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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=Ras8gv2ZLto
Video-2: youtube.com/watch?v=ghvM0bi1eZc

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--------- Um I will call the um hearing into uh into session on the application number 2908 uh for sign um at special permit and a variance for signage at 675 Blue Hill

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Avenue, um the Gardener School. And tonight on the panel, we have myself as chair, Kathleen O'Donnell, and gentlemen, want to introduce yourselves, >> uh Michael Brown, >> Chris Harper. >> Excellent. Um and we have our clerk,

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Bill Donley. And so we have um on the joining us today we have um Heather um Duko from the sign company and Chris Bezendon from the gardener school. Isn't that right about that? Um so just to briefly point out we have

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a qu request for a special permit under our new sign bylaw because we have a new sign that's in that accessory to a um nonresidential use in a residential neighborhood. So, we have this new gardener school um which has been

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approved by this by the planning board with site plan approval. Um but they unfortunately under our bylaw they need to have a special permit for the signs and they also need a variance. Um they've asked for a variance for the setback on the so-called monument sign which is the sign sort of on the highway

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on Bluehill um Avenue that would introduce you to the to the school site. And that um is proposed to be 6.2 2 ft instead of 15 ft from the side of the um the roadway. As um part of the file, we

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have the application that was filed on um May 21st, 2026. And we have um also attached to that we have the site plan approval that was done by the planning board dated March 31st of 2025.

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Um we have the site development plan dated um August 28 of 2024. We have um staff findings done by the um by our planning staff. We have a um objections comment letters

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from an abuter name or a neighbor named Tim Kieran. Um, in addition to that, we have the letter from the um to the board from the signed review committee dated June 5th, 2026.

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And um we have a response from Chris, I believe, to the comments staff comments made by the um by the staff comments made by our planning uh department that were dated uh June 16th, 2026. And I

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believe that that's the contents of our materials for this application. Um, let me anybody know if I've missed anything, but I think that's it. And so, um, who would like to speak first?

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>> I'll start. >> Okay. >> Okay. For the record, my name is Heather Dudco, 27 Old Meeting House Road in Auburn, Mass. I'm a sign permit consultant that works with National Sign, who's the sign installer for the school.

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>> Um, and we are before the board tonight, as as um the chair pointed out, for a special permit for the use for the signs because it's a business use in a residential area and then a variance for the setback of the sign. So, I could just kind of generally go through the

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signed proposal um right description um that was presented to sign review and recommended for approval. Um it's simply a wall sign at on the front elevation, a logo and lettering, the Gardener School.

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They're painted letters, non-illuminated. The Gardener School lettering is approximately 29.67 67 square foot with a 16 in letter height and the logo is about 7 square foot

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32 in um height. The diameter is about 7 square ft. >> Mhm. >> And then the monument sign is proposed as externally illuminated 76 in wide by 77 in tall.

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It does have the logo on it. Acrylic mount pin-mounted letters that read the gardener school and preschool serving ages 6 weeks to 5 years. It's proposed on a brick base and the brick matches um the components of

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the building. And we are asking for the setback to be 6.2 two foot um I believe and Chris can probably have a little more information on this um but there is some site topography that does not allow the sign to meet the 15t setback so that's why

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it's placed where it is >> okay >> and that's really the the the crux of the sign proposal it's a very simple we think simple clear concise um not overdone

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It's in keeping with the building um architecture and uh complements the building and the the um area. Great. Um did Chris or Michael do you have any questions for Heather on the

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sign itself? >> I I don't have any questions. I haven't seen a a photo of it, but I did pull up the um I know there are locations nearby. For example, one in Denim, and I assume the sign is going to look

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>> substantially similar to that sign. >> Yeah, that actually might be, for the record, Chris Stazz with the Gardener School. Uh Denim might be the exact match. Uh Denim is the other school that had the natural stone veneer uh in lie of the brick finish. So it should

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actually be identical to that. >> Thank you. >> Well, that's good to know. Actually, I drive by that every week to go to rehearsal. So, yeah, I've seen it. >> Can I I have a question. Um, in terms of the the the setback issue just because

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that that involves the the variance. >> Um, and you mentioned um the topography. What exactly is the topography issue? >> I think Chris can address that. >> Yeah. So the issue is actually uh topography, but it's driven by drainage.

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So um immediately to the plan left of the monument sign location is a large um covert. So there is a a sunken inlet and then a covert to allow water to pass underneath our access point. I believe it's sunken down three or four feet

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heavily rip wrap for erosion protection. Um, one of the items that was discussed in the site plan process with neighbors and planning board was issues and concerns with drainage. So, what we've done is is sort of oversized this system in hopes of improving

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um drainage both at our site and downstream. So, all the water coming our site looks like we lost them. >> Oh, okay. We lost him. Well, I'm sure he'll sign back on, but

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um but that's that's helpful for us to have, you know, establish the reasons for why you need the variance. Um >> yeah, if if you have the site plan, even the site line diagram, uh with the red dash line, uh there's a a rock hatch in

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a square box um indicating kind of that that drainage graded low area that um >> kind of forcing our hand on the on the dimension. Our preference, you know, that sighteline diagram was developed because our preference would be to set it back a little bit further. um parents

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exiting, leaving, we need to be assured that they can see, you know, out the driveway. So, >> we're doing the best we can to shift it as close to those rocks as we can, knowing that our parents are going to need to see out that driveway, hence the reason for the the sighteline diagram in the first place.

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>> Um Chris says he's having connection issues. So, I'm wondering um if I turn on my uh um and on your phone.

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>> Um it's trying >> look for him. H >> look for him to let him back in. >> Yeah. Well, that's unfortunate. Well, guess we'll take an informal break while

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we wait to see whether we can Chris back. >> I think I see someone. >> Is that you, Chris? >> He's muted. Can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Back on mute though.

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>> But you backed on mute. >> Okay. How about now? >> There you go. >> Great. Okay. Geez. All right. I'm really sorry about that, folks. Um, >> no. I'm I'm glad you called in because otherwise we don't have a quorum.

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>> Thank you for calling back. >> Yes. I was thinking of course saying >> um so Chris was filling us in on the reason for the the reason for the location which requires the variance. And did you hear that part?

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>> That's when I cut out. He was just answering my question. >> Yeah. So Chris, do you want to repeat that answer? >> Yeah, certainly. Um, so the the main driving factor is drainage. There's a a large depressed area um 3 4 feet depressed with an inlet at the bottom that that drains to a covert that's

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directing about 3 or 4 acres worth of runoff from kind of uh what would it be north kind of the high side of our site, right? We have a sixacre site where we've only developed a couple acres. So there's a lot of runoff coming from above us. Um in our planning process, neighbors had shown up with pictures of

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some poorly drained areas, some flooding during large events. Um so it was a focus to make sure that these things were adequately sized. And so we're just extra cautious with that area. Um and that rock is kind of uh pushing that sign a little closer to the ride of way. Um I had mentioned that that it's also

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our preference for that sign to be further back when it can be just for sighteline visibility which is why that sighteline diagram had been prepared in the first place just to confirm that we have we needed >> and I will point out that those materials that um that Chris has

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referenced the site line uh plan and everything is on the record at on it's available to anybody who cares on our website on the town website. So, if you go under the board of appeals, you see active appeals. All of the information that I listed in the beginning and the

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things that Chris just the plan that Chris just mentioned are on the website for everybody's um help. Um, any other questions with respect to that? I mean, I have questions just because

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I'm kind of um a lay person and unable to read the site plan maybe as well as you can, Chris, but I'm looking at it now and I see where the sign is. Um can you explain like what that I mean looks like pile of rocks to the left of the the sign. I assume that's what it is,

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but what what does it look like in like real life? >> Yeah. Um, uh, I was going to say I could pull up a picture, but I don't think we quite have that area complete yet today. Um, is it okay if I share my screen? >> Yeah, that'd be great.

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>> All right. Let's see here to show. Okay. So, you're seeing the PDF. >> Yes. >> Oh, okay. >> So, here's uh the sign is not shown on this plan. Um, but you can see here we have a large swale. That's what this area is here collecting water at the top

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of the retaining wall. They've got about 3 2 3 feet of depressed area where that water will collect. It'll drain through an inlet, run through this pipe and into a swale that then runs down the uh Blue Hill A adjacent to the rideway all the way through. And then that sign has

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landed somewhere, you know, in this rough vicinity. So, it's sort of a a gently sloped kind of detention pond area that you would see in in other projects and areas. >> And is it And just for the record, are

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you unable to put the sign in the drainage area or is it just aesthetically unpleasing or what's the what's the issue? >> Uh, it would just be it's it's this area is ripped wrapped with average diameter 6in rock. Uh it's a slope of of 15 to

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25%. Um just placing the signage there would would pose a challenge even in terms of foundations exposed you know facade and things like that. Much easier to place it on that 2 or 3% slope. >> Okay. Can I can I just follow up on that just

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because just because of the the and the reason I'm asking this is because of the um um the the way the statute is written on variances. When you say much easier I mean can can you describe is it would it be just much more expensive? Is it is it doable? Would it take a lot more time?

