##VIDEO ID:RpFSriN3gM8## am [Music] open many people meeting I went to was just me hello good how are you either way he fine with me to thank you follow someone will be swearing at me soon yeah dident but no one ever I used to have fight than thank you thank out morning kind of do where we yeah my brother's no better my mom was no nothing about resp no no I'm just leave set I mean this is well the Stonefield response rep yeah yeah I didn't bring [Music] to was ch yes in accordance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 we advised that a notice at this meeting was made by posting on the bulletin board town hall and mailing to the officially designated newspapers a list of the meeting dates annually indicating that this meeting would take place at the Town Hall at 7:30 pm on Wednesday November 6 roll call please Cory biller here Ellison Campfield here Michael Cohen here deor NIS here FR seami here s sh VJ David cro here Michael Zion G here and here thank you first order of business is the approval of minutes from September 4th 2024 Madam chair if I made that uh those that resolution is currently circulating among our board professionals and uh applicants we on the minut my apologies we're on the minutes I got ahead of myself again that's okay yep so we'll finish on the minutes first and then allow you yeah okay so on the minutes from 94 um did anybody have any Corrections or edits to those minutes I I had a possible edit on line 156 it says something about the house being in extreme Despair and I thought maybe it was supposed to be distri thank you I think we will make that change okay the emotional well-being of the home is probably speculative on our part dis repair seems more afo thank you uh on line 156 with that change um do we have a motion to approve motion to approve second thank sh seconded all in favor I any oppose and those who are not present would abstain from the vote meeting minutes of 94 with the correction uh are approved now our second order of business was the memorialization on application 24002 I Turn to You Council I'll up I'll uh sound a little bit similar to the way I did about a minute ago th this particular resolution is circulating among the board professionals uh and we'll then go to applicants Council we anticipate it it'll be ready for adoption at the next meeting which I understand is next week um and we may also uh by that point have for adoption the con Pediatrics resolution which is Al also currently circulating amongst our board professionals and to go to applicant team as well so that is our goal for next week to have two to make up for the one we don't have great thank you for that clarification so we'll not that the memorialization uh will be um carried until completed okay thank you moving into our next uh and only application for the evening this is application 24003 the matter that was previously carried from September the 18th um this is for preliminary final site plan approv approval uh the high Center for living Judaism and applicants attorney there you are good evening good evening um I invite you to welcome us back and as needed I may give I may or Council may give just an overview of the the process for allowing for having um application witness testimony and opportunities for public uh engagement last yes and let's turn your mic on just to make sure we have that un so you're qualified having having watched the video from the last meeting and so we'll be continuing I don't anticipate will complete this hearing this evening so so long as you you were certified and qualified uh by the time you voted you'd be fine um so we should have a certification and I can sign it at the appropriate time to memorialize but we are putting on the record continue to hear the application evening just one moment I think there's just a clarification on whether we have the both sides of something that is being distributed I think we have only odd Pages or something like that okay we'll get that doublesided copier issue thank you uh and with that um we can open where we left off and again when it gets to uh before we're moving into hearing any Witnesses I I'm happy to um just provide a little bit of the process or have councel uh give the overview thank you very much uh Madam chairman members of the board good evening my name is Michael LaVine attorney with Fox Rothchild here this evening on behalf of the applicant High Center for living Judaism Inc um subject of the application 165 old Short Hills Road Block 2306 lot 11 in the Township's R3 residential Zone it's a 3.32 acre property um the applicant is seeking uh conditional use approval and preliminary and final site plan approval in order to construct a house of worship uh on the subject property um we've had one hearing on this matter was on September 18th um at that time we had extensive testimony from our uh civil engineer who went through the site plan plans that we had uh had submitted um as answered a series of questions from the board members uh and also a series of questions from members of the public uh at that time we did not yet have um the benefit of a independent uh engineering uh review Memo from the board's uh Consulting um civil engineer uh in the interim we received that report um and so I think the first item of business would be to call back our our civil engineer remind him that he remains under oath um and then uh have him go through the issues and comments and questions that were raised in the board Engineers uh review memo I know that she's here with us this evening ask follow-up questions and see clarifications um as a result uh not only of um board Engineers uh input and questions but also um recommendations and input that we had received from the board's independent traffic consultant um John's also prepared to share with you some exhibits that show some tweaks to the plans that we've made in response to those questions um so uh I think it would make sense to uh call John back to tie up the Loose Ends that remain with regard to his civil engineering test and if I if I may Madam Chair by TW to the plans you mean these civil engineering plans the site plans correct correct correct sir he remains underrot and I take it his license remains a good standing so I take Bo we continue to accept them as an expert in the field of civil engineering we will do so so um just to sort of echo back what what um the applicants Council just mentioned at the first meeting that we had uh in September of 2024 um we did hear extensive testimony the board had opportunities to ask questions the public had opportunity to ask questions and make comments at that time um but because we didn't have the benefit of our board Engineers comments um we'll be speaking to those tonight so we're having you come back back and ret testify to additional items following your uh testimony the board will ask any remaining follow-up questions per what you spoke about um at that point the public will have the opportunity to ask questions of the witness on the things about which he is testifying tonight um if it's things that had previously been testified to and then already responded to we're asking for the sense of time and because the session has already closed to only be asking questions um pertaining to what his testimon is about and as mentioned we will also be I think moving into the traffic Transportation traffic issues as well cor yes we're prepared to do that if we similarly get through that testimony we'll do board questions and public questions regarding traffic tonight very good and just before we get started uh I know that uh and we we appreciate it very much you know the board took some efforts to facilitate the presentation both for the board's benefit and also the members of the public I know that there is a smart board yes uh and we have uh you know we'll be able to tie in and show and share its zibits electronically we also have a hard copy as well to the extent that that's helpful uh if we maybe position the tripod in the appropriate Place uh wh you think it's most beneficial we'll do that and the last thing was um we had a long dance uh with the microphone back and for have extra microphones were provided have a second microphone I think she said there were two microphones avilable many many okay I I don't um and you don't know I don't we additional microphones are you got one [Music] it's let's attempt to turn it on thank you Alison I hear that yeah [Music] John yeah so the tripod's over there is that a good place for the hard cop I think that's fine and hopefully we can see that and um maybe if I could request that you angle that a little bit towards the board and that if we need more towards the the audience just so that folks can see that Bigg and um it did also inquire um it can't be shown on the zoom because it's um it's just a it's a YouTube it's not a zoom so um if folks are watching it streamed they can only just the room but also all the exhibits um you will announce the the name and number and all of these exhibits are available on our website so people can pull up and and and look at their doe uh I would can we have that one pleas sure um yeah I want the public to be able to see one and un us to be able to see one collectively is that the best we can do you think are you gonna be able to see that I guess unless it's in the lower right corner okay thank you okay um so John again I'll just uh could you just uh repoint the board just your name and your professional affiliation who you're with in your ring application please yes good evening uh John fanti um with E2 project management at AR Rockway New Jersey and uh civil Bachelor science Master science civil engineering professional engineer been qualified many boards throughout the state of you were accepted by this board and your license remains a good standing correct yes and I think the chair will continue to accept you we will thank you thank you so John um have you had a chance to review the um engineering review memo that was uh prepared by Martha Callahan the board's engineer dated October 9th 2024 I did and if you could please I'd like you to do two things if you could just go through uh her report it begins on page two with her site plan comments and just provide uh the applicants uh responses to those uh in some instances it's just kind of a statement of back we can just kind of confirm or reiterate and to the extent that it requires a response from you if you could provide it and also I think you have a total of what four additional uh exhibits yes we prepared four exhibits tonight and it's a a the compend compendium of all the comments that we received from the board the board's professionals and also the public so we took the liberty of sort of uh grouping all those comments and creating the four uh exhibits which we'll present tonight and we we try to address a lot of those concerns with the uh our proposed revisions to the plans which I will uh introduce as well thank you and have we received these exhibits no these are uh these are exhibits that we brought with us this evening so we'll mark them for identification we'll leave them on file thank you and you'll also share them electronically so we can upload yeah let me make a note so I don't forget that yes I take we're starting with the memo correct cancel yes if it's your practice to to identify the board's uh memos as as separately as exhibits no not as an exhibit he's gonna be addressing it the substance yes that's that's absolutely right all right John you can proceed with that thank you with the board's permission uh we're sort of conceding a lot of the comments we have no issues with and we'll address so do you want be to go through all the comments or just the ones that require t through if you could go you know not to belabor any especially ones that we agree with and we'll comply with if you could just take through all of them okay well I'll do that uh as quickly as as I can uh initially uh uh Miss Callahan provided comments to the site plan so the comments uh number comment number one uh which was I think discussed the last time a lot of the the professional even the planner noted that the intersection of uh part parsonage Hill Road and Old sh Hills Road the uh the road has uh encroached on our property and uh the comet basically wants us to address that uh and we uh have no no issue with Road opening permits from the county and the over DPW will be obtained correct correct if there's thank and uh item number two uh she correctly uh make a note that we will require a solar rosion set control permit and we're okay with that it was stipulated yes that will be submitting for that permit uh the uh the comment number three she uh uh agrees with our calculation of the sanitary flow for the site however she would like us to study the existing flow where of the the sanitary main that we're tying into on the oer Hills Road and agreeing that will provide that study to confirm that that that sewer main has enough capacity for our site two number three stipulated yes and is that kind of standard operating procedure for an approval for an project once it gets approved um just to confirm the underlying assumption that the existing conveyance system has capacity to accept the flow absolutely uh the uh item uh comment number four the lowest level of the building will house classroom for daycare and preschool and the applicant should provide testimony regarding whether the outdoor play area is contemplated we spoke to the applicant and the applicant's architect and they agree that the uh the the school will need a u a a a a playground and I'll point out to on the drawing where we've chosen to provide that uh playground area make sense coun to do that now want to do it now I think it does make sense unless for some reason that's cumbersome no no not at all actually yeah so before we get started um I just want to confirm the the electronic copy of your exibit that you have on the Smart Board is that the same as the hard copy we have over here yes and it's dated uh November 5th 2024 and is the uh is it in the legend is it P exhibit c-1 correct and say today dated November 11th I'm sorry November 5th yes um i' like could just mark this for identification I think we're only up at applicants A1 are we not Mr one I think everything else was previously submitted site plan so I don't see any other exhibits so I'll just Mark out for identification as A1 today's and again that's did you say c100 C1 C11 okay and it's the just give us a title of it what is site grading utility and manitary plan is it is it different than what was submitted with the application material it yes okay if you sort of the board would like to give you a quick overview of the exhibit or just answer the the one comment and move on up to the app you give just a quick a quick a very quick uh brief overview of what you're showing there and then specifically answer the question correct so the what you have in front of you that is the site plan that was presented last last Hearing in September and we made a few changes to address the comments that we received a lot of the comments were from as I said from the board's professionals the traffic consultant the engineer the planner the board itself and the public and uh the comments really focused on us several areas and I'll just summarize them so that everyone is is refreshed the sidewalk on Old Shore Hills Road the Highway off of parsonage Hill Road uh the the playground which is uh we're just discussing uh there were comments regarding uh fire truck and waste truck access to the site side triangles uh from the driveways and uh landscape there were questions on Landscaping uh and uh and the one of the one of the board professional asked whether there's sufficient access to M to provide maintenance and uh to the basins and the waste storage area there were comons in the waste storage area so what we've done we modify the I'm sorry I apologize so you've kind of given us the brief thumbnail the various things that have been addressed in exhibit C1 so let's go back to uh the review memo then and pick up where we left off which was item four and the specific question about item number four was the question regarding U the the original site plan we presented did not have a playground shown we are currently showing a play playground and it's located on the south side of the upper parking lot uh again uh more for uh to remind the board uh the the the uh the facility it's has primarily two levels the upper level is more for the uh uh worship uh access to the to the to the main level of the of of the facility and the lower level which is served by the lower lot has the school and that will require the uh the play area so the play area is located on South side of the upper parking lot that will that will be accessed uh through the to the driveway now ideally just to pinpoint it a little bit more precisely when you say is it more is it Southeast Southwest correct it's directly south of the upper parking lot located in this uh lower uh left hand corner of the property and I know that your plans show a couple of things they show a required 25 foot buffer to residential is that located outside of that buffer yes and there's also a more stringent requirement of I believe it's a 40 yard uh setback does it meet that requirement it does I think you'd also your plan show and you had testified uh last time that there is an existing um drainage feature there and an Associated riparian buffer correct um is the buffer shown on the plan and is that play area outside of that buffer yes we've located it so we don't uh infringe on any of those buffers that you mentioned and so the the location and the shape we we it's not obviously a rectangle we try to uh having all those limitations of setbacks and so forth uh this became sort of a logical place for the for the playground what are what are the dimenions it's uh 900 square ft uh roughly odd shape but said call it nominal 30 by3 and is it enclosed in anywhere no it's uh enclosed by a small 4 foot high uh aluminum ornamental fence to protect the children uh as well as uh a curb on the uh on the driveway side and and the the landscape drawing will show that we provided additional buffering around the the playground and you go through that on landscape plan yes okay um why don't you move on then to item number [Music] five yeah item number five uh it points out that there's a well an existing well on the property and it's located centrally on the upper parking lot and I'll point to it on the South Side roughly in this Loc and uh the comment was that for that well is no longer needed it has to be closed properly for the DP regulations uh we spoke to our uh applicant and he would like to maintain that well and use it for irrigation of the extensive landscaping that's uh that we have on the property so if if if we end up doing