Hey Chris, how you doing? Hey Corey, >> how are you? >> Good, good, good. Hey Shanook, welcome back. >> Hello everyone. Michael and Hey folks got dressed up.
You guys got dressed up for us. >> That's our job. >> You didn't You didn't have to. >> Next time we'll know. >> Um it's 7 o'clock. Let's wait a minute um
for some other folks to join. Oh, there's Sha. Joanna is notoriously late. Oh, speaking of Joanna, there she is. Can everyone hear me?
>> Yep. Yep. >> Joanna, hi. All right. Um, okay. Um, good evening everyone. Welcome to the January 8, 2026 meeting of the Milbourne Township Charter Study
Commission, which is called to order in accordance with section five of the Open Public Meeting Act, chapter 231, Public Laws 1975. uh be advised that this notice of this meeting was made by posting on the bulletin board and town hall and
forwarding to the official designated newspapers the that this meeting would take place on Zoom at 7 p.m. on Thursday, January 8, 2026. Meeting details and draft and and the draft agenda
have been posted. I kindly ask everyone, you don't have to stand for uh the pledge of allegiance. Let's say the pledge of allegiance, please. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, >> to the republic for which it stands, one
nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> I just I just I just face Frank's flag. Good. Um, I will now I will now call a Frank roll call vote. >> What?
>> Nothing. Never mind. I'll tell you later. >> I will now I will now call a roll call vote to to note those present. Uh, Jerry, please. >> Mr. Biller. >> Yep. >> Dr. Kong is present. Miss Parker Lent, >> present.
>> Mr. Tan, >> present. Mr. Ducker >> here. >> All right. Uh, the record will show that we have a quorum for this meeting. Uh, >> Chris, before we get to that, I I realized just before the meeting that
the draft agenda wasn't posted to the website for whatever reason. Um, so let me just post the draft agenda now. Um, before we uh All right.
All right. So essentially it's very similar to the agenda from the last meeting. No resolutions. Um the only change is the introduction of legal counsel after the approval of the agenda. >> Okay. >> Um so yeah, you can you can ask for a
motion to approve. >> Yeah, I I read the agenda. >> It's it's supposed to be posted on the township website, but for whatever reason it's not there. I checked before the meeting. Um, so >> Gotcha. >> that just putting it out there for the public.
>> Right. May I have a motion to approve the agenda? >> Good. Second. All those second. >> Second. >> All right. All those in favor? >> I I
Good. Good. Um, may I have a motion to approve the December 30, 2025 meeting minutes? >> Good. Second, >> I'll second. >> All right. All in fa All those in favor? >> I'm abstaining because I wasn't there.
>> Okay. >> All right. Um, reports. Are there any commissioners with with reports since our last meeting? >> Um, I did want to report that I was at the TC meeting on Tuesday. Um, and if
folks weren't able to watch it, I would recommend because there was a um some consternation with the selection of the mayor, which is, you know, something that we're studying is how the mayor ought to be selected. Uh this year there was I think for the first time and according to our municipal attorney um
the first time he's seen it at least there was multiple rounds of voting to determine the mayor. Um so if you if you would like to watch the recording it starts at minute 18 in the recording and it goes on for
another 20 or so minutes. Um so I won't bore you with all the details but >> Jerry Jerry I watched it and and I agree. I had the same thought when I was watching it that this is it might be instructive for people on our committee to watch it. >> Yeah. >> Or informative
>> informative. Uh uh Corey and Jerry, I I also watched it on um you know YouTube and everything and uh it was an embarrassment you know. So it was uh
>> it it it's it's something that we will address in our in our policy meetings, you know. So uh yes. Um are there any other reports?
Uh I would like to say that um is it is it time for me to uh announce that we hired uh uh Michael Collins as our attorney or should should I wait? >> Well, you just did it.
>> I know that's true. I >> think I'm here. >> That's the introduction, right? So, we're we're introducing we we already talked about him being hired last week and the week before. So, it's introduction time, >> right? So, uh um Michael Collins is is
here from uh >> Mish and Collins and Suzanne. Suzanne, how do you say your name? Your last name. >> You were on the right track there, Chris. Seasco. >> Ah, there there it is. That's that's right.
Okay. So, um you know what, M Michael, why don't why don't you guys in introduce yourselves? >> Yeah, certainly if you don't mind. Thank you, chairman, and good evening to everyone. I'm Mike Collins. I appreciate the uh your your confidence in our firm and retaining us over the past couple of
meetings that you had. Um as you mentioned, I'm joined here with Suzanne Sevasco, my colleague, and uh we're very excited about the opportunity to be representing the Charter Study Commission. Um, our law firm, uh, specializes in municipal law and we represent municipalities all across the
state. Just to give you a little background about myself, um, I actually Suzanne and I clerked together for the same appellet judge, uh, sad to say, about a dozen years ago and, uh, we more recently reconnected and she joined us at our firm, which I'm excited about.
