Okay. Um, my my name is I'm going to call to order the uh 7 o'clock hearing of the Milton Board of Appeals. My name is Jeffrey Mullen. I'll be acting as chairman of the hearing. And with me are Christopher Hart and Michael Brown, both members of the hearing. This this hearing has been called by the board uh
to review the terms of the special permit that it that the board issued to uh to the to the um to the historic New England. uh several years ago uh pri and and which which
permit is is uh in in to be ex extended on August 13th of this year. The the per the variance has a um I'm sorry the special permit has a provision in it which provides for automatic extension uh unless objected to um uh timely
unless timely objected to but it also has a provision that permits the board to review the terms of the condition from time to time. It is that provision that the board has elected to exercise in calling this hearing. I want to be clear about that. Um uh what we have is
a letter uh uh that initiated this um uh matter and called this to the board's attention dated uh May 28, 2025 by John Corey, who I know is either in a butter or lives very close to the property. Uh Mr. I see Mr. Cory is here and I I I
think I' I've certainly spoken to you, Mr. Corey, about a traffic issue on Canton Avenue, if I if I remember correctly. Um, and I know the property. We all know the property. So, thank you for that. You know, give you time to certainly explain. I see your counsel is
here. Um, Mr. Corey calls several uh points to the board's attention for consideration. So, that's one document we have. We also have a July 1st, 2025 letter from uh Mrs. Marian Mcketric, attorney in Milton, who's representing
Historic New England in connection with this matter. I see Mrs. Mcketric is here and we'll we'll hear from her. And then lastly this afternoon, we got a a letter from Mr. Hill um who I see here and we know uh from prior hearings uh in in in the town of Milton. Good to see you. Uh
counselor, uh welcome back to the board of appeals. So um and thank you for that. I I I won't uh I I I did read the letter. Thank you. But it just came in this afternoon. I didn't can't say that I uh we studied. I don't know that my colleagues had a chance to study it. So
when when I ask you to pre present, if you don't mind giving us a little bit more um summary of uh uh details on on your the points that you've made just owing to the time pressure. So, um, the way I'd like to,
uh, uh, handle this hearing is is ask Mrs. McCetrick on behalf of Historic New England, um, about how the property has been cared for and how it's gone over the time that the board has since the
board has issued the permit. Um, because I want to think about this as a little bit of an update. You know, it's been it's been quite a while since we issued that permit. I remember that hearing quite well. Uh and there was a lot of interest in the hearing from the
people on the hill and a lot of excitement by Historic New England about the uh opportunity to purchase the historic property. So um that was uh very memorable, but it was also 10 years ago. So, I think it would help to give a
sense of how it's gone, how Historic New England feels about their um stewardship of the property, what's going on, how it's been received just in general. And then may I know you went into that some in your letter, and then maybe a little bit more about the specific issues that
have been raised by Mr. Corey. Uh you could maybe respond to that, and then we could hear from Mr. Hill, we could hear from others, uh and we could conduct a hearing. Does does that sound acceptable? just whatever you want to do. Okay. Um, Mr. Hart or Mr. Brown, do you
have any uh comments or questions right now about how we plan to conduct this hearing? No, Mr. Chair, that sounds fine. Okay. Do I Mrs. Mrs. McDrick, welcome back to the board of appeals. Thank you very much. I'm Mary McCetrick and I am representing Historic New England in its response to these
complaints. Um and also um if you could admit if they're here um Peter Gdlman who's the vice president for visitor experience at HNE and then also I believe Cararissa Deore or Deari she's
the vice president and chief policy director at HNE. So I'm going to provide as much detail as I can in response to Mr. Mullen's request about what's been happening in the last 10 years in terms of how the propertyy's been managed and what the events have been and so forth. But I do believe that Peter Gdelman
would be the best person to provide detail about that. Um we did um discuss this of course several times and then quickly tonight after receiving the letter. So there are some specifics that we want to respond to. Um, just as a
general comment, um, Historic New England's core mission is a combination of things. It's to preserve and protect historic properties, but specifically to invite the public into those properties to enjoy those properties. So, this
isn't a museum where, you know, only a few people can go and there's a high admission and, you know, um, it's not like the Museum of Fine Arts or something like that. So events of various types which are held at this site are designed to bring the public in
so that they can be there and enjoy the property. Um and we'll talk about specific types of events that have been held. I'll ask Peter Gman to provide more um detail about some of those. Um but it's very important to understand that those all the different types of
events and we with my letter I sent you a list of events for the past year. They're designed with that purpose in mind. They're not designed always specifically as historic interpretation events or anything like that, but they are designed to bring the public in so
they can be up here at the site and enjoy it. And the rest of the time from dawn to dusk, the property is open and any member of the public who wants to can drive up and sit in the parking lot. They can walk around the grounds. They can enjoy the sunset. They have to get
out of there by the time the sun goes down. Um and the property has been managed with that idea in mind. So you know there are um gone to dusk signs um posted at the property. Um you know
nobody can be there after dusk. That's also on the website. Uh but we don't want to keep I mean the purpose of this having this property is not you know to keep people out most of the time. It's to regulate um their use of the property
and also to attract people to come here. Sometimes there might be people who haven't ever seen the museum. This is the first chance they'd have to see this house. And I remember when it wasn't a museum. Um I you know, no one was allowed to go up there. You you could walk in and roam the grounds, but you
