this is calling for meeting in accordance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 he advised that a notice of this meeting was made by posting on the bulton board town hall and mailing to the officially designated newspapers a list of the
meeting dates annually indicating this meeting would take place at at 7:30 p.m. on February 6 2025 take attendance uh Vates Chada Robert Frankle here David Cosgrove
Brad Jenkins here Justin Salon Jessica glot Christine best here Elizabeth Wanga here Zachary Davis here Allison Campfield here uh uh any nominations for chair I
nominate Alison Canfield second [Music] any Nam okay so Elizabeth Wanga yes uh Robert Franco yes uh Brad Jenkins yes uh Jessica sorry Christine Bess yes
Zachary Davis yes Alison Canfield yes um you do you want to swear us all in at the same time or would you like me to go ahead and list everybody or how would you like to do that I can swear you in one at a time be EAS okay first of all can I just let the audience know this is our reorganization meeting we apologize so we just have some housekeeping to
take care of first so bear with us we'll get through this quickly okay thank you so repeat after me I state your name I Alison can swear or firm that I will Faithfully impartially andj all the duties of the office I may not get all that affirm uh that I will Faithfully that I will faithfully impartially impartially and justly perform and justly perform all the duties of the office all the duties of the office of
commissioner of the Milburn historic uh preservation commission as commissioner of the Milburn historic reservation commission as uh the chairperson to the best of my ability as a chairperson to the best of my ability and that I will support the Constitution of the United States and that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and that I will
bear true faith and Allegiance to the same and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the governments established in the United States and in this state and the governments established in the United States and the state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people you may yay okay all
right so next in line go ahead you want to morning perfect so uh next in line I'd like to nominate Zach uh as Vice chair um Zach would you accept this nomination sure a second
okay yes um so Elizabeth Wanga yes Robert Franco yes Brad Jenkins yes uh Christine Bess yes Zachary Davis yes Allison Canfield yes okay we do the rest of those together they more nominations sure um I don't
know that there are do you do you show any more nominations I think everyone's terms there's just moving and oh uh we do have uh like to introduce a new appointed member Christine best so she uh is on board with us so I think she would probably this yes as well the people I'm sorry Alison just want to tell you know the people um listed to renew the Oaths are Justin Robert
Zachary uh Vates and Christine okay so Robert and Christine and Zach you guys all move out of your way sit up there first we can do so we could see yeah we can do them all at once yeah that's cool um so just repeat after me uh I State your
nameis do swear or firm do swear that I will faithfully and partially and justly perform all the duties that I will faithfully and partially Andy duties uh of the office of the commissioner of the nober historic preservation commission officer commissioner of the milb historic preservation commission
yeah uh to to the best of my ability to the best my ability and that I will support the Constitution of the United States constition of the United States and the constitution of the state of New Jersey theti of the state of New Jersey and that I will bear true faith and Allegiance I faith and allegiance to the same and to the governments government established in
the United States and in the State unit States St under the authority of the people the authority of the people thank you thank you welcome boy you got through that that's we can do anything now right um also I just first of all thank you guys very much I appreciate you signing back up with us and you know moving forward
and uh as a vice chair thank you Z for agreeing to do that I also would like uh to recognize Natalia uh as our new secretary but just for this month congratulations she's moving on to bigger and better things uh so she has been with the town she is uh secretary for the planning board historic and anything else just uh zoning planning
zoning planning so we she will TR be missed um so we just want to thank her again for all of her support and trying to get us all organized uh during this reorganization so thank you thank you um I'd also like to acknowledge that we have a new Township liaison uh Frank is no longer with us so it will be David cosgro the new elected TC um unfortunately he is on a official
Zoom call this evening so he wasn't able to join us but I look forward to uh introducing him to you at the next meeting um we are still awaiting the authorizing and awarding of the contract of uh the historic Preservation Council uh so tonight Ted mon Monahan um was replacing Janine Bower as acting Council for tonight's
meeting thank you um so we will move on to uh the meeting dates uh does everyone Natalia did we all get copies of new copies of the meeting dates I sent them out I didn't them out okay got an email okay so at this point I I hope
everyone's received a copy I actually received a copy I don't have it in front of me um for the DAT for meeting dates for 2025 uh n can you please confirm that we considered all holiday school calendars including conferences yes okay any questions or comments from the Commissioners uh do I hear a motion to adopt the 2025 meeting schedule motion to adopt do I have a
second second great Natalia y uh Elizabeth Wango yes Robert Frankl yes Brad Jenkins yes Christine Bess yes Zachary Davis yes Alison Canfield yes okay so meeting dates have been approved thank you um the meeting minutes uh we need to approve meeting minutes for November 7th 2024 meeting um
they've been distributed to the Commissioners are there any additions or corrections to those minutes hearing no changes do I hear a motion to approve motion to approve and second second so all in favor say I all those opposed minutes have been approved thank you um to my knowledge we had no
memorandums is there a clarification on that okay and the cons consent uh agenda items we did not get copy so I will have to get those from Barton at the next meeting so what we're going to do now is we're going to move on to Old business finally right okay so we have uh old business we have application number 5 74121 Highland
Avenue who requested to be carried is that correct very good we have also application number 588 17 Highland they also requested to be carried so we will not be hearing those two applications to we're sipping right through this okay we have an old application number 57722 Cypress Street block 205 L 17 this is a non-contributing property
in the Wyoming district sherlo and John W the applicants it's a regulatory application to the construction and addition over the living area side of the home as well as the addition to the rear and other outside exterior site improvements this is an amended application and new documents so welcome back um so if the address sounds familiar uh they been in front of us before is that correct thank you if we
could have the applicants in of course the professional uh be morning please everyone testify do you Solly swear fir that the information you'll provide to the committee will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I
do um for the record can we just uh can you just state your name please and if there's a problem with this phone but just confirm that it's here John Bentley Wiggins okay thank you and cherlo and Timothy CL thank you I guess I'm gonna do this yeah why not I'm sure that John will throw in and comment throw in whenever you want so
please proceed okay um came to the commission back in on 6624 and you approved U the application it's presently under construction and we want to make a couple of small modifications to the plans and they are um pretty well detailed in the cover letter that I sent on December 2nd it's probably right on the top of your packet I
