I'd like to call this meeting to order and welcome everyone. Um, I will now read from the open public meeting statement. In accordance with section 5 of the Open Meetings Act, chapter 231, Public Laws 1975, be advised that notice
of this meeting was made posting on the bulletin board, but I'm not sure if it was town hall. Do you know? 22. I'm sorry. at 22 East Willow. 22 East Willow and serving the officially designated newspapers. A notice stating that this
meeting would take uh place and this location 4:34. What's the address? Milbourne Avenue. Okay. Um at 7:30 p.m. on May 1st, 2025. Please forgive me. We This is
new to everybody here today. So, thank you. Roll please. Yes. Alison Camp here. Elizabeth Wangga here. Christine Best here. Bankest Chaffalada. Robert Franco here.
Great. Um meeting minutes. The minutes of the April 3rd, 2025 meeting have been distributed to the commissioners. Are there any additions or corrections? Hearing none. Do I hear a motion to approve? So move. A second.
Second. Am I? Yeah. All in favor say I. I. I. Uh, minutes have been approved. Uh, memorializations application number 574121 Highland Avenue. Uh, it was Harry and Talia
Gross. Um, application number 59747 Wyoming Avenue. John and Patricia Mueller. and application number 599 17 Forest Drive Brett and Wendy
Prager. Do I hear a motion to approve the memorializations as listed from the April 3rd, 2025? So moved. Second. Yes. Perfect. Um roll please.
Allison Campfield. Yes. Elizabeth Wangga. Yes. Christine Vest. Yes. Bankada. Robert Franco. Yes. Great. Um and just for the record, uh
Vancet has just joined us. So, thank you very much. Um, our first app or advisory review is application number 608, Taylor Park Gateway, 100 Main Street, block number
88 804, lot number 10. It's a key contributing property, which I'm going to leave that out as of right now, but it is a uh contributing property to our town. Um, this is a referral
application and it's for the main street entrance and landscape improvements at the park. So, not sure who we have here to speak on that. Great.
Wonderful. You want to come on up and be sworn in? Wonderful. Hi. Can you say your name for record, please? Will Sudter. Can you spell your last name? S E W T E R. Okay. And do you swear the testimony
you're going to provide tonight will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Great. Please. Excellent. Also, we have that chalkboard. Do you want to should we? Okay, perfect. Okay.
So, a a brief history of what happened was Special Architectural Group was hired to do uh the design improvements of the Milward Avenue front entrance Taylor Park. Um and we provided, you might want to switch
to Yep. We worked very closely with the town of Milbour. Um, we learned the history about it, the importance of this park and tried to tie in many different factors uh through the history of this importance of this park. One of them
being uh the main elm tree that's been out there and understanding this park has just celebrated just passed its centennial um you know historical um you know date of history for this. We tried to tie in a lot of the connections
through the entirety of the community. tried to modernize some of the site amenities that were brought in and tried to, like I said, create little Easter eggs uh that we brought in and tied into a lot of the elements through uh the park itself. Some of them being the
stonework along the walls that you could see are going to um match the stonework at the Bower Community Center. So, that creates a nice tie-in there. the pavement. Uh we were tie into a lot of the improvements that are throughout the community along the uh corners at the
main street and Millward Avenue. We're including a logo of the seal that would be imprinted um into the pavement itself, providing a historical kiosk that provides the historical element and the history of the park itself. um tying
into lighting site amenities that would tie into the new lighting that's going on in Taylor Park as well. Uh modernizing some of the benches and trash cans that are throughout your community to bring them up to a little bit of a higher quality. Um but to the
average pedestrian that would pass by would not think anything differently than you know they would almost look the same. Some of the things that actually we tie to with the both the trash can and the uh benches themselves are little
emblems that almost have both a flower/ uh millhe look to it. And that's to tie in both the uh rose garden itself and the significance of that as well with the history of the millhe that's going on with the historical significance of
not only your town but also uh the site of the park itself. You can also see behind some of the pillars themselves are uh mill wheels again tying into a historical aspect that is a feature of the town and importance of it. Uh we are
re replicating the um right there the uh plaque that is on the commemorative rock in front of the elm tree. again tying in significance of surrounding the park, bringing in people that enter this park, opportunities to
learn a little bit of the history about it. Uh read a little bit about it and also have that you know that uh you know the drawing into of the park that when you read these signs, you really understand what's happening with the historical uh
significance of this area. A lot of this was discussed with both the town of Milbour um with Alex and Mave and and Tim um in understanding, you know, what we were looking for to improve it. One thing that we did always want to let people know is this project itself is
probably going to be a multi-phase, you know, approach to improvements of the park. What Speizel was hired to do was just the entrance to the park, not touch the park itself, not touch any of the Rose Garden, but really just take the frontage of the street of Milbert Avenue
and really about like 20 25 ft into the park. So, in no ways will we really be disturbing any of the Rose Garden, any of the features of itself. It's really just the entrance itself and creating a new segway from the street into the park.
Okay, Alex, you think if you propped it up on the chair, would that be easier for you? Maybe. There you go. Sweet. So, do you have anything else? Is that
Oh, sorry. Yeah. How does the actual rose garden space? We stop. Basically, we have a new ramp that's going to be, and I'll point it out. I'm sorry. Right
here. That new ramp is really just a ADA access into the park. And once we hit the existing asphalt uh pathway, we stop all, you know, construction. So, again, from that pathway in, we do not touch. We are presenting a little bit of new
landscape enhancements. All of our landscaping is 100% native. We were um you know very uh understanding that there was a new ordinance that was passed to meet a I think it was what was it 73% 75% native. We went above and beyond and
made all of our plant selection native. So 100% of the plant selections we are implementing would be native species. We are not creating anything that take away from the rose garden itself. It's more about uh you know aesthetics of natural
landscaping that create a natural buffer while you're in the rose garden that you don't necessarily see the street and the road above it and the traffic above it by just creating a little bit of buffer both with enhancing a little bit of the shrubs and providing some new uh trees
themselves. Uh most of them would be ornamental so that they would flower basically around the springtime and bring a little color in there. Uh we really try to pick the pinkish reddish tones of the color that highlight the color of the rose garden itself. But
again not trying to take away from anything of the rose garden that really made it seem like that these plantings were there from the original date of implementation of this park. Is that one of the entrances right now? The only entrances are actually and I'll
I'll step aside. So this is the existing elm tree that you have. So the existing entrances now uh go around the elm tree. One of the things we worked with was your forester. Um and they were very she was very you
know the elm tree is important. So we understand that. I mean it's a it's a huge elm tree. It's been around for you know longer than most of any of us probably any of us. And so what we wanted to do is take away from any disturbance that that made. And so we're going to eliminate all of that asphalt
around it. We're going to put a perimeter fence along the edge of that sidewalk. Uh we worked with and you can kind of see it here. That would be the fence. It's a very simple fence. It allows visualization into the park and out of the park. That way you don't feel
like there's a perimeter as you walk along Milward Avenue that you're not welcomed into the park. But the point was to save the elm tree, get the entrance away from there, eliminate that asphalt that's around there, and allow more um water, more vegetation, more
arration for the elm tree to survive a little bit longer. So there that is a new entrance, but the you know the the area around it is existing. Now, in terms of impervious coverage, that's a lot of things that we
actually talked about. we are actually reducing the imperous coverage um from the existing that is there. So the the walkway itself tends to uh bend a little bit and that's to replicate the canopy around the elm tree. So as you get
closer to the commemorative rock in the elm tree, it actually starts to pinch at that point. It's still actually about almost an 8 foot wide area. So it still is allowable for pedestrians to walk in either direction. And actually 8 foot is really even allowable for people on
bicycles to go both ways. So there is ample room. I know Milbour Avenue does have a lot of traffic. So you won't feel like you're right up onto that curb area and vehicles are coming close by, but then it does start to widen as you go
around on both directions. Again, that's kind of give you that, you know, little um significance of the elm tree canopy overhead. The area where we are presenting the new uh entrance itself is actually set back more so than it is
existing. It's about uh 18 feet in. Um there is a little bit of a wider entrance. We're putting benches over there. That is where the historical kiosk is. There we have new benches that would be replacing the uh existing green benches with the plaques. We talked with
the town and the uh intent would be to keep those benches and replace the benches that are inside the park, the little wooden ones that have a little bit of wear and tear. So, what's happening is you're almost improving that by keeping the same ones. We're bringing in the new uh benches for the
outside of the park. Um I know there were already a couple of questions, but um has anybody have any questions, please. Um, I can go last. No, go ahead. Go
ahead. Um, I um I have quite a few questions. So, um, so the the teak benches, I mean, I I actually just walked through the park this past weekend and, um, the teak benches, you know, have sort of not a
Chip and Dale style, but sort of an English garden aesthetic to it, which is really appropriate with that rose garden. And, um, they usually will, if they're good quality benches, will last for a long time. Are they in disrepair that they can't be just powerwashed and
reused? Because I I think the aesthetic of them are quite nice. So, I was just curious like as to why we're replacing those. That was my first question. So, I would be careful about power washing because I I don't know. They're natural wood. So, when you power wash it, you can start to splinter it. Once
you splur it, well, they're teak. They look like they're teak. I'm just confirming to ask Alex if they are teak. Because if they're teak, they can easily be powerwashed. I was just curious. Sure. Can you state your name for the record, please? Alexander McDonald. Do you swear
to the testimony you're going to provide tonight with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Um, so I think to answer that question, we can certainly evaluate the condition more so of those benches. Again, it was just an those benches that are currently on the
outside of Teller Park will be reused, I think, is the larger point. Um, they'll be reused somewhere. We'll we'll find the appropriate space for them. those benches that are in the rose garden feel more appropriate or are can be salvaged in a way. Um sometimes they do call, you know, if they are in disrepair, they
will be a liability. People sit on them, they break, whatever it is. Um but we can evaluate that further. Okay. Um uh so and and then I'm just confused. I've seen like a lot of different aesthetics going on throughout the town and so can you describe the the trash cans because
we have a multiple different styles of trash cans and there's a lack of consistency throughout the town. So we have bright royal blue trash cans that are, you know, um painted metal. We have green ones that have plastic black bags around them. We have the more modern
style ones. And um so we're going to now have like a fourth or fifth style introduced into the township. So I was just trying to understand the consistency and like how we can have a consistency throughout the township so it looks like solid. Just throwing that
out. Sure. And that was one of the things that we discussed, you know, how to what's the best approach of creating something. One of the things that we liked about this one was two things. one was the the the symbol that we discussed, the fact that it ties in almost the rose to it as well. There is
a connection between that and the benches itself. So, the style does match that. The third one is the side loading that allows somebody to take out the bin that you don't have to lift up the top, pull it out, there might be a hole, you start to stretch it out. So, these were things like I said that we tried to
modernize and bring up the quality of what's out there. the fixture itself does match some of the trash cans that you have out there. And that's part of the things that not only we we see both in your town but in other projects that we work with is this how do you create
unity amongst a a wide range of variety out there that has been done for years. And the best way to start it is kind of start what works. And one of the things we discussed are like I said what are the things that we want to do? We wanted
