I'd like to call this meeting to order, please. I'll first >> How's that? >> I'd like to call this meeting to order this evening. Uh, I'm first going to read the open public meeting statement. In accordance with section five of the
Open Meetings Act, chapter 231, Public Laws 1975, be advised that notice of this meeting was made by posting on the bulletin board town hall on serving the officially designated newspapers. a notice stating that this meeting would
take place at the board of education building at 434 Milburn Avenue, Milbour, New Jersey at 7:30 p.m. on January 22nd, 2026. Ro >> Allison Campfield
>> here. >> Zachary Davis, >> Robert Frankle >> here. >> Brad Jenkins. >> Gary Rosen >> here. >> Justin Salem, >> Elizabeth Winga, Christine Best
>> here, >> Ray Kalcano >> here. >> Thank you. Um, first announcement, uh, Brad Jenkins, uh, having a new baby. there was a slight emergency so he will be joining us shortly so um we'll
forgive him. [laughter] Uh right now I just want to thank everyone for for really taking the opportunity for their voice to be heard. We really appreciate this. Um, I'd like to add that we all have the same shared
goal and that is protecting this community and for many it's our most significant investment. Uh so while we may have different perspectives of how best to achieve this goal, I ask that we approach this
conversation with a sense and shared responsibility and above all respect for different views. Okay. So at this time, what I'd like to do is first and foremost introduce our attorney, Katherine Cuff, and she's going to run
through a few things for all of you. Okay. Hi. Um, okay. So, before I forget to say anything, um, if you need to have a conversation amongst yourselves while anything is happen, you know, presentation being given or, um, anyone
else is giving their, uh, public comment, um, please step outside and speak very quietly because this is being recorded and the microphone is extremely sensitive. So, even if you're talking quietly in the audience, it may still get picked up and interfere with the
audio of the recording. Um, okay. So, the first thing that I the next thing I wanted to talk about was what the process for designating a historic district looks like. Um, so anyone can request that a neighborhood be
designated as a historic district, whether it's an individual, a group of individuals, um, someone from the historic commission, the TC, anyone. Okay. Um and then that's once the request is made
>> [clears throat] >> um reports get prepared and reviewed by the historic commission um to see if it warrants um if it warrants designation. And then the next, if it does, the next step is
this public hearing where we'll take your comments and the commission will decide whether or not to refer to the town committee um for further action. And this commission does not decide whether or not the a neighborhood is
designated as a historic district. We they simply make a recommendation of yes or no and then it's up to the TC to make the ultimate decision. Um, and how we got here for this specific neighborhood is that there was a group of homeowners in the
neighborhood who had requested that the, you know, the report be prepared and the process started for designating the neighborhood as a historic district. Um, so we're here tonight just to hear your comments and then for the commissioners to make a decision on whether or not to
recommend the designation. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Um before we start uh due to the audience size uh we are going to limit that to
three minutes. Um and then certainly if the three minute then everyone's had a turn you're certainly welcome to come up for a second time. We're also out of courtesy, we are going to first let the people that are affected by this
designation um stand up first. Okay? And then anyone else in the audience uh that's support of or opposed or have a story certainly we just ask courtesy to let those that
uh you know the proposed designation to be able to speak first. Um, with that said, my next speaker will be our uh, HPC consultant. Um, and he will kind of
give a history of your neighborhood and um, anything else that we need to know. >> Can I can we ask a question in the middle? >> Not yet. Can you wait and then we'll certainly move forward on that. So, Matt, please. >> Hi, everyone. My name is Matt Dan. Uh,
I'm just going to start off with some uh general historic district information. >> Let me just swear you in for real. [laughter] Um, can you state your full name for the record? >> Matthew Dan. D O H A N. >> And your position? >> Storage preservation.
>> Okay. And do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're going to provide this evening will be truthful and accurate? >> Do uh perfect. So yeah, I just like to start with some historic district information and then move on to the Woodfield uh neighborhood itself. So
designated local historic districts recognize a group of buildings, properties or sites as historically or architecturally significant and are evaluated to determine whether they are contributing or non-contributing structures within the district. The contributing resource is one that was constructed either before or during
the period of of significance established for the local historic district and retains a high degree of architectural integrity from that period. Non-contributing resource is one that was built after the period of significance or has been altered such that it no longer conveys its original
design intent nor architectural association with the overall district. Districts vary in size from many hundreds of structures to just a few. Local historic districts are only recognized and regulated by municipalities in contrast to those on the state and/or
national register. They can only be designated by local ordinance and fall under the zoning jurisdiction of an appointed citizen board called a historic preservation commission like we have in [clears throat] an HBC in New Jersey follows the municipal land use law and provides
communities with the means to ensure growth, development, and change to take place in ways that respect the important architectural, historical, and environmental characteristics within the town. Milbour is one of the leading towns in New Jersey, recognized by Preservation New Jersey as having one of
the best historic commissions by the state historic preservation office as a certified local government and only 46 municipalities out of 565. Designation does not prevent owners from making changes to their properties, nor does it require them to restore or even
fix up their properties unless they are allowing allowing it to deteriorate and collapse. Designation ensures that alterations, additions, or demolitions are in keeping with the historic character of the area. This happens through application design review or by the historic preservation
commission evaluate certain modifications that are planned for any structure within the district in order to issue a certificate of appropriateness. Now, moving on to the Woodfield neighborhood itself. Uh, the Woodfield Short Hills Estates are significant as a
distinctive example of early 20th century suburban planning and architecture in Melbourne. Established in 1926 and promoted by Philip J. Bowers and Company, Woodfield represents the later phase of the Short Hill suburban ideal, first envisioned by Stuart Hartung. A community that
balanced natural beauty, privacy, and refined residential design within commuting distance of New York City. Its curved roads, wooded lots, and architect design homes in tutor, Georgian, and colonial revival styles exemplify the inner war emphasis, the inner war era's
emphasis on craftsmanship, landscape, harmony, and exclusivity. After the second world war concluded, more structures were built in undeveloped lots, including the ranch style, modern revival homes, and many other eclectic styles. Preserved largely intact in layout and character,
Woodfield remains an enduring reflection of social, architectural, and environmental values that defines the evolution of America's early plan suburbs. Woodfield emerged in the 1920s as part of the broader transformation of Milbourne from a pastoral landscape of land estates into an elegant commuter
suburb. As older estates were subdivided, developers began crafting distinct residential neighborhoods, including Woodfield, designed to capture capture the prestige of the of the earlier estate era while accommodating modern suburban living. A 1926 map
labeled Woodfield Short Hills Estate marks the formal planning of the neighborhood showing generous lots arranged along treeine drive such as Woodfield, Grovenner, Kennallorth, Delbart, and Oakland. This wooded hilltop of perennial charm with homes designed by architects such as Kenneth
Delil reflected the refi the refined architectural styles of the late 1920s and carrying on into the 1940s. There are 54 properties located within the survey district including 26 contributing properties and 28 non-contributing properties. In summary, historic preservation on the local level
is really a catalyst that gives physical places their cultural identity and helps promote a a sense of local pride and stewardship for future generations. It is a tool that can be used to substantially contribute to the continued quality of life and economic vitality across New Jersey.
>> Thank you, Matt. Um, so at this time it we're going to start new business and so we're going to move forward on that. Um, Katherine, can whoever comes up, can you uh explain the process please for them
like their name, address? >> Oh, sure. um when you come up to speak, if you could state your full name, spell your last name, and um give your address for the record, please. >> So, at this time, we'd like to invite
people to unlock that live within the proposed district. And is the podium Sarah? >> Uh the mic's not working, so they'll just need to project, but the neat board will pick up for those watching online.
>> Okay. somebody would like to lead. Sure. I can be loud. [laughter] So, this is not working, I guess. >> Um, for the record, I'm Laura Overdeck. That's O
D E C. And I'm at 35 Porth in real estates. Thank you for having us here tonight to have this discussion. Everybody's been looking forward to it. Um, I'm here because, uh, I think I and a lot of my neighbors who live in these older homes really want to protect
something that I'm afraid we're taking for granted. Um, you know, I'm a Jersey girl. I grew up here. My parents are still here. I'm going to die in this house. Like, I'm not leaving. [laughter] I mean, not literally. I mean, um, you know, looking at the
neighborhood, it it is beautiful. It is half historic homes. And the ones that aren't historic right now are also really beautiful for the most part. They're pretty traditional styles and materials. We haven't been wrecked by anything yet. But I would say a few years ago, I
actually would have been against this. I'm a small government non-regulation kind of person. But I've been watching what's been going on in our town and we all know that there are streets where houses have been mowed down. You can build a much bigger one. people who are doing that for profit don't build with
quality and we really have some eyes sores that on certain streets that street is no longer charming. It's never going to be on a brochure advertising our town. It pulls down the property values. This hits our wallets when this happens. And I looked more then into
well what would it take to be historic? And I was relieved to find out it doesn't sound that bad. And I've done a couple things to my house. It has not been an event. I've checked to find out if the kind of roof I have, which actually is faux slate. Don't tell anybody.
And my rod iron fence are, you know, which were not super expensive, they they fit the guidelines. So, I think this is doable. And I'm glad we're here to talk about it and to, you know, work have you work with us, not against us, to save our houses. I'll tell you the
thing I'm concerned about is the outside parties, not in our neighborhood, they don't like this. They want to mow down your house. I'm hearing people do quotes for work. Someone said it was going to cost five million to renovate her house. That's just misleading. A
friend with a house that's 50% bigger just did a gut rena and addition for less than. Unfortunately, professionals are going to want to mislead us. I'm also concerned that a neighbor who has been saying he's not going to tear down the house. We've come to learn that he's
applied for a demolition permit. I mean, I have the print out of the letter saying not tearing down and now finding that out. You know, our neighborhood has never operated like this. Like, this makes me very sad and very concerned. And in short, because I see my time's
up, um I think we're at a moment, a watershed moment to see, you know, as society becomes more disposable and cheap and kind of cutting corners. This is a moment to really um preserve beautiful art. And um I don't want to be
like other neighborhoods in town where they didn't do this, they didn't go historic and now they really. So I appreciate you all listening. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. I'm Manik Bambar, current resident of
251 parts on Edge Hill Road and current owner of 23 Road. >> I'm sorry. Can you spell your last name, please? >> B A M B H A. >> Okay, thank you. >> So, first let me spell.
So I'm a founder of a sports technology company 15 years. Go to New York City 4 days a week. I'm not a builder. There are a lot of rumors which are said about me. I'm a builder. Not a builder. Never was a builder. Never be a builder.
