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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=0l_i446m9oE

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[music] [music] [music] [music] Hello. [music] [music] [music] [music] Heat. [music] [music] Heat.

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Hey, hey, hey. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] >> Do you [music] feel Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music]

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[music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] >> Down. [music] [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

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[music] >> Come >> [music] [music] [music] >> on. [music] Come on. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

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[music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. N. [music] >> [music] >> Down. [music] [music]

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Hey. Hey. Hey. [music] committee is meeting at 7:01 p.m. Um, attending is uh the climate resilient council.

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>> Oh, anyway. um Mark Vital, Trey Fello, plus we have Priscilla and Ryder and Ted uh Scott uh representing the operations of the city. Um we are waiting for folks

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from Black Swan Labs to show up. Uh I think Aud I'm not sure if Karen's showing up, but Audreyy's showing up. She's the Did you guys see the prior? >> I did. I watched her. Okay. Okay. Um, so Audrey and Karen are from Black Swan

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Labs. Um, are you guys I I there's a lot of issues that are coming up. So, one of the things I want to get straightened out actually ahead of time is basically when the next meeting can be because I want to try to set up a meeting before

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the next city council meeting. Uh, looks like August 4th is available. Um maybe late the second week of August and then late the first week in September because of schedule constraints. >> Um what do you guys get? Are you guys

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available on August 4th? >> Trey asking me? >> Yeah, you and >> well again as I mentioned to you last night if we have if we're just exploring >> I'd rather not, >> you know, I don't want to just explore everything on the planet. I'd rather

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have a plan of action, >> right? So, so hopefully we find out from our experts. >> Yeah. No. >> Well, I think the other the other thing I wanted to talk about with um I was talking with the solicitor is um is it

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possible to do a referendum ballot on uh you know on the 2027 election and I want to discuss that within committee that that >> that would be on August 4th if that's okay with you guys.

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You good? Yes, Trey. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, August 4th can totally accommodate. I know September 1st I will definitely not be available. Um >> Oh, that week, right? >> That week I will likely be unavailable. Um >> Okay. >> That that Monday and and the

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>> Yeah, not the Monday, but later on. I mean, >> yeah. Yeah, the first what? Um but yeah. >> Gotcha. So, you're saying you would like to do something later the week cuz So, we we can talk about that kind of later on, but I will confirm August 4th. I'd be happy to focus will be here on August

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4th. We'll do that and then from there we'll >> figure August 4th. >> You cannot do August. >> Three appointments. >> Okay. >> Including the board of health which is I must be at the border of health. >> Okay. Uh what about uh the 5th which is the Wednesday?

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>> Wednesday morning. >> Mr. Chair. >> Yes sir. >> August 5th would be a bit of a difficult date for me. I think I could make it work should we need to. Um I do agree with councelor Vital though I think >> just also on the fourth I would like to know that counselors go to it as well

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but that's the first annual hopefully law enforcement national night out >> on what day? >> It's kind of the 4th. >> Oh >> starts at 4:00 goes until 8:00. >> No it starts at 5:00 and goes to 8:00. I put 4:00 to set up. >> Okay. >> So you know that's supposed to be a big

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kind of >> thing that the police department's doing. So hopefully us counselors will support that. Oh, absolutely. >> Um, so the fifth doesn't work. How about the sixth, >> Mr. Chair? >> Yes, sir. >> I I know I'll definitely be out that

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evening as well. Um, I'll be working, but um, you know, I I'd be happy to kind of figure out a date, you know, pursuant to this meeting tonight. I see see what we come up with, see what our next action steps are. Obviously, it sounds like we have some idea, right? A referendum question we need to discuss and we'll have more info. Right.

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>> What about the Monday night, Monday the 3rd? >> Depend again. Kind of depends on what time. I I'll be candid. Um I know I have a work event from 3:00 to 5:00 that that afternoon, but I I'm sure I could get back here in time for um >> 7:00 7:30. >> Yeah, for 7:00 7:30. I'm sure I can do

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that. >> Okay. So, let's let's right now assume it's going to be on the 3rd. Is that okay with you? >> Yeah, sure. >> Okay. And I'll confirm it. I'll confirm it with the uh city solicitor. make sure he can show up for that.

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Okay. Okay. Um so as far as new business goes, um there were two well two primary issues. The last two are kind of tied together. Um Katie Roby sent out um a

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link to a presentation about uh climate law and um I was looking up some of this information. This is just cut and pasted from the descriptions. So basically the states introducing a new climate law

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standard uh that everything needs to be permitted within a year. Um and it must be started by October 1st. So um there was a presentation that was done earlier. Did you see the presentation on this or is this

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Priscilla or >> Yeah, we saw this presentation. We've talked about it in site plan review. This is an optional option. So that the battery storage are allowed by the Dover amendment. So they're allowed anywhere

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in the community. What the state is trying to say is if if if a build builder wants to has to go through a bunch of different um boards to get approval, then they may want to do this consolidated process and get one

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permit instead of three or four. Sure. >> And so we're working with legal to figure out how how that sets up cuz you you want it to be in place in case somebody wants to use that, right? Um it may be that nobody uses it. It

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depends on, you know, whether it's to their advantage or not. Um we're pretty quick at giving permits, so it's not a big huge issue, but um >> so we're working on that and we're we're trying to figure out the the legalities.

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The state is still >> um figuring out some of the logistics on the safety aspects of what's required with battery storage. there is some fire issue that's related to them. Um we've had four or five companies come to the

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city already saying you know we're National Bridge has said they they need some some storage here in order to distribute. So we were already getting inquiries and we've all said the state still hasn't given us all the directions. So we're you know that it's it's a moving target um okay at the

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moment but we're definitely aware the site review committees reviewed it and >> thank you for the update though. It's much more than I expected to hear. >> There you go. >> Um, okay. I mean, the one thing that I noticed is, you know, uh, 25 megawatts of generation is like 5,000 solar panels

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or something stupid like that. I mean, some outrageous number of panels or something. Um, and then, uh, yeah, 100 megawatts of battery storage is, I think, multiple uh, uh, tractor trailer trailer, you know, trailer fulls of

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batteries and stuff. Um but okay if it thank you for the update for it being in process really >> and the bigger the bigger ones are going to be um issued by the state and the smaller ones are going to be issued by municipalities. So it's they have they have a tiered system.

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>> Okay. So anything above 25 megawws power generation still has to be done by the state. >> I believe I believe that's the case. I think the community still has some input but >> right >> it's um we're still figuring that all of that out. below 25 megawws is pretty much one process to to be done.

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>> It can be it can also just use existing system. It just just depends on what what what hurdles they have to go through and >> and we're we're expecting that by October we will have a system that's in place that if they

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choose to use that option um we have it ready. So, >> and you think you're going to be ready by October 1st? >> That's what we're working on. if that's what's required. >> Uh, best of luck with that. [laughter] Okay. Um,

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[clears throat] so the the second and third scenario, um, you you two were copied on the email that we got back from Black Swan Labs. Uh, basically the 30-in sewer man that goes under the

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sewer burr in front of countryside. um has the potential to if we can capture the thermal heat to heat and cool a significant amount of those units. And um basically

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the state has a whole bunch of uh grants and incentives to and they want to make this happen specifically because it's also um low-income housing affordability and everything. So, um

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I think that is a a microcosm of what my proposal has is trying to do. Um because basically you have the land owner who owns the building, owns the property. Uh the

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tenant is basically renting, you know, the building, you know, unit in the building. Um, and [clears throat] the opportunity is using state and federal grants plus, you know, we this the city can do tiffs to help

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fund this. Uh, so that at the end the landowner pays for a system to deliver thermal services to their tenants.

