Hey Jerry, can you hear me? >> Yeah, I can hear you. >> Good. Phew. [laughter] >> Is is is anyone else on here now? >> Uh Shauk just joined. I'm adding him. Hey, Shinook.
>> Hello. Can you guys hear me? >> There you are. >> Awesome. Sorry. >> Where in the world are you? >> Sitting in my office in my house. [laughter] >> Is Mr. >> Happy the world behind you?
>> Still in my office. Is there anyone else on here yet? >> Um, there's three members of the public. >> Okay. >> But no other commissioners waiting in the room.
>> Okay. [clears throat] We are expecting Corey and Joanna. >> Yes. Well, we actually have a quorum because there's three of us. They don't But Joanna and Corey both said that they
would uh be on the meeting. >> Yes. Um >> sometimes it takes time to log on. So, let's just give them a couple of minutes. So, maybe I can just text one of them. >> Oh, Janna said technical difficulties.
>> I had technical difficulties. [clears throat] I'm Are you having trouble signing on? >> No, it's 7 o'clock. Uh, I'll have Jerry send it to you. Okay. No.
Okay. All right. Bye. >> All right. Corey thought it was 7:30, so he's going to his office now. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Um, should we
get started? Uh, Janna said [clears throat] Zoom kicked her out. Should I call Joanna? >> Yes. >> All right. Let me let me call Joanna. >> Oh, there's Joanna.
>> Oh, good. Good. >> Yeah, cuz I got Joanna's voicemail. >> Hey Joanna. >> Hey guys. I was already here for an hour before you guys got here. I set my entire bed up set up and then uh
filmed. >> All right. where I am. >> Good, good, good. Um, let's just wait two minutes for uh Corey. All right. He said, "Uh oh, look at you.
Where are are you at your house?" >> Nope. I'm at an event and I'm going to another event after that. So, I said I I came here an hour early to set up my entire Zoom. I connected, but our connectivity is uh not ideal. So, it disconnected me while I went to the
event and I [laughter] like all all things were perfect, but we're good. >> All right. Um Oh, there's Corey. >> I see Corey. >> Hey, Corey. >> Rucker, we have no camera for you, right?
>> Oh, here. >> I don't know where. Yeah, Corey, you're you're on mute. Sorry about that. >> Okay, good. All right, good. Uh, well, let's let's start. Um, good evening.
Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the December 18, 2025 meeting of Milbourne Township Charter Study Commission, which is called to order. In accordance with section five of the Open Public Meeting Act, chapter
231, Public Laws 1975, [clears throat] be advised that notice of this meeting was made by posting on a bulletin board in town hall and forwarding to the official designated newspapers that this meeting would take
place on Zoom at 7:00 on Thursday, December 18, 2025. meeting details and the draft agenda have been posted. I kindly ask everyone to please all stand for the pledge of allegiance. Uh
let's say the pledge of allegiance. Uh, I pledge allegiance to the flag to the flag of the United States of America >> and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with
liberty and justice for all for all. Thank you. Uh, I will now call I will now call a roll call vote to note those present. >> Mr. Biller >> here.
>> Dr. Kung is here. Miss Parker Lent >> here. >> Mr. Tana >> here. >> Mr. Ducker >> here. >> Okay. The record will show that we have a quorum for this meeting. Uh may I have
a motion to approve the uh the agenda? >> So moved. >> Is there a second? >> I second. >> All in favor? >> I Good. Um, may I have a motion to approve the
December 4th, 2025 meeting minutes? >> All right. Is there a second? >> I second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Beautiful. Uh, reports. Are are there any commissioners with reports since our
last meeting? Um, so there's a discussion item for interviews under old business. So I'll wait until that portion for that discussion. Um, I did want to note that um, we should come up with a schedule
for our meetings uh, after January 8th. So if whenever everyone gets a chance, just send me your availabilities and I'll try to work something out and send across a proposal for meeting dates. Um, so we do need to get that somewhat soonish. So we can notice them. Um and
we can also make arrangements for meeting in person. So we have to book those locations as well. >> Okay. Um Jerry, uh there is a discussion. Well, Jerry, can you do item number nine?
>> Uh so the the interviews. Um yeah. So we'll we'll we'll talk about the interviews once we get to the uh >> business items. Yeah. >> Okay. Um, I have some stuff to talk about the the the interviews, but we'll wait on
that. Are there any other commissioners with with reports? >> I see I see none. Let's continue. All right. Uh, public public comment to speak during the public comment period. Please follow
these instructions. Ensure your Zoom display name shows your first and last name. Click the raise hand button. You will be called upon in order and promoted to panelist. Please turn on your video when called to speak. Clearly
state your full name and whether you are a Milbour resident or a business owner. To facilitate an orderly meeting and permit all to be heard, please limit your comments to uh three minutes. Is there anyone that wants to say something?
>> Uh, looks like Jay Morali. So, let me Hello. >> Hi, Jay. I'll >> assume you can hear me and see me. >> Yes. >> Okay. Tonight I am uh speaking on behalf of the board of the Short Hills
Association. Um, we feel it's our duty as a civic organization to um do what we can to um uh make this process um as meaningful uh for the community as
possible. So, I've got a couple comments uh a couple suggestions and a concern that we would like to raise. Um, first we'd like to commend the commission uh on its plan for community outreach and
soliciting input from members of the community. We think it's important that uh members and residents of the town uh that will be impacted by any uh change to the government have an opportunity to speak and everything that you can do to
facilitate that is appreciated. Secondly, uh we would like to commend the commission on the selection of Michael Collins as the lawyer. I think that was in tonight's agenda. Uh Michael did a fantastic job as the Red Bank uh
Charter Commission uh lawyer and I've had uh numerous conversations with Michael on many aspects of the Charter Commission. So I think he is a excellent choice. Um, one minor note, finding your
agenda, uh, took a bit of work. Um, there is no link per se on the Charter Study Commission page to the agendas and it was non-intuitive, but uh, we did manage to find it after a fair bit of
hunting. So, we suggest uh, you get the link to the agendas. Uh so if people um are interested in joining, they have the ability to um know what's going to be on the agenda um ahead of time. Um we'd
like to make a suggestion that the commission consider making the public comment section uh uh session or this aspect more interactive and more dialogue oriented without a hard time limit. We feel this would benefit the
commission by giving them the chance to clarify questions that the public may ask. Um we don't think so far based on the online attendance that it would be an undue burden or a huge extra time
commitment and we think dialogue is far more valuable than listing off a number of questions some which may or may not be answered. Um, our next question we have is, "Have you considered hiring a
municipal government expert to help the commission evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of the various forms of government to help uh when you look at alternatives based on any issues that
the commission identifies? Um and also so far have you as a group identified any specific problems that you can relate to our current form of government? Um, finally, a concern we
would like to raise. Um, and that had to do with the comments at the last meeting that, uh, the goal was to complete this effort in 6 months. Um, to avoid any concerns of a rush to judgement or a predetermined outcome. Uh, we suggest
the commission take all the time needed within the constraints of the Faulner Act to reach its conclusions. Uh, and that concludes my my input. Thank you. >> Thank you, Jay.