But uh between then and now I served in the governor's office as an assistant counsel and then subsequent to that entered private practice uh at Archer and Grryer and then most recently uh the firm that is now King mentioned Collins. Um through our practice at the firm uh I mentioned we do a lot of municipal law
but specifically um I've had the opportunity of representing two different charter study commissions over the past few years. Um one being the Redbank Charter Study Commission and the other being the Bradley Beach Charter Study Commission. So, I'm certainly familiar with uh the task that you have
at hand as charter study commissioners and uh definitely excited to represent you and to uh assist you through the process over the next few months. Uh Suzanne and I look forward to uh getting to work with uh the commissioners a little further now that we're formally
retained to uh help go over, you know, what your what your goals are uh over the next few months and following the process that the Faulner Act outlines and uh you know, if you have any questions for us, we're certainly happy to answer them. But otherwise, we're
just uh grateful for this opportunity. >> Thank you, Michael. Uh, does any of the commissions have commissioners have any uh questions for Michael or Suzanne? >> Um, if if this is the appropriate time, I'm not sure uh if if this is when we
start asking our own commissioner questions. Um, I know Jerry and I were talking a bit about the document that's entitled on our website that's entitled Change in New Jersey Municipal Organization. It's a June 20 uh 2006
um directive for you know the work of the charter study commission and it it sort of goes through very detailed um uh like it gives us a skeleton and a framework of how to deal with phase one,
phase two and phase three. So this is what we have been following and we all all five of us tend to like this format. So we just wanted to get your opinion or I wanted to get your opinion on what you think about this document and this seemed to be the way that the red bank study followed phase one, phase two and
phase three. So are there opinions that you have? Is this the right, you know, course of action because we obviously started on this? Are we doing the right thing in in your opinion? >> Sure. Uh so I'm certainly familiar with the document and I believe it was put out by Ruters and uh
>> it was it Ruter Center for Government Services. >> Yes. Believe it or not, I guess the document's 20 years old, but the Faulner Act really hasn't changed from the 1950s in in any meaningful way. So, I think the document still has a lot of relevance. Uh the other commissions that I represented did uh tend to hue to the
one two threephase approach. So, I do think that the first line of inquiry is evaluating, you know, your current form of government. You know, presumably some deficiencies were identified that led to the formation of the commission. uh trying to gather the facts that uh
surround those issues, then transitioning to a phase two of evaluating the different forms that are available to you under the Faulner Act, and then ultimately heading towards phase three, which is trying to uh reach a consensus on a on a on a recommendation uh which if it's a change
in government would be a recommendation to a different form under the Faulner Act. And at that point, I would be working with you to help draft a final report uh that would ultimately be adopted by this commission and it would contain a question that would be placed on the ballot uh for voters to consider
and approve. >> Right. I just wanted to make sure that we're keeping ourselves, you know, very honest and making sure that we're following the format. We we all, you know, five of us agreed when we read it that this was how we wanted to conduct ourselves and we did feel like, you know, this was another we looked at the
Redbank Charter Study Commission, you know, process and we thought, well, there's was a different reason and and there was more, you know, contentious debate and there was a different format to how they published certain things with interviews and such. So, I think,
you know, we we I don't know when the time is to kind of ask you also, do you think we're conducting our interviews correctly? I mean, is it is it appropriate for us to go through our questions with you at some point? Even if it's the two of us as per the Faulner Act rules, you know, you know, perhaps having a separate Zoom with just the two
of us to say, "Hey, let's let's go over this to make sure we're not we're not underthinking, overthinking, you know, we would love to start relying on your expertise in your brain." >> Yeah, we're we're happy to serve in that role. And you know, I do think that there is probably some benefit to having
some conversations between meetings if if the commission selects a pair of commissioners to confer with us just to make sure that you know between meetings you're structuring the agenda for the upcoming meeting the way you want it to to proceed. uh if that involves uh
obtaining different witnesses that you'd like to appear at a particular meeting, dealing with making sure that they're scheduled and available for that meeting and you know perhaps organizing the meetings by different category. Uh you might have you know a particular topic whether it's the the current form of
government or looking at the other forms of government and making sure that the speakers line up with that. So, you know, we're happy to assist you and and provide you with some insight having done this a couple of times. >> That would be great. Um, I think that each of the commissioners has a couple
of different jobs. Some of us are are doing interviews right now. Others are going to be tasked with looking at the different forms of government. In phase two, all of us are participating in in looking at the research and the data as we compile it and share it with each other. And our secretary has been working very diligently in disseminating
that information. Um, so I wonder if you know perhaps to structure the the next meetings. I think our secretary is probably best suited to figure out with you whether you know our format is correct and our agendas are correct and perhaps like come up with a timeline of
when witnesses when you think witnesses should should be coming in based on the current research that we've we've done already. And we've all acknowledged in past meetings that the questions that we've asked the current TC and our uh department heads and things like that are all open to going back if we've
missed any questions, you know, that you feel like, hey, you know, these questions might might benefit you in the future to go back to these folks and also to ask the past TC members. So, it might be nice to structure, you know, that next meeting as well. And Chris
Ducker, Jerry and I have been conducting the interviews so far. And then our other commissioners >> in pairs. >> H >> in pairs. Not >> in pairs. Correct. In pairs, right? Ever. >> Never shall the three of us will be seen in public together >> for the next nine months. But no, in
pairs. So we've, you know, but we're dividing and conquering and then sharing with the group as the materials get, you know, edited into a true format to share and learn from. Um our next phase of this phase one will be to go to the past TC folks and ask their questions. So
maybe before we go to our past TC members, it would behoove us to have you look at our questions and and see if we're missing anything or give us some guidance if you think that, you know, there's too much or it's extraneous and that would be great. >> Absolutely.
>> And we also started to meet with focus groups. Um we had our first first focus group meeting today. We're looking to uh we we're waiting to hear back from the Short Hills Association to see when they could meet with us as well. um with two of us um because we want to do another focus group and anyone who's got uh
associations or groups of folks who are interested in this process and can't make the Zoom or feel like this format is much more much less dialogue and more of us talking as panelists and the public forum is not enough to answer your questions. We'd love to, you know, come up with groups of two and we'll
report back to our committee. Our focus groups are, I think, a good way for for us to learn from the public as well. >> Okay. >> Yes. And thank thank you, Joanna. And just to let everyone know, Jerry and I had a uh had a had a meeting with Michael and Suzanne today. And uh one
thing that um uh I took out is that um you know, we as Joanna just said, we have to reach out to the uh to the public here in MI in Milbour Township and get more folks involved. and Michael and Suzanne will definitely help us um
on phase three also in in writing our u policy. And so it is uh we're going to lean on Michael and Suzanne go going forward if if if they don't mind, you know, >> that's what that's what we're here for.
>> Good. Good. Um any other any other reports? Anyone else want to say anything? Okay. Um, public comment. To speak during the public comment period, please follow
these instructions and ensure your Zoom display uh display your name uh shows your first and last name. Click the raised hand button. You will be called upon in order and and promoted uh to the panelists. Please turn on your video
when when called to speak. clearly state your full name and whether you are a Milbourne resident or a business owner to facilitate an orderly meeting and and permit it all to be heard. Please limit your comments to three minutes. A reminder that the public comment period
is an opportunity for residents to share their views with the commission. Commissioners will not respond to your questions or engage in dialogue during your speaking time, but will carefully consider all comments at the end of the public comment period. Questions and
discussion may be addressed at the chair's dis discretion. All right, Jerry, do you see anybody? >> Yeah. Uh, Charu Goell, let me promote her. >> Okay.