think it's it's really that last paragraph where we're saying we're really modifying some existing windows and removing the existing brick off the front of the house and replacing it with Hardy plank sided and also relocating the deck and I'll just kind of walk you through um what we're I guess I'm G to block you sorry the come the
um this is our revised front elevation of the building so we've removed the brick and put on the Hardy plank the problem with the brick is that well actually do you want to tell us the problem with the brick because you really understand no yeah the brick was um it just not in good shape and so we had to remove it and uh we could put it back uh but I'm trying to insulate the house to a higher level than it was
before so it gets really tricky to do that because we're we're using as much of the house as possible brickface sits on like a narrow ledge once I start insulating behind it I don't have anything to put the brick on try to put insulation on the outside the brick shelf's only you know 4 inches wide so we don't really we're not able to really support the brick um so we're asking to remove it and um also we have moved the
deck just a little bit which is indicated on this new U landscape but I'm going to walk you through the changes previous application is what we call HPC1 through HPC 5 that still but related to it what we're doing differently is we took the
deck now on my HPC 100 which is my new sheets we took the deck and we just kind of pulled it a little bit to the right and pushed it behind the building instead of on the side of the building so the deck was previously located in this area we relocated the deck to that area all really I'm going to say not visible from
the route I me pretty far off of the r we actually moved it back I go to my 200 sheet we've modified Windows here's my street didn't modify any windows on the lower level um on the street side but we modified the windows over the sink added this
window modified the these modified these on the other side of the family room and took out a doorway that we had here on the side of the house and put it into the rear and modified those windows but these three elevations are so everyone know pretty much concealed and then the deck which was in this area has been relocated to behind
the building go my next level is like this front window from a triple window to a double window that's really the only window change we made it's kind of visible on the front and then we modified the windows on this side just
as we reworked the plan and added some windows in the rear what we did in on this floor is we took the primary bedroom which was located in the front and we put it to the re so by doing that we kind of had plan changes it went along I don't know if you had a chance to go over but this is in the middle of Being Framed I come to my 400 sheet my elevations we deleted the brick
we have gone to the double window in the center over the garage and we added that roof over the garage and um on the left side elevation s of just modified this door and modified those windows in the family not this elevation is
probably 15 15 ft forward of this new family room so this would be I hate to say the word impossible to see from the street but pretty much so I just you know I know that's like almost being the zon meeting and saying the Minimus you which is a good way to use to get Joe Steinberg really really upset would really get them going then if I
come to my right side we've modified the windows over the and modified the windows back in the family room just the ones I circled in there in the back here we added a window and added a window and we actually added that little window that is all of my revisions um I get you know we had the rendering redone so we could show to you so we had actually a triple window there that we moved to a double window and we did that because we now have a bathroom here
since it's not the primary bedroom any longer so we had to fit the bathroom in and didn't want to I didn't want to get in a situation we put a window in that we blocked over because that looked to me like the double window looked fine as well as and that is uh yes our entire application the uh as part of this
work I think that the owner is actually very accurate when he's talking about really I'm going to say sort of super insulating the house and we're g to be able to use it as like a little case study to see how well this does as a really tight house so I have another job up on haror which is a new house that was also super insulated this way and I've been charting it with my client now over the last three or four years and it's
U it's really interesting to see how the energy usage has dropped as these houses get really tight and I'm kind of looking really at you too because like in my house with absolutely no insulation in the wall and it's like so drafty and every time I get that PSG bill they tell me I'm in the upper the upper most 10% and my house sizewise is probably in the lower 30% but it's really
um just lack of in this will be actually a really nice uh study for us in the office and it's on a better scale house and the one we did on hard which was a very big home a little harder [Applause] to that is the entire application any questions or um at this point everybody had a chance to read uh Barton's report
uh I don't know can Barton speak is he yeah the impression he hears us there can you hear me yes hey um good evening uh so yeah I was listening to to Tim's um testimony and you know because this is a amended application that's coming back um it's a non-designated uh property and you know
we already approved the Hardy Board on the other three sides as part of their application last year um and they were already going to paint the brick the same color um as the Hardy Board so um I did not foresee any problems and and Tim and the owners brought this to my attention um long ago about trying to make this these alterations that they're talking about tonight so I I did not have any issues with them thank you thanks thank you um so we'll start
with questions or comments from the Commissioners do we have any I just have a quick questions because I don't have the uh the original picture where where was the brick on the front house was it we brick the entire front it was the entire I [Music] Haven I didn't get
you like it no no I just meant that um you can see the triple do you see the triple window on there that's all in the front over this area is it on that that's all I was wondering and you can
see we added the roof on over the over theage the right house um but I think I did it's got the framing up with the fencing in front of it um and it's it's the window looks bigger in the framing are they gonna pull it in yeah dra so you're gonna yeah yeah I don't know what they're doing when the framers it's like almost sometimes they plywood over the
windows and come back ESP in the winter the ply would overcut them later I just I didn't know I just thought maybe I I went to the wrong house no you probably H the right house me everything will in the end and and the when the windows come in they're the right size and then everybody's got to adjust it then everything works out is the retaining wall um structurally sound like the the old retaining wall that's there it's kind of holding the house from proper like on the left side or the right side sorry if you're looking the
house on the left side left side it seems like we haven't been worried about it does it look bad no I just was wondering you know yeah we've been so focused on the house I never even really look now they're gonna run out we'll take a look at it it could be leaning a little bit any other questions or comments
from any um impr okay uh so with no more questions or comments is there anyone in the audience uh for the about this application having none um do I hear a motion to approve this