that then we'll certainly do that and get any any permits or approvals that might be required in connection with that if he decides that that's not workable or not part of of the plan then yes we would decommission it uh in accordance with d requirements if if ultimately they decide not to use it we have that stipulation yes thank and there was kind of a two-part a two-part suggestion there when we do agree to the uh to the tank sweep uh to confirm no underground storage tanks and to the extent once found uh to decommission that that as well in accordance with the applicable regulations correct got it item uh item number six uh it it's primarily a statement uh the board engineer reviews the that environmental impact statement was prepared there are not Wetlands R rare species of what Wildlife historical trees T I need TR in danger species on the site and the open stream on the southw corner of the site as Associated rep repairing buffer however we are not encroaching on the repairing buffer number seven the encroachment of par par Road curb and pavement to the northeast corner of the property should be legally addressed and we had talked about that at the last hearing we said yes we will provide the easement and uh get that sorted out with the county if I may par Hill local count County County not state county the uh you do you know yet whether the county would prefer or dedication that's still to be determined uh that's to be determined okay but Del whatever is required by the yes okay thank you the item number eight the proposed construction activities require installation of temporary channeling fence at the perimeter of the at the per at the side perimeter this does not alleviate the requirements S Fencing we are providing self fencing as required by a Sol erosion set control we are uh we we will require a permit so we have provided that and and it's shown on our Sol erosion plan as well as the temporary chain link fcing will be provided the chainlink fence uh there is a fence that's existing around the property uh a chain Ling fence per se during construction we believe it's not required uh with the soil erosion sediment control fencing H and any additional snow fencing that the contractor may choose uh that should be sufficient I we don't believe that a construction fence is required but we'll be glad to provide if the board so required the ordinance is to ordinance requires a chain Lane F around major development just temporary during construction activity okay I apologize we stipulate that we would yeah we would we comply with that ordinance requir yes the item number nine the contractor show maintain Good Housekeeping measures at the time during the construction phase uh bearing in mind that the site is located in a residential neighborhood tracking pads shall be constructed at all ESS locations to prevent mud and so forth and uh filter back shall be installed and drainage in left and the answer is absolutely uh we'll uh address that we we showed tracking pads at two in other words our our proposed site plans has two driveways one off of parsonage and one off of Old sher's Road and both those driveways will have uh stabilized construction uh gravels dur uh as required by sod erosion and sediment control so is a new subject matter heading here on page three traffic and circulation correct correct so bearing in mind that there ALS there will also be kind of supplemental detailed traffic uh testimony uh perhaps you could just kind of uh touch on um yes you know from the engineering staff aspect what you've done uh to address some of these comments and and highlight them in the exhibits to the correct um the the first comment is is the proximity and uh of the in Ingress driveway at Parson Hill Road uh at the at the intersection uh the concern was if the board will recall that in the prior site plan application the main the main driveway was located roughly in this location and it kind came in and tied into in that fashion that jet driveway that driveway was 160 ft from the center line of the property to the driveway as as you can see what we've done we studied the an alternative driveway into the site and we pushed that the driveway based on this exhibit uh a total of 270 feet from the from the property line intersection and uh I think that goes a long way to alleviate the concerns of both the the board engineer and the traffic consultant had the same concerns and uh we would propose to make that change and that change basically uh does not does not impact on our uh parking count so we were able to provide that that driveway and and still meet all the requirements of parking setbacks and so forth and imperious coverage and that's consistent because I was Miss Callahan's specific recommend or at least question inquiry was was a driveway location further to the West along pars H Frontage considered is that that's what was implemented yes um I think the next one too questions about turning radi and wheel path so the Turning R obviously the the the Turning radiuses of of the presume truck uh in this case the the theck that governs the design is a fire truck which we had provided at the last hearing we had a turning radius on our drawing and uh We've uh and both uh We've uh well while Mr R is actually adjusting I actually wanted to just mention the context of the traffic report for the benefit of sure my pleasure Madam chair the members of the public you may have heard but just to emphasize uh this gentleman is a civil engineer he's talking about some traffic issues and circulation issues from our board civil engineers memo um however the applicant also has told us that they will have a traffic engineer to get into more detail with respect to traffic study parking Etc so I want everybody to understand the context I also want everybody to know if you don't already uh that the board with the uh the consent of the applicant uh uh retained an independent traffic engineer for the board's benefit uh Mr Fishinger Who was appointed by the board uh authorized to serve uh in that independent role for the board he's here this evening SE seated right front center there uh and uh it's my understanding that we there'll be not only the traffic study that was submitted by the traffic engineer for the applicant but also Mr Fishinger uh has recently submitted a report which will be available to everyone as well as there's a response forthcoming or coming this evening uh from the traffic engineer to Mr Fishinger report so there will be in-depth address uh addressing of the traffic in uh site circulation and Beyond parking uh but this is just from the Civil Engineering perspective for Conta thank you madam chair thank you thank you very much Mr War Warner um yeah I so you show and just so on applicants A1 is exhibit where you show the relocated driveway correct correct described um all right turning to item two then uh and questions about the the wheel path now you mentioned the um uh turning radius for a a fire truck did you reach out to the Milburn fire department and get information from them as to the specific dimensions and size of that the fire apparatus that they use here in town yes correct also if I may I forgot we I we have copies of all the exhibits that I can distribute to the board if that's what that might be really helpful to these folks if you have yes that be able to get obviously you have a better and these are A1 and all four all four exhibits are being passed out so they're all stapled together in a set um the one on the top is Ben Mark as applicants A1 it's the one that's exhibit C1 with dated uh November 5th and as we get to the other three we'll have I think I have 12 if I'm not mistaken and maybe with that being the case maybe it makes sense to reorient this more this way great absolutely yes we all have one in front of us thank you and perhaps Madam chair with your permission some board members could share so our board professionals can get a couple they follow along as well so do we where board can keep the copies I have one one extra one not yet we have not yet I have extra ones if you don't have one mine is Mark up okay all right so sorry for the interruption all right so we're now we're looking at um various size uh trucks uh and their ability to access the uh site and make um safe and efficient turning mov correct so correct you could show how that's depicted on your exhibits John that'd be great if I'll U have to advance the drawings to the uh to the next exhibit be REM me second while while I'm here C2 is our Landscaping drawing but uh I I'll have to advance one more to the uh to the the traffic turn and C3 uh provides the microphone pleas sorry uh C3 provides the turning radius for the the study trucks is the mil bur at exibit C3 dated November 5th 2024 it's called traffic in vehicle circulation plan Mark that for identifications applicant A2 um we mark it A3 he already mentioned the landscape plan is A2 yeah that makes good sense I think we eliminate confusion we don't want to cross our A's and our C's so that has been marked as A3 so John you're referring now to A3 could you highlight those uh so A3 is the base of the drawing is the site plan that's similar to C1 with the new driveway shown and we superimpose the turning radius is that a fire truck entering the site uh off of a Parson road coming into the site then turning down the driveway going down to the lower parking lot then exiting on Old sh Hills Road WEA uh we also looked at the where uh the the firehouses that serve Milbourne are located it appeared to us from the uh from the research that your your main Firehouse is uh obviously near the uh near the town hall here on SXP so the the shortest uh path for the fire department to respond would be from that Firehouse so we would uh surmise that they would travel oer Hill's Road make a left onto uh parsonage Hill and the left onto the site a waste truck uh since it's private caring could come from both directions and you can see the waste truck that we've modeled uh also uh while while I'm on this drawing there were comments regarding the placement of the waste storage unit storage area and we've uh We've rotated it 90 degrees and sort of in the same location so that the waste truck and we've uh also uh that was discussed at the last hearing we had this the driveway coming down to the lower lot as a 12T wide uh uh driveway with a with a a non-paved shoulder to provide additional uh turning radius for the trucks and the board at the last hearing uh and they had requested that that needed to be paved as well and we've done that so that now a waste truck can come down access the waste area uh either as a front load then obvious back up and then exit the site there was also while I'm undestroyed comments that uh we had received uh by the the board professionals and the and the also the traffic uh consultant for the board that the uh we had proposed a a one-way uh connection from the this uh look from the driveway parking uh closer to the uh to the uh to the building uh so that we would not have a dead a dead end parking uh that so that car coming there making that right in turn would have would have been would have been able to make it but what we've done created it made it a two-way so widen that whole uh turning so that the cars will have an easy time to make that turn so we made that Improvement so that we wanted to propose so do you have a passenger vehicle template on there yes we have the typical C that's uh you can see there the the waist truck sizes as well as the fire truck and we have the fire truck specs that we rece from the township there was also a comment from I think from the fire department to make sure that any of the Outriggers that dist truck has has sufficient to be able to deploy the Outriggers and the Outriggers are shown even though you can't read it to be 16 to 18 feet uh total uh total width and uh all our driveways will provide that with so that they can deploy the Outriggers and uh uh without uh having any impact from the any parked cars there so so this exhibit basically addresses the the uh entering and exiting of a fire truck this the largest fire truck that Milburn has waste trucks and uh and and car and cars you can see that they also uh asked that we would look at uh delivery trucks uh and school buses uh this school that we're proposing will have not have any school buses all the students will be uh driven uh by by their parents to the site uh so school buses is not contemplated as far as delivery trucks as far as it's a it's a relatively small school so we inter anticipate the mail truck an Amazon delivery truck which are much smaller than the let's say the waste truck and the fire truck so those trucks we did not show them because by by INSP ction we we deduce that those trucks uh delivery trucks can can enter the site relatively easy um all right that was a uh that was a mouthful about uh about Turing radius um item three uh the existing sidewalk along Old sh Hills Ro should be improved to a concrete sidewalk to ensure ADA compliance uh have we agreed to do that yes and is that shown on the exhibits yeah it's shown on C1 I can turn back for the board if that if that's it's shown it's uh it's shaded in in Gray so you can see the what we're proposing and that and that sidewalk will be designed in accordance with the county county spec since we are on the county road um we're on to item four now John the curb ramp yeah the curb ramp on um in section of Park Road and nosho road is proposed to be replaced is recommended that the rectangular rapid flly Asing Beacon sign should be placed there and and we agreed to do that that's just for the board the the uh just to refresh the board the park Parker uh has sidewalks and that's really and there's only one crosswalk that brings the the public to to be able to cross oore Hills Road and it's located there and uh and with the new sidewalk will be extended to the end uh of our of our property line and uh that that condition will be improved to be ADA Compliant um item five I think is one of those instances where it's just a a statement of fact the size of the parking space is shown on the plan scale to 9 by1 19 and the AIS width is 23 feet both of which meet requirements of section 5165 of the ORD that your understanding as well yes and item six the number of EV Make Ready parking spaces exceeds the minimum required by ordinance by including the credit that's allowed for providing the EB parking spaces the applicant has complied with the minimum parking space requirement that's your understanding as well that's correct um page four new uh subject matter topic storm water management correct if you could go through there the storm M management the board engineer provided uh roughly six six six total comments and uh and I can go through one by one but it in essence to summarize uh the board Engineers agreed with our St Water Management design I I don't think there are any any issues that were raised as far as the design so uh I mean if the board would like I can go through them then certainly she'll have the opportunity to express whether or not you know she's got any quival or any disagreement with that correct no thank you the the next topic is on page five for a moment though on the last one the storm water management plan I think it requires a stipulation that you'll comply with the obligations stated there in correct as far as followup maintenance submitted to the township engineer annual basis Etc it I want to assume your stipulation no thank you very much I'm glad yeah you're correct and that's the a document that would typically required to be recorded and that was submitted and you will record yes cler County Clerk as well yes stipulated as such yes manual thank you uh the next topic on page uh five has to do with lighting the lighting plan uh number one lighting plan parameters reporter shows a slight but acceptable aluminum suceeding and average full culs in four uh locations all the other parameters minimum average uh average to minimum ratio maximum to minimum ratio meet the design criteria so so to back up on that one just a minute so she identified four locations on the site where there's an exceedence of light level so could you specify exactly where those are on the site and the reason uh for for the proposed levels of light yeah I don't I don't have the an exhibit to show that but the in essence they're located internally to the site and uh not at the uh at the perimeter to the neighbors and what would be the reason for those well a lot of times with with with traffic foot can whenever you're close to a fixture uh the the levels uh are tend to be higher at the base of the of the poles and uh but the idea for lighting design is that you you look to for the average for the entire site uh that's why the uh the average uh the maximum average to minimum ratios maximum to to minimum ratio those are parameters that allow for that to compensate for that localize a hotspot if you will correct me if I'm wrong but the they comply with all the site design uh requirements with respect to lighting these four locations where there's an exceedance uh the average though is compliant so there is no deviation from an ordinance provision either by way of requiring a variance or a plan design waiver correct well I don't think it rises to that level it's the Minimus exceedence and if anything it wouldn't be a a a variance it would be a weight right if anything I was just asking for confirmation if it's correct that there is no waiver required for the board to determine given the fact that there's compliance all the other design I don't know is that correct thank you to to make to sort of to uh add to that if I may if you recall at the last hearing the board uh asked that the light poles be a total 12 feet in height uh what we were showing is the the pole height to be 12 plus the fixture we've agreed to lower uh the so that the maximum height to the fixure to the top of the fixture is 12 feet so that may alleviate those uh that concern with the hotspots because we're lowering the light P but more importantly item number two uh there the board engineer indicated that there is no offsite spillage of lighting to the neighbors around the perimeter which is the more stringent sort of uh design requirements that we're typically held to and number three uh with being asked that the wall mounted fixture specified shall be shielded to conform to dark sky recommendations and appli should provide testimony uh as to the the conformance with pole M fixtures to the recommended dark sky all the fixures that we have we have proposed will be shielded and are complying with dark sky ww and correct all the all the fixures and I if I recall correctly there are two levels of dark sky lighting compliance is that correct if you know I no normally I think the requirement that you want to keep your