>> Good evening. Good evening everyone. This is Sheru Goyel and today I am speaking on behalf of the shorts association. Firstly, thank you for the time and effort you are investing in this process. I commend and appreciate the updates provided thus far. Um and I
would like to offer a few suggestions um on behalf of the board recommendations and and some concerns which is you know intended to improve transparency, process rigor and and a bit better public access. Uh I know we you know you
mentioned Jerry that you've just posted the agenda uh right after the meeting and um you know I have been looking for the agenda from past couple of days this morning 1:00 2:00 I you know I was at work and you know I I work at the
trading portfolio I have a I have a trading portfolio to manage but still I you know I was trying to put in my time to see the agenda but couldn't find it. Thank you for acknowledging, but I would just like to suggest that meeting agendas be provided at least a couple of days in advance similar to the practice
followed by the township committee, zoning board, and other committees. This would really help ensure the public is informed and better prepared to participate and ask meaningful questions. Second, would the commission consider sharing ahead of time um the
individuals being interviewed? Um this would help the public better understand the breadth and balance of perspectives being considered. Third, would the commission clarify how it is ensuring consistency and objectivity across interviews? Are there any standardized
questions being used? What documentation practices or internal validation methods are in place to ensure themes are applied appropriately? related to that, how is the commission ensuring that anecdotal feedback which I I did listen
to the past recordings and I and I heard about anecdotal um discussions that are being uh taking place in the interviews. So how is that anecdotal feedback while valuable does not disappro disproportionately influence findings
and that conclusions are grounded in balanced representative input rather than isolated experiences. Fourth, I would recommend that the commission consider sharing highlevel nonattributable themes or directional insights at regular intervals prior to
the release of the final report. This would enhance public understanding and encourage engagement throughout the process rather than only at the end. Um and also while fifth while interviews are being conducted by two individuals
uh to support transparency what mechanisms is the commission using to ensure accuracy when information is shared with the remaining accur accuracy is there when information is shared with the remaining group of commissioners. And finally in Red Bank when they were
doing this charter study commission process public interviews were held with elected township committee officials both current and foreign for former. Is the commission considering holding public interviews with elected officials in a township as well? >> Thank you.
>> Thank you Sher. Thank you very much. Um Jerry, is there anyone else? >> Yep. Uh we have uh Frank Hello. Can you all hear me? >> Yeah, it's a little but
>> you're a little low, but >> sorry about that. Uh, so I just want to thank the commission for all of the tremendous work they've been doing. Uh, I think it's fantastic, uh, how you guys have really taken the bull by the horns. you're having weekly meetings. Um I know
that you guys interviewed me and other TC members. So I really commend you on taking this job seriously and um you know really working expediently to try and get all the information necessary. Um one comment I had uh it seems that there are some individuals that have
come before this board and made public comment purporting to be representatives of you know uh various civic organizations. Um one such in particular is a short hills association. Now, I personally am a member of the Short Hills Association. Um, and I am a little
confused as to how the three individuals that have come before this board, uh, claiming to be representatives of that association, uh, got that privilege because, as far as I know, I I actually called two different Short Hills Association board members. They were
unaware of there being any official designation of any individuals from the Short Hills Association that were authorized to represent the Short Hills Association. So, um, my advice to the board is if you have a civic organization coming forward claiming to speak on behalf of an organization,
perhaps you should verify that that is actually true and request the bylaws to find out if they are, you know, indeed um, able to speak on behalf of the organization. Other than that, I just want to commend you all for your work. Um, I was very pleased with uh the
interviews that you guys did. I thought they were very thorough. Uh, and I look forward to making myself available for any further interviews um or questions or I'm also happy to do any sort of public testimony that you guys might want in the future. So, thank you all.
>> Thank you, Frank. We have Jeffrey Feld. >> Okay. >> Right. >> Hey, Seth. >> First of all, happy new year for everyone because I was in Seattle at your last meeting. First, I want to
welcome our two attorneys and I want to thank you for your representations of the community in the round four coalition litigation. I really want to thank you for the work that you've been doing on that. Um, I am a member of the Short Hill Civic Association. I'm not on
the board. Um, prior this afternoon, I watched the recording of I think the December 30th meeting. Um, I would ask our attorneys to not tonight, but at some point to look at the comments from attorney Tom Thomas um, Hildner and
certain the questions he had because as to access of certain questions whether the public when the public can know the questions that are being asked to these interviews. Um because there's a little concern as c certain people not being the city employees but let's say elected
public officials or senior administration people like the BA whether those interviews in your other communities were a public subject to a public meeting or were they done in closed sessions. That was one of the I think there was several questions that
you might want to give guidance to the board cuz they were um that's how I interpreted the last meeting that there were questions that they were going to seek guidance from uh from you maybe not tonight but by the next meeting. Um also if it's possible can you maybe share the
Bradley Beach um report that you did with the public and put it on the public website so we have an understanding how we can compare Bradley Beach to what it like Milbour size you know what was your f ultimate recommendations
I too attended Tuesday's night's meeting yes it was an embarrassment I would also recommend the board to keep an eye on what's happening in homeale homeale did not pass uh I guess their final charter but in the last two or three days
their um public forums there's a cartoon coming out I think it's Homedale Corin about how you think our meeting was disrespectful they said it was a zoo in Homeell and this is one I think as an
exhibit when you make your recommendations whether or not to have an elected mayor you could say these are examples that one we've witnessed in Milbour on you know January you know I don't know what you're showing or t clock and
I think that's really it is that again and thank you for your service and just to look at the questions that Tom Hner asked at the last meeting and maybe giving guidance as to whether witnesses or questions could be shared with the public again thank you for your service
>> thank you Jeff >> we have Jay Mari next. >> All right. >> Hi, Jay Morelli Township. >> Hi, Jay. >> Hey, Chris. Uh, Michael Collins, good to see you. Uh, pleasure. And uh I just
want to say thank you for all the help uh that uh you've provided me and others uh over the past couple of years in the effort to uh get this charter commission form. So thank you. Uh, I'd like to respond first to the
allegations from our mayor that anything improper happened as part of the Short Hills Association. Uh, at our December meeting, uh, we discussed and, uh, appointed
several committees as, uh, is recognized and and called for in our bylaws. Uh we have a membership committee, we have a nomination committee, and we um opted to
form a uh charter study committee to help uh inform um our members of the happenings within the charter study commission. uh that uh committee was voted in
unanimously by all members that were present at that meeting. I'm not sure which members Mayor Sakamandi is referring to um but if he uh had taken the time to reach out
to any one of the people that attended that meeting uh or if he would have spoken with the people and asked those individuals if they received a summary within a day or two after the meeting announcing the formation of all of our
