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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=SUcQYucCxrs

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This is a meeting of the climate resiliency committee to cover order number 26-10009726. Uh communication from council Dave Ducet regarding requests for the city to investigate geothermal energy. Uh there's some handouts and there's some stuff that's also been posted on the

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website. Uh there's some updates that need to be done for the data on the website that'll show up in the next uh council meeting. Um but uh what I wanted to do really is just go through some uh general ground

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loose issues for now. Uh I'm doing this through PowerPoint because basically uh I organized my own notes in PowerPoint so it made it easier to do that. Um so the goal of the the series of meetings is to develop proposal for a

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feasibility study. Uh I expect multiple meetings um with different speakers and specialists based upon who shows up and what we need. Um but the structure of the meeting we get the agenda we have new business old business prove the minutes all that this is an ongoing

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series of meetings. Um and if Mike correct me if I'm wrong if this is not the appropriate approach. So um but uh you know the assumption is basically that we will have multiple meetings with different speakers uh specialists uh probably plan a few meetings ahead. I'd

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like to try to do meetings every other week or so and try to get things paced that way. Um and I think the uh fundamental assumption here is that basically the cost of getting energy to us is cheaper than the energy itself. And we got to start developing our own local energy and fossil fuels seems to

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be a likely oh sorry uh thermal exchange networks would be a likely candidate for us to uh heat and cool our homes. So hold on. Um, for today's blue knit, uh, new business, uh, Black Swan Lab will be

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doing a presentation when they show up. Um, there's other actions I've been discussing, but hadn't put it into the draft of the editorial, but having the non-binding referendum in 2027 ballot and getting that in place to get

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the view of the people of the city of whether or not they want to do something like this. um and basically you know the infamous search for funding uh for the feasibility study etc. So we don't have to cover a lot of the cost. Um the use

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of AI, I've been toying with AI just doing research with this and I found it very effective and to if if there's a structure for a feas proposal for a feasibility study. You could feed it into AI and it'll give you the first draft. I'm not saying it's the final

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draft, but it will give you a first draft that you can then walk through, edit, and change as necessary. Um and uh the other part of AI is actually just to if we can capture geological data of Malber, feed it into an AI model and ask

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them where to drill the wells. So um there's opportunities with the technology I think we need to be keeping an eye on. Um Oops. And that's basically the three slides that I had. Um, you know, when we get

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the minutes, we'll go through that in the next for the next meeting. Um, for the three of us, are we comfortable having a meeting in like two weeks? Two weeks from Tuesday, two weeks from today. Are you guys available for that?

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That'd be the 21st. Yeah, >> I'm good. >> You get both of you guys. So, I'm getting confirmation. >> We have the council meeting on the 20th. >> On the 20th. That's fine. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Mr. Chair. >> Yes. >> Thank Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah. I I

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mean, I can confirm I would be available in the evening of the 21st. I think just, you know, so long as we know kind of who's coming, who's presenting, what Yeah. Right. All that sort of stuff ahead of time, I would be comfortable with that. >> Yep. >> Yep. 7 p.m. >> Uh 7. We'll do 7 p.m. Yep.

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>> Dave, you're here. >> You are here. Excellent. >> Yeah. just planning the next meeting after this one. We're meeting in two weeks again. So for folks online, uh the folks

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in Black Swan Labs just showed up. So um do you want to start with the presentation now? You good? Okay, let me switch controls for a minute. slideshow up there. >> Slideshow up on the top. I guess

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there's the remote such a sense of power. Um, >> you can stand there with the mic. >> Okay, awesome. Thank you so much. Um, hey, uh, pleased to talk to you all. Thank you so much for the the honor of being here. Um, I'm Audrey Schulman. Uh,

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I'm the executive director at Black Swan Lab. Uh, we do practical solutions uh to solve, you know, to reduce climate change. Um, and we're funded by the Bar Foundation. Cool. Um, so I don't know if you've

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heard of thermal networks, but the uh I'll explain what they are in a second, but they um the very first one installed ever in the world by gas utility is uh installed in Framingham. Um and

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uh it is uh it's quite exciting and I was lucky enough to be one of the major people to to help ha make it happen. Um, no. Okay, good. Um, this is a thermal network. Uh, to give you a better idea

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what it is, it is uh heat pumps. If you know what heat pumps are, they're basically like air conditioners that can run forward or backward. So, they provide heating and cooling. But instead of pulling that temperature from the air outside, which as you can imagine is

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very volatile in temperature, they pull temperature from pipes under the ground where it's way easier to control that the temperature of the water. So the heat pumps connected can always work at their greatest efficiency. And so because of that, they are very very

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efficient. Um there. No, there we go. So they can p they get that temperature of the water which is just not over not hot, not cold. It's in an ambient temperature range between like

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40 and 90°. So it's just keeping it sort of you know it would be cold almost to your touch uh by running the water either through bore holes in this case or getting that temperature from wastewater.

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Um this is an installation going in in Syracuse that will be owned by National Grid and the city the county in Syracuse I think will be selling the wastewater temperature to National Grid. um and or that you can get that thermal

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energy from uh waste heat such as from an ice rink. So an ice rink you can imagine is always pulling wants lots and lots of cold so it would return the water into the that that pipe hotter and that heat can then go to homes down the

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street. Every ice rink produces enough temperature to heat 50 homes. Yeah, it's a shame to waste. >> We get 12 ranks in Marboro. >> Exactly. >> That doesn't count the name.

