oh that's probably I'd like to call this meeting to order thank you for your patience and waiting for us um I will now uh read the open public meeting
statement in accordance with Section Five of the open meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 be advised that notice of this meeting was made by posting on the bulle board town hall and serving the officially designated
newspapers a notice stating that this meeting would take place in town hall at 7:30 pm on April 3rd 2025 would you Alison Canfield here Elizabeth Wonga here Brad
Jenkins Justin s Jessica glat FR Chada here Christine best Gary Rosen here David Co here thank you um if you could just
please make note Gary Rosen is in place of Jessica glass thank you so first order of business is uh the adoption of the resolution for our new attorney Katherine uh cop we want to
welcome her so we're I'd like to make a motion to appoint Katherine cop as historic preservation board attorney do I have a second second R please sorry I'm
SW yeah that was my question too should I get SW in are you not had you guys oh you're right we forgot Gary you have to be SW yeah sorry about that worries we don't have the paperwork though so is that
what do you think I I think yeah I mean I think um that's kind of up to your attorney but I think it would I can see if I can find the paperwork awesome okay here we go okay um you want to do this
individually or at the same time or well you have to accept so we're GNA we have a second so now we're going to take roll for you to Al Canfield yes Elizabeth w v CH yes Gary Rosen I don't vote
on okay perfect okay um so do we you want to do this individually or the same time yeah how do you swear yourself in though you don't have to be no you don't
she doesn't no I don't need to be no they just they do I do first meeting since of the Year for me it doesn't matter you've already been swor so it's just you so then you're going to repeat after me um so I state your name I Gary Rosen
do solemnly swear or affirm do solemnly swear that I that I will support the Constitution of the United States that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the constitution of the state of New Jersey the constitution of the state of New Jersey and that I will Faithfully discharge the duties of
that I will Faithfully discharge the duties of commissioner of the his the historic preservation Commission of melbour Township according to the best of my ability according to the best of my ability let me explain this um David Rosen is the vaon for zoning um Jessica
was prior to this and he was not um at the beginning of the year so he was not put in until what this last month correct so we welcome you back thank you um and thank you and thank you Katherine
welcome aboard thank you yes and for those who haven't met uh Dave Cosgrove I mentioned him in our February meeting that he is the TC liaison to the HBC so we want to welcome him on board so thank
you Dave for uh volunteering I hope you weren't shoved in perfect so far so great our next order of business uh resolution um adopting uh revised 2025 meeting schedules so it was brought to my
attention that the HPC meeting was scheduled for October 2nd which we all know is a holiday um this meeting will be rescheduled for October 9th so please mark your calendar do we
have any questions from the Commissioners hearing none do I hear a motion uh to adopt the revised 2025 meeting schedule so moved thank you second
second thank you rooll please Alison Canfield yes Elizabeth w CH Gary Rosen yes perfect so we move on to meeting minutes the minutes of February 6 2025
meeting have been distributed to the Commissioners are there any additions or Corrections from anyone okay hearing none uh do I hear a motion to approve
second thank you I wasn't there no you can't if you weren't there so we need Brad can I second as chair I think I can don't people to vote no he'll be
here though okay why don't we move on to the next one and then okay we'll come back to that okay I think memorializations I think we're safe with um um from February 6th
application number 577 1222 Cy Street um we have application number 5941 morine place and application number 596 for uh 441 Wyoming Avenue do I hear
a motion to approve the memorializations as listed that we can't second it yeah okay we're back I thought we were save that okay um for old
Business Council um so we you want to do yeah okay so application 588 for 17 Highland Avenue blck 211 lot 177 it's a non-contributing property in
the Short Hill Park historic district property owned by youngmen Pon and Wen key as the applicants um is being carried to May 1st without further notice thank
you we don't need to vote on that or no no just being carried without further notice thank you um so first up is uh application number 60 4 375 Milburn Avenue block 1212 Lot Number Four it's
the Milburn Town Hall this very building that we're in for Capital Improvements uh Milbourne Township is the applicant um I want to remind every the Commissioners that this is this application before historic preservation commission is a
courtesy uh for questions comments recommendations to the application that we will forward then to the planning board um if we could have the presenter or architect come
forward and we don't mind swearing them in okay you can state your name for the AR please Florence is my legal name Laura burwind okay and do you swear or affirm that the testimony you will be giving tonight will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes okay
please proceed I'm Laura burn from the the Goldstein partnership Architects I had with me Eli Goldstein um and we've been working with the building committee ma Alex and others actually to um come up with a addition and renovation to this
building um I think you all receive these packets um I this building I actually want to take you to the third page of the packet first this building has quite a history of uh adapting itself and being used in
different ways on this page you'll see that um there are five additions the original build was the firehouse up front in pink and then in green there
were two additions one on the east and one on the west not exactly at the same time I'm not exactly sure which one went first and second but part of that was the police occupying it and part of it was offices occupying it and then then in Orange in the center was an infill
that happened in between when um the firing range was also built underneath it underground um so this building has a history of changing itself and being altered in order to um accommodate the municipality
and its needs and we just want to take a cue from that as we move forward into this new renovation so if you look on the first page is the plan hands and you'll see the dotted Red Line shows the break between what is existing and what
is new um so it is a substantial addition but much like other substantial additions that have happened to the building previously um I have the second sheet elevations but I think what is more helpful is the
3D views that we provided so if you flip to the fourth page you've got the view from Milburn Avenue um so that very much stays what it's going to be what it is right now um the only thing that we have planned
there is you now have a smattering of all kinds of Windows mostly vinyl Replacements um we are going to go back to um a wood window but aluminum clad so that it is more durable from the outside and it'll get you more of that historic
detail that used to be there originally um uh we actually are going keep the both the double front doors um we have sort of manipulated our egress plans so that we're actually not going to use them even though there's a stair in one corner as egress do so even though
they're five foot wide two foot six and two foot six leaves which is too narrow by today's codes uh we figured out a way to keep it intact so the Milburn Avenue side will look very much like it does now the next page is a view from the
parking lot East Side um most of what you see on the east side now and the entrance that you come into now was actually an addition right it wasn't an original part of the building um so we have decided to continue that
side in the same manner sort of quiet um it ends up tucking behind other houses in that area as well um so you never actually because of how this building is situated see that view you have the elevation sheet but I thought that this view was more valuable so you understand
you're only seeing a fragment of the building at a time and then the last page is the northern and western views where the addition is substantial addition of the meeting room this room and also we're making it so that it can
work as a courtroom as well um is different and new um and we've separated that from the uh older part of the building we've got a glass facade for the lobby entrances so that um there's a delineation but
we're keeping it in the same brick the same language just a more contemporary use of material some of the challenges we have and I know you're in this building but sometimes you don't look at the building you're in very carefully so I'm going to
give you some pictures of the exist so you'll see at the top of the um sheet uh a picture of your slate that you guys really can't see from the street I was actually standing on the flat roofs taking a picture at the
um where the first edition the original building meets the first edition and you can see on the right how there was a slate repair and the differences in the colors of the slates and the texture of the Slate you have a very unusual slate on your roof it's a modeled purple heavy
gauge slate um very expensive very hard to match and um about a 10-month lead time to even get it so we are going to continue with a slate roof on the parking lot view side on the Eastern
View side um but we put some dormers on the roof in that area in order to be able to transition to a different slate um kind of Mark the difference from the old to the new and not have it but directly one to the other it'll be
they'll come at each other at a 90 degree angle so you'll always have that copper um uh Valley in between breaking up the two um can I just ask when that was put in that's like I don't know when that repair was made I don't
know um and then the other two pictures I have are kind of highlight your additions right your your the East Edition at the parking lot actually met the corus of the old
building and the slope of the old building but the additions on the west side the infill Edition changed the level of a cornice twice right they've got a lot of mismatched and also odd windows that happened you can see that in the middle picture of the middle
Edition so are we're trying to kind of unify this again by having that cornice at the same level and on our new piece even though it's not a cornice in the addition if you look at the last page of
your packet um we are keeping a band around the building even the new building at the same level although it's not a cornice and not treated in the same way so our goal really was to sort of keep in the theme of the building let the new part of the building be new but
make it unified in its um materiality and it's the cornice lines and the the tie it together so that it's um a a single it ends up as one piece as opposed to what we have now which is a
little bit of a hodge podge around the back are you done unless you have any questions for me sure we will um so we'll start with questions and comments you can start anywhere okay um
so I have some questions I guess can you let us know just over what functions are being added to the building like what's the driver for this addition so the functions will all be Municipal functions um the meeting room
is going to be moved to the first floor right and made more accessible um because as you know when you come in here it's a little bit convoluted to get back into here um H the um we're also so part of the complication of this building has nothing to do with the