committees for 2026. So it troubles me that the mayor recently appointed of town in one of his first actions has chosen to cast dispersions on the process used
within the Short Hills Association, an association that was founded in 1911. So if there are any further questions, please direct them to me as I am the president. Thank you and good luck with
your process. Thank you, Jay. Jerry, is there anyone else? >> Uh, I do not see any more hands raised. >> Oh, great. I now close the first public
comment period. Are there any comments from the commission regarding any comments made by the public? >> I do uh I do have a few comments if if if I may. Um, regarding the suggestion that we list individuals being
interviewed, uh, the topic has come up before and I generally generally am of the opinion unless there's some legal obligation to disclose it at least at this point and maybe we'll disclose it after the report is issued and it's part
of an appendix or something and I still want to think about that. I'd rather keep the names of those who we are actually interviewing confidential to so that we can help ensure that we're getting the most uh straightforward um fruitful answers from people without
fear of any um sort of negative attribution to them. I have no problem if we which we generally kind of have already outline the roles or the general um groupings of people that we are going
to interview sort of have we we've said that we're going to interview current and former elected officials current and former uh township officials uh civic association people things like that I I don't have a problem with but at this point un like I said unless they're legally required I'd prefer not to
disclose names protect that confidentiality to the greatest extent possible. It's my experience that when you're doing investigative interviews of of like a similar nature of that we're doing is that you're going to get the most robust answers if people are confident that their name's not going to
be specifically attributed to to an answer. Um, with regard to the concern about valid representative authorization for different civic associations within town, I take the comments um,
you know, I I take it under advisement. On the one hand, I understand the point. On the other hand, I don't even necessarily care where the comments or what civic association are making comments and things. I I sort of take those comments almost as if they're attributable to
anyone in the community and they're informative of sort of how we might approach things whether they come from something like the Short Hills Association or the South Mountain Civic Association or Happy Milbourne or or any other organization. So I take it as informative generally without any
necessarily attribution to any specific organization. So I'm not sure whether the uh authority to speak on that organization I sort of ignore the fact of of where it's coming from. So I don't necessarily worry about whether they had authority to speak on behalf of the organization. Um and um the Homeell the
suggestion to watch Homeell um I don't know whether they're committee their government their township committee meetings. Uh I actually have been because quite frankly they've been going viral on how ridiculous those meetings are. Um, you know, they're entertaining.
I'm not sure whether they they inform us um very much more. But, uh, you know, it's it's one of those things where it could always be worse. If you want to say it can always be worse, just just go watch one of their meetings. They're they're they're quite interesting. >> I I will say in full disclosure, I
happen to be the township attorney at Homeell, so I guess I'm just at the center the circuses that you referenced. Um, yes, Corey. Um, we we all agree with Corey.
We when when we first uh before uh we uh we were you know took took the oath and everything like that, we made a decision to um have everyone that we are interviewing
um you know we're not going to make it official because we wanted to have a honest dialogue and the information that we are getting is simply incredible people are extremely honest
people uh that we have interviewed in the township whether it be town hall or the different departments we have a very very dedicated group of people here in
mil in Milbour Township and um I think uh Joanna Parker Lens and uh uh Dr. Jerry reached out to folks and if they want to meet individually with with them, uh, they they they can. And if
anyone in the public has a question that they want us to ask individuals or TC members or former TC members, please, you know, let let us know. But I am not we are not excuse me we are not going to
publish the um the questions when we're not going to publish the questions and we are not going to publish right now what our findings are that's just not going to happen and that's the way we are doing it. Um does does anyone any
other commission commission has some something to say? Well, I I I might ask Michael at this point, you know, what what I mean, do you have an opinion on publishing versus now? Of course, we will publish those questions. Um, we're hoping to get the honest answers at this
point and at the end of phase one, these these things will become, you know, publishable to some degree, right? We're going to have summaries from everybody. But what's your opinion on I mean obviously if we're sitting here recording people um it's a very different interview if you're recording
whether it's current or past. I think past people have even less of a reason to talk to us because if they don't live here it's kind of a favor to say hi can you get on the Zoom with me for an hour and a half with my colleague from the you know fellow commissioner to answer questions. Um people don't want to be
reached out to if they say the wrong thing and it's recorded. I mean, it's just I I I wouldn't if if I didn't have a good experience on TC, I might not say yes. But if you know Chris or me or anyone who's interviewing you and you say, "Hey, will you get on the phone with me and yeah, you might live in, I
don't know, California, Colorado, wherever you are. Will you talk to me about your experience as a TC member, as a mayor, as a deputy mayor, as somebody and give me your honest opinions on, you know, what the forms of government, you know, looking like for you and how did
it feel, partisan, nonpartisan, etc. Is there is there a basis for a recording, b pre-publishing, sending these before? I don't know. I mean, we're not the experts. >> Yeah. So, uh, a lot of good questions or or thoughts there, uh, as it pertains to
municipal employees in in both Redbank and Bradley Beach. There was an agreement between the charter commission and the municipal attorney that the interviews would be conducted on a an anonymous basis uh, with two or one charter commissioners, not on camera,
not at a legal meeting. And I think that's appropriate because they obviously have um you know legally protected rights in some instances and you know they're they're current employees and if you want to get candid feedback from them that's the only way to even attempt to do so just given the
circumstances. I think the inquiry is slightly different I would say for uh potentially for elected officials or for your your very high ranking folks in town perhaps your administrator. Um, and so that's where the commission would have some discretion on whether you want
to uh bring folks in for public interviews in addition to the the good work you're doing in private. And in terms of the work in private and reporting it out, uh, I would suggest that, you know, especially if you're trying to do things in phases, that at some point uh, whatever work is going to
be done in in private exclusively, that the commission members who did that work report it out to the public so that that can be disseminated. And then the minutes of that meeting where it's reported out can then be relied upon when you're preparing your final report in phase three. And you know, you can
memorialize the different findings because those would obviously help support whatever conclusion you ultimately reach. and as it pertained to the employees to kind of protect that anonymity and and and Redbank and and Bradley Beach uh there was never any direct citation to any particular person
and there was it was really more of a summation of just general senses that they got regarding you know the different um and I I I don't want to say anything because it's going to you know could could lend itself one way or the other but different things that people as a as a as a trend that could be
picked up from interviewing multiple people. >> Yes, I feel like there were Thank you so much for that. There there were definitely trends that we picked up. So, I think it's much more clear with the employees and and the privacy and and you know, and we do have the trends.