I run my own company. Pretty big company and not a builder. That's the fact. We bought 23 in August to bring it down. as the pack and build a new home. We have been
looking for a land for 3 years in short. We have lived in Short Hills for 11 years. We went to the town and said, "We as a family, my son is there, my wife is there. We have a dream to build a new home for ourselves, not a bidder, and
can we buy this property 23 koner and bring it down and build a new home?" And the town said, "Yes, we bought it for close to $3 million." Since then, we have been working with an architect. We hired an architect. His
name is James Palano. You guys are welcome to Google him up. Very well-renown architect out of Morristown. Not a builder level architect either pricewise or quality wise. That architect takes 6 to 8 months to
design a home. A spec home normally is done in a year from the time the property is bought. Another rumor about me and our home is we're trying to build a spec home and flip a spec home. Completely incorrect.
My builders weren't not interested in that kind of business. We're trying to build our own home. We were told by the township we're legally allowed to do that. We put our own money to buy that land and build that home. We have now spent six more
months designing it. We have spent three months preparing for a demo. It's very obvious. You drive to 23 Goner, it's being prepared for demo. Nothing hidden about it. We are getting ready to bring that down as we are allowed to.
What spooked us is on 7th of January went to the town and said we got this notice what's going on over here and the town said they are not even taking any more demo permits for that area which is
actually illegal. I actually consulted a lawyer and that's illegal and we are very stressed about we have the right to bring this down and build a new home and now even clip is pushing back on this and say >> sorry your time is your your time is up
>> can I finish with 5 seconds >> now >> what we like to say at the end is we are against this thing not because philosophically we oppose it or Mark, but we are $3 million in and 3 years
looking for a property. >> Okay, >> this whole thing is putting a lot of stress on us. I have not slept for 20 days and >> fake news about calling me a builder and calling our new home as a spec home and we are trying to flip it is not a good thing.
>> I appreciate that and thank you and give everyone else a chance to talk and we certainly will let you come up again. Thank you. >> Thank you. Please feel free if you would like to say something please come up. >> So I'm going to [clears throat] try to
project my voice doesn't carry very much. Hello everyone. So I'm Capone C A P O N E. I've been a resident of Short Hills for 25 years. >> What is your address? >> 48 Pors. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So I would be a contributive house by
definition. >> Okay. Uh we moved into this house because we love the character and its historical dimension. Um we believe we are the caretaker of the house and always represent in terms of character and charms. um we've been in the house
for 15 years, but we also enjoy the neighborhood and um the charm that it has because of historic dimensions and um we've been support of the designation u again because I view this is our duty
as owner of those historical property to continue and preserve that history for the future. Thank you. >> Thank you. Yeah, I'm Theo Kun. That's KU N DTC. I live at [clears throat] 208 Forest Drive, which is in the old Short Hill
section, historical section. >> So, can we stop you just for a minute? >> Is there anyone else who is in the designated area that would like to speak? >> Yeah, they should have priority. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay, then hang on because you'll come back to us. Okay. [laughter]
>> All right. Who would like to go next? >> Thank you. >> Hi, my name is Arjunar. Um, we just closed at our home in two penn. We just closed on that address. Um, I'm a lifelong New Jersey resident. I grew up in Livingston and we plan to raise
our kids. So, I'm here with my wife. We have twins. They're four and a half years old. We have a partitionable lot. We're not anticipating doing anything to partition our lot. We're planning to stay here long term. I'm not against the historical preservation. I think it's undue burden. It places undue burden on
our on our I think our [clears throat] our families that live here. Um I want to say by those of us that live in Korth, we deeply value it beauty, character. There's a neighborhood people care for clearly. I'm very glad to be part of this community. That's that a formal historical designation is neither necessary nor appropriate here.
Pendleorth does not represent a single cohesive historic district. The homes span different eras, styles, and levels of alteration and the neighborhood has evolved organically over time. The historic designation would impose permanent restrictions and reveal financial burdens on homeowners,
limiting reasonable renovations, sustainable upgrades, and the ability for families to adapt their homes to modern needs. These are private costs without a clear public benefit. Preservation should be thoughtful and proportional. Panelwood's character is already protected through existing
zoning, strong community standards, and voluntary preservation by homeowners who value history. As you can clearly see, we can celebrate the past without phrasing the present. I respectfully ask the board to consider whether imposing an irreversible overlay is truly in the
best interest of this neighborhood and its residents. Thank you for your time and your consideration. >> I'm sorry. Can you spell your last name, please? >> Hayyangar. I Y N A R. First name is Argent Ru. Um and two Kennorth. Thank
you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. [clears throat] Please just feel free. >> Hi, my name is Austin Ozawa. I'm at 50 Woodfield uh Drive. Um and our house is one of the contributing properties on the list. Um I'm my me and my family are
opposed to this um historic preservation. Um, not because I don't think it's important and not because I don't love the properties and whatnot in our in our community, but I think it's evident even from the historical report that over half properties are not contributing. Um, it's a very different
it is already a mix as noted before of homes, beautiful homes, different eras. My house has been renovated so much that it's inside is completely two add-ons on both sides. I mean, it's completely different property, but it's a property I love. It's a property that I'm paying thousands of dollars to clean the
slavery fund, you know, and keep um you know, and and that's what I love about it. And and I think to the point being made that like we're here to preserve it. I I've lived here for um about seven years, plan to raise my hold them here and not to do anything different. So I
think that it's not something to be done through a historic um uh preservation. I think it's over broad. I think causing [clears throat] that to the whole community and imposing it on specifically less than 50% of the homes in the area just you're not creating a a
historic preservation as much as you are locking in a subset a minority subset of population. Um I would be more than open to having discussions about covenants so we can all make sure our properties are are not being sub to that point. We completely for that or some other things
about flat roofs or other things that we can say so we can all get comfortable. Our community will be kept in an order that we like but I think that doing it in this manner creates too much of a burden on people and creates a society that like you know it's always I'm
always worried about what I can and can't do to my property. And to her point about the $5 million that that came from me and that came from my insurer. I pay full restoration cost to my first home so I can make it again so I can keep this site but they are putting that over by that's just the
truth. Happy to share. That's all I said. >> Thank you. I'm sorry. Have your last name please. >> Austin OA oza. >> Thank you. My name is Peter Humphre. Hu M E H R E Y
S. Uh I live at 41 Corth Drive. Um I've lived in the house for nearly 34 years, so um quite a while. Um I I have like a I have a number of things to say but I'll try and do it in
three minute bursts and then come back um if you want to. Um the first thing this this committee is charged with identifying um historic buildings in the township.
um you haven't identified any buildings that in our neighborhood the the concept of the Woodfield neighborhood is a new one to me but um it's it's a new idea that we are in a a development uh called Woodfield but be as it may but there's
no building identified in that area that's been deemed historic. So I guess my first question is how can we be in a historic district with no historic buildings? I don't understand that. Um then the
ordinance I looked at the ordinance and the ordinance talks about what things mean and it's all defined. Historic means historical and architectural significance. Um historical means related to history. I don't know what that means but that's
what it says on the statute. Um, and so when you're looking for these uh historic districts, you've got to get in within the the confines of what is a historical district under the ordinance and you've got to show the facts to get
into the into the um definition. Um the there are three types of buildings in our district. There's the key buildings which we don't have any. Those are buildings of historical architectural significance. We have not. Um then there
are the contributing buildings. Um they have some architectural historical significance. We have 26 apparently. And then we have 28 which have no significant historical value or architectural historical value which I
find surprising because there's really a lot of beautiful homes that are being dismissed as having no value which I find strange. Um, so I'm I've got three seconds. I I'll stop there. Um, I'll return if you if you
can. >> Great. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Come on out. Hi. Uh, my name is David Pet EZ 17 Road, which is a contributing
property. Um, much like the um the woman who came up earlier and spoke about being a caretaker that Yes. Um, I feel like I am a caretaker. I knew what I was getting into when I bought the house. Um, I have a slate roof. I understand
the cost associated with that. Um, I am fully in support of designating this area as a historic district. So, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And just to remind everybody, um, or to point it out, the clock says it starts
with 2 minutes 30 seconds and then once it hits the end of the two minutes 30 seconds, it starts again with an additional 30 seconds. So just because it says 2 minutes 30 seconds, you actually have a full three minutes. >> There's two beats, right?
>> Yeah, there. >> Hello, my name is Andrea Kali. K A Y Y A L I. I'm a resident at 100 Woodfield Drive. I believe is a contributing property. Um, I'm also for the historic
designation. Uh, I think we we've been in our property for eight years. When we came from Westfield, we were looking in Short Hills and one of the things that drew us to the neighborhood was the character of
the houses. Um, and it it's a very uh charming neighborhood. it. Um, we we love the space, the treeline streets, everything really about it. And it's what brought us here as opposed to a house that costs about the same amount
but is more spot-uilt. And I think that people um kind of don't love spot building in neighborhoods. So, we're happy to support the historic designation because we love our neighborhood and we want to see it retain its original character and charm.
Thank you. >> Good evening board members. My name is David Vong. I live 6 Delton Drive. Uh we moved to No for the education and uh I have never seen a more beautiful town. There's
something more more beautiful than this house. So, we love this town. We saw the house, we moved in. It's a tuna and um I mean the beauty of tuners speaks for itself. So,
however, we do feel that uh the beauty speaks for itself. We want to preserve it as much as possible, but we don't need a government regulations telling me what to do about my house. So it's the beauty speaks for itself. We
will do our best to preserve it, but I don't want more uh government on my head telling me what to do. I don't want more regulations. Um as for the cost of upkeep and all that, we'll do the best we can, but you know, we work for a
living. You know, we middle class people. So, you know, all this talk about slate roofs and iron fences or whatever, it's it's an undue burden on us. and uh like the committee to consider that. Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Please. >> My name is Yuka Casha. Um K A H Y A P. Um we are the new we're the newest owners in the district that are is affected um to Kennel Work Drive. We looked far and wide. I'm a Long
Island girl and I was very resistant to moving to New Jersey, I will tell you that. Um, and we looked everywhere. And as soon as we walked in the home, I think it was the first thing was on the market. I fell in love. Um, and I think it's the oldest house in that area. I
think it was built in like 18 something or maybe 1900. Um, looking at the paperwork was 1890. Um, and it like it stole my heart. And you know, this Long Islander who lives in the patent now, but we'll move to Jersey. Um and um
I want I want to preserve it. I think that my my kids love it. They're four and a half years old. We want to stay a long time. Uh we love the backyard. We love the property. There's no idea that, you know, we want to subdivide it. But I do think it it is a burden. I mean, we're young. We have young kids. You
know, it's expensive and, you know, we're working. We're commuting. And just the idea of like I've never owned a home so I don't know what it looks like to take care of one on top of like them having other obstacles um that could be hard for us to achieve. And so um you
know if you want to know like in good faith are the new owners looking to do anything to the district? Absolutely not. You know I I want to have playdates. I want to have people over. I I want to like have community and that's why we moved here. Um, and I hope that
our neighbors want the same. Um, but you know, that extra cost um would be I think for us, so I approach it. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We have anyone else from the neighborhood that would like to speak?
