Saturday morning, >> not tomorrow. >> No, because I have I have a 10:00 interview and 1:00 interview and I want to spend a little time with I don't know what your um Saturday probably is.
>> All right. Well, we will we will keep in touch. >> All right. Okay, it's 8 o'clock. >> Ending. >> Good evening everyone. Welcome to the
Jan 22, 2026 meeting of Milbourne Township Charter Study Commission, which is called to order. Can I do this? >> Yeah. Uh, in accordance with section five of the Open Public Meetings Act, chapter
231, public law 1975, I'll be advised that notice of this meeting was made by posting on the bulletin board and town hall and forwarding to the official designated newspapers that this meeting would take place at the Bower Center at
8:00 PM on Thursday, Jan 22, 2026. meeting details and the draft and the draft agenda have been posted. All right. Uh I'd like uh for everyone here to please stand for the pledge of allegiance. >> Not yet.
>> Not yet. Why not? >> Can we do roll call first? >> No. >> Oh, there's an agenda right in front of me. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Don't mess >> yelling at Sorry. >> You're yelling at the chairman already. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the
republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, liberty and justice for all. >> That's why we ran together because we push each other. >> That's right. That's right. All right. Um I will now call a roll call vote to
no those present. >> Mr. Miller, yes. Here. >> Dr. here. Miss Parker L >> here. >> Mr. Tenn here. >> Mr. record >> here. Uh the record will show that we have a quorum for this meeting. Uh have
everyone had a chance to uh read the agenda? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Great. May I have a motion to approve the agenda? >> So moved. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> All right. Uh may I have a motion to
approve the Jan 15 2025 minutes uh meeting minutes? >> What? 2026 meeting. >> Yeah, the agenda has it as 25. >> It was the 26. >> Oh, 26. Sorry. >> Sorry about that. >> 2026.
>> Uh, meeting minutes. Um, could I have a motion, please? Good. >> Is there a second? >> Second. >> All right. All in favor? >> I. >> All right. Reports. Are there any commissioners with reports since our last meeting?
>> Um, Dr. a very brief report. So, I appeared at the TC meeting and used my public comment period to tell the TC about the charter study meeting. They were glad to see that I was there to advertise the meeting and I don't think they said anything else about it.
>> Okay. Um I was going to read this now. Uh >> wait a little bit. Wait a little bit. Okay. Um I just want to say that uh we are still
um conducting interviews and um >> that is that part of old business. >> Yeah, we can discuss that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. All right. Are there any other reports? >> Nope. Okay. All right. Uh public comment
speak during the public comment period. Please follow these instructions. Ensure your Zoom display uh name shows your your first and last name. Click the raised hand button. You will be called upon in order and promoted to panelist. Please turn on
your video when called to speak. Clearly state your full name and whether you are a Milbourne resident or a business owner. um to facilitate an orderly meeting and and permit all all to be heard. Please limit your
comments to three minutes. A reminder that the public comment period is an opportunity for residents to share their views with the commission. Commissioners will not respond to questions or engage in dialogue during the speaking time, but will carefully consider all comments. At the end of the public
comment period, questions will be uh discussed uh and may be addressed at the chair's discretion. All right. Anyone have a uh anyone have something to say just yet? We have a
second one. So, we could uh anyone on anyone online? >> We have one guest but no hands raised. >> Okay. I now close the first public comment period. Are there any comments from the commission regarding any comments made from the public? Since I
see none, let's move on. All right. Uh oh, yeah. All old business and uh in and uh in interviews. Uh Dr. Khan, would you please uh >> Sure. Okay. >> Um so tonight, we're going to discuss some of our preliminary findings from
interviews with municipal employees. Um, but just to sort of make sure everyone's on the same page, I wanted to give an overview of our current form of government and how it works. Um, so you know, so we all have the same common understanding as to what we were
actually interviewing to find out. So Milbourne has operated under the Township Committee form of government since its incorporation in 1857. This is the oldest and most traditional form of municipal government in New Jersey. There's been a bit of evolution in Milbourne structure over time. Um, while
Milbourne has always had township committee government, the current structure with a strong business administrator dates to the early 1980s. Prior to that, Milbourne operated under the traditional township committee model where each committee member was assigned to oversee specific departments such as
police, fire, public works, recreation, with other committee members generally deferring to that member on matters related to their assigned department. This structural weakness was identified as early as 1972, the last time Melbourne had a charter study commission. That commission noted, and
I'm going to read the quote verbatim from the report right here, um, no overall administrator. A major deficiency of the township committee form of government is the lack of a professional administrator fully empowered to carry on the day-to-day supervision of township affairs. We do
