will come to order. Want to please rise? We'll salute the flag. >> I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and
justice for all. >> Mr. President, >> Council Clancy, uh, I would like to ask that agenda item number four be brought up to the first item in the agenda this evening. >> Four and five. >> Yeah. Four and five. Council Clancy. >> Four and five. >> Four and five. All those in favor of
moving four and five up. All those opposed carries. the communication from the solicitor regarding order 0313b. Pursuant to your request for a legal determination of council order 03 113b,
please be advised that pursuant to the provisions of chapter 16 of the acts of 2003. The city council may by majority vote appoint at any time a person of its choosing to fill the current vacancy in the office of wad 7 city counselor which
expires January 5th, 2004. I trust this answers your questions on this issue. If I can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact me. Sincerely yours, James Golden Jr. In the agenda, item number five is the communication
from um Council President Hunt to the mayor per vote of the Marbor city council by council order adopted August 25th, 2003. I'm pleased to invite you to the city council meeting of November 17, 2003, at which time the city council
will officially appoint council elect Richard Tol to fill the seat of his beloved wife Natalie. In accordance with the city charter, please stand ready to place your signature on said vote. Immediately thereafter, the city clerk will administer the oath of office to
Mr. Tol. The city council is honored at this time to endorse the selection of Mr. tool as successor ward 7 counselor as per the mandate of the voters on nove November 4th 2003 and we are pleased to invite you mayor Marorrow to join with the city council
to complete the required process sincerely Dennis Hunt president >> accept a motion to appoint Mr. Tol motion so made >> motion's made and seconded to appoint Mr. toll as the council in Wad 7. All those in favor? All those opposed? That
carries. If the two chiefs would ask to court Mr. Tol up, we would uh up to the well. We will have the clerk give him the oath. >> Thank you, Chief. If you would repeat after me. I, Richard Artol, >> I, Richard Artol,
>> do solemnly swear >> do solemnly swear >> that I will bear true faith in allegiance >> I will bear true faith and allegiance >> to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts >> to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. >> And I will support the Constitution thereof. >> And I will support the Constitution thereof. >> So help me God.
>> So help me God. >> I, Richard Artl Jr. >> I, Richard Artl Jr. do solemnly swear >> do >> solemnly swear >> that I will faithfully and impartially >> that I will faithfully and impartially >> discharge and perform all the duties >> discharge and perform all of the duties
>> incumbent upon me as a city councelor of the city of Malbor >> incumbent upon me as a city councelor of the city of Malro >> according to the best of my ability and understanding >> according to the best of my ability and understanding >> agreeably to the rules and regulations >> agreeably to the rules and regulations
>> of the constitution and the laws of this commonwealth >> of the constitution ution the laws of this common law. >> So help me God. >> So help me God. Just one copy. >> You can do both. You can do both. The election's over. >> Congratulations. Congratulations.
Best of luck. Thank you. And congratulations, Dick. It's great to have you down here. Item number one, >> minutes of the city council meeting of November 3rd, 2003. >> Mr. President, >> council, >> could we amend the minutes to reflect
that I abstained from the um discussion on the Richmond Company? >> It's on the order. Just didn't get in the minutes. >> Thank you. >> Motion is made and seconded to accept the minutes as presented by Council Pope. All those in favor? All those opposed? carries. Item number two
>> is a communication from the mayor. I am writing to request a transfer of $10,000 from the city engineer account to the professional and technical services account. This transfer allows public works commissioner Lefrenier to hire
temporary assistants in the engineering department to fill the void created by the resignation of city engineer Pat Lansancy. Commissioner Lefrenier has identified an individual who would be willing to take on this responsibility, Mr. Paul W. Junto, professional
engineer. With these funds, Mr. Jun will contract with the city and assume the role of acting city engineer until such time as commissioner of friendia can name a replacement. Mr. Juna has been serving as an alternate member of the city zoning board of appeals and has
served in the past as Marorrow city engineer for one year before leaving for Newton where he served as city engineer for 22 years. Mr. Junter's role will be to oversee the engineering department and offer as much assistance as he can while serving as acting city engineer.
To expedite this appointment, I respectfully request the council suspend rules this evening to approve this transfer. I have asked Commissioner Lefrenier and Attorney Golden to be present this evening to answer any questions you may have. Thank you. William J. Marorrow Jr. Mayor
>> Council Visioner the finance committee is present. >> Motion is made and seconded to refer this to the finance committee. All those in favor? All those opposed? Carries. >> Item number three. >> It's a communication from the mayor. I'm writing to request the appointment with
your approval of the following members to the youth commission. Brian Murphy of 34 Allen Road and Jason Webster of 79 Preston Street. In close, please find the recommendation of these individuals from Peggy Ears, chair of the youth commission. Mr. Murphy's appointment
will fill the vacancy left with the resignation of Anthony Dono, while Mr. Webster's appointment will fill the commission with its seven members. These appointments would be for three years and expire in 2006. Thank you. William J. Maro, Junior. Mayor Councel Pope, >> please refer to personnel.
>> Motion is made and seconded to refer to personnel. All those in favor? All those opposed? Carries. >> Number six. >> Item number six. >> Here's a communication from the solicitor regarding the street acceptance of Bellow Circle in Kenny
Lane. I have enclosed the proper order of acceptance for the above reference streets. said order is in proper form for your consideration and acceptance. The city engineer has reviewed the submittal and approved same. Please feel free to contact this office should you have any questions regarding this
matter. Very respectfully, James Golden Jr. >> Okay, this had been approved once. So, we can just vote to approve it again correct form. Motion is made and second to approve. All those in favor? All those opposed? Carries. Item number
seven. >> Here's a communication from councelor Vigant regarding the resolution for the advanced math and science academy charter school. I have spoken to assistant superintendent Petrant regarding the potential impact of the proposed advanced math and science
academy charter school on funding for the Marro school department. I have filed a resolution on the November 17th, 2003 agenda asking for city council support of the school committee's resolution asking for a moratorum on the approval of new charter schools until a
fair and equitable system is developed to determine the actual average cost per pupil who leaves an existing public school system to transfer to a charter school so as to not take away additional instructional services from those students who remain with the existing
public school system. Toward that end, I have asked that Superintendent of Schools Bonafice and Assistant Superintendent Petrant be allowed to address the city council on November 17th, 2003 to express their concerns on the issue. Sincerely, Arthur Vigant,
City Councelor, >> Council Vigant, >> Mr. President, can I ask that uh we suspend the rules to move up item 16 uh to work with that along with uh the item seven? Motion's made and seconded to bring item number 16 up. All those in
favor? All those opposed? Carries. >> Number 16. I'm sorry. Go ahead. >> Is ordered that the Marbor City Council go on record in support of the attached resolution adopted by the Marbor School Committee regarding the advanced math and science academy charter school. Submitted by councelor Vigant.