Those are exactly what we were going for um with regard to the private versus public interviews. So, I kind of like a bit of what you touched on is while we're doing this private work, it's it's informing us to see what's really relevant, you know, and I think that to have a two-hour recorded session perhaps
may not be relevant to the general public, right? So, if we get to the meat of it, perhaps it's a phase one and phase two for us, too. It's like, hey, okay, elected official, we've interviewed you once, you said we can come back to you. Can we ask you the most relevant questions that are literally pertaining to the forms of government and record you saying that?
Is there is there you know val validity to something like that? >> When when you say recording, are you thinking about a separate conversation that you just play back here or having those individuals come to a meeting such as this? >> There were people who were saying they'd like to see, you know, the more public officials in a public forum. So, do we
invite the 5TC folks to a, you know, we're talking about having maybe a monthly um group meet with the public and inviting people like a panel of speakers. So maybe there's a chance to say, "Hey, this is what we're thinking." They've now had a chance to digest those
questions and there could be a summary almost like there like a live summary. Is there is there some validity to bringing out in public those folks who we interviewed, you know, and and bringing out the most important questions, the relevant ones that will inform the public? >> Yeah, that it's certainly up to the
commission's discretion how you want to go about, you know, your calendar. I think to the suggestion earlier, I'll be probably reaching out to your secretary after tonight's meeting to kind of drill down on what exactly you're looking to do. But generally speaking, you know, if there's a class of individuals that the
commission wants to um interview, the one thing I would suggest is uh consistent with the one public comment you heard, uh you know, create just a classification of individuals that you're looking to invite and that anyone who falls into that classification is
invited because I'm sure as a commission, you're not looking to pick particular people, whether it's a particular party or a particular um position on this review. and just to give everyone an opportunity if they're interested to come in public and share their views to do so. Obviously, you
guys don't have subpoena power. You're not dragging anyone in here involuntarily, but you know, casting a wide net um and giving those folks that are interested in coming in an opportunity to do so. It's great. Anyone else?
>> All right. Um old business um interviews I guess we were already discussing interviews. Um, right. I mean, I know I mean it's it's fine. I think the discussion is good. Um, you know, I I
certainly agree. I think, you know, on once once we get closer to the end of phase one, um, I think it's definitely a good idea for us to publish our findings and make those public. Um
just so that you know as Michael said that'll help us with phase three and also give the public confidence as to what we've you know spent our time doing through these interviews. >> Yes, I total I totally agree with that. And just so everyone knows we're kneede
into uh phase one, you know, so we we aren't even close to um finishing phase one, you know. So, um, old business, uh, Joanna, can you address this, please? Uh, community out outreach I know you
have with, you know, >> Yes. >> work moms and and and and other groups. >> Yes. So, we we uh are nearly done with the FAQ. I think it's looking really fabulous. And I think by the end of this evening hopefully um I don't know who
has responded back to you Jerry yet but hopefully by tonight um Corey Shinook and Chris I'm sure you've looked at it if you guys can take a look at the FAQ um what I would my dream was the FAQ goes onto our website but I also get you
know uh send out the FAQ along with our next Zoom this week I reminded people um this evening like hey in an hour we're having this commission study so um you know Please log on if you can, but it'd be nice to inform them to know what they're logging on to because I know that, you know, during some of the door
knockocking, people thought this was a charter school study and um it's not. So, so the FAQ will hopefully help solve that. It'll be great to send it out to the collective networks that we all are a part of. I have about 200 people to send it to just in the in the list
serves. There are many many WhatsApps that we are all a part of. So, um, we can maybe take the FAQ into a short format of like if you, um, if you'd like to learn more about the the charter study. This is the three three short
points. Here's our website. Here's the next Zoom. Come learn about it. And I think we should all send it to our own individual networks. I know for me, for my charitable things, I have about 250 people that sit on my, you know, on my list that are in town where I stalk them about October Fest or the rumage sale or whatever other charitable things that
I'm a part of. So that's a separate grouping. Um I just wanted to make sure we set that as a comprehensive like here this is where our FQ is. Here's our next Zoom. So I think for next week we can do that. This week work moms and newcomers were invited a bit last minute. But I think the idea that we were going to
have each of us maybe stop by town hall and make the announcement. So the people who watch those which is much more watched than we are tonight or you know I'm assuming in retrospect people are not watching our videos as as much as they are the TC meetings. So, if we have somebody announced that, hey, there's
the charter study commission group meeting that's happening for the next x amount of, you know, months and please log in and send us your questions. And anyone who is a a larger group or even a small group, the focus groups that we're meeting with, you know, they don't have to be related to a civic association to
Corey Biller's point, everyone who's a resident is a member, you know, who's going to potentially care and we want to hear from you. So, we're, you know, we'd love to, like I said, you know, we were reaching out to, we'd love to sit down with Jay and Tom and Cheru, who were the designated members to sit down with us
and pose the questions that you guys want. We'll go through our questions that we have. Um, we ask that if you guys can think about the the people that we are um could interview. we'll send you our list of who we would like to interview from the past um TC members and that way we can make sure it's as
comprehensive as you know the township residents would like us to be u more than just what's in our own brains you know >> thank you Joanna um anyone else >> um as part of community outreach I think
it's come up in this forum before um but I'm happy to make announcements at TC meetings um since I go to all of them anyway um So if if you all are okay with that, I'm I'm happy to, you know, using my public comment as a citizen, I will,