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Can you just describe those details a little bit more? >> Yeah, I guess I I >> I can make the case. I I don't want to say it's not doable because everything is doable, right? the it in order to do it, you'd be looking at significantly

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revising uh drainage plans that could trickle into to a number of revisions going all the way back to planning boarded site plan changes, right? There's uh guard there's guard rails, there's this drainage system, there's other storm landlets draining, you know, catching

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other portions of the site. Uh it's it's one of those where if I had to get the the sign where it needs to be, I may be may need to go somewhere else for a variance on a different element. >> It's just a tight area. You can see we actually had the monument sign in a different location previously and it

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just it's hard to find a spot where one we're we're 15t back which I think is the standard. we um now we're up to 6 ft and I I it just can't get us any any better than that 6T number really without driving us into to possible

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variances in other areas whether that's pipe depth whether that's cover over a pipe kind of the same thing. Um you know spacing from the ride of way uh those sorts of things. Um, on that note, I I don't think this is a first for you

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guys. Um, you know, and sort of doing some of my research, uh, looking over Tim's comments, trying to make sure that that we weren't going too far above and beyond in what we're asking for. Um, I did look at at Little Sprouts and their sign. I believe their sign is set 5 ft

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back. It's of a very similar size. Uh, the only difference would be theirs isn't illuminated from what I can tell. Um, just going down the road, there's a couple other monosures on Blue Hill AB that also appear to have signage that may not be 15 feet from the property line either. Um, so from a precedent

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standpoint, I don't think what we're asking for is is anything new. Um, and to your point, I I do think there's a hardship here where um getting to that 15t mark or even the 50% 7 1/2 ft uh isn't feasible in the areas where we

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could place something. What's the issue with putting it on the other side of the driveway? >> Same thing. You've got pipes, you've got slopes, uh we've got trees that have been protected. This doesn't show landscaping. Landscaping was a big topic

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of conversation with um planning board. I think we've got over 100 plantings or I want to say like 400 plantings, 100 trees and 300 shrubs that are getting planted for different things. You can see here we're already going to have to make some revisions in a couple of trees

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and shrubs, get them located elsewhere on the property just to make that sign fit in there. >> How how deep down does the sign sign go into the ground? >> Likely to frost. So, probably 36 to 48 in.

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>> And what's what is 36 to 48 in under the ground that would prohibit you from move either moving it or moving it across the driveway or whatever? in in in in the proposed location or in >> no in in the correct location.

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>> Uh it would it would simply be the storm the storm system would be the the easiest answer. That's the only belowrade feature other than poor soils. >> Yeah. I just I what I mean is like are there pipes under the ground? I mean, why why couldn't you like what is it

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about the underground that is preventing you from keeping it 15 ft back? >> It it's it's this pipe right here. If I were to draw you a dimension, I want to say that pipe is 12 to 15 feet back.

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>> But it could and look, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I want to kind of understand this. So, what about behind the pipe? like on on away from the road. >> Sure. You're saying set it at 25 feet back. >> Yeah. Or whatever that measurement is.

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>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Um at that point just becomes a visibility thing. Is it you know we >> Well, that at that point you sort of wonder why you would have a sign if it's too far back away from the road. >> That's exactly right. Right. We have a it's heavily lined with trees. There was

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a goal in doing so with with the site plan stages. Um what we had put on the initial plan again is is kind of a similar setback to what it was and that's partially because of the visibility that we couldn't you can't get from

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setting it 20 feet back even 18 feet back. The um and I'm sorry if I don't mean to interrupt anybody. I just can't see anybody. So you have to forgive me. Um the um the the letter from the um sign review committee said if I remember

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correctly that they had authority to allow for 50% of the distance. So I think 7 and 1/2 ft is what it was. Is is there a reason that that wouldn't have been sufficient? Would that run into the

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same problems? >> Yeah. So it it just pushes the foundation and the limit of the sign into a conflict with the storm underground storm and at

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grade storm structures and piping. >> Has there been any conversation about reducing the size of the sign or is does it have to be that size? >> Um there hasn't been conversation on it. we

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typically haven't needed to do it and haven't pursued that. It it's a marketing thing from that standpoint, right? It's a logo and branding thing. We like to to keep our our signage the same familiar. You're a growing brand. You want everyone to notice and and and recognize it,

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especially in the Boston, Massachusetts market where uh you know, we're opening schools for for the first time. Great. Um, as as Chris had pointed out um, for members of the public that the sign

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review committee does have the right to reduce that setback um, by 50% um, the 15 ft setback. Um, but this one the the request is 6.2. So that's why there's a variance request before this

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board of appeals. I would point out that the um sign review committee has approved this sign. Um um I think that the issues that are before us, I said the signage on the

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building itself, I mean those are not illuminated. The um the sign review committee was fine with those. The monument sign is a separate sort of category. And um um there there was I said there were issues um pointed out by

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um a neighbor about the illumination um whether the sign might be visible from his site. You know, was hoping to have the lighting contained. Um I would point out that the planning board's requirements are that these signs are um

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compliant with dark sky. Um and then so Heather, could you explain a little bit more about the illumination that's being provided on the monument sign? >> So there it's a two um on each side of the sign there'll be a it's like a

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gooseeneck. It's like a It's an LED flood lighting, but it's attached >> to the top of the sign and it directs down >> just to light on the sign face only. So, there's no um there's no spillage on the outside of the sign there. The flood

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lights are targeted right to the faces of the sign. Mhm. >> And go ahead. >> I saw something in the papers about I I don't know if it was the planning board that required that the sign and I don't know if do we have jurisdiction over the lighting the the timing of the lighting?

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Um but there was um did I read that there was a requirement that the lighting only the lights only be on an hour before business opens and an hour after business opens? >> Did I misread that? No, that's in the the there are two conditions in the site

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plan. Um number four which is on the lighting um which ex so which says exterior lighting is on 1 hour before opening and 1 hour after closing. Um but then there is a second condition on

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number nine on signage and and so the question gets to be sort of a you know hair spplitting situation about whether the ex the cl the language on exterior lighting refers to the sign the the lighting on signs as opposed to the

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lighting on the building or the lighting in the parking lot or the lighting to help people get in and out of the building. Um, and so and in a condition on the signage, they say it just has to comply with our sign bylaws and it doesn't have it doesn't mention anything

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about the timing on the signs. So, um, I think that Chris had responded to that comment with a memo, an email back to us, didn't you, Chris, on June 16th. >> Yeah. So

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to explain that a little bit, again, commercial daycare use in a residential neighborhood, residential zoning district, uh there was concerns about lighting. There always is. We typically would say we'll go we need 1 hour before for when it's dark in the

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mornings and we need 1 hour after when it's dark at night for teachers and staff and parents to leave. Um the question that came up was safety and security. They asked us if we could go to a motion sensor that would trigger at 30 or 50% um at all times just in case

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someone wanted to pull into our parking lot for whatever reason. Um so so that's what we were working on. Um in doing so we found it very difficult to get this motion sensor system to tie into the overall building system. A lot of inverters, a lot of different things to get lights to work on one timer but then

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a motion and 30% dimmable at another. Um, so the the discussion with the sign review committee was, I understand your guys's concern, but my ask would be, can we just set some hours of timing on on the monuments dying instead? It's just going to take out a complexity and a

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possible repair and maintenance nightmare going forward to try to get this monument sign to also follow a dimmable schedule. Now, there's then the aspect of, okay, well, why not just one hour after and 1 hour before it'll be lit up for those

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dark periods and that's it. And that's where my email came into play of like it's it's it's a wayfinding measure. It's it's a marketing measure as well. It identifies, hey, we're here, but it also says, hey, there's a drive lane approaching. Hey, traffic may be turning in and out. So, that's where I think some additional hours on the on the

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evening end would make sense. >> So, what time does the school normally close? We're open uh challenging me 7 am to 6 p.m. Monday through Friday. So the hours would be 6

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a.m. to 700 p.m. for for lighting. >> Obviously, sorry. >> No, you're fine. Go ahead. >> I apologize. Um I is that the the wayfinding issue is um I appreciate the marketing for uh point of it but the

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wayfinding issue is that is that a safety issue >> also >> that's the approach and the reason for me mentioning it is is you know I had I had said marketing in the past and and you know uh Tim who who I've met we've

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had conversations about this project in the past had brought up that's not a strong enough argument and I I wanted to share other reasons why we light our signage, especially on a road like this. Um, and I do I do think that there's an aspect of of illuminating this sign that helps warn people of a a commercial

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access, you know, they're approaching one. >> But but we're talking about after hours, right? I mean, nobody's going to be there shouldn't be a safety issue an hour after the business closes, right?

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>> Uh, not on a regular basis. >> Yeah. >> What I mean is it's not it's no longer a commercial it's no longer a commercial operation after a certain hour of the day, right? Again, not on a on a regular basis. That's not

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to say that we don't take a late trash pickup or an early trash pickup or a delivery uh for kitchens or um oftentimes an open house when we're first opening on a Saturday, something like that, >> right? Those are special circumstances,

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but yeah, >> but there there it's it's still it's still doing it's still acting that way. Yeah, I didn't see a recommendation at all from the sign review committee on the timing. I mean, other than it says that the applicant wishes to keep the

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monument sign illuminated from 6 to 10, but they don't they didn't say whether they thought that was a good idea or a bad idea. Um, >> yeah, I I I was I mean, I don't know if this is a now conversation, but I but um

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I wasn't even sure to what extent we were this was this was a decision before us or if this is already Maybe this goes back to the exterior lighting point you were making, Kathleen. >> Um I'm also it's this also isn't really a variance issue, right? the lighting.

