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Hey folks, let's get going here. >> If you need a chair in the back, grab them off the rack. Uh if you need to see unfortunately this screen has to stay here so like position yourself if you're interested in the case. In accordance with section five of

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the open public meetings act chapter 231 public law 1975 be advised that notice of this meeting was made by posting on vulcan board of town hall and serving the official designated newspapers a list of the meeting dates annually indicating that this meeting will take place at the Melbourne Bu uh board of

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education center building at 7 p.m. on April 27th, 2026. >> David Granford >> here. >> Regina Truit >> here. >> Here >> vice chair Gary Rosen >> here.

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>> Here. I'll do one memorialization this evening to cover first calendar 404225 at 52 Wellington. Who's eligible to vote on that? >> David Gina Beth. Right. Okay. Uh, any

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corrections or changes? If not, can I have a motion? >> I'll make a motion to approve calendar 4042-25. >> Thank you. A second. I'll second. >> David Bradford. >> Yes. >> Truett. >> Yes. >> That's all. >> Yes. >> Rosen. >> Yes.

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>> Yes. Okay. We have a packed house tonight. I see a lot of esteemed professionals in the crowd. Um, >> did I make a little >> Yeah. >> Go ahead. >> Parenthetically. So, I can't remember the last time we've had this many lawyers and professionals for a board of

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adjustment meeting. And I'm taking this opportunity to do some sort of self-promotion. So, the LAN use section of the bar association is holding a cocktail reception this Thursday night. I'm entirely serious. From 6:00 to 9:00

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p.m. at a place called Harvest Moon in New Brunswick. Um, the reason why I'm mentioning it is that we have a number of esteemed members of the bench, a bunch of judges who are actually going to be in attendance. And this particular

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program is geared towards not just land use attorneys, but also land use professionals, engineers, architects, planners, traffic consultants. And the goal is for these judges to provide a little bit of inside baseball information as to what they're looking

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for when professionals are providing sworn testimony before land use boards and to also give some uh tips to land use attorneys. Um we think it's going to be a great program and I strongly encourage all of you lawyers, land use professionals to attend. If you want

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some information, you can reach out to me via email tomorrow. Thank you. Okay. Um, so my point is, let's keep it moving tonight, folks. Okay. We got seven applications to cover here. I'd like to get to everyone because we're packed going forward. I am juggling the

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schedule this evening. We do have uh six voters tonight. So, if you have a D variance, keep that in mind. If you want to change when you get in front of us because you are afraid of getting in the end zone, let us know right away and we will send you to another date. Okay? Otherwise, that's what you got this

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evening. If you have a D variance, you're going to have to get 56. Um, first up this evening, we're going to do calendar 407426, Little Club Tennis Center at 60 Lyndon. Come on down. >> Thank you so much. I will try to Before

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we do that, uh, Chris, let's um let's swear in our zoning officer, Eileen Dav. Eileen, please raise your right hand. Can you saw me swear affirm the testimony you're going to give tonight and uh throughout the proceedings involving this matter and other matters. Um is the truth whole truth and nothing

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but the truth? >> Yes. >> And lastly, we will not hear new testimony after 10:30 this evening. >> Great. Um thank you uh chair, members of the board, councelor. I will have it on my calendar as tenative for Thursday. I'll try to be there. >> That shouldn't just be ten.

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I'll try to not >> It's good to see everyone. Um, for the record, my name is Chris Murphy with the law firm of Murphy Schiller and Wils here on behalf of the applicant. Um, we're here tonight on an appeal under NJSA405-7A. Um, on December 15th, 2025, my client submitted a zoning permit application in

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connection with the renovation of an existing clubhouse at the Wyoming Club located at 60 Lynden Street. On January 7, 2026, the project zoning officer denied that application, stating that the application is a non-conforming use in a residential district requiring zone

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approval. It cites no ordinance section, identifies no dimensional or use uh deficiencies, and specifies no required variance or approval. Um, we're here tonight asking this board to reverse that denial, confirm that no variance or site plan approval is required, and to direct issuance of that zoning permit.

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Um, as many of you know, the Wyoming Club is a Milbourne institution was founded in 1899 that have been operating at this location since around 1910. The clubhouse that we are here to discuss tonight was built around 1925. This is a lawful uh pre-existing non-conforming

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use in the in the R5 zone. This operated continuously at this location for over 115 years, predating the current zoning ordinance by decades. Um the proposed renovation is limited in replacement in kind work including removal and replacement of roof structure,

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replacement of a single uh door with French doors, interior uh reconfiguration of a bathroom and kitchenette and the removal of a nonorinal uh front portico and a roof canopy on that patio. Um the club is not asking to expand, intensify or change

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the use in any way. It is asking only to renovate deterior a deteriorating structure so it can continue to serve its historic purpose. As you will hear tonight from our project architect, the numbers tell the story. The gross floor area is being decreased. The building footprint and lot coverage are being

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reduced. The existing front setback non-conformity is being eliminated. There is no height increase. There's no change to parking access or drainage. Every measurable dimension the proposed condition either complies with or improves upon the existing conditions. And we have two professionals that are

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here to testify tonight, including Carolyn Young, who is our our architect and our professional planner, um, Michael Landama. Before I get to my professionals, I do want to for the record just lay out a few legal arguments um, for the for building this

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record. So, first, as a threshold matter, the board should be aware that NJSA 405D-18 requires the zoning officer to approve or deny a zoning permit within 10 days of the proceed of a completed application. If the zoning officer fail fails to act, the application is deemed approved by operational law. This

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application was filed on December 15, 2025. The denial was issued on January 7, 2026, counting for weekends and the holidays as approximately 14 business days, 4 days beyond the statutory window. The applicant preserves the argument that the permit was deemed approved before the denial was ever

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issued, rendering the denial. uh while this procedural issue may in fact be this positive um we proceed with substantial substantive appeal uh provide the board with a complete record and uh respectfully request the board address this issue opponent's findings.

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Um second uh we think there was a lack of specificity within the zoning denial of the zoning permit. Um there's no ordinance cited there's no no v deviation or var uh variance um cited as part of that. um we think that it is deficient on its face and should be

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overturned. Um next, the applicant has a legal right to continue the non-conforming use on the property. Section 605 of the township's development regulation and zoning ordinance expressly permits continuation of any existing use, building or structure, even if non-conforming and municipal land use law guarantees the

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same right. The Wyoming Club has operated this location since 1910, predating the existing zoning by decades under both the ordinance and the statute. It has a vested right to continue. The use is not changing. No D1 variance is required. The use is not expanding or intensifying. All

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dimensional metrics decrease. No D2 uh expansion of a non-conforming use variance is required. Fourth, the proposed renovation does not extend or increase the existing nonconformity. The township ordinance permits additions and repairs to non-conforming structures

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without a variance provided that the work does not quote extend or increase any existing nonconformity. The testimony in the plans will establish tonight that the gross floor error is being decreased. The footprint is being decreased. Coverage is being decreased. The front yard nonconformity uh setback

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is being eliminated. Height is not changing. No existing nonconformity is extending or increasing in any respect. And there's no C variance that's being triggered. Lastly, I will say that that the section 301.60B of the township's redevelopment uh

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excuse me, development regulation and zoning ordinance provides that building alterations that do not involve increase in the required numbers of off streetet parking spaces or additional gross floor area are site plan exempt. This renovation does not increase the gross floor area. It decreases it does not

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increase the required parking. There is no parking there. We've never been on the site. Um, in light of that, we believe this this pro this proposed renovation is site planning staff. I I do want to put on the record and just ask the board and the board attorney, um, we are here tonight on a very specific issue, whether the zoning

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permit application was improperly denied and sent to the zoning board. We're we're not here to talk about a 2024 application that was submitted that included the demolition of the building. We're not here to talk about the Historic Preservation Commission

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approval in 2024 for that same project. We understand that if this board approves this, excuse me, issues this uh zoning permit, an additional Landmark Commission review will be required in connection with these alterations and renovations. We are here on a very

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specific issue and we're not we're not here to talk about the tennis courts. We're not here to talk about storm water. We're not here to talk about any of that. We're here simply to talk about whether this project does not require zoning board review. Um so with that, I'd like to make swear my architect and

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and do a short presentation. >> That's fine. Uh also make sure qualify everyone might come up as well. >> Absolutely. Caroline There's enough professionals in here. >> Thank you so much. Okay,

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>> hold on. >> Swear to do it. >> Just raise your right hand, please. You swear from testimony about to give him today's proceeding be truth the whole treatment by the truth. >> Yes. >> You just state your name for the record, spelling your name. >> Carolyn Young N. >> Thank you.

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>> Great. Uh Carolyn, chair, are we okay with swearing her and was she sworn? Just give me your sworn name, but please give me your qualifications for the for the record. >> Uh Carolyn Young architect. My office is in Marstown, New Jersey. Welcome to Washington Street. Um I've been

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practicing state licensed architect since 1989. Um testified before many boards across the state and before this board on occasion for the years. Uh my educational background is

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>> Thank you. Please proceed. Right, Caroline, you you prepared the plans that were submitted as part of the zoning permit application? >> Yes. >> Great. For the benefit of the board, can you just walk uh the board and the board members through what we're proposing as part of this um application? >> Excuse me. This is D1.

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>> This has previously been submitted. So, this is not unless we want to mark it as an exhibit. >> No, we don't we don't need to mark it as >> because it was previously submitted. But why don't we just identify um to Mr. reference this point the title of what

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you're going to be presenting and the date of it. >> Sure. So, this is the architectural site plan and site data um proposed first floor plan Z-1. The date is

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1111 2025. So, it is Z1 that you're putting, >> right? But I I see that there's a date I have a date 122 on my Z1. >> So both I'm going to show to help you guys. Right here,

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>> both right here and also up here on Z1 says 122. Um and it looks like 202 is also 1225. Is there another one? >> Um, not sure. >> Okay. Well, can I see that?

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>> So, yeah. So, >> there's it looks I mean obviously there's coloring on that one. coloring on this one, but I'm more concerned we'll get to the coloring in a second about the date is to make sure that everyone's looking at the same. >> Yes, absolutely.

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>> Does everybody on the board have 12 too? >> Um I think it was just a later printing. >> So well, what about the fact that and I think we're going to have to mark this because it looks like there are certain areas that are shaded. I did that today

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for the purpose of >> So this is this wood market is an exhibit. We'll call it >> polarized architectural rendering. >> Okay. All right. Yeah. Uh A1 >> Z1 >> Z1. Well, I don't know. A we're gonna is

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A1 for identification. This is a set of two of two architectural plans. Correct. >> Yes. And what date do you want to use? >> Didn't you mark this today? Can we mark it today?

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>> 427 >> 26. >> Just so we we're all clear, this is the same plan you're reviewing. It was printed today with colorized emphasis. >> Okay. And Miss Young, in terms of the information that's set forth on the zoning table, um you believe that that

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is the same just so we can all follow along that the information provided that's on the zoning table of the plan that was submitted dated uh December 2nd, 2025. >> Yes. Nothing there has changed. Correct. >> Y >> okay. Um, I mean, Chris gave you a very

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brief summary verbally of what we're doing and this is the drawing to support what what we're renovating. Um, if you're all familiar with the club, been there a long time. Um, the building I think was originally a um Sears type of

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building and moved on to the site. um over the years. I think the back part was an addition at some point in time and clearly the existing front section was an addition. It looks like it's probably from the 50s. Um we are

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proposing to take off this front section of the building, which is what I've colored on the um drawing for the first floor plan. Um it currently acts as a kitchenet and toilet rooms. it is in

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very poor shape. Um it also is a nonconforming portion of the building. It extends into the front yard setback. Um in addition to that we are taking off a side section of the building that similarly is in very to conditionally

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constructed um almost shedlike construction that is not of any um not of any use and really doesn't add any desire to the building. So we're proposing to take that off. Um

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those two areas are being removed. The rest of the building, the footprint of the building is staying in its existing configuration uh volume, math, building configuration and shape. The plan up

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here in the upper part of the drawing illustrates that we will be constructing new bathrooms, two toilet rooms, and a small kitchenet area in what is currently this back area of the existing building. That's all interior renovation

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work. Um that's satisfying needs for the for the building to support the tennis courts with toilet rooms and small kitchenet. Um the rest of the building stays in its existing configuration as an open plan um for tennis clubhouse

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related uses. Um the chart, the zoning chart on the right illustrates some of the changes that are um created with the the removal of these spaces. The existing front of the building uh which is currently non-conforming front yard

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setback will be by the removal of this the new front of the building this existing wall will create a conforming setback. So that'll be a reduction elimination of a variance. Um and the two areas that we're proposing to take

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space away reduces the overall building coverage on the property uh by by a reduction as well. Um we are proposing to add a roof covering at what will be the front door at this line of the

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building. Um that is a conforming roof covering according to the zoning ordinance. Um it's a 24 inch projection. Uh so that is um conforming and um

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uh and then the rest of this will just become as front yard for the building. Um all these changes are enabled on this site plan on the lower right of the drawing. We have an existing nonconforming

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sideyard um which is an existing condition that is unchanged. it is not being uh increased in any way. Um it's existing no change. If anything we are making it

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slightly less because again we're taking off the front section of the building so that the the length of the nonconforming side yard is being reduced. Um and the second page C2

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is showing you um the bottom half of the page the elevations the architectural elevations of the existing building. Um the bottom drawing is the current front elevation and this section here is the

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shed roof area that we're removing. Um and then you are seeing the east side elevation with the other sort of shed structure that we're taking off and um

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and you're seeing the rear elevation which again shows a different view of that shed structure and you're seeing the right side elevation which shows the front dead structure. So, we're really removing shed structures and bringing it back to um the cable roof bellshaped

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foundation of the building. Um the choice to renovate this building will have structural repairs. Um we will be putting a new roof on the building. Um it's structurally sound. The existing structure is in poor shape, but nothing

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will change. The building height will not change. Everything about the roof will go back in kind to what it currently is and then from there we will just be renovating um exterior materials, siding, windows and so forth.

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And that really is the scope. >> Great. Uh chair I have no direct questions. Any questions for the board? >> Any questions? I have I don't Maybe this for planner or for

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some business of the club, but are the changes that are being proposed in your view um would they enable or not enable an intensification of the use of the property? >> No. >> No. No. You're reducing the size of the

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building. You're reducing the interior usable areas of the building. Um you're reducing the habitable space. Um you're adding a little bit of lawn. Um there is no nothing is increased. Everything is

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reduced in size, habitable area, volume. >> Um I'm going to ask it another way. Is there a membership currently? >> Is there a membership? >> Is there membership to the club? Currently, are there people that come to the building? Currently, >> the building has not been occupied for

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the last three years because of concerns with structure. They've had a porta john um at the tennis courts um as facilities for people playing tennis >> since three years. And prior to that there were people using the building.

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>> Yes. Since 1925. >> Since 1925. And a robust membership or not? I don't know if it's a membership or just a or community organization. Am I actually not sure? >> It's a nonprofit organization. >> No. Okay. The people belonged to it. Paid dues. >> Yes. It was a club. And then three years

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ago that ended. >> They sold it to the the prior club sold it to the current owners that are also own the little club. >> Okay. And would the anticipation be with once these renovations are done that there would be members again or usage

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again? >> There is current usage of the tennis courts. It is an active tennis facility. >> But specifically the building will would the hope be that >> yes the membership. >> Yes. >> Okay. Do you know how many we can bring up our

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>> Okay, thanks. >> Any other questions? >> I just have um a question for Eileen. So um with regard to uh the denial of the zoning permit, I think it's important to place on the record um what the thought

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was in terms of having this come before this. I think the I guess the you know if and down kind of scenario I was not 100% sure if this road to the level of an expansion I

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think not going to be fine and I just think is a better decision this >> so there is no I mean to your knowledge there's never been a request of this board adjustment for um what's called a

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certific cificate of non-conforming under section 68 of municipal land. Correct. >> Okay. And prior to this matter coming before the board, has the tennis the word of tennis club come before the board for other relief whether it's the board of adjustment or planning board to

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your >> not. So there was no resolutions that were submitted um on behalf of the applicants with regard to this request for zone. Thank you. Any other questions from the

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board? Any questions from the audience uh regarding testimony you just heard? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Come on. Where are you in? >> So, just identify yourself and your >> My name is

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What's your name? >> Mhm. Last name is Sh. I live at 57 Chestnut Street behind the club itself. Um, first of all, I can read the speech I had. >> Questions?

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>> And just so we're clear, there's going to be an opportunity once we get to public comment for you to make a speech or make any comments. You're going to be sworn in just like any other member of the public would be. This is just for questions of this particular witness. >> Sure. So, can you show me where the

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portico is that's being demolished? That is >> uh There is no portico being demolished. There's a shed across. >> Why would they say that a portico was being demolished? >> I did not say a port. >> Not you. >> I'm not an expert. So, >> yeah. No, that's why I'm I'm very

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confused by the drawings. >> You're allowed to ask for clarification purposes whether um in fact is >> um this is the shed roof across the front of the building is being demolished. It's shown in the front

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elevation, the right side elevation, and the left side elevation. This is the second shed area that's uh behind the main mass which is being demolished. It's shown on the left side elevation as well as on the rear elevation.

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>> And so there's no portico. That's >> the portico is being added. >> Added. Okay. So that's wrong. Um, now these this area here that's being demolished, >> um, how many square feet does that add to the patio?

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>> Um, it adds, uh, it adds about 85 square feet. >> That's considerable. That could be a couple of tables at least, right? Um there is a column and a roof going over it >> so that it's all circulation because you

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have to have the French doors >> and there's circulation coming out. >> Okay. So that that was not on the original drawing of columns. >> Uh it's on it's on the drawing. >> It's on the current drawing but not on the first one. >> It's on this drawing. >> This is forward video this evening. So this is one.

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>> Okay. But the old question you have >> right there. So that's just going to make it very easy for people to go in and out. Right. >> Right. Much faster. More people the whole >> No, it's just making it easy for people to go in and out.

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>> Double doors. Single door. >> That's all. >> Thank you. Any other questions from the audience regarding this? If you have, please come forward. >> Your name and address, please. >> Uh yeah, James Gilson at 444 Wyoming.

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>> Sure. What will be the capacity of the lamp? >> Um it depends how it's calculated. >> Well, the code >> whether it's tables and chairs or standing room. >> Yeah. And both.

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>> Yeah. Um so uh it it is a reduction. Um by uh putting the bathrooms and the kitchenet here we are reducing the potential square footage. Um the

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reduction for tables and chairs would be a reduction of 16 t uh occupancy. If it was chairs only it would be a reduction of 35 and standing room that would be a reduction of 40. >> Uh that's fine. What is the actual

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number that's allowed? >> Um, again, it depends what they choose for >> both seating and standing. >> Um, you would have uh 63 for tables and chairs, 136 for chairs.

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>> I'm sorry I'm interrupting you. Can you just clarify when you're talking about those numbers, we talking about existing or proposed? >> Uh, I gave you a reduction. So >> you said reduction of 16 occupancy, 35 chairs and 45 standing. That was the

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reduction and you're saying some other numbers. I just want to clarify what those represent, >> right? Okay. So this plan as is allows 63 for tables and chairs. 63 occupancy

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or can be in that space at one time >> or table table >> if there's tables and chairs in the >> and it's reduced by 16 in this time >> which I >> so the plan currently allows 63 correct chairs >> and I didn't I didn't carry my math up

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so >> that's okay >> this allows 16 fewer >> that was that was good clarification The original design allows 136 occupancy if it is just chairs.

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The proposed design is a reduction of 35 occupancy. The standing only calculation allows 190 in the existing post and this has a reduction of 49 from the

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190. >> When you say allows you're talking about fire rate >> it building code requirements. These are building code maximum requirements. These are not what the owner has

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intended to use. I'm only telling you building code. >> Building code max >> numbers. >> Okay. >> Any other questions? >> Your name and address. Correct. >> Hi. Uh Kathleen Gilson, 444 Wyoming

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Avenue in Milbour. Um, I just was wondering where those numbers come from for the original because I do not at all remember it being approved for 100. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just wondering because 190 standing. >> I totally agree with you.

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>> I don't believe we ever that the fire department never gave us that. >> I completely agree with you and I think there was some posting on the wall that gave what the allowable occupancy was. I am merely giving you what I'm reading by by a building code

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definition in today's building code that this has nothing to do with what was used historically or what will be used in the future. This is code compliance numbers only and it has a lot of repercussions about fire requirements,

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door swing directions, panic bars, sizes of my bathroom, sizes of the bathroom. Can can I just ask for my clarification? So, is what you're saying by current fire code that the existing structure before renovation would allow for 190

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people standing at an event? This is a bit of a simplification because you it didn't have the right fire. >> I know, but I'm I'm It's important as neighbors to understand because we're comparing >> Yeah. the size of the building could

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have allowed that. >> Okay. I I sincerely doubt that. I'm not saying you're lying, but I mean, from >> being in there so many times and running events, there is no way we were allowed to ever have anywhere near 190 people. I completely agree with you.

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>> Yeah. >> The question that the gentleman asked was asking you building code related questions. >> Okay. I I at some point it would be good to actually get apples to apples as to how many were allowed to be in the building standing for an event prior to

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renovation and how many. So I'm not saying you've got that information, but perhaps we could get it. >> That would be a building owner question. I'm only giving you what the building code allows as a maximum, but the building owner would be the one to identify what

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their intended use is. >> Well, compared to what I'm looking for is how many compared to how many people would have been at an event standing. >> Well, fire fire code will dictate that, but that's obviously the fire department.

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>> Okay. All right. But do you understand what I'm looking for? I totally understand what you're saying, but but you know, you said fire code dictates its own set of rules. >> Okay. Well, but we went by fire code before. I ran events there >> and and and that's actually how it would

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be occupancy rated, >> but the building code can be for something very different. >> Okay. But I'm just saying there's no way we ever had 190 people. >> I see how you can put them in there. >> Uh any other questions? Forward. Your name and address for the record. Uh

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Derek Humphrey's 446 Wyoming Avenue. >> Yes. >> A question in relation to occupancy. Does that also include the external patio area? So when you say 141 standing, is that 141 including people who are allowed to stand outside or can

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>> I reading a building code book? It's building up. Got >> so you Well, I don't know what that means. Does that mean you could have people who were outside in the patio as long as they weren't in the building and there was 140 people in the building plus more outside in the patio?

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>> There's law, too. You could have 500 people there. I mean, these are these are questions that aren't >> We're getting a little outside. We're talking about building code requirements as it relates to occupancy of a building. >> Somewhat outside of the scope of the board's >> No, no, no, no. I think that no it's a

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legitimate question. I'm going to rephrase it to help the process go longer. Okay. Have you done an analysis as to the capacity? Let's start with standing of people during an event just on a patio. I think that was the question. Was it about lawn or anything else? Just about the patio. Have you done that analysis?

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>> No, there is no analysis. >> Okay. And have you done an analysis as to how many tables and chairs can be um situated on the patio? >> No. Okay. Anything further questions, please

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come forward. Questions for the architect regarding her testimony, your name, and address. >> Just 57. >> How do you spell your lesson? N A Z A R E T.

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Thank you. Question for the architect. This came up in the first few minutes of the meeting. I know it's not a prototypical architecture question, but um questions regarding the membership were posed by the board. Are those appropriate for now? >> Nope. We're going to get to that when we talk to someone who's an expert on that.