application as they currently shown to us I think there were just a couple of qu I'm sorry let me go backwards there were a couple of questions which I would like to share with you on the report apologize I got ahead of myself here so Tim I I would like to have a copy I don't know if anyone seen it but just the recommendations of one about picking pain color even though we don't have any you know we don't have jurisdiction over
that just keeping it within you you know what surroundings you no bright yellow you know sh Tru we're planing gray a grayish blue color right now okay and there are houses next door that are similar col y yep okay and everything else is you agree to Tim and yes yes
okay so now let's take a vote uh so do I hear a motion to approve this application motion to approve do I have a second second okay Natalia uh before I take the vote I just wanted to concur with Council we definitely have enough um if we have enough voters to move to move forward with the vote uh there six yeah oh it's six okay
I know okay all right just making sure um okay so Elizabeth Wanger yes Robert Franco yes Brad Jenkins yes Justin SE oh uh Christine best yes Zachary Davis yes Alison Canfield yes congratulations very much we'll invite you all for our party that's a deal we could use one we wish you the very best thank you
okay let's move on to new business um we have tonight we have two applications we have our first application is number 594 one more place block 3102 block number one this is a contributing property in the short pills historic district Mark and Shana can you
please just pronounce otherwise I would I wanted to try Okay are the applicants this is a regulatory application for the construction of an inground swimming pool and an attached one-story Cabana with bathroom changing rooms off the rear South toide uh we can have the applicants come forward to be sworn in
sorry you whereare or affirm that the information you testify to will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth y I do okay so please proceed okay um oh wait please state your name so again for the record Mark pan here and Zachary Goldstein okay thank you um okay um by way of introduction my name is Zach Goldstein I'm a principal at John James
architecture in Maplewood New Jersey uh I received my bachelor of architecture from Syracuse University and been a licensed architect in New York since 2015 and in New Jersey uh since 2016 uh in that time I've prevented to various historic consing boards throughout New Jersey my license number is 20188 and I'm also a member in good standing of the American Institute of Architects thank you um so we're here um we received approval um for a kind of similar uh project uh in April I think
on April 4th 2024 and we're just here returning ultimately um the homeowner uh an applicant um decided that they were in in the end interested in installing Anning ground pool in the rear of the house um and we just thought it prudent uh to think holistically about that pool and how it might work with pergola and I think ultimately that led us to think that it made sense to adjust the location of the pergola the previously approved pergola um was directly up
against the rear of the house um it's kind of inset region um but with the pool we uh thought that it made sense to uh bring it out and align it with the pool and create a really kind of nice nice alignment which we think benefits the uh the historic structure um so just uh to kind of kind of walk through the overall project um the address is one Marine Place inore Hills block 3102 lot one uh this is application 594 um the property is a large 2.4 Acre
Corner Lot at the intersection of marine place and Western Drive in sh Hills uh one Marine is a colonial rev Revival style house built in 1922 and it's a designated property in the Short Hills Park historic district um the house was completely gutted and rehabilitated and added onto in 2016 um this work was approved by HPC and was completed prior to the pantier purchase of the home the house is located it's it's quite unique it's located such that the front facade and
driveway face the rear of the property uh it was obviously built a long time ago over 100 years ago uh and so as a result the rear facade of the house and the backyard face towards the street um we'll talk about it more as we go through the presentation but uh you can kind of see that the driveway comes up here away from the street and the the actual back of the house uh the way the house is designed actually faces towards this kind of Street and so that sets in motion um a few variances that will be required that we can talk more about as we kind of walk through the project um
the backyard is elevated approximately 15 feet above Western Drive and is screened with densely spaced evergreen trees along Western and Marine as a result the backyard is very private and the proposed uh pergola and small Edition will be almost completely screened from view along Western Drive in Marine place um so I brought some photos these are similar photos that we had presented um when we were last year in April um
but just but maybe prudent to just add them to the record exibit so this will
exib so I think one kind of just to have a feel for how the house is really well even though the backyard faces towards the street the trees are such that you can kind of see in image eight um it's really difficult to to even see the house from the street um so it's it's it's very kind of well privatized um and you can kind of see image nine u here is shown at the corner of marine and Western and again this is in like late spring when the the vegetation is not even at its densest and even then it's
difficult to to see uh the house or really the backyard from the street it's also shown the image time um so in terms of what we're proposing we're prop requesting permission to construct um an inground swimming pool uh in this in the rear of the house facing towards the street uh a freestanding Pergo with a stone fireplace that's shown here as well as a
pool Cabana bathroom and changing room/ laundry room that's attached to the garage here so just to kind of see like a blown up version so the previous per that had been approved was on this Terrace up here and so we're kind of taking what it was essentially really the same size and we're shifting it down here to the Align with the pool such that it actually no longer blocks views of the historic house so we're kind of pulling it off
the only piece of proposed work that actually touches the house uh is this small Edition here that includes a bathroom um for use by uh people using the pool so that they don't have to track through the house as well as a small wand room and change room over here this section right here is uh work that was built in I think 2016 and so this was previous a previously approved Edition this is the garage um and as we'll kind of walk through the elevations you'll see that the garage is it's not heavily articulated and we're doing a lot of nice um kind
architectural detail to this addition that we think add a level of refinement for that part of the house um you can see the pera here is 24 by9 which just a reasonable size to allow for a small um of bar top on this side uh as well as the kind of serving space along the perimeter um and a a stone fireplace at the rear that has a really nice alignment through to the in ground pool
um these are probably drawings that we don't necessarily need to present to Historic but uh we just kind of wanted to call out that um we're going to be putting some like infrared heaters in in the in the ceiling they're going to be integrated with some coffers uh that we think will be really nice and which we kind of did when we previously proposed the original per um as well as some operable screens along the perimeter to just help with shading and bugs when the the um Pur was in use
you can kind of see we would have some bead board as well some really nice coffers uh in the RO ceiling of the perola so even though it's ultimately in the ceiling it's still something that if you're you would inevitably be below the ceiling you kind of see as you look at the house and it'll be a really kind of refined um uh finish kind of sealing into that space so this is a view looking towards