were trespassing if you did that. Um I think it was, you know, pretty unique that this property was preserved for the use of the public. Um, finally, um, I I do think there's some disagreement. I guess that, um, Historic New England
disagrees with some of the interpretations of the original permit conditions, but I do know that Mr. Mullen was, um, sat on that original hearing and probably remembers it very well. So, we can talk about that a little bit more later on. Um, I want to
just summarize our response to the original complaint, um, which was filed on May 29th. Um, we did prepare a written response. I'm not going to go into as much detail as is in that response, but some
of my answers, I think, will illustrate will also be responses to the letter from Attorney Hill. So, I'm just going to start right out with the first um complaint that we heard about, which was that there's a new flood light shining onto the neighbor's property. And in the Hill letter, there's a reference to Historic New England should not
be allowed to have lighting that shines onto neighbors property. Um, Historic New England doesn't disagree with that. The flood light, the two flood lights that were um installed two years ago were put on the existing light posts in the parking lot. They were not dark sky
compliant. They were not um screen they didn't have a shield going towards the neighbor's property. That was not correct. and they have consulted with a lighting consultant and would be very willing to replace those lights with dark sky compliant shielded lighting. And also if the board feels it's
appropriate that there be an actual condition uh referencing that requirement that lighting can't shine onto neighboring properties. Um that's acceptable and reasonable and makes good sense to everybody. Um so you have
specifications for those lights and we can talk about them some more if you want to but I won't go into that detail right now. The second um request that the neighbors have made is that they have talking about putting wanting to put thick new vegetation along the
side of the reception center and the parking lot on on the side facing their property. So such vegetation was originally was required in the original special permit on the chestnut run side and um it was installed. So there's a
number of issues with that. One reason that that was given for installing that vegetation was that it would block these these lights that shine on their property. We don't believe that that would that that would block the lights because the lights are actually fairly tall and they would be above the trees. Um and the better way to control the
lighting is to put in new lighting that's properly shielded and and um is dark sky compliant. Then the other part of the request for that vegetation um is that the screening is required to block the neighbor's view of the visitor.
I'm sorry. Parking lot in the dumpster. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt. I don't know if it's just on my end, but um but at least it seems like Miss Mcketric is breaking up a bit and I couldn't understand the last maybe 10 seconds of what you said.
Yeah, we cannot hear it breaking up. Oh, that's very weird. Let's see. I mean, I have good reception. I don't know why that's happening. Start with a discussion. You you've concluded about the flood lights and this and the and the lighting lighting. you were talking about the screening and
then you begin to pixelate a little bit. Okay. So, the problem with saying that the screening will will block the lights is that it really won't. The light light posts are higher than the trees. Um the solution to that is to put in proper
lighting that does not extend all the way down the hill towards the neighbor's property that has a limited extent. It has to be a specific type of lighting. We can talk some more about that at some some point or we can make a condition that it be that type of lighting. The other reason for the screening is that
the neighbors said they don't want to have to look at the visitor visitor center, the parking lot and the um and this is just the parking lot itself because they're asking I haven't seen a plan, but they were asking for a screening right along the edge um between the big lawn and the um visitor
center and then along the edge along the parking lot. The problem with that request is first of all that the the lot line is 500 ft away. The neighbor's lot line is really far away. It's up on the top of the hill. Second is the visitors center is
an existing 50-year-old garage that has always been on the property and it's part of the site and it's not ugly or unattractive. It's just a low building. It's one story. Um the parking lot is a gravel parking lot. Again, it's not
particularly noticeable. Um, but from historic New England standpoint to put that screening up means that public the public when they come in, they walk around the visitors center, they go through the parking lot, they sit in the parking lot in their cars, which people do. I' I do it. They can't see the view
anymore. And the view of the sweeping view of the of the grounds and all of the special vegetation, some of which has been preserved from the original Eustace estate, that's a very important part of this preservation. um project and an important part of inviting the
public in to enjoy it is that we keep those views available. So, we do have a problem with that request. I know that the um historic New England staff have discussed it with the neighbors in the past. You may want to continue to discuss it, but that is their response
to that particular request. Then there's a there's a request that um special permit condition 1F be referenced that says that um private um events with illumination with you I think you know
with um you know sound that they can only be um contracted with members of historic New England. So that means weddings that's about weddings. Historic New England has strictly followed that requirement. It also has many fewer
weddings than the 12 per year, two per month that are specified in the special permit. Um, so I don't know what that that issue is exactly. We may be misunderstanding that and there's probably more about that in another context in the hill the letter from attorney Hill. Finally, noise and
trespassing during events. I'm going to start with trespassing. Historic Newing New England has been aware of this concern from the neighbors. They've erected no trespassing signs near the lot line along that property. They've also they are now putting a cone in the
center of the neighbor's um driveway when there's an event and the recent Junth event is an example of that. So telling so that telling uh visitors not to go up that driveway that that's not part of historic New England that they'll be trespassing if they do that.