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>> My question, >> come on forward. >> Name and address. Courtney Brand 57 London Street. >> My question is related to membership, how it's changed since three years ago to now with the new owners. >> That's going to be something for the

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owner. I don't I I don't want to speak for you, but do you have Okay. There's no knowledge. >> Well, let's let's because the the record being recorded. Do you, Miss Young, have any information as part of this application uh addressing the membership in the past or as proposed?

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>> No. No. And just for the board benefit, we will have someone from the board. >> Hold your question. Okay, we'll we'll come back to you. >> Uh, anyone else? >> Okay, counselor. >> Yeah, we will move on. Thank you so so much. Uh, Carolyn. Um, Mike, you're up.

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>> No, we're going to go with you next, Mike. And then we'll we'll bring up ownership to clarify some things. >> Well, let me let me just say if Mr. Lanzama's testifying, >> let's sit Mr. on the bumad down and we'll bring up Mary now.

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>> Did Mary leave? >> No. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Sorry to call you up. So >> quickly sworn up. >> If you would just raise your right hand, please. You swear from testimony you're about to give in tonight's public speaking to be the truth. All truth and for the truth. >> Yes.

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>> Your name and spell your name for the record, please. >> My name My name is Mary. First name Mary. Last name is Fron. F is in Frank. R A N is in Nancy. C is in cat. O E R. >> Thank you. We're not going to swear. We're not going to qualify her because she's not a professional. But what is

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your what is your affiliation with the club? >> I'm the president of the Maplewood Club. and the Maplewood Club is the uh sole member of the Tennis Center LLC, the applicant. >> Okay, great. So, you've heard some of the questions that were raised by the

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public regarding membership, prior membership, and what our anticipated membership is. Can you just give us a an idea of how this building is an accessory used to the tennis club, tennis courts, it's going to operate, members sign up to be part of the club? How does that work? >> Sure. So, um, what you need to

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understand is that, um, so the Maplewood Club, um, is not as old as the Wyoming Club, but, um, it was founded in 1916. Um, and it's located on Ridgewood Road in Maplewood. Um, it's a tennis club similar to the Wyoming Club. We have

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four courts, um, and a clubhouse that's, um, somewhat larger than the clubhouse that, um, we have here at the Wyoming Club. So, the Maplewood Club acquired the property um in 2021 um when we were approached by the Wyoming Club. The Wyoming Club was actually in a rears on

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their taxes. Um their membership had dwindled. It had been historically robust membership. Um and so what we did was we acquired the property for a dollar and um and back taxes. Um, and what we've done is basically incorporate

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the Wyoming club into the overall operations of the Matewood Club. So, we are now a tennis club with a membership of about 190 adults. Um, which is about 10% I think larger than the membership that we had for the Maplewood Club when

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we were just four courts in Maplewood. And so um what we did was we brought on the members the remaining members from the Wyoming club as part of our club and we um operate between the two clubs. We basically increased our tennis capacity

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and um and that's really the primary use of the clubs right now. >> So if you join one is is a reciprocity between the two >> you join we are one club. We are one club. >> Okay. Yeah. So, so, so the the the fact you said it's 10% larger, the Maplewood

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Club has become 10% larger than when it was with the poor courts. >> Yes, we've increased our membership because we've increased our court availability. >> Okay. And at the time that you acquired, if that's the right word, the Maple the

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Wyoming Club, >> what was the membership of the Wyoming Club? Active membership. >> I don't know. Did you >> I was not involved in the acquisition. >> Okay. And so you can't even estimate how many um members.

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>> Don't estimate if you don't. Yeah. >> So there are >> I mean I'm just using the math right now. So if you say that >> there are about 20 members that joined who had been members of the Wyoming club who are now members of the Newport Club. >> Right. Because I was going to say if you

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have 190 and you got 10% larger increase of 1920. Is that right? >> What's your membership goal? But do you have do you have a >> Oh, we're at we're at capacity. We have a waiting list for our membership. We have no intent intention of increasing our membership from the current.

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>> Do do you have do you have a um any type of charter that you have regarding your membership number or no? within within your Maplewood Club umbrella. Is there a charter saying that only so many members are allowed >> um

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to join? >> No, >> we do not. We're set it's set by board policy. We have a board of directors. We have a board of directors. I'm the president of the board of directors. I'm uh here with uh vice president of the board um Bob Anger. And we are a 15

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member board selfperpetuating um and just comprised of volunteer members. >> And you're tennis only, correct? >> Well, we have a club. We're tennis in our club houses. Yeah. Tennis only, >> right? Pickle ball? No. Paddle? No. >> Well, we Yes. Well, we have a pickle

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ball court at the Maplewood Club. >> Open this club. It's tennis. >> But it's tennis only. >> How many? There two courts here. >> Two courts here on on Linton. And so do you know at the time

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you know we said it's approximately 20 members of the of the Wyoming club at the time of the merger. >> Other than that do you have any information as to the history of the use of the Wyoming club here in Milbour for let's say the 10 years prior to that

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acquisition. >> Um anything I have is hearsay so I mean I can't speak to it specifically. Mhm. >> Are there bylaws that your members have to abide by? >> Absolutely. Bylaws. We have bylaws, articles of incorporation, bylaws and rules. >> Mhm.

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>> How does your membership process work? >> Um uh applicants apply um and their applications. Uh so they require a sponsor and two supporting >> uh letters and they're voted in by the

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board. Um, and we, like I said, we have a waiting list right now. So, >> go ahead. >> Question. Um, so it's it's tennis intensive. Will there be parties or anything else in that clubhouse? Would you could you rent out the space for >> Um, historically it has been rented out.

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We we also rent out our clubhouse on Ridgewood Road. Um, and it's available for I mean I I can describe to you the usage of the current Makewood Club house which is a larger facility with lots of

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parking and um our primary place where our rentals are directed. Actually can't do them right now at the the Wyoming Club. Um but baby showers sometimes we host you know there's weddings. Um, but that's a bigger facility with more.

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>> So, this facility, what is the plan for that? >> Uh, I mean the expectation is that we would make it available for rental for things like baby showers, birthday parties, you know, of that.

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>> That's in keeping with the intended use of the original historically this building since 1925 was used in that way. Is that correct? >> Yeah. Well, but but is do you have any because you talked about hearsay before, >> do you have any documentary evidence

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that the little tennis club, as we'll call it, here at Milbour, um had been historically operated where the clubhouse was rented out to third parties for events.

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>> I all I have is hearay. >> We We have the vice chair here. Yeah, we have the vice chair. >> Let's let's let's finish this testimony to the vice chair. Okay. >> What? So, so if I want to throw a party there, does it have to be um undersigned

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by a current member? >> Uh so, our clubhouse in on Ridgewood Road, we rent to members of the public. You don't have to be a member in order to rent it. Um and we would expect that they would be the same at the Wyoming Park. Is that how it pre-existed?

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>> I think this question would probably be more better geared towards our next with this who's consultant who does the historical >> uh Okay. Um any other questions from Lord? >> Any questions from the audience

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regarding this testimony? >> Come on up. >> Just remember what you've heard so far regarding hearsay and so forth. So, you know, it it may be your the next >> uh person that's going to speak that may have your answer. Just keep that in

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mind. >> Do you want Jim to speak first and then I can ask my question? >> Well, just a question. We're not speaking yet. >> No, no, no, no. Jim, while >> Oh, I'm saying no. If if you think if you think you were going to get an answer regarding >> Well, I my question might be better

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after Jim speaks. >> Fine, then we can we can wait on that. >> Um, any other question regarding your testimony or go forward? So, um, regarding the >> Wait, wait, wait. State the name. >> Sure. Mayhole show. >> An address, please. >> 57 Chestnut Street. >> Thank you.

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>> And regarding the rentals, right? Um, are is this going to be rentals to anybody? Um, is there going to be advertising that's associated with these rentals? It's going to be open to non-members. Is it members only? Can you describe how that's going to function? Um,

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>> I believe we should covered that, but I mean our expectation is that it would be available to to rental to the public. Um, yeah. >> Is that how historically it was rented out? >> That I can't answer, but I can tell you that our property down on Richmond Road is rented to non-members. It's available

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to non-member. >> That's a question we will get to. >> Perfect. >> Well, to the question the gentleman asked, is it your intention to advertise that space will be available? uh most of our advertis I mean we our Maplewood Club so all I can speak to right now is

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how we're managing our property down on Richwood Road and we have a Facebook page and an Instagram account um that advertises it but for the most part we work from word word of mouth and most of our renters are people out nonmember

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renters are people who have attended events at our clubhouse. >> Any other questions for the audience? I have a question. >> Come on forward. >> Hi, >> Jud Abramson at 51 Chestnut. Um what are

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the hours that rentals would occur during which hours? >> So um our the um hours will vary um but we would operate under you know following noise ordinances. So, usually

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on a weekend rental, the latest the um Friday can end is 11:00, which is consistent with ordinance. Um and on week nights and Sundays, it would be 9:00. >> And would the rental the parties who are

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renting the clubhouse also have access to the tennis court during that time? >> Yeah, >> it would just be inside only. >> Come on forward. Do you have a question? Yeah, >> just once again name and address for >> Courtney Brand 57 Street. I have two

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questions. Um, one at the current Maplewood location, how often do you have events? >> So, it varies. Um, but generally speaking, um, during the summer months, you know, we get weddings and stuff like

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that. So, we probably get we probably have 50 rentals a year. So there's 52 weeks in a year. No, actually that's high. We're probably more like 40 rentals a year. >> And then um this might be premature, but

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what are your plans for parking at this location given there is no parking to have events. >> Um so we're not um going to have >> there's no parking. >> There's no parking. I mean there's no there's >> never been parking.

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It's it would be street parking. Call forward once again. Name and address, please. >> Uh Derek Humphrey's, 446 Wyoming Avenue. Uh sorry for the grilling. Uh quick question on how do you enforce those hours of usage in the Maplewood uh Ridge

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Road uh facility? Um do you expect to do the same for the uh Little Wood, sorry, the Little Tennis Club? So right now we have a caretaker on site who works the parties um and we would expect to use a similar process over at the wing club

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that someone would be on site um to make sure that it closes down on time. >> Thank you. >> Any further questions for David? >> Hi David Jacobs 52 Lincoln. Um I just want to clarify something. Um, in an

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order of magnitude, how much larger is the Maplewood facility than this facility? I'm just trying to get have a sense is one's much larger. I think one's much larger. >> Yeah. So, um,

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uh, 120 seated. Um, so, um, Caroline was Carolyn. >> Be clear. I heard you say. >> So are you talking first of all about the Maplewood Club? >> So the Maplewood Club on Ridgewood Road has a seating capacity with tables of

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120 >> as compared to I think we were talking about 65 or and and that's and and again that is you know fire code. >> Mhm. Just

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anything further from the audience. >> Oh, sorry. >> Your name and address for the record, please. >> Judith Christian 435 Wyoming. >> What's your last name? >> Christian as in the religion. C H R I S T I A N.

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>> 435 Wyoming. Um, I was just wondering what the hours would be for the actual playing of tennis and the lighting of the courts when that would what the hours limitations. >> So, we don't have any lights on our

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courts. Um, so um it's daylight. >> Any further questions? Name and address, please. Michael Schneider, 438 Wyoming. Um could you speak to how uh the

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membership distribution is changing? In other words, are they going to be uh locals or are they going to be coming in from other towns? How that change you? >> So most of our membership is um Maplewood, South Orange, and Muller.

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Probably in that order um because most of our membership originated in Maplewood. Um we have a handful of members who are Essex County but not in this not in those three towns. Um probably count them on two hands.

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>> So the uh primary mode of arriving at the club is going to be by car. >> Um yeah I mean we have members who are in the neighborhood um who arrive by foot but yes I mean the most part people are coming by foot. Yeah, I think

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traditionally it has always been in the neighborhood, but now there's going to be a lot more, I presume. >> I think um by car. >> So, I can't speak to the previous um but Jim may be able to speak to how it was previously. Um but again, we have you

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know members in the neighborhood who walk to the courts by bicycle to the courts. Um so it's a it's but yes, actually you could have probably up to 10 cars parked there, eight cars parked there for tennis play. Mhm.

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>> 16. >> No. >> Eight people. >> Thank you. >> Any other questions for the audience? >> David address please. >> Radio.

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Uh a question. You have a renovation for the Maplewood Club couple years ago, right? >> A renovation of the Maplewood Club. >> Yeah. When was it? >> Um I mean we haven't done any I mean we've done >> improvement where

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>> we've done some some improvements. I mean we're constantly improving our clubhouse on Bridgewood Road. Mhm. >> So my question is how did the revenue split between rental

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and tennis pay before and prior to that renovation and >> um I mean we've not re renovated the clubhouse to the the extent of you know that that has altered the revenue

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production real my real question is after renovation for the violent hub. >> Mhm. >> Do the revenue split increase primarily for the rental only. >> I can't I I I can't predict

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>> because that's why I asked you what happened the makeover will cut that has a lot of implication for Wyoming cup. >> If you don't know they don't have to answer. >> I yeah I don't I I can't answer the question >> because I don't see too many people

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playing tennis. Basically the dependent >> questions only. >> Okay. But you >> do you have time to you have time to comment. >> All right. >> She doesn't know. Next question. Oh, sorry. So, can I just follow up on on a

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couple of questions ago? I think it'll add clarity this discussion. I'm a member and I want to hypothetically and I want to book some time on a court or doubles with my other

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three friends who are also members. So I'm assuming I call this one number I go online or I assume there's some sort of >> online reservation system. So, when when you have an online reservation system, um, can I see whether the Makerwood Club

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is filled up or not before I go over to the Wyoming Club? How How does that work? >> That's exactly how it works. I mean, you get an array of our of our six courts and you can pick and choose based on if I see that the and I want to play at

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Maplewood and I see the four Maplewood club uh courts are filled up from 10 to noon on Saturday morning, I can then go over and look over at the Wyoming Club to see if there's one of those two courts are available. Right. >> Thank you.

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>> Is there someone on site at all times that someone's playing tennis? Not necessarily if someone >> So it's like if it's you know you're open from let's call it 9 9 till 8 at night the summer time. Okay. Daylight

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whatever. >> Yeah. >> Is there someone representing your organization on site while people are playing tennis? >> Or do members access the title without any >> without without any supervision or >> Yes. Yes. I mean, I'm I'm smiling because so the answer to the question

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is, you know, we're we're a membership organization and so and we take care of our we are we we treat the courts as our own and we treat our spaces as our own. So we have very few staff actually. We have a general manager. We have a

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caretaker at the Makewood Club. And we have our tennis professionals. And other than that, we are a membership organization that relies on the um the decrim to make sure that they're, you

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know, um taking care of our space. >> Are there age limitations on how old you can be to rent a court? Four eight-year-olds want to play tennis. Um, they are allowed to play. >> No supervision. >> Um,

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they are allowed to play. I mean, they're junior members. They're they're children of our members and they are allowed to play. Mostly they're playing over at the Maplewood Club. But yes, >> but like a parent can drop off the four kids and have a good time. >> Got it.

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>> Question about membership. Are they family? By family or by individual? So we count by uh adult members and then they would have their their children as as part of their family memberships. >> So so the 190 or 190 adults plus

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whatever kids they may have who may want to be part of >> Right. Yeah. >> And and just in terms of do the courts um get um re uh surfaced every year? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we do we do annual

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maintenance on our courts. >> Yes. >> The point I'm making, I think it'll be helpful to the board, is that if this app if if this project is up and running that it won't be like one court will be inferior to the other court. They both

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will be the same quality court. Correct. >> Between Maplewood and Wyoming. >> Yes. It's not like, oh, I'm gonna go to the brand new Wyoming club because they just um, you know, put, you know, cartr or

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whatever on on the surface and and they're they're in better shape than the map. >> Yeah. No, no, no. We do significant annual maintenance on all of our ports. >> Yeah. >> And what kind of ports are they? >> Uh, hard true, which is an artificial clay. >> And you have sweepers and

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Swept rice. Since there's no like attendant, sorry, if there's no attendant on site, how would I access the bathrooms of the building? Is it through like a key code type thing? >> I mean, that's what it would be. Um, yeah.

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>> Just trying to get an overall idea of the operation. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right now there's a lovely photo. >> One question about do you have a light on the maple? Um, >> no. No. No. No. We we play by daylight. >> Do you plan to put a light there? Is

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there are there any plans to put lights there? We extend the playing house in future. >> Um, yeah. I mean, I can't commit a future board, but there are no plans. Yeah. Yeah. And that I think would require approval. >> Um, you want a larger waiting list?

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>> Do I want to work? >> You want a larger? >> You're welcome to join us. >> Play tennis. >> Too bad. It's It's a great sport. It's actually >> focus. But do you as the head of this organization, you want a larger waiting list for your spots.

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>> Um I I mean we I we are very comfortable with the membership numbers that we have. Um speaking personally, I want to be able to play tennis and so if more members means less court time for me personally, but um yeah, I mean our

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membership is just sort of an ethereal number or or a waiting list is kind of an ethereal number. And sometimes we invite people who are on the waiting list and they've made other plans. So >> So you're agnostic as to whether >> and do you think that because of the

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improvements that will be made as a result of this project, you think you're waiting list grow? >> Um I I can't I can't. Um >> really no idea. >> I mean I I think the most important thing for our members is the condition

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of the courts. Um the the clubhouse is actually are are somewhat immaterial. I mean I can go I mean I run into the bathroom and that's about it. Um but for the mo the most important things for our membership is the conditions of our tennis courts.

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I'm a member of of the club and >> hypothetically I want to invite um my three former uh college tennis team friends um who were

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coming in for the weekend um to go play at either the Maplewood Club or the Wyoming Club. What's the policy on guests? So, we allow guests and you you pay for your guests and you have to set, you know, sign them up and stuff like that, but guests are welcome. >> Unlimited.

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>> Um, we have limitations um on the number of guests that anyone can bring um especially people who live locally. >> Are you guys in line for more questions? Okay. Um, come on forward, but keep in mind you're going to hear more testimony on on this as well.

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>> Derek Humphrey, 446 Avenue. Uh just a quick question on Wyoming. There two courts. So if there's two sets of doubles, you could have eight people playing on the court. Do you guys have plans to run maybe clinics, kids coaching sessions where there might be one coach teaching multiple people at

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the same time, but it might be more than eight any one time for a period. >> So we're currently doing that. I mean, we have um clinics where you've got a coach and four players. We've got um uh some tennis activities that allow for a few more players on the court.

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>> Yeah, but that's occurring currently. >> Hi. Um just a quick question getting I'm sorry, Kathleen Gillson, 444 Wyoming Avenue. So, two questions, please. Um regarding

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rentals. So, hypothetically, if you um advertise this uh space, the Wyoming Club for rent and you filled it every week night and every weekend of the entire year, that would be acceptable to you.

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>> Um it's highly unlikely. And >> I just want to know would that would be okay. >> We shouldn't we shouldn't hypothetical just that would be okay. A party every every weekend night and and events every week night. I don't think we have the capacity to manage that. So, but

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>> but if people wanted to, that would be okay with your organization. >> I mean, is there anything to restrict? I should reverse. Is there anything to restrict? >> There's nothing to restrict us from doing that, but it's highly unlikely and

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I would not expect that to happen. Um, and I just wanted to ask too when you were mentioning about the children who could use the course unattended and that they would have a key code access to the building. So could any kids any age at

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just have access to the building at any time? So um we would work so we would manage that process because the expectation is that only the um the parents would have access to the codes.

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>> Okay. >> Um I was asking about that. Um so I know your expectations are as such but is there cameras? Is there a way to control that? So, we currently have cameras over at the Makewood Club and the expectation

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is that we we'd like we we actually also already have tennis camps over on the on the Wyoming Club. We would install cameras. >> The um if you're hosting a party on say Saturday afternoon, someone's using the the clubhouse. Can people also be

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playing tennis at the same time? >> Yes. >> I take your question. >> Um Okay. Thank you. Come on board. >> Uh my name is Roma Humphre and I live at 446 by now. I just want to know which

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would be your pre someone wanted to play tennis and there was also an event on which would you choose one over the other? Like if it was booked hypothetically, could that tennis club be booked every Saturday for the entire summer for parties,

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Christmas, baptisms, and people could be coming in from the tennis court to go to the bathroom in the middle of a wedding ceremony. Is that what you're >> So what we do now is we alert our membership when there is a rental at our

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clubhouse on Richmond Road um to respect the the fact that there is a rental there. Um, and but we need to have but we also notice to our renters that our members may be using the bathroom facilities.

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>> Okay. So, if there's a party, let's say over Maplewood and people have a lot of kids or something, would they just come over to Maplewood then for Melbourne for a quieter experience or >> I'm I'm sorry. I'm not I'm >> If there was a party, would you prefer

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that the your members went to Melbourne rather than make or vice versa? >> If if there's a party and these are these are clubs. >> And you mean use the tennis courts? >> Yeah. >> Um I mean our members you are accustomed

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to playing tennis while there are parties taking place over at the Maplewood Club. And is that because um where are the bathroom facilities in the Maplewood Club? Do they interfere with the >> They don't um they don't interfere. They're in the basement.

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>> Mhm. >> Okay. The the bathrooms that are in the MR Club or they near >> They'll be on the same level. There there's one level. There's always there's a single level for under the plans and there's there will be two bathrooms there.

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And my other two bathrooms for people standing >> um is that >> it's up to code. I would just ask move on from this question. It's somewhat relevant. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Sharon, if I could, we we do have a do

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have Jim while here who's going to testify talk about the history of the site. I want to remind us that we're here to decide is this a non-existing pre-existing non-conforming use. Are we intensifying that use? I think when you hear the history of the site, you'll say no. But I think these questions are a

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little bit redundant and we're getting into, you know, conjecture and I think if we bring up our next witness, >> I'm going to call for five minute recess. I want you to come on forward. Okay. >> Yeah. Take five minutes. >> Yeah. Um, so this case is going to be uh

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carried to July 20th >> request, >> right? And it'll be at the >> Mr. Chair Mr. I I'm sorry. We're going to continue to do the application. >> Witness that

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it's not it's not being carried. It's being continued right now. Confusion. I'm sorry to fake everyone. >> Okay. >> Do you swear from testimony about given tonight? >> I do. >> Same for the record. James Wild we l

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>> and your relation and >> I am a member of the Maplewood Club and I am a previous member of the whale club. >> Okay. >> And in that role, have you advised this have you advised this applicant on the historical nature of the site? And you're a licensed architect, but you're

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not presenting in your capacity as a licensed architect. >> Okay. So, you're just you're presenting as a member basically. >> Exactly. Okay. Wait. So, were you ever a an officer of either club? >> No. >> Okay. >> Oh, no. No. My wife was a member. >> And And when And when you were a prior

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member of the Wyoming Club, what were the years you can remember the Wyoming Club? >> Um, I have a little presentation here. I hit all those items if you want. >> Yeah. >> Uh, good evening. My name is Jim Wild. I live at 209 Sagamore Road up the hill from the tennis club. My family and I

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were members of the Wyoming Club from 1997 to 19 or from 1997 or 1998. We became members of the Maplewood Club when we merged. I have been a resident of Milbourne for most of the last 75 years and I have

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lived at my house in Sagma Road 42 years. I'd like to give you a short history of the Wyoming Club and history of how the club has been used over the years as both a tennis club and a social club. The club was founded in 1899 and was originally located at the corner Wyoming Avenue and Glenn Avenue. The

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formal opening of the club was announced on September 7th, 1899. And a little card they had says, "Notice is hereby given that the formal opening of the grounds of the Wyoming Field Club will take place on Saturday afternoon, September 9th, uh, 1899. The honor of

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your presence is requested." On September 27th, 1910, the club moved to the present location on Linda Street. A copy of the bylaws and certificate of incorporation dated March 27th, 1922 states, "The object of the club shall be to purchase, equip, and maintain a

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clubhouse, tennis courts, and other such buildings, grounds, and improvements as may be necessary, and provide for the recreation, comfort, enjoyment of members of the club and their families and friends of the public. In 1999, when the club was 100 years old, the Adam published an article about the club's

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history." And I'll just read a few lines from that. >> Wait, wait. This is Hold on. >> Yes. >> You're you're now reading from the Milbourne item. >> This is an article from the 19 uh Milbour item in 1999 was the 100th

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anniversary of the club. >> David Winkworth, a past, present, now Maplewood resident, recalls the club's busy social calendar of 50 years ago. There was a dance almost every Saturday night and a poker game each Monday night that lasted until 2 am. We won't.

