Donna. >> Hey. >> Just waiting on Chris. charger real quick. Right back Oh, there he is. Hello. >> Hey, Chris. >> Hey. Can you guys hear me? >> Yes.
>> Okay, good. I thought the meeting's at 8 o'clock tonight. >> Nope. So, >> so from now on, the next meeting is at 8 o'clock. So January 8th is at 7 and then after that it's at 8
>> depending on if we pass the resolution. >> Wow. Is uh who else is on here? >> Uh it's just us three today. I think Corey and Shinook are unavailable. Um and they had told me in advance.
>> Oh, okay. All right. Is is there anyone from the audience? Is there anyone on Zoom? >> Yep. Uh, we have three members of the public. >> All right. Well, then uh let's get started. Wow. Um
uh welcome everyone. Uh this isn't uh Thursday. This is Tuesday, December 30th. Correct. >> Correct. [laughter] >> Um
let me do the uh opening statement. Um, good evening everyone. Welcome to the December 30th meeting of Milbourne Township uh Charter Study Commission which is called to order. Uh in accordance with section 5 to the Open
Public Act chapter public laws uh 1975 be advised that this notice of the meeting was made by posting on the bulletin board in the town hall and forwarding to the official designated newspapers that this meeting would take place on Zoom on Tuesday, December 30th
meeting. uh details and draft agenda will be uh um posted. I guess we'll uh I guess we'll um what you call it? Uh salute the flag. Should we do this?
>> Or Jerry, I I I see the American flag there. >> There we go. >> Let's go. Uh, I pledge allegiance >> allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
>> All right, good. Uh, roll call. >> Right. Mr. Biller, Dr. Present. Miss Parker Lens, >> present. >> Mr. Tenno, >> Mr. Ducker, >> here.
Um, could I have uh approval of the agenda? >> Um, before we do that, I just wanted to point out that it's Tuesday and not Thursday, so there's a typo on the agenda. Um, so um we I make a motion to
amend and then also to approve with that amendment. I don't know if we have to do it separately, but >> um >> um do I make a motion to amend? Uh, sure. >> I'll second that motion. >> Great.
>> Um, all in favor? >> I >> I Okay. All right. >> Um, I'll make a motion to approve the agenda as amended. >> I second that. >> We lost We lost Mr. Ducker. >> Thanks.
We'll give him a moment to reconnect. >> Yeah, there he is. Welcome back. >> Welcome back. >> All right. Um, so can we have approval of the agenda?
>> Uh, yes. So I vote in f I vote in favor as well. >> All right. >> Right. Perfect. >> All in favor? I >> I >> All right. Um, do we have the uh minutes of the December 18th, 2025 meeting?
>> Yeah, I sent those last night. Yep. >> Um, >> right. >> I'll make a motion to approve them. >> Okay, >> I second that. >> Right. All in favor? I >> I >> All right. Uh, any any reports so far?
Um, so just one report. Uh, so I've been working with the township employees to fix up our website a little bit based on the feedback we got last time. Um, so the agenda is hopefully a little more accessible. Um, I still need to work on getting the recordings up. So I will do
that um, right after the meeting tomorrow. Hopefully. I don't know if ton of employers are working tomorrow, but I'll get the recordings of the prior meetings up on the web as well. And uh I I also have a report. Um well actually I
will do my report. Um, I spoke with uh I had a meeting today with Chris Meyers and for the dates going forward for us to use the uh Bower Center as our meeting and we went over each and every
date which I will give everyone uh later on in our meeting. Uh we we can use the Bower Center for all the dates that we ask for. we will use the fireplace room in in in the back there. So, that's uh
that's a very very good news because um as you folks can see, I'm very good with Zoom. [laughter] All right, let's go to uh public comment. To speak during the public comment period, please follow these
instructions in ensure your Zoom display name show your first and last name. Click the raised hand button when public uh comment is announced. You will be called upon in order and promoted to panelist. Turn on turn on your video
when called to speak. Clearly state your full name and whether you are Milburn resident or business owner to facilitate an orderly meeting and permit all to be heard. Please limit your comments to three minutes. [snorts] Um does anyone
have anything to say? Uh I have I see one hand raised. So Tom Hilder let me panelist. [clears throat] [clears throat] [snorts] I'm still muted.