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and we or the city is the role basically the utility as a broker between the two. So you know whoever gen you know you you can have multiple situations where land you know land owners may have thermal

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exchange networks in place um either through geothermal wells or you know wastewater heat extraction um and then they sell it to the city as a middleman and then the city sells it to the actual

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tenants. And if the tenants are on the same property, it doesn't matter. It's still the same. If the tenants are a couple of, you know, lots further ahead, still doesn't matter. The the landlord is still making money. You know, um, in

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this case, because of affordable housing, you know, the the city the the state's providing a lot of incentives to do this. Last night after the city council meeting, I was talking to the developer on Forest Street that wanted to do the

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Forest Street extension and I said, "Would you guys be interested in developing a thermal exchange network to sell heating cooling to your clients?" You made it in. >> Congratulations. >> Can you sit in the well with these two?

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>> Okay, sure. >> Yes, you too. >> You answered enough questions yesterday. you deserve to be in here. So, Audrey, um Karen, that's Priscilla and Ted. >> Hi. Nice to meet you. >> Nice to meet you, too.

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>> I appreciate everyone being in the well for this. Um so what I was just doing is talking about um the thermal you know the potential of the thermal exchange project for um the Boston uh Boston

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postro east uh the um uh behind them no what's any the project >> the wastewater energy thing >> wastewater capture okay >> the the mass D wastewater energy

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recovery grant Yes. Okay. So, what is the process required to to put submit to that grant? Cuz you guys said that you'd be doing it through Black Swan Labs. Can you just do a >> Yeah, I can answer that. So, um >> and speak into the mic. >> Sure.

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>> So, the phase one is the feasibility study only, which is what you'd be starting with. Uh it's a $15,000 grant and a lot of it is very basic questions about your town, your organizational structure and the energy use of your sewer system right now like the flow

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rate, things like that. So basically sewer information um and then there's a project narrative um which we have we can help draft for you. We've done this for South Hadley where we answer questions about like what is sort of your vision for this project. um it does

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not have to be um extremely detailed because part of the feasibility study is figuring out what's possible. So it's really like a one to two page a couple of key questions of your organizational structure. Who are the key people and sort of your what what's your proposed project? And in this case we're

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proposing a feasibility study to explore this and where is it and who does it serve and things like that. It's so the first phase is a very relatively simple grant. nothing that your DPW or your sewer folks have not done many many times.

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>> Okay. >> I I don't even have all the questions that I can look forward to. Sure. One other quick thing is that um this is a little bit more nuance than probably necessary, but the D recognized that their the way they structured their grant application was a was not um

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differentiated enough for the three phases. And when we asked a lot of questions about just phase one, was that really necessary for just phase one applicants? They're like, you know what, we're going to we're going to kind of redo the phase one thing and we'll let we'll post it on our website. So, there's going to still be a little bit

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more revision, my guess making it even simpler. Um, but for now, we think we know the majority of the questions with possibly a few tweaks that'll come out in the next two weeks or so. So that so the actual definition of the feasibility is

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>> phase one >> phase one is to be determined another two weeks or so before >> the full the full um the full details of what the grant will require will be definitive in the next couple weeks. I do think we know the majority of it now

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but they might do a little nuance tweaked. >> Okay. Um, so one question I have, uh, I looked it up before, but when does the land owner get involved with this feasibility?

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>> You said the landlord, >> the land owner. Landlord, land owner. >> Um, so uh, we can, uh, tell them early on. I assume it's a the selected the site that looks like the best would be that affordable housing uh site on

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Boston Post Road, >> right? >> Um and uh so it would be good to approach them earlier rather than later to let them know about it and make sure that they're they're interested, but in general, most affordable housing uh tends to want to go towards uh clean

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energy and has a lot of uh mandates that they should do that. >> Right. just to add like I I think we could also be helpful there and maybe making a one pager of you know a narrative that would be attractive to make them excited about this because there's a huge amount of benefits and we

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can make it easy for you to articulate to that to them. >> I I think a oneep one page narrative would be really good. What were you going to say? >> Couple questions. Um both both the wastewater treatment facility and the um

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development that we're talking about is within my wood and the wastewater treatment plant is about a mile away from from Country Village and [clears throat] it took like I don't

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know 40 years to finalize Route 20 and get it to a to a position where it is able to go without going 20 miles an hour between potholes. Uh it's a great road right now and I can't see my

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constituents being too excited about digging up Route 20 to put in a pipe for Country Village. That's not going to go over well. >> The pipe is already there and goes through the front of the property so we can tap it within the property of Country Village. >> So there's no dig? No, the dig is on

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their property, >> not on the street. Okay. >> It would it would depend exactly where the sewer interceptor is, but if assuming it goes to the side of the road or uh you know that that's where the dig would be, but we'd have to learn more of where and potentially we know.

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>> Ted sewer interceptor in that location is off the road. >> Is that where the grinder is? >> It's in an easement. I assume it's in an easement. We'll find >> Is that Is that where the grinder is or is the grinder further uphill? What's that? >> It used to >> the grinder. I mean, there was this whole thing about the grinder that went

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on >> at the the pump stations. >> The pump station >> further west. >> Further west. It's f It is further west than that. Okay. Thank you for that. Appreciate that. Um, so [clears throat] okay.

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So basically some Okay. The question I have basically who reaches out to the land owner? Should I be the one? Should you guys like does you know >> happy to do whatever you think is better

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>> potentially both of us. >> Yeah. >> You know all three of us to be maybe. >> Yeah. Okay. Uh >> it might make sense just to have like a dedicated meeting to think that through and you know be really you know thoughtful and nuanced about it.

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>> Yeah. >> So >> yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, part of that is to figure out if if this is something we can start rolling today would be good. Yes. Ted, were you >> were you going to comment or you just

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trying to turn the mic? >> We don't have to be right on top of the mic. >> Yeah. >> Yes, sir. I have I have another concern. Um, the buildings there are 50 60 years old. I suspect they don't

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have a whole lot of infrastructure that you can put new piping in uh to each of their, you know, different apartments. >> That would all be within the property itself. And >> that's right. But I mean, that's still part of the project. >> That is still part of the project. Yep.

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And also basically I I actually know people who live in those projects or have lived in those projects. And the heating system is basically your classic um electric uh baseboard heat type thing, central heat like that. It's, you

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know, people spending 5 to 800 bucks heating a one room onebedroom apartment. So I think the opportunity here is huge for us to do it. >> Yeah. It depends on what kind of heating system they have. >> I'm sorry, what? >> It depends on what kind of heating

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system they have. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. And that that will you know but we we can find out. >> Yeah that's all electric heat. What I understand it's all electric heat like >> yeah and this this would radically lower their energy bills in comp their electric bills in comparison then if

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it's if it is electric baseboard. >> Mhm. >> Can I ask a question? So >> sure >> the first step would be to get the grant I assume. So what are feasibility studies cost normally and how much is the grant? We we can uh we've been told

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by uh the the feasibility study is for $15,000 and we've been told that you can probably get something pretty close to that. Uh you know that that that's might be the right price. There might be a little bit more. We could figure it out. Um and the second part is uh for design

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and that's for up to $100,000. Um and again don't you know it depends what you're designing how much it costs. And then the third part is for up to $750,000 for the installation. And Karen, I got that right. Right. Yes, you did. >> Okay, good.