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>> Um, so you've you've got a lot of this right here. Um, so thermal networks are being installed uh everywhere across the continent. In Europe, they're installing systems of 10,000 units at a time.

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Uh, so they're they can go very large. Um there's some of them sorry for the >> quick question on the other uh go back a minute. >> Um what's the definite why are there different colors? Is there >> some of them are owned by utility you know there uh you can go to that link

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it's building decarbonization coalition okay >> and look I think some of them are owned by utilities some of them are owned by universities some of them are wastewater some of them are waste heat some of them are you know so it's different types of uh thermal networks

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um so one of the things they can do is radically reduce because they're so efficient our electric peaks as we move more and more towards electricity for everything. Um, so this is ISO New England's prediction of how much

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electricity New England will need in the future. Um, and on the left, how much that might cost to increase our transmission that much. So 25 billion at the top. So the more we can bring that peak down,

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the lower our electric bills will be. And that's just transmission. It's going to be much more also to do distribution system. So, uh here's Oh, wait. I gotta get hold. Okay, there we go. Here's uh a

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estimate on how much thermal networks can save. Each of these lines, each of these are are pathways towards that electrification towards all of our buildings using only electricity, different methods using airsource heat

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pumps, etc. And thermal networks have the lowest peak use and so they can save us an enormous amount not only in transmission but also in distribution system and all of that all of us get get you know electric customers we're the

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ones who pay. So what this means is thermal networks can reduce how much our electric bills rise in the future which Lord knows everybody would be happy about after last winter. So in back up a

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so in this one in particular um what is the ramp up of thermal networks in doing that on the existing customer base I mean what's your buildout assumption to make >> so that's by 2050 this is for New England this is done by E3 which is you

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know and they were assuming uh I think 22% of homes would go to thermal networks and 49% of businesses >> 22% of homes and 49% of businesses. Um, and so that is, you know, but any

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thermal network, each thermal network will reduce your electric peak in comparison. >> Oh, absolutely. >> To airsource heat pumps, etc. Anybody have airsource heat pumps here? >> Um, I I do too. They're they're uh great

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and this is better. Um so your thermal energy bills uh they will be so this is with gas furnace. This is by applied economics clinic. Uh the next one is uh the your annual

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heating bill uh for the average Massachusetts home with thermal network using the heat pump rate that we currently have. But we're probably moving to a version two of the heat pump rate. And so the thermal network charge annual heating charge would be even

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lower. So uh that is if it was if it's done this is a prediction by applied economics clinic if it's done by a gas utility and that's a for-profit gas utility. But you've got another option open

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which is uh you could have them installed by your municipality which is nonprofit, right? You don't need to pay back the investors. Denver is doing it uh is installing thermal networks now. They're going to do so with wastewater as well

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as with bore holes. Boise, Idaho has a system that's been functioning since the 70s, I think maybe the 80s. Uh, West Union has had one for 20 years. Uh, and Ann Arbor, Michigan is currently installing one. So, this is an option

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available to you. And that would reduce the am costs for all of your residents in comparison to a for-profit utility doing it. But for-profit utilities are always an option. Yes. So I know one of these and I forget which

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one it was um might have been the West the ones that's been been there for a while. It seems that in these cases, some of the older networks, are they continu are they expanding the network or is it staying the way it is >> because it seems that they don't seem to expand much.

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>> And uh Karen's here too and so she'll correct me if I get any of this wrong and she can look stuff up as we talk. But I believe uh Boise if I remember correctly is expanding and uh and West Union has been bringing more not expanding the loop if I remember

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correctly but has been adding more customers to it and the more they do that the lower cost it is for each customer >> because you've already installed the system and so this the customers are paying back for the installation and the operations and maintenance. So, the more

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you have on the system. >> So, the town does the I was just going to ask that does the operation and maintenance of the system as well. >> Yeah. In uh West Union, I think they have a nonprofit uh that they subcontract to to do that. Um or for-profit, I think it's for-profit or

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they call it a for-profit and it doesn't seem to make much profit. Um and uh Boise, I think they they have the city do it and you know, we can put you in contact with the you know, either one if you want. Uh and Ann Arbor is is just

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installing now and it's using a Department of Energy grant. >> Okay. >> Um >> a number of cities nearby that have uh utilities. The city, the municipality runs this the utilities. >> Yes. Yeah. I mean, and you run your water and your sewer, I assume. So, and

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it would be very similar to that. Um, and if you do it, you're not gonna uh you it'll be much you won't change the energy the thermal bill much as opposed to for-profit utilities potentially.

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Um, so there's a lot of Massachusetts municipalities who are interested in thermal networks. Um, and that's partly because the tax credit exists still, not for solar, not for renewable, but it does for for thermal networks on bore

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holes. Um, and so these are all the feasibility studies of different Massachusetts towns uh who want uh to do to go to thermal networks. Um, and that IRA tax credit is

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30 to 50% of the cost. So that's a chunk of of potential savings right now. >> So the 30 to 50% is taken over for how many years? >> Uh it's just the cost of the installation.