Hey, >> ready to go. All right. Good evening everybody. Um I I had some questions. Uh this is the first meeting I've attended on behalf of the Short Hills Association. Um but in advance u I'm not
quite sure what has has occurred so far, but these are some of the issues that I want to raise. Um, one one administrative thing. You did have a meeting on December 18th and is there a video? Has that been published? Is that available to review? That's one of my
questions. Um, second question. I see the uh motion to hire Michael Collins, which I applaud. I also applaud, by the way, the ability to get uh access to the agenda, which I was able to do tonight. So that's uh those are two good things
that uh that you folks are doing. Uh one of my other questions though is whether you intend to employ a municipal expert like Mark Fifer or some other qualified person to assist you because I think that could make be very helpful in
dealing with interviews and what questions that you form uh to ask the people you're interviewing and what perspective and background it would give you. And while we're on the question of uh interviews, uh one question I have is
are you going to publish the questions that you're going to ask the interviewers? Other people like the Red Bank or Hell have done that. And with regard to the interviews, are you going to publish the results not as part of
say a final report but on an interim basis either by uh publishing memos or I don't know how you're doing the interviews whether you're doing transcripts or not recording the interviews or not. Um but it would be helpful to see those I think to see
those interviews as we go along. Another question I have is whether you're going to get any public input to the questions. So several towns do p did publish the questions that they're going to ask. I think that is redbank and it would be helpful I think to your work if
you had some public input as to the questions. You might get some ideas from the public that would be helpful things you you know you can't think of everything um and that would help you expand that. Also I'd be interested in hearing what your plans are for public
outreach generally and get input of the public. Um, the mention of the Bower meetings, I don't know if that means now that those meetings will be in person rather than Zoom. I'm assuming that's what that's referring to, but maybe I have that that wrong. So, um, I, uh,
also would be interested in being told, uh, who is going to be interviewed and I mean, are you going to interview, uh, the existing township committee members, which you may have done already, former members, former employees? Um, again, I think a public input in that may or may
not be helpful. You can get the information. You may disregard it or you may say, "Gee, that's a good idea." So, that would be something that you could uh could do. Um, so those are those are my questions uh initially for you folks.
Thank you. >> Can I tackle a few answers >> or you or did you want to tackle them, Chris? Um I think I think all three of us will uh uh answer answer Tom's questions. Uh
no we are not publishing uh the questions uh for our uh in people that we are going to interview and >> beforehand interview I'm sorry >> we we will publish them beforehand but
we are not after >> we are not publish them beforehand okay and um our their answers will be uh in our in our final report. I am not
going to give I am not going to give their answers to the public right away. If if the public has questions, all right, we will we will address their we we have the ability to go back to each
person that we have interviewed so far. So far, we have interviewed all the current township uh committee people. We have interviewed all of four of the department heads. And
let me tell you guys something. Um since it's uh since it's unofficial, we have gotten so many so many honest and and and forthright
uh answers to our questions and Dr. Jerry Khan, myself and Joanna, we formulated these questions and I can guarantee you nobody nobody has any any other questions that that we haven't
thought of. But if if the public um uh has has questions, we will be more than happy uh to to um uh go over them. And if we miss something, we will go
back to resp to the respective people that we have interviewed. Joanna, you have anything else to say? >> Yes. Yes. So, I think Tom, what what would have been helpful if we did have if we were able to get the employees to put our videos up, you would have seen in our last meeting that we discussed that we were going to tackle the uh
current TC members first, all the department heads, and at least one to two employees per department um as as we see fit. We're um the interviews already started and we also had the business administrator, town clerk, and the exiting assistant business
administrator. We wanted to catch him before he left. We figured in in an effort to get people while they're downtime. You know, during the holidays, there wasn't a whole lot of other business. So, we wanted to make sure that we didn't put them under pressure to start meeting with us because these are pretty long meetings. Some of them
have been minimum an hour and a half. Some have lasted, you know, almost three hours. So we we are trying to be as thorough as we can. Um we want to respect the employees um honesty and we want them to give us real perspective um critique and and you know be able to to
speak forthrightly in front of us and give them some privacy as well. So we will be sharing sort of communal results like this is what the general feeling is from the from uh across the the head department heads across the employees. I
think what we haven't decided yet, we'll have to discuss it with our with the attorney once he's once we start, you know, getting information from him. We were told that that was going to be a big step and before we actually u decide to hire Mr. Feifer, we figured we'd talk to the attorney and get a lot of our questions answered of what's allowed,