>> Thank you, Mr. President. Um, Mr. patron came in and saw me a couple times over the last couple of weeks because of the issue of a possibility of a charter school coming to the city and the concerns that um the school committee and the school department have
with the loss of funds because of a possibility of a charter school coming to the city. I want to state right now I am personally not against charter schools. Uh I think everyone has their own opinions on them. I think alternative methods within the system is
a good thing. Um, you know, having a little competition is a good thing, but right now what we have is a uh we have a semirrisis going on in the state. We've had promises from the state. And here's another one of those mandated promises
that came down from the state where they were going to kind of blend in the funding for these charter schools, reimbursing 100% in the first year. That's a great thing for the first year, but they only funded 38% of it. So again, the state's telling us we have to
do certain things, but they're not giving us the funding for it. There's other things that need to be addressed before they should approve any additional charter schools. And at this point, I am supporting the moratorum for one year to give them time to adjust
address some of these concerns that communities have, including ours here in Marorrow. And um then from that point on then if they go forward with the charter schools I don't have a problem with that. I am not opposed to charter schools. Uh with that Mr. President if
we could hear from the superintendent and assistant superintendent u to discuss this a little bit and they can get into some of the particulars. >> Motion is made and seconded to suspend the rules to allow the superintendent and the assistant superintendent to say a few words. All those in favor? All
those opposed? Carries. Superintendent Bonaface, Mr. Petron. Thank you for having us here tonight and certainly thank you for taking an interest in one of the major concerns that's facing us financially as we are
living through the FY4 budget and anticipating the FY5 budget. Um, as you know, we received a proposal for the advanced math and science academy charter school that will affect at least the communities of Malro Hudson,
Maynard, and Clinton if it's approved. And if you don't have a complete proposal, we certainly can give you one. What we've been trying to do is talk to a number of people about the impact of
this charter school on Malro if it's approved. Mr. Petran has developed a primer basically of information regarding charter schools. And essentially it walks through and I think you all have copies of it. It walks through the
legislation that has created charter schools. Talks about the kind of charter schools. Talks about the number of students who may be going to charter schools. The priorities in enrolling students, student selection processes,
funding in particular, and the impact on a district as well as many other things. Clearly, we're here to talk about the potential impact on Malbor. There is absolutely no new money that comes with a charter school. What
happens in terms of financing a charter school and the phrase is often times used that the money simply follows the students. What happens is a new school is created by diverting already existing funds that
have up till now been part of the school district or part of the city's allocations. We're enormously concerned that when we calculate the tuition rate, and it's calculated for us, the cost at this
year's rate is $8,753. that would be going with each student who would be a resident of Malro in attending this particular charter school or any other charter school. The school that's proposed when it's fully enrolled
intends to enroll 966 students grades 6 through 12. And even if we look at a proportion of those students based on the population of each of the four affected communities, we would be looking at the loss of extraordinary
amounts of money. There has been to soften the blow of the loss of money a state reimbursement program in place kind of a transitional program which as councel Vent said was intended to be funded first at 100% for
the first year 60% for the second year 40 and then zero. The funding that's available currently in this year's budget is about 38% of that amount of money. So the impact would be immediate. There is absolutely nowhere to take it
except from those areas that would impact instruction. You can't take it from fixed costs. You can't take it from heating the building. You can't take it from the administration. You can't take it from debt that's owed by the city. It
has to come from services to students. I know that we've been talking about enrollment and oftentimes we look at charter schools or any other school that might come to the city as a relief while you're complaining Mrs. Bonaface about the kids that you have in the schools.