to bring and tie into the history of the significance of both the town and the park itself. That was the emblems. We wanted to bring unity of something that matched. It's not a brand new entity that doesn't match anything and all of a sudden we're bringing in a stainless
steel one that's modern. This matches the benches which the benches kind of match other benches that you have throughout the town. The third one is it's not something that stands out that should you walk by it, it's totally different from anything else. It is just
a trash can. It is black. It does hide around the back. You know, we are only presenting one trash can and one recycling area there. Um this was something that we we discussed and again it does match most of them out there and it sets a standard as something that you
can use throughout the town. And I think the further answer that question is that this style does match the the bright described. Um it's a different color. Obviously different uh but it is the same style. The trash cans that were uh placed in the downtown area in
connection with the the complete streets project which are the they're very lovely because they're so subtle. They blend into the background. That's why I was wondering why you wouldn't take those into the park. They are a nightmare as as it relates to the uh the
uh style of it because when people put stuff in the trash can there's a gap between the bin and the teak and so trash falls in between there and it actually causes a littering issue. Um, so it is something that, you know, again, we're hopeful that we can
continue to phase out those trash cans, um, only because they do cause an issue and and with the way that they're configured. Okay. Um, I'll jump in. Oh, yeah. Yeah, feel
free. How many phases could is this park predicted to be? Three, four? So, as as you know, there's a lot in Taylor Park, not just in this particular area, but um you know there is lighting
being installed in Taylor Park. Um the the playground will eventually um probably be before all of you um at some point when they redo that playground with the $750,000 grant that the town received. Um and you know there's the um
there's a historical kiosk going in on the other side regarding the battle of Springfield and the Revolutionary War. Um and this particular part of the park I think was envisioned in three phases. Um as you as you know we've been down
this road before. Um we went to do a a revamp of the gateway to Taylor Park. It was a project that um did not gain steam mostly because of its impact to the rose garden and people's um uh concerns about
the cost and the overall scope of it. So it was instructed by the township committee at the time for us to approach this in a in a scaledback version address the front of the park um with a certain dollar amount that was provided by authorized by the township committee
and so this is the first of that and so if we can find success in this effort then we can move on to a subsequent phase. Uh again, I think even if we talked in the second phase of the rose garden, it would be the outside of the rose garden, like the the vegetation on
the outside uh and the path and and probably not much more than that. So, my understanding is that uh the current path isn't going to be there anymore or it's going to be blocked off because it's going to be fenced at the road. It's going it's going to be ripped up. Okay.
Because right now if if just from my experience and what I've seen our forester and our shade tree department do as it relates to that almost 200 year old elm tree and there aren't many elm trees around anymore because of Dutch elm disease. This is probably one of the best specimens you'll see. Um they
actually have been out there and they cultivate the roots. They cut the roots. They make sure the roots are growing the correct way. Um and so we're going to eliminate that asphalt to take the pressure off of that tree and its root system. Okay. Um, is there I mean when I look at this
particularly the new entrance, you either have to go up and around or you go down and around the rose garden. Now I know the rose garden is a very touchy subject, right? But if you look at the pathways and the original landscape plan
um by it's Brinley and Hullbrook that was on purpose to get the actual walkway. Now it's kind of at an angle and it dumps you right into the actual rose garden itself and not a pathway to directly go than into the park. Do
you can you tell me why maybe that was chosen instead of connecting around the tree? And I'm I'm just curious because the road or But it's it's the same it's it's the same reason. You can't have it I think I think part of it is you can't
have it both ways. You either help protect the elm tree and maintain the elm tree or you have the path go over the elm tree system and straight into the park. Right. And there's also an ADA accessibility issue with the with the topography of the park at that point to be able to provide access to everyone
that wants to enjoy the park. And that's why the ramp exists and why it's why it's constructed. No, I I agree with the ramp. I'm just saying if you look at the historic um Brinley and Hullbrook design, and I can certainly show you. I
I did take a copy of this. Um, it purposely goes into that, let's just call it that circle and the walkway is more direct into the park. Yep. We actually investigated different areas to
bring in entrances. We looked at having multiple entrances, one on either side of the elm tree. I think to Alex's point, you know, the the main thing we wanted to do was to avoid where the elm tree was. Unfortunately, the elm tree is dead center to where that axis lines up.
So, to Alex's point, you he's right. You know, to eliminate that, you're eliminating the axis point. So, then you get to you want to one side versus the other. We ended up staying with this side because one, it is closer to the center of your town. So, the majority of
people are going that way. There is a bus stop local in proximity to that area. So, anybody coming on and off the bus stop might have the opportunity of saying, "It's a beautiful day." Like today, let me go investigate into the park. Let me go enjoy myself for 10
minutes. I have a little bit of time. It's an area again that while they're waiting for a bus stop, maybe they sit back, they sit there, they read a little bit about the plaque, they read a little bit about the historical kiosk, they have opportunity for that. We also
looked at having, like I said, two uh entrances for that. One of them was going to be right across from the crosswalk um crossing over Milbour Avenue so that as you walked across that there was an entrance right in there. Unfortunately, because of budget, we just couldn't afford that. But there's
opportunity. What we did was we allowed and that's something that we always do at Spizzos try to create designs that have opportunities for future, you know, enhancements that it's not a you're pigeonhold to this is the design and you can't really do anything about it. So,
we talked about whether or not there was an opportunity to present an entrance on that other site aligning with the uh crosswalk. There still is. Unfortunately, because of budget, that just wasn't that was something that we scaled back. That way, we stayed within budget. Of course, if that's something
that you know the town wants to proceed with, that could be something that's decided when you do the second phase or third phase or even that's a different phase itself of just creating that walkway there. We are providing a gate there or a fence there. I'm sorry. All
you would have to do is remove the fence panel and create we already have like a theoretical design. Um because you guys hired us that design is yours. So you have that should you not hire SPEL that is your property to you know do with as
you please. Um but it was something that it wasn't like a Speizzel presented a design and Neil Burn was like okay this is it and we were just like let's roll with it. We went through many weeks and variations. We talked about it. We sat on it. We thought about it. We weighed the pros and cons. Um, this was just
something that we settled on. Like I said, the the main driving factor was always the elm tree because again, once you start to mess with that and that goes, it's such a significant piece not only to the road itself, but also that entrance. If you lose that, you you're
really going to lose something. And again, the size of the canopy, the size of it, you will never be able to replace. And to say, oh well, in 200 years I can replace that. Who's to say in 200 years that would, you know what I mean? So, like that was something that was that we
really wanted to focus on and that's kind of why we, you know, worked around it to the case in point of where we decided for the entrance. The angle of itself does kind of bring into the center. So as you walk down it, you do get the focal point of the center of the
rose garden. It isn't 100% for that, but that is just so that we could make an ADA accessible ramp into the garden, which again, like Alex said, you did not have. So now you're not only creating a new entrance, but you're saying anyone disabilitywise in a wheelchair, in a
walker now has the opportunity to get into this space as per code. I understand. I just add two points to that. One is I don't think when they originally planned out the garden, they probably intended or anticipated that that elm tree would be what it is. Um
today in addition um we did talk about providing sort of a a an extension of that that piece that straight piece so that people could stand there and observe you know the elm tree, enjoy the elm tree. And then of course if something should ever happen to the elm
tree um I think you can always discuss whether that that becomes a another right where is Elry on that on that um illustration there can you just point where the the so so you okay so it's
literally okay because you realize when you put that fence in and all the fence posts and lift everything up that you're going to disturb the root system on that tree as well as just leaving it so the the fence is actually um further in the where your existing
pavement is. By how many feet from the trunk? It's probably about from the trunk itself. We're about a foot and a half in front of the um commemorative rock itself. So, your sidewalk pretty much goes almost to the commemorative rock right now. So,
we're creating a little bit more buffer room from that area for that. So that's why I said we're removing some of the pavement and adding and adding that fence for protection so that people don't start to tread on that area and compact the soil for that. I mean, but you could
accomp thank you. I mean, I just wanted to throw something out there because I spent some time like looking at the the park go just going back to what Alison was saying. sorry about um you know having a master plan because I think
that when you start to do things in sections I I'm sorry when you start to do things in sections it gets very broken and I I mean I know that we have a budget but I would rather see the whole budget go towards design and design the entire park and then take it if it's a 10-year
plan you know literally say we're doing this section we're doing this section um versus just going in and just designing segments um it's you know much more productive and it gives a flow that's cohesive um in line with the original
vision of what you know Allison was discussing. I also wanted to just I do have a comment just quickly. Um the thing that's really beautiful the thing about the park that's really so sad is it's just in disrepair. So if you went in and put in boxwoods that are not I
think they look like they're American or English boxwoods or some iteration of that they're dying and just replaced that and left the rose garden intact and actually planted grass that was living and mulched and weeded and came in and replaced instead of doing really you
know high-end um you know stamp concrete and literally just did like a clay path with crushed you know blue stone that's super fine which is really great on the feet to walk on. A lot of park systems are doing that now. And just really focused on maybe, you know, redirecting
a path for ADA people on the right hand side that's more hidden and tucked away and is less severe and then possibly, you know, still using that flow because what like that tree is there and like, you know, you could put up some, you know, um just curb stone or something. I
I don't know. So, I mean, I don't see people like walking all over the roots personally, but I like the fact that you see into the park, and that's the beauty of it. Even that that that gazebo, it's just in disrepair. Like, literally, it's pretty solid. Like, it could be repainted, I mean, and fully stripped
down by a skilled carpenter and maybe re-shingled. There's just a lot there that's really beautiful. And, you know, I I feel like we're putting all this money into sort of a fence that closes it in and makes it feel gated out. But that's just my opinion and that might
actually damage the tree more. But just like I'm just giving you an overview of my thought. Sorry. No, absolutely. I think you make a a lot of valid points and and and so I I will try to hit on a couple of the things that that you mentioned and let me just replace the
board. So, a few things. We we did a road study and we looked at where the views are into the park. And so, your your your one comment, which was later on in your sentence, was the view into the park and the gazebo itself. And you could see from this point, you can actually see
the gazebo. So, that was one of the things that we looked at was getting you centered into that area. Um, another thing that you uh mentioned was uh about the enhancements of the garden with the boxwoods and the the pathways. That was not in our scope. Again, our scope was
only in the entrance. So, we do not have the authority or the implementation of putting in any enhancements to the park. One of the things that we discussed was that like you said that you start to segment that you only start to design
this and how do you phase from A to B and how do you make that seamless. That was why I said when we worked with the landscape and that was one of the things that Speizzel very much questioned was how do we enhance the landscape that gives opportunity that when one that it
