started. >> Great. It's 8 o'clock. Um, good evening everyone. Welcome to the March 4th, 2026 meeting of the Milbourne Township Charter Study Commission, which is called to order. In accordance with section five of the Open Public D
meeting Act, chapter 231, Public Laws 1975, be advised that notice of this meeting was made by posting on the bulletin board and town hall and forwarding to the officially designated newspapers. This meeting would would take place at the Bower Center at 8:00
on Wednesday, March 4th, 2026. Meeting meeting details in the draft agenda have been posted. I'd like everyone to please stand for the pledge of allegiance. Pledge >> allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic
for it stands one nation indivisible. >> Thank you. Um, I would uh I would now like to uh have a roll call. Uh, please note the president. Dr. K.
>> Mr. Biller. >> Yes. >> Dr. Kung is here. Miss Parker L >> here. >> Mr. Tenner. >> Yes. >> Mr. Ducker >> here. >> I note that we also have council Suzanne Sebasco of Teen Manion Collins in attendance. Um, and also Mayor Dr. Christopher Tambboro of Verona on our
Zoom. Thank you. Uh the record will show we have a quorum for this meeting. May uh may I have a motion to approve the agenda? >> I second. >> All in favor?
>> I uh did everyone have a chance to read the minutes? May I have a motion to approve the uh Feb 25 2026 meeting minutes? >> Moved. Yeah. >> Second. >> Good. All in favor? Hi.
>> Right. Uh, reports. Are there any commissioners with reports since our last meeting? >> Uh, I can give a report. Um, >> okay. Thank you. So, Shinook and I have been proceeding with our interviews of
um various townships that are municipalities that that are similar to ours um but also different similar in in in sense of size of residents, downtown features like that, but also different in the sense that some of them are
partisan, some of them are nonpartisan, some of them have elected mayors, some have non-elected mayors. intent of of our discussions is to find out what sort of works for them, what doesn't work for them. So that when we're considering potential um stay either staying with what we are
potential changes, what might what from similar features what what might work and not um so we have had discussions with Redbank which is the most recent town to do a charter study like ours. Um we had a discussion with Madison this week. We've also reached out to
Rididgewood and South Orange. Uh unfortunately we haven't heard back from them. We have tried twice. We're going to try a different method and tonight we're going to be here in front of Verona and I think the conversations have been interesting. Both both of Red Bank and Madison were very different. Um
Red Bank talked a lot about their study and why they had their study, what's changed, um what's working now with the change. Madison's been pretty stable for a while. They they actually did do a charter study um in the 70s, which is similar to when when Milg did it. It
wasn't uncommon at the time because that's sort of when the law changed which allowed for the charter committee, but they decided at that time similar to Milhur, not to make a change. Um, and so we had we had a good discussion. It was interesting that that that the discussion the perspective sort of not
ours but but the the mayor of Madison his perspective on certain things actually changed as our conversation was happening based on having a perspective of the the back and forth between us and what we see and what he's experienced. You know, it's interesting is, you know,
if you experience one thing and that's sort of what your norm is and there hasn't been issues with it, then it doesn't ring, it doesn't nothing drips in your mind. But if you're experiencing something and then, you know, we discussed sort of similar issues that
we're experiencing in our town and how that has caused issues, he's like, you know, I didn't think of it that way. We haven't had an issue because of that, but I didn't think it definitely could influence or that. And and so it was it was a good back and forth. I thought it it was very productive and and obviously we will um include that as part of our
report and results and so I look forward to continuing those conversations with other town so they can inform our decision. >> Thank you Corey. Um I would like to re report on a research uh visit Dr. Khan and I made to Verona on Monday. We
visited the Verona Public Library and their municipal clerk's office to locate 1986 Charter Study Commission report. The clerk's office did not have a copy on file. The library did not have a standalone copy either, but we
discovered that the report was published in full in the local newspapers at the time which the library has digital tide. >> Did you even go microfish? >> Let me tell you. Yeah. Do we still have our >> Let me tell you something. We We did big
time digging. Let me uh let me continue. >> We transfer uh transcribed the full text uh from those clippings and that uh document will be posted to the commissioner's website shortly. We also
located the original ballot question and election results. The charter change to move away from the burrow form of government to a council manager form was approved by Verona voters in 1986 by a
margin of 2,480 to 1327 roughly 2 to1 vote. The first reorganization election under the new form drew eight candidates for five seats. We are looking forward uh
tonight's interview of Mayor's Mayor Dan Burrow as the next step in that research. >> Um are there any other commission or reports? >> Um I have a small report um apologize as a report per se, but um more of a shout
out. I would really like to thank um the Shore Hills Association. Uh I spoke with Tom Hner who uh said that we are able to use their um interview with Mr. Fifer. Um, so it'll be a very useful piece of information um to add to our our tools
and and our list of things that viewers can log on and look at it. I highly encourage everyone to look at that interview. It was uh incredibly well done. Great questions and I think it'll help guide people as they're watching what we're doing. And I do encourage if
all of us haven't watched it all the way through um to watch it and perhaps if you have watched it, watch it again because I think it's really it's got a lot of really important things for us to consider to help inform our future, you know, thing. >> Thank you. >> Oh, and one more thing. Sorry, there's
part two. Um I also spoke with uh Mr. McDonald as did uh Jerry earlier today regarding exploring what we don't know because as somebody else said to me, we don't know what we don't know and we don't want to make recommendations on
things that could cause issues in the future. So in order to explore if we're actually exploring making a recommendation to go from five to seven, we should really not just have you focus on talking to people how they feel as TC
members, but find a a BA, a business administrator who is has been working with a group of seven because there was a concern perhaps from you know someone saying well gosh that's two more personalities, that's two more people I have to talk to or train and now more people have to worry about in town hall
that there's another two bodies to, you know, to to get them up to speed. So, um, Alex said he would love to sit down with us with you and I and meet with the other business administrator to ask the questions that perhaps you and I don't have the wherewithal for the day-to-day business and how it affects the town.
Um, so I'm grateful to Alex McDonald for lending his time once again. >> And I'd just like to add on to that, Dr. Khan and uh Joanna Parkens have interviewed uh Alex McDonald twice so far and everything. So this will be a
third time. We're very uh grateful for him to give us his time. >> All right. Um >> I have one small um so there has been discussion recently in terms of number of candidates that run in partisan versus nonpartisan elections. Um, so I
started doing an analysis of different towns with councils and mayors. You know, mayors obviously one seat, but councils might have two or three seats up at a time. Um, how many people ran for those elections, comparing a partisan versus nonpartisan and just collecting all that data and just having
one. >> That's great data. Yeah, that's great data for us to have the public to have. So, that's smart. Thank you. >> I'm working on compiling that. >> Anyone else? >> We're good. >> All right. Uh public comment. To speak during the public comment period, please
follow these instructions. Ensure your Zoom uh display name shows your first and last name. Click the raised hand button. You will be called upon in order and promoted to panelist. Please turn on your video when called to speak. Clearly state your full name and whether you are
a Milbourne resident or a business owner to facilitate an orderly meeting and permit all to be heard. Please limit your comments to three minutes. A reminder that the public comment period is an opportunity for residents to share their views with the commission. Commissioners will not respond to
questions or engage in dialogue during your speaking time, but we'll carefully consider all comments at the end of the public comment period. Question questions and discussion may be addressed at the chair's discretion. Is there anyone that would like to speak now or we're going to have another
public uh question and uh answer period at the end? Anyone on on on Zoom? >> Uh if anyone on Zoom wishes to speak, you may raise your hand now. >> No one wishes to be here. >> Okay, good.
