Good evening and welcome to the 51st meeting of fiscal year 2025 for the Milton Planning Board. At this time, I'd like to now call the meeting to order and begin with our administrative items. Um first um we have um approval of
minutes. Did you want to do the introductions? We should do introductions first. Yes. Um yes. If Cheryl, if you'd like to introduce yourself. Sure. Cheryl Tagaya, secretary. Sean Fagy, member. Magfield, member. Jim Davis, member, and Meredith Hall serving as chair. And
tonight, uh with us, we have on Zoom um Cheyenne, our staff. Hi free sh. You're on mute. Yeah. Um there now we can hear you.
Now we can hear you. Um they are from the dates of May 8th, May 13th, May 21st, May 22nd, and June 12th. Has everyone had a chance to review those?
Okay. Um I did have just um two small things that I noticed on just the June 12th. Okay. Um under um MBTA community zoning um under Tom Dhy of 247 Adam Street uh the
third row third line down right to choose there's an extra letter there are adjacent. What page was that Meredith? The first page. First page. Okay. Yeah. It's the second paragraph, the third line.
Choose. And there's just a letter R that we can tell Julia. Okay. Do you see that? No. So, right to choose probably after choose. Yeah. I downloaded what Cheryl sent
today. There's no R. Okay. You don't have it in yours. Okay. So maybe that was corrected. Oh, I see. Yeah, I see where it is. Um, okay. And then on page two, requirement is T. There's a letter T set by the law. Do you not see that? Okay. I'm sorry. Can you do that one
again? Sorry. On the on page two of June 12th. Yes. The first line, density requirement is I show a letter T set by the law. Yeah. Oh, I see it. Yeah. Okay.
Here. I'm correcting it in the online version, too. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's just an extra letter. And then just a few lines down, the fourth sentence. Process all zoning is amended. Mhm. And there's just two periods.
Mhm. Good eyes. Very good. Impressive. And the Yeah. But everything else I thought looked great. After amended, you said. After amended. Yeah, just an extra period before Mr. Fehee.
Oh, I see. Yeah. Okay. When you do these track changes, you lose some of those things. Right. Right. And those are just tiny little things, but um Okay. So, with that, and I'll give those to um I already corrected them in the
file that's in the folder. So, she should have she accesses those, she'll have the correct. Perfect. um when she had them printed out, but that's it's just the 12th, right? And it's just the 12th that okay, it was amended. Everything else is
perfect. So, I would entertain a motion to approve the minutes and with the two two small amendments to June 12th. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes from May 8th, May 13th, May
21st, May 22nd, June 12th with the two small changes made to the June 12th minutes. Second. All in favor? I I Thank you all and thank you Cheryl again for getting those pulled together. Um so
now we are moving to um the next meeting dates. We have our next schedule uh regularly scheduled meeting will be on the 24th of July. Hard to believe that's going so quickly. Um, and then we have August 14th.
So, the warrant articles are due before the 14th, right? Yeah. A draft of the warrant articles. Yeah. So, you know, depending on how much we could get done, we could look at adding moving our meeting that would
have been on the 14th to the first week on the 7th in August. I don't know if that's possible. I think that's out of the way. Would that make sense? If we need to do any cleanup again, we'll um I'm good.
And again, we'll do what we can, you know, in this this is such a short window of time before the fall town meeting. So, and we'll I'll talk to the board committee. Um I just think we want to be mindful not to send anything over too late to them. I think um the select
board is going to be um less forgiving if you will and they want to hold to the time frames a bit more so to not back up the warrant committee. So since they have to go to the select
board and I think the select board meets on they'll meet the they'll meet on the 5th or the No, they'll meet on the 12th and the 12th typically. Yeah. But when was it that we got an email from Cheyenne, right? With the date that the warrant was going to close. Let me see. Cheyenne, could you
I read that one. Maybe just review those dates again when the warrant closes. Thank you. July 1st. That's when she sent the email. July 1st. Yes. July 1st email. STM timeline. Of
course, it's not opening. Why is it not opening? Oh, I'm not online. Yeah. So, right close 8 um reported approval articles August 12 and then they need to approve the warrant by
the 7th of October. Okay. So then is that okay if we then we would have a a little break in between if we move our meeting to the 7th? No. Rather than the 14th. Okay. I'm done.
All right. So our next meeting um is that good for Cheyenne? Is that good for you? Okay. Nope. She won't be Oh, I'm sorry Cheyenne. I know we're going to be celebrating you on the 24th. Um, so it will be the 24th and um and
the 7th will be the next meeting dates. All right, great. And um so uh Cheyenne, do you have u any um tell um updates for us
from planning staff? Um the only update I have is since our last meeting, we did receive the application and narrative from the fire station building committee. Um they will be coming on the 24th as it's a public hearing, a joint meeting with the tree warden as well as
a resident um over at 179 Highland. So both applications have been sent out for review for the next meeting. Okay, great. And then Cheyenne, the only other thing to um that you might want to mention is the email that Nick sent out
today regarding um wanting the planning board's thoughts on the mapping for the liquor license. It's not on our agenda, but I think people can give feedback to you directly
um if they want to take a look at that. Yeah. Do you want to pull the map up? Feedback. Yeah. Yeah. Now, just uh quickly while she does that, back to the fire station. That's a public hearing. So, have has that
neighborhood been made aware, have are they in talks with the neighbors? I wonder. There is a legal ad sent out to the neighbors. Like in a butter's notice. Oh, okay. Yeah. This is about moving the island.
Yeah. Yeah. Taking that down for the And I know Yeah. both are going to the historic commission um that Tuesday before. So they'll um have their comments prepared to give to us as well. Isn't moving the Allen kind of a mustave
because of safety? It Yeah, it's it's a fire act. Yeah, it's going to be fine, but it's just sort of a procedure that even the town goes through if they're removing a a tree in a Okay. on a scenic roadway. So,
all right. So, that's the map that was sent out. Did everybody get that? Mhm. Yeah. Um, and Cheyenne, do you want to just explain that real quickly for the public who are may want to weigh in as well? So, all right. So, at our last town
meeting, um, there was an article for adding motor licenses. And at the time it was so it could be expansive of the entire town instead of zone specific, but now we kind of have to make it a little more zone specific. So, our town administrator, Nick Milano, went through
our map and kind of identified zones that he thinks would benefit from these liquor licenses. Um, so that's kind of where we're at in the process. We just got that email today of his proposition of zones. So, okay, great. Thank you.
So, we're not um you don't want our comments right now? Well, we can just if it's part of her update, we could if you want to. Um so my concern um
is adding um two um two locations on Route 28 in light of um the horrible accident that happened uh last week with three
fatalities. Um, you know, I've been, uh, you know, sounding the alarm about how dangerous Route 28 is and adding more density to Route 28.
And, um, it's only going to get worse um, in the future. And it's not just this section of Route 28, which is it's bad. I mean, I hear sirens every day. Um, but it's also, you have to remember
Route 28 goes all the way around to the other side of the town, which I think on Nick's map also has um um, you know, another potential site. So, I'm just cautious and raising
concern about adding more um, traffic at this point in time on Route 28. until a complete um study has been done um on on this section
on the whole section of Route 28. In fact, I don't recall that you know the fact that this would be liquor licenses for anywhere in town uh because it seems to me that they normally would want to be
associated with business uses. Um, so that's just my overall general comment. And then my second comment would be um Curry College. I I don't know what the the thought is
there, but um there are underage students I imagine. And so um historically I think generally I'm not saying Curry College in particular but alcohol in colleges and college students
you know can be a safety um concern too to to um to your point. So I guess I I would like to understand why Curry College was selected. Um,
and it seems to me the places that we said that that are in the MBTA community zoning that allow business, which may not have it now, those would be good places because there could be businesses coming in there. Um,
so that's my general thought about Yeah. And the other um thought I had was why are we looking at um actual districts in town? Should we or could we
be looking at indust industries and commercial uses um to be able to expand um you know offering um I don't know if it's just a bar a liquor license isn't just a bar. It also
could be a package store, um, a liquor store. So, would we be able would current businesses be able to apply for a liquor license? And, um, and then that way you're are you're allowing an
existing pre-existing non-conforming sometimes to be able to expand their offerings. Well, there are businesses on Randolph A, right? And that's probably why it was selected. Um, and Wallist Golf Course has a liquor
license or Wallson Golf Club. Um, and you know, whether it's something like a Newm Farms would benefit from being able like the plate used to have a brunch and serve
mimosas or whatever, right? Um, so I guess that's another factor in terms of Rand Fav Maggie. But I I uh I do take your point. This I think the um I might have a little different idea about like the speed being really the a
safety issue and usually when you have more people you're going to have it's going to cut down the speed because you're going to have more comingings and goings, but I I get the the overall point about safety. Well, I mean there's a a high traffic count on Route 28 now. I went online to
look at their um their report and I I don't know the exact number. I've forgotten, but it's like 300,000 cars a day or something on Route 28. It's an incredible amount. So, to your point, the more traffic, the slower the speed. That doesn't seem to
be um a correlation currently on Route 28. then they then maybe it can take the lane diet that mass DOT had proposed and get bike lanes and sidewalks which would improve it vastly you know so that's where I would support um if if
there's an actual change in the design of um Route 28 um putting in turning lanes fixing the lights uh the lights don't always trigger even when I'm coming out of Hillside Street it it sometimes it wasn't reading my car so
then I would have to go through the red light at Hillside to go on to Route 28 cuz it was never turning green for me. Um, so I would think that some things would have to happen. Um, seems to me that if if they took away their
prioritization of getting cars through Milton, then you would have more places to cross. Like there's if you think about like the neighborhood that's where Sasserman, etc. as they're isolated if unless they're in the car and they're still kind of dicey coming out of there in the car, right? But you can't really
do a bicycle or pedestrian orient to kind of um access there even if it's nearby because of the challenges crossing. I mean I think Reed still has the same kinds of issues in terms of being able to cross. So, one of the things I think that was identified u in
that bike pedestrian master plan um is just and the kicker is at the top of Sassimon trail heads that you could actually go and hike or bike and it just you can't get to them. Yeah. I mean it was dangerous as hell 20 years ago when I lived on Sasimon trying to turn out and now it's just got to be worse.
Yeah. So I I mean I would love for us this not on our agenda but to send a you know a support to the select board in terms of advocating for th those kinds of changes and on uh rand fav.
Mhm. We should put that on the agenda. Um but I would like to see this somehow opened up to the non-conforming uses in town. I don't know how we would do that cuz there's so many little pockets, but I mean, and not to signal you out, but if you wanted to sell gift baskets with
a bottle of wine, you can't do it and you're missing an opportunity. So, like, how would we absorb those? I think that's Maggie's point about the use versus the geography. But I think they have to tie they've been told they have to tie it to the geography. And I think I'm getting a sense that what he
selected was trying to give that opportunity. So maybe that question could go back is can it can it get tied to uses as well as maps which I think is at what you're both saying. No, good call. I missed it. Yeah.
So Cheyenne, if you could convey th that information um or thoughts to Nick. I know the select board is going to be meeting on this on the 22nd before we meet. So that would be great. And anyone else who
has any comments, please feel free to send it to Cheyenne and she can send it over. Sean, did you have anything you wanted to add? No, not really. I I um I was, you know, I was hopeful to have more of an explanation from Nick as to why he chose what he chose, but some of it is just
some of I guess is just pretty logical, but um no, I don't really have a lot of comments on. Okay. Okay, great. So, Cheyenne, was there anything else? anything else that you wanted to update on for staff update?
