give funds to buyers without a valid CO. How do you plan to have buyers complete the inspections when they can't get the loan? >> So, if a house doesn't have a CO as of
right now and you're trying to sell your house, >> like how many people I don't have a CO I don't know if I have a CO in my house. >> You have a CO from when you build it and it was inspected and it was >> the CO is good for the duration that you own the home >> until you transfer it or sell it to
another party. >> Okay. I believe this one was answered before, but CO on transfer of title, does that include a state sale to heirs, husband to wife? >> That's the exception. >> Why did this revised ordinance show up
today? There was no time to digest the details revisions. >> We're giving time to digest this. We're reading this in. We're read this. I want to take it home. I I I think what the the important pro is to understand the process take this home. This is not going to be read,
>> right? And I think the process for an ordinance the process for an ordinance in is that the ordinance gets and solicitor please correct me if I'm wrong, but the process is the ordinance gets drafted. It goes to introduction. Council will introduce it. Typically, that ordinance is only introduced in
title only. Once the document is completely put together and all the terms have been agreed to then the ordinance gets published. After the ordinance is published, we have it has to be published for at least 10 days. It has to be put up on our web page. It needs to be available here in town hall.
Residents need to have the opportunity to come up and check that ordinance. That ordinance then goes that after those 10 days, the ordinance then goes back to council for a hearing and a possible adoption. At that hearing, there's a public hearing and that's where public comment normally happens. If anytime during the 10 days that it's
advertised, if there if there needs to be substantial changes, that ordinance would have to be reintroduced. So, an introduction of an ordinance just by title only. If we don't have it, that's all it is. It's just it's the concept that we are looking to introduce this this evening. We're not looking to
introduce. All we're doing is bringing these comments up to everybody, having everybody give the opportunity to ask their questions. Is that the best way to >> just to clarify Susan? So would this be considered an introduction or is this >> No, this is this is not a first reading.
This is not an introduction. This is a town hall forum style where everybody can see take home the ordinance. This is what's been drafted currently. Look at it when the hearing is scheduled which will not be now until we're we're October so until November if it gets
introduced at at the next meeting. >> Introduction then and it's a first reading and second reading. >> First reading is the first reading is the introduction. Second reading is the hearing and the and possible adoption. >> There's still runway. >> There's a lot of runway. >> Everybody gets to die. >> Correct. >> Thank you. >> Yes. This is why I feel this is better
than a committee because you're all here. You're all technically part of our committee. >> You're going to We're not going to introduce this ordinance tonight. >> We I don't think we we're definitely not introducing this tonight. The point we're going to introduce >> We haven't discussed it to introduce it was to discuss the ordinance discussion.
It may be introduced in October and then it can't be voted on until November. This is >> there's already been two items that we have to add to it. >> This is why we're doing this tonight. We're having a town hall meeting which is my in my opinion better than a
committee. This is 10 times better than a committee because a committee is four or five. There's 50 people out here. We're taking your questions or >> comments. Yes, >> comments. Yes. >> Next one is how many vacant homes are in Maple Shade versus total homes? I I
don't have that number, but we can get I'm sure we can get that number. I can get that from uh Mike. >> Yes. >> How many vacant homes >> vacant homes in Maple Shade versus our total homes? >> Where's the pre-insspection checklist? I believe we discussed that and said that it would be included with the final
draft ordinance. This is government overreach which restricts restricts the sellers and buyers through negotiating. What is your response? >> I agree. >> I wholeheartedly disagree. I think it encourages
arms lengths transactions. Again, this ordinance without a doubt protects both buyers and sellers. >> It's a fiduciary. >> Anybody else on council? No. >> How does this do anything but put burden on the older and most vulnerable
citizens of our town? >> I don't think it puts a burden on anybody. I mean, older, younger, it doesn't really matter. Um, it's a safety inspection. And the inspections there to make sure the house or the dwelling or the commercial property is is safe and and can be habited inhabited by the
person properly. I mean, it's not an older a younger I mean, there's a burden on a young couple. There's a burden on an older couple. You know, it's it's just there for safety and and fire and electrical and all that kind of inspection. It's not there for if you're
older or younger, it's for everybody. Will this meeting result in a vote tonight on this and should it start again as a first reading? I think we've addressed that that no, this meeting tonight does not result in a vote on it that it still needs to go for introduction uh should council choose at
our next meeting uh in October. Would you need a new certificate for every new tenant you rent to? If so, what about short-term rentals Airbnbs? >> This is not that. This is different. >> It's still a question. Let's >> Yeah. Go. Short-term rentals don't apply
to this this code. Rentals have their own ordinance. The rental registration ordinance. In the ordinance, it requires, and I'm just going to sum it up basically in in layman's terms, when you pay your rental registration, you're entitled to change your occupancy and you get an inspection if you notify the
township today. This is the way that that that code is today. We are also doing these inspections on the rental properties. this type of inspection based on the codes for the New New Jersey State Housing Code and the International Property Maintenance Code. So, rental properties, they do not have
to conform to the CEO unless the property is being sold. If it is being rered by another tenant, they're required to contact the township, have the rental inspection done prior to the change of occupancy, and then they can have the occupant move in upon passing
that inspection. Our town currently has a lead pipe problem. We have been told the township is working on this problem. Since safe water is a requirement of this new ordinance, how will that impact those of us with this problem if we want to sell
our house? This the lead pipes are not included. This has nothing to do with lead. >> That has nothing to do with me. That's an engineering problem. It's in the streets. I believe that's where it's at. Correct. >> And for clarity, that section in the prior ordinance was excised >> was taken out. Yes.
Why is the township trying to eliminate private property? Not sure I understand that one, but if I'll put it >> I don't understand that question. >> Yeah, I'll put it aside for now and if it comes up. So these look to be some notes. Seems intrusive. Restraint of trade government
controlled of private property appears to complicate asis sales. Not clear when inspector may grant extension. One, why is there a time limit? What if it's not granted? And two, how many inspectors are required for enforcement? What will their salaries be? Where do they come
from? Private companies do this work. Government is taking their jobs. So, I think the first question is um appears to complicate asis sales. Not clear when and why the time limit on asis sales. Well, as I explained before, the time
limit is there only as if somebody's not doing what they're supposed to do. The time limit's there basically on asis sales. So that you the people who are sitting on the properties and in my experience, this has happened numerous times where you if you don't have a time frame and a code to enforce it, then
you're going to sit there and look at a vacant property that live that might be right next to you that nobody's doing anything with. They purchased it, they sit on it, they do nothing. the time frames there to make sure that you have the teeth to go after them in the court of law. >> How many inspectors are required for enforcement?
>> That would be based on how many cos we have coming in and and you know the workload. Um right now it's just me and let me make this clear. I am the community development director. I am the zoning officer. I am the land use administrator. This is not my job. I brought this in out of the goodness of
my heart. That's cuz I saw the town and I saw what it needs and it needs these inspections to be safe. >> I think too for right now like we currently do the um through the fire marshall's office which we have the one fire marshal and then there is a part-time that helps him
>> we do we do a smoke detector inspection and carbon monoxide in detector inspection. That is all. >> This document is very vague. Will the terms be >> provided? Oh, will it be provide will
there be more will the terms be provided more detailed requirements specifically regarding to 155-65-6 I believe the 155-6 are the uh standards and the the definitions so this document is very vague will the
terms be pres pro provided more detailed requirements specifically regarding 155-6. The >> code the code. >> Yeah, they're just definitions in reference to the code. Um the code is is the New Jersey State Housing Code and also the International Property Maintenance Code, which if you'd like to to view it, they are viewable online.
You can just look them up, Google them, and then you can look at every requirement that's in those codes. >> And we can find definitions in those codes. >> Yeah, there's definitions in every in both of those books. There's a go right through it. With the transition of this new process,
I expect more people to fail than pass the process. Will the township react swiftly, meaning within a week to reinspect? >> We move as quickly as the repairs are done. I mean, if you if you have an inspection on a Tuesday, you get the repairs done over the weekend. I mean, we could be back that next week. You
know, second inspections are are pushed up even faster because we know that settlements at at hand. >> Who decides that the House is a fixer upper? What situations have occurred to spur this decision now? And what is continued occupancy? So, the first
question is who decides that the house is a fixeruppper? >> That's based on the buyer and the seller. I mean, if they determine that, you know, it's it's there's too many repairs in there for them to do and it's a rehab process, then that would be a fixer upper repair. If I have done ones where I've gone for CO inspections and
went to the house and determined and said, "You really have a lot of repairs to do. This is really, really in bad life safety shape. you may want to go under the route of the transfer of title to purchase the property if that's what you want to do. So we we do talk to the people and we do let them know.
>> Kyle, could you give an example of what would be some dangerous life safety issues in your experiences observed during these inspections? >> Certainly. Um handrails. Um I did a house the other day where we were out there looking at trees and um I am the
licensed DCA inspector. Let me add that for for the township. The township just recently took over all the multiple dwellings in the town. I am now the the under the state of New Jerseyy's regulations, the DCA inspector. So, we were out there on the property. The property is a three three-unit complex. That's why I'm telling you that it's
under the state's jurisdiction. Um went to the property. It's three stories. On the side of the property, there is stairwell that goes up to the second floor, goes up to the third floor. There is no handrail guard rails on any of the steps. We're talking almost 25 ft high.