looks like it's natural. It's not like all of a sudden you only enhanced up to this line and you could see enhancement, you could see natural. That was one of the things we looked at. The other one was when you do finally go through that second phase of bring bringing in new
enhancements that we allow the opportunity for plantings and other elements to transition through both segments that it's not again if Speasel doesn't get hired or if another design firm gets hired, how do they tie into what we did? So we were very um
cognizant of how those tie-ins would happen and how those abilities did. So what we did with the landscape was very minimal but enhanced what was there by what was being removed when construction was there. Uh another point you had was about the fencing and like I said we
originally talked about bringing some of that stonework fencing along a little bit wider bringing in a little bit of a wings to enhance that um entrance that was being brought in. The concern was exactly as you raised that were you going to fence off and almost create a
perimeter where you're a pedestrian outside the park versus someone that's inside the park. You know there there's a very fine line and that's why while we looked at fencing we looked at opportunity of creating how to eliminate horizontal bars. So visually you have that opportunity to look in there. Is
there opportunity that we could widen the vertical bars per code? You really can't do that because of the grade. So, we tried to find the least offensive fence that we could find. The fact that it's black again, it's not white, it's not a color, it's something that would
almost blend in a little bit. Um, so, you know, that was something that we investigated heavily on. You're you made another comment about could you bring in ADA on the other side, the right or left, opposite of the side that we're working on. Unfortunately, because of
grade that is not the um best area to do it. You would have to actually create like a back and forth ramp to do that on the gray chains a little bit higher versus the distance
from the existing uh walk asphalt walk itself. Would we, you know, if we had the opportunity to change where that asphalt walk was? You know, maybe we could provide a little bit more run to meet that opportunity. Again, that that's that was not the side that works with ADA. So again making this an ad
accessible entrance the side that we are presenting now was the you know premier spot to work with. Uh so I think uh there may have been one more and I I I forget if there was something that I didn't hit you know feel free to let me know. And
what what makes that entrance not ADA? Excuse my ignorance today. Um you know is it because it doesn't have an appropriate railing or The grade is too steep. The grade is too steep by how many? Like by a lot or I mean is it by a
few feet? So in order to have a ramp you need it to be you know about 8%. Okay. Once it's over that then it does not meet ADA standards. And so what happens is usually it's about you know one foot for every 20 foot. That's usually this the size of how you run it. You're about
like three or three and a half 3 like six feet grade change. You just don't have that run. So that's why I said you would have to do what's called like a switch back which means you kind of have to go right and then you got to go left. The difficult part about that is that creates more impervious coverage. That
creates more ripping out of area that creates more of a focal point of now you have this huge ramp system out there is that something that you know Alex described this park as almost like a secret garden. And you know us at Speizzel we went out there we we spent
many hours there. We sat out there. We talked to people that were out there. Uh we saw the events that go on there. Um you know, we we talked to residents that were passing by. We talked to residents that were doing, you know, you have a very high Asian culture that goes in the park. And I talked to many of them
during the morning ones. You also have a preschool class that goes out there do music classes. And so a lot of them talked about the the fact that they enjoyed that it has a, you know, oldness feel of it, that it's been there longer than they have. And so what we really wanted to do was hide the fact that
we're improving this. And that's why I said a lot of the landscape improvements that we're doing are stuff that we felt that when put in it would almost look like that that had been there since the beginning that it wasn't like we're just throwing in new plants and all of a sudden it's an English cottage garden
along the outside and then we're competing with the rose garden. We really wanted to feel like that we didn't bring new elements to the garden that we just kind of touched up and improved it from what was there from, you know, a hundred years ago.
So, go ahead. I guess see I think your statement contradicts actually what you've done here. So, like I look at the plan and I do agree it is a secret garden. It's a park that you meander through. And what this entrance is looks to me like a city park that you need to
close the gates at night to keep people out of. This is not to me this is very heavy-handed for what we have here. The entrance now is so subdued that you just walk into it and all of a sudden you're
in this park. This is like this to me does not even spell any of those things. Like if you can just look at the historic plan, it is all about meandering curves, gentle access. And this is not gentle. It's it's very large
columns. It's tall gates. It's not it's not, you know, you could put something if you wanted to protect the tree that was low that would kind of deter people from going there. This is as if you were keeping everybody out of the garden
except for when they're allowed to go there and you know and so I think it's a strange answer to the question and but your statement actually you wanted to create what you are saying that this is a hidden garden
and this is a meandering and this goes with the historic design of the park but it doesn't it's very heavy-handed. And I guess my other question is, and I do agree, I think we need to really see what the tree protection plan is for
construction for this because I'm not sure if this plan that you have is just not correct, but your protection plan is basically you're putting a fence right through the middle of it, which maybe the plan is just not correct. But to me,
it looks like the canopy that you're looking to protect the tree root, you're driving this project right through the middle of it. So, I guess those are my main comments is that I think you would need to really come back with a real true construction protection plan for
this tree, outline that on the plan, and see what permanent improvements you're going to put in that area. I would like to see that at some point. I'm sure the arborist would like to see that as well. So really hire somebody that does construction tree plans, which there are many people out there that protect trees
during construction and they will give you the full root system and where you shouldn't put any permanent building in there. So I don't know if you've done that yet, but I think that's an important next step. And then I would also really like to see less here and then we could do more. We could do more
improvements to the park if we got rid of the fence. If we got rid of these heavy wheels on the side like this isn't Yeah. It just it doesn't go with the park at all or with what your statement is. I agree with your statement, but I
don't agree with it. Oh, sorry. Is that so we are conflicted um as you stated because The real impetus of this project was a
downtown vision plan that asked for and and stated that there should be more of a draw into the park, right? Like a something that is noticeable to people as they walk by, as they as they drive by. So there is there is a conflict
inherently based on the fact that it is, you know, a a secluded space right next to Milburn Avenue. It is a people are trying to we're trying to draw people into the park but also keep it a secluded space that people can enjoy. Um
so there you're absolutely right. It's a it's conflicted to a degree right from the beginning because we're trying to balance those two aspects. um you know the I think as far as the tree protection um the township has a
forester on staff um that is a licensed tree expert all of those things who has been involved in this project from the get-go um has seen every iteration of the plan um is actually taking it upon herself toward uh be the one to remove
the asphalt from the roots if you know uh this project moves forward um and and be a part of that construction aspect around the tree in the county. So just again, I'm not refuting anything you said. I'm just letting you know. No, I'm just worried that you're going to get to that point
and you're going to realize that there's issu I'd rather have you come to those issues before you get to that point. If if it's if if truly you can build around it, that's fine. It's just that the drawing that you did here showing that you're going right through the tree protection plan. You need footings for
that are probably at least 2 ft deep for those walls. More than that if you need. So the walls itself are outside of the uh tree canopy which is basically how the root system goes. That tree canopy is about 108 110 ft wide. So we are outside of
that. Um typically that is how root um systems you know when where when you calibrate where trees are based on uh where they could go. So we do fall outside of that. That was again one of the things that we looked at where entrances falls and that's kind of why we positioned it where it was not you
know too far outside not too far to the left. We made sure that we stayed outside of that and that was why we eliminated some of those wing walls that I originally talked about in terms of the fencing the fencing. Can I say though your your plan that you presented is incorrect then are you can you
correct the plan then because what you're showing here is I mean you can see the fence right under the tree. Yeah, this is I don't think those construction. So, what I'm hearing here is if it's not
what's on this page and this is part of the construction documents, they probably need to reflect what's really happening there. I mean, these are Yeah. Yeah. I mean that that was you know we're going
off of an aerial um where you know again I'm I'm I'm not going to you know I'm I'm not trying to defend you know what what we didn't present because that is work but you know typically when Google Earth is actually on an angle so you know we have a survey of exactly where
the tree falls where the elevations lie where all of that is that was something that when we created the documentations for that that we made sure that we stayed outside of that. Well, maybe that's something that Alex maybe you can share with um I was under the impression that that the construction documents
that you put together were provided to the they weren't but we are they online or where are they? Do you know we'll send you the construction? Yeah. Okay. Which brings up point I'm going to pull it back to history
I did just want to make one point if I ju just a quick one. One of the things that we talked about with the fencing along the perimeter is it actually undulates. So in terms of the height itself, it's actually both a 4 foot, which is probably, you know, about that tall to a three-foot. And the three-foot
actually lowers at areas of significance. So across from where the crosswalk is right now across Milberg. So again, visually as you walk across there, you have more eyesight into the park at the commemorative rock itself and at the elm tree again. so that when
you get closer to it, you have that connection to it and about probably about like four feet feet from the edge of the um column. So then this rendering is
because that fence is very tall. So the Well, you're basically saying the the stonework section of the fence is only for the little mini courtyard, correct? Correct. Yes. The stonework itself is only going to be at a five
foot height. There's a 20 uh inch foot wall. It's called a knee wall. And then there's a three-foot fence on top of that. That fence is going to be rot iron. Again, there's some little Easter eggs in there. They've got some little rose petal flowers in there again to tie
into that. So again, I am 6'4. So the top of that, you know, um pillar and the top of that fence is probably only going to be that tall. So your point is it's just a regular fence that's going to be hitting through the trees. Correct. Yes. Yes. It's not like an 8 foot tall. It's
not as you know that exist. Correct. So I have a I have a history question. How did the gateway term come up? That's just the term that was used in the
Okay. because I I think there might be some historic confusion because there is the Wyoming gateway. Um so through history that might become somewhat if somebody said you know the gateway now you have the gateway to the
park if that's what it's going to be called. I don't care. Okay. But I'm just bringing up historic things that maybe just to think about um and suggestions. Um, also the, you know, maintenance, um,
you know, we talked about funding and and all this other stuff. I think to have wood mill wheels or whatever that could be a very So the wheels are actually steel with a wood facade look to them. So there would not be any
maintenance. And one of the things that we actually talked about too, no, I I don't mean was that you have brick pavers along that walk. And so there's the unsettling of that and and the maintenance of it. So one of the things that we looked at was creating more of just concrete for there and then some
stamped concrete along the edge which would replicate the brick. Again creating that opportunity that you know you have so much brick throughout your town and there's so much historical aspects with the brick itself that we didn't want to totally eliminate the brick. But this also prevents the
maintenance like you said of settling having to replace any that break settle. Um, but it ties in there that that brings that connection that again allows the opportunity of material looking to connect with other areas of your town.
