I'd like to call this meeting of the Legislative and Legal Affairs Committee to order. The time is 5:30 p.m. We have one item on our agenda. It is item number 25-1000-9414. Communication from city
solicitor Jason Gfield regarding procedure to fill vacant ward 7 counselor position. And so this item has been referred to our committee. Um I'd like to read the letter from the
solicitor. Dear honorable president Oing and counselors, as requested, I write to advise regarding the procedure to fill the vacant position of W 7 counselor following the re recent passing of councelor Donalder senior. State law governs the procedure to fill a city
council position which becomes vacant during a term. The procedure varies depending upon whether the vacancy occurs in relation to the term and whether the position is an at large or ward counselor. With respect to the current ward counselor vacancy, in my opinion, state law
requires that the city council for with order an election to fill the vacancy for the remainder of the unexpired term. If a change to this procedure is desired, the city may seek special legislation to otherwise address the vacant position and enclosed as a copy
of past special legislation enacted in 2003 and 1995. Um so in 1995 and 2003 um similar situations had arisen and so
going to just jump ahead to based on historical research provided by city clerk Steven Carrian. The city obtained special legislation to appoint an individual rather than hold an election for the unexpired term to fill a ward city councelor vacancy before the last
six six months of the term of office in the two prior instances in which such a vacancy occurred since 1995. In May of 2003, chapter 16 of the acts of 2003 provided that the city council may
appoint a person by a majority vote of the city council to fill the current vacancy in the office of W 7 counselor. In July of 1995, section 2 of chapter 83 of acts of 1995, provided that the mayor is hereby authorized to appoint a
specifically named individual to fill the unexpired term of counselor of ward 3. A municipality may seek special legislation to affect only the municipality in accordance with section 81 of the home rule amendment in the Massachusetts
Constitution. Local approval by the mayor and city council of a home rule petition to seek special legislation is required. A home rule petition requests the adoption of legislation by the general court for a purpose and option. It often includes draft legislation.
Should the city council wish to seek to obtain special legislation, this office can assist in the drafting of a home rule petition. Respectfully, Jason Gfield, city solicitor. So, I would like to at this
time invite our city solicitor and our city clerk up to the well. Thank you both for attending the meeting tonight. And um I'd like to start off by inviting um I'm going to start with the clerk,
Mr. Carrian, because he is um our elections guru in the city. So please, Mr. Carrian, let us know your thoughts about um the situation. Uh sure. Well, as um the city solicitor pointed out in his letter, this has occurred twice in
the city's history. Not not um where the death of a counselor um has occurred with more than 6 months left in the term. In 1995, council w 3 counselor Robert Leuke passed away. Um and in 2003, W 7 counselor Natalie Lashman uh
passed away. They both had just about 6 months left in their term, a little bit more than 6 months left in their term. Um, in both instances, the city council decided to seek a home rule petition to appoint someone. In 1995, they wrote the legislation because they appointed Mr.