If a charter comes, wouldn't it be nice for you because we'll just take these kids and put them somewhere else. I'm extraordinarily concerned that when we looked at a master plan for the kids in our Marbor public schools and we knew that enrollment was increasing, we
understood that the city said we couldn't go forward with phase three of the master plan because we couldn't fund it at the moment. You're not going to have a choice in that. If we have a charter school in Malro, we're going to be funding a new school and we're going
to be funding it with existing resources that are now being used for the current students in Marro public schools. The proposal and again I don't think anybody wants to come out and say we're opposed to parents having options or parents making choices that are
appropriate for their students, for their children. It's very appropriate for parents to make choices in the best interests of what their children need. But one of the things that's in the proposal is a real disparaging I believe
of the quality of education that we have in Malro as well as in the other three communities. And I find that very offensive. I find that a proposal is put forward that says that professionals don't live in Malro. they choose not to
live here because of the low quality of education that's available. That's clearly not true. We don't have a low quality of education here at all. And yet, that's an executive summary and appears several times in the proposal that has been
at the Department of Education and clearly has made it to the final round of proposals. We also and I have to question the need the availability in Wister of the Mass Academy of Math and Science for students
who choose to focus extensively in these two areas and we have had a success of several students going there. We have had um a collaboration with Wista Polytech and this is with Wista Polytech. It's housed right on the college campus where students who really
want to focus in this area can spend part of their high school career there and extending and doing college work in their senior year. I'm concerned about not just the drain on finances, but I'm concerned about the
drain on involved parents. Whenever parents make a choice about where they want their children to go, it means that they've thought about it enough to say this versus that, I'm very concerned that in our schools, we may be faced
with parents making choices that may adversely impact what we have to deal with. And I want to also say that I'm concerned that when I look at the founding members and when I look at anybody who's listed by name in this
proposal, there's only one name of a Malra resident in this whole list of 15 people. Charter schools in my reading of the law in my understanding is for choice of peoples who are coming together around
common needs saying that I want to do something for these children. It can be groups of parents. It can be groups of teachers. It can be groups of community members. But clearly this proposal is from people who do not live in this
community who have decided to use our demographics and say here in fact is a good site. Let's include Malro Hudson Maiden and Clinton and because their scores are at the state average or
slightly above. We can in fact go in and say we can deliver a school and a curriculum and outcomes that are better than what they're currently delivering. I'm urging you and I hope that if you have questions that we can answer to
adopt a similar resolution to what the school committee adopted on November 12th because this school if approved and the approval would be in February school opening in September of 2004 with approximately 267 sixth and seventh
graders. It will have an enormously negative financial impact on us and whatever questions you have and certainly Mr. Petran has the answers in terms of the finances would be happy to entertain. >> Thank you, Mr. Bonaf. Any questions from
the council? >> Council Rossing. >> Thank you, Mr. President. Uh to Rosemary and John, excellent job on the package. I I do have questions and if you'll bear with me as I walk through some of the questions, uh you can enlighten me and
and see how I see how I did. It says that the final applications are due November 14th. Can I assume that our >> Yes, >> the charter school application is in with the state. >> It is. I called the Department of Education on Friday and I asked if they have received had received a final
proposal and they had. I also asked when I was going to get a copy of it because we have a chance to respond to it when there are public hearings. I to date have not received a copy. >> Okay, that brings my second point also in here. You mentioned that we have a comment period where we're allowed to um
not only city council school committee but also members of the community as well to respond and voice their opinions pro or con on this. So we don't have a a a date or range of dates when those comments are due yet.
>> There are um three public hearings that are scheduled the week of January 12th through the 16th. Um, we have not been told which particular date and location of the hearing that this particular
proposal will be heard at, but I have requested that information and I am certain I will get that information. um as soon as this proposal is assigned to one of those locations and one of those dates, we will get that out and that's a formal opportunity to respond to the
Department of Education who holds the hearing about our concerns and any objections or counters to what's in the proposal. >> Would the intent then be Rosemary to go to that public hearing? Absolutely. I mean, and I guess I'd be looking for some direction on your part whether it
should be just school committee, city council, residents. >> Well, my understanding is that um it's open to the public and clearly um I think that the more support that we can have the better off we would be. We
intend to go, school department in officials intend to go. I'm sure school committee members will be there. Clearly, if we can have city council and other interested parties attending, that would be a real bonus for us. >> Okay. So, I trust you'll keep this the council and the public updated as to how
this progresses. The the criteria that says what allows you to apply for a charter school, the three bullets on the the page, I look at those and it looks like we're doing we satisfy those. if if I'm
you know our MCCAST scores are are adequate but I don't know what the rules are for a charter school. >> Is it just >> you're talking about on the second page where it talks about or the first page >> uh the second page uh the three bullets it says new legislation limits the
number of charter schools they can grant and it says in one year they can say you know where districts didn't meet certain MCCAST scores. I thought we were doing well that >> um we we are and clearly we don't fall in any particular area that there is um
less than good performance but um we would have to speak to that at the hearing seeing what evidence they're bringing to say that we're not >> um housing of the charter school will it be in Malro Hudson May Clinton where
>> um we don't know yet I understand that the founding members are working with a real estate um person trying to find housing. >> Is there an advantage to it being in Malro versus another? >> It would be um it would be a greater um
loss to us of students. I believe if the um location were Marro simply for convenience sake um also transportation because clearly we would have to provide transportation to the same degree we do to the students that we're providing it
to now. So there would be an additional cost if we're located in Malro for transportation. the four cities and towns that were selected. Is that is that strategically done by the >> Yes, clearly >> school to make their proposal more
attractive. >> Well, when the charter schools first started, many of them were um in the cities and essentially they were started as an option for parents rather than sending their children to what were called failing schools, schools where the schools were well below the state
average. And since that time there has been and that's since 1993 pretty much since that time there's been a proliferation of charter schools and now you can see them coming to those areas that had not traditionally considered to have failing schools but choices. I
think that the towns were chosen very strategically because when you look at the proposal and you see uh compared to and it lists Lincoln, Sudbury, West Bro, North Bro, South Bro, um all of our surrounding neighbors. Well, we know
that our scores are not the same as each of those communities. We have a very different population from each of those communities and many of the founding members happen to be from those communities. um it would be very difficult to make a case for a need when
in fact the performance was up in the um very high range um of performance. Our schools are doing very well. Just to counter some of the information clearly it says lowquality education available. Malber public schools 10th grade MCCAST
in the last results we had 2003 only 8% of our students failed MCCAST on the first try in English language arts and only 8% of our students failed MCCAST in math on the first try. That's
pretty good. That means 92% of them passed on the first try. >> And I agree with you Rose that that's why as I read this it it puzzles me is how they can come up with that conclusion on page four determination of the average cost per student.
I don't I'm not sure how you got 40 million, but as you the breakdown that my math comes up that totals 36 million. So I'm I'm not sure how all the math adds up and I'm not here to challenge that tonight. I just want to get an understanding and I will talk to
uh John outside of the meeting to uh I just want to understand how we arrive at the dollar figures. um maximum impact to the uh to the city. The 966 students as I understand the plan the school starts first two years
grades six and seven and then each year it would add a grade on so that after seven years you'd have 6 through 12 built up. Now with grades six and seven that would be 267 students. How many
would be eligible from Malboro to fill that 267 266? >> It it's not proportional in the sense that um you know if if Malro has more students than Clinton or Hudson, they're going to proportionally divide it. If we're named as one of the districts that
are in this regional school, there's a priority for all of the students essentially. and unless there's an overabundance then they would have to do a pri priority so that even though there might be fewer students from Hudson or Clinton or Maynard that we were not
taking a spot of one of those students in terms of the priorities. So the sending districts those four districts have the first priority. Um trying to engage >> is going to be key as to how many students >> go to that school. We're not it's
located in Mal. The chances are there'd be more Mar Yeah. >> more pupils from Malibro versus Clint >> simply because of the ease of getting there. >> All right. Again, just going through I I thought there was a correlation between Marbor's population was 46% of the four
town cities and towns together. Therefore, Marble would be guaranteed 46%. for modeling purposes for an estimate we simply use that number >> because I'm trying to if it goes through the impact isn't $3 million the first
year the impact unless well it can't be because you we can't get to the 460 >> some odd students that this report >> if we had if we had 100 students the impact would be $850,000 the first year.