And I tend to disagree with that because I think the maintenance on some of these more true materials instead of stamped concrete, you know, but that's debatable. What true material? Well, I mean like, you know, more solid materials and done properly, whether
it's with brick or whatever. I mean, in my house, I have brick that's over a hundred years old that's still Yeah. I I think that I think that what we've noticed with and and to that that brick that was installed throughout the downtown was done. So, I believe I want
to say it was somewhere in the 80s based on a grant that was received by a lot of towns. You see these brick edgings on the sidewalks in downtown. Um, so I don't I don't know that it has like a a tie to the community at all except for it was probably an aesthetic project um
at some point, right? Um, the the they are it is a maintenance nightmare. A maintenance nightmare and then it's always a conversation with the town to the property owner who's responsible for that break. I mean, we installed it sometime, you know, you know, 50 years ago, whatever it was, who's responsible
for maintaining that? It settles. There's there's there's woods that pop up. We actually had somebody ridden their bike and a brick had I guess gone vertical for some reason whether a kid placed it that way or they ran into the brick they wrecked their bike you know these these are things and we got a
torque claim for it it is it is a maintenance all the things that you have to take in consideration certainly with a maintenance the aspect of how this is being built is is from that perspective low right um I'd like to go back and say
you know the thing that scares me the most is is that it's being done in phases. And let me let me explain why. Because this particular landscape architect who designed this particular park was
chosen. And just so you know their background, they did work for the New York Botanical Gardens. Uh they've done work for the Morristown Green that was built in the 1600s and very little of it changed except for landscaping.
Um they've done the Maplewood Memorial Park. Uh for those who don't know the J Estate in Ry, the list goes on and on. Fairley Dickinson. So these this particular architect and was trained
under Olmstead Senior which did Central Park. I I think we've got a diamond here that we need to be very careful with whether it's and I understand the building burnt timeline. Um I pulled it
for everyone on that list. Uh you know the park opened in 1924. Um the fieldhouse was constructed in 1934. It burnt in 19 it was expanded. It burnt 1960. Right.
um and rebuilt in 1973. So again, if we were to look at this historically, we'd say it's really not a contributing, but it is because of where it is. So, um and the oldest building is the little building on the very corner that was a
nursery school, and I'm not sure what it is today. Is it still a nursery school on the very corner? But to me to phase this out and have different architects work on this. Right. Right. Um could be
very you know lessen the value of and the importance of this particular park. I do understand the ADA ramp. I do understand today's modern. We didn't understand the tree. Uh my suggestion would be even though the rose garden is a very touchy thing, I see bikes ending
up in the first bunch of roses there with that straight angle, maybe entertaining changing the pathway if that's exactly where that pathway is going to stay. But I think you have to have a more long-term vision of
what what's going to happen here. Um so just to chime in on that. Sure. Um quite honestly that was 2021, 2022 and 2023, right? We went down that path. We went
down the path of a holistic approach to uh the area. Um we um it was not well received. Um and we were instructed by the governing body at that time to take this approach. So
that's why we're here. That's why it is what it is. Um and I think that you know has in in in my mind done a done the task. job and that that you know I wouldn't
see any reason why because as a professional service we can choose who we want to move on and do other aspects of that uh why they wouldn't be involved um uh in that to help with that cohesion
um but um but also um very good comment about yeah and so what I see happening here is my again starting with an architect that will stay with this project and also maybe working with them on the
history of what was here and the materials that were used. I know, you know, I I tend to agree that the entrance is really overdone for the style of the park. Could we get the same result if it were softened a little more
or not as big? You know what I mean? Um, but I also know that things are changing with time and we need to not stand in the past but kind of move forward. I just want to make sure that as a historic historic that we move forward
in the right direction because we don't want to lose this place in history which we do. Milbourne Taylor Park is listed as one of their projects. Um, the minute
that we change it too much, it will no longer be that. So, and I really wanted to bring up the Morristown Green again is because it was actually, you know, a road through their park in the
1600s. And then when he got involved and started planting plants and it became more of a park, it has remained the same. materials. When they update something, the materials are put back. Do we know what? There is a record of
the materials that were used in this park and then along the way it got paved and along the way it got, you know, we have plans. We have architectural plans. We have material plans. They're all in the Morristown Library. I just want to just make sure that we're we're doing
this correctly so it you know it stays as famous as it is. So, and one other thing too I think the plaques and you can take again we're just making recommendations but the plaque itself
should say something about Brinley and Hullbrook and about how this was designed and why it was designed and and I think when you have like the history of the park um this park's going to be
known more for who designed it originally and then who took over from there. So in history, we we would be more than privileged if the Historic Preservation Commission wanted to provide what information goes on that
plaque or that that So anybody else I mean again remember we're just advisory. You know they're taking into account everything that we're saying here today. But is there anything
that I have comments when everybody else when everybody else is done? I don't want to be involved. My comment is that um there's a lot of public work projects seems to be going like the courthouse and so there should be some kind of coordinated consistency between the
designers. I was sitting through the presentation for the courthouse. The front looks different from what's being projected here. I do not know the materials. So that would be helpful. It's just my thought. Some kind of
coordination between all these projects. So there is some uniformity around the things. Um but I do see the need for improvement on the tailor part. I've been through that. It's almost nobody will recognize that there is a part behind. Maybe that's what it was
intended to. um being the new part of it. I would like to see if you look at Central Park, we know it as Central Park. The entrance is grand there is inviting aspect to it and I like that about this. Right. So
it's a challenge but um definitely maybe instead of keeping a smaller gate make it like a small thing that you go inside make maybe leave it open. That's again my instead of making it smaller entrance to get
have wall so it's still grand but at least it's not with a small entrance. My main thing is it's like there's so many projects going on in fact in the main part of the town has to be
coordination and also preserving the one the second part is from what I understand there is flooding this I'm not sure if this particular area is impacted. So from a maintenance perspective, whatever we are doing, if
it gets flooded for any reason, how is this is that proper drainage? I don't see that. How is that going to be, you know, factored into this? So a few things. One, I am a landscape architect, not an architect. Don't I
don't like architects. I won't let you know. I apologize. and and and maybe like 40 years you'll be saying man that Will Sudter man he designed this who was that Mstead guy Will Sudter designed it hopes I don't know I I doubt I'll ever be as great as Mstead but I will let you know that is a strive of mine to to but
I am a landscape architect I I don't want to be known as an architect so you know that we we we did go through the history of it so in in that sense I I understand the environmental significance that's kind of why I went more landscape architecture than architecture and engineering so um to
your point. A few things, the materials, we actually looked at that and that's why um and and you had a comment as well, Allison, about the um I said stamped concrete. We are also bringing in the natural um granite pavers that are throughout the community at the
corners of Milbour Avenue and Main Street. And so that is tying into what you said of bringing in uh existing elements. And that's what we tried to do. We really walked the site. I walked the site. I walked around your town. I had dinner before here in your town. I
tried to really understand what's happening. I saw you have, you know, uh, you have a nice Millward Avenue. As you come down Milward Avenue sign there, look at the significance of that. What parts do your community represent that they find significance in and that's why
we brought in different features of this. So, I understand what you're saying of maybe it's too grand, maybe it's too elegant and it's not that natural. It's just a subtle entrance in there. But what we really tried to do as a design um firm was bring in those
aspects that have that sense of community tie in to the history of it. That's why we built some of the stonework of the Bower Community Center so that that has a tie in so that center isn't just stonework that is just part of that building that it ties into the
entrance as you walk in. Maybe the everyday person doesn't walk by and says, "Oh, that's the stone to that building." But it has that significance that through the test of time, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, it has that connection. We brought in the the the
stonework like I said that through the corners that you started to enhance that looked like you've done that what in the last five ten years probably that that's something that you can continue to build upon throughout your community that again should you do that at more than just those locations.
This area now ties into there again with the stamped concrete with the brick. It's only along the edges that ties into the brick that's throughout your community. So again, that should you never replace all the brick through there that has the connection into it.