>> I now close the first public comment period. Are there any comments from the commissioners regarding comments made by the public? Since there were there wasn't any. Let's continue on old business interviews. Tonight we have the distinct pleasure of
interviewing the current mayor of the township of Verona, Dr. Christopher Tam Burrow. Dr. Burrow was first elected to the Verona Township Council in 2021 and had and reelected in 2025. He has served
as mayor since 19 uh since 2023. He began his public service for the township of Verona as a member of the local emergency medical service and deputy coordinator of the township office of emergency management. Chris is a teacher of political science,
economics, and law at Ferona High School. He is additionally an adjunct uh professor in the doctor of philosophy and education programs at Cwell University instructing uh classes and educational policy legal issues and
contract negotiation. Chris serves as a a consultant for labor unions focusing on contract negotiations and enforcement, mediation, arbitration, public policy, budgeting and finiary matters. Without further ado, uh let's
start asking um Dr. Tamaro a question. Uh Dr. Could I just call you Chris? >> Yes. Yes, that works for me very >> My name is Chris also. It's it's it's
easier for me. So, um uh >> Oh, oh, yeah. I got another I got another sheet here. So um >> Chris, can you briefly describe Verona's
uh current form of government? Who holds the levers of legislation and executive power? What is the council size? How does elections work? Partisan or nonpartisan term lengths frequency? And
how long has Verona operated under this structure? And if you want me to go back, I'll to that question, you know, I will. >> No, you're you're all right. Thank you. Uh, first off, it's it's a pleasure to be here and thank you for the invitation. Um, don't often get to
reflect necessarily on our system of government because that's just what it is. I do have a recommendation before I answer your question because I'm a politician and I can't just answer the question you asked. Um when you're talking about uh talking to town administrators the recent not the
current the immediately prior town administrator Verona is a gentleman by the name of Joseph Diarco. Uh Mr. Jarkco had been a town administrator for 55 years um in some capacity or another and he has worked in burough form of government as a manager as an administrator attachment committee form
of government um and he is one of the most distinguished he's retired for like the 19th time now um but he is a wealth of knowledge related to New Jersey municipal government operations um and
if you would like to get in contact with him I I heard you talking about administrators he would I'm sure would help you. His wife uh is the burough clerk of Bloomfield as well. So they're a they're a um a very government-oriented uh family, but he
phenomenal resource and we were very lucky to have him for three years to fill a a big gap that we needed filled. Um as far as Verona, we operate under the the Falconer Act council manager uh form of government. Um, I think you had
prefaced before that this was decided in a in a referendum back in 1986. Um, and it's we are nonpartisan. Traditionally, when I ran in 2021, our elections were held in May. We did the May nonpartisan
election. Um, and then we did that in 2023 as well. Our elections are every two years. In one of the two-year cycles, three members of the township council are up for election and in the
other two-year cycle, two seats are up. Um, we are nonpartisan and and happy about that and I'm sure we'll get into that later. Um, and our term lengths are four years. Um, so we we fit into to
that framework pretty well. Um, and and that's what we did. So, we we did move the elections and I'm sure you'll ask me about this from May to November. Uh we we very much liked our May nonpartisan elections. And when I say we, I royal, I
suppose. But um what was happening is as more municipalities started moving away from the main municipal. So South Orange for example uh moved away for the main municipal election the cost of the main municipal is
actually borne by the municipalities and not by the county. Um so the county has to divide its static costs um among all the participating municipalities. So, we started to see the writing on the wall
that running one election was costing us about $75,000. And we did not have access to easy access to things like early voting because that would expand um the the cost pretty significantly. Um and there was some discussion and I'm
sure we'll get into that later, but we did this was the first November election um that we had with a record voter turnout uh for many reasons. And so we've just experienced a pretty significant shift in the way we conduct
our elections as well. Um so it's an exciting time for Verona government in that way. >> Uh thank you. Um so you actually answered uh question number two I had but um
part B of um question two is um how did it impact governance moving from May to November? I I think that's a it's a great question and it's one that I think I'm I'm still
don't have enough data to necessarily answer because it's only been a few months in that system. But um I can share some thoughts. The first has allowed us to uh use budgeted money for other things and in the the current tax cap
environment that was very important. Um as far as government governance goes um it hasn't really affected I think our operations um as municipality. One interesting thing that we had to do in
the short run was to to actually extend our own terms which was a very interesting experience in that we actually we by ordinance we were able to extend our own terms for 6 months in order to extend to move the election. So that was interesting. It
was something that we were all kind of working around one other. >> So you don't have a gap, right? >> So no, we did we did not create a gap. Um instead of doing a referendum on this matter, we the council actually passed an ordinance. We were allowed to do
that. You can only do it once every 10 years. So uh to change your election from May to November. So we cannot make a change for 10 more years after this point. Um so we opted to and I think the from discussions that a lot of us had um
it was clear that not all of the public but you know enough of the public wanted certainly wanted to move the elections to November. You have things like ballot fatigue, election fatigue, um that were causing that. And a lot of people moving into Verona, as I'm sure you're seeing
in the Milbourne, Short Hills area, are coming from Manhattan, Brooklyn, Philadelphia, places like that. And this idea of a many municipal election was was very alien to a lot of people. Um and our voter turnout was not as high as
I would like it to be, right? Um and it creates a very interesting question when you have a main municipal of voter mandate. Um because you you have the the electoral results of the individuals who participate in the election, but when
that's not even a majority of the town participating in the election, that that is an interesting question. Um so we moved the elections to November and had very very high voter turnout. Um and I can't give the exact number but it was somewhere around 70% even if a little
higher. Um >> 70% of the folks uh in >> of the registered voters. Yeah, it was it was significant. It was I mean it's huge. >> Um we it was very it was a lot clearer that there was an electoral mandate for the
individuals who who won the election. Um so that is is a helpful form as well. We had instead of having, you know, 1,800 votes decide an election or 1500 votes decide an election, it was your top voter getters were close to 4,000 votes
in a town of about 15,000 residents, about 13,000 registered voters. Um, so you actually had, you know, a pretty significant statement from the public in that way as far as who they wanted in office, which was which was helpful, I think, in a lot of ways. uh especially
in Verona when we're going through a lot of very significant questions right now like the construction of a public safety complex um uh completely revitalizing a lot of our public our water and sewer infrastructure um which creates a rate
paying affordable housing as you guys are dealing with as well um and many other pretty hot topic items some recreation uh facility upgrades and it was helpful to know from the public that there was support to continue the work
that we had started. So that was really important to to know as well. So I think probably the best way that it changed governance is >> that we knew what we were doing was what the public wanted us to do. >> Got at least for the most part. Not all
the public is knocking on doors. The public is not saying we agree with everything you're doing. But what I was hearing from a lot of the public, at least the ones that were receptive of my knocking on the door. Not everybody was, of course, but uh was that we think you're generally the town is headed in
the right direction and that was really important to see. So um that was the biggest item and it gave us this mandate to move forward on a lot of very complex issues that some governing bodies might be a little more concerned about approaching because uh of that reason.
So, and that's another nice reason about having elections every two years versus every year is it allows the council to work for two years or >> or a year and 6 months before election cycle comes in and really allows you to
work together as a team and tackle a lot of these issues without things going on hold because of elections or um or changes in the in the landscape creating, you some issues that make decisions more difficult to make. So
that's positive in that way. >> Thanks, Chris. Let me go back to um question one. Um yeah, you answered most of it, but um this one um who holds the levers of legislature
legislature and executive power. So in Veron under the council manager form of government the township council is purely a legislative body. Uh we do not hold executive authority the township manager is both the chief executive officer and chief
administrative officer of the government under the Faulner act. Um so this differs from a lot of the other the more traditional burough form of government which is somewhat unique to the state of New Jersey. Um, and even the township committee form of government is, as I'm sure you're aware, um, but the township
manager is the is the CEO and the chief administrative officer. Um, there are by statute some tasks that the mayor still has to perform um that are not shared by the rest of
the council. So certain appointments. So the mayor appoints the environmental commission. However, the township of manager appoints the shade tree commission by by state law, by ordinance. Um, but the our township manager takes
recommendations from the council on those appointments. Um the um the mayor also appoints the alternates to the um board of the zoning board of adjustment as well, but not the rest of
the zoning board members. Um and the mayor designates a chair of the environmental commission. Um I'm just trying to see if there's anybody else in there. The only appointment, so the council appoints all of the rest of the committees. The council appoints the township of manager. The council
appoints the township attorney um by by virtue of having to approve a professional services agreement, but really by name of the individual the township council, the the attorney council with an S versus a C. Um and the council appoints the municipal clerk. Um
though our municipal clerk is tenured, so that that has not been something the council has had to address. Um, we also have some say in an appointment of chief financial officer, but it's still a little um
it's a little there there's some questions we we still need to answer on that. But in Verona, we were all on the same page, the manager and the council on uh appointing a new CFO. So, it wasn't an issue. But because the CFO hurt holds some statutory authority that reports directly to the council, that's
there. The mayor also um separately is performs weddings and and traditional things like that. Has proclamation power um and um signs official documents. So I have to sign all the bonds and and all of those items and I have to execute
various things from the state. So even though the tantra manager has some of that authority, the state still recognizes the mayor's having to attest uh to a lot of the the state documents as well. Thank you. >> And just to confirm, the mayor is
elected by the council or by the voters directly? >> The the mayor is elected by the council. Um I it is technically an election. Um though a lot of folks use the term appointment, which isn't technically the correct term. It's not an appointment, but um because you are you are electing
from among your mayors, but we use them interchangeably. >> Okay. Okay. Uh Verona's council members serve four-year staggered terms with elections every two years. Some of our phase one
respondents felt that four-year terms are too long, that annual elections provide better accountability and keep elected official closer to their constituents. Others argue that the longer terms with staggered elections
strike the right balance between continuity and accountability. How has that structure worked in Verona in practice? Does the two-year election cycle provide enough continuity? And do four-year terms feel appropriate or too
long? Chris, >> that's a fantastic question. I think the four-year term is just right. um you're in that Goldilocks kind of situation with the four years and and I'll offer why. Um one of the beauties of our system of
government is that as I said before that we only have elections every other year which allows the council to really work together um on setting and achieving goals during that time and helping to direct the town administration and deal with capital outlay and things like
that. Um, so it allows some time. When you think about it, if you have an election every year, you are and you elect somebody new, your time where you're really able to govern without an election happening is from January to to
about March or April. Um, if you're partisan, because then you start to get into the the primary season and into the general election season. And unfortunately, a trend that that happens at least among
a lot of elected officials is opinions sometimes uh develop, we'll use that word, uh change during election cycles. Um, so you might have been on one phase and then all of a sudden you have a you have
a group of voters or supporters that are asking for one particular thing and some elected officials tend to um might make decisions or change in that direction. Uh so us having the two-year terms and not having primaries because we're a
nonpartisan town moves our election cycle only to a few months. um which is which is great in that you don't have that fatigue from too many elections like a primary and a general election. You have the right amount of time to focus on municipal issues but you're also really able to
govern in that year as well. Um so that's very important in um in my opinion in that way. Um I if I understand the desire for three-year terms and I can tell you one of the consequences or having election every
year or three-ear terms. Our school board has three-year terms and you always have somebody running and what has actually happened is we have fewer candidates running for school board because you have so many frequent elections and a lot of people like hey I
don't want to run every 3 years right because running for office is very timeconuming um and when you're looking for good people in municipality you really want to draw the individuals who are going to put the time and effort into governing so um we actually have
some fatigue and we've had in several town council elections um uncontested elections. The most recent one we had two people run for two seats, two newcomers. So, you didn't have a big pool. And part of when I was talking to people about it, they said, "Listen, we don't want to run again in three years.