you know, make advertisements for the charter study commission meetings. >> Chris, do you know Chris, do you know who the who would be the secretary or the person to distribute information for the South Mountain Civic Association? >> Um,
well, Sarah moved, so >> yeah. Well, that's so that that's kind of why I asked the question, but it is a good list serve of people and it is very relevant and and apppropo for that organization. And so if we ask them to distribute it to their list serve that that would >> I mean I I have not gotten anything
recently at least since and I am a member but since Sarah moved I have not gotten anything. So but that would be a good chunk of of people in in the township. That's another way of getting the message out to people. Yeah,
>> I'll reach out to Hakari. >> Will know. So, >> and how does how do people feel about the Happy Milbourne situation? Because Happy Milbourne has so many res people who are not residents. >> Do we put our Zoom there? I mean, I guess anyone in the world can come watch it, but is that a good place for us to
say come and watch us weekly? um to be discussed. >> I don't see why not, but you know, I I'm not on Facebook, so I would not be the one posting on Happy Over. Um but, you
know, >> Yeah. Yeah. Um 13A Jerry making announcements about charter study at the TC meetings. You sort of just said that. >> Yeah, I did. Um I can see if we can get it also included in the um weekly MGR
message. Um I know our first organization meeting was mentioned but I don't know if the whole schedule has been sent to administration for sending it out on that me on that forum. >> Right. And I know that the the agendas can I just address the agenda thing
because the agendas have been posted every single week prior to the meeting. So, I know we sent the the process is it gets sent to town hall. Um it gets posted on the website and obviously, you know, this week was was busy with the TC meeting on Tuesday, so perhaps we just
got um a little behind because of it because I'm sure there was a whole bunch of new business for the town to deal with, right? So, we'll do our best to keep our agendas up there. I know last week Tom Tom Hilner was very kind to commend us about all the agendas being up there and having our videos all was
on a little lag the first two weeks, but again I think we're we're all pretty much as doing as best as we can to get everything up there. The agendas are pretty similar week to week. There's nothing crazy. It's past business. It's our interviews. We're not very controversial in you know what we're doing. It's just a pretty systematic
routine of now getting through all the interviews. Phase one is pretty clear that it's mostly studying current form of government. the past folks, you know, on TC's and the employees. I mean, that's really the simplicity of this first phase. >> And I I I should remind the public that
uh the email address is on the website and that gets checked once a day. So, you know, if something's missing, um send send an email and it'll get, you know, flag flag it through email or some other way and we'll make sure it gets
handled. And just to let everyone know, starting next week, we can meet in public at the Bower Center. So, starting >> in in person, so anyone who wants to
join me because everyone knows how great I am on Zoom. Uh-huh. I will be at the Bower Center every uh every meeting going going forward, you know, and I think I think it'll draw more people,
you know, people to come in in person. We will be at the uh you know, in the in the back room at the uh BA power center at uh >> the fireplace room, Chris, right? >> Yeah, the Yeah, the fireplace room at uh
8 8 o'clock starting on the 15th. So I I I got that room going forward till the till the end of our uh commission here. >> Well, we we have posted in here next commission meeting. It says 7 p.m. remote meeting via Zoom on the 15th.
>> Uh that one would be at 8 p.m. Is that >> 8 8 o'clock? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So So I I I saw the same thing as Joanna saw. It's it's posted as 7 PM Zoom. So we should probably edit that. That was just in our in our draft.
>> Okay. Yeah. >> I wasn't sure if it got changed at the bottom of it. >> So So just to make it very clear, um all the meetings up until today and including today were at 7:00 p.m. Um that was sort of the first trunch of meetings that was scheduled when we first started up. Um we the set of
meetings that starts January 15th and onward will start at 8:00 p.m. Um just so those of us who have to commute can make it to the meetings on time. Yeah. you know, >> and the I I spoke to Christina a bit about this as to how it should be showing up on the website because it's a
little bit confusing right now. Um, but I I'll make sure that it's crystal clear that it's 8 p.m. going forward. >> Great. >> Excuse me. >> Just just uh from a legal standpoint, Jerry, did have were the was the meeting was the list of meetings noticed with the township clerk? Do you know?
>> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. So, I um I'll work with you offline, but um if the if there's kind of a revised schedule going forward, it should probably just get published to comply with the Open Public Meetings Act. Um and if you're changing any time, that needs to be renoticed as well. So,
>> okay. They were they were noticed in two um sets. So the first set was noticed at 7 p.m. and the second set of dates was 8:00 p.m. >> So it already specifies that they were going to >> Yeah, it was already specified that they Yeah, it's just was we we got all of the
dates and the times about two to three weeks ago and then we set those. So those were actually noticed separately just in two different sets. >> Okay. >> But we we can confirm that that's done correctly as well. Great.
>> Okay. Anyone else? All right. Uh 14. Public comment. Speak during the public comment period. Please follow these instructions. Ensure your Zoom display name shows your first and last name, raised hand button. Uh you will be called upon in order and
promoted to the panelists. Please turn on your video when called to speak. Clearly state your full name and whether you are a Milbourne resident or a business owner to facilitate an orderly meeting and permit all to be heard. Please limit your comments to 3 minutes. A reminder that the public comment
period is an opportunity for residents to share their views with the commission. Commissioners will not respond to questions or engage in dialogue during a speaking time, but will carefully consider all comments at the end of the public comment period. Questions and discussions may be
addressed at the chair's discretion. you know, at at at the end of this uh charter charter study commission, I'm I'm gonna have this thing memorized. I say it twice every meeting. So, anyway,
does Jerry, does does anyone have their hand raised? >> Yep, we have Cheru. >> All right. >> Hey, Sheru. >> Hey, Chris. Good to see you and I'm I really want to commend again all the good work that you and all the other
commissioners are doing. It's fantastic. But again, you know, we are here to to to make sure that that this whole process is transparent and how meaningful we can uh give the inputs, you know, have more public engagement.