>> We got We got somebody coming. Hold on one second. [clears throat] Hi, my name is uh Jackfellow at five. G O O D F E L L O W. I appreciate you giving us a chance to
share our opinions on whether there should be a historic district or not. My wife and I moved to New Jersey about uh nine years ago, little nine years ago. We lived in Short Hills for eight at this address. Uh, one of the things that attracted us to the community because to
this particular neighborhood, uh, because we looked at a number of homes is that it was not designated in historic uh, neighborhood. We wanted to retain the rights to remodel the home, you know, based on the current uh, uh, restrictions that you have, but not to
add any more uh, restrictions to what we can and cannot do and ask for permission. Uh so yeah, you know, we're we're opposed to it being designated and uh I fully appreciate all the people that say they have a home that they want to be a caretaker for. I don't think they need this designation to do that.
Uh they can do that, take that upon themselves. Uh we live right next to a lot where a home was torn down, that new one was built. I mean, it's a beautiful new home. I don't know why anybody would want to live next to it. Uh, so you know,
I don't I don't know that these homes being torn down and the new ones being built are usually nicer than the ones that are being torn down. So, we fully appreciate that that somebody wants to invest that kind of money into our neighborhood. As a person who gets out in the community and walks and runs a lot, uh, seeing these new homes is
great. Uh, so again, we just want to be on record that we designation. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Anybody tell us? [clears throat] Hi everyone, my name is I'm not a good
public speaker. This is the first time speaking and I have I have some other problems also where I cannot speak very well. So please bear with me. Uh my name is Sesh J I N I B drive and we've been living here for last three years and we
love this is a 100 year old which is beautiful to me that doesn't mean that it should be beautiful to everyone else. uh what I'm here to talk about I don't support this historical presentation designation for this for this town or
for this uh property because I think I should be the one who is making the decision for my house [clears throat] not someone else and I'm going to be fairly restricted to make any decision for my house if we are
part of the company my my windows are leaky there's a lot of draft coming in it's a wooden window. It's hard to get it fixed. I'm trying to put something there, but I want that to be my decision that I can replace my [clears throat] window. I cannot replace it. I don't want someone else to come and tell me
whether I should replace the window or not. The second thing is the question is how did we get here? We get here by fear. Someone from somewhere came and say, "Oh, the developer is going to come and subdivide your lot. All your lot is more than 1 acre." I did a lot of
mathematics there. I spoke to the zoning officer Elen. She explained me that you cannot subdivide a lot which is 1 acre in your in your area. Your lot minimum size is 66 acre. That means that you have to have more than 1.3 acre area.
Then I went back to zero. I tried to put everything together and then I found there are only four or five lots which can be subdivided. So think about this tactics which has been used on our neighbors to tell us oh someone is going to come put a build put a town houses
there put multi multi multif family houses there or apartment complex there but I did more research on that can HPC preserve that I found out HPC cannot preserve that if a developer
if a developer is going to come up with affordable housing this developer is going to have a mandate for superior court and HPC does not have a higher juriction than the superior court. So if a developer has an approved from superior court saying that you can build affordable house there then we cannot do
anything. So you you see how we got here you see how we got here. We got here because of fear which was induced to us without without evaluating those facts and that is my problem. If you want to do historical preservation we do it but
we do it with the right facts not incorrect facts here not with the peer with the motivation to save this community save this state and I'm all in for that but I cannot do it this way. Thank you. >> And I'm the one writing letter to
everyone and at the mailbox. >> Thank you. Anyone else? First time go around, please. >> Hi, my name is Leah Cruz. I live on Whitney Road in the Nwood section. Um I
feel like our neighborhood is kind of like a mini Woodfield estates. Everybody, all my um friends and family who come to visit are always commenting how charming the neighborhood is. And when I drive through the Woodfield Estates neighborhood, I feel the same way. It's such a beautiful place. So, I am for the designation.
Um, and I actually think I should bring it up to my neighbors because our neighborhood is so charming and I think it should be preserved. >> So, so wait a minute, let me let me just the clarification. I think I know you're on the opposite side. So, you're not You were noticed,
but you weren't in the designation. >> I live on Whitney Road, so this does not affect me. >> Okay. So, >> So, I'm sorry. You're still in the first round. >> You were. I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry. I thought you opened it up to >> No, go ahead. Why don't you finish? Well, no, we we'll let this one pass.
>> Misunderstood. Sorry. >> That's okay. >> Um, anyway, I'm for the decimation, as I sort of just explained. Um, a lot of the um, people in the neighborhood are talking about being against it because of bureaucracy and red tea. I feel that
we already have so much of that in town or where wherever you live at your job or whatever it is. You need a permit for a renovation. You need a permit to own a dog. I haven't seen any of these people at TC meetings on a regular basis. So, I feel like a lot of these people have no
idea of the bureaucracy and red tape that the town deals with on a regular basis. the the people that are here may have good intentions, but their children may not when they are the steward of the home or new buyers of their home. So again, I don't think bureaucracy
bureaucracy, so I can't say that word or red tape is really just a reason to be against it like that. That's just the way of life. I think we should preserve the beauty of Melbourne. >> Thank you. >> So sorry about that. We just didn't
check that address, but thank you for sharing. Um, please do. >> My name is Sonica Bomba. S O N I E K A Bomba. B M B H A. And I'm the owner of 23 Groona.
And I want to mention that I'm only a homeowner. I'm not a builder. I'm not a developer. [clears throat] I want to tell you that the sudden demo freeze and historic consideration has put my family under extreme stress. For weeks, we've lived with this
constant fear, uncertaintity, and anxiety while trying to follow every required step with the township Melbourne Township. Instead of focusing on my very young kids, my two young kids, I've been running around between these offices just trying to, you know,
protect my house that I bought legally that we always plan to uh rebuild it. I respect this commission, but I'm asking for fairness so my family isn't devastated by a process we never chose. you know, this was meant to be our dream
home, but right now it's just, you know, so stressful and it's just giving us trauma. I wanted to mention that to you. >> Well, thank you. Just clarification. Uh, your husband spoke earlier. Is that
correct? I'm so Yeah. Thank you. >> Please. Well, wait. Can I just go? >> No, hang on. We We just got to make sure we've ran through everybody first. Is that okay? Now, what I'd like to do is, if you don't mind, is have people that
are here that uh outside of this district so we can just hear them out and then we'll come back and listen >> then to the district. Um, >> can I ask a question? >> No, not really. Okay. So, we're we have a process here. I'm asking.
>> Yeah, we have a process. So, if you don't mind, uh, anyone now who doesn't live in the district that would like to come forward, that would be terrific. And yes, we should let you go first.
>> The first one in this Theodore ClTZ. I live at 108 Forest Drive, which is in the old Shore Hill section. We've been here about uh almost 40 years. We have a Horch house. So, I'm very familiar with the historical requirements. It's an 1885 house. So, we've done a lot of work
on it. And, you know, we've never had a problem in upgrading our house. We've done a deck. We've done roofs twice. Uh we've done painting on the outside. We've done a front new front doors. We've done new siding. We've done landscaping upgrades, which is endless
with the deer problem we have. We're constantly doing landscaping upgrades. And there's never a problem with that I've had with historical society. Now there's an old you many many years ago 30 40 years ago we did have a guy who was very difficult to deal with but that's that was Lampia was his name and
it was a it created a bad impression over the historical society. It's totally different now. So uh you've got Allison running this thing and she's a delight to work with as far as I'm concerned. So, and the goal, I think, of this historical society is to is just to
preserve what is historical and what makes our neighborhood so special. It's not to prevent upgrades to our homes, but to enhance the house, to enhance our homes with appropriate guidelines to preserve the integrity of the neighborhood. And
that's the that's the focus we should be having. We're trying to preserve the integrity of our neighborhood. We're not trying to stop anybody from from doing upgrades as long as they follow some particular guidelines. If you don't have guidelines, everybody can just do whatever they want and we're going to end up with a mess. So, we're going to
lose a lot of value in our homes. So, I can think of no better way uh to maintain and and also improve the value of our homes than having an historical preservation committee giving us some guidelines, some appropriate guidelines to help keep the integrity of our
neighborhood. keeping it as as historical preservation I think is critical to what we are and I would say um I would like to see the entire Short Hills area declare historical. I really think that would ensure our values and enhance our our long-term
long-term longevity [clears throat] of of of having a community that's really unique. This is a unique unique area and you hate to see it just disappear and it could if we don't try to protect it. So that's why
>> anybody can jump up. I think we got somebody over here first and then please just if you want to you can even get in line if you'd like. Hello, my name is Annette Goodfellow. I live at five broer. Been a resident
there for about eight years. And the way I see this is we have a lot of really old historic beautiful homes. When my husband and I bought, we bought we followed the old adage that you buy the smallest house in the nicest neighborhood. >> And so when we think about a historic
preservation, I fear that I could be in the same position as this gentleman here. We have the smallest house. And the fear that has been introduced here is the fear of, you know, I've been living in this house for 30 years. I've been living in my dream house. I'm gonna die here. Well, congratulations that you
live in your dream house. But some of us are in starter homes that do need significant reserv renovation. And in an expanded ranch, it is going to need renovation and will be constrained for the sake of people who want to retain their individual home value. And they do
not care about the older these non-conforming houses that are in desperate need of renovation just because you fear a modern home because it's not your personal style. Because something isn't your personal style. Can it dictate whether this gentleman or
ourselves or others have the ability to renovate in substantial ways? Because let's be real, as many beautiful homes as there are, there are many homes that are in need of renovation. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Somebody just jump up. Yeah. Hi. Uh, I'm Rob Singer. Uh, I'm a builder actually in this town, so I thought I would give a little bit of a different perspective. >> I think people confuse you with me. [laughter] >> Um, I have no skin in the game here, so
I'm just going to speak about my experience that I've had. I was always very very reluctant to kind of jump into this as a builder. It scared me. But not too long ago, maybe three or four years
ago, I actually bought a piece um and I've built a lot of homes in town. I bought a piece I believe it was on Lindon. It was in it was in Milbour and I've done them in Short Hills. I've done in in Milbour and the experience
was really really good. I I was so surprised. I dealt with Allison. I dealt with Barton Ross who is I guess their consultant and you know strictly from a financial standpoint