the back of the house um and so so ultimately like we're always kind of thinking about what are the architectural elements that constitute the existing house and how can we use that same architectural language in the proposed additions so that they integrate well um and there's a kind of Harmony of uh details and so ultimately um on this side of the house you can actually see in the existing image here um that there's a kind of shed roof that runs over top of a kind of sun room and that shed uh element architectural
element is one that we're kind of pigging up on for this Edition here and so this roof would be CLA in a similar metal I think it would be copper to match this this copper roof here um and then the stone that's kind of present at the base of the house we would continue that through into the addition um so that it's connecting back and then the fenestration would be uh shingles which also matches the existing house um and uh and then we also have some
brackets at the bottom here to just add another kind of level of articulation which we think looks really nice um and then this is the kind of you cut before the pergola but if we take a step back and look where you can see the kind of pergola overlay we intentionally did a hip roof for the pergola uh and hips um for one there's a kind of hip element on this Bay but the thing about hips is that because they angle in both directions they're very like visually unobtrusive and so they were trying to
kind of minimally block views of the house uh and that was kind of the thought with with that um for the perola um we're also picking up on that kind of stone element that's at the base of the house by having kind of stone at the base of the piers the um structure of the perola the kind of posts as well as these Outriggers and and the structure in the ceiling would be um painted wood that would match um the um kind of mullions that exist between the um the windows so like this kind of
painted trimor here we kind of pick up on that same coloring uh for the kind of columns that support the per here so this is a view just of the pero looking if you're back is to the pool um and so you see there's a kind of really nice kind of stone uh chimney for the fireplace that is centered on the pool and then again this hip roof that we trying to just angles in both directions to be minimally obtrusive and then just
some nice architectural details that kind of conform to Historic um just kind of historic architectural detailing for a structure of this kind the um kind of serving space that would be part of the pera um is also clad in stone to mimic the stone at the base of the house and then in terms of uh like what this will look like we created a rendering um so we sent that rendering but we actually printed out a few of them um in case anyone wants to see them
in color exibit uh it was provided emailed this to Bart we this particular um so
I think um it was it was really helpful to to render this out ultimately there was a collage with the existing house and the proposed um addition to the house here as well as the pera I think um it's helpful because it really shows how kind of minimally invasive the work is I I I really feel the the addition over here with the bathroom and the laundry room is is enhancing this uh a recently built Edition um and I think by adding this to the house it makes for a perol that's a little lighter on the
site um so that we're not that we're kind of treading lightly on the site and also allowing for kind of Maximum views of the historic home um yeah and I guess I just want to walk through quickly the um required variances um so basically because the rear of the house faces the street that necessitates um a few different variances that are also driven by the pool um so just to
have an accessory structure what is technically the front yard uh we'll need a variance for that um because this is a pool it will require a fence and we're proposing to kind of have the fence run pretty like kind of wide around the property so that it's really not impacting the views of the house um so having a a fence in the front yard which is required to have a pool but it's not allowed by zoning technically will require another variance um and then the third variance is the pool equipment which we're planning to surround with Landscaping um that would likely be in uh the front y technically as well so we
would need a variance for that all other uh zoning uh requirements which you know there are many of them like in terms of lock coverage and bu building coverage were well under on those um so it's really it's the the need for variances is really just driven by the fact that the house which was built over 100 years ago just faced away from the street um and and so um that's kind of driving the need for those variances and
I also just wanted to just make a note about the fence um so we're proposing for the um fence to run uh basically kind of along the driveway here and then relatively close to the street and away from the hisor home um and this is again the fence that's required and um we we wanted to to kind of include a fence that we thought would kind of blend in well with the vegetation um and so um we just brought an image of uh kind of
a jarth style kind of black vertical post fence um that has a lot of spacing between it which um will allow it to um I think just blend into the the surrounding trees okay sorry a lot of a lot of no exhibits
um yeah so I think that is the presentation uh to you if any questions you just clarify where's the fence going the fence would go um across the driveway here down along the property line and then at the base there's a kind of Hill you can see these lines are representing a relatively steep slope and so we're proposing that the fence would be kind of along the base of that slope and then running along the street here along the driveway
that's mostly in your vegetation yeah there's quite a lot of vegetation in that area and the vegetation will stay or yes the intention is to keep that yeah we really want the fence to be like as minimally visible as possible certainly Barton did a report I think you did see it but Barton can you are you there see back on so I don't think every
received your report can can you just kind of go through it with us please uh sure so I I gave a um it's a voluminous report since uh this uh property has been the subject of numerous applications uh over the years um so we we know a lot of history about the property and through the applications uh you know the house has definitely evolved um and gotten you know larger
but in the right direction away from from Western and Marine um back towards where the detach garage used to be back in the corner and now um as Zach explained in his testimony that's that's the new garage so they're um Cabana and the addition will actually be attached to um a new structure a newer structure uh that um was basically telescoped off the the older house so it's you know it's the appropriate place to put it on
the site the pool uh the Cabana and the um addition and it all you know Blends in really well um I appreciate them going the extra effort to do the rendering and everything it makes a lot of sense um my only concern I guess would be the fence I don't think I realized there was a proposed fence and I didn't see anything about that in the application so um I'll leave that up to the Commissioners if they want to approve that aspect of the application but everything else uh was well
presented so thank you thank you Barton um just briefly uh can you tell the commission also a little bit of history as to why this property has facing uh interior versus out at Western just a brief right so there was actually a proposed uh railroad spur that was actually going to basically be where Western Drive is today and it was never
executed um but the bed and a lot of the um site work was prepared and so that's why Western's kind of kind of in a gully the way that it is um and so you know it was it was never accomplished and so this house um consequently now is very high up on the hill and um as the applicants explained uh none of this will be visible really from Western orar because it's it's cited well on the property so um and you know there's a
