e e we ready yeah Mike walks in we just update the Maple Shade Township Zoning Board of adjustment February 12 2025 meeting will now come to order please
rise for the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation God indivisible with liberty and justice for all this meeting has been advertised in
accordance with the open public meetings act roll call please Frank laser Mike Stevens Beth Reeves presid Daniel McDonald present uh John
John I would prefer if we can uh o first and then R do the O okay yeah we need to have the first Robert want to do the O first so he can call all the members you can call the rooll sorry go ahead Robert says you can call the role okay Daniel
McDonald present Laura Kiri present Bill JGA present Joan Mortimer present Mariam bage Lou Valentino get and ready present chairman
G present we now have uh o of office all right I would ask Karen Rady nor karach and Dan McDonald stand please good you're all a
row get the exact word here do you Sly swear or affirm that you will support the Constitution of the United States Constitution of the state of New Jersey that you will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to
the governments established in the United States and in the state under the authority of the people and do you further solemnly swear or affirm that will it will impartially and justly perform all the duties of Office of the Zoning Board of adjustment member
according to the best of your ability so help you got I Do I Do Right congratulations okay before we call the first item into order uh Lou Valentino and Miriam beage are absent tonight so Dan McDonald alternate number one and
Beth Reeds alter number two will be voting members all members uh are present to vote I mean to talk about any application first on morning the agenda new business 16 South Forth Landing Road
block 126 lot 11 Holly an and Nicholas Keri application zba 24-14 Zone residence District R2 existing use bacon wood working shop
and residents upstairs proposed use beauty salon and Resident upstairs application use variance and site plan waiver approval hi hi sit down relax if you all have chairs say something to the board
right away I want to address an issue that might be important as we know Mr career is an employee of the township that's correct if there's any kind of appearance of impropriety he has to be on the application because they're buying the property together they're married he can sit in the audience he won't be a bring any testimony or he can
sit outside if that satisfies that question was raised to me I didn't get an answer is there a conflict I don't see one I don't think there is well he has nothing he's not going to be testifying if you want him to sit out there that's not not going to testify I would prefer to sit in the audience okay
well wait a minute you may have to answer a yes or a no we we get them up here well we don't we don't want to give any appearance of there will not be okay okay fine we have to swear some people in yes um Mr Walters I swear his raise your
right hand please you too both of you you swear or affirm that testimony tonight would be the truth all truth not the good truth that I do I do okay Matt want to tell what's going
on uh yeah I presented a bit of uh lot of blowups of pictures to everybody there's only one change in the application which I want to address regarding the sence when we were in committee for the U the site review there was sence proposed about the sign
that sticks out like M and after I submitted everything Mr prep IIs me that that sign is only permitted from downtown business so we are not in that downtown business area so I don't believe we can we can present that to the board that picture that sen your
package the one that sticks out like Main Street because everybody liked it let me go to that point right away I believe this is really is an extension of Main Street and if you're able to I think it gives an appearance to the town that we're looking for that
downtown I I truly believe it's we take a look at it consider the Varian is required that we would grant that variance okay okay I just and Matt you got your information from p p you said you didn't think it was uh legal uh it
is not legal if they want to place the sign perpendicular to the building then they need to se for the variance because designation of the property is under are there to excuse me did the advertisement said any and all variances yes okay so it's a variance I just didn't want to
create a problem to the board okay also uh uh Main Street naal shade Incorporated when the district was designed uh that was part of our district okay officially okay then I'll
find she if the applicant wants to do it we can get it done okay okay I guess the first person I'm going to use is Mr Walter to testify Mr Walters can testify about a lot of this spilling he's involved in this he's he's very involved in this
transaction knows these s very well good evening ladies and gentlemen um my name is Joseph Walters I'm with realy Mark properties in Marlton I'm also a resident in Maple Shade as some of you know uh the property in question is 16 South Fork Landing Road which was
formerly as some of you may know the property owned by the Lindsay family uh at some point back many many years ago I sold part of this property to the township and it became that angled parking along the side of the building so you're familiar with it sits right
behind the barow building and across from Carmen's Barber Shop the property has been owned uh by the Lindsay family for probably the last 30 some 40 years uh and the owners uh had listed the
property with me and where Nick and Holly Carrera are looking to purchase the property and put in what was formerly uh I was involved in that too formerly Rita's Hair Salon from Pensa
Rita was a tenant of the Linds and she operated a hair salon there similar to what Holly's proposing uh for about I'd say 10 or 12 years she was successful there uh until she retired closed up and she
passed uh so we're back at the property now it was formerly uh shade laser as a tenant it's vacant right now and uh Holly is looking to open uh what she's going to call Hollywood color room uh
she's been in the business for 19 years as a cosmetologist um and she is currently located at 1540 Nixon Drive in mortown she's been present she's been at that location for four approximately
four years her hours of operation will be uh Tuesday through Saturday from 9:00 a.m. to 700 p.m. currently she has three employees
including herself the maximum at this location she's proposing will be 10 employees six stylists an aesthetician a receptionist and possible two assistants
um the the most employees will be working on the days Thursday Friday and Saturday and I'll get into some some uh parking uh Joe what was the hours again the hours are 9:00 a.m. to 700 p.m. daily Tuesday through
Saturday Joe just one more one more question Mr chair the maximum shift I know you said you have 10 employees would that be the maximum shift that would be the maximum at any yes at any time there potential for 10 people po potential for 10 people would those 10
employees be 10 to 10 customers uh to answer that question the customer count on the 10 employees would be 6 to n maximum uh customers at that time giving a total of 19 maximum at that
location um Regular reoccurring deliveries was addressed uh she gets most of her deliveries if any shipments come on Thursdays and she gets approximately two two to three boxes mediumsized boxes
there's no tractor trailers no nothing uh nothing of that sort no box trucks or anything like that other than maybe ups that would drop off out front or Amazon things that we see in the neighborhood every day um the customers will use the front
entrance uh the employees will use the back entrance of the property as far as Recycling and trash goes uh Nick has proposed to uh build a a wooden Corral in the back of the property right now uh can I that one
photo Mount of the side the front side right now the property for years has been been using just the very front here to put the recycling cane which is kind of an iore and they agree to that
they they agree to house these now back in behind the property where you won't see it and close them in a wooden Corral so they don't get blown blowing around and we don't have trash garbage of recycling going around they those recycling cans and those trash cans will now be in the back for the business and
for the apartment upstairs uh they uh intend on using two cans to go out at any given time for the collection days um as far as the customers that visit the salon they should be uh the
location anywhere from 2 to 3 hours per customer uh Holly's going to get into what she does so I'll let her answer those questions and then you understand why they're there for two to three hours it's pretty interesting uh business that she has U Mr Z's going to answer some questions as regarding to the
signage as far as parking I did want to address the board on the parking I did a uh survey uh just recently on some of the days just to give you a flavor for how much parking is available in the in the general area and I I believe you
will have this copy so you see the subject property is here and the large Municipal parking right across the street which is behind Cafe Fontana the liquor store in the in the neighborhood of Carman barers
shop uh I did a survey that showed at 55 on a Monday February 3rd the large lot proposed 34 Open Spaces with six of them six handicap spots alongside of the subject property at 16 South Fork
Landing Road there were five available spots initially at the front part of that alley and toward the back headed toward Margaret Avenue there was an additional three spots so giving a total available spots I'm sorry there's three
spots in front of the property as well as three street spots that were available that was on Monday at a five 5:15 time so Joe where you say 70 spaces how many spots did you find available there total 51 45 spaces plus six
handicaps and at what hour that was at a Monday at 5:15 p.m. okay okay and where they say where you say 14 spaces how many spots were available at that time uh 45 space 45 spaces we said 14
you have an area here called 14 spaces oh okay on that on on the map on that area there was a total of eight okay and you have another area no in on Fork on South Fork Landing Road right in front of the property okay there's parking there for approximately
three cars Max that was wide open as well okay on Thursday why did you pick that time I just wanted to get a a busy time Maple Shay gets a lot of traffic with especially with Cafe Fontana some of the restaurants around there we get people people coming home from work and
they start to pick up food they're stopping and I wanted to get that parking lot when it was kind of busy okay at the end of the day on a Monday because a Monday is not your busy day in town for a lot of business but yet at that time it could be so the Holly then
uh what is your busy time of the day I have that yeah the first thing in the morning and mid like to midafternoon yeah say it one more time please like first thing in the morning and then like mid afternoon but on it depends on like if it's a weekday or a weekend the
weekend Saturday in the afternoon is way busier than would you like a Tuesday in the morning you know so Joe I I think there's one hour parking there and two two hour which isn't enforced there are two hour parking two hour Park okay all
right go ahead so on the next uh her busiest day is Saturday and I think I had stated that already Thursday February 6th at 11:45 a.m. right around noon the large parking lot where you see 70 spaces there were 27 Open Spaces with
five handicap spaces available alongside of the subject property where you see 14 spaces in the alley there were two available spaces and one handicap space in front of the property all three street parking spaces
were available the total count at that time was 38 spaces 32 regular spaces and six handicap spaces on a Saturday February 8th at 12:00 noon this is when Holly feels she's going to be the busiest right
about this time uh the large lot uh that you see four the 70 spaces there were open 24 spaces with four handicap spaces available in addition with that alongside of the subject property there were four spaces plus one handicap space
and all three spaces on the street were available at that time presenting 36 spaces 31 regular spaces and five handicap spaces so I think parking is pretty well covered with uh with what
she what she would need at any maximum time as I mentioned to the engineer 19 customers or 19 people with employees and customers that could create potentially 19 or so cars break that down a little bit um 19 being
the maximum M that's not every day what no no Holly what would you normally like what's a Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday I mean granted right now I only have three employees but the potential let say I had five to seven it' be like 10
