[Music] Good evening and welcome to the 51st meeting of fiscal year 2025 for the Milton Planning Board. At this time, I'd like to now call the meeting to order and begin with our administrative items.
Um, first, um, we have, um, approval of minutes. Did you want to do the introductions? We should do introductions first. Yes. Um, yes. If Cheryl, if you'd like to introduce yourself. Sure. Cheryl Tagaya, secretary. Sean Fehey, member. Me Yieldfield, member.
Jim Davis, member. And Meredith Hall, serving as chair. And tonight uh with us we have on Zoom um Cheyenne our staff Cheyenne for sure. You're on mute. Yeah.
Um there now we can hear you. Now I can hear you. I am your assistant director of plan. Great. And Julia Gman is with us. She just had to step out for a moment. So we'll welcome her back in just a moment.
Um and then we can now um now we can look at our the approval of our minutes. And we have five sets of minutes um that Cheryl has um done a great job um editing and going through. Um they are from the dates of May 8th,
May 13th, May 21st, May 22nd, and June 12th. Has everyone had a chance to review those? Okay. Um I did have just um two small things that I noticed on just the June 12th.
Okay. Um under um MBTA community zoning um under Tom Dhy of 247 Adam Street uh the third row third line down right to choose there's an extra letter there are
adjacent. What page was that Meredith? The first page. first page. Okay. Yeah, it's the second paragraph, the third line. Choose and there's just a letter R that we can tell Julia.
Okay. Do you see that? No. So, right to choose probably after choose. Yeah. I downloaded what Cheryl sent today. There's no R. Okay. Okay. You don't have it in yours. Okay. So, maybe that was corrected.
Oh, I see. Yeah, I see where it is. Um, okay. And then on page two, requirement is T. There's a letter T set by the law. Do you not see that? Okay. I'm sorry. Can you do that one again? Sorry. On the on page two of June 12th. Yes.
The first line density requirement is I show a letter T set by the law. Yeah. Oh, I see it. Yeah. Okay. up here. I'm correcting it in the online version, too. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's just an extra
letter. And then just a few lines down, the fourth sentence, process all zoning is amended. And there's just two periods. Good eyes. Very good. Impressive.
And the Yeah, but everything else I thought looked great. Um after amended you said after amended. Yeah. Just an extra period. Before Mr. Fehey. Oh, I see. Yeah. Okay. When you do these track changes, you lose some of those.
Right. Right. And those are just tiny little things. But um Okay. Okay. So, with that, and I'll give those to um I already corrected them in the file that's in the folder. So she should have she accesses those she'll have the
correct perfect when she had them printed out but that's it's just the 12th right and it's just the 12th that okay that was amended everything else is perfect. So I would entertain a motion to approve
the minutes and with the two two small amendments to June 12th. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes from May 8th, May 13th, May 21st, May 22nd, June 12th with the two small changes made to the June 12th minutes.
Second. All in favor? I I thank you all and thank you Cheryl again for getting those pulled together. Um so now we are moving to um the next
meeting dates. We have our next schedule uh regularly scheduled meeting will be on the 24th of July. Hard to believe that's going so quickly. Um and then we have August 14th. So
the warrant articles are due before the 14th, right? Yeah. A draft of the warrant articles. Yeah. So, you know, depending on how much we could get done, we could look at adding moving our meeting that would have been on the 14th to the first week
on the 7th in August. I don't know if that's possible. I think that's the way. Would that make sense if we need to do any cleanup? Again, we'll um I'm good. And again, we'll do what we can, you know, in this this is such a
short window of time before the fall town meeting. So, and we I'll talk to the board committee. Um I just think we want to be mindful not to send anything over too late to them. I think um the select board is going to be
um less forgiving, if you will, and they want to hold to the time frames a bit more so to not back up the warrant committee. So, since they have to go to the select board, and I think the select board meets on
They'll meet the They'll meet on the 5th or the No, they'll meet on the 12th. And the 12th typically. Yeah. But when was it that we got an email from Cheyenne, right, with the date that the warrant was going to close? Let me see. Cheyenne, could you Sorry, I read that. Maybe just review those dates again when
the warrant closes. Yes. Let me Thank you. July 1st. That's when she sent the email. July 1st. Yeah, it's July 1st email. STM timeline. Of course, it's not opening. Why is it not opening? Oh, I'm
not online. Yeah. So right close eight um court approval articles August 12 and then they need to approve the warrant by the 7th of October. Okay. So then is that okay if we then we
would have a a little break in between if we move our meeting to the 7th rather than the 14th. Okay. All right. So, our next meeting, um, is that good for Cheyenne? Is that good for you? Okay. Nope, she won't be.
Oh, I'm sorry, Cheyenne. I know we're going to be celebrating you on the 24th. Um, so it will be the 24th and um and the 7th will be the next meeting dates. All right, great.
And um so uh Cheyenne, do you have u any um tell um updates for us from planning staff? Um the only thing I have is since our last meeting, we did receive the
application and narrative from the fire station building committee. um they will be coming on the 24th as it's a public hearing, a joint meeting with the tree warden as well as a resident um over at 179 Highland. So both applications have
been sent out for review for the next. Okay, great. And then Cheyenne, the only other thing to um that you might want to mention is the email that Nick sent out today regarding um wanting the planning board's thoughts on the mapping for the
liquor license. It's not on our agenda, but I think people can give feedback to you directly um if they want to take a look at that. Yeah. Do you want to pull the map up
feedback? Yeah. Yeah. Now, just uh quickly while she does that, back to the fire station. That's a public hearing. So, have has that neighborhood been made aware, have are they in talks with the neighbors? I wonder.
There is a legal ad sent out to the neighbors. Yeah. Like in a butter's notice. Oh, okay. Yeah. This is about moving the island. Yeah. Yeah. Taking that down for the And I know Yeah. both are going to the
historic commission um that Tuesday before. So they'll um have their comments prepared to give to us as well. Isn't the moving of the Allen kind of a mustave because of safety? It Yeah, it's it's a fire act. Yeah, it's going to be fine, but it's just
sort of a procedure that even the town goes through if they're removing a a tree in a Okay. on a scenic roadway. So, all right. So, that's the map that was sent out. Did everybody get that? Yeah. Um, and Cheyenne, do you want to just explain that real quickly for the public
who are may want to weigh in as well? So far, so at our last town meeting, um there was an article before adding more licenses and at the time it was so it could be expansive of the entire town,
so zone specific, but now we kind of have to make it a little more zone specific. So our town administrator, Nick Milano, went through our map and kind of identified zones that he thinks would benefit from these liquor licenses. Um so that's kind of where we're at in the process. We just got
that email today of his proposition of zones. So, okay, great. Thank you. So, we're not um you don't want our comments right now? Well, we can just if it's part of her
update, we could if you want to. Um so my concern um is adding um two um
two locations on Route 28 in light of um the horrible accident that happened uh last week with three fatalities. Um, you know, I've been,
uh, you know, sounding the alarm about how dangerous Route 28 is and adding more density to Route 28. And, um, it's only going to get worse um, in the future. And it's not just
this section of Route 28, which is it's bad. I mean, I hear sirens every day. Um, but it's also, you have to remember Route 28 goes all the way around to the other side of the town, which I think on
Nick's map also has um um, you know, another potential site. So, I'm just cautious and raising concern about adding more um, traffic
at this point in time on Route 28. until a complete um study has been done um on on this section on the whole section of R 28. In fact,
yeah, it was a devastating accident. any I um I don't recall that you know the fact that this would be liquor licenses for anywhere in town uh because it seems to me that they normally would want to be
associated with business uses. Um so that's just my overall general comment. And then my second comment would be um Curry College. I I don't know what the the thought is
there but um there are underage students I imagine and so um historically I think generally I'm not saying Curry College in particular but alcohol in colleges and college students
you know can be a safety um concern too to to um to your point. So, I guess I I would like to understand why Curry College was selected. Um,
and it seems to me the places that we said that that are in the MBTA community zoning that allow business, which may not have it now, those would be good places because there could be businesses coming in there. Um,
so that's my general thought. Yeah. And the other um thought I had was why are we looking at um actual districts in town? Should we or could we
be looking at indust industries and commercial uses um to be able to expand um you know offering um I don't know if it's just a bar a liquor license isn't just a bar. It also
could be a package store, um, a liquor store. So, would we be able would current businesses be able to apply for a liquor license? And, um, and then that way you're are you're allowing an
existing pre-existing non-conforming sometimes to be able to expand their offerings. Well, there are businesses on Randolph A, right? And that's probably why it was selected. Um, and Wallist Golf Course has a liquor
license or Wallson Golf Club. Um, and you know, whether it's something like a Newm Farms would benefit from being able like the plate used to have a brunch and serve
mimosas or whatever, right? Um, so I guess that's another factor in terms of Rand Fav Maggie. But I I uh I do take your point. This I think the um I might have a little different idea about like the speed being really the a
safety issue and usually when you have more people you're going to have it's going to cut down the speed because you're going to have more comingings and goings, but I I get the the overall point about safety. Well, I mean there's a a high traffic count on Route 28 now. I went online to
look at their um their report and I I don't know the exact number. I've forgotten, but it's like 300,000 cars a day or something on Route 28. It's an incredible amount. So, to your point, the more traffic, the slower the speed. That doesn't seem to
be um a correlation currently on Route 28. then they then maybe it can take the lane diet that yes mass DOT had proposed and get bike lanes and sidewalks which would improve it vastly you know so that's where I would support um if if
there's an actual change in the design of um Route 28 um putting in turning lanes fixing the lights uh the lights don't always trigger even when I'm coming out a hillside street it sometimes it wasn't reading my car so
then I would have to go through the red light at Hillside to go on to Route 28 cuz it was never turning green for me. Um, so I would think that some things would have to happen. Um, seems to me that if if they took away their
prioritization of getting cars through Milton, then you would have more places to cross. Like there's if you think about like the neighborhood that's where Sasserman, etc. They're isolated if unless they're in the car and they're still kind of dicey coming out of there in the car, right? But you can't really
do a bicycle or pedestrian orient to kind of um access there even if it's nearby because of the challenges crossing. I mean I think Reed still has the same kinds of issues in terms of being able to cross. So, one of the things I think that was identified uh in
that bike pedestrian master plan um is just and the kicker is at the top of Sassimon are trail heads that you could actually go and hike or bike and it just you can't get to them. Yeah. I mean, it was dangerous as hell 20 years ago when I lived on Sasimon trying to turn out and now it's just got worse.
Yeah. So I I mean I would love for us this not on our agenda but to send a you know a support to the select board in terms of advocating for th those kinds of changes and on uh rand
we should put that on the agenda. Um but I would like to see this somehow opened up to the non-conforming uses in town. I don't know how we would do that cuz there's so many little pockets, but I mean, and not to signal you out, but if you wanted to sell gift baskets with a bottle of wine, you can't do it and
you're missing an opportunity. So, like, how would we absorb those? I think that's to Maggie's point about the use versus the geography. But I think they have to tie, they've been told they have to tie it to the geography, and I think I'm getting a sense that what he selected was trying
to give that opportunity. So maybe that question could go back is can it can it get tied to uses as well as maps which I think gets at what you're both saying. No, good call. I missed it. Yeah. Okay. So Cheyenne, if you could convey th that
information um or thoughts to Nick. I know the select board is going to be meeting on this on the 22nd before we meet. So that would be great. And anyone else who has any comments, please feel free to
send it to Cheyenne and she can send it over. Sean, did you have anything you wanted to add? No, not really. I I um I was, you know, I was hopeful to have more of an explanation from Nick as to why he chose what he chose, but some of it is just some of I guess is just pretty logical,
but um no, I don't really have a lot of comments on. Okay. Okay, great. So, Cheyenne, was there anything else? Anything else that you wanted to update on for staff update? No.