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>> We held a variety of shows every year with a New York New York professional to direct today. The club maintains an active calendar of suppers and dinner dances as well as a tennis program including a recently organized junior tennis.

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I'll give you like to give you now a list of some of the types of activities hosted during the years I was a member. Adult birthday parties and >> I'm sorry I'm interrupting you. So this is from 1997

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until when >> until the merger >> till the merger in 2021. >> Yeah. adult birthday parties and anniversary parties, kids birthday parties. Uh there have been occasional weddings and bar

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mitzvah. Several times a year we had very popular family spaghetti parties. For many years we had an annual St. Patrick's Day dinner and party where we served corn beef and cabbage and had live music from an Irish folk band. We came from Philadelphia, poetry readings

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and storytelling. One night Kate Hathway and Cathway's mom and a former actress and singer put on a cabaret performance. The halfways were members of this club and their home backed up on the porch. Yoga classes. Two summers. There was a sewing camp for young kids. Sewing machines were set up in the clubhouse.

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Musical performances. Gas folk rock. Halloween haunted house. Kentucky Derby party. Cookie exchanges. Coffee houses. Beach party. October fest, family potlucks, karaoke night. So similar to those type of activities. And

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these are all activities that took place at the at the Wyoming field at the Wyoming Club. >> Correct. >> Or the Little Sennis Club according to this newspaper article. >> No, no, no. This is my list. >> This is my list of activities that started from 1997 to 2021.

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>> Exactly. Hopefully this will give the board an understanding of how the club has historically functioned over the past 100 plus years and serve as a community gathering spot and a central part of the tennis club and its tennis program. Uh a couple things that people have

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raised um is that previously most of the members were from the neighborhood um and that is true. I did a little study of membership guides from a number of years just to see how many were local, how many were

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not in the exact neighborhood. Um, for example, 1995, 61 members, 46 not in the neighbor in the neighborhood, >> but they in the township. >> What >> are they in the township or? >> Some were in short hill, some were in

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other towns. People had moved away. Some were in Maplewood. >> Not in the immediate vicinity where people >> Exactly. All right. >> This is an, you know, I just was not a scientific number again. I'm sorry. What were the numbers again? >> Okay. >> 90 1995

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>> 61 members, 46 not in the neighborhood. >> Got it. >> 1998, 53 members, 28 not in the Wyoming. >> Wait, you got to slow down. 1998, how many members? >> 53 members, 28 not in the Wyoming section. >> Okay. And where are you getting this me

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this membership number? It was a printed uh membership book every year which I I don't have them with me uh tonight. >> And how are you defining the neighborhood in your analysis? >> Just people let's say down to um Glenn

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Avenue um people that were served by the the Wyoming school >> walkable distance to the Wyoming Club. You know, walkable distance to the Wyoming Club. 2001 71 members 21 not in Wyoming 1993.

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>> Wait wait wait wait wait. You went from 95 to 98 then you said 2001 I think. >> Yes. >> I think that was a mistake. Then what's the next one? 200 >> uh these aren't necessarily in order here. Okay. 1980 72 members 44 not in

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the neighborhood. Wait, wait. Um, 1980, how many members? >> 72. >> 44 not in the neighborhood. >> Okay. >> 1968, 63 members, 19 outside of the area. >> You have anything that's actually in the

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2000s? >> I mean, data, but >> this is just what I have with me. >> No, something. Yeah, we don't have any anything current. >> Uh 2001 and I have 2000.

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>> What are those numbers in 20? >> 2000 61 members 25 not in the Wyoming area. 2001 71 members 21 not in Wyoming area. So just three final points. Three final

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points. Um, people were asking about lessons. As long as I was a member, we always had lessons, group lessons, uh, kids lessons, uh, after school during the summer and we always had, you know, kids

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playing games and basically >> that's it. Ch. >> That's it. >> Okay. Thank you so much. >> Go ahead. >> Question. Um, of the events that you listed, the birthday parties, the weddings, the occasional barb mitzvah, were those member events?

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>> Not necessarily. I mean, we rented it out just like um we are proposing to do. >> So, anyone on on earth could rent? >> Yes. And matter of fact, the uh church across the street, Wyoming Presbyterian, I think they used it for different events and also I believe it was used as

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case of emergencies come over to the to the club. to to your knowledge, what's the most number of people who had access play tennis on those courts at any given year? >> I'm not sure I can answer that.

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>> Any idea? >> Well, in in the last few years, there were very few because we have very few members, >> right? any any in any year to your knowledge may not know um has there ever been a hundred people who have had access to

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>> and there's certainly never been 109 >> certainly hasn't been 190 in any year to your knowledge >> members of the club >> members who had access to play tennis in the Wyoming club >> there were never that many members got it >> thank you so do you have information um

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and thank you for your testimony um in the asked from 2011 to 2021 any information as to membership. >> I would say if we were lucky we had we had 10 10 families

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>> 10 families within those in that 10-year period. Um why do you know why the membership dwindled? well had to do a lot with um changing

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activity of kids um baseball, soccer, all those sort of things became, you know, more popular. I just think people um had many other outside activities. Um we weren't able to keep, you know, the club

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in great shape because we didn't have any membership. >> Any other questions for the board? Yeah. The numbers you gave us are people, not families. >> Those were uh No, that was families.

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>> Okay. So, so you had between 50 and 70ish. >> Yes. during the 95 to 1968 to 2001 and some varying percentage

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third to a half were not walking distance or whatever right want to call nearby. >> So they had to drive or take a bicycle. But I think even when we had, you know, parties, example, I lived up in

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Salamore. It was nighttime. We we would drive >> and basically as uh the stage before to you have the church and their nursery school and tennis club. No one has

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parking there. Need barely institutions and parking on the street is >> so tradition there. You based these numbers off of membership list that you got as a member. Yes. And you have to save them. >> Uh to your knowledge, is there any place

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where any of the records of the club are archived in any place? >> Anything there is? I have >> So the rest of the club >> I have a couple boxes. >> So the club doesn't have any official records. >> The new club?

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>> No. No. The club until 2021. There isn't some archive of their records. >> Yeah, I have him in a box at my house. >> He as a former member of the club is the >> the steward of all the records, >> but that's not an official position.

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>> I don't know how much >> I got the box from one financial records for both for 40 years. >> Yeah. No, of course. If I submit them someplace, you know, >> 100%. >> Nobody says, "Well, you know, >> yes, we'll take that as official."

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>> Of course. >> Um, Mr. Ro, do you have any information as to during that 2011 and 2021 period when you had 10 member families as to how often um the building was rented out?

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>> Up until the pandemic, it was rented out. I don't >> you don't but you don't have any data or records of >> we I do in these books uh every event had a um newspaper work for most of the events but >> but you don't have that tonight. >> No.

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>> Would you say in your opinion that there were less events during that time period than prior to that time? Just to be clear, what time period? 20 2011 to 2021. >> With the deterioration of the building,

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do you think that there was less events during that time? >> Probably were, >> right? >> I know because the membership was lower, we didn't have like the big steady parties and St. Patrick's parties. >> That makes sense. Y questions for the board. >> Any questions from the audience

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regarding this testimony you've heard? call forward for me and address please 57 Chestnut Street. Um, so you read something out of the >> You can speak up a little bit. I really appreciate it. >> You read a a verse out of the 1922

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charter. Um, it had at the end of it friends of the public I believe is what it said. What does that mean? I'm not sure. >> It's a great question. Yes, that that did say that at the end. If you read the article of incorporation or I believe a citation to the article of

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incorporation, it said, excuse me, I'm paraphrasing something about members families members of the family or family members uh and to >> friends of the public. Does that mean public citizens? >> I'm talking the copy of the bylaws

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certificate of a corporation 1922. The object for the club shall be to purchase, equip, and maintain a clubhouse, tennis courts, and other such building grounds, improvements as may be necessary, and to provide for the recreation, comfort, and enjoyment of the members of the club and their families and friends and of the public.

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>> Friends of the public and of the public. >> I have the 1922 um certificate of incorporation here. It actually says and friends of the public, which is very different from what he has said. Um, friends of the public actually means

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nonprofit voluntary organizations that support public assets, right? So, that's okay. Hold on, hold on, hold on. >> If you are introducing a document, >> Sure. >> to discredit the witness or try to discredit the witness. Okay. What we do

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is you're first gonna show it to me. Oh, sure. >> Please. We're gonna mark it. Is that the only copy you have? >> I have one more copy. Um, but I wanted >> you have to give me about this. >> Well, let's just let's because this is once you give it to us and it's going to become an exhibit, it's going to be part

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of the record. Okay. So, would you like these two documents to be part of the record? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, >> we're going to call this 01, which is a certificate of corporation from what? 1922.

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Hold on. Sorry. >> And then O2 is a restated certificate of incorporation from 19

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84. Hold on a second. First thing you're going to do >> is we're going to mark this is 01 this is 02 427 and then

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you're going to this is for the board now but you can use it for now but you're going to first show it to Mr. Make sure he has an opportunity to review before you ask a question of the witness regarding it. Yeah. So now the question is um based on what

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>> you have to speak up >> based on what's in this document. Okay. Wait a second. >> Yeah. >> We can't hear you. >> You first of all you have to speak up. Sure. >> Like I'm speaking up. Okay. Number two, you have to when you're showing the witness the document, you need to

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identify which document you're going to show him by 01 or 02 and identify what it is. >> Okay, I'm going to show you 01. >> Um, that's the 1922 incorporation. Uh, it has the exact passage you were reading except with the

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friends of the public, which I've defined as, you know, nonprofit organizations that pretty much benefit public, right? Um, it lists out who it could be. It lists out um who could actually use the club and it pretty much says that it's members of of the club

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and their families and friends of the public, right? Cool. The 1984 certificate of incorporation which >> um actually has a different different listing um provides for the recreation,

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comfort, and enjoyment of the members of the club and their families. Right. So to me it >> Okay. Wait, wait. You're going to make argument later. Okay. I think I know we know where you're going. >> Okay. So, you're going to give us those documents because they're now ours.

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>> Yep. >> To anyone's knowledge, is there any subsequent document filed of similar type? 1984 was the last year >> in my >> bylaws were filed

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>> in my box of files. There have been updated bylaws or they changed something from different years or amended them. I don't have any of that. >> Right. >> We can just get that. >> That's what I was going to ask you, Mr. W. So I mean with these certificates of

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incorporation 01 and O2, have you ever seen them before tonight? >> I'm not sure if those are the same ones that I have. >> Fair answer. What I have here is what I >> That's fine. Um, are you aware of any bylaws

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of the Wyoming Club? >> They're in that box. >> They're in the box that's in your house. >> Any other questions from the audience for this witness? >> I mean, just to be clear, I as a legal matter, that's internal enforcement. That's not public enforcement. This

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building has been used in a certain way for a certain amount of time. And I think that's what controls >> I don't think I don't think he was trying to prove the statements that were contained in the documents as being true. I think what he was trying to do at least for the limited purpose and why

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I allowed it was that he was trying to discredit the witness. He wasn't >> understood. >> Using these as the truth of the matter asserted, so to speak. >> Okay. >> Good. Understood. >> Do you have a question? Please come forward once again. Speak up. Name and address.

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>> Hi, Taran 57 Ches Street. It's a question for you around the tennis lessons that were given at Wyoming Club. Um, what is the maximum number of kids that were involved in tennis clinics or tennis lessons at any given time? >> How about a range? 10, 15, 20.

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>> Give the lessons. I wasn't in charge of the process of the day. >> Well, I can share. >> Wait, wait, no. Later. question questions for the witness only. >> Sorry, I have a quick one. Michael

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Schneider, uh 438 Wyoming. Uh so Jim, you mentioned that you did an analysis of prior memberships and who lives where. Uh to your knowledge, uh outside of Milurn and Short Hills, how many members were from outside of the

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township? >> I don't have that number. Was it lots and lots? No, but >> okay. >> Thank you. Please come forward once again. >> Courtney Brand 57 London Street. I have

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two questions for you. It sounds like you have these documents in the box, but to your recollection, how frequent were the events in the 2000s? >> I I can't say. >> To the best of your the best of your knowledge, was it every other week? Was it every week? It was not like every

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week. It might have been like once a month if something per day. I don't really have >> And do you know if they advertise the event space? >> I I don't know. >> Thank you.

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>> Any further questions? >> Once again, name and address. >> Uh James Gilson, 444 Wyoming Avenue. >> That thing's up though. It doesn't actually work. Did you did you hear me? Okay. >> I got you to speak up. >> There you go. Uh Jim, real quick on the

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uh the question of of people that were within walking distance. >> Do you happen to know with the Med Boy Club and the Combining Wyoming, how many people are in walking distance now that set up? to six I would say six ter

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I I I would just ask this I I we would imagine that you would imagine that there'd be more traffic coming to uh to use those tentacles than in previous uh years

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I guess >> prepared to >> Yeah. Okay. >> You don't you don't know. You don't know. That's fine. >> Thank you. Appreciate. >> Okay. >> Um anything for further from the audience regarding this witness council? You got till 9:00 and I got to move on. >> Yeah. I I think we just have one more

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professional. We're going to have some board to vote on this after this. So, um one more professional. >> Michael is our planner. So, just to be clear and for the record, there is a deed restriction on this property for rec recreational use. The

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deed restriction on this property for recreational use. Our alternative to this will be I'll just have to say this for the record will be that we go to court to invalidate that deed restriction and seek a remedy to to put some housing on this property which would you know you guys understand that

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process. >> Okay, whatever. >> So, so let's be clear. So, the deed restriction is what? the restriction only allows recreational use on this property. >> Okay, wait, hold on sec >> was

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>> was that information um provided to zoning off? >> I don't believe it was as part of the zoning >> and you didn't submit a copy of the deed restriction to either the zoning officer or this board in connection with this application. That's my not that's my as

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we discussed last week. >> Yeah. >> You swear from testimony about the given proceeding truth about the truth. >> I do. My name is Michael Lonzafama. That's L Z F A M A. I'm a licensed professional engineer land planner

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licensed in the state of New Jersey. I'm a principal of the firm of Casey and Keller Incorporated 258 Main Street, New Jersey. >> You're testifying in the capacity of the planner. Correct. >> As planned. Correct. >> Accepted by this board, please.

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>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. >> You've heard the testimony before this board tonight. You've heard the public >> your comments. Yeah, my my my comments are pretty simple. Um, with regard to the building itself, um, you heard from

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the architect that there is a reduction in the size of the building, the F is being reduced, the building coverage is being reduced, the overall lot coverage being the front yard setback is being made compliant. The length of the

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intrusion into the sideyard is being reduced. The roof that's being reconstructed is within the same footprint both vertically and horizontally as the existing structure. So the volume of the structure is

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actually being reduced. We're simply moving some of the bathrooms and kitchen from the front section of the structure to the rear of the structure. Some minor modifications are being made to the canopy and the small shed area. uh off

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of the patio area. So under 40 col 55-68 under non-conforming structures and uses uh the law says any non-conforming use or structure existing at the time of the passage of an ordinance may be continued

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upon the lot or in the structure so occupied and such structure may be restored or repaired in the event of partial destruction thereof. Now the courts have ruled that the structure could be made because of a problem with

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the structure itself. So it could be partially uh demoed to allow for the reconstruction in a safe way. So the structure itself is going to be used in the exact same way it h has been used

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historically and because of the fact that there's less F and you heard from Miss Young that the occupancy is actually going to be reduced. So in my opinion as a planner um I do not see

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this as an expansion of an existing non-conforming youth. I see it as a continuation of an existing non-reforming under the Milburn ordinances. This

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activity does not require site plan approval because we're not um adding F to the building. we're not increasing the footprint of the building and not increasing the number of parking spaces that might be required as part of uh the

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struct as part of the development. Um and as I said again uh pretty straightforward that it's site plan exempt. The municipal land use law clearly states that a structure could be

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restored or modified uh but not expanded as part of an existing non-conforming use. And your own ordinance talks about allowing non-conforming structures to continue um without the need for

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variance or site plan approval. As I said in my opinion as a planner, I believe that the proofs are there that this does not rise to the level of an expansion of an existing non. >> Thank you, Mike. You're welcome.

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>> Thank you. Any questions for Mr. L? So, Mr. Pal as a as a professional planner and you've heard the testimony tonight. Um, assuming that the uses are not changing, okay, the types of uses of the property are not changing, is it your professional opinion that the membership

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going up to 190 adult members that there will be an intensification of the use of the property or no intensification? the way it was described and what I heard as testimony. The fact that the Maplewood Club has kind of absorbed the

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Wyoming Club, in my mind, what guides the use of the property, what controls the use of the property is the number of courts. The courts are the primary principal use. The the building that we are renovating is really an accessory

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structure. So, it's the courts that control how much and how frequently they can be used. There's no lighting, so you're restricted to daylight hours just as it has always been for decades. So, in my professional opinion, I don't

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believe the fact that they've been absorbed by the Maplewood Club in my mind has not intensified. Do you think it is more likely or less likely with given the increase in the number of members that the courts will be used more frequently or not?

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>> Well, obviously during that period when the courts were were struggling when the Wyoming club was struggling certainly you're going to see an increase over that. But historically prior to the decline of the club I think you're going

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to see just about the same amount. Do you have any evidence about how how the courts reviews prior to the time of vote? >> I do not. >> Thank you. Any other questions? >> Yeah. So, Mr. Wafama, you're not aware

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of any certificate of non-conforming use for this property. Correct. >> That's correct. And you have not reviewed any resolution of approval or denial from any board of the township regarding its property. Correct. >> Correct.

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>> And you've not done um and I'll ask you this. What um what year did the ordinance in the township of Milbour change so to make this property

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go from conforming to nonconforming? would imagine I don't have the exact date but I would imagine the first ordinance that was enacted that created the residential zoning that currently exists there. >> Okay. You have not done any independent investigation as the as the professional

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planner on this application to determine the year or even the approximate year when uh an ordinance was enacted by the township of Milburn to make this use non-conforming. Correct. >> That's correct. And um you've done no independent

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investigation um other than what you've heard tonight um to ascertain the use or intensity of use of uh this property at any time. Correct. >> That's correct.

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>> Nothing. Since we're going from essentially 10 numbers to 190 on day one, I don't think there'll be an intensity of intensification of the use of the building itself. >> No, I don't because the building is going to be reduced in size. The

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occupancy load is going to be reduced. Um I would imagine that I'm not talking about the capacity. I'm talking about actual days of use when we know we know from testimony that the current uh Maywood building is being used for

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roughly 40 events a year. Uh so simple math tells you do you think it will increase the use of this facility as well once again being that you're increasing the membership size by an enormous amount.

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>> Yeah. But you you have to look at the historical use of the structure and the the two courts. As you heard from Mr. Wild, there were activities there quite often, a variety of activities,

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not just birthdays, but also gatherings of different sorts, poetry leaves, classes, things of that sort. Why would we believe that it would be used any >> because you're going from the most number of people that Mr. while set is about 70.

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That was the most, right? So now, now we're going to two and a halfx was 3x. So So if we could assume there were spaghetti dinners and all that stuff when there were 70 members. Now we're

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going to 90 on day one with a weight list. Um, how would you not think that the building itself would have any testification to be used? >> Because you have the Maplewood Club, which is a larger facility with parking available. Most of the activities are

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going to occur there. This is going to be basically a neighborhood type of facility that would accommodate birthday parties and showers and things of that sort. And as you heard from testimony from Mr. Well, that even the uh first

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Presbyterian Church would use it uh periodically for activities. I I don't see why it would change just because they were absorbed by another club. >> Well, I honestly why it wouldn't change when you go from 10 members to 100.

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>> Yeah. But there's no there was never any limitation on how often it was used. >> There was never a restriction that it could be used seven days a week. Well, but it was also open to the public

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as you heard. So it didn't matter how many members were available is if the general public is is renting the facility and using it. Why why would we think it would be any different? >> Um any other questions from the board?

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the the frequency of usage of the maple plant is is quite almost like 40 more than 40 per year. That means almost every week is already occupied after no since that is already occupied. Maybe

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the member will start using the club, >> but the size of the structure is really going to restrict how it's you >> and type of event, how many people are going to be there, and I think that's what you have to focus on, >> but it's not going to limit the frequency, right? >> No.

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>> Right. So, there could there could be there could be significantly more events >> at the Wyoming Club than there historically have been. It's possible there won't be, but it's do you just think it's not possible? I I was say likely that that will be Let

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me finish. >> Likely that that club will be used more frequently than it ever has historically been used. >> Exactly. I don't see why >> you don't think it's likely. >> I Why Why would >> there

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But you're you're focusing on the number of members as opposed to its availability to the general public. I've only run country clubs, so I can only tell you from my experience, my experience, and I don't buy a single thing you're saying, but we'll roll with it. Okay. >> Okay.

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>> So, um, any other questions from the board? >> Do you have any data or any any amount of you have the data the event rent by how much percent is from the member? How much percent is from non-member?

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>> We do, but it's in the box. safe in the basement. >> Um, anything else will work? >> I will open it up to the public for questions of this questions only. Once again, come on down. Once again, name

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and uh, address, please. >> Michael Schneider, uh, 438 Wyoming Avenue. >> So, I have a couple of questions. So first you mentioned a that a capacity restriction is somehow going to restrict the volume but the capacity restriction

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if I remember correctly is around 100 people >> the other way around the volume in the building the >> correct but the occupancy essentially before was close to 100 people I don't see how that's going to cut down the absolute number if there's 100 people in

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that what 1700 square foot building how is that going to I'm sorry, I don't quite follow your question. >> Okay, I'll try it again. So, you're saying that the number of people allowed in that house are going to limit the use

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of the house, right? So, I'm saying that based on what we've heard, the number of people that are supposed to be allowed in that building is quite large. How do those two things connect? It's a it's a simple matter of reduction

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in size. If you have a reduction in size and and a reduction in the allowable capacity, you have a less occup. You're basing that on a sign on on a wall. >> Looking look at the building. The building is smaller. >> Yes. >> Okay.