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It's a >> No, I think that's that's a special per that's a special permit >> for lighting in a you know for signage in a in a on a non-residential use in a residential district. Um so um and I think in that situation I

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mean we're certainly look we're relying heavily on the recommendations of the sign review committee. Um and so um as I said they they point out that information had come in after they had

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their hearing to say oh well there's a provision in the site plan approval that restricts the lights to no more than 1 hour prior and 1 hour after. Um, but as I said, I I think my reading of it does that applies to the exterior lighting,

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not necessarily the the monument sign, but um I'm also sensitive to the fact that um you know, people have pointed out that other signs on Blue Hill Avenue do not have u

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illuminated signs after dark and certainly not as late as 10:00. Um, so as so I I you know I think that you know we would approve if we decide to approve it we would be giving the special permit for the signs and then we

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would probably throw in or not some discussion about the timing on the lights but that's you know as I said that's separate from the variance on the on the distance from the road. I mean step back from the highway on property one. >> Right. >> So, >> right. Okay.

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>> This is Badger Monastery just down the road. This is their monument sign not too far off the roadway. They have an external light shooting up. I can't speak to the hours of it turning on. >> So again, other signage on this same road, same use

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with with um that external illumination as well. Thank you. Is there any other information um Heather and Chris that you'd like to provide the board? And then if um if not, we will probably just we'll discuss

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um in the um in the recommendations that I got the last time I went to a planning session was don't close the hearing and then and then talk about it because the uh the applicants might want to say something and they can't if we've closed the hearing. So this is the newest

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practice is that we will discuss this and then you can still speak. If we close the hearing, you can't. >> Right. That's right. Yeah. >> So that's that's what we would like to if if there were some conditions or something like that that come up in this course of the discussion, you would have

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the opportunity to to weigh in on them. Um which you won't if we close the hearing. So >> right, >> gentlemen. >> Right. Um, as I said, we have this re we have this letter from the sign bylaw review committee that has approved um all the

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exterior signs um including the monument sign and then there's as I said there's a question before us about whether we want to um uh grant the variance for the location of the monument sign and secondly approve the the the external

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signs with the lighting and the question on the timing. and whether we wanted to impose a restriction on the length of time that the light these lights could be on on these on these uh on this building. Um so your thoughts gentlemen?

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>> I mean on the lighting issue I I I'm really just in favor of restricting it to 1 hour prior and one hour post. Um, I just I don't see there being, you know, a continuing um need to have them the lights on till

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10:00 at night in a, you know, in a in a school for young children. Um, and I am also sensitive to the neighbors concerns about having lights on um at night. And I and I kind of agree with you,

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Kathleen, that there are the other schools and businesses on Blue Hill A don't have lights on that late at night. And so in keeping with, you know, in the in the interest of uniformity, um those would be the restrictions I'd be in

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favor of. Um are we discussing the variance issue as well? >> Yes. As far as the variance, I mean, like the the the law on the variance is so strict, and I just don't see that this application meets the standards. I mean,

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there are topographical issues with this, but they're not top topographical issues that um are inherent with the land. They're inherent with the development project, right? They were kind of created as part of this project. And I I'm not convinced that that's what

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the variance standard addresses. Um and I I'm also kind of mindful of the fact that I think there could be a sign that complies with the 15 ft setback. Um it just might be complicated to achieve that. Um and then

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I also don't think there's a substantial hardship uh for the same reason. I mean, the hardship has to relate to the to the land. Um, and marketing, advertising, um, that kind of thing. Um, does not qualify as a substantial hardship. Um,

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so I don't know. I mean, I wanted to go first because that's kind of where I'm coming out on this. I'll let you guys try to convince me otherwise, but, >> um, that's kind of the way I'm feeling right now. Um, you go ahead. Yeah, I'm happy to go unless you want to first, Kelly.

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>> Um, I agree on the lighting. Um, I I um for the reasons that Michael stated, um, on the, uh, setback, uh, I'm I'm a little bit more conflicted, although um, I think that I come out this way the same way

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that Michael does. Um I I I take um I take the applicant and his word about um the I think the the sense of hardship. The problem is that I I feel with the papers at least I'm a little bit at sea

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in terms of evaluating that. Um, and I haven't really heard enough in this hearing to make me think that the standard under the statute has been met in this case. Um, and it's and given

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some of the possibilities here in particular, the fact that this might have been a little bit easier if the if if this were 7 and 1/2 ft as opposed to 6.2 feet or whatever it is. Um, and and I'm not I'm

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not entirely sure that that that's not in fact a possibility. For example, I guess I I guess I come out this the same way that Michael does. Um, not because I don't appreciate the the difficulties that the applicant might be facing. It's just I don't I haven't heard enough or seen enough that makes me think that the

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the standards been met. Mhm. I Well, I was kind of I mean, as I said, I've read the sign review bylaw, you know, a couple of times. Um, and and I'm I'm sort of mindful of the fact that I mean, it's it's sort of a variance

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from the sign review. The sign bylaw doesn't seem to me to rise to the same level as if I was looking for a variance for the actual zoning. Um and um so so while I appreciate the fact that you

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know case law would support the fact that we need to find you know serious hardships and all that sort of stuff I'm thinking that the slam bylaw is sort of a lighter standard you know for variances. Um that's just sort of my >> can I can I

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>> can I can I if you can indulge me um just because I think that's important and because I wasn't able to find the I I am going off the statute. >> Um what the lesser what what is what exactly then is the standard that we're dealing with? >> Well, no I mean I I it's still the same language but as I said that we're

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looking for variance for the for the signed bylaw which you know which is a sort of you know it's part of the zoning code. Yes. Um and so it should be you know he he keeping the same standards as any other kind of weed look a variance

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for the a site setback for a building. Um but as I said I'm I'm sort of taking kind of a looser notion because it's just it's just signs and not an actual structure um or an actual use. Um so um and the and the other situation that I

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have is that I did spend time on the board of on the planning board and so I'm also sensitive to the fact that this went through site plan review with the planning board which you know when I was on it was on occasion a pretty painful

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process and so the if they have to go back to the planning board to get the site plan corrected to show a loca the location of the sign in the storm water um or the landscaping. I

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think that's going to be a problem. Um uh you know um a pretty serious one and and you know cuz I because I know from the you know listening to the discussions of the current members of the planning board is that you know the

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landscaping is is a huge issue for them. And so if there are going to be, you know, sort of trees and things like that that have to be bushes that have to be taken down and relocated because we won't give a variance on the on the on

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the uh setback. Um that's u that's going to be a problem. I could see the planning board saying no, they won't let that happen. And so I'm sensitive to the to the conflict between our way of thinking and what the planning board has gotten on

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the site plan review decision. Um and I also I mean because of you know because of my you know background too is that um I'm not excited about the fact that there would be footings for a sign sitting in my

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stormwater um system. I I think that compromises the functionality of the storm water. Um, having looked at those over the years, I don't think that's helpful. Um, but you know, that's

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unfortunately that's, you know, my my experience. I mean, it's hard enough to make sure that you can get people that clean those drainage systems, let alone have to stick a sign 36 in down into it. I don't think that's helpful. Um um so as you can tell I'm sort of in

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support for the grant of the of the variance for those reasons. I'd like to protect the landscaping that was approved by the blading board and I'd like to protect the stone water system that's been installed by the applicant. I agree on the the lighting. I don't see any reason to have a light on that road

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at 10:00 at night. Um I don't know who you'd be marketing it to. somebody driving with a toddler in the back seat at 10 10 p.m. is going to suddenly go, "Oh, yeah. I'm so glad the sign is up here." I I just don't I don't see the purpose of that. Um and I and as I said, I know there's many other signs on that

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road that are not lit let lit that late. Um, so, um, um, I I think that condition on the on the timing is is fine to keep with what the planning board has, but as I said, I I don't think it's as as simple a matter um as um as one would

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hope um to move the sign to a different location. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm also sensitive to the same things, Kathleen. You know, I want this business to be able to finish its development and get up and running. Um, and I know that this is probably one

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of the last things that they're looking for. I just, you know, the the sign setback is in the bylaw and the law as it stands is kind of like preventing me from taking that step. Um, and >> without guidance or without, you know,

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more information, as Chris um mentioned, it's it's hard for me to just kind of ignore the the law on variances just for practical purposes, right? Um, Um, and so that's that's kind of what's sticking in my craw right now.

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>> I I think um I think I I mean I I am I want to be persuaded that we can read the standard differently given what you were saying about this is a

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sign, it's not a structure. Um um and so you know sort of getting me to the red zone. Um on the in terms of getting to the end zone um I I wonder if if we could actually get some more information

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about the the hardship component of this. Um that that could at least make make me maybe Michael feel more comfortable that we're actually meeting the standard. Um um so I think either way either way I

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think I could I could get there. >> Um but that might be helpful. >> So >> I agree and I would just add that you know maybe some kind of discussion of alternatives and and why alternatives might not work or or create additional

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hardships might be a helpful part of that. parents. >> So, here's what I would propose. Rather than I mean, we could take a vote and they would be denied and they'd be having to put their sign, you know, where they're supposed to put it. Um um

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I mean, we we could vote and leave it at the 15t requirement. Um, my thought on it instead is to sort of ask the applicants whe they'd be considering a continuation of this hearing and to see if we can get better information from

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the sign review bylaw committee as to what they reviewed. I mean, did they just review the appearance of the sign or did they go into the weeds about the location? I mean, was there information provided, you know, to them in more

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detail than has been given to us on on the actual reason for the location? Would that does that sound >> Can I just say one thing? >> Yes. Um they we did have the discussion at sign review about the placement and

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there was no Chris can maybe um back me up on this but there there did not seem to be any opposition to the location >> at the 62. >> Yeah I think that's shown that's shown in their notes right and I think seven and a half seven and a half mark they're

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comfortable but we're asking for more than that so it comes to you guys. Um, we had the conversation with the chair of the sign review committee on the storm water this the issues that were presented there. >> So, I think that they're on board with

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the location. They're understanding why they're in support of it. It's now getting that extra foot and a couple inches from you guys um that that is putting us here. >> Yeah. Well, so I think that that um it would

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be my recommendation to you would be to agree to a continuation continuence of this hearing, you know, or I mean or not. I mean, we could say fine, we could take a we could take a vote and discuss what we what we would, you know, what we would consider.