light fixtures to 3,000 Kelvin and be uh St Sky compliant uh and also a lot of times you can add if shieldings required that can be added additionally but I I personally am not aware that there's three levels of dark sky yeah there's typically there's half cut offs full cut off fixtures so full cut off would be where the shade comes down to Shield any sorts of the source of the light from this corre are we agreeing to full cut offs yes okay and then I I still thought that there there's a certain CER there's levels of certification for dark lighting but maybe that's something that we we can look into that and just so we're clear as to what's being stipulated to right so uh in in the past my experience is that the fixtures are specified to be dark sky compliant and ours will do that uh we will check in if there's an additional uh levels of dark sky that's but I I can't testify to that if you make that determination let us know higher level as well absolutely item number four is far lighting uh application test as to whether the proposed site signage located at the northwest corner at the intersection of parsonage in Old sh Hills sh Hills Road will be illuminated and the answer is will not be illuminated the next topic is landscaping and item number one uh it it's more of a statement and and the the answer is uh yes it has to do with recognition as we discussed at the last at last hearing there two very small steep slope areas on the site which we not disturbing and uh and the area should be adequately uh landscaped especially as we discussed the the just to remind the board uh the Basin the storm water basin has a 3:1 uh burm on the on the South Side as shown here and uh the Landscaping drawing that I will present in a few minutes uh you recall at the last hearing has very uh dense uh Landscaping to to protect the steep slope on that 3 to1 slope of the burm for the Bas so you'll stipulate theate landscap stabilization the correct you'll be subject to approval of our engineer correct absolutely uh I number two refers to the just a recognition that we have had received comments from the township Forester a memo dated October 9th 2024 and all the coms related to to Tre removal replacement as well as Landscaping species uh uh stated in the in the Foresters memo we had it at the last hearing stipulated that we we agree to comply with all the comments from the Forester Forester memo of September 13th it says October 9th I have a September 13th maybe there was a sub I think that was a Ty when was a typ in in my report I referred to the October 9th oh you had a type okay okay so you repeated the type got it yeah I'm I'm looking Mr warrner you have September 13th okay yes the same memo that you're referen yes correct and and and I believe you to compliance with the entirety of it at the last hearing correct according to my notes we did correct yes the next topic is a general topic uh actually can I just want to uh I want to clarify just to make sure there's no misunderstanding I'm looking now at that September 13th Foresters memo with with replacement trees you'll recall that uh based on the number of trees that are being removed the ordinance has a replacement requirement and what we're proposing is under that total number but as the planner report notes if for some reason that number is not met there's an alternative means of complying by way of making contribution to the to the tree fund and what we had talked about and what we're stipulating to and more than happy to do is we have no issue with complying with that requirement if we can and it makes sense meaning there's enough room given the existing mature tree growth and everything else that we're proposing that if we meet that full number they'll Thrive they'll survive you know they're not just going to get choked out by the canopy of what surrounds them so we will work with the with the Forester to see if we can do that and come as close as we can and if we can't for those reasons then we would use the fallback that's available under the ordinance make the required contribution in Loop right the in Loop contribution would be for the the deficiency that cors if any after all reasonable efforts to meet the require that's correct and everything else items two through six were were straightforward yes will comply no problem the uh under General uh the last three items uh uh item number one and number two are it's more administrative uh items that are are typical that uh just a reminder that we have to at the start of construction post a performance bond of 40% of the engineers construction estimate as well as post an escro fee to pay the services of thirdparty inspectors and we that's standard and will definitely we're agreeing to that stipulate and um number three it's a reiteration that the uh sanitary system study uh would have to be taken place and we had discussed that the answer is yes thank you John I think you have two other exhibits though that correct and uh also uh not to the other comment while I have this exhibit so I don't have to go back and forth uh they were you're referring to now is it's C3 A3 applicants A3 A3 uh drawing a number exhibit C3 and uh the there were comments from the traffic consultant regarding U uh providing uh side triangles at for both driveways as well as side triangles for uh the public making a rightand turn from parsonage Hill Road onto Ure Hills Road as well as uh uh uh we were asked to do a side triangle for traffic going North as so we provided that except that we did not have the survey for past uh parsil road to the north but we provided uh a street view from Google as well as uh uh Google Earth images to show that there is sufficient side triangle so in essence uh all the side triangles uh that were being asked for are shown here and and we meet the requirements that that is it for the enger report but I can show the other two exhibits please one is the revised Landscaping plan and what you see here is the is the Landscaping plan that we have presented the I'm going have to interrupt you again I'm sorry no problem so can you just take a quick look what you're showing on the Smartboard that's the same one that I've got shown here a hard copy correct um so this is titled landscaping and tree replacement plan it's exhibit C2 dated November 5th 2024 I'd like to mark identification as applican A2 [Music] okay yes uh so for the board and the public this is the uh land similar to the Landscaping plan that was presented at the last hearing the only changes that we've made was to reflect what we're proposing as the new Dr location as well as the uh Paving of the the the dryway from the upper lot to the lower lot it but essentially the the storm waterer basins the the bio the biob Basin are the same uh and we've uh attempted to add additional trees there was a lot of comments from the neighbors regarding uh being able to see the project from from the from the neighbors from from all directions and what we had testified that the the site has a uh a lot of existing vegetation that we're maintaining along shills Road parts our neighbors to the west and and as you can see to The partially to the South as well as against the uh the storm water basin so uh but what we did was uh in in U also to address some of the comments was that the prior version of the Landscaping plan did not show all the trees that are remaining with their canopies and again the the what we testified to was that because there are are so many trees that exist on the site that we're maintaining that uh adding the shortfall of trees that we have to replace for the township ordinance it becomes difficult because they they just will not survive with all that canopy that's already there so this exhibit shows all the existing trees in in a light gray with their with their uh canopy that we Tred to uh we measure from our site visit and so we've us we sprinkled new trees that you can see there new uh new new trees new species new uh new shrubs so that the site has a uh a large amount of uh landscaping and again just to uh uh to uh address the comments that we have received there's a total of 124 trees on the site uh we are cutting six means like today as we stand here right now based on the last our survey visiting the site and it's not I think I'm not aware of any additional any cutting that has gone on since the survey was on site surveyor uh we are cutting 64 trees and according to the to the requirement for replacement of trees by the township we are required to uh to replace 208 trees to replace uh we are this plan indicates that we're only able to add 138 new trees so we have a short fall of 70 trees which we are we're proposing to uh uh to donate the to the tree fund and and again as I had stated you know when if and when the time comes we'll roll up our sleeves and and sharpen pencils and work with the Forester to see if that can if that can be pushed up closer to the to the requirement and if we meet it and everyone's comfortable that those trees can Thrive then fantastic and if not only at that point would any deficiency we would propose to address by the contribution thanks can I ask a clarifying question on that um you know I I drive by the site regularly um and uh you know you mentioned the last time your surveyor was there I see the plan I know is dated uh yesterday no yeah the fifth so I know at the site it appears there are shrubs or some variety of small trees around the perimeter but you know you shared this plan and I'm not it doesn't look like it match is what I have in my mind so I'm just no it's it's it's a good comment the the drawing is dated November 5th but the survey was there not not uh yesterday a week or so of the numbers not so we are showing and um locating trees a lot of the Shrubbery anything typically that's lower than a 6in diameter dbh those are considered minor trees and we don't we don't show all those thank you to canies and everything here what is on the under side of all these canies these are very large trees where you can see if you're you know in a car standing so what is supposed to be shielding correct there's that's that's a great question and uh we don't we do not show the Shrubbery that uh exists in fact uh I'm aware from my visit to the site that it's relatively dense along Short Hills Road and uh so but a lot of the denseness is made up by minor trees and Shrubbery which we don't we don't plot on the drawing that's yes when as you can see by the uh by the uh the the gray uh outline of existing trees all of that and also if you I don't have the site plan if you look at our area of disturbance all that area along Short Hills Road other than where the utilties are coming in and the driveway are not being touched as as well as along Parson the jail road now that we've relocated the driveway all of that area right here is staying pretty much natural and if you could so you're now referring to applicants A2 and you said so could you just um you know with reference to directions correct saw your finger again the south side of parsonal road uh going heading east to to the intersection then adding adding South along the west side of uler rides Road a lot of that vegetation is staying and similarly as you can see on the west side because we we have residential neighbors to the west and and to the South so all a lot of that existing canopy and trees are remaining uh but in the interior of the site is where the trees are being cut and you were you were describing um the southern edge of pars road so basically everything east of the new driveway cut that we're proposing up to the intersection and then heading south on the west side of old short Hills Road I guess there are only two interruptions right the underground utility runs from the existing utilities and the right away correct and then the drive and that driveway is that an existing driveway loc well well there was an existing driveway but not that exact location and other than that everything else that's not impacted by those things correct so you can see it's a a very dense uh uh Landscaping uh for the site which is obviously uh alleviates the the concern that the public had raised and I can also tell for the benefit of the members of the board and any members of the public who live uh nearby that when the time comes for our architect to testify he's prepared uh an exhibit that you know shows uh in a more three-dimensional way um the existing trees that will remain and and get gives you a better sense as opposed to a plan view of what some of the views would be from offsite uh and preserve yeah precisely in elevation view yes question so so what percentage of the tree is being removed would you say are mature trees sorry I hear question what percentage of the trees being removed are mature trees well it actually we have shown that on our on our drawings we provided a if I may I will now uh move to to our exhibit C4 or A4 to be marked John just give me a quick Lo this is the like the right one up here yes uh all right then um the plan it's titled existing conditions and demolition plan exhibit C4 that's dated 115 2024 I'd like to mark for identification of appli okay the this Exhibit C 4 or A4 uh is this is the existing condition site plan that uh locates all the trees and uh what one of the comments that we had received the last time was that we had not identified all the trees we basically were only showing the trees that were are remaining and uh uh being being uh removed so this this exhibit shows with these three tables shows all the trees on the side as I indicated we have 24 total trees as you can see here and 64 trees are being cut so what we did to to to make it easier for everyone to follow that this initial table on the right hand side of drawing a C4 lists all the trees that were're cutting all 64 and if if I'll zoom in to answer the board memb question regarding sizing I uh I will zoom in because my eyes right will not allow me to to read that table Council will Mr fronte also be speaking to the um environmental commission's memorandum some of which is touches on some of the items that he is addressing yeah just briefly I don't know um there are some recommendations in there uh I may be able to address them I don't know that they require additional testimony I think there are requests for complying with certain things but we'll certainly address it yeah than my laptop is not cooperating it's locked up so if I may I will res I'll go the old fashioned way go to refer to the drawings so in essence uh it's a variety of trees uh you can see the 64 trees that are being cut they average from uh let's say on the low end 7.6 dbh uh that's diameter breast height to uh just scanning down there is a a 44.5 inch uh a white ash uh there's a lot of uh 14inch 26 inch Pines uh a lot of small lot of arbites at 11 11 in 10 in 14 in Norway there's a several Norway spruce that average 10 inch diameter a 30inch sugar maple 35 inch white pine and uh again uh 23 Norway Maple and 22inch grab Apple but they're all listed there and again the the the trees that we're cutting as as this drawing indicates are are at the middle of the property where the building is located at the center of the property as well as where the parking lot is uh but so you can see also from this drawing that all the perimeter trees are on the perimeter of the parking lot on the obviously on the south side near the the Basin they're being cut but we we tried hard to to maintain as much of the of the uh of the uh canopy around the in this case three sides plus this Southeast side uh of the property with the existing trees the only thing we had to because of the burm for the uh for the drainage Bas and we had to cut the trees down on the south side of the property I don't know that answers your question mat I just have a question as I'm looking at the prints that we received there's a list of free remal counts and it ranges anywhere from 10 to 42 in trees that will be removed and now you're saying we're jumping to this list so these are now going to remain so say again on figure six uh revision C okay from theint that we originally received corre a list of tree removal count correct of 217 trees and they listed anywhere from 10 in to 42 in correct and that's the list I was referring to the 64 trees on on that table on C4 so there the exact same yes we've managed to maintain the same number of trees that we're cutting yes then then we also provided a table that based on the on the ratios that the township requires as far as diameter trees there's a ratio depending on the diameter how many trees you get replaced So based on that ratio we've calculated that 28 trees will have to be uh would would want would uh are required to be replanted however based on the the density we're only able to uh to locate 138 trees to replace so we have a short fall of 70 trees um another question so um I know in parts of of shills there are trees that have been designated as historic none of these trees have been designated as as historic on this property we uh I'm I'm not aware of that but we can we can check that the E said that there were no trees identified and also the when we get to it the mberg environmental Commission report dated November 4th 2024 also uh it does not indicate any the presence of any historic trees which would be consistent with ouris and they did conduct it does also note in here that they did conduct a site visit on uh September I'll find it but they do acknowledge that they did a site visit September 19th 2024 in essence that sort of concludes my uh presentation of the exhibits and review the since you're on the subject of the treat and I assume you're going to address the environmental commission report as well so since it relates to obviously trees as well as other items that I assume would be pertain to the Civil engine area of expertise um but while you're talking about the trees and the replacement trees I don't believe I heard anything as far as uh tree Heights at installation did I miss that no I think we've uh proposed it's the sort of the standard caliper uh two and a half inch for the replacement trees right the height of the trees I planted the planted height yes normally the a 2 and a half inch caliper for the the trees were proposing they're 10 feet on average so some boards prefer uh little taller trees so that so that the canopy can be can be replaced quicker quicker if there's a stand is there a standard planting detail in the ordinance with regard to um I'm not I'm not sure you would have to ask for us I don't know what she yes we can check that understand so so you're removing some trees that are 44 in in diameter two in in diameter I think there's a few couple yes with two in diameter trees well the the town ordinance gives you the ratio to replace specifically for that reason so so when you say the ratio so the larger the tree that you the