We'd rather a four-year term." And if you model the the state assembly has an election every two years for the entire state assembly and then the Senate is every four years. Um, so you have that as a really good model of just about the
the right time um for that purpose. >> Thank you, Chris. I'm going to uh turn the next questions over to Commissioner Joanna Parker Lens. >> Thank you. Hi, nice to meet you. Thank you so much for being here. Um, we are
going to this section uh regarding nonpartisan elections. Um, in our phase one interviews, some respondents argued that party labels give voters a useful signal about a candidate's governing philosophy, even if imperfect. In Verona's nonpartisan system, how did
voters learn about candidates without that shortorthhand? Has the absence of party labels made it harder or easier for voters to make informed choices >> in your opinion? >> What a great question. And there is a very long answer to your to your
question. So I will try to make it as succinct as possible. There's an old saying that I'm sure you you have heard that there's no Republican or Democratic way to fix a pothole. Um and that's the philosophy that that we have in Verona is so much of party politics is based in
ideology. Um and a lot of those ideologically sensitive issues that are happening are really happening on the state and the federal level. The decisions that we're making on a municipal level generally are not aligned with some greater ideological
perspective. Um so that's the that's the first thing I would I would like to throw in there. Um as far as that, so how do how do voters know? I think the beauty of the nonpartisan model is that
voters actually have to form a different set of criteria in order to cast their ballot. What I mean by that is it's very easy to say, okay, this person is an R or this person is a D. I'm going to vote in that direction.
I'm going to vote a line. Um without really knowing what is what is happening. um the municipal government is so sensitive to very significant structural and very nuanced issues that
don't really have a place anywhere else in government that that is a really kind of short-sighted approach unfortunately. So how do voters find this out? Well, a lot of our voters that you will see really consume media. Unfortunately,
with the the death of local media, that's an issue. In Verona, we have a hyper local um uh online newspaper called my veronj.com and uh the editor interviews all the candidates with questions. Uh and
they're not advanced questions. She does a really good job. Um, in addition, it voters actually are then more likely to follow individual candidate social media publications and things like that. So, it's very interesting is what I was
knocking on doors, which is probably one of the most significant ways voters find out about what we're talking about is retail politics is very much expected in Verona. Um, and people would say, "Oh, I read your website or I saw something on your social media." So people were
engaging even if they weren't necessarily following a website or a social account, they were engaging. So I think that's a big part of it. We also do voter forums uh council forums that are attended in person and publicized um
online as well and and published. The junior women's club hosts it as a nonpartisan um experience as well and that gets that gets pushed out. Um, other we'll have sometimes smaller voter forums. So, we have a we have a large luxury apartment
complex in town, the Clariches, and they we didn't have it this past year, but they've had voter forums before because they have some very specific issues related to um to them as well. What it really does is it it pushes the voter to making some decisions. And one of the
things that I think occurs naturally as a result is that there is a certain amount of incumbency advantage because um the the incumbents um have name recognition. But when you're really looking at at how um
people are making decisions and we're in small communities, it's often word of mouth. I know this individual. I've seen them in action. You should vote for them. It is going to going doortodoor. it is having meet and greets. These things are not proforma in
a nonpartisan election cycle. They're actually very much required and very um influential on the election results. Um in addition, a lot of people choose to advertise. I didn't do any paid social
media advertising um in the election last year and was the highest vote getter. Um but others did a lot of paid advertisements. Um, and then we do traditional mailers. So, I send a glossy mailer out to every every house in town.
Um, and do some focused mailings on specific issues to targeted demographics uh without giving up too much campaign uh >> uh strategy. Uh, but that certainly helps to get the message out to individuals as well. And I think that
there is an assumption that if you don't have the party identification, it it ties a hand behind the voters's back in some ways, but in reality, I think it actually informs the voters more because they have to go to the candidate and
understand in addition to the candidate going to them. So I think that's a genuine advantage. It was a lot more evident when we had May elections because the only thing that was on the ballot was municipal matters. So you had
a very hyper local election in that case. When we started hitting uh the November elections, one of the interesting things questions that I started to get asked that I was not when I ran in May was who are you voting for for governor? Yeah.
>> So, individuals are asking me that question and my answer is I make that decision in the voting booth. Um, I am a I'm an unaffiliated voter. I do not subscribe to a party. Um, and um, you know, so in many way I won't give you my
whole personal story, but um, there's, you know, a lot of reasons for that, but um, anyway, so people would say, "Listen, I haven't made that decision yet. I have the philosophy of I'm not making that decision till very close to the election in case something happens
and I find new data that suggests that maybe the person I was thinking of just does not deserve my vote at this point. Um so I think you had a lot of that and and also you have a lot of name recognition. Um
we have a lot of community events and being seen in community events sending out a mail or with your face on it. people put a a face with a name. That's actually very helpful as well. >> Can I just ask a really quick follow-up question that we don't actually have
here and I know we don't have all night and we appreciate your cander. Um I know some people have made comments that if we switch, you know, one switches from partisan to nonpartisan that you all of a sudden have to raise more funds and the people who raise the most funds um
or spend their own money get elected. So, um, the mailers are expensive and sometimes those are covered by an R or a D. Did you find that restrictive when you were running as, you know? >> Um, no. And I run I run my campaign like
I run the government. Um, and that is very very fiscally conservatively. Um, and and that's a that's a big part of it. So, I you can look at our ELAC filings, but I think I spent about $11,000 um on an election and that was it. Um
and that included my mailers, that included lawn signs. Um I didn't do I didn't do social media advertising. Um but it was a lot of mailers, events, things like that. the the second place vote getter who was I think 13 votes behind me, uh, Deputy Mayor Jack
Makavoy, he spent less than $6,500. He didn't even have to file an R1 in order to do that. So I actually think it it ends up by having causing all the elections actually cost less for everybody because you don't have that
party money involved and it brings down the the cost of elections and um so that that's my interpretation but I didn't I didn't have any any corporate donors. I didn't have any um any pack contributions or anything like that. The
first time I ran, I did have a significant pack contribution um that was well advertised um because I the New Jersey Education Association provided me the maximum contribution because I'm a member of it. Um and so that helped. But
I in my first election as a as a challenger, I think I I spent all things said and done about 13,000. I I I had several thousand dollars left over in my campaign coffer. Um so you know you have
to I think if you instead of saturating um with very party oriented publications I think if you strategically communicate with the voters you can do it at a lower cost and be much more effective because
you are communicating on issues and not on personality and you're communicating on issues rather than ideology. Um, so you can write more and and say a lot in in a few words. >> Thank you. Really appreciate that. Okay, let's go on to our next question. Um,
one concern raised in our interviews was that without party infrastructure, financial support, we'll tackle that one. Organizational backing, door-to-door help, running for local office becomes much harder, particularly for firsttime candidates without an existing public uh pro political
profile. What has your experience been with campaign costs and fundraising and nonpartisan system? Um I mean you tackled part of it. Is a competitive campaign achievable without party support? Just elaborate a little more. >> Yes, I I would say 100%. I as said I've
been an unaffiliated voter since I ran um the first time um and had success in both elections. I think part of it is the nice thing and I think one of the issues that people find with not having
a partisan system or primary is that eliminates some of the vetting involved in an election. But I would suggest that there is more vetting when you have an independent running or you you have um nonpartisan elections because you are
now putting yourself out there and you have to build that support. So what it does is it puts you in a situation where you have individuals running that have some kind of base of support. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's it's a party,
but it could be um a civic organization that one's been a member of. The Lions Club, for example, um a religious organization. You you build people, you know, and it's not like those organizations are helping you in name, but the individuals that you're meeting there. You your your friends that that
you've met in town or the, you know, the parents of children you're your children are friends with, the people you've coached with, you start to build a base of support. So, I never had an issue finding volunteers. I also, and just, you know, as a caveat, I I'd been a teacher in the school system for 14
years by the time I ran. So, I had a very strong network of um individuals who I got to know through that. Um and and later on, so I never really had an issue and had been involved in a lot of volunteer organizations. Um so, it wasn't an issue for me. In reality,
we've had some I one of my colleagues who is a currently sitting council member was not a member of any organization and he he's won three terms uh to the council and that's mayor Alex Roman, former mayor Alex Roman, but he
had three won three elections the council, has no children, was not really a member of civic organizations. He made a name for himself by attending town council meetings, speaking publicly, and talking about the issues, and building a
coalition with other people that were really concerned about the the tax increases that are happening in town. Um, so if you're talking about barriers to entry, Mr. Roman proved that there are none, even if you, you know, if you don't have some of those structures that
um that help. But it is perfectly possible to uh to build a campaign without them. Thank you um for elaborating. Um next question is um approximately 40% 43% of Melbourne's registered voters are unaffiliated under a partisan system.
