You have any um I'll fill up because we have a forum. Yeah. >> All right. Thank you everyone for coming and welcome to the Milbert Township Charter Study Commission meeting for March 19th, 2026.
Probably Joanna walking in the front door. I can hear it now. Um I'll just give her a second to walk in. >> Yep. All right. We're just uh getting started. So, while you're up, we can we might as well stand
in the flag. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Mr. Beller here.
>> Dr. Con is here. Miss Parker once >> here. >> Mr. Jenna >> here. >> Mr. Ducker. Mr. Ducker is absent. Um I note we also have Suzanne Spasco and Greg Poff of the Township Trip of Randolph in attendance.
>> All right. Um Dr. Kong distributed the agenda prior to our meeting. Uh do I have a motion to approve the agenda? A >> motion. Second. >> All right. All in favor? I >> Okay. No opposed. Uh
Dr. K also distributed the minutes from the March 12th, 2026 meeting. Um we did receive some feedback and and revisions from the interviewees. Um everyone else had any revisions that they needed. All
right. Motion to approve. >> Motion. >> Second. Second. >> Oh, yeah. All right. So, all in favor? >> I I No opposed. >> Does uh any of the commissioners have
any reports? >> Uh before we do that, um I'd like to make a motion to approve invoice 96519 uh from Kmanion Collins for $3,870 um for legal services rendered through February 28th. >> And I'll note that Dr. Kong also
distributed that for review prior to the meeting. Um does anyone have any comments? I did not. >> All right. Motion to approve. >> Motion. >> All right. Second. >> Second. >> Any opposed? We'll just go that way.
Hearing none is approved. >> All right. Now to reports. Do any of the commissioners have reports? >> Um, I think what we're going to hear tonight would be part of our reports if we had one to give because we thought this was so important for the community
to hear. So, thank you for, you know, the next portion of it. >> I will say uh I don't have much to report other than I reached out to another community organization, the South Mountain Civic Association, to advertise both this meeting and the
meeting on Sunday because we'd like to encourage as much community participation as possible. Um have not seen them actually take my posting and and make it, but I am not on Facebook, so it's possible that they post it on Facebook. uh but I did not get an email. So hopefully that will at least be done
before Sunday's community meeting because we encourage all community members to come and participate and please uh we want your voices heard. So that's it for me. >> Nothing. >> Okay. So we're going to move on to
public comment. Uh if anyone from the public would like to speak whether who people who are here or virtual um please ensure that your Zoom display for virtual shows your name your first and your last name but raise your hand button when the public comment is announced which is now you'll be called
upon in order and and promoted to panelist turn on your video when called to speak clearly state your name your full name whether you are a Mourin resident or business owner and to facilitate an orderly meeting and permit all to be heard. Please limit your comments to three minutes. The
commissioners uh have in the past responded to comments and questions, but we tend to do that and wait till the end of of comments to address them all. So, if there's anyone in the room who would like to make a comment, now is the time. >> I have a question. >> Yes. Go ahead.
>> Ben Forest, Red Bank. I can make a comment later after the speaker speaks. Correct. Yes. Make sure I'm reading the agenda correctly. Y >> I will make a comment at that time. Okay. Is there anyone online that would like to make a comment?
>> Anyone online wishing to speak? May raise your hand now. >> Okay. Hearing none, we will close the first public comment. We'll have another one after uh after our old business. We will start all business with an interview and our
interview will be with Randolph's town manager, Greg Puff. Thank you very much for joining us this evening. We are excited to hear from you and and appreciate your contribution to our our study. >> My pleasure. >> All right.
I will I will if it's okay with you, Greg, I will start with a background description of your of your experience. Uh Greg brings more than 25 years of experience as a local government manager in New Jersey. Throughout his career, Mr. Puff has served four local
governments, most recently as the Sussex County Administrator. In his current role as township manager, he serves at the as the township's chief executive officer, leading and supervising day-to-day operations. Mr. Poff is one of only five practicing local government
managers in New Jersey. Recognized as credentialed manager by the International City County Management Association, this prestigious credential reflects a combination of education experience, adherence to high standards of integrity, and demonstrated commitment to professional judgment. In
2019, the New Jersey Municipal Management Association honored Mr. Pot with the Dr. Thomas J. Davy Academic Achievement Award for his work in the development and implementing training programs for newly elected officials and for lecturing on New Jersey local
government. A Morris County native, Mr. Puff earned a bachelor of arts degree in policy and management studies from Dickinson College in Carile, Pennsylvania, and a master of public administration degree from the department of public policy and administration at Rutgers University
Camden. I feel like we should then confirm him as an expert witness here. >> And before we do that, I should note I think Mr. Puff is coming out of a Randolph council meeting tonight. Is that correct? >> Uh that is correct.
>> So this is again amazing to me. >> Yeah. From last week. >> We we did this last week uh where we interviewed uh council people from Redbank and they were coming from a a council meeting that they had. So, I just am curious, what time did your meeting start today that you're able to
join us at 8:00? >> Uh, our meeting started at 6:00 and uh this evening the agenda was a bit late. So, the Randolph Township Council may have set a record uh as the meeting adjourned uh just a little bit after 20
after 6. >> That makes me even more interested to hear what you have to say and how you operate. I I if I may I I would just say efficiently >> and and I appreciate that. So >> efficiency.