more replacement yes the more replacement trees correct doesn't require larger replacement trees it requires more of the standard height replacement trees is that correct correct so can I ask a question if if we have an issue a little Lou sorry if we have an issue in terms of being not being able to put as many trees as are required on possibly on the property would it be possible to increase the diameter of some of the trees instead so that they're larger in diameter rather than having you know such a large number of replacement trees that they would need to survive on the property I can answer on behalf of the we would want to be consistent with any planting detail that the ordinance requires in another if if you were to try to install a 50 foot tall tree that's you know 10 inches in diameter that would be exorbitantly expensive and it require except you know large equipment to get on site that that's not something I think the applicant would countenance question yeah so um have any calculations been done as just speak up I think folks can picked up on the you're being picked up on the YouTube but not in the audience like they can't hear you louder these are not amplifying oh okay um so my question is you know there's some very large trees that you guys are taking down they absorb a certain amount of storm water has there been any calculations done to see what impact that's going to have to get rid of those mature trees plant these little I mean two inches that's sort of like a twig right it's not kind absorb nearly as much water have there been any calculations done no not specifically uh regarding that uh uh the sort of groundwater uptake by the large trees but again just to remind everyone that based on the the DP BMP manual we are required to design the the the amount of storm water that's flowing out of the site for the 2 10 and 100e storm has to be for for example for the 100e storm has to be uh much has to be lower than the pre-existing condition we are capturing uh based on the location of the of the basins as well as our storm water management design from the parking lot the roof and everything else from the site uh whereas now most of the the sheet flow from the property as I indicated the last meeting flows from the the high point on parsonage hill and it flows directly south towards our towards towards the neighboring property and right now pretty much all the all the storm water that's flowing on this property uh sheet flows uh out of the property to the to to the South we are capturing pretty much all of that with the exception of a few drainage areas that we are not touching such as the area to the West that goes to the existing uh stream that Daylights on the property uh some of the flow let's say very minor flows from along uh the East the east side on Old Shore Hills Road but so lence we are capturing and infiltrating storm water through our the biobase and that we provideed so so because of that we meet all the D standards and also to just to uh refresh the board and I'm sure the board engineer will uh base on the new storm OT rules that were enacted I think last year we are required to design for the 2100 rainstorm so and so all those uh factors so the factor of safety in the storm water design is pretty pretty sizable uh and we meet and we designed for that but the answer your question that was a long when that answer to to say no we didn't do those calculations but to do those calculations we require a lot of soil data at at the tree location and uh but we are not at least also aren't required not required chair now that we brought up the basins um it's my understanding that they're not typically put into existing residential neighborhoods uh was anything else considered well as far as the the Basin other things that uh are considered in essence New Jersey d uh prefers as a as a technology to infiltrate as much as the water as possible uh so we are required to infiltrate the uh the water quality storm which is typically the two-year storm which we've done that uh urban areas I'm not uh we're also exempt from infiltrating uh uh the the the the other storms that if you we were outside of the urban area we would have to infiltrate so let me ask you if you were designing a residential development here corre would it be uncommon to have a storm water basin similar to the one that you're proposing here actually stor water basins whether what we see here is is is when you look at the hierarchy what the prefers is one of the preferred methodologies even in a residential even in a residential are is the is the notion that storm water basins similar to this one are not typically installed or implemented in residential areas is that simply inaccurate it it really the the answer is yes but it's qualified yes it depends on the size of the property and the size of the disturbance typical Residential Properties that we do and Township prefer the dry Wells you know sort of collecting the the roof water to dry Wells the the dryway coming in and out of the site in dry Wells but for something of this sub magnitude as far as the size of the parking upper and lower uh dry Wells then tend not to be very uh practical plus d only allows dri Wells according to the bmps for uh only for the two-year storm not for 100 years stor best manag practices correct can I just add that the D requires for a major development which is one acre or more disturbance or Andor a quarter of an acre of millas coverage they require the storm water basin and uh bio retention green infrastructure type device for regulated motor vehicle service which is what parking lots are so they've conformed with that and I also want to point out I don't know if you were on the board but one we did poure away that subdivision there is a storm water basin on that site because it did exceed the um greater than one acre of disturbance and qu acre of it was a subdivision with two houses and an additional street so they were required to to do that inten basis so it's it's it's unusual in a town that's fully developed like we are where uh many times you're just adding you know putting an addition on an existing house wouldn't require a storm water detention Basin but something of the size it it work so that brings me to the next question um the driveway change and some of the changes that were made uh are the calculations still remaining the same as yes great question actually the the the proposed driveway change actually reduces impervious area and reduces the the disturbance to the site because it's it's a much more direct route and the the elevations are more favorable we don't need a lot of earth work to to create the the driveway that we had before so what is the calculation you have that I I do but it does this again it's the exhibit we're trying to get the board to to accept what we're proposing as a potential change we would have to then go back and modify the storm water management to reflect what I'm presenting as far as the uh the exhibit so we have not been so presumptive to to say that the board was going to accept what we're proposing we've made an effort to conceptually show you what we think we can do being responsive to the correct and we understand that ultimately revised plans would have to be submitted that confirm and and new calculations variances we still comply with would still be able to provide that you I have no choice yes we have to and and if I may and uh if it results in your opinion to the ability to reduce the magnitude of the storm water management would you still be able to nevertheless maintain the same level of uh storm water management detention Etc ret uh that's already proposed even if it's a lower impervious coverage or perhaps a lower requir we would attempt to do that so it it's a balance in the design if if you will uh we we have certain mandates that we have to design to such as reducing the uh the post-development flow from the site to less than 80% of the predevelopment for the 100e storm we we could design right to the 79.9% but in our case we were a little bit more conservative and we didn't design right to the number if there's no reason why you can't maintain what might be an oversized uh system and certainly our engineer could speak to that if it's even fusable I guess but but would you be willing to keep uh that more conservative oversized system uh I think I don't think the applicant's prepared to stipulate to that at this point um I think um if what we're proposing requires less by way of storm water management I don't think at this point the applicants prepared to stipulate that they would essentially over engineer and overdesign it to create a wider margin of safety over above the margin of safety that's required by the regs correct um so we're not prepared to stipulate to that at this point once we actually have to submit the revised plans if if we're talking about you know a minor change or a minor amount of construction cost a minor amount of construction uh delay um you know we consider it but we're not prepared to stipulate to that at this point we'll cross that detention Bas on when we get do you have other questions yeah again so back to my original question um is there any way or was there a thought of integrating um more into the landscape and the neighborhood and decrease having these basins available because that's my question was it was it even considered right if I understand correct the question correctly it's what other measures we can do to reduce the size of the basins if I sort of capture your question um yes so so there are other uh things we can do uh for example we can consider the uh porest pavement that will help uh uh reduce the amount of flow that goes to the Basin we would do more infiltration via Visa V the porest pavement uh with with sand filters so there's a lot of Technologies and we'd be glad to to work with the engineer to because from what I'm hearing you would like to reduce the size of the of the Bas and ultimately well I think what I'd like to even though it's the practice sorry we just need to maintain so I think the answer to the question is we're proposing basins we're showing our plans on the basins your engineers reviewed basins your engineers confirmed we comply with the applicable regs with Basin so that's what we have before the board thank you there any other questions it is required by D that a Bas be used that not necessarily A Basin there's a list of different things like John mentioned a sand filter um there's but you have to make sure that you're able to to get the number or the quantity of the volume that you're required to get and some of these smaller type devices won't do that no he does have a combination he's got the bio retention Basin as well as the storm water basin so he's meeting the uh D regulations as required so um I I couldn't see at any this point to disagree with it because he's meeting all the requirements and so like the Woodland hill or Woodland road development is that a comparable size far of impermeable surface that they need to handle where they're doing different because was that site was entirely developed and they're actually decreasing significantly the amount of um detention that's required and in fact they didn't at the time that they submitted these regulations were not in place the new R from 2023 so they were meeting the requirements when they first submitted in 20202 yes so they didn't have those regulations in place and they weren't required to provide that detention Cas but they did I mean we asked them I asked them to put in a bank of dry Wells they didn't have to do that um but I asked them to do it just to slow down the flow of water into the Arboretum Channel and they agreed to do that so that will I think that will help quite a back but they met all the requirements at time and just one question also on the infiltration the base must be empty in 72 hours correct so what percentage are we talking about that's actually going back into the ground well the the biobase and it's all it's all being infiltrated and it has to be as you correctly indicate the requirements are that it has to be emptied within 30 70 to2 hours uh based on our calculation uh both basins will be less than 32 hours okay so that that means it's just going into the storm water system not going into no the the biob Basin is most it's all infiltrated there is an there is an overflow because all the the flow is directed there because part of the biob basin's uh the function is to remove uh a DP requires removal of suspended solids from the parking lot 80% so that it's a technology it's it allows for that to be filtered out of the water it's require it's a requirement so it it gets infiltrated and then anything that uh is higher than the typical two-year storm will then flow to the to the lower to the other Basin to the detention base and and that Basin also will uh will have some infiltration but the primarily function though it's a detention Basin will store the water and release it slowly B are being buil out not typical to the soil site that very correct and that study it has to have one of the things that in the next phase when we go into details engineering uh we would we would get all the soil data required to to validate the infiltration rates we also have to make sure that uh the bottom of the Basin is uh is uh not within two feet of a groundwater because then you'll get mounding and then they don't they don't function properly so all that has to be uh done and with the engineers review all that calculations follow question on that well if it's pertinent to that discussion I want to let you finish up the discussion yeah so I my question is from an engineering perspective if you had permeable surface for the parking lot wouldn't that more quickly disperse the water into the ground whereas with the Basin it seems like what's happening is you're concentrating all the water into a specific area wouldn't that also cause more risk of an overflow it yeah it's a sort of a difficult question to answer but the premise of your question is is correct is let's assuming we had a a permeable surface on the parking lot all that water would all the rain water would fall on the parking lot and and infiltrate um unfortunately uh D in their wisdom they even if let's say if we use a per a porous pavement we're not allowed to learn to lower the C value C value is the coefficient of that uh rep is representative of the site condition other words a grassy lawn has a coefficient of C of about3 point4 uh parking lot 0.95 so based on the the requirements for DP even though we would uh require we would use a porest pavement and we have a a a soil that can infiltrate we still have to treat the parking lot with a with a c value of 0.95 in other words it's almost 100% impervious so all those that adds the volume that we're it doesn't lower the volume that we have to handle in other words reduce the risk of overflow well the the risk of overflow from the Basin is that sort of the question yeah the the Basin is designed for the 100-year storm has to retain all the water coming from the site has to retain that and it has to uh slowly uh let that water out but it we have 72 hours to empty the Basin uh so all the stor water flow that we're designing to is not sorry is the 100e storm for the 2100e storm so all those ratios so the so the Basin is designed properly for the DP requirements um um Miss Callahan had referred to some good housekeeping stuff and I was just wondering how often will de be removed from the site as it's accumulating as far as maintenance of the Basin she just talking about the uh the comment in the board Engineers memo about good housek practices during construction and just you know keep the site free of debris and and and refuge so in terms of good construction practices how how often does that happen well the this the Sol erosion St control plan has very specific requirements as far as maintaining the the sil fence around the site has to be inspected uh regularly and because obviously if you get a lot of sediments during construction the sediment the sediment fabric can get clogged that has to be replaced as far as the good house keeping is the the contractor is responsible for maintaining that as far as uh uh but that can be stipulated and we know that the board engineer and their and their inspectors will visit the site regularly sorry madam chair Shuff out from the thank you correct only the person who's testifying can provide testimon one correct okay um so that can something there will be oversight um yes okay my my other question I think it came up in one of the reports is um what are you proposing for Access um for the uh maintenance plan of the um basins how is there going to be access to maintain yes we that was one of the comments and uh you can show that on the exhibit yeah fine it'll be faster can you just say into the microphone the question for everybody yes the question was uh how will access to the Basin be uh be provided for maintenance for maintenance purposes obviously and uh we also want to indicate that the as part of the stor Water Management a a a maintenance and inspection plan has to be submitted that we which we submitted so what we the way we graded the site as you can see I'm sorry you're refering to A1 is that right uh exhibit C1 applicants A1 right uh I'm sorry the board may not see this but we provide a sufficient access so that the top of the BMS the entrance to the to the basins is from uh a gate uh adjacent to the waste area area and so we provided a gate so that typical uh Landscaping uh uh trucks and and and and equipment to maintain maintain to cut the grass to maintain the Shrubbery uh is provided there with a sufficient amount of uh uh with so permits that yes thank you um and last question in terms of the location of the play area how I think you said it I didn't quite hear you um how close to the neighboring properties is that can be and how well scened is that can be yeah the uh the playground which is located on the south side of the upper lot you can see here I apologize and you can't see my finger but uh it to the to the nearest neighbor to the west uh just looking at the scale it's it's over uh over 50 feet in other words we have a uh a a uh a 25 feet residential buffer and we have the side yard setback so we're even we're about 10 ft past the all those the 40 foot side so 50 ft is is is is what I estimate visually plan also shows an existing six foot fence in that location correct correct and if I made that 50 ft is to the residential property line not to a dwelling correct the dwelling is even greater right so the property line and the Landscaping plan does that also show proposed Landscaping uh buffering further buffering that play area correct you can you can see on uh my exhibit C2 we provided uh Shrubbery uh around the uh the western and southern