No guardrails, no handrails. That's a serious issue. Also looked at the service line which feeds 2 meters, two or three meters. Service lines frayed un ungodly. It's on woodclad siding. That is a life safety issue. You go into a house and there's no working smoke
detectors. That's a life safety issue. Go into a house and there's a sink with an outlet behind it and there's no GFI, it's not ground folded, that's a life safety issue. You go into the basement and there is electrical panel and it's got water condensating in it dripping from the outside wiring. That is a life
safety issue. Open junction boxes, open wiring, knob and tube that's not done correctly. They're life safety issues. >> Thank you. >> I believe it answers the question of what situations have occurred to spur the decision. Now, those were places that you've already seen in the last week. >> That's correct.
>> Yep. What is a continued occupancy? >> Continued occupancy is just basically what it says. Um the house already has a CO from the build. Um you cannot ask for a CO. You have to ask for a continued certificate of occupancy. That's what a contin continued certificate of
occupancy is. How can a vote at a public meeting for a committee formation be changed? I'll pose that to you, Mr. Solicitor. >> Because it was done with the will of the council and the mayor. That's okay.
>> How can a vote at a public meeting for a committee formation be changed? >> Because the mayor and council already determined well over a week ago that this is the forum that will be provided. Yes, it is.
>> And I think what it is is that and it's almost to what um Mr. Zeradnik had said that it doesn't mean that there won't be a committee. It's that this evening this is what the was decided to do to start this process to have everybody's voice. If the buyer falls through, can they use
the same inspection certificate for the next buyer? As currently worded, if it needs a new one, more money would need to be paid. So the question is, if the buyer falls through, can they use the same inspection certificate for the next buy? >> Yes, they can. They just have to do a letter stating that the sale fell through. They have to redo the
paperwork. There's no fee. Um, if it is a time frame, say it's after 30 days, the inspector may just want to walk through to make sure the water's on, the electrical is working, things like that just to make sure that that's good. But no, they they never add to the list. They just have to do that for their their well-being.
I said that I would read everyone, so I'm going to read it anyway. Uh, new council members resisted township taking control of the fire department now supporting township controlling all property sales. Does council have any response to that? >> No.
Where is the checklist? Township will be on the hook for people looking to sue for missed items just like Sandy wanted to sue. Who asked for this? We already had a township inspection with home sales. Home numbers, fire extinguisher, smokes detector. People can get their
own inspector. I have purchased three homes in town and paid for inspection each time. So, the first is where is the checklist that we were told we said that will be included. Township will be on the hook for people looking to sue for missed items. >> Uh, if anything, I would agree that this
further protects the town from liability. >> Who asked for this? I think that was Kyle. you had discussed and said that you had shared that >> yes I brought this in >> um and people can get their own inspector I've purchased three homes in town paid for inspections each time and
that again that inspection is different than what this inspection would be correct >> 100% that is a much thorough inspection by a professional or a licensed home inspector again this is a basic life and
safety inspection known visible hazards um there is no intrusive inspection going into walls or anything like that. It's just what is visible to the inspector when they walk through the house. That's it. >> Also, I just had somebody ask on could you just pull the microphone just a
little closer just so there we go. Thank you. >> So, you're saying this is a safety in a safety issue yet I know the home inspections are thorough by licensed people. So, if the if the realators are getting them inspections, why are we
subjecting them to another inspection? You're It seems to me like you're duplicating it. >> So, Mr. Samson, there's a reason why roughly 90% of the municipalities already have this ordinance. >> It's for the simple. You're not going to interrupt me.
>> I I don't care what other municipalities are doing about this. >> You should because it's part of the law. >> No, it's not part of the law for you to worry about the other towns. What I can tell you is that not every buyer has the financial wherewithal or quite frankly
the to know better to actually have inspection. Not every transaction includes a home inspection. New Jersey law does not require, >> excuse me, I'm not finished. Go ahead. New Jersey law does not require in connection with a real estate transaction or a commercial transaction
for that matter that a an inspection by a lo licensed home inspector take place as a condition of closing. >> Can can any real estate people >> realtor always has to tell them about a home inspection and we guarantee >> Well, you can tell them but it doesn't mean they have to do it.
>> Have to sign a paper to >> Well, I you you tell them, but it doesn't mean they have to do it. That's all he's saying. >> Exactly. >> Well, exactly. That's their choice. >> It's their choice. Exactly. That's what exactly what he said. >> It's important that they should have it. They can make those decisions. >> Why is it the government's responsibility to do that?
>> So, >> yeah, >> that's personal accountability. >> Ironically, the next question is, is this a state mandate? >> No. >> No, >> it is not. >> It's not. >> Duh. >> The only state requirement is with
respect to the carbon monoxide detectors and the smoke detector. That's it. Why did only three council men go out of the room? Was this a meeting? I guess that was at our >> I guess I had to go to the bathroom and then I went back out for my pencil. So,
yep. >> For asis, if people can't live in it, where are new homeowners going to live? And how do they save for repairs if they need to pay rent somewhere? I would never buy a home I couldn't move into. Why can't buyers sign an ASIS waiver and
fix up homes how they see fit? If someone chooses the cheapest fixes, what type of people are moving in? So, the question is for AS is if people can't live in it, where are new homeowners going to live and how do they save for repairs if they need to pay rent somewhere
if it's not inhabitable? >> Yeah, I think we already addressed that. >> I think we did address that, right? Uh, I would never. Why can't a buyer sign an ASIS waiver and fix up homes how they see fit? >> They can. >> They can.
>> They can. As long as there's no life safety items >> or issues. >> If if we were following up on the construction and doing due diligence with people doing what without permits, I think a lot of this would be avoided. I think that we we don't have an
enforcement code for people. You know, I I I don't see them going around putting stop work orders on people doing jobs in town. And it seems to me that if we had that that maybe these things wouldn't be an issue for houses being sold because we would be able to control that a
little bit more with with inspections and people getting permits to do work. >> With you, Andrew, I was putting a sun porch on the back of my house. Not only did they bring a stop order, they brought the police to make sure that they that they closed the job down.
>> Well, rightfully so. >> And I do disagree with that comment because we have put plenty of stop orders in the last eight months. >> I didn't say that you didn't. I was saying that that if we do that enforcement, maybe that will help prevent the the the issue of having inspections for the the houses. The
houses will be brought up through code through that making sure the inspections are done. This township has a record of it in inspection department because I know and there's realtors out here. Correct me if I'm wrong. Most realtors will call the townships to see the inspection schedules for the panels for
the electric for all the things that they're talking about. Is there is that a false statement by realtors? Am I speaking out of turn? >> True. >> No, it's true. >> Mr. Simon said, "One thing that you do not take into account is not every
homeowner, unfortunately, pulls a permit for work to be done." >> I'm well aware of that. That's what I'm trying to say. And if the township people are doing their job driving around, they can see it. Or if neighbors turn them in, we can stop the order. We can see the work. >> The code enforcement officer is property maintenance, is not interior
maintenance. Our UCCc department, our construction official, does not drive around looking for things. He he will see things. when he sees things, obviously he stops. But code enforcement is outside property maintenance. >> I I'm not disagreeing with that. But what I'm saying is I ride around town
all the time. When I do jobs in this town, I had to get permits to do aprons, to do sidewalks, to do all that, get engineer reports. My company, and I drive around this town and see people ripping out concrete, putting in aprons, doing it all the wrong way, and it just
gets done and it's moved on. And you can't sit there and tell me that don't happen and everybody can see that that that's getting ripped out and getting done. Maybe we should have a program for them to drive around and look for those kind of things and go to those people and say you didn't get permits and start
there. There's other ways to go about doing it. >> That's exactly what this ordinance will curb exactly what you just said. >> It will not curb it. >> Exactly what you just said. >> No, it's not. That's your opinion of it. I'm talking about things that are happening now. not things that are going
to happen opinion, not >> all right. Well, that's your opinion and it's not one that I see fit with, so I don't really care. >> All right, next one. >> You said that you were checking for previous permits. What if an addition was built without a permit? Do things have to be brought up to code? >> Yes, they do. You'll have to get a
permit and you'll have to conform with the UCCC uh regulations. >> If you didn't get a permit, you will be cited for getting a permit for any of those those items. >> Real hardship. Why can't things be done in phases? Perhaps start with just an exterior
inspection and fewer components. >> That's why you're having a committee. Correct. >> That's why we're having the discussion. >> That's why you're having a discussion. >> The altered ordinance still refers to everything in the state code. So wording was slimmed down or
toned down. Is that just an appeasement? >> No. No. it was to to go back to the code and everybody can reference the code. There was too much questioning within the the ordinance that was written and it was too spread out. So to make it alleviate that we referenced the codes
which is black and white like I said you can't change that. >> This question was asked before is this the first reading or second? We've addressed that if this is voted on tonight does this stand as is? Again this is not a vote this evening. It's just discuss the ordinance and the contents there. So just to clarify a
statement and I don't know if this is correct with all things but the state has guidelines, it has ordinances, it has all those things in place. We can't change them and take away from them, but we can add to them if we want. So that's that's the slippery slope in my mind.
You can add to whatever you want to do to it, but you can't take it away. So his statement to a point is correct, but there's there's a fine line with that, and I think everybody needs to know that it can be added to, but it can't be changed. It can't be diminished.
>> Are they hiring extra inspectors? We've addressed that. If we need to, we will look to hire who we need to hire. >> What is the revenue going forward? That's undetermined at this point. >> It's undetermined based on the amount of certificate of occupancies that come in,
commercial, you know, residential. >> This is a state requirement. Are we not compliant? Why is this coming up now? Again, I think we've answered that a couple times. Who settles the dispute if the homeowner and inspector don't agree on a time frame to make needed repairs to a fixer upper?