Any of them who wants to run a viable campaign must first affiliate with party and submit to its vetting. Has Verona's nonpartisan structure broadened who runs and who wins? Or do candidates with prior party ties still tend to dominate excluding you,
>> for example? Yeah, I mean I I think that the answer to all of that is yes. So it's very dependent on the individual. You have candidate centered politics here. Um so we one of our sitting council members is the the Democratic
chairperson of the of the town. It's not and so she has a base. The Democratic party does not endorse candidates but certainly you have a structure there to help, right? Um, and you have other people that have shown up. I'm the only
person who is not a Democrat actually on on the council by by voter registration at least. And but even then, sometimes your people that are involved in the party more gravitate toward one individual versus another. Um, so in effect, you're you're kind of having a
primary within. As far as the um as far as the unaffiliated voter, I think that the when you have pretty much anybody who can run and you don't have that barrier, um you widen but because that additional vetting that's required, that
support you have to build as an affiliate, it also it narrows the candidate pool. So, you're widening the candidate pool by eliminating the barrier of getting a nomination or having to appear on a ballot as a um as a member of a party, but it also narrows
because you have to work that much harder without that pol that party structure to build structures outside of that. um or use your party structures to um to be a you know how do I say they're
not the party is not supporting your campaign but the individuals who would also be active in the party was supporting you in the campaign so those are both so it doesn't >> it doesn't eliminate the the the points of political parties
which are to organize like-minded voters um because you can access support through there, but also it allows unaffiliated voters to have that access to to office. >> Thank you. >> Is can I just ask one follow-up question
that um my commissioner uh just whispered in my ear that might be interesting to hear for the general public. Can you tell us about the party impact? You said you're the only unaffiliated and everybody else is a field of, you know, clearly Democratic voters as as you know. Um is there is
there involvement um in their elections from the Democratic party? Obviously the Democratic chair is there. So >> the so the Democratic party in Verona by its bylaws does not endorse candidates. >> Um nor does the Republican party in
Verona. Um at the same point you also you have an organization of people that have similar mindsets, right? So that plays a little bit into that um as well. So what what happens at at a party meeting and they say, "Oh yeah, I like this person." You're having discussions
or you have some of those structures that exist can still promote an election one way or another. Um but for example, we in in the last election um there were there was one registered
Republican me as an independent and um three Democrats running and one the last time she ran was unaffiliated. So she got also got elected as an unaffiliated uh got it four years ago but then affiliated as Democrat in the meantime.
And so you actually had some individuals that were more closely aligned with the the Democratic party say, "Okay, well, we like these candidates." But then you had some who are also, you know, district representatives that said, "No, we like
these candidates." So it kind of it worked a little bit for everybody. Um, so you have structures that exist there um that naturally create discussion and and uh help people to align a little
bit, but it wasn't overwhelming in any way and there's no official action. But if you're out knocking on doors for Mikey Cheryl as somebody who was or for Jack Chidarelli because we had we had a pretty active um both Democrat and
Republican uh door knockocking campaigns in town and somebody asks you and you're out knocking the door and you're like, "Okay, vote for Jack Terelli, vote for Mikey Cheryl." And somebody says, "Well, who are you voting for in November?" Those people are free to answer, you know? So, and that and that certainly
happened because people would would tell me that happened, right? On both ends. People would call me and say, "Oh, this person said I should vote for you or this person said I should vote for somebody else." Is it okay? That's their opinion. You know, you decide what you want to do. >> Thank you. Uh, Commissioner Bill. Sure.
>> Hi, Chris. Uh, thanks. Uh, my name's Corey Biller. Um, appreciate your time. Um so some of our respondents have argued that without out of party structure or party involvement it leaves a vacuum that allows other interests special interest things like that to to
to come in. Have you guys experienced any of that? >> The simple answer is no. Um the as far as you know corporate interest or something like that. What I think it you do get other interests that that will
approach you maybe like parents that are interested in a new field for for the sport for their child or um the fire department that wants a new building or something like that. you you get issue based interests but I haven't seen any um any influence by corporate interests
or packs or anything like that. >> Okay. Uh my I have a question that sort of follows up on the on the sort of question we just asked before this one about sort of involvement of of parties and and things. Have you experienced
that the unofficially cuz cuz the parties aren't permitted to endorse a candidate, but have you experienced anything that that's that's where they're unofficially it's apparent based on how they act, whether they show up to forums, whether
they're show, you know, they're they're helping, you know, go doortodoor that they're kind of unofficially supporting candidates. >> I I think there there is certainly some of that. Um and you know it was hard in this past election because you had the
gubernatorial election happening. Um so it was very difficult to disagregate what was happening for the gubernatorial election, what was happening for the local election. Um, in previous elections, I think that there was certainly some of that because those individuals are politically minded and
they're showing up and they're talking and and having those those common discussions, but in a lot of ways discussions were happening in smaller groups and because they didn't specifically endorse they they were
happening among those smaller groups of very engaged individuals and not necessarily in the larger population. if that makes any sense. Um but once again it didn't create an environment that
um excluded anybody from from winning. >> So an interesting sort of draw on that is that we have found that in some of so let's take our board our board of ed is nonpartisan election. >> Yeah. And yet over some recent elections
their party affiliation has be become exploited, become discussed, things like that. Have you found that in your nonpartisan government elections? Have people tried to identify and say, "Oh, I know that person's a R, that person's a D, like you shouldn't vote for." Have
they >> have people tried to Yes, 100%. And um and I'll give you my I'll give you my perfect example. When I ran the first time, um I I grew up in Morris County. Um I had been a
registered Republican for for a good portion of my life because it was only way to participate in the primary to choose the township council in Morris County or the township committee was the township committee was determined in the primary because it's 90% Republican, right? Um, so by by virtue of that
though I vote and supported the first independent candidate that that ran since you know FDR or something like that and he won. But um the I'm not even kidding with the FDR thing. But um then I for many reasons went as an
unaffiliated voter, but I also worked for one of the largest um special interests in the state of New Jersey that tends to align a lot more with uh democratic and liberal ideology, democratic politics, liberal ideology.
So what was very interesting is I got it in both directions which was okay don't vote for him because he is a you know works he's works for a labor union. No vote for him because he's like us because he works
for labor union. So some people like you know he's no he's he's people didn't know what I was. So people at the same time people were saying you had people in the same ideological camps saying two different reasons voting or
not vote for me because of that. It was fascinating. I confused a lot of people. Um which which is fine because what happens is it then forces people to rely on the tissue bank. So I lost votes gain votes by by that way. Since then in other elections yes I think you
absolutely have seen vote for this person because they are like me. Um, I think there there may have been a an assumption among some voters in town, individuals in town that moving the elections from May to November would make them more ideological
um and would would ride a wave in a certain, you know, toward the Democrats because of the the ginatorial election and Verona tends to um used was reddish purple when I moved here and is now, you know, purplish blue now. Um, and a lot
of people have kind of assumed that the elections would go in a particular way and that wasn't the case. So, I think it's interesting in that capacity, but you you do get a little bit of that. Um, and then what's very interesting is let's say you have a you know, one
person who's very Republican running and everybody knows a Republican. One person who everybody knows is progressive Democrat running. Okay, fantastic. You have to you want to pick three. you want to vote for three. So that's the other beauty about having the election
every two years is the person's always is either voting for two or three candidates if they choose to. But what that does is it allows a person to make a somewhat ideological voting choice while at the same time making a somewhat practical voting choice
at the same time. >> So that's one of the the great beauties of that of that system as well. >> Interesting. So, shifting a little bit from the election aspect of it, once you get elected, now you you said your council is primarily Democrat. Um,
the county at this point is is kind of Democrat. So, I I'm not sure whether whether you can necessarily answer it, but do you find issues, governance issues could be swayed or relevant to parties? So, so
you know, if you have Democrats that are majority of the the county getting county representation, funds, attention, things like that, are is that a is that something that could be a problem if if maybe the majority aren't Democrats?
>> I I haven't seen it. Um, and and the reality of it is, and I'll I'll put it out there. I the Essis County central administration as you mentioned is very dem if I if I call down to the county I'm not treated any differently because I don't have a party affiliation um and
I respect the the folks at the at the county for that the constitutional officers um our county executive and uh the individuals that work within the county I've never I haven't seen that um certainly you know if you're more involved in you know the county
democratic committee you might build some relationships there, but I haven't seen that really interfere um at that in that time at all. >> What do you say to the hypothetical question? It's like, okay, sure, you're independent, but everyone knows that the rest of the council is Democrat, and so
that's why they give you the time a day. Well, I it's it's it's an interesting one of those interesting questions because um some of the Democrat council members who are registered Democrats tend to um be a little bit more fiscally
conservative or or don't agree necessarily ideologically with the Democratic party on everything, but they've always been Democrats or or something along those lines. Um, so we have a lot of diversity intellectually among the council and that is known that is appreciated on the county and the and
the state level. So I've never seen that necessarily as a problem. Um, and I haven't seen any push where individuals have been excluded or or or run over because they didn't fit into uh
that certain demographic that would get more attention than than another. And as far as in in your history, because you've had some history, as far as day-to-day governance between the the committee members or council members, not committee members, um have you seen
any issues created by even though you're nonpartisan elections, created by partisan affiliation, >> uh for example, in in selecting the mayor or deputy mayor, voting for the the mayor or deputy mayor?
I think that's probably less party affiliation and more um uh more personal alignment among the council. So I'm the only non-democrat on the council and I've been the mayor twice.