lot of mature landscaping and you know from where Western is back up the hill here um as most of you know it's it's a long distance so I I really don't see any issues with that and um I think they cited it properly on the on the property great thank you Barton so do we have any questions and comments from the Commissioners I think it looks great so that's my com
oh and also I'll just say on the fence I I have the same exact fence around my P in perfectly with okay um stunning design I wish there was it's gorgeous and just beautiful um and um I just the only question I had was I actually looked at the back of the property and like you know got a sense you know just sort of street view you
literally can't see see the house which is you know the way it sits up on the hill I wanted to understand why you chose to put the fence almost all the way up I'm assuming close to um the Belgium Block on the street like I I want to understand where you were going to be placing it like I I I took a picture you know you have the row of the fur trees and off their headlocks or but are you going to be placing it I know I'm not allowed to show are you going to be placing it like on the other side of the tall trees that are interspersed
close to like closed off the road or is it going to be in between the fur trees and the disu trees that are interspersed I was just trying to get a sense of how it was going to sit and look to you know being that it's in the front you can show us on the pr again it's yeah I know you kind of just but I I just want be really specific that's what I want to understand the thought was there were there's a row of trees that are uh planted call it they're they're right over here that's top of the hill yeah
and then at the bottom of Hill there's you know trees there as well yeah the intention was to kind of put it between them basically so that it kind of disappeared from both sides both when you're up okay okay that makes sense at the pool and at the street level this portion of the property is not um particularly usable for us anyway since it's at the bottom of that hill and yeah that's why we didn't have to stare at the fence from the pool area Both Worlds because you can't really see it much from the street and see it when is the fence height is that a six foot or you
would you you choose is it is it for the purposes of keeping GE out or just in addition to keeping children in just I know I didn't know like you know you know you're right because a child could 36 I think a pool it's minimum of 48 inches for pool so is it is it a six foot fence or a 48 inch uh we had even discussed whether it' be four feet or six feet um you know it would be a minimum of four feet yeah I don't know if that is something
that's important you well again I think this is uh zoning and it does have to meet the pool requirements um but certainly we'd like specifications and what you're going to do when your guys decide to do so um on the fence there also is a fence along this side of the property with the neighbor that is substantially similar to this so the idea was to try to again kind of replicate what already exists um so it kind of seamlessly you know Blends in I think too um there's
two things that could be wrong I think the maximum height is six feet um and then also I think I recall when I put my fence in it has to be six feet off the road or property line or something like that so I mean I think it all the requirements we comply yeah any other questions or comments I mean I was just making sure
about the the fence that as you said you'll confirm that the vitation be that's your intention so I think that's all we want to make sure so I I have two questions for you where will the gates for the fence be on the so there'll be multiple openings on each side the house or um there would be one at the end of the driveway here there's a depressed curve already so that would allow for um know Landscaping to kind of easily get in and when I guess visitors are parking there and then
um there's also uh a side door here so I I would probably put another gate there in case we want to walk in and out towards the front door or towards the driveway okay so two access points so I'm assuming that that's off the corner back or facing morine correct is where the fence will start like can you just draw that line again yeah um there we go
or point you so you can see uh the fence will come off to the back corner there like you said uh run parallel to the driveway there's a a bunch of plantings in here the intention would be to kind of try to run through the plantings as we discussed so that you can kind of um hide it from both sides both from the house View and from the street view uh so there' be a gate there and a gate there okay and the gate will be a single gate double gate this certainly would be
a single I would just want to confirm with the landscaper that a single would um satis would suffice over there if it had to be a double on this side that's what we would do just to make sure they can get their equipment through it wonderful and then the only other question I have is the roof of the peret you didn't mention the material I think we would look to mimic the roof metal standing metal roof if you mentioned it kind of went over my head so thank you again um
my comment is this is uh I agree that this is um it's a beautiful addition to this house and this house was given an award uh prior to your purchase and we uh we really appreciate what you've done here and and the care that you've taken for this house and I think it's the perfect location um and it's unfortunate that you have multiple front yards by zoning so U I'm sure that Barton and
myself were will support this application in zoning so if you need our support we will write a [Music] report um do we have any more questions is there anyone in the audience no okay so we will do I hear a motion to approve this application motion to approve do I hear a second second
natal Elizabeth wer yes Robert Frankle yes Brad Jenkins yesr yes Zachary Davis yes Alison Campfield yes ex you guys about the it's a really interesting fact I like that was it supposed to be it was from Wyoming at the and it was to run to
Philadelphia so you have to read the history I like I down the street I'll give you the history I like that please and thank you yeah it's I I was amazed too when I found out so I'm glad Western was a road that was added much later so that's why yeah it was added pray after the house oh that's interesting yeah so the
museum has lots of things on this house so I welcome you to go I'll do some homework I like that thank you perfect thank you good luck thanks thanks okay we are on our final application number 596 uh 441 Wyoming Avenue block number 303 Lot Number 8 it's a contributing property in the Wyoming historic district Foster and Deborah Wright are the applicants this is a regulatory
application for the construction of a second floor bedroom bathroom Edition as well as a new bay window in the primary bedroom suite I hope I have all that right welcome thank you um if we could have you SW in first can you st your name cor Foster Wright Wright do you song We swear affirm that the testimony you provide will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
yes um I should I gu some myori morning yes thats yes you are so you're wearing two hats tonight welcome back it's been a while thank you um so I think um Debbie and Foster would like to just uh provide a quick introduction just give a little context about their history in the town and that kind of thing great thanks yeah so we uh bought the house back in 2006 uh after
falling in with the character and the history of the house um you know for us it's very special to live in a house designed by Joy Willard da named canbury Keys uh we've lived there now for 20 years raised our two kids there and see ourselves really living uh there for another 10 to 20 years and we want to make some improvements in the house um our daughter may be moving home after college um and we just want to preserve