Okay, great. Um, so at this time we can now move to a citizen speak. Um, if there's anyone here in the public who would like to join us, welcome. Good evening. Good evening everyone. Is this close enough? Yes. Um,
one additional point. Welcome to Cheyenne although I can't see her. And you might want to double check a recent review of some of the requirements is when you are having a meeting, everyone's has to be seen visibly on Zoom. So double check into that. Just
passing that along along with the other reason that I'm here tonight. Um, right. Thank you so much. um especially for Cheyenne Diane Dulio Agustinino uh town meeting member since 1983
and a former warrant committee member for years and a former selectman for years currently or possibly we're still in waiting for reappointments although they weren't done legally last year by the town bylaws and that's really why I'm here at your citizens speak I have
grave concerns about way too many legal you know technicalities being ignored Um but I'm chair of conservation and commission. So Cheyenne, I look forward to meeting you in person someday. You received each of the members along with the select board along with the clerk as
soon as it um was brought to my attention received copies of the concern that the article 5 and six were not properly or legally disposed of at town meeting. And I'm just going to give a little bit of background as to, you
know, I've never been a lawyer. However, all of these years studying the law for the town of Milton, um, has really led me to this situation. Tonight I sat along with Maggie who was a co-signer of a citizen citizen citizens article and
several of you um actually all of you are still the same elected officials on some of the very topics that I've now pinpointed we have not abided by state and local laws. Um and the reason that
our citizens article to finally put Pope's pond under the care, custody and control of the conservation commission per the 1963, I believe article that passed in town meeting was because as the war committee sat here
um the vote was 50/50 tied vote sounds kind of familiar to the land land swap vote, you know, by one vote and the um chair of The conservation commission was here. He came to the table informed the warrant committee. Any day now the land
court was going to approve moving the post pond under the care custody and control of what the land swap requested which was to split it between the park department for that 5.5 acres or
something and the conservation. Now you're sitting here saying Diane why are you explaining this to to us? Because here we are over 24 months later and the land court is not and most likely never will be able to legally do that because
state lawyers informed Maggie and myself your 1963 motion article that passed must allow it to go to the conservation commission for the air custody patrol. And then when you listen and start digging into these things, it even gets
more concerning as to who is overseeing that we're following the law. Because you'll recall I stood at town meeting and questioned adding $250,000 to go to in the warrant it says Peverly Park. Well, Pely Park, we can't just
give a quart of a million dollars to a park. Um I called the Department of Revenue legal department. They confirmed to me, well, town council would know that appropriations can only be made to
the entity that has the care, custody, and control of the land. And yet, we went through town meeting. I think it's over 300,000 now. So what I'm bringing before you the issues on article five and six has individuals who took the
oath of office to uphold federal, state and local laws is that at town meeting the I'll read this to the um town moderator and according to the bylaws the moderator we only have one
moderator at a time in the town of Milton because the moderator wisely decided decided to recuse herself. There was the need for town meeting to have a motion made of a nomination and then for a vote to be
taken. After that vote was taken is when the individual who received the most votes would be sworn into office to be the temporary moderator. At that point, and only at that point, would they have the authority to oversee and moderate
article 5 and six? Those are the two articles that come under your jurisdiction and that you're responsible for. So the moderator when um I emailed to request when the individual was sworn
in because if you'll recall on the second night other people had questioned the temporary moderator and he commented he was sworn in. Um the lawyers that I spoke to explained after your vote after Tommy vote is when you should have you know that's when the swearing in could
have happened right on stage as other towns might do. So it sounds like a small technicality except there were other issues. Um you'll recall on article six and I can always I might not have given you each of these serious
concerns of legality that so the I also spoke to and provided information to the attorney general's municipal law unit because they did after review a few years ago of the electronic voting devices and the way those were put into
they agreed the town violated the law. um the certification document that goes with the submission of the article does not fully explain um that whether or not the law was upheld at town meeting. It's looked at
by the town of Milton as well we saw this we heard this that doesn't mean it was legal and to think about where this could end up years from now. So, article um six, the citizens article did not
have the map date on the certification form to the attorney general municipal law unit. The map dates very important to make sure um at town meeting. I brought this up to the temporary moderator and yet when he brought it up
to town meeting, I do not recall and I have to review the tape and it's important that you do. Um this was a citizens article. citizens articles, you can't just say, "Oh, are we going to change this?" Like if they if you wanted article five to be amended, you would
say, "Yes, we accept a friendly motion." And you know, you don't have to vote it. But with the citizens article, it would have had to have been, you know, there were what, at least 10 that are in the book, but there were many other art um
signers on that article. So just all of a sudden inserting a map date is not is very questionable as well as the fact that there was a large amendment to the um what was in the warrant with the extra with the streets actually
identified. So if the map was not in the warrant, the exact date to let the citizens who might be concerned know and I know um former selectman Roxanne Mosto spoke to this that you know people are asking her wait a minute my street all of a sudden is mentioned um and I really
you know I don't want to take too much of your time but we could end up putting the town in such a legal bind if article 5 and article 6 are not properly the word is disposed of and thankfully or
Not thankfully the um actual moderator the moderator did go back to the podium and state don't leave yet I need to take control back. So town meeting was legally um dissolved. So you can't just
say oh it wasn't legally dissolved we can we have to reopen. It was only it was not even properly adjourned. It was fully dissolved. So, the question with someone overseeing the debate, overseeing the votes, um, not having
been sworn in after an election, that's almost like me saying, "I'm going to run for the planning board next year, but I'm going to go upstairs and get sworn in now." You know, it's it's just not something that you can do. Um, and there there's been no response. Uh a lot of
lawyers that I have talked to well what are they coming back to you with has an answer. I don't see how they can I also over a month ago asked for um the moderators not the moderator town council's errors and omission proof when I was a seated selectman I requested
that because we had a lot of contracts there were questions on the contracts I wasn't even given it as a seated selectman. So that should be a matter of public information because we've also heard about Tom Dary. Oh, he might not have
had ever omission which that was all just hearsay when I am telling you I've requested and under public records I have not received it to even find out. Okay, all these questions at town meeting when we have town council being paid to sit there to make sure that you
all make legal choices and that we as town meeting members pass things legally. Just the same way with the William Woods. um or the land swap article and the Pope's Pawn article and the other big thing that I learned and it's right in the state law. Uh the deed
for lamb woods was 100% in perpetuity because it was conservation land. It says it right under Mass General Law 184 section 31 um whether or not stated in any deed.
That raises serious questions as to what town council presented to us and that only won by one vote. So I am really imploring you, you know, you can call and ask me any of the details. Thank you. But it's very important that your
article 5 and article 6 every step of the way because I probably didn't mention all the questionable steps. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you maintaining your open for bringing this attention to this time. Okay, great. Thank you.
Okay. Um, anyone on Zoom? Cheyenne, are you seeing any hands up who would like to speak? Speak. Okay, great. Thank you. then we can move on to our um our next item on
the agenda and that will be um to discuss the articles for fall town meeting. Um, I know we we had organized a list of things that we were going to think about and sort of prioritize. Um, I had sent out um ask
Cheyenne to send out um a draft of sort of a template that I thought we could work through in thinking about the sign a sign review. I thought that would be one. I know I don't know if people have had a chance to look at Cheyenne had also sent a few of the Airbnbs. I know
that was um a concern or anything else um that folks want to discuss, but I thought if we could at least try to get one thing accomplished, you know, for town meeting, it would be nice to check off another another box. So, is that
okay if we walk sort of through this and discuss one? Um I don't know. Yeah. one thing that was on it might be on the list but from 2019 and I'm trying to think of things that are kind of low hanging fruit y
2019 there was um an actually I'm not sure when it was first adopted but the traffic impact mitigation you know triggers a contribution to the fund there was a miss in there where the business districts were left out of
having to um be subject to it Okay. And we the board at the time brought an amendment and it got sent back for further study and it's not been studied since. But it's a missed opportunity.
You know, I think we asked for it for um maybe for 40 grand a when it wasn't being triggered. So I I just thought that that was one. It's like if this, you know, project is going to contribute
to traffic and parking issues, then they would have to make a contribution into a fund that is for that particular neighborhood. Well, the fund is one for the town, but it's for the business distri distribution out would have to go towards the neighborhood impacted by the
project which made the contribution. So, I can get get that out. Uh, but I just want for our next meeting, but I just wanted to raise that since we didn't talk about it before. I think that would be great. And it it's doesn't it's not it's the work's been done in the past. I think I
don't recall what the concerns were at the time. I'd have to go back and look. Um, but if u if you're interested, I I will do that for the next Seems like a simple Yeah, especially if most of the work has been done on it, then I would think
that'd be easy enough. It's one of those that was sent back for further study. So, we just have to look at what what the concerns were. All right. And that was an amendment to the traffic and bylaw. I'm sorry. It was the traffic impact mitigation.
Um I can look up which section of the code it is at at at some point, but it was um that's good. Article 4 in 2019. Okay. It looks like on my list, which is the list that Joshu
Eertly put together. Was that on your list, too? Um, Julia, I didn't have a print out, a print of everything that's on your list, so I Okay. And then as far as signage, um,
is the signage. Do you want Cheyenne to pull up the list that we had talked about? Cuz Sean wasn't here, so that might be just helpful for Sean. Yeah, I wasn't either. Yeah. And Jim, I'm sorry. Um, yeah, we had a small crew and we were out by 8:15. So, you missed a good meeting. That was a good one.
I try to say less. So, we're out by 810. Um, Cheyenne, if you wouldn't mind pulling up those lists. Me, too. That Julia had built. Yeah. And just like a general list. I don't have a list from Julia. I just rewatched the Zoom and made a list from
what we talked about. Um, just cuz people wanted to know what we were proposing. or it can be Julia's. Yeah, either one. That's So, while she's doing that, um, this that that Josh had put together in May of 23, um, identified things that had
been discussed but hadn't made it to any formal language for submission. Mhm. Um but something that I have I dug back out from my list here and from 2018 Maggie it's aligning
um nursery and farm language with state language and Marian McCre had supplied some language for that. Yeah, I don't um I don't know if that's something for the the fall because of the limited time, but I I would like for us not just to
decide about the fall now, but to decide about the spring because it'll be here before we know it, right? And we'll have a lot more time to be easy to the things that might take a little more time. Yeah. Or public input. Um but we want to pri I I just think we should prioritize which things that we
think we can do now and what we can do in the spring. Can you increase the size of that to see sort of what? Yeah, I can try this on top.
Yeah, that would be my right. Exactly. Yeah, just for general. Um Yeah. So, what else while she's doing that? Um that the small cell wireless I think was something that
5G. Yeah, the 5G. Um, and that's something I think that is already pulled together in and the cut and fill which we've talked about. Um, and I had done some work with Tim and Denny Swinson on that before and
it got paired back to what that tree bylaw was. But, um, it does um, it was something that Joe Pondac was involved with and I have notes from those discussions with him. I think it's important like we're going to lack a
little bit of institutional knowledge in the build in the building department, but I think it it's important to get their feedback um because they're the ones who have to, you know, look at applications and decide what conforms and doesn't conform. And then also the ZBA because
they're also the ones that the complaints the well they look at the complaints but they also have to make the variances and the special permits and so forth. So, I uh I think it'd be important to ask them if there's things that they think are lowhanging fruit that um that we should
address. Well, one thing on the cut and fill and I I appeared before the pointy board um you know when believe it was Cheryl and Rich and
Kathleen and Denny and the cut and fill bylaw covers a lot of seemingly dissimilar um topics. You would think that in my mind cut and
fill was literally you're going in and cutting land away and then bringing land in for projects. But one of the last paragraphs on the cut and fill references um nurseries
having the ability to bring in clean earthn materials and for everyday use and it I requested I I think it was like back in 20 20
maybe that that really was a very Oh, I think Meredith you were on it do. At that point, I provided language, it really should be taken out of the cut and fill because it has nothing to do with cutting and filling. And so, if
we're looking at the cut and fill, then I think we have to look at the whole thing and we might have to parse it out and put it uh into the correct um under the correct heading in our zoning. So again, our shade tree shouldn't
should not be in cut and fill. That should be a different article. So I think that's cut and fill is just kind of very unwieldy. It needs to be addressed. Yeah. And I don't think that's something that can be done for fall. I don't think it's something that can be done in one
meeting. But I there is a new building commissioner who will be coming on board. it would be nice to include um and I had done I had taken a look at what some other communities have um for this topic and
there was a there's a model land clearing grading and protection of specimen trees bylaw that's um the Cape Cod Commission has it's a model bylaw so like Cape Cape Towns can adopt uh from that model bylaw the way I understand it so
that would be interesting to Yeah. And then there was um there are a couple other communities that had some. So the trigger, one of the things that was up that I was really surprised about was there was no permit required unless it
was something like 7,500 cubic yards, which is a lot. And um so like you you know the property out on the very end of Canton Avenue right before it makes that right turn to to connect with um Bluehav. Um
there's a couple of fences and shrubs etc. That's all fill. And I remember calling Joe Pondac about it and asking him for the plans the the site plans that showed all the fill. and he didn't he only had
plans for like the uh structure there. And I said, "Well, did did you make a determination that this didn't require a permit for the fill?" And he he had made that determination.
Um but if the bylaw isn't that explicit, then it's an interpretation of the building commissioner. Um, so in on a scenic road to me, you're putting in that kind of fill with fencing, you're changing the character of the scenic
road, right? And so whether cut and fill addresses scenic road differently and or proximity to a property line, that's kind of like a retaining wall to me when you're when the way they did that. And so it's a retaining wall. Yeah,
4x2 concrete blocks you'd see on the side of a highway. Yeah, I mean it might Can't believe they did that on a scenic road. And with no permit triggered. So I thought the uh cut and fill was a,000 cubic yards that it triggered if you were bringing in over 1,000 cubic
yards. You need a special permit. And that happens a lot in especially on scenic roads and in um historic neighborhoods because we're all on um septic. So we it happens a lot in my
neighborhood and so um when a property sold um behind the nursery and they were bringing in um they had to go through the ZBA to bring in over a thousand cubic yards to do a
um raised septic system and you it just has to get done. But my concern was at the time that this race septic system was literally feet from my
property line and we had just spent a lot of money on a new drainage system. And my concern was if the ZBA approved this raised septic system, how would it impact any properties downstream?
And um that's a concern and they granted it and a beautiful house was built. Um but they have a racist uh system that affects abudding um properties.
I I have to go back. I'm not finding it. Um, so right now, but I in one of my notes just quickly on this and you may want to talk move on to other things, but a couple of the things is that Joe Ponduct had said at the time that the by
that bylaw our cut and fill is rarely used once or twice a year he had said and it doesn't take into account the size of a lot. So if you had a 2 acre, 3 acre, 4 acre versus a quarter acre, the trigger is still the cubic yards. So
obviously that's a lot different for a small lot than it is for a large lot. And there was nothing that was requiring anything about a balance of cut and fill or net figures or anything. So, um, you know, I think again
we I can dig through that my notes again and kind of put a summary together from where we got with it before. And we had also talked about doing a like a sub commmittee on this because I think this will take some coordination. And this will be something that's super
important, but something that we'll need um input from ZBA, from you know, from what we've seen here on the planning board and what a building commissioner would have to add. Um and probably the DPW because of storm water.
Yeah. Rags, right? Which brings me also to the stormwater rags because a lot of you remember Walcott Woods a lot of the earth was disturbed up front in order to put in the storm water retention structures. So you're get you're having to do a lot of cut to put in the
structures underneath which impacts trees too which we've u we've seen in other projects. So you like to be a subcommittee also function standpoints in it. So my
So Sean maybe yeah, we're shooting for the spring for this or we shoot this would be spring. Okay. Yeah. And I would I would think that the articles will probably be due in what? February for spring. Yeah. Yeah. It's time for that. Yeah.
Thing is it's hard to measure. Um believe it's 1,000 cubic yards on a trailer. 1,000 cubic yards to ensure that it's not in excess of so enforcement. Yeah.
Yeah. That's that's a that part is a challenge because you will still end up with a balanced site. you know, you may have organic material on the site that isn't, you know, can't be utilized for. It gets a bit complicated. Yeah. I I I don't even know how we enforce it, but for some reason, I feel like it's 800
yards, not 1,000, but I can't remember. But I'd be happy. And I'm thinking, you know, the the whole reason to address it is because of the site planning and the projects that we've re we review um such as the memory care and we've got
the subdivision on on Pleasant um some of the daycare facilities with the the large storm water retention um necessitating
site planning around these things, you know. So, I do think um having a on the trees as well because you know people I don't know how you you probably have heard too but the 40B on Brushill
Road where they just kind came in and cut all the way into that hill and you know a lot of people don't like at least so far the way that's looking. Um, so that was okay. Yeah, I think that's that that would be
great. So that is one that we've earmarked that we definitely would like to. I know the the bed and um the um sorry Airbnb short and see if there's something that we could have a template for
that we could do. I don't know if we could get it done by fall, but it's important with I think with the ADUs that that when those start to go into um was there something that's been worked
on before? We have not. Okay. So, um with it was from other towns what Cheyenne sent out. I see. Okay. So, we might need to I first do an article a few years ago
for Airbnbs. I That's why I was asking, but I don't recall. Um I'd have to go back and look through our records. Yeah, I don't see. Yeah, today I did see You saw some You saw one? Okay.