Okay, great. Um, so at this time we can now move to a citizen speak. Um, if there's anyone here in the public who would like to join us, welcome. Good evening. Good evening everyone. Is this close enough? Yes. Um,
one additional point. Welcome to Cheyenne. although I can't see her and you might want to double check a recent review of some of the requirements is when you are having a meeting everyone's has to be seen visibly on Zoom so double check into that just passing that along
along with the other reason that I'm here tonight um right thank you so much um especially for Cheyenne Diane Dulio Agustinino uh town meeting member since 1983 and a former warrant committee member
for years and a former selectman for years. Currently, or possibly we're still in waiting for reappointments, although they weren't done legally last year by the town bylaws. And that's really why I'm here at your citizens speak. I have grave concerns about way
too many legal, you know, technicalities being ignored. Um, but I'm chair of conservation and commission. So, Cheyenne, I look forward to meeting you in person someday. You received each of the members along with the select board along with the clerk as soon as it um
was brought to my attention received copies of the concern that the article five and six were not properly or legally disposed of at town meeting. And I'm just going to give a little bit of background as to you know I've never
been a lawyer. However, all of these years studying the law for the town of Milton um has really led me to this situation tonight. I sat along with Maggie who was a co-signer of a citizen citizen citizens article and several of
you um actually all of you are still the same elected officials on some of the very topics that I've now pinpointed we have not abided by state and local laws. Um and the reason that our citizens
article to finally put Pope's pond under the care, custody and control of the conservation commission per the 1963 I believe article that passed in town meeting was because as the war committee sat here
um the vote was 50/50 tied vote sounds kind of familiar to the land land swap vote you know by one vote and the um chair of Conservation Commission was here. He came to the table informed the warrant committee. Any day now the land
court was going to approve moving the post pond under the care custody and control of what the land swap requested which was to split it between the park department for that 5.5 acres or
something and the conservation. Now you're sitting here saying Diane why are you explaining this to to us? Because here we are over 24 months later and the land court is not and most likely never will be able to legally do that because state lawyers informed
Maggie and myself your 1963 motion article that passed must allow it to go to the conservation commission for their care custody control. And then when you listen and start digging into these things, it even gets more concerning as
to who is overseeing that we're following the law. Because you'll recall I stood at town meeting and questioned adding $250,000 to go to in the warrant it says Peverly Park. Well, Pely Park, we can't just
give a quarter of a million dollars to a park. Um I called the Department of Revenue legal department. They confirmed to me, well, town council would know that appropriations can only be made to
the entity that has the care, custody, and control of the land. And yet, we went through town meeting. I think it's over 300,000 now. So what I'm bringing before you the issues on article five and six has individuals who took the
oath of office to uphold federal, state and local laws is that at town meeting the I'll read this to the um town moderator and according to the bylaws the moderator we only have one
moderator at a time in the town of Milton because the moderator wisely decided decided to recuse herself. There was the need for town meeting to have a motion made of a nomination and then for a vote to be
taken. After that vote was taken is when the individual who received the most votes would be sworn into office to be the temporary moderator. At that point and only at that point would they have the authority to oversee and moderate
article five and six. Those are the two articles that come under your jurisdiction and that you're responsible for. So the moderator when um I emailed to request when the individual was sworn
in because if you'll recall on the second night other people had questioned the temporary moderator and he commented he was sworn in. Um the lawyers that I spoke to explained after your vote after Tom vote is when you should have you know that's when the swearing in could
have happened right on stage as other towns might do. So it sounds like a small technicality except there were other issues. Um you'll recall on article six and I can always I might not have given you each of these serious
concerns of legality that so the I also spoke to and provided information to the attorney general's municipal law unit because they did after review a few years ago of the electronic voting devices and the way those were put into
they agreed the town violated the law. um the certification document that goes with the submission of the article does not fully explain um that whether or not the law was upheld at town meeting. It's looked at
by the town of Milton has well we saw this we heard this that doesn't mean it was legal and to think about where this could end up years from now. So, article um six, the citizens article did not
have the map date on the certification form to the attorney general municipal law unit. The map dates very important to make sure um at town meeting. I brought this up to the temporary moderator and yet when he brought it up
to town meeting, I do not recall and I have to review the tape and it's important that you do. Um this was a citizens article. citizens articles, you can't just say, "Oh, are we going to change this?" Like if they if you wanted article five to be amended, you would
say, "Yes, we accept a friendly motion." And you know, you don't have to vote it. But with the citizens article, it would have had to have been, you know, there were what, at least 10 that are in the book, but there were many other art um
signers on that article. So just all of a sudden inserting a map date is not is very questionable as well as the fact that there was a large amendment to the um what was in the warrant with the extra with the streets
actually identified. So if the map was not in the warrant, the exact date to let the citizens who might be concerned know and I know um former selectman Roxanne Mosto spoke to this that you know people are asking her wait a minute my street all of a sudden is mentioned
um and I really you know I don't want to take too much of your time but we could end up putting the town in such a legal bind if article 5 and article six are not properly the word is disposed of and thankfully or Not thankfully the um
actual moderator the moderator did go back to the podium and state don't leave yet. I need to take control back. So town meeting was legally um dissolved. So you can't just say oh it wasn't legally dissolved. We can we have to
reopen. It was only it was not even properly adjourned. It was fully dissolved. So, the question with someone overseeing the debate, overseeing the votes, um, not having been sworn in
after an election, that's almost like me saying, "I'm going to run for the planning board next year, but I'm going to go upstairs and get sworn in now." You know, it's it's just not something that you can do. Um, and there there's been no response. Uh, a lot of lawyers that I have talked to, well, what are
they coming back to you with has an answer. I don't see how they can. I also over a month ago asked for um the moderators, not the moderators, town council's errors and omission proof. When I was a seated selectman, I requested that because we had a lot of
contracts. There were questions on the contracts. I wasn't even given it as a seated selectman. So, that should be a matter of public information because we've also heard about Tom Dargy. Oh, he might not have had errors in admission, which that was
all just hearsay when I am telling you I've requested it under public records. I have not received it to even find out. Okay. All these questions at town meeting when we have town council being paid to sit there to make sure that you all make legal choices and that we as
town meeting members pass things legally just the same way with the Lamb Woods um or the land swap article and the Pope's Pawn article. And the other big thing that I learned, and it's right in the state law, uh the deed for lamb woods
was 100% in perpetuity because it was conservation land. It says it right under Mass General Law 184 section 31. um whether or not stated in any deed that raises serious questions as to what
town council presented to us and that only won by one vote. So I am really imploring you, you know, you can call and ask me any of the details. Thank you. But it's very important that your article 5 and article six
every step of the way because I probably didn't mention all the questionable steps. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. Maintaining your overall for bringing this attention time. Okay. Great. Thank you. Okay. Um, anyone on Zoom? Cheyenne, are
you seeing any hands up who would like to speak? I say to speak. Okay, great. Thank you. then we can move on to our um our next item on the agenda
and that will be um to discuss the articles for fall town meeting. Um I know we we had organized a list of things that we were going to think about and sort of prioritize. Um I had sent out um asked
Cheyenne to send out um a draft of sort of a template that I thought we could work through in thinking about the sign a sign review. I thought that would be one. I know I don't know if people have had a chance to look at Cheyenne had also sent a few of the Airbnbs. I know
that was um a concern or anything else um that folks want to discuss, but I thought if we could at least try to get one thing accomplished, you know, for town meeting, it would be nice to check off another another box. So, is that
okay if we walk sort of through this and discuss one? Um I don't know. Yeah. One thing that was on it might be on the list, but yeah, from 2019 and I'm trying to think of things that are kind of low hanging fruit. Yep.
2019 there was um an actually I'm not sure when it was first adopted, but the traffic impact mitigation, you know, triggers a contribution to the fund. There was a miss in there where the business districts were left out of
having to um be subject to it. Okay. And we the board at the time brought an amendment and it got sent back for further study and it's not been studied since. But it's a missed opportunity.
You know, I think we asked for it for um maybe 440 grand a when it wasn't being triggered. So I I just thought that that was one. It's like if this you know project is going to contribute to
traffic and parking issues then they would have to make a contribution into a fund that is for that particular neighborhood or well the fund is one for the town but it's for the business distri distribution out would have to go towards the neighborhood impacted by the
project which made the contribution. So, I can get get that out. Uh, but I just want for our next meeting, but I just wanted to raise that since we didn't talk about it before. I think that would be great and it it's doesn't it's not it's the work's been done in the past. I think I
don't recall what the concerns were at the time. I'd have to go back and look. Um, but if uh if you're interested, I I will do that for the next seems like a simple Yeah, especially if most of the work has been done on it, then
I would think that'd be easy enough. It's one of those that was sent back for further study. So, we just have to look at what what the concerns were. All right. And that was an amendment to the traffic and bylaw. I'm sorry. It was the traffic impact mitigation.
Um, I can look up what section of the code it is at at at some point, but it was um that's good. Article four in 2019. It looks like on my list, which is the list that Joshua
has put together. Was that on your list, too? Um, Julia, I didn't have a print out a print of everything that's on your list. So, I Okay. And then as far as signage, um,
is the signage. Do you want Cheyenne to pull up the list that we had talked about? Cuz Sean wasn't here. So, that might be just helpful for Sean. Yeah, I wasn't either. Yeah. And Jim, I'm sorry. Um, yeah, we had a small crew and we were out by 8:15. So, you missed a good meeting. That was a good one.
I'll try to say less. So, we're at my 10. Um, Cheyenne, if you wouldn't mind pulling up those lists. Me, too. That Julia had built. Yeah, I made just like a general list. I'll have a list from Julia. I just rewatched the
Zoom and made a list of what we talked about. Um, just because people want to know what we were proposing. So, I can or it can be Julia's. Yeah, either one. That's so while she's doing that um this that that Josh had put together in May of 23
um identified things that had been discussed but hadn't made it to any formal language for submission. Mhm. Um but something that I have I dug back out from my list here and from 2018
Maggie it's aligning um nursery and farm language with state language and Marian McCre had supplied some language for that. Yeah. I don't um I don't know if that's something for the
the fall because of limited time, but I I would like for us not just to decide about the fall now, but to decide about the spring because it'll be here before we know it, right? And we'll have a lot more time to be easy to the things that might take a little more time. Yeah. Or public input.
Um but we want to pri I I just think we should prioritize which things that we think we can do now and what we can do in the spring. Can you increase the size of that to see sort of what?
Yeah, I can try to sort of put this on top. Yeah, that would be on my right. Exactly. Yeah, just for general. Um Yeah. So, what else while she's doing that?
Um that the small cell wireless I think was something that 5G. Yeah, the 5G. Um, and that's something I think that is already pulled together in and the cut and fill which we've talked about. Um, and I had done some work with
Tim and Denny Swenson on that before and it got paired back to what that tree bylaw was. But, um, it does um, it was something that Joe Pondac was involved with and I have notes from those discussions with him. I think it's
important like we're going to lack a little bit of institutional knowledge in the build in the building department, but I think it it's important to get their feedback um because they're the ones who have to, you know, look at applications and decide what conforms and doesn't
conform. And then also the ZBA because they're also the ones that get the complaints that well they look at the complaints but they also have to make the variances and the special permits and so forth. So, I uh I think it'd be important to ask them if there's things that they
think are lowhanging fruit that great um that we should address. Well, one thing on the cut and fill and I I appeared before the pointy board. Um, you know, when
believe it was Cheryl and Rich and Kathleen and Denny and the cut and fill bylaw covers a lot of seemingly dissimilar um topics.
You would think that in my mind cut and fill was literally you're going in and cutting land away and then bringing land in for projects. But one of the last paragraphs on the cut and fill
references um nurseries having the ability to bring in clean earthn materials and for everyday use and it I requested
I I think it was like back in 20 20 maybe that that really was a very Oh, I think Meredith you were on it do. At that point, I provided language, it really should be taken out of the cut and fill because it has nothing to do
with cutting and filling. And so, if we're looking at the cut and fill, then I think we have to look at the whole thing and we might have to parse it out and put it uh into the correct um
under the correct heading in our zoning. So again, our shade tree shouldn't should not be in cut and fill. That should be a different article. So I think that cut and fill is just kind of very unwieldy. It needs to be addressed.
Yeah. And I don't think that's something that can be done for fall. I don't think it's something that can be done in one meeting. But I there is a new building commissioner who will be coming on board. So it would be nice to include. Um and I had done I had taken a look at what some other
communities have um for this topic and there was a there's a model land clearing grading and protection of specimen trees bylaw that's um the Cape Cod Commission has it's a model bylaw so like Cape Cape Towns can adopt uh from
that model bylaw the way I understand it. So that would be interesting to Yeah. And then there was um there are a couple other communities that had some. So the trigger, one of the things that was up that I was really surprised about was
there was no permit required unless it was something like 7,500 cubic yards, which is a lot. And um so like you you know the property out on the very end of Canton Avenue right before it makes that right turn to
to connect with um Blue Hav. Um there's a couple of fences and shrubs etc. That's all fill. And I remember calling Joe Pondac about it and asking him for the plans the the site plans that showed
all the fill. and he didn't he only had plans for like the uh structure there. And I said, "Well, did did you make a determination that this didn't require a permit for the fill?"
And he he had made that determination. Um but if the bylaw isn't that explicit, then it's an interpretation of the building commissioner. Um, so in on a scenic road to me, you're putting in
that kind of fill with fencing, you're changing the character of the scenic road, right? And so whether cut and fill addresses scenic road differently and or proximity to a property line, that's kind of like
a retaining wall to me when you're when the way they did that. And so it's retaining wall 4x2 concrete blocks you'd see on the side of a highway. Yeah. I mean it might can't believe they did that on a scenic road. Yeah. And with no permit triggered. Yeah. So
I thought the uh cut and fill was a thousand cubic yards. That it triggered if you were bringing in over a thousand cubic yards, you need a special permit. And that happens a lot in especially on
scenic roads and in um historic neighborhoods because we're all on um septic. So we it happens a lot in my neighborhood and so um when a property sold um behind the
nursery and they were bringing in um they had to go through the ZBA to bring in over a thousand cubic yards to do a um raised septic system and it just has to get done. But my concern
was at the time that this ray septic system was literally feet from my property line and we had just spent a lot of money on a new drainage system.
And my concern was if the ZBA approved this raised septic system, how would it impact any properties downstream? And um that's a concern and they granted it and
a beautiful house was built. Um but they have a racist uh system that affects abudding um properties. I I have to go back. I'm not finding it. Um, so
right now, but I in one of my notes just quickly on this and you may want to talk move on to other things, but well, a couple of the things is that Joe Ponduct had said at the time that the by that bylaw our cut and fill is rarely used once or twice a year he had said
and it doesn't take into account the size of a lot. So if you had a 2 acre, 3 acre, 4 acre versus a quarter acre, the trigger is still the cubic yards. So obviously that's a lot different for a small lot than it is for a large lot.
And there was nothing that was requiring anything about a balance of cut and fill or net figures or anything. So, um, you know, I think again we I can dig through that my notes again and kind of put a summary together from where we got with it before.
And we had also talked about doing a like a sub commmittee on this because I think this will take some coordination. This will be something that's super important, but something that will need um input from ZBA, from you know, from
what we've seen here in the planning board and what a building commissioner would have to add. Um and then probably the DPW because of storm water. Yeah. Rags, right? Which brings me also to the stormwater rags because a lot of you
remember Walcott Woods a lot of that earth was disturbed up front in order to put in the storm water retention structures. So you're get you're having to do a lot of cut to put in the structures underneath which impacts trees too which we've u we've seen in
other projects. So would you and Maggie like to be a subcommittee? I know Sean you had said at one point you because you have expertise also from a construction standpoint. Um, but maybe you two take the lead or I don't would that
I'd be happy to I'd be happy to participate too. Or do you want to I mean I we can only have two. Um, no, my input is focused on one of the last paragraphs in it. So my So Sean maybe Yeah, Cheryl, we're shooting for the spring for this
or we shoot this would be for spring. For spring. Okay. Yeah. And I would I would think that the articles will probably be due in what? February for spring. Yeah. Yeah. It's time for that. Yeah. And the other thing is it's hard to measure. Um
I I believe it's a thousand cubic yards and it's usually 50 yards around a trailer. So it's the oversight of it that can be um challenging. Um counting all the trailers and counting a thousand cubic
yards to ensure that it's not in excess of enforcement. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a that part is a challenge. Yeah. Because I mean a site could be a balanced site, but that doesn't mean that you won't
have you won't have an export and an import and and you will still end up with a balanced site. You know, you may have organic material on the site that isn't, you know, can't be utilized for it gets a bit complicated. Yeah. I I I don't even know how we enforce it, but for some reason I feel like it's 800
yards, not a thousand, but I can't remember. But I'd be happy to work on it with Cheryl. And I'm thinking, you know, the the whole reason to address it is because of the site planning and the projects that we've re we review um
such as the memory care and we've got the subdivision on on Pleasant um you know I I think um some of the daycare facilities with the the large storm water retention
um necessitating site planning around these things, you know. So, I do think um having a the impact on the trees as well because
you know people I don't know how you you probably have heard too but the 40B on Brushill Road where they just kind came in and cut all the way into that hill and you know a lot of people don't like at least so far the way that's looking. Um, so
yeah, that was okay. Yeah, I think that's that that would be great. So that is one that we've earmarked that we definitely would like to. I know the the bed and um the um sorry Airbnb
short-term and Cheyenne, I know you had sent out a couple of those. Um but I I would like to look at those a little more closely and see if there's something that we could have a template that we could do. I don't know if we
could get it done by fall, but it's important with I think with the ADUs that that when those start to go into effect that we have something um was there something that's been worked on before?