>> Okay. And now that being said, that would be and I and I know the arguments here, but I just want to make sure I get both sides of the arguments. You know, increased transportation cost, but then there's less people that are going to be on the buses, smaller class sizes in Malro because there won't be as many
people there. There's a >> I I know the fixed costs with heating, building, and all that, but I just want to make sure it's all portrayed. >> That's um leaving out some essential pieces. In most charter schools, there's not only a draw from the public schools,
but there's typically a draw from the privates. So, we may realize no decrease in class size whatsoever and no decrease in transportation because students who are electing to go to any of the private
schools could in fact go from St. John's. They well not the sixth or seventh grade, but they could go from IC for instance or St. Bernardets or from any of the parochial or private schools directly to the school. We would not be
seeing any decrease whatsoever. Also, home educated students, students who were in approved home education programs could in fact enter this school would see no change and the first year we wouldn't be charged the $8,573,
but the second and subsequent years we would. So there would be a bigger impact on second year for these students who were not coming out of Malbor public schools but from privates or homeschooling. >> Okay. >> And the state reimbursement piece that council vision brought up and you also
echoed I think is key. We're you know they're supposed to fund it 100% and they're only funding it at 38%. You know we know who's going to pick up the tab for that and they all reside here in Malbor. you know in the end the third year it's only a three-year trans it's a
transition program only so in the third year there is no impact funding at all so you have to be you have to adjust over that threeyear period so after 3 years there are no funds for those students going through >> I I have other ones John I guess I'd like to sit down with you and Rosemary
just to go over final final thought I understand the concept of the moratorum how successful do you think I other than making a statement saying, "Hey, we as a city of Marvel think we're getting fed something that, you know, we haven't had a chance to evaluate. You know, this
will go up to the state house." But what it's it's it's they're not going to put a moratorum because Malro asked for it. >> Well, the moratorium was passed by the Senate last year, not by the House. >> There's more strength, we believe, gathering, you know, for a moratorium.
>> Grab the mic, John. >> Sorry. the last year uh the Senate passed a moratorium, the House did not. And there's more strength being gathered um as time goes on with more communities being affected as to what's going what's occurring here. The issue really is a
funding issue. Um the same amount of dollars for more schools doesn't necessarily work out in this situation. So, we're hoping for we don't know if the moratorum will pass. There's been hearings. Um we've uh set uh Representative Leuga is setting up a meeting with us for Speaker Fineran, you
know, on this issue and we're hoping a mortorium can pass so that the funding issue can be decided. Certainly no one's looking to eliminate charter schools. Um what we're asking for is a fair playingground uh moving forward. There is an advantage here and it is advantage
for charter schools and a disadvantage for public schools when this occurs. And that's why I don't want to rule it out in its entirety, but I think the package you've presented, you know, there's some good information. I realize how much I got some homework to do to to get both sides of the stories here, and I look forward to working uh going forward with
you. And uh at this point, I would support that motion as well. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Urkus. >> Thank you, Mr. President. Um first, uh I appreciate the information and personally I'm in favor of competition. There's nothing been better in this
country than competition. So my first question I guess Rosemary is you're not you're happy for the competition. You just don't you want a fair competition. Is that correct? >> I again I have no difficulty with charter schools. My concern is the
diversion of funds that we've been relying on and there's more than what it costs to educate the child in the charter school that's going with the calculation of the per pupil cost. >> Right. Charter schools I think have been around what seven or eight years. The
funding has been the same. There's been many attempts to reallocate or change the funding and as you know whether the moratorium goes in or not has not been successful for a variety of reasons. But playing devil's advocate for a second
um if you actually we actually lost 359 uh students uh and you figure 25 students per class and I'm going to play the other side of the equation. That would be about 14 teachers that would lose their jobs and would have less of a overhead. And I'm
figuring uh between salary and uh benefits, which is probably way lower, 60,000 for the average. I have no idea, but I'm just figuring 60,000. >> 60 is a good number. >> Okay. Uh that'd be $840,000 less expenses that we would have just if if
this came into fruition and we lost 359, >> right? So, uh, and I'm just looking at it, saying a loss of $3.1 million, it'd actually be down at 2 point something. I mean, based on all figures, and I'm not arguing. Uh, on the other hand, in addition to that, keep hearing that the
schools are busting out, busting out. Back eight years ago, when the school committee came into the city council and I was here, they came in with the the the the three plan for the three schools and the mayor, city council, and everybody agreed. We didn't have the bonding money for three schools. We
bonded two schools at 36 or $37 million. We're up to a bond of uh probably 48 to $52 million. We only have $5 million left to bond. So there's uh no hope realistically that a third building could be built unless you're going to build it for less than $5
million and staff it. I mean uh that's realistic. So I'm looking at 349 additional students out of uh the middle school and the high school. It takes a big stress off of uh our problem of bonding another school. Takes a big
stress out of the school itself because you have less and and you get a better opportunity to have smaller classes. >> And that's true if the students literally come from our schools >> and there's no way of >> but if they come from privates and you're still paying for it, then there's really no relief to the space issue.