Cuz there is something that the building department refers to, but I didn't think it was a separate Airbnb. I have to read it. I just saw the title. Yeah, we can ask Walter White maybe check out um cuz there was there was um a complaint in East
Milton's where that one was being used for in came to the office just tonight and he told him that you guys are considering this and he said they're absolutely not allowed. So So maybe there is something that did go through town meeting.
Okay. So we should find out about that. Good. And I I'll talk to Jay. J's would know. Um, okay. And then the the other things on the list, how is it? Those are um housing production plan. We talked
how long would it take to do a housing production plan. I understand that the select board is taking the lead on that and our because I think I watched a part of a meeting where they saying
Do you they did not hear us for everything. Last time we looked off. We were still getting our consultant. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I misunderstood. And were you able to reach out to the person who did ours the last time?
Yes, we did. Um last time the last update was from our last meeting and she said that she's interested. So I was quite happy with it. Okay. So that is in the work that's moving along. Oh, so these were where we were talking about use of funds. Yeah, this was a funds use. Yeah, this
was a little different, but um if Yeah, these aren't the the zoning articles that we Oh, we sign review bylaw. We did have that. I think these were general things that we were talking about. The recotification would
be a zoning um change, but again that's not something I I think they could get done for September. But I would love to see that get done for the spring. Yeah. What's the seven say? What's number seven? Rules and
rules and rags. Um show we were talking about reviewing those. Okay. I think that's a spring. Well, that doesn't have to go to town meeting. So that that's just that's our own work. Some of that though is I think with
coordination with DPW because we have this um in the rules and rags we have this uh road section. Find it here.
And we've gr granted wave many times because this is a 50- foot rideway um and requires sidewalks uh on both sides and um yeah there's just it hasn't been
really updated or looked at in a long time and you know it requires granite curb and we've often done u cod burm and other um waivers other waiverss and so like there's this
is a marked up from August of 19 2019 that has long been on people's radar but this is not just a planning board thing I mean a DPW engineering um item and just like the storm water rugs
should we think we can get done for fall like that's what I'm trying to do so um I think Airbnb and B is huge. We have something. We may already have something review is the sign of
those two are the biggest are big. The 5G thing which I as I said before I didn't really know what that was but you say that's practically done anyway. And can I just or Cheryl, do you want to mention
a public hearing on July 30th and do you Yeah, it's on the This is This is why I'm worried about signage. It's like and this would be a special permit. It's going to the ZBA on this, but I think residents need to know because all of
and this is this is something that's being proposed and part of I don't know what we can do about things like this where it's operating under a variant that was granted in 1962
but for where in that mess I don't call them mess but you know between the roadways and the highway that commercial building that's actually in the residential district we talked about that with the use overlay
where quantum hits Adams yeah that building the US trust I mean Rockland by 16 1/2 ft illuminated channel letter sign to be installed um facing the highway
for and the applicant is the Russian School of Mathematics and um I I called Kathleen the um she's not on the
panel but she did look it up and so there is a filing that if we wanted to look up and look at it but there's no mockup. I do remember though. Sorry. They had I believe like a month ago. Okay. I was like a whole thing to get them
kind of where they are now, but I do. Okay. So, we have a meeting on July 24th. Mhm. Could we put on our agenda a discussion that and then we could send the ZBA our thoughts and let them know
that we are in the process of reviewing our sign and it might be too premature for them to be granting anything at this point in time. Well, certainly we're illuminated signs are are becoming an issue. So exter not internally illuminated I
should say um not externally but and so one of the things about the signs I agree with you but I do think we still can do the traffic impact mitigation for the fall. Yeah. Yeah I do too. the signs when I um I called Tim today because I wanted to ask
him what he recall together 10 years ago and uh he said that the the business district signage was updated or amended rather in 2017 but it didn't fully encompass some things like
it did not ban billboards and neon um and it did not address in the residential districts which this one that we just spoke about is one of those. But you can think about their nursery or Eagle Farm or Thomas or Nukem
or I mean all a lot of businesses actually on Rand but 11s they were all um residential. There's no they end up having to go with there's no zoning that addresses them. So I I think that
we we would want to tie at at a minimum tie it to the business same thing to the business right and it does break that subject. Um, and then the other thing Tim said is that um the the handbook
um needs to have a better connection to the zoning because when someone's making a decision signs um you you have to have something that's defendable according to
Tim like town council like can't defend you know it's not there's not enough here to defend right like can you deny a sign based on what's in the current kind of is you can't and that's what that's the
that's the problem is it has to be and then this was what so when Julia called me when she couldn't reach you I said this would be a good thing for everyone to have because this is what's in the zoning the handbook and then Tim's so I I know you had asked me for this but
yeah adding was. Yeah. So, from a process um we've identified how many five or six that we want by fall. No, I think two by fall. We two by fall. Um and then um
so should we assign it to that's what I was trying to think. Should we assign to your point committees on these? Yeah. So that's my point too about thinking about spring is it's going to take a lot longer. So, we shouldn't wait two months to decide who's going to work on them because it'll creep up fast. And if it
takes coordination with other boards and committees and staff, it takes time to get those meetings scheduled. I think we should try and say these are our goals for the spring, too. And who's going to work on them, right? Because um otherwise, I think it'll be hard to meet
our deadline. So, what are we saying for the fall? What two sign bylaw? I think if if the sign can address both business and residential or if it needs to be two separate I think traffic impact mitigation
just expanding it to make sure it covers the district all the districts. I think it was an oversight in terms of the language before. So I think this what Tim drafted does address both residential and business. So, when we go when we get to that. But,
um, but I think those two would be good. And then the cut and fill for spring. The recotification if we can do that for spring. I think the nursery farm
nursery farm for spring since it's been on 2018. And that's mostly I mean that's fairly easy the nursery farm because it's just getting um state law state law. It's not necessarily changing anything. It's just becoming current
um Mhm. Where's Airbnb? I think that's and we'll double check that to see what we already have. I'll I can talk I'll I'll talk to Jay and find out what he's referring to is saying you can't do an Airbnb
because if he's saying it's not allowed and that's the official stance then maybe we don't priority. Yeah. Okay. So fall assign review and cut and fill
and recontification. The spring is cut and fill and reconification. I about scenic road updates. Um I don't remember exactly what we were
thinking though. I think if you had we had a situation or two where applicants didn't know that they had to file for approvals and they removed trees and stonewall sections in the
public way on public right away. Right. Yeah. So I don't know if folks want to try and remember what the other thoughts about that were. Yeah. Do outreach on that. And is the shade tree uh advisory
committee are they working on a tree bylaw? I feel like they've been working on one. I I think I've they may have check. So yeah, would you follow up with them on that? That would be great. And
and we can find out from the tree warden when he's here on the 24th. I think that's a good We talked about non-conforming businesses. I don't know if that we can tackle before the spring or not, but yeah, that was mentioned.
I think there's some interest in business tax revenue. So that could be part tied together. I think we certainly keep it on. So for signs, Meredith, you're
interested in signs, right? Yes. And I'd love to go through this tonight just if we could just quickly cuz we only have this meeting in the 24th really. And then
I don't want it to feel rushed for people, but um I think what was put together is there's some little things we could change. But do we know that some of whether what
parts of this may have already been in? This would be just replacing it all. So, it would be inclusive of and I'll and I'll cross reference I'll I'll take that on to to look at that um to see what was included in this and I so I can mark it
um as what was updated. So, so when a business goes to apply for a sign, this is the packet they get. This is correct. This what they get in the checklist. Yeah. That they follow.
Yeah. So this breaks out also it's almost like our site plan review but for signs. It gives a more complete this is what you need to bring. These are all the tools. So Cheyenne if you want to pull um up on the screen.
So so Meredith can quickly Yeah. If you look at page five the bottom it says that this is replacing basically Yes. the business. It doesn't this doesn't
mention that's mentioning only business district, right? It does reference um signs and I just yeah the following addition to
with the following addition um because it does reference residential. I I was on this number. Oh, I don't have that. We want to make sure that um and when we go through it. So, I was looking at this
one that has this is the front. Yep. This one. That's the one which is the one that last updated August 3rd, 2015. Okay. Okay. it addresses.
And one other thing Tim said when he when he did this was he had looked at signed bylaws in Lexington and Welsley and other communities. So I guess what we we would need to do Meredith is to find all of the
references to signage I guess. Yeah. because it's in the def like definitions would be a different part where you're a it says so here he's saying you're amending the definition section which is part of the overall bylaw in
the front and then this goes down further into billboards and the business district right what's where signs and billboards now you found that
Julia One chapter 113. Okay. One. Yeah. Yeah. That's Do you have an extra one of these? Yes. So, we want We would want to make sure it's all included. I'll take it. I'll give it back to you. One sec.
Yeah. No, we'll probably keep that and accessory uses residency. Yeah. Okay. Um, but they're very specific. You know, I think they're they're good um
as they relate to the changes that would be or updates that would be made. So, starting with like the five intent and purpose. Um, I thought that intent and purpose was
look good. Um, pertinent to other laws. the purpose um interpretation and conflict clause severability clause. So I didn't want to we can go through that on our own and maybe have comments on that but um
getting into the applicability and then the existing science. So really starting on page seven I thought we'd we could cruise through this um try to cruise through this quickly. Um and the way Tim had written this to break down um
there's three types of existing signs. Um those existing signs are those defined as erected before be our fall town meeting and are classified into four separate categories. These are conforming signs which comply with all provisions of this bylaw and its most
recent amendment form. to prohibited signs as specified in section that needs to be filled in. Nonconforming non-conforming signs which do not comply with one or more provisions of this
bylaw in its form prior to the October and 2025 town meeting, but which are not described as prohibited signs in subsection 8. and then non-conforming protected signs which fully complied with this bylaw prior to the amendments
approved by the October 2015 meeting. Um removal of existing signs. So I was mistaken when I said this is not retroactive cuz I wanted to make sure that it's any any sign that currently exists is grandfathered and does not
need to be we wouldn't be asking anybody to take any signs down. Um but these are when the removal of existing signs when non-conforming signs which are enlarged, rewarded, redesigned, replaced or altered in any way, including repainting in a different color or releting shall
comply immediately with all provisions of this bylaw and provided further that any such sign has deteriorated um to such an extent that the cost of restoration would exceed 35% of the replacement value in time. So that that
seemed all fine. Um the building commissioner, this um talks about the building commissioner as the authority shall order the removal of all any signs erected or maintained in violation of this bylaw. 14 days notice shall be
notice in writing shall be given to the owner of such sign or the building structure or premises in which the sign is located to remove the sign or to bring it in compliance with the with the bylaw. Abandonment or failure to maintain a sign. That seems um pretty
straightforward. Then signed permits. Um, the sign permit required. All persons uh desiring to erect, install, place, construct, alter, move, or maintain a sign shall apply to the building commissioner for a permit. Exempt signs are excluded from this
requirement. So, this is um what I thought was really good is the application submittal and content. So, it makes it really clear if somebody is wanting to put up a sign um what type what you need and and if you the sign review committee um John Ziggwitz does a
wonderful job of just walking through everything that's needed um when it's applied if there's things that are missing like such as the material or the color of the signs, the type of illumination is required um to be noted, number type, you know, size, height of
sign, size of lettering. That's all things that um are asked for and those seem very straightforward and sort of pretty much what we do right now. Um for all signs, a copy of a letter from the
chairman of the sign review committee indicating the recommendation of the sign. Can we can we back up? Yes, absolutely. um nonconforming signs and nonconforming protected signs. Um on page seven.
Mhm. Going back to the definitions and I don't see those being I I suppose non-conforming straightforward enough, but protected like is not defined. So like what's Yeah. That they would be protected. What's protected? Like is it free speech
protection type signs like but it's not a defined it's protected. Yes. So I think we would need to know what what that is. Okay. Good.
This pile up, right? And all these dates would just need to be the new date, right? And then I guess isn't that the definition right there? Non-conforming protected sides like number four. I take that as signs which
fully complied with the bylaws prior to the amendments approved by October 15. Right. So they're there's no need to change those signs. We're just sort of adopting them. Yeah. So isn't it so wouldn't that be the the definition? I mean I I don't I'm not looking for Where are you What page are you looking on?
Page seven existing signs number four. I mean, it seems like one through four are all which fully complied with this bylaw definitions, right? Like a conforming sign is it doesn't say assign which but it should say conforming signs are signs which comply with all provisions of this bylaw in its most recently amended form.
I guess to me that makes sense. Okay, all four of those kind of make sense if you just put the word after number two prohibited signs are signs as specified in section. It just seems like it it's missing one little phrase.
might write the number three. You're thinking more. Well, I'm looking at conforming sign and it says it complies with all the provisions of the bylaw. And then I look at nonconforming and it says it's fully complies with the bylaw,
but there's no amendments that have been I guess I'm not quite understanding prior to the amendments approved cuz we don't have any amendments yet, right? So I guess I think that's the idea. If there's a non-con if there's a sign that kind of
meets the criteria before October 15th, it's non-conforming protected. So there's no need to change it. That's the way I take that. But is it protected to is protected mean that if they want to change it in the future, they get to keep it the what they had before? Like if I look down to
the existing sign, it says removal existing signs, but it also says enlarged, rewarded, redesigned or altered. So that's not really replacing. So when they like if you non-conforming signs which are enlarged,
rewarded or altered. So is it protected if it's not if it's before if you're replacing if you're rewarding it and it's not or if you're going to redesign it if you re that's more than 35% that's what if it is just
but is isn't that the reference to um that section 8 you know when you turn to it there's a category of signs that are called exempt signs are exempt signs and protected signs referring to the same type of sign which page You looking at Sean
14. Yeah. When you get exempt signs are a type of sign and prohibited reads, the following sign shall be allowed by right without the necessity of a sign permit. Is that
is that a non-conforming protected sign? An ex? Yeah, exempted signs are different than prohibited signs if you turn the page. Yeah, it could. Right. So, there's a category of that
defines prohibited signs. I take the exempted signs to be like a handicap bathroom sign or exit sign or street. It gets into the detail. Long description of what an exempt sign is. Oh, you're right. goes all the way to page 15. Wow.