edge of the park of the playground thanks Sean thank you so I have a question about the lighting plan you had indicated that uh you were accommodating our previous concerns and lowering so the maximum height of the light is is 12 feet and you sort of told us that that should help reduce some of the minor inconsequential overage I'm just for our our our Township engineer can you since I am not an expert in lighting is that presumption reasonable or is that something we can rely on that that if you lower in my mind if you lower a light it arguably makes it more intense on on the ground sorry I'm thinking that the um the increased uh levels that we're getting is because there's overspill and overlap from other sources so the higher it goes the more overlap corre if you lower it it'll be more concentrated and not ex next right but your your premise is also correct so if I have a flashlight that I'm shining directly down the intensity is is higher than away from the light it's a smaller diameter of course yes questions chair I'd like to finish my questioning just about no that's okay it was more an interruption of not being able to finish um so again I'd like to go to the basins you said that you were uh the responsible for the EP report um is that every year every five years what is that it's the it's a schedule that we stipulate in the in the management plan and and different Technologies require different uh different schedules for this for this type of basin we typically uh recommend Coral visual inspections and then in uh uh as needed if debris there should be uh little no debris entering the Basin but in essence that would have to be looked at as well as uh to make sure that the the out outfall Outlet control structure doesn't get clogged with leaves that would have to be uh maintained and John do those that inspections involve um checklists that are part of correct of the plan and does that require uh reporting to the to the municipality yes and that annually yes and M M you reviewed the uh the maintenance plan to that meet with your approval and the uh the bio detention um is that filter so the filters have to be changed yes they're the typical design as you can see from the from the Landscaping drawing the bof filter has uh Shrubbery inside which help with the water uptake as far as that that's concerned and it does have a sand filter and there's a uh inspection ports for the UN there's an under drain system that will collect the water and those under drains can be inspected with clean there's cleanouts that you can ins inspect and maintain the the drainage layer underneath the the biob Basin in that function yes and I think this question is more from Martha and umth are there fines for not uping as far as I know there is no established F that would have to be written the ordinance and but we do have the requirement I require them every year because I provide a report every year to the D do May 1 every year and I have to stipulate in the report that all these detention basins that we have in town have done their inspections and they provided those to I available to get the okay and your profession opinion um due to the uh lock coverage is driving then the Basin to be installed is that correct yes okay thank you very much other questions for Mr fr so I think the there's some behind you sorry just for from gr oh I'm sorry from our board planer ande would you mind coming up to the mic and just um no I'm G swear yeah please raise your right hand do you swear to God or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth of nothing but the truth I do and there may be some testimony in your questioning and for the benefit of the members of the public this is Joseph Fisher he's the uh traffic engineer who was retained by the board uh as an independent traffic engineer uh to assist the board in connection with the traffic and parking uh uh uh uh testimony and Exhibits that's going to be provided not only by the civil engineer who we heard from but also the traffic engineer for the applicant we have not yet heard from so Sor right it's and for the record it's Joseph Fishinger fi i n g r with Bright View engineering um Mr Fran I'm right here okay um my apologies for jumping around I know uh um some of these will be a little out of order um as far as the where you located the playground The Parking Spot in the southwest most corner is the fence how far is the fence from that parking spot my concern is will you still be if you're parked in that spot will you be able to open your car doors to get out yeah we're showing the fence to be right uh probably a it's not dimension on the drawings but looking at the draw it's about a foot away from the from the edge of the parking space I'm sorry what was that Dimension about a foot is that sufficient for somebody to get out of their car or will you need to adjust the well it's it the parking space is is the standard parking space so it's it's the same situation if someone is parked next to you uh can you open a door you have to be careful um and again similar question regarding the space right next to the trash enclosure is there enough space for somebody to get in and out of the car next to the yes the wall um jumping around you mentioned the a dedication whether that's an easen orous be simple up at um old par Old parsonage Road and or Parson Road and Old Short Hills Road do you would you be agreeable to that easement encompassing enough space for a right a dedicated right turn lane should the county ask for that or the county look to put one in in the future I think on on the applicants back we're going to comply with what the county requires of us that they have jurisdiction over at that at that intersection okay um the driveway onto parsonage Road do you know what the slope of that driveway is yes it's uh less than 4% and realizing that I've seen these exhibits tonight just like everyone else uh would you be agreeable to minor revisions to the driveway on Parson Hill Road just to make sure that a garbage truck can swing that turn adequately it looks kind of tight but I haven't had a chance to look at it in detail yeah absolutely uh we we can U just to REM sort of uh one of the limitations we have that the the township as a requirement for the maximum width of a driveway uh we're trying to balance that so we to balance that we would probably increase the size of the of the lane slightly I'm sure I'm sure we can work something out between either my office or the the town's engineer um then regarding the sidewalk that connects your building out to Old Short Hills Road can you verify the dimension of that sidewalk yes it's sorry what we uh what we went with is a a three- foot wide sidewalk we went uh with a 3 foot y sidewalk we're pro proposing as you see by the Shaded area along the the county right away a five- foot sidewalk just to orient and is the intent For That Sidewalk to be ADA Compliant was my understanding you needed at least four feet for comp with three feet complies with the uh Ada and uh and that sidewalk will comply with it Ada as long as you can agree that it complies with Ada we'll we'll cite the regulations later yep and then with regard to the site triangles and the Landscaping would you be agreeable to trimming liming any trees up to 7 feet or cutting any Shrubbery down to two and a half feet anything within the site triangles I know you didn't show them on the Landscaping plan I just want to make sure that those site triangles will be clear of any vegetation correct and I just want to confirm that the site triangles are entirely on the subject property correct adjoining properties no my concern is that anything on their property is doesn't block site visibility absolutely correct those are all my questions at least for this witness than even um I just have two two question questions Grand pedo um here is board planner this evening um two questions both related to the um play area first could you just review what The Pedestrian P I know we've talked a little bit I believe that the school or Child Care uh location is at the lower level of building we haven't had architecture testimonies to this point but that's what I believe you've stated what would the pedestrian path be to exit the building to reach that play area I see I'm assuming in Ence yeah uh the door they would be accessing obviously I cannot comment on the interior functioning of the building yeah that's not you see there there are three doors to uh concrete sidewalks so they would exit and U you most we providing a depressed curve so they would walk up into the play area as you can see following the the driveway uh what we're providing also you can see as when we widen the driveway we we we're striping no parking along a a good uh width of that driveway uh so they uh no cars will be there so the ideal is that the teacher will would allow the students to travel in the uh across that area where no parking is will be stipulated okay would there be any opportunity or benefits of creating a crosswalk or having the students you know come out and to the you know exit in the door to the right and on that area instead of walking between it's a good comment we can add that absolutely yeah I think that might be Improvement to the site my other question isor just to clarify talking just a painted striped AC crosswalk on crosswalk yeah and and perhaps also some signage for vehicles traveling down the driveway to be alerted that students may be Crossing this driveway from the upper level to the lower level lot we we can also add the traffic calming vvv speed bumps that kind of thing yeah so call that traffic comment on that but you know something to to that effect um the second question that I have is really just related to the proposed size of the play area um know again we haven't had much much testimony about the school or you know Child Care Facility um I know it is proposed at 900 square feet does that meet the recommended requirements or whatever requirements are I I was provided this the space required so I cannot commment whether it meets the the State per student square footage but the architect will testify oh the arit so we just may want to you know plan to make sure that okay thank you thank you you have another question follow question yeah so I believe earlier um there was testimony that there would be no buses involved um while I understand students will primarily being picked up and dropped off are there any other circumstances in which case a bus may come through either for activities for you know people attending um either the school or the religious services I don't know if we've had testimony to use the space but I let you so we'll have to provide uh the rabbi will provide operational testimony uh to answer that question any other questions from members of the board right is there anything further from the engineer no okay so no no no further direct corre okay okay this time we'll open it to the public for questions regarding the engineer testimony that was given tonight if you have questions uh you can come on up and then we'll have you um just state your name uh come on up to this mic right here um name and address and then um because you're asking questions you don't have to get SW okay yeah my name is Sumit Toni s u m t t n y t n y uh my address is 168 old short and short so I'm right opposite the uh property uh this is my first meeting uh I was not aware that uh this kind of a meeting is being conducted I was not being given any notice these are hearings do you do you have questions of this particular witness oh not for witness but I just want to raise a point that I was I was not being notifi what's your address 168 within the 200 ft I'm right was it the uh on the the way it works is if you're if I may Madam chair yeah if you're within 200 feet of the perimeter of the subject property I am uh with me please sure uh the the the uh and you're on a list from the tax assessor's office demonstrating such the applicant uh is required to provide personal notice by way generally of certified mail uh the the uh if you're beyond that uh then as with anyone else beyond the 200 foot perimeter different name it'd be it' be published notice because there's also published notice provided in in the newspaper both more than 10 days in advance of this evening so we're finding out 16 16 so uh the way that it works is we submit a request to the township the Township Tax uh assessor and ask for a list of all the property owners on the municipal records that own property within 200 feet so we requested that list this is the list that they uh provided us okay that 168 old old Short Hills Road Town's tax record show that is still being owned by wenin and John M yeah so I bought it from there but regardless counselor was certified mailing made within at least 10 days prior to the first hearing to this gentleman's address it was it was and that's confirmed by the affid of the service that we submitted in advance of the first year but if it is submitted to my address is would it be addressed to me or would it be add it it has it it needs to be sent to the address that's the key regardless of who might own it at the time the tax assessor listed may have had a different name sometimes there actually may not be a name certain there are there are new laws where people's names are redacted from address so it's a mailing but the applicant did meet the notice requirement by sending the certified mail our our I'm pointing to our board secretary should not here this evening but but uh who cross reference to all the certified mail slips uh so the mailings were were made pursuant to the Affidavit of the applicant but also through the slips that were provided to the board secretary who cross referenced them so uh by the way it's it's when it's mailed the way the law works is is it's not when it gets there it's when it's mail that's fair 10 days prior but I'm not supposed to open someone else's mail well that again no I understand we could have a a long discussion about what the law should be or shouldn't be but the bottom line is the appli met their notice obligation for jurisdictional purposes for the board it was sent more than 10 days to the address on the list so that's but if you have questions of the uh engineer Now's the Time questions for the engineer because I'm new to the process well then yeah the way it works is after each witness you ask questions of the witness based on their testimony that they provided each witness has an area of expertise generally sometimes there's a fact witness um talking about operations uh but the engine civil engineer traffic engineer planner Architects they have their areas of expertise they provide that and then the board members and the members of the public have an opportunity to ask them questions like okay proceeding all right sounds good thank you sure can I ask how how long you've been at that address if you're comfortable to say just to have a sense of how yeah I I moved in like on August 26th okay August this year so August of this year okay and that might have been similar to when you submitted the application and received the list so okay and the lists are usually earlier than the applications they can be as much as six months or more earlier okay that's the way it work okay welcome to thank you okay other questions or any questions for Mr fronte regarding additional testimony okay come on also introduce yourself yes this is Stephen two par across the street step did you get you got his name okay great questions for Mr fan okay um so last time I try tried to get get answer to the question that the size of the the the dry pool and I wasn't able to get get an answer and um so after looking at the the the newly propos the the document I see the size as a 30,000 square cubic feet so so given given the given the the size and also I was able to find find the from the the appendex G I was say it was see the the the the pound report which has a has a drawing of the the discharge rate appendix G of the storm water management yes page6 thank you go ahead so so so basically the basic says it's it's until you reach at four four feet in High pretty much be be drain draining at at two cubic feet per per second so um and water level is higher and and then it's going going to be beting at at the the higher rate so the so so like on the this report I think the the the basic assumption is that the the the the manur able to to to able to take on that water uh you know for for for the the the the dry pound to to work effectively do you have a question for Mr fante yes yeah I'm get into to do that so so is that your assumption I I apologize I could you repeat the question so so in in Europe report that that this the this discharge rates well that that's the inflow hyd graph that you're pointing to so we have to calculate the inflow idog graph and balance that with the with the water entering the Basin so all of that is in the storm water report that the board Engineers reviewed and accepted uh I mean I could go through uh specifically Page by page I think he's asking you a yeah asking a question so your what assumption for for for that this this this discharging that diagram well the uh the inflow hydrograph is is is is based on the geometry of the Basin and the amount of water coming into the Basin and based on the on the outlet flow control it uh calculates how much water is retained over over a time period and that's what that graph represents yes so so so B basically he show shows the the amount of the the discharges for for for for uh specific height in in in the drive drive correct yes okay so so so basically for for the this D PL to work effectively the the water need to be a the the Mur will be have to be able to to discharge water at at at the SPI rate correct Madam chairman if I may yes um there's been extensive testimony about the storm water management plan uh there are regs that specify exactly how the calculation need to be performed they were prepared by a licensed civil engineer they've been independently reviewed and testified to by the board's independent civil engineer I would ask that we not spend an undue amount of time delving into exhibit G of a 800 page please the boble add objections are allowed to be made and the chair will address the objection uh it would do everyone a service if we all remain with civil and with the quum for these quasi judicial proceedings please okay thank you so Mr line to that point I understand we we do not want to belabor the question but I do want to allow you the opportunity to ask your specific questions so so far I've heard you ask about inflow and you have discharged questions specifically I want you to be able to finish your question but yes understanding that we'd like to move on as so so getting you that I my my my home has a Eastman that all the the S water to to pass