>> And I said I was playing devil's advocate. You're you're you're presenting a great case 100% your way and I was which I don't blame you. You'd be foolish not to and I was just bringing up the possibilities of figures on the other end and the different avenues that on the municipal side we're
looking at a total budget. It may be advantageous for us to say the charter school is the greatest thing in the world for us because it's going to relieve us of a lot of stress and a lot of money. >> Just on your two points the second point you're absolutely right. We we gain space in our schools, but your first point is we lose $3 million for a
teacher cost of $850,000. So what happens is we lose $2 million.2 >> 2.2 million lost someplace, which means we have to cut additional staff, which means larger class sizes. So the whole key to the building program was
basically implementing reasonable class sizes throughout the system, you know, which takes staff to do. But what we're going to have is going from class sizes of 20 to 25 in, you know, the elementary IE up, you know, adding 20, you know, 20% to those class sizes, you know, in
there. And now you get into the core of instructional services. No, >> I'm just I'm just bringing up the other side of the coin. >> I hear you and I'm just counting to think about. Thank you, Mr. President. That's all I have. >> Thank you, Council Toll. >> Mr. President, >> uh, in the item in the resolution
statement, um, pages 162 and 163, some of the items address the issue of cost, and and I'm in agreement with those, but there are three items that call, and these are they not numbered, but they happen to be three, four, and five.
the call for an investigation, a reputable research, a credible research. All of these seem to somehow challenge the integrity of these uh charter schools that are now in existence. And I in the earlier statement um I
heard um feelings were hurt over the impugment of Malro's uh quality of education. This seems to turn the tables and impugn and question if not attack the integrity of existing
charter schools. I'm just wondering whether we need those kinds of statements in the resolution. Everything else looks good to me. >> I'd love to address that if I could. Um essentially I think that it's very easy to you know capture a statement and um
you know listen to people. I talked to one founding member today and he said, you know, for the past 40 or 50 years, our schools have been declining. And it's easy to, you know, capture and hold that statement and truly believe it. You know, I don't believe it. I don't believe it at all. And I think that you
really need to go into um a close examination of, you know, who do we serve, who do we educate? And the conversation I had with this gentleman was 40 years ago I start I was starting high school and I can remember walking down Liberty Street and basically on my
way to school um I passed by a home and um in the home there was a student who um was a special needs student who was not attending school and uh at that time our special needs kids were not in school. Okay. Today, our special needs
kids are in school. And so, I think that public schools and schools in general have been continually widening their reach as to who we educate. And if in fact you say, well, the scores have remained steady or the scores have declined or the scores don't show the
improvement we expected, well, you're dealing with a different group of kids. You're dealing with more and more children. You read a nation at risk and then you balance it with the the manufactured crisis. And you have to look at all of the research and say what
does it really mean? And to the person who just reads the headline in the paper, you might think that education has failed our children. Education has not failed our children. As I said, I don't believe it at all. We have taken on the challenge in American public education of educating all of our
children, no matter who they are, as soon as they enter our doors. And then you see in this particular proposal, you know, the TIMs study, the TIMS study compared students who had formal education of 13 and 14 years to our students who had formal education of 12 years. And again, those international
studies. So you have to be a pretty sophisticated user of the research to be able to use it to your advantage. I think this reputable research or credible research really goes to if you compare the same kids,
I know you would find that there are no extraordinary results for charter schools. If in fact charter schools serve the diversity of the population we serve, I do not think that you are going to find that they have extraordinary
results in most cases. So credible research to assess student learning and effectiveness for student co cohorts just as what we're doing with No Child Left Behind. You break them down group by group, compare them to the Publix, the public's from the same sending
districts, and see if in fact there's a difference or if it's easy to say, well, because they're a charter and because they have this unique style of teaching or innovative methodology, that's what seems to be the public perception. It may not be true. We're not saying that
it's not true or it is true. It comes down to where's the research? Show me the research. And I think we have a right to ask that. And the other piece in terms of enrollment, which really talks about research, having talked to heads of charter schools essentially
numbers are inflated so that they can manage to get off the ground and pay the bills. They have an anticipated enrollment. And based on the anticipated enrollment, they send the bill to Morrow and say, "We have X number of kids. Pay us the money so that we can pay our
bills. It's an interest free loan." And so it really comes down to our enrollment. Can't be inflated. Every one of our students has a Sassid, an individual state number. If two districts count the same student, in fact, they ultimately get sorted
through. So the department of education says no Hudson has a student not Malro. We're concerned because the practices in charter schools that we have been told about and clearly have in fact continued have allowed the number to be very high so that the money can in fact be put
there and we're trying to verify it and again we're looking for a level playing field. If if there is choice then I think we all have to play by the same rules. >> Yeah. The only thing you left out was you've you've explained two of those three bullets very well and I'm I'm
convinced by your argument but uh the other one is about um reputable research to study the level and effectiveness of innovative learning strategies consistent with the charters of the schools. That one seems to be more of a direct
>> I think it comes down to delivering what you say you're going to deliver. I mean, one of the criteria that the charters are in fact evaluated on is their mission and their methodology. And it seems as if what happens in any
school is it that may change based on who your student body is. In fact, if you cannot carry out what your mission was because your population is a little bit different, then you really need to take a look at is there a match between
who I've got and what I need to do. This is a concept that we have with this proposal. The concept isn't in place yet. It needs to be implemented. And so that correlation between the two is something that really is not checked on. It comes down to the process of approval
and renewal of charters is largely a paper process with a minimal site visit of a couple of days somewhere in between. And what we're asking for, we have much more scrutiny. Public schools have enormous scrutiny. And so if you say this is what you deliver and this is
how you deliver it and these are your kids, then let's take a look at the match and the interplay of this. And so that's really what it goes to. You're welcome. >> Mr. Mr. President. >> Well, basically I was Rose going to say exactly what you did and I'm sure you have done much more research than I've