have a business administrator who handles many operating details and attempts to carry out duties of a coordinating nature. But he has no authority over the police department, the fire department, the recreation department, the library, or the public works department, which make up a substantial portion of the township
workforce, and his powers in other areas are limited. He has little authority to require compliance from department heads, but must rely primarily on the support of the township committee and the voluntary cooperation of other township personnel. Moreover, the administrator has been given the additional jobs of township
clerk, township treasurer, secretary to the board of health, and registar of vital statistics. All of which may require detailed attention and distract him from any supervisory or leadership role. So that's the end of what they had found in 1972. So in the early 1980s,
Milbourne chose to address this identified deficiency by centralizing administrative authority under a professional business administrator with full supervisory powers over all departments. >> Through our research in the item newspaper archives, we found extensive discussion among township committee members at the time about the
significant change whether to consolidate administrative functions and move away from the traditional model of individual committee members overseeing departments. This was clearly a thoughtful and deliberate decision not taking taken lightly by the governing body at the time. Since that transition,
Milbourne has had remarkable stability in this critical position. Only two business administrators in approximately 40 years. Tim Gordon served from 1985 to 2016 and Alex McDonald has served since 2012. So just a brief background on the
current structure of our elections. Um, the township committee has five members elected at large in partisan elections. Members serve staggered three-year terms. Elections occur every year with either one or two seats up for election. Elections are held in November
and include primary elections in June. Candidates appear on the ballot alongside other partisan offices. Regarding the mayor, the mayor is selected annually by committee members themselves, not directly elected by voters. The mayor chairs meetings but has limited independent authority beyond
the minimum established by state law. This means that the mayor serves as first among equals rather than as a separate executive. The business administrator is appointed by the committee to handle day-to-day operations. Responsibilities include preparing budgets, managing departments,
overseeing contracts, and hiring staff. The administrator works under the committee supervision and implements policies set by the committee. Critically, unlike the situation described in 1972, the BA now has full authority over all departments, including police, fire, public works,
and recreation. The township committee holds both legislative power, that is making policies and laws, and executive authority, which is overseeing administration. There is no separation between these branches. All members are elected at large. There's no ward- based
elections and this structure provides for unified governance under a weak mayor system with professional administration. So understanding this baseline and how Milbour deliberately strengthened its administrative capacity in response to previously identified weaknesses is essential as we discuss what municipal
employees told us about how the structure functions currently in practice. And I'm going to my report is going to be about the uh municipal employees. Before detailing specific findings, the
commission wishes to emphasize that Milbourne Township benefits from exceptionally dedicated and professional municipal workforce. Throughout these interviews, a consistent theme emerged. Employees
across all departments demonstrate deep commitment to public service, take genuine pride in their work, and routinely exceed expectations in serving residents. Multiple interviewees
spoke of the township's strong reputation statewide for operational excellence, and this reputation is clearly well-earned. Department heads describe a collaborative environment where interdep
department interdep departmental coordination functions smoothly. Employees support one another across divisions and a shared commitment of what's best for the town guidelines daily decision making. The business
administrator's leadership was repeatedly praised for providing clear direction while empowering departments to operate with appropriate autonomy. Township employees work overtime, innovate solutions to complex challenges
and maintain residents responsiveness that sets a high standard for municipal government. The observation that followed should be understood in the context Milbour's municipal operations
are strong precisely because of the caliber of its workforce. The structural questions examined by the commission focus on whether the governmental framework maximately supports these talented professionals in sustaining and
building upon this excellent. Any recommendations are offered not as criticism or current performance, but as considerations for how the township's form of government can best position dedicated employees to continue their
exemplary service to residents. And just may I add that uh when Joanna Parker Lens and Dr. Khan and myself when we were interviewing our municipal employees,
we these interviews um um our our lawyer said down in Redbank these interviews were um lasted maybe a half hour. Ours last an hour and 15 to an hour and a half. And we get so much information and
we I just want to say that without going into very specific stuff which we will um we have a very very dedicated municipality employees. Uh Joanna
>> Oh Jerry Jerry first um I'm going to talk a little bit about some of the interviews that we've done so far. Um, so in pairs, uh, the commissioners conducted structured interviews with municipal employees across multiple departments. Um, so it was either Joanna and me, Joanna and Chris, Chris and me.