to Downstream so we we can like in doing the big S we we get to see what had happened uh frequently for example in last time has FR watch I we we see the the the St water shoot out of of the the cover okay so the question is just understanding if this storm water basin would what will function I I question that this this will not may not be able to function as their design because the the the the existence of s water C cover capacity May uh maybe be used out complely during a big St so so I'm I'm not sure that it can take on uh will be able to discharge water as as specified in in the in the report if I may fante can address your concern and speak to why he made the opinion and the bo if I can sort of paraphrase the question if apologize if I'm not getting it correctly I think the question that you're asking is the way the design of the Basin the Basin is size to regulate the off offlow via an orifice initially then the next step is a an overflow rear which allows additional water so all that has to be balanced so that the amount of water that leaves the site has to be less than the pre-development volume of water for that design storm the Overflow is connected to uh to a uh to storm the storm water system on allsh Hills Road so I think your question is can the existing storm water sewer on allore Dees Road uh has the capacity for the connection from the Basin well sort of from Bas my own my my experience I I suspect that that your your your Dy Pond that they design and that the the discharge rate will may not be may not work as a specified because I my according to to my observation the existing the the the super main capacity is pretty much use okay so it sounds like you're sharing an observation which is which we appreciate but um I don't know that he's going to be able to respond to that and then then then then that that broughts to to the the next question so in in the report I see the the see a bunch of simulation we with a very short span in time so basically see the the the storm Peak that that that's that's that's last less than an hour and and I understand that that's what that's you design is D design is design to to meet requirement but I'm not sure that that that's realistic a lot of when no I I understand the I can answer that if you the the the the the the storm duration and storm design and storm water flow and storm water quantity is all dictated by D and we have to follow those strictly and we and we do and this report follows that so we have to uh not only the DP recommends the the type of storm that we have to design to uh it it provides additional factors of safety that we have to apply and in addition DP now requires us to not only to design the current uh uh intensity storm to 10 and 100 we have to apply additional factors of safety to design for a future storm for 2,100 and that was what the calculations are based on yes yes but only showing in your simulation just showing that you will take the water of short spike but but but then uh my I'm questioning forther thata will be applicable for for a long longer range that that have the yes the I I understand that the the typical storm that we designed to is is based on the intensities that d uh mandates we we as Engineers calculate the time of concentration time of concentration is the distance that water will travel from the furthest hydrological point on the site to the discharge point so let's say that we calculate that from uh sheet flow in pipe flow Basin flow it's 10 minutes so based on that 10 minutes and we compare that to the intensity storm gives us a flow in inches per hour that we have to design to and that's what we designed to than feel like he was able to address your question okay than my first question will be whether name is Mark Lewis 172 Old Short Hills Road so uh Mr fronte uh with regard to the current application when you came up with the designs and the adjustments that you're you're talking about today uh I assume you're familiar with some of the unique risks especially in this day and age uh with synagogues from a safety standpoint I I'm not sure I'm an expert to to to to speak about safety for a synagogue I but ask your question I apologize well I so you are kind of starting to answer it so did you take or have you taken any steps to consult with any Security Consultants about the safety risks of synagogues especially given the horrific events of October 7th and the I'm well aware I'm well aware of I'm well aware except that that's typically not a civil engineer prerogative if you will it's an operational decision that the applicant uh decides to uh to work with the architect or if the if the the sorry again uh to to answer sort of the question briefly we did not uh do any security analysis of the site in relation to the recent uh history that we we see regarding synagogues no so have you had any conversations with anybody affiliated with the kenter with regard to security risks in the neighborhood and for the synagogue no are you aware of any conversations with any law enforcement agencies the police reviewed the plan and commented on the plan what what police the police Milburn police mil police so no consultation though with no the FBI no consultation with other law enforcement that question's been asked and answer okay so if someone did come to you with safety concerns where there have been any type of threats because we know there's a a history now in New Jersey of bomb threats of shootings of protests are you aware of security measures you could take in the design of a synagogue uh not specific to synagogue I answer question are you talking about the storm water management or some if you're talking about are you talking about if you're talking about the design of the synagogue yes might that might be the architect or operational Witnesses I suspect I you're talking about because this is questioning for the civil engineer based on his testimony lighting sight you know the circulation Etc I want to make sure everybody understands the context of your question I frankly thought you were asking it in in connection with storm water management something related to what gentle no I mentioned October 7 I mention I heard everything I'm familiar with I'm familiar with it all um the wa to much the the um but uh but but I think the questioning has to be based on his testimony he's a Cil civil engineer he testified to those areas of expertise so and maybe I could be educated might it might be another witness maybe I could be educated do do civil engineers do any type of uh work in terms of reinforcing yes or putting in barricades Absolut yes of course so there are absolutely then go ahead ask about that the barricade so have you done that have you ever I've in my I've been around for a few years and part of my history I've I I I was able to I designed uh blast resistant structures I've designed hardening of structures over my career uh but in this particular case uh no because it was not required not required I believe last time or identified I the last time we spoke you mentioned that you had no experience with houses of worship I know that was that wasn't the question no not with respect to security no you do have experience with House Worship in a in the civil engineering context uh to me as I as I think testified the last time a a a school a house of worship uh from a site development perspective don't doesn't vary much there are no specific requir this was a line of questioning that was pursued the last year ask that it not be reer he please theorum again please we should self control the the uh the the um m chair please the the um if these are new questions based on new testimony that he provided this evening uh as opposed to Old testimony and old questioning that you've already done then the chair will I suspect allow you to proceed yeah within reason the chair has discretion totally appreciate it so you asked about Safety and Security and one of the questions I asked last time was whether he had experience with houses of worship going to his expertise in security he said that he thought he did about a year or so ago I asked him maybe you could find that out so I don't know did you go back to figure out whether you really have worked with the house of worship before as far as a synagogue of this of this type no uh but we've worked on I personally worked on many schools for disabled children uh schools for uh K we we just finished a a Gard school so from that perspective I feel well qualified to do the site plan for this for this house of worship you might be well qualified but nobody has asked you to do anything with regard to the security for this particular I've answered that question no the neighbor another question I have for you do you have any reason to believe that trees have already forward offic you're not faing that it's hard I wish you was sorry we talk to each other okay how are you m Rony my my question to you do you have any reason to believe that any of the trees you've referenced today have already been started to be planted on 165 old short hor world I don't have that information now okay would you be surprised if the trees were already starting to be planted uh when this application has not been decided on I'd be surprised yes okay one second here do you have any understanding of whether one Jefferson Road at any point is contemplated to be a part of this development I don't think that was something he testified to this evening oh did AB Sor I apologize we didn't discuss any surrounding properties except with respect to the set I I would think it would be relevant uh when would that become relevant in terms of the you're asking about what might be contemplated for surrounding properties his the his name the the property they already own and already operating it's not on this I mean you could answer but it's not the scope of mention it was it's nothing it's not part of the site plan I'll hold on for now thank you thank you other questions your name and address Christine b 15 Fair Terrace um may I ask you madam chairman a quick question before I start I have quite a number of questions that are very detailed to the engineering and um would for the for the efficiency of tonight's Forum would it be better if I just go through them quickly and they could respond later or I I just I don't want to like get stuck on it or if I'm getting too long just maybe let me know and give me heads off because I don't want to take a few minutes ask your questions and then um either guess we can allow him to let us know if we like to respond maybe I'll do like half because I just want you may want though I'm probably thinking the same thing that applicants council is if you if you go 20 to 30 questions it might be hard for him to answer your question maybe one at a time yeah okay all right now I just wanted to ask you I they're pertinent to the testimony he just gave of course absolutely 100% thank you so um so I wanted to ask I'm going to just focus on storm water um and Engineering that you spoke to um so I wanted to understand and you did speak to the solids that go into the bio retention basins um and I wanted to know how you were going to clean I know there's filters but I wanted to understand in detail how often you'll clean out those solids and how do you have um stops in place from an engineering perspective that they don't bleed into the environment or the underwater um you know um aquifers Etc because you know we're all sort of built on these Springs actually in this town I think you're asking Mr Fran I'm sorry I'm sorry Mr fr you stand up again per and answer her questions yeah so the if I heard it correctly the the question was how do you m maintain make sure that they're not uh being uh uh damaged by waste the bis and so forth yeah well it's not getting into the offers underneath well somebody else as well no it's a it's a great question the uh the storm water is conveyed via pipe in this case uh plastic pipe that uh from the cat Basin and the parking lots the water is collected and uh uh brought to the ba to the Basin whether it's the biob Basin uh to the bio Basin correct and and the reason for that as I indicated it's we're required to remove uh total suspended solids from the flow right so you have to kind just let answer the question so 80% so the so that that uh suspend this solids gets gets uh uh accumulated in the biobase it's collected there so if uh if in the in the future don't forget I said we we discussed it gets inspected so let's say if the the loading from the parking lot is such so high as far as suspended solids and primarily most of it it comes as uh dust that's carried by TR by cars especially during winter time with the the ice and the and the slush uh that gets trapped in the uh in the biob Basin so if the biob Basin doesn't as far as inspection starts not to function properly there there will be inspection ports clean out that you can inspect and clean out the the sand filter if the sand filter at some point in time gets so clogged with the with the sediments uh obviously uh it has to be then uh redone okay um in terms of um I understand why you're building a large Square you know retention Pond whatever you want to call it with grass aligning it um they are really um what I want to understand and actually maybe Martha can we in on this as well as you um there's so many large developments going on right now like we have huge developments it says coming online you have you know a bunch of you the Metropolitan not all these places particularly if you're doing something Manhattan right on a lot of you know I mean Acres use these retention basins and they are less expensive to construct I believe I might be wrong so is there a way that we can use possibly like 10 dry Wells or I don't know what the number would be you know allocated across the line so it's visually not and you can also then plant above the dry Wells and you can get a lot more you know coverage for people question well it's it's a little different than also you are testifying a bit which we're not this is the public com we haven't you in yet so if you could be succinct in your question and he could perhaps be succinct in his answer okay I'll try thank you for I me if I may just the quick answer is that dry Wells are we're not allowed to use dry Wells for anything above the two-year storm okay I got all right then I understand what you're saying now um will you be putting I might have missed this are you going to be putting a um chain link fence around them to make sure no one drowns okay there is yes and so will you be covering the chain link fence with trees so people can't see the chaining fence so it's less industrial looking well we are providing a an aluminum ornamental fence yeah I know you said that and uh which visually aesthetically it's it's it's not a a niore it's not it's not a chaining fence obviously uh we are providing as as I showed the uh uh land Landscaping plan and Shrubbery uh we didn't specifically designed to hide defense though okay thank you for letting me know um so the waste truck you talked a lot about that I'm assuming that's coming all the way in so it's going to be disruptive to somebody like on Madison Terrace for example you know kind of a lot of heavy equipment on Saturday morning at 6 amm versus doing curbside pickup uh we again as I testified it's private carding the scheduling is really up to the uh the operational side of the of the synagogue uh as time as far as what time they come in on site uh we can provide you so it's private pickup then I was basically informed that it's a private pickupy did we get a stipulation as to the timing when they wouldn't come we didn't I mean that's right um I'm gonna just jump over to the question um so on the light question I took some time actually to walk around some other religious institutions in town um the past couple weeks and you know it's over I believe it's Christ Church um off over off Highland and I was looking question yeah wait I'm sorry that question so my question is is that um you have the the you have 25 lights in the parking lot there I think you said between 10 and 12 feet off the ground on P little mini Pilots right um so you know that will do even if you show them it will give more light bleed off of the neighbors that particularly um are on Madison terrorist and so I was wondering would you consider or or have you looked into doing a 36 inch high light that's less you know like it's less blowing out and it's more diffused because you know that would make a big difference for people living behind it T beyond the the question is would you did you consider a 36 in instead of the 12 foot correct no but but the foundation for that question is to reduce spillage of light Madison correct the board Engineers report states that there will be no offsite light spage so the premise of the question is incorrect it it is incorrect because I mean I I know a lot about lighting we can't we can't and you can't testify yet that's fine fine it's fine I will not expert um have you consulted because I don't think there's any lighting experts have you consulted with a lighting designer or only with an engineer when looking at the lighting the uh our lighting plans are are we designed them internally with the help of the manufacturer of the light fixtures who is an expert in lighting design So based on that and we have the township requirements which are important that we have to meet we come up with with with a lighting design okay um you talked about the dark sky standards I I don't think that's a legal standard um so what I wanted to ask you about is there's different levels of Kelvin um 3000 is still on the blue spectrum and I was wondering if you go down to 2200 Kelvin would would you consider that or did you look at that to have a warmer light for the residential area no we uh basically uh use 3,000 which is General uh requirement that we always uh held to we did not design a lower uh a lower uh Kelvin as you stated no okay did you review um short Hill's code for lighting trespass before making these lighting plans yes well the Milburn right short was Milburn no I'm sorry Milburn correct yes because it's it's it's it's about light trespass very specifically and it's interpretive um okay I should have said that I'm sorry um so um you talked about proposing a sidewalk I'm I wanted to make sure it's on your side right um is it something that you feel that you would need to put a sidewalk on the other side or on parsonage like how you're going to deal with different attendees going down parsonage hill road for example that might live in the neighborhood it the the sidewalk that's on Ure road is existing right if you recall right and we were asked to uh uh upgrade it and we we agreed to uh we also uh discussed that the only existing sidewalk in the area is for on Parker there are no sidewalk that