12 maybe okay yeah so it's not every day that we're going to see and the schedules will be staggered all the employees will not be there all at the same time there will be shifts at what Saturday would be the busiest day the week just wanted to give you the worst case scenario right I understand I just want the board to understand that's not
starting at 9:00 a.m. okay yes Joe that was a nice recap so we can get an idea of the parking sure that's all I have if there's any questions for me any questions with regard to the parking or hours or anything of that nature thank
you can you tell us what kind of services do you currently do now and what you're going to do there so currently I specialize in I'm a master hair colorist for Goldwell which is a color brand and I am a master technician for a company called invisible be hair
extensions and what we do is we um we excuse me apologize that's okay Mike we do we do um mainly women's hair is our is our main focus so we do we thicken we
do like Services where we thicken women's hair and sometimes people do it for just aesthetic but most of the time we deal with people that have like health issues and you know it's a I am on a map so it for the company it's called invisible bead extensions
and it's well known throughout the country so people come from me to me from Delaware New York sometimes PA and they come in for a consultation for their 15-minute consultation they order hair and then they'll come back and
sometimes I do their color and which can vary from 2 to 3 hours and then we put their hair extensions in we blend them we hide them seamlessly so they're undetectable so that's my main focus and I do want to hire people and teach them how to do this as well so we have a whole team of people that can specialize
in this cuz I feel like this will help us stand out in the industry in contrast to your average Salon that you have around here you know and I feel like our Salon will bring more just Outsiders to Main Street and that's why I wanted to come to Main Street because I live in
town so I feel like we need to revamp it a bit you know and and bring it back to life and if I can help then I want to help and I think you will thank you any questions with regard to what is
done at the hair extension hair Hollywood color room yeah whatever that is called just one thing Mr chairman the aan it appeared at the December 3rd site plan reviewed morning at that meeting you did discuss the Hazardous or the
chemicals and how they were stored and how are they disposed if you could just go through that for the board yes on what how you're processed what what chemicals you use Etc so I have hair color and I have bleach the the hair color line that I use is a German hair color line so it doesn't come in your
typical tube applicators my color line has a dispenser system so everything is in these cans and they have a reservoir at the bottom of the bowls so you press down and the color comes up into the B bowls from the bottom and all
the cans are aluminum so they can be recycled um they are under pressure but there's never been an issue and um the company that delivers them to me is a private Courier Service and they're in North Jersey so everything comes directly to them so if I give them direct instruction to come to the back
door and drop off a delivery it's very private and discreet like no one would even know who they are they' think they were a customer FR is that answer yours yes absolutely yeah I have question so are we saying it's not hazardous waste it's not
considered no it's not considered hazardous Wast at all no okay yes sorry I any other questions comments Matt I have a question oh yes when was Rita's Salon there um
I would say say about four years ago because you had the wood guy who came into first be six years the Le leather guy came in first that was uh doing custom leather cuts and stuff two or
three years and then the woodwork guy came in that relocated now he's he was after Rita yes no he came yeah yeah they both came in after Rita it could be four to six years I'm not sure the exact time I know she was my I dealt with I dealt
with Rita she was in her 90s she woral stories here she worked into her 90s she was good for her she was tough she was tough so Robert the the hair salon in that it was replaced by a leather shop
and then a wood shop the idea of it being a hair sign at one time can influence your thinking about that shop but that use was abandoned and they need a use expance for what they're doing that is correct okay unless you consider leather work the
sameir color I don't think we can stretch that far no it's a bit much even in my line even Matt would make that no no no that Cal injy we would stretch things in Cal injury but they can't stretch that one
okay Matt what else do we have here uh signage uh the one sign which we discussed at the outset there are some pictures in your package there if you see the white outs there was one change that she wanted I wasn't able to get it to you
because but I found out that we might lose the extending sign and I there was a fear that she would get so she added one thing which I'll pass around to you it's one of the pictures you have but Rita had a sign on the side of the building and that's what she's what
would like to put back and I also put one I believe she still has to come in for signed permits anyway doesn't she doesn't there is something where a building faces two streets you can have two signs is that a street or is that
well main streets one block away well they cut through that lot like it's the street because I've almost been run over in the back CU I parked there every day they cut through to avoid the light so Robert I'll let let you make the call that if we have to give a variance for that or consider a variance for
the one on the side is handwritten in is there a street along here the fact there is there a driveway there driveway to the parking it goes all the way through to is it public it's public yeah it's public parking there and there's also parking stores down
there purchas that I think I don't think you need a variance for that sign but I think you ought to mention that you approve if that's what you want to do right but but are we saying that she can't have this sign they're saying we C the front nail this on the building okay
so the question then can I have two signs and the uh consideration is the fact that the building does face two streets yes yeah so you can all right and Matt besides looking
at that do you have another picture of that what that what that is supposed to be that that drawing I gave you is the only one I have with it written in the one I I gave you you have it is the one so whatever that sign is you're going to submit something that she's going to submit it there's actually a handwritten one on there which she yeah well that's
what I'm looking at no yeah cuz we this is short notice that I appreciate your artwork but I want to I didn't do that that's hers I got hit that tonight I threw it together just in case the other sign wouldn't work all right so one question on that sign that's perpendicular how high is it I just want
to make sure kids I'm not yeah we're open yeah whatever you think my only concern is that I have people come from States so they're not from here at all and I don't want them to get confused like if they're coming off from Main Street or if they're coming from the opposite direction off for Landing Road
like if they miss that building it's a hard it's hard to turn around and get back and find your way you know so I just want it to be like booming whenever you think work I'll go with it we'll submit to whatever you guys think yeah whatever you think I normal teenagers probably 8 feet so we
need to go good point Out Of Reach okay so anything else actually I have a question I can put planters out front like flush up against the building and everything is there any I think frig
would love that okay I know he had mentioned it might even autograph so Fred we we need an engineer's report uh I think Mr Walters gave the Eng
report but I will go through and say that this is a relatively straightforward application as a changing use uh obviously a site plan is not required for this we the biggest issue was the storage of the waste and the recycling and we just heard that the
applicant's going to build a container right now it's an isore we all know it's an isur when you go by um the primary reason we're here is the D1 variance which is the fact that this is a residential Zone this is the R2 Zone but we have heard testimony that it was a
salon it was the leather in the wood now we're back to a salon so it's consistent with what has been there it is consistent with the neighborhood if you were to go out there anyone that's familiar with it which hopefully is everybody um we look at the positive the special
reasons the positive and a negative but I think we've heard all those tonight uh I don't see anything negative unless the board sees the negative the waste disposal there's no hazardous material they're providing the service so that's positive and we've heard Mr Walter's
parking uh analysis and there certainly seems to be sufficient parking and the only one who really would suffer I would think would be you know the applicant and some of the other people in the area so you feel comfortable with the parking and the number of employees okay we had heard at site plan that one of the
gentlemen on site plan at the time had his office there were in that area and he had he said there was difficulty parking at times um but again uh we have the analysis and we did that when the app the gentleman that was
doing the expansion over top of right next to the Chinese restaurant he came in and we did a whole analysis we had Bob Stout's office over in cinam do a real engineering study on the parking and they provided that there was more than sufficient parking at that time so I I think we're in good shape with that
um things that the board has to consider is compatibility with the surrounding area I think you're going to look at that uh any mitigating factors and we we've heard that this really is when you ride down there you don't ride out of Main Street it's still not residential homes you're still until you get to the
church and after the church then it's more residential zone so this is more suited and fitting to the neighborhood um and that's that's the next item um will this adversely impact the neighborhood or the Zone which is our Main Street and uh this really isn't to
me an area that's stuck between the R2 and our our commercial Main Street area so I don't see any issues with that it's consistent with the spirit intent and purpose of our zoning ordinance I would agree with that I think we've heard testimony that it's
consistent with prior uses I don't see anything else that's changed out there there's no transitions going on that I'm aware of uh brings a new service in uh won't detract from any of the other businesses I think if anything the one thing we didn't talk about was and I
know are you buying the building yes oh okay that's the one thing I want want to say this changed okay the first time you're going to have resident owner perfect that first time in very long time because the lindies haven't been there they've just leased and we know what happens the
siding the windows yeah Fred I have a question for architecture yeah this is the back of the building yes that's correct and this is where your employees will be entering yes and this is the apartment up top yes okay is there an is
this the back door the apartment yes not to the apartment not to the apartment the apartment door is right next to the the front it's right in the front next to the salon and is there a back door to the apartment no back door is not Clos now I'm saying is there another way
for the people to get out of the apartment upstairs that's what I'm saying that is the back door yes the upstairs yes and they're on the roof is that it the overhang or whatever that is it's got more less it's what it looks like a carport to me it does but I'm I'm
just saying how can if people can get out of that door how are they getting to the ground that's what I was wondering I think we're going to work I think we're going to work on that it used to be a deck it needs a dressing see you are going to testify that's why we sore you I just know a little bit about it used
to be a so tell us about they tore it down we we did not swear steps going swear affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth all truth I'll to put the truth up you got so tell us about um but there was a deck up there at one point so you could
get in there were there stairs so how how would someone get out of there there was a front bedroom fire are they how they going get out the I could answer the question we have we have many apartments like this on on
Main Street Maple Shade uh where you have the entrance maybe from either the front or the back and that is the only in andout of the prop of the property but that that doesn't mean it's right so will it pass a fire inspection we
already have it no no we already have the fire inspection from from who from Maple Shade from who chief chief car who from Chief car he okay the way this stands yes I have I have the fire I have it I already