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>> I noticed some feasibil when I think feasibility study, one feasibility study I saw didn't have anything about money. >> Mhm. >> Are we talking feasibility studies that talk about money? >> Uh, I'm assuming you could uh you could decide what you can get for $15,000. I'm

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assuming it does not have to do with the the economics of it, but more is it technically feasible to get it done to get enough get get enough energy to make it worthwhile for you. >> And the one thing I've >> So my only point would be it's a

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feasibility study. If you're going to design, you got to know what it's to be feasible. Is it going to be cost effective? >> Yes. >> So otherwise, you don't go to the design. You don't spend money on the design. So >> Right. Right. And that uh always depends on how much you pay for it and uh at

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what sort of uh cost of capital and who's where the revenue is coming from. And so I think that that would be one of the things that we can help with. We've got a variety of experts that will will assist including the the exhead of the department of public utilities in Massachusetts and uh the the guy who

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installed the thermal network in Framingham for Eversource um as well as the center for public enterprise who are looking into the economics. But it would be you all to make your decisions about what would be most attractive to you.

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>> So I have a question and I've I've looked around and maybe around the world they've had them. Where where close to us did they actually tap into a sewer main? >> Um so they're doing an installation in

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uh sir well they they have one in Washington DC at DC water. Uh that's uh there's also they're doing an installation in Syracuse using the county's wastewater treatment plant there >> and it's not not installed yet. >> Yes, they will be doing it um

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>> at the plant or in a in a pipe. >> They're they're taking the as I understand it the effluent o out of the plant afterward and taking it to a separate pump house that they'll build and then have a heat exchanger there to transmit just the heat to the to the clean water that goes around the

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neighborhood. in Vancouver. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Not near us. >> Y in Massachusetts yet? >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Hold on. >> Not that I know of at the moment. I can't think of any. >> Go ahead. >> The I like I like to think long term as

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best I can. Meaning as a city what you know if this is a direction that we want to go in what capa what percentage of a capacity coming out of the sewage is going to go to this project and allow us to use other products because if it's as

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good as everyone seems to think it is then there'll be other people who will say hey I want cheap energy too and I you know and I'd rather before we do any it's figure out you know what's phase one in Marbor what's phase two in Marbor what's so forth and so on. Are we going

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to tap into the skating rinks? We got to kind of get to an entire municipality plan for this and not just do project to project in my opinion. >> So I hold on Trey, you had your hands up too, so I'm going to give it back to

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you. >> Yeah, I mean I please councelor Vital if you'd like to answer his question first that's fine. I'm also happy to jump in. It's a little off the beaten path from where he was going. it was more in terms of some of the existing projects that have already happened and just some questions I have around those. Um, just

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to see kind of how feasible it is, what we're doing. Obviously, we're going to, you know, ideally have a feasibility study, but I know I have some concerns about the Syracuse project and then the ones in Massachusetts that are not full thermal energy network systems, but rather um district energy or geothermal

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networks. Right. So, ju just some clarifying questions there, but um I I defer to you, Mr. share how we'd want >> um I so one of the conversations we had at the beginning of this is like you know Malboro is is

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a dense but small city but not super dense I mean total population around 45,000 I think we're about 7 square milesish or something how much 25 square miles more than I thought okay um in any case

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we can't you know one option is like try in one place and grow or figure out where there are opportunities within the city and leverage those independently. This being one of them. Um and then we

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may find some other ones you know um either you know on Forest Street or whatever um of businesses that want to take advantage of this. And the the business model to implement this is going to be very

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similar where and it's also very similar to like solar panels today right um you know there was someone that has interest they negotiate eventually there's a project plan of what what someone wants to get done either it's done through us

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it's done through the land owner whatever right um we work with them if it's a thermal exchange change through waste water. That's one scenario. We can do a thermal exchange for heating from

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Fort Meadow, freeze the lakes faster during the winter. Um or we could do geothermal wells and march with those and just keep on drilling to our heart's content cuz that, you know, that there there could be thousands of wells driven

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drilled within Malber over decades, you know. Um but the model still becomes effectively the same. You have the land owner who makes the investment to utilize the resources of his land to capture some degree thermal energy in

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his property. He then sells it to the utility which is the municipal utility. We we're the middleman. Then the utility sells it to the end users, the tenants or the property owners and other properties. So this may you know in this

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may become a scattered for first generation where we got maybe over time a couple of different projects going on within the city and then it just grows from there and expands. Um, most of the ones I've seen, the projects that are

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getting done, no one's really thinking about expansion, which I consider to be the biggest issue cuz you got to you got to figure out how to fund the project, but also fund expansion. But that that becomes more of an operations instead of a project related issue. >> Yeah.

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>> So, does that make it any clearer or I'm not sold on it yet. For example, we have a great open space plan that we have. I see this being a part of that. So we so we say, "Okay, South Street, if that's going to be houses, we're going to talk to the developer because it's going to

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be a lot more cost effective if we do it before the the buildings are up." A lot more cost effective. >> Oh, absolutely. >> So if we look at some of the areas that developers like we're going to get more, at least I believe we're going to get more housing done on Donald Lynch Boulevard.

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>> Mhm. >> That's going to happen. whether it's in the mall, whether it's, you know, somewhere along Donald Lynch Boulevard, somewhere else, but that would be another great opportunity for the skating rink idea, >> right? >> So, I just see this being more should be more strategic

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and not just saying, "Hey, let's go do this because we have it's a mile from the the sewage plant." And >> oh, it's it's not a mile from the sewer plant. It is a couple of feet from a 30-in sewer main. And that's what the whole thing is about. That main goes

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farther up. >> Oh, true. But we just have to check. Right. So, >> yeah. No, the main that main is the sewer birth that goes up to Phelps. >> You're not seeing my my point here. I know you're getting excited about this project and I and I'm excited about the project, too. >> I just would rather slow it not even

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slow it down, but just say, "Okay, what are some other opportunities that we long-term want to look at here within the city? >> Is South Street one? Is Don's Boulevard one?" Yeah. you know, other other developments that we see down the road somewhere. You know, we

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>> if this is such a cost effective model, then I would think that developers would be jumping jumping over hurdles to get to it. I think that we should be um working with future, you know, with businesses that are planning to move in

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the city. they should be aware of what we're trying to do here and ask them to get more involved in it because there's a lot of businesses that are interested in trying to basically get greener for many reasons. >> You know, that's why there's, you know, you have a uh chief sustainability

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officer for many businesses now cuz they're looking at sustainability of the business. >> And you know, I think that, [clears throat] you know, >> I don't I don't want to be a flying the ointment here. No, no, no. >> I want to get I want to get a feasibility study. I want to get us

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looking at this as an alternative, >> right? >> I just want to make sure like again back to my point if if we're how much of the capacity from that treatment plant is going to be used for this project. >> I think they're going to be projects that we'll be able to do. >> Right.