ever done on charter schools at this particular point in time, but I was going to state that in any of the research I've done, I do not see extraordinary results when it is a charter school. So, I think that's something you have to bear in mind. And when you talk about competition in a level playing field, I think that's
really important and a very valid point instead of, you know, I don't want to get into the intricacies of your document, but I believe that's truly important. We have a choice school. I mean, I'm from a choice school here in Marbor and the playing field is very level that that offers a different type of educational setting. And I think when
when we look at what we're dealing with as a city and I look at the names on there and the fact that you pointed out we're not dealing with marble people bringing this forward which does concern me and it does concern me that the document is filled with the insinuation
or the outright statement that we offer an inferior education and I find that personally insulting because and I think it should be insulting to anyone in the council in the audience or viewing who has chosen to send their children to the Marorrow
public schools because we would not choose bad schools for our own kids and that that's the part of it I think and you know that's more the philosophical end besides all the research that's going into it. So while I am not opposed to competition, I don't believe anyone is, I am opposed
to it when we're elevating one per one school to this level and then saying another school's at this level and it's totally unfair. Beside the fact that the funding is not there and it's just with all the mandates that we deal with, it's nice to say we're going to have these
things and now we're only going to uh fund it at 38%. It it's a killer to any school system. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. President. Um I don't I don't know about the language being too strong. Do I do I get a little
aggravated? Um confidence is a wonderful thing, but arrogance I think has gone a little too far in this one. Right after coming to the US, I discovered that the school education level here is disastrously bad in many respects. So I felt I should try to uh contribute to
attempt to change the situation which otherwise may lead to transforming the US to a third world country. Um so does do I get a little aggravated? Yeah, I get a little aggravated. I get aggravated because these people are not only guests of our community, they're
guests of our country. And when people come into my home as guests and they tell me I live in a dump and they have complaints about my home, I get aggravated. Maybe we pick on each other as a family member around here, but when someone
from outside comes in and starts picking on us, yeah, I get a little upset. So, you know, it it's one of those things. Again, if I can be clear, I'm not against charter schools. I'm probably against this charter
school, but at minimum, all I'm looking for is a little bit of breathing time to try to absorb some of the cost that we're talking about here. Um, and with that, uh, I don't know if, uh, someone can
answer this, but in and looking at the calculations for the determination of the average cost per student, um, which it came out to the $8,700, we include in that a lot of the soft costs of the system, uh, the retirements, the
health insurance, that type of thing. But then when you went to the maximum financial impact, we only used the core cost of the system where you know we argue back and forth whether our system cost the city $36 million or $42
million. I keep saying it's 42 million >> but so they only use for for the min maximum uh uh cost they only use the smaller number. Am I looking at that correctly? >> Absolutely. counseling.
>> So, I don't know, maybe this is how they learn in Europe. Maybe that's the problem, but that's not how we learn around here. Thank you, Mr. President. And I would like to say that if if I'm ready to support this tonight and approve this tonight. If it's the pleasure of the uh the council to refer
it to committee and come right back with it at the next meeting, I don't know if that's going to mess anything up, but um if if the council would rather do that, that's fine. But I'm ready to approve this tonight. >> Councelor Katz, >> thank you, Mr. President. Uh actually, I would agree with with Councelor Vig. In
fact, I would be willing to support it tonight and and moving it along quickly. Um the fact that somebody is coming in and taking shots at our school system, I don't think is as fair as as you articulated. And there's a lot of good information in this package. And I wish
uh the residents of the city could take a look at this package and I think they would would they line up uh almost 100% behind uh Mr. Petrin and Mrs. Bonafice as well. Uh some of the information in here about our schools under higher scores in Marble. Our MCCAST scores
continue to rise in spite of the fact that we face a large population of second language learners. Last year only three students failed to pass the MCCAST at the 10th grade and all three were second language learners new to our country with special education individual plans. Um so we are doing
good. We are getting people pass as the MCCAST scores indicate at the high school level. Another point in here information that should be passed along to these people who think we're not doing a good job in our school system. The number of advanced placement courses has increased dramatically. We
now offer 13 different AP courses. Another comment. Last year, our SAT scores were the highest ever and surpassed state and national averages with 78% of the students taking them and over 80% of our gradu and over 80% of our graduating students went on to
further their education. Again, the numbers are good. The numbers are getting better. These people are doing a great job and continuing to improve our school system. It's not fair to take a shot uh at our schools. Is it okay to do it internally? Yes. Do we all want to
continue to improve our schools? Yes. Uh but the way it's coming out with this charter school, the answer is no. They're unfair comments. Uh this information is something I hope you can somehow make public to people. Let them get an opportunity to put it'll be posted to our website or something of
that nature. And if it is, maybe John just give the website so people out there can maybe take a look at it. >> Yes, we'll have it posted within two days to our website. Um this is also available, you know, through our office. I can email the full document to anybody. And our website is
www.mmarro.k12.mma. us. >> And if you didn't get that, I'm sure it'll be in the newspapers tomorrow for those willing to to read the stories. Um, question for you. Uh, Hudson, Maynard, and Clinton uh, are also being named as part of this charter school. What are those communities doing? Are we
shephering and and gathering the troops, so to speak, to make sure that we we are as one and we are going in stronger than just Marvel alone? >> Thank you very much, Councelor Katz. Um, when I received the proposal, the first thing I did was I picked up the phone and I called Shelley Berman and Hudson. I called Mark Masterson and Maynard and
I called Ed Filin and Clinton and I said, "Have you received this proposal?" They all had um I was alarmed when I saw it and essentially I wanted to talk right away. We ended up um getting together um
shortly afterwards and Mr. Petran met with us um as well trying to talk about the financial impact in particular. We all are learning from one another because just as councelor Naraki said you know doing research on charters when
you've never really had to deal with before is really you know a very big um learning curve and fortunately Mr. Petran has had experience with it when he was in Harvard. So he's been a tremendous asset as far as getting the information very quickly. But we are
unified in the four communities doing outreach and doing the same kind of thing. Number one, let's do the dollars and cents picture. And that was the first piece because that's clearly, you know, a hook in terms of so let's just imagine the the school gets approved.