what's not allowed as far as publishing and things like that, what's what's safe um to maintain, you know, the honest responses. And the only reason why we weren't publishing the answers before, we don't really want people who we were interviewing to have so much time to think about it. um we absolutely want
follow-up questions and every single person that we've met with has been so generous with their time and they're willing to they they understand the public hasn't had a chance to give public um opinion on on questions and actually I I'm seeing two people in our attendee list who are on my uh on my
list to reach out to. But I realized we don't have each other's cell phone numbers. I meant to text both um Tom and Jay the other day um about some questions I had for you both um from the civic association research that you've already done. And as we mentioned when we all met with the uh folks who ran and
didn't win, we would like to have periodic meetings with groups like that because we do realize that people may not come in person. They're certainly if they're not coming to these meetings as often, we want to go to them as well and keep the dialogue open. We appreciate any, you know, assistance with with
opinions that you have about what questions you'd like asked for current TC, past TC, and the people that we've talked about from the past TC. I mean, it really we're we're going back to ask people from the 1985 until, you know, a couple years ago. We're trying to be
very thorough to catch people from both, you know, the Rs and the D's and make sure that we cover a wide wide variety of TC's that experienced different issues, you know, whether they experienced complete streets, they experienced um Hurricane Ida. So, we're going to try to
have a nice cross-section of people that that served, and then we we'll that's part of our phase one study. So, that's that's sort of the recap from the video that you didn't see yet. Tom, anything else that I'm missing, gentlemen? Doc, Dr. Khan, do you have anything to add?
>> Um, no. Let me just make sure because I wrote down a lot of notes, but both of you gave very comprehensive answers to I think all of them. Um, I did just want to add and reiterate that I I think there is value in not having the
questions be public. Um, in the interviews I've sat in on the, you know, you you get people's honest answers rather than they get the questions in advance and they sort of tell you what you they think you want to hear. Um, and you know, as Jonah said, everyone's been
more than happy to let us revisit if necessary. Um so I I don't think you know I certainly we haven't come up with the whole universe of questions that can possibly be asked but um we will be conducting a public outreach effort to
you know gather opinions from the public and see whether or not we should uh augment the questions that we have been asking and revisit the folks that we have interviewed. >> Okay. Uh does anyone else have from the public have a have their hand raised?
Jerry. >> Yes. >> Um I see Tom again. Uh do we want to let him back in or wait until second? >> Uh let's let's wait till the second uh the second uh period. Okay. >> You don't Oh, okay.
>> Is there anyone else from the public? >> It's just Tom. It's just Tom. So, we're we're a small group. I mean, we we started the dialogue last time. So >> uh why don't we why don't we wait until the end in case any of our business answers his questions and then and then
we can if there if there is a need to you know do again then we can >> right we did it on the second round I think we were able to answer a lot of things what Tom what you might have missed also just to catch you up is uh Jay brought up the point that perhaps we could have a little mini dialogue at the
end and that is what we did so perhaps I guess you're right Jerry if we Yeah, just in case our business answers whatever question he has >> and then we'll come back to everybody. >> All [clears throat] right. Resolutions ratifying and confirming resolution
25-004 authorizing the award of contract for legal services charter study commission attorney King Mach and Collins and um 25005 adopting charter study commission
meeting schedule. So um going back to ' 04 um we have um uh we have found um
um what you call it uh Michael Collins to uh represent us and um uh I don't I don't have the number in front of me. [snorts] Um
>> um yeah, this is 25004R. Um so I just wanted to add some context. Um so last time we adopted 25004. Um but it's my fault. I was away uh with my family, so I didn't get the notice actually published. So this is just to
ratify the resolution again to create the fresh 10-day publication schedule. Um so you know, we're doing this all correctly. Um the substance hasn't changed. it's still the same firm at the same rate. Um, and it's just purely procedural. But I did want to add because in the
intervening time period, um, based on Mr. Biller's suggestion from last meeting, um, whether we could get a discount if we go above the 45,000. So, um, Michael Collins did agree that if we do exceed that, uh, he's willing to lower the hourly rate to 175 per hour.
Um, so we'll be able to get that in. Um, and I I think that was very generous of him to lower that rate if we were to exceed the 45,000. Um, so I'd like to make two uh a motion to make a couple amendments to the resolution. Um, the
first is to uh just make a note after.3. Um, so right now it says that legal services will be provided at a blended hourly rate of 225 per hour, not to exceed without prior commission uh commission approval. And then um we can say something along the lines of a
blended hourly rate of $175 per hour will apply on uh after the 45,000 limit has been reached. Um and then also I wanted to add in the updated certification of funds. Um, so this
would read, um, I, Matthew Lar, chief financial officer of the township of Milbourne, do hereby certify that sufficient funds will be available in the 2026 municipal budget for Charter Study Commission Legal Services to be performed by King Mench and Collins LLP in an amount not to exceed $45,000.