Leoo's uh widow, Joan Leoo, uh, to fulfill the remainder of his term. Um, and she at the time was also a teacher here in the city of Malro. So, they had to, you know, get special legislation uh to do that. and uh she was willing to serve and she wanted she just wanted to
serve out the rest of his term and then she was not going to seek re-election. Um in 2003 when C counselor Tol passed away um I I'm told that a similar situation happened that uh her husband Richard Tol was interested in being
appointed to the seat. Um but then uh for whatever reason Mr. Tol decided to take out nomination papers um and the council had not yet obtained the special act to give them the authority to appoint. So rather than appoint someone, they waited until the election was over in November. Um and then they
immediately appointed the winner of that election. It happened to be Richard Tol. Um and coincidentally, it was Mr. Tol and Council Landers who actually were running that year. Um so uh they didn't want to give anyone an unfair advantage by appointing someone a little bit
earlier. I'm of the opinion, um I I do and I have prepared election calendars. Um if the council so chooses to call for an election um you can you know I I do have them and I I'm very happy to share them with you if you know so you can see the earliest election date that would be
possible um for a special election would be let me make sure I say this correctly uh a preliminary election a special preliminary election would be uh if necessary July 1st with a special election for W 7 on July 29th that's one
option the second second option option there there really two you know you can go further and further out but these two are the closest dates that we can uh come up with uh if another option would be a special preliminary on July 15th and a special municipal on August 12th
um so those would be the dates uh you know and then all the other dates kind of simply fall into what's happening um the sooner the election gets called the less time people are going to have to gather signatures and and things like that so um that that will be a a factor
the the thing that I'm most uh concerned with, I should say, and um is the regular municipal election will be taking place and the election calendar will be coming out for the regular municipal election and they'll some of the dates you'll they'll be, you know,
coincidental. I mean, and someone could win the special preliminary election. They would serve as the counselor at the very earliest would be at the August meeting. um you know based on uh both calendars that would be the really the first meeting they could be sworn in perhaps the July meeting if the other
one uh no um but uh they wouldn't serve a very long time and they could actually have an opponent in the regular because they're only would be filling the remainder of the term this year. It's not going they're going to have to run um two elections basically
simultaneously if they choose to run for the full two-year term. City of Boston um if I can digress for a minute is facing this um uh very similar situation. They have a city councelor that is well not similar situation. The counselor didn't die. This particular
one is under federal indictment. Um so uh it's a little different but um they are scheduled to resign or they indicated they are going to resign and the Boston city charter is much more strict than ours. It says that if a vacancy occurs within 180, you know, with 180 days, they have to call for a
special election. And um they have the city council just recently passed um a petition stating that they want to forego the election. Um Secretary of State is um in support of that because he thinks that running elections like this that close, it's going to cause some voter confusion and could cause
some some uh people to not under, you know, not understand what's happening. Um I I I can't speak to it, but from what I understand, um the citizens and residents of W 7 have not been underserved in this uh since with council Landers uh since his passing. Um
he the other counselors have been here and have been I think doing a fine job. Um there I I don't think uh you know there are maybe some other procedural things that could happen with the council because now there's only 10 votes instead of uh 11 votes of you know special permit but that's not anything
that the city needs to concern itself with that would be a petitioner an applicant who is applying for something it's going to have to read the room and determine if they want to really try for something and you know um and knowing that they you know if they need eight votes and there's only 10 votes in the room. So um that's where I stand. I
mean, uh, I'm happy to answer any questions that you have or, um, you know, take from there. All right. Thank you, Mr. Clerk. I'm just going to, um, check in with the solicitor and see what you'd like to add, if anything. Sure. Thank you. Good evening, everybody. Um
so as I mentioned in the letter you know the charter that we have has been in place as you know for some amount of time and the charter provision which predates you know 2003 and 1995 sets a certain period where if there's a
vacancy in award counselor position that requires calling an election of course as you see from the history and it's not unique to Marorrow and it's come up in other communities as well is that communities from time to time will seek
special legislation which is the legislature passing a law, the governor signing a bill to essentially exempt themselves from whatever the particular charter requirement is and that can vary depending on the circumstances. So what
from a legal perspective, what you'll find in looking at communities across the Commonwealth who have unfortunately come up against similar vacancies is a special action is called, you know, in accordance with the charter or legislation is sought, you know, in the
form of a home rule petition and then it really is a matter of um expediting the legislative process at the state level to try to get legislation passed as soon as possible to either get the authority for the city council to appoint uh
someone to fill that position by a majority vote is you know what kind of many examples look like. Um there was another example a few years back in Brockton where the community didn't want to hold an election and didn't want to appoint anybody and sought and obtained
special legislation to that effect. So the approaches can vary but that's kind of the legal landscape and I'm also happy to answer any any questions. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Solicitor. I'd like to open it up to the members of the committee first and then I'll open it to the other members.
Councelor Roby. Thank you, Madame Chairman. Um I I guess for me I I understand that there probably haven't at least I haven't received phone calls from anybody in the ward saying that they feel like they're not being represented.