building or historic preservation but the fact that you're in a flood plane and you have a basement and a historic building because it was put there before flood planes were determined we are pulling everything out of the basement
and not reoccupying the basement um so right now your basement serves as archives um you'll see on the second floor plan there's a big archive space that comes up and out um we're still um uh negotiating with the D and FEMA in
order to figure out exactly they want to the basement might need to be turned into a crawl space entirely but that that Still Remains to be seen But it cannot be occupied any longer so you're not adding anying like what's in this building fun well this meeting room is
going to be significantly different and larger right and the the um space like I said that's being used in the basement comes up above on the second floor oh yes and because the courtroom can also be used as a Court violations which
is currently in the police building mes over here um and it looks I mean I I'll just the office spaces are very generous um from what I'm seeing currently in the workplace so I just want to understand what the utilization rate was like so
for the number of people working in the office spaces what is the square foot per person that I would need to figure out to tell you I don't know okay so how did you figure out I guess the sizes for this build um well we this is we do
municipal buildings this is very typical in terms of what we do the bulk of the space of the addition is the meeting room itself um and the demands it takes for that the other thing is that takes up more space is this new building will
be completely accessible um so our bathroom spaces and our toilet compartment spaces and our hallways are also more generous but that is required in any new Way Forward um what is the circulation
rate ratio of I'm just I'll be honest I looked at the plans that you had before and it seems like all the offices have become more generous than what was currently in the building and that's not the way that
the industry is going and so I was very I think the biggest thing that flagged was an office that was almost 400 square feet which office is 400 square feet administrator's office look like heads of companies at this point so I I I found a lot of the office
spaces to be quite large given current workplace standards and I just I guess my concern is the reason I started looking at that if I looked at the building I said this building is substantially larger and very imposing in this area and I was trying to figure
out what the drivers were for it and so that's why ask those questions as to what is driving it like what are we adding functions to it are we making spaces bigger are we you know making circulation larger you know are there things that we could
do that's not could reduce the size of this building I guess is my is what my driving questions are so I guess I'm surprised we don't know what the utilization rate of this building is because that is very standard to know
when building in building um I I I guess I can't even imagine why that wouldn't have been looked at in a stacking plan you can square me in if you like Eli gin sorry my voice I'm getting over a cold sure um do you swear affirm the
testimony will be giving tonight will be the truth whole truth and nothing about the truth I doce so um as a municipal building we have to deal with a whole bunch of issues that wouldn't apply in a conventional office building in this case for
example once the court comes over here we have to provide a security screening area in the lobby to deal with the requirements of the administrative office of the courts yeah now I F and and that's subst amount of space to
allow people to queue to be to have their bags checked before they go in to go through magnetometers before they go into the courtroom the occupant load of this building believe it or not is about 350 people because of
the the fact that there can be multiple functions going on simultaneously including use of the Court use of the multiple conference rooms and so on so uh we don't actually calculate it by utilization because it's meaningless given these the
combination of uses that are going on here we can certainly calculate the average office size if you like and we can get you that information after the meeting but U there are numerous public interactions transaction areas for example for the
building engineering department that skews everything because of the intensity with which they're yeah but those are operation spaces versus ad spes so I guess I would I'm I'm asking to be honest I'm asking mostly about the
administrative spaces operation spaces are you know a form of function right that you have to have those certain size we can certainly get you that information seem to me to be very large and they're actually bigger than what we have currently in the building so that's
surprising to me um and so I was trying to figure out really what the driving factors are because you know just if I look at just overall I think this is a massive addition to this downtown area and I wanted to see what are the
things that we is there any way to make it smaller like is there any way to make it so that it's not so imposing and I really would ask you to really look at the administrative spaces and if those are necessary and if some of the
circulation is really necessary there's a lot of space around things in here and I mean to me some of these offer sizes are so much larger than what you're seeing in the industry right now um and
so I think that's concerning to me um and I think if we look at that I think you can really strength the square footage of this building that's coming in I mean I think actually the law spaces are the most reasonable those actually looked a little small um but I
think the administrative is are shocking um we can certainly get this so I I think for me I would love to see this addition get a lot smaller and really hone in on what spaces I really needed and even the same with the archives I me
are those all those archives are absolutely needed to create a building a space so large for archives you know there's no way to digitize those um there are certain records the state requires remain in hard copy forever I
understand but this is quite a large space don't well you understand we're we're giving up the entire basement which if you were to go down there you would see files everywhere so uh we can certainly get that information for but we don't have it tonight yeah I mean I
think that that is really my biggest issue with this is just the size of it I mean it's just scale-wise it's dwarfing this building um and it's kind of dwarfing the area you know it's dwarfing the parking lot's dwarfing the buildings
around it and I would really like to see if there's any way to control the size of it um so that that honestly is my biggest concern it's really maybe getting the size something more reasonable and then you know I'll let
other people comment on the architecture of it um and give the floor to other people for questions but to me I think if we some of those numbers on your circulation and utilization rate and look at industry and you know give us some industry perspective on that I think it would be
helpful thank you Elizabeth um any other comments from Commissioners I could um like to say looking at the other additions that has come before this new addition it
looks totally different um looking from the you know the design and elevations and everything is that a reason for that the courtroom addition the new edition and the in the back yes New
Edition looks totally different well we're using what the you know the the Secretary of interior standards you know wants you to differentiate you know how people view that often breaks down in
different ways we decided to use the same language the brick and the patterning of the brick and carry it through but make it look like it is new part of the building because it is I I have a question somewhat related to that if you look at the East side of
this building um and and even the West Side uh one of the things and you brought up the interior secretary avoid designs that unify the two volumes into a single architectural design
um do you feel that that's kind of happening and certainly on especially on the east side it looks like just one building um and I think maybe that's what your clarification there so can you
help us with that I guess maybe back up and tell us how I look at this as a rehabilitation project for the historic building so I have to look at some of the historic elements and it would be fair for you to maybe explain to all of
us like your your thinking of so that Eastside Edition the historic Eastside Edition right which is the entrance that everybody walks through from the parking lot basically right that's not original to the building if you look at that and take a cue from that it is actually
until you look at it very closely ly very similar to the existing building right and the way you kind of see where it's different right is in the roof line right you there's a copper um Valley hip Valley um injunction right that kind of
gives you the line that you can then see and then if you look at it closely you see that the brick is a little bit different the openings are a little bit different so we kind of continued that way on that East same east side right and we set up the Dormers again as a Breaking Point right something very
clear that takes you uh from this is where this addition ended and this addition now begins um and it will have the same effect you know your brick and your windows and your everything that you bring to it now even if we tried to
match it exactly would never match exactly right you're going to see the differences between one and the other but we kept the Eide quiet because that's what the previous Edition had done done right well don't you question on the other side
windows well that's courtroom where we have so you see those brick um verticals the kees yes in in between is glass block the problem with putting Windows there is because if it's going to be used as a courtroom it can't have
Windows into it all visuals need to be obscured from the outside but it doesn't mean you can't have light come in it just that can't be so you and there is so if you look at the if you look at the um those
elevations every time there's a break in those um brick panels there's glass block in between so there will be plenty of natural light in the space it's just that you can't see through it
um it'll be the textured block so that you get light without a visual right so and that's you know um New Jersey courts rules so what's the width on those I'll call them windows not sure they are but
the glass block or yeah the yeah the the the part that lets the light in lar PS brick of brick you have um eight inches between it uh that goes from floor to ceiling between in between every um
panel that that that's in a l light I have no idea it seems small okay so if I can go back just some clarification on the rehabilitation
let's just say for the lack a better right because it's not designated historic but it is truly historic and it is on the element of the master plan if you look at the historic pictures the reason that the facades on both sides of this building is because there were
buildings next to them so it was never about you know because there was a building very close to it um so of course there wasn't going to be as significant let's just say as the
as the front of this building um so the question is I'm I'm sure you probably knew that already but now you have a building because of its size and scale the mass of it now you have a for ited view from all directions and my question
is um it seems I don't know I I don't even know and I'm not an architect so forgive me so I'm using I'm doing the best I I can but actually from the East side it's not a never a foresighted view right because you actually have these homes those row