the archit Ural Integrity of the house um that we've loved for again almost 20 years beautiful um so actually maybe just to kind of get this out of the way we um we're just doing a little bit of research and found some great images of the house um and that were from a book where Joy Willer gal had kind of written about the house uh in very elaborate language that was pretty fun to read um at any rate we just have some photos and actually a plan of original house uh
it's just helpful to see guess while we're Hing things out this again was previously sent but this is a rendering of the um proposed structure and this was prly yeah this was already I guess technically into the
historic photos were not correct uh the historic photos were not I just found those so we Mar the historic photos [Music] as wish they had better quality cameras right yeah not a lot of megapixels
but no it was actually quite helpful to see the plan of the house because we weren't quite sure what the original plan was so very fun um okay so just to introduce the the property uh this is 441 Ying Avenue in milberg Block 303 Lot 8 and this is application 596 um the property is an existing non-conforming 50 foot wide 10,500 foot
lot on Wyoming Avenue in Milbourne uh between lyen Street and Chestnut Street with a detached garage and driveway that turned to face Lyon Street so it's primarily this lock but actually the lock continues and bends over and so there's a detached garage that faces out towards Lyon uh 44 Wyoming AKA Canterbury Keys is a key contributing elisab Elizabethan Revival style house in the Wyoming historic district um it was designed by Joy Willer da and built Circa uh
1894 the house house features brick wood Timber with stco a stone foundation flooded glass windows decorative plaster work and brackets um D was a prominent architect in New Jersey who lived from 1861 to 1937 um so the house uh which was built in 1894 he was quite young uh when it was built uh so I think it was an early kind of early work of his um and he designed several houses uh nearby in a
variety of of historic Styles actually an impressive variety of historic Styles um and uh our form our firm has been fortunate to have worked on two Joy wheeler Dow houses in the past uh ly reges at 397 Wyoming and Callaway house at 212 Sagamore Road both in milour uh the Elizabethan Revival style employed in Canterbury Keys uh adapted and combined among others Renaissance and tutor architectural elements um and from what I read in the book where those
historic images came from um which was again written by Joy Willard da in 196 um the Elizabethan Revival home was actually quite controversial locally when it was built I think likely in part to how uh different it was from the nearby homes it Blended several architectural elements to creative work that was while rooted firmly in history quite unique um especially as like kind of compared to the nearby houses
um adaptation has been noted as a key catch word when describing Dow's architecture uh Dao uh said happily in the field of art everything was planted arranged and cultivated for us ages ago so that we have only to wander as children in an enchanted garden that our days are not half long enough to Encompass so da was himself adapting the historical Styles and elements which preceded him um and this eclecticism is apparent in Canterbury Keys which makes the house well suited for for further
adaptation as we incorporate a small addition and Bay along the rear of the house um so the purpose for uh the addition is to um allow for a primary bedroom suite with an onsite bathroom uh straight forward um and I think reasonable adjustment to a historic house that was designed at the time when people lived a little bit differently um and so uh basically we're converting an existing uh living uh kind of changing
room area here to a bathroom and uh moving the closet over here and so we're basically expanding this primary bedroom suite and in doing so um we're displacing a bathroom that would otherwise be used by both of these bedrooms and so we put that bathroom uh as an onsweet kind of Jack and Jill bath between these two bedrooms and basically as we expand the bedroom we have to find some area to add that extra bathroom and these the additions we're proposing we're proposing a small addition uh in
the form of a bay along the back as well as a slightly larger addition which is also kind of structured like a bay in the back here and it's really all of that is just kind of us moving the rooms around such so we can just fit an extra bathroom effectively uh to create the reasonably uh size primary bedroom speet we're also um in terms of the work on the attic level so this is the second floor level um on the attic level
there's a really incredible space so this this area of the attic uh has a cathedral ceiling um and uh it kind of fills the space of these incredible Gables that we'll look at in a second on the outside of the house this other side is is is similar space and so we just wanted to kind of finish that so that the owners could enjoy that kind of tall uh space in the Attic
um so a defining feature of the of the existing house is this really incredible and I think unique triple Gable that runs along on the front of the house as well it runs through onto the back of the house that for us is was a really core architectural element and so everything we tried to do we tried to like tread lightly and not touch that
aspect of the house which is I think the most visually apparent thing you see when you kind of see the house on the street um all of the work we're proposing by the way is on the back of the house so the front of the house is unchanged from an aesthetic perspective we're not changing we're not adding anything to the front um and so because we just thought that this was a really key kind of architectural element at the rear of the house we wanted to kind of stay below that and so when we looked for language that we thought would be appropriate to express those additions we looked to The Bays that are on the front of the house the house actually
has like three different Bays one here which is expressed on the second floor protruding out which is part of the original changing room in the primary um a bay here which is actually under an overhang of the second floor and then there's a bay on the side of the house so like bays are kind of an important language in the house um and there's just this really incredible kind of composition that the house has where it's not this kind of taught Colonial symmetry it has a kind of a balanced asymmetry uh that is kind of integral of
the design um and so again those are kind of just architectural kind of Concepts that we were trying to use and employ for the addition along the rear and so kind of building on this Bay and this Bay we kind of looked at these two kind of I think reasonably sized editions there kind of small editions uh to kind of be structured kind of as B so because of that this one is quite literally very similar to this pay in size and shape uh and then this one here it was really important we thought to
away from the corner so that it really is kind of red more as a bay and it's not just like we're like trying to like kind of add to the house in a kind of a natural way you can see on the historic photos that the house didn't have this addition originally um so if you see the the plan of of the house kind of in the historic photos it's really just kind of it's quite small kind of simple bar this addition we think was added um which kind of comes out here on the ground
floor most of that addition was added I think in 1940 as the kind of best I can tell and if I'm being honest the the the it's a little bit of an unfortunate addition it doesn't quite work with the architecture of the original house and so we looked at these kind of bay additions is a way of kind of stepping down and connecting the um kind of historic part of the house back to this kind of lower area in a way that felt um continuous and brought some continuity
um so if you look at the kind of existing photos so this is this is a photo of the existing um kind of rear the house originally this kind of came all the way down to the ground and then this brick