>> I I've never had any disputes on time frames. I mean, at 25 years, I think I've never held up one settlement. Everything's been workable and and with a with an within an agreement of a temporary CO or or whatever, just making sure life safety things are done. And I think too like once they're in the
permitting phase through the UCCC site, there's as long as they're showing that there's some work, isn't it? A it's six months at a time that they can get the extension. So they have to show some sort of improvement and then they get six months. That would have nothing to do with the CO portion of it. >> That's correct.
>> This is exception for family estate transfer of title which we did address. Yes. Why is the charge so high? I guess why are the the fees so high? That's something that if council would like to look at, we could certainly look at, but that's the question. So, I guess how did
you come up with how did we >> So, the fees were a generalization by looking at the towns within the area that require this occupancy inspection. Um, the fees are just there as a general guideline. If they would like to adjust them, I don't really care what the fee is.
Um one, this is should be 155-1. Are residential res rentals included? And we had discussed that that we do have the rental registration already in place that do have their uh their inspections done. >> That's correct.
>> Okay. Why are we here? Who called this meeting after a roll call vote to table and go to committee? I think >> we addressed that. >> We addressed that. >> Who does the inspection? If it is the part-time code enforcement officer who is already overwhelmed, how do you
expect to stay on top of compliance? That was addressed as well that you'll be handling the inspections going forward for the CCOs's and the certificate of inspections and our code enforcement officer will continue to do the property maintenance ones >> which is which is fulltime.
We voted for You voted for a committee. Why are we here? Why have a CO when everybody does home inspections? >> I think we answered that as well. Not everybody does a home inspection. Sometimes they wave the home inspection because they can't afford it. >> I call
May I call a point of order about his yelling without respect to anyone? >> What is considered any improved property? What is supposed to improve? How does this benefit the homeowner? What is considered any improved
property? So, it must be in one of the it be as opposed to a vacant property. Obviously a vacant property this does not apply to >> it be a property with a dwelling or structure. >> So what is this supposed to improve and how does this benefit the homeowner? I
think we've discussed that too as far as how does the program benefit the homeowner? Uh, you should appoint a sergeant- of- arms to keep one meeting, one communication, conversation. Maybe
that's what that is. Is this just a way to nickel and dime us? No. >> I'll pose that to council. >> No. No. I mean, it's minimal fees.
How did we survive without this? >> No, how did we survive without this? I'm assuming all this didn't. I guess >> well some say some people didn't and you know it's you're taking a chance. You know, if you have a sale and you sell it as is and and you move into the property
and you have no inspections, you're taking a chance with your life. >> Yeah. I was going to say, show me. First of all, if somebody's buying a house, that's a big purchase and that's a risk involved in it and it's their responsible to maintain the house within
reason. So, I I I don't you know, that's a fair question. We have survived without it. I think this is just overreach at at best with everything going on here. What is the shelf life of a CO from inspection to issue to closing? 30 days,
60 days, 90 days? Will the fire company be combined with continuing CO inspection or is fire added fee an inspection? >> Uh the life of the CO is from the date of inspection. It's good for 90 days with 30 days in writing. I hope that
answers your question. Um is the fire inspection going to be also performed with this? Yes, it will >> for no extra charge. >> There's no extra charge for the fire inspection. What do we charge for the fire inspection now?
>> That those would be the fire marshall inspection. Yes, >> I'm un I'm off hand. I don't know what the cost is. I don't know what the cost is. >> We can we will get that answer though and we will answer that. >> Why now? And what other towns do this?
>> So why now? We've answered. Um what other towns? I think that was explained too at the other one. I mean I know of the surrounding towns. I have them in front of me. Mount Laurel, Delano, Cherry Hill, Riverside, Pensalkulen, Ottabon, Haden Township, Renee, Maple, Maple Shades Out, Palmyra were the ones that I was able to find their things
online, their checklists, their uh codes and whatnot. >> So, so I have a question. You're combining this. You're saying you're going to do that inspection? >> No. >> For the fire? >> No, it's within addition with this inspection. >> Okay. So, then we're losing the revenue
off of that side. So, >> if No, we're not. No, that's not >> He just said there was no charge. The I'm talking about the fire. The >> C the fire is still in place and there still is a charge. I said I don't know the fee for that charge. I don't I don't know what you pay for that. >> What was your statement about not being
charged for it? >> No, I asked if it was included. I think that's something we should consider. One lump charge for a CCO inspection as opposed to separate for fire and a CCO. Well, I think fire needs to stay separated because that's a whole other
entity and that's responsible to that office and that that operations. We would need to separate it needs to stay separated the fire marshall's fees from >> from this thing. >> Just regained those fees from the state when we changed. >> We did. >> So, we should leave them in place.
>> Yeah. And that's something I have the I've pulled the ones that we've had some questions on. So, I have those out so obviously we can follow up and we will follow up with those. Um, that does end. There's no questions. Everybody can see I went through everything. >> And Susan, I think one amendment to the ordinance would be that we specifically
recite what is the fire fee. >> What's that >> in the in the ordinance here? >> That's through the fire side. And I believe that some of those are set by the state and that's been running smooth for the last 25 years. We don't the the
realers call, they get that information and that changes from town to town. I don't think we need to be mixing that with this and confusing people. >> I agree, Andrew, but it has not been running smooth. >> That's why this >> we had an inspector that wasn't doing his job and it cost us a lot.
>> That's got nothing to do with the house sales, Chuck. That's a whole another entity. >> You're talking about the inspections from the fire department. >> Correct. >> It's different. It's different. It's a different >> fire official had nothing to do with the fire department, Chuck. the fire official was its own entity.
>> It I I know this frontwards and backwards. You're making a statement that's not correct. >> Okay. So, all the questions are done. >> All of the questions that were placed in the basket are um done. Yes. And the ones that we had I have a bunch. We will get those answers and we will put them out as well. >> Thank you. Kyle, do you have anything to
add based on the questions? >> No, I don't think so. >> No. No. Thank you. >> Council, anybody have anything to add based on the questions before we open up the public? Okay. Okay. At this time, um, we're going to open it up to the
public portion. As we begin, let's keep the conversation respectful and constructive. Please allow speakers to finish and avoid talking from the audience. >> Five minutes. >> We're going to give everybody five minutes to speak to try to get it to go. Not a three-hour meeting. >> Apologies that I jumped up in front of
everybody. >> I'm sorry. Please state your name and address for the record. >> 19 South Boulevard. >> Thank you. >> Maple Shade, New Jersey. Maple Heights. You know where that is? What's your zip code? You know where a Barlo bungalow is? >> Yep. >> Kyle, >> no. >> Okay, we'll we'll educate you at some
point. All right. Uh, first of all, I do want to address the ordinance and other things that came up tonight, >> but the first thing I have to address is the solicitor investigated an elected official. That's what he said. >> He went back and investigated who he what he voted for.
>> No, I said it's part of my due diligence. >> I'm not looking for your comments. I'm just saying that's that's terrible. This is your guy. Anyway, play the tape. It says what you said. Um, this is a violation of the Open Public Meetings Act. Even your solicitor was under the
impression you guys agreed to do this at a meeting. You didn't? I've spent, if in case anyone doesn't know, I spent 16 years up there. Claire's out here. She spent more than that. It was pounded into our head about the Open Public Meetings Act. Chuck Sandy, I served with
both. This is a violation of the Open Public Meetings Act. You cannot pull council and do substantive decisions for the township. My opinion, you can talk to the solicitor, but sooner or later someone's going to tag you on it with the state. Um
I uh give me a second. I get Heather can read these better than I can. >> Want me to read them for you? >> Uh I did ask for this in advance. I was told no. Okay, fair enough. But this is
very little change from the last. There is change. It's appreciated. Uh but it's not a lot of changes. All he did was take verbiage out >> and and incorporate by reference the same verbiage. But now we have to go find the verbiage. So he didn't change anything. If you don't
mind me calling you he just incorporated the same verbiage by reference. This is the ordinance that was introduced and had a public meeting on at your table. mostly. Okay. This ordinance your solicitor said was overreach. Your own
solicitor. Um I I do have you don't have to answer these. I couldn't um write fast enough to ask questions, but one question that was asked and I think I understood what the person was saying and I had a
question. If a buyer gets the CO, right? CI a seller, I'm sorry. The seller I'm going to sell my house. I get the CI. It's in my name, right? The buyer comes in, ownership changes. Can I give that
buyer my CI that I just got that's that's uh still effective. >> How long are we talking? >> Within a month. I mean, it don't matter. I within whatever time reasonable time frame. So, I get this I get the CI. I'm selling within two weeks
>> I I get a buyer. buys or shape. Can I give that buyer the CIO that I got? >> So the the CCO that we're talking about is good for the life of you living there.
>> Okay, perfect. Stop there a second. So I get this. So >> that that's what that question was about. So, a buyer coming in is going to buy this property not knowing whether
they're going to get a CCO. Yes. >> No, that you just explained that you're calling it a CI. I'm saying it's a CCO. >> All right. Now, and I just called >> the C the CCO, >> right, >> that you obtained when you purchased the property. Okay. That's what you're asking me.
>> No, I I'm the seller. >> Okay. >> Okay. I got a buyer. >> Okay. >> Who gets the CCO? >> The seller. >> Okay. I get the CCO as a seller. >> Correct. >> And then I can transfer it to the buyer.
>> No. >> No. No. It's upon sign. >> It's a contract from >> Go ahead. Say good. >> You're getting the CO for the sale from you. Okay. >> To to whoever. >> Yes. >> That is the CO. So when Mary buys the
property from you, that CO is good for the life of Mary living at that property with her family or whoever. >> Oh, so I'm that's what I'm saying. I can give it to Mary. >> You're getting it for you. The transactions from you to Mary, right? >> That is the co you're selling the property to the buyer.