have it because they are closing on the property so it had to be done I'll talk to that would be my only concern Mike is with the fire department so he has a concentration in there and and you should have a concentration on so then
the question is in that you're familiar with the property um is there a way to create a stair well absolutely we have to get a construction are you opposed to that oh no I I think that really would be up to
between the Fire official and really the construction official I just want to see if he's opposed to that and if he's not opposed to it then it's something that can be worked out yeah I mean like oh it's an easy fix yeah it's just the fact
I can't believe pass that I'll be talking to him tomor don't they have the the ladders that that pull down in an emergency they have stairways like that emergency stairways seen that's like third four I mean it's easy to install I
don't know how expensive it is today yeah imagine there might be something easier okay Robert so we can get off this topic what is the board's obligation with regard to that you can make in conditions upon passing a fire inspection okay and of course if you've
already done it then you have satisfied the condition do you have that with you yeah this is I believe it was done in November I'm not mistaken told the Linds they have six months so that we we had that done ahead
of time this is for for the sale smoke detectors that's for the sale yeah but not that's what they require for Resale by the in town only thing they require in town that's so different than what he's yeah where are we with Public Safety
here what what's Our obligation as a board your obligation is to make it conditioned upon a fire safety inspection okay what he showed me you're okay with this Ain fire detector inspection this is
justor yeah that's what we said Mike and Mike just to uh bring you up to date here and the entrance this application it will be of safy Nevers there never was any steps at all
in the back no but we're just saying I was wondering if there was any inside that went downstairs to the back door in the front but you're buying the property and you're going to rent to someone on the second floor and you want those people to be safe in case go a bit of fire happen absolutely we'll do anything
that needs to be done to keep them of course there's going to be a lot of things that are going to be up and renew we plan on it we plan on it we plan on working on the downstairs and getting right on so you're not opposed to a condition of approval that says you're going to get a fire safety inspection
sure yes okay again I didn't mean to be rude or just business it's fine as soon as I see that door way to go down I get if it was me I jump wait when I saw the place I I mean I was like we're going to do some work you know what strange though I do a ton of real estate most of
the towns South Jersey all they check is carbon monoxide and sckers they do not do fire safety inspections which is do not and like I said a lot of them I'm just telling you and some extreme South Jersey they don't want to do the smoke and the
fire no I qu I question it okay we're Beyond this right now we have a solution okay okay yes all right is there anything else for yes some other items for the board to consider is if this change is in the best interest of the
township uh considerations if it's logical efficient and I think all these things are we heard testimony I'm just going through this because this is the process I know um and the last thing is uh you can impose any conditions you'd like which you've just heard um but I
did want to talk about the architecture real quick if there's any improvements the planners out front fantastic anything else to make Fork Landing Road look a little better is much appreciated I put I tried my best with the one image I don't know if he
gave it to you but I did we did put I want to put a picture window in the front and a clear glass like door you know great that is one of the pictures yes there there it is that's the one you have here yeah kind of did the AI generated thing with the Planters in the front you know just to give you an idea
of what we plan on doing solid glass that one thank you and and just to follow follow up and I I won't step in any toes of a fire person for sure but uh there are building code regulations for secondary access and it's usually
based on a number of units in a building uh if this is a single unit it may only require a single access but again I'll leave that to the fire when you get to three units that's where you need fire suppression and and uh secondary means of access and so forth but uh with it's
one unit upstairs one so again we'd have to go to the fire code and and the construction code offici okay whatever the code says though yeah young couple that's going to start a business in town they live in town and you want to make sure that if you rent to somebody that they're safe absolutely so
so you're going to take care of that okay and the last thing there are tenants in the building right now what's that there are tenants in the building okay the last thing is really Ada access um every every business on that road has a you know a step so I don't know how
you will address address that if you back entrance has a ramp and it's 36 in wide okay is it accessible that's far as we can tell yes because we don't have a site you know we don't have a site PL I believe that's how she got older people into the building read There is a ramp
is that this yes all way in underneath could could you provide us just some details no step up there's no step up there's a ramp it's concrete concrete ramp could could you provide our office with some photos or detail just as a
condition of approval so we ensure that and not only the picture of the ramp but also the the access from the back to the front but there is a clear path to get there okay okay okay any other questions of the
engineering report if not we're going to open up this application to the general public is there anyone in the general public who would like to speak for or against this application oh my God look at that you just scared her I know he going to
head turn now okay seeing none I'm going to close the public portion of the meeting I'm going to come back to the board members and ask them if they have any questions concerns comments issues that they would like to speak before making a
motion I don't hear any so is there a motion the motion would include use with site plan waiver subject to the conditions we discussed and that's only one motion correct yes okay is there a
motion Karen R second seconded by anybody Phil okay roll call please little reluctance there my God bet approve Daniel McDonald approv Laur kii
approv B JGA approved join morer approved K ready approved chairman G approved your application has been unanimously approved there is a 45-day right of appeal so if you do anything
within those 45 days you're doing so at your own risk and there's 90 days within which you need to do something or else you have to appear back before the board and I don't think you want to do that six months six months thank you thank you
thank you I appreciate it good luck [Music] okay the next item on the agenda 14 Mars Avenue block 84.1 Lot 2 Eastern Lift Truck Company
Inc application number zba 2412 Zone Business Development BD existing use vacant Warehouse proposed use general warehouse and storage application use variance and minor site plan approval my understanding is that
this applicant would like a continuance right yeah okay and Robert we need a motion to that effect a motion to commun to a specific date and that specific date is March Yeah March 3th okay so we need a
motion to continue the Eastern Lift Truck Inc application to March 12 do I have a motion I'll make a motion Dan McDonald motion seconded by Joanne I'll second it Joanne roll call
please Daniel mcdonal approve laii approve JGA approved join martim approved Karen R approved chairman G approved next item on the agenda 30 3
McCrae lanee block 38 Lot 4 Dean Evans application zba 24-15 Zone resident District R1 existing use residence for family dwelling propose use residents for family
dwelling application certification of a pre-existing nonconforming use or alternatively a D1 use fance approval gentlemen yes good evening Mr chairman members of the board to briefly
introduce myself my name is Peter chus I am One More Time Peter chus I can spell that if you need to can you say that backwards CN aage uh c
ha C an as in Nancy I A S as in Sam and I'm going use Peter okay what's up I'm going to use Peter oh please please to that's the tricky Greek last name so I'm I don't mind my people calling me by my first name um I'm from the law firm of Highland live in shyro actually my
colleague Robert barinowski filed this application but something something came up and he said Pete do you mind covering and I said sure I have no problem going to Maple Shade for my first application before this board so um we're here tonight as the chairman mentioned uh the
uh applicant and owner of the property is Mr Dean Evans sitting to my right for the property located at is he going to testify yes he is you have to swear me who is this J and to my left is uh uh Mr Jim Kyle our planner okay
John you don't have to stand you're okay just read your right hand you swear or affirm the testimony give tonight will be the truth all truth nothing but truth something yes I do and again this is concerning the property located at 32 crave Lane and
Maple Shade also known as block 38 Lot 4 um as the chairman mentioned what we're proposing tonight are two separate requests um to be alternative to one another the first is for a certification of a pre-existing non-conforming use for the property as a multif family dwelling
with four units um and the second if that application or that request is unsuccessful is for a use variance pursuant to uh njs njsa 40 colon 55 um d 70D for a use variance to permit the uh multif family 4unit property within the
Zone just to give the board some background on this property the applicant purchased the property in 2005 and at that time the property was multif family it was already separated into four separate units so he has owned the property and rented it in that time for
about 20 years at this point so from I believe it was uh December or August December of 2005 to now in um February 2025 so just Just sh I have 20 years uh the reason we're here today is on July 16th and then again on September 23rd of
204 the applicant received uh notices of violation from the township which read and I'm going to quote here the zoning records for the property do not show any Municipal board application or approvals for the conversion of the existing dwelling into a multif family dwelling
and saying that therefore the property was in violation one of the reasons actually the main reason and the only reason why there was never an application for an approval to convert the property into multif family is because the property has been multi family based on the records that we found since at least
1940 so for almost 100 years we're going on 85 years now and those records are yes I'm going to go through those piece by piece um uh and certainly before the the ordinance was adopted I believe in in 56 and then again in 71 I think
removed the um two family home from the R1 but again our our the property existing as multif family predates all of that essentially which is why there was never anything asking to approve it because it was an existence long before that so um we're asking that the board
Grant a certification um that this is a pre-existing use and of course I'll go through some of the evidence that we found um a bit and go through the EV you you mentioned that Mr Evans bought the property in 2005 yes do you have the
agreement of sale that states what that property was as a use when he bought it uh we don't have it with us tonight but um I don't know that it was there was necessarily an agreement of sale because of the type of property however there is uh the deed itself um which I I believe
the tax records and the class reflect that it's listed as a multif family uh quadplex effect if you want to address that de uh it was purchased as a four unit uh um home uh back in 2005 and to the best of your knowledge
it was a four for the PRI prior owner stated it was a a four unit uh when they bought it uh she bought it in 1995 I believe my neighbors's next door
when they moved into that their house in 1978 said that it was a 4unit uh property when they moved in and uh my title company listed that it was a
4unit uh property and when the uh they came to the township to the tax department on the tax bill it stated it was a quad
unit Mr Evans I know you're not familiar with what requires a prop to be designated as a multi family unit but all of those things that you mentioned do not constitute what it needs your
prior records to prior to 1956 uh or a resolution on record in the township that says it's a multif family dwelling are those things that are needed understood so I I'll just go briefly through what the evidence that