I actually think it was beneficial because um [laughter] Um, so strictly from a financial standpoint, you know, it's like I look at it like,
you know, buyers don't want to buy something that doesn't doesn't fit into a neighborhood. It doesn't have to be exactly like every other house, but the whole point of this is that there's a nod to the history of
the development. It's not that hard from our end. and they were super accommodating. And I I can't even believe I'm standing here saying this, but I it was a pleasure. I I recently did two larger
houses on Old Short Hills Road and you know, it was a give and take and it was a very, very healthy experience. And in the end, I think that the people that bought were happy that they bought a home that fit into the township. I was
proud of building homes that ended up looking like they belonged in Short Hills. And uh you know, that's what it's all about. It's about like a working relationship. And on top of it, and this is the single most important thing, I
made money. And I that's the thing that should resonate with everybody here. Like I think I didn't just make money. I probably made more money than if I thought I was going to just be a cowboy and do it on my own. So, you know, it was a great experience,
you know, and I just I thought it was important to kind of convey that to the people that live in the neighborhood. That's it. >> Thank you. >> I'm sorry. >> Did you tear down a contributing property? >> I I did both. So, I've done I took down
on Old Short Hills Road. I took down Am I on a timer? [laughter] >> I I took down a house on Old Short Hills Road and other homes I did renovations and they were equally and there were suggestions on the houses I took down
and and there was a back and forth. They were both they were all great experience. [clears throat] >> Wow. But thank you very much. >> Uh good evening. Uh my name is Rob Freriedman. I live in the mountaintop section of Short Hills. Uh a little bit
of background. Um I invest in companies, not real estate, but I I grew up in a real estate construction family uh and also uh a rental apartment family. And um I inherited property after my dad
passed away in Hardy Township. And um I inherited 15 acres. Took me a long time to get all of the permit a builder to build on that property. And I unders even though I didn't live
in Harding, I understood the feeling, the aesthetic of that town. And when I had to go for variances, and that town is a very very hard town to get variances,
[clears throat] I I engaged an architect and I said, "I want stone and clapboard. I wanted configured a certain way. I was very mindful of my neighbors. I knew what the town wanted. I knew what the people who would move into the town
would want. I'm stating that because Short Hills has a unique aesthetic character. Now, I'm also a small government person. I'm very reluctant for the government to get in the way typically in terms of people making
individual decisions. But in this case, and I've heard a lot of hyperbole on each side, I don't get the sense that the [clears throat] the guidelines of this historical preservation commission is ownorous. And
again, I come from a builder's family and also very quickly um there was u a a spec house being built that's being built down the street from from me
and so they they maximized everything. The the design is not harmonizing with the neighborhood and so we need guidelines. We need basic guidelines in my opinion about the for
the character of the staff. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Good evening. Um >> it just [laughter] uh Kevin Willins 31 Northern
Drive Will Wii Lens and so um I'm here I'm not an advocate for either side. I respect both both discussions. What I bring is I've lived in town 37 years and 30 years in the
park district his historic section on on Northern Drive. And we've done over the 30 years we've done actually we're starting our third renovation of of of the house and we've done maintenance
throughout and we've always um been able to do what we envisioned working with the with the historic preservation. So I think what I'm you know really want to deliver and we just went through one we're in the middle of
like I said a a project right now and just went through the process and actually found it you know because you know when you talk to people they say oh you got to go to the historic commission it's going to be a nightmare you're going to spend two years not be able to do anything you want that just wasn't
wasn't our personal experience we really got through in you know um one preliminary meeting and then one final meeting and so forth. And it was actually a collaborative effort because we we love our home too. And we, you know, you part of going through the
process is makes you think about like what's special about your home because we all love more space, right? Space is is a great thing, but you know, sometimes space comes an expense. So for us, you know, we found it helpful to think it through. It wasn't like, you
know, we could just do everything we wanted, but everything we tried to achieve, whether it was, you know, 25 years ago under a historic preservation commission that, you know, wasn't as easy. We were able to get the kitchen
size we we want. And then, you know, a number of years later, we're able to get one of our bedrooms for our children the size that that we wanted. And now we're able to get one other section and get a garage. It's actually a working garage rather than one that was built for, you
know, it was 1931, so it wasn't built for carriages, but it wasn't built for for uh the kind of cars and so forth. So, we, you know, we found the process, you know, really good. You know, certain, you know, we never came, you know, over the 30 years, we never had
additional costs that we felt that, you know, every time we needed to replace things that were rotting or whatever that, you know, we did we did it. We kept it within the style. We never found that we were being imposed on to to do
uh to do do maintenance. Um, and you know, really quickly, the I think we've benefited because it's nice being in the in the district knowing that all your neighbors and we've had projects that have been proposed that were turned down by the historic commission because they
were, you know, doing things that were it'll be, you know, well beyond, you know, the scope. We're sorry. We could listen to you all day long, [laughter] >> but unfortunately we do have to cut you off. Thank you, Mr. >> Will.
>> Um, anyone else in the audience? >> Can I come back? Actually, because I >> as soon as we just see if no one else wants to get up and speak, then certainly let's take this anyone who wants to have a second round. That'd be
terrific. Go ahead. [clears throat] >> Um, it's very interesting to hear thoughts about historic or not since we have lived in the town for 11 years. We've been looking for a new home for 3
years. We found bunch of properties in short hills which are part of historic district. There were actually two we looked at on Highland Avenue and we really like them. And Arlene Gonella was representing and trying to sell
them. And I'm like, Arlene, this is great, but this house is empty. It has seems like the roof needs a lot of work. It's open. What's going on? And she's like, well, the owners left. They moved to Florida. They're trying to sell the house, but when they did the inspection,
somebody put the offer and the h the roof has leaks. I'm like, "Okay, so what's going on?" She's like, "Well, it's part of historic district, so the roof has to be repaired before they sell the house." I'm like, "Okay." She's like, "It's a slave roof." I'm like, "Okay, I didn't know what slave. I have
no idea." So, I'm like, "Why are they not fixing it?" It's like, "It's $300,000 cost." Like, so it's like, "No buyer wants to buy a house and spend $300,000 putting a slave roof. regular roof, which is $40,000, cannot be put in, and that's just not allowed. So,
this property is now stuck. So, the homeowner, who was trying to, I think, sell it for 3.1, I'm roughly remembering the numbers, could not sell it. They end up spending $300,000 fixing the roof, change the price to $3.5 million because they just put $300,000. Even then,
nobody will even put the offer because the house needs so much work. Arlene was literally messaging us and say, "Manic, put an offer on it. I'll get you a sweet deal. The property has been sitting on the market. It's one acre and nobody was putting an offer on it because it's part of the historic district." Now, there
are a lot of benefits of doing that. I hear my neighbors and I respect it. But I think it's a homeowner's decision. If everybody wants to [clears throat] live in a community where somebody else is making a decision on it, those are called apartments. We bought individual homes. We bought individual lands. so we
can make those decisions. And if you think your neighbors are dumb who are spending millions of dollars, these people are not dumb. Let's respect each other. We all are here in short hills because we learn how to do certain things right now. If you don't like their style, you don't have to. Now
we're talking about, well, your home should like look like this because I don't like it. Tomorrow you're commenting on people's cars. Third day, you're commenting on their clothes. Where is this going to end? Tomorrow people are going to be like, I don't like the way these guys wearing their jackets. I want them to wear jackets
like this. Let's put another commission on it. I don't think it's fair. Coming back to our case. We don't need to be here. We already have a home in Sharkles. If people have an opinion on our property, great. Write us the check.
Let us walk. We are happy to leave everybody alone. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. My name is Len J4 process. So as I said there's not a lot of transparency which was put in this process. A lot of people doesn't
understand what a contribution contributing property means. What a non-contributing property mean. Some people think since they own a newer house, they are immune to this process. But it is not. They are not immune to this process. They have to still go through the review process and everything. The second thing, the
timing. This was this particular hearing was intentionally put during the week winter vacation. What I did last week when it was snowing Saturday, Sunday, I went door to door. every four [clears throat] corner I couldn't cover every single one in the wood street but
I went to door to door I covered door I covered half of care and I covered one more street I spoke with few resident I spoke to few owner and then I explained to them that what is this and they were shocked oh does this mean this I cannot
do this I cannot do and they were like I never signed up for this what had happened there was a there was a formal get together sometime back but and then we all as a neighbor went there a lot of people doesn't
understand anything HPC committee member came and then they presented something there and all of a sudden in the same meeting they were asked to sign a supporting document for this so that is what the l of transparency also has been impacting me now when I go
doortodoor I have already signature of 20 neighbors who are saying they don't want to do this and I have in return signature for there. Some of them have reached out to you over the HPCA and town truck also. There have been at least 20 neighbors I
know and I don't know lot of them here are also not supporting so most of the neighbor does not want it and I think I you guys should respect that I have written when we go to the township meeting but please understand that this was not a
lot of transparency here. If you want to do it again, yes, let's have a meeting again. Let have you haven't answered yet. How many people have voted for this day? When I wanted to ask you question, you were you said no, no question is going to be written. So at as at this point, I don't even know how many
neighbor neighbors came to you guys to say yes, we want to do the historic. So sake of transparency is killing me. Oh now if you want to do it what we are departing is just let's do a honest conversation let's teach each and every
neighbor what does that mean for their property and yes the property values are going to decrease I spoke to so many dear state agent I spoke to so many architect before I decided to start writing later all of them said property value is a pool of buyer and
seller you lose your buyer your property value is going to go down that simple stock. How many people wants to buy? How many people wants to say? You reduce the buyer pool. Your value is going to go down. This as simple as this. So if you want to do it again, please do
it again. Let's have an honest transparent conversation. I'm all in for that. But not this way that the people [clears throat] are not even here for winter location. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I'm sorry. >> Oh, I said Jame. Did you say I thought you said your first name was Jame?