>> Yes. >> That's why you're getting >> I'm getting the CO in my name >> upon you selling the house >> prior to me. >> Not prior prior to settlement. When you're good, yes, >> I'm a buyer. You just you agreed on a price, negotiated price, part of that
buyer's part, part of that process. >> And then I get the CCO. >> Then you get Okay. You don't get the CCO, put your house up for sale, and then So, I get the CCO during sometime during the process. It'll come up with settlement. All right. And you'll be quick with that, I assume. >> Um,
>> you said you you can't change the state code, >> right? But right you said >> I'm just I'm just laying a foundation here. >> I said you can't change a state code. >> It's the state code that's referenced in the or we >> correct. These are the codes. Yes. >> Right. But you don't have to include
them in there, right? >> Yeah. >> Yes. That's what we we adopted these codes to be enforceable through our ordinances. This is the codes you you have. You enforce property maintenance on these codes. You enforce certificate of occupancies on these codes. You some of it you enforce zoning on these codes.
Do you have to include the codes in this ordinance? >> Yes, you do. >> It's by law. >> By law. >> Okay. Uh dampness. You mentioned dampness and I this is the question I had before. And so now that you reviewed the u the
relevant state, >> this is comments >> um authority. How do you measure dampness? Because that damp chronic dampness is in those state u mandates, right? So, it's part of this code. So, assuming that's correct without you
answering me, how do you measure dampness? Who how would you measure dampness? >> I don't know that I don't think dampness is in these codes to be honest with you. It just says that the basement or the structure shall be uh leak free, waterfree, >> chronic dampness, free. >> It does not say chronic dampness in these codes.
>> Okay, fair enough. So, it's not part of this ordinance. >> No. >> Okay. Thank you. Because it was in the last one. No, you're looking for foundation issues, things that of that nature that cause I know I I heard the last and I did watch the last meeting and I I'm sorry I couldn't be here to
answer some of your questions when I'm here now. I I heard that some people reference that they had French drains and hey, there's a lot of wood at the water table's pretty high here in Maple Shade. Hey, guess what? When the inspector goes through and he sees that and he notes it, he or she notes it,
they're going to note that there was water issues in the basement, but they're not going to fail the property because they tried to remediate it with a French drain system. That's a permit process. >> So, you'll pass something. >> So, that will be passed. It'll just be noted down that there was water at the time there's water present at the time
of inspection. That's all that they would noted, but there had already been remediated facts that have been put in place to remediate that >> somewhere. I appreciate you would attack it that way or is that written somewhere? Is that >> Well, it's in the training when you're an inspector. Yeah. When you go through your licensing and your training, that's
part of your licensing and training is how to work with people with doing certain things to notice certain things. >> I'm not a lawyer. I've worked around lawyers for 40 years. So, I get hung up on the verbage. >> Okay. But fair enough. >> So, a question to you. Is that is that
subject to an inspector's opinion? because I know that for a fact in the building side of the world, everyone's got a different opinion. And in the code book, it says that they can interpret the law the way they see it. So that that's what I'm saying. All these things
can be put down to a point, but then later on if you're not here and someone else comes in, then we have a can of worms. >> So this is all interpretation at the end of the day. >> The subjective stuff should give everybody concern and that's a subjective.
>> Correct. Every house is different. I mean, I've gone in houses and you ask >> Every inspector is different. >> I'm not I'm not disagreeing with you there. Every inspector is different. >> Gives people a lot of anxiety if unless the verbiage is very clear. >> Well, let me answer that question with
verbiage being very clear. Every house, every structure is different. I've gone in homes where everything on that list is there. Okay? Everything on a sample list is there. But I have gone into homes where a joist is cracked. Joyce is not going to be on that. There's no
nothing on there. You find termite damage or you find something else. >> Fail. >> You would fail for >> for a cracked joist in the basement. Absolutely. >> In the basement. >> Absolutely. >> Visible. You're not going behind walls. >> No, I'm not going behind walls. I'm >> looking for knob and tube behind visual.
>> We We are visible visual inspection. We don't take things apart or go into things. No. >> And I had one question and I don't know if it's still in here because I don't have the the uh >> references with me. It said something about 7 foot ceilings. Habitable rooms
have to be 7 foot. >> That's correct. That's the code. >> That's a part of this. >> Yes. >> Wait a minute. Let me finish Andrew. >> Okay. >> If you don't mind because this is concerning because if you go to Chuck will show you where uh they call it Maple Heights, I guess. Um where the bar
the bungalows are. All those dormers aren't 7 foot rooms up there. So, if I have a five four bedroomedroom house, two of the bedrooms are less than 7 ft. Okay. Uh, two aren't two are habitable
rooms. >> How do you What do you do with that as an inspector? So, you're talking about the bungalows. >> Any house? >> I'm not talking about the bungalow. >> Okay. I had a bungalow that I sold. It was three bedrooms on the first floor. You had the second floor. My my daughter
lived up there. It was not 7 foot ceiling clearance through 75% of the building up of of the upstairs. It also didn't have the egress windows. It also didn't meet those requirements for a bedroom. It also went down the steps into the kitchen. You can't enter through a kitchen to get to an exit.
That's not a bedroom. So, it depends on the layout of the house and what what constitutes the 7 foot clearance and where it's at. If it's in a regular bedroom, I I have never seen a bedroom that's less than 7 ft high in >> You're welcome to come to my house. And on the first floor, not a bungalow.
>> Not the first floor. >> I'm talking the first floor. >> All right. So, as long as I have one or two rooms that are seven foot, >> I get the COO. >> You'll get the based on those bedrooms. Yeah. It'll be indicated what does not have like you were talking the bungalow. Let's go back to your reference of the
bungalow. It'll state on that certificate of occupancy that this is a three-bedroom house and the second floor is not a bedroom. >> Okay. But I'll get the COA. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, just to be clear, if they're pulling permits and having inspections
that the the house is done, it's got its co. So, I I think for the the people of the town, the UCCC code is whatever it was whenever you were built, if it meets that code, if the inspectors approve it, you build it and you get inspected. The
township can't come in and tell you that you have to raise your ceiling a foot. >> That house meant code when it was being built. I don't know what the verbiage is or what his thought is, but the UCCC is for when buildings are being built in today's world following today's code.
After that building is done and it gets a CO, it is grandfathered in forever until you sell it or whatever you want to do. They want to sell it and have it reinspected, but you can't reinvent the wheel. That's not true. I won't deduct the UCCC code and the
fire that the state can override that on the fire code for commercial properties. >> Be quick. >> Okay. >> Can I address that real quick? >> Yeah, please. >> When those houses we're talking about a bungalow were built, that second floor was an attic space. When that was when
that was a UCCC inspection, just so just to clarify that those inspections are conducted based on these terms as well. If those houses had permits and pulled and was inspected, then it doesn't matter. It's it was it was inspected, the code is there. If it was granted by
the township to let allow somebody to do it, then it's then it's good. I And today's code is completely different with the egress and all that. I get all those. I know all that frontwards and backwards. So it, you know, I I think the people of this town are seeing this
and they're having a heart attack thinking they're going to have to raise the roof, make a ceiling height. We're making notes of somebody's house when you're going through to do an inspection that are irrelevant at the end of the day as far as I'm concerned. It's over, >> if I may. It does. I already had my
heart attack so I don't know. But it does give people anxiety. >> Yeah. >> There's a lot of angst out there. So, you're telling me and what you told me gives me some uh comfort, but not a lot because like Andrew said, I was thinking I gota raise the roof literally.
I'm going to move on though. But I think you can legislate that out. And if you got to legislate out these two references to the state code, you can legislate them out and put everything else that you want from them in and keep the other stuff out. Take a ride. It's
the, you know, 1907, my property card says. I can't imagine that, but that's what it says. U the exceptions are you you mentioned exceptions. Um >> are they written in the referenced? They're not written in here obviously. Are they referenced in the written
material the two the two sites the state IC whatever it is? >> Some of the exceptions are in there but some of them are not. >> Okay. So I think the exceptions need to be in there and that's where the committee I think would come in. Um I think that's why I still need the committee. You have to have these
exceptions written in because Kyle, >> I have a bad day. He may be out sick, someone else. I don't know. We don't know who's going to be running his uh his position. Uh I saw something in there about trans trash cans not visible from the street. Is that in the reference material? The um it's no
longer in this. I didn't see shaking his head again. I I peruse it quickly. It said trash cans can't be visible from the street. Is that part of the state? Is that was that taken out of a township code? >> No, that was taken out of a township code.
>> Okay. So, that's not in anywhere. >> It's It's No, >> I only ask because if you if you come back to the my end of town, you'll see the driveways are very long and you can't notice a trash can, but if you can see >> No, I think that's more along the lines of you can't have a trash can in your front yard.
>> Okay. I can't read this. >> Yeah. Address that. >> John's kicking you out. John, John, I I captured time from uh >> from Andrew. >> All right. Thank you very much. >> Thanks. >> I do.