>> Uh so so in addition to what I've described, is there anything else you can walk us through regarding your career in municipal management, uh the communities you've served and the different governing structures you've worked under? If you can give us a little description chronologically, I
suppose would be easiest. >> Yes. And and thank you very much for having me. It's a it's a pleasure to be here with you this evening and to be able to share my experience in in local government. I I started my career uh at the end of n my public service career at
the end of 1999 serving as the assistant township manager in Randolph. So I've I've come full circle. Uh my first assignment uh managing uh a community was in Byron Township and Byum Township
I served as the township manager under a council manager form of government. Uh in Byron Township the mayor is directly elected and there are five council members including the mayor. Uh I served Byron Township for about
three and a half years when I moved on to serve as the business administrator in Rockaway Township and I was appointed business administrator under a mayor and council uh form of government there. The mayor
serving as the chief executive is directly elected and there are nine council members. So, a total of 10 elected officials, uh, nine council members, three at large, six wards, and an elected mayor.
Uh, I was in Rockaway for about 10 years, uh, when I then had an opportunity to serve as the Sussex County Administrator. Uh, that follows a county board of commissioners uh, format. The board selects a director
similar to what would be in municipal government as a council president and uh there were a total of five members on the Sussex County Board of Commissioners. I then returned to Randolph Township. I
served uh five years as Sussex County administrator. I then returned to uh Randolph Township where I have now served uh almost four years as the township manager again under council manager form of government there. Uh as
distinguished by uh by by Byum uh the mayor is uh selected by the township council and there are a total of seven members on the township council. So, it sounds like you've had experience
with different forms of government, but a lot of it has been the the council mayor uh council manager form. Um, have you had a generally positive experience with the council manager form of government? >> Uh, yes. Uh, I would characterize my
experience as very favorable. Uh it it's interesting because as a township manager, the township manager serves as the chief executive officer. Uh as contrasted with a business
administrator or township administrator's position, which typically is a chief administrative officer. The primary difference has to do with uh the appointment uh management and ultimately uh
discipline andor termination of uh town employees. So serving both in Byron Township and Randolph Township. I served as the chief executive uh having day-to-day responsibilities for those organizations
uh and uh essentially all of the employees with the exception of the township clerk uh worked for me. >> What do you see about the council manager form of government? What aspects do you think make it work so well?
I I I mentioned before uh just as a a joke but it's it's really serious is uh efficiency and effectiveness. Uh that is where I find the real strength of the council manager form of government. Uh the core strengths
administrative competence, professional management, fiscal accountability and operational stability uh are not merely just ideas uh but in fact uh are manifest across the outcomes
uh based upon my experience that uh are much more challenging if not impossible uh to achieve under other forms of government. A recent example of this uh inol illustrates this well. The township
council had expressed an interest in reconfiguring the way our engineering services group uh was managed uh desiring to look at alternatives to the consulting engineering uh way in which they were having their
engineering services managed. Uh, I prepared a report to the township council outlining some possibilities of how I saw that could be accomplished with the recommendation of bringing on a
full-time engineer, which Randolph Township had uh many years ago. And then I went through a process uh for interviewing potential engineers uh which included a structured interview
process. Uh I convened a uh interview panel because this represented a significant shift for how the township was going to handle its engineering work. And I was able to draw upon not only my experience but other
professional engineers who have served in the capacity of municipal engineers to participate in that process. And then uh based upon that I was able to uh report back to the ca the council that
we had found a a suitable candidate and I extended an offer of employment to that individual. And I would say that the council has been very pleased uh with the hiring of its now full-time township engineer. But
that process was done uh you know a township engineer is a high-profile position and could have been subject to political influence. Uh you know council members expressing opinions or trying to influence
ultimately how that decision was going to be made. uh which you might find working with a directly elected mayor or a strong mayor in uh council mayor counsel form of government. But the
township council was very clear. They had established a preferred direction by way of policy and then they allowed me to proceed with the implementation of that and ultimately the hiring of the township engineer. And I believe that
the separation between the policy and the administration in a council manager form of government doesn't provide just good governance but it produces better outcomes for residents. >> So okay so so you did mention one of the conditions that separation is is what
makes it work well with respect to the efficiency and effectiveness in particular. What structural components do you feel result in that or or or foster the effectiveness and efficiency? Are there any structural
guard rails or or aids? Well, it it's it's something that I I I've I've said when people have asked me to contrast uh the role of the township manager in this form of government as compared to serving as an administrator
in a different form. the the efficiency and the effectiveness I believe comes from the fact that the township manager has uh a tremendous amount of authority and and that also then serves as its greatest challenge is
the township manager has a lot of authority. I I believe that when there is an understanding and the uh community including the governing body embraces the form of government
that is when uh it it succeeds. There is a level of role clarity uh which I alluded to before policy versus administration. there is a professional hiring process
in hiring the manager and then a willingness on the part of the governing body to let the manager manage the day-to-day operations. >> So what are some of the risks that pose a threat to the council manager structure? I I believe that specific risks would
include micromanagement by council members, political interference in personnel decisions, uh or just general governing body dysfunction. >> Have you seen because because presumably
a lot of that is is personalitywise. I don't know. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like structurally that there's nothing that would prevent those divisiveness or politics. In your career, have you seen a steady state or have you seen situations where even in a
council manager structure there's been politicking or or divisiveness? not not with not in the assignments that I've had though I I certainly am are I certainly am aware of other council manager forms of government uh other
than Randolph where the understanding and the embracing of the form of government uh may not be universal among either the community the governing body and even
sometimes uh deficiencies on the part of the town manager uh him or herself. And that's when that's when you can find some of this divisiveness and really undermining
what the underpinnings are of uh the council manager form of government. >> When things do go wrong, to the extent they've gone wrong, who's held accountable? Is it the council or the manager?