of homes that face what is it essic right that are still going to be there like the the east elev is never seen as an entire elevation you don't even see the current East Elevation as an entire elevation you kind of get it clipped and now that it continues you're it's going
to disappear be behind the home completely but you agree though because of the parking lot there is a huge space where if you're driving down Milburn Avenue or maybe not from Essex that view but you will see of course the back of
the building and driving up Milburn you would see the whole east side right or west side of the building West Side yes West side um so again is I just want to understand
so what you said is you're just following what the addition was on that particular building but and Bart you may have to jump in here for me but historically it's really about the original building not necessarily the
additions that followed is that true or not true sorry maybe you can rephrase what you mean okay so the additions that were added to the original historic building um are we not supposed to
actually concentrate more on the actual original building because the additions were added also when there were homes there was a house very close to that building or another building so of course there wouldn't have been a lot of um
architectural design for those additions am I correct or on this building that's true I mean the roofs do something different um you know instead of having Stone lentils and Jack arches they have
brick um you know things like that so you could tell you can even tell by the different brick patterns and bondings that they don't match up that those are additions so but it's a lot of brick you know in this building
obviously okay um also I I I just want to clarify you know it looks like the original building and I appreciate you know the doors that are going to be functioning and all that but did you ever take in consideration um the
original doors that were there uh for the fire station or making those into Windows to make those open them up again so they again it feels like that was frozen in time that particular building
which you know good historic preservation really doesn't freeze it you know what I mean it updates it it makes it you know what the use of it today so was that even considered Windows well your three
arches in front right were the historic doors Firehouse Doors um right and those areas were closed up and put Windows in correct to be when this became a a municipal building as opposed to a
essential public facilities because it was police and fire at one point because police was the addition um to I mean so we're not we're not going back back to a firehouse right we're we're we're still being used as a municipal function right so we're
putting new windows in there right but they're still going to be Windows because there's office spaces in those spaces correct I'm I'm saying definitely the windows but opening them up the windows to further down to represent the
door that was there would that not give it more of an architectual you know appreciating what was there the his the history of this building and then somehow you know maybe again I'm Barton you're going to
have to help me out with this but they should be compatible and and in design and with a historic building so you know I pulled up just some um things and again I'm not an architect but how
they've rehabbed buildings or how they've added additional to work with a historic building I'm sure you guys obviously have done some additions on historic or Renovations on historic buildings also
additions to those historic buildings too um so I'm a little concerned that we've just got something very Stark with a bunch of Windows and not really adding any of the elements from the actual
historic building and incorporating them into you know the bigger span of the building do you know what I mean on both sides so I'm not sure I understand yeah
well I mean I think there's not a lot of play in right there's not you know it's one flat long facade kind of and even even the addition on the other side although it's not quite as long it's just reading so monolithic the
the proposed design you know this the the addition on the the parking lot side is very monolithic there's not anything that breaks up the design that even other than at the roof level putting in the Dormers which also seem slightly small um there's not a
good differentiation it just seems very monolithic and then I think again with the courtroom addition it's very monolithic there's not but let's take a look at the last sheet right it's not the on your packet the
um if you look at the top view you can see that it's actually there's a a big break in a courtyard between the existing and the new right there it's actually not a big monolith there's a an inset in the building and you can see
that in the plan as well um that uh I think I just mean the building itself there's not a lot of it just seems like a you know like it's very heavy um and I think that's kind of going back to my
original comment I think that the scale of this you know again I don't know what is the height of the courtroom the courtroom is uh 20 it's the the B the band at the top of the courtroom is 26 feet right which is the same as the band
the Cornus at the top of your building the interior is lower because I've got ducks and pipes and what have you there yeah uh but 22 feet I just don't know if there's any way to I think to me it just there's
nothing breaking up you know again there's not you know if you look at this there's not a lot of definition it's just you know a long building and then the same with the other side there's no definition there's no sort of anything to kind of bring it
back to the scale of the neighborhood right like sometimes even if you have a larger building in a historic area you kind of break it into chunks to bring the scale back to the surrounding right you can you can play with these to you know have something that you know even
if it was you know something slightly that wasn't all one dimension it would go better with the scale you know I I've seen buildings before where you know they R into small tunks and you know even some of the even some of the
buildings that I found around here that are residential right they kind of break it up so that it goes with the scale of the neighborhood we're not you know this I think the scale of it is very imposing and you know sometimes you do that with a court house to make it look imposing
but I feel like in this downtown that doesn't seem appropriate you know the the scale of it is was to to work with the scale of this existing building um so you what you're saying is you'd like to see it smaller than this building well I mean I I do
think I would like to see the whole building smaller because I do think that there are spaces that could be thought out you know I mean as I said almost 400 square foot office space for the administrator I haven't seen offices
like that in the workplace in maybe 25 years I mean that is some of these offices are over 200 square feet for you know administrative offices I think a lot of administrative offices are going to to 150 square fet so I do think that
there is a substantial amount of space being used in this building that's maybe not necessary um you know and so if that could help with shrinking the scale of this overall addition I think that would be very helpful and I think fiscally responsible as well so I think it would
be you know speaking as a somebody that lives in the town but also as a historic preservation is I think we could really get this building to be quite a bit smaller but I think also being a president of this town I think we should have a building that we're not making
substantial offices in so I think from both standpoints I would ask that you look at this design because I I think you know looking at it the more I looked at the more I was like just you know you know I I mean you guys are building
other Municipal places universities are I can tell you definitely universities are not building any buildings with administrative offices is the size right there there's a lot of places that are not building spaces like this a lot of towns are coming up a lot of counties
are coming up with workpl transformation initiatives to make all these spaces quite a bit smaller than what I'm seeing in these room and I do think that would help the historic preservation as well if we could shrink this entire position and make this something that could
really been into the town and you know you can do great design and people can have a smaller spaces without it you know and still have the functionality that they need in the so I I I really would love to see this whole design Shunk by
substantially um I'd like to also sorry to interrupt J but I'd like to mention you know we don't really know at what point this what phase this is in right so um I guess the question is we I think all of us are aware we're
sitting in this building that we need a new renovation we need need a new building correct um so that part we know right and size we don't know where you are in this process um
so I I agree with Elizabeth but I'd also see if there's any room to relook at the facade of this and and maybe at that point try to figure out how to incorporate it better with the
historic piece of this um so because we don't know where you are in this phase and we first of all we appreciate you being here we appreciate you standing in front of us and please understand this building is really important to us and
I'm sure at some point Barton shared the history you know of this building with you um and so it is important to preserve it but also not overpower it um
and even with the size it is what at what point can we maybe add more architectural design if we're past the point of reorganizing this piece what about the facade of this piece so
it's more appealing more attractive it it it really uh activates civil Pride right uh right now it just looks like a massive huge building and I I agree um and even making it one you
know certainly one side of this breaking it up slightly and then turning around and not having being able to add windows to the actual port side is there another did you guys play around with another
design idea because I think we've excluded we've separated the historic elements and we've created something else you know what I mean instead of incorporate some of those well one of
the things that we have been working on is taking sort of the language because like you said you can't put Windows in the brick uh panels of the courtroom but taking the uh courses of head headlock headlock
courses or and trying to figure out if we can do something in those brick panels that relates to the historic p uh patterning of the brick on the old building but somehow brings it into the new and then breaks that up I you know I think anything it's it
to break it up again I'm going to tell you under oath here that I am not an architect but when I looked through you know various pieces and forgive my uh not so professional I'd like I'd like to
share with you some of the things that were pulled up you know from old um you know buildings that were a fire station and how they Incorporated those and some of the uh some of these are very old
buildings but yet they've rehabed them and we're missing the Arches on the new building we're missing some of the details that I think could easily without changing the internal design
but giving it a little more um lighter make it look a little lighter um so that's personally I if anyone else has any comments um I mean I I agree
with those comments there has to be some way and I and I'm not familiar with the architectural requirements when you have a courtroom um the courtroom is only one level though in this building isn't it on the bottom for yes but it's a tall space right like we disc right but I
mean there there a on the outside there could be some way to break it up right rather than be this long you know some something in the middle that that kind of breaks it up um and then I just wonder whether at the top or it's not a COR Ro like you have more flexibility to