>> So if that kind of answers that answers that question. So >> so it doesn't I think it looks at it that way. But you know and I'll be we've had I was both of my elections were 3-2 votes. Right. Because but that wasn't
necessarily about party. It was more about you had another individual wanted to be mayor. Um and you had three individuals that that thought a different person should be mayor and and that was that. Um and and we can kind of get into that if
you want to ask questions about the the mayor role. Um so I really didn't see that play in. >> We are going to do that in the ne next round of questions. So we we can but just to put a bow on the sort of partisanship >> I wouldn't I wouldn't discount it to be
fair if you had if you had three Republicans two Democrats on the council or something like that. I wouldn't discount that there would be some affiliation but one of the important things to note is that
those positions can be collaboratively determined. So in order to do the right thing for municipalities and and I can't get into I I keep those conversations confidential with my colleagues and and things like that on how certain things
are discussed and and there's obviously critiques about that but the the reality of it is you might have it more in that case but I also think it provides a really good opportunity to not necessarily have to
have that party loyalty determine who the mayor is when the time comes. It releases individuals from that expectation and now makes it a choice rather than an expectation which is empowering.
So, just to put a bow on on this partisan talk, is there any aspect that we that we haven't asked you about that that we're we're missing uh that that partisanship, either pro or con um that you've experienced and and any trade-offs to being nonpartisan
versus partisan? >> It it's very hard to answer the partisan question because I don't know why everybody's coming to the table when they have something. I think the reality of it is it's not as much about partisanship, it's about who has the better organizing thoughtful. So if you
want to make change and you're on the council and you want to get the public engaged, it's and you're let's say in heavily involved in the regular public organization, the Democratic organization, you have a built-in
organizational system, emails, phone, things like that to reach voters and say, "Here, show up at a meeting and discuss something." Okay. So I would say that certainly has probably played a role more so than just party
affiliation. It's the the access to individuals because you have an affiliation rather than the affiliation itself. >> Thank you. You've finished. >> Yeah, I can go on.
Let me just uh let me just ask you about uh our Essex County Executives. So, in nonpartisan for a county road, there's a pothole or something or or or a tree that needs to
be taken down that's on a county road and you call up, you know, our Ess County Executive Joe D., is he responsive to you being nonpartisan? So I yeah and I think if we have an
issue that that there is um you know the county the county wants in Essex really wants to partner with the locality. So every county has a um um every county has a um uh every
municipality I'm sorry has a county liaison. >> U so we have direct acts. Ours is a gentleman by the name of Jay Culture is deputy county administrator. He comes to our council meetings and that he's our first line of defense and he works with everybody. Um the nice thing though
about our form of government is it really shouldn't be me calling the county executive to get that pothole fixed. It should be the township manager calling the the director of roads and bridges
to get that pothole fixed. And what that does is it it eliminates some of that away. If we need something big, sure. But I can tell you we, you know, we're looking at building a a substantially,
you know, new public safety complex. Um, that the county Improvement Authority is going to do the financing for. They're not paying for it. We have to pay them back. But with their bonding power, it significantly will reduce the the bond price. um and that our township former
township manager Mr. Darco went and sat with the county executive and had that conversation. I didn't necessarily need to be there. >> So on the county level it's not as important. It >> and in reality I don't think it's the party piece as much as possible. I think
on the let's say on the state level um or on the the federal level the mayor position is actually very important toward those things. So I I needed something from uh Cy Booker's office at one point, Senator Booker's office, and
I said to the township manager, Mr. Darco, today, can you call down to Senator Booker's office? And it was about congressionally directed spending. And he said, no, if you if you want to do that, why don't you call? And I said, why? Joe's like, well, because I answer
the phone for the mayor, right? And I'm like, I'm just a small town mayor or whatever. I certain I called and I was on the phone with the the district director very quickly more quickly so probably than if a staff member called. So I think that's less about party but
more about role, >> right? Um so that's I think that's a piece of it. But I think the Essex County does a good job in um you know in listening to our concerns. We don't always get everything we want. Uh but especially on the roads and bridges side
we have Verona Park. If we have an issue with drainage or something like that and we report it, it gets it gets fixed. if they're putting some facility in and we can say, "Hey, can you they put pickle ball courts in in our um in the the park near a residential neighborhood and
said, "Can we can you ordain these or do some posting?" They say, "You can't use them after a certain hour because pickle ball is allowed." And they did it. They're not they're not really looking um for that. And they're they're open. We are included in everything they do.
Um I I can't say nicer things about um how we've been treated. In some cases, you also have to use your who you know. So maybe if if I don't get as far somewhere, I might ask a colleague who has a relationship with somebody in the
county to to make that phone call. Um you can't you can't govern with ego when you're a small town in a really big county. >> Thank you. Uh Commissioner Shan Tana. >> Sure. Chris, nice meeting you and thanks for your time. My name is Sean Aktana.
I'm going to focus on governing body size for a minute. So what we're trying to uh solicit opinion on is is a five member body effective? Do we need seven or nine or five versus seven is really a question for us. The pros we have heard
for a larger committee is allow for more functional subcommittees, distribute workload more effectively, raise the threshold for organizational capture and some others have said you know recruiting qualified candidates for a larger body
uh is a is is an issue and having too many opinions could be an issue. With your experience with a five member council, what do you think of the five versus seven member debate? Thank you. >> It's it's hard for me to judge the seven member council because I don't sit on
one. Um, for sure. And at the same time, I think the first question you need to answer is what is your system of government going to be? >> Of course. Yeah. >> And in a burough form of government, a six or seven member council makes a lot of sense because you're you're very much
a legislative body. Um, where your mayor has that executive authority. When you're in a township committee or council manager form of government, it's really a question of how many elected officials are you going to ask
your manager or administrator to manage. So one of the most important things that you need to be able to communicate is consensus of the council to the administration. Right? So the in our form of government, the town
administration has a lot of authority. Though our township administrators, our managers consult the council on a lot of items. They don't have to. We don't hear personnel issues and stuff like that. Um unless they become lawsuits or collective bargaining or something along
those lines, but your manager has to effectively manage the personalities on the council in order to ensure that everybody is heard. Um, and you can't necessarily get everybody's opinion in every decision,
but adding two council members makes that 40% more difficult. Um, because now you're asking if the manager wants to straw poll council members on an item, they're calling five people and now they're calling seven. um
and you have now seven people who are asking your administration to craft recommendations in a certain way or when something comes before the council you have now have seven people asking questions. I think that that's what you need to consider. So if you opt
to go to a a manager form of government or a powerful administrator form of government, my recommendation is to keep it five. If you would opt to go to I I don't know why you would do this but go to the burough form of government or something like that it would make sense
to to have more people on the council in my opinion. >> What do you what do you think of subcommittees in particular? Because with a five member body you three is a quorum so you have you're restricted to two members on a subcommittee. Do you think three members would be better? >> Correct. So it it's very interesting.
Our township of uh charter specifically um uh forbid standing committees. >> Okay. >> We have done special committees. So one of the things that I did when I came on the council is recommend we do special committees on on some outstanding issues
and that was helpful when those committees reported back and that worked. We got a lot of things in motion as a result. Uh we haven't done that in a little while because we're dealing with so so many big things that everybody's involved. Um the the issue
sometimes with the the subcommittee is that you are you're still in many ways by its nature having to act as committee the whole because that subcommittee needs to consider what the rest of the council is
going to be okay with um before putting out a recommendation that they know is is going to be perilous or something like that. So, you have to have a lot of communication. Um, it's hard for me to answer that question because I haven't seen
>> three versus versus two. Um, so I won't answer the question. Um, I can see your concern there, but also understand that the more subcommittees, the more people you have on subcommittees, you're now putting your attention administration in
the position where they're dealing a lot with those matters and maybe not dealing with other pressing concerns that that have to happen when they're dealing with more personalities and more committees and things like that. >> That's a very interesting perspective. Thank you. Uh we touched on this a
little bit, but if I had to ask you uh the mayor being elected by the council, how does that process work in practice? Is it contentious, collaborative, transparent? How would you characterize it? I mean, you told us what has happened, but >> yeah, I mean that my first mayor
election um was a was a 50- vote for mayor and deputy mayor. Um I I'm not going to get into to how that 50 vote happened. Um because I those are I consider those my conversations with my
colleagues confidential on those ways so you can have open astonish conversations. I think that's very important. Um but there were discussions. I will put out that there were discussions because there were two people who wanted to be mayor at that point. Um and then you know a an
arrangement was was was developed. Um so you know that's that's uh in one of the circumstance and then we've had three too. Yeah, if you're in a situation where two people definitely want the position, you know, you get into the point where can you develop
consensus by could somebody be deputy mayor or um does somebody want a seat on a on the planning board or on a public safety committee or somebody along those lines that has um
more influence on some day-to-day decision-makings in the municipality. Um, so you have those kind of things. That's often of what is put out there. Um, I the process happens in front of the public as far as, you know, you're
you're casting a vote at that point. Um, so I think that that's out there, but it does require conversations. If you don't want the first thing to happen to a new council be to divide the council, those conversations should happen. um in in
confidential uh fashions. Um otherwise you're you're hashing out some things and and you can't really come back from that if you do it in public necessarily and and have an honest conversation. So the trick is if you want to have an honest conversation needs to be done um
informally in that case. >> Understood. Uh do you think the residents understand how the mayor is elected? because we find that uh in the case of our township, not many people are aware that they don't directly elect the mayor and the committee in our case
and council in your case elects or elects the mayor. >> Some do and some don't. Um people that move in don't understand as much. People have been around for a while do. Um a lot of people didn't understand until we had a contested
mayor vote and there was some media coverage associated with that. Um, and the media was very explanatory. Um, and you had you actually had people show up and say before the vote happened, you had people say, you know, you should
vote for this person for mayor. Um, and um, you know, that happened. I I didn't ask people to do that on my behalf. Um, but that was the the reality of it. So, that actually brought some press and and
there was some discussion about that. Um so some people understand I do spend time explaining to um voters what my role is and people who reach out. So I actually have developed
so somebody says hey um you know just emails me with an issue and ask me to do something you know public works didn't pick up my garbage. I get that question a lot. Email a lot call a lot. Okay, understand that the detachment manager
and the superintendent public works actually administer the garbage contract. Um, as and I say in our form of government, the the township manager is the chief executive and operational officer in the municipality. But I will forward this email, copy him
and follow up with him on your concern. That's how I deal with that. Um, but I will educate people every every possible time I can and I do that a lot running. Some people don't understand. I think it's more so done now where people get
it. Uh, because we don't eventually people, you know, most people understand because they're not electing, they're not voting for a mayor, >> right? >> So, they know that they don't choose the mayor. They may not know exactly how the mayor is chosen. Um, but certainly that's a piece of it. But I I tend to do
a lot of education on what my role is. I refer to myself as the ask the asker and chief because if a resident reaches out to me um I'll say listen I got it. Let me go make a phone call on your behalf and I
can do that. But I did that as a council member. You know people's people who voted for me they're they're you know they had issue with their sidewalk and they didn't hear back when they sent an email. Okay, forward me the email. And oftentimes that's just enough, right, to to get attention to a matter. Um,
>> or people didn't vote for me, it's like, "Hey, fix this. I didn't vote for you, but you got to fix this." Okay, >> I'll absolutely fix help you fix your sidewalk because I represent you despite you not voting for me or not. It's fine. I I still like you. You're wonderful person. Right. >> So, if you were redesigning your system, would you prefer a directly elected
mayor or would you rather have it be the way it is right now? If you have a council manager form of government like we do, I would strongly and vehemently advise against a directly elected mayor.