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I mean, at this point, I think what you would be hearing from us, and gentlemen, please jump in if I've gotten this wrong, is that we would approve the special permit for, you know, all the signage on the site. We would limit the

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lighting to 1 hour before you open and 1 hour after you close. And that we would um, you know, deny the variance for the setback. Um, and that you'd have to figure out how to put it in at 15 ft.

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>> 15 ft or 7 1/2 ft. >> Well, you go back to this and go back to the sign review committee and say, I'm going to do we're going to do it at 7.2 and then you don't have to come to us. >> Right. >> Understood. >> I just was clarifying. Okay. Um, I I

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I'm comfortable asking for the continuation, but I'd like to ask a couple more questions on what you guys discussed so I can understand what I would be coming back with. Well, I think you you've heard from from us that you know the the members of the board have we when you issue a variance,

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there are standards set up by the law that require the finding of substantial hardship. And so I think that what gentlemen speak up, you know, but I think what we're hearing is that that the case hasn't been made that this is

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an impossible situation and that the only place that you can put this is 6.2 2 ft from the property line. Am I right about that, gentlemen? >> Kristen. >> Yes. >> Chair, if I if I if I may, the hardships I presented of landscaping, planning

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board, storm water, uh are are substantial and significant. As you mentioned, you were on the planning board. I don't know if you know our background, but we had a completely different site plan. Singlestory building on top of an 18t wall. We had to start all over after our third planning board meeting. We went through seven planning board meetings with the

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planning board. Worked through everything from the the block on the on the retaining wall being a natural stone, the number of trees, what species of trees. Uh we went through it all. It was a process. Um so in terms of of picking your battles and choosing your

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path to approvals, um signage is the lesser of a lot of evils. And so that's where this is coming from. And and I feel like you're starting to hear hear that. So, uh, Mr. Brown, you you mentioned, you know, other info. Are you just looking for us to present in a more

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formal way why we are what the hardship is? Do you just need more documentation of that? Is is what we've presented? >> I guess here's an example of what I'm talking right. So, like we talked about the sign in debt and you want to put the exact same sign up there in in on this

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project, right? Um, but but that sign isn't going to work because it violates the setback, right? Could you use a smaller sign? Could you use a different sign? A sign that's supported in a different way? A sign that's in a different location? Um, you know, any of those things I think would get me over

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the finish line, to use Chris's analogy. Um, but we haven't heard that case, right? All we've heard is that you have a sign that your business likes to use on all its projects and that's what you need to put here for some reason. Um, I haven't heard any anything

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stated that would um that that actually goes to why this is a hardship other than it's going to make your project uh longer to get approved and that's not what the law requires. >> Okay, it's fair.

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>> Does that make sense? >> Yeah. And an an alternative sign size placement understood. That's that's an alternative that wasn't evaluated. >> Yeah. I mean, as is, you know, as as the members have pointed out, um, you know,

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we're s we're bound by the law on on variances and that, you know, we have to meet a certain standard to have those variances granted and and we've got some information, but probably, you know, not enough information. Um, and so if

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there's a, you know, there's a way to, as I said, to address the questions that Michael has raised and that Chris has raised, um, I think we would get we get to a better understanding of whether or not there's an actual hardship here.

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>> Understood. I would you consider and this is going back to like sign you know signage versus zoning variances is signage visibility considered a hardship >> um >> the >> well I'm sorry so I'm looking at the I'm

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looking at the bylaw and so it says under variances a sign requiring a dimensional variance from the zoning board of appeals shall be governed by chapter 48 section 10 which like everything else is. And um they those applications should be accompanied by a

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recommendation from the sign review committee, which they were. And so um you know, so if you had if you'd gone to the if you'd gone to the sign review committee and said, um

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you know, we we can put this at seven something feet instead of six.2. um that the design review committee has the right to do that. So there's an option. I mean that's a another way around is that you we

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continue this. You go back to the sign review committee and see if they can give you the 50% and put it and see if you can get it at seven 7 whatever that was instead of 6.2 >> Mr. Brown's point if if I reduce my sign size I can get there without the the

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variance needed from you guys. So, >> exactly. >> It it's obviously not company's preference, brand marketing perspective, the the best choice because it's not the sign that's most visible from the roadway. But, um, if if

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the the the way this board is going to view it, you know, we have to evaluate it that way. >> I mean, that, you know, that's as a practical matter. I mean as that's would be my recommendation is that you avoid coming to us for you still get a special permit from us and I think you've heard

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that we are perfect we're we're okay with giving a special permit with the hours that we had said 1 hour before and 1 hour after closing and then if you you go back to the sign review committee which would be simpler and say um we

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just want to alter our application to ask for 7.2 2 ft or a smaller sign or something that doesn't require being at six and so at 7.6 7.6 they'll give you that. Okay. So then I I like I'd like to consider that. I

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want to think it through. I want to look at the sides of what >> Right. And you need to talk to your you know you need to talk to Heather. You need to talk to your company and like that. That would be, you know, we give you the continuence and and you have time to talk about that. >> Okay. >> But because otherwise if we say no,

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you're not you're not back here for two years. >> Right. You can't come back. >> Right. Right. And that's what I'm I'm in my head thinking. I still need to come to you for the special permit of the seven and 1/2 ft, but it comes from as a recommendation. >> No, no, no. You don't have the planning.

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>> We just do a special permit that says yes, you can have lighting. You can have signs on a building in a in a on a commercial use in a non-res in a residential area. >> Right. >> So, there's two requests. One, special permit for having signs of any kind

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>> on the building on the on a on the sidewalk, you know, on the parking lot. We're that's a special permit that you need from us. And I think you've heard I think that I could speak for the other two of us that I think that's fine. We we would do that. Um but the variance

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part is the location of the monument sign. >> Right. Okay. >> Everything else is is not the variance requirement. >> Understood. But it still comes back to you for the issuance of that special permit which is why we need to continue.

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So I can come back. >> Well, I'm you know I'm trying to think whether we could vote the special permit and um continue the hearing on the variance. Could you approve it with or deny the variance and approve the special permit?

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>> You don't want to if we deny the variance, you can't come back to say, you know, we want something else, you know. >> Yeah, I don't think I don't think we want to do that. >> I don't think that's a good idea for you. >> All right. Well, then let's just continue it under all these

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circumstances and >> we'll find out how to get to seven and a half feet. work with sign review committee. Um or or you know hopefully if if for some reason I search >> or you can you have your engineers or something. You have your engineer or you

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have your lawyer who who was you know beating his brains out trying to get the site plan approval from the planning board any number of things you know that to come back and make a better case for the hardship. >> Yeah understood. Yeah. Can I Kathleen if you wouldn't mind if I could on that last point. What

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I would say is yeah, what I would say on that and this is going to echo I think um both Kathleen's helpful uh synthesis as well as the comments Michael was saying earlier. Um if you can't get to for whatever reason the seven and a half feet that the um sign review committee

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would approve um then I think the coming back with more is really just to meet the threshold of the statute and more is the way I would put it um and and I and I and I mean this just in terms of what

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I think I need to evaluate as a member of this committee is is more than just what you what you are saying here without backup. I would need some I would I feel like I would need to review something. I would need to have some something I can

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look at, something I can read. Um so something so I can actually understand the basis for the hardship argument that you're making. Um so if if it comes to that point, so just so you know sort of at least where I'm coming from and where

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I think Michael's also coming from. >> Yes, we should. Yeah, if we get to that point, I can certainly I'll go as far as looking how we can move storm pipes and identifying what the planning board amendment process would be to show, you know, the significance of of those

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locations. >> Um, any further comments, gentlemen? >> Nope. >> So, I would entertain H. Yeah, >> I would say no. >> Yeah, sorry. >> I would entertain a motion for a

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continuence of this hearing um to a date to be determined by looking at respective calendars of the participants on this panel um and to give um Chris and time to you know talk to the sign

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review committee >> if he so chooses. All in in favor of that. >> I >> I >> thank you um you know Heather and um and Chris for coming before us and I hope

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that this discussion was helpful to sort of hit you into a successful direction. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Thank you guys for I appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Okay. And we'll um we'll we'll said I mean I we haven't um normally we'd be

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meeting on the um second Tuesday of the month. Um um we had scheduled this one a second Thursday of the month and so that would be um um July 9th.