We have not. Okay. So, um with it was from other towns what Cheyenne sent out. I see. Okay. So, we might need to recirculate those. Didn't Brian first do an article a few
years ago for Airbnbs? I That's why I was asking, but I don't recall. Um I'd have to go back and look through our records. Yeah. As I see Yeah. Today I did see You saw some You saw one? Okay. Um
because there is something that the building department refers to, but I didn't think it was a separate Airbnb. I'll have to read it. I just saw the title. Yeah, we can ask Walter White maybe check out um because there was there was um a complaint in East Milton
Square that one was being used for an Airbnb. Came to the office just tonight and told him that you guys are considering this and they're absolutely not allowed. So, so maybe there is something that did go through town meeting. Okay. So, we should find out about that.
Good. And I'll I'll talk to Jay. Jay's would know. Um, okay. And then the the other things on the list, how is it? Those are um housing production plan. We talked about how long would it take to do a housing
production plan? I understand that the select board is taking the lead on that and our because I think I watched a part of a meeting where they were discussing it. Is that right, Cheyenne?
Do you? did not hear us for their interviews. Last time we left off, we were still getting the um our consultant. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I misunderstood. And were you able to reach out to the person who did ours the last time?
Yes, we did. Um last time, the last update was from our last meeting and she said that she was interested. So Nick was contacting it. Okay. So that is in the work that's moving along. Al, so these were where we were talking about use of funds. Yeah, this was the funds use. Yeah, this
is a little different, but um yeah, the recotificate. Yeah, these aren't the the zoning articles that we Oh, we sign review bylaw. We did have that. I think these were general things that we were talking about. The recotification would
be a zoning um change, but again that's not something I I think that could get done for September. But I would love to see that get done for the spring. Yeah. What the seven say? What's number seven? Rules and
rules and rags. Um we were talking about reviewing those. Okay. I think that's a spring. Well, that doesn't have to go to town meeting. So that that's just our own work. That's our own work. Some of that though is I think with
coordination with DPW because we have this um in the rules and rags we have this uh road section. Find it here. And we've gr granted waiverss, you know,
for this many times because this is a 50- foot rideway um and requires sidewalks u on both sides and um yeah, there's just it hasn't been really updated or looked at in a long time. And
you know it requires granite curb and we've often done uh Cape Cod Burm and other um waivers other waivers and so like there's this is a marked up from August of 19 2019
has long been on people's radar but this is not just a planning board thing. I mean this is a DPW engineering um item and just like the storm water rags. So, should we prioritize what we think we can get done for fall? Like,
that's what I'm trying to do. So, um I think Airbnb is huge. And if we have something, we may already have something online review is the sign. Those two are the biggest. They're big. The 5G thing, which I, as I said before,
I didn't really know what that was, but you say that's practically done anyway. And can I just or Cheryl, do you want to mention what you drew to my attention that there's a public hearing on July 30th and do you
Yeah, it's on the This is This is why I'm worried about signage. It's like and this would be a special permit. It's going through the ZVA on this, but I think residents need to know because all of a sudden they say, "How did this something get approved?" And this is this is something
that's being proposed and part of yeah I don't know what we can do about things like this where it's operating under a variant that was granted in 1962 but 480 Adam Street which is where
in that mess I don't call it mess but you know between the roadways and the highway that commercial building that's actually in the residential district we talked about that with the East Milton overlay where Quantum hits Adams. Yeah, that building US trust I mean Rockland Trust.
Yes. So there's a proposal for a 16 ft by 16 1/2 ft illuminated channel letter sign to be installed um facing the highway for the applicant is the Russian School
of Mathematics. And um I I called Kathleen to ask if she was aware of this. Um she's not on the panel, but she did look it up. And so
there is a filing that if we wanted to look up and look at it, but there's no mockup. I do remember though. Sorry. Um it came before the committee, I believe, like a month ago. Okay. Okay. It was like a whole thing to
get them kind of where they are now. I think Okay. So, we have a meeting on July 24th. Mhm. Could we put on our agenda a discussion about that and then we could send the
ZBA our thoughts and let them know that we are in the process of reviewing our sign and it might be too premature for them to be granting anything at this point in time. Well, certainly we're illuminated signs are are becoming an issue. So
exter not internally illuminated I should say. Um not externally but and so one of the things about the signs I agree with you but I do think we still can do the traffic impact mitigation for the fall. Yeah. Yeah. I do too. But the signs when I um I called Tim
today I wanted to ask him what he recalled about what he had put together 10 years ago. and uh he said that the the business district signage was updated or amended rather in 2017, but
it didn't fully encompass some things like it did not ban billboards and neon. Mhm. Um and it did not address signs in the residential districts, which this one that we just spoke about is one of those. But you can think about their
nursery or Eagle Farm or Thomas or Nukem or I mean all a lot of businesses actually on Rand but in other places too the 7-Elevens they were all um residential there's no they end up having to go with what there's no zoning that addresses
them. Yeah. So I I think that we we would want to tie at at a minimum tie it to the business same thing that the businesses are so uh and it does break.
Um, and then the other thing Tim said is that um the the handbook um needs to have a better connection to the zoning because when someone's making a decision about approving these signs,
um you you have to have something that's defendable. According Tim said like town council can't defend, you know, there's not there's not enough here to defend, right? So that's another factor u to think about like
can you deny a sign based on what's in the current kind of and you can't and that's what that's the that's the problem is it has to be and then this was what so when Julia called me when she couldn't reach you I said this would be a good thing for everyone to have because this is what's
in the zoning the handbook and then Tim's Yeah. So I I know you ask me for this but thank you adding those. Yeah. So from a process it's um we've identified how many five or six
that we want by fall. No I think two by fall. We two by fall. Um and then um so should we assign it to that's what I was trying to think. Should we assign to your point of subcommittees subcommittees on these?
Yeah. So that's my point too about thinking about spring is it's going to take a lot longer. So we shouldn't wait two months to decide who's going to work on them because it'll creep up fast. And if it takes coordination with other boards and committees and staff, it takes time to get those meetings scheduled. I think we should try and say these are
our goals for the spring too and who's going to work on them. Yeah, great. Because um otherwise I think it'll be hard to meet our deadline. So what are we saying for the fall? What two sign bylaw? I think if if the sign can address both
business and residential or if it needs to be two separate. I think traffic impact mitigation just expanding it to make sure it covers the district all the districts. I think it was an oversight in terms of the language before.
So I think this what Tim drafted does address both residential and business. So when we go when we get to that. But um but I think those two would be good. And then the cut and fill for spring. The recottification
if we can do that for spring. I think the nursery farm nursery farm for spring since it's been on the list since 2018. And that's mostly I mean that's fairly easy the nursery farm because it's just getting um
state law state law. It's not necessarily changing anything. It's just becoming current um where's Airbnb? I think that's and we'll double check that to see what we already have. I'll I
can talk to I'll I'll talk to Jay and find out what he's referring to as saying you can't do an Airbnb because if he's saying it's not allowed and that's the official stance then maybe we don't need to create then it's not a priority. Yeah.
Okay. So fall assign review and cut and fill and recontification. The spring is cut and fill and reconification. I add in my notes that we had talked about scenic road updates.
Um and I don't remember exactly what we were thinking though. I think if you had we had a situation or two where applicants didn't know that they had to file for approvals and they removed
trees and stonewall sections in the public way on public right away. Right. Yeah. So I don't know if folks want to try and remember what the other thoughts about that were. Yeah. Do outreach on that.
And is the Shade Tree uh advisory committee, are they working on a tree bylaw? I feel like they've been working on one. I I think I've they may have. So, I could check. So, yeah. Would you follow up with them
on that? That would be great. And and we can find out from the tree warden when he's here on the 24th. I think that's a good We had talked about non-conforming businesses. I don't know if that's something we can tackle before the spring or not, but
yeah, that was mentioned. I think there's some interest in business tax revenue. So that could be part tied together. I think we certainly keep it on.
So, for signs, Meredith, you're interested in signs, right? Yes. And I'd love to go through this tonight just just if we could just quickly because we only have this meeting in the 24th really and
then if if we're going to do it and again I don't want it to feel rushed for people but um I think what was put together is there's some little things we could change but
do we know that some of whether what parts of this may have already been incorporated in 2017. This would be just replacing it all. So, it would be inclusive of and I'll and I'll cross reference. I'll I'll take
that on to to look at that um to see what was included in this and I so I can mark it um as what was updated. So, so when a business goes to apply for a sign, this is the packet they get. This
is correct. This what they get in the checklist. Yeah. That they follow. Yeah. So, this breaks out also. It's almost like our site plan review, but for signs, it gives a more complete this is what you need to bring. These are all
the tools. So Cheyenne, if you want to pull um up on the screen. So So Meredith, just quickly. Yeah. If you look at page five, the bottom, it says that this is replacing
basically. Yes. The business. It doesn't This doesn't mention that's mentioning only business district, right? It does reference um
signs and just yeah the following addition to with the following addition um because it does reference residential. I I was on this
number I don't have that. We want to make sure that um when we go through it. So I was looking at this one that has this is the front. Yeah. This one. That's the one which is the one that
the last updated August 3rd, 2015. Okay. Okay. It addresses. And one other thing Tim said when he when he did this was he had looked at signed bylaws in Lexington and Welssley
and other communities. So I guess what we we would need to do Meredith is to find all of the references to signage I guess. Yeah. because it's in the def like definitions would be a different part where you're a it says so here he's
saying you're amending the definition section which is part of the overall bylaw in the front and then this goes down further into signs and billboards and business
district right what's where's signs and billboards now you found that Julia here this Chapter 113. Okay. One. Yeah. Yeah. That's Do you have an extra one of these? Yes. So, we want We would want to make sure it's
Sorry. All included. I'll take a vote. I'll give it back to you one sec. Yeah. No, we'll probably keep that and then accessory residenc. Yeah. Okay. So, yes. So, I thought for just for
tonight to that we wouldn't spend time on the definitions because we can read those on our own and um but they're very specific. You know, I think they're they're good um as they relate to the changes
that would be or updates that would be made. So starting with like the five intent and purpose um I thought that intent and purpose was look good um pertinent to other laws the
purpose um interpretation and conflict clause severability clause so I didn't want to we can go through that on our own and maybe have comments on that but um getting into the applicability and then
the existing science so Starting on page seven, I thought we'd we could cruise through this um try to cruise through this quickly. Um and the way Tim had written this to break down um there's three types of existing signs. Um those
existing signs are those defined as erected before be our fall town meeting and are classified into four separate categories. These are conforming signs which comply with all provisions of this bylaw and its most recent amendment form.
Two prohibited signs as specified in section that needs to be filled in. non-conforming non-conforming signs which do not comply with one or more provisions of this bylaw in its form prior to the October
and press 2025 town meeting but which are not described as prohibited signs in subsection 8 and then non-conforming protected signs which fully complied with this bylaw prior to the amendments approved by the October 2015 meeting um
removal of existing signs So, I was mistaken when I said this is not retroactive cuz I wanted to make sure that it's any any sign that currently exists is grandfathered and does not need to be we wouldn't be asking anybody to take any signs down.
Um but these are when the removal of existing signs when non-conforming signs which are enlarged, rewarded, redesigned, replaced or altered in any way, including repainting in a different color or releting shall comply immediately with all provisions of this
bylaw and provided further that any such sign has deteriorated um to such an extent that the cost of restoration would exceed 35% of the replacement value in time. So that that seemed all fine. Um the building
commissioner, this um talks about the building commissioner as the authority shall order the removal of all any signs erected or maintained in violation of this bylaw. 14 days notice shall be notice in writing shall be given to the
owner of such sign or the building structure or premises in which the sign is located to remove the sign or to bring it in compliance with the with the bylaw. Abandonment or failure to maintain a sign. That seems um pretty
straightforward. Then sign permits. Um, the sign permit required. All persons uh desiring to erect, install, place, construct, alter, move, or maintain a sign shall apply to the building commissioner for a permit. Exempt signs
are excluded from this requirement. So, this is um what I thought was really good is the application submittal in content. So, it makes it really clear if somebody is wanting to put up a sign um what types what you need and and if you listen to the sign review committee um
John Ziggitz does a wonderful job of just walking through everything that's needed um when it's applied, if there's things that are missing like such as the material or the color of the signs, the type of illumination is required um to
be noted, number type, you know, size, height of sign, size of lettering. That's all things that um are asked for and those seem very straightforward and sort of pretty much what we do right now. Um for all signs, a copy of a
letter from the chairman of the sign review committee indicating the recommendation of the sign review committee. Can we can we back up? Yes, absolutely. um nonconforming signs and nonconforming protected signs. Um on page seven.
Mhm. Going back to the definitions and I don't see those being I I suppose non-conforming straightforward enough, but protected like is not defined. So like what's yeah that they would be protected what's protected like is it free speech
protection type signs like but it's not defined is protected yes so I think we would need to know what what that is okay good this up
right and all these dates would just need to be the new date Okay. And then I guess isn't that the definition right there? Non-conforming protected sides like number four. I take that as signs which fully complied with the bylaws prior to
the amendments approved by October 15. Right. So they're there's no need to change those signs. We're just sort of adopting them. Yeah. So isn't it so wouldn't that be the the definition? I mean I I don't I'm not looking for where are you looking what page are you looking on page?
existing signs. Number four, I mean it seems like one through four are all which fully complied with this bylaw definitions, right? Like a conforming sign is it doesn't say assign which but it should say conforming signs are signs which comply with all provisions of this bylaw in its most recently amended form.
I guess to me that makes sense. Okay, all four of those kind of make sense if you just put the word after number two prohibited signs are signs as specified in section. It just seems like it it's missing one little phrase.