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>> So, it's every 1 million gallons per day of waste water, you can get basically enough heat and heating and cooling for 100 homes. So if you have sorry uh if you take three degrees of temperature off that waste water as it goes by and

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so >> how many homes >> 100 homes 1 million gallons per day on average not not max flow but the average uh and you take 3° of temperature off you have enough temperature to heat and cool 100 homes. So if you have 20

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million gallons you got enough for 2,000 homes. uh and I don't remember what the your wastewater treatment plant flow is, but you can use that as a basic concept. And then uh I would not forget the ice rinks also, which you've got just free

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uh shed heat that you could use uh constantly. Um, it's a so I would just I'm I'm really happy to go around and look look around the municipality and suggest other possibilities, but I don't want to have you bite off more than you

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want to chew at this moment >> or or or overstep in any way. We're happy to help in whatever ways you think is helpful. >> Right. Yes. So I just say if if we're looking at the if they feel like this is the best look at the wastewater plus the

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disadvantaged place I think the first step is let's get information what information do they need from us >> okay >> I would assume it's not a constant flow so >> right >> so what type of information you need we want more information on what the tap looks like is it a is it a wet tap

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where's the tap in the pipe >> right the thermal exchange >> all things like that how does that work and and things like that. Go for the grant. See if you get the grant. See how much the feasibility study says. What does the feasibility study say? I think that's where we are right now. So,

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>> okay. >> Okay. I I add um to your point, councelor Vatel, that I I think it's great that you're sorry that you're looking at the big picture and what what it sounds like to me is you're saying in terms of the whole town, where are the

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various thermal assets and how can we, you know, look at this 10 15 years in advance and sort of have a big strategic plan. I I think that's a great just generally great planning. Well, I see this as as a a carrot for future development, right? Absolutely. They're

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taking this advantage that now we have other folks that may want to purchase land on Donald Lynch Boulevard that may not have wanted to do it originally, >> right? >> You know, those types of >> There are loads of examples, very good examples of new developments with thermal energy networks that we could help you, you could, you know, we could

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provide you with all those. >> And the closest one is Framingham, right? Well, that well, I'll let Andrea that's that's not development. >> Uh Framingham is yeah was building retrofits and they're doing a second installation that a second loop that's being added onto Framingham. So, they're already expanding there. Um but there

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are other new developments that do this like Whisper Valley in Texas or uh Markham which is just outside of Toronto. Uh you know, so you've got two extreme temperature [laughter] sites where it works really well. Mark, are you going to say something?

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>> Yes, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Um, I've been looking over the grant proposal and it looks like they'll give you for a technical assistance grant, as you noted, 15,000. Uh, and then after that, we'll wait for that. I think that's important to do the feasibility study or

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the technical assistance grant study. Uh, then it looks like they go up to a 100,000 for a pilot program. Correct me if I'm wrong. >> I think it's a design >> design a pilot design. And then after that, I read that they will offer and I

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see this is just there's a $5 million amount available at within this grant, but $750,000 for construction is what I see in this notice from the state. I just forwarded to you u Mr. Chair. >> Thank you. I appreciate that.

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>> With that said, do you know how many communities in Massachusetts may be interested in absorbing this $5 million? cuz you know if we take a million from it there won't be much left for others >> right so I assume it's about five installations that will come out of this

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and uh we are currently working with Boston Housing Authority to you know take a look as well as with South Hadley and I assume there will be many other sites so it's good to come in with a really good proposal and one that us that uh serves underserved communities

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because that's what it says it's particularly interested in >> and I understand why you're considering the housing down on um East Main, not East Maine, Route 20 East. >> Route 20. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh with that said, it sounds like, you know, this is one of maybe many

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projects down the line if someone sees it working and working well. U it was mentioned the new housing going in. You know, this could be like the jump start to going to other locations. And I just don't know how much

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it seems like whatever energy they take from the wastewater will that affect our will it lower the wastewater temperature by the time it gets to the plant? That's my concern. >> So, uh I think it has a while to go through the ground after that before it gets to the wastewater treatment plant.

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So by then it will probably have picked up those 3° or lost those 3° whichever >> you know it'll equalize to what it was before. >> What a way to harness energy then you know. >> Yeah it's it's waste energy in the waste water.

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>> I wanted to make sure it didn't affect the plants. That's all you Um, I would just add to your earlier point about the limited amount of grant funding and the fact that it's rolling admissions that, you know, if you, this is a rare opportunity to have almost a million dollars of state aid for something like

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this. So, if you want to just focus on getting that feasibility study in and then you'll get a lot of information that will help you decide what you want to do going forward. I mean, it's you just saw the grant. It's not that heavy lifting. I mean, it's going to take time. everything takes some time and you have other priorities perhaps, but um it

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just seems like if you want to get your hat in the ring on the earlier side of this and get some information, this would be some very nice amount of money for Marlo to to move forward. >> Well, and it's interesting with if I may, Mr. Chair, just one more comment within the grant information, they do

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state the word they do suggest matching funds for the 150,000 and for the 750. said it may be helpful. You know, the way it's worded is interesting. So, but again, we'll take a look at the feasib I would hope we go to at least the

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technical assistance study, the feasibility study, and then we'll see where we can go from there and what kind of funds might be needed if the state is looking for matching grant money. If not, may they didn't say you had to. When you read it, you'll see it's very

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interesting the way they worded it. So, if it maybe for the first project if they're going to give us the entire amount without matching grants, that would be fantastic. But I have a feeling if you're a business or someone, they would probably be looking for that. But we'll see where it goes. But I was very

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interested in what the state d the mass D has put out on this. So >> I mean some some projects are going to be modest in scope and won't really need much more than the actual amount of the grant for the design but if you have you know a substantial project that's where they're probably talking about what are

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you planning to get for extra. >> So starting small may be the way to go it sounds like if you are not interested in matching the the uh grant money but but thank you and I appreciate all your assistance as well. I just the chair. >> Thank you. Uh I just want to say one

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thing before I go to you Trey. Um I this I saw this when you sent the information about it is like this is a um this is a microcosm that shows the opportunities and issues that get confronted when we're trying to do this because it just

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so happens that the landowner and the tenant are on the same property. So there's there's nothing going in and out. you know, we want to be the broker in the transaction for, you know, basically the landowner sells the thermal heat to us and the, you know,

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the tenants buy it from us and we're in the middle doing the transaction, keeping everything honest. Um, and you know, the [clears throat] you know, having the opportunity for the state to cover a big chunk of this in cost for um is one of the reasons why I

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went, "Oh, this is great." you know, we can go forward with this as an example, a demonstration and also get into I think this may get into conversations with other land owners in the city like what um you know if we're doing this other you know I want me some of that

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too because at the end of the day what we're proposing here is the second revenue stream for land owners and their tenants or maybe their tenants or maybe someone else you know >> so but Trey goes is next. Yes, sir.

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>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I I do have a couple of questions, so bear with me, and it's kind of in relation to this whole conversation. I want to start first going back to the grant funding, this 15K grant, and I think Commissioner Scott, you would hit the nail on the head of trying to give us direction as to as to what needs to happen next. That

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grant funding can only go towards wastewater and waste heat projects. Correct. Okay. So I I guess to me that that indicates that you know the next steps here would be for this body to right the city obviously needs more information to work with black swan labs

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to see what exactly is it needs to happen um you know then the grant is applied for if we get it we put together a feasibility study that is within the 15k restraint right we don't want to be going beyond that I I don't know how feasible it is to have a feasibility

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study at $15,000 for something like this so that that's kind of my first like just kind of figuring out where where are we going from here because I I'm enjoying the conversation about Countryside Village and some of these other places, but I'm struggling to find where funding's coming from, right? That the tiff would imply we're creating

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jobs. That that that's not happening. I don't see how the city could finance a tiff for something, you know, geothermal at Countryside Village. I'm I'm struggling with some of these other projects as well, just in terms of Donald Lynch Boulevard and with the highway over there in 290, right? How are we going to be operating with the

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state? So I I just I want to have some focus on what what monies are available and what can we do given given the future. So long-winded way of asking it sounds like the grant funding really should be for a wastewater treatment plant like a wastewater or waste heat you know feasibility study