And the rationale for that is you create an environment in which people think if they're electing for the mayor that the mayor is the CEO and they're not. And you are setting up the municipality for for a lot of misunderstanding.
If you don't have a directly elected mayor and a council manager form of government, the it operates much better. I think the classic example of a of a town where a lot of people don't understand what the mayor does and doesn't do is Montlair. So Montlair has a nonpartisan council
election. They have wards and things like that. They have a directly elected mayor, but they also have a council manager form of government. So that inherently creates a conflict. Um Chris,
>> didn't you just say that people contact you as mayor to get things done? So isn't it the same? >> Well, so what I educate people, >> aren't they confused either way? >> So most people, we do everything we can
to get people to email the entire council. So, we have an email form on our website that we refer everybody to that emails the entire council, the the manager, the deputy manager, the town attorney, I think, and the township clerk. Everybody
gets it and our township manager will actually respond to um resident inquiries from there. It takes a dedication from me to say and to remind people, listen, I am not
the CEO. Let me put you in the contact with the person who and we can work together. But that would be the same thing that would happen if they were reaching out to me as the sole council member they contacted because they knew me or had a relationship or something like that. when being the mayor
has a when you can really get stuff done as the mayor is with outside organizations whether with it's with um you know PSEG somebody's I I had a a uh street light shining into somebody's like living room bedroom and it took
they were talking to public works public works was calling it took a year nothing was happening I walked by with my dog one night and they saw me like hey can you do something about this I called the my rap at PSEG and they had a truck there in two days. So there are
different things that exist and I think that's more important when you when you talk about that. Um but that is also something that the council can strategically work with the mayor to help direct and the mayor can work with the the um township manager to come up
with a strategy and it really facilitates that happening. Um, so you have to educate your voters, but at the same point, you're setting your me you're setting your mayor up for failure in a lot of ways when you're having a directly elected mayor and a council
manager form of government because they have the same vote as everybody else on the council, but have a much higher profile >> and uh that creates very significant uh
challenges for that individual. I would not want to be a mayor in a directly mayor form of government if I did not have appointment authority, veto power, executive authority, things like that because you are so put under the the the
microscope when you don't have the the actual power to back up what people are asking you to do. >> All right. Um I'm going to move to the appointment process for boards and commissions. We
touched on that uh briefly. U how does how does it work in practice? Does the full council weigh in uh when you're making those appointments and what is the how does that impact the effectiveness of boards and commissions? >> Yeah. So we have an application process
when a when a member wants to be on a committee or when a member of the public they submit an application and a resume. Um and when we have openings we consider or when we have reappoint time we consider anybody out there whether somebody should continue or not. Um
often most of the time people are you know continuing their positions um sometimes or not if there are other really good candidates out there. Uh we what we do in Verona um and the picking people has changed a couple
times and but what we have kind of um coalesed around is we will rice send rice notices to anybody who has put into be on a on a um on a committee and if
there's nobody else let's say let's say there's nobody else then usually they're just appointed with a brief discussion among the council, usually on a side call or whatever. If you have a lot of candidates, um we'll actually send rice notices and discuss them in executive session. And
the reason for that is we don't want to dissuade people in the community from from putting their name out there for important boards and commissions um by having some discussions of their qualifications and and stuff in public.
But people can certainly ask for that to happen. And we actually had that happen on a planning board seat recently where we had multiple people put in for a planning board seat. One of the current planning board members requested it be discussed in in open session. Um but then you know the it's generally a bad
idea to to say something that wouldn't be considered positive um about any member of the public in a in an open session. Um, and of course there legal consequences of that um that that could happen and you just don't want to be embroiled in that. Um, so that's kind of
how we've worked it. But typically there are conversations um, you know, offline among council members. Hey, you know, this this person um, applied. What do you think? Um, we recently had a we had a a member of the
public apply who's was already on a committee applied to be on a second committee and we have a couple members of the public who are that. But I got a call from a colleague, hey, do you think we should do this? And we looked back and it didn't seem to have any conflict and there's nobody else. We really needed people for that that second board. And there were conversations
about that. Um but but generally it's not, you know, every once in a while you'll have a controversy and just certain people want one individual and certain people want another. Um, but typically we're we're really looking for people to serve on these boards and
committees and um, you know, and and most of the time we actually have a hard time filling them. So, >> have those conversations, side conversations led to any allegations of backroom dealing or affected. >> Um, I I haven't Well, the only time somebody will accuse you of back room
dealing is if if they don't get chosen or if their person doesn't get chosen. you know, nobody's use for back room dealing if they get appointed. Um, right. >> And you know, and that's a piece of it. I think I think people get it and that's why my when I became mayor and you have
some, you know, influence on the agenda and procedure and things like that. I want I really wanted to have the council discuss qualifications because the way they did it before was having like a rank choice voting procedure which made absolutely no sense to me
because you need to discuss qualifications. That was my opinion. And then we had a conversation about not wanting to do that in public. So we would discuss the qualifications in executive session with the rice notice and that's how that we kind of addressed
that. Um but I wanted the entire council to really openly discuss um I found that very important and that's how the direction we're moving in and then you know we'll we'll put out a a slate of people and um and you know
move a committee at a time um and sometimes we have unanimous often I would say 95% of the time we have unanimous consent and other times you have you very rarely get somebody who votes no on a public appointment. You might get people who abstain, but you
it's I think most council members don't want to be in the position where they're saying, "No, I do not want you, right? Maybe I just won't vote on this one." Um, but that's that's what happens, >> right? >> Thank you. Uh, Dr. Jerry Khan, please.
This is our last section, Chris, just to let you know. >> Mayor, thank you for joining us today. I found all of your responses to be very insightful. I did want to before I cover the questions that I've been assigned, I did want to go back on the directly elected mayor question just to make sure
I understand. Um I think last time when our attorney presented to us, if you do a staggered election, the mayor is if you do a directly elected mayor with staggered council manager, the mayor is elected with a minority of the council and then in the midterm it's the
majority of the council. So I think is the point that you're trying to make that the mayor is sort of if you separately directly let the mayor they might not have the majority on the council and so now you're sort of setting them up to not be able to deliver what the people necessarily
want. I guess >> correct. Okay. >> Correct. I think that's it and I and that's a big piece of that because the primary responsibility of the mayor in a weak mayor form of government is to represent the council to the people um and to run meetings and and do agenda
setting and um and perform ceremonies. It it's not that much. But yes, you could be in a situation if you elect a mayor for four years um and then the council changes, it could be a very difficult situation for sure. >> Got it. Okay, that makes sense.
>> But we just to note, we elect our mayor every two years. So anytime the council changes, we have a new mayoral election. So the council term is four years, the mayor's term is two years. >> Okay? So you might have a you could end up in a situation where you voted the
people voted for a mayor, then majority of the council turns over and now the mayor is no longer, you know, in control necessarily of a majority of the council. I would say instead of using the word control, I would say the mayor doesn't sufficiently represent the
opinions of a majority of the council. Yes. And now that can force either could force consensus building or it can breed resentment that is not healthy for the community. >> If you're directly elected mayor, it's a four-year term.