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>> So if you spent $10 million, you would get $5 million back up to $5 million back. >> Right. But how many years does it take to depreciate? I went through all this when I had my solar panels installed. >> Oh. >> I got threeear depreciation schedule for the solar panels. Uh, so depreciation.

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>> I'm not sure I'm going to get the depreciation right. Um, but as I understand it, it's a direct pay at the so it never leaves the municipality's pocket. >> So, so it's not depreciation. It's like just >> it's a grant >> basically. Yeah.

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>> Okay, >> Mr. Chair. >> Yes. >> A quick clarification. >> Oh, sure. >> Thank you. Um, what is the how long is that funded through? >> I think it's 2035. It's 33. >> 33. Okay. >> Thank you. >> We're gonna have the the person in the

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back will correct me each time I'm wrong. >> That's great. Thank you. >> Um, so in Marboro, you got two wastewater treatment plants, not one, but two. Um, and you've got the

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largest ice rink in North America. Uh, and you've got the ground everywhere. So, you've got three really great options to get that thermal energy from. Um, and so let's look at them a little more closely. Uh, right now, you

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know, here's one of your wastewater treatment plants up in the corner there. Uh, and you can see there's a lot of buildings nearby. U, most of them are commercial. You've got, if I remember correctly, about 3.5 million gallons per day through that

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wastewater treatment plant. So that means uh you have enough for about you know approximately 300 homes which is probably several of those large commercial buildings. Um >> 300 homes will get my neighborhood right down in the bottom.

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>> Yeah, there you go. You just have to get the pipe there. Um, right now there's a Department of Environmental Protection grant to do both the feasibility study, the design and the installation of that wastewater energy recovery

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system. So, that's just the the thermal source. You'd still have to install the distribution system and there'd still be the building conversions. >> Um, uh, and that D grant is a rolling

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grant. they've got only $5 million. So once that's used up, that goes. You can't you can't that offer is not there anymore. So I recommend you look at that first. Um >> is it a rolling grant period or does it

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refresh every year? >> It's uh just the first time they've ever offered it. I don't think, you know, they don't think they have plans to offer it again. >> Okay. >> Uh here's the New England Sports Center. You got a lot of homes across the

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highway. Uh that's again because you got 12 ice rinks there. In my rough figuring, you've got enough to heat 600 homes because it's 50 homes approximately per ice rink. So there's a lot of homes. Or you could

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do on this side, >> but they are for profit. They would have obviously need to get their permission to >> Oh, yeah. >> They would make money off of this. Yes, they could get revenue from it. And I looked up on the web and you know, Lord knows if it's right, but it looks like

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one of their HVAC units might be uh fairly old. >> So that might be a time that they might be very interested in replacing it and moving to the system where they're selling their heat.

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>> Mr. Chair, >> yes, thank you. uh what is the forgive my ignorance on a heat pump and how these networks um work but what is the capacity what's the distance for something like this to >> be functional right you point up to those homes and to the commercial but

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how far >> uh so um the the Framingham installation is a onem loop approximately uh there's other installations that are bigger the frame you know there you want to if generally you want to have some thermal

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source uh every you know half mile something like that so you can bring things back to temperature if you need to. >> Okay, thanks. >> Um >> yes, they're they're modular so you can install one and then grow over time. They're like Lego blocks

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>> even though each block is a well that's 3 to 600 feet deep, >> right? >> Uh yes, if you do bore holes, they're they're 300 to 600 feet deep, >> right? or or if you're able to tap into um a sewer tap or something like that, >> right? There could be a sewer

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interceptor in there too, etc. >> So, one of the things that we talked about is that the network itself because it's all under the frost line, the network actually provides a thermal uh register as well. So, as it if it

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travels further, it's still in ground temperature. So the, you know, if it comes back warm and if it travels half a mile to a well, it may actually be at ground temperature before it gets to its destination because of the length of the pipes, it's still underground. So

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>> yeah. >> Do you mind speak to the thermal battery aspect of it? >> Yeah. And it's >> You want to come up to the mic and speak? >> Okay. >> Um, so one of the things is the water itself has an enormous amount of thermal storage in it, right? if you if that

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water there's a an installation at Colorado Mesa University with over 100,000 gallons of water in that loop that's over a mile long. And so if that water of 100,000 gallons uh in that big

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pipe running around the system is at 90° um that's an enormous battery thermal battery that you can pull the temperature off at any time. It's it's equivalent to many many you know therms of gas and I could go I

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don't have the numbers off the top of my head but you can just it's a giant battery. >> Um and if you did it to the to those uh businesses instead each of them use energy in a very different way. So one of them would to be taking heating and making the water colder. The next one

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would be taking cold maybe and making the water, you know, like it they would go back and forth and you'd get simultaneous load cancellation also, right? That ice rink to the homes kind of concept. Um, uh, and here's Boston Scientific,

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which uh I believe uh Dave, you've talked to them or something and they might >> someone talked to them and they expressed interest in putting geothermal in. Yes. >> So they they might do bore holes. There's a lot of buildings around them. There's some schools etc. And that way they might take on the

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cost of doing the bore holes and you just do the distribution system or you choose your utility to do the distribution system. Um, >> so this could be something that say could go to the hospital, which is the emergency department at UMass, or it

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could go to the high school and the uh um the the elementary school uh good now brothers up in front. >> Yeah, you're missing the dental care place in the corner. Um yes, >> you could you could do it many different ways. >> Yeah.