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>> and uh the D grant is only for wastewater. >> Okay. Okay. And then just kind of piggybacking off from that I guess my my next question is the city's role. I feel like I've heard a couple different moving parts, but the idea that I keep hearing is the land owner sells to the

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utility and we are the utility in this case and then we sell to the tenants. I I guess I'm struggling to see anywhere else that that's happening. I mean, it's not not happening in Massachusetts, that's for sure. It's either colleges or universities or a utility company, National Grid or Eversource, right? The

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Framingham is Eversource. Even the Boston Housing Authority, it's the Boston Housing Authority is not in control of that. But it seems like it's National Grid who's doing that. So I guess my my question then becomes what what is the city's role in any of those cases and what would it be in ours? >> Um >> I know it's it's a a bit couple moving

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parts. >> So it's it's a little bit of the wild west. >> Sure. >> And there's a lot of different models out there. The Syracuse in and can you all hear me if I face this way >> and move the mic closer? >> Yeah. Feel it's okay here. >> Okay. Um the the uh Syracuse model is

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one that might be most close to it. National grid is the dist owns the distribution system and the county owns the wastewater treatment plant. Uh and there would be an exchange of funds for that energy for that thermal energy. Um there's there was also a model in Troy,

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New York where the city was going to own the uh the bore holes and sell the thermal energy to national grid. So those are those are some models. There are some municipalities out there. West Union, Iowa, uh wait, uh Boise, Indian,

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you know, >> Idaho, Idaho, >> Idaho. There we go. Uh I can get my states right. Um where they do have geothermal utilities uh that are run by the municipality or by a company for the municipality.

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So those those and Ann Arbor is about to install one too. So there are methods like that too. You you should go through and figure out what you want as a as a city, >> right? So we shouldn't, you know, kind of I guess the the reason why I ask is

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just it seems like the conversation is really predicated on the fact that the city is the the utility in some way. Um right, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the avenue in which we go. That's the clarification. >> Can I just add one thing? Um, councelor Deset, you you are often saying the land

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land owner sells, but in a in a in a sewer related system, the city is the sewer. The city has the temperature. There's no land owner involved in that system per se. The the city owns the sewer. The city is selling the temp the thermal energy directly basically to

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whoever's distributing it to the building. So in in the case of in the case that Audrey was describing in Syracuse, they're selling it to National Grid and National Grid has a distribution system. Um if it's all within the city, it it never goes to a land owner. Now the bore hole question

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is a different >> different. >> So so the way I thought about is at least this the waste water um thermal systems. Um someone pays to build that system and I'm assuming the land land

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owner would in the case of the projects not the city. Um and if the land owner pays to build the system then he gets the revenue from the system. I I would assume that I mean and I I think this is something that is an

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interesting question. I would assume if the city owns the sewer and uh provides the thermal energy then uh the uh city would get revenue from that and I don't know if the city would prefer to

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have the landowner pay for the technology and you know to take that temperature or not. I would think the city would want to have that that technology because it would be affecting their system >> and they would want control over it, but I I do not know. >> Right. So, you know, there's got to be

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something there for the land owners to basically um benefit from, you know, benefit financially from the situation. And also um if the land owner pays for the system and they're a for-profit

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corporation then they can take all the tax deductions that they can where the city cannot you know. So I I think the you know when it either with wastewater heat or geothermal wells

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property owner pays for the systems and at the end of the day the you know the wells are owned by the city and at the end of the day the you know the the wastewater is also owned by the city but in both cases the land owner makes money because they're the ones that put

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together the system to extract the drive the energy. I >> I think you could do it in many many different ways and you might think of it as somewhat similar to the electric system that there's the distribution system who does the generation and then the consumer.

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>> And so if the city owned the wastewater, it would be akin to owning the battery. It it could install the distribution system and sell to the customers and then take that revenue too. Or, you

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know, or it could be that uh in a lot of the installations across the country so far, the the bore holes when bore holes are used instead of wastewater are in parking lots owned by the state or municipality. >> Yeah.

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>> And so maybe under those circumstances again, the city has the battery, right, or the solar panels and then is selling into, you know, it this could be pursed in a thousand ways. It depends on what the city wants. >> I'm not I'm not I'm not saying that this way the way I'm

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proposing is the exclusive way that it's going to get done. >> But I think that the the landlord, you know, if if we can have the landlord pay for much of the system as possible and then basically give him he gets the

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incentives, the feds incentives, the state incentives. You know, we can if we can find city incentives, if the tips don't work, the tips don't work. um or at least figure that out. Um but at the uh

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you know the landlord basically run owns the systems be you know and therefore they get value from that from owning the systems. Whether or not wastewater heat is marked at the same price point as you know geothermal wells

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you know bore holes I don't think so because you know again it's like you know they're they're extracting heat from our water. So it shouldn't be as much as a geothermal well, but there should be some compensation, you know, because they built the system, >> you know. I I could be wrong, but it

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could be that the underlying concern for which that might be a solution is how do we pay for this? >> And you're thinking, well, if if the town can't afford to or doesn't want to pay for it, we want someone else to be able to pay for it, like the landlord idea. So, one thing just to consider is

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um as Audre has mentioned, we we are working with some super duper good experts on sort of different modular ownership models, different financing models. So, I think the question of how do we pay for it is a really important one and and keeping an open mind about

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the variety of ways that best suits you >> and evaluating them all would probably be just a good exercise when we get to that when you get to that point after the feasibility study. And we're happy to have a good strong sit-down meeting with our our key people on that.

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>> And and will the feasibility study provide sort of those different options so that they would look at that stuff? >> It won't be financial, it'll be technical. >> So the feasibility study will just say >> is this feasible tech, you know, in in the in the way, but then then that next

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step would be figuring out a model that Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. Okay. Anything else? I just have I have a curious question. Trey, I saw Tre's hand first. Sorry. Trey. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I um just real

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quick, I guess my my [clears throat] major concern here is that I look at like the the Boston Housing Authority Franklin project. I look at the Framingham project. Seems as though like the the municipality or at least Eversource and National Grid came into this with a very specific vision of what they wanted to do, right? In

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Frammingham, it was they wanted geothermal um to actually dig bore holes and and try a little pilot program. Seems like with um Boston Housing Authority, they had aging gas boiler system in pre-existing buildings that they had identified. I'm worried that we're a little a lot of moving parts

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here, right? Like we're not we're not looking at one specific thing as a group. Um and I understand that it's it's hard to, right? there's a lot of things going on. But I guess because of that, I'm I'm concerned about putting funds one place or another when we really don't know what direction we want

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to be going in. So I guess my question is for Black Swan Labs. Is there a way in which you folks apply for this grant and kind of tell us, you know, hey, we we did a feasibility on, for example, the write the grant funding for the um the wastewater and waste heat and then

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come back and say this this is what the report says, this is what it is. You know, you guys take with that what you will or is that not kind of part of this program? >> We're we're not eligible to apply. You have to be a municipal basically a DPW or a water treatment plan or something like that. >> Those are the only folks who are

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eligible for >> we would have happily done that for you. >> Sure. [laughter] Sure. >> And I will say that I worked uh so we brought this idea when I was at heat a different nonprofit. We brought this concept to national grid and average got

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them to agree. Then we found all the sites for them >> and it wasn't like the sites were you know knew that they wanted holes. Uh they just wanted to you know go towards clean energy. >> Sure. But they came to that through you folks in some way right outside of grant