Uh, I Does anyone else have a comment from the public? Okay. I now close the first public comment period. Are there any other comments from the commission regarding any comments made by the public? >> Yeah, I I think Jay, I think it's a good
suggestion, so I appreciate you you coming forward. I think as far as changing the public comment section to be more of a dialogue. Um I think there there's some merit to that. Um I don't have an issue with it practically. Um I
think you're right that so far there hasn't been a lot of participation. And that was my only hesitation is that if there's a lot of participation, creating a dialogue will just extend the time and maybe cause duplication. And but I think we could potentially play it
by ear that if we're not getting a lot of participation during the meetings, we could consider the dialogue style of of of public comment and then if it's getting out of control, we can sort of revert back to the more traditional style. Um presuming that that that's permitted.
As far as public accessibility of the agenda, I too would like to see that publicized a little bit more so that we can actually get more participation in the meeting. And two of the things that I was thinking of is having our our meetings announced during the
applicable TC meeting. So that because the TC meeting has a little bit more attendance than ours. And so for the weeks that we have well, we are going to have meetings every week it seems like. So for the weeks that there are TC meetings at least they can announce um that we're also going to have a meeting and the the date and time as well as
potentially and and we had discussed this anyway uh drafting a tap into article which which you know we Jerry had discussed getting our availability so we can come up with a a schedule and and so that I would imagine would be part of the article is publishing the schedule and a tap into article which
has a broader reach than even the TC meetings and then we can think of some other creative ways to to get our get our uh get more aware awareness because I think it is our intention to get as much input as possible.
>> Uh thank you Corey and I also I do not have a problem with uh dialogue with the public. you know, this uh 3 minutes thing is, you know, primarily for various uh commissions and and
committees. And another point that Jerry brought up, we have not we have not uh come up with any any policy decisions yet. So, you know, we could put that to bed now. And uh we are not we are not
rushing, okay? We we are not rushing this at all. So trust trust me and we are doing a yman's job of interviewing people as we speak. Okay. So with that
let's go to um number 13 resolution 0. >> Yes. >> Can I just say something in response to the public comments? I just want to put it on the record that uh uh um it is easy to just type in Melbourne Township
agenda center in Google. It takes you to a website with page with Melbourne Township page with all the agendas and you can select charter commission under category and filter and you get all the uh at least it took me like 30 seconds to find this and I didn't even know this
page existed. So I agree we should make an effort to have the agenda distributed more broadly as Corey agreed to. Um but uh hopefully it's not too easy too difficult for somebody who's looking. Uh just wanted to hear exactly what you
typed in. You said uh >> I typed in Melbourne Township Agenda Center. I actually just typed in Melbourne Township agenda and uh the first website that comes up is agenda center Melbourne
Township, New Jersey. You click on that on the right hand side you have a select a category. You select charter commission and you search and then all the three meeting agendas popped up right away.
But is there any is it is it legal and proper for us to potentially publish the agenda on our website for the charter commission >> or it is on this is through I mean this is the Milbour Township >> Township. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But we have also a page right so I wonder if you can
just put an agenda link there that would be great. Yes. >> I I think the issue is right now there's there's sort of three places. Um, there's the official charter study commission tab on the township website which has the meeting dates and the Zoom link and then
there's the township agenda center which is where the agenda is posted. And so there's I think there's a missing link between the charter study specific tab and then the agenda. It's sort of like the township committee page has a link to the agenda center. So I think that's
sort of what we're missing. Um, and I'm happy to talk to Christina about that. >> Okay, cool. Sounds like we have a solution. >> Yeah. >> All right. >> Um I had some other Shock if you're done. I I had some other uh responses to
the comments made by the public. >> Please go ahead, Jar. >> Oh, okay. Sure. Um Yep. So, that was number three. Um consider more public comments. Yeah, I I I'm not opposed to this. Um, you know, I as long as it's it
stays productive. I know sometimes back and forths can sometimes get sidetracked and derailed. Um, but as part of the study process, I think other commissions also have special meetings where they invite the public to have a conversation. Um, and so that might be
something to consider. you know, we when when we're further along in the process, we invite the public to have sort of a forum style conversation rather than the normal public comment that you would see during, you know, regular meetings. Um,
hiring a municipal government expert. Uh, we have not discussed this to my knowledge. I did see that Redbank had a municipal government expert that they referred to in their report. Um, I did talk to the chair of the Redbank Charter
Commission and they had actually hired that municipal government expert prior to the charter study process. Um, and that was mainly due to issues that were sort of pervasive in their prior form of government. Um, and actually one of the things that that municipal government
expert had recommended was to go through the charter study process. Um, so uh that's that question. Um, sorry, my handwriting has deteriorated considerably. Have we identified specific problems? I
think that um we can discuss that a bit more when we get to this segment on interviews. >> Um, and yep, as uh Mr. Dreer said, we're not, you know, rushing. We're just trying to get as much work done as possible in the
time that we're given. Can I make [snorts] one one additional comment >> to Mr. Dropper's comment that we're not rushing? We're absolutely not rushing. We're just trying to actually be very efficient with anyone who is available, anyone who is on downtime like this
week, next week, people aren't as busy because if they're in town and they're not traveling, they're available. So, we're literally Chris and I or you know, we've divided who's interviewing who. We're just tackling people strategically
as we have been known to do in our fundraising years. We're strategic about who's available, how they're available, and we fit ourselves into their nooks and crannies of availability, which is why we think we're going to be pretty efficient in how we strategize and
maximize our time. We never want to compromise the quality. Um, and and we we just want to assure everybody that we have the ability to maximize to the greatest ability for the least amount of money. To Jerry's point, if we don't have to hire somebody, we'd rather not.