I also haven't received a call from any of them asking for help on anything. I don't know if anybody else in the council has if things are okay in ward 7 and so there isn't that need to call but I do feel
like we have a responsibility to them as our charter says to fill the position what I would be opposed to and and I hope all of us that are here and those that aren't watched the videos
that were provided by councelor passing uh through the the work with the um cable station to get those recordings so that we could watch them. I'll use the word fiasco because I really feel that's what it was. They went from a vote on
April 7th 9 to1 with our own current counselor Oing sitting in those seats back then to do the home rule petition that then in August they decided to not appoint anybody but to just let the
regular election in November happened and then they appointed that person to hold the seat immediately. And if you listen to those recordings, you will hear the tone that there was an obvious issue at that council with the 10
members and five to five votes. And so they felt the need to have somebody, but not until after the election and only because they felt that they needed somebody to be there to represent the ward when they set the tax rate, which
is just mind-boggling to me. you're elected in November and in 30 days they expect you to sit in a seat and vote on a tax rate. So I would to me we either do one of two things. we decide to hold
the special election with the dates that Steve has given us, preferably the earlier one or we don't do anything and a new person will take the seat in January of next year because to me the election in November is not to fill the
seat. The election in November is to have someone take the seat in January just like everybody else that's being elected. Um, so I would push for having an election. I understand the points that the uh city clerk made that yes,
people would be potentially having to deal with two elections, but I think they would deal with the first one first. They would have to pull papers. Then that would be done. If they decide they want to run for the the seat again,
they'd have to then deal with that those dates. Um, and I don't really see the conflict. I think my understanding of the Secretary of State in Boston is that Boston does not have their act together when it comes to elections and he did
not want them to hold a special election because he felt that they would mess that one up as much as they've messed up other elections. And I don't think we're in that same position. So, I don't think that just because the Secretary of State
says, "Oh, I'm okay with Boston not doing it." That that would be a reason we would say we wouldn't do it. Um, so that's that's my stand. Um, I'll wait till everybody's done before. Thank you, Councelor Roby. Um, I
do have a question based off of something that Councelor Roby had mentioned because it was one of the things I was wondering. Um, are there any counselors in the room who have received any outreach from
residents of W 7 or any constituents wondering about the W 7 vacancy? Um, councelor Rosing. Thank you, Madam Chair. So, I've got uh three phone calls. Uh, one, a constituent not from W 7 that said don't run the
election because they don't want to see the unanticipated costs of running an election. So, it was more from a fiscal standpoint. Uh, I did get a call from an indual individual from Ward 7 who was potentially considering to run if they was going to be in election. And I got a
third one from an individual that gave me no name or address. So, I didn't know how to get back to them. Um, as far as constituent calls, I've only dealt with one call from a constituent from W 7, and that's only because they knew me and it wasn't a W seven issue. But I haven't
had any Ward 7 specific issues brought to my attention. I'm happy to deal with them if we have. I've checked with the uh council secretary and she has not received any um um calls or concerns from anyone from W 7 feeling that their
items aren't being addressed in any fashion. Thank you, Mr. President. Um Councelor Villo, thank you Madam Chair. I um couple questions and a couple comments. So, so bear with me for a moment, but um my first question would be say we were to
go the route of a special election. Um were will people be able to pull nomination papers immediately and then what would the deadline be going up because I know we usually have a hard deadline before the election? You do we will uh papers will be available if the
the earliest the council can vote obviously to call the election would be at their meet at your meeting on uh April 28th. Sure. Um, if you vote to call a special election, whatever date you pick, um, papers will be available immediately on April 29th, we'll have nomination papers available in the
office and people can come in and pick them up. Um, it's pretty simple. I mean, we actually, um, are in control of that. As far as hard deadlines, yes, for an election for the July 29th special election, and that's the only I'm going to just use the election date, not the preliminary because we don't know if we
need a preliminary for the ele and they're all the dates are again driven off of that. So on for the July 29th preliminary election um papers would be available on April 29th and then uh the last day to obtain nomination papers
would be on May 9th. So I mean they'd rough people would roughly have about 9 or 10 days business days to pick up paper. I think it's nine days because Tuesday through Friday then Monday through the following Friday uh uh May 9th if you were to push the election out to the second date I mentioned which is
August 12th. Um, again, papers would be available on April 29th. People would then have until May 22nd to draw nomination papers. So, they'd have almost almost a full month to to get the papers. Um, when I say the last day to obtain nomination papers, that's May 9th, for example. Again, going back to
the July 29th date. Um, they have to be filed with the registars for certification by May 13th. So, you would have you could get them on that Friday and by Tuesday, you would have to file them with the registars. Everybody has to file them no later than Tuesday, May 13th, in order to um get them certified.