And to the best of my knowledge that worked very well at the Junth event. The other thing that Historic New England recommended or at least offered was they have offered to put a low black chain link fence all along the property line
with 1452 KN nav which would keep trespassers and dogs because dogs apparently are another part of the complaint here. Um that would keep them out of the property. Now I'm not sure that um the owners of 1459 want that. I don't think that so far they've said
they did, but I do think it's important to say that Historic New England has offered to do that and that is a solution to trespassing. As far as noise is concerned, when they have a private wedding event where they have amplified noise, they face the speakers away from 1452 Canton Nav and
back up towards the parking lot. Um, I'm going to ask Peter Gelman later on to explain some of the events that have been held over the past number of years and how they're how they're laid out. Um, you know, where people sit, uh, where the performance is done, if it's a
performance, um, and and you know, if there's o need for overflow parking, that overflow parking can be where the over overflow parking is. Now, um I what I the couple points I want to make. Um the original special permit doesn't say
that historic New England can have only the number of specified parking spaces. It says they have to have those as a minimum. In terms of what would be needed if you had a craft fair for example or any other type of event at
the site that would vary and use can be made of the um of the fields basically for overflow parking and that was the I believe that was the intention and I hope everybody agrees reading that special permit that that's what the special permit says. Now, to go on to
some of the specifics in Attorney Hills letter, um I'm not going to cover all of them, but there's um a complaint that pe that kids or people are hanging out in the parking lot late at night. This was a problem. There have been some incidents of that happening. So, um the
police asked that the lights be left on till 11:00 in the parking lot. And the police have also added this parking lot and this grounds as part of their regular patrol. So they are now patrolling and as far as we know recently there hasn't been any such
event or incident but that is how it would be monitored and handled and the police are cooperating with that. Even though this is private property they are helping to make sure that that's not happening. So as far as event management on site every event that Historic New
England holds has on-site manage management and a number of events have multiple managers. They never hold events without having on-site management. So, I know there was a request there'd be a condition there'd be on-site management. That already occurs. You could write it into the
special permit. It's what Historic New England does. There's never more than one tent at any event. There's one tent platform. It's used for weddings. It might be used on other occasions. There's never been a tent in the in the um parking lot. Um,
so the special permit clearly distinguishes a private event with amplified sound from other events. And the limits that are set in this, at least that's my that's how I read the special permit. It sets limits to those events of 12 per
year, two per month. Those are primarily weddings. And um, they're not holding they don't have that many weddings. I mean, last year they had one. This year they had three. those raise money for historic New England and the special permit specifically allows events like
that. Um, but they're limited and the reason for the limitation is the neighbors were worried that that type of event could become quite intrusive or noisy or whatever. So they the Historic New England has carefully observed the limitations. Um,
and finally, well, I already mentioned there are signs on the site and on the website stating that the grounds close at dark. Um, so I'm sure there there are other points in Attorney Hill's letter. Um, but at this point if if it pleases
the board, I'd like to ask Peter Gdelman to and it kind of lines up with what Jeffrey Mullen was saying. You know, since 2016, there have been a number of different types of events at at um the US state. Can you give us some examples of events and how they are managed?