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funding and feasibility but they worked in partnership with you. I'm assuming some kind of agreement between the utility company and and Black Swan Labs. I guess I I don't know. my my trying to figure out where where do we go from here is really what what I'm trying to figure out. >> Any any you know just I suggest

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exploring the different options until you find options that make you happy. >> Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> Okay. >> I just this is more towards Ted. Um we're we're in a unique I'm always looking to make money rather than spend money. Um, we accept waste water from

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the town of Northro and we treat it in our west facility. Can we send can we sell back their waste water for a thermal project in Northro? >> Okay. >> Well, we do charge them for for the

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service, but you could there's all kinds of possibilities. I mean, but what is it practical? How do you how do you how do you get the thermal energy to them in the street or anything? >> I think that >> I think I think the best thing to do is

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they made a proposal on wastewater. There's grant money there. Use the grant money. This is a case where you're right you're right on top of it. You're not transmitting everywhere. So have them uh help us with the with the grant and then

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take it from there and see where it goes. >> Okay. So I thank you, Ted. I appreciate that. Um I mean I I think that a grant for this small piece as a

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demonstration I think is critical cuz it shows viability even if we you know depending how far down we go. Um, so I I think that there is an opportunity here and would you for here be interested in working offline and getting the first

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draft of the grant in place for the study, you know, basically for the Boston Post Road East project. >> I think that would be great. I would suggest also talking to the people the uh building owner to make sure to get some information on the building.

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>> Yeah. >> Yes. Yes. >> Make sure they're interested. >> President, what were you going to say? >> So, I am very concerned about committing city resources when we really don't know what we want yet. I I believe the mayor's not on board. Ted and Priscilla

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are being kind. I I don't I I I am concerned of using their time and resources for something that's not well defined. So, you tap into the the wastewater system. The planning boards put it perfectly. What guarantees someone's going to use it? I'm going to

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get rid of my fossil fuel supply system and use geothermal way. We are so far in the infancy part of this that committing resources from my perspective is really premature. your I think your your focus would be better

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to get National Grid to try to develop a pilot program here in Malro versus trying to say we're going to set it up here cuz I'll tell I'm not going to support city resources going after this when it's not well defined. We've had two meetings for 2 hours and we're going

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to commit a whole bunch of city funds. He's not going to approve it. All right. I I I I appreciate what you're doing. I just think what you want to do and what the real benefits are are not well laid out. I hear a lot of if the land owner

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does this and if that well ifs are great but that's that you're committing city resources and they're at a premium right now and I want you to be very careful what you're asking for because I don't think we're ready. This to me needs a lot more discussion. I'm not shutting it

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down, but I just think we're way too early in the process to say, you know, Ted, Priscilla, we're going to have you stop what you're doing and focus on geothermal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm not saying to drop what they're

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doing either. Um, but I think that in this case, you know, there's there's an opportunity here to do research and the feasibility study money is out there for us to take advantage of and Black Swan

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Labs is willing to write the feasibility study. So, they just need input from the city to actually get it done. So, uh, the mayor's here. Would he like to comment at all? you remember how it works?

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>> I do remember. Yeah. Thank you, Mary. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, no, again, I I watched the first meeting and now being here at the second one, I I have a lot of questions and I think everyone in this room has a lot of questions as well

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and um they're not there yet. My concern is my job is to protect the city. And I think if we go out to this countryside village and start talking to them about it before we have any of these answers, it's not a good look for the city

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overall. Um they're going to have the same questions as we are. My first initial question is cost. U we can talk all day about what this means in that regards, but there is no cost affiliated with that. Um, I think we're consistently putting the cart before the horse with this process and that's

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concerning to me as well. I wrote a support letter to Black Swan. I was happy to do that regarding what we can do for the next step. I think we're three steps ahead. Um, I would like to know what the feasibility study will consist of, what that what that means, and then take the next step before we we

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start reaching out to all these different individuals. um because I don't think it's the best look for this city when we don't have these answers um that they will have for their questions. Again, I'm totally on board with this. I'm here obviously because I want to

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support this project. Um I'm open to the project. I just don't have the answers to move forward the way that I want to and to utilize um the department heads I think is a little premature as of yet. I'd rather Black Swan do what they need

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to do to figure out what actually can be done and then have this committee come in and discuss the possibilities and utilizing their valuable insight to see what the next steps actually are and what actually is feasible from the

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feasible feasibility study. Um, again, I just don't know why we're meeting as of yet before the feasibility study and what that feasibility study could pertain. I see the feasibility study contain

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whether or not it would make sense to do a project like this for this one in particular because the money is available for a specific type of project that you know would fit within this the scope of this overall project.

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>> But what is what is that project? We've talked about different scenarios between Donald Boulevard to sport. >> This one in particular is only for the um >> wastewater energy. So why aren't we focusing on that? You know, I think there's a lot of conversation about

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everything else but that within the last hour that we had. So I think that we just need to focus on that project and what that entails. What are the pros? What are the cons? How much is it going to cost? What are the possible costs to the city? What's the liability for this for the city? What's the liability for the treatment plant? Those are the

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questions that are not being addressed tonight. And I think that's where the concrete needs to happen so we can where the rubber hits the road. Um again, that's just my take. I don't feel comfortable moving forward unless those we have an idea of where those answers are coming from.

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>> So I believe and I'm sorry if it's been confusing. Most of the time we've been talking only about the feasibility study for the wastewater energy recovery at that site or at least that's what I would thought we were talking about. There is the possibility of many other sites and further possibil

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possibilities. But my recommendation is you look first at the grant which is free and takes just a little time to to you know file for to find out if it's technically feasible and that along the way you talk to the owners of the

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building to make sure they're interested. Uh and I'm happy to do that and we can do it separate from the city if that makes it better. But many housing authorities, low-income housing authorities have mandates that they have to do this and especially if it would save them money and their uh their

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residents money, they're very interested. And so this might be something that helps the low-income housing uh authority at the same time. You try out the system and begin to figure out what models might work for the city, if any, for further expansion

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of other possible thermal networks if you want. It's just it's a way of stepping in slowly and trying it out with very very little risk >> you okay or >> yeah I mean I still don't know how the energy is going to be transferred to there um the cost that's affiliated with

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that we brought up a tiff that's not going to be possible um so again I I still don't think that if you go to this individual or the owner they're not going understand the actual process as a whole. And I think that it it's a little

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too premature. >> So another option is to not talk to the owner. Just find out if it's feasible. >> Correct. >> And then if it's feasible, >> then you have an initial conver you. The owner may say, "I'm not interested at all." And then you did the study and it's feasible and they don't want it.

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And that's fine. That's just the end of it. Or >> which that makes sense to me. you know, like why do we have to why do we have to have an actual location already determined when we don't know if it's feasible? >> The other thing that you don't need to know now because we don't even know if it's technically feasible is

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>> what are you going to do to pay for it? That's a whole another conversation before you consider applying for a design. >> You would we would have that conversation with you. If if it turns out they're like this is very feasible and these are all the benefits and you all get excited about it, you would spend a lot of time trying to answer

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that question. How do we pay for this? how does it make sense for this city? And we would we have some key experts that we would bring in to support you if you wanted us to. >> Um and then only if you decide that it makes sense would you then consider taking the next step for the design phase.

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>> And that's even before like the installation phase. You you have multiple like sort of guardrails along the way >> to uh decide whether you want to keep moving forward. This is not a huge commitment at this stage. Correct. It's just let's get the information to even know if it's technically feasible.