Make sure you have the requisite 50 signatures and and then go forward from there than all the other dates. You you answered my next question. I was going to ask if it's still the 50 signature threshold for I mean that that's that's what's required is is just 50 in and of the ward only though. You have to take 50 signatures from within the ward. Yes.
Okay. Um my next question is just regarding cost of of a potential special election. I don't know if you have an itemized idea or kind out some some costs. I mean it's it's going to be approximately about $5,000 per election again and that's based on about 1,500
ballots. And I say 1500 ballots. I mean um hopefully the secretary's office is not viewing this because they would get very mad at me because we are technically supposed to buy three ballots for every registered voter in the ward. Um and there's roughly about 3,500 voters. But I typically do not do that for municipal elections. um only
because I I base it on historical, you know, okay, we're gonna have this much of a turnout, you know, we're gonna have a 10% turnout. I will say though, we already pro we already do have about 400 requests for um vote by mail ballots
because um not anticipating a vacancy in the W 7 seat. Um, with the municipal uh, street listing, I sent I included with that um, anybody who would like to request a ballot for all elections. You could tick off all elections or just the general election, your municipal general
or whatever. And everybody returned them and checked off all elections. So, should you call for a special election, the voters of W 7 would be entitled to receive a ballot by mail. And we have about 400 of those already. So, so we're looking at about $5,000 per election, give or take, uh, just for the specific
ward. No, that's good to know. I appreciate that. Um, aside from that, I don't think I have any further questions. My my really my biggest concern with going forward with an appointment is I fear that we could give incumbency advant an advantage, an incumbency advantage to whoever we pick.
I I don't know if there's a legal way to bind somebody to not run for that election. I I don't think so to my knowledge. But I fear that we appoint someone. I mean, this is happening in Ohio right now. Governor Dwine appointed his lieutenant governor to their vacant Senate seat after Vice President Vance
took took office. And this gentleman is going to run for election, right? He's giving an unfair advantage advantage over other candidates in the field. So, I worry that if we were to appoint somebody, we would have to be very careful as to whom it is that we do pick or or maybe go with an option where we
leave it vacant intentionally as to not give that kind of advantage to somebody. So, so that's my biggest reservation about asking for a home rule petition and doing that. So, I think I share with with councelor Roby that I'm leaning more towards a special election really for that that main reason. Thank you,
Madam Chair. Madam Chair, can I just get a clarification from the clerk? You said 5,000 per election. So, you're saying 5,000 for the preliminary and then five again for the regular. Yeah. And if there is no preliminary, then and it would be roughly about $5,000. Okay. But there you would still have the cost of
mailing or you would know there would be I would not have to mail action if we the only way the only way we would have a preliminary election if if more than double the number run. So in the ward case if three candidates come out we have to have a preliminary election to eliminate one candidate and
then the top two move on. Um if only one candidate comes uh comes out and decides to run that person will automatically go right to November. I we still have to hold an election even though there's only one person on the ballot. We will still have to hold the election. But um yes, it'd be about $5,000 per election,
the preliminary and then again for the general election. That excludes other costs, you know, um like staff time and things like that. So, but you know, staff in my office, but it's kind of built into their salaries right now. So, okay. Thank you, Mr. Clerk.