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>> So, what's it what is its projected capacity? >> You heard from the architect. The numbers off the top of my head. >> It's it's over 100 people if I heard right. >> That's under the building code. Okay. So, the building, >> but it's going to Yes. And it does now. And what we're looking

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at is the delta. What's the difference? And the difference there is no difference >> other than it's being reduned. >> You're looking at a delta. I'm looking at the absolute. >> Um, >> but we have the already been placed.

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>> What what the question before the board is, are we expanding that? And that's just clearly in my mind the answer to no because the building is going to small. >> All right, I think I made my point. Um, how is uh the the building as planned

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contributing to the tennis club other than as discussed as a bathroom? >> Contributing to >> how is its use related to the tennis club other than as a bathroom for the numbers? >> Well, they they do have activities. >> Are there lockers? Are there >> No, there's no lockers. It's part of >> Is there a pro shop?

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>> I don't know. You have to ask. >> Okay. So, you mentioned that the use of the property will be driven by the number of courts, >> the tennis courts. >> That's what I said. Yeah. >> Okay. How how does that jive with the

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fact that there's going to be a rental facility? To me, it seems that the use of the rental facility could be the driver. the primary youth. The question from the board was concerning the number of members and and >> this is my question, not the board.

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>> You're questioning me about my testimony and how I responded to a question from the board. >> No, I'm asking a direct question. >> I'm not asking you about what you told the question. >> I ask you for the sake of time if we could just a little bit more expeditious here.

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>> Sure. Is the driver of the use of the property going to be the two tennis courts or is it going to be the rental building? >> In my opinion, the tennis courts. How often the tennis courts are used is going to be a primary >> element of value.

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>> I'm done. Thank you. That's the opinion. >> Next up, >> hi Taran, 57 Chest Street. Question for you. So you have mentioned that expansion and intensification uh are not present here based on the building of the structure. Is that right? >> That's correct. >> So what about the property? Has there

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been any expansion or intensification of the property to your knowledge? >> That's not the the application before the board is to get a reversal of the zoning officer's interpretation that modification to the building was an intensification and enlargement of the

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non-conforming views. I think the application is based on the preservation of non-conformed use and intensification of expansion can challenge non-conformed use. So I'm asking you because you were also the engineer >> associated with project to your knowledge has there been any property

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expansion or intensification to date. >> The only thing that has been done is maintenance of courts that was done recently >> in the form of what? >> It's irrelevant to the to I'm sorry it's No, it's not. It's irrelevant. We're talking about an accessory use court. the the courts are not subject to this application.

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>> This is not excuse me the the technical rules of evidence in New Jersey do not apply here. The board has the ability to restrict questions and testimony that are relevant and not repetitious can ask your question.

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>> So in terms of property exposure and justification you mentioned maintenance work was recently done. Can you please expand upon what maintenance work has recently done? Uh there was a strip at the rear of the tennis courts that had received uh when they maintained the

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court they used to dump the hard true at the end of the court. So there became a strip that was uh became overgrown with weeds. Um arrew was beneath it. They had some artificial grass over the top of

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it. They decided to remove that and uh braid it out. put in a curb in form of a railroad tie and put in a trench drain. You take the run off from the uh court. >> So, I do have an exhibit to share um this.

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>> Wait, are you intending to introduce the exhibit to the spread of the witness? >> Let me say it. and March. So, >> we're gonna make an announcement about the remaining cases tonight after this

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is finished. So, this is Hold on. Let's see what this is. >> This is the independent I can't hear you. >> This is the independent engineering firm's assessment of the recent maintenance work going on. >> Okay. Okay. Here's here's the thing. So

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what you've submitted is a memorandum from a professional engineer and a professional planner actually also from a second professional engineer. Um are either

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Mike Petri or Shan Delaney present tonight? They are not present tonight. >> Okay. So, because they're not present tonight, at least not tonight, you cannot um introduce these into the record to discredit the witness or even

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during the public comment session to introduce them as part of any type of affirmative testimony. If professionals provide written reports, as the professionals in this room know, it needs to be supported by live testimony

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subject to cross-examination of not just the board, not just members of the public, but Mr. Murphy. Okay? So, can't use those. If you want to ask a question based on your knowledge, you can ask the question, but you can't use

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>> Okay. follow up. >> So, in the main sentence work that was recently done, did you receive uh did the property receive a violation from Township for work permitted? >> Yes, they did. >> So, the work that was unpermitted was both on the drainage and did you to your

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knowledge wasn't previous tennis court space added as well? >> No, the area that was uh cleaned up. >> Can I check with this line of questioning? I know we'll be overruled. I'm assuming, but can I object on the record to this line? You should never assume anything. >> Okay, you can make you can make your

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objection. Go ahead. >> I object to this. I think it's irrelevant. I don't think it has anything to do with the application or this the fact that this is a pre-existing non-conforming use of municipal violation related to the tennis courts which is not part of this application. I think is irrelevant. Well, I I think where I think where

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she's going on, I may be wrong. I may is having to do with impervious cover, which was testified to by your architect in terms of being either compliant or or reduced. So, she can because >> Well, no, but the door was open certainly, and you provided a zoning

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table that provided that information. She can ask the question. >> So, I believe I mean, you were part of the chain of of emails that the uh the township issued in terms of the violations. Okay, wait, wait, stop. You can ask a question about imp. You hear

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what I just said about impervious coverage. Okay, that's they've opened the door on that based on their direct testimony that any type of violations don't go to the issues before this board current. >> Okay.

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>> So, I think I made my point. there was uh additional work that was done to the property that has not been covered as part of building her structure which does then challenge property expansion and property intensification. And while I'm not allowed to uh submit my exhibits

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tonight, if I don't know if I misheard that the hearing continues on July 20th, um I would like to submit my engineering memo from an outside firm. And I would also like to uh I pulled an Oprah for the town summons for the violations so

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that the nature of the violations and >> these aren't questions for this witness. >> You're making a statement. >> I'm just I'm explaining why why the work was not maintenance. It was a violation. Thank you. Next question for Mr. Lzov

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Shaw 57 Chest Street. Um so that work that was uncommitted, right? Um what would be the impacts to the surrounding properties that there was a burn that was about a foot tall that was removed. What would happen to the property? >> That is not the subject of this

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application. >> Okay. This application is dealing with a zoning determination having to do with the use and potential expansion or non-expansion or non-intensification of the loops. You're talking about permitting that's not that.

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>> Fair enough. Um you had spoken about a ordinance right um relating to nonconforming structures. Um how does that relate to a use? Can you help me to understand that? Well, basically you can continue an existing

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nonforming use and maintain the structures on it as long as they're not expanding. >> Okay. Um are there any other car notes for that particular ordinance that need to be looked at? >> Well, you're referring to DRZ 605,

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right? which begins with except as otherwise specified non-conforming uses structure sites or lots any use building or structure existing at the time of the enactment of this ordinance may be right >> except except as otherwise specified

416
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what other ordinances >> why don't you tell us >> I don't 60 6098 >> well he can just ask why don't you tell us okay we can we can go to that one we can look up 609 Just you have any questions for the witness?

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>> Well, I ask he interrupted. >> Yeah. No, I guess you don't know. >> Well, I'm good. >> All right. Next question. >> Uh Derek Humpley, 446 Lang Avenue. Just a follow-up question to your uh comment

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about the tennis courts being a primary driver for the use of the premises. Uh could you uh or could you answer this question about uh Maplewood venue uh which is existence about 40 approximately uses a year is about twice

419
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the size in terms of occupancy than Wyoming. I think we've given a figure of 120 seated versus 63 seated in in Wyoming. So would the cost of renting that venue actually make it quite attractive for people who wanted a smaller venue for smaller groups both

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for members and the general public who can also use it? I won't be that question. I don't know if the pricing would be any different. >> Thank you. Uh James Dilson at 444 Wyoming. Uh a

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quick quick question. You were indicating that the uh tennis courts of the driver were used Obviously, there's a season for tennis and when the season is over, is the building still active? Is that still going to be available for renting? So, so that case that'll be the

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driver for use the rentals. Thank you. Any other questions? >> I have no further witnesses. Um, you know, in light of all the testimony, we're asking the board to take a vote on this and our request originally was to overturn the uh zoning officers denial

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of the zoning permit application and that remains. >> Very well. >> Right. So, you're up to the point where it's open for public comment. Uh, the application is open for public comment.

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It is 9:15. Um, em. >> All right, we have six other cases to get to, which we're not. Okay. Um, and I'm assuming that we're going to have quite a bit of comment here. So, with that, we're going to have to move some of these cases. Okay.

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You ready, Nie? Okay. I'm we're gonna tonight I'm going to do our best to get to calendar 4726 9 Park. >> Okay. Um I would ask that 40672551

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Chessa hangs out. Okay. The rest of them we'll move starting with calendar 407626 112 Fairfield Drive. Danny and Passion Neck. Who's here for that? >> Come on down.

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>> He's got past. >> Yeah, I know. So, okay. Well, we're gonna do both yours. So, um, when's the next available date? Let's start to spread these out if we can only because I don't want to get the same. So, what

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do we got? Um >> probably best that will be >> August >> and what's that? >> August 3rd. >> August 3rd. >> Yeah. Can I ask you I mean so I'm trying to build a garage.

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>> Okay. >> At some point my kids will go to college garage. So, my son has a fact that the ground will never be built. So, >> I would really This will not take more than five minutes. >> I I honestly I thought this case tonight

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was going to take only a few minutes and here we are two and a half hours into it. >> So, we're out of here, >> right? And that's the other thing, too. We lose this room and we move to another room and it's shared right now to go town hall. So, August 3rd and make it

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work. >> Okay. Did you say two of mine? The next one. >> Yeah, we're move we're going to move that one too. That's the next one. Calendar 47726. >> Is there any better way you can do this process? >> Uh, this is just not better for people who are sitting here waiting for their cases, right? >> Believe me.

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>> I I know you don't want to see that. No, I I mean >> times for each case, someone gets a disregard. >> Unfortunately, that's how it goes. Okay. If a thousand people want to come in and talk about your case and how much they want your garage or don't want a garage,

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you're entitled to do it. Can't stop it. >> All right. Thank you. >> Sure. So, stick around. 40776. Uh pal, we do that one. >> We're doing the same time. >> Sam's here. >> Same thing. >> How are you? Uh third I mean

434
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>> summer >> I know it's like >> I mean that's what I told >> I know I know >> I mean before that July 20th so >> July 20th >> Oh we'll take >> you want to vote the 20th we do both

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>> I can assure you we'll very quick >> yeah I know >> so 20th it is for both okay Mr. flashback. Okay, thank you. Okay. >> Okay. Next up, we have calendar 407926 14 place.

436
02:22:14.560 --> 02:22:42.640
>> Who's here on that? >> What's your what's your intention on this case? You starting over? Are you gonna start? >> This is 14 Raleigh. >> Oh, sorry. >> Okay. So, wouldn't I want to do that one? third.

437
02:22:42.640 --> 02:23:11.439
>> That work for you. >> Yes. August 3rd. >> Thank you. >> Uh 40 8026. Spice handler. >> Huh? Mine of course is an easy one >> like everybody does.

438
02:23:11.439 --> 02:23:32.080
>> Yeah, I know like everyone protested. >> All right, >> I can see very quickly. Thank you. >> Next up we have counter 40 70 26. I think that's it. >> Anyone else that didn't get scheduled?

439
02:23:32.080 --> 02:23:47.280
>> No. >> Um so for anyone here on those cases that were just rescheduled, understand that um there'll be no further notice. Um and we'll be hearing them on those dates.

440
02:23:47.280 --> 02:24:03.920
Um so anyway, now we're going to open up public comment on Little Tennis Center. I ask you to please be mindful of time. I ask you to please be mindful of repetition. Okay?

441
02:24:03.920 --> 02:24:20.240
Um as you'd like to get all of your testimony in. We'd like to hear what you have to say, but at the same time, um we do need to be somewhat mindful of the clock. We'd like to get two more cases in tonight. Okay. So, who'd like to go first? You were gonna swear you in obviously name and and address for the

442
02:24:20.240 --> 02:24:37.359
record but >> Kathleen >> Gilson you swear testimony about the >> name and address >> Kathleen Gilson 444 Wyoming Avenue Milbour. >> Wait hold on for a second. I don't I

443
02:24:37.359 --> 02:24:54.000
don't see the applicant's attorney. >> Okay. >> I know he's outside. Okay. He needs to come back in because he has the right to cross-examine on any live testimony. So I I can stop things because you have the right to be present

444
02:24:54.000 --> 02:25:09.760
>> for all this testimony and the right to ask questions of any witness who is sworn to give testimony regarding this. >> Thank you. >> Go ahead. I'm sorry. Um my husband and I uh live uh the back of our yard backs up to the tennis club

445
02:25:09.760 --> 02:25:26.560
and uh we purchased our property in 1987 and we joined the tennis club. I don't have the exact year but maybe say five years after that or so when our kids were small when we joined the members that you know initiated us into the

446
02:25:26.560 --> 02:25:41.120
tennis club were 70 and 80 years old. I mean, they had been members forever. And I can just tell you, I know it's my word. I don't have paperwork to show you, but it was a membersonly. >> One second.

447
02:25:41.120 --> 02:25:59.120
>> Hey folks in the back, let's >> Thanks. >> Sorry. >> That's okay. It there. They had lots of parties. When we joined, they were all adult parties, you know, for the grown-ups and all. Um, they were not renting it out. It was not a rental

448
02:25:59.120 --> 02:26:15.200
venue. They had parties absolutely for members. When my generation took over and we had young kids, we had lots of the things that were mentioned. It was run by the club. It was a neighborhood

449
02:26:15.200 --> 02:26:33.120
tennis club. And yeah, we had events. I ran that St. Patrick's Day. I was on the board uh running activities. I can tell you you had to be a member or occasionally a friend of the member. Um we did not it was not a rental venue

450
02:26:33.120 --> 02:26:50.319
that was uh you know advertised as such. Um you know it it it would wax and wayne as to how many you know activities depending on the membership depending on the um you know just the activity of that particular membership. But we were

451
02:26:50.319 --> 02:27:05.520
not out there posting it all over the place and renting it to anyone who wanted to. It's literally in a neighborhood. My property is 50 by 150. These are not great big huge properties where we have all this space. Okay?

452
02:27:05.520 --> 02:27:20.479
Literally my house at the back is like it's like right there. My neighbor backs up to the building. And if that building suddenly becomes and and let me just back up for one second and say the application from my understanding is

453
02:27:20.479 --> 02:27:38.399
that it's based on prior use. This is not the prior use that has historically been the use of this club. It has not been a rental venue. Um and and it shouldn't be. It is literally in a neighborhood. if this building was

454
02:27:38.399 --> 02:27:54.160
rented to the general public for you know all kinds of parties and I know we're saying you know baby showers and all and bar mitzvah bar mitzvah have um DJs and all when the parties would take place even if they were for the club

455
02:27:54.160 --> 02:28:12.000
they're really loud okay I bought we bought our house next to the tennis club I don't expect the tennis club not to have parties but I certainly expect it not to be a rental venue for anyone who wants to any night of the week. U that

456
02:28:12.000 --> 02:28:28.319
is not historically what it's been ever. And it it it really should take precedence that this is a nonconforming structure in a neighborhood a like we are right there. They do not

457
02:28:28.319 --> 02:28:45.200
have any buffer. Like literally that wall to here is way more distance than the building to my neighbor's house and my fence on the back, you know, on the other side of it is is their backyard. It is right there. So I hope that when

458
02:28:45.200 --> 02:29:02.160
you hear that it is just continuing the use that has always happened, you understand that there's another opinion there. And I've been a I was a member for a long time running those those events and it was never

459
02:29:02.160 --> 02:29:19.200
primarily this rental venue that it that is my fear. I have no problem with it continuing as a tennis club and being used for the members, but I really hope that you'll bear in mind that's not what we're talking about here. It's a very very different use. So thank you.

460
02:29:19.200 --> 02:29:35.520
>> Thank you. Next square you in raise your hand. You swear testimony about given proceeding be true above truth. >> I do. >> Name and address 446 Wyoming Avenue. >> Just can I just interrupt?

461
02:29:35.520 --> 02:29:52.160
>> Um Mr. Murphy, you didn't have any questions for the last witness, correct? >> Okay. So after each witness goes, he has an opportunity to ask questions. >> Thank you. Uh so again I support the uh refurbishment of the the building for

462
02:29:52.160 --> 02:30:09.600
the tennis club. Uh if I had any hand eye coordination I'd like to join it myself but the uh my concern is around the not even intensification or scale but the frequency of the events that might occur at the venue particularly in the evening and over weekends. uh when

463
02:30:09.600 --> 02:30:24.399
refurbishing the fleet I'm sure it's going to actually be a very very nice venue perfectly suited for the approximate numbers of 10 20 30 up to 60 people seated with tables and chairs and beyond a nice patio area potentially for barbecues wherever else so my concern is

464
02:30:24.399 --> 02:30:40.160
around uh how do we enforce or how can it be enforced to put some kind of capital restriction on that use even by just the the members and their balance so that we don't have events running every single evening every single uh uh weekend. We've had verbal assurances

465
02:30:40.160 --> 02:30:56.560
from uh the uh president and the vice president who very kindly uh talked to us directly one of the evenings last week. But being a board and being something that can change over time, those necessarily can't be enforced. And if they need to have an extra uh source

466
02:30:56.560 --> 02:31:11.359
of revenue for anything in the future, this is a very attractive opportunity for them to actually increase their revenue to rentals both publicly and to their uh the membership. So essentially what I'm hoping for is uh some kind of restriction that can be enforced uh and

467
02:31:11.359 --> 02:31:29.840
can be monitored uh to put a cap and restrict the intensification of the uh venue. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And no question. Thank you sir. >> You swore from testimony to get into tonight.

468
02:31:29.840 --> 02:31:46.319
>> I do. name and editor >> will please 446. >> Um I want to begin by saying I support maintaining a tennis club and improving the building. My concern is not the existence of the club. My concern is the potential for the club building to function as an unrestricted event venue

469
02:31:46.319 --> 02:32:01.280
in the middle of a residential neighborhood without clear operational guidance. I respectfully ask the board to consider the following and parking and traffic safety. When Kaiser Park near our driveway entrance, even on one side, sight lines are reduced

470
02:32:01.280 --> 02:32:18.880
substantially when reversing out onto our driveway onto Wyoming Avenue. Increased evening events could mean additional on street parking at night, making it harder for residents to safely exit their driveways after that. I'd also would also note that on Google

471
02:32:18.880 --> 02:32:34.560
Maps, this building is now listed as the Wyoming Club Tennis Learning Center. This reflects an expansion of group lessons on clinics during the day. The board should consider uh the increased parking impact, not just during the evening events, but throughout the day

472
02:32:34.560 --> 02:32:51.520
as well. I would therefore ask whether there will be enforcable parking limits or specific traffic management conditions that uh account for both daytime and evening use. Food services and fire safety. Will food trucks be permitted on London Street? If yes,

473
02:32:51.520 --> 02:33:06.160
where would they park exactly? How long would they operate? And would generators be allowed? Will fire trucks be able to travel on London Street unimpeded? These questions relate to noise, air quality, and emergency vehicle circulation. Trash

474
02:33:06.160 --> 02:33:22.479
management. When events are held, how will garbage be handled? Will there be a commercial dumpster? And where will it be located? How often would waste be collected? Without a clear waste management plan, neighboring properties could be exposed to past environment

475
02:33:22.479 --> 02:33:39.040
issues. Who bears responsibility if that occurs? Occupancy and event scale. Uh we've already been told there's room for 190 standing. Uh we've also been told that outdoor gatherings will be permitted. How many people will be

476
02:33:39.040 --> 02:33:55.840
allowed on the property lot as a both inside and out? Without defining limits, this could effectively operate as a much larger event space. Noise. If the building is used for private events, will amplified music be permitted? What are the proposed operating hours? Will

477
02:33:55.840 --> 02:34:12.800
there be a firm closing time? And lastly, alcohol. Will alcohol be permitted on the premises and how will it be enforced if it's not? Again, I'm not opposed to improvements to the tennis club. I'm simply asking the board to ensure that if approved, this application includes clear and

478
02:34:12.800 --> 02:34:29.600
enforcable limits on capacity, hours, lighting, parking, and event use so that residential character of the neighborhood is. >> Thank you. >> I have no questions about this.

479
02:34:30.000 --> 02:34:50.720
Great. >> Oh, sorry. >> The truth. The whole truth, not the truth. >> Yes, I do. >> Name and address. >> Michael Schneider, 438 Wyoming Avenue. Um, I have some exhibits. Do you submit? >> Yeah. >> First heard before. Let's first take a

480
02:34:50.720 --> 02:35:10.160
look at them. >> Certainly have three copies. These are >> I just need to take a look at one copy. Wait, before I before we let me just look at them first just for a second just to make sure that they're appropriate. >> So I I assume these are photographs of

481
02:35:10.160 --> 02:35:27.040
Lynen Street and the surrounding areas. >> That is correct. They're taken either in front of the club directly or on Wyoming Avenue, the intersection. So So what we're going to do is we're going to mark this as 03. I'm going to keep this one

482
02:35:27.040 --> 02:36:00.319
But show this. >> They were all intended. >> No, no, no. Hold on. You're going to show this to Mr. >> Certainly has an opportunity to look at them. >> Yeah, they're hold Okay. So, you can

483
02:36:00.319 --> 02:36:17.760
>> give those to Regina right there. >> Thank you. >> You guys. >> Okay. So, you have presented the board um Mr. Murphy's reviewed them um a series of four, five, six, seven, eight, nine

484
02:36:17.760 --> 02:36:34.640
photographs, give or take. Right. We marked at 03 with today's date. Um, first of all, did you take these photographs yourself? >> Yes, I did. >> Okay. Did you take them on the dates and times that are are noted on each one of

485
02:36:34.640 --> 02:36:50.640
these uh nine photos? >> Yes, I did. I rounded to I believe to the five minutes or the 10 minutes in order to make it legible. So, the entire time stamp is not there, but they are >> within five minutes. >> Within five minutes. Absolutely. >> Okay. and and do they accurately uh

486
02:36:50.640 --> 02:37:07.520
reflect what you saw with your own two eyes at the time you took your photograph? >> Yes, they're on. >> So, why don't you go through these photographs and explain what the purpose or relevancy is of presenting these? >> Okay. So, the photographs I believe show

487
02:37:07.520 --> 02:37:23.439
that there is already an intensification of use of the club just with the tennis use alone, never mind the building rental. Uh the photos are taken at various hours. They're taken on um uh they're taken, you know, obviously when

488
02:37:23.439 --> 02:37:37.840
the uh the church across the street is not operating. Uh some of them are in September. So the church is operating, but if you look at the time, you can see that uh they are not uh related to church activities. Uh the church does

489
02:37:37.840 --> 02:37:53.920
have its own parking. Uh but as you can see also there are no sidewalks. Uh there's nothing. It's just uh uh you know it's just driveways and the street where the parking occurs. >> Okay. So you have to identify because you don't do them in the photographs

490
02:37:53.920 --> 02:38:08.880
because they're now in evidence. >> What um for each one what are we looking at? In other words, where are you standing when you take the photograph? What's the street? >> If I have a copy, I'd be glad to do that. It's very difficult.