kind of component here was added later um and so I think it kind of feels like two separate structures uh that don't share much architectural language and so we were thinking that by having these kind of Bays gradually step out and in kind of in varying ways on either side it would kind of bring more more logic and kind of lock in the kind of lower part of the house in a way that maybe would make feel nicer um so this is the kind of existing and then we put together rendering
showing the proposed um here and so the we're continuing the same architectural language so we're continuing the kind of metal roof that's along kind of the front of the house over over top this Bay um we're continuing the simulated Tim timbering uh we're continuing the stucco we're thinking that the coloring of those would just be to match the existing house um and then the design of the windows and and the design of the mountains is in keeping with the kind of existing kind of Windows on the house
windows that they structure to kind of match the um breakdown of the existing ones so I just wanted to touch on variances um for a second so the the lot which obviously preceded the zoning U by many years um is undersized so the is 50
ft wide uh in the R5 Zone that that's the zone that this house is in um 75 ft is required so um if you're not familiar basically when zoning is designed it's designed with a theoretical lot in mind and so when setbacks are designer also designed with that lot in mind uh so in this case the lot being 50 feet wide just means that the computed side side guard setbacks are just too large uh there's just not enough room to kind of fit a reasonable kind of house in between those uh and so that drives the
need for variance um and so we would need a side set back uh variance approvals we looked at ways of doing an addition that complied with the setbacks But ultimately we kind of thought that they didn't really uh they would have hurt the house it would have probably necessitated like extending one of these Gables and um ultimately as we sport it we thought it was going to hurt the house more than just having these elements of house PE within the setback but still kind of away from the edge of the existing house
um and I think ultimately we uh believe that the proposed editions are extremely respectful of the historic home while also improving uh on the kind of addition that is below them um and yeah we're asking for your approval based on the drawings and testimony thank you um Barton I know you're still on there any comments or yes I um I think this is also uh well
done obviously um the Dow houses are very special in the Wyoming section and um you know adding usable space to them to function in the 21st century isn't always easy and I think the way that they've tried to incorporate um extra space off the back without doing you know a true um addition that would you know a but the the building um I think works really well so I appreciate them trying to work within the context of the historic house
and still trying to manage to find some uh usable space for the homeowners so I recommend that this would be approved thank you Barton um so we'll start with questions or comments from any of the Commissioners I have a comment and a question so I think it looks great I I actually um the right Bay I completely
love the left Bay looks fine too what drove the difference between the looks of The Bays was it the windows was it how far out it went and so forth yeah um I think ultimately like we wanted to create level of balance um but the kind of space needs were not the same on both sides of the house um and I think there was a kind of asymmetry on the front of the house that we were trying to you know balance asymmetry we're trying to accommodate that on the back as well at the end of the day were just not the
same amount of space needs and it frankly was more that we didn't want to like have two kind of big additions okay and we didn't need it so we were trying to kind of pair back in a way that we thought kind of had a kind of balanced competition composition where it's kind of like there's a little bit of like a stepping where there's like small box medium box larger box uh on the back facade so that was kind of the the logic can you just explain the windows that are going in because you're replacing a few them so have an
understanding what you're using yeah um yeah so we'd be kind of replacing uh the windows uh in a way where the the kind of breakdown of Ms uh would be similar to the existing Windows um like do you have something specific Cuts uh we we didn't bring specific Cuts you want to get that clarified when you decide that okay uh just because I noticed on the back uh where the two additions are which I I know have a window you're
actually replacing in between them right that's an existing window that you're changing uh right now it's changing the pattern right I think because it's the windows are kind of um I think in need of replacement know I'm sure I mean yeah it's I'm not trying to on that I'm just trying to make sure that the parents like I think you have an opportunity to differentiate the central window between the two Edition
to make it appear as it is today and separate the addition windows make them slightly different so I think you have different uh it's four over three on your additions and I think the existing is four two if I'm looking at this correctly uh yeah that's right there's actually a mix of different um there's a four over there's a I think it's like three over three on the side okay yeah and then you're replacing minnows on the sides too so
that's I'm saying I think there's a few windows that are being replaced I just think you want to make sure we know what you're what you're doing with that so I'm sure it's all going to look you know great but no yeah no it's it's a good point ultimately we're trying to like kind of match the existing uh design of the um yeah I just think Al we want to just not the whatever it is you choose to go with for your window types trying to that otherwise I I agree with Rob I mean
I first had to look a couple times like oh it fits in really well I think it's a it's a great addition it's beautiful else said just I mean and it just adds so much to the house in the back and I love I love the windows um and it seems like to me I mean I actually like the type that the extra like four over three it seems like um I
forget what the crossbar is is a molan the one you know the check rail the check rail placement seems like it's more consistent with the front of the house where you because you had more of a cottage sty window so it seems like it's actually being more consistent with the history of the front I don't know I can't no you're right nice like this Bay kind of we're picking up on the bay on the front and that bay has quite of a dense Mountain pattern um those are casements but nonetheless it has so we're kind of
picking up on that and I think that's and that's going to be architect series or is it I mean what what what is the painting actually G to be you know you haven't decided yeah I think we should just submit them to I apologize for not bringing the specific Cuts beautiful I just had one other question on the roof uh material of the Edition it's uh standing see metal right yeah so is that on the on the structure right now do you have this metal roofs uh yes
I believe so there's a metal roof I believe on top of this structure here that's on the front yeah oh that's and that's GNA be painted to match for I think it would be like painted metal uh singy metal I think that's frankly what this is It's I it's painted it's painted metal yeah I mean I I agree with everybody I think the addition on the right it's very well done I think the
left Edition to me I do think the window pattern and even just the proportions of the window aren't exactly going with the rest of the house most most of the other windows are much Slimmer than what's proposed for these three Windows um so I think that threw me off when I was looking at it I think I think these three windows on the back should be looked at towards the left side and look at the proportionality with the