>> Oh, no. I apologize. >> Thank you. [laughter] >> Pastor 28 your year resident of Short Hills. I live in the Glenwood section. Uh when we came to New Jersey from London, we were looking for a place to
live that was not too far off the uh gorgeous historic Richmond suburb of London where we lived for 10 years uh to raise our family with four children. Um, when we saw Shore Hills after we spent time in Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, we just couldn't believe what a
beautiful place it was and how well suited it was to the dream we had to have uh something that looked and felt the way Short Hills felt. So, we bought a home. Uh, it was rebuilt by the former owners because their house burned to the ground. Unfortunately, there was a
lightning strike and there was no water to get to the house, so it burned to the ground. Um, Al Bull, uh, I think he's a retired now architect. Uh, he specialized in designing homes that would, uh, preserve the look and feel of a former home's history and place in the
neighborhood. Uh, he designed the home and he did a truly outstanding job. Uh, not only did the exterior fit in, but the interior was modernized and, uh, very adaptable for a family of our size. Um, our friends and neighbors still
think that our home has been there forever because it fits into the look, the scale, and the streetscape of our neighborhood. It uh makes us proud and we certainly have done all we can to preserve that uh that that design that that Al had in
mind. Um, the Glenwood neighborhood does have homes that deserve, I think, historic preservation. It's my hope that we can explore the same designation process for our beautiful neighborhood. I want to thank the people who put the time and energy into doing this for the Woodfield Estates neighborhood and I
hope that we can use that knowledge and process ourselves. We all benefit from that effort. I've closely followed what is involved in the 40year-old Mount Laurel and the uh only two-year-old affordable housing law that's been imposed by the state of New Jersey on
all municipalities in our state. We have a great responsibility as a community to find ways to push back on this gross overreach into our buolic suburban towns. Historic designation is a protective measure that will help our community preserve the very things that
we were all drawn to when coming to settle here. Finally, I want to say that there are risks associated with everything we do, including buying homes in this town or any town. Laws change, things change. While it's unfortunate timing for some,
the job of our elected officials is to act as a fiduciary of our town to do whatever is right for the community as a whole now and in the long term. That's what makes community and that's why I'm proud to be here in this town involved and gave. I fully support the historic
designation in this instance and I hope in many other neighborhoods to come. Thank you. Um, round two. Um, I doing this in three minute intervals doesn't really work for me, but I know you're what the things are, but let me let me just try to
chase. Um, if we make this a historic I don't think there's anybody here who thinks it's a great idea to level houses in our neighborhood and to build two houses on the same lot. I mean, that's fine. I everybody agrees on that. We're not arguing about that. And it's so that
that part seems to be some way we could deal with another way or whatever we do. We definitely deal with that issue. Um question is what are we doing when you want to make a repair on your house and the short answer is
you can see the repair from the road you got to come do your best to the committee and we have to ask for a certificate of appropriateness right so if you can see it from the road you can do it so some houses front back side whatever they can be seen from the road
they have to come and ask permission other people can't be seen from the road they can do what they want. So one of the questions is we're trying to preserve the neighborhood but and if you believe this is the way to preserve the neighborhood by making people come to you every time they want to make a minor
regard okay [clears throat] that's but that's a love of bureaucracy. If on another hand, you believe that people should be allowed to do what they wish and that we are pretty much grown-ups living in this neighborhood and generally sensible people, then we
shouldn't have to come to you and ask permission. We should be trusted to look after our home. Um, in my experience, when I lived here 34 years, people around the neighborhood are pretty good. I mean, my neighbor the other day was
putting down new paving. It's great. It looks really nice, but they didn't come to you and ask you. It wasn't the same as their old paving. It wasn't the same as the original paving back in 1928, but it was nice paving. And it's not my decision whether they have blue paving
or painting. That's not my That's not my job. And it's not your job with respect because it's all subjective. Now they tell us and you your fan club Alison was here today at force and they said what a great person you are and how you do such a great job and I'm sure you do but the
problem is you're not here for life in fact you could be gone this time next year and the government of this town has changed dramatically over the years and we could end up with a a committee that really doesn't really have much sympathy
with the millionaires living in our district and they can be quite harsh And so we can't rely on the fact that you're a reason person, we have to assume that somebody's going to hold us to the words of this ordinance. So when it says things like you may not replace,
you must repair instead of replacing, that's what it means and that's what they'll make you do. And so that's so that's what I think and let me just say if I what I wanted to talk about was even if that decision is being made and
that should be made amongst all of us but even if that decision is being made this committee can't just write a report unless it shows that we actually live in a historic district and you've given us this big 111 page report and it doesn't
show that we are in a historic district. It doesn't have the the information in it to show that we're historic. It doesn't have the information to show we're architecturally um special and it needs to be it it so we're not in
historic district in the first place. So you can't pass it along if we don't live in the right district. >> So let I'll return I can keep I can keep speaking or I can sit down again. It's up to you. >> Well, it all depends. Do you would you like us to kind of answer some of these
questions or would you like to continue to keep speaking because >> No, no, you have to if you'd like to ask my question. Okay, that's fine. >> Okay. So, let's just make sure because his three minutes were up. Is there anyone else who'd like to come? Okay. >> Okay.
Go ahead. I'll go back. I'll come back. Hi, I'm Frank Sakamandandy 17 Lee Terrace. Um was debating whether I would speak about this because I am currently on the township committee. I am currently serving as mayor. Um, but what I want to talk about is two years ago I
sat uh as the liaison for the HPC and I got to learn a lot about uh the historic process and I got to see a lot of applications come through and I just wanted to say I was amazed at how great this board was. uh when applicants came
before them, they worked with them. They tried to help them uh to you know help economize uh you know in areas that they could. They helped them you know would help them with materials uh etc. And you know most people that came through
seemed to have a very positive experience. We had one person who lived in a a historic home uh and they actually put an entire second floor on. And you would have thought, oh, that would be hard to do if you're an historic home. But the fact of the matter is the historic designation
doesn't prevent you from enhancing your home, from modernizing it. It just places um some restrictions on, you know, the keeping within the character. Uh and I think that's what a lot of people here are concerned about. They don't want to see the character of their
neighborhood change. There is costefficient ways. There's modern materials you can use in substitution of the original materials and that's stuff that this board can certainly help with and I've seen them help with. Um, so, you know, I think there's a lot of fear,
uncertainty, and doubt around historic and and what it means, but at the end of the day, I do think it protects the neighborhoods. Uh so if residents of a neighborhood come forward and the majority of them want it uh then you know I think that's something that we
have to consider. And I will say for the record thus far uh you know when this process started I received a petition of um you know people that lived in the area and there are more names uh on that petition than there are on the petition circulating against it. So, just want to
throw that out there that it certainly seems like the majority of residents in this neighborhood are for this designation. >> That's all I want to say. Thank you. >> Dr. Amos, I just want to clarify something. He
said, um, we were definitely wanted to be informed about what was going on in this. And I think my wife signed something saying she wanted to be informed. Put her name down, her contact information. We saw our reports that we were signing a pet. We apparently signed some petition, alleged to have signed a
petition saying we were for this. That is not true. So, I don't know if everyone on that thing that you saw truly is in support. Um, she got invited to a meeting to talk about it, which I think is great. Honestly, that's part of this to have that discussion. But somehow that got misconstrued when she
signed to get more information that she wasn't supportive. So I I just want to put that out there because I think that what you may be seeing may be misleading. At least it was when we saw it, we were so first off. Second off, the last thing I would say is I think it's really interesting people say, "I
think we should do this for all of short hills. It would be great to keep this for everyone." That epitomizes the fact that this is not it's a slippery slope. like when do we stop and just say the whole town is historic so we can keep certain places how they are and I think that's just a problem right they have to
we have to show evidence that this is a unique situation this is not like every other part of Short Hills if it's like every other community of Short Hills with a mix of some historic homes and some not how do we say it's different and it should be recognized as historic
um I I actually believe in having historic parts of the town I think that makes total sense but it can't be that you look at something and say well there are some old homes hence it's historic that is too low a bar it has to find a
greater standard for you know very very historic like specific homes like you know I know that there are specific homes that are very unique and have you know unique roof style fiance slate like just you know totally different homes like things of that nature or whole streets that 80% 90% of the homes are
all historic I get that but we don't have that here it's a completely you you've gone to a slippery slope of what what is historic in this town and if we're going to say the whole town's historic that's a whole different discussion. Thank you. >> Great. Thank you. >> Um >> can I talk a little bit about the
petition which is talking about >> you know what I'd like to answer some of your questions. Um so as soon as one minute I'm not going to take one minute. >> Okay. >> So as I said people were invited to a
gathering and that person was super respected super honest. So we people came there was a presentation by about the spiritical committee and then all of a sudden people were asked to sign something which they did not understand well. So when I'm saying that I went to
door to door which HP should have done they they should have went door to door explaining people what this means what it does not mean and then ask them do you want to sign this or not when I'm doing this right now I'm telling you I went to around 20 crew houses all of
them signed my petition saying that we don't want that so please when I'm saying that there are a lot of people who doesn't understand that and they signed it now they are saying that they don't want to do it so please hear me out and let's let's redo this process again. I'm
I'm all in, but I just want to do it the right way where people understand what they are trying to sign in here. >> Great. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And good fellow five governor and I want to echo his point exactly. Um I
mentioned earlier that we are in one of the smaller houses in the neighborhood. It is a an expanded branch, very little space upstairs. The neighbor who lives behind us is the exact same configuration. They have plans to renovate and they've probably gone through the town council and gotten
permits because we've got notification about it. Right. Um we've been texting with them. Are you coming? Is this something that you're for or something near advanced? Right. We've just curious to their perspective. Uh their text says I >> um I don't I don't know if it's legal. >> Okay. I won't read their text, but the
the key thought was I don't fully understand. And so, you know, they would like to learn more. I don't fully understand. And so, you know, just another piece of anecdotal evidence that there are [clears throat] people in this town, people who are going to be impacted who are have renovation plans
who don't understand the implications of how this impacts them. And in particular, they said, "We're a non-conforming house. I don't think this impacts me." very much impacts them because this is the type of home that you I've heard many of you pe many of
you just say you um you know you can do the interior of your home some of these smaller ranches are going to need a larger footprint those homes that need a larger footprint many of these homes in short hills I'm seeing 4,000 5,000 6,000 square feet we
are nowhere near that and so to say oh well you can renovate your kitchen you know Some of these smaller ranches, we have more ambition than a renovated kitchen. And the people who this impacts aren't even aware of that it's impacting them because they think their
non-conforming home thinks that doesn't impact them. So, I think we need a lot more clarity and transparency in this problem. >> Well, thank you. And I think now is the opportunity to bear with us here and we can kind of clarify some of the misinformation that's going around at
this point if you guys will allow us to do so. >> And I would just say we need a way to do that for people who aren't at all. >> I understand. >> Thank you. um if you if you will allow me just for a minute and certainly any of the
commissioners uh you know can certainly jump in. First of all, I want to say that the reason that we just don't want somebody hold their hand up and say I have a question is because we have a process and we want to give everybody the opportunity to speak however they
feel and remember it's respect to all. Um, so certainly that was the procedure and thank you so much. Uh, it doesn't always happen this way and we appreciate how kind you've been to everyone who has
stood up. Um, second of all, I think there were a couple things that I just wanted to hit on and and the fact is that you really don't know us at all, but there we have four commissioners that have and live in a historic house and they've also renovated it. So,
they've lived it, some contributing, some non-contributing. So, who else better understands something than somebody who is actually gone through the process uh so much and we believe in it that we're now sitting on this
commission. Just a little bit of back history. I've been on this commission for 19 plus years. I think it's almost 20. I know that's hard for you to believe because I look so young, but all joking aside, when I came on this
commission and I was asked to be on this commission or if I wanted to be on this commission, uh, one of the things that I did do is write down everything that I thought would streamline this commission. So, the wait times, we
all we all lived it. So, some of us renovated our houses long before this speed track that we put on. We also changed ordinances. We're always constantly looking on how to streamline
this less government control. We really are trying to do this and I think we've done an extremely good job of streamlining it. I think one of the biggest myths here is that if you're in
a non-contributing house that we don't allow you to tear it down. We don't allow you to make repairs as you see fit. What we try to do is just make sure that it's all in keeping. So for instance, if you wanted to tear down
your house, and I understand there the woman who mentioned, you know, people are building four and 5,000 square foot houses. Zoning allows a property. Okay, it's a one-sizefits-all.