491
02:38:08.880 --> 02:38:32.720
Thank you. Okay. Uh so page one is taken from the corner of Wyoming and Lisbon. Uh you can see uh the corner of the roof of my garage in the upper right

492
02:38:32.720 --> 02:38:52.560
and uh the club. Oh, sorry. It's the corner of the club. My apologies. And you can see the tennis court on the right. So, this is a view down Lynon Street from Wyoming. Uh, on page two,

493
02:38:52.560 --> 02:39:14.160
uh, this is the view of parking on uh, Wyoming Avenue leading uh, looking north at the time this club is in operation. on page three. Uh >> well, the the the club

494
02:39:14.160 --> 02:39:30.319
was not Was the club in operation >> on July 13th, 2025 at 10 a.m.? >> Yes, absolutely. >> How about church? >> H >> church. I'm sorry. >> Sunday 10:00 a.m. The church is that operation as well? >> Yes, it was. >> Okay. So, are you testifying that there

495
02:39:30.319 --> 02:39:46.560
were people on the courts at that time? Yes. They're not in the picture. >> I'm sorry. >> Because they are not in picture. No, they are not. >> You said the club's in operation, >> but this shows >> Oh, I'm sorry. The the in none of these pictures are there actually pictures of

496
02:39:46.560 --> 02:40:02.319
people on the court. It's not possible to take a picture. The the court is below street level. >> You were testifying for us that the club was in operation and you walked over. There were people on the courts and you walked over and took pictures of the street. >> That is correct. That is correct. That is what I'm testifying to. It's it's

497
02:40:02.319 --> 02:40:18.880
virtually impossible to take a picture of the court and the street. said, "I want to make sure what's in the picture versus what is your state." >> Understood. >> How much of that traffic? >> That's how much how much I'm assuming. I'm not assuming. I should

498
02:40:18.880 --> 02:40:33.520
not assume. >> I will not assume you. >> You're a professional traffic engineer. >> I'm a professional car counter. >> I accept your qualification as a car counter. Yes. Um, are you uh so are you

499
02:40:33.520 --> 02:40:49.600
saying the church was in service at that time? >> Uh, for the purposes of the items labeled Sunday 10:00 a.m. I would say yes. >> You know how many of those cars were >> just general?

500
02:40:49.600 --> 02:41:05.840
Okay. Thank you. >> Uh, so if you like we can skip the Sunday morning. >> Yeah, let's do that. It's very hard for us to determine. >> Certainly. Um, >> and these are all of these are all of Lynon Street.

501
02:41:05.840 --> 02:41:21.600
>> These are Yeah, these are all of Lynon Street. So, Thursday at 8 a.m. >> This is in July when the church is not operating its daycare. >> So, are you are you is there a position that there's an intensification of the tennis court use? >> Yes. >> And how would you how would there be an

502
02:41:21.600 --> 02:41:37.280
intensification? There's how many courts? >> There's two courts. Two courts. >> Are more people playing on those courts at the same time? I'm I'm trying I'm having a hard time understanding how this the the specific traffic or parking count at a specific time would increase

503
02:41:37.280 --> 02:41:53.120
if there's only two courts. How does that increase? >> Are there people are there people waiting to play? Are there >> No. So, normally this is a good question. So, normally this is a residential area where you would see perhaps one or two cars

504
02:41:53.120 --> 02:42:09.680
>> uh on Thursday at 8 a.m. >> Okay. >> In July. So you're playing saying more people are playing tennis. >> Yes. >> Oh yes. So you have two courts. I frequently see doubles playing. Uh I frequently see instructors. There have been instructions of uh you know

505
02:42:09.680 --> 02:42:26.319
children. Uh so yes, there's a >> And you're saying that the the use as it is and as it's historically been >> since it's been a tennis club since 1925 >> uh or that clubhouse was built in 1925 was a tennis club before that is you

506
02:42:26.319 --> 02:42:43.439
have some evidence that there's been more use now than there was at that time. I cannot testify to 1925 obviously 70 but but I I can testify from 2012 uh when I moved into the neighborhood that this is a vast increase in use just with

507
02:42:43.439 --> 02:43:03.280
the courts open. >> Uh do you have pictures or evidence of people using those courts more often? >> Uh no I did not feel right to take pictures of people playing tennis. Um, so there's a photograph uh on 7:17 Thursday, 7:24 Thursday. This is when I

508
02:43:03.280 --> 02:43:18.240
walk my dog typically. >> So you're talking about the photos Thursday 7:1725 at 8 a.m. >> Correct. That is a view again. And this is a view of the on the right there's a view of the tennis club >> and this is along Lynon

509
02:43:18.240 --> 02:43:33.920
>> along Lynon looking uh east from Wyoming downhill from Wyoming. >> Okay. >> Right. Um following is the next Thursday when I was walking my dog. >> Thursday 7:242 at 9:00 a.m.

510
02:43:33.920 --> 02:43:50.479
>> at 9:00 a.m. Uh following that is Thursday 8:14. I don't know. My favorite Thursdays. >> Uh also at 9:00 am when I walk my dog. Uh again, this is not when the club uh sorry, the club when the church uh nursery is an operation.

511
02:43:50.479 --> 02:44:08.319
>> You don't you're not aware of there being any specific thing that happens on Thursday morning. >> Um no, no, but not all of these are on Thursday. Here is a Friday, September 12th and I think I started from the very beginning

512
02:44:08.319 --> 02:44:26.880
on Friday uh July 11th. So this is not a perfect. >> So so your your point as Mr. Murphy appropriately asked you is that the number of vehicles parked along Lynen um has increased since the merger with the

513
02:44:26.880 --> 02:44:41.680
Maplewood Tennis Club >> noticeably. When you say noticeably, what do you mean by that? >> I mean we went from the car of the caretaker of the church who parked uh right near my driveway uh and perhaps

514
02:44:41.680 --> 02:44:59.439
one other car uh on regular days uh Sundays, you know, notwithstanding uh to what you see before you. >> And what about when you said you moved in in 2012? >> Yes. >> Okay. So from 2012 to 2021

515
02:44:59.439 --> 02:45:15.520
>> um >> what was your observations as just generally as to cars parked along window? >> Uh very very occasional use. Uh as Kathy mentioned before me when there was a party in the evening which were few and far between there would be some parking.

516
02:45:15.520 --> 02:45:31.279
Uh that was one of the trade-offs of living next to a quiet neighborhood tennis club and it was you know very well tolerated. Sometimes there would be a crowd, but generally speaking, there would be uh I would rarely see both courts used at the same time. It was an

517
02:45:31.279 --> 02:45:51.680
anomaly. And this is supported by, you know, the their own evidence that uh the club was in uh you know, very mild use at that time. >> Anything further? Uh, I want I had a

518
02:45:51.680 --> 02:46:07.439
statement to read be before we went on the uh letter riff. >> All right, I'll I'll be as quick as I can and uh you know, forgive me. I'll scan through this and try to make it as short as possible. I'm not going to say everything I intended. Uh, so obviously you know my name, you know that I've

519
02:46:07.439 --> 02:46:23.439
lived at I've lived at 438 Wyoming Avenue since 2012. Um, I do support the reasonable repair and renovation of the existing clubhouse. I have nothing against it. I've loved them as neighbors, you know, forever. Uh, this property has long operated as a neighborhood tennis club. I understand

520
02:46:23.439 --> 02:46:39.840
the applicants is presenting this as a renovation. Uh, not as a new principal use. Uh, my concern is that an approval here could be interpreted too broadly and used to justify an expansion of activity. Uh, that would materially affect our residential neighborhood beyond the inclusion of members from

521
02:46:39.840 --> 02:46:56.479
other towns. Uh, based on the history of this application, the applicant's own earlier concepts. I believe it is critical that any approval be narrowly limited so that that remains a tennis club property and does not evolve into a commercial gathering space or a party venue. Uh for that reason, I

522
02:46:56.479 --> 02:47:12.560
respectfully ask the board to impose several clear and enforceable conditions. I won't go through them, but they're related to uh no expansion intensification, uh no outdoor court lighting, uh no pickle ball, uh no amplified outdoor sound, uh meaningful

523
02:47:12.560 --> 02:47:27.359
drainage protections for my neighbors down the hill. I'm uphill, so I don't really care, but I care about my neighbors. >> Um uh and finally, uh the I I covered the uh parking and

524
02:47:27.359 --> 02:47:43.760
traffic protections. Uh the club does not have a parking lot or a driveway. There's also a church directly across the street without a also without a parking lot uh and I believe without a driveway and with its own rental space already. So they have a rental space at the church uh and daycare uses on a

525
02:47:43.760 --> 02:48:01.120
street with no sidewalks at all. Uh so I brought the photos, you saw them, they span several months which show what the current use already. Cars crowd the street. They block pedestrians. Uh I was near accidents. Uh, you know, my house is, you know, just outside of the

526
02:48:01.120 --> 02:48:16.399
pictures. So, I've near narrowly avoided accidents coming out of my own driveway because the street is blocked. You barely have room to come out. Um, if the use is intensified, these parking uh, traffic and safety problems will get worse. Uh, this is not speculation. It's

527
02:48:16.399 --> 02:48:33.760
happening now. Uh so basically if relief is granted it should be limited strictly to what is before the board uh with clear conditions that protect our neighborhood and prevent this non-conforming use from expanding by degrees.

528
02:48:33.760 --> 02:48:49.200
>> That's all I have. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Sorry for the excessive time. >> Thank you. >> Swear you in and what's your name and address? >> Raise your right hand. You swer from testimony gift in this proceedings. Speed of truth. Tell the truth.

529
02:48:49.200 --> 02:49:08.120
>> I do. >> Your name for the record. >> Courtney, 57 Lyndon Street. >> 57 >> Lynon Street. I also have one photo to share. Should I bring it to you? >> Sure. >> It's one photo, but not

530
02:49:09.760 --> 02:49:25.960
>> these are different sizes, but they're they're all the same photo. Well, let's take the big photo and first of all, why don't you take mediumsiz one and show it to Mr. Murphy?

531
02:49:28.080 --> 02:49:53.359
No objections. >> I have no objections. >> Okay. Thank you. So, we're going to park this photo as 04 with today's date. Go right ahead. >> Okay. Um, so hi again. My name is

532
02:49:53.359 --> 02:50:08.319
Courtney Brand. I live at 57 Lynon Street, which is directly across the street from Tennis Club. Uh, we moved, my family moved there this past July. Um, I live there with my husband, our two sons. We have a 2-year-old, and then Isaac, our three-month-old, and also our

533
02:50:08.319 --> 02:50:25.840
dog. Um, we really enjoy having a tennis club as our neighbors. Um, and are supportive of updated club pass for members use. However, we want to make sure two things. One, it's related to traffic and parking. I want to ensure that the club is not used as a commercial event space. Um, that will

534
02:50:25.840 --> 02:50:41.359
lead to more traffic on the street. As some have stated, in addition to the tennis club, there's also a church on the street that has the preschool with multiple pickup and drop off times throughout the day. Um the preschool regular Sunday service and other church activities bring many cars to both

535
02:50:41.359 --> 02:50:58.560
Wyoming and London streets. This is a photo taken on uh a weekday at 9:00 a.m. This was taken during the winter time. So this >> um just for one second. Um what's the date this photo was taken?

536
02:50:58.560 --> 02:51:21.520
>> February 26, 2026. >> February 26, 2026. Okay. And what where is it taken from? >> And what does it show? >> It shows uh you're looking directly at the tennis club which is across the

537
02:51:21.520 --> 02:51:38.319
street. So it's on street. >> And what time was this photo taken? >> 9:00 a.m. >> Do you recall what day that was? >> The day of the week. also Thursday, >> but this is very this is every day of

538
02:51:38.319 --> 02:51:55.520
the week. >> Thursday when we got our act together, >> okay. >> Um, so this is a photo again of just a typical weekday. Um, and this is taken during the winter time when the tennis courts are not even open to the public

539
02:51:55.520 --> 02:52:10.399
and you can already see it pretty hectic. Um, what you can't see in the photo is on our side of the street there's actually a no parking sign. So despite that sign, people are constantly illegally parked there already. Um, and that's from all like trial. >> What do you attribute this to? Like what

540
02:52:10.399 --> 02:52:27.120
what is going on that that's >> that's so that's no tennis courts are open. This is primarily pickup drop off school. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Um >> and yes, there's a no parking sign on our side of the street. Often no one

541
02:52:27.120 --> 02:52:44.720
respects that. Um and again this is taken during winter months when the tennis club is not even open. Now the tennis club is in season again and so we're seeing more cars related to club activity as well. Um so when we go for a lot of walks we have a dog with two kids. Um there's no

542
02:52:44.720 --> 02:52:59.120
sidewalk on our street as some people have mentioned and I'm really worried about any additional traffic both for our family other families on the street but also the preschoolers who are constantly crossing the street to get to their daycare every day. Um, so that's my first concern. My second is related

543
02:52:59.120 --> 02:53:16.240
to light and sound pollution. Um, I want to make sure that nothing is added in terms of light or sound pollution. This is especially important for a family with young kids who go to sleep early and not during the day. So do their tired parents. Um, and I want to make sure that my family can sleep in peace

544
02:53:16.240 --> 02:53:32.960
and quiet and not have bright lights and loud noises. I also want to make sure that we can play in our backyard without loud noises as well. Um, so this means no nightlighting, no amplified outdoor sound. Um, speaking a little bit off the cuff from what I've heard today, I think if the question is intensification of

545
02:53:32.960 --> 02:53:48.640
use, right now there's no events happening in the clubhouse and this street already looks the way it does. So, it makes me really nervous to hear that we have 40 events a week similar to the maple club or more because it's open to the public and they're advertising and 150 people can be hosting the space

546
02:53:48.640 --> 02:54:04.080
plus outdoor space plus vendors that we just don't have the space to do directly. Um, so to conclude, my family is not opposed to updates to the clubhouse. We want to make sure the code is being transparent and also held accountable for the changes and that those changes don't lead to additional

547
02:54:04.080 --> 02:54:20.080
traffic parking that will make our streets dangerous and also noise pollution. And I hope that the board will consider these conditions to keep our street safe while also allowing patterns. >> Thank you councelor. I have no

548
02:54:20.080 --> 02:54:36.960
next. Excuse me. Sorry. One thing uh application uh 406725. I told you to hang out. That's 51 Chestnut. We're not going to hear you. So, um Mike, could you come on

549
02:54:36.960 --> 02:55:03.680
down? Whoever's involved with that one. Sorry about that, but I was I was optimistic. I mean, you want to do the same. >> Um, >> are we at back the pack because we waited? >> No, no, no, not at all. I I would try to

550
02:55:03.680 --> 02:55:22.000
get for sake. >> You're doing the June or the 22nd. Is that available? Not if it was small, two, four, five,

551
02:55:22.000 --> 02:55:39.040
which is >> in February. >> Yeah, we started our application in February and we were scheduled to present to this at this meeting first on the agenda tonight. >> Well, I understand what you're saying, but you already had a shot, right? That doesn't mean your second shot gets to be

552
02:55:39.040 --> 02:55:57.240
moved to the front of the line. So, doesn't really work that way. So, what's the next thing we got? And by the way, this is this is not great. I I understand I it's we've been waiting months.

553
02:56:04.240 --> 02:56:34.800
>> What are you gentlemen available or Sorry, Joe. You said July 20th or August 3rd. >> Hi. >> I'm pretty sure I'm not around. >> Sorry. You're around. >> I'm not around. >> You're not around. >> We're going to be out.

554
02:56:34.800 --> 02:56:49.359
>> Okay. So, what was it? >> Was the day before? Did you do it or no? July or not? >> July 20th. >> Yeah, I could I can try to If everyone else can make it, I'll try to >> No. Well, is there an earlier >> August? They're out of They're out of

555
02:56:49.359 --> 02:57:04.800
>> Yeah, but July 20th. >> Does that work for you guys or No, >> July 20th. >> Yeah. >> Well, yeah. You might as well take the date and figure it out. >> Is there Is there no earlier date?

556
02:57:04.800 --> 02:57:21.600
Not for >> No, you have a rather comprehensive application. >> I think we'll do July 20th. July 20th. Okay. Um, uh, calendar 486725 will be moved to July 20th. No further

557
02:57:21.600 --> 02:57:38.560
notice. Um, so if you're here on that application, that's when that will be heard. Sorry for interrupting. Do do you swear upon testimony about the night? >> Do you have your voice on your name and

558
02:57:38.560 --> 02:57:54.399
address? >> My name is Judith Christian, 435 Wyoming Avenue, >> which is directly across the street from the Presbyterian Church. I'm on the corner of Lynon and Wyoming. I have

559
02:57:54.399 --> 02:58:30.080
sorry only one copy of photos. Okay, we're at this before I hand these over. Um, when did you take these photographs? on September 3rd, 2025 around 9:00 a.m.

560
02:58:30.080 --> 02:58:52.240
>> Yes. >> Because there's no Well, first let's do this. >> I'm sorry, guys. >> Some seven photographs before I

561
02:58:52.240 --> 02:59:11.840
mark them copy. I'm gonna ask Mr. Murphy have him take a look at them and see if he has any opposition to that. >> Thursday. What time? >> 9:00 a.m. She said if you look at the first >> Was it really a Thursday? >> I don't

562
02:59:11.840 --> 02:59:39.319
see paying attention. Wednesday. >> Wednesday. >> More photos. >> I need more Thursday photos. All right. So, >> um, where's this is going to be 05.

563
02:59:46.800 --> 03:00:03.120
Okay. So, I'm going to show this to all the board members as you describe what 0 05 is a series of seven photographs and they were taken all on the same date and approximately around the same time. >> Correct. >> And they and they accurately depict what

564
03:00:03.120 --> 03:00:20.080
you saw of your own two eyes and you took the photographs. >> Yes. >> Okay. And since we don't have Do you need the photographs back to describe what they are? I do not need them back. >> But but you need to testify as to them,

565
03:00:20.080 --> 03:00:35.359
>> right? >> But do you need them back for the time being so you can That's my fault. So you can testify to them. >> I do not. Um my comments are general um in the fact that they all are the intersection of Wyoming and Lynon Street and that's

566
03:00:35.359 --> 03:00:53.520
>> okay. Okay. And I'm not um I'm not present presenting the photos to show um an intensity of um parking due to the tennis club. I'm only showing them to show how

567
03:00:53.520 --> 03:01:11.520
intense the parking is already um around the 9:00 a.m. hour. Um, Wyoming and Lynen every Monday through Thursday morning and at and in the

568
03:01:11.520 --> 03:01:26.080
afternoon is intensely parked up and parents drop off and pick up the children from the open door nursery school. And during those times and during the Sunday church services, it's very difficult to safely

569
03:01:26.080 --> 03:01:43.040
turn from upper Lyndon or lower Lynon onto Wyoming. Um, it's even difficult to get out our own driveways. Um, just as way of background kind of mix things up a little bit. My family

570
03:01:43.040 --> 03:01:59.120
moved into that house at Fort Wyoming when I was in third grade. So, um, and I escaped in about 1972. I'm 71 now and I've been back since I was about 45.

571
03:01:59.120 --> 03:02:15.760
So, so for when did you last move back into the house? Like >> about 30 71 minus 45. Um, that was >> 26. >> Thank you.

572
03:02:15.760 --> 03:02:35.600
>> So, so, so around the year 2000. >> Yes. >> Go ahead. So I I just want to give you know that kind of background to just give you an idea of the neighborhood um and the nature of the residential

573
03:02:35.600 --> 03:02:50.960
neighborhood now and our concerns about an increase of use of not necessarily the tennis courts there two courts but of any other kind of events. Now um I was never a member

574
03:02:50.960 --> 03:03:08.160
of the Wyoming club. In fact, when I was young and my sister asked could we join the club told you join anything that doesn't let everyone in. So, I was never a member, but I have been there

575
03:03:08.160 --> 03:03:24.800
and I see very over the years I saw very little. There were parties. I know Kathy's my neighbor. I know there were they have little events, maybe birthday, but nothing like a rental kind

576
03:03:24.800 --> 03:03:40.319
of um situation for a wedding or anything like that that I I'm just telling you because I'm see the parking. they would be parking on Upper Lynon Street if there were big events and it

577
03:03:40.319 --> 03:03:56.560
just didn't My concern is about um any intensification of use of the tennis club building um to go back to the parking I don't know where people would

578
03:03:56.560 --> 03:04:13.920
park if the task club maybe had a tournament on Sunday or if they're going going to come to play tennis during the morning hours when during nursery school drop off. In fact, most of the people have to

579
03:04:13.920 --> 03:04:30.160
park down in Lower London because uh it's so unsafe crossing Wyoming Avenue, which is another issue. Um my concern is safety. I requested that the eight zers be painted by the county last year to

580
03:04:30.160 --> 03:04:48.479
enable people in the Wyoming section to cross Wyoming Avenue and it was done yet to cross Wyoming Avenue and Lynon Street is still unsafe. Also, it's always been my understanding um since third grade that Upper Linden

581
03:04:48.479 --> 03:05:05.760
was traditionally used by the fire department to gain access to Sackmore and streets up there in case of a fire. My concern too is if there would be an event where you have these large SUVs parked on both sides of Upper Luden

582
03:05:05.760 --> 03:05:22.800
Street that the bar truck would not be able to make the turn. And that is a very legitimate concern. It could happen. We don't um and uh

583
03:05:22.800 --> 03:05:37.520
some of these concerns I think could be addressed by a hearing and a few a full plan site review. Um, we need to know details about the uses of the club and um, the limitations.

584
03:05:37.520 --> 03:05:53.920
Um, and are just requesting that it be looked at very carefully because Wyoming Avenue itself has become a highway. There's so many cars. It's very dangerous. and we would like you to help us keep

585
03:05:53.920 --> 03:06:10.800
our neighborhood safely and peacefully residential, which it is not. Also, just to tell you that what Michael said is very true. I don't I don't know why suddenly all one side of Lower Ling is

586
03:06:10.800 --> 03:06:26.800
parked up almost every day. I mean, I go out, I work in the yard and I see it. And not just nurseries full time, but there are cars from almost Michael's driveway all the way down. And I don't know if they're people

587
03:06:26.800 --> 03:06:44.160
playing tennis, but I'm just saying I see the cards there. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Questions? >> Yes. >> No, no questions. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Next. >> Next. >> David Jacobs. You swore up from testimony about to

588
03:06:44.160 --> 03:07:00.399
give and proceed treat. >> Yes. >> Your name and address. >> David Jacobs. 52 Len Street. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm sorry Jacobs. >> Sorry. >> What's the address? >> 52 L Street. >> I apologize.