Both? Well, that's a good question and that really would depend upon what the particular challenge was. If if it's a breakdown in the administration of the organization, then it is the obligation of the
township council to raise that with the township manager and seek resolution. uh if there are instances where the governing body is uh interfering with the day-to-day operations of the
uh of the township manager's office or the administr or the organization more generally. Then it's the manager's obligation to work with the governing body to point out where those deficiencies exist and work with the governing body to see those things
corrected. And and there are times and certainly have been times throughout my career uh where the council has expressed uh its desire to see a policy implemented um you know consistent with
what its intent was. And that's not to say that they're micromanaging but but clearly establishing or uh redefining what those expectations are relative to legislative intent. And then there are times that I have raised an issue where
I feel that the governing body has uh overstepped uh in terms of their interaction with the administrative organization uh and ask that my role uh be respected in that regards. And I I have to say on
in both of those scenarios uh the resolutions have been have been positive. >> Given the authority um that you described that the council the manager has. Do you find that that residents it's clear to residents if they have an
issue who to go to whether it's the council or the manager? Well, and that's where I really feel Randolph particularly uh excels because uh I will hear uh in the presence of
council people dealing with constituents a direct referral to me assuring the residents that their concerns will be heard and properly acted upon. Uh and so you know even being present and hearing
that I know that that is the case then even when I'm not present and will receive phone calls uh from residents and and others doing business with the township uh saying that they were referred by uh a township council member
uh to my office to have a particular concern addressed. And then you know I along with the the administrative organization will work towards addressing whatever that issue is. And then uh the the converse is when you
have uh residents who who will call and express certain issues about policies that the township council has adopted. uh I will simply tell them that while I I remain available to assist them through whatever issues they may have
that the issue that they've raised is of a policy nature and is better directed back to their their elected officials. >> Actually I think that answer segus very well into Commissioner Parker Lens's out
of questions right now. So I will now hand it over to her. >> Thank you. Um nice to see you again. Um so to move this forward, uh how does the relationship between the council and the administrative organization work in Randolph?
>> So the council must act as a body and may only deal with the administrative services solely through the office of the township manager. And and that's just that's very important to understand.
uh again the governing body uh acting as a body. So it's the majority of the township council that is able to establish policy not not individual council people and and not even the mayor who effectively under
this form of government serves as the chair of the council. uh council members are in fact by law prohibited from directing subordinates of the township manager. In order to make all of this work, I
provide and present written manager reports to the township council twice a month as I did earlier this evening, which outlines the status of various administrative matters so that everybody is kept apprised of of what's going on
in town. The township council then will refer policy matters to council workg groupoups uh which consists in in uh of three council members uh so as not to trigger any open public meetings act
issue but allows them then to do a deep dive on whatever the policy matters are that they wish to discuss and I will provide administrative support as appropriate to give you a few examples of the work groups that they use. Uh
they have uh used a land use work group which uh most recently dealt with a lot of the affordable housing issues uh that ultimately came before the township council. There's been a particular emphasis on improving communications
with residents. Uh and so there's a communications workg group where our communications director will be present to provide a report and and address some of the uh items. uh presented by the township council or the the workg group
members and then also an ordinance work uh workg group when if either I uh through my department heads have a particular ordinance that needs amending or if the council has an idea for a new ordinance to be considered. They will
refer that for review or or even actual drafting at the ordinance workg groupoup level. And then ultimately with that information coming back to the full council for further discussion uh
deliberation and ultimately adoption if the body chooses to do so. >> Thank you for that. Um so moving on to the next question. Um I don't know if you I I guess you probably do after our last meeting. Um, Milurn currently has a
business administrator whose position was created by ordinance. How does that differ from a township manager operating under the Faulner Act in terms of authority and accountability? So a as you point out, the Milbour
administrator is created by local ordinance and the business administrator serves as the chief administrative officer overseeing the day-to-day operations. In contrast, the township manager is
established by state statute and serves as the chief executive officer of the organization. And so many of you that would be involved with business would have an understanding of the difference between a CEO and a CEO. The statutory authority gives the
manager defined removal protections, clearer separation of powers, and a legally structured chain of command. An ordinance created administrator serves entirely at the governing body's pleasure with no independent statutory
standing. Um so you've managed under governing bodies of different sizes for a municipality like Melbourne which is around 21,000 residents. What's your view on five members versus seven?
>> Having worked with governing bodies of five, seven, and nine, I am of the opinion that five is the most efficient. Seven is manageable and nine is particularly challenging. >> Okay.
Um from the manager's chair, does the size of the governing body change how you operate from day-to-day? >> Yes, it does. Uh the larger the governing body, the more time is required simply to keep members informed. Uh and that time is an
operational resource to me. Without a designated primary point of contact, whether that's the mayor, council president, or director, depending on the form of government, communication demands multiply with each additional member. Electronic communication
certainly has helped, but that hasn't eliminated the challenge of having to having to engage with the elected members depending upon the number of elected members that you have. >> May I ask a follow up on that?