We looked at different fencing through the history of what images showed through there of different pickup fences, different materials. This was a fence that was shown at different areas that kind of like the benches and the trash can have a close representation of
things that were there 80 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago. So these are pieces like I said that that to your point that have those connections that tie in hopefully that other places look at that when they enhance other
buildings, other areas, other phases that they have that opportunity to tie in seamlessly that we're not just bringing in something that's you know 2025 all of a sudden boom here we are you know this is modern type way. Um,
you know, this was something that we we we really investigated on. Look through the history of the images and really tried to find that connection piece through your community that would uh work well with it. Uh, I can't speak for the other places for that. I would, you
know, I would recommend that those designers as well look at the other areas and plan in advance of how those connections work. So yeah on that note I mean I would like to think more like instead of having a wheel which is always mechanical it
needs to be maintained we can have a bigger kiosk like a board that shows the historical part you give a bigger canvas for talking about instead of a small kiosk in front of the store we could do think of something like using sort of spending money on the wheel so those
wheels aren't operational just to let you know it was it was pure aesthetics of again the tiein for that and one of the things that canvas kiosk representing the history of the park, map of the park, information about the people. I understand the wheel
as an aesthetic, but a bigger canvas space informing about the history of the kiosk like a sculpture like like as a place bronze or something with the information is something you're going to have to maintain. But so I think I'm
hearing like and let me see if I can put this together. less is more. So, not making and and I don't mean this in a bad way like at Disneyland, but my whole piece is and to your point about how grand it is, that was never the entrance
to the park. The entrance to the park was actually off of Main Street, not Melbourne Avenue. And so, I know I know, but and I and now I'm going to stick up for this, Alex. I know your job isn't easy and you've been working on this
since 21 and you know I know how government works and how slow the process is and how that all happens. But the TC today, would they look at this differently and and would there be more funding to to maybe move forward on
this? I don't know. That's not my job. So I I have two things to say. is um I answered that question at the public information session that we have um because and and just to comment on the mill wheels that are part of that
entrance. Um we had a public information session uh on this project. This project was very well received in that in that session. The one comment that we did get was about the wheel. So we have that in the specifications as an alter. So it is not necessarily a aspect that would be
included. Um yes, the difficulty is is that when you start a project and then things around you change then that project has the potential to never get correct because the mindset changes on the
committee or you know the the the whatever it might be there's all these competing forces when you have to try to push you know put a project forward and it becomes difficult to All right. Well, we're going to stop now and then we're going to ask again. Do you want more? Do
you want less? Do you want this? Like, you know, we were provided a direction. We moved in that direction. This is where we're at, right? We're we're we're we're there. We're I mean, I think we're we're here to pro get get feedback. Are there things that can be adjusted and
tweaked and things like that? But not in my mind just a complete overhaul of where we're going with this. I think I would just so two things is one you know again we understand where you're going with this. I think the mill wheels in the town need to be so not on the
nose so we should tell everybody it's a little literal. It's a little literal. Um, but also this is the second committee meeting where you've come to us with a project that's done. And that's really unfortunate because we do have architects from all over the town that do come in with conceptual things
and you can talk to a lot of them and they will say they're lucky they came in here before they drew up all the plans and everything like that because they came out with a better design. So, so let me stop you there. We've just recognized and Alex and we're working
together now. That's why the two came together. Yeah. Cuz it's hard to like look at something that's totally done. It's hard to talk to somebody who's put so much effort into it and then say like you were Yeah. But but to be fair also that you know we're I mean to a degree
what we're coming to you with is not I mean we're not we're not saying this is set in stone, but we're saying like yeah it's it's it's it's baked to a point that you can provide valuable input into. And I'll give town hall as an example, right? So, we were here last
time about town hall and the envir the historic preservation commission provided a series of comments regarding the exterior of the building. All of those comments have been incorporated into the new building. So, it's not as if we came here saying, you know, we're sorry. Yeah, this is just, you know,
perform and and performance. We made those adjustments. And first of all, in public, I would like to thank Alex for now understanding how important it is because we do have people with experience and talents that could offer advice prior to the effort
going into it and we've now understood that. So from now on, this is this is also I mean for a long time this town has done projects in in these various areas that were either designated in historic element of master plan or
designated or listed in the historic element master plan and never came before this board and so the relationship that Allison and I are forming help of the we're we're on track and so it's it's this is part of that yeah no I I just I guess I more want to say like it
doesn't feel good like being on this side it doesn't feel good to tell somebody that put a lot of work into this design and you know I've heard worse just just to let you know I've I've heard a lot worse both personally and professionally. So, anything you say
I could probably It just feels like, you know, like it's like, uh, we're kind of sitting here looking at something that's very far developed that seems to not be going in the direction that I think we would like it to go. So, but again, too, right, like we are the difficult task
that we have as a as as your local government is that we are trying to please 22,000 people. That's not an easy task. And every time we come forward with there is going to be I'll be fair 10,000 different opinions right so we
are trying to come forward with the best possible uh project that probably requires some tweaking right not that it's it's it's it's written in stone but that we have the ability to adjust um slightly but otherwise we would be
designing a project for years for years in order to get to a point where at every point somebody doesn't have you know that they want to adjust. So that's I think that's part of it and and I think we'll get better at it for sure as we continue the the the enhanced
relationship. Well, first of all, I just want to thank you for agreeing to come in front of us. Um any suggestions that any of us have made? We're asking you to please re-evaluate them and just see, you know, thoughts how difficult that
would be. Um you know, and I understand pleasing a lot of people. Um, but I also do believe that if people understood the history of this park and what it represents in all the parks that in all these other places they've really gone
above and beyond, maybe there is additional funding to be had or someone could step up and say, you know, like to, you know, donate to this. Now, that's wishful thinking. I do know that. But the fact is is sometimes history
adds more value sometimes to a place that's so tranquil and has remained the same for this length of time or somewhat the same and we all agree that it needs to be updated. So I think compromises
the word this is definitely in that right direction. It's in the right direction. Right. The only thing is I I feel sorry for that kid and it'll be me. I'm not a kid. riding my bike down that ramp and in the rose bush. Can Can I add a couple Oh, he's done. I just wanted to
add some design comments or whatever. It would I think Yeah. Can I add just I because I I just wanted to can I just add some design comments and and your your design is perfectly appropriate and I'm sure you got very specific feedback.
So there's it's not a criticism like it's it's an appropriately nice design. Thank you. And so I mean, and I'm new to the HPC, but I I I am very passionate about garden design and furniture design. So, um, you know, and one of the
things going back to Allison's, you know, tie to Olmstead, and I'm not as familiar with the other two architects, but if you walk through, um, our park system that's here, and you look at some of the natural bridges, you know, within, um, uh, you know, um, the
preserve that's here, um, that was designed by Mstead, as was Central Park. And if you I I want to just reference some other parks like um if you go to Mohawk Mountainhouse in up in um upstate New York and like or go to Lake Mowaska and walk through their park system, they
have a lot of very natural, you know, very inexpensively built things like gazeos for example, just built out of simple like wood, you know, actually like hand, you know, carved kind of um things. And it's it's very natural. It's also very inexpensive. So this type of
stonework is very costly. I I know just having done a lot of my own projects and so that's where I understand completely why this budget just gets totally blown down by that and my I just wanted the suggestions that I just wanted to throw out is just consistency is important.
Being literal to history is sometimes important but sometimes you can get caught up. So I just wanted to point out just an opinion. So the Bower Center is kind of a wonky building. I wouldn't say it's a masterpiece by any means, even if it is historic. Um, and some of that stonework, if you look closely, it's
been very sloppily sort of like thrown with white plaster over it. And um, so one of the things is I just wanted to comment if you go through with the walls that you know that you don't have to be so literal like matchy matchy to it because I think something more subdued
with, you know, a grayer tone with like tighter mortar joints might look better. just I'm just throwing that out so it's more subtle because going back to those designers their aesthetic was very very elegant and natural and that's why I was pointing out the teak benches because they last for a very long time we have
them and you know these p these styles you know it feels more like a really formalized park like um Branch Brook Park in New York which was another piece I think um and I just this is just my opin these are just opinions take it or leave it I'm just but I just wanted to because I spent some time looking at it
I think the mill wheels are really great but I think again like you know some of the groups have gotten really like literal and it's like we have mill wheels flying throughout the park and you know I like the concept of you know what Venai was talking about like having like a bronze sculpture that's very
elegant maybe it's replacing that little dancing kid sculpture you know and there's a moment there with a plaque I think making it as part of an entrance that entrance is to me very claustrophobic feeling and that garden is gorgeous and going back to your comment about the secret garden I mean
It's It's gorgeous to go in there. It literally just needs to be maintained. It's it's it's an unmaintained garden. And you know, I guarantee if you just went in there and like planted grass seed, edged it, put in mulch, clean that place up, like I mean, drop 100 grand
right away, it would be amazing. Um, and I think it's unfortunate with the ADA ramp. I I still feel strongly about putting it somewhere else and keeping that central thing. There's two beautiful fur trees that look funky like they're from, you know, some far east
and place like island in Japan. I don't know what species they are, but they're quite special. I don't know if you noticed them. They flank both sides of the park. But, um, I thought that those were really, really neat. Um, but I think going back to like natural materials and I also wanted to comment
on the native plant selections going 100% native plants. There's this huge trend in our town to do that. Um, and I've I have an opinion about it because, you know, there's a thing called biodiversity, and a lot of native plants are primarily um, you know, they tend to
burn out more quickly and not flower as long. And so, I just don't want to be like caught up in having to give up design and the specialness of the beauty. Like for example, daffodils are not native plants nor, you know, and they're they're deer resistant and you know, you go to like to to not plant
that, you know, is is unfortunate or like maybe you want to blow out the rose garden, which I know he works on all the time, and you know, make another area with roses and then you can't do that by having that literal commitment. So, um I I highly suggest not going that way. Um,
you know, so that's just And then going back to the walkway and the stamped concrete, I have a really strong opinion about that because, uh, we had done these like sort of stamped faux bricks. They fade and also because it's a larger piece, they often crack through the
thing and it looks sort of like a cheap a cheapened version. This is a, you know, a very elegant town and um, you know, so and the concrete the color is concrete fades as well. And so I think there's a lot going on um with that sort of beige color concrete. And I think you
know going back to your granite tiein with concrete, maybe doing the clay, you know, and not doing asphalt. Um and also that brick work to Alison's point, I actually took a look at it because somebody was talking about it. It's not properly laid the foundation and that's
why it's falling apart all the time and constantly caving in. It's laid in sand. It's like supposed to be on like clean stone and, you know, have crushed blue stone under it and probably um there's some type of fill. I forget that it's it's um I forget the name of it off the
top of my head, but you know, I think that's important. And then I'd like to see the fence completely gone and just have a low sitting wall possibly. You could do that and call it a day and cut some expense out. Just throwing that out as an idea. But that's just my ideas.