Might rather than number three, you're thinking more. Well, I'm looking at conforming sign and it says it complies with all the provisions of the bylaw. And then I look at non-conforming. It says it's fully complies with the bylaw,
but there's no amendments that have been I guess I'm not quite understanding prior to the amendments approved because we don't have any amendments yet, right? So I guess I think that's the idea. If there's a non-con if there's a sign that kind of
meets the criteria before October 15th, it's non-conforming protected. So there's no need to change it. That's the way I take that. But is it protected to is protected mean that if they want to change it in the future, they get to keep it the what they had before? Like if I look down to
the existing sign, it says removal existing signs, but it also says enlarged, rewarded, redesigned or altered. So that's not really replacing. So when they like if you non-conforming signs which are enlarged,
rewarded or altered. So is it protected if it's not if it's before if you're replacing if you're rewarding it and it's not or if you're going to redesign it if you re that's more than 35% that's what too if it is just
but is isn't that the reference to um that section 8 you know when you turn to it there's a category of signs that are called exempt signs are exempt signs and protected signs referring to the same type of sign Which page are you looking at Sean?
14. Yeah. When you get exempt signs are a type of sign and prohibited reads, the following sign shall be allowed by right without the necessity of a sign permit. Is that
is that a non-conforming protected sign? An ex? Yeah, exempted signs are different than prohibited signs if you turn the page. Yeah, you could. Right. So, there's a category of that
defines prohibited signs. I take the exempted signs to be like a handicap bathroom sign or exit sign or street. It gets into the detail. Long description of what an exempt sign is. Oh, you're right. It goes all the way 15. Wow.
Holiday decorations. And some of this came about d to there was the reason some of this didn't get changed back then is there was a a a case before the Supreme Court about what's protected under free speech. That's kind of what I was thinking when I said
the pro what this protected mean. And maybe this is where it defines it. But so what is the history of this? This is this is noted as proposed zoning back in October 2015 10 years ago. Did it not get
it? Never it never Tim left. That's when he went left. But there was a 2015. That's 10 years ago. Tim wasn't. No, he was assistant planner. Then he left. He was assistant town planner. But what happened was this this case. And so, um, there was when Alex Wesai
was still on the board that there was this I sense that there was only so much you could do with changing the signage requirements until that case was decided. And that's why there was a limited amendment that went forward in 2017.
Um and then I think there was it never once that case was decided it never got revisited and never got moved forward with the change in personnel but that's why it didn't happen in that at this
2015. Oh, that makes Yeah. But I think that the I the there is a certain class of signs that are considered protected, but not this type that we're trying to regulate here. And I think that's that's where a town
council or someone should take a look at this and make sure that it's consistent with that with that law. And can the so protected the way that I look at it is a protected sign is the free speech sign. And can those
protected signs be limited in size? Is do we have the ability to do that? I know that businesses aren't business signs advertising and commercial use are not considered protected. Right. But the
as far as the size there was like there's I don't remember now Maggie but there was it was surprising that really there was you could put something up like in your yard that was you know pretty visible and you know like decrying some whatever
issue that you the person was concerned about and that's considered protected but it's not advertising business. Yeah. Right. So, you know, I'm not saying we I think every I believe in free speech and so um my questions are
just is it the size of the sign related to like the size of the building or the that's what's in here. Yeah. Size of the lot. So, it describes it. So, I think so even if it's a protected use, a protected sign, there's a limit to the size.
There's a limit to the size. Yeah. And I I had interpreted protected as to be it's protected meaning that you can maintain that sign um because it was approved.
Well, no. Yeah. Protected. It it's protected if it was before October 2025, we'll say. But if you go and change it, that non-conforming, it's sort of like if you take a house that is a
non-conforming resident, single family home, and you tear that down or a garage, you're now prone. Now you have to follow the current zoning that may not have been in place when when that house was built. So like I always go back to mine. I've
taken down a sign because it was in disrepair. I've also had a sign hit on Route 28 and I haven't replaced that yet. So now Emma and those were um grandfathered in.
Were those special permit were those special permit those signs? Um, no, no, because the selectment at the t time can give um they do the well they sign permits and so we got a sign out on route 28 through
that simple process you know forever ago right 50 years ago right um and it gets hit by the plow so it's just so that would you would you know go before the sign review committee who
would Yeah. I don't know if I I think you would if it's take it down. Yeah. Don't put it back up and then you want to put it back up in a certain amount of time. I think you'd have to go before the sign review committee and that seems like that would be protected.
But I'm I'm Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. If you take it down and put it back up, you it might um I know like St. Michael's church just went they're going to put up a new sign they and changing
color and they just went through the sign review committee everything you know that's surprising really because I would think that they're um I don't they're protected that's I know I was but they did go before sign review committee so those are all
yeah we'll have to define I I guess what what protected is and what exempt is yeah I just it's not clear to me yet but I I can I need to continue looking at the question and that's why this is this is to sort of filter out some of those
things that we want to identify with removing of his existing signs. Um and then okay so the application and submittal and content I think that's really
helpful to applicants again like our site plan approval um the following attachments necessary copy should be so one of the things yeah so I just wanted to bring back memories of looking at this years ago this is I don't know if my brain works that well
anymore for 10 years But yes, um, does this did this require some kind of visualization on the building of the sign on the building because it says color photographs of the property,
but now it's it's pretty common with technology that's available to do a simulation of the signage on the building. and they've been doing I've noticed that I think that should be a requirement if it's not good because I um I've been noticing the applicants are
doing that so it might apparently they haven't for that big one on yeah that yeah I don't um size dimensional drawing lettering words so how would you how would you word that
um I'll come up with something color photographs of the property and under yeah somewhere under there. I would say some kind of a visualization or mockup. Um could that would be under four maybe added to that.
Yeah, I would add a a separate line there visualization which would you know in um show the the sign in um three-dimensionally
on the on a photograph or a rendering to scale or something like that, you know. So it's not just Yeah, a hand scribble the building. Okay, we'll work on that. Okay.
Um, let's see. So, can we just go through that list again? So the purpose the dimensions and so did they give there was not a we haven't gotten to a size limit yet right that's coming.
Yeah that's coming okay but the um I I did think as a under um sex appropriate fees as set from time to time by the board of selectmen. I feel like that should be the building commissioner
because they typically set the fees because they're applying the following attachments and necessary copies as required by the building commissioner shall be submitted. That's a question for the select board. Maybe Nick, I don't know because I don't think they
when they apply I don't know who gets those fees currently. So I can ask John too. um the building department. Um and then
the town shall process sign permit applications within 30 days. um a receipt of complete and accurate application by the building commissioner on the color photographs that should be um and there should be renderings for new construction
because this is assuming the signs are all on existing buildings. Isn't that in three such drawings shall be to a legible architect scale? I'm thinking that that's like elevations. Okay. So
photograph of the facade. Um I'm thinking threedimensional, right? Not two-dimensional, right? Threedimensional rendering on the building visualized on the building. Because I kind of thinking that the way I read those above, I read those as
two-dimensional because when you say to an architect's scale, normally you're talking about a two-dimensional drawing, right? So, I just think it's good to be explicit that we also require three. That's a good point because it the depth
and width Okay. Anything else from that? And again, this is so now the way it works if is if the building commissioner rejects a sign application, it goes to the either the
board of appeal or select board. Do we know? I think the building commissioner refers it to the to sign review committee. Okay. Is how it's so the selectman only have review over list signs. Is that their um
an appeal actually? So if they get denied too, right? So that if they get denied at the sign review committee, which for example, the digital billboard for um the fitness center, which started
off as the sleepy's mattress sign um on the expressway, that was an appeal that was um granted by the select board. It was um they went and appealed it. They were denied. And now that applicant comes
back every year and the sign review committee denies them every year. So they just haven't changed it. It's it's like caught in this cycle, but they're grandfathered in. They would be able to keep that sign. But um not that I want to take on more work,
but do you think the select board's the appropriate um board to hear um these? Well, that's what I'm going to get to. I was thinking we should it would be the ZBA might be the better um path forward for appeal.
Well, you would have to have a public hearing. Um I mean it could come back to us. The selectman normally don't have public hearings. So I would think that the neighbors would want to say usually an appeal would go to the board
of appeals. That's what I would think. I I would think that's where it would go. That's what I was think that's what I was going to recommend when we get to that point on the authority as far as like the design like if there's a project that's subject to our
review like commercial buildings over 60 600 feet or these others right we do provide some feedback on signage right but they still have to go through their their signage the signage review package um
so do we when those come in though like is there anything about those kind of signs like for the memory care facility contemplated in here? Do we know um Meredith like I don't it talks about types of signs. If we go
back for a moment to what's well maybe it's going to go going forward there'll be types of signs but there was for types of signs. The submission requirements are different for standing signs versus
um um you know an awning or some or a wall mount sign. I think it does get into that a little bit. It talks about protruding signs or different but I'm thinking those I forget what they're called now but the kind like at the memory care facility where it's out
in the landscape. There's a there's a term for that kind of sign. I'm just not remembering it. But does that do you remember if that's in here? Because it talks about setback. It it talks about size. Um I think when we get Yeah. Um so time limit.
Yes. Oh yes, Kathleen. Yeah. Welcome Kathleen. Yes. Hi, I just um on the sign thing I just wanted to say that the part of process is that if you get denied by the
building commissioner goes to the board of appeals um not to the select board not to the sign committee um as I said it's an appeal of a denial of the building permit so that's the nor that's the process for
it no jurisdiction of the planning board for the denial. I mean, any denial of a building permit for anything um goes to the board of appeals, not the planning board, right? No, I think what's happened is it goes to the the sign review committee
and then if they deny a sign that has been going to the select board, but if it's a special permit such as the one that's being proposed on the 30th, it was a it's under a special permit because it's a resident it's a business
in a residential district. So, it's under the business itself is under a special permit. Um I don't think that's how it's coming to us, but um um you know, as I said because there's already there's already
signs on that building. Um yeah, we did we did hear the one for the Heart Dental. That was one that that I was that I sat on. Um Rockland Trust, I think they just switched out the the the writing from Blue Hill Bank or whatever
that was before. Um, so I don't think that went anywhere. But this is a new sign on the north side of the building, right? So they applied for a building permit to, you know, they applied to install it and that was denied and they were told they had to come to us. So that's how
that process happened. Yeah. To go off the I don't know if this committ or the select board. Yeah. there have been so it came before the sign review committee um okay
and originally it had the whole thing had started a couple years back with the heart dental and I guess they had got rejected had to go to the select board got it appealed um and then accepted and so we had actually been like working with the building owners because they're now letting other residents put up signs
but because there was like this initial agreement where there could only be one sign we had them actually come to a sign review meeting with the Russian school of mathematics applicants. Yeah. Um to kind of appeal their sign review decision. So where we had left it was that the entire building owner was
supposed to get that denial built before ZBA um and kind of open it up so that we could get the Russian school to get their sign up there. So the Russian school itself was approved, but we needed to deny it to open it up to get them on there. Oh, okay.
But I just wanted to sort of go to Maggie's comment about the fact that, you know, we have a process and you can't we can't delay things because the planning board might want to reduce we might want to revise the sign committee when we have boards of appeals have specific time frames by which they have
to make their decisions, hold their hold their hearings, make decisions. And so we can't, you know, postpone that um while you folks work on a on a new signed bylaw. No, we're that's wouldn't be the case that Yeah,
we're that that all is going forward and the and the sign review committee is not being changed at all. Although in this I think it says there's four members and I believe there's five um which Tim or planning staff sits in on. Um so that it doesn't affect wouldn't change that at
all. Yeah. According to um section 275-3.3 um three Mhm. Business District uses section four. It says appeal to select
board, an applicant, planning board, plan review committee, or person agrieved by a permit issued by the building commissioner or denial of a permit may appeal to the select board in the same manner as an appeal from an enforcement order of the building
commissioner may be taken to the board of appeals. The select board shall establish specific procedures for such appeals. In the event of an appeal, the building commissioner after consultation with the sign review committee may authorize tempor temporary advertising
signs during continuence of an appeal. So that's in the existing zoning and I think it should go to the ZBA. I don't necessarily feel like the planning board needs to hear that. Um but that this language would be replaced by what we're reviewing right now
tonight. Right. So yeah, I don't see how you folks have jurisdictions over fine is all I'm trying to say. So I mean on a project that you've already got before you, you know, for a building and that sort of thing, you know, yes, you're sort of doing a, you know, a
brand new building, you would be controlling the some part of the signs, but I don't think that you've got jurisdiction over, you know, this type of situation. Well, I don't think we have it over an in appeal. That's not that's not what
Yeah, that that's not so we were just actually I think Kathleen thinking about whether this makes sense for it to be appealed to the select board rather than the board of appeal and on a sign. Um I don't know how the select board has
a has the ability to um seek relief from a zoning bylaw, right? I mean by I don't know how the select board can do that. All right. So you agree that she go to the board of appeal? Yeah, because in the bylaw right now it's an accessory use, right?
So we we do agree on that with you on that. Okay. Thank you, Kathleen. Sorry. That's all right. Thank you very much because that's it's helpful. It is helpful. Okay.
All right. Um so we were application. So, I was looking at design review and it says all signs requiring a signed permit or special permit under the provisions of the section shall require the review of the sign review committee. So, do you recall
seeing where it says a signed permit's required? There is um language. Yes. Okay. And there's authority for the permit. Yeah. So, that's so application rejection. Um Okay. What page you want now?
10. 10. So F permit revocation. So that's the building commissioner there. Expiration date. Um penalties.
This is where I also thought this should be the building department. Um fines that establish I don't know that the the board of selectman want to establish fines. That seems like that's more
in the building department. Shouldn't there be a predetermined um chart of fine of fines? We could because I had a situation. How are the
Yeah. How are they? How do how does the building department It's um um and I was not happy with the way that my fine was determined by the building inspector. He when after we got our special permit,
we were in the process of installing our drainage system and we were fined by the building inspector because we started our machine 15
minutes before. That fine was $1,000. I got fined for a failure to notify. That was fine by $1,000. and I had a fine of a truck being on the property, which was a fine of $1,000.
The original fine was $5,000 per offense. I had to hire a lawyer. The lawyer had to talk to town council and we negotiated it down to $1,000 per offense. And so
there should be consistency with fines consistency and there should be um a chart question like a schedule of fines like a schedule of fines and and um so I I think that has to
we should find out more. So, but I do think I don't I don't think necessarily the select men want to the select board, you know, um want to take that on, but we
can talk to the building department to see if that would make sense. Um, all signs requiring a signed permit or special permit under the provisions. So signed permit under the provisions of this section shall require the review of
the sign review committee. So the sign review committee shall be appointed by the board of selectman. That's how we do it now on an annual basis. The committee will have this has four members. One of whom is the director of planning and
community development. Um and others who whom are residents or owners of businesses within the town. At least one member shall be an architect, urban designer or planner, which is the case on that board. The member shall choose the chairman annually. The committee
shall act as an advisory board according to the requirements of the section. So that this all seems this process section C um is consistent with how they're operating at this point. Um so I don't
think there was nothing there that needed to be changed. um criteria criteria for review. Um these are all again I think what is currently how it's operating with the sign review committee's review and advisory
recommendation of proposed sign shall be based on the following. They're listing those um number two the sign handbook to be updated from time to time by the board of selectmen. So why why would they be the ones updating it? That's what I I That was
one of the Before you get to that on number C3, um I'm wondering who is the advisory recommendation to? Is it to the select board? Is it to the building commissioner?