Sure. Um, and good evening everybody. I'm Peter Dleman, the vice president for the visitor experience. Um, hello John and Miguel. Um, so the US estate just sort of giving you a quick 10-year wrapup with a little brief um gap for
COVID in the middle of it all. We um the program that we laid out early on is pretty much what has been um evolving and growing um ever since. When we started uh thinking about acquiring the use of estate and opening it up to the public, the goal was in fact public
engagement. The goal was to um engage the public in in history, in art, in architecture, and in culture. Um and of course, not everybody likes to go inside historic house museums for tours. And so the public program that we have been
developing over the past decade really does look at what visitors want, what the public wants in terms of um engagement and uh and um and experience. And so that's really what's been um driving us. We certainly are not uh
trying to grow this into a giant wedding mill or renting it out for massive concerts. The sorts of events that we do and have been doing all along are ones that um that are partner programs with um both local and regional groups that
um that sort of expand the way people perceive historic sites um which are there for the public. And I'll just give you a couple of examples just so you can understand the sorts of events that we're doing. Um typical concert we um we do a series of concerts uh every summer
um in partnership with a local group. Uh the uh bands uh are uh performers are often in the arcade facing um down the hill. If you know the Eustace estate facing down the hill toward the historic gate house and visitors are on lawn
chairs or on blankets bringing their own picnic lunches. Um and those typically bring in about um 100 people um in the evening um mostly locals. Uh we recently had a Junth event which was um uh considerably uh larger than those
concerts. We had a few hundred people at that event. Um lots of people, different performances, people coming and going over the course of um 3 hours from 2:00 to 5:00 in the afternoon. The performers were in the same location. So again, the sound was going down the hill toward our
gate house and um uh the cars were uh again coming and going to uh experience the uh the delight and celebration and that was done in conjunction with uh a local uh church in Madapan as well as Courageous Conversations right here in
Milton. Uh the largest event that we uh run is our uh arts market, our fine arts and crafts market uh which is um a program where people are coming and staying for about an hour and then leaving. So the numbers actually appear much larger. Um it's held in a field
that is on the other side of the um historic mansion from 1452, much closer to Chestnut's Run. Um and it's usually has about 50 small pup tents, pop-up tents um with uh fine arts uh crafts people um selling uh their wares. And
then we of course um offer uh visits to the historic house museum as well. And one other thing that we've been um experimenting with and we'll be doing a couple times this year is historic plays um which will travel around the landscape um uh smalish groups probably
30 or 40 50 per group but um uh outdoor performances. We're doing a Shakespeare um as well as uh uh different kind of uh bike themed play which will move into four or five different locations around the property. So we're still in the
experimental phase trying to figure out what sticks, what people care about. What we have learned is that people care about music and music is one way for people who don't want to go inside the museum to experience the wonder of the US estate and we are extraordinarily
conscious of of our neighbors and trying to be as respectful as we possibly can. Uh sometimes the parking does expand beyond the um traditionally established overflow parking, but again as uh Marian mentioned, our plan here was never to be
limited to such a small number of um of people on site. It had to uh flow out onto the ex the land beyond when we had larger events. Um we have about a 100 parking spots that are always in use. Um and for these larger events, uh the goal
is to um be able to expand and we always have uh parking attendance. Um this for the Junth event, I was the um parking zar. I was out there with uh two other people and we were on walkie-talkie managing the cars um perfectly and uh
there was never a sense that things were getting out of control. Thank you, Mr. Gdman. Um, Marian, anybody else from the from the historic New England? I just Well, I would just ask Cararissa Deore. I hope I'm pronouncing that
right, Cararissa. I'm sorry. You are. You are, Mary. Carissa Deore is here. I just want to ask her if she has anything she'd like to add. Uh, only my thanks to the board for your time and and your thoughtful consideration um both with the initial special permit and tonight. Um, it has
been really an honor and a privilege for us at Historic New England to be able to care for and steward the Eustace estate. It is a magical property. Um, it is clearly historically significant and embraced um by the Milton community and uh and we really love being a part of
the community and being able to expand the ways that people um find and take inspiration um from the property. So, thank you. Thank you. Okay. Um, let me ask uh before we ask uh Mr. Hill or or or Mr. Corey if if they
want to uh speak, let me let me ask if um the members of the board have anything that they'd like to ask of the historic New England representatives. I don't have any questions at the moment.