Okay, so whatever zone you're in, okay? So, the four or 5,000 square foot house that somebody's going to knock down, somebody could build, depending on your lot size, 10 to 12,000 square ft from 4,000.
that affects the actual environment around it, the houses around it, all of those things. So again, that's how neighborhoods break down, okay? Is when someone decides that, you know, instead
of a 6,000 square foot house, look, I can have a 12,000 foot house. So those who are concerned about what the community and the neighborhood and how it's going to change, in our experience, that's exactly how we've seen them
change is that one-sizefits-all zoning regulation. Historic preservation really looks and asks, okay, can we do this more appropriate size and scale to all of your neighbors?
Okay? Because the true neighborhood here is about the land and the trees and how far the houses set from one another. So again, a lot of what we do is ask. A
non-contributing house can be torn down immediately. Well, not immediately. You have to go through a demo permit. You show us what you want to build. It's also a documentation. But more importantly, I'd like to go
back to what Mr. Humphrey is that said. First of all, since 1990, now keep in mind since 1978 where when the historic commission first started in 1990, there were multiple
neighborhoods mentioned and Woodfield was one of those neighborhoods. It has an incredible history. For those who don't know or did not read the brochure, this was the Taylor estate and that's Taylor Park. She and Mr. and Mrs.
Taylor, this is where their mansion set was on this particular property. This very map dates back when it was first decided to be a development. The reason it was a development because Mr. Mrs.
Taylor moved the builder came in or the developer came in and he had an idea for this community. There's all kinds of literature talking about it when it happened. But in 1990
that district was actually recognized to be designated. So there was enough history and at that point we're about 40 years behind. So to your point, you know, all of these communities, there
are pockets of still great resources of well, historic resources. So when it was brought to our attention that neighbors were interested, of course, we looked into it, the report was written, and then that's how this
all began. Okay. Um, so again answering your question, this property and these houses have an crazy amount of history and a lot has been written about this particular area.
Okay. Um, slate roof. Just so everybody knows, yes, all roof is expensive, whether it's synthetic, slate, copper, whatever you put on this,
building costs are going up as we're all very much aware. But to say, first of all, when you look at a slate roof, it lasts a hundred years. Okay? When you repair a slate roof, it you only replace
possibly pieces. The story goes, you know, if you buy a house and the roof is 110 years old and never been repaired, then you have great expense. If it's kept up, it lasts another hundred years.
So, just so you know, but this commission has certainly thought about other ways like uh Mr. Sacramento said is that we have a list of acceptable materials for
you know whatever you're interested in. Our goal is to make sure that it's affordable to you. A lot of what we do is ask okay so we'd like you to do this or you know would you consider this? And
there has never in my mind there has never been anyone who's walked away from this commission not with not only better products because we have a list of what is out there and what works and what
doesn't work. So please keep in mind our job is to get you through this commission the first go around. We have a architecture consultant historian who makes sure that you get through us the
first go around and offers any any suggestions or alternative way of doing the exact same thing. We're not here to take away square footage or tell you you can't add it. So I think there's been
let's go back to then fear. Okay. I think there's been a lot said that makes people fearful of this process. You can look on the internet and my gosh, you can fear ladybugs if you'd like because
it it will tell you why. So, let's be careful and make sure that we're all looking at what this commission and what our regulations say. When it says guideline, it's a guideline. It's not in stone. We look at
everything that you're telling us and then we work with you to accomplish what you would like to do. Okay? We're not here to spend your money. We're not here to do that. And we as a commission, I think we do a very good job of not
demanding but listening to you and working with you before you come in front of the full commission. For instance, say for instance you have those three sides that are exposed. Okay, we have went with then the
homeowner to stand in front of zoning to support that application and why it's necessary that you need a fence because it is your backyard. So what I'd like everyone to do and and
that is to ask questions especially those who have been through the process also we have always had an open line of communication you can call any of us I think there and it's listed you can email us and we're more than happy to
help you understand each one of your houses are thumb print they're all and let us support you in that. Okay? Uh it's not a one-sizefits-all in these historic districts.
So you have either a different lot size at one point it was subdivided at one point houses were built later in the 50s. So again your house is its own thumbrint. We look at your house as an
individual and we work with you. And I don't think there's anybody here that would say that that's not true as far as am I going to stay here? I've been here for 20 years and they can't get rid of me. Now that doesn't mean they can't. They just haven't. Not only that, but
with each step we make in this process. All of these people are trained and understand this. So if something happened to me tomorrow, someone would step in my spot who is just as informed and working through that process just as
I have. Okay. Uh my vice chair isn't here tonight, but he's been here I think over 10 years. We have uh Robert Frankle. I think he's been here almost >> 10. >> 10 I think 12. I know. I know he doesn't look that old even. But as we keep
adding people and they want to stay with us because they do understand and it's not we follow the guidelines but we also look at you as individuals. Okay. Um I think um there's something else. the
Whitfield history. Again, I think I can only say the financial burden, extra cost, that's what we're here for. We understand it. We understand it. Four of us have been through it. Okay? So, no,
we're not here to make you spend more money. And the other thing is we're not here to hold your house in time. Okay? I know you guys do not repeat this, but I'm prodevelopment. Okay. But appropriate development and
not all architects that we hire, they sell themselves as historic architects. They, you know, they sell us a bill of goods. So, be careful because sometimes there it's it's not appropriate. Not
only are you not getting exactly what you want, but the size and scale of this property would force you to go to zoning. And remember, this isn't something that you guys want truly. Um,
so I think I pretty much hit on most things. Um, oh yes. um the minor work. So what we
did do is like replacing windows or the roof or um paint color we have nothing to do with um but just again minor work of you know fixing a step basically you email
send it through the minor work committee meets whenever there's an application if there's one if there's five we immediately receive respond. Our consultants work every Tuesday. If you got it in on, you know, Wednesday of
one week, you're not going to hear back till Tuesday. If you got it in on Friday of that week, you're going to hear back on Tuesday. It just depends how it goes. It's not us telling you no. It's us giving you suggestions or it's thumbs
up, you got it, go with it, run with it. But remember what that is. It's not to jam things up. We're writing this in history. So now you're a part of this historic family. Okay? So anyone who
looks through these documents would fill the state, they're going to see this non-contributing house changed their windows on this date, blah blah blah blah blah, because someday that house is going to be a hundred years old, right? So, I think it's really important that
you know what we're doing here instead of the mistruths or what you find online or again the scare tactics. Okay. Um, contributing houses just so you know I won't get into the we and I highly
suggest that we speak you know so we can kind of explain the process to you. I also think that Katherine can explain the process of what our obligation is here tonight and then it moves if it
moves on to the TC and then it would go another direction to the planning board and then back to the TC. So again, this isn't the final of your discussions or you learning. And again, I don't think
there's anyone who would ever say that I don't return calls, okay, or emails. So I welcome each and every one of you to call me directly. We'll take your house
and we'll talk about your house as the most important thing in that community. Okay? And then any concerns that you have, I you know, I'll certainly answer those for you. Okay. Um
>> can I can I resume? >> Can I ask a followup question on that? >> Well, I think you would like to all uh followup questions. I think uh let me ask council at this point.
We still have time. Um but again we will limit you to three minutes. Okay. >> Okay. >> Um All right. I'm still feed but um >> I don't think where anybody is arguing
that you're reasonable people. >> I I don't think anybody's disputing that. You seem very reasonable and very nice and that's great. But the problem is that what you're saying is it's we should designate this historical as a historical district because we're such
nice people and we'll treat you well. Well, that's great, but the question is are we historical district at all? And when you look at the books, it says the historical district has got to be one where it's got um it's got to be the
buildings got to be united historically by plan or physical development. Um when I look to my house on one side I see a 20's house which has a modern extension. Next to that house is an
empty lot. um that the house will then that lot was totally lava. Actually, it's not completely empty. It has a soccer ball in the lot, but it's a fulls size lot. On the other side of the street, I've got a modern house built 9 years ago. I've got a Georgian uh a
Georgian house. I've got a Grecian house. I've got another 20's house. I look along the road, I've got two modern houses. Now, I don't think there is a plan. I don't think this district has a plan. What's happened in this district
is the houses have been built every now and again different styles. They're not united in any way. There might have been a plan in 1928, but there are only 25 houses in the district in 1928 and there's 54 now. So, I don't
think we meet the requirements for being a historic district at all. So, you have no jurisdiction over us. You can't designate us if we don't meet the ordinance. Okay. Now, when you've produced, you've got 111 page report out there. It it
doesn't show what's needed to show that we're historical or we have architecture that's in way significant. There are one and a half pages in your report that deal with those issues. The rest is
basically just pictures of houses where you don't have full details about the houses. And it's that brochure, the brochure from 19 presumably it's I I don't know when it is 1929, 1930, maybe
slightly after the crash of 29 because it talks about people having economic problems, but it's somewhere around there. And it's a brochure produced by a building firm, not a famous building firm, just a run-of-the-mill building firm at that time. It's still that firm
still exists um today, but and they have but they don't have any offices in in in Short Hills. Yeah, I know. Um, but it it doesn't have that that brochure is here say about what it was and it really is a
it's a sales document and we all know if we look at sales do supplements to houses it tells greater. >> Okay, >> I appreciate now we need to let someone else speak if that's okay. I'm trying but I would like to speak again because I have an important issue raising you on
the >> Yes. Okay. That's >> Oh, sorry. Oh, you you No, that's fine. >> Um, Mr. Humpish does bring up um an
interesting point, a good point. I think you'd be interested to try to get this home. Um, in broad strokes, I really think there should be some sort of historical design type of framework, whether it's in this district or other parts of town.