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>> And through you, Mr. Chair, I think that makes the most sense. Like is this even feasible? >> And then if so, we can talk about this all day long or all night. It's great. But until we know what this feasibility still and I think that's where we are and I think that's why it's >> it's

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I don't again to put the cart before the horse when we don't even know if it's feasible, you know, and again the cost could determine how feasible this is. So we could be talking a million or we talking about $10 million. We don't know until we initially get this. >> And just in terms of the council over

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here's concern about um putting resources in now, uh from what I understand, the only resources would be cuz we're happy to help with the grant. It would be the part of the grant that is specific to Marbor's system that we wouldn't know

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without your data. So, we would do a lot of the project description and anything that would be helpful for you and then you would just plug in, you know, I don't know how many hours of staff time that would take. You probably have all this information on every other grant you've written just about. So [clears throat] I don't hopefully it would not take a lot of DPW staff time.

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>> I I just I just can't have my department heads take the lead on this. Right. I just can't have my department heads take the lead on this. Like it's just not >> Yeah. We help in any way we can. >> Correct. >> No. And I get that. I just want to make sure that we're clear that like we have a city to run and and that's that's the

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main priority. So that's right. You know, but >> Okay. Council. Well, I will agree with the mayor here that I think we go for the grant money, the technical study grant money of 15,000. Appreciate your services to offer our DPW commissioner

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the time he needs to do his job. Uh especially during the snowstorm season. I'm sure you'll be quite busy, Ted. But I'm anxious about this. So, I've read that Germany is going to have 20% of their energy based on wastewater

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transitioning of the thermal energy transitioning. 20% of their country. And I am tired of paying for fossil fuel to fuel my home, fuel my vehicles. We are in a dilemma in this country. I'll make

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that statement. We don't have to go any further than turning on the national news. and you'll see fossil fuel is not the way to go. And I'm excited about this project. At least let's do the feasibility study as the mayor just recommended. Let's not in any way take

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from our department heads. They're busy enough. And I will commend councelor Ducet for starting this process. Thank you. >> Thank you for that. Um so when do Okay. If we're going to go do a

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feasibility study for this project, um when how long do you think Black Swan Lab would take to get a plinary draft done? >> You could probably do it next week, [laughter] get you by the end of the week.

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>> And it it takes about a month. Uh they the D says it'll takes about a month for them to assess the grant and decide. >> Okay. >> Is there a deadline? Good news is that I just was on a call with the grant and they're >> they're they're going to do a a collection of grants at the same time because they want to compare them and

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have them in different parts of the state and so far they haven't gotten any grants. So we're not late. That's the good news cuz you know there's very limited money here. So we're on the early side, >> right? >> Um and uh so that's that's good. >> Okay. >> Okay. Um

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let's see if >> Thank you. We were going, we were talking before the meeting of doing uh next climate resilience meeting on August 3rd, which is actually Monday.

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>> Board of Health meetings from 6:30 to 7:30. Can we do a meeting at 7:30? >> I I think the next meeting should be based upon whether or not the what the feasibility says. >> She said about a week, but yeah. >> Right. But it has to be submitted, correct? >> No. Well, it's got to be submitted by

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the feasibility study has to be submitted by the city, right? >> No, no, there's not a deadline for >> it's rolling, >> right? But who submits the feasibility study? >> Oh, officially someone from your town has to be from the city. >> We can only help cuz we're not eligible as a nonprofit.

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>> Okay. >> So, >> and the question is, do we want to review it before cuz it's going to be submitted from the city. So, I expected that we would at least want to see it. >> Yeah. >> Well, I if I can interject, we'll get what information it is. We'll have the grant. We can email it around for

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comment come down and then we submit it >> like we do all our other grants. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, just run with it and then you guys when you get the grant when when you get in a draft of the >> Well, we'll email it out to everybody for comment. >> Okay.

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>> Before we send it out, >> right? >> Okay. >> Whoever you can you can tell whoever you want to to put on the uh >> send it to the city council, too. But yeah, >> right. But coming, >> Mr. Chair. >> Yes, sir. >> I'd like to make a motion

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>> that Blackstone puts together this the grant application up to including well up to the specs that you will need from the city. someone from DPW will fill in the blanks that are needed on that application

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and then commissioner will once it's all been done the commissioner will send around the application to everyone in this meeting including the mayor um and then we will decide to whether to send it forward or not. That's my motion.

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>> Okay. Motion has been seconded to >> Do you have a Do you have a commentary? >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know. I was just doing a little bit of homework about the grant and I guess what what I my question is what does this lock us into? Because I mean I I'm reading here

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there's three phases to the grant process like we discussed. Are we now locked into going forward with a pro after the feasibility of project design and project construction? >> No. >> Okay. Because I'm seeing a little bit of conflicting information on the internet about that. But I also know it does say

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that nonprofits can't apply. The issue is because it is the owner of the wastewater treatment plant that has to be the final applicant. But um I I just want we are not locked into anything beyond the I guess the energy assessment feasibility study. But again I I go back

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to I'm not sure why why we need a motion for for what we've just discussed, I guess, is where I'm I'm a little I get it. It's to formalize this, but >> um >> fair enough. I guess it seems like the mayor is on board with this. So, um,

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Commissioner Scott is as well, but, uh, I I am just concerned that we're locking into something that goes that that is going to keep tumbling. >> So, so I can the way I see this, right, is that each of these stages

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is um, basically a gate. Okay. You know, are you going to take it serious to do a feasibility study? Yes. Then you get the feasibility study. After that, okay, do you want to go forward with the design? Okay, then you, you know, we would decide then to go for design and then

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for construction, that's the third step for construction. So, it's just the three-step process. We're not locked in, but you but there's a sequence and we can stop with feasibility. If we find if we find it's not feasible, we're done, right? You know, if on the other hand,

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we find it feasible, then we got to start taking it more seriously. And they can't make you apply for the design phase too. They can't make you apply for any other phase. So >> Sure. >> Yeah. >> Sure. >> Thank you. Okay. >> Yes. C uh President.

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>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Can you restate the motion? I make a motion that black black swan will put together the uh application for the feasibility study up to everything that they can do other than the specs from the wastewater treatment plant that

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will be done by DPW at that time commissioner will send around the application to so so hang on so that's a one long motion I you know if you're going to write all that down I I can't wait to see your report council dous what is the motion motion.

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>> The motion is >> you can't just keep adding words and stuff to it. That's not >> the motion is that this committee will go forward with the feasibility study. >> Concise enough. >> So you don't have council approval. Nothing needed. If the mayor wants to take it on, that's his job.

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>> But you you're going without any council input other than the five members here. >> So So you don't know if you got And don't tell me you talk to people. That doesn't go well. >> No, no, no. That's I agree. You haven't reported anything out to the city council. That is true. >> No one's aware of what's going on.

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>> All right. I I am just talking to Sarah about this earlier today. >> I'm nervous of Ted's and Priscilla's time. >> All right. That this project is going to undertake without any real data that shows it's going to work. I hear a lot

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of some place in Idaho and this place in Framingham that I haven't seen a scratch of data that says it works. I I again I I admire the effort but I still think we are way early in the process. My opinion

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thank you Mr. Chair. >> Okay. >> Yes Trey. >> Thank you Mr. Chair. I I I think I'm coming from a similar place as President Oing in the sense that that there seems to be buyin from the mayor. There seems to be buyin from the department heads.