we found in terms of looking through the records and of course going back to 195 56 were going on almost a century so the records were a little SAR sometimes but uh we did find um a couple of different uh ads in The Courier Post and Maple
Shade progress stating back as early as 1941 asking uh offering the apartments for rent um on site and the most compelling thing we thought was the 1950 sensus which actually lists four units at 33 um McCrae Lane and I do have
copies of all of these things but were submitted as part of of our application as well but I do have extra copies here if the board wants to look at them uh but again the the most compelling item is that 1950 the board may not need that but our attorney will no certainly so this is that we other just
find because I'm going to ask him to look at that and see if that qualifies absolutely and again it was part of our initial application so what I'm just going to do is well it's evidence it's up to the board what how much credibility they attach to
it that's all I mean he's submitting documents to show that it was a four unit going way back and this is one of his pieces of evidence and up to the board whether
they sort of think that it's it's valid all where does it say it's four units on mean take a look I'm sorry to hear you think 1956 was almost 100 years ago cuz I was born before
19 me too um actually I think can I I think one of my my topics is one I don't we give a moment for it to be passed around I one question give us a moment here to let
this pass around first okay there should be a bunch of them there it's for everybody oh no no we have them we're going that way Mike just give it a chance to get that everybody have that in their hand and for those who have it actually
you know what I'll I'll wait let's make sure everybody has a c new map is in our packet it is it's very small okay so before we continue Pete um Mike you
had a question you're saying in 1950 when this thing was built or whatever and then your records show that it was always a for yes as we move through the the history it looks so we have a couple of
different two question yeah sure and second what do you are you going to rent it out or are you going to keep it as one family it was never one family that's one of the things we're asserting is that it was never it was always multif family it was built uh some time ago but since at least 1940 it's being
rented it's was rented out as multi family so I misunderstood you I apologize okay no no problem like it's in a single family residential Zone but they're using it presently as a multifam use there is no resolution on record in
Maple Shade saying it should be that so they have to prove that it existed as such prior to Zone assessment so in the towards the center of the page you'll see um there's about a couple of little
groupings of boxes if you go to the third one down it's on the left you'll see the the number on the street name it says McCrae lane and then it has the number 33 you see that there then it lists four separate units
in connection with 33 MC Lane the first unit is owned by Margaret freck who's listed as the head of the household the fourth unit is listed as owned by Harold paraly who is the head of the household and then the other two units
while lives in the lives in the UN yes okay it's but I'm just the way it reads it says head their role in the household says and then the other two units um it lists that no one was home but the other two units they exist but so for Harold it still says
he's the head of the household yes if you look to the right it says it right next to his name Harold Farmland so Margaret what is Margaret she's ahead Margaret is the again it breaks it up into four separate units she's the head of the household and the
unit that she owns and so how Harold and Margaret are the head of the household of their own separate units yes yeah but it's one house it's not four houses so and there's no home no one in the other three units well it
says no one was home doesn't necessarily mean that no one lives there but they were broken up into four separate units okay okay if there are no questions on that we'll go forward with what else you have
um we also have and again these these items were in our packet we it go all the way up to about 1963 uh we did note that there was a separate ad for the renting of an apartment in the um I believe it was the yes the maple shap progress and then we
also attached a property report card dated December 4th of 1982 um indicating that the property is is a quadplex and the tax records reflect that as well and again I I do realize that we're going prior to 1956 but the other thing we we wanted to demonstrate is that not only was it a
multif family 4unit house prior to 1956 but it continued to be so up to and through the present day um and actually our planner Mr Kyle um is going to provide some testimony relative to that and of course uh Mr Evans is here to answer any questions that the board has
about his use of the home the history of the home um and things like that so Jim very quickly introduce yourself um describe your qualifications and we'll take it from there sure James Kyle I'm with the firm Kyle MC Manis Associates in Hope New Jersey I've been a
practicing planner for over 25 years um currently serve a number of municipalities roughly 24 as their Consulting planner so like Mr Turk I would come sit with my board and provide them advice I've been qualified as an expert in Planning by over 240 boards in
the state I think the last time I was here I'm going to say it was probably four or five years ago um remember Dollar General that I was here for I can't remember the exact case but either way um I'm licensed by the state as a professional planner I'm also a member
of the American Institute of certified planners with that we would submit uh Mr Kyle as an expert in the field of profession thank you Mr it k y l e correct thank you so um the reason we're here before the board this evening is as
Pete had said was the notice violation so the municipal land use law in section 68 has a provision uh entitled non-conforming structures and uses and what that says is any non-conforming use structure existing at the time of passage of an ordinance may be continued
on the lot or in the structure so occupied and any such structure may be restored or repair in the event of partial destruction thereof um the township ordinance also at 20571 a has a similar provision that states any lawful use of a building or
land existing at the effective date of this chapter may be continued although such use does not conf fored to the provisions of this chapter so it's important to note um New Jersey Supreme Court and it was ruling a case called Urban V planning board uh noted that
non-conforming uses rights run with the land so even a change of ownership over time doesn't affect the ability of that use to continue you know in perpetuity so it's essentially blind to ownership as to the continuation of the use our burden is to establish that the use
legally existed oh do you need this closer our burden is to establish that the use legally existed at the time the ordinance was put in place so really the time frame that we're talking about here the Township's first ordinance was adopted in 1956
so we've kind of put together a package of evidence that that we feel demonstrates that the use existed well before the ordinance was established in 56 uh it also shows that the use has been continuous throughout that entire time and I'll kind of go through a
little bit of it we presented some of it um so we have the newspaper at so this this house was built in 1896 you know if you've been by it I'm sure you've seen it it's it's a big house it's a full three story kind of Victorian um and what the evidence shows
in the newspaper ads you know starting in 1940 was the offering of units within this building for rent and it specifically says Maple Shade 33 McCrae Lane and what you see over time from 1940 you know 43 44 uh into the 60s was
the offering of various units within this building for rent and newspaper ads um we brought I brought the floor plan it was submitted um with the application but it's essentially we have a on the first floor it's a three-bedroom unit uh
it has a kitchen dining room living room uh two full baths and then a play area and then on the second floor uh there are two units they are single bedroom units uh both with full baths both both with kitchens both with
living rooms and then the fourth unit is on the third floor and that is a three-bedroom uh playroom one full bath kitchen and living room so that and that's essentially how the unit had been broken up
originally and and you know the things that kind of want to point to that and Mr Evans has been in the obviously he's owned it for the last 20 years um a lot of the construction that you see within there where the partitions were created you know particularly between the two
units on the second floor is all laugh and plaster construction so anybody that works in construction or you know if you think about building materials in in you know kind of the middle of the century essentially we started using drywall in you know the 60s so we weren't using LA
and plaster at that point so a lot of the construction materials that went into the units kind of point to this as well that it was done at a very early period um so the newspaper ads show that there were clearly Apartments here for rent at that
time I think the Census Data to me is um you know very conclusive when you look you know so nowadays you get a form in the mail you might log onto the internet and fill out your census form or you might fill it out and mail it back at this time census taker literally went
door too and knocked on your door and they said okay who lives here what's your name you know and it's very clearly documented here in this census form um and what it shows as we said was there three separate excuse me four separate listings for 33 McCrae Lane uh it lists
the two head of household Margaret freck in one and Harold parck in the other and then clearly states that no one was home in the other two units so the fact that they made four separate entries you know indicates that there were four separate units there yes it's it's one structure um and you can you
can just see by the nature of the other entries here that each has an individual it's you know one number and then it might list all the people that were living in that household so I think this is pretty very quickly Jim start interrup it actually does so on 33
McCrae under Harold uh pac's name doesn't it it lists his wife there does it it does yeah yep so and head is just head of household is a sense term um you can be a single person and you're the head of a household so it it would note
the head of household and you know that's something that's been embedded in the census data for for decades so um so I think this is pretty conclusive that at the time the census was taken in April of 1950 there were four individual units there
so the you know the real issue in my mind is you know the township didn't have its first zoning ordinance until um 1956 I think what this evidence shows is clearly that the the four units existed even if we just take the census
information in 19506 years before the ordinance was adopted it clearly documents the fact that there were four units there now as we go through time um we have so I spoke with um a woman named Maryanne who lived next door to this
property and she moved in in 1978 moved out and 2023 and it was interesting because she said that her husband was in real estate at the time that they bought their property here in Mapleshade and you know he was kind of acutely aware of the fact
that it was a multi-unit building when they moved in and she said yeah you know we were looking at it and kind of wondered if it was going to be okay but you know decided to take a chance because we really you know wanted to live here um you know ultimately she said um it you know there were never
really any issues um from her perspective but it was very clear to her that when they moved in there in 78 that was a 4unit multif family building that they were living next door to um so that kind of fills in some of the Gap you know 78 you know clearly all the way
through the present time the other thing is if you look at the 1987 uh assessment record I don't know if the the township went through a reval in ' 87 but there was a very detailed description of the property that was prepared and some value associated with it and it says very clearly on that form
an 87 that it was a 4unit building and and I think we did submit that um yes just for the so the vo is where all of this was submitted in connection with our application I have those latter two items though occurred after 1956 so they did but again we're one thing we're obligated to demonstrate is not only
that it existed prior to 1956 but that it continued to do so correct up to the present day right and if it didn't have Approval Pro prior to 1956 that continuation doesn't mean anything really it well the the the significance