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>> Um and this would be, you know, you'd want to do uh an engineering study to try to figure this out. Um, but if there's a lot of different ways forward here, I would talk to Boston Scientific, check and make sure they're interested in this concept and

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then potentially do a feasibility study. I would go to New England Sports Center and ask like, "Hey, is your HVAC gold? Do you want revenue?" >> Um, and I would uh fill out the Massachusetts D grant for wastewater energy recovery. We will help you. We're

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already doing that with uh for South Hadley and uh potentially for you know we we'll find out but maybe for for other towns. Um so we are happy to do that >> Mr. Chair. >> Yes. >> In the area of Boston Scientific we have

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a capped landfill as well as an ice skating rink right across the street. >> Really? >> Yes. It's a Naven rink. It's one rink, but um council n >> that right that >> curious on this athletic field >> that right building right next to it. >> No way there.

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>> Yeah. >> You're just curious on capped landfills. Can they be utilized in any way for this type of energy? >> I would think uh you'd have to go through uh so you probably don't want to do bore holes on the capped land because

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you don't want to go through the cap and break it. Um, and >> no, I don't. >> Is all of that cap land? The parking lot, the >> parking lots possibly. >> Yeah, >> those areas

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the right. >> All of that is kept. Okay. >> Just curious. >> I'm not an engineer, but I assume that that might be a difficult that might be a problem. >> Just the edges maybe or the parking lots you were saying for the cap landfill. If there's parking lots there and that

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aren't capped, >> yeah, then I then I would assume you would not want the bore holes anywhere in the capped land. However, for our understanding, >> uncapped land should be fine. >> Yeah. >> Good. >> I was talking with Priscilla Ryder. You said that, you know, and we have to get Priscilla Ryder and probably um uh Ted

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from DPW up in here because, you know, can we drill in conservation land? And is, you know, if if we're doing just a thermal capture, is that considered stewardship of conservation land? Because it's a very minor, you know,

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insignificant impact. Uh but there's a whole bunch of conservation land around here and other places that we could tap into. >> Yeah, I think if it's under if it's state land, then you have to do article 97 if I remember correctly. And so uh they the uh EA at you know the

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governor's office might want to make that process simpler. So if you want to go to them to ask for a simpler process, that would probably be helpful for you and others. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Yes, Trey. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a a quick

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question. So, looking at these three sites, right, the the wastewater treatment plant, the New England Sports Center, and Boston Scientific. I can understand that with the wastewater treatment plant, we're we're using the actual wastewater itself. Um we wouldn't be drilling bore fields there in theory,

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right? And and same is true for the sports center and Boston Scientific. Yeah. Right. Yes. >> So, how how are we >> Boston Scientific would be drill holes, bore holes. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. But >> but the other two would not be. >> I guess my question is how are we capturing the the waste heat from these

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sites? I mean this I'm just unfamiliar. >> No, it's it's a totally confusing concept. So waste water has temperature to it. All those warm showers all you know it >> fermenting stuff. >> It's it's generally between 60 and 90

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degrees. Sure. which is the kind of temperature that heat pumps are very happy and they work very efficiently with to provide you the temperature you want in your house whether heating or cooling. >> Uh and uh with ice rinks you would only be able to provide heating because you'd

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be taking the ice rink would take all the cold off the water and all the homes would get all the the heat or any businesses. >> Thank Yeah know that helps a lot. Thank you. And the the bedrock you get temperature because it's in this area it's about 55 degrees all the time which

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again is a temperature range that makes heat pumps happen. >> Sure. And that's what Ever Source is doing in Framingham. Those are three bore fields that they drilled on Sounds like municipal property. Um Yes. >> Right. To then heat that small neighborhood. >> Yeah. >> Gotcha. Thank you. Thank you.

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>> Um so uh here's some uh press for different thermal networks. Um here's uh the Black Swan Lab team that we have. We're available, you know, we got the center of public enterprise who tries to figure out how public money can help uh

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econ, you know, economic uh everything. Um we got thermal energy insights, Eric Bosworth, who installed the Eversource Framingham thermal network and now he's on his own. Um and Lord knows what happened to all the formatting on this.

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And then uh we got uh Jamie von Nostrin who uh was the department of public utilities chair last year in Massachusetts and now is at the future of heat initiative. And uh so we are ready to help out with uh econom you

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know economic and financial questions uh with technical questions with legislative and regulatory questions and with who owns what how. Um and uh so if you're interested, please just, you know, any more questions, we're happy to help. We will

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help you do grants. We will help you do, you know, take whatever steps you want forward on this issue because I think Marorrow can lead on this. >> So, >> and we would love to help. Um, so go back to the three bullets of next steps

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type thing that um, you know, New England sport, reach out to New England Sports Center, reach out to Boston Scientific, that that's ours to do. Um, but, um, the D grant for wastewater energy recovery,

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>> you said you could do that. we would need uh numbers from your you know >> D sorry uh DPW >> DPW okay >> um and it wouldn't so if we do this quickly we could get a basically the