What's it going to cost us next year? So we started with that. Um we're also doing outreach. Um we went to the state house and testified essentially for the uh in front of the joint uh commission on education committee on education. Um we just came from um the school council
at Kain school tonight and we're planning to go to all the school councils and the PTO's and just explain the same kind of information, the same documents that you've received and the other communities are doing similar things. They are speaking to their legislators. They are speaking to their
school councils, their PTOs. They're trying to kind of shake the bushes and say, "Is there anybody in our communities who feels this way?" You know, and and again, it's it's very difficult when you don't have a grassroots in your community that's saying, "This is what we want. This is
what we need. This is what we demand, but you're you're trying to do a public education piece." And so, we're doing it with um with all four. Well, I I would urge you to continue to meet with all those individual PTO's uh and make sure that the residents
understand just how important this is. Uh and the website, I think, will be helpful. And make sure you get the information out. I'm sure you will as to when these public hearings are uh so we can show up uh at mass. Again, I don't think anyone, even yourselves, I believe you're not against charter schools.
You're just against unfair competition. And I think that's what this is all about. And to councelor Vig's point, uh, I would be supporting it a move. If people want to get this out tonight and approved tonight, uh, I'm all for that as well. >> Thank you, >> Mr. President. Nancy, >> thank you. Um, I had the opportunity to
attend the presentation that the, uh, the originators of the of this charter school had before the u before the uh, Rotary Club. And um, I came away with my own personal opinions of why the school was formulated. and I don't really wish
to to bring him out here. Um there is one question I really have is in the funding process. Okay, say if we they state uh uh that they have uh 220 kids that are going to attend the
charter school, when do they send us the bill? At the beginning of the year or at the end of the year? >> The state takes from our chapter 78. So at the beginning of the year, they take a portion of based on their estimated
numbers that they estimate back in April. So I'm not sure how you can determine what your population will be in September. So the the first payment of chapter 78 is reduced um by I think it's 1/ half in the first payment. The other payments are then adjusted based
on actual um student enrollment within that school. So in essence, we're going to have uh they'll their estimates are uh tend to be high is from what I understand and so our chapter is 78 gets reduced more upfront which is a funding
problem uh for uh the city moving forward. So it becomes a cash flow issue. >> See I you know I take a look at this and okay so they reduce our chapter 70 monies down by say $1.5 million. Okay. >> Um and they state that they have x amount of students there. Then you find
that some of these kids that are going to an advanced math and science academy uh find that they can't cut the mustard there and decide that they're going back to the public school system. So in other words, they now have a nutrition rate going back to the public school system. We now have to make room for them and we
haven't planned for these kids. Okay? So all of a sudden we get a hundred kids back out of this. Not saying that this would happen, but in this situation now we have to we have to refill these classrooms and you now have these kids going into rooms that are already have a
a very high number of kids in. You know, this this will actually cause more problems back in our own system than in theirs. Uh then at the end of the year, I imagine the state will not will deduct from that, you know, from from that amount of money. But if they've budgeted
for it, you know, you kind of wonder where are they going to come up with that extra money? Do you have any idea what they would do at this point? No. I mean, basically, they just threw a chapter 70. I'm curious to see how transportation and special education works. As you saw from
the primer of special education, if they determine a student, they cannot educate a student properly within their system, they don't have to send that student back to our program. the parents can choose to go to an outside placement from that school of which we have no
decision in but the bill comes back to us. So if they go to an outside placement that they determine a day placement can cost $50,000 and a residential placement can cost well over $100,000 for a typical residential placement. They make that decision. The
entire bill comes to us and we have no say in that decision. So I'm more curious. I think those are the type costs that could you know that are unplanned um that could play more havoc with our budget year um than the flow of the money. My understanding is by the
end of the year the number of students are accounted for and at the end of the year the actual amount that goes to the charter school is corrected by the end of the year and so it becomes a cash flow problem for us during the year but by the end of the year the number is
correct. Again, my concern becomes special education on the outside placement pieces that we may educate them inhouse. As you know, we've been bringing students back in house here in Malro. We've been expanding our in-house programs at a much reduced cost from the
outside placements, but if they don't have that capability there, the parents have the choice to go to outside placement before coming back to an in-house program in Malbor. If if if a sped a sped plan is uh you know if we have a sped plan that's assessed uh for
a student presently this year do they have to follow that sped plan? They do not have >> no they'll determine their own sped plan going into that school and they can revise that sped plan based on their needs not based on what we can offer.
So in essence they're making the decisions we're footing the bill and have no power in the decision-m process. So in other words, they can say if a student goes to their their their school uh is not doing doing well, they can
decide that they are special education and they can then put them in an out place outplacement and send us the bill. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you very much. >> What's the pleasure of the council? >> Motion to approve, Mr. President. >> Make a motion to approve order number uh
16. All those in favor, all those opposed carries. >> Back to eight. >> Mr. President, just before they leave, um on a on a on a on a nice note, I just want to congratulate the Marvel girls
volleyball team for winning the state championship on Saturday. And I think that they should be commended, Coach Leprey and all the girls. And I it's a and it's a good thing that can happen in the school system. Thank you very much. very proud of them. >> Quite an accomplishment.
>> Yes, it is first time ever. >> Item number eight, >> is a communication from the planning board. At its meeting on Monday, October 20th, 2003, the planning board took the following action. On a motion made by Mr. Hansen, seconded by Mr. Coy, it was duly voted to recommend the city council
accept the proposed change to zoning for the property at Lock Drive with the understanding that it appears to be an appropriate use for the land. >> This been advertised. >> Uh Lock Drive is already >> This is in urban affairs.
>> Y to urban. >> Does it have to be advertised? >> We did approve it. No, it turned off. >> Okay. This is presently in urban affairs. So, >> item number nine >> is a special permit application of Selco Partnership DBA Verizon Wireless for a
wireless communication facility at 860 Boston Post Road East. >> Mr. President, >> Council Pope, >> can you refer this to wireless set a public hearing for January and advertise? Okay. >> Motion is made and seconded to send this to the wireless committee and we'll set a date at the second meeting of January
for a public hearing. All those opposed cars. >> Item 10, >> minutes of the planning board October 20th. >> Yeah. Items 10 through 13 and item 15 are minutes and various reports. Motion
to accept and place on file. >> Motions made to accept and placed on file items 10 through 13. All those in favor? All those opposed? Carries. Item 14. >> Mr. President. >> Yes. Councelor, >> these are the claims. Motion to send to the solicitor. Motion is made and seconded to send the claims to the
solicitor. All those in favor? All those opposed? Carries. Items number 15. >> Mr. President, that's a straggler motion to accept and place on file. >> Motion is made to accept and place on file. All those in favor. All those opposed carries. Reports of committee. Council vision.