of that 1956 date is that prior to that date it didn't require that approval in which case once the ordinance was adopted in 56 assuming exist if it's established that it did exist prior to 1956 yeah you don't really need the continuation because it is what it is
well no you need both they're proving that it wasn't abandoned that it didn't okay in the inter room become a single fing it didn't change back trust me I I wish I could just say it existed part of 1956 I'm done we also have to demonstrate that there was no abandonment that it
continued to do so up through the presentation okay yep um so and then as as we kind of get through you know after 87 clearly that assessment noted four units Mr Evans purchases the property from another owner in in
2005 um at that time when he took possession of it it you know he's testifying here under oath that it was a 4unit building uh it was registered with the Department of Community Affairs at that point um and the certificate of registration was dated June
2007 and they um that notes four units and then there was a certificate of inspection by DCA um anytime you have four or more units it's kind of put into a different uh framework and the DCA takes jurisdiction over that so they conduct specific
inspections uh consistent with their rules and one of them was was done in uh 2019 when they issued a certificate of inspection clearly on that inspection form it says four units so I think what we have is is a demonstration that the
use predated the Township's first ordinance in 56 you know the evidence that we presented throughout time shows that it was used continuously from that time in the early 40s up until present day as a 4unit building um and that's really what
our burden is and and I you know again it's kind of key that we show you that it you know it didn't change use at any point during that time and that it was used continuously and was not abandoned there may have been you know a month when a unit was vacant because you know
tenant moves out they were trying to rent it and you see that in the newspaper ads in the 40s and 50s and 60s uh but it was never you know legally abandoned as as a non-conforming use and very quickly just Dean me and Mr Kyle
presented a lot of facts to the board some of which um I don't know think you mentioned yourself so just for the sake of the record everything that both Jim and said and I had said you've been sitting here to my right the whole time correct Yes you heard what we said yes was everything that we said true and
accurate to the best of your knowledge yes now you've a lot of these newspaper the newspaper clippings that we presented again dating back to 1941 the Sens the census I don't know if that's census is I there's two of them I don't know that's even plural of the
English literature major in he is crying right now um from 1940 and 1950 all of those documents that we found dating up there 1963 you found those documents correct correct can you describe briefly how you came across those documents and where you located I located them at the
Burlington Library County Library out on Wood Lane Road I believe it is on microfish and uh the ones from 40 41 1 42 and 44 were found there the ones uh
in 1960 were The Courier Post online there are some some there um the only thing you know I uh went through and there was a um in 1941 it stated new three-bedroom
or three room apartment third floor so I'm assuming that's when the conversion took place somewhere around 40 41 because it said no said it was three rooms with a bathroom um and that was just on the third floor correct that was the third
floor the house is broken up the third floor I could tell the number of rooms that tells me it was the third floor in 44 they advertised a thre room um apartment that's one of the second
floors both second floor Apartments are three rooms a bedroom a bathroom and a kitchen so that would be the second floor and then the first floor I believe the owner lived there as
their resident which I believe they bought in 1938 or 39 and when you purchase the property5 um excuse me a second so it was owner occupied when
one apartment was occupied I believe in 39 and did that change throughout that continuation where an owner occupied that um I do not know do you did you ever live there yes I do okay for how long
and when on and off for a decade okay and what were the years that you liveed there uh 05 06 probably into
134 um I was a commercial truck driver so I wasn't home a lot so you know my life was a little spliced up so what I'm hearing Pete and maybe I'm over interpreting this but if there is a head of household
at the censes level and Mr Mr Evans lived there as an owner it would seem that that continual use had an ownership component to it in addition to having
the three other units would you agree to that uh I I if I'm understanding you correctly and I'm not sure that I am I I mean I I don't think I would argue with you in the sense that okay at certain points Mr Evans as the owner of property
lived in one of the units I don't know that that necessarily at any point abandons the use as a multif family if at that time the other units were being rented by him Andor the other owners no but the character of it is that an owner
lives there as opposed to just four tenants and as you know when there's an absentee ownership things can happen to a property that don't happen when an owner lives there so I'm trying to see if that is the case here I'm not sure what the
what you're trying to what the question is there okay we'll just let that go until later no I'll let you think about that I'm I'm please I'm just I'm I don't think I'm understanding it because you said there's I'm saying that a a property that is owned by someone yes it
is taken care of in a certain way if a property is rented out it's taken care of a lot of times in another way so what I'm hearing is if in the consensus or the senses that you
presented that there were head of households there which connotes ownership it does not it actually does not and Mr Evans says he lived there in present time so he there's an ownership
present there and I don't know if you're trying to put before this board where that 4unit building dwelling can use as four Apartments without an ownership presence I think the real question
really revolves around multif family if the owner lives there at any point in time but the other units are being rented out there are still four families whether it's a single person or you know spouses children whatever it is that
still con constitutes multif family in the legal sense and that it's four different people but if you're looking at the continuation of a use as it was used and if it was used with an ownership Pres while the other three units of the four units were rented out is that the
continual use you're looking for now oh is that how we continue we intend to continue to operate yes yes yes we continue you intend to continue to operate it as an owner occupied 4unit
dwelling not necessarily owner occupied I don't know that Mr Evans lives there anymore but a four unit dwell but that continuation of use he did live there for a decade you said right yes but I don't know if prior owners and you're
connecting him to the census that had head of households living there so it seemed to me that if you're dating it back to that time that there's an ownership Presence at a property and I don't know if the
interpretation you're putting before the board is that you would like it to continue as it has been used which in my hearing is it's been used as an owner occupied for dwell for unit one the request that
we're asking and I'm understanding you now is not necessarily owner occupied what we're asking is that it remain a multif family 4unit apartment in which of course the owner is welcome to live in one of them should hear she choose to do so and in my mind that changes what
you presented but maybe I'm the only guy that thinks that way I better say something here I agree with your philosophy but there's there are recent cases in court that seem to
think that you can't require you can't make it a condition of a multif family apartments that the owner occupy one of the units I understand that but I'm not
saying now he's asking for the continuance of use as an interpretation okay if he did not get the continuance of use interpretation he can then apply for a variance and at that point we
cannot impose an owner occupied condition what I'm saying is courts do not consider who who who is occupying the property is not a judgment that the court thinks
makes any difference whether it's the owner or a tenant because the I unfortunately I didn't bring this case with me but I just regret it recently that that the courts believe that there is no
difference between a owner occupant and a tenant occupant I think that's naive famar that as a condition of use with somebody presenting a u request for a variance for a multi
family home that's not before us right now no it's not but what I think I and correct me if I'm wrong I'm not trying to put words in your mouth is the the question essentially that because at some point an owner occupied the units
whether was in 1950 or now that is the use that any any so essentially a time when an owner would not be occupying are you saying would con potentially constitute an abandonment I'm again I'm not trying to
no no abandonment I'm looking for continuation as all Mr chairman could I just sure just maybe I can help a little bit because I'm thinking the definition of head of household you're there's may be a perception that head of household is an owner but there
was something mentioned earlier that head of household means the head of that unit or that apartment is that correct I think so and Jim you were you were G to talk about that versus the ownership does that site or lead to lead someone to believe that that means the head of
household is the owner of the property or yeah the head of household is a census term for for the person that has Chief responsibility for a you know family or a unit a head of household can be a single person that lives in a unit
it's not it's not IND I ative of ownership or you know anything like that so it it's just a a term that the census uses to designate the person that's primarily responsible for the household and the and the reason we submitted the census was not to indicate that there
were four heads of household necessarily of course that is true that there were four separate units requiring a different head of household I think that's kind of the the distinction we're trying to make I get the the four units okay okay what I'm not getting is
is whether Mr Evans as a owner of that unit and you're asking for a continuation now you're not asking for a variance that's not before us right now you're just asking for the fact that this board says yes you already existed as a four unit apartment yes that's what
you're asking for yes and Mr Evans lived in there for 10 decade or 10 years so I'm saying is that part of what you're asking that it be a dwelling of four units that has an owner occupying one of
those units I think the answer is no no okay so we're we're just documenting the fact that four units existed requesting that the board certify that that predated zoning ordinance and can can continue um and and I agree with Mr Kingsbury kind of along the lines of the
of the case you were saying um government has no ability to regulate tenure now it does happen in certain situations ations with affordable housing you know Fred knows this you might the town might make a deal with a developer and say we want you to build rental units and the developer will
agree to do it but the town can't mandate that a unit either be an owner occupied unit or or a rental unit I'm just that you're asking for continuance I want to know what is continu simp what are you saying it should be continu just simply the
continuance of four units so uh Mr Evans do you visit the property on on a regular basis yes what yes you do daily if not okay my uh I have mail that comes there
I there are six mailbox I get some mail there I return mail to Return to Sender in one of the mailboxes I inspect the uh basement I see some straining in the general public hearing you could can you
pull that microphone closer to you please got a soft voice I'm just nervous um I do visit on a regular basis I was there today I was there two days ago uh
okay yes I want to Big you back off for your questions you have to have patience with me because you're intelligent people and I'm an oldo when was the house actually purchase what year December of
20 or 2005 when was the house built 1896 I believe okay 1896 the home was board was built was built told
you you said that you liveed there in 2005 bought it in 200 you bought it in 2005 December of 2005 and the house was when was the house actually first made into a
multi to my knowledge according to newspaper articles I've read in I dug up somewhere in 1941 that's when was first meeting well that they were
advertising as far as we could tell they were in again this is in one of the exhibits that we presented the first evidence that we can find we're not necessarily saying that it happened in 1941 it might have been sooner but 1941 a clipping uh just to kind of I just