other than along our Eastern uh property line so based on that uh we felt that the neighborhood does does did not lend itself to sidewalks um when I don't know if this is a question for you so I oliz out of my stupidity but um in terms of building classification um because you probably know that because you've done schools and also um houses of worship is there a definition of like what a school is when you look at allocations of square footage so right now you're Square can I just finish my question you mean internal or external external internal I mean internal internal I think that's the architect yes yeah but it actually but it impacts the engineering land use as well so that's why I was putting for that's okay okay so the qu the question is right now the allocation looks appears and I might be wrong in saying this that um I think you had 8 8,000 foot allocated for worship and closer to 12 12,000 square foot allocated for classroom so it appears the allocation is more of a school structure and I was wondering like you know how you address you know the legal aspects of whether it's a classification as school or as a house of worship it's it outside the scope of his testimony okay I just legal aspects would be I think what you're probably talking about is is planning whether the use is a exactly condition a house of worship use as opposed to a school use or something and I suspect that might be something that I believe a planner is intending to testify on behalf of the advocate as well and we have one darn good one by me um he's not objecting uh so so the that might be but further questions regarding a couple more questions maybe about the site plan the engineer I'll make it quick I'm sorry I'll do tomor go I'll I'll you um so in terms of the trees I know that um you know you talked about I totally I'm not allow to make comment okay so in terms of the trees you know there's difficulty I mean you talked about a fund 26k to go to the town for the trees that you can't fit into the space because it's a lot of trees what I wanted to ask you in terms of like and I think that Frank touched upon this um you know you're you are cutting down some larger growth trees in terms of caliper and so most of the caliper standards you know that are required by our town are between three and four caliber which are very very Charlie ground trees basically um you know home depill specials so you know this is something for people living in in the area I guess would want to see if maybe you consider using a higher caliber tree yes they're expensive but for example a five caliber a six caliber tree is significantly taller and broader in terms of its Leaf foliage um and you ask me if they considered higher at higher calber which would I guess be a higher a taller tree at installation correct right so okay so that I know the SS we need to save for later very nuan I understand what you're saying but but it's questioning only now the advoc can say they intend to comply with the requirements of the ordinance okay um and then I think this goes back to the other gentleman's question and you may or may not be able to answer this have you been working on any additional properties um in that on that specific block um in terms of designs that would be affiliated with the center not no not affiliated with the center no thank you so much for your time and thank you for all the appreciate thanks thank you other questions good evening uh Evan Frankle six Park Road can I have your and talk uh secondarily uh we did say daylight savings on Sunday morning that clock is freaking me out okay good no please um I'm gonna Focus Fus also on security and I know you may not be an expert but I do think that the layout uh has some impact um what considerations have been made in the site designed to control unauthorized access uh and manage crowd control to answer that question uh the site plan has indicated we're not providing a perimeter fence fencing and gates to the property we are uh we are respecting the residential neighborhood that so we we're we're not trying to create a uh a fenced in compound so the answer your question is enough no you have not okay um how you you've indicated that you've moved the entry and the egress positions off of parsonage Hill correct correct so how does the property's entry and exit layout support secure access control including emergency access for First Responders or controlled access for the congregants of the hav uh uh sort of two-part question as far as the emergency vehicle Visa a fire truck we've considered that a uh a uh when you say considered it we designed for it corre tur templ ABS all right so if you can handle a a fire a lad truck of that magnitude you can handle an ambulance as I indicated uh so from that perspective emergency vehicles will have no problem accessing the site uh has the proximity of neighboring Residential Properties been taken into account and the placement and design of any security or containment features barriers secure entry and exit points surveillance coverage no uh what specific measures are in place to facilitate safe and quick evacuation to cred thread occurs well uh that's more of a uh from the building it's an architectural uh question that he'll answer uh the uh the site itself uh does not require that uh level of of design if you will um in the event of a large scale emergency evacuation how does the site design prevent or limit disruption to neighboring streets Properties or infrastructure do you know no um I think that's it for the questions thank you for your time thank you very much thank you I had no intention of speaking um Wendy prasher p r a s h k r and I live at 26 Park Road so I walk a lot um and I walk across the street onto that and you're directing questions Mr fr I am I just want to it's regarding the waste removal okay so very often I know that there there have been Bor Mitzvah at the high Center since they first infiltrated the neighborhood but um so there's garbage very often on the street um next to the sidewalk on Old Short Hills Road he little testifying but can you ask the question my question is how is there a way to stipulate to make sure that especially after an event that the garbage is removed within a certain amount of time so I understand this private garbage removal and I also understand that once this is done nobody has any control of anything so I would like there to know have ma'am you have to I think the question was asked there may be more questions let's let him or or coun the applicant answer the question I don't think this witness can stipulate us to that sort of thing we can certainly ask the rabbi as an operational question if that's something that's workable but I don't think that's within and and the rabbi will be testifying as to operations correct okay so it'll be another witness do you have any more questions this hi Bailey Lewis 172 Old Short Hills Road um I just need some clarification on the corner of parsonage and old Shore Hills Road um you talked about a dedicated right turn lane is that from is that parsonage going onto Old Short Hills Road or is that old Short Hills Road well I guess that would be a left or coming from the other direction like where is that dedicated right hand L as far as from uh from offsite from the public streets it was discussed that there was an easement and there was a dedication let I show you engineer that brought that up but no that's okay so I think he could respond to that that's okay if you're able to respond to that do you have any objection Council no okay so and the Mr fronte can correct me from they are not proposing a right turn lane my question was would they be agreeable to provide the easement should the county in the future want to add one it's my understanding that they are not proposing any changes to those curve lines okay and my response was we will comply with what the county requires of us that's under their make sure question it's kind of a two-part question is that relevant or is that um later than these planning comments that number number five under section three um it was lumped into the Forester report and the fire department report it said upon review of the property survey and site plan a RightWay encroachment has been identified at the northeast corner of the property with the cartway of parsonage Hill Road encroaches roughly 13 feet onto the site at the intersection of old short Hills Road further three utility poles are in this location are cited on the property the board planed recommends as a condition of any approval that an access utility easement or a RightWay dedication be recorded to cure the encroachment of the cartway where such dedication should provide sufficient clearance for 4 foot sidewalk and incorporate the utility polls as needed the applicant should relocate the proposed signage in this location to accommodate a minimum 10 foot setback from the relocated property line or the property line should not be reloc located it's very confusing the way the planner had said this 10 feet from the cartway to meet the intent of the standard I just need that to be clarified and is that still relevant based on the new site plans it's my report so um the the applicant has specified they'll be seeking to re remedy the encroachment with Essex County so that is a process that they're going through so that was the the beginning part of our comment was to remedy that situation and that's what they'll be doing with the county that is their roadway ddiction that air courtt way with respect to the sign relocation and this maybe where Mr fany can I I believe believe that the sign has been relocated uh you know pursuant to to meet the standard uh for the set back in the property l so it's noer um we were the intent at the end of this comment which is was a little confusing um was if should the sign be located less than 10 feet or you know they wanted closer it should at least be 10 feet from because the the road encroaches onto the site the sign should be at least 10 feet from that curb line hard so 10 feet off the edge of the road correct okay and is it still considered Mr can comment I believe that the sign has been relocated yeah where would that sign be located well we it's shown on our drawings and we had agreed to uh if we needed to relocate the sign based on what the county is going to say we we will do that so but the sign is shown on our joint so it's still in the same Corner 10 feet back yes and there's you're not going to cut any trees in that corner because there are corner there are trees right in that corner there are we we we stipulated that there's heavy vegetation in the that whole side of the of the both roads right you earlier testified you're not going to cut any of those trees in that corner so be cutting those trees if the sign was located 10 foot back in that corner we've located the sign so that we don't have to cut trees and it's still visible okay and it's still in the corner it's still in the corner yes okay but it's in an area where no trees will be cut as a result okay that was it thank you very much other questions okay hi H Jessica moris to South Beach Road hello um so if um if you find that the playground needs to be bigger based off of like Child Care standards is there room to make the playground bigger because I think it's 900 square feet you said allows for it's like 35 F feet per 35 square feet per child so that allows for 25 children so if there's more than 25 children that attend school is there room to make that playground bigger without taking away from the 105 parking spaces that are allow allotted to couple of questions uh the the first answer is that we will not uh reduce the amount of parking otherwise we will need a variance and we are not requesting a variance for parking so whatever new the size of the new playground we would have to incorporate on the site I can tell you from uh uh projects that I've done schools to stagger the the students so that you want to limit the amount of students in in the playground so not all the students are there at the same time but again the architect will define those requirements for us so up to now 900 square feet which we've accommodated there is a some room to grow on the site without impacting impervious or uh or parking right because I I mean I have kids have pre who have attended preschools and it's it's very important but also I think after 2013 according to the do you have another question so there is so you do have room to expand if there's more than 25 students yes Limited I'm here I'm Andrew cap uh 18 Madison Terrace um was it was it the was there an alternate spot for the playground considered or is that the only spot that's available we yes we considered two other locations One location that's operationally probably preferred but that would put the playground on the front yard and the township does not require does not front uh playgrounds in the front yard so the other location would have been uh next to the entrance of the of the school on the north north side but we chose this location because it's for the children it's better to be somewhat uh segregated from the uh from the operations of the property to this location so you wouldn't you wouldn't be able to put it's Town ordinance would but it's also uh required because of this school that you have the playground it's uh do you know the answer it depends from from what I'm familiar with in the New Jersey uh education requires playgrounds for schools prer if you know please answer yes is just a curiosity no no the answer is yes but uh I I also familiar with schools they use parking lots as playgrounds and are the is the playground planed to be lit separately from the parking lot no and I guess we'll talk about the operational whether it will be used at night during operations portion okay um and then you moved the driveway closer to my property line but the parking lot itself did not move from the original drawing no thank you sorry my voice is gone Jean past neck 342 Hobart Avenue uh for the engineer did you just find the link use and Engineering to the existing deed restrictions for this property I'm not aware of deed restrictions for the property and just again the question should be toward the testimony that was given tonight to and and if you could get the microphone a little closer in light of your voice know you said losing it um the voice is this is this your second you never know how a record is going to read later on so I want to make sure it's clear is this your second or third adjustment of the plans for this project it's uh we're in I think revision three uh yes it's part of the the design process yes okay and um was there a reason why the playground wasn't included in an earlier version it was not in the program that was given to us no okay and can you confirm that's the number of students that was up uh uh they the next week witness with was testified an operational I cannot tell you the number of students um do you know if there will be any buses you said there won't be any now but could there be some in the future have you considered that operational question okay and do you know if there are any trees that have been taken down at this point other than if there were any trees removed well there was de uh the site uh structure that was on the property was de demolished uh whether the trees were uh taken down during that period um I can't can't tell you any other questions good evening my name is Jeffrey Phil 11 Alexander Lane Short Hills New Jersey just want to follow up based on a statement we just heard that this is the third proposal just make sure you're asking a question we just heard this was the thing someone explained to changal I think he said the third version of the design third revision third revision that means there had to be an original Vision can you please tell us a change between the first revision and the second revision which I think the second revision is probably the August application because there was it I believe you attended a technical Review Committee in June correct based on that meeting what changes went to the first proposal which is really the second proposal which is the application in August and the third is what we're hearing tonight can you tell us really what the change was between the first and the second if I may I don't see the relevance of that question it's not ultimately what we're proposing it's not ultimately what the board is considering and deciding upon it's it was an interim revision months ago I I don't see the value of delving into that in any I mean I think the purpose of the design Review Committee which happens prior to anybody at this board seeing it is to improve the design and to be more consistent with the plan and the vision for the town so I think what we're seeing is hopefully improved if Mr fron is able to comment on it uh allow we had a we had an excellent uh TRC technical review meeting and comments were provided to us which we had taken into consideration and are reflected in the plan specifically for example as an example the township uh professionals wanted a a two-lane exit from the site onto o sher's Road to facilitate the Left End turns and right end turns and and that was a a good Comon that we incorporated but there's no changes about the size or impervious surface areas we tweak the the site all the time so there was minor tweaking but no major in other words the site plan presented at the TRC doesn't other than the driveway that I just mentioned is very little changes to it all right the other one is based on a comment that was made by our um Township engineer she described our town as a fully developed community and you were talking by your experience how many schools or or synagogues have you ever designed in a fully developed Community I think there's been a series of questions about how many synagogues he's designed in the past and he that twice now two different resp about the nature of the communities that you were well I most of the the schools that have designed recently are all in very wellestablished communities and uh similar to this one so they are fully developed that's probably probably more than this site this town thank you anybody have further questions can I go again if I um you can ask one more question because I understood this is your first but we're not opening it for whole second round but I I do want to be sensitive I understand that you're you're learning the process and I want to encourage I just I'm not gonna invite everybody to come back fair enough I'll make it quick uh Su 2068 old sh Road uh the present parking or the present uh driveway does it have a provision to take any buses inside the the answer I've answered that question we're not designing for buses is there is there a possibility of buses to come in we don't believe so but we have a separate witness that