Holiday decorations. And some of this came about due to there was the reason some of this didn't get changed back then is there was a a a case before the Supreme Court about what's protected under free speech. That's kind of what I was thinking when I said
the pro what this protected mean. And maybe this is where it defines it. But so what is the history of this? This is this is noted as proposed zoning back in October 2015 10 years ago. Did it not get
it? Never it never Tim left. That's when he went left. But there was a 2015 that's 10 years ago. Tim was in No, he was assistant planner. Then he left. He was assistant town planner. But what happened was this this case and so um there was when Alex Whiteside was still
on the board that there was this I sense that there was only so much you could do with changing the signage requirements until that case was decided and that's why there was a limited amendment that went forward in 2017.
Um and then I think there was it never once that case was decided it never got revisited or never got moved forward with a change in personnel but that's why it didn't happen in that at this
2015. Oh, that makes Yeah. But I think that the I the there is a certain class of signs that are considered protected, but not this type that we're trying to regulate here. And I think that's that's where a town
council or someone should take a look at this and make sure that it's consistent with that with that law. And can the so protected the way that I look at as a protected sign is the free speech sign and can
those I know that businesses aren't business signs advertising a commercial use are not considered protected right but the as far as the size there was like there's I don't remember now Maggie but there was it was surprising that really there was you could put something up
like in your yard that was you know pretty visible. decrying some whatever issue that you the person was concerned about and that's considered protected but it was not advertising business. Yeah. Right. So, you know, I'm not
saying we I think every I believe in free speech and so um my questions are just is it the size of the sign related to like the size of the building or the size? That's what's in here. Yeah. Size of a lot.
So, it describes it. So, even if it's a protected use, a protected sign, there's a limit to the size. There's a limit to the size. Yeah. And Ied protected is to be it's protected
meaning that you can maintain that sign um because it was approved. Well, no. Yeah. Protected. it it's protected if it was before October 20,
but if you go and change it, that non-conforming, it's sort of like if you take a house that is a non-conforming resident, single family home, and you tear that down or a garage, you're now prone now you have to follow the current
zoning that may not have been in place when when that house was built. So, like I always go back to mine. I've taken down a sign because it was in disrepair. I've also had a sign hit on Route 28 and
I haven't replaced that yet. So now Emma and those were um grandfathered in. Were those special permit? Were those special permit those signs? Um, no, no, because the selectment at the time could
give um they do the well they sign permits and so we got a sign out on Route 28 through that simple process, you know, forever ago, right? 50 years ago, right?
Um, and it gets by the plow. So it's so that would you would probably you know go before the sign review committee who would Yeah. I don't know if I I think you would if it's take it down. Yeah. Don't put it back up and then you want
to put it back up in a certain amount of time. I think you have to go before the sign review committee. And that seems like that would be protected. But I'm I'm Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. If you take it down and put it back up,
you it might um I know like St. Michael's church just went they're going to put up a new sign they and changing color and they just went through the sign review committee everything you know that's surprising really because I would think that they're um I don't
they're protected that's I know I was but they did go before sign review committee so those are all yeah we'll have to define I I guess what what protected is and what exempt is yeah I just it's not clear to me yet but
I I can one need to continue looking at but a question and that's why this is this is to sort of filter out some of those things that we want to identify with removing of his existing signs um
and then okay so the application and submittal and content I think that's really helpful to applicants again like our site plan approval um the following attachments necessary
copy should So, one of the things Yeah. So, I just wanted to say, is this bringing back memories of looking at this years ago? This is I don't know if my brain works that well anymore for 10 years, but yes. Um, does this did this require some kind of
visualization on the building of the sign on the building? because it says color photographs of the property, but now it's it's pretty common with technology that's available to do a simulation of the signage on the building
and they've been doing I've noticed that I think that should be a requirement if it's not good because I um I've been noticing the applicants are doing that so it might apparently they haven't for that big one on Yeah, that Yeah, I don't
um science dimensional drawing lettering words. So how would you how would you word that? Um I'll come up with something color photographs of the property and under yeah somewhere under there I would say some kind of a visualization
or mockup. Um could that would be under four maybe added to that. Yeah, I would add a a separate line there visualization
which would you know in um show the the sign in um three-dimensionally on the on a photograph or a rendering to scale or something like that, you
know. So it's not just yeah a hand scribble the building. Okay, we'll work on that. Okay. Um let's see. So can we just go through that list
again? So the purpose the dimensions and so did they did they give there was not a we haven't gotten to a size limit yet right that's coming. Yeah that's coming. Okay but the um I I did think as it under um six appropriate fees as set
from time to time by the board of selectmen. I feel like that should be the building commissioner because they typically said the fees because they're applying the following attachments and necessary copies as required by the building
commissioner shall be submitted. That's a question for select board maybe Nick. I don't know cuz I don't think they when they apply I don't know who gets those fees currently. So I can ask John to um
the building department. Um and then the town shall process sign permit applications within 30 days. Um a receipt of complete and accurate application by the building
commissioner. color photographs that should be um and there should be renderings for new construction because this is assuming the signs are all on existing buildings. Isn't that in three such drawings shall
be to a legible architect scale? I'm thinking that that's like elevations. Okay. So photograph of the facade. Um I'm thinking threedimensional, right?
Not two-dimensional, right? Three dimensional rendering on the building visualized on the building. because I kind of thinking like the way I read those above I read those as two dimensional because when you say to an architect's scale normally you're
talking about a two-dimensional drawing right so I just think it's good to be explicit that we also require three that's a good point cuz it the depth and width H.
Okay. Anything else from that? And again, this is so now the way it works if is if is if the building commissioner rejects a sign application, it goes to the either the board of appeal or select board. Do we
know? I think the building commissioner refers it to the to sign review committee. Okay. Is how it's so the selection only have review over lit signs. Is that their um an appeal actually? So if they get
denied too, right? So that if they get denied at the sign review committee, which for example, the digital billboard for um the fitness center, which started off as the sleepy's mattress sign um on
the expressway, that was an appeal that was um granted by the select board. It was um they went and appealed it. They were denied. And now that applicant comes back every year and the sign review committee denies them every year. So
they just haven't changed it. It's it's like caught in this cycle. But they're grandfathered in. They would be able to keep that sign. But um not that I want to take on more work, but do you think the select board's the appropriate um board to hear um these?
Well, that's what I'm going to get to. I was thinking we should it would be the ZBA might be the better um path forward for appeal. You would have to have a public hearing. Um I mean it could come back to us, but
the selectman normally don't have public hearings. So I would think that the neighbors would want to say usually an appeal would go to the board of appeals. That's what I would think. I I would think that's where it would go. That's what I was think that's what I was going
to recommend when we get to that point on the authority as far as like the design like if there's a project that's subject to our review like commercial buildings over 60 600 ft or these others right we do
provide some feedback on signage right but they still have to go through their their signage the signage review package um so do we when those come in though like is there anything about those kind of signs
like for the memory care facility contemplated in here? Do we know um Meredith like I don't it talks about types of signs. If we go back for a moment to what's well maybe it's going to go going forward there'll be types of signs but
there was for types of signs. The submission requirements are different for standing signs versus um um you know an awning or some or a wall mount sign. I think it does get into that a little
bit. It talks about protruding signs or different but I'm thinking those I forget what they're called now but the kind like at the memory care facility where it's out in the landscape. There's a there's a term for that kind of sign that I'm just not remembering it. But does that do you remember if that's in here? Because
it talks about setback. It it talks about size. Um I think when we get Yeah, let's um So time limit. Yes. Oh yes, Kathleen. Yeah. Welcome Kathleen.
Yes. Hi, I just um on the sign thing I just wanted to say that the current process is that if you get denied by the building commissioner goes to the board of appeals. Okay. Um not to the select board,
not to the sign committee. Um as I said, it's an appeal of a denial of a building permit. So that's the nor that's the process for it. You have no jurisdiction of the planning board for the denial. I mean any denial of a building permit for
anything um goes to the board of appeals, not the planning board, right? No, I think what's happened is it goes to the the sign review committee and then if they deny a sign that has been going to the select board, but if
it's a special permit such as the one that's being proposed on the 30th, it was a it's under a special permit because it's a resident it's a business in a residential district. So, it's under the business itself is under a special permit.
Um I don't think that's how it is coming to us, but um um you know I said it because there's already there's already signs on that building. Um yeah, it we did we did hear the one for the heart Dental. That was one that that I
was that I sat on. Um Rockland Trust, I think they just switched out the the the writing from Blue Hill Bank or whatever that was before. Um, so I don't think that went anywhere. But this is a new sign on the north side of the building, right? So they applied for a building permit
to, you know, they applied to install it and that was denied and they were told they had to come to us. So that's how that process happened. Yeah. To go off the C. I don't know if this committee at all or the select board.
Yeah. There have been so it came before the sign review committee. Um Okay. And originally it had the whole thing had started a couple years back with the heart dental and I guess they had got rejected had to go to the select board got it appealed um and then accepted and
so we had actually been like working with the building owners because they're now letting other residents put up signs but because there was like this initial agreement where there could only be one sign. We had them actually come to a sign review meeting with the Russian School of Mathematics applicants.
Yeah. Um to kind of appeal their sign review decision. So where we had left it was that the entire building owner was supposed to get that denial built before ZBA um and kind of open it up so that we could get the Russian school to get their sign up there. So the Russian
school itself was approved, but we need to deny it to open it up to get them on there. Oh, okay. But I just wanted to sort of go to Maggie's comment about the fact that you know we have a process and you can't we can't delay things because the planning
board might want to reduce we might want to revise the sign committee when we have boards of appeals have specific time frames by which they have to make their decisions hold their hold their hearings make decisions and so we can't you know postpone that um while you
folks work on a on a new signed bylaw. No, we're that's wouldn't be the case that we're that that all is going forward and the and the sign review committee is not being changed at all. Although in this I think it says there's four members and I believe there's five um which Tim or
planning staff sits in on. Um so that it doesn't affect wouldn't change that at all. Yeah. According to um section 275-3.3 um three Mhm. Business District uses
actually four. It says appeal to select board, an applicant, planning board, plan review committee, or person agreved by a permit issued by the building commissioner or denial of a permit may appeal to the select board in the same
manner as an appeal from an enforcement order of the building commissioner may be taken to the board of appeals. The select board shall establish specific procedures for such appeals. In the event of an appeal, the building commissioner after consultation with the sign review committee may authorize
tempor temporary advertising signs during continuence of an appeal. So that's in the existing zoning and I think it should go to the ZBA. I don't necessarily feel like the planning board needs to hear that. Um but that this language would be replaced
by what we're reviewing right now tonight. Right. So yeah, I don't see how you folks have jurisdictions over time is all I'm trying to say. So I mean on a project that you've already got before you, you know, for a building and that sort of
thing, you know, yes, you're sort of doing a, you know, a brand new building, you would be controlling the some part of the signs, but I don't think that you've got jurisdiction over, you know, this type of situation. Um, well, I don't think we have it over an
appeal. That's no that's not what yeah that that's not my point was so we were just actually I think Kathleen thinking about whether this makes sense for it to be appealed to the select board rather than the board of appeal and on a sign
um I don't know how the select board has a has the ability to um seek relief from a zoning bylaw right I mean a by I don't know how the select board can do that all right so you agree that it should go to the board of appeal Yeah, because in the bylaw right now
it's an accessory use, right? Okay. So, we we do agree on that with you on that. Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Kathleen. Sorry. That's all right. Thank you very much cuz that's it's helpful. It is helpful. Okay.
All right. Um, so we were application. So, I was looking at design review and it says all signs requiring a signed permit or special permit under the provisions of the section shall require the review of the sign review committee. So, do you recall
seeing where it says assigned permits required? There is um language. Yes. Okay. And there's authority for the permit. Yeah. So, that's so application rejection. Um Okay. What page do you want now?
10. 10 years. So F permit revocation. So that's the building commissioner there. Expiration date. Um penalties.
This is where I also thought this should be the building department. Um fines that establish I don't know that the the board of selectman want to establish fines. That seems like that's more
in the building department. Shouldn't there be a predetermined um chart of fine of fines? We could because I had a situation. How are the
Yeah. How are they? How do how does the building department It's um um and I was not happy with the way that my fine was determined by the building inspector. He when after we got our special permit,
we were in the process of installing our drainage system and we were fined by the building inspector because we started our machine 15
minutes before. That fine was $1,000. I got fined for a failure to notify. That was fine by $1,000. and I had a fine of a truck being on the property, which was a fine of $1,000.
The original fine was $5,000 per offense. I had to hire a lawyer. The lawyer had to talk to town council and we negotiated it down to $1,000 per offense. And so
there should be consistency with fines. Consistency and there should be um a chart question like a schedule of fines like a schedule of fines and and um so I I think that has to
we should find out more. So, but I do I don't think necessarily the selectmen want to the select board, you know, um want to take that on, but we can talk to the building department to
see if that would make sense. Um, all signs requiring a signed permit or special permit under the provisions. So signed permit under the provisions of this section shall require the review of the sign review committee. So the sign
review committee shall be appointed by the board of selectman. That's how we do it now on an annual basis. The committee will have this says four members. One of whom is the director of planning and community development. Um and others who
whom are residents or owners of businesses within the town. At least one member shall be an architect, urban designer or planner which is the case on that board. The member shall choose the chairman annually. The committee shall act as an advisory board according to
the requirements of the section. So that this all seems this process section C um is consistent with how they're operating at this point. Um so I don't think there was nothing there that needed to be
changed. um criteria criteria for review. Um these are all again I think what is currently how it's operating with the sign review committee's review and advisory recommendation of proposed sign shall be based on the following the
listing those um number two the sign handbook to be updated from time to time by the board of selectmen. So why why would they be the ones updating it? That's what I I That was one of the Before you get to that on number C3,
um I'm wondering who is the advisory recommendation to? Is it to the select board? Is it to the building commissioner? It says it's advisory. So the building commissioner is granting the permit, right?
So I do think that is a difference in here that we would want to correct. I don't think they're they make an advisory. And Cheyenne, you might want to add to this. They make the decision, I believe, or or are they making a recommendation to the building inspector?