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Um but um I have a a serious conflict on July 9th unless we did it at a different time than 7:00 p.m. Um, so I would at this point look to probably doing it. Um, we have to talk to Michael and Chris and I have to talk about what um,

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schedule, you know, dates would work and so we'll have to get back to you on an actual date, but >> Okay. >> Um, >> I I I will I think we can try to work um towards even if it's not on one of the

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prescribed dates, we'll try to get this >> right >> scheduled so we can get you guys moving. Yeah, I mean I just that the the week of July 6th um except for Tuesday the 7th, I've got um dress rehearsals for a concert on the 11th. So

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mandatory mandatory appearance. >> Get it. >> You don't want to hear the alto part that you know >> I'm in dress rehearsal for dance recital right now. I get it. >> We can narrow down the date later. Yep.

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Narrow that down later. >> Yes. >> Okay. All right. Well, thank you. >> So, yeah. So, and discuss what you what you know steps you think you want to take and we'll go from there. >> I understand the directives. So, yep. I got to >> Well, thank you very much.

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>> All right. Thank you so much. All right. >> Good night. >> Good night. >> So, can I have a vote to ajourn, gentlemen? >> I think I'll move. >> All in favor? I >> I >> I and I'm just confirming that we all in favor of the continuation.

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>> I think we did that, too. >> Yes. >> Just making sure >> we did. I'm I'm I'm still in favor. >> Okay. Okay. Anyway, thank you very much. >> All right. Good night. >> Have a good night.

Part: 2

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All right, I will I will call this session of the uh climate action planning committee to order. Uh welcome everyone. Thank you for joining. We have a lot of people here in person today. It's kind of fun, right? Um, I

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put public comment on the agenda as the second item just in case I don't uh uh Oh, can't hear the meeting. Matt, can you hear the meeting? >> Yeah, everything's fine on my side.

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>> Okay. Maggie, can you hear the meeting? >> Yes, I can. Thank you. So, uh, Hale, maybe it's on your side. If you click on the air Oh, you can't hear. >> I'll just continue taking care of the administrative stuff. Uh, give him a

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second. Um, so seeing nobody online uh for public comment, I'll move on to approval of the May meeting minutes. Anybody have any corrections or comments

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on the May meeting minutes? >> I move the adoption, Mr. Chair. >> Okay, we have a motion to adopt from our chair and Steve seconds. All in favor? I. All opposed.

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All abstaining. >> All abstain because I wasn't there. Thank you. >> Uh, great. So, that's five. Does that pass? I don't know. >> It's a majority of the quorum. >> Majority of the quorum.

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>> Thank you for your Robert's rules of knowledge. >> One of these days. I've been hearing for two plus years, so it'll it'll get there. Okay. So, Kale, can you hear us?

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Maybe that's phone. Maybe you can pointing towards the arrow next to the audio um symbol because that's where that's often the

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wrong thing. It might want to tell him also he could he could leave and try to dial back in. Sometimes it sometimes it works. Okay. All right. So, um the next item on the

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agenda is the energy manager update. We have K Miller municipal energy manager here to give the energy managers up. The en energy manager will start off by introducing the and I will give the

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official title only once the clean energy legacy transition fellow. >> Nice. >> Now on clean energy fellow. Eric Lashene um who joined us last week. Eric, do you

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want to introduce yourself? >> Yes. My name is Eric Sheen. Um finance major at Mass School. just started last week in western Massachusetts. Have a little bit of background construction, landscaping, wartime net zero housing project.

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So, it's kind of where sparked my interest in like energy, saving everyone clean energy. >> And yeah, I'm excited to learn more about everything, see how municipalities work. Yeah. >> Awesome. Eric has uh run his own landscaping

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business and this program that he's a fellow through a clean energy transition clean energy legacy transition program is a statef funded uh program to help young graduates

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interested in clean energy enter a career in that field. And um he will be with us for 6 months until beginning of December, 20 hours weekly, 10 with Randolph where I also work, 10 with

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Milton. Um one inerson day in each town. Jay's the the inerson day in Milton. Um and mainly he'll be working with us on communications projects. 's first big project is to look at the town websites

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of Randolph and Milton, look at the energy and climate pages, look what other towns do, uh, identify improvements. Um, other communication projects that I'm thinking of are social media campaigns,

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um, or if not a campaign, at least developing content stuff for the town newsletter. Um, and also maybe hopefully uh help jumpstart regular maybe monthly

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energy savings office hours at uh the public uh place here in Milton, whether that's the council on aging uh the the senior housing uh development winter

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uh winter valley or the library. I'm not sure yet. We're starting that in Randolph next week. So hopefully some lessons can be applied from there to hearing. And uh I should also say that part of it

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part of this work will maybe be with the planning department depending on their needs on the climate action plan. And uh also um if you have any ideas, wishes, that's also definitely something worth considering.

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>> I was going to ask about that whether uh you'd be able to help if we want to have a a meeting with the public on let's say transportation part of the uh climate action plan. Get some feedback or put out some

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information. So because the climate action plan is more in the planning department portfolio, they would be the better persons to speak with. But I think that would be a great way to um use Eric's

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skills. Um yeah, at this week's meeting of the waste management committee uh within CAPC final working group committee is a working group. We discussed um the advantages of social media campaigns

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and maybe we can uh be back all the experience that you have with developable energy so that we maximize the resource that we have in you >> definitely social It's very big platform now and it's definitely I think a talent

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could definitely use it utilize it more the right channels but >> Cassandra has done a very good job sort of putting more content out on the DPW Facebook page >> uh and also in today's times

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>> oh it was a nice advertisement there >> I'm very excited about the idea of energy affordability office ours very very excited something sustainable Milton has talked about so we'd be

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excited to partner with you it's a it's a little daunting the idea of like as a volunteer just I'll chef and I'll help people with energy affordability just a little bit of like formal support and we're lining up

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resources I think it would be good >> we can do more if we work together right I'd love to I'd love to drop by the Randolph one and see Yeah. >> What's going on? >> Yep. The first the first office hours well I should say that National Grid

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unlike Eversource has a range of positions called customer advocates and their main responsibility is to go to these public places sit together with lower income persons especially but not only to help them get

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on the low income utility rate or electricity rate. um and help connect them with other resources. And next week, what we're doing in Randolph is to bring the National Grid Customer

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Advocate together with our Mass Save Community First partner, representative Community First Partnership is something where towns collaborate with nonprofits who do outreach to hardto-reach communities like immigrants or

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low-income households. So we will have the utility side, the mass safe side, the utility person has expertise in explaining utility bills which in itself is a very daunting and uh also fruitful

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endeavor. Um and so I sent Eric a 1-hour webinar from the Massachusetts Attorney General's office just about utility bills. Um because that's I think one of the most effective ways and easiest ways Eric can help right away to help explain

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utility bills. Um yeah and I would envision something similar for um for Milton third party suppliers. I don't know if I've told you about that term. That's something you'll you'll have to look out for that. I'm sure there are plenty of

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Milton residents who are overpaying for their electricity because of third party supplers. Actually, I didn't read something about that. There's >> a lot there. >> We have a community electricity aggregation program um that offers a very competitive fixed fixed price

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um that folks who are not already in contract with a third party supplier were automatically opted into almost six years ago now. Um but that's simply something to watch out for in Milton. people are overpaying relative to the

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the town sponsored program. Yeah. >> And do you envision these office hours to be like later in the evening after people get off work or during the day or >> that is something we will have to determine as we move forward. Um

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there are different argument. Um in Randolph, for example, we agreed on Wednesdays between 1000 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. at the intergenerational community center. However, at this intergenerational community center, the

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seniors uh fought hard to have seniors only hours from 8:00 a.m. to 2 p.m. So, there will be no young parents uh who will benefit from this first office hours. So, now we're thinking about

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doing a different at a different time, different place. It's in flux. There you go. You know, one thing just an idea that passed through my mind was it it could be

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something we could partner with faith communities in in Milton to do. Yeah. >> If you sort of co-sponsored one with >> the synagogue, the Catholic Church, >> the United Congregational Church, parish. Um

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>> I I mean ideally I really think it would be good to have something that reaches the biggest number of people on a regular basis because really the regularity will will draw people and uh be be a resource for people and then

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over time depending on resources we can expand and raise attention. Yeah. >> And if we can train volunteers to do it then we can do it more often. And I think yeah today's

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era of overstepped calendars I think being able to repeat an event is really important. >> Yeah. And and I will say one more thing to this. I think that so many of these um too much in my opinion or very much of

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Massachusetts efforts on the climate side on even on the energy efficiency side has focused on homeowners. Mass Save in recent in since its founding has mostly benefited homeowners which tend to tends to benefit middle

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class higher income households. But really the energy crisis is affecting lower income households tenants and these office hours are really the first step towards reaching the lower 50% of the income scale. on on this energy

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question. >> Do you have any other updates? >> Um, so that's for the CLT the energy clean energy fellow side. >> Very exciting update. >> Yep. Um, the second thing is the climate

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leader community status update. Um thanks to again thanks to the efforts the advocacy efforts of the climate action planning committee and uh maybe sustainable Milton and many others we are very close to submitting

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the application we as the town of Milton submitting the application by June 30th to be a climate leader community one step up from the green community status. The select board approved both the municipal decarbonization roadmap and

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the zero emissions first vehicle policy. Zero emissions vehicle first, not the Yeah. zero emissions vehicle first policy. Um, the school superintendent needs to sign off both of those uh