>> Good evening. Please state your name and address for the record. >> Yes, ma'am. Thomas Strangelo, 31 over right here. Make >> up the street. Um, I am not necessarily against the getting a certificate of occupancy. I think it's
a >> I think it's a a great idea in its principle. I'm not sure the timing is what's not upsetting people. We uh we just came out of COVID with a lot of restrictions, government
intrusion. Uh the economy sucks, energy prices went up. Uh so I think again the timing we are in the middle of a governatorial race where I suspect prices are going to out be outrageous again. And here is being introduced,
excuse me, an ordinance that potentially is going to cost all the homeowners who want to sell a house more money. So, I think the timing of this, the other thing is, and I'm saying this tongue and cheek, Ronald Reagan said one of the biggest fallacies in the world, I'm from
the government and I'm here to help. When you see something like this, which we've never had before, it's a little scary. The other thing is that Maple Shade, and I'm not knocking any past councils or such or anyone, but Maple Shade has
never enforced any of their ordinances. We had Joseki here who wouldn't leave the building. If it did, it was only for lunch. Uh when you called him for a problem, nothing got done. You had mentioned that a 25 ft run had no railing and the
outside cable. How is that not addressed by the township? So where things have never been enforced before, all of a sudden now we're coming down with a hammer and saying this is what's going to happen. So again, I think timing is a little bit off. I
watched the house on uh Thomas. It's been flipped, but it was years. It looked like a savannah out there. I was looking for the gazels and and lions. Township never addressed it. Was called in. I called it in when I was on the uh
uh in in code enforcement for the board. Um 555 South Forth Glenning Road, it looks like Sanford and Sons Junkyard. Eight years, eight years nothing's been done. First five I called it in. Still nothing's
been done. So when you come across something like this, which is supposed to be for the safety and betterment, and you look back on the history, nothing's been done. So how do we now all accept it saying it's for our benefit? So I think that's one of the problems
that you're you're facing here. You seem to be very reasonable. You leave the next person in may not be. You say I'm going to use a subjective means reasonleness. But I found in almost 30
years of civil service for communities that next guy in may not be as reasonable as you. >> Well, I guess that's about it. As I said, I'm not quite as elegant as Lou or forceful. Thank you for your time, folks. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> Good evening. Please state your name and address for the record. Uh Renee Nichols, 644 Aquarian Drive, Cherry Hill. >> Okay. >> Um so although I do not live in Maple Shade, um I am a licensed real estate agent for a property management firm. I
have rented and or sold over 425 properties in the last 5 and a half years, including here in Maple Shade. >> Sorry. Um, so I have uh rented and sold over uh 425 properties in uh Burlington, Camden and Cluster County, including
here in Maple Shade. Um, so I have dealt with a lot of different um, inspectors and code enforcement through over townships. Um, so I can guarantee every township has one or another way of getting a CO for a property. Um, some
are in depth and some are light. Uh, at the end of the day, I think they are for the safety of buyers, tenants. Um, and I think it's important to have a consistent code. Um, I think when you set expectations, um, the process is a lot easier. I know
change is hard. I've had to deal with it in some townships. One day I'm doing a CO, three months from now. It's a different process and I have to get used to it. So, I understand that. Um, that being said, I've worked with Kyle for over five and a half years. um through
Mount Laurel and I can tell you he is really easy to work with. He's very fair. Um if you >> nothing um I do business here too, so it's important for me to to know the policy. So um you know, the process is quick. Um
you can give him a call, he'll go out to a property, you know, next day if if you're in a crush for time. So um I just thought it was important. I know a lot of people don't know him. I have over five and a half years experience with them. So, I thought that was of value. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Thanks for sharing. Thank you. >> My name is Lewis Peron. I'm the director of operations at Pwick Apartments. Um I just a little bit concerned on how this is going to work because there's 400 4,69 rental units in Maple Shade. The average turnover of an apartment is 15%. So
that's about 600 inspections to be done a year. And I just Googled how many apartment houses are sold. Anywhere between 4 to 800. So you're looking at probably close to a,000 cos a year. I know you're going to be working really
hard. You're by yourself. I would recommend if you want to go through with this at least hire four more inspectors. you had mentioned that um that you would call us back between 24 and 48 hours, but how long before the actual inspection takes place from that 48
hours? And um can we actually have the inspection? And then um how soon after we get the CO can someone move in? Like is there a processing time or is it like it passes and you give us something right there?
So, to answer your question on the time frame on how long it's going to take to schedule an inspection, it's all based on the workload and how many inspectors I have, you know, going forward. Um, it's hard to give a time frame when I don't know if 20 are coming in at one time or one's coming in at one time. You know, it's it's based on first come,
first serve. Boom, boom, boom. We we we knock them all out. The time frame for the movein process, I'm going to be the inspector. You're getting a verbal. you can move them in and then you'll get the certificate, you know, the next day, the day or two,
whatever it may be when they're sent out. But verbal approvals are are granted as well at you're talking about the apartment. So, you don't need to go to settlement. >> Okay. The settlement process probably the next day they'll get that the certificate. I have not started the process on how we're going to do this.
There is a computer system we can use where it's all digitally. I can probably try to have it where the certificate is issued on the spot and emailed. I'm trying to work those out, but I'm not going to get into that until the ordinance is actually passed because again, I have the other job that I have to do.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Thank you. I think too, Kyle, we had spoken that this isn't something that should council introduce in October and say they, you know, adopt in November. There's going to be a time process. So, we had originally said it might most likely will definitely be a January one
if we could get it done, but we're so we're not looking at something that it passes and or if you know if it should pass it's the next day. Correct. There's things that we need to get put in place here like you said, you know, the programs. >> Yeah, that's correct. >> Hey, hello. Please state your name and address for the record. >> Really?
>> Sorry, I made Lou do it. Renee Wyatt, 57 Thomas Avenue. >> Thank you. Um, I've been listening to everything and digesting and um, some thoughts kind of run into your mind and I think I get the
idea that the intention is to just kind of make the home safe and I get that. Um, I think as a homeowner you just kind of you have concerns about the potential
for like hidden agendas. Uh we see that a lot um especially with government. I'm not saying you guys are shady or shifty or anything like that, but I'm just saying that you start something and then it goes beyond what
your intention is. So unless you have something in writing like a checklist that says we're going to follow this and if you put that in writing and we know that this is what you're following and it's not going to go beyond the
checklist I would feel more comfortable with that and I would appreciate that it includes not just internal but also the external of the property and that would be my concern. All right. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> Anybody else? >> Good evening. Mike Newman, 511 Alexander Avenue. Um, first of all, I'd like to give kudos to Andrew, John, Heather, uh, for slowing us down. Actually, I think
we've all experienced probably many people in this room with the December railroading with passing of prior ordinances where things just got railroaded through. Kudos to you guys for slowing us down and listen everybody. So, thank you. So, >> you're welcome.
>> Um, so, uh, I talked to some of you. I didn't really have a dog in this hunt, quite frankly. I took it upon myself to educate myself, think about it. >> Thank you for doing that. >> What's that? I said, "Thank you for doing that." >> Sure. So, I'm like, "Where's that point?" >> Some people don't.
>> So, um, so some some things that I wrote down as we were talking through this evening, um, one of the things I I listened to you, first of all, thank you, Kyle. Um, one of the things that concerned me about what you said, you said, "I don't know how many inspectors we're going to
need." And Susan, you know, I'm a vegan counter. Um, but then you said if I get a call on a Friday and repairs are going to made be made, then you should have a CO on a Monday or Tuesday. That concerns me. You don't really know what the
volume's going to be, but we also don't know how many inspectors we're going to need. So, again, how many people are we going to need to budget for the inspectors? So, that's that's concerning to me. Um, the question about the old peoples and
them being the most vulnerable, that really that really bothers me. Those people are going to need the access to their money for their personal care. And quite frankly, this is going to be really restrictive to them. I I've recently dealt with it, family members
that needed access to that money for personal care, and we're going to hit them hard. They need access to that money fast and we're going to restrict them at the time they need the money the most. This is pretty personal to me. This is very
restrictive. So I ask that we think hard about that. So um the uh one of the things came up about the uh remediation for dampness. So, I heard
you say if the people have taken steps to remediate for water, but can you require someone to put in French drains? >> No. >> Okay. But what if there's standing water? >> There's standing water. It's going to be noted on the inspection process. Um, if
there's no signs of mold or anything like that within the unit, then as long as they've taken the steps or there's no no immediate danger to the house, then that can be worked with. I mean, I understand that, you know, we have heavy rains, we have, you know, flooding, we have this, that, and the other. I've done inspections the next day where the
basement has 2 in of water in it, you know. >> But what if they stop? >> It didn't stop the the inspection. The inspection just noted it that it was a basement. It's not a habitable space. >> Okay. Some some of the remediation around here is people get down there with shot facts. >> Correct.
>> So, again, you you seem pretty reasonable. >> Not everybody's as reasonable as you. Unless it's in black and white. Again, I'm I'm trying to think past you.
Like, what is going to go in the black and white about what remediation steps need to be? >> I mean, the code's the code. It's up to the inspector to be able to work with the people. I mean, that's >> You just hit the nail on the head. >> Yeah. I mean,
>> so if we get an unreasonable inspector coming in here and if we get five, six, seven inspectors that >> could could somebody make somebody put in a French drain system and we know that >> I can't speak for the people down the line when I leave, but I can tell you
that every inspector will be trained by me to be performing the inspections all the same exact way. >> Okay, that and that could potentially be a problem that I think we need to think about along with this. So, um, couple more quick thoughts. I know I'm running out of time. Um, so, uh, again, one of
the things we need to talk about, Sandy, you talked about your personal experience and at some point I think personal accountability needs to come into play, you know. So, yes, people have a choice whether or not they get home inspections. People have a choice whether or not they have attorneys
present at their closing. I don't know the government's role to come in and protect people when they choose not to have personal accountability. >> Government role at all. I didn't say that. >> I I I understand that, but that's what we're talking about doing in some of these cases.