I think I got all three. Um, and we uh to date we've interviewed the business administrator, the municipal clerk, the assistant business administrator, uh, the one who just left us, the police chief and staff, the fire chief and staff, the DPW superintendent and staff,
and the recreation director. Interview questions were organized into six topic areas. The first being authority, autonomy, and professional management. The second governing body and political interaction. The third planning, coordination, and long-term vision. The
fourth, budgeting and financial management. The fifth, public engagement and accountability. And the sixth, comparative assessment and recommendations. The following represents preliminary aggregated findings from these interviews. Additional interviews are ongoing and full interview protocols will be
released upon completion of all interviews. So, back to the 1972 finding about the lack of a strong business administrator. That was some important context mainly because our interviews did confirm that the BA reform was critical. Um, so one
thing that municipal employees found works is the strong business administrator system. Uh, multiple respondents emphasized the critical importance of maintaining a strong BA structure. Uh, there's a quote, "As long as the BA is in charge in the form of government, then all will be good. If
there's no strong BA, then it would be the wild west in Florida. Um there was also a concerning pattern um as it related to the strong BA versus the structure of government. Um so that mainly came from the structure versus
the personalities um on the TC. So current TC functioning was described positively with open discussions and members seeking consensus during public meetings. However, multiple respondents emphasized that this depends on who's on the TC and directly quoted has not
always been true during recent memory. Uh, with some noting dysfunction on TC's prior to the current one. The consistent theme across interviews was that Milburn's current form of government works well when it works, but its effectiveness depends heavily on the particular individual serving on the
township committee at any given time. Multiple respondents questioned whether a governmental structure should rely so heavily on the personalities in office rather than providing more built-in stability and continuity. Um so I'll now turn it over to Joanna to share some additional findings.
>> Thank you. Um we heard specifically about TC member preparedness. Strong consensus emerged that TC members face a significant learning curve. It direct quote takes about three years for TC members to completely understand how the
job works. Covering the full cycles of issues, for example, bond ordinances, budget cycles, various operational matters. One person noted, quote, there is no training. They have no idea unquote when they start. The three-year term was categorized as too short
because the one year first year, and this is a quote, the first year they are learning, the second year they start to understand, and the third year they're either running for reelection or a lame duck. When multiple TC seats are in flux, potentially four over the course of two
years, another quote, there isn't carryover and projects aren't seen through to completion. And this led us to the most emphatic finding across all of our interviews. Election frequency. Election election frequency generated
the most consistent and emphatic responses across all of our interviews. Annual elections were described as causing quite a bit of overhead with constant TC turnover requiring ongoing onboarding assistance. It was pointed out that in the last 10 years, only two
TC members have served more than one term with a third recently reelected. Multiple respondents described it feeling like it's always election season with either a general or primary election occurring every six months and that having elections every year causes
reluctance to make big changes. End of quote. Several respondents supported the idea of longer terms and more time between elections. One quote was, "Longer TC terms, four years rather than three years, and more time between elections, more more than one year
versus every year would be better." End quote. When asked what single change could be made to improve the township's governmental structure, the answer was overwhelmingly election frequency. Uh, we also heard about how partisanship affects governance.
Department heads universally stated that partisanship does not affect day day operations. Departments were characterized as non-political with multiple respondents emphasizing their neutrality as public servants. Quote, there isn't a real partisan element to filling potholes for garbage
collection. End quote. However, partisan considerations were identified as significantly affecting governance. Quote, items get delayed around election time. quote and partisan considerations cause unnecessary divisions. Instead of having united front on the TC, the
meeting gets used to score political points rather than focus on what's best for the community. TC members become another quote is TC members become more contentious around election time due to partis partisan nature of elections and the partisanship particularly around
election time often leads to a show which can get in the way of what's best for the town. End quote. Multiple responded respondents felt party labels quote shift the focus away from local issues and noted that since most tactical matters are nonpartisan in
nature. It's not clear that having a partisan election with party labels is helpful as a signal for how someone might vote once they are on the committee. End quote. So these structural issues concrete impact on long-term planning.