If we don't drag out a process, we'd rather not. So, >> uh, thank you Joanna. And just to piggyback what Joanna has said, so far uh we are using um
a lot of our time interviewing the uh people in town hall. We are starting and uh we we have been interviewing the uh current TC members and starting next
week we will start interviewing department heads and the rank and file. So, you know, Joanna has a business, I am retired, uh Jerry has a business, and the three of us are doing the
interviews, and then once we get done with phase phase one, Shinook and Corey Bella uh will start phase two, and we will all be in in involved. Trust me, we
are doing this methodically and uh I have to admit the people in Milbour Township uh the folks that work right here uh for Milbour, they've been extremely helpful, extremely
informative. So I do not want anyone anyone to think we are rushing this. We are not rushing this. These these uh interviews take anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half and they are
extremely informative and we are doing uh you know we're taking our own time to do this. Okay. So I I I want to get that out of anyone's head that we are rushing this. Okay. Let's go on. Uh resolution
25- 004 authorizing the award of contract for legal services study commission attorney King Mes and Collins LLP. The resolution authoritizes the appointment of Michael L. Collins of
King Mesh and Collins LLP as consult to the commission at a blended rate of $225 per hour not to exceed $45,000. Um I'm going to pause for a second. Uh
any comments from the commissioners? >> Okay. >> You know, I was just thinking about it. Sorry, Chris. I mean, I don't think we're going to come close to $45,000, but did did they discuss potentially a discount a further
discount on their rate if we do cross that threshold? Um, we did not, but this is um we we allotted for, you know, uh x x extra
time if if we needed it. So, you know, I don't think we're going to come close to 45,000, but you know, I'd rather be safe than sorry, you know. >> Yeah. I guess I I guess my point is that if we can establish a discount that they're willing to give us beyond 45,000,
it helps encourage them to be a little bit more efficient because they're not making as much money after that that number. >> Yeah. So, I think the resolution um is just authorizing the appointment. So, the actual contract
>> I don't think that stops us from moving forward today. I'm just sort of bringing it up. >> Yeah. >> No, no, no. That's a good point. Um, and I just meant um, that's a good thing to keep in mind because this will start the sort of contract negotiation process. So that that's something that we can
>> put into that. Um, just for additional context, um, I'd spoken to Mr. Collins and he he basically said that our needs are at most equal to what Redbank was needing
and they spend 34,000. So, it's it's unlikely that we'll hit that, but that that is a good point, Corey, that we should consider, you know, negotiating a discounted rate if we go beyond the not to exceed. >> Okay. Yeah, we can discuss um we can
discuss it um assuming the resolution passes and and we start the negotiations with him. >> Well, well, with that said, motion to approve resolution 25-004. >> I second. Who who made a motion? I didn't hear
that. Oh, Joanna. I see. You second? >> Yep. >> Okay. Um, let's have a roll call, please. Jerry. >> Uh, Mr. Biller. >> Yes. >> Dr. Kung votes yes. Miss Parker Lent. >> I vote yes.
>> Mr. Tenner? >> Yes. >> Mr. Ducker? >> Yes. >> All right. The motion passes. All right. Uh, old business. Oh, I was ahead of myself before. Interviews.
Um, discussion of interviews. Oh, Jerry. >> Yeah. So, um, as we've already alluded to, we've started the interview process. Um, Mr. Ducker and I have interviewed Christine Gaddy part one. Um, we only
had half an hour, so we only got through about a third of the interview questions. Um, we'll be meeting with Christine in the new year. Um, and we met with Tim Hoffman before he left us for Hackinack. Um, and
we were scheduled to uh Joanna and I are scheduled to speak with Mr. McDonald on Tuesday. Um, and I think Joanna and or Miss Parker Lens and Mr. Ducker have been interviewing current TC members. Um, so I don't know if you want to >> Yeah, talk about that.
>> You can elaborate. Um, so we by tomorrow morning is our last interview. So by by the end of tomorrow, we will have concluded all of the active TC members and we haven't interviewed anyone. Well, there's one that's rolling over, but we haven't interviewed anybody new is
coming on in the new year. We're waiting until that happens. Uh, you know, they're sworn in. So basically, we have all five interviews completed by the end of tomorrow. I've been synthesizing the information. uh we'll circulate it to the commissioners um as soon as we have
everything cohesively put together and edited. Um takes a little time to put that together. Um Jerry, thank you for helping make that process easier. And as of next week, since Chris and I have an agenda, we figured before the the
breaks, whether it's holiday breaks, the new year, we wanted to get everyone right before they get crazy in holiday mode and and also downtime. um we we get everybody, you know, done with for active for next week before everyone in
in town hall goes on break. Uh Chris is trying to arrange for department head interviews and he's been extremely successful in the first uh two days of the week because we know after Wednesday, Wednesday or beyond it's it's you know done until the new year. So
we're hoping to tackle the department heads between Monday and Tuesday. We have two out of four and Chris will keep us posted on that as of tomorrow and hopefully by Monday, Tuesday we'll have those reports in as well so we can
report on our findings. Um how much how granular should we be getting tonight to inform the public regarding you know what so far the should we wait for all five TC members or >> I I so this is a good question. Um I
think that we should hold off on getting into specifics as to what we have found from the interviews so as not to color the interviews that are coming after this. >> Um so if we you know unfortunately if we were to answer Mr. Morali's question from earlier about specific problems
that have been highlighted so far that could color the responses from future interviewees. Um, so I would hope that we would hold off on that until we conclude the process so that we would have, you know, unbiased responses from the ones yet to come. >> Right.