So, it's kind of both like they all go around and approve it to someone and then the chair writes approval and they send it off to the building um to the building commissioner. I think they take Yeah. Yeah. Approval
and recommendation. Great. Okay. So, the guide book should be updated by the sign review committee at least as a recommendation. And maybe um it seems to me personally I think like
you know where these go on buildings and so forth is sort of tied to design guidelines like we have in our business districts. Not just sort of but is. So it seems like any update to this should be consistent with those design guidelines in Milton Village and
maybe that we should be well they can make the recommendation but we should review it. I I just think we should have a review on it because of the design guidelines, right? And we also want to make sure it's tied to the zoning, right? So, it needs to so because it
needs to be tied to the zoning, you know, maybe it's the the the sign review committee in conjunction with the planning board or advisory to the planning board. It's just again I'm not sure where the board of selectman role in here makes the most sense because they're not really reviewing. That's
what I findations for projects in these districts. Maybe the planning board and the sign review committee. Um cuz once and these all all these reference to the board of selectment should be changed to select board anyway. Yeah, I'm just reading from them but it really
should change. So considerations of how proposed signs related context of the facade of the building, buildings in the immediate vicinity to the sign, the basic pattern of the street front to which the sign is oriented, the sign brightness, style,
height and colors and other pertinent structures and elements in the med vicinity. It goes on to um to say a actually a lot of this is in our site plan review process too. Um reflect the character of the building to which is it
attached or associated with which is also sort of in the handbook displaying graphic symbols which are legible to both vehicle operators and pedestrians. So all of that um and the recommendation the sign review committee's advisory recommendation shall take one of the
following of forms. So, I think here we could add that it needs to somehow consider the um design guidelines when located within districts that have design guidelines because it might not
be in their handbook, but it's in our design guidelines. That's true. That's So, do we need this if we have design guidelines? Can we try to simplify the process? No, because there's so many signs that aren't in that are in places that don't have guidelines. Yeah, that's
why I think we say in or or just copy the language to make it consistent or say refer refer to. Yeah, I would say where it says here on page 11 cons that
the consideration of how the proposed sign relates to and the first or I mean we could put the first bullet point is design guidelines um for those signs located within
overlay districts for which there exists design guidelines or something like that. Mhm. Are we are we saying that in any district where there are design guidelines, the design guidelines if there are a conflict supersede?
I'm just saying that they should consider them here. I I I think we could leave it to the review of the sign review committee honestly, but um because there are only guidelines there. If you're an applicant and there's a
conflict which is which is the governing document. Yeah. I think I think this governs I think the sign review governs will be ours are suggestions. this will be but
it's this gives them the authority to consider that as part of their overall consideration because I think there's different things that they consider when looking at the signage you know challenges that a an owner store owner might have on what type of sign um so
Cheryl do you can you say that again or well I was just thinking so consideration of how the proposed sign relates to requirements or maybe it's not require requirements. It's um I'm trying to think of the right word,
but let me just use requirements for the moment. Requirements contain within design guidelines at locations for which they exist or something like that. I mean, it can be improved, but I'm trying to All right, let's think about that language
requirements. So it it needs to consider those design guidelines like principles instead of requirements. Do you remember how they're phrased in the design guidelines? Um I just say how it relates to the design
guidelines. Criteria or how it relates to criteria for design guidelines. Criteria. Okay. Criteria for design guidelines. within districts
provided. It's just this as an applicant. This is kind of um 22 pages, right? Yeah. And the book's actually helpful. I like it. It's a lot here for a It's a lot for just a regular person
like myself. Yeah. But this, if you look, if you read this Anything in our current zoning is even for professionals is difficult. Uh I stopped into the building department last week
to talk to them about um something and I said um you know we'd like to the board's talking about codification and they said how much they would support that. They I
said it's confusing and they said you don't need to tell us basically right and they get calls from architects all the time who are trying to who are used to reading these things you know zoning trying to design towards it and ours is to is so confusing that you know
professionals who deal with this every day are having to you know look for the interpretation of the local official that's who gets to make the decision but it should be better than that. So Meredith I think just put something in like we talked about we can think
about yeah fine-tuning of that language right okay all right so recommendations so this is just the process the the different um forms um the recommendation that this sign review committee will
make and then the appeal and special permits right of appeal any applicant um for a sign permit any person who has been ordered by the building commissioner to incur expense in connection and any person dissatisfied with any refusal order or decision of
the building inspector and this is what's happened I think what um this says may appeal to the board of selectmen so we're changing ZVA within Yep within 20 days from the date of which refusal order a decision after
notice given to the public and abuing property owners and or residents the ZBA I think it should should hold a public hearing ing applying the standards in subsection 6D, the board shall affirm, enull or modify such refusal. Da da the
action of the building commissioner may be enulled or modified only by a maturity of decision of the and I would put in ZBA board again. um the action of the commissioner is modified or an old if if the action is
an old the building commissioner shall issue sign permit in order in accordance with the decision of the board. So um so then again the next one the special permit granting authority should I change I put the ZVA yeah
shall serve as the special permit granting authority for all special permits and signs and shall consider request for special permits in accordance with the section in section D okay circumstances in which a special permit may be sought
um special permits may be considered ed um and issued for any request for relief of the requirements of this section. However, special permits may not be issued to allow those signs indicated in section A. And those are the
those prohibited the prohibited signs. Um I would change again any permit ZBA all the select board ZBA language here. Um and I didn't have and then under required findings I just changed that
language also to ZBA someone found where their grant required by it I guess. So there is a design review um size shape um design review prior to granting of a special permit by the ZBA.
The sign it would be signed ZBA. The sign review committee shall submit an advisory recommendation on the special permit to the board and that would be to the ZBA. Such recommendations shall address compliance of the sign with subsection
6E. An unfavorable report of the sign review committee shall indicate which of the findings were not met and shall state what modifications to the sign or signs could be made to render a favorable report. Failure of the sign review committee to make such a report
within 30 days from the date of the submission of the application materials to the sign review committee shall be deemed by the ZBA to constitute a favorable report. Okay. So now um this is the exempt signs.
So these seemed pretty straightforward. Um except for on the language um on under eight that would be signs located on property owned by the town.
Um oh I guess that should stay the the board of selectment the select board probably. But we should all of these change to select board. and great um signs sanctioned by the town
um of Milton Historical Commission which display historic information about the building's property not exceeding those are just the historic plaques um those are um the historical commission doesn't have any jurisdiction over any we don't
have local historic districts. So, um the commission does not have any say on those. So, these are all the exempt. Then you get down to the prohibited signs. Um just under 10 there. Um
signs within the town's right of way should be the select board also. So, they have board of selectment in here, but I think that should stay select board, right? And what number was that? I'm sorry. On 10 on page Oh, yeah. Yep. 15. Yeah. But that should be select board and and right below it, too.
Mhm. So, select board. Okay. All right. So, one. So, two. I wasn't sure what Tim meant by this. Um, any new or existing sign not erected pursuant to
and in accordance with the requirements of this bylaw. Period. Any new existing? Um, are you in the prohibitive? Under prohibitive saying you can't erect the sign on your own. That's what I read
that. Okay. And then it says see um blank for guidance on non-conforming signs. So that would be section goes back to where he he had something in here for non-conforming signs, right?
But we'll have to look at that section. Okay. So, it seems to me they're prohibited as new signs, but there are the ones that were predating this bylaw, right? Mhm.
So, it would be section of four 1 2 3 and four. Is that the 4 A for just existing or 4 A? I'm sorry. Yeah. C 4 A. Okay. um signs which incorporate any manner flashing, moving or
intermittent intermittent lighting excluding public service signs showing excluding public service signs showing time and temperature. These uh include promotional beacons, laser lights or images. Um wind signs including banners,
pennants, spinners, streamers and other wind actuated components. mechanically activated signs other than rotating barber poles, which I don't think we have any more of those sadly. I know. I love them. I know.
Um, any sign which advertises or calls attention to any products, businesses, or activities which are no longer sold. That's just a typo there. Which are not longer sold. Yes, that's what I was like with that. um no longer sold or carried on at any
particular premises. Um particular it should be premise not premises if it's particular right at any particular premise. Yeah.
No s um no such sign shall remain in place or vacated or vacated premises for more than um or maybe it is premises. I have to double check that now I'm questioning myself.
Um vacated premises for more than 90 days from the date of the vacancy commenced. um portable signs except for sidewalks. Sidewalk signs as defined in section um to look at that where that was of
this bylaw not permanently affixed, anchored or secured to the ground or structure on the lot it occupies. um signs advertising businesses, services or activities located at different premises from at different
premises from the premises on which the sign is located except street banners permitted by the board of selectmen which would be approved. That is that type of banner you I'm thinking of um
all the uh veterans banners that are up right now. So I think that is a select board. So that should just be changed to select board. Um as defined in section 8A window signs
which cover more than 25% of the window or which obstruct the middle third of the window or door such that eyele view through the window is blocked. Uh signs erected so as to obstruct any door, window or fire escape on a building.
Signs constructed, erected, or maintained on the roof of a building or which extend above the roof plate line. Signs in the rightway other than those belonging to a government, public service agency, or railroad. Signs which
are pasted, attached, mounted, or located on a tree, utility pole, fence, or structures such as an overpass, ad bridges, or other similar structure. Signs posted or attached to other signs are prohibited unless such sub
subsidiary portions are an integral part of the total uh sign design. Signs not in good repair, in violation codes or containing or exhibiting broken panels, visible rust, visible rot, damage, support structures, or missing
letters. Um, this is where the height comes in. And Maggie, you were asking about this, the measurement of the sign area. Um, that's included in here. Measurement of sign height, ground signs, building signs,
um, location, structure, and design standards. So, this is what you were ground signs was. I don't know if this would be um, what you were referring to. Unless more restrictive setback is specified. Otherwise, in the section, all ground signs, whether permanent or temporary,
shall be set back at least 15 ft from the nearest property line, whether or not said line abuts a public or private streetway. Which one are you reading from? Sorry, I I'm on 10 now. On which page though? On 17.
So, um, where's the square footage calculation? It says the measurement. So that's actually Yeah, there is coming a um Okay, it comes a little bit later. Can we put it here? Yes. So that
so we don't have to be flipping back and forth. That's my pet peeve on these documents. I just would like Well, that's one thing because he has Tim did illum prohibited illumination in an illumination section, but it's not in the prohibited section. So that should
be moved. Um All right. Well, let's just keep going, I guess. Yeah. And then we'll Yeah, because I think there will be some things to u move. Um, so measurement, sign area, structure, generally structure, ground signs, setback, um,
corner clearance, right away. Um, so the Sorry, I'm back on the set back on the ground signs. Um, 15 ft. Is that what we've approved? Or in are some of our memory care and daycare
facilities, have they been 15 ft back? I never paid attention to it to be honest with you. Just like just thinking like we should think we should look at it just to see if that's the right we should number or they're going to be looking variances or appeals. Yeah, because there could be
things like I'm thinking about when the the hospice was installed. That's I don't think that's 15. Maybe it is, but I don't know if that's 15t. It's 15 maybe roughly. Um memory clinic couldn't go back any
further because of the wetlands. I think that was right on the curb cut almost. I think we should take a look at what those couple that we've approved that haven't filed for their signage yet. probably and if this would impact them anymore. Mhm.
Um yeah, good. Corner clearance right away. No sign or part thereof. Um way compliance with building code maintenance installation.
Well, the installation none painted or posted directly on the exterior wall. Um, you know, there's historically they signs were painted on to the sides of walls and you still see them as a
historic feature in some buildings. So, um I guess I I I wonder if that's a good requirement. Well, I I think where we see them in our business districts,
like if you think about Abbeby Park has the mural inside that's painted directly onto the I don't know if that's considered a sign or or art or something else, but if what if they wanted to put Abby Park as a there on that as part of that there there is a certain style of the
Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, it makes sense. some of the old mill buildings, and whether that would make sense in Milton Village, for example? Um, actually, was two Elliot going to put a mural behind where the parking was?
Mhm. Wasn't that part of his rendering? Yeah, which is which I'm okay with, but to your point, is that a considered a sign, though? I don't know. That's more of a I would say like artwork and I think of Abbeby Park as being
artwork, but you're right. Like what if they wanted to paint Abbeby Park on like in a certain style? It would be a shame to send the message that we don't want that. Yeah, I don't think that would be considered a sign though. Okay. Well, it I think it'd be worth going
back and look what you like you suggested, Jim, at what was proposed for two Elliot because I can see like the web mill building when if they did the brew pub that they're talking about doing something on the side of one of those buildings and having it be considered signage.
Um, and it would be appropriate there. Yeah. Especially if it's not facing the street. What does it matter? It just says on any wall, but if it's a wall on
a alleyway, right? What would be the I mean, they're um in many uh historic brick buildings, you'll find old faded ones. Mhm. They're the coolest.
So, maybe we take out that first line and just have all signs must be painted, posted, or otherwise securely attached. Yeah, but then you're all signs must repeat to an intermediary. So, removable
surface is what you're saying. I think you could say um sign I don't think you could take it out entirely without revising the second sentence, but what you could say is um
without express approval or something because you'd want it to be reviewed on for the circumstances. So you're calling attention to it may or may not be approved. I don't know if that's the right
language, but I like where you're going with it, though. Where signs say that because you could say signs may be painted um so sign shall be painted unless unless approved.
I said without express approval, which um without express approval? Yeah. by the sign review committee, right? Yeah. I I think I think what Tim was writing is to protect against,
you know, a rash of painted or applied signs, you know, cuz there are some locations where it is probably really attractive and nice to have, but there's more locations that you don't want that. Well, do you think this covers the
protection of it? I think I'm not sure. I just feel like we should definitely protect against that, you know. Yeah, I think I kind of think of as part of the overall design package, you know. So, it needs to be looked at in the context of what's being proposed. So like what's appropriate let's say for the two Elliot would be different than
what would be appropriate for let's just say the Masonic building for example um or for something on high street you know it's like I and would that painting have to go to the um historical society?