to Allison's Point put in some details that would kind of bring this back to the historical um site that it was um because right now it's you know these are these are drawings but it looks like just slabs of
brick and uh extremely monolithic and again I respect that there are going to be certain limitations with respect to the courtroom level but I don't think they apply above um and uh there is an opportunity there I think to Alison's point to try and tie this back to the um
historical of the history of this of this build can certainly look at that Parton um do you have anything to add yeah I think I have like four comments I think they're all easily easily doable so um so I
actually I don't mind the new courtroom I mean I I understand what you're trying to do um and I get it uh are they gonna have any skylights or indirect light from above did you think about that um no the we've set up that courtroom roof
to receive solar panels at some point so we don't have skylights coming in there yet okay so you think the the slits on the side will be enough like natural way okay um yeah and I get it that it's trying to meet Secretary of interior standards being different but using
brick which is the predominant material on this building so I understand where you're coming from from that um so a couple things to look at to that maybe are fixable um so on the the um West Side uh what
material is going to be on the ramp it looks like concrete or something uh yes the the ramp and stairs Plaza will be concrete and then the plaza itself so the reason there's a plaza is again about this flood plane thing the new
part of the building is actually a foot higher than the old part of the building because it has to be um in order to meet code of all kinds so that's where the plaza came to be but there will also be Landscaping on the Plaza as well right so we and and the it allows us to get a
staircase here and then along the where it says Township of Milbourne along the face of the existing building that's the Ada ramp up right so that everyone can arrive at that higher level and you know I like how you did that and I understand the difference um I guess it's just kind
of a long uh low wall and so I I my question was materiality just soften it or plantings in front of it that kind of grow up and cover it or something um if any thoughts been given to that I think the functionality of it you know that works and gets you that's almost going
to become the de facto main entrance um you know I appreciate that you're keeping the um mbour Avenue facade um although as the the roof here wraps around the
building it looks like in your drawings that for some reason you're bumping up this cornice line and why are you doing that because it kind of it's kind of nice like it is now because you can tell you know what's different from the original
so any thought about that or it could could it stay like that um I don't see why it couldn't so well again we were just trying to unify this many pieces trying to bring it together in some way right I actually think it would be much
better to keep it just like you can tell that that's different I mean I really like actually this because I can tell oh yeah there's the old fire station everywhere you can see this part of the building is stepped down I I just think that looks like a
lot of work for not a lot of benefit um and then you kind of lose some of the the corest detail and everything so that would be my recommendation is to keep that the way it is um and then on the um that side the East
Side uh you know is there is there any way I I I think you're removing a chimney this here right it's on the end of the building on the North side yes so there's no way to keep that uh it it ends up you'll end up
subsumed in the in the new roof anyway right okay um we're keeping the one that's further south right right and you'll see it in the plan it's actually ends up in the middle of the hall way but it's enough space to get around it I mean even if you like left it there
and rebuilt it from the roof deck up I almost think that would be better than than Dormers um something to kind of make this part of the facade I would make it different I would you know not match the windows you know make them do something you know make them more modern
um drop the roof line or something just like just like you did on this side of the building so that it's uh you know it's not just a really long long faade the way it appears now um you know I I think functionality it's it wouldn't
affect anything you could I would suggest you play with that and try to change the penetration or something just so it looks more modern so um that we know that that's an addition to the building um and then my last comment was
um if there's any way in the plan which I don't see why you couldn't um basically mirror the plan so I would keep that staircase because that's the historic staircase that is not the historic staircase
so um and I think I think if you did that it would actually make things better because then you're putting server rooms tax stuff Tax people you're putting them on that side and then you're putting the zoning officer Township engineer construction official
on the other side and I think on the second floor it would also work perfectly fine too um you know administrator office would be more in the middle which would be nicer and you know you could probably keep all the same people where they are so was there
any consideration why one's there uh over the other um I I would have to take a look at it so a lot of what we a lot of the driver of this because the original building and then this addition and that Edition and this
Edition and that Edition is also very unusual exist structure right things have been cut off and changed and the some of it was we really don't want to move this wall and we're willing to take we can take this wall out so it's
some of that that's going on as well there's a it's a difficult building to this existing building is a difficult building to change we understand it's had many lives and it's done a bit ad hoc in some
places right um that'd be my only other thing to possibly look at just if that's if there's a possibility just because that is the original stair and that there was no stair there it looks like that was the chief of the fire department had his
office there once upon a time so those are my comments thanks what it oh the the can is it was that in not in this original version so the if you look at the last
page of the packet um we did start looking at adding windows up high above the tree line on the North elevation right you can see the round window that would have been sort of where your seal is Right
relatively speaking in the courtroom so we have started to look at that and like I said we can take a look at differentiating the brick in that out that upper area as well first of all I just want to thank you for standing in front of us and we
know it's a tough job and certainly incorporating the manyi lives as Barton said of this particular building um I'm going to get sappy here but if any building right this is to me if any
building should be really the pillar of the town is the municipal building and it's it identifies to me a community and I think this should be uh really represented is that of that and I think
that we've got a great start it's it's a building with a lot of history um it's gone through a lot of things uh originally there was a school setting here now it it was moved across the street and now brick so you know working
with all those pieces I I think is really important because with the fug plane that you have which I recognize now that you've said that uh is the parking lot you know in a future date maybe that's a courtyard to incorporate
those buildings that were trying so the actual East Side could be very lovely and maybe if we think of what maybe the houses behind eventually might be part of this town hall you know looking to
the Future and being able to say we're going to create something you know really spectacular here because I do think that this building is deserving not the historic part what is performed in this building
should be the identity of the community so I just appreciate you guys coming in front of us and thank you for sharing we allowing us to share that and uh we hope you take everybody's comments into
consideration quiet on though um but and I will extend myself and and I'm sure Barton um or anyone up here you know to support or or comment
or um matter of fact we'd love to participate um in this so we appreciate you so thank you thank you very much oh yes um do we have anyone for in the
public who has any questions for this applicant no okay thank you very much thanks yes thank you we'll share this with them later
okay we will move on great so uh next application is number 57411 Highland Avenue Glock 2201 Lot Number Eight it's a contributing property in the Short Hills Park District Harry and Talia gross welcome
back we're anxious um I think what I'm going to ask I think you guys have been sworn in but because we have a new attorney if you don't mind could you be sworn in again perfect mind stating your name for the record please Harry
gross owner Thomas Boo b a IO architect okay and do you swear or affirm that the testimony you will be giving tonight be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do affirm okay please proceed okay thank you um I I want to give background so why
we're here right um the Grocers uh have lived in this home for many many years and intend to live in this house for the remainder of their their lives facilitating the use of a historic home for them is demanding an elevator um
Mrs Gro Talia has recently had surgeries on her feet ankles ankles and hips and finds it very difficult to go up and downstairs and the luxury of it all is the reason we're here they would like to get an elevator on this historic home
the house is a designated home and if you haven't seen it this is a picture of the house it is stule facade and we have identified the best location for the elevator and have litigated the best location over the
last year in front of this board we were here three prior times um the comments were very helpful from those prior visits and most recently in December um when we were here I testified that I
would try to do something to um show the difficulty of placing the elevator anywhere else so I'll start with that I'll try to be quick not it but the house is an L-shaped home and
it has a common foyer here which exists on all three important levels the basement the first floor and the second floor the elevator is this is the best location for it um in our prior iteration of plans I put the elevator
here with its own Lobby so that the cab does not open up directly to the driveway and um there was some issues with the size the the massing the way in which a very important distinctive architecture which was the two Gables
come together with this lower shed roof it's humble but it's an important architectural feature for the house um I have brought pictures I don't know if they are very helpful but I've taken
photographs of the existing home um I only brought one set so pass them around um and I most recently met with Barton to go over this in my office so now I'm going to get to what we've done the elevator cannot be
located anywhere else can I interrupt just for one minute for those who aren't familiar can you show them the spot that you pointed out and where it is located on the survey right there oh on this survey can everybody see it yes sure okay so I want to point out that this is
Western Drive and this is Highland Avenue and the front front of the house is uh the front of the house faces the side of the property and the elevator would be placed right here off of the driveway and at the front foyer so it's