>> Yeah. I I I totally I totally agree. You know, when we all took took this oath, you know, and the five of us when we had our initial meeting, you know, we're going into this with an open mind. We
don't have any preconceived notion on which way you know uh we will suggest to the TC in the general public you know I mean we have been getting extremely Joanna Park Lens can can attest to this
we have been giving uh uh uh things all over the place so it's very interesting and we've been taking copious notes so for us to make a policy decision after we just interviewed five people is ridiculous,
>> right? Well, we haven't even interview Well, we've interviewed two folks who are employees and four from the TC. So, it is definitely informative for us, but we're still very much in the learning phase. And I think as we're open to learning and interesting to learn from one person to the next and the coolest
thing about these interviews is that everybody is open to be reintered as Chris and I or Jerry and Chris. And you know, Tuesday will be Jerry and I. We express to everybody that we'd love to come back to them if we learn something that is a new question from the next
party that we interview and we can come back and everyone's like, "Please come back." And they're, as far as we can tell, and and I think we're certainly Chris and I are have been working together in the field of fundraising and people um for a very long time. I think we're pretty good judges of like honest
and transparent communication. and everyone seems to be very very good about talking about their experiences on TC as employees and it's been a really good positive experience. So I think we
can gain a lot from the future interviews and I'm really excited actually to springboard from this week to past TC members and another TC member was uh suggested to us yesterday to take us back before the 1990s. So Chris,
we'll get on top of that as well. But we're we were thinking as part of the phase one interview process in this part of the study is as we and that's what we want. We're not trying to rush it. We're just trying to be cognizant of holidays and not drag anyone's feet. So this week
was important, next week's important. And then we'll probably be like out of commission for two weeks in terms of being productive. So that's why we're rushing this part. But I do think we'll be able to springboard from this grouping of interviews and take the next
round of people and judge what we are actually asking and be more informed on how to respond to their responses because the people who have real history will give us perspective that the current TC doesn't have potentially. And I think as we gather
the information from now it's going to be 1980s through the current um we will be well informed to give the public a real proper you know cohesive answer so that the next phase is properly done when we study the other towns and we
don't want to leave any stone unturned. So we want to make sure that the municipal workers and the department heads and the people who lead our town who are financially responsible for us and we are beholden to them and we pay you know taxes to pay these salaries are
all working cohesively. We don't any want anyone to give us false answers. We hope that we you know are eliciting the transparency that Chris and I and Jerry so far have found to be the case. I I think Joanna in in order to help
maintain that what sounds like a very transparent conversation is we have to be very care careful about maintaining confidentiality to the greatest extent possible because if people think that we're talking about their answers or identifying their answers then they're going to be more apprehensive about
giving truthful and >> right I was just going to say that cannot link a response to a person and we can talk in general generalities what we uncover covering, but let's avoid. >> Yeah. I I think that their answers can inform our questions for future people,
but I don't think we should be disclosing people's specific answers to the public. >> No, no, no, no, no, no. We are not. We are not we are not we uh when Joanna and I interview people we the questions that
we came up with uh in conjunction with Jerry uh nobody will know their answers it's going to be in a comprehensive report >> so you know for for instance you know whoever a department head or a municipal
worker you know our our questions appointed, but nobody will know what department it came from. It's it's it's going to be >> collective. It'll be a collective of information and we'll say this is this is how these departments feel.
>> I not it's not proper for us to disclose which municipal employees we're interviewing. It it's not our job. We're not the business administrator. We're just interviewing for the sake of getting an honest answer. And because Chris and I have volunteered for so many years with a lot of these people who work with us, I think there is a trust
factor. So when we say we're taking notes for sure, we're going to report back what honest feedback we get. We don't want sugarcoated. We want honest answers and we would like proper change. But I think overall and the overarching
perspective is that our municipality has things that are so great and people who care so much and our government and uh the way that the business administrator and top down employees work is like
superb. So I think the fact that we're coming from this place of a greatness that we can be proud of is amazing. And I think people want us to get better. they have not held back with things they would like to be changed and we're to to Jay's point we we will enumerate
especially after this week I think we could probably say you know like the suggestions because they were really smart suggestions and actually universal so I I understand your point Cy Jerry we're not going to inform any future interviewees opinions by what their
suggestions are but they're pretty great and pretty uniform without anyone knowing what they're saying. >> Okay. >> So, >> and um >> Joanna, you said it a lot better than Chris Ducker could [laughter] >> just to let you know. >> You're the mouthpiece of the interviews.
I'm I'm taking a lot of notes and and uh you know, it's >> um >> I do have to add >> Cord, did you want to elaborate on something, Corey? >> No, no, I'm good. >> Jerry, I I did want to add that um >> this this process has been very
interesting. Um because it feels like I I mean certainly we haven't done this process in the last 53 years. So, you know, none of the people that we're talking to have gone through this process, but I feel like everyone has been very willing to share their experiences and there hasn't been this sort of feedback process. And so, you
know, people have served on TC and there's no like exit interview or anything, at least as far as I'm aware, where all of these things get collected, right? And so also from the municipal employees perspective, they see all of this every day, but they never really have a chance to tell anyone, hey, the
here are the things that, you know, aren't working out so well for us. You know, what can we do about it? So, I think it's just a really great opportunity to go through this process and to actually collect the feedback that has been going through people's heads, but maybe hasn't been gathered in uh, you know, organized format.
>> Well, it's a chance for improvement from an already really great place. >> Yes. And when people don't think things are really broken, they may not analyze how it can get better. And we we all have chance to evolve. And change doesn't have to be crazy bad. It can
just be little changes that make things so much better for everybody. And I know the entire township is not going to tune into these things. And I think that's what we were talking about yesterday in one of our interviews is like I'm sure half the people who live here probably don't know who any of us are just
because they're not tuned in for a variety of reasons. Not for bad reasons. It's just the way that statistics work. You live in a place but you may not be paying attention to the public things that you know like [clears throat] this commission or even TC and because it's
not broken. If it was broken, there'd be a hundred thousand pitchforks saying it's really faking broken. If it's not broken, they're not showing up to complain. There's a couple people. So, that's what we want to engage more people to to get the better improvements. Not to find out how we're
broken, just to how how to improve. I think that's what all the people we've interviewed want to say. How do we improve? >> Yes. Thank you. Shinook, do you have anything? Um >> we said we good.