It says it's advisory. So the building commissioner is granting the permit, right? So I do think that is a difference in here that we would want to correct. I don't think they're they make an advisory. And Cheyenne, you might want to add to this. They make the decision,
I believe, or or are they making a recommendation to the building inspector? So, kind of both like they all go around and approve it to someone and then the chair writes an approval and they send it off the building um commissioner
to the building commission. I think they take Yeah. Yeah. Approval and recommendation. Great. Okay. So, the guide book should be updated by the sign review committee at least as a
recommendation. And maybe um it seems to me personally I think like you know where these go on buildings and so forth is sort of tied to design guidelines like we have in our business districts. Not just sort of is. So it
seems like any update to this should be consistent with those design guidelines in Milton Village and maybe that we should be well they can make the recommendation but we should review it. I just think we should have a review in it because of
the design guidelines, right? And we also want to make sure it's tied to the zoning, right? So, it needs to so because it needs to be tied to the zoning, you know, maybe it's the the the sign review committee in conjunction with the
planning board or advisory to the planning board. It's just again I'm not sure where the board of selectmen role in here makes the most sense because they're not really reviewing. That's what I hadations for projects in these districts. Maybe the planning board and the sign review committee.
Um cuz once these all all these reference to the board of selectment should be changed to select board anyway. Yeah, I'm just reading from them but it really should change. So considerations of how proposed signs
related context of the facade of the building, buildings in the immediate vicinity to the sign, the basic pattern of the street front to which the sign is oriented, the sign brightness, style, height and colors and other pertinent structures and elements, the medinity.
It goes on to um to say a actually a lot of this is in our site plan review process too. Um reflect the character of the building to which is it attached or associated with which is also sort of in the handbook displaying graphic symbols
which are legible to both vehicle operators and pedestrians. So all of that um and the recommendation the sign review committee's advisory recommendation shall take one of the following of forms. So I think here we could add that it
needs to somehow consider the um design guidelines when located within districts that have design guidelines because it might not be in their handbook. It's in our design guidelines.
That's true. That's so do we need this if we have design guidelines? Can we try to simplify the process? No, because there's so many signs that aren't in that are in places that don't have guidelines. Yeah, that's why I think we say in or just copy the language to make it
consistent or say refer refer to yeah I would say where it says here on page 11 cons that the consideration of how the proposed
sign relates to and the first or I mean, we could put the first bullet point is design guidelines um for those signs located within overlay districts for which there exist design guidelines or something like
that. Mhm. Are we are we saying that in any district where there are design guidelines, the design guidelines if there are a conflict supersede? I'm just saying that they should consider them here. I I I think we could leave it to the
review of the sign review committee honestly, but um because there only guidelines there. If you're an applicant and there's a conflict which is which is the governing document. Yeah. I think I think this
governs I think the sign review governs ours are suggestions this will be but it's this gives them the authority to consider that as part of their overall consideration because I think there's different things that they
consider when they're looking at the signage you know challenges that a an owner store owner might have on what type of sign. Um, so Cheryl, do you can you say that again or Well, I'm just thinking so consideration of how the proposed sign relates to
requirements or maybe it's not requirements. It's um I'm trying to think of the right word, but let me just use requirements for the moment. Requirements contain within design guidelines at
locations for which they exist or something like that. I mean it can be improved but I'm trying to All right, let's think about that language requirements. So it it needs to consider those design guidelines like principles instead of requirements.
Do you remember how they're phrased in the design guidelines? Um I just say how it relates to the design guidelines. Criteria or how it relates to criteria for design guidelines. Criteria. Okay.
Criteria for design guidelines within districts provided. Let's just this as an applicant. This is kind of um 22 pages, right? Yeah. Plus a handbook, right? Right. The handbook's actually helpful. I like
it. Yeah. It's a lot here for a It's a lot for just a regular person like myself. Yeah. But this, if you look, if you read this, anything in our current zoning is even for professionals is difficult. Uh I
stopped into the building department last week to talk to them about um something and I said um you know we'd like to we're the board's talking about codification and they said
how much they would support that. They I said it's confusing and they said you don't need to tell us basically right and they get calls from architects all the time who are trying to who are used to reading these things you know zoning and trying to design to towards it and
ours is to is so confusing that you know professionals who deal with this every day are having to you know look for the interpretation of the local official because that's who gets to make the decision but it should be better than that. So Meredith I think just put something
in like we talked about and we can think about yeah fine-tuning of that language right okay all right so recommendation so this is just the process the the different um forms um the recommendation
that this sign review committee will make and then the appeal and special permits right of appeal any applicant um for a signed permit any person who has been ordered by the building commissioner to incur expense in connection and any person dissatisfied
with any refusal order or decision of the building inspector and this is what's happened I think what um this says may appeal to the board of selectmen so we're changing ZVA within Yep within 20 days from the date of which refusal
order a decision after notice given to the public and abuing property owners and or residents the ZBA I think should should hold a public hearing. Applying the standards in subsection 6D, the board shall affirm, enull, or modify
such refusal. Da da. The action of the building commissioner may be enulled or modified only by a maturity of decision of the and I would put in ZBA board again. Um, the action of the commissioner is modified or anelled. If
if the action is enelled, the building commissioner shall issue sign permit in order in accordance with the decision of the board. So um so then again the next one the special permit granting authority
I changed the ZBA I put the ZVA yeah shall serve as the special permit granting authority for all special permits and signs and shall consider request for special permits in accordance with the section in section D okay circumstances in which a special
permit may be sought um special permits may be considered ed um and issued for any request for relief of the requirements of this section. However, special permits may not be issued to allow those signs indicated in section A. And those are the those
prohibited the prohibited signs. Um I would change again any permit ZBA all the select board ZBA language here. Um and I didn't have and then under required findings I just changed that
language also to ZBA. Someone found where their grant required by it. So there is a design review um size shape um design review prior to granting of a special permit by the ZBA. The sign re it would be sign ZBA. The
signed review committee shall submit an advisory recommendation on the special permit to the board and that would be to the ZBA. Such recommendations shall address compliance of the sign with subsection 6E. An unfavorable report of the sign
review committee shall indicate which of the findings were not met and shall state what modifications to the sign or signs could be made to render a favorable report. Failure of the sign review committee to make such a report within 30 days from the date of the
submission of the application materials to the sign review committee shall be deemed by the ZBA to constitute a favorable report. Okay. So now um this is the exempt signs.
So these seemed pretty straightforward. Um except for on the language um on under eight that would be signs located on property owned by the town.
Um oh I guess that should stay the the board of selectment the select board probably. But we should all of these change to select board. and great um signs sanctioned by the town
um of Milton Historical Commission which display historic information about the building's property not exceeding those are just the historic plaques um those are um the historical commission doesn't have any jurisdiction over any we don't
have local historic districts. So, um the commission does not have any say on those. So, these are all the exempt. Then you get down to the prohibited signs. Um just under 10 there. Um
signs within the town's right of way should be the select board also. So, they have board selectment in here, but I think that should stay select board, right? What number was that? I'm sorry. On 10 on page Oh, yeah. Yep. 15. Yeah. But that should be select board and and right below it, too.
Mhm. So, select board. Okay. All right. So, one. So, two. I wasn't sure what Tim meant by this. Um, any new or existing sign not erected pursuant to
and in accordance with the requirements of this bylaw. Period. Any new existing? Um, are you in the prohibited? Prohibited saying you can't erect a sign on your own.
That's why I read that. Okay. And then says C um blank for guidance on non-conforming signs. So that would be section goes back to where he he had something in here for non-conforming signs, right?
But we'll have to look at that section. Okay. So, it seems to me they're prohibited as new signs, but there are the ones that were predating this bylaw, right? Mhm.
So, it would be section four. One, two, three, and four. Is that the 4 A for just existing 4A? I'm sorry. Yeah. C4 A. Okay. Um, signs which incorporate any manner flashing, moving or intermittent
intermittent lighting excluding public service signs showing excluding public service signs showing time and temperature. These uh include promotional beacons, laser lights or images. um wind signs including banners,
pennants, spinners, streamers, and other wind actuated components. Mechanically activated signs other than rotating barber poles, which I don't think we have any more of those. Sadly, I know. I love them. I know.
Um any sign which advertises or calls attention to any products, businesses, or activities which are no longer sold. That's just a typo there. Which are not longer sold. Yes, that's what I was like with that. Um, no longer sold or carried on at any
particular premises. Um, particular, it should be premise, not premises. If it's particular, right? At any particular premise. Yeah. No s. Um, no such sign shall remain in
place or vacated or vacated premises for more than um or maybe it is premises. I have to double check that now I'm questioning myself. Um, vacated premises for more than 90
days from the date of the vacancy commenced. um portable signs except for sidewalks. Sidewalk signs as defined in section um to look at that where that was of this bylaw not permanently affixed, anchored or secured to the ground or
structure on the lot it occupies. um signs advertising businesses, services or activities located at different premises from at different premises from the premises on which the sign is located except street banners
permitted by the board of selectmen which would be approved. That is that type of banner you I'm thinking of um all the uh veterans banners that are up right now.
So I think that is a select board. So that should just be changed to select board. Um as defined in section 8A window signs which cover more than 25% of the window or which obstruct the middle third of
the window or door such that eyele view through the window is blocked. Uh signs erected so as to obstruct any door, window or fire escape on a building. Signs constructed, erected, or maintained on the roof of a building or
which extend above the roof plate line. Signs in the rightway other than those belonging to a government, public service agency, or railroad. Signs which are pasted, attached, mounted, or located on a tree, utility pole, fence,
or structures such as an overpass, ad bridges, or other similar structure. Signs posted or attached to other signs are prohibited unless such sub subsidiary portions are an integral part of the total uh sign design.
Signs not in good repair, in violation codes or containing or exhibiting broken panels, visible rust, visible rot, damage support structures or missing letters. Um, this is where the height comes in. Maggie, you were asking about this, the
measurement of the sign area. Um, that's included in here. Measurement of sign height, ground signs, building signs, um, location, structure, and design standards. So, this is what you were ground signs
was. I don't know if this would be um what you were referring to. Unless more restrictive setback is specified. Otherwise, in the section, all ground signs, whether permanent or temporary, shall be set back at least 15 ft from the nearest property line, whether or
not said line abuts a public or private streetway. Which one where are you reading from? Sorry, I I'm on 10 now. On which page though? On 17. So, um where's the the square footage calculation? It says the measurement. So
that's actually Yeah, there is coming a um Okay, it comes a little bit later. Can we put it here? Yes. So that so we don't have to be um flipping back and forth. That's my biggest pet peeve on these documents. I just would like
Well, that's one thing because he has Tim did illum prohibited illumination in an illumination section, but it's not in the prohibited section. So that should be moved. Um all right. Well, let's just keep going, I guess. Yeah. And then we'll Yeah, because I
think there will be some things to move. Um, so measurement, sign area, structure, generally structure, ground signs, set back, um, corner clearance,
right away. Um, so the Sorry, I'm back on the set back on the ground signs. Yeah. Um 15 ft. Is that what we've approved? Or in are some of our memory care and daycare
facilities, have they been 15 ft back? I never paid attention to it to be honest with you. Just like just thinking like we should think we should look at it just to see if that's the right we should number or they're going to be looking at some variances or appeals.
Yeah. Because there could be things like I'm thinking about when the the hospice was installed. That's I don't think that's 15. Maybe it is, but I don't know if that's 15. 15 maybe roughly
um memory clinic couldn't go back any further because of the wetlands. I think that was right on the curb cut almost. I think we should take a look at what those couple that we've approved that haven't filed for their signage yet. probably and if this would impact them.
Mhm. Um yeah, good. Corner clearance right away. No sign or part thereof. Um way compliance with building code
maintenance installation surface fitting. Well the installation nonp painted or posted directly on the exterior wall. Um, you know, there's historically their signs were painted on to the sides of
walls and you still see them as a historic feature in some buildings. So, um, I guess I I I wonder if that's a good requirement. Well, I think where we see them in our
business districts, like if you think about Abby Park has the mural on the side that's painted directly onto the I don't know if that's considered a sign or or art or something else, but if what if they wanted to put Abby Park as a there on that as part of that there
there is a certain style of the Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, it makes sense. some of the old mill buildings, but and whether that would make sense in Milton Village, for example, um actually, was too Elliot going to put a
mural behind where the parking was? Mhm. Wasn't that part of his rendering? Yeah. Which is which I'm okay with, but to your point, is that a considered a sign though? I don't That's more of a I would say a piece like artwork and I think of Abby
Park as being artwork, but you're right. Like what if they wanted to paint Abby Park on like in a certain style? It would be a shame to send the message that we don't want that. Yeah, I don't think that would be considered a sign though. Okay. Well, it I think it'd be worth going
back to look what you like you suggested, Jim, at what was proposed for two Elliott because I can see like the web mill building, but if they did the brew pub that they're talking about doing something on the side of one of those buildings and having it be considered signage
um and it would be appropriate there. Yeah, especially if it's not facing the street. What does it matter? It just says on any wall, but if it's a wall on
a alleyway, right? What would be the um in many uh historic brick buildings, you'll find old faded ones. Mhm. They're the coolest.
So maybe we take out that first line and just have all signs must be painted, posted, or otherwise securely attached. Yeah. But then you're also must repeat to an intermediary. It's a removable
surface is what you're saying. I think you could say um sign I don't think you can take it out entirely without revising the second sentence, but what you could say is um
without express approval or something because you'd want it to be reviewed on for the circumstances. So you're calling attention to it may or may not be approved. I don't know if that's the right
language, but I like where you're going with it, though. Or signs. Say that because you could say signs may be painted. Um, so sign shall be painted unless unless approved.