while it does front onto Highland Avenue it's very difficult to see it there's a lot of landscaping the angles not don't really support it but it's an important element because it's in the front of the house um so what we've done other than take pictures to explained it
difficultly since the last meeting was I said what is the smallest possible box we can do I got rid of the foyer that served the elevator I now have the elevator directly opening to the driveway it will allow them to go up one foot and a half onto the first floor of
the house as well as accessibility for the lower level and the second floor I've made the shaftway um what was what was before nearly 11 ft across I've now gotten it down to 6 feet I've
placed the shaftway directly on the facade so that this elevator could easily be removed and this will be restored to the original home one of the elements that came up in the last meeting was the dist assembly of it I've tried to respect the two Gables by
pulling them away far enough where I don't touch those two Gables there's a photo of the EES of one of these Dormers that I took and it's architectural um character so this small you know shaftway no longer touches these two
Gables finally we tried to distinguish this as being different than the historic home by matching the kitchen Edition which was approved by the HPC 15 years ago 20 years ago something like that when did the kitchen get approved
19 1980 wow okay there you go 45 years ago time flies so and in the last um meeting I presented a box which began to look quite common to the house we're going to
return to an original drawing I did which we had a long time ago which is the arched window and the entrance directly onto the driveway I had previously had a canopy here we're going to remove that canopy so other than this
green canopy the Box is thinner smaller and respectful of the architecture of the house such that it can be removed if a future owner so chooses we also introduced that the door
at the bottom would be a steel door further differentiating the structure um in its year right a steel door is very modern um I met with Bon he would like us to get some glass on that door so
um I'll take any commentary on that versus just the steel um the cab would be visible if it was glass they have cabs that are glass the problem with a cab that's glass is that that's where
the door is so I can't find a residential elevator that has a glass door so I kept it with the steel for that reason we still will have the window up here um so you could see the cab
moving um that's really the extent of the changes that we've made over the last year um thank you thank you Barton um you know fill us in with your I mean I've um
I've walked through the house I met with Tom recently um you know we've examined numerous possible Alternatives over the past year plus um around the house uh and you know this newest proposal has
reworked the elevator addition in as minimal a way as is feasible as Thomas pushed it it's no longer necessitating alterations to the existing gable roof nor the shed Dormer uh the glass windows which actually match the other addition
as you can see there they give a more modern style to the addition and match um the previous ones without creating a false sense of history and you know since viable options have been exhausted uh we would recommend approval of this latest design
revision Commissioners uh any questions or comments no I just like to say thank you I mean I think a lot thank you um Barton um Tom did bring up the glass and the the door is that
something that um one way or the other is that something I mean Tom's correct you nobody's going to see see this because of all the landscaping and everything so um you know short of going crazy custom I don't I don't know that
it can be done at least you know a glass elevator itself would be neat but it's enclosed within this outer enclosure yeah what happens on the interior of these residential elevators is the doors they don't have another door to latch on to like in a commercial elevator the
interior cab door and the door to the shaftway are integral until the elevator moves and then the cab door is independent of that door in this case the cab door is a sliding kind of cheesy folding door some are grates that are
you know and uh none of them are going to be another door swing uh in no case there just there's frankly no room so the residential elevators are very restricted that way so I felt that putting a glass door here um we'll do that if you want um I think we'd been
better off with a modern steel door I'm fine with your lead Barton on that Brad uh I was just gonna say I'm I still don't love having an elevator in the front of the house I think that's the face of the house and kind of I know
I I I agree that you respected EES you made changes to it I I'm happy with that if Barton's okay with it I'm I'm okay to go forward with it but I know you mentioned there was other areas you explored yes talk a little bit because I know we gave a lot
of other ideas in our last meeting can you talk to like the issues with those other spots that we discussed sure um actually on the back of this so we're in sketch format but putting the elevator anywhere near that back staircase here is incredibly cumbersome
the land Cape the steps and everything that's going on here with the driveway going to those garages declining significantly makes the placement of an elevated here very difficult there's a mechanical room right here I sent a picture of that in the packet so we'd have to move the mechanical equipment
around and finally on the first floor in this back corner we have the elevator I'm sorry we have the uh kitchen so they would have to dismantle their kitchen to get passage back to the front foyer because their bedrooms are over here so the the common area is really here for
the best one I looked at another alternative can it go into the corner um the corner elevator would allow us to access the kitchen and the basement this way on the second floor it's not as good because it comes into uh a big room and
they'd have to come down a step there's a step in here to get back to the principal area foyer and they found it very cumbersome I also think the box in the corner which I drew is a is just a real dog I mean it's just it you talk
about an assault on his house I I think it was I drew it up I'm sorry if it's on tracing paper but I think it's just it's you know even if I put something tiny in that corner let do this correctly
there so we studied that one the only other alternative that um we discussed but it would be a major uh cut into the house was can the elevator go inside we put ramps out here ramps to get into the house they would prefer not to have that
the driveway turnaround is all right in here um um I'm getting the picture one second this is the driveway it comes right up to the front door ramps would have to be
shoveled um deced not the most most convenient thing for them they want to be able to pull up and go right into the elevator and so we mixed that idea of the internalization of the elevator and we're hoping that this board sees it to
help the grosses get this elevator in their later life and that the accommodations we have made are the best of what I would call the worst opportunity worst cases well certainly i' I'd like to say you know I appreciate your patience and
and working do this with us and understanding that really the front of the building should be preserved but also um after consideration is the fact that anyone who lives in a historic
house is challenged that the lots have been subdivided over time so this particular house you have two sides of Street you're on a corner lot your house is facing not one particular Main Street
street so taking all that into consideration um I I like what you've done here and I appreciate the time that you've spent on it and the thought process in which and you've allowed us to kind of work through this too um so
again I just wanted to remind the Commissioners this is a very difficult uh positioned house and I think we need to show some possible via for this uh so with that
said any other comments or okay so uh I'll take this time is anyone here in the audience for this application
no um so do I hear a motion to approve first of all should we we don't have specs on that particular elevator no no it was in packet okay great the it's a it's a searia this is the model
great and the door maybe that's what I the door I put into the packet right on here it's a steel door it's going to look modern um the most important element of this door is to keep water out from the shaftway um because we're right on the driveway I don't have a foyer anymore u in making this smaller
that door had to be a very good waterproofing door I met with this company who sells steel doors that's what everybody wants on houses now it seems um and they you know they certified that this thing could be 12 Ines underwater and it won't allow water
to go in the way the steel engages with the other piece of Steel produces a a weather resistant element well let's hope that never happens yeah we'll have a sump pump in and like all elevators you should have a sump at the very bottom in the pit so well thank you
again um so do I hear a motion to approve this application as it stands second second thank you I don't think uh Gary can vote I I watched the videos you watch the video actually right so we can vote he can say
is it on Netflix I'm waiting for the sequel so Ro please Brad jenin uh yes Alison Canfield yes Elizabeth yes ch yes and Gary yes thank
you perfect thank you again for your patience can I just confirm really quickly the plans that you were showing they that's what was submitted identical okay thank you Tom thank you
okay let's let's try to speed this up I'll move it we got the guy here we go okay new business application number 597 47 Wyoming Avenue block 205 Lot number
10 this is a contributing property help this is a contributing property thank you um in the Wyoming historic district John okay John and Patricia Mueller are the
app app an this is a regulatory application for construction of an attached addition with garage off the left side facade and other property improvements
um if we could have the applicant and Architects War name please sure can you say your names for the record please John Muller Timothy Clon okay and do you sare or affirm that the testimony you will be tonight will be the truth
the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do I do okay please proceed just to a brief introduction my name is again John Mueller thanks for the board to consider this application um I've been a resident for 25 years
can't believe I'm saying that but 25 years uh have five kids and um we love Mur we we think it's the great it's just a great town and I've been blessed to see my kidss grow up and participate in the town the community so um you know we
want to uh build an addition that welcomes um what will be a growing family in the future and my wife and I want to stay in the community so appreciate you taking a look and that's why we hired 10 working on this for for for a year
he's been working on with me for almost a year but even before that I think they've been working on it on and off for almost 10 years he kept you on can you believe it no other ARS I just came on about a year ago oh okay okay I don't know who there was a couple other
Architects anyway um I don't know my license is in good standing do I have to we trust you okay it's um 417 Wyoming block 205 Lot 10 built in I think 1905 that's what it
appears to built um the intent here is to I I guess John's like finish paying for or pretty much finish paying for the kids college and now wants to clean the house up and stay in it and um eventually make it
their family home where you know he he they have these five kids and they plan that the kids will end up married and end up with grandchildren and this will actually be their family home I heard he was expanding yeah that's what I he's
he's not having any more kids no more kids because um I do have a high school oh he has one left but the um his wife's not having any more kids I just happen to know that so what we did is we um wanted to