>> Good. Good. Okay. Um um we're all we're all done with the with the uh in interviews. Uh so far uh next item under old business community outreach
seems that we're lacking in that. So we have to get better in that. So, um, >> yes, >> you and I, um, >> should we go to town hall and see if we can make this more accessible and easy
for folks? >> Um, >> I don't know how to do this. >> I I think the first the most important thing is to get our website in order. Um, and I know we had discussed a little last time about FAQs. Um, so we should
maybe have a, you know, subcommittee of two people to hammer that out. Um, and get that in order on the website. Maybe that's a good goal for the new year. >> Tuesday. Well, what do you think after our interview on Tuesday, do you think
we spend an hour of fleshing out the FAQ? >> Yeah. >> And then you can circulate it anonymous. not obviously but we can't communicate with all five of us but let's circulate it to the commissioners and let's figure out if the FAQ is fleshed out enough to
put out there for the new year so the public can say this is what's there and I would love to also get our our um input so our FAQs go out there but then we have the ability for the public to say these are the questions we'd like asked or the way like Jay came here to
tell us his concerns but we don't have to wait for weekly or if people can't show up and they don't want to show up or be on their put their face on video, they can put their comment of, hey, this is what I think could be great. Look at this video. Look at this this, you know, somebody sent me a video, which I sent
to you guys separately in individual emails. Um, and it would be great to just have the public more engaged. And of course once we get the FAQ we'll put our messaging out to our each of our networks which I think look I have got a network of 2,000 in one uh you know list
serve and 500 another. That's my own two. Everybody has their own WhatsApps. They have their own list serves. They're happy Milbour. So we'll be able to get it out there as soon as we get that fleshed out. So maybe Tuesday is our goal to flesh it out and then we can individually edit and put it out for the
new year. >> Yes. I would I would like to see that law changed that um >> you know we could only meet in a >> tusome good luck with that. Good luck with that. You've got to be a higher elected
official drer and you you your wife is going to um not be okay with that. >> Threaten what my mother threatened. You know >> I hear you >> you know. >> Jerry um can you take 23 and 24?
>> Oh yes. Um, I did want to also ask because as I reached out to Matt Lari, our township CFO, about the uh attorney that we uh had a not to exceed for 45,000, he asked if we had come to come
up with a total budget for anticipated spend um since it's going to come out of the 2026 township budget. So, [clears throat] I just wanted to put out there, you know, does anyone have anything else that we think we might want to spend money on? Um, you know, I don't think Matt's going to hold us to
this hard and fast. It's just he wants an estimate to work with. >> Jerry, I I was actually kind of thinking as everyone was talking about publicity is maybe we spend some budget on kind of similar to when we ran either business cards or pamphlets that we can hand out
even at the train station at downtown, you know, at at >> at the deli and stuff. Well, not the Delhi because it's a lot of non-milburn people, but like the the train the two train stations just to >> try to capture people who aren't normally paying attention to the
standard channels. >> I have an idea, Corey. >> Corey, that's I'm sorry, Joanna. Let me Corey, that's a great idea, >> right? And I have an I love it, too. I have an idea. If we can get a business card with a scan card, a scan bar on the
other side. Yeah, >> we could probably get that printed as a favor. I have a printer who does a lot of business with me and and he does his civic responsibility to our town. He's business in town is amazing. >> Like the QR code kind of thing, >> a QR code on one side that takes us to
the website to the FAQ. So, just to say like charter study like whatever little mini FAQ with each of our names on the front and whatever our email address that we want to say. So when we pass it out, it's like, "Hey, if you have questions, you met us here when we were
campaigning. Log on to here. Put your questions in." So just give them >> We can create a a one email that goes to the website or or that's tied to the website so they see that too. That way it takes less real estate on the on the card. >> Correct. Just But literally like a
two-sided small card, so it's inexpensive and we don't have to like it's part of our zero budget. >> Okay. I love I love that. It's like fest, Chris. >> You and I will uh I I will help you on
that. >> Yeah. Well, it's exactly what you and I do for October Fest. We make business cards for each of our names. We pass people we sponsor. On one side is a QR code to like go to our website to get everything, all the information. So, I think that's what we have to do. And then we personally hand those out. But
in addition, that's in addition to and I love that, Corey, because it's in person. The rest of it just has to be through our networks and our FAQ page. So >> other than that, I can't think of really >> what we would have a budget for. >> No, no,
>> no. >> Expert that Jay Morali said if it's necessary after the fact maybe. So they hired him before to your point, Corey. So I feel like if we're feeling along with the attorney because I feel like we're going to rely on the attorney's advice as well. Um, so if we're feeling
very inept after and I think people like Jay Morali and you know which people who ran against us who didn't win have a lot of knowledge if we haven't gained the knowledge of the folks that you know care about this topic by the time that
we meet an expert in a couple months when phase one is done maybe we reevaluate after phase one however long that takes to say hey is it time to hire the expert or not. I I know it's hard to budget for that, but I'm hoping to save money because I think we're all intelligent people and I think our town
is full of intelligent people whose shoulders we can stand on as well. >> Yeah. So, so Jerry, >> I don't know. We might want to just have Jerry like like a $100 administrative cost potential or something like that in in case we need to
>> print the reports or do something silly, but just some we don't have to spend it, but as long as we budget something. Well, I was going to suggest $5,000. So, >> okay. [laughter] >> Well, there is the printing of the report right at the end. >> Yes. >> So, there is that,
>> right? >> Right. Okay. Um >> Jerry, are you are you finished? >> Yeah, I I didn't have anything else. >> Good. >> All right. Public public comment to speak during the public comment period,
please. Uh again, ensure your Zoom display name shows your first and last name. Click the raised hand button. You will be called upon in order and promoted to the panelist. Please turn on your video when called to speak. Clearly state your full name and whether you are
a Milbourne resident or a business owner. And to facilitate an orderly meeting, forget the three minutes. Let's do a half hour a person. [laughter] >> Can we do that? So legal. So, you know what? We
we're not like other commissions or committees or whatnot. As we've said numerous times, we we want the public, you know, to so I do not have a problem
5, 10, 20 minutes, what whatever it takes, you know. So, does anyone have um Jerry does do you see anyone that raised their hand? Yeah, I see Jay. >> All right, Jay. >> Jay, go ahead, Jay. >> He's
>> There he is. >> There he is. >> Yeah, just so you know, it takes a few minutes. Um, when you do click to let the panelist in, um, it launches a new version of the application for me here.