No. They could just paint on any old outside old building and ruin. We don't have a jurisdiction. Yeah, we wouldn't. It's not a local historic district, so we don't have
So, I don't think I've ever seen a mural, excuse me, on an old on anything other than an old brick brick building. I've never seen it on clapboards or shingle or anything, you know? It's like it's just fitting to something old like to Elliot. Yeah, we don't have that many buildings
that it would be fitting for. You know, we have some. There's a few. Yeah. Okay. I like the I like the Cheryl what Cheryl added to that. Um and I think what you could do is you can have their handbook be more explicit
about it like where it's appropriate, what type of application. Um cuz I just looked through it now. I don't see it addressed in there right now. Okay. Um, so 19 and we can just try to move through
this quickly because I don't want to keep us too late. We have a couple of other things and if we want to break at any time, tell me you um but the illumination permitted um externally illuminated signs. Signs may be externally illuminated by white steady
stationary light shielded and directed downward solely at the sign. Reverse lit signs. signs may be reverse lit, illuminated by white light only. And I'm trying to think of what that looks like, Cheryl. Do you what comes to
mind when you reverse lit would be something where it's like lit from the behind? So, let's just say like letters were cut out and you had like an white acrylic behind it and then there's light within it or a channel letter which has an acrylic and then the lights behind it. That's
the way I understand. Is that the hospice? hospice have that? I'm not sure. I'd have to go take a look. Yeah, I'd be c just love to see an example. Um then prohibited. The following types of illumination shall be
prohibited except as may be permitted by the issue of because it's all it's what it says earlier is a special permit um can be given except for the except for
what is prohibited. So maybe we need to take take out this prohibited section here and just I'd put them in put these in in a special permit category. Ex not not a prohibited but a special
permit. Right. Well, I think we want it I think I think we want these in this in the um prohibited section because then the special permit section refers to except for the prohibited.
So it means so you can't the special permit there's a list of things that they can't um give permits to. I mean to me like you don't give special permit. Nobody gets it. Nobody gets it. That's what I That's what we want. That's what we want
because that's what we're getting right now is and we don't have anything. Eternal illuminated signs though aren't in my mind aren't necessarily all bad for all circumstances. I think we need to look at what some of these are. So like I'll like Santandere,
we're starting to see them like and people the Santandere sign which East Milton Square residents really don't like. I guess I'd have to see what is so bad.
Um, why is a reverse lit sign? That's what I wanted. But an internally illuminated sign is not a lot of Well, well, if you look at a lot of this, what this whole thing is
is set up for like East Milton Square, but it's not like contemplating the kinds of signs that you see in other places like what about the gas stations? What about the um you know like the memory care? It's like if I look through
this guide book, there's nothing about ground mounted signs or something where you're having to mount it not on a building um face, but it does have this rock, but you know, I I think we it needs to think a little
bit more comprehensively about all the types of signs that there are, right? and not just the ones that are mounted to historic, you know, frame. So I think it what it happens is so
Welssley for example does not allow any illuminated signs. I was listening and it goes through their planning board and they had a gas station somebody was asking for a new sign and they did not even allow uplit light. They had to have
down lit lights but no illuminated signs. And it changes the look of a town when you start seeing internally illuminated signs all over. It just it's a it's a very different look when you drive through. And that's why you drive
through like Andover Center and you see the Santandere Bank with gooseeneck lighting and now Milton we have this huge big internally illuminated plastic sign and it's a different it's a difference of a look. Um and it's being sensitive I think to the historic
character of the town if we can not have those. What um what just has it was very controversial was one of the gas station signs um that that on the um on the Basset Street side of the um that
gas station did the pricing in the le the electronic um and it's on here and now the new g the gas station um on across the street um is now they have just requested did one and they've been
granted approval for and they're going to be going up. They're going to put a new sign up and they're putting these um it's the LED price signs. So, they're the really bright price signs and it's, you know, when one when one sign it's like, okay, is that so bad? It's when
you start seeing all of a sudden and once you you know are allowing them, you're going to have others and say, well, this is fine. This is, you know, I know because as business, as a business owner, you get a little annoyed cuz the sign review see that other people are allowed to do
things and there's no enforcement and it really is very annoying. So the sign the sign review committee is put in a difficult position where they've now been recently approving more internally with signs and I it's just it
changes the look of a of a business district um to do that. And so that's why internally illuminated open face channel letters, signs fabricated with letters, numbers, designs or images
consisting of an exposed or visible light source emitted from the face of a sign including but not limited to incandescent and fluorescent bulbs, LED price signs, LED and digital displays, and neon tubes. I think once we get public with this, we're going to need
some photographs of the kinds of signs we're talking about here. Um, and I think we should have those sooner rather than later. So, if people can get out and take a look at these things at if anybody can photograph them at night
because I think you're right. I think that's this is a whole class of sign and you know maybe some of them make more sense like a large sign on a gas station you don't want a certain type but on a different kind of building or even on
the ground mounted sign it might be okay to have the type I mean this is prohibiting a whole class of sign and I just think we want to make sure we understand what we're doing here and is it by height because no um so the one the gas stations they're
being are they asking for you know a 40 foot um well you'll see we will get to that there is a height limit on sign when we get in into the business uses because again maybe I'm dating myself but I love like an old gas station sign
lit up you know just like my favorite sign in the whole of Milton is the um Pepsi sign I love it when they lit it up light it up in the all and that's an illuminate. So if if it's an old school style like old Yeah.
then I like a vintage style and to your point cuz it is a historic um a historic railway village or Milton village. So if the sign is of a certain um vintage vintage then I think that should be
okay. Yeah. Perhaps like the Walter Baker chocolate you know that's iconic you know that's yeah that's right across the river. So, and that's mounted on top of the building, which we're not allowing in. Yeah, but that's indoor, too. It's a It's Yeah.
Oh, I mean, you look at the extra space storage sign, right? That's a pretty big That was That was the first internal that was the first one that when that one went and it's big and it's huge and that got approved. Yeah. So,
so I think we need to do a survey of samples of different contexts because you think if you you can't write it for one district only, you know, so we have to we have to think it we have to use examples. Yeah. And
you know, I have a um I have a uh a memory of a project some years ago that we built in Connecticut, and there was a there was a a signed bylaw that was preventing
uh my client from putting the sign up that they wanted. And and I'm not it's just something for consideration. Yeah. What the client did because we had the corner of the building was entire
glass, they hung a sign inside the building um which was not um considered signage. Do you know what I mean? Cuz you can that's what this just and bring it up not only because we
want to be careful that we don't we don't allow a loophole right for that to happen. the effect was just the same. Do you know what I mean? As if it was on the glass on the outside, but it was suspended on the inside and the um authority having jurisdiction had no
ability to uh say no. I don't know if this addresses it, but some bylaws have a primary sign that can be a certain size. You know how we looked at that uh Goddard school had their primary sign and then they wanted these other things. Yeah. Um, so you can make the primary
sign allowed to be, you know, one size and then you can maybe allow secondary signs to be another so that you can prioritize so that you don't get this situation where you get signs slapped on all the facades if it's um, you know, visible to the public.
Um, I think that's coming. That's coming too. Okay. But and we can you know so I I do think these def whatever this reverse lit if that's a definition needs to come somewhere and
the inter internally illuminated and I do think we should think about some of these with respect to size. Yep. Yeah. And I'll look through to see if Yeah. if they have this. Um okay. Um, so we'll just skim through
these. Then time. Unless a business established is open to the public, no sign shall be illuminated between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 6 a.m. And that's usually what is required by the sign review committee. Intensity exterior illumination of signs shall be
shaded, shielded, or directed that they shall not reflect or shine on or into a neighbor's premise neighboring premises or into any public street. The intensity of such light shall be deemed acceptable if it does not exceed a factor of three
above the ambient light intensity at any point on the ground when measured with an incident an incident light meter and the following procedure. So as an applicant, how would you know what that is? So typically
and does the town have a light meter? Well, if you're normally your sign fabricator can probably provide that information. The um the electrical inspector probably
has a light meter. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so then it goes into um, so that was business districts. Then it goes into the residential districts because we
were going to cross over this. A sign of not more than two square feet in an area displaying the street number, the name of the occupant, the property, and the historical references if any, without need for a permit under this bylaw. I was let um
a sign pertaining to the lease or sale of a lot or building without the need for a permit. Um under this bylaw provided that such signs do not exceed a total area of 9 square ft nor more than 1 and 1/2 ft in any dimension until at
such time as all lots, apartments, condominiums, or houses have been rented or sold. That's an obscure bylaw. So the All right. Sorry. Go ahead. I was I
think I jumped ahead. That's all right. That's one contractor sign not exceeding 12 ft or more in area otherwise provided maintained on the property while construction is in progress and containing information relevant to to
the project. Such sign shall not require a permit under this bylaw and shall be removed within three business days after completion of construction. Uh one sign identifying identifying each public entrance to a subdivision or multifamily development such as
apartments, condominiums or town houses of not more than nine square feet in in area not more than 3 and 1/2 ft in any any dimension. In addition, each family unit may carry a single sign of not more
than one square foot without without time limit. So, one thing I would say here is we've got child care facility, memory care facility, hospice, hospital, businesses, and we haven't covered them at all. And
they um we should Yeah. In the residential districts. Yes. Yeah. Right. I don't know what the zoning is for Milton Hospital, but Got it. H I didn't get where you were going, but now I get it. I'm sorry. I was like, I I
understand now. I I didn't Yeah. Uh I just didn't hear you. So sorry. Uh because we've we've had projects that we've reviewed where we've seen these signs, right? So, um and again, I don't know how big those signs were that we approved anymore, but
we we should look. square feet and 3 and 1/2 a feet in any direction are bigger than that. I can tell you that. Yeah, there there's definitely bigger than that on the memory care. How how would you categorize those?
I would just commercial uses because they are commercial uses in a residential. Yeah. Well, I think we've got the multif family already covered right with number four. So then I think number five which Tim
said that needs to be it's not just non-conforming business though I would call it commercial uses and res and non-conforming I mean you could take it a step further and say even protected uses
because like uh a house of worship is protected the daycarees are protected And they have science. This does well that's in here too. Tim covered everything. I was we'll get religious and educational nonprofit
institutions. All right. So that could be Yeah. Um so then the only thing maybe is it's the memory care is not protected. The hospice is not protected. The landscape. So then I guess the businesses and commercial uses is probably fine protected. And we would need to
determine what that would be. with those. I think a business should get to have the comparable to the business district. I agree. So there's that here.
We could cuz that's going to come next the business district and that's where the specific um detail signs the the measurements are included here. We can once we read through this see if there's anything that we think is not appropriate but
otherwise I think it should be the same. So commercial uses and non-conforming protected in residential zones are subject to business district
business district requirements. Okay. All right. So, business districts um and we're almost there. Um the total sign area unless otherwise um here and afterward provided the total area of all signs erected on a lot shall
not exceed 1 and 1/2 square ft in area for each horiz horizontal linear foot of the building face parallel to or substantially parallel to street line. However, if the primary facade is on a parking area, then said facade shall be
used to determine the amount of allowable signage. Um, principal signs. No more than two principal signs shall be allowed for each business establishment. A principal sign may be a fl may be a flat wall sign, a projecting sign, or a
freestanding sign. The total area of a flat wall flat all flat wall signs shall not exceed 50 square feet on any one wall of the business establishment. Flat wall signs shall not project more than 12 inches from the facade of the wall.