build this addition onto this slot and we did it and we proposed um an early design back on January 15 I sent it to Barton because I was seeking his input because I know it's really a it's you know a
contri contributing property in h in the district and it's a prominent house to say the least and so we sent it to Barton we received input back and forth with um some of the members on the commission and Barton and came back and
submitted again on about mid-February and then cleaned up our stuff and finally submitted what you see before you on about March 3D okay when we finally completed our application and
I'll just walk you through on my sheets which are exactly the same as your HPC sheets there are 21 series and that's only because we had a one series and then we had a 10 series
which really those two previous submissions that we had kind of worked on and we're just trying to keep track of what we're doing uh but this is our 20 series it's really our third set the other two sets are here if we want to look at them but I don't think they really matter for us
this evening what I'm on my HPC 21 on the left side is the existing site and on the right side is the proposed site and on the propos site we're proposing to build an addition along the Cedar Street
side the house presently doesn't have a garage believe it or not and part of this problem would be to give us a garage give us a family room and give us a master bedroom suite as well as renovating the entire building and one
of the um the primary things that we were being asked to do really from um review as we looked at it was to form a little notch or a link to connect the new building to the old building you can see that as this little cutout on the
front and the back of the building that's sort of like a little buffer space between the old structure and the new structure sort of that transitional Zone and um that's what we think is allowing us to pull off this sizable addition on this side then we left the
driveway exactly where it is and we just cut our grade here to come into our garage and then we have buffer and tree plant in both sides of the property line so that the um this new garage that we at is really
I'm going to say you know not really visible at all from the street except if you were coming down the and you managed to get a look in through that little diagonal window it's a little bit of an awkward driveway but it's serves the
purpose of making the garage doors themselves not visible from the street I I guess I do also want to say that the primary elevations of this building are the front and the back they're the pretty elevations of the building and that's part of the reason
why we're coming on to the side because it's it's really a a much subordinate elevation on the building and that's something that we talked about a lot with um with Barton I'm just going to skip the well I guess I should show you
really the this is really our basement plan and I'm on my HPC 22 we come in through the driveway come in and we come into this new garage space which is down on that lower level if I come
up I get up into my my first floor which is my 23 sheet and we have minor renovation to the interior of the basic house like we're able to leave the hallway leave the dining room leave the
living room we have removed the kitchen that was in the back corner here and I've constructed a new kitchen and a new family room over our garage area and this is that sort of Notch that I was describing before which is sort of
letting us link the two buildings together but it gives us the spaces we're looking for and um you know allows the owner to really stay in in the house when I come up to my 24 sheet which is my second floor we
have made some interior modifications um minor but really just adding bathrooms there's a situation now where all the kids are basically running to this one bathroom behind the uh stairway the back stair on the right side so we made some modifications then
came in added more to the kids wing and then built a primary bedroom suite on the left side and that Suite is pushed down into the building as we'll look at a better detail on the rendering when we come up to the third floor and this is a
big tall house we come up to the third floor we really left it exactly as it was didn't change anything on I come to my I'm on my 26 now my elevation the primary building is really on the right
side and um to get an idea how big the building is I got to say it's probably almost 45 feet tall it's really you know a big building but that's our primary building
our connecting link which we trying to push down to minimize our connection between the old building and the new building and then our new building here on the left side right it's really subordinate to the old building as we
look at you see better show better in the rendering I come in the driveway side this is the side that I think the Cedar Street side which is really hard to see low because of of the planting that's in front but we come in we have
on on my my 27 sheet now our kitchen our family room with this screen porch and then we come up on the upper level to our primary bedroom suite and up here is the existing third floor and
there's actually even a pretty tall attic space above I mean if you got a chance to really go to this house it's really a big building oh here we tagged the elevation well from the first floor it's
38 almost 39 ft now I'm on the rear of the site I'm on my 28 it's uh I guess the best way is if you were coming down Cedar this is really the back of the building you can see that
the rear of the existing building is actually detailed pretty well the front and rear are detailed very well in this and this is our building coming into it really subordinate to the existing and that is the screen porch that's coming
out sort of over the garage right these windows are actually in the garage those two lower windows but we've pushed the building down and clipped it that's our link as we cut
through I come to my HPC 29 it's the we call it the right side elevation sort of the high side the existing building there's that one story existing which probably at one point was an open p or you know a place where you they
drop the um the ice or the milk at some point in time and something like that and this is our addition but our addition is now way back off of the picture Plane off of this picture plane this is probably about I don't know 40
feet right and you lose the depth in the elevation in front of there is a little Pao space right bc30 is really just a section through the link um I I get I didn't we didn't really
need to include it to you but we can see how we have pushed the link as low as possible to be able to still pass through now I have my existing drawings you want me to run for them um
yeah yeah I could just forget the ex on that you we Barton had reviewed or existing yeah yeah yeah we have them all and I know you wanted them you'd want them for record and we did the whole thing but that's it what this whole
thing looks like I guess I is this is really standing on the corner of um Cedar and Wyoming right maybe a little up Wyoming so you can see our building and then the primary building with the link between
it and we've match the material the house is a wood roof um I don't know how long ago you put the wood roof on it but I remember you yeah I don't know how long ago 15 years 15 years it's been on and the new work would all be a wood
roof I know Barton made a comment to us about uh not using ASAC that's no issue at all to us I looked back part and I figured out that where I really used it was on the paneling for the panel of the paneling
but we could just as well use marine plywood to do the same thing yeah and that's um that's really everything I think I have at this point right we really designed a two-story I'm going to say subordinate
addition to the existing building it allows us to renovate this home and clean it up and restore it and Pres reserve it and um allows it to be able to go on and continue with its life as and we allows a lot of other things
like getting the snowblower and the cars and all of that off of the site I don't know if you saw all of that and how you come up high on the site if we can get our parking down low we'll actually remove all those cars and remove all of that parking clean this whole site
up um and I guess that's my entire presentation I'll try to make it quick before Barton we don't need a variance for this is that within the you're within F we are it's unbelievable how much f is
available the um really yeah it's uh was R5 the site has U it's an R5 yeah it has 9,000 square feet of of allowable f it's probably at about
6,000 done maybe 6,200 it's way under everything is way under building coverage is actually way under yeah and so and lot coverage is under by
about 3,500 square feet it's yeah I won't have to hear it again yeah no the the only thing that I was discussing with Eileen was um Building height and the the question that comes
up is when I add to the right do I lower the mean grade and is she gonna make me go for a variance for not the new building but for the old building but it it seems like that doesn't seem to be an
issue just another housekeeping kind do we really know originally his historically which was the front of the house house I'm questioning whether or not the back was the front you know I don't know I have like old really old
blueprints I think it was 1902 1905 right and the Wyoming side is the font because what you see I mean it's a picture that's very snowy but we found it for there was two owners before me there was the kellogs um and they owned it from 1902
to 1951 and then the oswalds and then we came in 2000 so it's been three owners that's it since um you know 1902 there's this old picture uh on from the Wyoming side of a a horse and and carriage
pulling up to to that side it's like a snowy beautiful picture from way back when so that was the front of the house the because the other streets probably weren't cut yet yeah Cedar those streets probably W I would guess right I wasn't
around that's the front and the back you know I mean they usually circulated somehow around I was just curious and my next question is are you crazy where I'm in the process of downsizing and you you're
expanding I'm just joking I just have a big family and I love everybody being able to come come yeah I understand I understand any uh Barton any comments uh I know you had some conditions would you like to go over this it's an
important house it's on a corner property um and you know I I appreciate Tim uh working through the design with us um so we are able to you know get a a hyphen and so nobody's ever gonna
mistake that this isn't an addition to the house um and he even tried to break down the mass of the three-car garage where it almost looks like a two-car and an extra so we did a lot with that changing roof lines of the additions to make it the intersecting roof that it is
now um so you know this came a long way uh credit to the applicants and uh yeah my only comments were just for The Hyphen and some of the the ASAC details if they could be would and I think Tim is amendable to that and then my only
other comment was um kind of the the family room I I almost feel like it needs like just one more historic acutran or something and so in the family room they have a vented fireplace and my thought was could that
just be a chimney to kind of balance the new facade other than that everything uh we would recommend approval because of all the work that went into this Sy I will tell you that was one of the features that architecturally this side
of the house is so beautiful that that particular where the vent is coming out I I agree with your comment Barton um it it need some architectural detail right there here yes just right
there where where the driveway is is this here's the driveway unless okay we're good okay so you're yes yes so yes oh