>> Yeah. So, it's it's the same issue just for a smaller period of time. Uh well, if a majority of the council turns over, you would have a mayor every two years, right? So, >> but they have a mayor every two years, so it's not an issue. >> Yeah, that was that was >> it's not an issue for us. I I've been
mayor for four years, but I was elected mayor twice. I I've been not I haven't been mayor for four years. I've been mayor I'm in my second term. So, I will serve for mayor for a little over four years because our terms were longer the first time around. But I was elected and
chosen again as mayor this year. >> All right. Now to the structure for council manager. So um in the council manager form of government, the manager's authority is defined by state statute rather than delegated by ordinance, which is how it's done in our current township committee. In practical
terms, what does that mean for the day-to-day relationship between the council and the manager and between the coun between the manager and department heads? Well, primarily I think that the having it that way means that one of the most
important decisions that the town council will make is choosing the right township manager. Um, and that is a time when you have a collaborative process and that is a time when you need to pick somebody
unanimously, right? Um, so I think that's that's item number one. Um, item number two, I think with the the manager having those statutory that statutory authority allows them to run the day-to-day operations of the town
independently of the council to an extent um because the council does not need to be involved with the minutia of the running municipality. The council needs to oversee the minutiae of the running municipality which is different and and I can clarify, right? We're I'm not
going to go out there and tell the police how much, you know, how many officers they can have on overtime at a given time, but I am going to look at that overtime budget and make sure that we are falling within that budget. Right? The the manager is going to determine
who gets hired for a position in the municipality. I'm going to make sure that the public is having good relationship with that individual, right? and we'll provide feedback to the manager. Um, you know, I'm not deciding
how many DPW trucks are on the road, right? But I once again, I'm looking at that budget. I'm looking at reports and I'm looking at the streets. Okay, those are that's very important. So, it allows the manager to spend a lot of their time delegating their own responsibility
without having to look for the council constantly. Uh, and that is, I think, vitally important to the operation of a successful community. Um I have had interactions in the burough form of government where the mayor has is the chief executive officer but then the the
administrator's chief administrative officer and it gets very confusing and a lot of municipal staff I've spoken to don't know who really they're reporting to at a given time. They have issues especially, you know, a lot of there are a lot of issues with like police departments when you have directly elected mayors because they can appoint
they they can appoint like police directors and stuff like that without the, you know, necessary the consent of it's it's very strange how that all works out. Um, but I think generally you have a much better relationship with your manager and your manager is more
likely to stay longer the more autonomy they have. But it also requires township council members who are willing to call that township manager and have a weekly check-in, a monthly
check-in, pick up the phone and say, "Do you have a couple minutes today? Can we go through a bunch of things?" The way that I don't I don't demand a lot of our manager. I expect a lot. you empower your managers to make the right
decisions. I tell him what my expectations are, right? And I and I hope the rest of the council does that. But which means I also don't have to ask for a lot. So what I found is we generally have a good relationship with our we've had three managers in my time
on the council. Uh one resigned shortly into my time on the council. We hired a manager really to fill a three-year. We hired the most experienced manager in New Jersey to fill a three-year gap. And we knew he was not going to stay longer than three years. He trained a
replacement and we hired that individual as his replacement. Right? But what it does is if I have to go and I really think something is important, I don't pester the manager with minutia. So if I go to the manager and say, "Listen, I think this is important."
they know that that is important to me and are more likely to pull the rest of the council or take it under advisement and act on it. Um, and it diminishes a lot of that resentment that
might exist from micromanaging. The last thing on earth a council member should do in a council manager form of government is to have an office in the municipal building. That is the the taupe matter. You can have a a space to meet the conference
room or whatever if you need to meet with constituents, but you should not you should not have that physical presence on a daily basis because that creates some confusion as far as how governance actually operates on an executive basis.
>> Great. Um, the council can still remove the manager by majority vote, which creates implicit leverage even if individual council members have no legal authority to direct day-to-day operation. In practice, has that dynamic ever created pressure? And how has that been
navigated? If so, >> I I haven't I don't know if it's I think there's an inherent pressure on the manager that they they need to balance all the different personalities. Our managers typically work on three-year contracts.
So, we can remove the manager, we would have to pay them uh to the termination of their contract. So, that relieves a little bit of that dayto-day threat that they know that it's going to cost the township a lot of money in that case. Um, but I think as you approach that
time, you if you have if you have people in it's it's going to be purely dependent on who is on the township council and who the manager is, you can have very different experiences. I think if you have a manager that that manages
the town but also can um can work and and manage the needs of the council, you're going to be most successful in that way. Um, but I haven't really seen I I haven't seen our council act in a way if you said, "Okay,
listen. If you don't do this, we're not going to we're going to terminate your contract." I haven't seen that. And if it gets if it gets to that point, >> you have a bigger problem with the manager or you have a bigger problem with the council. >> Yeah. >> Great. Looking back on your time as on
the council and as mayor, can you point to specific decisions or outcomes that you believe were made better or would have been made worse by Verona's nonpartisan council manager structure? >> Well, I mean, that's that's a that's a very interesting question. Um, the the
better or worse decisions. I I'll give you a generality. I think that the council manager form of government allows for um the inclusion of a lot more expert opinion in decision-m, right? Because
the manager is going to rely on experts in the field rather than ideological uh decision ideological swears, right? So, we've had to make significant decisions about should we um rebuild our our water infrastructure or try to only buy water
from outside of town when when the state changed their PAS requirements. Um there were certainly ideological pressures there related to money and and uh and potentially moving to one of these larger conglomerates or something
like that. But what the council manager form of government did was allowed the manager to line up experts as far as lawyers and engineers to provide us expert opinion in in that fashion. Um I think that definitely helped. It it
engenders the ability where we can put all of our questions to the manager and the manager's responsibility is to get those questions answered, right? versus having five or seven or nine or however
many people it's going to be having direct contact with different department heads and you not being able to to have that approach. So, we've made some significant changes in in our utilities, even our community pool where our community pools funding um was was in
the red. We had to make some very significant changes to membership structure that had a lot of concern among the community in doing that. But we had expert opinion. The manager was able to to put together uh the right the administration in order to answer those
questions. And then we were able to be the representatives of the public to say listen this is what we're hear from the public. Can we make it work? I and one of my colleagues put out a made it very public a list of recommendations, right? And when we did that, the manager was like, "Okay, this this makes sense. This
makes sense. This makes sense. This is one thing we may not be able to do this year, etc." Right? Um and it really provides for that to happen. And it allows every council member to have their voice heard because the council members are
not just relying on people who could be their allies or their opponents to listen to them. They are relying on the manager listening, gathering data, and responding to all concerns. So it it it actually
helps to bypass maybe some debate on an issue because we're focused more on getting answers. That's where that system is very strong when you're making pretty significant um financial concerns. Where it is hard is
when your manager develops a budget and that budget includes a projected tax levy and you are then faced instead of building the budget as a mayor might in a strong mayor form of government uh or a council might in certain forms of
government where they have when they have the the budget creating authority or somebody might be the you know the commissioner of the finance department or something like that where the manager has uh met with department heads already said no to a lot of things
and is now or yes to some things is now putting this to the legislature in this case the council for approval and we have to further say no uh or ask the tough questions and that's
when things get difficult where we are now in a position where though we don't directly supervise department heads, we are significantly impacting their operations through making um changes in
the budget, potentially line item changes in the budget. >> All right, our last two questions. Um, if you were advising a community like us um, that currently operates under a township committee, what would you tell them about evaluating whether a
structural change makes sense? >> I think you you have to determine um, why you're making the change, right? I haven't obviously read your materials for reason because I I didn't read anything on your website because I didn't want to be swayed or think I had
to answer in a certain way. Um and and that was by design. So you really have to decide why you're doing this, right? Are you are you doing it because the the public wants something? Are you doing it because you want the government to run more efficiently? Um are you doing it because what is
happening right now is not working. Um the question I would always put forward is what form of government is going to do the best for the most people? And every time I come back to it is my
opinion that the council manager form of government in municipalities the size of Verona and Milbour is the best way to do it. If you get into a like a a Patterson when you have a lot of members of the council and a lot of issues there, I
think a strong mayor form of government is the most appropriate in that circumstance because you need that political leader in that circumstance. Um but in our municipalities
the best the doing the the best for the most people in my opinion would be done by a council manager form of government. >> Great. And is there anything about Verona's experience that we haven't touched upon and that you think our commission should be thinking about that
we haven't asked? >> Um I don't think so. I I think the my only piece of advice maybe to consider is and I know you're all doing this you're you're an independently elected commission back in in 1986
when Verona went from you know had our charter commission you had eight people run for five spots. One must be very careful to not think about how individuals of the past would fit into the future government. Right?