want to be accurate for the sake of the record there is a clipping in The Courier Post that again this was submitted as part of our application from Saturday October 4th 1941 it says Maple Shade 33 McCrae Lane
New rooms and bath garage adults only no pets so 1941 was the first time there's any indic it says new and there's any indication that the rooms are being rented so it appears to have been around that time doing your
investigation was there any permits ever ordered or received for this reconstruction I did an o report and they can't go past like 1980 yeah they record simply didn't go
back that far all right I oh okay and I'll be honest at the time um you know the township didn't have a zoning ordinance in place that that's not necessarily related to construction standards but it's completely plausible that you didn't need a permit you know
back in 1941 people think that we to Day by the way I I understand that how I make a living you know it it could be with in the context of not having any zoning requirements you had conform to most I think the earliest zoning ordinance in New Jersey was in
the 50s so yours was almost one of the first but prior to that there was really no framework that allowed a town to adopt a zoning ordinance that kind of came in later then you started seeing a bunch of towns in the 50s you know a lot of towns that I work in didn't adopt the
zoning wance until you know 70s um so it's completely plausible that there weren't any requirements for for for permits you know to exist at that time kind of just do which was almost
like the wild west okay you have more to present before I call on well yeah just very quickly and what we're essentially positing in connection with that is that the reason you don't see any approvals relative to the use from that point forward is because it was a pre-existing
non-conformity and continues to be today and with that I I would conclude um I would just if if it's and of course it's the board's prerogative and I defer to Mr Kingsbury um I think it would make sense we vote I think we vote on the certific certification first and then if that's of course then we can move
forward to the variance if necessary Frank Mr chairman unless we get through this phas there's really nothing I can offer other than uh obviously there's things to say about the property the conditions and the reason it came to somebody's attention
uh the six mailboxes all that but we're hearing a lot of testimony and interesting you know that brington County library has information going back to and I think that's pretty indicative of what what was going on at the time I almost being the age of that
I almost think did that really exist you know this is this made up but but these are facts and they're being presented to us as testimony okay so while the board members are thinking over what else they would like to comment on I'm going to open up this
application to the general public this is a application to interpret whether the 33 McCrae Lane property preexisted not whether it needs a
variance at this time anybody in the general public who would like to speak for or against this application I see two hands so I'm going to ask you gentlemen to take a seat in the general public area yes
[Music] please you leave your please step forward may I approach yes may I sit you can thank you and you can raise your right hand too good evening I shall I think I know you I think I know
you as well Mr affirm it say testimony you give will be the truth all truth nothing but truth so I forgot so I do swear and your name your name sir my name is Richard michelon and I have somewhat of a
statement because there are a number of things I wanted to bring to the board's attention um so um I'll paraphrase it and I did a little bit of research for whatever it's worth so uh 40 years ago in 1985
my wife Sandy and I purchased and moved into the old original Farmhouse of Maple Shade built in 1769 and strictly for the purposes of uh of to show you what that street looks
like if you're not already familiar with it it's a very elegant Street um this is a this is a picture um and I didn't build it I'm just visiting um so uh but I'm proud to
say that that's the old original farmhouse in which my wife and I are honored to live what's the address of it that's 55 McCrae Lane cor and there's a number of other houses on that block
that are very elegant uh including one occupied directly next door by Lindsay Baker who will also testify committ so it's uh my house our house
and then Miss Baker's house and then the subject property 30 33 so uh my our house sits on one acre of property totally fenced we're two houses east of the subject property we're at the top of the hill I got the
200t letter I'm retired uh I retired um although I'm still licensed I retired after practicing law for 52 years and um so I'm in and out quite often during the day uh running erns
going here and there uh I've never seen that gentleman but once I think and not within the past number of years that doesn't mean he doesn't come and go um but I you know you'll find I think that Mrs Baker hasn't seen him either but
once and that's when they were trying to clean up the backyard within the past month so back in ' 85 when we bought our home uh 33 was owner occupied and I was on hi how you doing
how are you basis with the with the neighbors it was a husband and wife but um I don't think I've ever been inside until the house went up for sale but she I did speak with her a number of times and she would tell me about what's going on there and we would
tell her about what's going on at our house because we were renovating um and to my recollection well it doesn't even matter what she said uh when I looked at the property when I went up for sale um my wife and I
and then she came back with her mother who was interested in purchasing it and my recollection is that it was not four units it was three that there was the first flooor that the owner who I had known um lived in with
her husband and then the second floor had two units and the third floor was not occupied by the way I'd be interested to see what the with the multiple listing ads for the property said um because I
did a little bit of research and ran I have dates that this property was was sold so let me you pass some copies it's a little difficult to read they they are copies of what copies
of something I printed out from New Jersey njparcels.com an opportunity for them to pass yeah out to everyone do you have a copy from one of the applicants attor oh yes okay uh
there should be an extra there yeah but I don't think we have enough I'll share I have more you have more yeah okay robt I'll let you look at that I need here's a couple more okay thank
you are we short well I'm going to share mine just pass that Robert and I will share one more have two okay oh you got one more GI that keeps on
giving so if you on the back um it says two of three on the bottom page three I didn't print it's just a it's just advertising but the furthest back I could find referring to the back of this yes furthest back I could find
is they don't have it back oh darn sorry some don't have back some do so why don't you read why don't you read into record I like some Robert you have a back you don't have a back that's
okay in my haste that's okay go ahead apologies does yours have a back okay um so on the back this far this back I could go was 1996 and it shows the sale price was
$155,000 which is irrelevant class it says residential uh as far as addresses are concerned the seller did not live at the property but at a Mount Laurel address that's 1996
the next sale is in 1999 number two and that's December 6 1999 sold for a dollar it says quote nonusable sale for
assessment nonusable sale for assessment buyer and the seller were at the same 33 McCrae Lane address the next sale was almost a year year uh one day less than a year later where the buyer lived
in moristown the seller lived at 33 McCrae and it says nonusable sale for assessment again and it says changed to
apartment so first one in 1996 under class says res residential and then 99 doesn't say then in 2000 changed to apartment then the
fourth sale which starts on the front was 124 2006 perhaps that's the date that the gentleman that testified was referring to as to when it was purchased um unless I just missed something and wasn't listed in here but
this is December 4 2006 and again it says and those that have just the one page nonusable sale for assessment and then it's changed back to
residential so it starts off as residential then it's changed to apartment then it's changed back item number four to residential and the buyer and seller are living at the same
address so I'm not quite sure what that means um but I'm just presenting what am I allowed to comment Mr chairman yeah um I am familiar with this website my understanding could you get closer to that microphone thank
you hello um can you hear me now okay how's that I am familiar with this website um I'm actually involved in a lot of research that involves this sort of thing um from my understanding this is not an actual Government website this is
actually data pulled from various websites on the internet so I think that's kind of important for the board to understand about the data that we're seeing here um it's notoriously Incorrect and inaccurate and not always up toate on what's currently the situation so just want to keep that in
mind it's not an actual Government website okay thank you you're welcome but you know it's i' again I'd like to see what the multiple listings say for the the sales when assuming they were on these dates
I don't know we're on about around those dates um or even the multiple listing for when uh the gentleman the applicant purchased it but I'd also like to present some additional information not
related to the sale uh or how it's listed but to the condition of the property and how it's been maintained we not I don't know if you want to hear that now or you can you can put on on your testimony
anything you want to okay so at some point and I'm not sure which which uh which owner or if it was I think it was this gentleman subsequent to his purchase he it was repainted
um and they were using or the man was using a crane to paint the house so must have taken him over at least a year to paint the house and the crane was in the front
yard um and it was in the side yard and it was in the backyard and he just left it it was left in the front yard then it was moved then it was then he put it back there so it didn't seem like it was
being used for quite some period of time I can't tell you exactly how long but the painting was all finished and it was just sitting there in the yard and I don't mean the backyard like the side yard or the front yard so one day I was discussing this
with my neighbor Craig forche who lives in between our property and that property uh now owned and resided by Lindsay Baker by the way Craig forche was never into real estate he was a
printer um and we were close friends with Craig and maryan so I was discussing the crane with Craig and obviously it was more troubling to him he was discussing it with me uh but
can we do about it and he said he was somewhat friendly with the neighbor because the neighbor uh would come and go so he knew the neighor who he said was Dean so I said um ask Dean to move the crane please so
he reported back to me that Dean told him he was planning on moving it when he could find a place for it apparently he was in some business where he owned the crane 6 months went by at least and the cran still there so I didn't know Dean
so I asked Craig if he would tell Dean that if he doesn't move the crane within a week I was going to file a complaint with the township he moved the crane then he brought it back within what seemed a couple of
weeks again I asked Craig to remind him but this time he didn't move it he just got a piece of fence and just leaned it in front of the the the crane now is in the sidey yard where it is
today um for well over 20 years so he put a piece of fence is this relevant to what we're discussing as far as the continuance I don't think so yeah uh does the crane have anything to do whether or not this home is a multif
family I don't know well that's what that's what we I just want to tell you what going on not good you ask if you could say some things about the condition of the property right so if you could recap what you want to say with regard to that
because well there's a crane that's been in the sidey yard for over 20 years that has a fence in front of it that's just leaning against the crane it's an
eyesore uh especially for Lindsay Baker who will Who will testify I have pictures that I'd like to give the board Mr chairman these would be relevant I think this is uh it it
concerns you but the issue before the board is not whether we want to turn this property into a pre-exist or into a two multi family dwelling the issue before the board is is it a pre-existing
use so if the board should decide that it is we have no right to put any conditions on its use because it already exists as it is proposed to