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, yeah. You mentioned five as the most efficient number and seven is manageable. Assume you're saying that from the manager's perspective just putting a council person's hat on it al
if you have a five member body it means that the work groups have to be a two member uh work group as opposed to a a three member council work group that's possible with a seven member body. Do you think that two versus three
distinction for a work group or subcommittee matters for the council's efficiency? That's a good question. Uh when I served as a township manager in Byum with five council members, uh they did not use a
workg groupoup format. uh much of the work that otherwise would have been done in a workg groupoup setting uh was left for the council to
deliberate as a whole. uh that placed some more responsibility on me working with the town attorney particularly in drafting ordinances but as ao as opposed to referring those to a workg group to be developed uh they would be developed
with some input from the governing body and then returned back to the body as a whole. >> Okay. So, so I assume you can't say whether it's efficient or not for the council, but it makes a difference in
how some policy matters are potentially handled. >> Um, >> that that is correct. >> Thank you. So just teeing off of that actually is do you think the >> council manager form of government with
the manager having a executive function is what lends itself to allowing for a smaller council versus if if a you know if you have a business administrator may not a CEO um could you
see that a larger body whether it's seven or nine would have its benefits I'm just wondering if if the your opinion on the size the the smaller size it might be framed by the fact that you have a manager who's a CEO role.
>> I I don't know if that would be the case. Um the when you have an administrator and and as as you know I have not worked in a a pure township form as a local ordinance
administrator. My experience serving as a business administrator was under a mayor council form. And so that operated very differently because there the mayor served as the chief executive with the business administrator serving as the chief administrative officer. So I I
don't know if I could speak to that directly. the what I would suggest you would have to give some thought to and I don't know how Milbour conducts its business whether Milbour utilizes uh workg groups
or not or much of that what I've described being referred to a work group is just simply handled uh a as part of the public meetings of the township committee. uh it it
certainly would be something to to give consideration to. I believe that the the efficiency and the effectiveness has more to do with the embracing and understanding of the
form of government as opposed to necessarily the number of elected officials. >> Thank you. I'm going to now pass over to um Dr. Kung to to to follow up with some of his own questions. Great. >> Uh thanks again for joining us this
evening. Um I'm going to focus a little on the selection of the mayor in a council manager form. Um so we've interviewed municipalities with directly elected mayors and others where the council selects the mayor from among themselves. What's your perspective on those two approaches within the council
manager form? I believe that the self- selection of the mayor by the governing body is preferable. In a council manager form, the mayor's role is fundamentally one of leadership within the governing bo body,
presiding, facilitating, and serving as the primary point of contact with the manager, not executive administration. When the mayor is directly elected, it can create confusion about where
policy authority resides and blur that critical distinction between the council's role to establish policy and the manager's role to implement it. Self- selection reinforces the principle
that the governing body acts as a body with the manager accountable to that body as a whole rather than to a single elected executive. >> Um, how does the mayor selection process work in Randolph and does it create any
complications? The mayor is selected by the entire governing body on an annual basis and I am not aware of nor have I observed any complications as a result of that selection process.
>> Great. Um, how do residents typically understand the mayor's role in a council manager form and does that method of selection affect the understanding of the mayor's role? In the case of Randolph, the residents
understand the mayor's role. Uh that is a function of the governing bodies embracing the council manager form of government. The township council will direct constituents to the township manager concerning operational ma matters and the annual rotation of that
position uh of mayor reinforces the council as a body concept. >> Great. Um, I'm going to turn a little to perm length and elections. Um, so Milbourne currently has annual elections under the Township Committee form of government.
Randolph has elections every two years. In your view, how does holding elections every other year impact governance and accountability? >> Holding elections every other year, in my opinion, is preferred. My experience bears out that an election cycle, bad
election cycle of every other year allows for better governance as a result of members not constantly seeking reelection. >> Um, and you post four-year terms with staggered elections every two years. Is there a meaningful difference between
concurrent versus staggered elections from your perspective? I I believe that the staggered elections are necessary to preserve institutional knowledge and also allow for seated members to share their experience and
understanding of local government, including how the form of government operates. >> Great. Thank you. Um I'm going to pass it over to Mr. Tenno. >> Sure. Uh I'll focus a little on uh supposedly everyone's favorite topic, partisan
versus nonpartisan elections. Uh am I correct in understanding that you've worked for municipalities, some with partisan and some with nonpartisan elections? So you've had experience with both? >> That is correct. >> Great. So in your experience, does the
election structure make a difference in terms of who gets elected, how public discourse is conducted, and how the municipality is governed. >> In my experience, the election structure
does influence the candidate pool and public discourse, though perhaps less so actual governance. Nonpartisan elections tend to attract candidates who are more uh community
focused than issue driven and public discourse tends to center on local concerns rather than state or national narratives. That said, I I have observed that the absence of a party label does
not necessarily mean the absence of a partisan framework among those who are elected. That kind of leans into my next question there. Um I think you're stating that it doesn't keep the partisan framework aside. Um
but in your experience, which format better describes how elected officials approach municipal issues? Meaning, are they approaching them with a party hat on once they're elected in a partisan framework? or does it not
matter once they are elected they're talking about local issues no matter what. >> In my experience uh both are simultaneously true. uh elected officials may carry partisan instincts, but when the actual work of local
governance, setting a tax rate, funding a capital project, negotiating affordable housing requirements, those instincts rarely map cleanly uh to the decision at hand.