Als had had his hand up before and then I can jump to you. Thank you, Madam Chair. If the council decides on leaving the status quo, not doing anything, do we, and this is more directed towards the solicitor, what type of special legislation do because it's never been
done before, right? And both of the previous examples given there was an election and there was a temporary person that took the took the position. If we do nothing, what do we as a as a council need to or as a solicitor, do you need to do in order for that to take
place? So through the chair, so you know, we would want to do a home move petition to address the fact that we're not going to hold a special election and we're not going to appoint somebody and the and that's kind of what Brockton ended up doing a few years ago where
they basically got legislation passed to say, hey, despite what our charter says for this vacancy at this particular time, we're not obligated to hold a special election. That's what that looks like. uh because otherwise right there is this obligation under the current
charter to you know forth with call the election. So that would be one way that that could be addressed. I know it's not normally your position but what what would you suggest? So I I think there's no one correct answer to it right in terms of not to
give you a lawyer's answer but there are you know that's kind of what I'm going about to give you unfortunately. Um I'll give you the city clerk answer after in that right sitting here today we have a charter on the books that says do x
right and that's the the legal answer is that's the requirement unless and until it's changed and the practical answer is there are plenty examples of it being changed in here in Marboro we've got two you know very you know in the short relatively short term and then in other
communities there's examples as well so there's no one correct answer. That's that's the legal answer. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Councelor Duck. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Um, so I I do have a couple of questions. First to Steve, which one would you choose?
Um, I would choose not to hold an election. I I and and it's not based on anything, you know, work-wise. I mean, uh, you know, my office can obviously handle it if we if if the council so chooses, but I I personally think that
it would it's going to cause some confusion just because I know councelor Roby, you know, when the regular municipal calendar comes out, which will be, you know, I've been keeping it kind of secret just because I don't want to, you know, spill the beans just yet. But, um, there there are going to be some dates. you're going to be running for a
special election seat and you're going to also have to remember to come in and pull papers and run for the regular seat if you so choose. Otherwise, cuz you know if oops, I forgot to get in there by the date that the dates passed. Oh well, sorry. You're the council until inauguration day and then we're going to
be faced with another special election in January because we didn't have anybody run. But um I personally would leave it the status quo and and not hold an election and not appoint someone. I I concur with what council fill said. I think to appoint someone um would be a
little dangerous if they were going to run because you're you're giving someone a leg up, an unfair advantage. I mean um I actually floated the idea to our solicitor and uh to another attorney I know that said, "Geez, maybe we have the council appoint someone but not from W 7, which would stop them from running
for someone being able to run." But um the I was told that it might violate the one man, one vote, and you know, little things in the Constitution. So I hate it when that happen. Right. when the constitution gets in the way, it's such a bugger. But okay, um couple of other questions. If um we go with the uh you
know special ping limit on 71 that like you said assumes that there is three people running for the seat. Um by the way uh for reference in 2017 I had a preliminary election in W 2 and that was the only preliminary
election in the entire city. and not many people show up for those things just in general. Never mind, this will be much less than that. So, I I think we also have to take into account turnout when it comes to this type of stuff. But if uh the election happens on
this 29th, when would they be sworn in? Um well, the the first date that they would be eligible to be sworn in would be after the um last day to file a recount petition, which would be August 8th. So that would be the after August because people would
have a 10 people have 10 days to file for a recount should there you know be multiple people in a race. So after August 8th would any time they could be sworn in. They could be sworn in in a private ceremony in my office. I know what they did in 2003 was they did it at
a council meeting. They actually um when uh when then councelor Tol was uh you know elected in November and he was immediately appointed um they had him come into the well of the uh council chamber at that meeting. They swore him in you know the clerk at the time swore him in at that meeting and he took his
place for the meeting. So okay anytime after August would be the short answer. Yes. And uh the our election is going to be still the first week of November. Right. Correct. Uh the regular municipal election will be November 4th and uh for