exist okay the only thing we can do in those kind of conditions is ask turn our decision over to the township management for them to do code enforcement that's the only thing we can do okay may I give
a copy of this then to gentleman yes you can if I Mr Kings um at this point I'm going to formally object this well based on the relevance of these items simply because as the board had mentioned but I just you get to the microphone please oh I'm
sorry so I just want to log a formal objection to to the testimony of of um excuse me what your name again Richard Michaelson Richard Mr Michaelson uh as it relates to the condition of the property simply because again I I I don't know that that's relevant to the the first question that we're asking
here um so I would just ask that um as it relates to that particular item that not be under consideration again we're just really talk it will not okay um and I in that he is a neighbor I just wanted him to get an opportunity of saying some things agre yeah and that's why I I I
was my instinct was to object almost right away but I said you know what this is let people talk and to shut them down yes I agree thank you may I say one more thing sure when it was owner occupied it was
fine now someone said something is the expression Wild West now it's the wild west can I can I interrupt you on your statements is there anything unsafe about that property yes well you can't make that
judgment that's why it's turned over to law to enforcement it's it's turned over F inspector could be over there the fire inspector could be over there but we can't we can't instruct that if if we decide that this condition
pre-existed all this board can do is give a certificate of pre-existence and turn our decision over to the township management who will then instruct the appropriate Department to do whatever they they
do because we're not taking responsibility for how that property exist either in sanitary or safety conditions we're just saying it existed before the
board had a chance to uh review that doc that property so may I answer the gentleman's question sure they have loud parties in the backyard and at
least what and at least six times a year I would say they have huge bonfires okay Mr Michael that's the unsafe part Mr Michaelson we're only going to receive more objections okay okay okay all right is there anyone else in the general public who would like to
speak forward thank you please name please Lind Baker Joseph lindsy Baker Baker Joseph J o e p
a y t j o s e p a y p t t again T is Lindsay please have a seat you swear or affirm the testimony you give will be the truthful truth nothing but truth something we got do go ahead hi everyone um I'm a fairly recent
uh resident of Maple Shade I moved in about 18 months ago at at the house next door at 41 McCrae Lane um I will say that most of what I would like to say isn't necessarily in Contin in the continuation of the property as it is um
what I will say is we talked a little about absentee owner um and continuation of it as an owner operated property um I have only seen um the gentleman the owner one time I met him one time over the summer um other than that I can't
state that I've seen him there if he has been it certainly isn't inspecting the property or looking at the property maintaining the property um I think what my other neighbors showed is there is a lack of care for the property I know that's not what we're talking about
right now um but it's it's unfortunate in the neighborhood we live in um that that is not being taken care of so again this is not what we're talking about but I do want to make it clear that the um owner is not there in my opinion on a
regular basis to maintain the property as a multif family property so I would have more to say if we talk about the variant and if condition right I'm saying if that were to come up the condition of the property I would have more to elaborate on but I do not want
to take any more time or cause an OB jection but just to state that my experience with him being on the property is that so Lindy thank you yeah thank you okay I'm call the applicant back up
please we going close the public portion of the meeting and make a statement to begin with number one your objections is taken into account the board I think understands
that the only thing before us at this time is whether the property is to continue as you have proposed it to be and that is a multif family dwelling so do you have any concluding comments um I did I was simply going to
comment on the the the records that we provided again certified records from newspaper clippings the census in terms of the The credibility as compared to NJ par.com but um Miss ree said it much more eloquently than I could so I'll leave it at that in terms of the The
credibility of njparcels.com so I'll rest uh and of course you know if we have to get to the variance item we'll go for so I just want to say to you that it is the normal course of events when an item appears on the agenda that
board members drive by that property and take a look at it if this were to go into you requesting a variance because it was interpreted that you don't have a pre-existing non-conforming use then
those issues would come up if it is interpreted that you do have a pre-existing nonconforming use then this board is obligated to turn our decision over to the township management and then
they do whatever they do okay okay are there any further comments I know that I know that Mr Michaelson was interested in um the multiple listing when Mr Evans bought the
property uh I have that in front of me because I am a realer by the way so I have access I have access to the multile listing system uh when Mr Evans bought the property it was
advertised as being four units was advertised that way uh the size of the property is uh massive I mean it's 4,95 Square fet so it's a very very large
home uh and of course I'm talking about 2005 in December of 2005 also I went into the public record and I don't know how much weight a County record
has in terms of the law but the county record does indicate that this particular property uh is a quadplex so that's all I can say it's factual it's in writing but I don't know
how much weight a County record has at that point but like I said this is only 2005 so you know going back further is what we really need Joanne thank you do you have anything of us before I
ask the board for a motion no again I I would agree um with um board member U mortimer's comments that yes those items only go back so far which is again why we pres and I'm repeating myself a bit here but I just want to make sure that the board is clear the record is clear
that that's why we I would have loved to have been able to stop there trust me and when my client realized that he could not that was why he went to the library found the census from 1940 indicating multiple units the census from 1950 indicating four units so and then when you add all of that up and
again there's a number of um newspaper advertisements for apartments throughout the 1950s 60s there's the tax record stating back I think the earliest one we found was 82 indicating that it was a quadplex throughout the time period there's a clear indication that this
property was multiple units and indeed four units and we would based on that we would respect request that the board grant our certification of a pre-existing nonconform along with that information I do have to say I've lived in Maple Shade all my life I mean McCrae
Lane is a beautiful Street yes and looking at the pictures back in 2005 the property was beautiful but when I went past that property um you know I was you know kind
of taken back about it I'll put it that again not before us right but people need to talk underst understand okay so what I'm asking now is uh for the board if they have no further
comments to make a motion is there a motion motion Dan what is that motion that motion would be to approve the property with a pre-existing condition that it was a
multif family dwelling is there a second I'll second second it l roll call please bet approved Daniel McDonald approved Laura
kii approved Bill Jara approved Joan Mortimer approved get approved Chen G approved your request for a pre-existing
nonconforming use certificate has been approved thank you understand that it is my obligation to turn this over to Township manager understood because we do not know if there's fire safety issues like they the prior application
the house gets inspected by the it I understand but it's still Our obligation to do it okay thank you all very much thank you appreciate it yes may I ask while the gentleman is
still under Ro when you you cannot ask anything about this application try this application has been concluded yeah we'll see somewhere okay under miscellaneous we have resolutions none
discussions multi-dwelling units letter to Township manager um we don't have that available do we yeah we can do that it's a explanation from the Robert King M okay I wrote a letter dated February 5
it's a draft has not been sent you want that reviewed I am looking to hear if the board wants me to send it or not oh okay so why don't you uh pass that out or do we have itone has
it I have it I would redate it of course if you want like this so you are to read it and to see if we should have Robert send it to Susan well it's certainly at Propel for tonight's
meeting true the date has to be changed on the uh you got 2026 inste 2025 no we application that's a yes it is so if everyone reads that letter I will
ask you if you would like to make a motion to adopt that letter I would like to make a motion to adopt it has everyone had a chance to read it I'll second motion motion to adopt by Karen R second by Joanne
Mortimer roll call please Michael Steves Mike Steves Stevens B approved Daniel McDonald approved Laura kii approved Bill JGA
approved Joy Mortimer approved Karen R approved chairman CH approved okay I'll send that tomorrow to Susan okay now the next item is the annual report next item on the agenda is a
2024 zba annual report review and comments right so I have presented this report to everyone into the email as well as in a paper copy in this meeting you can go through the reports and view how all application has been process how
the meeting went and at the end at the last page I have given the SE about the number of application approved number of application denied and withdrawn or any open application percentage I have given
so 60% application were approved 5% one application say denied one applicant he withdrawn say 5% and we have 30% say six applications open for the next year to be heard in this 2025 so any comments concern you can
email to me and if there is no concern or no comments found in the next uh zoning board meeting we will adopt this annual report okay and the purpose of the annual report is so you realize if we
get the same recurring items at every meeting that we would make a recommendation to council that they either consider changing the zoning rather than us seeing the same things over and over if there's a fence issue or a swimming pool issue and don't feel
we feel it inappropriate that would be a recommendation and this annual report would identify look this is what's going on everyone has it let's let's stop the the craziness so to speak so that that is the purpose of this report if we're
seeing recurring recurring recurring and I don't know if that's the case here I don't know that we see a lot of what we dealt with tonight yes that seems to be our primary issue in Maple sheet because it's become an Enforcement issue but uh I think Mr King bar has written a lot of
stuff here and I'll go through it all and we'll be talking about it it's very alarming actually both the cases that came tonight uh that people are actually living in in unsafe conditions potentially unsafe conditions yes
potentially yeah I'll play the lawyer for a minute potentially to make you feel better I'll call my G's AC he no we we we cannot oh okay instigate anything it has to go through the township manager he
works for the township manager well and the township manager then may send him out but we can't okay or we can't influence him to go outut it's the hand off is the township manager so based on the that's why we have a Township manager and she's pretty
good at it and based on this annual report you would have to evaluate is anything really standing out that we need to address and I think we are addressing the one issue that has come up in the last several years so um I just wanted to point that out that's the purpose of this and just to
follow up with that in Prior years we have made recommendations to the planning board who then approves it and sends it to council to change the code and we've done that in the pass okay so now we're down to it's only
9 o00 we can have it once a around who we going to start with let's start with we need to complete minut oh well minutes well okay I can have it once around before the minutes can
I but if if you would like to have the minutes approv first is there a motion to approve the minutes yes Mr Gay is there a second yes Karen all in favor signify by saying I I those oppos now