Um, and Matthew uh, resent me that certification earlier today. So, I just wanted to amend the resolution with those two um, items. I will second your motion. >> Thank you.
>> All in favor? >> I >> I >> Good. And how about 25005 adopting charter stud? >> Well, before we have so now we have to adopt the motion as amended. So, uh I'll
make a motion to pass 25004 as amended. >> Okay. >> I will second that motion. All in favor? >> Uh, think we need a roll call vote. >> Oh, roll call. Okay. >> Um,
>> so Mr. Biller is absent. Uh, Dr. Kung votes yes. Uh, Miss Parker Lince >> votes yes. >> Uh, Mr. Chennaz absent. And Mr. Ducker, >> yes. >> Right. >> Uh, the motion passes.
>> Good. Now, uh 25005 adopting charter study commission meeting schedule. Um Jerry, do you have the ability to put that on um the site right now or
>> um it's so the dates should be in the publicly accessible agenda. So if they if uh the public goes onto the website and clicks the agenda, it should be page three, four, five, sorry, page six of
the packet. We'll have a list of all the meeting dates. >> Good. >> Um could I have a motion to accept the dates for the upcoming meetings at the Bower Center?
>> I'll make that motion >> and I will second the motion. Right. Roll call jury. >> All right. Uh, Mr. Billard absent. Dr. Kung votes yes. U, Miss Parker Lunt >> votes yes. >> Mr. Tennaz absent. And Mr. Ducker.
>> Yes. >> Motion passes. >> All right. Moving right along. Old business interviews and community outreach. Well, we we sort of went over that with
Tom. Um, should we should we go over it again? >> I guess we can. >> Do we clarify a little bit more? Do we I mean, is is this the time we kind of do we do we update um on on our general feelings of what what we're getting back from people?
I think we should wait till we have more more interviews and more more information to give to the public. What do you think, Dr. Khan and Joanna?
Um well I just I wanted to add I guess to update that Jordan and I sat down with uh Alex McDonald the business administrator um for sort of the first part of the interview. It >> we're nowhere near done. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> It was it was almost three hours. I mean
there there's so much to go over and there's so much knowledge that we have to gain and we're we are planning on you know going back in time and and and interviewing his predecessor as well and and we're trying to set up our next set of questions on things that may may have come up during these interviews that
allow us to ask more questions and of course every question that we have to start with leads to more questions as they give us their answers. So there's a lot to learn still, you know, on what we're going to ask the next set of I mean really the last BA would have been the one that's most important for us to
learn from as well since that's who trained Alex and came in at a major change in our structure of how things were done with TC members. >> Um >> and I I think just to further answer uh Tom's question from earlier um the
we are not recording these interviews. Um so we are taking notes. Um I I think the the thinking there is that when you record an interview people are less likely to speak honestly. They might think that it could be used against them
or you know in other capacities. So I think you know the note takingaking really also just allows us to you know stay in the moment and make sure we are asking any follow-up questions as necessary. Um I think in terms of you
know publishing memos or I don't know what the commission you know thinks about that. I think it it does make sense once phase one is complete to have some sort of summary um of what we have learned from the interviews and I I I
don't see why that shouldn't be made public. um you know other commissioners might have thoughts on that but I I do think that even just for us internally if we have to you know gather all of our thoughts as we you know wrap up one phase and then embark on the next phase
or you know it's not like phase one is sort of put to bed once we're done we can always revisit it and ask more questions as stuff comes up in phase two um so I I think that's you know that's sort of the thinking there it it I I do worry about putting as Mr.
said about putting out too much information before we finish wrapping up sort of the majority of the interviews. Um just so that we should at least have visited all of the interviewees once before we you know put anything >> Yes. out there.