those that recall the council voted pursuant to chapter 54103P we set the municipal preliminary for September 16th should that be necessary. Again those are we don't know if we're going to need the preliminary election. Understood. Understood. Um I'm just trying to figure
out like if if we did have an early election basically how many um council meetings would this guy attend? between now and let's say uh if he was sworn in after the November election immediately
this the meeting after sorry Katie I understand you disagree with that if you you mean if if you appoint someone but you wait till the winner of the November election no no if he gets in you know if he gets in on let's say you have a special election and he gets special election a you know he gets one in on Thank you six appreciate that sir so you
know if someone was going to come in basically if the the three scenarios are a early election gets one in early August. B we run the election and he gets appointed to finish from November to the end of the term or C we wait till
the very end and he gets worn in on the in January. Right? Those are the three I see those as three scenarios that are options that we can pursue. Okay. Um or do nothing or well do nothing means that it happens in January. Yes. That's the
do nothing, right? the do something and then do half. You know, the do something would be having someone come in in early August. Okay. Um, it's just I I think that if someone was going to be running for city council and we run it as a
normal election to save money and he gets appointed to finish council's term, you know, if people are coming in ready to be a city council, they should be aware this type of stuff is going on. And you know, sometimes you get into
stuff in the middle and that's just the way things work out, you know. So I don't I would rather see and I understand councelor Roby disagrees with this, but having someone go through the normal election and then get appointed after the election, I think of those
three options is probably the cleanest in my humble opinion. And I know there's disagreements here, okay? But, you know, I think that doing it early, it's it's going to make this election summer confusing to everyone. Okay? Especially
in ward seven. And the problem is is that we will hear about it in all the other wards because it's different. You know, why why is seven different than this? Ah, council Landers died and blah blah blah. You know, we're going to have to face it and all that stuff. But I think if we just run through the
election and appoint the person afterwards, it's the most effective and efficient way of getting through this. Um, at least that's my view. So, thank you. And I can't vote. So, Councelor Naven, thank you, Madam Chair.
I I will preface this by saying I also do not have a vote on the committee. Um, so you can take my comments or leave them. Um, that is just fine. Um, I appreciate you both being here. Um, and for your opinions. Oh, well, Mr. Clerk, your opinion. And Mr. Solicitor, your
lack of any sort of opinion whatsoever except keeping us out of hot water. Um, you know, one thing we we've kind of danced around it a little bit, right? We are here cuz in my opinion, I won't put words in anyone else's mouth, but our charter is a little bit broken. Um, and
obviously the president filed language at the last meeting to make some changes to that. um which we will have for consideration at a future date. Um so I I I have some opinions here, but I think we should be cautious to not try to hold
to the charter to do what the charter says because the charter is a little silly in the way that it holds an atlarge vacancy separate from a ward vacancy separate from everybody else. And so, um, making corrections, which we will discuss at some point in the future, I think is a good idea because it is absolutely ridiculous if you are a
ward counselor, um, that your vacancy is filled in a different manner. Um, you know, I appreciate the cost estimate. Um, $5,000 may not seem like a lot, but it's $5,000 and we're in tough budget times and, um, I've got some concerns about running an election. um
the special dates that you laid out. If it's the first one, if it's July 29th, then they can be sat for the August meeting, but if it's for August 12th, they can't be sat for the August meeting because the August meeting is August 18th. And so that 10day window, correct? It would be August 22nd. So, Correct. I
So, yes. No, no, I just Right. So, I mean, that's a that you are correct. Yeah. So, if it if you set it for the second date, which is August 12th, yes, August 22nd would be the first date that they would be eligible to be sworn in. so that counselor he or she um could could be able to um miss yet another
meeting. So, um you know, I I I do not favor a special election. I do think it's going to be incredibly confusing. Um we talked about the candidate who may be running for the preliminary um will also then have to pull papers immediately after. Um, we didn't talk about the candidate who may not decide
to pull for the special, but may decide to pull for November and is out there campaigning at the same time as the special is taking place. And now people are saying, well, what about, you know, Susan who lives over on, you know, Foley Road or Foley Road is not in W on Susan
Road in W 7. Um, you know, she's not on the ballot and I thought she was on the ballot. I'm holding her door card. I I I don't want to imply that the vacancy is unimportant. Um I think uh having been a ward counselor, having staring at