Multiple respondents noted significant challenges with the continuity during transition periods of the TC. A specific specific structural problem was identified. The quote this time of year, December through January, it slows down and becomes tough to get things on the
on the TC agenda. From election time in November until the end of January, when new people are sworn in and a mayor is chosen, we can't do much. Sometimes it's tough to wait through the transition period. End quote. One respondent stated bluntly that long-term planning is quote
not well supported because of a lack of continuity due to frequency of elections unquote specifically citing the town hall renovation that in quotes had been under discussion 25 plus years ago but stalled because elections happen so frequently and no one wants to take risks and often projects get stopped due
to political expediency. And while we are moving on to the mayoral selection, the process has recently become quite contentious with one respondent noting the process quote creates adversaries where there is no need for it. It several interviewees
noted to us that there's a lot of hurt feelings, lost trust, and that is not a great way to start each year. One respondent stated, quote, "Most people in town don't understand that they don't select the mayor directly and suggested having a directly elected mayor would
allow for more stability rather than continuous changing who is indirectly selected to serve as mayor." Though they cautioned that a strong mayor, quote, is probably not the right choice for our town unquote. Repeatedly, the staff emphasized that having mayors serve
longer terms rather than one-year rotations would provide more continuity and stability for the public. And I just want to make a note that these are preliminary findings from a portion of our interviews. We are reporting what municipal employees told us, not making
any recommendations or drawing any conclusions. We have many more interviews to conduct and much more analysis is ahead of us. >> Thank you. Thank you, Joanna. Thank you, Jerry. Um, >> so that's right.
>> Yeah. So that's and we and we just did the, uh, presentation, right? >> All right. >> Uh, next item under all business, uh, community outreach, please. >> Um, I can I can address that. Um, we are
continuing community outreach. Um, every week we get more channels added. Um I in addition to the workb list serve and newcomers list serve that give us 200 uh sorry uh 2500 people um I add more and more people through the week as I notice
people asking questions or we have our focus groups that we've met with um so we've added I've added them to the blind copy of the list so anybody who wants to be added to that I'll just continue to grow that list as my own personal I I tackle on I tacked on all the volunteers
that you know we've worked with on rummage sale. Anyone who's sort of civic-minded and and asks questions throughout this process, I um I can probably add it to my database of clients, which I didn't add yet. Um I don't want them thinking I'm working so
hard on this and not on their houses, but um but uh we also we did uh have the question suggested uh last week by um Mr. felt that perhaps we can use the watch uh community watch groups. And we did have our meeting with the police
department. And there was a little bit of a concern about using the airwaves of the watch groups for something like this because then we set a precedent for having every community announcement through those watch groups and it just uh dilutes the messaging of safety and community stuff. But I think that those
are not very big groups anyway. >> Okay. Yeah. So, so we'll we'll figure out other, you know, I know that you guys are sharing it with WhatsApp groups. I think individually each of us sharing um and and it's it's being disseminated through the by the town into newspapers and things like that. I
wonder if we also can add now that we have our dates set ahead, can we add to the calendar of tap into? And if we can't, maybe we put a PR piece in there like we did in the beginning and maybe it's a sort of something static that can be, you know, updated. If it if we lose
some, you know, real estate in there, we could just update it >> and just say the public and >> point them to our website. >> I'm happy to do this topic, too. >> That would be kind of good. >> I think that's our most prominent local online resource. And again, I still go
back and forth with the Happy Melbourne situation because there are so many people who don't live in the town who participate there. I mean, I would ask you guys again, you know, what you think because we have not posted it there.
>> Um, as I, as I said last meeting, no, >> I don't care either way. It's because >> it's public information anyway. >> Yeah, it's public information. So, it's >> anybody can look up the YouTube stuff. Happy Milbourne isn't Happy Milbourne and it goes to every other community.
>> Is there a way to post with comments closed on Happy Milbourne? I just not >> Oh, um I don't know if we can do that. I think the administrators can do that, but we can ask the administrators if they can announce the meetings. >> Yeah, >> maybe that's a way to do it because then there's no crazy commenting or people
going off on tangents. It's sometimes they they pin something and there's a static. Um so that that's a good idea. Yeah, we can work. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> All right. Um, >> where are we on the South Civic
Association? Because I >> I called uh Marily and she'd be more than happy to sit down with us. >> Yes. >> We should also have her >> to promote it. >> Yeah. To >> But she wants to sit down before she'll promote it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Exactly. >> All right. >> She want to just promote the fact that
we have meetings and the schedule of meetings? >> Yes. Um, I haven't uh had I haven't sat down with her yet. >> We changed uh emails. >> Okay. >> All right. >> All right. By the end of this
commission, I'm going to know this by heart. >> Public comment. To speak during the public comment period, please follow these instructions. Ensure your Zoom display name shows your first and last name.