We you have to think about ideally what do I want my government to be and how can I get individuals whether they serve on your town committee now or want to serve how they would need to fulfill the norms that that we're establishing um through
this change in government. The other piece of this that I think is incredibly important is your education plan. How are you going out to the public? Um, and you know, and obviously you have documents, proceedings, and things like that. How are you going out to the
public? Um, and explaining that because one of the things that I said that I do now is educate the public a lot on what our municipal government is like and how it operates. Um, and how Can you have a commitment
from your town administration, from your future elected leaders to continue that education so that people if they make a decision, they accept your recommendations to change the form of government, how
they can feel ongoing satisfaction with that form of government. So yes, we need to make the change, but we also need to ensure that our um our residents, our voters continue to be served and satisfied by the government. Um and I
think that's something that Verona does well is is able to consider the individual and reach the individual. Um and and I hope that that the same would happen in Milburn for sure. >> Thank one more question. Sorry, I not a
follow up to that necessarily, but something that I remember having read when researching Verona. Um, I think there's something in your ordinance where if a mayor isn't selected after some amount of time that it goes to the highest vote getter. Is is that correct? And can you talk a bit about
>> it's something like after five or seven ballots >> the if no if no mayor is chosen um it goes the highest voter in the last election. I think that is um that's statutory. So it's it's an ordinance,
but I think that there's some basis in statute on that from the Falconer Act, but I I can't tell you for sure. We have never had to use that. But what's very interesting is some people read that in the code and read it as, oh, the the highest the highest vote getter
always is the is the mayor. or every couple years when people are like, "Okay, got to choose the mayor." The the whole system shifts. Some people will be like, "Oh, no, it's the highest vote getter always gets it." And some people it's like, "Oh, no, no, it's uh this person who was deputy mayor the last
time." Or some people will say, you know, um it's it's the person who's been the longest on the council and hasn't been the mayor or whatever. Typically, people interpret that based on who they want the mayor to be. Um and that kind of gets out there. Um, so when you do
rethink the ordinances, I would look at the Falconer Act. I'm not sure that is the the best way of doing it. And the reason being um is that that now prohibits either in our system of government two or three people from
being eligible to be mayor at that point, right? So if you didn't run in the last election, you can't you couldn't possibly be mayor, which I find very strange. So, I don't like how that's worded, even though I was the highest vote getter in the in the last election. So, if I wasn't elected, you know, if we didn't have a majority, I
would have become mayor anyway. But I think that's perilous because there's you could have a brand new person be selected as mayor. And generally, in my opinion, you should serve at least a couple years
to see how the council runs, to get an understanding of the role of council member before you serve in the mayor capacity. Um, so it's not alienate your peers and and the manager and stuff like that, but that's how that's how it's done. Um, but I I would research that.
I've never had to worry about it necessarily because it hasn't been an issue. We've always uh in my time had a mayor on the first ballot uh as far back as I can remember. Um and we've had a bunch of different mayors here here and there since my time in Verona.
>> Can I ask you a foundational question? >> Yes. >> Chris, it sounds like from your answers in the context that you have a particularly engaged resident population. Is that correct?
Um, I would I would say how do we I would say yes, probably above the average engagement. Um, and for a couple reasons. We are our population is a little smaller. So, one voice, you know, carries a little bit.
Um, you know, we have about 15,000 people. So, that's a part of it. Um, but we we have a very engaged school system. So at one point I was on the street to planning committee for the school district and our mission statement was
the Rona public school is the center of an engaged community. That was what our mission statement was because our schools are very are very important part of our community and that is one big part of why our residents are so engaged
because there's you have um a lot of access to the board of ed you have a lot of access to school administration. We have elementary schools with 150 kids in them. Um, one elementary school is one around the corner from my house, but we have some bigger ones. Um, but there's a
lot of that expectation of service that exists within the school system that I think carries on to municipal government. We also have things like the the township pool that ties people to government a lot and is like it is one of the most significant drivers of
public participation. Our wreck programs are also not only for for um children but also adults are very popular and often fill up and that has gotten people engaged and we've had some issues with the water and have had to raise water rates because of this PAS stuff. So,
we've had a lot of things that have happened that have affected particular voters that wouldn't normally like some voters wouldn't be as engaged, but we've we've hit on a lot of different things as a result. You know, pilot funding, okay,
affordable housing and where that's being developed. So we have had so many issues in town that have attracted different groups that we have been much more engaged I think than most places because we're doing this all at once. Normally you you get a little time you
get a little breathing room. in Verona, we are we are just it's just one thing after another um and how we're being hit and some of that was from the can being kicked down the road for many years um prior but um but also those councils before me did a lot as well but there's
some issues you know we had a report in the 1970s that said we need a new police station and it's 2026 >> right >> so you know eventually when you know you we hired a police officer that was taller than the roof in the locker room, you know, that was that was a
significant problem, right? Um, but you know, that's one of those those things. So, I think that's a little bit of why I also credit some of my council colleagues, one in particular, um, who has really gone out and mobilized a lot
of does a, you know, um, you know, developed a very large social media presence. um you know puts up uh you know summaries of council meetings. I don't always agree with her take on the council meetings um and but it gets
voters to the point where they start asking questions or you know they'll say well I disagree with you and I'll be like actually no you don't like you know you don't actually disagree with me I agree with you but you may have read it somewhere not necessarily in the right place or whatever. Um, so that's another big piece of it.
>> This would be a good way to look at that, >> you know. So, you know, that's a that's a piece of it. Um, that would probably be the explanation. And, um, and we have a lot of people moving in from Manhattan and Philly and stuff like that who told
me they love they love this local politics. When I when I knocked on doors and people opened the door and we said and they said, "We've never had anybody knock on our door before. let alone the sitting mayor of the town. I said, "Well, I'm trying to knock on
every door." Right? And they're like, "That's something you do?" Yes, of course. Like, tell me what you're thinking about. Right. Um, now what's very interesting is because candidates for the last number of years have been doing that. It's not optional.
It's an expectation to hit every street, right? Ideally, every house um if you can. And that really, you know, when you're in a voter's living room, um, that's, you know, engages them for sure. You're on their doorstep, um, talking
about issues, that is very engaging. And it's, you can't do it, you know, in, you know, in Newark or or Montlair because you just have so many houses, right? You can't hit every probably every street. But, um, and and it's not necessarily
volunteers knocking on doors. It is the candidate. And that has significantly increased engagement but at the same time has increased satisfaction with the government because it's providing
government a face and people are articulating their satisfaction generally with the progress of the town. Um so it's very interesting. Those would be my completely nonscientific explanations with no data
to support them. Um, uh, explanations for that. >> Appreciate it. >> Uh, thank thank you, mayor. Um, was quite informative. We really appreciate you doing this. Uh, little question. Would you be willing to take some
questions from from the public? >> Certainly. >> Okay. Anyone have anything here? Anyone on >> anyone on Zoom? >> Anyone on Zoom? >> I don't think so. >> Great. Thank Thank you, Chris.
>> Thank you. And good luck to you. I look forward to reading your your report and recommendations. >> It's going to be a long one. >> I love I love long reports, so I look forward to it. >> All right. Take care. >> Thank Thank you, Chris.
>> You're dismissed. Um, okay. Very nice. Um, next item, uh, old business, uh, commission of Parkland's community out outreach. >> We're continuing the community outreach, you know, built on that list. Um, I send
to work moms, newcomers. Uh, I know that everyone here is sharing with their networks. Um I think you know we're we're encouraging people who are >> doing on self civic association >> association. Have you made any headway with civic association?
>> No. >> No. >> Um I mean I think we're we're doing our best to get out there. I think to the mayor's point is, you know, to try to get community engagement. I mean, we're we're certainly not going in the middle of the winter going knock on people's
doors, but we'll we'll we'll have to figure out how to engage more people when the report is more um you know, well-rounded. I think when it has more legs um I I don't feel like at this point or the people that I talk to, they're like, "Oh, I don't want to watch your thing. I trust you. I elected you
for a race." And I'm like, "Okay, you want you don't want any progress?" "Not now." Like, "Oh, fair enough." So, it's just kind of interesting interactions. the people that want to know, they're watching, they're looking, the few people that come here and log in. But I think it's going to be hard to get that
engagement until we have something to recommend. And I think once we have something to recommend, perhaps that's when the majority of the engagement will come in pro or against what we're saying. >> Well, maybe the survey will help in getting some. >> Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully. And the town hopefully can put it in the news in like
whatever gets pushed out um maybe on on the weekly calls. >> The weekly calls. Yeah. Are we are we live with them? >> Uh the weekly calls we are surveying. >> Oh, the surve Yeah, the survey is live. >> We can't call it a survey actually. It's just the list of questions. I keep missing it's a survey, but yes, that is live. I sent it out to all work bombs of
newcomers. I keep adding to those links. Um and we will add the interview um to Mr. Feifer to my weekly email. Um and anyone who missed last week's uh session, I highly encourage go and watch it because it's a lot of great information about the forms of
government. So, >> okay. >> Um, thank you. >> All right. Um, public comment. To speak during the public comment period, please follow these instructions. Ensure your Zoom display name shows your first and
last name. Click the raise hand button. You'll be called upon in order and promoted to a panelist. Please turn on your video and call to speak. Clearly state your full name and whether you're a Milbourne resident or business owner. uh to f to facilitate an orderly meeting
and permit all to be heard. Please limit your comments to three minutes. A reminder that the public comment period is an opportunity for residents to share their views with the commission. Commissioners will not respond to questions or engage in dialogue during your speaking time. Court will carefully
consider all comments at the end of the public comment period. Questions and discussion may be addressed at the chair's discretion. Anybody? >> Anybody on Zoom wishing to speak? May you raise your hand?
>> No one wishes to be here. >> Great. I now close the public comment period. Are there any comments from the commission regarding any comments made by the public since there wasn't any? How about this one? >> I move to close. >> I I wanted to say that.
>> We need a second. All right, let's let's uh close the meeting. Everyone in favor? I >> thank you folks for coming. Really appreciate it.