some of the ward counselors, the work is very challenging. Um and it they are the first people um that the residents reach out to. Um that said, I think that um I think that going forward with a
special is going to lead to confusion. It's going to lead to cost. Um there is going to be this much turnout for that election. There is 20% 25% in a big municipal year. Regular municipal election we had a huge turnout in the
last municipal I think we had like 23%. Unbelievable. Just really from experience for someone who has run in a special board race at one time in my life before getting this wonderful job. Um it was awful. I'll just say it flat out. It was
awful. And was it it was the dead of summer and it was awful. Nobody wanted to see me knocking on their door. I didn't want to knock on doors because it was a thousand degrees. Um but uh it and the turnout was just a business and it and it was for a longer term than than
what we're talking about now. We was talking it was a year and a half. It was a year and a half. So I I just you know in the middle of summer for an election on July 29th or August 12th it it seems a bit silly. Um and then I just want to add to the course I share the concerns about making an appointment at this
time. Um it is challenging if we had a different setup where perhaps the mayor was appointing someone um that we've seen and someone could have a I you know look in the eye conversation say I'm not going to run. I will not be a candidate. I think it it may be a little bit easier to take somebody at their word if a city
council goes and says hey you're they said they're not going to run and it's like okay well I'm going to go to the clerk tomorrow and pull papers. Um I do think it causes an unfair advantage. um that especially with what you're getting for representation in a time period I don't think is necessarily worth that.
Um I also but I do share councelor Ducet's comments. Um and then point order I know councelor vital said that both elections um the last two times we did it but the in 2003 when it was done the home rule was to appoint and then the it was a general election. It was
not a special election. Correct. And then the appointment was made after the general election. Correct. Yeah. So, I I think that right may that happened with Mayor Woo last year um when she was when she was elected um and she was appointed early um by the city council. I do think
that that could make some sense. Um but also leaving it vacant until um January. I would also be in support of either of those options. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Councelor Naven. Councelor Rossen. Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, so I'm going
to agree with council ducet and councelor Naven and for for different reasons. Um, if you look at the charter, the charter says for award vacancy, if any vacancy occurs before the last 6 months, you hold an election. Um, but it's vacant on what happens after the
last 6 months. So there is no rules. We we've had a vacancy in the ward seven seat since November, almost 6 months. All right. And and again, just from you've all heard it. No, no one's had the world hasn't come to an end. We've been able to address any issues that
have come up in Ward 7. Um the the issue of a 55 vote is real, but that issue of a 55 vote could be there if someone decided not to vote on an issue. So that's not to say just to have one to have a tiebreaking vote, I don't think is a valid valid issue. So why I would
support I I'd call it the council ducet version of going to let the municipal election run out and then ask for the home room petition to appoint after the municipal election in November so that that individual could start you
know whenever the election gets certified not just to be there for taxes but just to start the process you know they won the election we now have the opportunity to to appoint um Again some additional reasons past presidents in 95 and 2003. Uh again in
2003 they the council was given the home rule petition was approved signed by the governor to appoint and elected not to appoint anyone and waited until after they missed the election. There was a whole host of reasons how they got to that point but they they didn't didn't
decide not to. Um, my version, election timelines have become more ownorous, which isn't an excuse not to hold an election, but knowing that you're going to be holding almost parallel elections and it's in the summer with the folks that
aren't, you know, geared to showing up to vote, uh, is going to be a challenge. uh the cost of elections. So, the 5,000 for each one and I'll add in the council's salary. So, that's $5,000 in
council salary as well. Um no secret this budget session is going to be a challenge. So, anything we can do to help adjust uh mitigate that I think is is important. And then I'll just offer as counselors if anybody from W 7 has an issue, let us know. I mean, I I I
represent everybody, so it doesn't matter to me if there's what w they're from. We're happy to adjust it. So, in my opinion, the I hope the recommendation is or the council eventually votes to ask for a special home rule petition to allow the council
to appoint the winner of the November election immediately to fill the vacant ward 7 seat. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, President O. Um so a lot of my own notes and questions have been um