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letters or both of those items and then I will gather the documents hopefully early next week to uh upload them on the platform of the department of energy resources, the state-led department of energy resources and we will submit it

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and then we should we should based on my current state of knowledge we should be in a good position position to obtain climate leader community certification which ideally next year will provide us

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with funding for technical design and then actually money for implementing the projects resulting from the technical design and uh which projects we will select. It's it it'll be up to a million

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dollars, which sounds like a lot, but really isn't that much. Still a good chunk. And uh which projects to select, we will be in a better position to decide that based on, and this is my next point, the community uh the comprehensive building

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assessments, these free in-depth studies of big buildings outlining pathways towards electrification. Um, and we already got this CDA, this comprehensive building assessment for the biggest building of the town of

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Milton, the high school. Um we got different cost scenarios for electrificate HVAC electrification uh ground source heat pump air source heat pump all in the range of uh 20

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million to50 million excluding incentives federal tax incentives and not taking not taking into account the cost of replacing the fossil fuel heating system. And I actually don't

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have I don't have any numbers right now off the top of my head how much it would cost to replace boilers because some of these school equipment heating systems are coming to the end of their life and I don't know how much it will cost to fully replacement replace them. It will

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probably also be very very high. So they didn't give a baseline scenario where you replace >> existing equipment with the same kind of equipment >> in the comprehensive building assistant uh of the high school. They did. >> Okay. >> But that would have been a good thing to do there. Um

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so we are in the process of getting these CBAs for all other four school buildings in Milton. Um, and we're also looking, we're starting to look at uh the MSBA

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accelerated repair program, which out of all state funding sources, the MSBA maybe has the biggest funding power for school upgrades. And it will always require a matching a matching

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contribution from a municipality which is why it's uh it's a bigger commitment question. Um I think 20 or 25 years ago the town of Milton did a really great job at harnessing MSBA funding and ended up only paying 20% of the total project

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costs which for a high income town like Milton was a great deal is not maybe unlikely maybe not to be expected for the next for this for this next round but um it'll be worth looking

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into. Um, another item I have is that we're moving, we're hopefully moving forward soon with EV charging stations here at the town hall and the Council on Aging EV charging

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stations um will be is pending. We'll hold off on that until the next year when Eversource um publishes publishes its new incentives because um it looks like the electrical infrastructure upgrades are

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going to be more expensive than we thought than we initially thought. So, we're going to wait until next year to see how the Council on Aging EV charging stations can be financed. Um, I'm sorry I I rushed through all that, but uh do you have any questions

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so far? >> It's a lot of lot of progress. >> I guess I'm curious um what the status of the solar projects. >> Yeah. >> That were sort of >> the ground was laid for it. Yeah. What's

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going on there? Oh. Um, right. So, town meeting approved the possibility of solar power purchasing agreements at at the fire headquarters, the library, and I believe another project, >> the animal shelter. >> The animal shelter.

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So, at the fire headquarters, which was built solar ready, uh, we still need to confirm details, but it it seemed, and I'm I'm new to much of the many of the technical details.

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If a roof is it has a slope that is greater than 5% then additional attachment is required additional fastening uh is required and

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apparently the fire headquarters roof is exactly at 5%. Which means that uh the engineers looking the the structural engineers looking at how easy it would be to put solar panels on there

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are determining what the extra costs of that might be. It's not ideal, I will say, because it was built as a solar ready roof. Um, yeah. So, it's uh we're

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we're trying to get more information from Select, the solar company on Yeah. on on the extra costs that might be involved. >> So, those would be costs for Milton or would they be cost for Select that they sort of bundle into the Yeah. the

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>> Yeah, it would. Um, so the electricity rate that they initially gave us at 6% per kilowatt hour was fantastic. It will probably not be as good following their new analysis. Yeah.

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>> So the determining slope is 5% or above. >> Yeah. Anything above 5% um doesn't make it impossible, but it makes it less uh economical. But if we're we're at 5%.

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>> The roof apparently is at exactly 5%. >> So but the well the area is above 5%. >> Right. >> So there's a gray area here or >> right which is why further discussions are needed. >> Okay. Makes sense. Has there been any conversation

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about solar for the East Molton Fire Station? >> No, I'm not involved in those discussions. I haven't at least I have been to date. Um yeah, on the animal shelter, I submitted a grant application

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for technical assistance to develop design specifications for solar panels and a and a battery storage system at the animal shelter. Let's see if we get that money. But to go back what Arthur just said about the East Mountain Fire

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Station, I guess I had the assumption any new building the town was constructing would be, you know, some level of lead uh or have the ability to be solar or heat

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pumps or thought through. >> Yeah. So um I guess tech technically even the fire headquarters is solar ready. They they have u blanking on the word right now. They have the the an extra section

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for uh cables to run through. Yeah, forgetting the name. So in terms of the electrical infrastructure, it is solar ready, but the roof slope isn't made. It's it's a question at the end of the

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day of costs. >> Sure. >> Um if the town had a million dollars, it could easily put the solar panels on there, fasten them properly, and it would be fine. But because we're

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dependent on this solar PPA from a private developer, they will um have to look also at their margins. >> So in the in the case of a PPA, these these are not cost to the town directly. It's cost to the solar developer who's

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going to build and own the panels. And they had originally offered a six cents a kilowatt watt hour which is sort of sized to for them to advertise their costs and make a profit. >> Um and if they have to make a larger

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capital investment it might be six it might be >> eight n or 10. Yeah. What are we paying for electricity? um depending on the building because each building has uh different buildings

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are in different electricity classes. Um but between 22 and 28 cents I believe >> so I mean I think the the headline should be even if it's more than six it'll be a lot less than 22 >> very likely.

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>> Yeah. Um so probably probably a cost saving. >> Yep. E unless the the costs are astronomical. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But just to be clear, so there's nothing when when they were architecting the new

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fire station, there was no requirement for them to do a costa differentiation analysis. How they going to heat the building or electrify the building? Is that was that the case? >> Sorry, can you please repeat your question? when they were working with the architecture that would was there

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any requirement that the town or the architect would have to provide an analysis saying you know the construction cost would be x more if we did this greening you know putting greener energy or heat pumps in it but over time you would recover that versus

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you know a larger less of an upfront cost >> I'm I'm not sure on that so the the planning for that happened long before I I started The only thing I know is that it was built as a solar ready fire headquarters. Um, >> are you talking about East Mountain?

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>> Oh, East Milton. It's the same fire station building committee though, right? >> So, probably their their architecture planning was if they're building now, it's probably a board >> and the roof is pretty steep.

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>> It's steep. >> Yeah. and and Brian Walsh is the chair of the fire station public. >> Sounds like we should connect with them. But just at a policy level like Milton has adopted the specialized optin building code which in has provisions

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that encourage solar but it doesn't require it. Um it it does require um um electric service that's sort of adequate to electric support electric heating. So

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you don't have to start out with heat pumps, but you have to be sort of heat pump ready. >> Um probably I would say solar ready as well, although that might be a technical term that I'm abusing. Um, but I think

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if we if we want to know sort of what preparation was done for this, we should connect with the >> fire station building committee. Do you know Ral put us in touch?

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>> I can work with >> um that's that's it from my side. Y >> thank you. It's always a pleasure to get these big substantive updates and somebody's actually doing this for a living until my stuff happens.

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>> Any other comments or questions? >> I just want to appreciate you for getting us to this stage. It's excellent. So, thank you. >> Exciting. Yeah. >> Yes. But I I also again I want to make clear that the leg work for the climate leader

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community status was mostly done by engaged citizens. Stuff like the opt-in specialized building code. I'm sure there was lots of work and many emotions went into that discussion. I was happy.

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>> I'm injured. >> It's been a team effort to be sure and it's exciting to get to this point. Um, look forward to hearing that the superintendent has signed on. That's the last the last step.

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Um, to access the resources to do the work. Well, um the next item on the agenda is uh committee membership and reappointments for the 2026 2027 term. So, I just want to um

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uh share you who's leaving. Uh so, Ron Ron Israel, um Kyle Johnson, and Matt Bonucci have all elected to not serve next term. I think you saw in the chat that Matt is moving out of town. Um

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and um we will um have one new member uh Stevie Cwell from the school committee who's been appointed by the school committee uh serve with us and um was going to try to make it this evening but had other

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things on the calendar. So uh look look forward to working with her very much. Um, the rest of you have all uh uh agreed to to serve another year and I'm very very grateful for that and all all

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of your intentions have been forwarded to this life board. Um, and I expect they they proactively reached out and gave me a deadline. So, I'm expecting uh that'll get brought up in in a um

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select board agenda before the end of the month, those three appointments. And I I'll let you know um when that's done. Uh so there I think we'll have a quorum. Um

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Anna and Hail are both willing to uh move up from associate memberships to voting members. Um but we still have a lot of vacancies. Uh so my intention is to continue recruiting uh new folks to

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fill those vacancies over the course of the summer. Um, we've had quite a few vacancies for a while now, though. So, if we really can't um fill those seats by the fall, I may I may ask the select

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board to amend the charge again to kind of uh make it a little easier to meet quorum and get work done. >> The chamber position hasn't been filled. chamber >> the chamber of commerce position hasn't

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been filled ever um uh we had we have the high school student seat which I would really love to see filled >> um and I've done the first and second thing to try to fill it but um I think it if we

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all kind of reached out into uh the networks of the young people in our lives um maybe Maybe we would have a chance of filling that. >> The the environmental science courses. >> That's where I started. Yeah. And that's

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how that's how we got um um Reagan. I reached out to the >> the teacher of the um climate crisis class at the high school and uh she had

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a name on on on the uh the river town and Reagan joined us. Um I I'll say I think municipal committee work is is um

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slow and at times frustrating even for grown-ups. So like make turning it into something that uh is makes sense for a high school student where they can sort of understand what their contribution is and what they're going to get done over the course of the year would help.