we're going to go to once around before adjourn for anything pretty good any order uh right now the township environment is very cloudy and all employees are under
pressure I hope everyone feels comfortable working in their job and uh we are expecting Council meet us and uh they can just address their thought so that way we understand what is their
requirements how they want to proceed since now last five years the group was different but in this year there is some divisions between the two and in that sense I would say if the council decide to meet up as early as possible with the
staff and express their concern that will help to the every employee and everyone even for the Talk of the Town also it becomes more simple other than that I would say you guys are great you are really helping good you are asking
very good questions I see the Improvement into the questions at the same time I see some certain things which are on record which we could not find but members are pulling out from the internet from their experience and
other things so it benefits to the board members in between each other as well as it benefits to the applicant to prepare for the future or Robert going to call thoughts into the meeting Mr chairman other than that I
say good luck to everyone Mr chairman before we go continue do we need to open this to the public again or no always a question do we need to open the meeting to the public for General comment um again Mr kingsburry walked out of the
room but in most hearings I'm at the last thing they do is open it to the public for General comments and I don't know if that's the case here we could do that when we're done our ones around good okay Dan welcome
aboard good to be here anything um um being my first night and being a little bit horse I'm going to pass on any comments you've been talking so much tonight look at that did you go to New
Orleans did I welcome D and I want to say something I am very proud of Maple Shade I watched our celebration the other night at Fort landing at Maine I wasn't there in person I watched it on
the neighbors thing what a nice thing I come from Philadelphia so I know what they do there what where you live at in Philly oh I don't I live here for 27 years but I come from there and I watched plenty
of cele there Northeast oh you're a rich kid you go here yeah kind of thank you but yes I was very proud of us welcome Dan nice to see you and yeah it was a great game and I hope everyone
got to watch it it was exciting and it's good to see everybody I haven't seen you guys since December uh one comment I have is that we have been trying to set up a work session or a training session for the
new members of the board not only zoning board but planing board all members all members and uh it has been decided or it has been suggested and I accepted that suggestion to have the zoning board
separate from the planning board because the manner in which they conduct their meetings and the topics that they may discuss could be different so rather than tie up one board listening to what another board does and what we're
looking for is you Fred and Robert to say when you would be available for a two-hour session hopefully a Saturday maybe 9: to 11: think about it and then we'll set that up with Susan
and whatever if I could just expand on that Mr the idea isn't to teach you how to do everything was more of a two-hour course a bird's eyee view of why we say certain things uh for this board where we don't
want to bore The Bard the planning board would be the variances the the six types of use variances then we could go through bulk variances where we get this information I just want everyone to know that we have a code and we have the different zones and what they mean and different standards so very basic stuff but just
so you understand uh a little more of where it all comes from I make up the things at the end because when somebody needs a variance and this I'll just keep it short when some needs a variance they're asking for help and we should ask for help back and
we shouldn't be afraid to ask for help ever because a variance is an exception and it's kind of a trading off of okay if we Grant you the exception are you going to and I'll step on my little stool here plant some trees and make the town look a little better and surprises
me but but that but that's what we want to just kind of relate to you and I'll bring our planner with us and we'll just go through almost a standard plan a typical Det DET and we'll review it with you and say this is what we look at this is what we look at this is what we look at and then you'll kind of look maybe
look at things a little differently um and it may be a little helpful uh to understand so sorry M good Robert I have no comments okay I'll do the training whatever you want okay is a Saturday good for you not this one no no
is a is a Saturday good for you in March I might go to have a spring training for for a weekend so I wouldn't want it to be that weekend is a Saturday good yes could you get with Fred and figure out what that Saturday is sure okay and then you'll let me know and we'll try to make
the new members available for you okay okay Bill uh well I wasn't able to make the meeting last last month but uh I'd like to uh welcome the new members uh this month uh welcome aboard and I just
like to say uh congratulations for the Eagles for crushing the Chiefs go Birds Joanne thank you for your real estate uh expertise yeah well I've sat through a few of these meetings now
where people have come before us with pre-existing moldable unit housing now like I said I've been in Maple Shade all my life and I could tell you right now there are many more of these
that exist within the township and I'm a Shader so I mean if people can come before us and give us enough information for us to approve the pre-existing then of course I'm all for
it however at the same time I am very elated at Mr Kingsbury's letter here all right because when we approve a pre-existing uh multiple unit place
there can be safety issues behind it uh that affect the tenants within that particular property they're affecting the neighbors within that particular neighborhood so like I said
I'm very elated with this letter that's being sent to the township manager and hopefully they will have a process to carry forward from here on it's not like we want to ignore the neighbors or the
tenants or the safety of those tenants within the multiple units well said J Robert good job thank you Mike no comment you how have you
know Beth um nothing I do agree um though that the uh letter by Mr King I think that was fabulous I think that's going to really breach the distance between what we can do and then what we can see happen for the betterment of everyone after it leaves our hands so I
think that'll be great and good wordss I'm glad you spoke up tonight thank you uh to uh notify the board of what's Jin and what's not yeah I think it's important that we get um of you know that the information that we get is fact
and it's and unfortunate part about the internet is there's so much information and much of it is very easily manipulated by users anyone can make an account and modify some of these websites so it's it's important for us to know when we're being presented with this to know the source yeah thank you
thank you FR I just like to add to what Joanne had mentioned um the impact on a neighborhood on the neighbors with multif family uh to me when you see multif family it's no longer really residential it becomes a
commercial property and that's when you need to look at lighting sanitation um safety parking because we know what the backyards turn into we know materials being stored we've all seen it uh and it's not just this
property that we heard potentially tonight but there's other properties we live near we're next to and they have that parked on the lawn they have this in the sidey yard they have this in the front yard so I think we maybe a few more standards when we get into multi family because it's rental
housing um now who would that be up to what the standards yeah Robert who would the standards be up to construction code official construction code official and and also I think this board could set
standards on this board can recommend anything right sure Varan takes other as agencies within the township to carry forward right and that goes back to what I mentioned earlier thank you Beth when someone's asking for that variance if you guys know there's a
crane or whatever is in the front yard that's when it goes away yeah the fence that's elevated off the ground it's leaning it's down 8ot fence well that's in violation of our ordinance so we can pick all those things up at that time but a few standards May or guidelines maybe maybe
help okay in my experience in the that in in connection to the Fred stock in my experience I have seen the other towns they are uh when they have such applications the construction officer code enforcement officer con uh and
Zoning officer they visit the property and they evaluate their all areas the construction officer will evaluate the building how it is situated how laid out how the floors are there Bo enforcement look about the information like
gentleman Express about the crane and other maintenance of the property and the zoning officer will review all the safety and circulation or the access of the in ESS of the property they prepare the list of the items what is required
or that is not compliant to the current and then they present it for the record into the application and that once the board evaluate those things applicant is obligated to discuss those item it terms what the construction officer has
demanded or requirement is that what is a Code Enforcement officer's requirement for that particular property and what is a zoning officer requirement that way it becomes easier for the board to approve for the safety and other aspect as well
as the uh board has opportunity to address to the applicant that these are the things you need to do and that helps a lot for the community surrounding properties and everything some it's a team effort really yeah and
some of the hardest answers you're going to give is no somebody who purchased we heard we've done that before somebody's purchased a home it was a twin turns out it wasn't a twin parking wasn't working because you know some of our yards are house to house uh and we've had to say
no in the past and it's not easy but it is the right thing to do so you know it's we just did that at site plan right where there was a request on univis to change a single family home into a duplex and it didn't have safety issues
to where they could accomplish that right and it goes back to when you look at a use is it appropriate that's what you would say is that appropriate and our code says the home has to be large enough that it's not consistent with the neighborhood well the property John and
I were seeing in site plan was actually smaller than the adjacent properties and and they wanted to make it into a duplex and the gentleman was very nice he says I I tried and he walked away it was I had to give it a try so okay I'm going to follow Fred's
suggestion and I'm open up the floor to General comments from the public anybody who would like to speak yes I would like to speak I'll make it quick no you won't yes
I want to thank you you don't know how to do that these come on up here let so we can hear you thank you all for your service on these boards you all know how important it is I served on these boards for more than
15 years first on uh on zoning and then on planning I'm always on site plan or most of those years and um so I appreciate I I know it comes from the heart I respect respectfully disagree with your decision tonight because as
many of you said if they were required to get a variant don't talk about it then can't we can't talk it's over with the applicant's not here we can't talk about an applic well you granted you already granted it so okay somebody might appeal
it so I don't want anything thank you so thank you to interfere with that uh by the way we have a Richard Michaelson rule on this board what is that and that is at one time when he was on zoning he didn't like the fact that I made a motion and I
was chairman so he made a rule and everybody agreed with it that the chairman cannot make a motion or second on an application that's why I get to you're a tiebreaker well that's a vote but I can't make a motion or a second on an
application and I'm the last to vote that is the Richard Michaelson r I don't remember that but now I remember it and he you also can't vote on minutes if you weren't at the meeting well that that's not a Richard
Michaels that's a Rob rolls of water okay Lindsay do you have anything no it was a pleasure thank you I don't like I think we're going to see this through it other ways so the young lady in the back of the room anything no just
neighbor I thought you were a repor or something so quiet so we need a motion to adjourn motion seconded by Beth made bye Mike all in favor signify by saying
I I those oppose thank you