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grant for free >> potentially. Yeah. Sooner is better, right? >> Sooner is better. Uh the other thing to know about and uh the other thing to know is well two things to know. One you they prioritize underserved communities. So if you can get any affordable housing

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uh or you know have it in any environmental justice area, it's better. And the second thing to know about that grant uh is that um the you can also use a sewer interceptor. So it does not have to be at the treatment plants. >> Okay. Um, >> it could be a made what I understand is

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basically you drop a hose a hose loop into a sewer pipe that can be as long as it needs to be because it's just a sewer pipe and that's how you capture the thermal energy, right? >> I I think it might be a little more complex than that, but we could go, you know, you uh you basic you you put a

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heat exchanger in the pipe potentially or you pull the waste water out into another compound. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. But Okay. Yes, sir. >> Mr. too. Um, and these seem to me make great sense to me. >> Oh, great.

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>> As everyone else, I suspect. However, uh, they're all on the north and east side of Marbor. >> There's not much on the west side of Marbor where we're having a lot of development these days. And we have some Fortune 500 companies on that side. Does it not make sense to not put all of our

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baskets in the all of our apples in the Boston scientific basket and open it up to other industries here in town? Uh, so I I recommend always exploring as many options as possible to figure out which one works best. Um, and if you want

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things on the west side of town, I think you have another treatment plant on that side. I I did not look at that one. I just, you know, so we we could look at that one instead. >> Would a feasibility study tell us the best path forward? uh uh yes potent you know and it depends

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you know feasibility studies uh would cost some money uh unless you did it through you know the D wastewater energy recovery grant so I mean and that's only for $15,000 so I just want to um so the bigger the feasibility study the more

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money the town might have to pay but it might be well worth it >> thank you thank you Mr. Chair >> Sure Mr. Yes. >> I'm curious about the end pro end side of it and that's how much disturbance in the streets would have to happen to pipe

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this to each individual house such as my neighborhood. They're going to be replacing gas lines. Wouldn't this be the appropriate time maybe to put in these pipes for future heat from these thermal energy units. But curious how that works and how big is the pipe? How

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much disturbance in the street? That type of situation. It's it's very similar to uh a gas pipe replacement what you're you know what you'll be going through it will be very similar if they if you had to drill bore holes that would be a different thing uh but that

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would generally be away from the house and in a parking lot nearby. Um so you know it's it's a it's a pipe maybe a little bit bigger than a gas pipe and instead of one service pipe going to your house you'd have a service loop a pipe going to your home and then coming

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one coming back. Um, and other than that, uh, it's about the same. And, uh, yes, of course, it's a great time to install. >> Well, that's why I was going to say, in other cities and towns like Denver or wherever you mentioned, Boise and so

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forth, have they utilized piping to the homes with other utilities when they were putting in their utilities, or is this something they had to put in themselves? >> Uh, the uh, >> just thinking of tearing up the streets more than once. >> Yeah. Gosh, who you never want to, right? limited chapter 90 funding, isn't

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it? >> Um, yeah. So, you always want to do uh do as many utilities, underground utilities as you possibly can. Uh, and Worcester has a cooperative uh paving program. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, where they have all the

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underground utilities tell them where they want to work over the next five years, and then they sequence them together. uh and it's allows the paving dollars to go uh you know 60% further. So I recommend you consider that. And Karen,

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you wanted to add >> just to say you could ask your gas utility what their plans are for the next four years and see where they are going to be planning to replace pipes because the electricity utilities have the option of putting money to what they

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call a nonpeline replacement which would be exactly this if they choose to rather than the millions of dollars per mile to replace the pipe. Um there are pros and cons of working with utilities as they know, but it certainly is another avenue to explor.

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>> Yes, >> you can see if there's overlap on any of these maps and Audrey has described other potential locations with the call gas system enhancement. So, I appreciated that explanation was

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really good, which is why I wanted you in front of a mic. Okay. >> Okay. >> So, yeah, the the gas utilities do replace pipes. They have funds to do that. They are allowed to instead install this kind of system >> as a replacement

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>> instead of a gas pipe replacement. Um, and >> even if it's not gas, >> if it's not gas, yeah, it's called a non-pipeline alternative. That's their term. >> Okay. uh and they can do this this type of system. Um >> even if they lose customers doing it,

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>> they uh it's a super complicated legal problem right now in the middle and and the Senate and the House and everybody's fighting and over it. So I'm I won't get into that one. >> Okay. >> But uh it's it should be clarified soon that legal issue. >> Mr. Chair. >> Yes.

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>> Thank you. I want to clarify something um again on how these work. So is it sim is it is it like you mentioned the airflow heat pumps that people have at their homes right is it is it similar to that regard in that it is

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it has capacity or has limits to the capacity for temperatures and whatnot will these will this completely replace somebody's home heating and cooling or will it kind of be like a dual fuel system will they will retain their own

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>> so the instead of having uh so first off. Air source heat pumps have, you know, if they're cold climate, they should be able to deliver all the heating and cooling you need, assuming your home, you know, you have the windows closed. Um, right, it's that should work at this point. They're very,

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very capable. But this system, uh, it has an easier time of it because when it's super cold or super hot outside, the water in the pipes down below, you know, in the ground is still the same temperature. It's not 100°. it's not zero degrees

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>> and so they the heat pumps connected can work at just perfect efficiency all the time delivering you the heating or cooling you need and uh in addition there is generally a backup heating and cooling system attached to the system so

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that you don't have to each customer doesn't have to have a backup the water pipe themselves has a backup on >> what is that what is that fueled by >> uh it can be fueled by gas or electricity or whatever. The Eversource one is electric. >> Got it. Okay.