Subject to the approval of the building inspector inspector, a flat wall sign may be located anywhere on a wall of a building provided that it does not conceal any part of a window and that its length is not does not exceed 7/8 of the facade of the business
establishment. A projecting sign shall not extend beyond the curb line or more than 50 in exclusive of any supporting structure from the building. A projecting sign shall not be less than 10 ft from the
ground level at the base of the building over a vehicular way 10 ft over a sidewalk or a lesser distance so long as public safety is not endangered nor more than 20 feet from the ground level to the top of the sign. Allowable area of a
projecting sign will be computed as 1/2 square foot for each horizontal horizontal linear foot of the facade of the establishment on which it hangs. Such signs shall not exceed shall not extend above the building nor be more
than 12 ft in area. Um, so freestanding signs shall not exceed 50 square ft of an area when the est so 12 square ft is like 2 ft by 6 ft. That
would be like a tiny sign on the on a big building. So again, it's like Yeah. Which the sign more than sign. So, it's like a projecting sign out. But
I mean, I don't know if you think about like the you want signs on a building that are sort of proportionate to the scale of the building. So, like if you have a big massive brick building and you have this little sign on it, it's not going to look right. When you think of the towns that I think
of the projecting signs, which again, I'll use Andover Center, but they do have they're not huge, but they they're very charming. You know, it's adds charm to it. the way just the way they are applied to the building. I think it's in our design guidelines that we actually
do like those signs, but you don't want it to be a massive if it's if it's an extended sign. That would be I'm trying to picture a projected sign. I know it's like a blade sign that comes out
from the Look at it. Like the queue up in Marblehead like when you walk around the building and the sign goes this way. Sorry. Yes. Yeah. Gotcha. So, we should do a mockup of some example, you know, different different signs. So, my only concern when you put in
language that says um for the um non-conforming commercial uses shall be subject to the business requirements. What if the businesses
um aren't the interior of a business isn't seen from the street? Because I think Charlotte, you used something a word, a phrase that said visible to the public. If it's not, what happens if it's not
visible to the public? Then I meaning it's inside the inside the building. No, it's still outside the building, but there's enough space around the building and away from the street. So any passer buyers um on the streets can't actually
see your road outside signs. So this is my point about how some of this is is really thought of as like East Milton Square and not like all kinds of signs. So it's almost like some of these requirements should be
specified that way. So, four signs on buildings in, you know, the business districts because if you think about Granite to Granite A,
a sign that's 12 square feet is going to be like a little dot on that building versus where Fitness Unlimited is. And we're trying to apply the same dimensional standard for to that that
range of scales. And I was thinking even memory care. So yes, we should have it for a certain sign size along Highland Street, but within the the property of the memory
care, they may want to have some signs directing, you know, deliveries out back. and nobody from the public will be able to see it. It won't interfere with the public view. So would they have to
come and get permission for all their interior signs? We're directional signs. Sam covers directories in here. I remember looking for that. They're exempt. They're exempt. Okay. Yeah. If not viewed from the if they are not
viewed from the public. No, I think they're just exempt. I think the next page 21. Tim is everything in here. I'm telling you, he was very thorough. Yeah, I didn't read either. Um, he was very thorough. Well, when you get over to um then this
I know there's a typo in here, but I think he's thinking about in the business district. So, if you go to He's probably thinking about what you were thinking, Cheryl, go to 21. Okay. And um and now he's now he's talking about
freestanding signs, but um a freestanding sign shall not exceed 50 square ft of area when the establishment fronts on route two. So I don't know, maybe this came from some language in another town, right? But so for us it would be like Granite A
maybe. Yeah, I I'm I'm thinking that he was thinking of scale, you know, which is what Cheryl's talking about, or more than 25 square ft of area when the establishment funds on a street other than Route Two. So, exactly that that's this is where you were going with
That's where I was going. Yeah. Yeah. So, he's he was he was thinking of creating language that allowed scale to be used. So, I think you could apply that to We could think about whether that should
apply to these other signs as well, but I wouldn't I'd like to kind of think about scale. Yeah, I I think that's good. Yeah, it's just uh it's just finding the right
language to describe that so it's appropriate, you know. Yeah. All right. So, secondary signs. This discusses that if a business establishment consists of more than one
building or if a building has secondary frontage on a street or parking area, a secondary sign may be affixed to one wall of each building or to the second side. Secondary signs shall not exceed one square foot for each horizontal linear foot of secondary frontage on a
street or parking lot. in said area shall be limited to 50% of the area allowed for the primary sign. Directories where there are three or more businesses on a lot or or there are businesses without an entrance on the
street frontage. A directory may be permitted for the purpose of a traffic purpose of traffic direction and control. The size of the directory shall not exceed 9 ft 9 square feet plus 1 and 1/2 square ft per business
establishment. Such a directory shall be estab included in the calculation of a total permitted sign area for the lot. Awning retractable fabric fabric awnings projecting from the wall of a building for the purpose of shielding the doorway
or windows from the elements may include signage on the valance. Such signage shall not be included in the calculation of the total permitted sign area for the lot provided that no lettering or symbol is greater than 6 in in height. No
awning may extend within 2 ft of a curb line. Um temporary sale signs in a business district. Temporary signs, advertising specials, or promotions or sale of merchandise may be attached to or located only within the interior of a
window or door and shall not require a permit under this bylaw or considered in calculating the total permitted sign area for the lot. Such signs must be registered with the building commissioner prior to their installation. Each business shall be establishment shall be limited to
display such signs for a period not exceeding 30 days with no more than three uh such 30-day periods permitted calendar year. 30-day periods may be utilized consecutively. Um signs painted on windows in a
business district script describing a product or theme and not including the name of the business. Such signage shall not require a permit under this bylaw or be included in the calculation of the total permitted sign area for the lot provided that no lettering or symbol is
greater than 6 in in height. Um sidewalk signs one A-frame sandwich board per business premises shall be permitted including with the public right away sidewalk only. a little um in addition
to the other signs permitted under the section 8 under the section under signs under section 8. Such signs shall not require a permit under this bylaw subject to the following conditions. The sign shall only be displayed in the
front of in front of businesses adjacent to the buildings, not only along the curb. The sign shall be displayed only during the months of May through October. The sign shall not exceed 24 in in width and 40 in height. The sign shall not be made entirely of plastic,
nor shall it be primarily devoted to a single product. The sign shall advertise the businesses and and the good and ser goods goods and services available on the premise premises. Uh the sign shall not protrude on the
sidewalk in such a way as to obstruct pedestrian traffic or reduce the open sidewalk width to less than 4 ft. The sign shall be free of sharp corners, protrusions, and devices which could inadvertently cause injury. The sign must be constructed with a crossbar
brace for stability. The sign must have sufficient strength to stand by itself. Um, in response to specific safety concerns, the police department may prohibit sidewalk displays in designated areas during holiday parades or other
specified times or days when sidewalk congestion is excessive. The sign may be displayed only during business hours and must be removed from the sidewalk thereafter. The building commissioner shall issue a sticker permit on an annual basis which shall be
attached to the interior of the sidewalk sign. Wait. So, is this saying that all A-frames need to actually get a permit? So, this sounds like something that they would leave out if it's left out for months um at a time.
Stick a permit. Mhm. I don't know. We I don't know if we do that. Do we if we do anything like that currently? We don't see many sidewalk signs here. I mean, occasionally I see Abby Park and Navara doing them.
I do. Yeah. I did one when I owned Bent and I put it down on rent. I never got permission for it. Did you leave it out? Was it out there? I put it in every night. I left left it out all day and then took it in every night. I left mine out all night. Yeah. Seasonally.
Why don't we ask about that? Why don't we find out if Cuz that might be something that we might not Yeah. 7-Eleven had does it. Do they? Yeah. Down um on Randolph A. So, let's put a question mark on that.
Was ones that um I I get upset about because there's inconsistency. Yeah, that's Let's find out. um light. Yeah, the reverse lit is actually on the definitions just if anybody wants to read it. Okay.
Yeah, we'll go. Um liability insurance shall be carried and evidence of some same maybe requested the building commissioner said insurance must cover personal injuries or property damage which may occur in such areas.
I don't know how folks feel about this. I think most businesses carry liability insurance. So, I don't know that we on signs. They want insurance on that's in case somebody trips over it or or this specifically to A-frame signs.
Yeah. If you're blocking the sidewalk and somebody falls into the street and gets hit by a car. That's That's where I think they're going with that. I guess we can just leave it in and see. I don't see a problem with that, Nasley. Most people would probably have that.
Um, so last page, religious and educational nonprofit institutions. Um, one side sign including bulletin or announcement board, identification sign or entrance marker is allowed for the principal entrance to the premises of a church, synagogue, or other religious
institutions or school, museum, library, or other not for-profit organizations not exceeding 12 ft 12 square ft in an area. One additional sign not exceeding 12 square feet in an area is also allowed if the establishment has
frontage on a second public way. Um up to nine additional squaret of signage is also allowed to provide information to the users on the site provided that no single sign exceeds three square ft.
Um, restaurants in addition to other sign permits prohibit permitted by this bylaw, restaurants and other food service establishment may post an actual menu on the building where the premises are located near the main entrance of the door of the
establishment without obtaining a permit under this bylaw. Um, I crossed off bed and breakfast cuz we don't currently allow them. I think um he probably just put it in as a placeholder if we did. Um gasoline service stations one
identification sign not to exceed this is you were talking about height Maggie not to exceed 12 square ft in an area. Oh, this is not sorry. That's the size. Product identifications signs for gasoline services stations may
be maintained provided the total of said signs does not exceed 9 square ft in area with no single sign to exceed 3 square ft in area. And then directional state traffic safety signs indicated entrance, exit,
parking or similar traffic directional information shall not exceed three square ft in area per sign provided these signs are erected on the lot pursuant to a town or state regulation. They shall not be counted in the maximum
sign number and sign area requirement for the lot. Signs indicated parking for specific businesses shall be limited to one sign per five spaces. So, one thing I would say is I didn't notice an explicit pro prohibition of
billboards, which that's the one thing that I might be implicit, but it's not explicit. That's a good point. Right. So, chapter 113. Well, that's what I was surprised cuz Tim said this will cover bill. Like when
he was sending it to me, he said, "We don't have a way of protecting us on billboards, but but it might be section 13." It might be implicit because you're not allowing a rooftop mount or a size of a billboard, but
Yeah. But would it hurt to just put a clause in? I just wouldn't I I think so, too. I think so, too. To be extremely explicit about it. Good catch. Yeah. So I would add would we want to proh put that under prohibited?
I don't think so. I think so. Just put a simple it's just I don't think it needs to be lengthy. And then that idea about this the height of a sign. Um so if we if we're thinking about the gas
stations again like I don't think any of the gas stations meet the requirements that are in here. If you think about how much signage there is. Yeah. So the question then becomes,
you know, how is this derived and does it reflect the kind of signage that's used in in gas stations today? I don't know how different it is from 10 years ago, but it does seem like you wouldn't want to put something in here that has no bearing on any gas station kind of
signage anywhere. And why would a gas station need a lit sign if we're saying it has to be shut off at a level? What do the when do the gas stations close at East Milton? And I don't think they shut off those
those pricing signs. Those are up. And well, I'm thinking the winter when it gets dark at 4. They need I mean all businesses would need signs. Yeah. It was 8:00 or 9:00. I don't think they're open past that.
So, should it be tied in with their hours of operation and not just a straight 11:00? I think it is. Doesn't say. No, it said 11. So, it just said 11. Are their hours unless they're unless they're open
later. like Abby Park or Novara could have their lights on later because they're open later. But maybe it did. Let's see. Because with the school on 138, didn't we say they had to shut their lights off at close of business
an hour after I think it was? Yeah. Was on a timer. Yeah. And that's what I think the um sign review committee has been doing is saying as of operation or your lights
should be turned off at that time. I don't know. Yeah, you're right. 11 to 6. Unless a business establishment is open to the public, no sign should be eliminated between the hours of 11 and 6. 11 to 6. Unless they're open later. Later.
It doesn't say that. Oh, I guess. Huh. What's What st What page are you on? Uh Oh, yeah. Right here. Unless Unless the business is true. If they're open at 12:00, they can have their sign up.
Yeah. Oh, what's the What's the Milton Gas? So if a gas station goes to sell, they go to 11. They do. Milton Fuel 11. Six. They open at 6.
So that's this time the reason is written like probably. Yeah. Um okay. Well, I think this is I think everyone can look this over on their own, you know, and think about things that the
billboards. Absolutely. We want to Can can this be sent to the um sign review committee for their feedback before our next meeting if possible? Yeah. Well, the Shell gas station says it's open 24 hours. So, that was my thing. If they're going
to selfs serve, I think they can stay open. I don't know if the town allows it, but but the state allows them to stay open 24 hours now because they're self-s serve and not no one has to pump your gas. So, could they keep their lights on all night? Well,
would that mean like the citizens kiosk down in Milton Village can have lights on all night? Cuz you can go drive up to the ATM. Actually, if I was a Citizens Bank customer, I would want a light there, right? You want a light? Yeah.
At least for safety. Yeah. Right. And are all these lights dark sky compliant? These um gas station lights? I don't think so. I don't think so.
So, that's a bit unfair, too. Everyone else has to be dark sky compliant, but they don't have to be. But that's why they would be grandfathered in, right? They grandfathered in. So, there's nothing we can do about it now, but going forward, we would be able to
not have LED pricing lights on those. If we can if we can do this in a way that's um that prohibits these under that section 8.
All right. So yeah, let's I'll send this over to John and cuz he's been through this from the beginning. It was actually I I had tried to get a design review committee established in Milton years ago when they when and John Zikowitz was
on the um it was the central lab revitalization comm group and we couldn't get that passed. So they but they did establish the assign review committee
um and I had said you know John would would you be the chair of it? So, he's been there from the very beginning to see all of these different things cuz this this booklet has also changed because there were things that came out of the booklet because they weren't in the bylaws. So, it was like they've not
been able to match up. So, the by the this used to prohibit neon sign the booklet used to prohibit neon signs, but it wasn't really it wasn't in our bylaws. So, and it was I think under Flynn he suggested not putting in our
bylaws. He made it like more guidelines that could be changed or altered without going to town meeting. I think was his goal that you could change and update things and then it got you know then people could appeal it and say it's not in the bylaws and the select board had to approve it. So,
right. That's what I understood too. I didn't realize he'd been there since day one though. Yeah. He was the first, you know, it's kind of common sense, I would think, that we don't want like with and he's always denied it. They always deny they've always denied the neon signs. But
yeah, but so I'll send this over um and take a look and we'll think about billboards and then we have one um just two last things on the agenda. the there is a new and Cheyenne if we haven't put
you to sleep with this going through this um do you want to talk about do what um the finance subcommittee um a little bit about that role and the the select board will be making appointments
and they have added the planning board as a as a representative position Yeah. Let me just pull up the the charge for you. Sorry. Now we can hear you. Yeah. Oh, can you hear me?
Yes, now we can hear you. Oh, okay. Cool. I was say I was going to pull up the charge. Oh, great. So that everybody could see it. Yeah. I only just heard about the committee like this morning or yesterday, so I don't
have too much insight knowledge, but um yeah, it's going to be like a subcommittee and I think there's going to be one planning board. Let me share my screen. Here we go. So, it's going to have um similar to other committees um kind of
like a large group of other people just to give their other insights. So, we're going to have two select board, two people from school committee, war committee, and then just one member of the planning board which we're going to use tonight. So, we can get that backwards and then I'll zoom in for you.
Thank you. My understanding from watching some of their meetings is that they uh wanted to do basically coordinated financial planning to understand what the
needs would be. um so that there's not a surprise sort of overbudget like I don't know exactly how you want to describe like this past year unexpected kind of expenditures beyond what budget was and
partly um also to think about like the revenue side and new growth as part of revenue and that's tied to land use and tied to zoning which is my understanding why planning boards included in it.
Great. So, I know Jim is on the capital committee. Um, we talking about You were going to assign him something when he was Yeah, I was going to We were going to assign you to this subcommittee. I get it. So, we were just talking about um we
were just sort of going over this subcommittee. Yeah. So, is there any interest? I know everybody's busy with other lives and serving on different committees. Um, does anyone have interest in being on this or not or has interest in not being
on this committee? I have interest in not unless nobody else wants to do it then I will do it to be perfectly honest. But I mean it sounds interesting. I'm not that great with numbers but I could figure it out. And you're on the capital committee.
I am. So that's good. So yeah, um you're I I definitely have interest in this, but this isn't the time for me to get myself involved in something else. Right now, I'm struggling trying to meet all of my life
Yeah. expectations, right? If it was a different time and circumstances were different, I'd volunteer because I do have an interest in the financial I know aspects of the town, but not the right time for me. I'm sorry for
that. So, I know I'm on the um the climate action. So, that's the only not the only but the only um committee I'm on and I'm not sure what the
um lifespan of that is, right? Because it's the climate action planning committee and you know the um they've done a great job. Um, unfortunately they've met many times when we meet. So
I've missed a couple like tonight. Um, so um I guess the question I have would be are what how often are they meeting?
What time are they meeting? Because um is there flexibility in days? And I don't know if they've gotten that far and maybe they have to, you know, meet and to figure all that out, right? Um I think it's once a month, isn't it? I think the charge is once a month.