I said without express approval, which um without express approval? Yeah. by the sign review committee, right? Yeah. I I think I think what Tim was writing is to protect against,
you know, a rash of painted or applied signs, you know, because there are some locations where it is probably really attractive and nice to have, but there's more locations that you don't want that. Well, do you think this covers the protection of it? I think
Yeah, I'm not sure. I just feel like we should definitely protect against that, you know. Yeah, I think I kind of think of as part of the overall design package, you know? So, it needs to be looked at in the context of what's being proposed. So like what's appropriate let's say for the two Elliot would be different than
what would be appropriate for let's just say the Masonic building for example um or for something on high street you know it's like and would that painting have to go to the um historical society
no they could just paint on any old outside old building and ruin we don't have a jurisdiction or yeah, we wouldn't. It's not a local historic district, so we don't have
So, I don't think I've ever seen a mural, excuse me, on an old on anything other than an old brick brick building. I've never seen it on clapboards or shingle or anything, you know? It's like it's just fitting to something old like to Elliot. Yeah, we don't have that many buildings
that it would be fitting for. You know, we have some few. Yeah. Okay. I like the I like the Cheryl what Cheryl added to that. Um and I think what you could do is you
can have their handbook be more explicit about it like where it's appropriate, what type of application. Um because I just looked through it now, I don't see it addressed in there right now.
Okay. Um, so 19 and we can just try to move through this quickly because I don't want to keep us too late. We have a couple of other things and if we want to break at any time, tell me. Um, but the illumination permitted um
externally illuminated signs. Signs may be externally illuminated by white steady stationary light shielded and directed downward solely at the sign. Reverse lit signs. signs may be reverse lit illuminated by white light only.
And I'm trying to think of what that looks like. Cheryl, do you what comes to mind when you reverse lit would be something where it's like lit from the behind. So let's just say like letters were cut out and you had like an white acrylic behind it and then there's light within it
or a channel letter which has an acrylic and then the lights behind it. That's the way I understand. Is that the hospice? hospice have that? I'm not sure. I'd have to go take a look. Yeah, I'd be curious to see an example. Um then prohibited
the following types of illumination shall be prohibited except as may be permitted by the issue issuance of a special permit. Um so this is saying internally illuminated signs. So this is what's in conflict. This is
some um because it's all it's what it says earlier is a special permit um can be given except for the except for what is prohibited. So maybe we need to take take out this
prohibited section here and just I'd put them in put these in in a special permit category. Ex not not a prohibited but a special permit, right? Well, I think we want it I think I think we want these in this in
the um prohibited section because then the special permit section refers to except for the prohibited. So it means so you can't the the special permit there's
a list of things that they can't um give permits to um just about everything they can and except for the in that prohibited section that's what's referred to. So I
I guess I don't understand why certain signs might be allowed by special permit and that's what this says. But prohibited and special permit seem like different terms to me. Like prohibited would mean to me like you
don't get a special permit. Nobody gets it. Nobody gets it. That's what that's what that's what we want. That's what we want because that's what we're getting right now is and we don't have anything eternally illuminated signs though aren't in my mind aren't necessarily all
bad for all circumstances. I think we need to look at what some of these are. So like I'll like Santandere we're starting to see them like and people the Santandere sign which East Milton Square residents
really don't like. I guess I'd have to see what is so bad. Um, why is a reverse lit sign? That's what I want. But an internally limited sign is not a
lot of well if you look at a lot of this what this whole thing is is set up for like East Milton Square but it's not like contemplating the kinds of signs that you see in other places like what about the gas stations
what about the um you know like the memory care it's like if I look through this guide book there's nothing about ground mounted signs or something where you're having to mount it not on a building um face,
but it does have this rock. But, you know, I I think we it needs to think a little bit more comprehensively about all the types of signs that there are, right? and not just the ones that are
mounted to historic you know frame. So I think it what happens is so Welssley for example does not allow any illuminated signs. I was listening and it goes through their planning board and they had a gas station somebody was
asking for a new sign and they did not even allow uplit light. They had to have down lit lights but no illuminated signs. And it changes the look of a town when you start seeing internally illuminated signs all over. It just it's
a it's a very different look when you drive through. And that's why you drive through like Andover Center and you see the Santandere Bank with gooseeneck lighting and now Milton we have this huge big internally illuminated plastic
sign and it's a different it's a difference of a look. Um and it's being sensitive I think to the historic character of the town if we can not have those. What um what just has it was very controversial was one of the gas station
signs um that that on the um on the Basset Street side of the um that gas station did the pricing in the LA the electronic um and it's on here and
now the new g the gas station um on across the street um is now they have just requested one and they've been granted approval for and they're going to be going up. They're going to put a new sign up and they're putting these um
it's the LED price signs. So, they're the really bright price signs and it's, you know, when one when one sign it's like, okay, is that so bad? It's when you start seeing all of a sudden and once you, you know, are allowing them,
you're going to have others and say, well, this is fine. This is, you know, I know because as business, as a business owner, you get a little annoyed because the sign review, you see that other people are allowed to do things and there's no enforcement and it really is very annoying. So, the sign the sign review committee
is put in a difficult position where they've now been recently approving more internally lit signs and I it's just it changes the look of a of a business district um to do that. And so
that's why internally illuminated open face channel letters, signs fabricated with letters, numbers, designs or images consisting of an exposed or visible light source emitted from the face of a sign including but not limited to incandescent and fluorescent bulbs, LED
price signs, LED and digital displays, and neon tubes. I think once we get public with this, we're going to need some photographs of the kinds of signs we're talking about here. Um, and I think we should have those sooner
rather than later. So, if people can get out and take a look at these things that if anybody can photograph them at night because you're right. I think that's this is a whole class of sign and you know maybe some of them make more sense
like a large sign on a gas station you don't want a certain type but on a different kind of building or even on the ground mounted sign it might be okay to have the type I mean this is prohibiting a whole class of sign and I just think we want to make sure we
understand what we're doing here and is it by height because no um so the one the gas stations they're being are they asking for you know a 40 foot um well you'll see we will get to that
there is a height limit on sign when we get in into the business uses because again maybe I'm dating myself but I love like an old gas station sign lit up you know just like my favorite sign in
the whole of Milton is the um Pepsi sign. I love it when they lit it up. Light it up in the fall and that's an illuminate. So if if it's an old school style like old Yeah. then I like a vintage style and to your
point because it is a historic um a historic railway village or Milton village. So if the sign is of a certain um vintage vintage then I think that should be okay. Yeah. Perhaps like the Walter Baker chocolate, you
know, that's iconic, you know. That's Yeah, that's right across the river. So, that's mounted on top of the building, which we're not allowing. Yeah, but that's endorsed here, too. It's a It's Yeah. But I mean, you look at the extra space
storage sign, right? That's a pretty big That was That was the first internal That was the first one that when that one and it's big and it's huge and that got approved. Yeah. So, so I think we need to do a survey of samples of different contexts because
you think if you you can't write it for one district only, you know, so we have to we have to think it through. We have to use examples. Yeah. And you know, I have a um I have a uh a memory of a project some years ago that
we built in Connecticut, and there was a there was a a signed bylaw that was preventing uh my client from putting the sign up that they wanted. And
and I'm not It's just something for consideration. Yeah. What the client did because we had the corner of the building was entire glass, they hung a sign inside the building
um which was not um considered signage. Do you know what I mean? Because you can that's what this just and bring it up not only because we want to be careful that we don't we don't allow a loophole right for that to happen. the effect was just
the same. Do you know what I mean? As if it was on the glass on the outside, but it was suspended on the inside and the um authority having jurisdiction had no ability to uh say no. I don't know if this addresses it, but
some bylaws have a primary sign that can be a certain size. You know how we looked at that uh Gddard school had their primary sign and then they wanted these other things. Yeah. Um, so you can make the primary sign allowed to be, you know, one size
and then you can maybe allow secondary signs to be another so that you can prioritize so that you don't get this situation where you get signs slapped on all the facades if it's um, you know, visible to the public. Um, I think that's that's coming too.
Okay. But and we can you know so I I do think these def whatever this reverse lit if that's a definition needs to come somewhere and the inter internally illuminated and I do think we should think about some of these with
respect to size. Yep. Yeah. And and I'll look through to see if Yeah. if they have this. Um okay. Um, so we'll just skim through these. Then time. Unless a business established is open to the public, no
sign shall be illuminated between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 6 a.m. And that's usually what is required by the sign review committee. Intensity exterior illumination of signs shall be shaded, shielded, or directed that they
shall not reflect or shine on or into a neighbor's premise neighboring premises or into any public street. The intensity of such light shall be deemed acceptable if it does not exceed a factor of three above the ambient light intensity at any
point on the ground when measured with an incident an incident light meter and the following procedure. So as an applicant, how would you know what that is? So typically and does the town have
a light meter? Well, if you're normally your sign fabricator can probably provide that information. The um the electrical inspector probably has a light meter.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, so then it goes into um, so that was business districts. Then it goes into the residential districts because we were going to cross over this. A sign of
not more than two square feet in an area displaying the street number, the name of the occupant, the property, and the historical references if any, without need for a permit under this bylaw. I was let um a sign pertaining to the lease or sale
of a lot or building without the need for a permit. Um under this bylaw provided that such signs do not exceed a total area of 9 square ft nor more than 1 and 1/2 ft in any dimension
until at such time as all lots, apartments, condominiums, or houses have been rented or sold. That's an obscure bylaw. So the All right. Sorry. Go ahead. I was I
think I jumped ahead. That's all right. That's when contractor sign not exceeding 12 feet or more in area otherwise provided maintained on the property while construction is in progress and containing information relevant to to
the project. Such sign shall not require a permit under this bylaw and shall be removed within three business days after completion of construction. Uh one sign identifying identifying each public entrance to a subdivision or multif family development such as
apartments, condominiums or town houses of not more than nine square feet in in area not more than three and a half feet in any any dimension. In addition, each family unit may carry a single sign of not more than one square foot without
without time limit. So, one thing I would say here is we've got child care facility, memory care facility, hospice, hospital, businesses, and we haven't covered them at all. And
they um we should Yeah. In the residential districts. Yes. Yeah. Right. I don't know what the zoning is for Milton Hospital, but Hal get where you were going, but now I get
it. I'm sorry. It's like I I understand now. I get it. Yeah. Uh I just didn't hear you. So, uh because we've we've had projects that we've reviewed where we've seen these signs, right? So, um, and again, I don't
know how big those signs were that we approved anymore, but we we should look. FT and 3 and 1/2 eight feet in any direction. They're bigger than that. I can tell you that. Yeah, there there's definitely bigger than that on the memory care.
How How would you categorize those? I would just commercial uses because they are commercial uses in a residential. Yeah. Well, I think we've got the multif family already covered, right, with number
four. So then I think number five, which Tim has said that needs to be, it's not just non-conforming business though. I would call commercial uses and res and non-conforming. I mean, you could take it a step further
and say even protected uses Because like uh the house of worship is protected, the daycarees are protected and they have sign. This does well that's in here too. Tim
covered everything. I was we'll get religious and educational nonprofit institutions. All right. So that could be Yeah. Um so then the only thing maybe is it's the memory care is not protected. The hospice is not protected. The landscape. So then I guess the businesses and
commercial uses is probably fine. And we would need to determine what that would be what those I think a business should get to have the comparable to the business district.
I agree. So, if there's a way to write that here, we could because that's going to come next, the business district, and that's where the specific um detail signs that the measurements are included here.
I mean, we can once we read through this, see if there's anything that we think is not appropriate, but otherwise, I think it should be the same. So, commercial uses and non-conforming protected in residential zones
are subject to business district business district requirements. Okay. All right. So, business districts um and we're almost there. Um total sign area unless otherwise um here and afterward provided the total
area of all signs erected on a lot shall not exceed 1 and 12 square ft in area for each horizont horizontal linear foot of the building face parallel to or substantially parallel to street line. However, if the primary facade is on a
parking area, then said facade shall be used to determine the amount of allowable signage. Um, principal signs. No more than two principal signs shall be allowed for each business establishment. A principal sign may be a fl may be a flat wall
sign, a projecting sign, or a freestanding sign. The total area of a flat wall flat all flat wall signs shall not exceed 50 square feet on any one wall of the business establishment. Flat wall signs shall not project more than
12 in from the facade of the wall. Subject to the approval of the building inspector inspector, a flat wall sign may be located anywhere on a wall of a building provided that it does not conceal any part of a window and that its length is not does not exceed 7/8 of
the facade of the business establishment. A projecting sign shall not extend beyond the curb line or more than 50 in exclusive of any supporting structure from the building. A projecting sign shall not be less than 10 ft from the
ground level at the base of the building over a vehicular way 10 ft over a sidewalk or a lesser distance so long as public safety is not endangered nor more than 20 feet from the ground level to the top of the sign. Allowable area of a
projecting sign will be computed as 1/2 square foot for each horizontal horizontal linear foot of the facade of the establishment on which it hangs. Such signs shall not exceed shall not extend above the building nor be more
than 12 ft in area. Um, so freestanding signs shall not exceed 50 square feet of an area when the est so 12 square ft is like 2 feet by 6 feet. That would be like a tiny sign on
the on a big building. So again, it's like yeah, which the sign more than the bleed sign. So it's like a projecting sign out, but I mean, I don't know if you think about
like the you want signs on a building that are sort of proportionate to the scale of the building. So, like if you have a big massive brick building and you have this little sign on it, it's not going to look right. Well, you think of the towns that I think of the projecting signs, which
again I'll use Andover Center, but they do have they're not huge, but they they're very charming. You know, it's adds charm to it the way just the way they are applied to the building. I think it's in our design guidelines that we actually do like those signs, but you
don't want it to be a massive. If it's if it's an extended sign, that would be I'm trying to picture a projected sign. I don't It's like a blade sign that comes out from the Look at it.
Like the queue up in Marblehead, like when you walk around the building and the sign goes this way. Oh, sorry. Yes. Gotcha. So we should do a mockup of some example, you know, different different signs. So my only concern when you put in
language that says um for the um non-conforming commercial uses shall be subject to the business requirements. What if the businesses
um aren't the interior of a business isn't seen from the street? Because I think Cheryl you used something a word a phrase that said visible to the public. If it's not what happens if it's not
visible to the public then I meaning it's inside the inside the building. No, it's still outside the building, but there's enough space around the building and away from the street, so any passer buyers um on the
streets can't actually see your outside signs. So, this is my point about how some of this is is really thought of as like East Milton Square and not like all kinds of signs. So, it's almost like some of these requirements should be
specified that way. So, four signs on buildings in, you know, the business districts because if you think about Granite to Granite A,
a sign that's 12 square feet is going to be like a little dot on that building versus where Fitness Unlimited is. And we're trying to apply the same dimensional standard for to that that
range of scales. And I was thinking even memory care. So yes, we should have it for a certain sign size along Highland Street, but within the the property of the memory
care, they may want to have some signs directing, you know, deliveries out back and nobody from the public will be able to see it. It won't interfere with the public view. So would they have to come
and get permission for all their interior signs where directional signs? Covers directories in here. I remember looking for that. They're exempt. They're exempt. Okay. Yeah. If not viewed from the If they are not
viewed from the public. No, I think they're just exempt. Are they? The next page 21. You Tim is everything in here. I'm telling you. was very thorough. Yeah, I didn't read it either. Um, he was very thorough.