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>> Uh and I Yeah. To Yeah. And there's many ways you can do it. >> Yep. That's helpful. >> And those are outages. That would effectively be an outage. Recovery from an outage, >> right? >> Uh it could it it could uh it could be many things. It could be like, you know, the something's gone terribly wrong,

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>> right? >> And uh you need to get the the water up to temperature again. There's that. The installation in Colorado Mesa has uh a gas boiler attached to it. In 15 years, they've never had to use the gas boiler

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>> to do that, but it's there as a supplemental backup system just in case. >> Yeah. And then my other question was um the communities you showed that had already done feasibility studies, I think it was Somerville, Lexington, Arlington, a couple other community, what are they doing now? I assume I

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don't know when they were completed, but kind of what is the takeaway for these communities? >> They're each confused about what the next step is. Um they're trying to figure out, you know, do they have the gas utility do it? Do they bring in a third party? Do they do it themselves?

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Where does the money come from? How do they govern it? etc. Yeah. >> And so, uh that is why exactly why Black Swan Lab is trying to help. >> Great. Thank you. And uh wait can I have Karen say something that might be >> so Mr. Chairman if Karen for the PD

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audience you got to come up otherwise it's not of any value. >> It's small issue it's very tiny. I was just going to say that um this is not so much an issue in Marboro I imagine but for many communities they don't have cooling and they're getting cooling for

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the first time with this system. So when we look at even the idea of a cost comparison, a lot of times they forget to factor in what does it cost to do air conditioning and the all that. So this is sort of a cooling and heating system especially double benefit for people that don't otherwise have cooling. >> Yes.

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>> One other thing um if I'm no basically it's not just heating and cooling but they'll also provide hot water. The system can also >> domestic hot water. >> Yes. >> So and correct me if I'm wrong. Let's go back to our our very famous uh skating

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ring that's going to >> Oh, yeah. There we go. >> That's going to supply 500 homes. >> 600. Yeah. >> 600 of homes. This is a system that goes through all the different homes. If there's a crack anywhere in that system where that water is not continuing now

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that we have 600 homes that don't have hot and cold, is that correct? >> Uh yes. Same same as if your uh an electric wire broke or a gas pipe broke. Yeah. >> So when the systems down, it affects everybody that's on the system.

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>> But that's also why there was a backup in Colorado that hasn't been used in 15 years. >> Yes. But if there if there's something catastrophic, if a you know construct, you know, somebody's doing construction and they dig into a pipe, that pipe is out. >> Um they they generally have shut off valves. There's there's same sort of

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process as exists with gas and with electric only it's way less dangerous, right? You hit a gas pipe, there's trouble. >> Thank you. >> I mean, if we're we stand on New England Sports Center just for heating, um it could go up Bigalow Street, you know,

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and do the neighborhoods of Bigalow Street, which is the street that goes under 49 uh 290. >> Yeah, that one. um or go down Edge Boulevard and start doing the actual office buildings in there. And we're

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brokers, like we don't we buy it from New England Sports Center and we sell it to someone else, but we basically do thermal exchange broking. And I would I would state that this is an incredible economic development option because if

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done through the city, you know, you can tell people their energy bill for the next 50 years just pegged to inflation. You know what the operations and maintenance is. You know what the installation cost was. every business for the next 50 years would know what

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their heating and cooling bill would be, which would be one of the biggest ways you could help businesses, especially now. Um, it would be amazing. >> Mr. Chair, if I can. >> Yes. >> One of your biggest businesses was a very promising business when it was a

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mall. Malls are slowly starting to go away. My wife was down at the mall last week when it was very hot and they weren't running their air conditioning that well. They're trying to save cost. This would be a win-win if New England Sports Center could provide energy such

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as thermal energy to that mall because they're looking at variable options including housing and this would be the time to consider that type of situation if they go that route. Uh but and they got lots of parking area too. So, who knows backup wells and so forth. But

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yeah, you're right next to a place that's looking for help and this would be helpful to the mall. Well, I I agree that it could be helpful to the mall, but not necessarily from New England Sports Center because I see a whole bunch of customers between there and there. Yes. I mean, you know, this is

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this is a great photo because it shows New England Sport Center on one side and that big honking building on the other side is basically Salmon Pond Mall, >> but all that parking space could be made into a well fields that could then support going back. It's almost like a

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barbell effect, right? Exactly. You got one on one side and one on the other side feeding the middle. Um >> but >> yeah, you know, when it comes um you know, anything that could be done with New England Sports Center could be something of a um you know, restoration,

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low-income housing, all that as well. >> Great. >> Um so, >> thank you. >> Yeah, you're very welcome. Um any other questions at this point? >> Yes, Trey. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just one quick