But it is important to be mindful to make sure that these regulations are consistent and they are flexible. That is very important because he does bring up a very good point that I wish we were all immortal and all ambulatoratory but
we're we're not and regimes change and there may be a different mindset that could you know go right to the point and they're into the power plays etc etc but again um you know in broad strokes I
do believe that there should be some sort of historical district. That said, I think the neighborhood should vote on it. They should make the decision, but I just think everyone
who's going to vote should keep this in mind. There are very powerful political forces that want to completely upend everyone's single lot zoning. >> Yeah. And if you think that you're
dealing with a little bit of nuisance of a commission looking at this and looking at that, what do you think about having a multi-dwelling apartment complex next to your $5 million home? Now, you tell me how
you're going to feel about that. And if you think that's hyperbole, just talk to very knowledgeable people that are very tuned in to what's going on at the state level and they will turn that around. So think about that very
carefully because if you have the historical designation, you have a legal shield. Just ponder it. Ponder it. Thank you. >> Thank you. I I would like to ask a followup question. Do you think there
HPC? >> Excuse me outside. >> I have a question for you. >> Yes. And then you can certainly have a conversation. >> Okay. But outside in the hallway. >> Yes, definitely. My question is you talk a lot about non-conformed property that
you can tear it down, you can expand it, you can do a lot of things, you can change the How about the confronting property? Do you think you can tear down the competitive property also? >> Um I would like to answer that when you are you finished with all your questions or
>> uh the second question which I have was [clears throat] >> I think that's the only question. >> Okay. So I certainly can answer that. We certainly have uh allowed contributing properties to be torn down. Um I again I
will reiterate the fact that every house is unique. Okay. So you are your house is a thumb print. It has to be it would be evaluated. Okay. And see what what's going on with it? You know has someone maintained it?
Have they not maintained it? There's a lot of things that we look at in a >> fully maintained house. A fully maintained house. Do you think you can let it steer down there? I think we would try to persuade you to keep it. >> Okay. The second question which I have is when you say that this is a a
recommendation is that your recommendation or is that something which owner cannot turn you? >> Uh again will you repeat? >> So when you said that these are our recommendation we work with you we are not going to force you. But do you think
that owner has the authority to turn you down? Because if the owner does not have an authority to turn you down, that's not that those are not interdiction. Those are orders. >> Well, let me explain. It is our position to persuade you why you shouldn't tear
it down. Now, if you choose to tear it down, we we would have to have a good reason to do so. And if you could tell me a good reason why, then certainly we would look at that. We're we're not >> the good reason can be I don't like my
house and I want to build a new traditional colonial house here. >> I I would say that that's kind of I just don't like my house but yet it is a contributing property to that beautiful community. So I think probably and I
can't speak for all the commissioners again we we'd ask you why and it's just because you don't want it. >> My wife doesn't want it. Yes, let's put it that way. then I think we may we may not >> see that's what I'm saying. So what you
are saying is not a recommendation there are typical orders which you want home owner to follow right >> and that was my point >> but what you're saying is is that you wouldn't give us an opportunity to persuade you as to why the houses adds
value to that community. So we can go both ways here. So again, thank you. >> You proved my point that as a homeowner, I lose my control over my property. >> Okay, >> I'll be real quick. I just want to
reiterate what the prior gentleman said about the slippery slope. The slippery slope is if we don't have guidelines. >> Um you you know what the billers want to do to our town. They would love to just overdevelop it. And in this commission, all they want to do is put in some
guidelines to control it. I don't know why anybody would be against that. The slippery slope is not having guidelines and that is what happened. It it's any society if they don't have guidelines and they have laws. Anybody can do what they want. Anybody can build what they
want. You're going to end up with a mess, you know, and our values will collapse and the town will be totally altered. So all they're asking for and want is guidelines. And why anybody is so opposed to having guidelines is beyond the slippery slope is truly if we
don't have the guidelines >> I think guidelines >> excuse me excuse me [laughter] >> remember member procedure >> I think certainly go >> just uh
there we are people that are for it there are people that opposed to it hold on you need your name my name is Ellen Steyberg I live at 41 kennel war. There are people that are for this. There are people that are opposed to it
for various varied and aundred reasons which we've all heard about. But at the end of the and there are contributing properties and non-contributing properties. But at the end of the day, the designation should actually
be decided upon at least before you make the decision by the residents that it's affected. These 54 homes, these 54 homeowners comprised of 26 contributing and 28 non-contributing.
As um Robert Freriedman said before, we should vote on it before you get to the point of moving it to the township committee. It was wonderful that people had the opportunity to listen to what you had to say and there are so many
questions. So before we rush, bear in mind these homes for 1928. So we're talking about homes that are 100 almost 100 years old. Can't we wait another few months before you make a decision and
not make it tonight to turn it over to the township committee so we can have some more discussions and then maybe take a vote within our community and and and then move forward and we move forward together. Thank you. That's all
I have to say. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. I I think it would be important to to answer that question right now. And I think maybe this is the time where we ask Catherine to again explain what we as a commission are
voting on this evening. There's going to be multiple other opportunities and time for you to ask questions and etc. So, Katherine, if you don't mind, can you run through this process again? And it's
>> Sure. >> Yeah. >> Sure. So, um, tonight they're not deciding that this commission does not decide whether or not this neighborhood or any other neighborhood is becomes historically designated. It's, you know, they've reviewed the report, they take
your comments into consideration, and then they decide whether or not to refer it to the TC for further evaluation. Um the ordinance sets out the process for how a designation is decided. Um the
ordinance does not it does not factor in a vote from neighborhood homeowners. Um so if that's something you want to change the ordinance, you'd have to talk to the TC because they're the ones that vote on and adopt the ordinance changes. Um
but if you're not if for or against you you voice your opinion here today. You're free to voice your opinion to the TC who will ultimately be making the decision. Um but so the process from here is as if the commission tonight
decides to refer to the TC for further action then they'll look they'll look over the report they'll have a hearing you know they'll they'll discuss it at one of their meetings and then if they decide to move forward with the process it gets referred [clears throat] to the
planning board who then reviews the reports they review um the report that was drafted here our recommendation any comments from the TC then they make a recommendation back to the TC who will then at that point vote.
So there are there's still many steps along the process and many opportunities for you guys to have your voices heard whether it's for or against. Um and you know definitely lots of opportunity to ask more questions. And I know there was a comment um or a question earlier about
how if someone's not here tonight how they can get more information. Well, this session or all of our sessions are recorded and available on YouTube, so they can go back and watch and, you know, listen to tonight's hearing or any other hearing if you want to see what
the process is like for, you know, other for people that have gone have to go through the process. Um, and any questions about the process in general, all you have to do is call and ask. Um, you know, anybody on this commission would be more than happy that, you know, and township staff more than happy to
answer questions about the process. Um, but tonight is just the first step in a multi-step process. And tonight isn't a decision either way. This commission does not make the decision, the ultimate decision. So, with that said, I'd like to add what
we're looking at is do we as a commission believe that this neighborhood is worthy of design? That's what we're voting on tonight. Does it meet the criteria in our ordinance to push it forward to the TC? Okay. So,
that's what we're voting on tonight. Um disputing that. I think we've heard multiple, you know, disputes on this. Uh certainly, again, you can dispute that in front of the TC. Um but just so you
know, that's what we're looking at. doesn't meet the criteria and I know Mr. is going to share with us again and how it doesn't meet the criteria and we appreciate that. We I think we've all heard but if you feel like you one one
more time here but >> no I I I think I need to maybe more than one more time the the the criteria are in the ordinance. >> You don't make the criteria in the 101 page document because you haven't shown in that document that we are historic
district. You have limited amounts of description. You have one and a half pages. Certain things can be laughed at like saying that we have we're historic because the roads are curricular because our road. You've got things in here where you try to
uh tie this up with um Stuart Hart. Stuart Hart died in 1917. He had nothing to do with the states. Nothing. and but he's his name is mentioned. You mentioned four individuals in this thing um who are just ordinary folks. I'm sure
they were very nice people. The one I like the best is H van Brunt McKa. I wish I had a name like that. It's a terrific name, but he has no claim to fame at all. He's not a star of nothing. You you the you only mention one
architect whose name was Kenneth W. Dao. Now, Dao Zel is a very obscure artist. Daozelle is not well known. He has no fame as an architect in the United States. His main claim to fame, as far as I can tell, he may have designed a
house in Short Hills, which was either demolished or never built. And perhaps he built a house for himself, but I'm not sure. But his main claim to fame, he built mediumsized houses in Maplewood. If you go to Maplewood, Gazelle houses are everywhere. But in short hills,
nowhere. You haven't shown any architectural pedigree in the houses. They I don't you know, sorry, you have nothing in your materials that show any
architectural pedigree at all. You don't list the architects. You don't list particular types of architecture. It's completely silent on the issue. So if we have to have significant historical architectural um
things to show we the the district doesn't make it. It's not a historical district under the ordinance. So I'm afraid you don't have the authority to even recommend it for >> I appreciate. >> Okay.
there. So, so that's what I'm saying on this. And I I don't think there's any other way to look at it because you don't have the information in this document. All right? I don't know who wrote the document, but you don't put didn't put enough information in. You might want to go back and revise it and put more
information in. You might want to explain why the district is in fact historical or why the houses architecturally are distinguished. They are wonderful houses. Everybody loves to have the neighborhood, but we're talking
about a definition in an audience. >> Thank you. >> All right, let me let I'm going to just >> No, let me read you one piece from the brochure because it's very very important. I read you this one piece because I do not want to embarrass
anybody. >> I mean, we we're we're trying to keep, you know, time limits. There were there are other people that, you know, had questions. I know, you I will let me read it because I don't want to embarrass you. But if you I will embarrass you if you don't let me read it.
>> No, but now we will not. So can you please sit down and we will let other >> even though you is a racist piece. >> Well, >> even though this is a racist piece, first of all, we did not write this. >> So you included it in your material.
>> Sir, we have to put all facts in the material. So I'm going to ask you to please sit down here right now. >> We encourage your weird you and we appreciate your comments. >> You actually haven't. >> Okay. Can I I'll I'll get I'm happy to
give a thought to somebody else. There's >> I have a question on >> Can you please >> what happens next from here? How would we know about your decision? So is it going to be posted on the website? Am I
refreshing some Google something tomorrow? I just want to know how will I know what you have decided today. Second question from here. You're saying it's close to township. I think some of the township committee members are here. Three of them are I think here. How many
votes are needed in township committee members out of five who approve it from to go to the planning board? Third. Does any part of this process here township committee planning board back to township committee actually will do
any kind of board collection [clears throat] to see how many are pro or cons? There are two sides here against it and for it. Both sides believe they have majority because a lot of people are just not interested or not
even here they are in Florida. So is there a formal vote collection or not? That once this committee decides, township committee decides, planning board decides, again, township committee decide, the decision is done and 45 of
these homes have only made to oppose it. But is there a vote collection? Is this something we're going to say who's up or not? Or just want to understand the process. >> Yeah. Well, certainly I can answer our side of the process. We'd like to take a
vote this evening if we move this forward to the TC. Um, I think we do have a couple of TC members here. I think I only see two, but maybe one of you would feel comfortable discussing
what happens on the level of the TC. >> Sure. >> Okay. [laughter] >> [cough and clears throat] >> So my understanding of the process is if the HPC votes tonight to advance it to the township committee, it will come before the township committee will be
another public hearing. Um and then the township committee members will vote on it. If there are more than 20% of the homes in the area that to be designated that
oppose it and do so with a formal petition, then we [clears throat] require four out of five votes in order to advance it. Uh if there is less than 20% protesting, then only three votes are required. Okay. Now, uh, as a
township committee member, when I look at something like this, um, I will look at all of the letters that I received. I've received a lot of letters in support. I've received some letters, uh, opposed. Um, I personally am going to go through and I'm going to look at who
submitted the letters, who signed the petitions, and I'm going to do my own tally, and I'm going to determine for myself. This is just and I'm not speaking for other TC members, but the way I will approach this is I will look and say, "Okay, do the majority of people in this neighborhood want it?"