>> Yes. And just so the folks out out there know, uh, the department heads, we spoke with each one of them and they lasted over an hour and [clears throat] a half. And uh we are we are taking big big time
notes and uh I want to summarize them and then we will have you know the public out outreach you know and and we will give a synopsis of you know each and every interview that that that
we have done you know and so as a group I just want to let you're not doing individual >> I just want to let the public know We are taking this extremely serious. We are spending teen amount of hours interviewing these people. So if anyone
out there thinks we are not doing our job, they are totally wrong. So um again we will have a we'll set a date for the uh community out outreach. >> Well community outreach I think we
should talk about. It's it's more than setting a date. it's just coming up with the agenda of you know places and I think we we started to tackle that at our last meeting. Um, so we we talked about putting it out there, making making this process accessible to people
and I think this week is tough because a lot of people are traveling. So the airwaves are a bit wasted. But what we want to make sure is that we can collect on on the website as we mentioned last last time we met that the questions we'll have we'll have the ability to have people put their questions
submissions in um and it'll be limited to specifically you know TC or or building department heads or past TC members and then phase two will be for the government. So, we'll we'll se section se section out how how we want the questions to come in so we don't get
random questions from people. Although, I'm sure we can sift through them. It's not like we're going to get 100 people giving opinions. Um, and I do think hopefully people will, you know, start showing up in person and giving their opinions on on things that, you know, that they want to give opinions on. We would like to use, you know, Google
groups. There's plenty of them out there in our town. We'd like to use um I'm a little worried about Happy Milbourne because it's not limited to Milbourne Short Hills residents. So between workbomb, newcomers, a thousand WhatsApp groups that people are connected to
through all the schools, through personal networks, um and just try to outreach, use like civic associations in town, any charities that we're connected to, maybe invite them to say, "Hey, community members, you know, we'd love to hear your opinions. These are the
this is the website. This is where you can click to put your questions through. This is where you click to see agendas. This is our website um for our past um meetings and things like that. So, and get that pushed out there hopefully by next week maybe as people return from
vacations and new year. Yeah, I I think this is a good opportunity to sort of get our get our website in order with, you know, FAQs in terms of >> I I think a lot of folks in town still are unclear as to what exactly our mandate is and what exactly we're studying. So, the the more information
out there, the better. Um, so I'm happy [clears throat] to work on that over the next week. I know I had said that at the prior meeting, but holiday travel notwithstanding, it's been really hard to get together. I know you and I have met, you know, but we spent so many hours interviewing and and again, we all
still have professional careers and and private lives and and a lot of charity work that we do. So, we will get our FAQs together. I am available this week as well, not traveling. So, I'm sure you and I could sit down and and finalize our FAQs that have been in our heads and that we've talked about verbally past couple of hours that we've spent on the
phone, you and I. So, let's we can do that, tackle that this weekend and make sure that it's up by the next uh next meeting. >> Perfect. All right. >> And I can I have the Google forms sort of ready to go. So I'll try to get that up sooner rather than later. Um you know
perfect being the enemy of the good. I think it's better to just get what we can peace meal correct up there and we can iterate as necessary. >> But I would also love to sit down with like I think we were talking about you know certainly representatives from the civic association um to meet with us to go over some of the things that we might
have floating in our heads and and the opinions will come in before our next meeting as well. So hopefully that will help shape maybe how the FAQ looks or you know go through some of the questions that we've been asking and you know and get some one-on-one time
>> especially since uh Jay and Tom are both on um >> yeah we'd love to interview Jay and Tom. [laughter] Well, um I I guess the I given their interest in the subject, I think it's it will be very productive for us to sit
down with them and, you know, discuss that um you know, outside of a regular meeting. >> Yes. So, we can only do that as two people. So, I vote Jerry, you and I do that since we're going to be working on the FAQ and and the I mean, I'm I'm going to be largely in charge of the outreach because I and and of course all
of us have our own networks, but I'm going to try to tackle, >> you know, when we post something, these are the like 15 places that we post the same information so it's easy to click and easy to just send. I understand sending in a WhatsApp group might be something different than what we might put in an email, but we'll have a
succinct version and a more long form as well. >> Yeah. And once we get all of that in order, I think we can more regularly send push notifications as to when our meetings are so that then people will actually actually know what meeting they're attending and what they can contribute. >> Hopefully like every Monday we can say,
"Hey, we invite you to this Tuesday or Thursday meeting or Sunday night." We can decide, you know, when when that is and it just becomes a regular roll out. >> I do wonder if we should um you know, we we have adopted the meeting schedule. Those are just our sort of regular business meetings. I wonder if it makes
sense and you know and certainly we can discuss this offline u given that two of the members are not present if we have a date perhaps even on a weekend um sort of like a community forum where people can come and actually have that dialogue um just because
>> yeah so something like that because you know a lot of people are commuting you know they have kids that they have to tend to late at night so you know if I just want to make sure we're covering all of our bases um So when the schedule was created, I tried to make sure we got all of the weekdays. Um, but you know,
certainly there are folks that can only attend on weekends. So just want to make sure we, you know, not not trying to exclude anyone. We want everyone to, you know, participate if they can. >> So maybe it makes sense for us to schedule like something at the library, just like a you know, [clears throat] if it's not a if it's not an actual
meeting, we can't more than two of us be there. So, you know, we I mean, we could also just notice it and, you know, have have it if we want all of us there. Um, we could do something like that as well. So, just just putting that out there. >> Okay.