Click the raised hand button. You will be called upon in order in order and promoted to panelist. Please turn on your video when called to speak. Clearly state your full name and whether you are a Milbourne resident or business owner to facilitate an orderly meeting and
permit all to be heard. Please limit your comments to three minutes. A reminder that that the public comment period is an opportunity for residents to share their views with the commission. Commissioners will not respond to questions or engage in dialogue during the speaking time, but
will carefully consider all comments at the end of the public at the end of public comment and and uh public comment period. Questions and discussions may be addressed at the
chair's discret discretion. Uh shall we do the folks in the audience first and then we'll do the uh folks on on Zoom? >> Okay. Uh any of you folks want to say something? >> I'm Jeff Bell. First of all, I want to
thank you and for outreach, you might want to reach out to the patch and to the Milbourne Dispatch, the new trying to be a news organization to put like the meetings down. Um I read >> what was that? Yeah, I saw that. I got a
Facebook thing on that. What is that? >> It's called Mil um dispatch is coming out of Andrew Tran. He's setting him up in like Springfield, West Orange, I think Union around this area to be countered to like tap into. Um
if you can, I would recommend like you put a legend of it, but to post what you've read on the website as as soon >> Yes. >> was excellent. Oh yeah. >> I mean I have when you were reading the original
findings from 19 I think72 the chairman was Thomas J Mo and in my career he was a real influence and made the pixie dust an introduction. One of the things you might want to do, I know it's a lot of work, but you might want to use your
council is to look at some of the administrative code like article two because some municipalities look at state best practices and like some of the comments that was coming from the municipal employees feeling that the people on the local government body didn't have training. They made it part
of like an ordinance recognizing like like the board of education uh like if you're on the planning board and zoning board that it's mandatory that you take some educational courses rather than saying you know voluntarily saying if you want to serve you're going to have to do this because I I thank Jamie
because I think Jamie you one of the in you've gone down to legal municipalities you've taken the intro courses where other TC members refuse to do that and I I welcome that but is structure in the structure of the administrative code that everyone recognizes if you're going
to be elected officially, you need to have an education which is which mirrors what if you're serving on the board of education, a housing authority or a planning or zoning board. But I really welcome the comments that were made >> Ben Stler
Hills. Um I I just echo those sentiments. I think even those preliminary findings very very good. Uh, I can't tell you, you know, and thank you guys for the service you're providing to the town. I know it doesn't always get said, but now sitting on the other side, understanding the amount of
time and commitment, the amount of work that's done, we appreciate it as a town uh to all you guys. Um, in terms of echoing it out, I would also look at the um the library as well as the uh explore
Milburn Shore Hill. Yeah, this is the third meeting I've been at tonight, by the way. >> Right. >> Steve is on my list actually. I send it to him. >> If you get any push back, let me know. But also the library as well because it needs it's going to affect everyone.
It's a so we should try to reach as many people as as possible. And once again, just thanks. Uh yeah, you know, I would say uh say your name Jamie Cerudo, >> lifelong Melbourne short hills resident.
Uh thank you all for uh stepping up for our community. Uh I did join some meeting watched online, but it's great to be in person. Um you know, Ben and I just came from a couple meetings. I had Shri earlier today. Great thing. And you know, you see that it's an education.
I'm the newest member, right? and um I think on the township committee, but the truth is there is so much confusion within the community, whether it be on the campaign trail or whether it be now on, you know, the mayor, how the mayor
is chosen, what the mayor's role is, you know, and in particular, it's um it's residents who are moving into the community from larger cities where the mayor is the chief executive or in communities where they might not have a mayor, you know, in New England there's
supervisors, there's different titles, right? So, there isn't a lot of um education. Um so, I think that's one thing. And it's exhausting. It's exhausting seeing elections every single year. Um you know, at least in my experience being involved uh over the
last several my whole life here actually, you know, just seeing the the sort of the revolving door um you know, it just doesn't make sense. You know, you get one year's a federal election, one year is a state election. uh at least you get a break every other
year on on those categories every single year a local election it's just exhausting >> and the thing you said Julian about understanding I'm on eight different committees and it takes a year to understand what's going on inside that
committee I cannot uh you know say that enough is that once you start to get through to it you're up for election again so now you got a firm grasp everything's going great everything's working you understand it it does so I think I would reiterate that point as well uh because you know it is getting
up to speed quickly uh and and also too I don't even want to dwell on this but the level of competence of people in the township committee seats needs to be some kind of people need to it's not a popularity contest they have to have the confidence and the ability intelligence to be able to understand these issues
and work them through because they are fairly complex and they're all intertwined. >> Yes. And um to uh Jeff Jeff's point, your and your point, Ben, uh when I was on Wall Street, uh you know, be before I
got a seat, I I had to take a course and then we always had continuing ed every six months. So, that is that is a very good point. And >> they're paying you for that, though. >> What? >> They're paying you for that. >> It's hard enough to recruit people to then send them to like a two-year course. They say, "Forget what you
learned in war and we're going to tell you how we do it." >> That's a good point, Joan, because it does create that most popular person type complex where you're not getting paid to do it. I mean, >> it's insane the amount of hours we spend doing this. And you guys can see just from from the work you're doing here.