589
03:07:00.399 --> 03:07:16.240
>> Um, I just want to give some perspective because I'm probably the person with the most uh yard and house exposed to the club. My property runs endline to end line on the uh it would be the east side. So you

590
03:07:16.240 --> 03:07:31.200
have the club up there and then I'm I'm in a tutor house with the driveway. Um every single window of my house faces tennis club, >> right? My door is maybe 8 feet from the

591
03:07:31.200 --> 03:07:49.600
tennis court. I hear everyone playing on the tennis court. Now I'm a tennis player, so I'm happy to hear them play. it feel it's it's it's wonderful to hear people recreate. Um, so I'm particularly sensitive to what's going on. Number one on my list is the the facility is a

592
03:07:49.600 --> 03:08:06.960
disaster. All right. I spent time, effort, as we all do in in working on my house. Thank you. You gave me the approval to uh to to get a little variance so that we could do more with this 1910 house. It opened the same 1913. that opened the same year as

593
03:08:06.960 --> 03:08:21.920
tennis court there. Um, and I did a lot of research on it and the place is really a mess. All right. It's an eyesore. For five years that I've been living there, I've been looking across at an orange portaotti, a gray

594
03:08:21.920 --> 03:08:39.120
portaotti, a blue portaotti. What other porta potty colors do we have? Right. >> Right. It's been it's really an eyesore. The facility itself on the outside is an embarrassment. It's it's an embarrassment because someone at some point could have done something with it,

595
03:08:39.120 --> 03:08:56.319
but it really is just a 1925 seers the robot house that arrived on a train. So, they've done the best they can. So, here we are and we're talking about the property and we're talking about fixing the place, right? And there are a lot of issues and neighbors, I agree with you

596
03:08:56.319 --> 03:09:12.479
on tons of them. I mean, because I hear everything every day. If there's anything going on, I'm the first to see it. Um, and what I can say is there are two parts to this. Number one, the club, no, I haven't heard tonight anyone really say that the that the structure

597
03:09:12.479 --> 03:09:29.279
doesn't need to be fixed up. I think we're all in agreement. It's it's awful. And our street is very special. Our neighborhood, there's something unique about that little area of Wyoming in the history, the Williamsons, all the people that founded that area. It's fascinating. So, we want to maintain

598
03:09:29.279 --> 03:09:47.040
that. Um, so the issue that we're here tonight, I think, to deal with is how do we deal with getting the approval ultimately to do what Carolyn has in her plan to fix the place up. The secondary issues are, in my book, important and

599
03:09:47.040 --> 03:10:03.840
part of just living in the neighborhood and trying to figure out how to make it work. Okay. Selfishly, I joined the Maplewood Club for two reasons. One, I play tennis. Uh, and many years ago I didn't make it work. I live I I was part of the club and then I aged out, but I

600
03:10:03.840 --> 03:10:20.720
figure I'm retired now. Get things will. I did for two reasons. Number one, I like to play tennis. But number two, practically speaking, I really wanted to know what was going on and to get to know these people and to be able to have a say. And you may not like what I have

601
03:10:20.720 --> 03:10:37.359
to say, but they're good people. And part of a club and having clubs, having something go on for over hundred years is that they you have to have good people running it well. And they've done a magnificent job. I'm just going to say that. I wouldn't be part of it if I

602
03:10:37.359 --> 03:10:53.840
didn't think it was good. Um what they've done is they've taken a space that was thriving and a real part of the Lyon community for almost 7,500 years, but really fell apart. When I moved into the house, I did a deal with the neighborhood club to take down a tree.

603
03:10:53.840 --> 03:11:08.880
I'm sorry. I never wanted to take down that tree, but it was a problem. And it was cutting across the courts to give an idea. You had you had the um tree, the stump and all of its roots going right through. >> I'm I'll come.

604
03:11:08.880 --> 03:11:24.160
>> I have no objection. You keep talking. >> My point My point really is they worked with me. They wanted to fix it up. you just purchased the place, we shared in the expense and it worked out just fine. And what I've seen is a group of people

605
03:11:24.160 --> 03:11:39.600
that are constantly trying to fix themselves. So yeah, I think there's some real issues here. I think the parking stinks, but it doesn't stink just because of the club. That's that's additive. And from my point of view, it's being right there every day. It's a

606
03:11:39.600 --> 03:11:56.880
preschool and what's going on with the church, but we can deal with that. Um the parties, I'm nervous about that. I don't want to hear anything. But they have a right to have parties. The Short Hills Club stuff does. I lived across from the Short Hills Club before we moved there off the water. And I would

607
03:11:56.880 --> 03:12:13.760
listen to it and my head would pound. Sorry. >> Great. >> And then because I know he was involved and and then uh 11:00 it would all stop. It was managed. It was managed pretty well. My understanding and what I've seen of the club in England is that they

608
03:12:13.760 --> 03:12:29.520
manage their events very well. They do. They're really good at it. And I in my experience so far, their objective in fixing this place has not been on a commercial basis to, you know, advertise and get people in. It's to service their

609
03:12:29.520 --> 03:12:46.479
mentors and to make a few bucks where they can. But to understand the scope and the difference, the club is much bigger over at building. Any major events can happen there. So I think it's a little bit we can talk about restrictions on the club if there's

610
03:12:46.479 --> 03:13:01.840
however you do that, but I think it's more about the club being a neighbor and be a you know we I suggested to the club and they did it last week. They got like seven of us together. We talked about what our wishes were. to me that's being

611
03:13:01.840 --> 03:13:18.160
a good leader and that's working it out and working within the guidelines town and the and and the uh and their charge. So I think that it's a problem you're going to have issues with the place but I don't see the intent here to build

612
03:13:18.160 --> 03:13:33.840
this thing. I frankly I talked to the people blessings there. They want to go to the bathroom people want to use the club to go inside. So from my perspective, I think the the big issue is let's get this club refurbished. That's important. And then let's figure

613
03:13:33.840 --> 03:13:50.520
out a way as a group neighbors to put together with the neighborhood club to sort out these issues because I think that's that's the only way forward. Thank you. >> Thank you. Any questions? >> Thank you.

614
03:13:50.800 --> 03:14:06.880
>> Testimony about the states the whole treatment of truth. >> Yeah. your name matches for the record. >> Maple Shaw, 57 Chestnut Street. I'm not going to try to be longwinded on a wildfire. Um, ultimately, right, use to me has still not been defined. I have no idea what's going to happen at this

615
03:14:06.880 --> 03:14:23.120
club. It's a concern, right? I understand they have great intentions to, you know, make sure that parties end by 11, but that's never been our experience living there for 15 years. You've had parties going till 1:00 a.m., 2 a.m., 3:00 a.m. It's horrible, right?

616
03:14:23.120 --> 03:14:38.800
We want to make sure that this club operates within the community as a part of the community. We do not want this thing to disappear. We want it to be fixed. We just don't want it to be managed. Right. Um that's all I'm asking for really is just to make sure that

617
03:14:38.800 --> 03:14:55.200
this thing is looked at holistically, you know, and that we we integrate into the community. Correct. >> Thank you. Thank you. No questions. You swear from testimony you have the health chair please proceed.

618
03:14:55.200 --> 03:15:15.120
>> I do James Gilson 44 Wyoming. >> Uh I'll be very brief. Uh a couple things. I think the neighborhood you saw the neighborhood a number of times. Uh we we are interested in the club being

619
03:15:15.120 --> 03:15:30.479
refurbished without a doubt. It is part of the fabric of our neighborhood. Fantastic neighborhood. We've been there for since ' 87. Families have been there for a long time. The turnover isn't really great, really high. They tend to stay. Kids

620
03:15:30.479 --> 03:15:46.960
walk to the school. You know, it's beautiful seeing them just walking up the sidewalk. Very nice. What uh towards that end and it was alluded that we're invited to a meeting uh with two two of the club members, Mary and Bob. Very helpful. And there

621
03:15:46.960 --> 03:16:04.560
were a few things we did discuss uh and Mike Mike Schneider uh had had alluded to them. We had asked question are there going to be lights? The answer at that meeting was no lights. We asked if there's going to be pickle ball. The answer was no. Never. That that was very

622
03:16:04.560 --> 03:16:20.000
encouraging. We love that. We asked if the green area in the back would ever be developed and the answer was no. Um so those those are very important, you know. The concern I have is um

623
03:16:20.000 --> 03:16:36.560
the intentions are are very clear right now down the future which alluded to what's what will happen have a new management you have a new group leaving um future any additional development of the property itself is going to rip away the fabric I believe of the

624
03:16:36.560 --> 03:16:52.720
neighborhood. It's not going to be that very quiet looking residential neighborhood tennis club any longer. It'll be something else. So I would like and it was alluded to again by by Mike some others of having some conditions if

625
03:16:52.720 --> 03:17:08.479
it's possible on approval relative to some of those issues we talked about the lights future development of pickle balls and you know things of that nature and if development can be limited that would be very helpful and u the other

626
03:17:08.479 --> 03:17:24.239
issues of of parking is is a great concern. I my experience is there are more cars that now park in front of the the tennis courts when during the weekday because there's more cars driving there than it used to be because they're more out of town

627
03:17:24.239 --> 03:17:40.960
folks. That's fine. U it's a different group that own it. I recognize that and that's okay. But uh we really would like to find a way to formalize some limit of development that that can be in order to maintain the fabric in the context of

628
03:17:40.960 --> 03:17:56.880
the community development that we have there as a task force. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I know he spoke before but Kathy Gilson just really I just wait well on let her swear again please. You swear from

629
03:17:56.880 --> 03:18:12.640
testimony about the you told you >> I do. Kathy Gillson, 444 Wyoming Avenue. Um, I just wanted to briefly say one one of the speakers had said that the club has the right to have parties and all. I totally agree with

630
03:18:12.640 --> 03:18:27.439
that, but what I don't feel they have the right to because historically it has never been, is to be a commercial rental venue. And so I just would please ask you that if it's going to continue as what it it was established as way back

631
03:18:27.439 --> 03:18:44.720
in the day and that it it was used as that's great but let's not allow it to say it's always been a public rental venue and to then continue which it never has been. That's all I ask. So yes, they have the right to have

632
03:18:44.720 --> 03:19:01.040
everything that the tennis club has but not to be a public rental then. Thank you. Any further comment, you want to sum up? >> Um, I wanted to maybe speak to council separately. We take a two-minut break,

633
03:19:01.040 --> 03:22:34.600
but is that okay? >> Two minutes. >> Two minutes. Two minutes. What's You want to go? What's that? >> You know, the metro system, but I still think it's

634
03:22:42.239 --> 03:26:33.120
Where is he at? >> Yeah. I'll give it a I'm sorry. That's funny. so much. It's kind of simulator. >> Thank you.

635
03:26:33.120 --> 03:26:48.640
>> Go ahead, counselor. Um, thank you. Thanks the board and thanks to everybody who came out in the public. Um, I've spoken to my client. We would like to adjourn this. We'd like a moment to go back, review what our plan was, clarify some things, come back before this board. I believe the date is in July and

636
03:26:48.640 --> 03:27:05.200
present something that I think will be acceptable to everybody. >> So, >> okay. I guess my question is they're coming back, >> correct? on this same application which appeal. >> Yeah, they they have the right to ask

637
03:27:05.200 --> 03:27:30.560
for an adjournment. Couple things. First of all, when does the 120 days run on the appeal? >> So, can I grab this for a second? >> We'll agree to an extension of that, >> right? So, so let's just whatever it is, you're going to agree to an extension

638
03:27:30.560 --> 03:27:46.160
through the end of July. All right. Correct. And what's the new date in July? >> July 20th. >> July 20th. Okay. And so this to July 20th for this application is

639
03:27:46.160 --> 03:28:03.439
just the application pursuant to 40 55D-70A of the municipal land use law. um and that if it's just a continuation of this application, no further notice would be required of the applicant. Should the

640
03:28:03.439 --> 03:28:18.720
applicant decide without prejudice to the applicant to renotice to include um additional or alternative relief that they may want the board to grant, they

641
03:28:18.720 --> 03:28:34.800
certainly have the right to do that. Um and you the the members of the public would be noticed accordingly and any supplement um or modification to the 70A application

642
03:28:34.800 --> 03:28:51.840
um would have to be filed with the board at least 10 days prior to the hearing and noted provided in accordance with municipal land use law and other in great counsel. >> I do great

643
03:28:51.840 --> 03:29:07.439
So, are interested July 20th is the date. Thanks for coming to see >> Oh, yeah. Milford Public Library. No longer here. >> And And what is the address in public? >> 200 Glenn Avenue for those who are unaware. Um, thank you for coming this

644
03:29:07.439 --> 03:29:43.920
evening. >> Safe travels. Next hearing, next case we're going to hear this evening. Application is calendar 4726, >> 9 Park Circle applicant Ryan. >> One second. If you guys could pick it up,

645
03:29:43.920 --> 03:30:44.080
we can start. Thank you. We have a couple of Great. How are >> you? Behind the screen. >> I'm giving you Right. >> That door can stay open by the way.

646
03:30:44.080 --> 03:31:34.960
Thank you. Okay. >> Okay. Ready? Great evening members of the board. My name is Nicole Dory. I'm with the law firm of Paul. I'm here on behalf of the impellent buy the

647
03:31:34.960 --> 03:31:52.239
owner of seven park circle. Um this is an appeal from the grant of uh zoning and living permits issued for the construction of a single family dwelling at 9 park circle. Uh this is an appeal under the municipal land use law section 72 sections A and B. Um the issue is

648
03:31:52.239 --> 03:32:08.399
whether these permits were issued in compliance with Milorth Township zoning and drainage ordinances and um we'll try to make it quick but um >> greatly appreciated >> um one professional here this evening um and the evidence that will show um there are three independent bases to reverse

649
03:32:08.399 --> 03:32:24.560
or rean these permits. The first being that the approved plan containing zoning nonconformities under ERZ section 606.2 or variance relief for redesign Uh secondly, the plans do not comply with chapter 17 and drainage requirements

650
03:32:24.560 --> 03:32:41.120
including storm water infiltration and dry well provisions. Um and third, the permit review failed to account for um groundwater consitions and a historic stream um that will material affect uh drainage design. So as I mentioned, I

651
03:32:41.120 --> 03:32:57.439
have one professional here, Mr. Resh Dargy. He's qualified both as a professional engineer and a professional planner. I Can we just interrupt for just one second? >> Yes. >> So, um

652
03:32:57.439 --> 03:33:14.239
you miss you've identified I just want to kind of focus this a little bit zoning nonconformities, drainage requirements and groundwater conditions and stream. So my understanding is that permits were issued for a single family

653
03:33:14.239 --> 03:33:31.120
home right development and this board of adjustment doesn't handle site plan applications as you know dealing with single family homes. is exempt both under the ordinance as well as municipal language law. Right? So we

654
03:33:31.120 --> 03:33:49.279
just call balls and strikes and handle variance issues. Right? And so what is the basis briefly if you won't mind or we get to the zoning wars which I get about how this board um has jurisdiction

655
03:33:49.279 --> 03:34:06.319
to review a what you perceive as a violation of chapter 7 drainage requirements and also groundwater conditions and stream because this board doesn't handle any of that dealing with single family homes. So, that's what I'm

656
03:34:06.319 --> 03:34:22.640
a little little confused about. I I get the zoning, which we can focus on for now, but if we're going to go into the other two, I figured it's important to for you to identify how this board has jurisdiction for those other two. >> Yes, Mr. Simon, and thank you for that

657
03:34:22.640 --> 03:34:38.479
point of clarification. Um this board uh does deal with traditional uh zoning uh uh applications and variances but it also deals with appeals and on decisions of township officials and in this case we have an appeal from the township uh

658
03:34:38.479 --> 03:34:56.520
zoning officer as well as township engineer from department for the property. So uh >> okay so so let me interrupt again I don't mean to be rude. Okay. So the what the statute actually says thank you.

659
03:35:02.800 --> 03:35:20.160
So hearing board of adjustment shall have the power to a this is under 70A. um hear and decide appeals where it is alleged by the appellant that there's error in any order, requirement, decision or refusal made by an

660
03:35:20.160 --> 03:35:35.439
administrative officer based or made in the enforcement of the zoning ordinance. Okay, so that's 70A zoning ordinance. So you need to deal with the zoning ordinance and it has to be by administrative officer believe zoning

661
03:35:35.439 --> 03:35:54.160
officer, right? So, you talked about um engineering review. So, I don't believe, unless you can tell me otherwise, and I will admit if I'm wrong, um, how this board would have jurisdiction under 70A

662
03:35:54.160 --> 03:36:10.960
to look at, you know, any appeal dealing with chapter 17 drainage requirements or groundwater conditions and stream based on what the municipal engineer, if that's who it is, whether he or she did or didn't make it make it an error or

663
03:36:10.960 --> 03:36:25.760
otherwise, as you allege. I don't believe under 78 the board has jurisdiction to do that. If the zoning officer says I don't think you need variances and you think that you do need variances, I think you're in the right place. Right. Not necessarily the right

664
03:36:25.760 --> 03:36:42.560
time, but in the right place. Um but in terms of um and the same thing 70B in terms of interpretation here and decide request for interpretation of a zoning map or ordinance zoning ordinance

665
03:36:42.560 --> 03:36:58.560
or for decisions upon other special questions um upon which this board is authorized to pass by any zoning or official map ordinance in accordance with this act. again and I understand very well the interplay as you know I did with regard

666
03:36:58.560 --> 03:37:15.920
to 7A and B. I also don't think that this board has the jurisdiction to hear anything relating to this the drainage requirements or groundwater conditions or streams um under under 70A or B. So

667
03:37:15.920 --> 03:37:31.040
if you just want to focus unless you tell me I'm wrong otherwise love to hear you regarding the zoning. Um well the the applicant's position is that the board has jurisdiction to hear this appeal not only because of the

668
03:37:31.040 --> 03:37:48.720
zoning nonques but also because of the uh uh storm water note is because this board is charged with enforcing the township ordinances when there are decisions made by township administrative officers such as zoning officer or the town of engineer.

669
03:37:48.720 --> 03:38:06.239
>> Where does it say that? And it's not in the statute. statute says that the board can hear appeals and decisions of administrative officers. >> It's zoning. It's zoning ordinance, right? >> Based on or made in the enforcement of the zoning ordinance. Chapter 17 isn't

670
03:38:06.239 --> 03:38:22.399
zoning ordinance. Groundwater conditions and stream is not zoning ordinance. And so >> chapter 17 provides the minimum standards for uh compliance with storm water requirements. >> Understood. So if there's a challenge to

671
03:38:22.399 --> 03:38:39.680
a decision made by the township engineer as to whether the those uh requirements have been met, this board is the only appellet board that uh a resident or an individual can apply to to challenge that decision. So um it's the applicant's position that this uh this

672
03:38:39.680 --> 03:38:58.479
board has jurisdiction to hear it appeal and this is the only venue for these concerns to be raised. >> Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you that I think you know you know where I'm going with this. Yeah. >> I I don't think that you have jurisdiction to consider appeal on a

673
03:38:58.479 --> 03:39:15.600
nonzoning ordinance or zoning. >> Furthermore, at best we're going to refer you back. >> Well, in any event, as I said before, it's the appellant's position that this board is the only board that we can challenge the decision of the administrative officer. So we would we

674
03:39:15.600 --> 03:39:30.479
have brought our uh professional >> but but where do you have proof that the municipal engineer is admin is the administrative officer that is import that is interpreting the zoning ordinance? >> The administrative uh the engineer has

675
03:39:30.479 --> 03:39:47.600
interpreted the uh chapter 7 drainage. >> It's not it's not in the zoning or well furthermore let's let's stop right here. Okay. If you're insisting on moving forward that way then we're carry this case till I get the engineer. sort. >> Okay. Because just so the records, I

676
03:39:47.600 --> 03:40:03.600
don't I don't believe that you even have jurisdiction. >> Probably not. But just making you aware if you want to push forward this way and push this testimony, understand that this isn't moving forward tonight. >> Okay. >> Because we're not qualified. bottom

677
03:40:03.600 --> 03:40:17.920
line. We we are not at all have the the proper knowledge of drainage or proper knowledge of any of us to be even adjudicated. And I said when these cases come up which we do hear people with drainage

678
03:40:17.920 --> 03:40:37.520
issues promptly refer to the engineering period. Um because we do not have jurisdiction to do it. >> Well um I understand your position. Um, we have brought our professional here this evening. We're prepared to proceed

679
03:40:37.520 --> 03:40:54.720
with our presentation and our professional is here to present testimony. So, I mean it's we'll >> we'll hear the testimony regarding the zoning, but I'm not going to hear testimony regarding water tonight. >> Yeah. I mean, further just

680
03:40:54.720 --> 03:41:11.359
section you're you're very familiar with section 18 of municipal land talks about enforced, right? And it states in part has nothing to do with the glory of adjustment that in any case any building or structure is erected, constructed,

681
03:41:11.359 --> 03:41:26.399
altered, repaired, converted or maintained or any building structure land or land land is used in violation of this act meaning the municipal land use law not just zoning but anything um or of any ordinance or any regulation

682
03:41:26.399 --> 03:41:42.800
made under the authority conferred thereby that I will say in my opinion goes goes beyond zoning ordinance. The proper local authorities of the municipality, that's like a mandamus action, or an interested party in in

683
03:41:42.800 --> 03:41:59.520
addition to other remedies may institute an appropriate action or proceedings to prevent such unlawful erection, construction, reconstruction, alteration, repair, conversion to prevent uh maintenance or use to restrain, correct, or abate such violation to prevent the occupancy of preventing illegal act. The point being,

684
03:41:59.520 --> 03:42:14.720
sorry I'm I'm paraphrasing, is that section 18 provides any interested party the right to go to superior court and and seek relief if he, she, or it believes that there is some form of

685
03:42:14.720 --> 03:42:31.040
unlawful act that's taking place in violation of an ordinance, including probably chapter 17, groundwater, storm water, etc. The miss the word of adjustment just addresses

686
03:42:31.040 --> 03:42:47.120
70A zoning ordinance challenges and zoning map interpretations. Again paraphrasing. So >> I respectively, you know, disagree with your interpretation. We would like to proceed with also presenting testimony

687
03:42:47.120 --> 03:43:03.279
on the drainage issues. Um I understand. >> I'll tell you right now, we want you to get it. >> Okay? >> So don't waste your time. >> Okay? >> Don't waste our board. We've been here a long time. So, if you want to carry on with what you want to discuss with municipal land use law, we're we'll do that. But I'll tell you right now, we will not adjudicate anything to do with

688
03:43:03.279 --> 03:45:02.080
this one. We're not qualified. We're strictly not qualified. And if that's the case, if you do want to assist on that, then we're rescheduled and get an engineer here. >> Okay. Can I have a moment to speak to my >> Sure. Thanks.