>> Yeah, we could uh we could put that on a uh agenda for all of us to be there to um answer any and all questions from from the public. Yeah. I mean, >> we Let's think about the timeline of that. Like if it's going to be
something, do we do that once a month? Do we do it once every six weeks? Do we do it at the end of, you know, phase one or middle phase one then end of then middle of phase two then end of? So like >> Right. Right. Right. We we all can dis we all can discuss that at a at a later date, you know.
>> Or might Yeah. It might be something like we could have a a phase one wrapup presentation or something like that, right? So >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And then we should notice it because it'd be nice to have more of us there or at least more than two because if people have questions or different opinions, we can, you know, we can all
get asked that and people can have access to us in person. >> And we should also be cognizant of the fact that not everyone wants to come in person. So Zoom meetings are good for some people and especially since they get recorded and I don't know what technology we have in the Bower Center to record us.
>> Uh they do have the ability to uh you know have zoom in and and uh record us. Yes. Okay, fantastic. >> Yeah, >> we can thank Frank for procuring a second knee board. He's on the call. >> Oh, wow. Well, thank you, Frank. Second Monday. Yay. >> Um,
>> so are we done with hour two? And and is it time to question answer? >> It's time for the public comment. I I hope I don't have to read that again. [laughter] Dr. Khan, do I have to read this again?
>> Uh, I You're the chair. I I don't think you read it again. >> I'll read it again. Uh >> oh, you don't you don't have to. >> No, no, no. >> You already read it the first time. >> Let's let's just go to the public comments. Okay. >> All right. I'll just >> Somebody raise your hand.
>> I'll promote Tom to panelist. >> Okay. I think Tom has his mute button. >> Yeah, there we go. uh >> limits to my uh limits to my dexterity here too. [laughter] >> Get on
>> function of whatever. Um first of all, it's very clear you folks are doing a lot of work and I commend you for that. I mean just some of the interviews, all that time, you know, you're making me grateful I was not elected to the commission [laughter] because you're really uh you know, I
mean, just the idea of an hour and a half interview here and all of that. So, I'm very conscious of what that must mean, you know, uh whether you're working or you're retired like I am. So, I do commend you for that and and taking that seriously. I just want to go back. It was a little difficult for me because
in the middle of your responding to me, uh the Zoom went blank. I don't know what happened here, what end whats were affecting that. But, um uh so I'm, you know, if I'm slightly repetitious here, you'll have to forgive me, but that may be the reason. But what I want to focus
on is this question of public interviews. Now in Redbank they interviewed publicly uh former officials, the business administrator, uh sitting members of the governing body. Put those in a class for a second.