great thank you any other questions or comments from the Commissioners no I think it looks great this is a beautiful house I know this house P it it's I think this is a great addition Timothy and all of you guys have done great work
together so does look good yeah thank you it look a lot better once it's done you're gonna live through it though right yeah that's the problem this is one of the ones that I actually think it's gonna look better like I don't think I think it's gonna like bring the house down because
the house is so high you know G kind of bring it down a little bit like round it a little bit so I think it's gonna I think it's excellent um is there anyone in the audience for this application no okay um so do I hear a
motion to approve with the conditions which are listed uh and adding also them that chimy off the family room is that correct do I hear a second
second congrat congatulations oh thank you oh there's no vote oh yes so um so we go quick Jenkins yes Alison Canfield Elizabeth
W yes thank you thank I thought it was like some good thing or something well you know you never know thank you great job app good luck to you we're excited I need the very
exciting very exciting great okay I can hold it together got a few more here uh application number 599 17 Forest Drive block number 2104
Lot number one it's a contributing property in the shills Park District Brett and Wy CER are the applicants it's a regulatory application for construction of a rear addition and other property improvements if we can have whoever will
be speaking smor in please yeah that would be me that' be you can you st your name for record please niches Gord can you spell your last name please KDE okay and do you swear or affirm to test um that the testimony you will be giving tonight will be the truth the
whole truth and nothing about the truth I do um if I could ask one more thing since this is the first time you've appeared in front of us can we make sure that it is oh yeah absolutely perfect um can you I'm sorry what is your what is your
position I'm an architect I'm a princip one of the principal Architects at gr Design Studio okay and um where did you go to school uh in India okay are you licensed in the I'm LIC in the United States in New Jersey California and Pennsylvania okay and uh when were you
licensed in New Jersey 23 okay and is your license still in good standing yes it is perfect thank you welcome welcome oh this is one we were questioning the notices oh okay um so did you were you
able to serve notices yes we were able to serve notices and do we have a copy of who did you provide did you guys give it to someone that Mike n from our office he actually provided and I don't know who he provided it
to yeah we don't know either okay so yeah can we move forward without I'm pretty sure we've provided I've confirmed it I don't have um I don't have proof that notices were provided we're not doubting it's just
none of us uh work at that desk so yeah we're all new we have a new attorney somebody's filling so we believe me this has been a fiasco here so we we can take your word and follow just follow up later that it was
delivered um well I mean so it I mean it does become a jurisdictional issue that there's no one here to object or comment notice right okay um I mean it is a jurisdictional issue though um so you know I mean realistically they
would if it wasn't noticed then it would need to be noticed and they would need to come back is there do you have anything that would with you that would show that it was done and I can just look at it really quickly I could find out if the board
would give me some time I could text the person and find out whether I can get it for you IMM sure did you want to um Circle back to this one yeah uh except I think we have a problem with the next one too but we're aware that we'll come
back next week so this is for acep yeah vi just to make sure that we're good but we're we're aware okay perfect okay so and we do have to go back to the other agenda items right we do so do you want to do that while he's
trying to get we'll do the agenda items first well we can we can go back we can go to that okay perfect okay so if you don't mind we're gonna jump to the next application sounds good and then I'll ready sorry to push you back a little bit
but perfect okay so let let's move to application number 602 141 Forest Drive block number 30004 Lot number three is a non contributing property in the Short Hills Park
District um the applicants are custom Building Group LLC uh it's a regulatory application for construction of a rear addition and other property improvements and we are in full agreement this is concep okay
until the notices and yeah okay um if we could have conceptional do they need to be sworn in I'm sure no they're not providing any testimony they're gonna have to come back and do everything on the record so okay so please proceed okay my name is Mark Marian hi
Mark I'm an architect and good standing in the state of New Jersey and um licens since uh I don't even know 89 uh so you should have a package in front
of you um of the drawings and some photos um existing house um the interior has been gutted already it was purchased completely
gutted uh from what I understand andd yeah yeah yeah that's all right pardon you found him cool um I could go over the pictures I don't have
them printed but I don't there's a front elevation most of the addition is to the rear we're doing a major alteration to the inside of the house but we're not really affecting the outside
thanks so much appreciate it uh the main interior Renovations are uh on the first floor we're adding a guest Suite down there with an additional bathroom we're expanding the kitchen area and opening that up uh basically where it is but the basic layout is the
same we're also adding some amenities like Butler's pantry and working on the mud room but the front elevation should stay intact uh Windows we're keeping we are going to put a wood roof on it uh replace the roof um pardon
just just the addition oh just the addition okay um it's really two and a half stories on the Second Story there's four bedrooms two baths existing and we're rearranging that and opening up the F the family
room to make that two stories and we're putting moving the laundry up that's part of the addition on the second floor and we're also um expanding the master bathroom out the rear kind of rearranging uh adding a nice walk-in
nice windows out the back in a with Dormers and a a nice master bathroom uh but basically there's still four bedrooms on this level with three baths plus the laundry that that did
move up uh and in the Attic it's a big there's a space up in the existing attic that we're basically filling in it's like open it's almost three stories tall the foyer was all the way up to the attic and U we're going to fill in that
floor so it'll only be two stories high and U we'll have to have a bedroom and a bathroom up there and U but it's really we're not making any volume changes the Dormers exist to the rear and all the wind the windows stay the same so it's really
Interiors uh that are being affected the main thing is in the rear elevation which I think is the A6 which is probably the last sheet uh you can see there's an a kind of a two-story addition which is a Gable
coming out the back um in the middle of the the building it's not coming out very far we're not even really I think we're adding 100 square feet um in the kitchen area um so there's an an existing door
in the family room and we're adding windows up high that'll be a two-story space the door to the left of uh this just single pair of French doors that is to the breakfast kitchen area and the window above that is the
laundry room so it's going to get bricked it's currently bricked at the base um and on the Dormer Edition over the garage G really and the kitchen is for the master bedroom and um this currently has three
small if we affectionately refer to them as dog house Dormers out the back and we're kind of incorporating that into a shed dorm with a little Gable accent which is really where the master bedroom is the window to the left is is in the
bathroom and um we're just going to utilize uh matching materials on the back it's most brick it has some like rough Edge siding um on the second floor and we're
planning on using some Hardy plank U wavy edged uh F fiber cement siding uh on the second floor would be really just at the master suite
level uh so like on yes exactly thank you um so and that's basically it's a pretty small addition out the rear um but with just major alterations on the
inside um Barton you had a a few comments or yeah well we know this property and this is It's 1983 original depiction um and uh you know I'm I'm happy they're saving the house they're
gonna gut it and redo it which is I think what we all wanted all along so the originally were looking they wanted to take down the chimneys but we're not going to do that we're keeping them but they're uh they're really remaining as decorative but we are keep you won't
know see this addition from from the front at all or know anything happened any comments from Commissioners I just have one just clarification the current roof on this house is asphalt
and you're going to put a cedar Shake on the addition the addition part there's not much roof we adding but yeah okay I guess we'll be back and I'll clarify that more for okay perfect perfect and then the only other thing as
uh the comments Buton that that paint colors we don't have you know jurisdiction over but one of the comments was you would match it these are paintable so they'll match the existing um it's
painted or stained very dark yeah the um the the shingles now appear to be wood which is why we went with this I just noticed in the notes that it says possible so we'll compare the two but the goal would be to match so that was why we chose the wood initially yeah okay and you'll have all
of that for us with the full set right sweet perfect well thank you I mean okay I think unless anybody has anything that great yeah thank you for being
patient just to confirm the next one will be May 1 be May 1 yeah just make sure when you notice it won't be in this building it's going to be in the Board of Education building okay I wasn't sure so I was going to just put a note to say make sure to call the town before you go to the meeting just to make sure yeah
you saw you were here you saw it happening okay but for that meeting we'll put you first on the agenda appreciate it was very sweet thank you very good good luck thank you apprciate oh sure we're just gonna take a quick break
so we found all the hard copies you're good to go yep good good to go I've made a mess up here thank I know a many many years so yeah that's the fire one yeah didn't approve the one that was supp to
knock we approved the second version of an entirely new house yeah but then they didn't go forward with it oh it's actually my I know they work on a lot uh this is 417 loming Avenue no that was
17 oh good thank you so that is okay apologize that was um the one on Highland it 17 Forest Oh I thought that was that was the one
that 1 that was 17 the right you know what there's going to be an issue next month if he comes back for 17 Highland with everyone has to watch the Youtube
videos he was here okay um can we make a note that you remind everybody was Tim one where they wanted to completely change the but now they've decided to move the addition in the back
do you know what month that was approximately we can do like we did on this one get a list of which agency actually year okay perfect then we'll send that out to everyone so thank you again for being so patient um we did find hard cop perfect
excellent it's in the right hands so please proceed soon as I get this he will working so while you're doing that for the record I did review the proof of service and everything is in order so we do have jurisdiction to hear the application
tonight excellent I think I'm having birday with didn't work either old fashion always looks so good thank you so I'm Nel Gord I'm I am the architect for this project um Wendy here is one of