689
03:45:02.080 --> 03:45:16.399
>> Okay, thank you for that break. So, we'd like to continue with presenting the uh the zoning activities. >> Super. Okay. Um so I had um submitted a uh some

690
03:45:16.399 --> 03:45:32.720
documents to the board on um April 17th and got a letter from myself along with uh report and a copy of the application. So I had sent that in and I had also um sent a copy to um the owner of nine heart

691
03:45:32.720 --> 03:45:48.960
circle um so they'll also have a copy of that. Um, I'll be calling uh our witness for for cash strategy um to professional and planner um and to testify to this report, but I just wanted to let you know that we did submit that before. Um,

692
03:45:48.960 --> 03:46:04.080
and there was also some exhibits that we passed around. >> Okay. So, let's let's just kind of break it down for a little bit. So, um I know that uh Mr. Dary presented I just want to get it

693
03:46:04.080 --> 03:46:25.199
right. So under um cover letter from this story dated April 17, 2026, there was attached um a document entitled adjacent land draining analysis. Right. So that was submitted

694
03:46:25.199 --> 03:46:42.800
is that's not and then I think part of that is a zoning analysis. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, um you understand that what the board will consider is um any zoning

695
03:46:42.800 --> 03:46:59.040
analysis uh for a portion of this report that deals with the zoning analysis only for purposes of this. >> Yes, you understand. Okay. Um because it goes into other submission requirement and provides other stuff that we're not going to hear. Okay. So, as long as it's

696
03:46:59.040 --> 03:47:20.120
limited um to the zoning analysis, go right ahead. >> Okay. Um so, I I just >> raise your address. Do you swear testimony about being

697
03:47:20.640 --> 03:47:36.880
your name? Spell your name, please. >> Sir Rakkesh Dargy. R A K E S H D A R J I >> Thank you. >> Okay. And Mr. Dari, can you um give the board the benefit of your experience and

698
03:47:36.880 --> 03:47:52.960
education? >> Absolutely. Uh so I have a bachelor's degree in civil engineering from Ruckers University. I'm a licensed professional engineer and licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey. have uh over 30 years of experience in uh

699
03:47:52.960 --> 03:48:09.120
engineering, 25 years as a licensed engineer, uh 20 years as a licensed planner. I serve as the municipal engineer and land use board planner for numerous boards throughout New Jersey. I've also designed and overseen the

700
03:48:09.120 --> 03:48:24.960
design of uh numerous land development projects uh in the state of New Jersey. >> Your qualifications are accepted. Please proceed. >> Thank Actually, let me ask you one quick question before we get started. >> How did you get this information? Like what methodology did you use? >> The the information as far as to prepare the report. >> Yeah, certainly.

701
03:48:24.960 --> 03:48:42.000
>> So, there were uh over requests to the township uh for documents submitted for N Park Circle which uh my client procured from the township through open request. Uh obviously we we review the aerial photography and her and historic aerials uh for the area of the of the

702
03:48:42.000 --> 03:48:59.600
property and uh we also do the national land use ordinance which is obviously available on >> right your numbers how did you achieve these numbers >> which numbers you >> like like your minimum right side yard uh where you're saying there's a proposed is 15 feet 8 in the existing

703
03:48:59.600 --> 03:49:15.760
176 the required how did you figure that number out >> oh from the plans that were submitted uh and and your ordinance actually as far as minimum requirements go the the >> No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying the deviation, how did you determine that?

704
03:49:15.760 --> 03:49:32.960
What did you use? Because clearly didn't go on property, right? >> Yeah. This is it's based off the plans that were submitted. >> Okay, that's just I can I can certainly I can certainly provide that that thread. So the applicant >> Okay. So if you're referring to are you ready

705
03:49:32.960 --> 03:49:47.920
to refer to some plans? Are these plans that you submitted already to the board in support of your appeal? >> Yes. >> Yes. So uh I'll clarify the the aerial photograph was not submitted. Uh so that that should be marked.

706
03:49:47.920 --> 03:50:04.319
>> Okay. Sorry. Um so um as I mentioned we did submit a few things on April 17 that has copy of Mr. Gardner's report and my letter. Um, we brought with us tonight a set of exhibits which includes some of the documents that were already

707
03:50:04.319 --> 03:50:21.760
submitted to you on April 17th. Um, as well as um an aerial photograph and then I think the last page was also hadn't been submitted to the board because it's a markup of your zoning. >> Okay. So, so what do you want do you want to send provide those all at the

708
03:50:21.760 --> 03:50:38.000
same time? So what I'm just just proposing because um regard referring to these documents which are uh some of which are documents that were direct board and some of which are uh additional I would mark this as an exhibit um and maybe with each page being a letter of the same exhibit and

709
03:50:38.000 --> 03:51:01.439
then we can just refer to it that way if that's okay with you A1 ABC I'm sorry I apologize so Um what I would recommend given the nature of this matter and by the way um before

710
03:51:01.439 --> 03:51:18.640
we even go further uh Miss Gav zoning officer can raise your right hand tell me swear affirm the testimony you give tonight the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, um, why don't we, Nicole, mark these, uh, each sheet as a

711
03:51:18.640 --> 03:51:35.040
separate exhibit like A1 through A6. >> Okay. >> I think it'll at least be easier for the board and the public, >> right? So, A1 is the aerial. A2 is going to be the existing survey

712
03:51:35.040 --> 03:51:52.720
and proposed site plan. A3 is the front elevation, and I'm just referring to, you know, titans. A4 is the front and rear elevations

713
03:51:52.720 --> 03:52:11.600
with some zoning tables on them, including roof height calculations. A5 are left side elevation, right side elevation, and A6 he'll talk about appear to be um

714
03:52:11.600 --> 03:52:27.359
sections of the development regulations zoning. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. M the oversized copies of those exhibits according to them.

715
03:52:27.359 --> 03:52:45.199
>> Okay. and and also I think to uh the chair's comment when you're referring to a document A1 through A6 um and you have the Environmental Resolutions Inc. seal or insignia on the

716
03:52:45.199 --> 03:53:02.479
bottom left hand side that indic that implies potentially that Environmental Resolutions Inc. was the author or describe of these exhibits when in fact it probably was not the case. So I think it's important for the record that you clarify

717
03:53:02.479 --> 03:53:21.120
um what is this exhibit where you get the information from so >> okay thank you >> okay so we'll start with marking the exhibits and explaining what they are so u Mr. Can you explain to the board uh what is exhibit A1? Did you prepare any?

718
03:53:21.120 --> 03:53:38.160
>> So A1 is an exhibit prepared by by our office which is an aerial uh photograph. It's say the 2025 I believe uh Google Earth imagery uh of the general area of 7 and 9 let's say nine park circle and

719
03:53:38.160 --> 03:53:54.239
nine park circle is highlighted in yellow at the center of the page. >> And your client is which property? Uh my client is seven park circle. They joining propert uh 20 A2

720
03:53:54.239 --> 03:54:09.439
uh is you can disregard the ERI lo. I like to advertise whenever I can. Uh the >> but I didn't prepare this. >> ERI did not prepare this. This is simply just an exhibit that we we uh created using the submissions from the from the

721
03:54:09.439 --> 03:54:26.160
uh the applicant for nine park circle uh which is the survey of the of nine park circle to the left of the page and the composed uh site plan for nine park circle on the right of the page along with some uh

722
03:54:26.160 --> 03:54:43.279
notations and uh details of a drive which we're not going to talk about tonight. Right. Um, so the the so this is from all from the application materials that you got through the opra request.

723
03:54:43.279 --> 03:55:00.000
>> That's correct. >> And this the handwritten >> th those are notations from the township staff >> the township engineers office. >> Yes. And you're going to narrow your >> your discussion and analysis to the

724
03:55:00.000 --> 03:55:16.399
zoning sections of your report. Correct. >> That's correct. >> In particularly to grant system portion. >> That's correct. Okay. Thank you. >> Okay. So, can you just explain to the large A3? So A3 is simply just the and I probably won't be referring to A3 too

725
03:55:16.399 --> 03:55:33.600
much, but A3 is the uh the front elevation of of the uh the proposed dwelling at N Park Circle. A4 is the front and back elevations of the dwelling at the N Park Circle and A5

726
03:55:33.600 --> 03:55:50.160
is the side both the left and right side of the dwelling proposed dwelling at Nine Park Circle. A6 which I don't have blown up here but you have there at the last page is an excerpt from the uh from your zoning code uh specific regarding

727
03:55:50.160 --> 03:56:07.520
to the bulk requirements uh for the R3 R4 R5 and R six zones. >> Can we can we go back to A4 for a second? >> Sorry. I'm just trying to help with the record. Mhm. >> So

728
03:56:07.520 --> 03:56:23.920
you talked about on A2 that the notations were from the staff. >> That's correct. >> Staff. What about on A4? On A4, what you handed out under group height calculations, right?

729
03:56:23.920 --> 03:56:38.319
>> There appear to be some notations in red. So the notations in red are notations from from my office uh as uh to determine uh the the height calculations in so so those those

730
03:56:38.319 --> 03:56:56.239
crossouts those um slashes those numbers the block in there when calculating building height from the garage elevation all of that is your best that's correct.

731
03:56:56.239 --> 03:57:12.720
Thank you. >> The the handouts that I have from this um are not frontal is not the current.

732
03:57:12.720 --> 03:57:32.880
>> Wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. >> I got I got I got to back up. >> Okay. So, are you referring to A3 right now? Go ahead. >> And one one of the

733
03:57:32.880 --> 03:57:50.880
>> right before I'm going to let um Eileen continue. Um where Mr. Darie, I know you got this from an Oprah request and you superimposed it on your, you know, letterhead, so to speak.

734
03:57:50.880 --> 03:58:09.040
What is this plan? Who created the plan? Where is the title block of the plan? >> Scale date. >> Yeah, these for illustrative purposes obviously. And I I apologize that I should have put that on there. The uh

735
03:58:09.040 --> 03:58:26.239
>> So, let's start with A3. >> A3 or the architectural plan. >> No, A3 is front. >> The front elevation >> elevation. >> Yep. >> And that's not what you're showing, right? Can you go to A3? Certainly. A3 will be

736
03:58:37.439 --> 03:58:52.960
That's not correct. >> No, I don't know. >> See, I don't know where these were gone from because there's no documentation on it. There's no >> What are you looking at? >> I'm looking at what you submitted versus what I have >> of the most recent one. So

737
03:58:52.960 --> 03:59:11.520
these >> sorry I just to clarify what I submitted on uh April 17th attached copy of the site plans that we received from town. >> Okay. So, okay, wait. What? So, as you

738
03:59:11.520 --> 03:59:27.279
heard from the last application, when plans are submitted, the rule is that you have to have someone testify to the contents of them so that they can be, you know, subject to question from the board member. This

739
03:59:27.279 --> 03:59:40.560
is a little different because this is an appeal of a determination from a zoning officer. I understand that. So, but what I think would be helpful because I'm just looking at this myself. So,

740
03:59:40.560 --> 04:00:02.800
is the front elevation on A3 because it doesn't look like it is. >> So, so I'm just trying to be helpful here. Okay. I'm looking at your attachment to your April 17th savannah.

741
04:00:02.800 --> 04:00:21.560
>> Yeah. >> And one of the things that you attach is um architectural elevations for nine park system. So now we go to A1

742
04:00:22.720 --> 04:00:38.479
Associates PA Architects. see that? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, I immediately notice that where it shows front elevation on the Mazo Associates

743
04:00:38.479 --> 04:00:54.880
plan with I guess the last revision date of February 10th, 2026 do not look like what I'm seeing on A3. So, for example, I see some a metal

744
04:00:54.880 --> 04:01:11.760
roof. I see windows that don't exist here. So, there's definitely it appears and I'm going to let Miss Dappic go from here. Looks like there's some discrepancies just between A1 Mazo Associates PA

745
04:01:11.760 --> 04:01:30.319
architects with the last revision date of February 10 2026 proposed single family residence at nine park soral shore hills and what's in A3. So, Miss Davit, you see what I'm referring to here?

746
04:01:30.319 --> 04:02:09.600
>> When you say that's what I have, what do you have? So if I can clarify, so I believe the one that you have >> is what? A A4, which shows the front elevation. But

747
04:02:09.600 --> 04:02:27.760
before before we get to A4, you know what's what's A3 correspond to in terms of a Miso Associates architectural plan?

748
04:02:27.760 --> 04:02:42.720
>> Yeah. So A3, >> yes, >> is is an older rendition of of of that plan. So I again I apologize. We can we we don't even need to enter A3 since it's not the most current and this is the most current that we have in our files.

749
04:02:42.720 --> 04:03:09.760
>> Hold on. So A3 is no longer going to be part of the record. >> Correct. >> Dynamic application. the the zoning officer just handed me an elevation that stated 42326 which is >> a few days ago

750
04:03:09.760 --> 04:03:25.040
>> which we don't have >> but but in essence um again I apologize the the discussion with regard to setback is is not changed by the the the front

751
04:03:25.040 --> 04:03:44.560
elevation that that that's not the Okay. So, so far so so far A3 is not no longer part of the record, right? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> So, now let's go. Now, Greg, I'm sorry,

752
04:03:44.560 --> 04:04:06.880
but I just want No, you're okay. So, so now let's look at a >> Now, let's look at A4. Okay. Is is A4 does that correspond

753
04:04:06.880 --> 04:04:24.640
identically to the A1 Museo Associates PA architects plan sheet with the last revision date of February 10, 20.6? >> Yes.

754
04:04:25.199 --> 04:04:41.760
No, >> it's a different >> No, this is this is the the the April 23rd one is different, >> but the the February one, I believe, is >> this is

755
04:04:41.760 --> 04:04:57.800
>> I don't know when yours is dated. >> Yeah, when you got your >> I didn't get anything the I just got. When you say you just got the application, you just all you got was the appeal.

756
04:05:02.000 --> 04:05:17.279
>> So, so we do have the February 10th 1.6 after we plan and that's what this is. >> Here's here's the the concern is that protective of the record,

757
04:05:17.279 --> 04:05:34.960
right? that when you filed your appeal and interpretation, you didn't submit any doc any supporting documentation until literally 10 days before. And the question is u Miss David who that's what

758
04:05:34.960 --> 04:05:51.760
the decision is being who's being appealed from. Um Eileen have you had an opportunity a full and fair opportunity to review the contents of the April 17th submission. >> I've had an opportunity to read it but I

759
04:05:51.760 --> 04:06:07.680
I mean I I don't agree with it. >> Okay. But you're able you're able to articulate not the second but why you don't agree with it. >> Correct. >> Okay. All right. Just want to make sure that we have enough time and opportunity. That's fine. So you're

760
04:06:07.680 --> 04:06:32.880
getting my gist. Just make sure the record's clear as to when you're referring to an exhibit what architectural plan sheet it corresponds to in terms of revision date, whether there's any differences. So just to go back A4 based off of our

761
04:06:32.880 --> 04:06:49.040
plan that we have from the over request which says receive February 10th and it's revised to February 10th is is is what we have we need the architect elevation dated February 10th 2026

762
04:06:49.040 --> 04:07:20.560
>> with with the red markings in yours >> with the red markings in yours. Correct. actually and I I apolog Yes. Do we have Yeah, we do. >> And then eight, we're talking about then 85

763
04:07:20.560 --> 04:07:54.399
corresponds to what? It's different. You see, you see, so Mr. Dargy. >> Mhm. >> I'm looking at a A2 from the Miso architecture dated February 10th, 2026 as the last

764
04:07:54.399 --> 04:08:11.680
revision date and it does not correspond identically to your A5. >> It's different. I can just see in in one minute. >> Right. >> That that is correct. The A5 is different. So, so what what does your A5

765
04:08:11.680 --> 04:08:29.279
should we plus out A5 to or what does A5 corresponds to? >> So, I as far as our presentation goes, I don't think we need A5 either. To tell you the truth, we we really just need a the uh A4. We don't need >> All right, let's get to it. I mean, so

766
04:08:29.279 --> 04:08:46.000
far so far we're rather unimpressed with what I'm seeing. So, you know, let's go. >> Okay. A5 and A3 are deleted for the record. Go ahead. >> Um, we appreciate your patience. We're dealing with polls that we didn't receive.

767
04:08:46.000 --> 04:09:04.880
So, um, um, Mr. Dargy, um, you prepare the report that was submitted to the board that was dated April 17th that was referred to earlier. >> I did. >> Okay. your degree of are your report the

768
04:09:04.880 --> 04:09:21.920
original degree of planning and sharing can you give a brief overview of the existing condition >> certainly >> so >> and remember we're just talking zoning heard you mentioning >> well so we'll just u orient the board as

769
04:09:21.920 --> 04:09:37.600
far as where it is you know >> and you're referring to A1 >> we're referring to A1 uh nine parks circle is lot 2406 block 21 which is highlighted in the center in yellow. Uh seven park circle is just to

770
04:09:37.600 --> 04:09:52.880
the south of 9 park circle block 2406 lot 20. The existing uh dwelling on the on lot at 9 park circle is roughly a 1300 set square foot 1340t footprint uh home

771
04:09:52.880 --> 04:10:22.800
situated roughly situated uh roughly 30 I'll refer to a two which will give us an idea of the existing conditions is roughly uh

772
04:10:22.800 --> 04:10:43.600
situated 26 ft uh from the right of way of park circle. The proposed conditions are a substantially larger home around a 1900 and 40 ft footprint about 600 foot larger footprint um situated 44 ft from

773
04:10:43.600 --> 04:11:02.080
Park Circle. So another 16 or 18 ft further back from the roadway and it's also a deeper home. So all in all the back of the home is about 27 feet or so closer to the rear property line. Um, and did you evaluate the plans with

774
04:11:02.080 --> 04:11:17.439
proposed dwelling for compliance with section DRZ 606.2? >> I did. >> And what did what did you calculate for building coverage? >> So building coverage um, as I'm sure the board is aware is basically just the area the footprint of the buildings or

775
04:11:17.439 --> 04:11:31.920
building or buildings that are proposed on a lot divided by your lot area. uh what we found is that the uh footprint like I said is 1940 ft. We don't dispute that. That's what the option represented as the area of the building footprint.

776
04:11:31.920 --> 04:11:47.920
The however what we found is that the uh numerator when you divide by the area the there was an error in the the lot area that was used the area of the lot based off of the survey that's on A2 is 13,97 square.

777
04:11:47.920 --> 04:12:04.640
The calculations based off of 13,97 square ft. So when the applicant calculated lot of coverage or sorry building coverage they calculated to be 13.9% which is.1% less than what's allowable. The allowable is 14% in the zone. When you

778
04:12:04.640 --> 04:12:20.560
use the actual lot coverage of 13,97 ft the building coverage actually uh comes up to 14.8% which would require a G variance. >> Okay. No variance was applied for granted. >> That's correct. Okay. So, let's stop

779
04:12:20.560 --> 04:12:39.199
right there. So, um Miss David, you had an opportunity to uh listen to Mr. Georgie's testimony with regard to maximum bill. And on the sheet, um the

780
04:12:39.199 --> 04:13:04.199
present date, hold on a second. Um, April 23rd. Is that in the record yet? >> Um, that's like >> Okay, so is this Okay, hold on. So,

781
04:13:05.520 --> 04:13:23.920
I'm sorry, >> right? Okay. So, there's a further revision dated April 23rd, 2026 to the Miso Associates PA Architects Plans A1 and A2. So instead of a last

782
04:13:23.920 --> 04:13:40.640
revision date of February 10th, 2026, you're showing a last revision date of uh April 23rd, 2026. So, why don't we just take those two sheets and we're going to mark them

783
04:13:40.640 --> 04:13:56.159
as um let's mark them as Z1 and Z2 for zoning officer Z1 and Z2. >> Which which one are you marking Z1? We're going to go to Z2.

784
04:13:56.159 --> 04:14:14.399
>> We're going to mark A1 as Z1 with the last revision date of April 23rd, 2026. And we're going to mark as Z2 the A2 Miso Associates architect sheet with the last revision date of April 23rd, 2026.

785
04:14:14.399 --> 04:14:32.000
>> I apologize. Are you saying that A2 mean architectural sheet? >> Yes, architectural sheeting to the state also handed an SP1. >> Okay, before we get to that, hold on. So, um, the story, my I'm I'm guessing

786
04:14:32.000 --> 04:14:51.439
that you and your witness have not seen the April the last revision of April 23rd, 2026 until now. >> Z1 and Z2, correct? >> Correct. Okay. Um, do you want some time to to review that

787
04:14:51.439 --> 04:15:17.359
since it's just been provided to you? >> Yes. >> There was also a third page We're going to get to that. One second. Um there also is an SP1 from Miso Associates PA Architects

788
04:15:17.359 --> 04:15:33.279
um with the last revision date of April 23rd, 202.6 six. Uh that shows at least in part existing survey and proposed site. >> Right. >> Yes, I see that. >> Right. Um we're going to mark that as Z3.

789
04:15:33.279 --> 04:16:17.600
>> Okay. >> And I take it you've not had an opportunity to review that either if you're a witness. So would you would like an opportunity to review that with your witness as well? >> Yes. So realistically, how much time would

790
04:16:17.600 --> 04:16:49.520
you like? I mean, do you want to do this for five minutes or would you >> like to come back? I mean, I see your numbers. >> Uh, okay. Um the witness has had an opportunity to

791
04:16:49.520 --> 04:17:06.640
review Z1 through Z3 to testify. Um so Mr. um could you explain to the board now that you've reviewed uh the revised plans Z1 through D3 um can you explain to the board um how that's affected your

792
04:17:06.640 --> 04:17:21.600
conclusions regarding uh zoning non-compliance >> so with regard to building coverage >> yeah let's start let's start with building so we haven't spoken about the setback yet I'm guessing there'll be another >> let's just go building >> so building coverage uh it appears that

793
04:17:21.600 --> 04:17:38.239
the applicant is reduced or not optin the developer has reduced the uh the footprint of the building uh to to comply with with the building covers what l what it gives. So the plan dated four days ago, April 23rd, 2026,

794
04:17:38.239 --> 04:17:54.479
uh effectively reduce the building footprint, it appears to be to 1830 I love architectural text, 1831 ft. >> Uh whereas before it was 19540 ft. So

795
04:17:54.479 --> 04:18:10.319
they reduced the footprint by 100 ft. Uh it appears uh so they they they no longer require a building coverage variance based off of what's presented. Obviously I don't have floor plans because for security reasons floor plans aren't provided in request. So I can't

796
04:18:10.319 --> 04:18:26.560
verify the actual area of the building. We'll just have stipulated that's what the professional architect has put on the record. >> Okay. Um and what about the other zoning requirements for the property?