So, it takes a few minutes, a few seconds. Um, So you guys are aware on your end. Um I agree with Mr. Dreer. Don't uh sell yourself short. Give yourself enough budget so you don't need to go back to ask for more. I don't think anybody's
going to give you a hard time uh if you ask for an extra 5K or 10K. Uh if you don't spend it, all the better. So um uh do what you need to do. Uh but uh hopefully you don't need to go back for
more. Um I do uh have and you answered part of this with regard to the interviews. Um the question we had was do you plan to publish the interview questions and summaries? Obviously, to
the point that you guys made before, you don't want to um out anybody. Um but I think it would be helpful for the public uh or we believe it would be helpful for the public um to definitely publish the
questions you asked. and then summary um anonymized responses um we think is is you know something that would help the public understand and help you reach how you reach your conclusions. Um uh uh
another tricky one that uh we didn't quite know how to phrase, but uh it goes along the lines of how do you plan to deal with any or how do how do you plan to deal um should you come across any
improper interactions between um elected officials and township employees that come out during the interview process. Um, for example, um, say you were talking to the police chief and you asked the question, "Has anything, uh,
inappropriate ever been requested from you?" For example, quashing a noise complaint from a neighbor of a TC member. Um, have you thought at all about what you intend to do with that information? Um if you do get um um
those type of responses, if you do ask tough questions like that, um what you will do if you get a response back that to you feels like it's um you know it's a problem with the form of government we
have where TC members are going to department heads or to employees etc. Um uh finally um uh um and and I and again the question of rushing and I heard
everything that people said and and I'm I'm grateful for it. Um but I I I walked away from last uh the last meeting where Commissioner Parker Lens talked about the importance of reaching out to the public for questions before you start
interviewing. Um, and I don't and and correct me if I'm wrong, but I've not seen anything on Facebook. I've not seen anything in Tap into I've not seen anything on any anywhere where the commission is soliciting. So, going back
to the point of of rushing, um, uh, if you do truly believe getting the input of the public is important, um, you know, stating that we'd like to have phase one wrapped up in January
before you don't even have a a communication plan. Seems like, and again, don't it's feedback. Um, try I don't want you to be defensive. I just want you to think about what you know you your your words being consistent
with your actions. Um so I realize that there is a drive to get this done. Um but again it it feels to me like on the one hand you're saying we want to solicit input from the public. Let's think about that in January, but you're
also saying we'd like to wrap up phase one in January. So again, it it it just feels like you're trying to push this through and not doing really what you would like to do because you're trying to do it quickly. So just my two cents
from from looking in from the outside. Um and then the final question um is um given that um some TC members um have in the past made specific comments on what
they would like to see the outcome of the charter study to be. How can the public be assured that the commission will not be influenced by those statements from sitting TC
members? Um, and again, if you want to dialogue, I'm happy to dialogue. If there's others waiting for questions and you want to do it the way you've done it in the past, it's your commission. Take it away. >> Well, Jay, >> wait. Hold on. Hold on.
>> Here we go. Uh, let me uh let let me >> hand raised. I've had a hand raised for a sec. Sorry, Jerry. Jerry put my hand raised for a second. I was I was only gonna address mine. If you can't see my hand raised. I'm not sure if you can see it on the screen. I have all of us on the same screen. Jerry put my hand up
for a second. I was going to answer to Jerry. Sorry to Jay. >> To Jay. >> Jay. >> Just Just maybe it'll it'll it'll respond to what you might be responding to. >> Uh part one. I I want to clarify I there's nothing about January that's ending phase one. It's ending. So phase
one is started. So if I said phase one again, I meant phase one of phase one. We're literally just trying to get the TC members questions answered and every TC member has said they're thrilled to have
followup. This is our part one of this. We wanted to get some questions answered so we know how to go to the next uh set of people. They've all said, "We'd love to have you come back to us with more questions." So now we have one set of
questions because we knew we couldn't get the public's questions between last week and this week. We haven't get gotten our FAQs together. We will. We're dying to get like I would love to get your you know like your knowledge Jay is really awesome and I keep telling like
you know Mr. Hilner and uh Mr. Cosg Gro like you guys have been studying this actually longer than we have or certainly that Chris and I have. So I would love to get more comment. However, I'm not sure what the rules are about having you know members of the public. I
was like we met with um with the folks who didn't move ahead in this uh voting situation to get more questions from them. We want to continue to have that. So, if even if it's a twoperson meeting,
maybe it's not right now. Yes, it'd be great to have a dialogue, but maybe it's not as productive, but maybe two of us could sit down and say, "Hey, let's get your questions. You're the one who's showing up." People who are showing up, we want your questions. Anyone else, you have to go online, but I mean, we'll meet with you. Chris and I are
available. I think most of us on this commission study charter are semvailable personally in person, but Chris and I for sure and Jerry is local. So questions are are welcomed. We want to add and every single person we've
already met with knows that there's a part two >> and I'm also really excited Chris tell them about like once the government gets studied from the other you know towns we would like to go back to some of these people to say part two of questions. So the question period is not really done.
Just the initial study for us to learn. >> And Jay, just to put your mind at ease, no TC member will pressure Chris Ducker. Trust me. Trust me. You know, and from
what I understand, and uh Jerry you can uh elaborate on this. Supposedly TC members cannot call the police uh the the uh chief of police chief >> not not in person. They cannot do that.