This is all for the benefit of the community for Melbourne. So, and again it's, you know, we are all in this together and and we would love to help as much as we can um from the public. Um again, thank you for considering the
possibility of holding public interviews with elected officials. To clarify, we are not requesting public interviews of employees but only of elected officials like how Red Bank did. this review uh you know relates to evaluating different
forms of government and is intended as a learning and fact find finding exercise. It's I I I don't understand why they would be scared of something that it's they would have done in the past. It's not about you know investigating um you
know like as a mayor why didn't you uh you know u you know work on this road as a mayor why didn't you put this traffic light? No, it's not about that. It's it's about what is what was that form of government and what was your experience.
So I think that should be very candid if a public interview is being held and it's just the goal is simply to learn from the experiences and uh it I don't think so it would call for criminal investigation or they should be very scared. It's it's their civic duty as
well. Um and another question I had which I didn't hear any answer you know I did hear about anecdotal experiences. So what safeguards you know do we have to prevent interviews uh from outweighing data? How is perception risk
managed during the process like relative to empirical indicators? And the third thing which I wanted to really ask because you know you are intering in groups of two. What mechanisms is the commission using to ensure accuracy when
information is disseminated with the remaining group of commissioners? Thank you. Um Joanna, do you wanna um do you wanna as best as we can sort of elaborate on
>> our questions? >> Sure. >> So um I I don't know that I understand the first part of that question, empirical versus anecdotal. I'm I'm not sure I understand the question nor how to answer it. But I don't know if Michael has a interpretation or or Jerry because I'm not sure um what to what how
to respond, you know, how how how it affects how we interpret the answers. It >> Well, I think Joan, I think maybe what she was getting at is is h how do you distinguish as a as an interviewer what is maybe truthful, not not truthful, what
is accurate or contrived or something like that. And and to that I would say that I don't think we're going to get necessarily I I forget it. I know we're not getting all empirical answers. I think the point is that we're going to interview as many people from different
roles and parties and affiliations and get a sense of the overall picture based on weighing different answers from different people against each other. And then it becomes a a sort of to the greatest end a judgment call. >> Right. I I think that the
>> I was going to add to that Curry. I I don't think any single anecdotal incident by itself is going to influence >> the commission's view or decisions. Uh if if a collection of anecdotes points to a systemic issue, that's when we
>> think more about it and deliberate on it. But but we want the anecdotes. We want to see if there's a pattern. Um, and it's important for us to to get the data point. And I think all of us have been trusted by the township to do our job well. And this is the definition of
doing our job well. Um, drawing appropriate conclusions from all interviews and not a single interview. And I think in in conducting the interviews that we have already, you know, been as Chris said, knee deep in
um we do find the questions provide the data points because they're appointed. It could be, you know, anything from how do you feel about how many years, you know, you think it's appropriate to serve in this form of government. I mean, that's a pretty specific question. Do you think three years is enough? Do
you how many members of, you know, the commission do you think are appropriate? Do you think that's enough? Those are pretty specific data points, right? So there that leaves no room for interpretation. The anecdotes as as Shinook and and Corey said, I suppose that to hopefully that'll answer your
question, Sheru, is the anecdotes will just let us know, I guess, if there are systemic issues, right? It's not going to inform the type of government we choose. It's just what other problems have we not identified. But I think the questions are extremely clear and if we could have that meeting that we've, you
know, we've been offering for, you know, a couple of weeks, we'd love to sit down with, you know, the three of you guys and and go over the questions and make sure that you feel, you know, as as civic members, as residents, as neighbors, as concerned citizens and people who chose to run. Um, that that
the questions that are being asked are the questions you'd like to see asked. And I think that nothing's influencing us past, you know, evaluating the data that's going to be coming in. Looking at the next phase of data, have we asked the right questions of these people going into the next phase with the past,
you know, TC members? And obviously, we'll look to Michael Collins as our attorney with expertise to make sure we haven't missed anything so that, you know, it's just pure correct data that we're reporting back. And we're to answer the final question. I think it's the final question how
we're getting this out to our fellow members because we can only meet as a group of one or two to make these interviews happen. We're taking diligent notes. We are putting the answers below the questions. We're, you know, putting as much information as we can. Uh, one
of us asks the questions while the other sits there diligently typing. Um, we try to get as much information as we can in there. We pause a lot if we have to repeat. Um and then you know we'll go back if something's not clear and ask
the question again if we feel like we've missed it. So that's how we disseminate it out to the group. >> Yes. to uh Joanna's point um when we ask the questions you know the folks that we have been interviewing
they not only answer the questions uh the question but they also go into indepth about their own opinion what their function is and they and they elaborate more so we are getting more
information than if we were just so strict, you know, about, you know, having it, you know, official and and and stuff like that. So I I re I really appreciate you know every everyone's
concern but you know you know trust me you know we we are we are having in-depth conversations with with these folks and we will um provide summary of
these uh in in in interviews you know late later on in phase one. One one thing I'll also point out folks is that um with the reporting out like I mentioned earlier and then ultimately any private interview then being discussed in the report I think the
check and the transparency is really you know when someone goes to read the report at the end of this process is the conclusion supported and you know if the interviews are not you know outlined and weren't really conducted there's not going to be much there and the public can reach their own conclusions about
the thoroughess but I'm confident we'll be working to ensure that the hard work the commissioners are putting in right now is reflected in the in the final product and the interim meetings where it'll be reported out. >> Well, I I just want to say that the interviews are not going to be the only
source of us making conclusions. That's one of the ways for us to do factf finding. Um but we're just going to study the different forms of government as they exist. And some forms have advantages and pros and some forms have cons. and we're going to have to just pick as a township what we think is most