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question and I um was taking a look at that map that you'd referenced of the different um geothermal networks, the thermal energy networks, right? Um I found the the web link and um just looking I can't help but notice that there there are no other thermal energy networks currently in New England, right? A lot of them are district

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energy, which sounds like it's other renewables, correct me if I'm wrong, and then smaller geothermal networks. But you'd mentioned that Mass D has a grant for wastewater recovery specifically. Is there any such funding for like these uh the different borefield drilling sites,

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that sort of stuff? Because to me, it seems like what Framingham's doing is maybe a little bit more palatable, right? It's a lot smaller. I know they're still in, you know, in the in the pilot program. We're less than two years into the construction, but um or post construction, I should say, but is

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there any kind of funding for something like that rather than a full-scale thermal energy network? So, uh, you're asking is there any funding for just the bore holes part? >> Yeah, just because I think I think right I appreciate what we're talking about, but all of this would be a fullscale thermal energy network. It sounds like

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all all three of these sites that would be kind of the ad. >> And so, you're thinking more single building. I I'm not see I mean the map there's a few across the US like you referenced, but there's nothing in New England for this. We would be really kind of >> Oh, no. Smith Smith College has just

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finished it. Uh, Mount Holio did their entire has done is doing their entire campus uh um >> and that's a that's a thermal energy network. It's not to to me I got the impression that that was they're using existing renew renewables and stuff like that. No, they're they're doing a thermal

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>> they're doing uh bore holes. I think Mount Holio has a central plant so it's a slightly different model. >> Gotcha. >> Uh and they're doing it in three phases to interconnect. Okay. Uh I don't know as much about Smith College, >> but regardless, we're Yes, this would be

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cutting edge, but other people are kind of doing >> Yeah. more and and National Grid's also doing it in uh Dorchester. Um there are there are other installations in Massachusetts. >> Beverly is one as well. Just to add to your question about where's the money, um, this is not a done deal, but the

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current environmental bond bill that is going to be going to conference committee has $15 million for pretty much anything related to thermal energy networks, >> um, which could include, you know, grant. So, this would be it has to I it's $15 million grant. It's not a bond.

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So, if that makes it through >> the committee, we'll make sure you know about it so you can apply for some money. >> Thank you. Yeah. So, um, Mike, do you want to say anything? >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, so the the

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cases you've cited are all like Smith College, Holio College, they're all the one user. the concept of putting one in Malro. I now got to convince people andor commercial folks to change their

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current heating system to a geothermal system. Right. So hang on. So solar as councelor Ducet has told me and finally after years going that way I don't have an electricity bill but that was a

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$30,000 investment on my part which I won't see the payback in for five years >> y >> to do that. So, h how do I convince residential users, commercial, the West Union one? I just sent you all the case

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study. There's only 12 individuals or 12 buildings hooked up to that, but they're all in there downtown and I'm assuming the downtown gang flex some muscle to say, "Okay, we all want to participate." How how how do you how do I go to a resident and say

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your neighborhood we want to make sure you all go on to geothermal that that's that is not an easy ask >> it I totally agree and so one of the greatest things we're working on the biggest problems is how to pay for the building retrofits if we can do that I

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think uh from the Eversource Framingham installation every customer they contacted except for one said yes so long as the building retrofits were paid for because they were getting cooling because they were getting their improved indoor air quality because

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>> but that was an important thing you just glossed over as long as it was being paid for by who? >> Yes. So that's the the critical thing. So right now with the inflation reduction act there is part of the thing the way to get that is to own the heat

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pump. Uh and so it's possible that the whoever installs it, if they include the heat pumps, which is a large portion of the cost of the building retrofits, they get more credit. They get more of a tax write off. Um so there's and then also

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with a municipality which has the you know the mandate to do public good if you did either revenue bonds for this you could your cost of capital would be so much lower in comparison to a gas utility. You could still give people

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lower energy bills and uh make back that money and the only people paying for it would be the people connected to the system. So, so it's interesting this West Union case study, they the city doesn't own their their utility, if you will. They rent it.

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>> So, you know, this there's still some work to be done. >> Oh, crazy amounts. I do not want to Yes. That's why we have the team to be able to help to let you choose the ways forward. >> But I think you've raised the biggest issue there is. And I I want to add to

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that because basically, you know, there is the federal uh funding through the IR, you know, IRA tax credit. Um there is state grants to help with payment. I do believe that we should be as a city doing tiffs for these types of projects.

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So there's three buckets of money that we can help fund it. there is a return on investment which even if it's five years after five years you're in the gravy as far as savings goes at the end you know I would hope that you know

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based upon what I analysis I've done is that you know this if if we do well let me phrase it any thermal exchange network should be locking in a price point for heating and cooling for 10

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years the for for the 10 years, which is effectively covering the cost of the bonds. So, from the financial side, if we know what the bonds costs are and we're getting a customer base, that should actually be enough to cover the bonds as we go forward. And then after,

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you know, after the 10-year contract's over, you see where we are in 10 years as far as price point goes. And hopefully, we're lower than what they came in at the beginning of the 10 years because as long as we're undercutting fossil fuels, which should be pretty easy, uh we're showing cost savings and