>> Of course they're not supposed to. And that that's that's the >> but that's the whole point of the questions, right? They're trying to find out. The purpose of phase one is to try to find out if the existing government
is is acting in the way it's supposed to according to the charter, the township charter. >> And the township charter lays out different roles and responsibilities. There are certain things that are allowed to happen. There are certain
things that are not allowed to happen. And the point of the questioning is to find out if the government it as it stands today is operating within those bounds and if not whether a change of government could
potentially help solve some of those problems. >> Jay, one thing I wanted to to address is whether we would we would disclose if we found out if if one of those um norms or or regulations is violated. I'd have to say is I don't think we're acting as a
watchdog. Meaning I don't think that's our our purview to do. However, I do think it would inform our decision and our recommendation about what to do going forward. >> Right. So that and that's the point, Corey. Exactly. If as you're doing these
interviews, you find out that the government as it stands today is not operating the way it should, then there's a couple popular paths, right? you could recommend changes within the current form that would resolve some of those problems. The other alternative is
to say no, we need a different form. We need a strong mayor where the mayor runs the entire executive function and the TC members do not speak without the without the presence of either the mayor or the
business manager uh with uh various employees of of the government. So that's one of the things that in this phase um is common to try to find out again is is the government operating in
the manner that it should >> and that's why you know I think if you going back to the initial question which was do you plan to publish or interview questions once the public gets a chance to see it
once me and the short hills association uh gets to see that we can appine and give you suggestions, but without knowing how you're approaching it, it's difficult for us as members of the public to give you meaningful input, if
that makes sense. >> We are we are um we have uh pointed questions to each in individual. Um, I don't think, and I'll refer to my
commission here, uh, I don't think we should publish the questions. If the general public has questions they want to ask these people, I feel that the general public should write down those
questions and give them to us. I don't think that we should publish our our uh questions nor nor their uh statements till to our till our final um
uh till do we have our final report. >> Yeah, Chris, I I tend to agree about the answers. meaning you know we might consider and I'm not going to make a commitment but we might consider as an appendix to our report giving a sort of
confidential summary of the answers not individual answers or even if we give individual answers by by example we would never >> Cy Corey I I told everyone and Joanna can attest to this we will not provide
individual names or >> Oh, yeah. Never. I agree. [clears throat] >> But it's very easy to >> I don't I don't want to go that way. >> I guess that's true. Joanna, >> hang on. Hang on. We're get We're going off track. I never I I specifically use
the word summary and anonymize. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I never suggest anonymous in a small town. I think if you I think we can look at how we can sort of aggregate the answers to give sort of the nature of the responses versus actual specific
responses. >> Yeah, exactly. Like for example, >> summary of responses, but how do we deal with the ans part? >> I don't know. I don't see what what what difficulty what how do you think posting
the questions for the public to see would do harm to the process of evaluating the current form of government. >> So I I think that certainly the questions will be published in the report either the body
or an appendix. I'm not convinced that publishing the questions in advance in order to have the public go through a refine these questions process is going to be super helpful mainly because
when you're sitting in front of someone and they have the questions in advance because if we make the questions public they will have the question >> public it's for the interview let me clarify that sorry to cut you off >> Jay it's to keep the interviewees >> uh honest and and forthcoming So if if
and I don't know what's allowed in terms of like if we gather your questions now and you and I have a conversation or coffee shop to say hey what do you think about what would you like us to ask and I'd be happy to meet like any day be like hey Jay what would you ask that
would be awesome even if it's me ask >> yeah so two points number one it's important that you get Michael Collins on board quickly so that you can ask these questions to him on what is allowed and what isn't allowed. Um, I am
somewhat familiar with the Open Public's Meeting Act and and but I am by no means a person who would ever tell you anything about what's allowed or not allowed based on my limited knowledge. Um but the other point is um you as a as
a commission you do want to be I would think um as open with the public as you can be um in order to give yourselves the most degree of uh public trust that
you're doing your job. Um, I, you know, in terms of giving, uh, I would think you'd want to give people questions in advance so they had a time to prepare and give you a meaningful response. Um, potentially go back and check facts
before they answered your question so that they answered it correctly. Um, and yeah, and going back to to Corey's point, I could not agree with Corey more. Um, I would think that you'd want to publish some sort of um, summary of
here are the types of things we heard from speaking with various employees. Not the specific actions, but we heard that some of this type of behavior went on and we don't think that's good or this seems to be working very well based on responses. Da da da da. Um, and and
you want to do that, I would think, before you write your final report so that again, the public has a chance to see if what you're recommending matches the information that you've gathered in
reaching that decision, not after the fact. um after the fact you've published a report and somebody's going to say, "Well, you asked this and this and this, but you didn't ask this. How does that jive with the conclusion or reach?" So,
just my two cents, you guys are the elected body. Just passing along my thoughts. >> Response to that in two ways. One, I'm not sure I've made up my mind on whether it's appropriate to at least have an outline of questions that we're using as
a guide to be made public. I think I need to think a little more about that. Um, there is some merit to people having questions in advance. There's also a lot of merit in keeping these conversations uh as flowing as possible in terms of learning more information. There's a
right balance between structure and and uh gathering people's thoughts as as they think about a form of government. So that's one. So I think we as commissioners probably need to talk more about whether there should be a public list of questions. We definitely want to hear from the public what questions they
would like us to ask. That's that's different from having a public list of questions. Um on your point about I just want to manage expectations here. We are here to address systemic issues, right? We're not here to see
um if somebody is violating a norm or I mean what that means because any form of government the government is only as good as the people that are a part of it and people are going to find ways who want to will find ways not to adhere to norms, you know, and we can't we can't
that's not our mandate. Our mandate is if there is something that is systemically incentivizing people to not adear to norms here, we here to fix that if possible, right? But we're not here to you know if somebody may not behave
appropriately even under a different form of government if we reach that conclusion and there's no solution to that here at this commission. Right? So I just want to manage that expectation. to address systemic issues. >> Yeah, but they agreed 100%. But also you
may find that there are systemic issues by asking those kinds of questions. >> Yeah, but possible. >> Um >> that's all I had. Chris, >> does anyone else have have any comments? >> I see a hand raised by the public.
>> So, thank you for uh the opportunity to speak and uh have a good evening. >> Great. >> You too. Thank you, Jay. >> Jerry, does anyone else? >> Uh, Mr. Feld, one second. [clears throat] Hello. Do you hear me?
>> Yep. >> Hey Jeff, how are you? >> First of all, everyone, happy holidays for the next few weeks. Um, since the last meeting, I just want to make sure because you're asking for questions from the public whether your website has
contact information to get that questions to you because uh after the last meeting it hadn't been placed up uh on the website. Um, the other thing is I was asking about because you're interviewing department heads. Is there does the township have an
organization chart? Because I've been looking for one for the last 5 years because that might help some of your framing your questions like who reports to whom, especially when you get into the planning and and permit areas and that side. Um, I
>> everyone reports to the business administrator. No, sometimes there's like I should be because this goes back to phase two that we have an option now that I mean I hear you doing phase one interviews but phase two like the
comparative of other municipalities you might have an opportunity with the Christmas holidays with kids coming home from college that they might want to do the let's say the due diligence work where they go look at other like the net the surrounding towns and look at their
administrative code and do that leg work for you now that you have an opportunity so they could enhance their resumes and get a little bit of civic duties. Like I'm just suggesting like say Rarin came in the news today that the mayor Raritin
resigned and maybe we should look at Raritin because they have an elected mayor. They have seven council members and we should see whether of those seven are they all at large are they all you know are some at ward and some are at
large also when they look at the administrative code how do they structure the departments because I think the way we're going to find out when you do your interviews some we don't if you said you only had four department heads um there's certain areas that we didn't have and I just
raised that in the concern it'll say there's no removal some of the comments that were on public media about snow removal, like who like who's responsible for in the DPW when you know there's going to be like a 7 in snowstorm over the um
a holiday weekend who sleeps [snorts] in comes in and gets the cot out and sleeps through it cuz there's been I've been hearing allegations that certain people don't live in the state. they go away. And the question like when we have emergencies,
this is part of maybe your research as to, you know, who's in charge of certain things that happen because when we had the flood in 20121, there was always fingerpointing about who was in charge of uh the emergency and they changed the structure that
there was someone in the fire department where before there wasn't. And I'm just throwing these things out, but going back to phase two, I think we have an opportunity next say three or four weeks when we have college students home, they can do, you know, the heavy lifting, dirty due diligence for us and it helps
them rather than waiting till you finish phase one to start that that phase. And again, happy holidays and I appreciate what you're doing. Thank you. >> Well, actually, Jeff, um Joanna, you want to elaborate on on Tim Hoffman, please?