>> So, if we have all of this done, >> we're talking about the government stepping in and taking over people's personal accountability. >> It's a matter of public safety. >> What's that? >> Safety. It's a matter of safety. >> That that what you're >> But if somebody chooses not to have inspections, >> well, that that's one you're comparing
apples and oranges there. >> Not necessarily. If somebody chooses to come in and not have the appropriate inspections done and they buy a house basically asis, I'm not saying that they put asis clauses in
>> but if someone doesn't have inspections, >> usually a lot of times a house looks perfectly fine >> in a highly competitive market if they just buy the house without doing all that due diligence, >> which a lot of people are doing right now. >> Exactly. Right. >> But why is that the government's role to step in?
That's what you're talking about doing with this if it's written as is. So again, I'm just playing to plant seeds. And the last thing I'll throw out is so there were some good comments here tonight. Talked about a committee previously
again. So yes, it's not a foregone conclusion whether it's going to be a committee or not, but I'll throw it out there. How do we make sure that all the good thoughts that have come up tonight, how do we make sure that those things get fed in to the final ordinance? I don't think it should be going forward
as it is today. I don't think it potentially should go as it's written what Kyle put forward. Probably needs a little bit more teeth than it has today. So whether it's committee or not, I think that you all need to think about how you make sure you get the feedback.
maybe a committee how you get that feedback to get all those good thoughts in. So, thank you. >> Thank you >> and thanks for slowing down the train. >> Hi everybody. Holly Vera, 529 Windsor Avenue. Um, I just needed some clarification. If
somebody has a wet basement or there's a finding, you know, um does it prevent the actual COO from being issued then? So if there's, you know, a there's, you know, a puddle of water in the basement there, you can't
get your COO from that. So that prevents the sale of your home or do can somebody get a temporary COO with that? Like how does that work? >> It depends on the condition of the basement. I mean, if you're saying a puddle of water, the CO is going to be issued. There's the puddle of water is not a big deal. um if there's a two or
three inches of water in there, the inspector is going to note that there's water in the basement that but there's no immediate hazard or danger to the water being in the basement at that time. >> So the severity of the finding is what determines whether the COO is actually issued or not.
>> The severity of it and what is located in that area. I mean, if we have electrical outlets that are underwater, we're going to have an issue. >> So I can't I mean, every house is different. So if you have a finished basement and there's water in the basement, it's affecting the electrical,
then yes, it's going to be held up, >> right? But if it's a general basement, Tupperware down there, >> then no, it's going to be noted as long as there's no hazard to the to the homeowner or the house itself >> and you you can then sell your house and get a COO. >> Correct.
>> Right. Thank you. Thank you. >> Make sure you put the timer on for this guy. It's Joe Walters, 163 Frederick Avenue. I wanted to let some of the people here speak before I came up and I wanted to hear some of I wanted to keep an open mind on this, but I'm going to go back
to what Mr. Simon started off with and my question in the basket was if there's a hell in a hand basket, that's probably it. But the question that I asked is why are we here? Council took a vote at the last meeting to table and to go to
committee three to two and I can respect that and everybody here can respect that and I don't understand the last two meetings I I it seems like I've been at more council meetings in the last year than I care to attend to be honest with
you over this kind of stuff. The last meeting and this meeting don't you folks see it? You got a hostile audience out here that's upset. Not hostile may not be the right word, but these are your residents. These your constituents. These are your family. These are your
friends. Maple Shade has been getting by for a long time. We have a hell of a lot here to be proud of. I've been part of this community my entire life. My family, my grandparents, everybody. A lot of us feel that way. And then tonight,
Kyle, you said that, you know, I learned I asked for this information the last couple days, three requests. I've been asking for what everybody got dropped in their lap tonight to kind of take it all in tonight. Ask questions, do a basket thing. I've never seen anything like
this anywhere. I think it's ridiculous. >> Okay. >> I think it should be in a committee. But Kyle, you said that this was your idea that you bought this forward. With all due respect, take it back. I've been selling real estate full-time 35 years
in this town. I've represented the township, the school board, a lot of residents, sold commercial properties, residential properties. We don't need this overkill. This is overkill. And some people have t called me over
the last week or so and and it's kind of the same thing I've been saying is why can't we start off with where we're at and go a little by little with what's safety? Fire detection, smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors, fire extinguishers.
Okay, simple things in the house and then get the hell out of the people's house. They don't want you in their house. And then go on the outside. Do you want to talk about rip screens? Do you want to talk about cracked sidewalks? I mean, how far do you want to go there? But we should start off here. And over time, we start to see
things and different councils will start to see things and the manager and everybody else will say, "Code enforcement, yourself, people start to say, we're seeing this problem come up over and over and over. We need to add a little something to address this." Now,
the way I see it, I'm a little more active than a lot of people here, but the way I see it, a lot of this seemed to start up over the summer, and I could be wrong. And I'm sure somebody here is probably going to say, "No, that's not the case, but it started off with this swimply
thing with a pool party and then we went from a pool party to Airbnb. We're not having any Airbnbs. I don't have an Airbnb. Have no interest in Airbnb. I made that on the record. That was back in July. >> You passed it, >> Joe. We passed it. >> I I understand that. >> Okay. Well, you're saying not having it,
but >> but I'm saying >> much to >> the meeting the meeting I and you were totally I I respect that and council listened. You had an audience full of people that said you can't do that and Airbnb well only affected from what Susan said 27 rough that we know of 27
properties. Okay. I don't know how many swimpls there were or are, but thankfully you guys decided to keep airing B&Bs and then there's inspections on that and now now we're revamping all of 15 chapter 155
and and I don't I just don't understand how we go from here to here overnight. You've heard it over and over again. You have to start listening to these people. The five of you are the council.
It appears to me in my opinion that and you've you've all heard me heard this maybe Chuck and Sandy haven't heard it that tail wagging the dog. We can't have Susan you're the tail. >> I know you tell me all the time >> and listen. Yes. And and I've said and
Susan knows and and I've told Susan this to her face to face and I've told most of council and I excuse my French the way I say this but I say she's full of piss and vinegar and I love her energy and she knows I've told her that to her face. I've told council that I love her energy. I think she can be a great
manager, but if she's not doing what council ask her instructs her to do, which I don't know if it's happening, and you can see from here that you're not doing what the public's asking to do, we have a
problem. And if we can't get our manager, and Kyle, you're new here. If we can't get our employees to do what council desires because this is what the residents desire, then we need to start terminating people.
>> Just want to address a couple things as far as inspection goes. >> Okay, we're at five minutes. So, >> well, I'm using Mr. Zable's time. >> Okay, >> Mr. Z can't come up now. Well, I'm using his
>> inventory inventory is up 62% since all this started. The listing inventory in Maple Shade is up 62%. >> I think that's that speaks volumes. It's It's not just a coincidence. Something's happening to where it's affecting
>> One sec. FYI, I'm not going to a meeting. I'm going to a little boy and you have five minutes. >> Four and a half. As far as inspections go, I disagree with your solicitor and with Kyle and with anybody who thinks
that when a inspector goes through and inspects A through let's say E and two weeks later, one week later or two years later, something happens and somebody gets sued because your inspector went through and passed C on that inspection
or part of the ordinance and they say it was in here and we got a CO and now this person got hurt or there was a fire or whatever happened or a death and now because his fingerprints are on that co and that part of the inspection. We got one attorney here I know and I
got one up here. You tell me that you're not going to sue and name the township of Maple Shade. It's real easy. If we're not involved, if we're not doing that part of the inspection, you can't be named. Can't be liable. So why
are we opening ourselves up to liability by everything you add? The more you add, it's just like buying a car. The faster it goes, the more it does, the more expensive it is, the more your insurance goes up. That's what we're doing here. Keep it. I'm not against the co by no
means. And I want to be clear on that. But we have to be realistic about it. This is an older town with older people. You heard I I'm not going to repeat what everybody said. They spoke for themselves. We need to listen to that and keep it simple.
I'm going to give you uh an example of a commercial sale that I sold Maple Shade as is with no CO. Susan, you can write down the address. You can investigate it if you want.
It's 30 East Main Street. I represented the township of Maple Shade. They got to sell the former town hall. For some of you that don't know the history, I came in to Jackie McVeyy's office and the and the council that was
president at that time at the 11th hour because they had Hardrove Company give an estimate on demolition because they couldn't sell it. It was listed with Linda Roar, not to throw her under the bus. She's a very nice woman, but it couldn't sell. Chuck was showing the
building. Is Chuck still here? He left. I was showing the building. We're showing a kind of off record and at the 11th hour I came in with the full price offer. We had conditions. We had to be very uh very uh careful how we put everything together and and and put the
the the transaction together. But look at the building today. Look how it serves the community. Look at the the buyer who bought it and the money they put into it and look at the ratable that's there. So things can happen and most of the time, this isn't just with
commercial, but people do buy a property and they intend on fixing it up. It's your investment. I honestly don't know too many people that buy a property and just let it go to hell and figure, well, it'll appreciate somewhat. I'll die here, whatever. I don't care. They're either it's their retirement, it's their
leaving it to their kids, something along them lines. They're concerned about keeping their property up and keeping it safe. The last thing I'm going to say is I won't be here for your next meeting. So you have a break, Chuck. You got a break.