relevant for us uh you know the opinion of this commission. So yes, the interviews are important but they're not the only source of our learning and they're not going to be the only information that goes into conclusion that we draw. >> Yeah, that is Shanuk that is that is a
very good point and um we will be uh discussing that in phase two also big big time you know. Yes. All right. Um, Jerry, uh, is there anyone else, Jerry? >> Um, I see True has re-raised her hand,
but there's no other individual. So, >> uh, course we like Shu. Let her let her go again. >> She She lowered her hand. Um, >> she lowered her. >> May have just been stayed up. Um, I
don't see anyone else with their hand raised. All right, I now uh close the public comment period. Are there any comments from the commission uh regarding any comments made made by the public, which we sort of just did, but does anyone
else have anything to say? >> Is he true raised her hand after close? >> I agree. All right. >> We'll let her in. Um, well, well, I closed it, but if Shiru wants to say something fast, we
we'll we'll let her say it. >> Hey, Sheru. >> Hey, Chris. No, sorry. There's something um I think happened with my phone while I was raising the hand. It did take a while to come up. So, thank you for
letting me know. I just wanted to clarify to Shunuk um that I I it's not about getting to the systematic issue. What I was asking was how do you manage those perceived risks? Uh that was my question basically. How do you make sure
that it is not dominating or does not influencing? What mechanism is there to ensure? Because I I understand these anecdotal findings uh would lead to in systematic issues but what mechanism how are you controlling or managing that risk that it's not the emotion that gets
into the final um review or the decision which you know you would be recommending to the TC. That's all. Thank you. >> Thank you. Uh, chairman, do you want me to respond or >> please since it was directed? >> Yes. Um,
>> well, I I'm not sure how to really answer that question other than to say that uh um we are going to be free from bias and this is a genuine effort to study our system and as I said before look at
different possible alternatives including our current form and see what's the best. So there is other than saying we are not going to be biased and we're not going to be influenced by just one person or one opinion or one viewpoint. I don't know what mechanism can exist. This is not this is not a
system um this is not a computercoded system that we are developing. Uh this is our discretion and we're going to put out a report and ultimately the voters are going to be the judge of whether they want to accept the recommendation or not. So
>> yeah, I think about that just just to sort of follow up on what Shinook is saying is I think look, we got to use judgment. We and we we all know that we're going to be using judgment in all of our interviews and all of the reviews of the the information we get from the interviews and we just have to be
deliberately mindful and we are we've already discussed we've said it in public meetings that we're going to be deliberately mindful to keep as much of an open mind as possible and we will check we we have all agreed to check each other if we if we disagree with or
we have an opinion we are going to be purposefully vocal about expressing how how we how we may interpret something, how we may view something, and our opinions on things. And that's I think one of the things about this this group here that that I that I appreciate is that we're coming from different
perspectives. And I I want anyone on this commission or the public if I say something to call me out. I I if you know me well, I I've pro you've probably heard me say this before. I reserve the right to be smarter tomorrow than I am today. I'm not going to sit on
principle. And if you if you have something that you think is is incorrect, I'm I'm open to hearing it. I I may change my mind. I might not change my mind, but the point is I'm going to be purposely open-minded when when reviewing these things. So >> I I just wanted to add maybe and I I
don't know if this is what Drew was getting at, but I I think you know the difference between anecdotal versus empirical. I think we have to weigh sort of the scale and the impact of any anecdote that's told to us, right? So You know, someone might give an example as part of an anecdote and then we might
say, well, what what was the scope of this? Was it $100? Was it $1,000? Was it a million dollars? Was it $10 million? You know, if it's $10 million, has someone who also served on the TC at the same time or another municipal employee, like should that come up in that
interview? Right? So, I I think maybe anecdotal is not quite the right word. Maybe they're just examples. Um, and you know, examples have different scales and you know, we're not going to cherrypick some example that's, you know, not moving the needle on anything, right?
So, I I think that's sort of where the judgment call comes in. Um, at least that's sort of how I understood what that question was to be. Um, you know, I I think the more examples we see that are of a similar vein that will point in a direction in terms of this is a
general theme in terms of this is where our government is working well, this is where it's not working well. Um, and you know, I I don't know short of finding multiple different examples how someone would go about, you know, explaining that.
>> Yes, that's it's very interesting. Um, so Michael, let me ask you a question and I know I asked you this this afternoon. So like when Joanna and I are uh in interviewing folks, okay? You
know, we take copious note copious notes and everything like that. So we cannot meet as a commission without it being in a public forum. Correct. >> Correct. More than two. So, so you know,
Joanna and I will meet or Jerry and I will meet and we'll come to a conclusion and then one of us will sit down with Corey or Shinook or what whatever and then then and then we have to rehash what what what we find and then all of
us come to a conclusion. I I think in terms of the specific mechanics, chairman, I I'd probably want to chat offline with some of you individually to be able to give you more candid legal advice. Uh that's one thing I'll always remind you all. Um you know, my job is to guide you here in public,
but if anything's a kind of a specific legal conclusion, we would do it in executive session actually or um outside of a public meeting. But generally speaking, um, you know, I think there's going to have to be some, uh, transition where the one or two commissioners
working on it, uh, collaborate on what they see as the material that's subject to being reported out because it it's kind of a trend or an overall conclusion. And then, you know, you guys will bring that to a meeting like this and and talk about it around the table.
>> Okay. All right. Um, does anyone else have anything? Um, may I have a motion to adjurnn the meeting? >> A motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> Second. >> All right, I'll second. All right. Uh,
thank you everyone. And our next meeting is um January 15th uh either Zoom or at the Bower Center at uh 8:00. You'll see yours truly in flesh at the Power Center. I'll join you, Chris. I'll I'll
join you. >> All right, Michael and Suzanne, thank you so much. We really appreciate this and we are going to uh lean on you folks. Trust me. >> Thank you. >> We appreciate the opportunity and uh look forward to uh to the upcoming meetings. >> Thank you.
>> All right. Have a good evening, Abraham. >> Take care. Thanks. >> Thank you. Bye.