Local officials tend to be practical rather than ideological. In my observation, local officials who arrived with strong partisan identities generally governed on the merits once they understood what the job actually
entailed. >> That's that's very helpful. Thank you. Um so just the last couple of questions as we close the questions. Um, in your view over the long term, what are the
most important factors in making the council manager form work well? And I know you've alluded to a few factors before. If you could just summarize that for us. What are the most important factors making that format work well? >> Sure.
>> Everything that we've discussed tonight points to a few enduring facts. Uh, first is role clarity. The governing body must understand and embrace its policymaking role and the manager must be empowered to administer
without interference. And I also want to say that the role of the township manager requires that manager to do that. uh my mentor uh who I I worked for about four and a half years
uh told me something as I was looking to get started in this profession and he said many people can serve as administrators very few can serve as township managers and having served in multiple roles including that of
business administrator, county administrator and township manager uh his words to me have have borne turn out to be true. So there certainly are responsibilities in terms of the governing body understanding what its role is as a policym group, but it's
also very important for the individual who is given the responsibility and the authority to manage the day-to-day operations to do so consistent with the statute. Uh the professional hiring process that
I talked about before uh is also another important factor in the council manager form of government being able to be insulated from uh uh political pressure for personnel decisions.
Third, uh the governing body discipline members who act as a body, direct the organization through the manager and resist the impulse to micromanage. And finally, institutional continuity, which is really where I think Randolph
Township has uh been exceptional. Staggered terms, experienced members mentoring new ones, and a manager who provides consistent administrative leadership across political transitions.
When all of these elements are present simultaneously, the council manager form consistently outperforms other structures. When any one of those breaks down, the form is vulnerable regardless of what
the charter says. >> Uh, and just want to ask you follow up. Uh, how what process did the Randolph Council follow when choosing a township manager? What process did you have to go through? Did they hire a search firm?
Did they just uh write applications? and and were they interviews? How how were the interviews conducted? Was it council as a whole interviewing you? Was it certain committee or subcommittee of the council? If you could just shed some light on that.
>> I would be happy to. Uh Randolph Township through uh three three township managers. the the first was my my mentor uh when he retired, then his successor,
and then when I was hired, the township council relied upon uh a search firm to conduct that search. Most recently, when I was hired, there was a a subset of the township council
uh designated as the manager search workg group who was the primary interface with the uh search firm principal and conducted the first round of
interviews with uh with with the search firm. And once the finalists were identified uh through that process, then the finalists were brought in for interviews
uh with the entire township council. >> Thank you. Um >> can I can I ask a follow question? You mentioned mentorship as as something that you experience in Randolph Township when there's a transition and I was wondering if if that mentorship happens
organically or are there any structural elements that lend themselves to mentorship? >> Well, in fact, in it it's structural and and that is the position of the assistant township manager. So there are
a number of us who had started our who had started our careers uh in public service as assistant managers. Unfortunately, uh, with the, uh, great recession,
the assistant manager position was eliminated in 2010 when I when I was hired in uh, July of 2022 and I started evaluating where the
organization was administratively and our administrative uh capabilities and capacities. I concluded that the position of the assistant township manager really should be restored
so as to increase the capacity that my office would have to meet the expectations of the governing body as well as the demands of the township residents. Coincidentally, not only had I served as
assistant township manager, but my predecessor had served as an assistant township manager, I believe, two or three assistant managers before me. And so Randolph Township has enjoyed
uh great success through having assistant township managers uh who have been trained by the the Randolph Township Manager and then have gone on to have careers in uh New Jersey local government. I know that a concern
that was expressed uh from time to time by prior councils was if the township is bearing the cost of these assistant managers and these assistant managers are leaving you know anywhere from you
know two to four years uh and there's something of a cycle you know isn't township in fact subsidizing local government throughout New Jersey and the answer to that quite simply is no. Uh
is not doing that because each of the assistant township managers have had uh their own portfolio of meaningful work that was done. Um my my particular portfolio happened to be open space acquisitions
uh where over the course of about my four plus years with Randolph was able to preserve over a thousand acres of open space. Fast forward now, it's hard to believe, you know, 20 25 years later,
as the township is addressing its fourth round obligations, the reason township had such a small uh RDP was as a result of the township mothers and father's decision to preserve open
space and that that was work that I had done for that community a quarter of a century ago. So that that's the structural that's the structural capacity uh of of mentorship in Randolph Township that
that I believe has contributed greatly uh to uh professional local government management in New Jersey. And I have had since restoring that position uh I have had two assistant township managers. uh
the first one left uh and went into private the private sector and now I currently have uh an assistant manager who I anticipate will continue to serve uh in New Jersey local government. >> Thank you. You know, you've been super
clear and concise in your answers. I really appreciate that. Is there anything from your experience that you think our commission should be weighing that we haven't covered tonight? I I just want to take this opportunity to thank you for having me and allowing
me to be able to share my experience with you. Uh the form of government and the work that you were charged as a charter commission is extremely important work and I appreciate the thoughtful questions that you've
provided me with this evening and I wish you all the best with your deliberations. >> Thank you Mr. Hoff. We we appreciate it as well. Um you are, you know, more than welcome to continue to to stay on or if you'd like to drop off, we understand
you you've already had a council meeting and now this. So we we understand if you want to drop off, but you are welcome to stay on the public as questions. >> Yeah, actually we're we're you know, sure. We're I was going to say we're going to talk about >> Don't mind.