will testify operationally the details of how the site will function okay so maybe maybe I can ask this question to the uh civil engineer is is there a the present driveway can this uh take any buses to come in oh you're asking if it could accommodate yes if it physically could accommodate a bus the bus can come in and can get pared there in the present time the latest plans we only received today I haven't had a chance to check Mr Fry could you resp I can answer that question will there be buses again there's typically two types of buses the larger longer buses and the the smaller buses the we've designed the the driveway for a large fire Tru ladder truck so based on that a a a a typical small uh school bus will have no trouble accessing the site it's for a matter of fact a lar just comparing the dimensions of a larger a typical larger school bus to the ladder truck I would uh uh it's my professional opinion that that bus would be handled in on the site okay and uh if a bus has to come in how many parking spots a bus will take none because it's not designed for bus parking okay thank you any questions new members of the public okay we are at almost 10:30 pm is there anything further that we would need to do with this witness like maybe we can address that you've completed the direct examination uh and we've had the public questioning of the civil engineer you're uh so we're done with the civil engineer uh uh the uh your next witness is who traffic consult traffic TP okay and I suspect that might take more than a few minutes yes yeah for sure to to cover the area uh certainly um I'm just wondering if there would be any benefit of any sort of brief overview uh I hate to squander even a few minutes if it's available to us what is the uh cut off time it's generally 10:30 yeah and which we're at 10:27 so I can't allow the last meeting to go longer because we were sort of holding it so that one went a bit longer so yeah we looking to to close it but I think to accommodate if it's something that can be done in five minutes and then or so and then he's going to be back again uh you know but what utility might that have we're not going to tell the applicant how to present the can you give us a little taste sure please do so and well I'll get you up here we'll get you sworn in we'll get you qualified and we have our independent traffic engineer here as well who as I understand it will be back next week as well Madam chair can I just one house keeping because there was something that was mentioned but I just want clarification from the engineer um he said the operational side of the synagogue I'm assuming is the one facing the neighborhood or is it the left side excuse me can you you just wanted to clarify you mentioned the operational side of the synagogue and you wanted to know what you meant by that well it's the operation of the synagogue do you mean do you think he mean do you mean the use of the synagogue or she thought you meant a side what did you mean by the word side the use okay thank you in relation to the playground uh yes you well you answered that question but mine was you referenced aside of the actual property itself the operational side and the operational side is the back side of this property no no I didn't mean that again clarification thank you madam chair question so given given the time now we are at 10:30 would it maybe make more sense to have this next witness yeah I would continue interrupted at the next session so it's not to you know have to break things up for the public and I understand I think why don't we get the their um professional sworn in so that we can expedite going forward that way he can just be yeah just to keep can you just state your name and spell for the record uh Andrew vishio vizen Victor i c IO and address business address is fine 92 Park Avenue Rutherford New Jersey and please raise your right hand do you swear to God or Refirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do okay and Mr Fisher yes I I swore you Inn earlier there we go please proceed um andw could you just briefly acquaint the board with your educational background and professional experience pleas absolutely I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey my license is active and in good standing um I've been practicing in the industry for over 13 years I hold a bachelor's and master's degree uh uh both in civil engineering from Georgia Tech um uh I have worked um approximately half of my career in the public sector previously as a director of traffic engineering for the city of Jersey City and I uh have been accept accepted before numerous land use boards um as an expert in traffic engineering um uh throughout the state of New Jersey gentl we'll be hearing you as a traffic engineer and you are responsible for the preparation of the traffic documents for this that is correct thank you man is it willing to accept this gentleman's credentials as an expert thank you it is now 10:31 um I don't know how much you want to launch in and begin uh I guess I can leave that to you um we had additional questions now we SW him in I don't know how far you you would like to to do you anticipate an overview and an estimate of how long it'll take would you be able to give a minute overview yes I'd like to do that okay and and the board will extend the time it's time for this evening till 10:45 yes I'm asking do we have to vote on that uh Mo a motion second and and all in favor we do it we have a motion I no I'm not making proced yes that would be the motion second and all in favor to to formally extend our time Beyond 10:30 to 10:45 10es a okay no second let me ask you this with the next hearing being a special meeting is and I assume that's already been noticed pursuing to open public meetings Act is there uh any ability to um discuss or consider um relaxing that 10:30 cut off time at that special meeting um we could consider it as a board however I'm I'm also concerned after three hours of of our undivided attention that just we're it's it's late in the evening and many of us have full-time jobs in the day that we just we won't be as sharp and won't be able to absorb the information we just want to make sure the quality of the conversation is strong for you to um we could consider that potentially but it wouldn't be than okay I believe the chair is saying certainly you can make the request again right time um okay so that said we we will be as you alluded to we are going to be carrying this application with no further required notice to a special meeting which is occurring next Wednesday which we've scheduled with the goal of trying to allow this application to continue uh you know in good Fai um on November 13th 7:30 pm. the same location here Milburn Town Hall anything further yeah not the and I recognize counselor as you know that there's a 95 day period of time for uh under the uh time to act Provisions for the board if my calculations are correct that would end on or about December 2nd um we obviously have one more meeting uh that we've as a board uh uh specially arranged for a notice Etc uh to accommodate the applicant uh I don't believe we certainly don't have one scheduled before December 2nd a as I sit here right now uh so would the applicant be willing to provide a modest extension of time Beyond December 2nd uh for the board to act on this application um at this juncture I'd like to reserve the final decision on that until we see how things progress at the special meeting okay that's the within the right of the applicant to do so since we do have a meeting scheduled uh so we can uh address that again and certainly will uh on the 13th 13th 13th so and and I can certainly say it's not the applicant's intent uh and it would be fruitless anyway to somehow try to play a shell game or play games with I mean the the deadlines are very clear uh and it's a nobody's best interest to uh obus skate them or play games with them but by the same token the applicant does have a very strong interest in seeing this case processed and processed efficiently and as Mr Warner does correctly point out there is a required time frame within which the board is supposed to act and there are options that the applicant could take options that the board can take uh but uh uh uh certainly it's at least my opinion the board has accommodated and move things uh reasonably if not more than reasonably uh uh for the applicant to proceive what this application including scheduling a special meeting dat this month I appreciate councelor you recognizing that as well in the affirmative so thank you for sure and noticing same so uh uh so I I would certainly uh hope if not anticipate if not expect that the applicant would be reasonable as uh as reasonable as the board is uh being in in accommodating the applicant with these hearings and moving things forward as best we can um uh so that everyone has a full and fair opportunity to to process uh and through the posard judicial proceedings uh to have this application this this these proceedings play out uh and everyone had gets an opportunity to present their testimonial and documentary evidence make public comment Etc um I I hope if not expect that the applicant will afford the same courtesies to the board uh and recog and provide a reasonable time frame for the board to hear this case properly and hear everyone and decide this case properly in my opinion it would be in the best interest of everyone including the applicant to do so so I hope I'm correct in my expectations yeah and I would yeah and we're certainly appreciative of of the board affording us a special meeting next week we look forward to taking full uh full advantage of that opportunity and we also I think hope that in that hope there will be a continuing Spirit of of cooperation and if if there needs to be consideration of additional possible special meetings in order to to get this done and get it done in in a timely way we would hope that board would continue to remain open-minded and and flexible in that regard the board will be open-minded the board remain openminded and and reasonable at all times a process question thank you a process question that never get out um you can ask a brief question we're looking to I think a lot of people don't fully grasp what what I think she said yes what's the question yeah so I think there's a lot of people that don't grasp the process right question is at what point you know we get the opportunity to cross-examine the witness but I heard you when you first explained the process I thought there was an opportunity after each witness to make an objection to make a statement on record at the very end of the proceedings very quickly if I may M Out Chair because we want you to everyone understand as best as possible uh it's a and it's pursuant to the municipal land use FLW and and open public meeting act other statutes um essentially the way it works again is is after each witness it doesn't have to be after each witness but it may be after each witness um uh board members board professionals members of the public question that witness not testimony people are always going to have to say a little something in order to get the context of the question but within reason uh and then uh when all the witnesses are done uh then members of the public uh assuming there are no Witnesses uh expert or otherwise from from the public other than members of the public make a comment uh your comment is uh just as important important as any other witness uh so that's why I swear you wi that's why it's testimony not just comment and that is essentially once at the end after the applicant has presented their entire case all their Witnesses each of whom we will all including members of the public have an opportunity to question so we have more flexibility at the end to corre raise exactly to make to to make your public comment SL testimony yes and did you say that we could bring a witness yes it it it it's it's up to me it's up to members of the public I mean the the the board it's a quasi judicial proceeding and if appropriate Witnesses are brought by the applicant or or others uh then the board will consider uh testimony from the appropriate Witnesses quick question I know we were talking about the 95 day rule if for some reason the applicant doesn't agree to an extension which would be unfortunate given that we didn't hear them the past two meetings when they requested not to be heard irrespective of that if they hold steady to that deadline is the board able to deny the application on the basis of the proceedings not having been fully completed and us not having heard from all of the the witnesses Etc the the the the uh and again this is hypothetical I don't expect it to happen I expect the applicant to be just as reasonable as the board of course so but in the event in the hypothetical if I may I'm sorry in the hypothetical uh there are mechanisms that if the applicant were to try to get what's called an automatic approval which the court may or may not Grant by virtue of the 95 day period expiring um uh uh uh and I don't expect that they the board would the applicant would do that but if they did that under the circumstances not withstanding how reasonable the board has been and will continue to be uh then then the board can do things such as a dismissal without prejudice so as to avoid an order aut atic approval but again these are things that hypothetically can happen I don't expect they will happen uh certainly the board will continue to be reasonable and I have no reason to believe the applicant W continue to be reasonable and we would hope that if you know things proceed along efficiently and within the rules that hopefully would be largely a moot point a non issue exactly is it a procedural question it's procedural absolutely if I have specific questions of the board members in terms of like your D diligence as a board member like issue can can iish Sor can I do I email that to you no no emails open public meeting act everything must take want to finish my question please okay good so do I approach the bench do I tell you in the beginning because there's no room to fit that in so I wanted to understand yeah the the the nothing takes place outside the open duy uh noticed open public meetings that we have have uh and uh when it's time to question a witness if you feel the compulsion to ask a question of a board member uh ask that question I may uh try in from a legal perspective as is my job and and see and and may or may not be something that's appropriate to ask of a board member unfortunately when generally the questions have to be of the witnesses no I I understand but I I tried to ask I wanted to ask a question of the board member but you specifically told me I can only ask the witness so what should I do again if if you I don't know why you would want to ask a board member and I'm not sure that it'd even be appropriate to ask a board member question the board members are volunteers serving the board and they do their due diligence there's no the the questions are of the applicants Witnesses so I can't ask a question could she answer a question of eile as the secretary no you're saying you can't let me ask a question I just wanted to ask if you hire um any professionals that were not Township employees and not their um CL c yeah yeah we we we we did if I may Madam chair Mr Fishinger the independent traffic consultant was retained by the board uh to in light of the complexity and the importance of the traffic and uh engineering and and parking testimony of of Mr pedo Miss Callahan myself we're not employees of the municipality either as far as I understand I apologize Miss cah is I I just I just wanted to ask I mean did you did you like hire also like separate engineer like a full separate engineer besides Miss Callahan no no Miss Miss Callahan is representing the board okay so you did not thank you okay well one final question that made me realize uh if for some reason we wanted to get a storm water an outside storm water management expert to review whether we had the storm sore capacity to handle any overflow is that something the board can do and if so at what point would that be appropriate for the board to make that request mark would you respond not from the legal perspective but what would be the right time to do that it would have been quite similar to the time that we brought Joe fishing that your understanding too well I think uh we already had the storm water testimony from the engineer and our engineer of representing the board uh and when I say representing the board they're like a jury they decide she facilitates as we as all the board professionals do facilitate the boards making an informed decision I believe we did have testimony of the storm water report that none of us had received so in light of that I would think found how could we have known in advance whether it would be necessary to get an independent expert or not since we were not provided with the report I think this the management report wasn't wasn't provided in an official packet think it was just the maintenance weed is that correct re large report that was not given management we receiv this we received this in the interim meting posted on the website the storm the storm water management report and the maintenance plan were both submitted by the applicant right many months ago I think it came to light at our last Hearing in September that the maintenance plan was available on the municipal website I don't believe for whatever reason that internally the management report was made available online I don't know if my understanding was that was beated or not to the board M yeah I think I think there was a glitch in there because there the the cover page looked very similar so I think that they they might have been in she didn't circulate it until after after the first but but since that time well before this meeting was circulated okay so again we've addressed thorm Water Management I I wouldn't disagree with Miss Callahan that certainly if if that was something that was desired the issue you know would be raised before we concluded the testimony I think it's now the issue if you had any questions about it yes so if a member of the public wanted to bring their own experts they're welcome to do so again the members of the public are are are free to bring witnesses as I said and and we can and address that with the applicant when if and when that happens you you don't you don't only have to testify yourself uh you can bring Witnesses if if if they're pertinent and qualified experts or what have you okay thank you nothing I said there you would disagree with Mr LaVine certainly not it was all correct thank you correct I agree with it so hopefully I move to adjourn we'll be back next Wednesday do we have a second all in favor B a yeah it would have helped us understand