>> I won't be here for the next meeting. So that's why I wanted to speak tonight. >> Watch. >> I will be watching it. I will be watching it. But we need to go to a committee with this and we need to simplify it so that it's less obtrusive
on people and stay out of their house. Kyle, you it sounds like you have a lot to do. I don't know why we're doing more. We have uh previously the previous council you talked about raising $500,000 through the new fire department
in fees. That hasn't happened, right? Then it was cannabis, $48,000 per year for the license. That hasn't happened yet. Then it was, "Let's hit the school board with a $67,000 water and sewer bill to kind of offset your budget." And
what do I say as a resident? And I don't know if you folks are catching on to this, but you say, "Hm, sounds like they're trying to make up about $700,000." And then when this is thrown up, you have to you have to say to yourself, is our manager just trying to come up
with another form to raise fees and and and get some revenue in because they use $4 million of to offset the budget this year of surplus and they have about another $4 million for next year. What happens after that? So, you have to
start to wonder why is this even coming up like this all of a sudden? and we can put it on the next agenda for introduction. I say you take it off. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Anyone else? Uh Joanne Mortimer, 39 Lanc Road.
I think we have to use some common sense here. There's a lot of variables in what the township is proposing. Do we really really need to go there?
Okay. I've been a realtor for 23 years. And as time has gone on, there's more and more in a contract than was perhaps Sandy when you bought your house. The last contract I did had 28
pages. All right, that's a lot of pages. And every page probably represents a lawsuit. My take on this is this. Let the home inspectors
do their job. Let them do their job. When they go in, they just don't look at visible stuff. They actually go into atticss and under crawl spaces and under porches. They do
all that. Now, in looking at some of the surrounding codes that other townships have now, um, we were told that and you named townships,
but it's kind of odd that some of the closest townships you weren't able to find online, >> but I went right online and found them. Okay. Uh, you did mention Cherry Hill. Okay.
Cherry Hill does exterior inspections and I think the exterior is important to make your town look nice. And of course, there's safety issues involved. Also, the only time they will
go into a home is if the house has been vacant for six months or longer. All right? So, that's what Cherry Hill does. Uh, I also checked Cinnammenson and I think Sandy uh, not Santi our
township manager. Susan, you live in Cinnamonson, correct? Okay. >> Went to Cinnammenson. Cinnammenson has no CO except for fire inspection,
but they also come out and check the sewer line. And I think this is very important. That's something that a home inspector does not do. The buyer actually has to hire a
separate plumber to come in and inspect. So I think Cineson by checking the sewer lines. That's a very good thing that they're doing. All right. Also Morstown Morstown checks for
sidewalks. You can have trip hazards. That's part of an exterior inspection. I think that's important. They check sidewalks. They check encroachment onto their township properties.
I don't know how they do that. And they check to make sure that the water meters are functioning properly. These are things that our township can start with instead of a full-blown inspection where
we have to hire all different types of people. Okay, the water department can come out, exterior inspections go very quickly and you're still helping the people in the township.
Let the home inspectors do their job. We have other things to be concerned about. I ride around and I see cars parked on lawns that can be part of an exterior
ordinance or whatever we want to uh pass. Uh you can ride around and see that people are working in their houses. They're going to have dumpsters on their properties.
I mean you could see if they have a permit or not. There are different types of things. We need to go slower with this. And I think if a committee is formed and people sit down and actually
look at common sense and how to approach this, I think we would be better off. >> Thank you for your time. >> Anybody else? Um, while the next person's coming up, Kyle, I do have a question because she
brought up a a good point. You know, you're going to go into a basement and if you see a cracked joist, you're going to make them replace it or I don't know how that will will happen other than, you know, they don't get the CO. But then that brings up crawl spaces and
attics. >> Like, we're going to inspect one part of the house, but we're not going to do an inspection on the whole thing. and people talk in towns. So, if this person was made to fix the floor joist and that person over there had a broken floor joist that it didn't get inspected
because we're not doing crawl spaces and attics, I think that presents a problem for the township. Back to what Lou was saying, too. Like, so these companies are charging 400 500 for home inspection, spending four or five hours there. This isn't feasible. you you
would have to take four hours to go through and inspect the house and you don't have that kind of time and if you miss something it goes back to what Lou is saying we become on the hook for it. So I just wanted to get that out there. >> Thank you. Hi. >> Hi March Terry 200 East Lynwood.
>> Thank you. >> Um obviously again a lot has been said here. I think it's really important to understand that everybody right we're all concerned about safety. I can pretty much guarantee that there are plenty of homes here that have long-term residents
that you could find a dozen safety violations in the house. So, what do you do? I mean, you're not going to go in and say, "Hey, I want to inspect your house." Right? We don't do that. So, I guess for me, I I think that um there's
a lot of good things in here. You know, again, we want to keep people safe. I bought two houses in Maple Shade. Just as an example, Kyle, and excuse me, I'd like a little more information on the ASIS and how that's going to function.
So, in my last house, I moved in ASIS. I bought it from family. I moved in ASIS. It was eight years until I was able to upgrade my electric, right? So, you know, I got the permits. I had the inspection. Everything was fine.
How long are you going to be labor this when it could potentially take years to I had knob and tube, right? Well, you know, you can't you can't even have knob and tube anymore with insurance. So, I feel like this could be like a
neverending process for people and there are a lot of old houses that people just want to move in and fix up as they go along. I'm like I said, two houses. I'm one of them. I don't have any issues with my house. I'm sure you could come in my house and say, "Yep, I'll give you
your CO." But I really am concerned about that asis clause. So, I think for Andrew your point, I do think that we need to get a little more into the details of what's what. There's a lot of things in here that seem subjective to me. So, you
really do need to, I think, to appease everybody here. Get them written down, talk about them, get them get them written down. and one of the young ladies came up and said, "We need a checklist and we need to be guaranteed that you're just going to look at the
things on that checklist." I do worry. You are reasonable. You seem reasonable. You're one person. You're not beholden to stay in Maple Shade forever. So, that's all I would ask council. You know, reconsider the I maybe you have considered it. Maybe you're going to
have this, you know, group of people, real estate, maybe some residents, but really we need to just, I think, pump the brakes a little bit and just slow down. Susan, you already mentioned like January. I think that's too soon. So, I
I really think that obviously, you know, people are upset here. They're cons that was the earliest that >> Right. So, I I just for myself, I vote that you need to have a committee and get some, you know, get some more. Maybe you're going to hear the same thing, but
maybe you can flesh out the details a little. And just one more thing. Just because 80% of other townships in this state have things on the book does not mean it's right. I'm not one to say like, well, they did it and they did it and they did. Doesn't mean it's right
for us. may be right for us, but you know, you can't just say I'm going to follow all the leaders. I do think there's a concern to lastly with the elderly because I think it's going to put a burden on some of our elderly residents and that's all I have. Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> Here comes >> Hi, good evening. Caramel, 31 Overbrook Avenue. Um, my question in the basket was about the number of vacant homes in Maple Shade. I've lived here all my life. So, I could say from driving
around, don't see a huge number of vacant homes. Um, compared to the total number of homes, like what percentage are we even Do you have an idea, Kyle, of even like a percentage of what we have? >> No, not off the top of my head. No. Um, I don't I don't enforce the vacant
properties in the town, so I don't have that information on me. >> Okay. because I I get the feeling like this whole CO thing is to bring up safety, our property values, um what's important to a community as a whole, but if the there's a small number that are
not complying with what needs to be done, we have code enforcement. They can easily drive by, see what's wrong, see the overgrown grass, see the yard, the houses in the yard. I mean, the cars sitting in the yard. Um I know there was a property right down the street from me that sat empty. older woman passed away
unfortunately and it's a year and a half before someone got in there. A year and a half. Flipper took forever to go through things. I don't know whether they did a great job or they didn't, but I know there's a young family in there now. But if I sat was the one exactly right next to them for a year and a half
with animals running in and out of that house, I wouldn't be happy either. But that's a vacant home. And if it was reported as such, there may have been something in our codes as a code enforcement person. Do we have a vacant property ordinance that addresses some
of those things? >> So, we did have a vacant property uh program that is and the state deemed it that it was not viable and so we had to cancel that program. Okay. So now what happens is when there is a vacant property, the mortgage uh company or the um the owner of the property has a legal
obligation to let us know that it's vacant. However, lots of times too with those things and they're supposed to be giving us a name so that we can go to that person. What we're finding is is that we're getting names that are incorrect. We're getting people that have left the companies. We don't have somebody that we can go directly to. So
and I the property that you're speaking to and I know there was a property that was brought up at the last meeting. Unfortunately, those owner just died. There's nobody. We couldn't find we couldn't find anybody like and we can't just go in and take the property and do things. So, town
does different things that they do, but we are on the vacant properties. We do work, but if we don't have a contact, we spin our wheels here going round and round trying to find somebody. Township then has to maintain. Attorneys get involved. I mean, we do have several of those properties currently that we're working on.