rest windows on the house you know we were I think that's I totally understand where you're coming from the way that we were initially thinking about it was we kind of wanted this to be a little bit secondary and kind of blend in a little bit more uh and not stand out as much as the G the triple Gable on the top and I think the thing that was kind of maybe driving the proportions of the windows initially was just the existing windows that are there and that was kind of where we got the overall kind of size of the opening um but I think certainly funny thing is is the size of the window
actually made them pop out more and then I had another question so what since this isn't really like it's not really a dmer so is it a flat roof then it's like sloped and then flat here yeah uh there would be both be like hips but what's the there has to be a flat portion to it right too no it doesn't go out that far so um it just slow back and we're trying to keep it shallow so that we don't interrupt the windows that are at the top of the roof
um yeah that was the main the main thing is that those windows I think just look that like it would be yeah the roof is quite quite shallow so be really difficult to see the rendering isn't okay wouldn't see we're pretty far back in the rendering I think and for what it's wor this is actually a flat roof so there's not a lot of okay
so can you just give me clarification now that I'm looking at the windows um what was there before that and you say that they're more in keeping sizewise they're in keeping with these windows okay which there's like most of the windows along this kind of zone or that size so we were thinking like these three Windows here are kind of similar these three Windows here okay
and then this Bay has more of a vertical expression which again ties back to the front of the house that we were kind of taking inspiration from yeah so I think what I'm hearing from everyone and correct me if I'm wrong is the moons would that change the you know whatever they choose would you like them to be consistent maybe not size but maybe you know whatever the there's too many different types of windows no I just thought they were
proportion wise like if you look at the original house like the windows are very vertical they're not as historic yeah just in general if you look around the house most of the windows are very ver they're more they're narrow right you look at what was on the house so so I just found out that there were two alterations in 1936 and 1944 so maybe there was something added
during one of those periods of time because as right now it looks like the picture below and he's saying those windows are the exact same as the three that are on the I mean I'm just I was just looking overall at the feel for the overall house seems like the windows were very gonna add to your thing I think maybe because the molding around the molding detail around the windows just looks like it's a little lider it might be pumping that up visually what you're saying Elizabeth I
just was thinking about what you were saying yeah because it looks like a square three of the four windows in the back are not the original Windows right right but they sizewise they're the same as what was there where whenever those were added yeah like when we looked at the original when we looked at the house like as we began work like that was those are the windows we saw so we were kind of that's what we were kind of working with was the existing house yeah
so that could have been something that was an alteration to the house in 1930s okay so again clarification are we wanting them to do the same the moons like however many you know for these windows or because I'm a little confused as to what we're asking well if the if that Central window is replacement then it can be replaced that's fine and I think it's probably better than to have the same TI across the back because now
I have a little bit of a m mismatch um I just think we want to know what is you're propos to do so that will be you know stipulation that we will you will be sending us uh specs on the Windows um that won't keep us from voting tonight but that would be one of the requirements so um so you do have to go in front of zoning uh and it might be helped for the variant correct might be helpful knowing the of what was the original lot size of the
property prior you know what I mean before subdivided yeah do you know that at all or I don't but we can research it okay because that might be very helpful and certainly if you need our support again the it's not uncommon for these big properties to have been subdivided and now you have a lot of restraints to bring the house up to date and for living today so uh just let us know how we can help you there okay I appreciate
that um so I think there's clarification on then the windows uh so we do need specs is there anything else no so um no one in the audience who I just I just have a question just so I asking about the windows are you saying um the on this side they shouldn't like these
ones are only three panes wide each and this one's four panes wide that's what is that what you don't you want them all to be this well again I think the clarification well it's just that there was the differences and we also didn't have the specifications of what window types you're using so and I think there's a on the plans there's a lot of ends for new windows so when you see that on building like this just want to make sure we know exactly what's going in I think we can submit clarification that just shows every single new window
we can give exact specs manufacturer just detailed uh dimensions that's helpful okay great that would be very helpful um so it sounds like we are ready to take a vote uh do I hear a motion to approve this application with the understanding that we will be receiving specs for the windows motion the second second Elizabeth Langer yes Rob Frankle
yes Brad Jenkins yes Christine Bess yes Zachary Davis yes Alison Canfield yes thank you appreciate your consideration start the show it was fun to research it's I mean it's it really is an interesting there's so many interesting houses in in and around
beauti he passed he passed away his son the two sons are living there ready to well we just really appreciate you guys taking the care of this house and this is exactly you know not overdoing it but for your needs and bringing it up to date we really do appreciate it oh
thank you it's a special house we loved it know we're lucky to be in it well thank you than you very much all right thank you okay so uh left on our agenda tonight we wanted to talk about hard copies for the applications but that's already been resolved um no open meeting to the oh well I don't see anybody we're still live streaming Okay so is there anyone open
here for a public meeting having none so we'll the discussion items so uh Natalia you had mentioned that uh there was some confusion and that's why we didn't receive hard copies and thank you very much for having them for us so uh we will be receiving them in the future yes so I have a copy of um the roster which I believe I sent out also so I just want everyone who's here just to confirm that all the information on there is correct so that moving forward for packets will
be sent out to those addresses prior to perfect thank you so much um also uh we are going to do some recruiting for the minor work Review Committee again um Justin was on the committee uh but now that he's uh you know in school uh we need some more support um I did ask Christine best if I thought it was the best way to learn very quickly you know yes so and she agreed so I'd like to add
uh Christine to that Min work review uh so we will make that official um from going forward so if you can just note that that she'll receive those um consent agenda projects anybody have any thing that they'd like to discuss any discussion items about the meeting dates again yeah
yeah okay uh this concludes our meeting for this evening I want to move to a Jour do I have second second uh she has the gavel so meeting a j thank you so much thanks bar