Yeah. Well, you can talk about Tim Hoffman. I'm only talking about scheduling. After this Wednesday, >> every municipality is telling their workers to take their time off. There's going to be very little that our our college students
that are coming home to do research to actually do, but we'll certainly happy to try to use resources, but there's also people going away here, right? >> No, I'm just saying if you give your college students, they don't have to talk to anyone in town hall. It's just getting on the internet and do
comparisons of the administrative codes of other municipalities. That has nothing to do with talking to someone where they have to interview. This is public documentation. You go to you look at pull up an audit of a municipality. It'll tell you the form of government and you look at their administrative
code because usually it's article two. >> Oh, you're saying do phase two now instead of >> mean you do portion portion of phase two. Let's say you compare Summit. You just let's look at this as a donut like the eight municipalities that surround
us like Summit, um, Maplewood, West Orange, where we share our borders, Floren Park, um, Chadam, and just say, look at them right now. And it doesn't require them calling anyone. It just goes to the computer, uh, the internet, look at the administrative code. Are
they under the Faulner Act? Yes or no? >> Are they a burrow? So we we have a bunch of that done already internally. >> Well, again, I'm not privy to that, but I'm just suggesting because it's a good way for civic participation for high school students to want to go into
public policy or college students to do that due diligence and it doesn't require them. >> Yeah. Yeah. We'd love to tap into the high schoolers, the political like science group and stuff. Yeah. Anyone, this is part of our outreach. I hope that we can get teens involved as well, but you know, they're all busy right
now. So, they want to participate. Yes, we would love to get them all involved. I mean, honestly, Jeff, if you can get kids involved, too. We We'd love names. >> Well, I do give my questions, but I think Jerry knows uh if you can just get
the the link um to like you ask him for questions where it was because after your first meeting, you did not have it. Now, are you going to meet on the 30th or you going to be off that week because of the holidays? I think your next meeting is scheduled for the 30th. >> We should have a quorum on the 30th.
>> Yes. >> All right. Well, I'll wish you happy because I'll be in Seattle with my unicorn princess. All right. >> Oh, good for you. [laughter] >> Again, happy holidays. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> Thank you. >> Let me Jeff.
Is there anyone else? >> Um, check. >> No hands up. >> I don't No hands. >> No hands. Okay. I now close the public comment period. Are there any comments from the commission regarding any comments made
by the public? Um, I would just like to say we will take Jay and Jeff's uh comments under advisement. Not saying that we're going to uh go forward with them, but um
we appreciate their their comments. And uh I also would like to say that uh uh you and I and Joanna we we um we spent hours
making questions pointed questions and to Jay and Jeff's uh concerns uh what they have suggested we have questions for various people various departments that they will
elaborate on. Um I do not believe that we should have uh that we should post the questions because what happens if we want to go to uh department head XYZ and he or she has the questions in hand
before they could go to various people in their department. they could formulate a a opinion, an answer for us. So, I would rather have them answer the question right then and there. And as
Janu Joanna will attest to, they take their time and they give us very very sound uh sound advice and sound answers, I should say, to the questions. So, Chris, I I I I've heard that and I and
and I think that's great. I appreciate it. Um I I'm going to respond a little to what Jeff suggested with having a college student sort of do a survey of towns and what form of government they have and things like that. Um, I just as
everyone was talking went on chat GPT and asked it to prepare a document of all New Jersey of the types of municipalities in New Jersey with approximately 20,000 residents and a downtown and it came up
with a pretty good document. It says the form of government, the government body. Oh, and I asked them to to note whether it's partisan elections or nonpartisan elections. It notes that as well. We have towns like well Milbour shows up, Morristown, Rosel, Summit, Scotch Plains
and then it's a pretty good start. So you know we we we have already started and we can use resources like chat GPT to pretty quickly put together such a document. >> Great. >> But I think putting it on I mean to both Jay and Jeff's points I don't want it to
go unnoticed. Yes. What I said last time is I'd like this FAQ situation to happen. We we're working on it and we do want the public to give their questions and by no means are we going to ignore questions that come in now even though
we've interviewed people because everyone has given us permission and is willing to go back and and and reconnect. Yeah. No, I think that's what we were talking about before about reaching out to people, getting more contact information, updating our website to to Jeff's point, making sure
that website has a contact that there >> and doing inerson reach out at the train stations, maybe at the Mill Diner, whatever it is. >> Um, and then just collecting as much information as possible because we're >> we want to have the the most comprehensive informed um report.
>> Yeah, >> I'm I'm very much in agreement with everything that's been said. I I think there is value in the interviewees not having the questions in advance just because you get their candid opinion before they go and you know think about what they think you want to hear you
know the response should be um >> versus canned candly we don't want canned >> I love canned when I get interviewed for something like in an article or when I was interviewed on TV or or like anything else canned was like oh I can
come up with a story and an edit when it was in like honest it was honest. >> Yeah. Um and once we do get everything up and running collecting questions from the public we will definitely take what we have currently compiled in terms of questions look at if there's anything
new or anything we're missing and we'll certainly go back and reask those questions of the folks that we've already spoken to. Um, as Joanna and Chris have said, everyone's been, you know, very generous with their time and I see no reason why they wouldn't want to give us more information. >> Yeah.
>> Yes. Perfect. Anyone else? >> All right. >> May I have a motion to adjourn the meeting? >> So move. [laughter] >> Second. All in favor? >> I in favor second everything.
>> Right. Joanna, have a good party and I'll talk to everyone. I'll talk to everyone at a later date. >> Thank you. Thank you everybody. >> Bye.