Uh, and there has to be some certain level of commitment, service, love for the community to do it. Uh, but you have to understand what you're doing, pull it all together. And there's so many moving parts. We have heard that past some past TC members didn't even open up the
freaking packet. >> We know. >> Well, and that's the other thing too. So, we made a point of it. Professionalism, civility, and education. You have to read the packet before the TC meeting. You're not learning that on the night of the TC, which >> in the past was dumb. >> No one you get surprised by what's in
there. And just going further, um, when Corey Bill and Shinook Tanner when they start doing, uh, going to different townships and municipalities,
uh, we are going to look big time into the election cycle and, you know, the mayor, blah, blah, blah. And uh but I thought these um in interviews were really really helpful in formulating out
a thought process. >> And I apologize if I miss this, but did you interview any of the business leaders as well? The owners of of uh of uh >> La Pergola of Arabia. I mean that might be good too because they have they're paying taxes. These are really big.
These are business owners, the owners of the real estate firms, owners of the numerous salons. Uh >> so we we're are looking at we're we're focused on um taking our guidance from this document that we do have um published on on the township website that gives a lot of insight on who
should be interviewed, who shouldn't be. >> Um and they do caution they do caution >> too many interviews. So, we're trying to be very balanced, but it's this change in New Jersey municipal organization document um that is from planning and public policy um section of Redford
University and it really has a great um guideline on on where to go and and the practical aspects of who to interview. And there's actually some more people that aren't even business owners, but like some civic leaders that, you know, we're adding more people as as we interview others and and they're saying,
"Well, how about this and how about that?" So, if we maybe can add Steve Brillo even to to the mix. >> I'd be I'd be very careful taking anything out of the New Jersey out of any New Jersey documentation. Uh, it's
been done. Uh, you don't know who wrote it and even though it's been refined or so you think it's been refined. >> Well, this is what Redbank used and they had a really great and our our attorney recommended this. >> Yeah. But I'm saying don't be scared to look outside the box. Think outside the box. challenge yourselves to not be
scared to look outside the box. I mean, one of the smartest people I ever met sitting up there in terms of jury. So, you know, there's things you're going to be able to glean from a lot of this other stuff. Don't be scared to >> take risk. >> I do want to say that we do intend to put a public survey out. So, anybody who
wants to respond can and share their thoughts with us. It doesn't need to be >> that could be something Steve Gill. >> It doesn't need to be a formal interview. >> Right. Well, I just get input. I don't care how you do it. >> That's my point. We get input from anyone and everyone for this out there survey. >> We're sending right the survey is to get
business owners. It's to get everybody if we don't have a chance to interview you. >> Anyone is disenfranchised taxpayer. It's a business owner or even a lot of residents in this town. >> Well, you don't have to be disenfranchised. >> No, I'm saying they are paying taxes and
>> that's why the survey exists. We can't physically reach everyone, but anybody who's interested can give us their >> we mentioned it at one of the last meetings that we're putting it together and it's a pretty comprehensive survey. I think it's going to give us a lot of insight. So, I think the the more that that gets disseminated, we'll we'll be
able to parse through the information and that would be nice for people in the community like Steve Grill, like the Chamber of Commerce, you know, and and other associations if they can share it on our behalf to get it to their members. people will want to hopefully share their opinions on it. as you go to
phase two. One thing you might want to look at, I mean, the township just did an updated annual spread of payments because it's coming up in Springfield and I think in Mayport that they're increasing is still a stipen to local elected officials. You might want to
look compare like what we pay what they receive as a siphon be more comparable maybe some of the neighboring communities to draw people in >> meaning the higher the stipen you think you'll have more people >> I think you might right now 4,000 you
know you went to like I think >> you get a stipen >> you get 12,000 >> like six other places get 12 >> like make it a little bit more because you have to go in your pocket a lot of things just to look you know how you attract the look because I know in
Springfield which is next door they're trying to increase the amount and I think maybe what it's just done too we don't want to be like Maine where they only pay the assembly people $100 >> for the whole year >> we just got to be careful too that people try to make it a career >> rightation
>> we're not having chief of staff look the the urban areas and >> thank you um is there anyone from I >> anyone up see an
>> unmute. I don't know how to get >> I don't know how to get my picture up there. Can you hear me? >> Yeah, we can hear you. Thank you. >> It isn't Stephen. That's my husband. It's BB Sheer. Um, I live uh I'm a township resident and I have a question about uh well uh I'm wondering if you
can present some of your findings or your most of your findings um in a in a statistical empirical way. For example, what I what I think would be useful would be to know, okay, what was the question you asked? So, you know, we can
evaluate, you know, so we can see how the how the question was posed. Um, and maybe divide into groups like uh divide between municipal employees and uh you know, township for township committee
people, past and present or whatever. And then um uh and then give a figure for uh how many how what's the total number in that group? How many responded uh for example that they favored uh four