Um, the other thing that I'm going to look at and examine is I've received a lot of letters from people that have said they don't want this and they've cited specific reasons and those specific reasons are based on misinformation or in some cases completely false. Um, so what I would
encourage for anyone here that has concerns or questions to take the HPC up on their offer, talk to them individually. I I know Allison quite well. I've worked with her over the years and I know that when I have a
question, I call her and she takes all the time uh needed to explain it and you know uh I would encourage you guys to to do that because I think there is a lot of misinformation out there. Um, and [clears throat] you know, I think ultimately it's up to
the residents. You guys should be the ones to decide if you want this, but you should have the right information. And um, at the moment, you know, the last tally I did, it seemed like there were more people that wanted this than that's how I'm going to approach it.
That's what >> Thank you, Frank. Except for the fact that I thought maybe you were kind of adding that I talk a lot. >> [laughter] >> She'll take all the time you need. No, we're we're trying to make light of this
even though it is your own personal property. Okay. But we do take it very seriously. This whole commission does and I want everybody to know that. So I think we have a couple more and then >> did I saw your hand raised? >> I have a question.
>> Yes. Can you come up to the podium and let us know who you are? And >> hi, Susan Mansfield, One Woodfield Drive. I am not on schedule A and I really don't know what that means for me. Am I'm not conforming or I'm
conforming. I'm not either one. So, what does that how does this affect me? >> Am I part of the neighborhood? on this >> you I believe you are on the 200 foot list >> of letting you know that the district so
you you wouldn't be part of that historic district >> so I have okay so none of this will affect me >> uh none of this will affect you >> in other words you're not I I I hate that word effect >> but it's not a neighborhood thing it's like individual houses on your list
>> no it is a boundary and certainly there is a map to be had and it's on the table here. No, I called. I think my neighbors are people across the street are neighbors are but >> across the street. >> It's only one side of the street. >> Makes no sense.
>> Okay. Because I Yeah. Did not understand that. >> So there has to be a boundary. Okay. And what the developer purchased from the Taylor estate and then made it into this development. >> Okay. >> Okay. In the 20s. >> Okay. >> Thank you.
>> You're welcome. Oh, I have one more question for the other people. Is this process go in phases? Like is this phase one with the schedule A? Is there going to be another >> part of that going forward or we we just
said that what happens is we figure out this this commission is going to decide whether or not this has history to move it forward deemed historic. Um, then it goes through the TC with their hopefully
next meeting. >> No, I understand the process, but I'm saying like >> will my house ever be considered to be historic like or am I out of it for good? Like will you do [laughter] more houses? >> I don't know. I mean, it seems
neighbors across the street but not very, you know, I'll be honest with you. We have multiple areas that could be considered for historic designation to say that your you know where your road
begins and I I >> know it won't be me later. >> I can't I can't say I really don't know. >> Okay. >> I have a question. >> I just had a quick question on the process. >> Um I know he says it's your turn. you
you'll do the vote and you'll take the vote and there's been a lot of like opinions and you know definitions and whether you fit >> well are there any like objective criteria that you're focused on here that I just so I understand what's because a lot of it's like
>> was it established in 1928 as historic versus you know or is it more of looking at what it looks like now or or like I guess I'm just trying to understand what's going to lead your vote here just so there's been a lot of like opinions and how it affects people. But I'm
almost more focused on to his point is it historic and is that is that what the determination is like and how do you go about that thinking >> and maybe we'll let Matt speak on that as soon as we if you don't mind Matt um
but this gentleman had a question >> and name and >> yeah Vivian Kar res of seven tribe that's a contributing property my question is especially to the voting like in in a home like let's say I am
against or I am favor and my wife is other so there are two votes or it's going to be considered as a >> single [laughter] I've taken it you agree. [laughter] So is that going to be like separate like that's a question maybe
whoever where doing the voting >> well how you vote you would cancel each other out right if you're in this room >> okay >> so it's not like address like individual >> it is an address
>> yeah there isn't there isn't a vote for the name >> you can voice your opinion to you know tonight you can voice your opinion to the TC See, you can, you know, sign a petition in support or in opposition. Um, so you and your wife are both free
to do, you know, voice your opinions either way, you know, one way or another. Um, but there is no vote of the property owners. >> Okay. Thank you. Got it. >> So Matt, if you don't mind, um there
seems to be some questions about how we why we call this historic, >> what why >> Yeah. So by the definition of uh the National Park Service, anything over 50 years old is considered historic. >> Do you speak up?
>> Yes, sir. Uh by the definition, anything over 50 years old is considered historic. uh that now kind of all encompasses ranch houses, drop ceilings, stuff like that. Uh, and there are levels to,
I guess, historic districts in their level of significance, whether it just be a really nice collection of tutor style houses like you guys have or an eclectic style of pre-war buildings that are all there that are all tutor and then the
advancement of the undeveloped lots that turn into the ranch the ranch styles or the colonial arrivals that come in later. It's not just it's not as black and white as I wish it could be, but even the development and the evolution of your neighborhood is considered
historic by in the grand scheme of things by that 50-year cuto off. And that's not a New Jersey thing. That's just a national thing. >> And so I'm just going to add to that. It should be clear, the ordinance does set out criteria that need to be met. um you
know that this commission you know so they're looking at the ordinance looking at the report and does the does the report satisfy the conditions of the ordinance >> um so there are there are there are criteria outlined >> and then someone was speaking about key
contributing I figured I'd clear that up uh there are some houses in here that are just you know one of one just incredible architectural uh achievements from the time, but usually key contributing is designed for
municipal buildings or churches. So that's kind of why there aren't any key contributing because that's that's usually how they're uh determined. >> Okay. Do we have anyone else? I'm afraid.
[laughter] >> Come on out, Mr. H. Thank you. Last time I was I just want Um I as I said I don't want to embarrass people but I do think it's important that we as a community make this point
in the in the brochure you put in the report it says Woodfield is sensibly and intelligently restricted. Um then it goes on to say the only real protection against encroachment by
undesirabs lies in attaining residence to a community so firmly foundable and so strongly held that no possibility can ever exist for lowering of the rigid restrictions.
That's a that was written in the 30s. That's a dogism. It says whites only. And it doesn't even say whites only. It says was. It says no Jews. We live in a community in our community
that's multi-racial. We have wasps like me. We have Jews like my wife. We have Asians. We have Indians. We have African-Americans. And I think as a township, this has got the seal of the township on the front
cover. We should all make a firm statement that we totally reject any types of restriction on who is free to live in our neighborhood. And I hope you will take the opportunity to refute this language and to make it clear that it
was a mistake to put it in the presentation. That's all I have to say. But that's why I don't want to embarrass you, but I want to give you the opportunity to please make it clear that this belief is no longer held by the township or this banking. Can I say
>> yes, Mr. Humphrey? I just want to say one thing. You made a point earlier that that was a private brochure and it may have the township stamp on it, but it was a private developer building those homes back then that made that statement. That's not representative of our township as a whole. And whether
there's a dog whistle in there or not, that BRU as well. You could [clears throat] be talking about classes. You don't want poor people coming into the community. It's not necessarily racial or other demographics. I'm not going to get into that semantics, but you can't have it both ways. It's either representative of
our community and we can use it as historical or it's a private document that was a developer took it on their own to say something that may not have been satisfactory to our current times. And >> so that's all I'm just that's what I'm saying. >> I'm I'm I'm just trying to make it clear
>> from a personal point of view. >> I strongly object to any restrictions on anybody who wants to live in my neighborhood >> and there are no restrictions. >> Can I just make it clear that it's it's actually illegal to put any kind of restrictions on. >> So So all you have to do I just gave you
an opportunity to refute this section of included. I leave it up to you whe you you take this opportunity but I I would have thought everybody would take the opportunity to say we don't agree with this these statements and we we don't we we refute this this position
there >> that's all I have >> I wanted to talk about I actually wanted to answer one of your design questions that's all I wanted because you talked specifically over and over again repetitively about um there not being any like any kind of beautiful history
in this or the Rose only. And I I want to talk about like if you clearly go through this document, you talk about, oh, there's some tutors in there. These tutor revival are stunning. Okay, they're stunning. The coursework on the brick is very unique. The quality level
of the construction doesn't exist today. There's leaded glass windows. They have more multiple gabled pieces and hand huneed wood pieces put in. They're not like a faux tutor today. So, I just want to throw that out there because that is one of the most special things about
that neighborhood and and that's, you know, and it's one of many. Okay? So, I just I want to bring that up. They're not just some random scooter homes. These are stunning homes and they all share a unique kind of continuity between each of them. So, I just wanted
to throw that out to you. So, I just >> I I totally agree with you. I live in one of them, but but it's that's not that wasn't my fault. And I didn't mean to add every time I [laughter] passionate about it. I should have You're passionate.
>> All I'm saying to you is that [clears throat] there are definitions of what historic history is that we don't need. >> Yeah, >> that's what I'm saying. And if there all this stuff about the truth, it's not in the 111 page report. You your what you said is not in your report. And I only
can live or die of what you choose to write. If you don't choose to write it, I don't know what to say. >> Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Can I assume we have no one else coming forward?
>> Great. Okay. So, now I'd like to take this time. First of all, any commissioners with any comments or questions or clarifications or and at this point, you know, this is we're we're going to talk amongst
ourselves here. um unless they direct a question to you. Okay. Um hearing none. No. Okay. Um that will move us then to um a vote. Um, do I hear a motion to
approve the designation of the Wood Woodfield Estate Short Hills historic district based on what Katherine our ordinance and the brochure that was given.
>> But just just to be clear, Alison, we're not making a designation. We are recommending that Correct. >> Thank you for that clarification. Thank you. >> [clears throat] >> Do I hear a motion? >> So move.
>> Do I hear a second? >> Second. [clears throat] >> Okay. Sarah. >> Allison Canfield? >> Yes. Robert Franle? >> Yes. >> Brad Jenkins? >> Yes. >> Gary Rosen? >> Yes.
>> Christine Best? Yes. Ray Kalcano? >> Yes. Okay, thank you very much. This is the end of the historic preservation commission meeting. So, thank you all for coming.
Really appreciate the time. >> Thank you. >> I'd like to return