>> We can Yeah, that's fine. We can I mean I think I already talked about community outreach anyway in the meeting on on Sunday. Does anyone have I'll just take care of that. We'll go to public comment and then you can ask questions. Does anyone else have anything about community outreach?
>> Okay. All right. So then we will move to the public comment section so that anyone from the public can ask Mr. Pops questions. Uh as I indicated earlier, if you are on Zoom, please ensure that your Zoom display name shows first and last name. Click the raise hand button when public comment is announced. Now you
will be called upon in order and promoted to panelist. Please turn on your video when called to speak and clearly state your full name and whether you are Melbourne resident or business owner or other to facilitate an early meeting and permit all to be heard. Uh we will generally restrict you to three
minutes although um given that we do not have a large turnout uh we can be flexible on that. We will generally wait until after all public comment to address anything uh from the public. I now open it up to public for comment. >> Uh yes, I had sorry Frank Sackandandy
resident. Um so I had a question for uh Mr. P. Um so even though most township issues are nonpartisan, uh have you ever seen partisanship get in the way of the governing body conducting its business?
I don't know if I could say that I've seen partisanship keeping a governing body from doing its business because you have to keep in mind there will be a majority and a minority. Uh I have found that from time to time
to be extremely disruptive uh particularly during meetings. Um ultimately uh a question will be called, a vote will be held and a decision made. So you know other than maybe some
political theater um you know ultimately the the the body will conduct its business. It's just sometimes uh those those decisions or the deliberation leading up to that
decision um you know might be a might be more interesting than uh in a in a partisan setting than in a nonpartisan setting. >> Um followup question. So, uh, you've
worked for townships that have both partisan and nonpartisan, uh, forms of government, correct? Or elections, rather. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's correct. uh in in the case where you have governments that have nonpartisan elections, have you found
that the individuals on the council tend to work, you know, better or or worse with each other or do they, you know, are they more inclined to cross party lines or, you know, have you seen, you know,
basically a benefit of the nonpartisan elections uh in terms of the quality of governance that that comes Well, again, my experience has been that even in a nonpartisan form, you know,
people come with their, you know, their their partisan ideals, uh, even if they have not been, you know, even if they've not campaigned on on such things. And so, you know, I have found
uh spirited debate uh among non nonpartisan elected body just as I've seen spirited debate uh amongst amongst the the the partisan councils that I've served. Um, as I'd
said earlier, I'm just not sure that uh, you know, partisanship necessarily uh, overlays particularly well uh, or is particularly meaningful when you're talking about issues of local
governance. >> Okay. Uh, another question. um in so when you've had townships you've worked for where they've had partisan um and and versus nonpartisan and you might not know the answer to
this but have you seen a difference in the amount of money that tends to get spent during the election cycle by the candidates get elected? is, you know, are people spending, you know, more or less money if it's a partisan election versus a nonpartisan election? Or have
you not necessarily noticed that? Or maybe you haven't looked at a lack, I don't know. >> I I I I can tell you I have no experience with that whatsoever. And and if I may just sort of to follow up, uh
that is one area of municipal operations that uh I freely admit to not knowing anything about. Elections are handled through the township clerk's office and then the county board of elections. Uh, and as a nonpartisan
employee and nonpartisan township manager, local elections are nothing that I have taken a particular interest in, including looking at uh, ELAC reports and and what money spent.
>> Um, so another question. So you talked a little bit about the council manager uh you know being done by statute the power of the manager by statute versus you know what what we have now where our business administrator is by ordinance.
Have you found that in townships that have the council manager form that the manager has you know either more or less independence from from the committee? And and I'll I'll I'll maybe phrase this a little bit differently. So um you know
we've we've heard that in the past that sometimes what can happen with business administrator is that if you've got you know a majority on the township committee for instance that strongly feel one way they can apply pressure to
the business administrator to you know not only enact that policy but not not speak their mind against it when a bad decision is being Do you have more protection for the the manager under the council manager format
versus business administrator which essentially the majority of the TC could remove them, right? Is there are there benefits to you as the manager under you know one form versus the other?
So, I I can't speak to serving as a business administrator in the township form of government that Milburn has because I just have not served in that capacity. The business administrator position that I had in Rockaway Township was in fact a
statutory administrator uh under the mayor council form of government. So, it was not not defined by local ordinance. the uh when you say when you say that there would be uh you know township council or
township committee people that would uh you know apply pressure to the administrator to not speak ultimately if a majority of the township committee were to provide direction in as much as it's a policy direction
then the administrator is under an obligation to affectuate that irrespective of what the administrator's you know position might be on that. The same is true for uh a township manager. While the individual council members do
not enjoy any authority individually, uh they they speak uh you know they speak strongly and uh you know with authority when they speak as a majority.
And so the both the local local ordinance administrator as well as the township manager I I serve at the pleasure of the Randolph Township Council there. I I do not have a particular term. Um I when
when the majority of the council thank me for my service then it's it's time for me to go. Um there are certain statutory protections in terms of severance and such that the uh statute allows for. Um but I would imagine and
having looked uh rather quickly at your local ordinance uh establishing the office of the administrator um much of what he does or is is responsible to do um uh complement what
I am required to do under the statute. Um can I ask a followup there if you don't mind because you were questioning um are you does the council as a body seek your opinion on any policy matters?