the is the homeowner she and her husband Brett we designed a rear patio for them uh on 17 Forest Drive I'd like to start with the site plan to begin with and explain to you how it's situated so the
main entrance to the house is on Parkplace and not on Forest you actually have the garage side that's on Forest what we're trying to do is we're trying it's a corner lot and what we're trying to do is they're trying to create an
open patio a covered patio on the that's adjacent to the family room so there's some sort of indoor outdoor space there's some sort of you know more use of the space basically right now if you look at the pictures of the current
property on page A4 if I'm looking at the rear yard it's almost like it it's almost like it abruptly ends there's no continuation to it there's no place to entertain people and
there's no there's no way to make good use of the pool and the spa and the connecting spaces that are there to the existing house so what we tried to do is we've tried to create an of covered porch covered patio on the rear that's really
not visible even from the Forest Drive side or the park as side but it's the only way it's possibly visible is from lot 14 and lot two that you can see over here lot 14 and lot two um the orientation of the house the
setbacks in themselves and the natural screening that you see in the pictures that's that's kind of does not make a massive visual impact to the property so what what I have here are the existing plans of the
house again I just want to reorient you guys to understand we're looking at Park Place on the front here forest drive on the right and what the patio that we are trying to add is on the back side of the family room and the office
now what that patio is going to do is actually if you look on the second floor there's really no addition on the second floor you have the primary facing the r yard and there's a Terrace on this I'm on A2 thank you so there's just a primary that faces
the rear yard and there's a Terrace that also faces the rear yard on the second floor now I'm going to A3 now I'd like to go order new people so there's really nothing that's
happening on the front elevation the front elevation is an existing elevation it's an amazing hearts on ele hearts on design there's there's clearly some additions that have come in the future it's got that 20th century colonial revival style to it there's no symmetry
as such but there is definitely a very nice Rhythm to the house what I really like about it is that there are some elements from the front of the house that I want to pick up and design the rear patio so you see those round columns that are there the railing the flat roof those are elements that I
really picked up and we tried to design the rear patio based on that if I look at the rear elevation in itself it it still has some 1990s RAR additions that are there on it you see that there's a there's a line of lables
that happens and those things so I want to try and be sensitive in the design when it comes to rear addition because the addition we're trying to propose it somewhere over here that's the primary you see that's the Terrace that you saw and we're trying the one story Edition
right down here again back to the pit the elements of design that trying to pick up are those round columns the flat roof and the railing that you see and the addition that's going to be here and as you can see this side is the Forest
Drive and it's pretty much hidden with the Landscaping that exists over there now A5 shows basement there's really no change to the basement A6 we have a zoomed in plan of connection to the family
room we have these wonderful French doors that open out and right now there's nothing covered over there so that's where the covered pack is designed that's the family room that you see in the that you saw in the existing plants the family room and the office
that's the existing kitchen so only so the patio actually exists in most of the place we're trying there's just a new addition to the patio and then we are covering up the old and the new together and then we're building an
outdoor kitchen right next to it that's not covered so when I'm trying to design it I'm trying to design it within the lines that I see over here you'll see it in the elevations when we move on so what that what's start doing to the
second floor is that I have a Terrace right about right next to the primary over here that just gets extended the reason is that I don't want to have really high roof lines and high roof profile because I don't want it competing with what's existing I still
want that narrow horizontal look so instead of doing something crazy with the roof over here we just extended the terce so it still has that low rise low field to it and just going to extend the railing all across right now the existing Terrace is here the railing
will just push out and go here I'm going to skip A8 which is attic plan there's no change to the attic going to jump to A9 so what you're seeing on A9 is actually Thee the lower the front elevation is exactly the same there's no change
there's no addition there's nothing over there what you're seeing on A9 this side is lot 14 side if you go back to the first page I you'll know what I'm saying yeah that's the only thing that you're going to see again what I'm
trying to do is as a balcony extension keeping it under the the second floor level trying a more horizontal profile rather than trying to go vertical or you know doing some crazy roof stuff over there trying to have basically trying not to make it
very obvious that it's it's an extension I'm going to a 10 now if you look at A10 this is the part that we are extending right now um on the extreme right side and then there's the small kitchen that's the uncovered kitchen that you see over
here um so in terms of design what I want to say is that the shallow roof line supports the existing design there's if you look at it this is about a third of the whole length that I'm going I'm not going the entire length for the rear patio if I look at the
height I'm in terms of massing I'm like a third of the height you're at 35 38 ft over here roughly and I'm just doing a 10t addition so as a volume and as a mass that gets attached to the building it's not a very massive
volume it's it's just reinforcing the horizontal dimension of the house existing house okay I'm moving on to A1 I should have introduced this part at the very beginning if you guys go back to
uh A1 page A1 there's a small existing shed over there now this shed is in disrepair it's not safe the homeowners actually want to update it like make it so that it becomes safe and they want to replace the existing exterior finishes
like for like so we kind of we said we're going to do it with certainty and then we got comments from Barton that we need to change the we we had selected vyl windows before but we'll go with wooden windows that match the existing
and the asphalt shingles that will match the existing again the shed's not really clearly visible from the outside but we like how the house is designed we like to maintain the character and that's why we're going to go with something that really lives up to the standards of the
house all right and then on the last page I have a rendering of how that patio is going to look the covered patio how how the extension is going to look how the railing and the balcony is going to look in terms of materials finishes
colors I we will match the existing we found a company that scans the existing color and because every color changes with time and climate they're going to see which is the closest matching shade that we can get over there we're going to do that the columns that we're
calling out are h D and D columns um those are not on the sets that you have right now they are round fiberglass columns that we're calling out for and obviously the railing is going to be composite it's going to match what's
there uh the blue stone papers are existing there are a continuation of the blue stone papers for the floor um there's this small wall that you see that hides the kitchen that's going to match the retaining wall material
on the SES on the property that's it Barton you want to yeah I I think the Design's great obviously this is a very important house as well but this is on the rear patio um and they aren't affecting you know the primary facades
really um and even with the shed I think I think it's just um the Design's great it's just materials so no vinyl materials um and I guess if you don't want to use wood for the railings and everything my recommendation was you're already using fiberglass for the columns
you know you could use fiberglass hbng railings we could do that that would be much better than Vining so all right we can definitely do that great any questions or comments so so this wall you're showing in the rendering mat this wall it's not going
to be like this that's right it's going to match I wouldn't want to do that it's to be criminal just one L thing this the the railings that come off by the outdoor kitchen it's it shows like a black almost metal is is that
what it's going to be in the end or is it going to be more like a white like all the other railings are it's going to be like all the other railing okay so that was just yeah that's how re made the yeah um housekeeping no variance no
variance we are under lot coverage we are under building coverage and the building shed you're just renovating so I'm sure we're going to repair it and just renovate it that's okay and the shed and asphalt roof again just the way it is now the way it is now there's no
change to it okay the windows will match the windows that are there on the shed I think they're 3 over two awning so that's the same windows that we'll be doing that perfect um so Barton will will we need I guess we'll just need
specs on the Windows cuz I think we sent across specs but I I am carrying a copy and the change in the railings I do have a copy of [Music] the 29 25 that's the window um trying to
color match so there are color options col there so the most important thing to us is simulated divided light with sper bar or true divided light one or the other U so no inside uh I get you no
mutton in inside the glass or anything they want to go to two pain glass okay I will definitely forward this to you once more and we match whatever is required okay perfect um do we have anyone from the public there you go you live okay way to
go um so hearing none uh do I hear a motion to approve this application with the conditions which are written on Barton's report and Barton will also follow up on window specs follow up and
railing specs I guess and that should be sufficient y so de do I hear a motion second second excellent okay vote I didn't forget this Brad Jenkin yes Alison Canfield yes Elizabeth wongo yes
Bank Chada yes Gary Rosen yes congratulations it's a beautiful home Beau yeah okay guys just have a couple of house cleaning got to go back I forget what we
forgot um okay perfect um yeah watch out okay so right now we're just going to go back to meetings we we needed one more person to vote uh the minutes of
February 6 2025 meeting have been distributed um no you have any questions uh let's just all in favor say I I all those
opposed minutes have been approved uh memorializations we have application number 577 122 Cyprus Street application number 594 one morine and application number 596 441 Wyoming Avenue do I hear
a motion to approve the memorial memorializations as listed the second roll please Jin yes yes
put this you weren't okay so you won't be able to vote so we have one two three can we do that I that's everybody everybody have
to vote so yeah was a able to vote perfect okay they've been approved all right so with that said I'd like to conclude this meeting the public
oh is there anyone in the public any oh gosh okay so do I I move to adjourn this meeting do I have a second all right meeting aour thank you
guys