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the businesses will you know will look at that. I mean Boston Scientific is looking to do this on his own because they see the savings you know >> Mr. Chair if I may. >> Yes sir. >> I was just looking at again today and thank you councelor Austin for sharing your article. Councelor Roby shared an

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article with us from the Boston Globe on June 15th. It was about geothermal energy and pretty much speaks to what councelor Det just said is after those years go by of cost then you're as you said in the gravy but I'd say in the hot

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water or cool water but um that's a very interesting article. It was on June 15th that Sarah shared it with us from councelor Roby. I would suggest going back to that article. It was excellent about it was in the globe and it was about geothermal energy. talks about one of the uh universities I think

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Smithfield in Massachusetts. It was a very interesting pros and cons but spoke to the longterm effects and I thought that'd be helpful for this committee to keep on file. Yeah. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> I mean just as as far as solar panels goes, I had solar panels installed 10

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years ago. I own them, okay, which is an important part of this. Um and yeah, I paid them off in seven years. It was a seven sevenyear 0% loan almost like a car. But after that and you know I I have a contract for SREx for 20 years.

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So I am making money off my solar panels right now. >> The volatility of gas bills. Has anyone noticed other than me? I mean I think we paid $900 in January or something for my home gas bills. I can't imagine what a business is paying if I'm paying $900.

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So I feel like as you said relative to fossil fuel costs it's really >> as long as we show a price point that's lower than that and part of the feasibility study is basically proving in within the feasibility study they would that can be done at a price point that makes it competitive against fossil

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fuels. So that's the end result of the fossil feasibility study. Um so thank you for for this presentation. My question to uh members of the committee, do we want to take an action to do a

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feasibility study just on um waste heat wastewater energy recovery as a feasibility study and say yes, Trey? >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I I guess I would I would encourage that we have the city go after this mass D grant funding for

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that wastewater recovery before kind of committing ourselves to any anything like that. I I wouldn't want to commit to a feasibility study without knowing what what funding we would have for it, right? Um, so I think, you know, it's encouraging to hear that there is, you know, grant funding out there for this

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kind of a project, but, um, I'm not sure. I don't know if Priscilla has kind of if you guys have talked about this before or um, if there's been an effort from the city to attain any of this funding. I'm not sure. I guess I >> not at this point. No, I was going to talk to Priscilla and, uh, Ted to come

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in and, uh, talk to us in the next meeting. So, um, but I think as, um, so just as far as the wastewater, uh, you know, uh, wastewater energy recovery, um, do you also agree in doing all those

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in favor and just getting a feasibility study just on wastewater recovery? Yes, sir. >> Mr. Chairman, you're not allowed to make a motion. >> Ah, do I Thank you very much for that correction. I appreciate that. So, go back to what you said at the

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beginning of the meeting. We need a couple one hour in. I'm not going to go commit funds or try to get funds for something I don't fully understand. >> My opinion. I'll let the committee decide what they want, but I'll tell you where I stand right now. There's still a little more work I think that's got to

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be done before I'm going to go commit any municipal resources to something that's not well understood yet. We only met for one hour. Mhm. Okay. Thank you. Okay. So,

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anyone interested in >> Yes. >> Uh Mark, >> thank you, Mr. Chair. I make a motion to explore the feasibil uh to explore funding sources for a feasibility study. >> Okay. For wastewater energy. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Just to explore

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monies available for feas whether it's through our a conservation commissioner or through our DPW. Okay. Um, >> and utilizing black swan as well. >> Okay. Okay. Uh, I'll second that. All those in favor?

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>> Discussion. >> Oh, discussion first. Any discussion? Yes, Trey. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just clarifying questions. Sorry. doesn't commit us to a feasibility study, but rather it kind of gives the intention that this this body would like to have folks come before us

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at our next meeting to address um you to kind of clarify some questions about >> what you know what the wastewater recovery feasibility study would look like and what funding sources there are for it, >> right? Which is which is different than the original proposal, which is why I'm asking for the vote, but yes. >> Sure.

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>> Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Okay. Um, okay then. All those in favor? Unanimous. All Okay. Um, okay. So, do you folks have anything else at this point? Are you

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>> I'm a teeny bit confused. What is your role in all this? >> We uh >> How do you get funding? >> We get funding from We get funding from foundations uh from the state, etc. to be able to help municipalities reduce their emissions and uh come up with

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practical solutions to provide people energy. >> Great. We're not paying for it. Welcome. >> Nope. >> Appreciate you guys showing up. >> Thank you so much. >> Yeah. >> Any question other should we >> stay nearby? But I think we're set for

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now. So >> thank you. >> Yeah, it's a good question too. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Um, so we we talked about having the next meeting in two weeks and I'll see if we can get uh Priscilla and Ted to show up, one or both if at all

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possible and talk about um a would be the best place to do wastewater energy recovery just because there is an open grant for that and then also talk about just doing the whole utility thing. So which you know the the conversation

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seems to be and even um was Eversource is doing Framingham? Eversource did Framingham. >> Yeah. >> They I heard someone describe it as saying they still don't know how to sell this stuff. So there's still lots of issues to be addressed.

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>> So So we'll have another meeting in two weeks. And yes sir. >> Make a motion to adjurnn. >> Motion seconded to adjurnn. All those in favor. Okay. We are adjourned at 5 8:05. Thank you very