uh uh longer terms uh for a township committee? How many said they didn't? How many how many didn't answer? Because when it's just the idea, oh, multiple people said this, multiple, someone said that, I don't think it gives uh as good a view of what really came out of the
interviews as if we could see something, you know, a little more statistical uh and and empirical. So, I mean that that's that's my suggestion. >> So, I I can address that. I I think this is a type of study that doesn't necessarily lend itself to empirical
data because while somebody could say I support this or I support that if they don't have a firm or strong reason behind it. You know the mere check of yes I support or yes I don't doesn't necessarily carry
the same weight. You know somebody might be very thoughtful in their response to I support this and somebody who says I don't might not have been thoughtful. So, I think there's a lot of subjectivity in and analyzing sort of things. So, I I appreciate, look, I'm a very fact-based
sort of data. I love objectivity, but I just don't know the the bang for the buck where you might necessarily get and it might actually throw off um throw off the analysis. >> Well, can I add to that? This document
specifically cautions not weighing one person's opinion because if we're if we're interviewing a municipal employee and certainly we just these were the findings for for the you know general municipal employees that we all value their privacy. Um and and to take a
remark like somebody says oh well I think it should be before your term they've never been an elected official. They don't really know. They're they're going by their gut based on how they've been interacting with somebody over the last 30 years in this, you know, type of form of government that we have. They've seen many TCs come and go. They're
suggestions. And this particular piece cautions us to take suggestions as merely suggestions and and not weigh them. If if we're talking to our attorney who has uh you know, really great information, right? He's got other studies he's participated in. That's a a
person we could then say, "These are our findings. What do you think?" That opinion could weigh heavier on a on our commissioners, you know, collective opinions. Um, and I do think current TC people that we haven't synthesized the
data and we just started our interviews for the former TC um, members. So as we formulate that data, I do believe that we can those specific questions pertaining to years will be you'll have
the data of like seven people think a seven-year term is ridiculous, but they all think four-year term is great. So there will be more numbers and they will come from specifically elected former officials that have had the experience and thought about their service from that back then. So that is data that is
absolutely should be sharable. the opinions behind it maybe are less important but the hard hard facts like they think a five person TC and I'm making it up is fabulous or seven is fabulous or nine is fabulous you know those are things that I think are important to consider by elected
officials that have sat in that seat and understand how that you know deis works >> and just let me say the three of us this is uh this was a prelim uh structure that we did tonight And
when we finalize, we will um as chair, we will give the public specific questions that we ask people. Uh but we are getting so much more information
that we are making it um unofficial and I will not and I you you know on Wall Street as Ben can attest to your word is your bond and I told these folks I'm not going to quote them and that's how come
they give us their uh their their information and they open up to us. So I am not going to forward anybody. >> Dr. B. >> Well, not certainly not municipal employees, right? That that's that's that's you know, and that that is what
our attorney our attorney suggested that we keep the full >> and TC members. >> Well, the TC members will have a chance to allow us permission, >> you know, to say this. Yes. What we're going to send them what what we've taken our notes on to make sure there's no misunderstanding in how we wrote things
to say, hey, there are some things we'd like to publish in the findings. Can you attach your name to this to say I said this, you represented me accurately. And at that point, once we get that permission, you know, but certainly the more empirical data, yeah, four years, five years, five person TC, seven, nine,
those are all things that we can I think people can stand behind their work. It's it's not opinion. it's an opinion that's based in the fact that they've lived this for 3 years or six years or however many terms they've had, they're going to be okay with their opinions being published with that. But we want to be careful. We want to make sure people
speak freely and the answers they give us are important to the decisions that we're making and the public can share in that. I think uh Corey's point about the empirical data for this particular process is less relevant I would say
because for municipal employees there's sort of a wide range of their responsibilities and you know it's hard to say >> 30 plus year employee should they be weighted the same as someone who's been here for two years that's sort of a value judgment that we have to make on our own when we come upon our total findings so
>> I think for TC it makes more sense because you know everyone has >> they've done that role it's the same role I mean their experiences will be different and to that end it does make sense to collect the data but I think >> you know showing for the purposes of tonight's discussion which was
preliminary findings from municipal employees I think you know giving >> where they see the defects like they're seeing it from the outsers's view they're hired by the TC basically through the BA and they're watching it they're watching our meetings they're they have opinions they live in different towns so it's a great set of
opinions to have it just may not They haven't sat there for those threeear terms and and lived that role. So >> thank you very much. >> Penny, where you going? >> Okay. Uh is there anyone else on Zoom?