Well, when you get over to um then this I know there's a typo in here, but I think he's thinking about in the business district. So, if you go to he's probably thinking about what you were thinking. Sure. Go to 21. Okay. And um
and now he's now he's talking about freestanding signs, but um a freestanding sign shall not exceed 50 square ft of area when the establishment fronts on Route Two. So I don't know, maybe this came from some language in another town, right? But
so for us it would be like Granite A maybe. Yeah, I I'm I'm thinking that he was thinking of scale, you know, which is what Cheryl's talking about. or more than 25 square feet of area when the establishment funds on a street other than Route Two. So, exactly that that's
this is where you were going with that's where I was going. Yeah. Yeah. So, he's he was he was thinking of creating language that allowed scale to be used. So, I think you could apply that to
we could think about whether that should apply to these other signs as well, but I wouldn't I'd like to kind of think about scale. Yeah, I I think that's I'll see. That's good. Yeah,
it's just uh it's just finding the right language to describe that so it's appropriate, you know. Yeah. All right. So, secondary signs. This discusses that if a business
establishment consists of more than one building or if a building has secondary frontage on a street or parking area, a secondary sign may be affixed to one wall of each building or to the second side. Secondary signs shall not exceed one square foot for each horizontal
linear foot of secondary frontage on a street or parking lot and said area shall be limited to 50% of the area allowed for the primary sign. Directories where there are three or more businesses on a lot or or there are
businesses without an entrance on the street frontage. A directory may be permitted for the purpose of a traffic d purpose of traffic direction and control. The size of the directory shall not exceed 9 ft 9 square ft plus 1 and
1/2 square ft per business establishment. Such a directory shall be estab included in the calculation of a total permitted sign area for the lot. Awning retractable fabric fabric awnings projecting from the wall of a building
for the purpose of shielding the doorway or windows from the elements may include signage on the balance. Such signage shall not be included in the calculation of the total permitted sign area for the lot provided that no lettering or symbol is greater than 6 in in height. No
awning may extend within 2 ft of a curb line. Um, temporary sale signs in a business district. Temporary signs, advertising specials or promotions or sale of merchandise may be attached to or located only within the interior of a
window or door and shall not require a permit under this bylaw or considered in calculating the total permitted sign area for the lot. Such signs must be registered with the building commissioner prior to their installation. Each business shall be establishment shall be limited to
display such signs for a period of not exceeding 30 days with no more than three uh such 30-day periods permitted calendar year. 30-day periods may be utilized consecutively. Um signs painted on windows in a
business district script describing a product or theme and not including the name of the business. Such signage shall not require a permit under this bylaw or be included in the calculation of the total permitted sign area for the lot provided that no lettering or symbol is
greater than 6 in in height. Um sidewalk signs one A-frame sandwich board per business premises shall be permitted including with the public right away sidewalk only. a little um in addition
to the other signs permitted under the section 8 under the section under signs under section 8. Such signs shall not require a permit under this bylaw subject to the following conditions. The sign shall only be displayed in the
front of in front of businesses adjacent to the buildings, not only along the curb. The sign shall be displayed only during the months of May through October. The sign shall not exceed 24 in in 40 in height. The sign shall not be made entirely of plastic, nor shall it
be primarily devoted to a single product. The sign shall advertise the businesses and and the good and s goods goods and services available on the premise premises. Uh the sign shall not protrude on the
sidewalk in such a way as to obstruct pedestrian traffic or reduce the open sidewalk width to less than 4 ft. The sign shall be free of sharp corners, protrusions, and devices which could inadvertently cause injury. The sign must be constructed with a crossbar
brace for stability. The sign must have sufficient strength to stand by itself. Um, in response to specific safety concerns, the police department may prohibit sidewalk displays in designated areas during holiday parades or other
specified times or days when sidewalk congestion is excessive. The sign may be displayed only during business hours and must be removed from the sidewalk thereafter. The building commissioner shall issue a sticker permit on an annual basis which shall be
attached to the interior of the sidewalk sign. Wait, so it is this saying that all A-frames need to actually get a permit? So this sounds like something that they would leave out if it's left out for months um at a time.
Stick a permit. Mhm. I don't know. We I don't know if we do that. Do we if we do anything like that currently? You don't see many sidewalk signs here. I mean, occasionally I see Abby Park and Navara doing them.
I do one. Yeah, I did one when I owned Bent and I put it down on rent. Never got permission for it. Did you leave it out? Did was it out there? I put it in every night. I left left it out all day and then took it in every night. They left mine out all night seasonally.
Why don't we ask about that? Why don't we find out if Cuz that might be something that we might not 7-Eleven does it. Do they? Yeah. Down um on Randolph A. So, let's put a question mark on that.
Was once that um I I get upset about because there's inconsistency. Yeah, that's Let's find out. um live. Yeah, the reverse lit is actually on the definitions just if anybody wants to read it. Okay.
Yeah, we'll go. Um liability insurance shall be carried in evidence of some same maybe request of the building commissioner said insurance must cover personal injuries or property damage which may occur in such areas.
I don't know how folks feel about this. I think most businesses carry liability insurance. So, I don't know that we on signs. They want insurance on That's in case somebody trips over it or or this specifically to A-frame signs.
Yeah. If you're blocking the sidewalk and somebody falls into the street and gets hit by a car. That's That's where I think they're going with that. I guess we can just leave it in and see. I don't see a problem with that. Honestly, most people probably have that.
Um so last page religious and educational nonprofit institutions um one side sign including bulletin or announcement board identification sign or entrance marker is allowed for the principal entrance to the premises of a church, synagogue or other religious
institutions or school, museum, library or other not for-profit organizations not exceeding 12 ft 12 square feet in an area. One additional sign not exceeding 12 square feet in an area is also allowed if the establishment has
frontage on a second public way. Um up to nine additional square feet of signage is also allowed to provide information to the users on the site provided that no single sign exceeds three square ft.
Um, restaurants in addition to other sign permits prohibit permitted by this bylaw, restaurants and other food service establishment may post an actual menu on the building where the premises are located near the
main entrance of the door of the establishment without obtaining a permit under this bylaw. Um, I crossed off bed and breakfast cuz we don't currently allow them. I think um he probably just put it in as a placeholder if we did. Um
gasoline service stations one identification sign not to exceed this is you were talking about height Maggie huh not to exceed 12 square feet in an area. Oh, this is not sorry that's the size. Product identifications
signs for gasoline services stations may be maintained provided the total of said signs does not exceed 9 square ft in area with no single sign to exceed 3 square ft in area. And then directional
state traffic safety signs indicated entrance exit parking or similar traffic directional information shall not exceed three square feet in area per sign provided these signs are erected on the lot pursuant to a town or state
regulation. They shall not be counted in the maximum sign number and sign area requirement for the lot. Signs indicated parking for specific businesses shall be limited to one sign per five spaces. So, one thing I would say is I didn't
notice an explicit pro prohibition of billboards, which that's the one thing that I might be implicit, but it's not explicit. Good point. Right. So, chapter 113
after all that someone throws up. Well, that's what I was surprised because Tim said this will cover bill. Like when he was sending it to me, he said we don't have a way of protecting us on billboards. But but it might be section 13. It might be implicit because you're not
allowing a rooftop mount or a size of a billboard. But yeah, but would it hurt to just put a clause in? It just wouldn't I I think so too. I think so too. To be extremely explicit about it. Good catch. Yeah. So I would add would we want to
pro put that under prohibited? I don't think so. I think so. Just put a simple It's just I don't think it needs to be lengthy. And then that idea about this the height of a sign. Um
so if we if we're thinking about the gas stations again, like I don't think any of the gas stations meet the requirements that are in here. If you think about how much signage there is. Yeah.
So the question then becomes, you know, how is this derived and does it reflect the kind of signage that's used in gas stations today? I don't know how different it is from 10 years ago, but it does seem like you wouldn't want to put something in here that has no
bearing on any gas station kind of signage anywhere. And why would a gas station need a lit sign if we're saying it has to be shut off at a level? What do the when do the gas station sends clothes in East Milton?
And I don't think they shut off those those pricing signs. Those are up. And well, I'm thinking the winter when it gets dark at 4. They need I mean all businesses will need lit signs. Yeah.
Friday. It was 8:00 or 9:00. I don't think they're open past that. So, should it be tied in with their hours of operation and not just a straight 11:00? I think it is. Doesn't say.
No, it said 11 or six. Did it say or their hours? Unless they're unless they're open later. like Abby Park or Navara could have their lights on later because they're open later. But maybe it did. Let's see.
Because with the school on 138, didn't we say they had to shut their lights off at close of business an hour after? I think it was. Yeah. Was on a timer. Yeah.
And that's what I think the um sign review committee has been doing is saying as of operation or your lights should be turned off at that time. I don't know. Yeah, you're right. 11 to 6 unless a business establishment is open to the
public. No sign shall be eliminated between the hours of 11 and 6. 11 to 6. Unless they're open later. Later. It doesn't say that. Oh, I guess. Huh. What's What st What page are you on?
Uh Oh, yeah. Right here. Unless unless the business is I guess that's true. If they're open at 12, they can have their sign up. Yeah. Oh, let's Google them. What's the Milton Gas? So if a gas station goes to sell,
they go to 11. They do. Milton Fuel 11. Six. Open at six. So that's this time. Yeah. The reason why is written like this. Oh yeah. Um
okay. Well, I think this is I think everyone can look this over on their own, you know, and think about things that the billboards. Absolutely. We want to Can can this be sent to the um sign review committee for their feedback
before our next meeting if possible? Yeah. Well, the Shell gas station says it's open 24 hours. So, that was my thing. If they're going to selfs serve, I think they can stay open. I don't know if the town allows it, but but the state allows them to stay open 24 hours now because they're
self-s serve and not no one has to pump your gas. So, could they keep their lights on all night? Well, would that mean like the citizens kiosk down in Milton Village can have lights on all night because you can go drive up to the
ATM. Actually, if I was a Citizens Bank customer, I would want a light there, right? You would want a light? Yeah. At least for safety. Yeah. Right. And are all these lights dark sky
compliant? These um gas station lights? I don't think so. I don't think so. So, that's a bit unfair, too. Everyone else has to be dark sky compliant, but they don't have to be. But that's why they would be grandfathered in, right? So they grandfathered in. So there's
nothing we can do about it now, but going forward, we would be able to not have LED pricing lights on those. If we can if we
can do this in a way that's um that prohibits these under that section 8. All right. So yeah, let's I'll send this over to John and because he's been through this from the beginning. It was
actually I I had tried to get a design review committee established in Milton years ago when they when and John Zigowitz was on the um it was the central lab revitalization comm but but they did establish
the assign review committee um and I had said you know John would would you be the chair of it? So he's been there from the very beginning to see all of these different things cuz this this booklet has also changed because there were things that came out of the booklet because they weren't in
the bylaws. So it was like they've not been able to match up. So the by the this used to prohibit neon sign the booklet used to prohibit neon signs but it wasn't really it wasn't in our bylaws. So, and it was I think under
Flynn he suggested not putting in our bylaws. He made it like more guidelines that could be changed or altered without going to town meeting. I think was his goal that you could change and update things and then it got you know then people could appeal it and say it's not
in the bylaws and the select board had to approve it. So, right. That's what I understood too. Yeah. I didn't realize he'd been there since day one though. Yeah. He was the first I mean it's kind of common sense I would think that we don't want like and he's always denied it. They always
deny they've always denied the neon signs but yeah but so I'll send this over um and take a look and we'll think about billboards and then we have one um just
two last things on the agenda. the there is a new and Cheyenne if we haven't put you to sleep with this going through this um do you want to talk about do what um the finance subcommittee
um a little bit about that role and the the select board will be making appointments and they have added the planning board as a as a representative position Yeah. Let me pull up the charge for you.
Sorry. Now we can hear you. Yeah. Oh, can you hear me? Yes, now we can hear you. Oh, okay. Cool. I was saying I was going to pull up the charge. Oh, great. So that everybody could see it. Yeah. I
only just heard about the committee like this morning or yesterday, so I don't have too much insight knowledge, but um yeah, it's going to be like a subcommittee and I think there's going to be one planning board. Let me share my screen.
Here we go. So, it's going to have um similar to other committees um kind of like a large group of other people just to give their other insights. So, we're going to have two select board, two people from school committee, war committee, and then just one member of
the planning board which we're going to use tonight if we can get that tackled and then I'll zoom in for you. Thank you. My understanding from watching some of their meetings is that they uh wanted to do
basically coordinated financial planning to understand what the needs would be. um so that there's not a surprise sort of overbudget like I don't know exactly how you want to describe like
this past year unexpected kind of expenditures beyond what budget was and partly um also to think about like the revenue side and new growth as part of revenue and that's
tied to land use and tied to zoning which is my understanding why planning boards included in it. Great. So, I know Jim is on the capital committee. Um, we were just talking You weren't going to assign him something when he was
Yeah, I was going to We were going to assign you to this subcommittee. I get it. So, we were just talking about um we were just sort of going over this subcommittee. Yeah. So, is there any interest? I know everybody's busy with other lives and
serving on different committees. Um, does anyone have interest in being on this or not or has interest in not being on this committee? I have interest in not unless nobody else wants to do it then I will do it to be perfectly honest. But
it sounds interesting. I'm not that great with numbers but I could figure it out. And you're on the capital committee. I am. So that's good. So yeah, um you're I I definitely have interest in this, but this isn't the time for me to get myself involved in something else. Right
now, I'm struggling trying to meet all of my life Yeah. expectations, right? If it was a different time and circumstances were different, I'd volunteer because I do have an interest in the financial I know
aspects of the town, but not the right time for me. I'm sorry for that. So, I know I'm on the um the climate action. So, that's the only not the only but the
only um committee I'm on and I'm not sure what the um lifespan of that is, right? Because it's the climate action planning committee and you know the um they've done a great job. Um, unfortunately
they've met many times when we meet. So I've missed a couple like tonight. Um, so um I guess the question I have would be
are what how often are they meeting? What time are they meeting? Because um is there flexibility in days? And I don't know if they've gotten that far and maybe they have to, you know, meet and to figure all that out, right?