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>> Two other thoughts and I might be able to help you with this one is >> to see whether or not one has an envir science course. I know that Milton Academy has an environ advanced environmental science course

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and I was thinking if there's a Milton resident at either one of those schools, they would seem to be qualified on par with a >> Milton resident at Milton public schools. >> That's right. thoughts

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and uh what if they were a Milton student in an environmental science or curb course in Kerry College. >> Um they could be appointed as a resident I think they wouldn't be >> they couldn't take the high school student.

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>> Correct. Right. >> Very touch. There was a um host of Kerry College at the March Hegel meeting of the Massachusetts Association of

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Conservation Commissions. >> Mhm. >> So we could possibly get down that track and see what's coming. If you're looking for someone at large who's actually doing work in this area at the glitch level,

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>> I think um I'm not sure how like how the seats will get assigned, but but Ron is the select board designate and Matt and Kyle are the uh you know residents with relevant

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expertise seats. Um I think our committee uh partner committee um designations have all been build

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planning department representative conservation commission school committee because the select board just needs to choose their design and then oh the uh town administrator has

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has an appointment as well. So, uh I mean I think one of the the ideas it's town administrator could appoint a staff member even whose uh whose work we impinge upon

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>> if we chose to. So, I think there are a lot of options and definitely intend to use the quieter summer months to try to uh build out our team. Any other comments or questions on this topic?

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>> The high school has an environmental club or >> It does. Yeah. So, they have a recycling club, but I was I was in the high school for my daughter's flute lesson last week and saw a new a new

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club, just a picture of it, but I >> Yeah, I started following like an environmental club on Instagram or whatever just so I could kind of get a feel for who these were. I mean, of course, it's the end of the school year, but and I have a couple of kids at the high school.

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>> The eco-friendly club. Are you interested in making meltton a cleaner, more eco-friendly community? >> Oh, there we go. These are our people. >> So, yeah, they they started May 21st.

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>> Yeah. So, it was absolutely welcome help from from all of you um getting the word out. I did um write a a medium and a short blurb and I distributed it to the Milton Interfaith

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Clergy Association. Um but just thinking of all the newsletters that are out there, the library of the schools, >> this might be a great role for you because yeah, I have a son in high school, too. Oh, yeah. I'm I'm dead

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>> and all of us are older. uh like you know the social media, you know the lingo and the so you might be able to relate a little bit more to you know that >> and I was thinking you'd probably want to make it appeal to a high schooler more because if you told them like oh

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come sit down meeting at 6:30 p.m. probably like no chance. Yeah. You know, if they can make this more attractive to a high school student, it'd be good for us, too. >> It's a little dry. >> Beat their service requirement at high school. >> Yeah. >> The hours.

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>> Yeah. I'm sure a lot of high schoolers would be open to doing a lot of social media stuff. If you can make it appeal something in a certain way, if you tell them you're going to make social media post for the town, I'm sure somebody would be interested in that. >> It would be. >> Yeah.

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and try to make it more appealing to a young group. >> Sustainable Milton had a high schooler um volunteering with us to do graphic design last year. That that was great. By the way, you can define a clear task with a with an outcome we can

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feel good about. And uh and we've had that in working towards the climate leader communities. And you know, knock on wood. We may get there any minute. Uh, and but then I think we need,

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you know, to zero in on some strategic goals for for next year. I mean, I think we're waiting to see uh if we get the EA planning grant and if that comes through, I think that we'll spend relatively more time on the kind of

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public meetings and and um finalizing the draft plan and taking it through an approval process, the kind of completing the work of the charge. I think we need consulting support to do that properly. Um

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I remain very interested in supporting residents in you know their clean energy journey that have to include affordability now. Right. So I think what you're starting

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to work on I think is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to spend time on. I'm not sure if you'd sent me this, but I asked Eric to look into this uh initiative that came from Montgomery County, Maryland, which has been doing

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lots of cool stuff, but it's this uh a nonprofit called, remind me, >> uh Solar United Neighbors. Yeah, it's a nonprofit called Solar United Neighbors that partnered with this company called I Choose R and they've been pioneering

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group purchasing programs for solar and uh heat pumps. So the basic idea is that a bunch of residents maybe coordinated or organized through an organization come together then they can uh get

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better more advantageous pricing for solar panels for heat pumps and it's something it was a discussion that started among my energy manager colleagues

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and I asked Eric to look into that a bit more and I I guess I can share the memo. >> Yeah, I did just finish up. So yeah, >> I think it was complete. But maybe there's more to add stuff, but yeah, it was basically saying >> with the group purchasing program, it's

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almost a 10 to 20% price because of the just incentive to the contractor involve purchase all the equipment and stuff like that. They also just they have a group of clients so they can reduce the prices that way. They use a reverse auction program that looks for their

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lowest bid instead of the highest bid, which there's good and bad to that. If you're not vetting the uh contractors enough, then you might just be getting a guy just tossing low not doing the best work. Um, other issues that avoid their

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local companies or out of state companies. Some out of state companies might not air, might not be the best customer service people to this area because they're not living in it. So, yeah, that was just some of the things, but it's pretty straightforward

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process. You just have the meeting with Sole United Neighbors with the town. Um, there's not much the town has to do. So United Neighbors reaches out and communicates all theformational material to the residents. You guys, the town just basically has to

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sign off on it, allow them to use like the town logo, I think is what they said. Some other thing I It's all in. So I can send that to you guys to respond to other stuff. >> Where did they get their funding? >> Um,

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same question. something you can look into >> because it is a nonprofit so it's um I think they get a little bit of each like purchase like every time someone signs up for I think they get a little

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bit percentage of what they're paying contractor I'm site and that's how we fund but that I'll definitely >> it's in the it's in the Google summary so United Neighbors is funded by a diverse mix of philanthropic foundations government agencies indiv individual

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donors and earned income from its on the ground programs does not receive funding from her affiliate with any solar installation companies. >> Were any of you in Milton for the solarized meltin program? I think it was

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like 2015 or 2017. >> Oh, that already happened. I didn't even know that. >> Something similar. >> There was one. Um, I wonder how it's different, but it's definitely kind of a group group purchasing strategy and stuff. I mean,

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and it's a sensible thing to do because I learned recently that the the soft costs of sales just sitting at dining room tables with, you know, five or six families in order to sell one system,

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uh, is 20 to 30% of the cost of an average system. Massachusetts. So, if you can cut cut out those soft costs and then give people better jobs. >> Exactly. Yeah, I think it was saying that contractors were saving like $300 or $500 per job when they did the

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buyback program themselves. So, it was sounds small, but it definitely adds up over time. Great. >> Great. So, um the next item on the agenda is working group updates. It's kind of a grab bag boost updates.

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We can do a little bit of on the uh working group on waste management. >> Yes. >> Because we met earlier this week and discussed a number of topics and citizen planning for a community

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engagement program probably sometime in the fall by passing summer vacations and allowing time for adequate planning and and uh involvement. the um work that has begun on a local audit,

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community audit of um recycling uh was very successful going into Cassie um she had a lot of conversations both positive and negative

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um and plans evolving for including other people in in the process in the future. features such as students doing public service a community service initiative within the public schools.

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How did the other work? Uh it's random sampling throughout the community of the moonlands when they're on the sidewalk primarily to see whether or not people have a plastic bag recyclables and put

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them in there. That's the major offense and um driver of increased costs. >> I was reading this week um that the city of Quinzy between 2022 and 24

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reduced their contaminate the scope contamination. But involves these two like people would decide to put um regular trash and arable but a yard >> recycling. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

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>> Uh they reduced theirs from something over 10 point 10. 20% down to 6.5%. >> Oh, I wonder how they did that. That's what I like to do a little bit of homework with um >> and this of course affects the cost that's formed vitamins and residents

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because the higher the amination rate particularly if that's to 15% or above on a sampling basis then the rates have to go up because the the carrier has to absorb the costs that are associated with

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separation of materials and then offloading them for the appropriate >> remind me the name of our hauler. >> It's waste management >> waste management >> plant that we uses in Avon which is also the same plant that Brunzy uses.

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>> What is sunrise scavengers that the solid waste? >> Yeah, solid waste I think. >> Yes. >> And so it's single use plastic bags that are the biggest offenders. >> Yes. That's the biggest biggest thing you want >> like grocery bags or like garbage bags

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either >> plastic. >> Yeah. >> Anything that can get tangled up. I watched um so Canton is having this problem way too much contamination and uh they had sort of what we were talking about having like a community engagement meeting. only a few people were there,

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but I watched a video of it and they had someone from the um facility in Avon just talk all about the challenges that they have with um but besides plastic bags which gum up the machines. Um, the

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other big problem is batteries. >> Batteries. >> Batteries can start fires. And he he said that they all like he said lose sleep or the idea of somebody putting like a even let's say a lawnmower battery or some like big battery in

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there. Think >> the rechargeable lithium ions, >> that kind of thing. >> But not not alkaline batteries that say they go in the trash, right? >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, it sounded like it was bigger batteries that could like um their facil the facility had an incident

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like this a few years ago and it got like shut down for like a week or more just because >> and ideally the the alkaline batteries shouldn't go in. >> They go in the trash >> and now there are two facilities in in Milton. It shouldn't go in the trash.