And again, you know, we're trying to help here. Yeah. We're not I think they're all valid points and it's something that we we'll discuss when we go back. Um, you know, that's why we wanted to come here. I'm Thank you for Absolutely. I appreciate that. I I appreciate you having us and uh allowing me the opportunity to discuss and and
and answer your questions and, you know, present what our design intent was from uh our meetings and conversations with the town themselves. Thank you. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it time. Thanks, Alex. Thank you so much.
Yeah. Oh, I guess do we have anyone in the public who Yeah, I think there's I did forget to mention is there anyone who would like to speak? No. Okay. Oh, well, thank you.
Thank you so much. So, let's move on. Um, thank you for being so patient. We have application number 580 588 17 Highland Avenue. I understand that this application is to be carried to the June
5th meeting. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. June 5th. Okay. So, we will not be hearing that application. So, we're going to we're moving right along now. Okay. So, just for a point of clarification, it's being carried uh without further notice. Without further notice. Okay. Thank you very much. Um,
so we're moving to new business application number 606, 412 Wyoming Avenue, block number 206, lot number 26. It's a contributing property in the Wyoming Historic District District. I think I'm sorry. Yeah. Have you you
weren't here on behalf of this application before, were you? No, I didn't think so. Um, this is Travel Travis and Jacqueline Jaceline Sulkum, if I pronounced that okay, are the applicants. This is a
regulatory application for construction of an entire second floor edition and additional property improvements. Um, so if we can have you sworn in, both of you or whoever's speaking, is that okay? Great.
606. I'm sorry. 606. Uh, yes. Okay. Can you state your name for the record? Can you state your name for the record, please? Uh, Zachary Goldstein. Okay. And do um do you swear the testimony we provide tonight will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth? I do. Okay. And what is your um relationship to the application? Uh, I'm the architect. Okay. Um, and um, are you licensed in the state of New Jersey? Yeah. Um, I I am my license is in good standing and I'm a member in good standing of the American Institute of
Architects. Um, I've appeared before various uh, historic and zoning boards throughout New Jersey. And then will anyone else be speaking? Okay. Travis Lum. Okay. Can you spell your
last name, please? S L O C U M. Okay. Okay. And do you swear the testimony you'll provide tonight will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Okay. All right. I'll get I'll get started here. Um, good evening. My name is Travis Sloum. I'm here with my wife,
Jacqueline Sloum. Uh, we live at 412 Wyoming Avenue along with our two boys. Uh, they are age 9 and 11. Um, we have lived in the house for a little over 10 years now. Uh, we really love the house. We love the neighborhood. We love the community. Um, and it's our intention to
stay in this house for the long term. Um, we just have outgrown the house in its current configuration. Um, the house right now is just a 1950s singlestory ranch. Um, three bedrooms and one of them is pretty undersized for a uh, soon to be teenage boy. Um, we also have my
parents stay with us quite often and Jackie's parents as well from out of town. Uh, whenever they do come over and stay, they sleep on a pullout couch in the basement. So, we're just trying to improve the house to make it more livable for uh our family and our extended family as well. Um, our proposal here is just to add a partial
second story with a master suite, a guest bedroom, and an office. Um, Jackie also works from home. Right now, she's in an office in the basement. So, having an office on the second floor would just be more much more comfortable for her as well. Um, want to thank you for your consideration tonight and uh I'll let Z
let Zach give you the rest of the details about the board. Um, okay. So, just to kind of go through the property, uh, kind of from like, uh, zooming out and then zooming into the to the proposed work. Um, so the address is 412, uh, Wyoming Avenue, uh, block 206,
lot 26. Uh, we're in zoning district R5. Um, and this is application 606. Um, the property is a 21 acre uh, parcel uh, on Wyoming Avenue in the Wyoming Historic District. Um it's between Cedar Street
and Cypus Cypress Street uh in that area. Uh the existing house is um a modest uh 1,718 ft one-story colonial uh originally built in 1950. Um the Milbour Historic Preservation Ordinance of 1987
lists the property as non-desated. Um so it's a a non-desated structure in the district. Okay. Sorry about that because I'm think I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, are you sure? There's a lot of gorgeous historic homes uh near there, but this
house happens to have been from 1950 and is um uh not contributing. Okay, sorry about that. Thank you. No, no worries. Um great. Uh so just to kind of walk through the existing house, um I'm actually just going to start with the first floor.
Um, so the I think I just want to kind of talk about a few kind of key elements of the existing house that kind of served as um I guess like DNA for how we thought about the renovation. Um, so the first thing of note is just that the entrance to the house is on the side. Um, there's a kind of gable that like sticks out on the uh right side of the
house if you're facing it from the front street and um there's kind of private areas of the home uh on flanking the sides uh with bedrooms on the sides um and then the more kind of living spaces through the center of the house. Uh and so there's already this kind of organizational um party of having uh the
kind of living uh having like a space that runs through the center. Um the existing structure um is existing non-conforming uh in a variety of ways. Um I can kind of speak to um in a second. Um in terms of just like the
existing house, it's a one-story house with an attic above it. Um you can see the entrance on the side. it it doesn't have um some of the articulation that we might commonly see in a historic home. Um so it it doesn't have like a portico over the entrance. Um it has a kind of triple window that we think kind of sets
up well on the front facade and then um a gable that kind of presents itself from the uh front of the street. Um along the rear, uh there's an addition that was done previously. Uh and the entrance to the garage is kind of in the basement uh area on the back of the
house uh and concealed from view at the street. Um so just to like kind of speak to the uh zoning of the site because it is um an important kind of factor for the site. So the house is existing non-conforming in a variety of different ways. For one um it's under width width.
So um the minimum width in the district the R5 district is 75 ft where the the the lot is 60 feet. Um so that tightness uh presents challenges when it comes to sideyard setbacks um that had an influence on the design. Um the the the
lot is also under sized from a square footage perspective quite significantly uh where 14,500 ft is the minimum lot area for the uh for the district. The house uh the the lot is 9,000 ft. Um so that presents challenges when it comes to F the total area of the the house uh
as well as coverage. Um and and and those were constraints ultimately that we were trying to work within uh to avoid uh the need for a variance. Ultimately, I think what homeowners are looking for is quite modest. Uh and we we you know, it it took it took um it took work, but we were able to really
kind of thread the needle and I think a really nice way uh that that kind of conforms to the zoning um of the site even despite the challenges of the um size of the site. This is just kind of a a rendered, I guess you could say, site plan uh that
just kind of speaks to the overall layout of the site with some color to illustrate where there's grass and and paper walks. Ultimately, we're not really touching the ground in any way with the the work that's proposed. Uh all the work is is is is really um with the exception, I guess, at the front
portico, the um the work is all um on the second story. Um and um we're we're over we're kind of over on coverages, so we aren't really in a position where we're really able to kind of do much uh by way of kind of expanding the house out horizontally.
Um the first kind of architectural move um that I think we needed to to to really do to to affectuate the second story was to provide a um staircase to the second floor. Um, so the existing staircase, there's only one staircase and it leads to the basement because it's a one-story house. Uh, the existing
staircase is is in a challenging spot. It's basically in between the kitchen and the dining room and it has a way of bifurcating those two rooms that uh the homeowners wanted to adjust. Uh, in addition to that, um, it's often helpful to have a staircase stack through the house. It's a space efficient, but it
also provides a level of continuity and gives a kind of central place to kind of move up and down the house. Um, and so the f the place that we kind of wanted to locate the staircase was um close to the entrance to the to the home. It felt like an appropriate place for it uh for a colonial house. Uh, and given that there's a side entrance to the house,
the staircase, it kind of made sense sense that the staircase would be on the side. The location of the staircase has to relate up to the uh addition on the second floor. And the addition is proposed to conform to the 16 ft sideyard setback. And so ultimately the staircase is in some ways set by the
setback. um and the the location of the the um the addition above the staircase that is existing. Uh we're proposing to cover it up uh in place of a kind of new peninsula in the kitchen that creates a stronger connection between the dining room and the
kitchen. In terms of the overall like layout of the first floor though, we're really trying to keep what's there. Um I think there's economic constraints that we're trying to be mindful of. uh as well as just trying to keep the existing house in place and just add the rooms that we're looking to um add um in a
modest way. On the second floor, you can kind of see the staircase comes up from close to where the entrance is on the first floor and then there's a hallway that that kind of um bifurcates the two sides of the uh overall floor. Again, the the the structure is set back from the property line 16 ft uh and the
existing structure goes closer to the property line. So, there's a kind of setback that occurs on the second floor, which I think from a proportional perspective actually helps uh and and is looking good. Uh we have the primary suite situated towards the rear for a little privacy. And then towards the front, we have Jackie's office as well
as um uh their son's bedroom uh as well as a hall bath um in at at the back of that corridor. Um just to kind of walk through uh the way we thought about the architecture on the outside. That setback is kind of what situates uh this
gable uh on the proposed front facade and it and um we're also proposing um a portico over the entrance u which we thought is a nice way of kind of marking the entrance. It creates what we thought was like a really nice um hierarchy of gables along the front with the smallest gable being the portico above the
entrance. uh the kind of medium-sized gable above the exist that exists really um that we're kind of embellishing with some details and then the the gable above the addition which is the the largest gable and it's kind of f furthest from the ground which uh I think from a proportional perspective felt like it was working. Um we added
some some some details along uh the base of the gable uh some dentals um to give it uh a little bit uh more articulation. Um, we also extended there's uh red brick that exists kind of in this area here and we extended that over in front of this gable here. Uh, so there's kind
of a continuity of uh brick along the base of the the house. So we'll be matching the existing brick. Um, the window that exists on the ground floor here, we're proposing to basically kind of take that window and continue it up in the second floor to create a level of continuity that makes the addition feel
as though it's really kind of um, integrated with the existing house. And then the window in Jackie's bedroom, sorry, in Jackie's office, um, is kind of kind of taking uh a lesson, I guess, from the the window that's on the ground floor. So, it really we're trying to kind of take the existing DNA of the
house and kind of reproduce that as we extend uh this addition up. Um, and then we have a small uh a small window at the at the under the peak of the gable uh that is also kind of orthogonal and kind of, you know, in the same language as the existing windows on the house.