Forget employees and whatever. Uh I mean I think you should consider uh do doing some of those publicly. Those are not people who have to quote worry about what they say uh afraid that they'll lose their jobs. Behind all that
concern, I'm interested in the questions because I'm wondering what questions make people feel they may be vulnerable if they're candid as opposed to guarded in their answers and and other uh whether it's Hell or Redbank did publish
the list of questions. So we can I so I get the sense of you know this is not a criminal investigation where people are taking the fifth amendment because they don't want to answer a question that deals with their job. So I'm wondering what these questions are. So I think you should reconsidering publishing and I
know Chris you think that you have thought of every question uh that uh man can think or woman can think of. Uh I would suggest um you know that may not necessarily be be true because you you know people have different perspectives but just to stay on the public
interviews I think that would be very helpful and when you're interviewing township committee members or or people who have had or former business administrator you don't have to worry about that concern where you might uh as you do uh uh worry about employees not
being candid or worried about their jobs or not getting promoted or whatever and and other people have done that. So there is a precedent uh precedent for doing that. So I I really think that uh you know you ought not to be uh be worried about that and I don't really
see any reason uh other than u well I don't really see any reason why in a limited amount you wouldn't do that and in connection with that it would be interesting to know who you have interviewed so far. Is there a problem with saying this is what we've done? I mean, you gave some general description,
but is there uh you know, a list of this is what we've done so far and or or uh maybe you don't want to identify people you intend to interview if they're employees. I'm not so sure I agree with that, but that may be a thinking. But anyway, let's go back if I can get an
answer to the question of why you're not having any public interviews as other towns have done. >> Um I will can I answer that for a moment? Um, so what what the benefit that I found in in the way that we've just been dealing with it now is we get a lot of anecdotal stories in addition
to our questions. I don't think people will be as candid um discussing things publicly when telling us stories that will help inform, you know, some of the decisions going forward or at least our thought process and our learning. Right now we're in the really deep learning phase. So, I think we would love to, you
know, give everyone sort of general thoughts of like this is what everyone's advice is, but those anecdotal stories sometimes paint a slightly different picture. We're trying to get really, it's not investigative research where we're getting people in trouble, but people feel like they're getting in trouble when they're on camera. if
they're certainly from an employee standpoint. I would never want to put, you know, someone who works in the police department and as a police officer or sergeant where they feel like, oh gosh, now someone's going to see what I said. They didn't like what I said. Maybe I misspoke. It makes people
nervous. And I just feel like when we're dealing with this in person, it's just a much kinder, gentler way to be interviewed. I mean, one of the employees that we met with, Chris and I sat there and he's like, he's like, I'm sweating. I'm like, I'm so nervous. I don't know why. And we've known him for years. He's been an employee for of the
town for so long. Chris and I work with him personally for like the last 10 years on, you know, one event that we work on and Chris has been working with him for another gazillion years on Fourth of July committee. Yet, he was still nervous just by the interview process. You know, nobody wants to get their boss in trouble. Nobody wants to
get themselves in trouble. So we were able to get really good stories from like well when I joined and it was you know 20 some odd years ago and this is how it was back then under that business administrator or this and that. We've just been able to get candid stories and I don't know if it's going to help the
public make decisions when they go vote. But I do think it'll help us inform ourselves on maybe how nuanced to ask another question or how to make someone feel comfortable. And I think the gift that you know sometimes you bring to the
table is that informality of those questions and I and I I agree with you Tom. I think if we have a public set of questions that are asked perhaps it is just to the either the head and I think current TC people yeah I think it's we're trying to get honest opinions
to start with. So maybe there is a second set we can discuss that of like what can get asked later as follow-up questions like hey we have we're returning and the public want to see your real answers so it's not just in our notes and we can discuss that and I think you know personally I think I I
would love your opinion like to flesh this out a little more than just a back and forth and public comment but I feel like if Jay and I um if Jay you Jerry and I can sit down and I can you know ask we we can kind of have more of a chat about it just to see what the what the concept consequences would be and
what the why do we want those to be recorded or public and I would love to I'm probably going to want to see the recorded sessions from Redbank just to see how people answer versus how people have been answering us in in more private setting. >> Well, on the thought that we're doing this of dialogue and very briefly I
think they can make a distinction between employees and all the things you just said Joanna and what their concerns would be. I don't see uh and uh why that would be a concern for uh persons who are on the township committee now. why it would be concern for former members of township
committee. I'm talking about on the executive uh loosely termed executive things, former business administrator, former township committee members. I don't think that kind of concern of an employee is what's this going to mean to me and how were threaten you know so I think it can make a division between
those kind of for one of a better term I'll call executive employees or former employees or former officials who were elected former members of the township committee and we've got numbers of them living in town uh former mayors and whatever uh I think you could do that
publicly so that's would be my response to that I think you have to make a division between the kinds of people you're worried out they'll freeze up and that's why I think another reason why I think the questions that are being asked are worried because I'm re I'm interested in knowing what question and