>> No one else. >> Okay. >> Any other questions? I now close the uh public comment period. Are there any comments from the commission regarding any comments made by the public which we already did? >> Triple. >> What is a triple lettering here?
>> Oh yeah, I know. >> I guess I did want to clarify we will be publishing the questions municipal employees and >> we have sort of a working document that we will upload to the website um >> relatively soon I want to say. I mean I
>> mean for the municipal Yeah. basically a written version of what we Yeah. We just have one person left and then we could you know we'll sit down >> and once those questions go up there that'll be a great time for people who really care about >> because every single employee has also
told us please come back to us if you have more questions because that's always the ending question. two the last two questions are basically have we missed anything and and can we come back to you and everybody overwhelmingly has said yes absolutely come back to us. It's the other thing too uh Jerry, uh
once you're to that point with the surveys, I would do them like we do at the train station because there's so many people who don't know about handed out >> hand out little handouts with a QR code saying, "Hey, this is happening in town." >> I like that. >> So many people going into the city. I mean, literally, they don't know about it. They're they're focused on their
kids and their and their homes. >> You live in town. That's a good idea. >> It's a good point. >> Yeah, that's like >> I like that. Um, >> you could do like a QR code station. >> Well, no, you everyone puts their political sign up on that building. Like
just get a sign with a QR code. >> Yeah. Find Roger. >> Put a put a banner on the train. Try it for a couple days. Find >> Do we get our face in the back? >> I don't want that. Are we closed or
>> I just want to ask uh our council a question. Um I know three people you know it's a quorum. It is very difficult for let's say Joanna and I are interviewing
somebody Jerry and I are interviewing and then we want to combine you know questions you know their answers and everything. Is there a way that we could do that without, you know, violating said law,
>> without noticing a formal meeting under Oprah? >> Yes. >> Um, the requirements are clear. Unfortunately, we could talk, we could talk offline about some ways to perhaps facilitate communication, but in terms of a meeting between more than two of you. No, that has to be a public meeting. >> Is it possible? I know TC handles it in
a way like they they notice the meeting, but they have a closed door meeting. So that applies to the TC. I got it. Yeah. Closed room means here would be really for things that >> pretty much only things that involve like attorney client privilege and that wouldn't that wouldn't fall under it. >> That would make life easier. You're
absolutely right. >> Let me let me ask you to this moment to discuss it I guess. But that's good that the public sees us discussing it and that's exactly the purpose. That's the whole purpose of it is so that people see our arguments and >> I I was I was alluding more towards you
know our findings and then coming up with you know statements and you know stuff like that. So so we all three of us don't you know I don't you know I talked to Jerry then I talked to >> Yes. That's what we have to do. When
when I was on Wall Street, >> we played telephone. >> Suzanne, when I was on Wall Street, um >> I was an arbitrator for 20 years >> and you know there were three of us and when we wanted to discuss a certain point, we had a executive session. So we
went into executive session away from the claimant and and the respondent. Is there any way that I could say, "Hey, I want to have an executive session." So I think I think that was just um Joanna's question with regard to how the TC operates in this form. We don't really have that opportunity short of needing
to go into a close session for um like a matter of attorney client privilege >> but very complex technical legal question. >> Exactly. Not just for general discussions relating to the business of the commission. Uh because those are all
things that under the open public meetings act need to be need to be handled with the public here. >> Well, thank you for that. >> Sorry. >> Okay. Um that's all I have. Uh may I have a motion to Jerk, do you have something?
Any any other commissions commission have something? >> May I have a motion to adjourn the meeting? >> All right. Second. >> All in favor? Hi. >> Thank you folks on. Thank you chair and >> congratulations in the end.
>> Go.