>> Thank you, Mr. President. Finance committee met tonight. Took up order number 0310215. Transfer of $50,000 from the overlay account. um to two separate accounts. Uh motion was made and seconded to approve
50 0310192 uh was a request to transfer $100,000 from computer hardware to computer software that was approved 50. Uh there was a request for revolving fund 03102
that was tabled in committee. Also 03102, a revolving fund for the um Fairmont Hill that was approved for the Fairmont Hill project. Um 4:1
uh and the language for the Easterly treatment plant was stricken uh in that amended approval. Order number 031044 was also a revolving account for the board of health and that was uh there
was a motion to deny that carried 50 and 031099 is a transfer from 7 for 732,95522 from open space accounts on our annual payments. uh that was approved and
amended to 153,96803 and that amended amount was approved uh 50 uh 0310231 was a communication from the city solicitor on outstanding litigation issues and there was a motion made and
seconded to accept and file and I would ask for suspension of the rules on 0310 1099 the transfer for the open space account Mr. Item number six, council vision. That's only on item number six.
>> Yes. >> All those in favor of suspending the rules. All those opposed carries. >> It's order 031099 which was a request by the mayor for transfer of $732,95522 from stabilization open space accounts
to other open space accounts. stabilization open space mellow farms in Mount Ward. The recommendation of the committee is to amend it to $153,968.3 and to approve the current year payments only and the vote was 5 to zero. Can
>> I just can you can you just explain why you changed that? Uh there was a question about the outstanding the balance in the account uh because of the purchase on uh the boat house that we approved uh two months ago. Um and with
that taken out of the account, there wasn't enough funds in the account. >> Um so that's why it was only done for this year. When the transfer comes from the building department open space fund to that, hopefully there's enough by the end of the year to do all the payments. These are already committed payments.
This is something that's already been approved. This is a transfer to make the payments or the obligations of the city. >> Motion is made and seconded to approve the transfer. All those in favor? All those oppos. Any other reports of committee? >> Mr. President, um it's not a committee
report. I just wanted to announce that Urban Affairs is going to meet November 24th at 7:00 and we are going to review um the order concerning the amendment for Mr. Pharaoh's rack and roll
and that's the um a the age the conditions on age of um patrons. We're also going to review the sign request for Mr. Pharaoh. We are also going to be um discussing util the
utilization of the fire station and lastly the route 20 project as as far as the lake Williams area. So those four items will be on the agenda for that evening. >> Any other reports of committee?
>> Well, I'm going to >> Any other reports committee? Okay. Item number 17 >> is order number 0310176 regarding the reappointment of Lynn FA to the historic district commission
committee informed of Miss Fa's withdrawal of the appointment with PL recommendation to place on file. >> So >> motion is made and seconded to approve the recommendation to place on file. All those in favor? All those opposed carries. Number 18
>> is order 0310177 reappointments of Lynn Foust and John Busk to the historical commission. Mayor informed of Mr. Buick's withdrawal recommendation to committee to approve the reappointment of Lynf 3 to zero. >> Move to recommendation of committee. >> Motion is made and seconded to approve
Lyn Fost. All those in favor? All those opposed? Carries. >> 19. >> Order number 0310178. The reappoint of Priscilla Ryder as the conservation officer. The recommendation of personnel committee was to approve three to zero. >> Move to recommendation of committee. >> Motion is made and second to approve the
committee's recommendation. All those in favor? All those opposed? Carries. >> Item number 20 >> is 0310188a regarding funds retained by the CDA for affordable housing purposes. The recommendation of the affordable housing committee was to request the mayor to
issue a request for proposals to devel to develop a plan for the implementation of legislation and methods to convert existing affordable housing to so-called affordable units that will meet the guidelines established under Massachusetts General Law Chapter 40B
and the order still remains in committee. >> Council recommendation of committee >> do what? >> That's still in committee. It says here is that >> we're going to request the mayor that we >> Okay. And you're sending it up to the mayor. Okay. >> All those in favor of the committee's recommendation. All those opposed cars.
Thank you. >> 21. >> Mr. President. >> Council. >> Mr. President, I would like to request a suspension of the rules and um to read a request from Attorney Burggeron to extend
the U date for this particular permit because Attorney Burgerson and our city solicitor are still working on the conditions and instead of having them bring them down to us tonight in handwriting and with crossouts and scribbles, I felt it was only right to have those conditions in the proper form
for you to review. um before the next meeting. >> So if I could have a suspension this request for an extension. >> Motion is made and seconded to approve council manaki's request. All those in favor
>> table next meeting. >> Just until the next meeting. >> Till the next meeting. >> Yeah, I'll read that. >> Could I can I have the suspension to read it? >> Oh yeah. Okay. >> Yes. Go ahead. >> Is that okay with everybody? Go ahead. >> Thank you. This is the request if you would choose to grant this extension. I
here hereby request that the city council agree to attend to extend the deadline for action on the special permit application of East Main Street Dunkin Donuts Incorporated to Tuesday, December 2nd, 2003. We do have a meeting on Monday, December 1st
and I would ask that the council support that. >> Any questions on that? >> All those in favor? All those opposed? Carries. Thank you. >> Motion to adjurnn. >> Motion is made and seconded to the chairman. All those in favor,
I want to call a meeting of the um legislative and legal for uh December 1st at 7:00. At that time, I want to finish up the fees. The fees will I want to legislative and legal December 1st. >> All those in favor of adjourning. All
those opposed carries.