Uh they have uh and uh I I will say that the first thing that I say to them is this is really a policy matter. Um but but then you know and to their credit really they they say but you you've had uh I mean
much uh much for the reason why I'm here speaking to you this evening. The the response is you've seen a lot. You've been in different types of government. Um I managed uh the township of Rockaway through the Great Recession and I
managed Sussex County through the pandemic. So I certainly have a tremendous amount of experience in regards to uh seeing policy being implemented making recommendations relative to any number of items that I'm
asked to report on and provide alternatives to the governing body and so long as they understand that you know if I'm to provide them with some suggestions or recommendations you know I do so at their request but
fully recognize that ultimately that responsibility rests with them and and quite frankly I'm I'm flattered when they ask. Um but I do make it very clear that that is outside of my authority, but I I certainly am more than happy uh as evidence this evening to to share my
experience uh with anyone who asks. >> Thank you. Appreciate that. Take the floor back to you. >> I'm finished. Thank you. No one else. >> Hi, I'm Jeff Feld. I just want to follow up saying that you serve at the pleasure
of the the township committee. You do not have a contract, a term contract. >> I I have a uh I have a memorandum uh of understanding that outlined the terms and conditions under which I was hired.
>> Um it is not an employment agreement. I do serve at the pleasure of the township council. uh that's pursuant to statute. Uh in in contrast, when I served as the administrator in Rockaway Township under the mayor council form,
that position actually does have a set term and the administrator in that form of government serves the term of the mayor who appointed uh the administrator. So, in Rockaway, I served
in in four-year terms and uh was had to be subsequently reappointed. Uh first, I had to be nominated by or or re renominated by the mayor and then uh confirmed by the uh consent of the
township council in that form. So yeah, there there there are certainly differences between uh between serving as a business administrator in a mayor council form and and serving as township manager. >> Now, do you currently receive like an annual review from the township committee?
I I do receive an annual review by the by the township council and yes uh it it is something that uh I'm I'm very pleased with uh having the opportunity to provide the council with a self-evaluation
which uh I like to believe then helps inform them uh as they prepare their comments. uh typically in Randolph and it's just by uh practice. The deputy mayor is the one that is then responsible for compiling the responses
of the council members and then presents that to me upon its compilation. And then at the end of the year, typically the last meeting of the year, uh the uh uh the the review I go through the review uh with the township council
in executive session. >> Thank you. Councilman Bart, did you want to >> Well, I don't have any questions for the administrator. >> Okay, we're still we're in public comment, so you can >> Okay. Um, the Ben Forest, 16 L Avenue, Red Bank,
New Jersey. I'm the councilman there. It's so nice to meet you, Mr. Administrator of uh what's town. >> That's uh m Mr. Manager, but thank you. >> Yes, Mr. Manager. And I'm um so I was honored to be interviewed by you all last week and so I thought I'd come
because I prefer in person to um zoom but I was like yourself. I was at a council meeting until about 7:30. So we have couldn't get here in time for your meeting. >> Um I think that I I would add about we were talking a little bit about
politics. I'm not sure which one of you were asking you a little bit about that >> about partisan was nonispartisan. know I happen to be a Democratic committee member and you know it was very difficult you know um going to nonpartisan and partisan because we had
a long tradition of being partisan. Um, I would say that uh uh it as I said at the meeting last week, it was very popular and I think the Democrats probably voted in majority because we don't know how people voted, but the you know certainly nonpartisan pass overwhelmingly in Redbank and I think
we're doing well as I as I went I don't want to repeat what I said last week, but I did um you know there's sort of I think a perception among some voters some whom I talked to that you know we want to have this kind of fair perfect election and while I think non nonpartisan helps. It's not a fair
perfect election process. I mean, money matters. Who you have the ability to knock on doors, maybe you don't. Maybe you have a full-time job. Maybe you have kids. I mean, elections are messy. You know that, I guess, from the because you had your own election here. >> And I I think there's kind of this um
and I you know, kind of independent win and I said I think I could probably pull it off and I've seen it in other towns, but it is hard. It's really hard to run solo and it's not just money either and it's skills. You really there's a lot to
election. I think I mentioned the legal stuff. You know, a lot of paperwork. You have to know what you're doing. It's easy to spend and waste money. Um, and also negative campaigning is very dicey thing and you get it certainly I'm sure you guys have had it here you know and
if you're not I want to use it if you're a civilian if you're not haven't been involved in politics for a while it's very um stressful and you know can really just rock your world and so um I guess thought I would mention that I
really appreciated your comments um so I think he you know we had the federal government I guess Sharon Randolph with we now have in Redbank. Um you know and I continue and I'm going to run again for the Democratic committee. We do have a role. You know we we support our
Democratic committee. I mean Democratic candidates up the ticket. You know we don't endorse. Now Redbank has chosen not to endorse locally. I guess we could change that. I think one of you told me it's now legal that we could do that but we weren't. But um you know we haven't done that so
far and um you know so uh you know the parties continue. I know the Democratic Republican committee woman and I really loved campaigning at Republican doors, Democratic doors and unaffiliated doors. It was it was really great. Um, you
know, one thing you mentioned earlier about, you know, this we had the ordinance version in Redbank and we had it where they the the the council majority changed the ordinance and there was I don't want to go into the details here,
but basically he was disempowered because they wanted to meddle you know at that time I was sitting in the audience but that happened just like you know I was sitting in the audience audience when the strong mayor I'm not a fan of the strong mayor form of