That's what I read. Yeah. So once a once a month isn't overly um uh it doesn't have a lot of commitment hours there, I don't think. But but sometimes you know how committees go
then they start meeting more than once a month and or they meet at like 6:00 like the climate action committee meets at 6:00 and and that's a challenge um sometimes for me to get to at 6:00. Um so those
are just my questions and and I don't um you know I'm around town obviously every day. I don't travel too far outside of town, so I'm interested in it. I'm just a little bit nervous about um overextending myself
if um depending on I wonder if we could have Yeah, sorry. Say I'm not interested in it right now. It's not wouldn't um be a something where I feel like I want to take on one more committee, although
Town Farm is wrapped up um which Cheryl and I both served on. So, um but I'm wondering if it if it has to be just one representative. I guess it probably should or if we could have like two people and you know if you were interested also and we had somebody to
attend to report back to the planning you know the planning board what development projects we're working on maybe or you know to and bring feedback back to our committee but and that's the question is how much extra work is it is it just because and you're on a lot of committees
too sitting around talking about things or do I actually have to go when how much work do you actually have to do outside of the committee? Are you just reviewing? Um, and I know it's a new one and so they probably don't even know
yet. Um I think you know uh some of this discussion came about as I said before about you a lot of residents had concerns or questions about how budgets came together and how there could be
surprises and so forth. And then I know some of the the new select board members were and maybe old ones too are interested in more forecasting and that requires all you know um participation from town side from school side etc. And
then um you know some have said that you know we really need to look at our commercial tax revenue right and so um I think that's where the previously the there had been a committee that was select board and
school committee and town staff and so I think this new constitution sort of bringing in a few others is kind of to address that lar sort of larger bigger picture. So in terms of the effort, I think it's probably kind of big picture discussion
um like if someone said well can we can we begin to think about new revenue like more commercial revenue you know then you have to start talking about well can we get more out of the existing business districts than we're getting now you know what kind of revenue are we getting
there how feasible is it to to get business revenue you like people I know. What's the demand for office? What's the demand for medical office, etc., right? Because it's been challenging to get commercial. I mean, it took the Henry
site a long time and they ended up with a nail salon, you know, and it was like everyone said anything but a nail salon. That's I mean, it's tough running a brick and mortar. I mean, I know all the challenges, you know, I know them all and residential. I mean that's that's that's been very
you know that's the average household mine included you know you get five six boxes a day from Amazon or from wherever. I mean it's really challenging to to it's
easier to run a service um business than actually a retail uh business. Um, and so I when people start talking about, oh, why don't we have this type of business or that type of business, well, you need to find an owner who actually
wants to take on operating a retail business because it is so challenging. And um, even if you look at the Chamber of Commerce, the makeup of the Chamber of Commerce, there are very few um, uh, retail brickandmortar
um, business owners. There's a lot of realtors. It's all service service. Um you have um you know mortgage providers all part of the chamber. Um so that's what I I'm interested in trying to um
have a more robust um retail um town. And there used to be when people say, "Oh, Milton never allowed or never allowed commercial." When I was growing up, we had a lot more commercial and and so I I do take a little bit of
offense to that that oh Milton is so close-minded, but we had all of our little neighborhood stores and little pharmacies, all of our little corners. Um and it's been sad to go, but that wasn't Milton wasn't um that wasn't
Milton's fault. That was the change of um people not wanting to run their own brick and mortar. It's it's it's a lot. It's a it's a lot. Um so I'd like to see the resurrection um of more neighborhood
um small um um businesses, but then you run into neighbor problems. Um and the taxes for as a commercial business
is great. Um, and you have to be able to work a lot of hours sometimes outside of our business hours if you have a bit of an unconventional um um business. So, so you would be interested.
Yeah. So, I would be interested, but I also don't want to like be disappointment either. Well um you know the the master plan implementation committee is set to sunset in October
after 10 years. Yeah. And um there will be a recommendation to u update the master plan that comes from that. Um and that's been a huge time commitment for you. You've committed a lot of time. Yeah. Because I've chaired it. It's you
know as you know from chairing you um it it does take um time to make sure that every prepared for all the meetings etc. Um and I'm our representative to the you know community preservation committee.
Um I have an interest in it. I do have um a tendency to overcommit. So I am worried about overcommitting as well. Um, so you know, Maggie, if you want to give it a start, I don't know. Um, and
if you find like that the hours or the that aren't convenient or if you feel like there's other kind it's not the kind of input that you thought it's going to be, you know, maybe we could revisit it. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that because it is so new, we don't really
quite know, but at least we would have somebody there at the start. And that's what I thought at the beginning when I heard the selectant talking about this. I thought it was more about um you know the school budget is the biggest budget of the um of the town
and for whatever reason their their finance subcommittees were not meeting. And so at first I didn't really understand um the need. I'm not one to be adding more committees to the town.
I'd rather see maybe the merging of committees and um it we have town staff. I I believe our town administrator, he should be doing a five-year forecasting plan and um and then
bringing it to the selectman to review it. So I I kind of thought that that was his job description. So I would think Maggie you you you keep it to what the planning board can contribute to the discussion and to me it's sort of it's
the land use things and you as a a business owner have a different perspective about that but you know if you you could ask the assessing department or finance uh office to provide what's the tax
revenue generated from Milton Village from extra space storage um East Milton Square, Milton Marketplace and say, "Okay, you know, we know it's a small percentage." Um when we did the overlay in Milton Village, we said if that at
full buildout, uh we had MAPC do the buildout analysis at full buildout in 2019, it would be half a million dollars in new revenue. Uh so whatever that would be today we we know from 440 grand a
they were projecting I think 250,000 a year the same thing memory care I think they were projecting that amount so you could be you could just say like for example a 440 granted a would bring in X right a memory care would bring in X
what kind of revenue are we trying to hit with new development and what does that look like on the the kind of convers that a way the planning board can contribute to that conversation. Yeah. Not schools,
not town side budgeting, but on the revenue side, on the new growth side. To me, it is interesting when you talk about new growth, and I've spoken to the assessor about it. They're always focused on new growth and I said, "Yeah,
new growth is for that first year, but then they never look at the expense side of it." So, um, they never forecast the expense of the new growth. And, and to me, that's always interesting. And he's like, "Yeah, we don't look at that. We
just are always looking for new growth." Well, if you think about the building department, new growth includes when you add do an addition on your house or you renovate your house and the assessed value goes up, the tax revenue goes up, right? And there's a lot of that in in in Milton, right? There's a lot of
I'm sure Jim, you've seen it where a lot of small homes get being added on to a lot right now are happening. People um and what will ADU bring in for revenue? I think that's um a good question. What will MBTA communities, you know, like
the economic analysis, can there be a new economic analysis done? Those are the things I think that um the planning board rep can bring to the discussion. Yeah. Good. All right. So, is there a
nomination to appoint Maggie to the finance subcommittee? I'll nominate Maggie to be the planning board's representative to the finance committee. I'll second the nomination. All in favor? Wait, did she accept it? Oh, yes, you accept it.
Yes, except conditionally. Yeah. And I'll second it. Don't be afraid to drive the time meeting. Just tell them, "Look, I want to meet in the mornings if you possibly can. Capital meets at 7:30 by Zoom." Yeah. No one has a problem with that. Yeah. And also my, you know, if you want my feedback or input, sometimes I'm happy
to either participate or have a call with you about it. That's Thanks. All right. All in favor? Hi. Hi. Hi. Okay, great. And then just there's one just last thing on our agenda. Um and I don't want to spend too um too
much time, but um Diane did come, you know, and has been quite concerned that that um the zoning articles, you know, were not properly um disposed of. And I have not talked to Nick, you know, to see what I know she sent the select
board a letter. she came to us because she didn't hear back from the select board. So, I think it makes sense to talk to um to Nick and and find out um if there's anything that's going to be happening on, you know, with the state
or any issues that the state has with the with the articles um or the process. And I think he's probably had a conversation with Sue Galvin um and um and probably town council. I mean, I
sympathize with Diane um and all um residents for for that matter that if they ask questions and they don't get responses and you have to kind of bounce around trying to find somebody who will provide
the answer for you. So, I I do sympathize, but I also understand that people are really busy, too, and sometimes there can be a delay in in getting a response. Um, but I do think
she has brought up some valid points, not just on this particular issue, but that's why I know we're here. But it's just seems um to me I've been frustrated not being able to get answers to questions or, you
know, saying, "Oh, if you know, you want those questions, you have to pay $13,000 to get the answers." So, I'm sympathetic um to her. So, I don't know if we if we can ask just like town council to give
us an answer, give us a written answer um to to her questions. Um just so we have done our duty with the resident has asked us for answers and some of the answers we just I'm not comfortable
answering. Um I mean I did watch part of the um towel meeting again this afternoon and she is right that um um the moderator or new moderator said I will step aside
and collect my things as um the temporary moderator gets sworn in. End quote. But I didn't see him and I don't recall him actually getting sworn in. Um, and so to her point, do you normally
get sworn in for a position before you get elected? So maybe there's a very like reasonable response. Yeah. Legally and maybe just town council needs to provide that to us so then we
can say we listened and responded. Any other thoughts? I um I understand also about people not knowing in some cases where to go with an issue that they have and would like to get an answer on. But this
clearly doesn't fall in our um jurisdiction. Um that's what I that was my comment. It falls under the clerk or the moderator or the select. You don't have the authority. We have no authority and I I really don't feel like we can put
ourselves in the position of stepping in where we don't have authority because someone's not getting an answer from someone else. I I think it's important for us to to stay in our lane. And um I wish she had gone to the select board with it and made the statement and I I
sort of thought after she sent us the email that she would be doing that. Um, so I don't know where that where that is, but well, I think she's here because, you know, one of the articles she's referring to was an article that came from the planning board, right? And she
I think it's obvious the reason she came here because our article was impacted by what she sees as a procedural violation. Right? So, she wants to know, how do you feel about that? That's your article. How do you feel about a procedural violation involved in your article? I think it's
logical that she came here. No, I you know, my opinion, since we're sharing opinions, I do agree the town should respond, you know, to the resident's concern and um there's a process that exists for a
reason. There's a procedure that exists for a reason. Did we violate the procedure? Are we in violation of process? And somebody should This isn't hard. This is all recorded. you know, this is this is I think I think the town should respond to the resident and say
either yes or no that there's a violation of procedure. That's not complicated. And if the resident has called to attention of the town um that a violation has occurred, I think the town's responsible for answering it no matter what the subject is. I don't
think it changes the vote at all, but but you have to put that aside. This is a question of not of the vote. It's a question of following process, following procedure, and did we follow it properly or did we not as a town? But still, it's not our jurisdiction.
I'm not saying it is. I'm I'm just offering my opinion. Why did she come here? Because it's an article that came from the planning board that was that was um affected, you know, by the procedural violation that she sees. So, um I'm not saying I'm telling anybody to
do anything. I'm just, you know, Diane, I give Diane credit. She puts her heart and her soul into the town. There probably aren't a lot of residents that commit as much time and as much energy as she does to the town. So, she deserves to be she deserves every
resident deserves u fair and equal consideration. She's brought something forth that's legitimate. Everybody that seems to, you know, have listened to her or heard her, no one's arguing that she has an illegitimate claim. The town should answer it.
And and back to process, I mean, I have a question about the process on citizens petitions because I've been through it. And when I went through it, I was told that I wasn't able um to
change or amend my citizens petition because I had so many signers on the citizens petition. So all those signers would have to agree to an amendment.
So this is just a general question. I don't need an answer now, but this is a question that maybe Peter Melo needs to respond to is, you know, when it's a citizen's petition, it's put forward by a hundred
people. Do all a hundred people have to agree to that amendment? So, I asked a question about and I don't know who gave you the guidance before, but I asked it on this because I was curious about that because I think you may have mentioned it before
and what I was told was once it's put forward then it can be amended like any other article once it's there. Um, so just like we can put somebody any town meeting member can make an amendment to
a planning board article or anybody's uh sp sub submitted article. So that's what I was told by uh town council. Yeah. But in that case we'd have as the planning board we would have to agree to the amendment. Right. But town if not if we said no we're not going to accept it as a friendly amendment. Town meeting could still vote
for it anyway. So they could amend something that we've submitted. Oh really? Yeah. the town meeting can do that. Yeah. And Yeah. And and so then that's all the town council has to do. Yeah. I mean, I I was having a different
question and I said, "By the way, now that I've got you on the phone, can I ask you about something else?" But I I want to take advantage of having him, but um so he so he can easily do that, you know, he can easily respond to that
question in writing. So should we ask him to is that where you're going? Well, to everyone's point, it it out of our jurisiction. It's out out of our jurisdiction except for it is zoning. Um,
I think it would be better if another board or another staff member responds to her out of respect. But if she doesn't get an answer,
then I think we should respond. But I don't know how much time. Yeah, let's we should wait for that. Well, I don't know exactly who she's reached out to other than she said that she in what she sent to us that she had reached out to the select board.
I thought she reached out to the state in her email, but whether she's reached out to the town the clerk, the moderator, um the town council, I mean I the town administrator, chair of the select
board. I don't know. But those all seem like more relative more ones who have jurisdiction than than we do. Yeah, we we certainly don't have jurisdiction. It's not like we could call Peter Melo and say we want a
written opinion from you, Peter Melo. cut as a board and since the resident came before us, I think it's fair to say that we could recommend that the resident get an answer from the town administrator, you know, as to her question. And
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that, right? She came before us. It was on our agenda. There's nothing wrong with us saying that we recommend that the town administrator answer the question that the resident has asked. Again, I I I don't see us taking a a position
like that and making that kind of being a conduit for something that's out of our jurisdiction. I don't think I I'll talk to Nick and just see if I can Yeah, that's what I was gather more information. Suggest is maybe Meredith could maybe there's a process that they are doing that and taking some steps that we
just don't know about. So, I don't I don't want to assume anything. So, but I do appreciate um her coming and and trying to keep us accountable for what our what's in our bylaws. So, I think it's important. So, with that, that is the end of our um
meeting. So, I would unless there's anything else, entertain a motion to sign this. We will sign that before we leave. Um but I would entertain a motion to adjurnn. So, moved. Is there a second? All in favor? I
Good night all. Thank you. And I go