I'm not arguing the point anymore about the employees I understand what your point of view is but what questions would be asked there that relate to the form of government you know this is not so much a a question of is uh or maybe it goes to the general question of what
is the most efficient form of government and the answer to that question relates somehow to how we whether or not we should change our form of government. The answers to some of the employees questions relate to having a township. >> Tom, let me Tom Tom Tom, let me uh uh um
interrupt you for a second. >> Sure. >> We have we have asked those questions. >> What do you mean? >> Uh former government. >> No, no. He he's making a different point though, I think. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Go ahead, Jo. Maybe you Well, okay. The
point >> I understand what you're getting at. I I I also understand where Tom's coming from. >> Yeah. What I'm saying is when you there are certain kinds of questions that that >> we have differentiated between departments and you know uh TC and you
know we we haven't uh interviewed yet um our former uh business administrator yet. We're still in the process of interviewing our current business administrator. So, >> but the questions that are asked of those people like you just said Chris
would be different from those >> correct. >> Oh, yeah. They are. They are. >> And so that we're not I suggest to you that you have no need and no fear on the part of the interviewe of those kinds of things for former public officials or if they are the business administrator. I
mean, these are the people who have run and are running our town and that's different from somebody in the recck department or some other department, you know. We're on the same Tom. We're on the same page as that. >> Well, that's why I'm suggesting to you and have suggested to you that you
publish questions because there are things about former uh administrators and so forth that you might be again the focus on the form of government like when you were mayor, why didn't you put a traffic light on such and such street? That has nothing to do with the form of government. You would ask that kind of
question to begin with. So that's what I'm suggesting to you and and that's why I think making those people public so we can see that as so I think I just wanted to make those points and I think you have to differentiate uh but when I don't know the questions that being
asked I'm thinking to myself what question is being asked to an employee that they're thinking about their job you know and uh uh and that somehow relates to the form of government as opposed to do you think a supervisor is doing a good job in in managing ing the
uh the municipality funds that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the form of government. This is not an investigation of oh do we have a a government that is >> I'll make this up corrupt for example some hypothetical that's just my point I
don't want to belabor it uh at this hour but that I think is important for you to you consider and as I said you can see where other towns have if you look at the charter study commission report from Hell and Redbank and Mr. Collins who I
commend your hiring. Um he was the council for uh Redbank and he participated in this and I think he will be able to give you a broader perspective whether you go agree with them or not. It's another question on these issues and so I think you're making a good step. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> That's it Tom. Thank thank you very much and um >> everything you've said we will take under advisement and going forward. Um
we will have a public session for um questions that we will be able to answer. >> Uh Joanna, do you have something to say? >> Yeah, I was just going to answer the part one uh when Tom mentioned that you were black you had blacked out screens.
So it might be a redundant question. You may not have heard me the first time when I was rambling on. So the one thing I was saying is that you know we I suggested for Jerry, myself, you and Jay Morali to get together um to go to have a more comprehensive discussion about
some of these points because we wanted to get your opinions you know since you've done a lot of research for the civic association that you belong to um that we would love to just go go in into a bit more of the minutia and obviously we can't do it as a group of three with
you know or any more than the two of us um without it being a public session. So, we'd love to get some more of your opinions and just pick your brains. So, I was suggesting a little J Morali and Tom Hildner informal interview, not recorded, not not for the public. >> All right. Well, thank you for listening to me.
>> So, Dr. Khan, do you have Dr. Khan, you have anything else to uh add here? >> Um, I did not. Um but I do so um I I don't know if it's a a matter of questions
making people feel vulnerable or not. Um I think it's just there [laughter] I I do I do feel there is value to have you know not necessarily all of the maybe some of the interviews can be public and you know as Jonah said
we can discuss more with Tom and Jay offline. Um, but I I do think for the bulk of the interviews it makes sense and people do feel, you know, much more open and honest and willing to, you know, dive into those tangents that I I think are very informative during those
interviews. Um, so I I don't know, you know, it's not that we're, you know, as Tom was trying to say, it's not we're not conducting a criminal investigation here. We're we're just trying to learn as much as we can about our current form of government and informing any potential recommendations. Um, so, you
know, I I guess that's just a long way of saying I [clears throat] don't think the questions are, you know, trying to, you know, unearth criminal activity or anything, right? That we're just we're we're trying to learn here. Um, and certainly we're happy to sit down with
Tom and Jay to, you know, identify more questions that they think would be helpful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. All right. Um, does anyone else from the public have a comment? >> I do not see any hands raised.
>> All right. Um, with that, um, I think we're I think it's a wrap. Does somebody want to uh >> Um, >> oh, uh, let me just add, um, so, uh, I communicated with Mike Collins. He'll be
at our next meeting. Um, we will also, um, anticipate all of the commissioners being present and that's going to be Thursday, January 8th at 7 p.m. Um, and also over Zoom. >> Excellent. Excellent. It's It's going to
be good to have everyone back from uh their holiday vacations and everything like that. So, >> so that's going to be a very very interesting and important meeting for us, you know. And uh with that, does somebody want to make a motion to uh
adjourn this meeting? >> I will make the motion to adjurnn. >> Do we have a second chair? All in favor? I >> I thank Thank you everyone. Thank you. Next meeting.