Um I think it's once a month, isn't it? I think the charge is once a month. That's what I read. Yeah. So on the once a month isn't overly um uh it doesn't have a lot of commitment
hours there I don't think but but sometimes you know how committees go then they start meeting more than once a month and or they meet at like six o'clock like the climate action committee meets at six o'clock and and
that's a challenge um sometimes for me to get to at six o'clock. Um, so those are just my questions and and I don't um you know I'm around town obviously every day. I don't travel too far outside of
town. So I'm interested in it. I'm just a little bit nervous about um overextending myself if um depending on I wonder if we could have Yeah, sorry. Yeah.
I'm not interested in it right now. It's not wouldn't um be a something I feel like I want to take on one more committee. Although Town Farm is wrapped up, um which Cheryl and I both served on. So, um but I'm wondering
if it if it has to be just one representative. I guess it probably should. Or if we could have like two people and you know if you were interested also and we had somebody to attend to report back to the planning you know the planning
board what development projects we're working on maybe or you know to and bring feedback back to our committee. And that's the question is how much extra work is it? Is it just because and you're on a lot of committees too? Yeah. Sitting around talking about things or do I actually have to go and
how much work do you actually have to do outside of the committee? Are you just reviewing? Um and I know it's a new one and so they probably don't even know yet. Um, I think you know uh some of this
discussion came about as I said before about you a lot of residents had concerns or questions about how budgets came together and how there could be surprises and so forth. And then I know some of the the new select board members
were and maybe old ones too are interested in more forecasting and that requires all you know um participation from town side from school side etc. And then um you know some have said that you know we really need to look at our
commercial tax revenue right and so um I think that's where the previously the there had been a committee that was select board and school committee and town staff and so I think this new constitution sort of
bringing in a few others is kind of to address that large sort of larger bigger picture. So in terms of the effort, I think it's probably kind of big picture discussion um like if someone said well can we can we begin to think about new revenue like
more commercial revenue you know then you have to start talking about well can we get more out of the existing business districts than we're getting now you know what kind of revenue are we getting there how feasible is it to to get business revenue you like people
Mhm. I know. What's the demand for office? What's the demand for medical office, etc., right? Because it's been challenging to get commercial. I mean, it took the Henry site a long time and they ended up with a nail salon, you know, and it was like everyone said anything but a nail salon.
That's I mean, it's tough running a brick and mortar. I mean, I know all the challenges, you know, I know them all and residential. I mean that's that's that's been very you know that's the average household mine included
you know you get five six boxes a day from Amazon or from wherever. I mean it's really challenging to to it's easier to run a service um business than actually a retail uh business. Um, and
so I when people start talking about, oh, why don't we have this type of business or that type of business, well, you need to find an owner who actually wants to take on operating a retail business because it is so challenging. And um, even if you look at the Chamber
of Commerce, the makeup of the Chamber of Commerce, there are very few um, uh, retail brickandmortar um, business owners. There's a lot of realtors. It's all service service. Um
you have um you know mortgage providers all part of the chamber. Um so that's what I I'm interested in trying to um have a more robust um retail Yeah. Um
town and there used to be when people say oh Milton never allowed or never allowed commercial. When I was growing up we had a lot more commercial. And and so I I do take a little bit of offense to that that oh Milton is so
close-minded, but we had all of our little neighborhood stores and littlearmacies, all of our little corners. Um and it's been sad to go, but that wasn't Milton wasn't um that wasn't Milton's fault. That was the change of um people not
wanting to run their own brick and mortar. It's it's it's a lot. It's a it's a lot. Um, so I'd like to see the resurrection um of more neighborhood um small um um
businesses, but then you run into neighbor problems. Um and the taxes for as a commercial business is great. Um, and you have to be able to
work a lot of hours sometimes outside of our business hours if you have a bit of an unconventional um um business. So, so you would be interested. Yeah. So, I would be interested, but I also don't want to like be dis a
disappointment either. Well, um we know the the master plan implementation committee is set to sunset in October after 10 years. Yeah.
And um there will be a recommendation to um update the master plan that comes from that. Um and that's been a huge time commitment for you. You've committed a lot of time. Yeah, because I've chaired it. It's you know as you know from chairing you um it
it does take um time to make sure that every prepared for all the meetings etc. Um and I'm our representative to the you know community preservation committee um I have an interest in it. I do have
um a tendency to overcommit so I am worried about overcommitting as well. Um, so you know, Maggie, if you want to give it a start, I don't know. Um, and if you find like that the hours or the that aren't convenient or if you feel
like there's other kind it's not the kind of input that you thought it's going to be, you know, maybe we could revisit it. Um, absolutely. Yeah. I think that because it is so new, we don't really quite know, but at least we would have somebody there at the start. And that's
what I thought at the beginning when I heard the selectant talking about this. I thought it was more about um you know the school budget is the biggest budget of the um of the town and for whatever reason their their finance subcommittees were not meeting
and so at first I didn't really understand um the need. I'm not one to be adding more committees to the town. I'd rather see maybe the merging of
committees and um it we have town staff. I I believe our town administrator, he should be doing a five-year forecasting plan and um and then bringing it to the selectman to review
it. So I I kind of thought that that was his job description. So I would think Maggie you you you keep it to what the planning board can contribute to the discussion and to me it's sort of it's the land use things and you as a a
business owner have a different perspective about that but you know if you you could ask the assessing department or finance office to provide what's the tax revenue generated from Milton Village from extra
space storage um East Milton Square, Milton Marketplace and say, "Okay, you know, we know it's a small percentage." Um when we did the overlay in Milton Village, we said if that at full buildout, uh we had MAPC do the buildout analysis
at full buildout in 2019, it would be half a million dollars in new revenue. Uh so whatever that would be today we we know from 440 grand a they were projecting I think 250,000 a year the same thing memory care I think
they were projecting that amount so you could be you could just say like for example a 440 granted a would bring in X right a memory care would bring in X what kind of revenue are we trying to hit with new development and what does
that look like on the ground I think that's the kind of convers that a way the planning board can contribute to that conversation. Yeah. Not schools, not town side budgeting, but on the revenue side, on the new growth side.
To me, it is interesting when you talk about new growth, and I've spoken to the assessor about it. They're always focused on new growth, and I said, "Yeah, new growth is for that first year, but then they never look at the
expense side of it." So, um, they never forecast the expense of the new growth. And, and to me, that's always interesting. And he's like, "Yeah, we don't look at that. We just are always looking for new growth." Well, if you think about the building department, new growth includes when you
add do an addition on your house or you renovate your house and the assessed value goes up, the tax revenue goes up, right? And there's a lot of that in in in Milton, right? There's a lot of I'm sure Jim you've seen it where a lot of small homes get being added on to
a lot right now are happening people um and what will ADU bring in for revenue I think that's um a good question what will MBTA communities you know like the economic analysis can there be a new economic analysis done those are the things I think that
um the planning board rep can bring to the discussion Yeah. Good. All right. So, is there a nomination to appoint Maggie to the finance subcommittee? I'll nominate Maggie to be the planning
board's representative to the finance committee. I'll second the nomination. All in favor? Oh, wait. Does she accept it? Oh, yes. You accept it? Yes. Exactly. Conditionally. Yeah. And I'll second it. Don't be afraid to drive the time to meet. Just tell them, "Look, I want to meet in the mornings if you possibly
can." Capital meets at 7:30 by Zoom. Yeah. No one has a problem with it. Yeah. And also my you know if you want my feedback or input sometimes I'm happy to either participate or have a call with you about. That's thanks. All right. All in favor? I
I Okay, great. And then just there's one just last thing on our agenda. Um, and I don't want to spend too um too much time, but um Diane did come, you know, and has been quite concerned that that
um the zoning articles, you know, were not properly um disposed of. And I have not talked to Nick, you know, to see what I know she sent the select board a letter. She came to us because she didn't hear back from the select board. So, I think it makes sense to talk to um
to Nick and and find out um if there's anything that's going to be happening on, you know, with the state or any issues that the state has with the with the articles um or the process. And I think he's probably had a conversation
with Sue Galvin um and um and probably town council. I mean, I sympathize with Diane um and all um residents for for that matter that if they ask questions and they don't get responses and you have to kind
of bounce around trying to find somebody who will provide the answer for you. So, I I do sympathize, but I also understand that people are really busy, too, and sometimes there can be a delay in in
getting a response. Um, but I do think she has brought up some valid points, not just on this particular issue, but that's why I know we're here. But it's just seems um to me I've been frustrated not being
able to get answers to questions or, you know, saying, "Oh, if you know, you want those questions, you have to pay $13,000 to get the answers." So, I'm sympathetic um to her. So, I don't know if we we can
ask just like town council to give us an answer, give us a written answer um to to her questions. Um just so we have done our duty with the resident has
asked us for answers and some of the answers we just I'm not comfortable answering. Um I mean I did watch part of the um towel meeting again this afternoon and she is right that um
um the moderator or new moderator said I will step aside and collect my things as um the temporary moderator gets sworn in. End quote. But I didn't see him and I don't
recall him actually getting sworn in. Um, and so to her point, do you normally get sworn in for a position before you get elected? So maybe there's a very
like reasonable response. Yeah. Legally and maybe just town council needs to provide that to us so then we can say we listened and responded. Any other thoughts? I um I understand also about
people not knowing in some cases where to go with an issue that they have that would like to get an answer on but this clearly doesn't fall in our um jurisdiction. Um that's what I that was my comment.
It falls under the clerk or the moderator or the select. You don't have the authority. We have no authority and I I really don't feel like we can put ourselves in a position of stepping in where we don't have authority because someone's not getting
an answer from someone else. I I think it's important for us to to stay in our lane. And um I wish she had gone to the select board with it and made the statement and I I sort of thought after she sent us the email that she would be doing that. Um,
so I don't know where that where that is, but well, I think she's here because, you know, one of the articles she's referring to was an article that came from the planning board, right? And she I think it's obvious the reason she came here because our article was impacted by what she
sees as a procedural violation. Right? So, she wants to know, how do you feel about that? That's your article. How do you feel about a procedural violation involved in your article? I think it's logical that she came here. No, I you know, my opinion, since we're sharing opinions,
I do agree the town should respond, you know, to the resident's concern and um there's a process that exists for a reason. There's a procedure that exists for a reason. Did we violate the procedure? Are we in violation of
process? And somebody should This isn't hard. This is all recorded. you know, this is this is I think I think the town should respond to the resident and say either yes or no that there's a violation of procedure. That's not complicated. And if the resident has
called to attention of the town um that a violation has occurred, I think the town's responsible for answering it no matter what the subject is. I don't think it changes the vote at all, but you have to put that aside. This is a question of not of the vote. It's a question of following process, following
procedure. And did we follow it properly or did we not as a town? But still, it's not our jurisdiction. I'm not saying it is. I'm I'm just offering my opinion. Why did she come here? Because it's an article that came from the planning board that was that was um affected, you know, by the
procedural violation that she sees. So, um I'm not saying I'm telling anybody to do anything. I'm just, you know, Diane I give Diane credit. She puts her heart and her soul into the town. There probably aren't a lot of residents that commit as much time and as much energy
as she does to the town. So, she deserves to be she deserves every resident deserves u fair and equal consideration. She's brought something forth that's legitimate. Everybody that seems to, you know, have listened to her or heard her, no one's arguing that she
has an illegitimate claim. The town should answer it. And and back to process, I mean, I have a question about the process on citizens petitions because I've been through it. And when I went through it, I was told
that I wasn't able um to change or amend my citizens petition because I had so many signers on the citizens petition. So all those signers
would have to agree to an amendment. So this is just a general question. I don't need an answer now, but this is a question that maybe Peter Melo needs to respond to is, you know, when it's a citizen's
petition, it's put forward by a hundred people, do all a hundred people have to agree to that amendment? So, I asked a question about and I don't know who gave you the guidance before, but I asked it on this because I was curious about that
because I think you may have mentioned it before and what I was told was once it's put forward then it can be amended like any other article once it's there. Um, so
just like we can put somebody any town meeting member can make an amendment to a planning board article or anybody's sub uh sp sub submitted article. So that's what I was told by uh town council. Yeah. But in that case would have as the planning board we would have to agree to the amendment. Right.
But town if not if we said no we're not going to accept it as a friendly amendment. Town meeting could still vote for it anyway. So they could amend something that we've submitted. Oh really? Yeah. the town meeting can do that. Yeah. And Yeah. And and so then that's
all the town council has to do. Yeah. I mean, I I was having a different question and I said, "By the way, now that I've got you on the phone, I asked you about something else, but I wanted to take advantage of having him." But um so he so he can easily do that,
you know, he can easily respond to that question in writing. So should we ask him to? Is that where you're going? Well, to everyone's point, it it out of our jurisdiction. It's out out of our jurisdiction except for it is zoning. Um,
I think it would be better if another board or another staff member responds to her out of respect. But if she doesn't get an answer,
then I think we should respond. But I don't know how much time. Yeah, that's we should wait for that. Well, I don't know exactly who she's reached out to other than she said that she in what she sent to us that she had reached out to the select board.
I thought she reached out to the state in her email, but whether she's reached out to the town the clerk, the moderator, um the town council, I mean I the town administrator, chair of the select board. I I don't know. But those all
seem like more relative more ones who have jurisdiction than than we do. Yeah, we we certainly don't have jurisdiction. It's not like we could call Peter Melo and say we want a written opinion from you, Peter Melo.
cut as a board. And since the resident came before us, I think it's fair to say that we could recommend that the resident get an answer from the town administrator, you know, as to her question. And I don't think there's anything wrong
with saying that, right? She came before us. It was on our agenda. There's nothing wrong with us saying that we recommend that the town administrator answer the question that the resident has asked. Again, I I I don't see us taking a a position
like that and making that kind of being a conduit for something that's out of our jurisdiction. I don't think I I'll talk to Nick and just see if I can Yeah, that's what I was gather more information suggest is maybe Meredith could maybe there's a process that they are doing that and taking some steps that we
just don't know about. So, I don't I don't want to assume anything. So, but I do appreciate um her coming and and trying to keep us accountable for what our what's in our bylaws. So, I think it's important. So, with that, that is the end of our um
meeting. So, I would unless there's anything else, entertain a motion. Sign. We will sign that before we leave. Um but I would entertain a motion to adjurnn. So, moved. Is there a second? All in favor? I.
Good night all. Thank you. And I go [Music]