>> Okay. trying to find who the owner is so that we can >> and and I and I appreciate that. Absolutely. But I think there are a vast majority of us like people have said, we buy our homes. We're not here to let them just fall to crap and not take care of them. This is our investment in our
homes in our children to have the homes when we're done. We take pride in what we're doing. So, I don't really feel like there's a huge issue to bring such a big change in to the sale of the thing. That that's just
my two cents. I do have a couple concerns with the housing inspector. And Kyle, forgive me. I didn't even know you were here as a as an employee. How long have you even been here >> in four months? Five months. >> Okay. And so, you're bringing this forward as you feel it's something that's important for everybody. My
concern is what you look for in your inspection. If that in any way conflicts with what the buyer's home inspector says, who gets the final call on that? So, it's going to have to be you or the property won't sell. So, then you have a
buyer and seller who are already negotiating home inspection issues or um whatever pricing, things like that. Now they have to add another layer of inspecting or another layer of negotiating because you have now added something that maybe that home inspector
didn't get or to your point Sandy maybe they did get the home inspection. Now the buyer's like oh you better come off of this property another 10 grand because you're not going to get a co if you don't do this this and this. So I can see how it's going to affect the sale of homes for sure. that shouldn't
be a way to instituting a CEO. But I agree with some of the other comments that we should be, if we're going to start something, let's start small. And I agree with your checklist, but we have outside inspections on a number of neighboring properties. It's outside
only. Okay? Show me the grass that you could have easily caught no railings on three stories to a a home. Anybody could have drove by and saw that was absolutely ridiculous and needed to be cited. Um, my other concern is based on the number of homes now that Joe Walters
just said or one of the other realtors, the amount of homes that are selling, do you have an office staff or is it just you? >> Right now it's just me. >> Okay. So, who's going to be doing the backend paperwork? Do we have to hire someone else? Do we have to hire more
inspectors to keep up with because once you put it in, we're not going to take it back. What What does that as a taxpayer for me? What's that make my taxes go up? Now, everybody knows our taxes never go down. Mine have roughly inched up $150 every year. I know it's
mostly the school, but there is a level of fiscal responsibility. Adding more inspectors, adding staff to accommodate something that was on a wish list of an employee who just started here four months ago. That's my take and no
disrespect me whatsoever. Um, I also wanted to remind council that we're we're citizens. We we don't read housing code books. We don't we don't digest 16 pages of an ordinance
and then nine pages of an ordinance when you hand it to me right here. I'm 62 years old. I can't keep up with all of that and know what's in my head and have a good question and answer dialogue available. I take it home. I digest it
much like you do. You look at things, but you get it in advance. We got nine pages dropped in our lap as soon as we walked in the door today. That doesn't help me. I'm looking at my other one with 16 pages. My husband's sitting next to me. We're looking at the nine pages. How can you expect a reasonable dialogue
and a good question and answer session when it's dropped in our lap the day of the town council meeting? Um, so I I appreciate that there's a consensus in general that it's a good idea to just slow this down. Give us more of a chance. The ones who are showing up, the
ones who are interested, and the ones who have been emailing you and talking to your talking your ear off when they see you in town, give us a chance to digest it. Give us a chance to throw our two cents in. And it might be that we can all come to a good consensus, but we just need a little time to vet out all
of these concerns. So, I appreciate you guys taking that time to do it. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. Anybody else? >> Oh my god. >> Hi. >> Why don't we control him? No. >> Control him. >> Austin Bar, 553 Cutler Avenue, Maple Shade.
>> Hi guys. Uh, so first of all, thank you. Um, as someone who's been in the home services industry for the last 15 years, this is something that I encounter with other municipalities all over the state all the time. And I really appreciate you introducing something like this because I think it's important here in town. I know everybody's upset and
they're worried that it's going to be too constrictive, but in reality, something like this is very simply to keep you safe. There's been no municipality I've ever worked in up and down this state and I've worked in almost every one that has been overly restrictive and people can't sell their
homes, people can't do their business. That's not what I've encountered anywhere ever. So, I don't think that starting smaller or anything else. I think this is a process and a program and an ordinance that we need to have
and it's a process that needs to start now. So, that's really all I have to say. I've seen a lot that's under these homes in Maple Shade. I've seen a lot that's under the homes in Cinnamonson and in Morstown and in Mount Laurel and in Willingboro. This county is getting old and if we don't do something to
encourage residents to keep up with it while they're there or to be able to enforce it during the sale, we're going to end up with a lot of problems and a lot of liability. So, that's all I got. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Anybody else? >> All right. Seeing none, can I have a
motion to close? Second. All in favor? >> I >> Okay, >> Joanne, are you done? Did you Did you have something else? >> Are you finished? >> Yes, I am. >> Okay, thank you. >> She's going to go around for public art.
>> It was Yes, that's correct. >> All right, so moving over to council comments. Sandy, >> thank you for your input and uh that's all I have to say. Okay, Chuck, >> no comments. Thank you, M. >> Uh, John,
>> I just going to read off some things my take. Some of them may be extreme to a point. Um, but the first one being government permission to occupy or transfer property. Um, I want people to just think about this. I know there's
two sides to every story, but the requirements to obtain a certificate of inspection prior to occupancy, rentals or sales effectively prevents homeowners from exercising basic rights without township approval. Excessive fees and
financial burden. Uh initial and repeat inspections, whatever those costs may be, imposed hidden taxes on residents. If violators are not connect uh corrected within 90 days, applicants uh refile at full cost, punishing families
financially. Uh delays in sales and rentals, real estate transactions, leases could be blocked or delayed uh due to inspection backlog or minor issues harming both buyers and sellers. Invasive data collection and oversight.
the requirements to report names and all ages of occupants and is intrusive and unrelated to property safety. Uh unreasonable maintenance mandates. Uh homeowners may face penalties for routine wear and tear such as grass
lengths, painting, fencing. Subject these subjective subjects standards invite arbitrary enforcement. The ordinance allows for fines up to $1,500 per day, jail time, or community service, criminalizing ordinary people,
conditions, property conditions, is extreme and unjust. Restrictions on family living arrangements, minimum square footage per occupants, limits, how families can live in their own homes, disproportionately impacting
larger and multi-integr uh integrational households. Some of this is extreme, but it to me I I I agree with most people. I'm not against improving this township by any stretch of means, but it needs to
be done in a slow manner. And it needs to be done, in my opinion, with the people of this town, with the realers, and have a consensus and build on it. Start out small and build on it as time goes on. And as other people said, when
problems come up, we can address them. we can change the ordinance and we can go from there. That's my opinion. I think the people can think about those statements. But, uh, you know, the last thing I'm going to say is I
think hearing the people here tonight, I think it needs to go to a committee for discussion. And and there's been a lot of points of things that were brought up by people in this room that I didn't think about. Um, and they're all valid points and they need to be answered,
written down and and discussed and executed with with multi- people. >> Okay, John like to thank everybody in the audience for coming up and participating in this town hall. In my opinion, this town hall
uh we've gained more value than any committee because the committee made up of realtors and citizens of town isn't going to happen in the public. We heard what the public said. We will listen to what the public said. And I'm not saying that there is or isn't going to be a committee. The old ordinance was tabled.
It has not come off the table. So to say that there is not going to be a committee formed, that's not true. This, in my opinion, was better. We got way more people than the four, five, maybe six people. I don't know how many people go on a committee. Um, in my opinion,
the committees in the past that we've formed have not worked. We've we've sat there and discussed and discussed and discussed and it's come up to council and it's got voted down. The two committees that I was on, neither one
passed with lengthy discussions. So, I'm not saying that we're not going to form a committee. I'm just saying I thank everybody for their time and just want everybody to know that in my opinion, this was a better option than a committee. And if as Andrew has said
multiple times, it's my opinion. That's what I'm sticking to. >> It's a beautiful job. >> Thank you, >> Terry. Susan, >> you sure? >> Yeah, she's >> Brian. No, mayor. I just like to thank
you and council and quite frankly the public. I thought this was a very constructive dialogue >> constructive >> and I agree with the councilman that you know in my 25 years in municipal government a town hall forum is certainly more productive than a
committee where then things tend to get kicked down the road with no results. You know, obviously this council, particularly the mayor, is very sensitive to input from the public on such an important ordinance and this is
an important ordinance. So again, hopefully this dialogue and interest continues. >> Thank you, Mayor. >> I was trying. >> Can I make a comment? >> Sure. You have my minute. >> One minute. So in regards to the
committee. All right. There's been a lot of committees over time that have uh acted in this township and I know what John's speaking of and you know I'm not going to get into that part of it but if it's kept on the agenda and it's discussed and we have a resolution for
little ones the committee to me is as important as what John's saying tonight. This is good. It's open public meeting and the people are here but we have to have the open public meetings for the regular meetings too and that's a part of the process for all of it not just
the committee not just you know an open public meeting for one entity or or one subject that we're speaking of. The people of this town do get involved when there's an issue but the issue right now is something that's going to be a
continuous issue. It's going to be something that needs to be addressed regularly. It can't be done in my mind in one thing and it and it's perfect in the world. It just doesn't work that way, you know, and listening to the people here tonight, everybody had a lot of legitimate points and I think in
fairness to them there it we can we can build on all them with or without a committee, but again uh it's just I'm making that statement uh about the committees. >> Kyle, did you have anything? No, I'd just like to thank the public for coming
out and voicing your opinions. I do take them into consideration as you see with the last meeting that I watched on on YouTube. You know, I refined some things and did some things. So, I appreciate you coming out and voicing your opinions on everything. Um hopefully you give this a chance and we can make sure
everybody's safe. That's all my goal is is make sure people are safe. So, >> thank you. Um again, thank you everybody for coming out, listen to what we have to say. Hopefully everybody took in what everybody has to say out here. here. We appreciate you coming instead of writing on Facebook
that some of us can't read. Um, thank you Kyle for tonight. Thank you for your work all week with the manager and with Brian. You did put a lot of time into it and I know it's not your job, but we do appreciate it. Um, I know that I I I am
one for I don't like change, but change is needed in this town and I know I ran on change. Um, and I'm try I'm try we're trying to change up here and it is going to be a hard one, but we will consider the residents every time. Um, I think the town hall meeting was a great
meeting. Um, and I I think I think we changed Andrew's mind on that even though he still wants a committee, but I think everybody coming out here and being transparent um is a great thing. So, I think that's all I have. Everybody have a great night. Motion to adjurnn. >> Can I have a motion to adjurnn until
township council meeting scheduled for October 16th, 2025 at 6:30? >> I'll second.