797
04:18:26.560 --> 04:18:44.479
>> So with regard to uh building setback um the >> and this is setback. >> The sideyard setback. Yes. Which is noted in our in our memo. >> This is the minimum right northwest

798
04:18:44.479 --> 04:19:00.640
sideyard. >> Correct. So you'll note that the uh building is set back 15t 8 in uh from the common property line that's at least it was on the other plan and it looks like it's actually a little less now 15' 4 in on

799
04:19:00.640 --> 04:19:17.359
on the Z3 which is the updated plan dated April April 23rd 26. So it's 15'4 in uh is what what the uh setback is in that area. So this is not noted obviously by the developer or

800
04:19:17.359 --> 04:19:34.880
zoning officer as a non-compliant condition. It's my opinion that that requirement would be 0.2 ft based off of the reading of your ordinance. The proposed bell is calculated to have a height of 34.83 ft uh based off which stipulates uh sorry section 606 2e12B

801
04:19:34.880 --> 04:19:51.120
stipulates that the required minimum setback in the R4 zone varies based off of the height of the proposed structure. Specifically, it states that uh in the R4 zone, uh single story structures up to 18 ft tall are permitted to be 15 ft from the setback and the minimum size

802
04:19:51.120 --> 04:20:06.159
setback for a second story or any building greater than 18 ft is 22 ft. >> Just a gradient, right? You're aware of that. >> Oh, that's that's I'm getting that chair. Uh so it appears the developer applied the setback to the building setback building segments. In other

803
04:20:06.159 --> 04:20:22.159
words, they applied the setback of 22 ft to just the portion of the building that exceeds 18 ft in height and 15 ft for the segment that's 18 ft in height. 15 ft for segments 18 ft or less in height. Uh so the zoning code that this application

804
04:20:22.159 --> 04:20:37.600
variation uh applies to is really the R5 and R six based off of the A6 which is in your in your packets. If A if A6 allows for for this this uh segmentation if you will where a portion of a

805
04:20:37.600 --> 04:20:55.479
building that's less than 18 ft is allowed to be 15 ft uh from a property line whereas any portion that's greater than 18 ft has to be 2 ft from a from a property line. The reading of R4 specifically said any building greater than 18 ft in height shall be 22 ft. So

806
04:21:00.080 --> 04:21:15.920
>> wait wait wait wait wait one one at a time. So your your position is that um because there is a portion of the building that is greater than 18 ft or constitutes a

807
04:21:15.920 --> 04:21:32.960
second story that the entirety of the structure shall have a sideyard setback requirement of 22 ft. That's what you're >> That's right. It's because the when you look at the the actual schedule,

808
04:21:32.960 --> 04:21:46.880
let's do this. Right. >> So now we're referring so the board can follow along. >> A6 and A6 um dealing with sideyard setback

809
04:21:46.880 --> 04:22:04.960
standards in R3 and R4 and R5 and R six. >> Correct. >> Okay. So, um, which one do you want the board to focus on? >> So, so we can focus on on, uh, we can talk about R5 and R six first if you like. So, what do you

810
04:22:04.960 --> 04:22:21.439
>> what what zone is the property? >> The zone the current zone is actually R4. The zone the current zone the zone subject property is R4. So, we can start there actually R4 sideyard step back in R3 and R4 district B which is highlighted applies to this this district. It specifically states that

811
04:22:21.439 --> 04:22:36.640
the in the offer district the minimum sideard setback shall be 15 feet for one-story buildings up to 18 feet in height. The minimum side setback for a second story or any or or any building greater than 18 ft in height shall be 22 ft. The applicant calculates the

812
04:22:36.640 --> 04:22:53.199
building height on the plans be 34t and change currently greater than 18 ft. So that's why we're saying that the step should be 22 ft. What the applicant appears to have applied to this to the R4 zone is the R5 and R six standard

813
04:22:53.199 --> 04:23:10.000
which is above and it's actually C where it says minimum setback for building segments 32 ft in height in the R5 district is 16 ft R six district is 12 ft A says it's up to 18 ft is 12 and 8 and the gradient

814
04:23:10.000 --> 04:23:26.080
which is B applies for R5 and R six based off of the variation in height There is no gradient and there's no allowance of that type in the R4 or R3 zone. >> That's based on your plain reading of the R4 zoning ordinance. >> Correct.

815
04:23:26.080 --> 04:23:47.439
So based on your professional opinion when a variance is required >> based off the reading of the zone zoning requirement my professional opinion that the varian required miss would you like to respond to testimony with regard to the sidey guard

816
04:23:47.439 --> 04:24:15.680
setback standard for the arc war zone you take the >> architectural Um I mean typically we yeah the R5 has the.3 and R4 was typically 15 ft on the first

817
04:24:15.680 --> 04:24:32.560
floor 22 ft and 25 ft on the second floor or any portion of the structure once it hit 18 ft had to meet at 22 ft for the 25 ft just the way it is. >> It's teared

818
04:24:32.560 --> 04:24:48.720
first floor. >> Well, the first that's got to be set back. >> So, so the >> the setback corresponds to the height of the building at that

819
04:24:48.720 --> 04:25:07.520
setback segment. That's typically how I would >> and that's how you've been interpreting it in reviewing development applications >> which is exactly the way you refer to the R5 and R six district. Wait, >> I'm trying to differentiate because

820
04:25:07.520 --> 04:25:37.680
there's a on the SP1 it has a one story one story area delineated again when I review this I I probably go over this three four or five time to double check everything. I was very confident in like I there was nothing

821
04:25:37.680 --> 04:25:56.439
really that I could go back on. I double check he pipes. I double check everything setbacks. >> So So the way you're interpreting um section DRZ 606.281E to E1B. Um

822
04:25:57.199 --> 04:26:13.680
that for the R4 district, the way that you interpret the sideyard setback is the way you've been interpreting calculation of sidebar sideyard setback for other development applications in the township of Milbour in the R4 district. Correct.

823
04:26:13.680 --> 04:26:34.159
>> Right. >> And for how long have you been the zoning officer, Miss Dav? years. 20 years. >> 20 years. >> So you're you're the Helen's opinion is that if there's any

824
04:26:34.159 --> 04:26:50.319
portion of the building that has a second story or greater than 18 ft, then the 22 foot sideyard setback applies to the entirety of the building. Is that accurate? That's my reading of the ordinance. >> Right. And and and you you were present

825
04:26:50.319 --> 04:27:17.680
when Miss Datus testified that she has a different interpretation. >> I I did just hear that. Yes. >> No. >> Yes. >> Okay. Any further testimony? That's the as far as the the vault setbacks go.

826
04:27:17.680 --> 04:27:35.920
That's that's the uh testimony for for the two variants. >> So the one the one variance essentially went the alleged variant went away and we're now just about side. >> Any questions from the board?

827
04:27:35.920 --> 04:27:51.760
>> Is there a height variance as well or has that gone away now? >> There there is no based off of our review there there is not a height bearing right now. >> Okay. Thank you. So what's the determination of if we consider height of the building

828
04:27:51.760 --> 04:28:12.560
the sliding one which they R5 and R six are treated versus just any part of the height of the building is over 18 you're saying you interpret it as >> yeah and just the director height issue

829
04:28:12.560 --> 04:28:28.560
uh it is in our memo I'm sorry in our regarding the stories and everything. There's not enough information for us to determine whether variance again we're not into the floor plans for security reason. We can't determine that. But again, it's it the home it just sort of walks like a

830
04:28:28.560 --> 04:28:49.040
duck and talks like a duck. So we're not challenged, it says 34 and 34, which is >> which you're permitted to have if you have at least an 8 to 8 according to your ordinance any slope. >> Any other questions?

831
04:28:49.040 --> 04:29:07.399
Any questions from the audience regarding this testimony? >> No. >> Any comments in the audience regarding this case application?

832
04:29:08.159 --> 04:29:24.920
>> I'll close the public portion. Well, we're basically separate the um if we agree with the with the applicants and the telling and basically telling our phone that we've been doing it wrong.

833
04:29:25.520 --> 04:29:44.159
>> So, I'll go first here. Um I I found testimony to be less than you can help. And that maybe speaks to paragraph. Um, I have no reason to believe that our zoning officer is doing it incorrectly.

834
04:29:44.159 --> 04:30:03.600
Um, so, uh, I would not support this appeal. >> Anyone else's thoughts? This is sort of a global comment that I think the houses in in in town are getting really big and we comment on that when we walk the dog now that they're getting taller and bigger and

835
04:30:03.600 --> 04:30:19.760
side parks and heights and and I think we are reviewing these things and one of our committees um in town and reviewing ordinances. So my only suggestion would be I support Eileen in this. I think 20 years is is and no one has questioned it before. I hear your your concerns with

836
04:30:19.760 --> 04:30:35.199
this and perhaps this is something that can be reviewed in the future which will not help your case but be something we might consider just to get a consensus. And I guess my question for Eileen, do you have a professional organization that you if you have a question that this comes up that you can

837
04:30:35.199 --> 04:30:50.319
>> the problem is that the ordinance is specific to so >> you know you can't really ask other >> it wouldn't you know >> it wouldn't be relevant. Okay. >> Yeah. Only thing I can do is separate the wording in the definitions and try

838
04:30:50.319 --> 04:31:05.439
and firm everything up so that it's more >> less up the interpretation. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. I don't I don't think the wording is tight enough for us to say. >> Yeah.

839
04:31:05.439 --> 04:31:23.040
>> Yeah. Right. I support Elen because um the common sense only the higher part cannot be too close because it's too high make people feel so close. If the higher part we can give a little uh more

840
04:31:23.040 --> 04:31:41.199
set not not the whole building but that's just from my common sense to to integrate this audience. >> I actually I might just be the only of opposition voice. I I absolutely value you and know you do a

841
04:31:41.199 --> 04:31:57.040
great job. But the way I'm reading this, the minimum side setback for a second story, any building greater than 18 ft in height shall be 22 feet. And then you look on their latest table and it says height.

842
04:31:57.040 --> 04:32:13.760
It says says 3410. So that's what they're listing as their height of the building, which is not which is compliance, but I'm just saying if it's greater than 18 ft in height, it should be 22. Well, >> no. 3410 is the height to feet.

843
04:32:13.760 --> 04:32:33.840
>> Yeah. Right. >> Right. But it's but it's referencing the height of the building. >> But then why would it say set back for a second story? >> They don't seem to work together. >> That's it. Is it's Yeah, it's it feels

844
04:32:33.840 --> 04:32:51.439
inconclusive. You're right, Regina, to your comment. It's just unfortunately it's a little bit of a gray area, but if you know, I think deferring based on your sworn testimony, maybe that just is how you have applied that. I think that makes it okay.

845
04:32:51.439 --> 04:33:06.879
>> Now, furthermore, if this did come in front of us as a as a request for varian, you know, I I don't I don't see where this is. you know, you have major hardship here on this case, on this lot. Your own client had the same thing. I

846
04:33:06.879 --> 04:33:23.439
think it's six variances on the house, five that I set on. I mean, so at the end of the day, you know, like I said, I just don't I support our our evaluation 100%, but I'm not really sure where there's a

847
04:33:23.439 --> 04:33:39.439
point of protection rate. So, any other thoughts? Let me um let me just state uh in the board's consideration um you know there's case law on this that zoning office ordinances excuse me

848
04:33:39.439 --> 04:33:54.959
are to receive a reasonable and I'm reading um reasonable construction and are to be liberally construed in favor of municipality and that's township of Ben Senad which is this New Jersey Supreme Court case

849
04:33:54.959 --> 04:34:13.119
160 New Jersey 56 1999 and there's some other health division decisions that also lend support for that proposition. Um, that being said, the goal is to uh effectuate and discover the local

850
04:34:13.119 --> 04:34:30.160
legislative defense and that defense should be found in the language that's used um in the ordinance and that ordinances are to receive a reasonable construction uh and application again to serve the apparent legislative purpose.

851
04:34:30.160 --> 04:34:47.039
Um there is some case law that also says that where the board of adjustment or the administrative officer in this case the zoning officer has construed a particular provision in a certain way over a long period of time. the cord the

852
04:34:47.039 --> 04:35:04.561
courts poured the weight great weight to such interpretations and that's the uh the trust company versus planning board um case um that's um health

853
04:35:04.561 --> 04:35:22.639
decision um and there's also the pro case of legislative attempt etc So, you know, that's something for you to consider when deciding this particular appeal and

854
04:35:22.639 --> 04:35:38.561
interpretation regarding this side. >> It's pretty compelling given the long history uh the way that this provision has been interpreted not only by Eileen but this board because we have um uh

855
04:35:38.561 --> 04:35:56.080
follow the same process. So, uh I think given uh that that legal guidance, I I I don't see how this um appeal succeeds. >> Do I have a motion? >> Well, before I have your motion, I do have the appellent hearing. Would we

856
04:35:56.080 --> 04:36:17.080
like to say a few comments to the board? >> Yeah, we delivered it already. That's that we've delivered it already. I mean that's you know had your shot there. I'm going to ask you any further from you and you said no.

857
04:36:17.119 --> 04:36:34.879
>> Well I the apologist would like to speak uh has uh >> a motion to open up the public portion again. >> Motion to open a >> second. All those in favor. >> Go ahead. >> Thank you introduce myself.

858
04:36:34.879 --> 04:36:53.680
>> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Where's your hand? >> Raise your right hand. Do you swear affirmations proceeding through the truth? >> Yes. >> Name and address for the >> Ryan Money Lu Ny 7 circle. >> So I recognize very

859
04:36:53.680 --> 04:37:10.561
appeal at this board. Um, but I also want to recognize this was the only public body I could appeal to and um, it's been difficult to track this project because some of the material presented tonight were, you know, finalized April 23rd. So, one of my

860
04:37:10.561 --> 04:37:27.680
questions is the site plans. There was engineer to agree with site plans and she recommended a drywall be placed in the front yard. That was like a red writing. >> Once again, that's not something we're going to touch tonight. So, so my question is at what point are the

861
04:37:27.680 --> 04:37:44.000
plans finalized where the neighbors would be aware of where the drywall is going to be located? >> The drywall will not be in anything that I have that would only be the engineer would have the grading permit which would have where the dry well is being

862
04:37:44.000 --> 04:37:59.520
located and any of the drainage calculations always. So my question is there was a recommendation by Christine Bugle to move the drywalls to the front. How do I know when when that's been finalized? >> Just let me just stop this right here.

863
04:37:59.520 --> 04:38:15.840
Questions about when the zone the the engineering department is going to finalize the location of the drywall. It's all due respect it's outside the purview of this board of adjustment in part for the reasons that we stated at the very beginning of this hearing.

864
04:38:15.840 --> 04:38:33.520
Certainly um if you would want to call the the uh engineering department and ask those questions, you're you're certainly free to, but it's not for this board of adjust. >> So your advice to me is to >> I'm not giving advice to you because I'm just I'm just trying to help move the

865
04:38:33.520 --> 04:38:50.240
proceeding along based on what this board has the power to do and what they don't have the power to do. >> That's right. >> So So then they can't It's a fair question. This board isn't here to give advice to to you, to any applicant, any

866
04:38:50.240 --> 04:39:08.279
interested party. They just make determinations based on municipal language law. That's what that's what they are charged to do and that's the only thing they're empowered to do. >> Anything further? >> Do you want to give any other comments?

867
04:39:16.719 --> 04:39:32.080
Um, I just wanted to make some concluding remarks before >> I thought we went through this. I mean, I don't understand how we're so backed up here. I mean, I I asked further. You said no and now we're opening the case back up. And so, you know, go ahead. Let's do this. >> I appreciate the board's time. Thank you

868
04:39:32.080 --> 04:39:47.600
for hearing the appeal. Um, you know, we did identify a variance to understand the zoning officer's position. We believe that that's a variance under the plain reading of the township ordinance. Um we also uh addressed some

869
04:39:47.600 --> 04:40:02.958
nonconformities with other areas of township ordinance that I understand the board is not considering outside of the court jurisdiction. Um those are still issues that we believe that the board should consider their non-compliance with the town or board is charged to uh

870
04:40:02.958 --> 04:40:18.480
determine compliance with. So thank you for hearing me appeal this evening. Um, we ask that permits be uh uh reversed or that a redesign be required. Thank you. >> Thank you, counselor. I'll close the public portion.

871
04:40:18.480 --> 04:40:34.000
>> Thank you. Very deliberated. So there you might want to before you ask for a motion based on the stories additional comments and additional comments from the appellent whether there's any more

872
04:40:34.000 --> 04:40:51.280
deliberation regarding what you >> No, I'm just going to sum up that I I understand your point of view and thank you for taking the time to present these things to the learning board to the zoning board. learned from this. But what your testimony with the legal guidance, I feel comfortable saying that this I I really support on this and I

873
04:40:51.280 --> 04:41:08.480
might have zoning officers vast experience. >> So you mean motion technique >> or or or not? I mean is it's up to anyone. You can make a motion to accept and it could fail for a second or you can

874
04:41:08.480 --> 04:41:25.840
wait motion to reject the application. >> Yeah. So, so motion to um reject the appeal that was filed by the applicant and to um determine on the interpretation that the zoning officer's

875
04:41:25.840 --> 04:41:43.360
interpretation of the ordinance was correct. >> So moved. >> Can we what you said or should I do repeat? You could say I make a motion in in accordance with our counselor.

876
04:41:43.360 --> 04:42:01.200
>> I make a motion in accordance with our counselor district. >> I have a second. >> David Bradford. >> Yes. >> Regina Truit. >> Yes. >> Roy, >> yes. >> Beth, >> yes. >> Gary Rosen, >> yes.

877
04:42:01.200 --> 04:43:46.400
>> Yes. Yeah. Do one more thing. Thank you. >> Oh, that's Where's Where's that? All right. Um,

878
04:43:46.400 --> 04:44:02.320
real real quick. So, so this is a um resolution even though we're in practice we've been doing this since the beginning of the year. It's a resolution to implement notice requirements pursuant to New Jersey advice on website and

879
04:44:02.320 --> 04:44:16.638
protocol preparation and establish an ongoing monitoring advisory protocol for applicants. Um, this resolution that I drafted was was taken significantly from the new law that went into effect for

880
04:44:16.638 --> 04:44:34.160
noticing as of March 1st of 2026. um and it has certain requirements that we don't need to go into right now. But one of the things that I I try to take the time to do um is to include in there

881
04:44:34.160 --> 04:44:51.520
a non-binding protocol where um the board of adjustment can provide advice and recommendations non-binding to applicants when they're preparing development applications and need to provide notice, right? because we're not

882
04:44:51.520 --> 04:45:06.878
all land use lawyers that you know live in the towns of Milbour and so um there is some recommendations in here as to essentially how to effectuate proper legal notice as of

883
04:45:06.878 --> 04:45:24.480
March 1st in terms of identifying um you know the the right u online publication service etc. So um Mr. Rosen had some um a recommendation with regard to specifically paragraph three about the

884
04:45:24.480 --> 04:45:38.958
monitoring. Gary, do you want to comment on that? >> Yeah, I just um I just wanted to make sure that we were clarifying um kind of when the monitoring would occur and how um uh when the reporting

885
04:45:38.958 --> 04:45:55.520
would be done uh to the pool. So um can't remember exactly what language we came up with earlier but >> I think I think >> effectively I just wanted to make sure that that um uh it was it was clear when

886
04:45:55.520 --> 04:46:11.680
the uh the monitoring >> so that so that the I think >> there has to be quarterly reporting >> right well so that um Eileen is the board of adjustment secretary

887
04:46:11.680 --> 04:46:29.280
would provide orderly reporting to the board as to essentially any issues she's seeing with regard to noticing >> so that we can amend as we need to. But if there's no issues, obviously she can just say there's no issues. It doesn't

888
04:46:29.280 --> 04:46:47.360
have to be any type of formal report. Um and every year the the board based on those quarterly reports um can annually review no our compliance with the um provisions

889
04:46:47.360 --> 04:47:02.718
dealing with dealing with those. >> If it's not formal then is there a compliance performance? There's no the way the the law there's a in my personal opinion there's a couple of holes in terms of you know how to notify the

890
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public as to how to properly notice and what this is doing is trying to give direction to the public how to properly without >> I'm all for that if that if that's okay with you is that add undue burden to your day >> it's supposed to make it easier

891
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>> I I just post everything on the website I don't which is awesome. >> I mean, see the problem is what? So, people who have to put a notice in the newspaper, so is it up to them to find out does this newspaper meet all the

892
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requirements? >> Technically, the answer is yes. But what we're doing is we're suggesting here that the star ledger should meet the requirements for your notice. But we don't want to bind ourselves. So, you

893
04:47:52.240 --> 04:48:07.680
know, you applicant need to do an independent evaluation, >> you know, and contact the Star Ledger. But >> the reality is that they're not going into >> Okay. Are we liable for the Star Ledger's failure to publish? >> No. Okay.

894
04:48:07.680 --> 04:48:23.440
>> It still becomes the applicants ultimately if they don't help. >> What's that? >> How do I find out >> if they're like the item? >> Well, what you we can talk about it offline, but basically um what you

895
04:48:23.440 --> 04:48:39.360
should do is contact the item and ask them the burden's on them, >> okay? >> To demonstrate compliance with these requirements, >> okay? And if they and and sometimes some of these online publications are saying, "Hey, you know, we're not guaranteeing

896
04:48:39.360 --> 04:48:54.958
anything." >> And then there's a big risk, >> right? Um, and I think I think maybe it's tapped into I can't remember which which publication that's online has affirmatively taken a position of saying

897
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we're going to do all the research for you and we're going to verify that we meet the requirements whether it's Milbour or some other town or not, right? Because they're saying, "Hey, look, we have whether it's insurance or otherwise, they want the business. >> You know, it's it's a you know, they can

898
04:49:10.160 --> 04:49:26.878
make significant amount of money." Um so >> so like is that in a checklist I mean or so if we give a check you know could we say in there that like you know if you got publish or you got >> well they do I mean they do have the legal notice which says they're required

899
04:49:26.878 --> 04:49:42.240
to publish it >> right they need to provide proof to eene that they've published in an online official online you know publication >> how do they know >> so it has to be online now >> online >> so okay so they pretty much have to do

900
04:49:42.240 --> 04:49:58.958
to start it because the item is not >> right. But like I said though, you can contact the item and say if you can demonstrate that you meet these requirements, we'll include the item as an option. >> Okay. >> They give you a link. >> I mean that can be in their first

901
04:49:58.958 --> 04:50:14.400
report. >> What is that? >> That can be in their first report. >> I know, right? They have to demonstrate it with a link. Here's a link to my notice, >> right? >> But then I have to subscribe to the paper. But remember, all an applicant needs to do is comply with the law whether

902
04:50:14.400 --> 04:50:31.200
somebody gets the notice or not. >> I What's their burden of proof to leave? >> They give me the certified receipts. Yeah. >> I just they sent >> the certified receipts. >> And I have had from numerous people who've gone to Shore Hills Union

903
04:50:31.200 --> 04:50:46.798
post office. You can take their certified. They do it. >> They don't want to deal with it. >> They want to do it. They literally would not take it. You went to four post office. Nobody would take it to the point where he actually went door to door and I think he sent certified

904
04:50:46.798 --> 04:51:03.600
especially when they see like and there was nobody in the post. I said maybe they want you. He says there was nobody there. >> Yeah. They won't do it. >> They wouldn't take off and it's not >> that's why don't waste your money on every return receipt requested because they you'll never get the card back. >> So it's unfortunate because I mean you

905
04:51:03.600 --> 04:51:22.560
know I've heard it from a few people. So, is this a realistic? So, so back to my original question. Is it undue burden on and is it realistic? >> I don't think it's I mean, honestly, >> so you said it's fine. >> No, >> but it's the type of thing where we if we start having to kick

906
04:51:22.560 --> 04:51:37.440
applications because they're screwing up with the notice, we have to revisit that. You know, we're trying to be >> Yeah. >> You know, >> quality assurance, >> right? You know, >> citizen friendly. I mean, I think the clerk has our township clerk has pretty

907
04:51:37.440 --> 04:51:53.280
much just, you know, taken on a few items. Star ledgers have they I don't know what research has been done as far as do you meet these requirements. >> I'll have to find out. >> Find out. >> Yeah.

908
04:51:53.280 --> 04:52:10.440
>> Okay. So should we go on this? >> Uh do I have a motion to adopt the resolution of the board of just township of Milurn new resolution regarding notice? >> A second.

909
04:52:10.480 --> 04:52:26.958
>> All those in favor? >> I. Anyone opposed? >> So do I have to publish this on our public notice website >> after you send it to me for final? Have you have you seen it and read it? >> Uh yeah, a few times.

910
04:52:26.958 --> 04:52:44.000
>> Okay. >> Oh. Uh do you have a motion to return? >> All in favor? >> Thanks for coming. >> This is the past. This was like a normal >> back

911
04:52:44.000 --> 04:52:54.878
just spoke very slowly. We all this kind of time regular midnight >> board to bed goes late. And he, by the way, he wouldn't let you ever taste a