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>> They should not. >> They should actually be put into facilities that accommodate them. we had run at the government. >> Even the ones that are labeled, this goes in the trash. >> If it's labeled that way, then that's ended on that. >> No, I know the button batteries don't

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there's a whole bunch of batteries that don't go in the trash. >> Exactly. >> Now, there's in our office. Yeah. >> Here at Yeah. And there's been a discussion about the possibility of seeing whether uh a

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depository can be placed at the other two fire stations after this major gets underway. >> What was the name of that vendor? >> The vendor? >> No, vendor.

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>> Waste management. No, I offer the the specialized collection in the office here. >> Town does. >> Okay. >> Town collections who they vended to >> right >> off to. >> We're at 15% or so. The town

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>> last time just below 15%. I think. >> Yeah, sounds about right. >> That's pretty high. >> Yeah, it is. It was uh when I went on an audit two years ago with Cassie's predecessor um we were about 12%.

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And the audit prior to that was at 10%. It worked. So we need a good communication program. >> Yeah. And I think holding a sort of traditional public meeting when you we

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want them to know about trash, but I don't think anybody wakes up, you know what I want to do today? >> Go learn about >> go learn about what to put in which bed. >> I need to go go where people are with bite-sized

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>> information and lots of repetition >> and it has to be ongoing, continuous and repetitive. You have to build out a calendar, a cycle if you will. >> Yeah. >> Because new people come into town. We have lots of new people in town, >> right? >> It shows costing the tax.

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>> Do we know what the incremental cost of >> we've asked for that information on that yet? >> That would that would help a lot. >> Yes, >> we could sort of boil it down to like this is going to cost you X dollars.

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It'd be I mean I'm sure inflation also played a role that we'd see of our trash stickers $5 on that different legislative level. But I can see that unfortunately uh in this

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new state environmental bond bill, the Senate version, which was going to provide funding for environmental bonds, but also included other environmental regulations, including a statewide uh single plastic use ban did not make it

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into the House version. So the Massachusetts state house wanted to remove the single plastic uh single plastic use. >> Yeah. >> Was voted on today because

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>> it was yesterday. >> And I know >> I think by noon today they voted after noon. >> And I know that Massachusetts environmentally minded states in this country. They've been working on it hard for a long time on those single plast

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single use plastics, but again it didn't make it into a lot of it. So that's >> but it's a town by town. >> It's a town by town, but this would have been a state. I I've lived in Rwanda for three and a half years and they do in Rwanda when

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you arrive at the airport, they check the suitcases of all those tourists from the United States and they remove single single use plastic bags in. >> Wow. >> Wow. Nationwide ban. >> Yeah. When they do something there,

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thank you for the update. uh anything from transportation. Uh I will it's it's sort of a a blend. I mean I so as you guys know I've worked with this committee. I'm on the board of

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sustainable Milton. I attend the United Congregational Church next door. Uh and it's been an exciting month for the green team with the United Congregational Church. We um uh had a congregational vote

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um couple of weeks ago to do a big solar installation um and also uh make a congregational commitment to uh replace fossil fuels by 2015.

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Although what I'm most excited about is a commitment to actually do the planning work for what that would entail over the next 12 months, which is more tangible. Um, so that was uh that was a lot of work,

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but a lot of a lot of folks um assisted. So, it was really nice to uh to see a community effort like that take shape. Um >> that's removing the radiators or the boiler or >> we're we're at a stage where um we

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really need the inventory like what is the equipment? Uh we know we have natural gas equipment. So where where is it? What kind of duct work do we have? How's the installation? Right. Um and just

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collecting that information is is work. So getting getting a clear uh vote of support lets the staff know who they should spend time on that. >> So I'll I'll spend that as a

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uh building emissions flipping group update. >> Good model. >> What's that? >> Good model. >> Yeah. I mean, it definitely is a a collective action problem and we just need to go go where the decisions are being made. Um,

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and try to steer steer them um give people a reason to consider. >> Nice. >> Any other updates? Ron isn't here to do conservation.

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What will happen with the conservation subworking group? Wonder without Matt. >> That's a good question. Um I know Ron would like to see somebody um uh carry on with that. I think there are some really nice proposals and the the

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challenge is um you know assembling a team of folks who can either raise money to pay somebody to do the work or or find volunteers with the right skill set to support some of the work.

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>> But how do some town meetings plan? um he was definitely thinking about it. So I I would encourage anybody who's interested in in uh helping that move forward to reach out to Ron and uh

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yeah see see what the next steps might be >> and there might be somebody in the new ranks would be interested. Mhm. >> Okay. So that um that will

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just follow your mention of funding um that would be a potential topic for the community preservation committee funding sources. the cycle was the 27 now closed

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uh last month. >> Okay. >> So that would give a window of opportunity for better people to collaborate on getting ready for proposal for next May. >> I think there was um so one one of few organizations that Ron had connected

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with was the Neponsa River Wide Association. It was Sean Manti from from NEPRA had also recommended uh CPC as a potential funding and and the conservation commission was

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aligned with that thing, >> right? But as we all know, it's a it definitely somebody's got to do a fair amount of leg work to go and it's a competitive process. >> So yes, >> but that would I think be the path forward for that subject.

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Are they involved with the u taking down the the dams on the leans or is that just the space EPA? >> Well, the NECA NECA I think is involved in advocacy for that. I think it's their position that it should be removed. >> I thought the funding was approved or

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something. >> BPA funding is for cleanup. It's a super fund has not in there dredging the bottom to remove nasty chemicals, >> right? >> FAS. They have to get that clean before they can move back. >> Okay.

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>> Because all contaminants are behind. So not just that two dams both of them and the philist dam is u very dangerous because it's in

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disrepair. It's eroding. >> So getting the container out from Brook down to that dam in short order was an imperative. And once that's done and they can remove the dam and I was trying to clean up the network would take a

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lead role in and the damn removal >> um advocating for it or doing it >> advocating for it. They didn't have the resources themselves to do something like that. It's an enormous task. I I can imagine >> the Toronto waterershed

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association um and the communities in that area have um we moved in and powder and to several dams in that arena and the results have been phenomenally positive in short order to see weapons restored

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for 48 months. >> Wow. Back to pristine condition. It's amazing what happens. And the bee dam problem is compounded by the fact that we have two centuries of silt coming down in the cross stored behind that dam with with

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contaminants also and that raises the level of water. So >> yeah. >> So so with the dam removed with the water level it wouldn't impact any of the buildings around and the pond down there. Um, I can't it's

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>> I've heard that the people who live there would don't really want the damn removed just because it's part of like the whole scene, you know, they don't really want it to change >> and and there are different approaches they can take. >> That'd be a major study.

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But then they had the shad coming back up the river. They could go fishing. >> Yeah. >> Is this at lower m where is this at lower? >> That's where the baker is. the first DM is um up towards the manip

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area. I mean, it sounds like a public advocacy effort is a little premature with all the work that precedes it, but when they get to that point, I think having a a rendering of what it would look like >> and they have that >> would probably go a long way towards

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making people comfortable assuming that it wouldn't look terrible >> and they do have their community engagement um groups from high park, manipulation you're saying because that vice part of Boston

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great okay well the the last item on the agenda is just an acknowledgement of the outgoing members I'm sorry that they're not um here to hear it but um send them the minutes

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as I said before u uh Ron Israel and um Matt Bonucci and Kyle Johnson are not planning to serve on the committee next year. Uh Ron has been serving on the committee for three terms. He was one of

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the one of the uh the founding members when we got started in 2023. um and has done a ton of work to um uh envision conservation projects that would um make

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the the valuable natural lands around Milton more uh resilient to climate change and um building connections with relevant organizations in the area. Um I do hope that as you said some of that will continue to move forward. I think

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they can move forward with or without uh a to hold in this committee. >> Um so a lot of thanks to Ron for all his hard work. Um Matt also I think was a a major partner in that effort and um

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reaching out to um uh our fire um firefighters in Milton to work on the um the uh

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the uh wildfire component of our draft climate action plan. So a lot of thanks to Matt for that and I think Kyle was a contributor in the transportation working group. >> Right. So, and even u just the the the

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time and it takes to clear at 90 minutes in the calendar once we show up for a super incredibly exciting committee meeting on a regular basis. I just really admire um folks who are

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willing to um serve a community in that way. Um not splashy but meaningful. So, I want to offer my thanks to all the outgoing members and uh and my welcome to Stevie Cwell and

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hopefully over the coming months we'll have some more memories to welcome as well. >> And thanks to you for continuing. Yeah. >> Yeah. Thanks. >> I'm obsessed at this point. I can't stop. So,

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>> um well, great with that. Uh unless uh there are other comments or questions, I'll entertain a motion to adjurnn. >> I move that we adjourn. >> Right. Kim moves that we adjourn. Any seconds? >> No, sir.

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>> Okay. All in favor? I. All oppose. Unanimous. Thank you everybody for making time to be here tonight and uh we'll see you soon.