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I'm not sure why we're going forward with a motion that as President Osc said the last meeting, we didn't report anything out from this committee even though we had a meeting, right? We're now having a second meeting as a committee and we've yet to report anything to the council about what we're

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doing here. And I hopefully the other counselors are watching, but they might not be, right? They're not on this committee. So, I I I do worry a little bit that moving to commit the city and our resources, albeit modest, because thank you, Black Swan Labs. I I'm I'm

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you know, if if there's buy in, there's buyin and we can move ahead. I I'm I I don't know why we're making a motion. I I would like it to be reported out first off, you know, at the next council meeting, but again, that's in August and, you know, are we I assume we're meeting before our next council meeting

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in August again. So, I I don't know. I'm I'm also weary of the timeline in which we're doing this, the speed at which we're doing this, which is great. We should we should be working hard to make this happen. But again, we've had two meetings, so I don't uh um I'm not sure

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I could support a motion on this, but >> motion you just you pretty much just gave stated why we have a motion. The first meeting, we didn't have anything come out out of the committee. The motion right now to go to the feasibility study would go to in my opinion should go to the over to the

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next ch uh council meeting as a report of committees and and the chair would report that the committee met and we made a a vote to send forth the the feasibility study. >> Mr. Chair, actually let me let me insert something. >> I actually haven't yielded my time. I

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hate to do that but I I was speaking before I was interrupted. I do want to point out there was a motion at the last meeting of this committee. >> I couldn't I can't remember it because it was another long drawn out motion, but we made a motion and it didn't come out to the council. So, I'm worried that we're in a redundant cycle here and

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we're doing it again tonight. >> Um, are you are you >> I yield my time? [clears throat] >> I was trying I I was trying to get before you interrupted and I apologize for interrupting you. Um, but I had a talk with Sarah cuz I was very surprised

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that there wasn't the minutes in the mailbox. All kidding aside, and I had a conversation with her and she said basically nothing was sent out of committee. That's why she didn't do the agenda. She didn't do the minutes. So I I had a conversation with her. She's going to put the minutes in place. and

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the we'll be doing both meeting two or three meetings depending upon how many we have between now and the August council meeting as far as what's going on. Um now Ted made a comment that most of the grants for this type we approve

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it after the city accepts the grants. We we as a mean we as a council do not approve sending out grants. So we can we basically if the grant goes out and the state gives us the grant the

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city the council approves that grant but we don't approve it ahead of time. So I don't think this vote has to go to the council nothing personal um to be voted on to be accepted. I think that we can

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if this works out and we get the grant then we approve the grant when it gets accepted. Yes, President do something. >> Okay, there's no motion. >> Okay, you guys want to continue then on doing that? >> Mr. Chair, I retract my motion.

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>> So moved. Thank you for the clarification. So, uh, so I I actually think that we spent a lot of time in the second two bullets, which is exactly what I wanted to do as far as what is going on here, cuz I

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think at the end of the day, you know, this this project in particular is a small project that can demonstrate what we're trying to do throughout the city, but it's just a small space to do it in. And we'll see what sort how far it goes down the path.

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as far as that goes. Um the old business um we never really got into but basically you know what other uh funding there could be for feasibility for these types of projects.

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Uh I mean you guys do a lot of grants and stuff and keep an eye on what sort of state grants there are that are coming in. what is out there or do you see any other types of grants out there for this type of these types of efforts? I mean

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Ted or Priscilla, you guys know of any other grants or things that are available? >> We can we can look. I I don't know of any personally. >> Um we we did help. Uh it looks like in the environmental bond bill there might

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be $15 million to do in installations like this. >> Um but it has not yet been approved. should be approved potentially sometime this week. >> Okay. >> Um >> and the state does have we're a green community. We have fund you know sometimes there's funding there. There's

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lead by example. The doer has um funding in um there's there's a variety of of grants that you know when they seem feasible you know we talk about it. We decide what what makes sense and we talk to the mayor and decide what what makes

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sense to to apply for. Um the geothermal stuff is new. So um you know they the the lead by example is is is a grant that's kind of like if you want to you know do pilots or do something like that um it's there. I don't know how much

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money it's it's there but >> that's the OE. Yeah. And ju just to add that the governor recently announced a um build build mass uh revolving fund that would be potentially very helpful for borrowing money at very low interest to

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build these kind of infrastructure projects. A big chunk of it is meant to be for clean energy projects. So that's another source. And also uh state revolving fund also can sometimes be leveraged if you're doing something else with your your sewer system. >> Okay. Mr. Jim.

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>> Yes, sir. >> And and grants aren't unusual. We've seen them for recycling. You know, that's how we got to where we are now. You know, we see a lot of grants coming from the state cuz they see the initiative to start getting cleaner

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energy, start reducing our waste cycles, state revolving funds. Thanks for our sewer and water. You know, it helps us there. So, this isn't unusual. So, I would support us going for the 15,000

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for this study, this technical study as a minimum, but I would support it when it comes back to the full council. >> Thank you. >> Um, I'll look into the lead by example. That's actually good. Um, the other two bullets on the bottom, this is just

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stuff that were brought up. >> [clears throat] >> Um, I have talked to the city solicitor about setting up a non-binding referendum um for the 2027 election cuz I think that's something that needs to be visible to the citizens. um the use of

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AI in doing the analysis just on geo geographical geothermal geographical ge geological data um and do some analysis based on that you know overlaying what we have with GIS you know there's

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opportunities to accelerate the use of uh identifying where thing it makes sense to do drilling basically um but we we can keep that as an item I'm trying to get in touch with the city solicitor for the next meeting uh just to have a conversation with him about what it

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takes to do that as a process cuz I think that's that's an important part of this. Um, is there So, you guys are going to start working on the grant and

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we're going to set up a meeting for in uh August for >> I thought we were going to I thought we were going to do everything through Chad's email. >> Um, well, I also want to get the city solicitor in here to talk about the non-binding referendum.

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>> Mr. Mr. Sheriff, if I could interrupt, I would really prefer not to continue to use city resources until we get an understanding of what the feasibility entails. Okay? >> And that way we can have a further dialogue and incorporate how we can move forward because if it the feasibility

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study says it's not feasible, then it's not worth it to continue to have these conversations until we understand what we're up against. >> Okay. Understood. >> Thank you. >> That's taken care of. Yes, sir. >> Mr. Chair, just real quick, just something to throw out there kind of for

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for um I don't know where this goes, but a conversation for the solicitor. I agree with the mayor, right? Not coming down here to discuss the the local ballot question. I would be concerned about the political implications, right? What kind of committee has to be behind that? How does OCPF, the Office of

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Campaign and Political Finance shape out, right? A referendum like that, I worry about a city council body or I here in the city discussing that. So, I would just like, you know, like kind of sending back to you if this is something you would like to do, I would encourage that that conversation be had with the

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solicitor, but maybe not with the committee before, you know, I would I would like some sort of clarification there. I'm I'm very concerned that that could be violating some sort of campaign finance laws or some sort of electioneering. >> Honestly, that's why I wanted to get the city solicitor involved, but considering

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that my boss just said wait it out. >> Mr. I'm listening to my boss. >> I am not your boss. I I believe we can work together in this. However, I feel that >> we we have to take this next step. I I'm on board. Take this meeting as a win.

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I'm on board for this next step and then we can re-evaluate. We can reassess and we can see what the next step is. So, it's a win for tonight. So, let's let's call it a night so I can go home and eat dinner, please. >> Make a motion to adjurnn. >> Motion is seconded to adjurnn. All those

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in favor? Okay. Mo meeting is ended at 8:23 p.m. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.