government as I said you know and I didn't mention but I remember sitting there as a newspaper reporter in a city small city in Mammoth County where they have a strong mayor form of government and the mayor you know was having a tizzy with the council members and ignoring the council members when I
actually come to the meetings literally I mean they say that as a talking point but it actually really happened they're not the mayor is not required to attend council meetings and see have madness to me. It actually is true, which seems rather bizarre to me and one of the
reasons I advocated for the uh council manager form of government. Anyway, unless you any more questions for me, I was just I don't have any questions for your excellent speaker today. >> Ben, I actually had a question for you that just came up when you're talking. is has it during your election, this last election, did the fact that you
were on the um Red Bank Democratic Committee come up? Uh did people try to attack you for it and say, "Hey, >> to a limited degree, although I've been in town a long time, as I may recall, I've been on I was a board of ed member for 19 years." Uh and that's not that's
always that's been nonpartisan in the state of New Jersey for a long time. Um but yes, it did. Um and in fact everybody on on the winning ticket happened to be a Democrat. Not all of them were committee members. The other the uh slate of candidates that was running against us was um a mix and I
think we had an unaffiliated voter running an independent campaign. So um you know so that was that was how the mix I don't remember how the other ticket the exact who was I think it was a couple of unaffiliated voters and mostly Democrats. remember in Redbank was basically more or less rep
Democratic control for a long time and so we had you know uh disagreements within the Democratic party about things and we had you know a rather messy primary and as I mentioned last week we decided to stick with our commitment to for nonpartisan
going forward. Um, we did have a window, not a long window, where the Democratic mess was sort of sorted out by the voters, the primary, and um, you know, uh, the team that I was on control of the quote Democratic committee. And, you know, there were people who said, "Well,
Ben, you know, we don't really have to do nonpartisan after all, >> you know, why don't you just change your mind on that? Yeah, I know you're on the commission, you know, and um, you know, it we didn't we stuck with it. Um the and I'm I'm I'm proud that we did that.
Uh but it was it was a difficult you know time for us. Um so and also a little bit of trivia for you. I was the only person I guess in the state at that time who served both on a board of education and municipal body because technically you're a municipal you're
part of the municipal government and under state law that's generally uh that's illegal actually. But there's one exception. If you get elected to a charter study commission, if you're a school board member, you can do both. And I was the only one in the state.
There you go. >> There you go. >> Do you know if the in Redbank, I think you mentioned the Republican party, did they also vote to not endorse candidates? Do you know? >> They didn't make any endorsement in the last cycle.
>> Um, but they're active in town. I know. I've talked to them in front of my house. So, um, and I think they were getting signatures. I thought they were going to run candidates in the last cycle, but they chose not to. So, um, you know, I'm not quite sure what I'm not a member of the Red Bank Republican
party. Um, so I don't really know what they're doing. So, um, but the the Democratic party in town remains very active at getting our assembly people and senators elected. We have Senator um, Gal, and you know, we were involved. We had the governor when she was
running. We had her over, you know, in Red Bank for various things. And um it was a the primary. We had all all a whole bunch of Democratic candies. By the way, I love your downtown. I'm so glad I came. I took a good walk. I went to the diner. >> Very good diner. I'm a little jealous. It's bigger. It's open late. I miss We
used to have a 24-hour kind of diner right there, but we don't anymore. >> I went to your bookstore and I'm a fan of >> awesome >> a bookstore. fire Mark Twain. So, I got to quote some the uh coldest winter I ever had was a summer in San Francisco.
>> Red Bank has a beautiful downtown tour. >> We do. Um there are downsides, you know, and one of the Oh, one of the questions I know it was you, somebody in the audience asked uh that mentioned there are partisan issues and sure I mean there are issues that Democrats and Republicans disagree on and and just regular, you know, we all disagree on things. Not everything's the same, even
if you're nonpartisan. I I think the one that comes to mind the most to me is housing being one of the downsides about being in a in a country but also in Redbank which is a very hot we got Netflix coming next door. You know real estate is insanely expensive.
Development is insanely expensive and one of the issues that we are struggling with is affordable housing. I assume you probably have some issues like that here. No >> not us. And so it is it is a fraugh and difficult issue like we have New Jersey
Transit with a developer who wants to you know is proposed some kind of train station thing near my house actually. So probably some point I'm gonna have to make a decision on that and there's pilots and all the other stuff associated with that. And you don't have
a lot of great choices and we're also a very small town smaller than you. I mean, it's not like I can just pull out $10 million and fund some 100% affordable housing project where I'd like to. >> We're really too small for what's that
you don't want to get, >> right? But I'm just saying it's we're really small town, you know, and I would be very hard for me. I I guess not impossible. It's not like I'm Jersey City or Elizabeth where I can fund a developer very easily. um you know and obviously I'm sure you hear from
taxpayers here about you know taxes and so we have some um federal housing in town small public housing amount and we have uh some affordable housing that's been built over the years um you know
and so we struggle with those issues and um I'm a big advocate I wanted you know I love my kids to be able to stay in town and it's an ongoing issue really for the country not just us, you know, in local government. And I um I really
want to do more to help, you know, making sure there's housing for everyone, not just the rich. >> Any more? >> Well, thank you. >> It's a good book end. >> Is there anyone online that would like
to speak? >> It does not look like that. Okay. If there are not, I will close public comment. Uh and that concludes the substantive portion of our meeting. If I have a motion, we can address. >> I have a motion. >> All right. Second. Second. All right.
Any opposed? No. All in favor? Thank you so much, Mr. Yeah.