been brought up but essentially what um councelor Ducet counselor Naven and councelor Villo had brought up something um earlier and then councelor Rosing I feel like just drove home what I've been
feeling is that having a special election could potentially cause um confusion Um, and I'm not going to rehash everything, but I will at this point entertain. May I be recognized? Oh,
apologize. Yeah, I didn't know if you saw me, so thank you. Uh, before you take a vote, I know I'm not on the committee. I've listened to everyone and all your comments. So, Council Naven brought out a very good point. Budget's going to be tough this year. I think
Council Austin just said that, too. So, with that said, what a dilemma we're in. First and foremost, God rest your soul, Don, cuz we're talking about a real person that's not with us anymore. So, many thanks to all his years of service. We are in a predicament because
personally, I believe in the elective process, but as the clerk noted, and I know Jason, you're kind of keeping it to a limit of what you're going to represent, which I understand. Uh we are in a dilemma cuz I don't want
to ignore the election process but at the same time be realistic about it. Summertime elections I don't think are going to be the greatest. I ran in a special election for state senate once and it was very low turnout. It was when Bob Duran left to work for the EOEA uh
executive office of environmental affairs. With that said, it has been in my term. We lost councelor Leoo sat I think right here. Um and his he was his wife was appointed. I'd suggest because
of the not the cost as much as because of the time of the election process that we look at an appointment. That would be my opinion to the committee since I do not serve on this committee. But I will have a final vote at the meeting. Thank you, Councelor Brown. Thank you,
councelor. Um, so with that, I will entertain a motion. Councelor Roby. Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, so I've sat and listened to all this and I I certainly I think the consensus up until um councelor Orm walked in the room was
that we would not appoint um I can live with no election, no special election. I think the rationale that's been given for why we wouldn't hold one are valid. Uh both the cost, the confusion,
um the fact that we have not had someone in the seat not only for now but actually since back in November when the counselor was not able to attend meetings. So I don't think that there's really that need to fill the seat. Um, I
I would agree that letting the election in November happen and have that person then be installed immediately. It could work, but I want it to be clear that it's that that would not be considered a special
election to fill the seat because we aren't doing a special election that we would just have them come in early. Although I still am not sure what the point would be. The seats been empty. It would have been empty for a whole year at that point. Does it matter for three
more meetings if the seat remained empty so that the person actually took their seat when everybody else takes their seat in January when everybody would be sworn in. Um but I think
the sense of the room is that the preference is to have them be um installed immediately. So I would move that we ask for a home rule petition to not have a special election but then to allow the person who wins
the November election be installed. is that sworn in sworn in sworn in um immediately so that they could then take their seat at the council. I will second that motion. Um so on the
motion Oh, I apologize. Thank Thank you, Madam Chair. I um similar to Councelor Roby, you know, obviously read the read the votes in the room and I do agree. I think this is the the proper avenue for us to go. I do just want to say one one kind of final remark is I understand the concern that this is going to be a
confusing process if we were to move forward with a special election. But um I've said this before on the floor and I and I firmly believe this. It is our responsibility as as folks running for office to educate voters on the election timeline, right? Just as much as it is
the city clerk's office. It's our responsibility when door knockocking, when going to community events, when doing these things to educate the community about when an election is happening. And I don't think that changes whether it's a special election or or you know a general election or or a primary. I understand that that makes
it more confusing. But I think to to say that a special election is a bad idea because it's going to confuse voters. Well, in my opinion, it's our responsibility to tell them, well, this is what's happening. and and I know that's easier said than done, but I think it's that kind of leg work that really matters during a time like this.
I will support this motion. Um, but I just think that kind of clarification was was was important. So, thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you. I appreciate that, Councelor Fill. So, on the motion from Councelor Roby to um enact a home
rule to not hold a special election, but then to swear in the candidate who would be elected at our regular November election um to have that candidate sworn in at the next regular meeting. So, all
those in favor opposed. The vote carries 30. Um I'll entertain another motion. Madam Chair, motion to adjurnn. Thank you. On the motion from councelor Pillo to adjurnn. All those in favor opposed.
Meeting is adjourned at 6:1530.