Um, and so, uh, you can kind of see that the additions, uh, steps back a little bit from the kind of front of the house. Um, and, um, I think, uh, there's a kind of general kind of nice set setting back of the addition so that it feels less imposing from the street. And so, even though it is a second floor edition,
it's not a full addition to the house such that it doubles in size. And I think there's a kind of modesty uh, to that that is working really well. I'll also note that just from a site plan perspective, uh the house that's that's uh to the right is a two-story um kind
of brick uh I guess you'd say colonial on the right and to the left is is is a one-story kind of ranch. And so I think in some ways what we're doing here is kind of helping to connect those two um and and pro provide like a nice kind of urban design kind of progression from
the smaller to the slightly larger where this is the kind of middle um and um we put together a rendering that I think you'll see in the um um sorry the packet of photos
um just to kind of illustrate how the addition kind of might look at it. So you kind of see it's uh image one is the existing um uh photo from the street and then image two is the kind of rendering above uh that just shows that
kind of articulation that we um called out in the drawings. Um and then just to walk through details uh the details in a little little bit more focus. Um um we're proposing um um Hardy Hardy board cementitious
clabard um for the um siding of the house uh for the of the addition and we would like to reclad the existing house um as well and we're thinking of a seven inch exposure uh for that clabard um and
[Music] um yeah I think Um, ultimately we're just, like I said, just trying to kind of use the DNA of the existing house, maintain a lot of what is there, and then just enhance it in a kind of thoughtful and subtle way. Wonderful. Um, we'll start out. Um, have
you had time to review Barton's comments or findings? And are we one of them was um the half brown window at the attic level to better mimic the colonial revival architecture. Yeah. Um so we
appreciated uh Barton's comments. I think in terms of the that window, um the homeowner just had a preference for uh the kind of structure of the windows on the existing house and I think just had a preference an aesthetic preference to the extent that the board is comfortable with it um for a more kind
of rectangular uh shape. Okay. Um so you're saying that you don't want to remove the square window uh on his comments. Yeah. If if if that would be okay with the board that would be the preference of the homework. Yeah. Just wanted clarification on that. And then
uh no ASAC sighting. So it's the Hardy board now that you So we're in a bit of like a unique condition there. I just wanted to talk about for a second. So the existing siding is vinyl. I think it's like a 5 in 5 inch exposure vinyl. Um we would love in a perfect word I
think we would love to do cedar on the whole house. I think there's a kind of economic uh kind of limitation. I think especially with tariffs and I think cedar often coming from Canada. uh it's just like extremely expensive. So I think to comply with the wood um it would probably end up being like a
painted pine. Um and I think just out of respect to the homeowner I think that if they could do it out of Hardy board I think for one it would be um more affordable than doing it out of cedar and then it might also last longer and I might put them in a position where it's easier to kind of do the whole um house
in that and I think there's a history of being comfortable with um a hardy board you know on non-contributing structures. Yes. Um, so that that was kind of the thought there. I just needed clarification on those pieces. Okay. So,
uh, any of the board have questions or comments on this application? It's a just a fire code thing. Uh we just need to raise the chimney to so that there's no kind of uh risk of uh kind of fire to the so we would have to extend it up basically. So code right
code. Yes. Okay. Thank you. I didn't know that actually. So thank you. Anyone else? I don't know if my comments are appropriate so you can knock it down. Um I going I mean the Hardy board makes
sense and I think it it's much better than leaving vinyl siding existing. Um so um I had a question about and I'm sure this is going to be an expense issue. Um just in terms of it being a historic neighborhood, the um wrapping
around brick, you know, even possibly veneer, like even, you know, cutting bricks in half and trying to apply it to the bottom, you know, area where it's all because it's like that white like so harsh looking, you know, um and it's
hard for the neighbors, you know, when they're going to be then looking at a larger structure um to see that sort of, you know, white harsh color on the bottom. And I just was wondering if that was an expense issue as well or um I think like um oftentimes there's a question of like kind of where to where
to terminate something, right? Um that was my question. Um so and actually to be honest, I think it's not uncommon for like a colonial structural actually to have the brick just be on the facade and not turn the corner. I for what it's worth the actual the neighbor that's the neighboring house. I actually should
have checked if it's contributing or not, but the neighboring house um does exactly that. Um, you mean stop at the Yeah, I can enter this into the record, but it's just a Google Street View. Uh,
can we mark that as Sure. Yes. Thank you. Also, while we're doing that, the first three sheets of the board, did you submit copies of that? Okay. Um, what are we calling? Uh, A1. A1. that way.
And I'm going to mark this um A2. Um okay. Um can I um Oh, I'll let you just Okay, great. Thank you. I I had a comment too about the front window um on the on the first floor. I know that's
probably an existing window that you're maybe maintaining. I don't know if we're replacing it, but um you know the proportion felt off you know it being smaller than the one above it you know in that space. I'm just looking at it
from that from a design perspective. And then I the other question I was going to ask you if you were wrapping the cor I think they're corals of the dentals you refer to around under the eaves um in the back. No I mean on the side I'm sorry on the side for the neighbor.
So like was less, you know, another detail to, you know, make it more appealing to have a large house, you know, towering next to you. Um, yeah, we weren't initially con considering. We were kind of trying to kind of um focus the energies towards the front. Um, but
it's a reasonable comment. Yeah. And then the on the um on the carport um are you guys reconstructing that in the existing format? Like I noticed that you have some lattice work detail. They look like they're leaving vinyl on to cover the side of the carport on the other
neighbor's side of the house. Uh we weren't really proposing to do kind of work to the to the carport. Okay. So I was going to just stay the same. Um before we get any further, we're going to mark the print you just received as A2. A2. Oh, thank you. Is
this for me? Okay. Sorry. So just clarification, you just gave us existing structure. You know what? uh we we uh mistakenly didn't include those three sheets in the PDF that we submitted and I just wanted to present them today and and just make sure you had them. Great. And uh can we
please get a full set of construction copy when you have you already done the construction? Uh no, we were waiting for your review and then we'll um um pending that we would then proceed with construction documents. Wonderful. Thank you. Just homework
here. Just of course cleaning up a little. Okay. Anyone else? Any comments? Um, oh, I have one more. Is Is the AC allowed to be on a platform in the back? Are you doing anything about that? Like it's attached to the
side of the house? Um, and it's existing right now. We weren't proposing to change the the AC units as as they exist because it's a it's elevated like it's it's not like on the ground, I think. Um, okay. Sorry, I don't remember. I think the code is it needs to be on the
ground. I thought that's I just wanted to ask that uh if I know that if we do any additional AC units to cover the um second story, which we probably will need to, we'll certainly be in compliant with the we'll set them up in a compliant way. Excellent. Anyone else?
Do we have anyone um for the open meeting in the audience? No neighbors, no nothing. Okay. Um So I think at this point you're looking for us to approve this isn't a conceptional right. So you're asking us
to approve it this evening. Yes. With then construction documents that we will receive. Yes. Exactly. And I think Bon mentioned that like that it would be conditioned on receiving the construction documents when they're when they're uh submitted.
Um perfect. Uh so do I hear a motion to approve with those conditions of the document construction documents? Second. Perfect. Roll please. Thank you. Allison
Canfield? Yes. Elizabeth Wanga? Yes. Christine Best, yes. Bank Chaada, yes. Robert Franle, yes. Thank you. Good luck to you. Yeah. Congratulations. It looks beautiful. It's exciting.
So exciting to do expansion. Oh, no. I I think cat. Oh, do you need another one? Which one? This one. This get that.
You might want to add that. This um this one she he didn't get this in his packet. Should have been in your packet. Did you flip all the way through your photos? Yeah, the the color one should
have been in your packet. Do you want mine? No. Okay. My apologies for on this um this is old business. This is application number 602, 141 Forest Drive, block 30004, lot number three,
non-contributing property in the Short Hills Park District by Custody Building Group LLC. Um, it's a regulatory application for construction of a rear addition and other property improvements. Um, I believe, were they
sworn in last? Did you? No, I don't think we were sworn in. Okay, perfect. So, we're gonna have you sworn in. Did we get these? Sorry. Did we get these? We got I thought we got that in the packet. It's here. I have it on the floor. I only have Bart talking about
for I have the I have drawings. I got sent. Yeah. The certificate of appropriate. It's for you have additional drawings. You can have drawings. Do you need additional drawings? Is that last? I'm not sure why these are from the last time. Who
didn't? Oh, I think this was this from the last from the last I can share with them together. Yeah, I'm like so I'd like to share with people that aren't familiar with this
particular house. Um, so Robert, I think you're I have a copy of the drawings. This is just new photos. Yeah. Van Cat, did you would you like to to see these
for this one. It's okay. Okay, perfect. Okay, that back to you. Um, so let's get you sworn in so you can proceed. How's that? Great. Okay, you can state your name for the record, please. Mark Marian. Can you spell your last name,
please? M A R I O N. M A R I O N. Okay. And do you swear or affirm that the testimony you'll provide this evening will be the truth, the whole truth, or nothing but the truth? I do. Okay. And what is your relationship to the application? I'm an architect there
architect. Okay. Architect good standing state of New Jersey. I've spoken before dozens of boards mostly in Somerset County. Okay. Okay. Great. So, we will proceed. And again, my apologies. I didn't mean
to skip you. you are under old business. Um, so please forgive me. It's okay. Thank you. Um, so we're looking to uh put a small addition to the rear of 141
Forest Drive. It's a two two and a half story colonial house. It's brick, mostly brick. There is some rough uh rough edge siding in the rear. Um, it's uh I don't know the history of the
house to be honest with you, but it's gutted completely on the inside. And uh so we're doing some internal renov renovations and we're adding about 400 square feet out the back. U pictures, show them. This is the front
of the house. Everybody's a twotory brick. It has four chimneys which are remaining. Basically, are not changing the front at all. We're keeping it as is. It does have a wood roof. Um, it's pretty old. Over the garage on this
side, there are three uh gable dormers. This is on the garage side. Also, these were submitted. You can see the double chimney with the window. It's kind of quite nice.
This is the rear of the garage. They're mimicking the the three dormers out the back. They did the kitchen here area. It's quite small and the rest of the twotory houses right on this picture. There's a
low roof that runs all the way across the back with siding above. Um the dormers and this this one section place dead and a few dormers up in the attic which is
habitable and this is the really the only change where we are changing into this rear elevation and this would be the left side elevation and it's just a big brick wall chimney and that's not changing
either so the picture's probably better than my drawings in terms of existing conditions on the first floor. I don't know if you don't have the drawings. Is that correct? Um, you guys can I can pass these around or do you want people want
to walk up and look? We got them last week. I have moved it to this month. Is that correct? So, and a lot of us, this is the third time we've seen this house. So, some of us are very familiar with the house. So, you can just walk through
with us. We're rearranging the downstairs is staying basically the same. We're putting a small addition, couple hundred square feet in the kitchen area and the breakfast area, pushing that out the back. We're also going to uh make the great room two
stories. So, we're removing actually some square footage there. And that's part of the addition on the second floor. Uh keeping basically the stairs and entry as they are. But on this level, there'll be a guest room and private
bath and also be a powder room and a dining room, kitchen, breakfast area, and a nice mud room which is which is there already. A little push out into this existing threecar garage. Pretty minor on this
floor. The second floor, uh there's three bedrooms. We're moving one of the bedrooms to make that two stories. There's two baths. We are adding a laundry upstairs. We're moving that That's part of one of the additions
upstairs. And uh and the master we are pushing out the back combining those three dormers on the rear of the garage into like a shed dorm with a very large table out the back. And but the master bedroom is we
think looks like it was there and the bathroom is roughly where you can tell from leftover plumbing. Okay. really the the main drawing be the last one shows the rear. So this element
right here, it's kind of like a double gable which is going to penetrate through that low roof that runs across and we're going to push that up going to match the brick. Uh keeping the dormers in the
attic over here is the major where we're pushing out the back to add more square footage in the master suite the bathroom. This is where the master bedroom would be and a little bit of a change right in this area to widen out the kitchen. It's quite
narrow and that is really the meat of the project is yes where we are replacing the siding. We've got some rough edge siding we can use. We are using a wood roof to match
the existing uh where we need to p patch it in and um and windows to match. They're double hunks primarily. Uh we do have some casement windows in the master bedroom that we
kind of need to use uh to get egress because they open larger, right? Uh and that's at the back of the house. That's also in the back of the house. All the windows are in fairly good condition uh on the front and the sides. So that we're basically keeping all the
existing windows that we're not touching. Wonderful. Um, you saw the recommendations of Barton's in his report. Yes. Um, I think there were a couple of things that the construction drawings
again like our last application. This application is approved as is tonight. That will be something that we would need to have. That's not a problem. Also, uh, even though we don't have jurisdiction over paint colors, I think you know to the
left of this house is a very historic home. There's some beautiful homes. Match of the color. Great. Yeah, we're going to match. Okay. Um, again, it was really important that you know that neighborhood and what it's sitting by. Not that your house isn't important. It
is. And I first want to thank you myself for you not coming in and either wanting to tear it down or build it into something that, you know, it was already quite large and quite beautiful as it is. So we so appreciate that for sure.
Um trying to modernize the inside, right? So thank you. Uh like I said, it came in front of us but before and they wanted to change it uh a lot. So thank you very much. Um
I think that's it. So now if any of my board members have any questions or comments on this application. you know, but very well done. Um, so thank you. Uh, anyone in the audience since I can't stay behind
you that little announcement. All right. Uh, so I think we're ready to vote. So, do I hear a motion to approve with the conditions and that is the construction drawings. So, it's not official until we get a copy of those. So, do I hear a
motion to approve? Motion to approve. Second, Robert. and Elizabeth second. Okay. Allison Canfield, yes. Elizabeth Wangga, yes. Christine Best, yes. Vanadeth Chocolada, yes. Robert Franco,
yes. Thank you. Great. Thank you again. Can't wait to see it all done. Congratulations. Yes. Congratulations. That looks really nice. Um just real quickly in front of you I gave a copy of just some housekeeping here of a letter
that will go out to everyone again as it did in the past. We've had a lot of turnover of new people uh new you know in homes. So again we just want to let them know that they're in a historic district. Um again when they read the
ordinances it does stand out. new roof, new sighting, you know, that does require us to do a minor work review and approve it. So, it's hard to monitor. So, I'd like your suggestion if you think there's any changes that need to be made to this
document. Um, so next month, this is a document. Yeah. Okay. So, next month I I'm hoping if you have any suggestions to write back to me and then that way we can vote on it next month to get it out. Um, but I'd like to try to get it out
every year sometime around January, February. Uh, because that's where we see the most turnover of real estate and we just don't want them to do a spring cleanup and put on a new roof and sighting and not know that they're in a historic district. Okay. Yeah, that's
hor going after everybody in town or is it just contributing? just those that are in a historic district. District. Yes. So, thank you for that. Even if the house is not historic, even if it's not designated,
it's still in the district because they can't just put any roof on like if it's non-contributing, there's still some there's still some there's a lot of leeway if they're not contributing. So, it's only the contributing houses, but because it's represented as the Wyoming
district or the Short Hills District, and again, that minor work review only takes about a week, right? So, Oh, yeah. We review it, it goes out, and it's approved um on those applications. So,
um I and I'm tired of driving through the neighborhood, not on purpose, but seeing the whole house being reconstructed knowing it's in a historic district. So, I think we should probably do this on a more regular basis. Okay.
The only thing I would like to see more of a definition is the term of contributing, non-contributing. I'm not even Oh, so a definition of that. So, so what their legal rights are. Okay. Um given that situation because this letter
blanket tells nobody can do anything in their house which is not the case. No. So well no if they're even if they're non-contributing they still have to they yes they still they still have to they still have to comply with but they don't they they think that I understand what
you're saying. They think that they're going to be restricted and have to come in front of the board and all that. Yeah. So would you look at the language and maybe we could work on that together and also define the types of properties and what what it means as a homeowner. I
will tell you though we have been limited to a one page by the town. Um so could be front and back. I got as tiny as I could the last time. So with that in mind, we're going to
suddenly put our glasses out. Readers, I think information is very important for homeowners. Me too. It's not the real estate of the page, right? It's what they're entitled to. I mean, maybe we have to bullet point it. It made it like, you know. Yeah. Like non-contributing just like have a column
like non-contributing versus contrib to the website. Yeah, we could do a link where they could go, you know, on the website and do it that way. I know that doesn't always work. I like to do it on the page. It's a little more difficult, but we've got an expert here who's gonna
help us figure out if we can. We will see what we can do in very tiny print. In very tiny print that I can't read. I would almost make it even with my glasses. But I agree it we can do this on more
than one page. So I it looks to me it looks a little bit like too much information already to be honest that yeah I agree. No do real do real estate brokers are they required by law to notify somebody like they don't
do it right if somebody's moving buying and like looking at historic property. I would like to see that being adopted. Yeah. Right now I just talked to Alex about this. We're working on getting um Barton so he could offer accreditation,
you know, the credit for the realators. You know, they have to have so many credits per year or something. Um so Alex said that we could review that to see if we can get uh Barton accredited and then he'll be invited or he'll hold
seminars for realators um you know on that piece. So on that note, cost of everything is going up. It's going to go further up. Yes, the owners of historic home are in any way associated to it. They have to spend
more than a regular homeowner. There has to be some kind of we as a historic preservation if you're going to make them go through all this. We should give them something back from the town for being a stewards and we're working on that too. That's a very very important
thing. Well, glad you mentioned this because what I'd like what we're trying to do is see uh right now Westfield and there's another town that gives tax credits. So if you if you make an improvement to your home, it's
calculated over a period of so many years. Um so maybe we can set down because I've been trying to bring this forward. Um and now maybe time to your point where we talked
about that's one way to volunteer more people to be part of that system right in you telling them hey this is started right you know now come go go go through this process right instead you're living in the zone this is the benefits you will
get agreement yeah to pick by yourself volunteer yeah so I'm going to send you Westfields anyone else who wants to be copied on this too. But Westfield and there's another town that it's been successful and I would just like to know just so I educate myself. That's all. I
don't need to be part of it. So definitely this is a lot of um you know heavy lifting on homeowners part. Yeah. You know being part of historic buildings? Yes and no. I mean depends there. We we we certainly there's new
materials that people can use versus you know real process that they have to go through. Sure. compared to a non historic district, but you also know that all your neighbors have to have their houses to that same level. So, it probably yeah, increases the value of
your but I think whether they're contributing or non-contributing if they're in the district to have some kind of if you're making a home improvement, it encourages people not to fear historic districts because it's kind of somewhat you give them incentive volunteer to do more. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Thank you. over here. So you're you and me, we're going to be advocates for this. Dave, watch out. Dave's on the TC, so we're going to be talking to him. If you like it, if you feel like the open space
tax Oh, yes, I do. Thank you. Okay, so go back to your question really um about disclosures. So sellers, homeowners, when you're selling your house, you have to disclose that you're in you're in a historic district because you know that there are these restrictions on the
property. Gotcha. Um so then people know what the realtors are required to disclose if they know about it. I'm pretty sure they're supposed to disclose it as well. Okay. um what people actually disclose. But yeah, typically buyers
know they're buying in a historic district and if they're not willing to take on the responsibility, they're not even looking. There is ordinance on non-historic district about demolishing houses. There is an ordinance about demolishing
houses that is not in historic district which just passed last year. No, that they're in a historic district, I think. So, even though they're not the master plan referring to the master, even if they're a non-contributing property, like for instance, the
property that just came in front of us like Mary would not have help. No, you could demolish houses. You sure? Yep. I'd like to figure out how to stop that, but yeah, you can right now.
So, but It is what it is. But we'll talk we'll talk more. So let's adjourn this meeting so everybody can go home. So um I move to adjourn. Do I have second? Yay. I don't have a gavl. They don't trust me
anymore with a Oh, did you did you grab the table? Great. And I didn't uh bring my know who was getting the video. Okay.