Nor do I, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Hill. Thank you, uh, Chair Mullen and members of the board. Uh, it's a pleasure to be back. It's been a while. Um, my name for the record is Dan Hill. I'm a land use attorney based out of Boston and I
represent uh, John and Miguel who are here as you can see. Uh, they are the director of Butters to the US estate at 1452 Cantonav. Um, and in a minute, uh, Miguel is going to show, uh, you some slides, uh, that he's prepared which
provide some sort of background and a lay of the land, so to speak, in terms of where the uses of state is in relation to my client's property and where these v various components are that we've been hearing about from from Marian and our team. I do want to
basically start with a brief overview of where we stand, the history of the permit, uh, and and what the concerns are and and then we'll get to what the ask is. Um, and and after I provide that background, uh, Miguel does have some
some slides that he'd like to present on the on the screen again showing the visuals of of these areas that we're speaking of. and then I'll come back and and speak to the uh proposed conditions that we've drafted that we did send to you later this or earlier today um in in
written form. Um I I do want to just start by saying that I don't think any of us has any disagreement over um the the the benefit that historic New England brings to the town of Milton through its
stewardship of this property. Uh certainly we're all very grateful that Historic New England was able to acquire the property and save 80 acres from development uh to preserve the historic estate uh and to provide a resource for
the town of Milton and its residents. Um nor is there any uh dispute or disagreement over the programming that Historic New England has engaged in uh wants to engage in. Um, you know, Peter
is correct. Uh, we are definitely concerned about this proliferating into something that's goes beyond the mission of Historic New England. Um, we are definitely concerned that uh this could be an event venue. Uh, but we're very
happy to hear that that's not their intent. Um, but that as this board knows that's that's something that we think should be incorporated into conditions. uh and that there should be some framework to make sure that the events that are happening on the site are
well-managed and and respectful of the neighborhood while at the same time serving the purpose of historic New England. So again, the the main message that we want to bring tonight is not that we have a problem with the events per se, it's that we have a problem with
the way they're managed. Um, and there are some things that we think can be done to improve the management of these events uh so they have less uh negative impacts on neighbors um and on the town of Milton in general. So just going back
to 2015 um I agree with Marian's uh recitation of the facts. Um there was a special permit issued. The special permit did uh limit non-M museum related events to 12 per year, two per month. Um
curiously, the the conditions in the decision also said that um that it basically restricted uh people attending the events to members of historic New England. And I'm not sure that the board,
you know, probably intended that to mean that no one could attend an event that's not a member. Uh, but that's kind of how it's written. Um, I I'm not sure the board also intended that there would be 20 or 30 events, large scale events,
50 or more people um, on the site. Um, I'm not sure the board intended that there would be unlimited cars coming either. Um, so again, I I think just to address something that Marian just mentioned, um, or or Peter mentioned, I think that
yes, there are parking designated parking areas on the site for roughly a hundred cars. It was I think my intention when I was here in 2015 and I think others that that was where the parking was going to be. I don't think there was an understanding or an intent
that that was a minimum that there would be potentially a thousand cars parked on the on the site. Um, so I I I I think the benefit of tonight's hearing is that hopefully we can all kind of come together and come up with a fra a framework of conditions, including
parking, where tents are going to be located, where music's going to be located, and so forth and and screening that hopefully we can all agree on and that we can go forward with so that we have some certainty and protection for for the neighbors and some certainty for
historic New England as well. Um, so that being said, I think it makes sense now for Miguel. Let me just let me just if you don't mind, Mr. Hill, just I want to make a couple of comments about the board's intention when it issued the permit. The parking is clearly the issue at the
hearing was clearly there wasn't enough parking and it was really the board specifically made a finding that there was the parking that was provided was adequate for the uses that were proposed. There's nothing in the permit, nor is anything that I recall about that hearing about limiting the parking. Now,
that's not to say that the parking shouldn't be limited, but that wasn't the issue at the hearing. The other thing is the permit doesn't limit the number of events. It limits the number of amplified events with sound that's
amplified because if you remember the then butters were very concerned about sound and most of the hearing was about sound as I recall. I mean, other than other than the opportunity that was provided by Historic New England being
able to secure title to the property, which I think was a lot of what the neighbors were talking about and to your point about protecting the 80 acres, I think it was largely about sound and we had a lot of conversations about those wedding types of events, but not about
museum programming, not that I recall. So, I just wanted to put a marker on that. It really it it I I I just wanted to I wanted to note that I disagreed with with your with your characterization. That's all. Okay.
Now, um Oh, go ahead. But go ahead. Continue. You do wanted uh Mr. Rosales to put a make a presentation. Yes. To um share my screen, please. Let's see. Let me try. Can you see it now?
Yes. Thank you. That's great. Okay. So, as you know that mention Rosales and with me, John David Corey. We are the owners of 1452 Canon Avenue. We um bought the property about seven
years ago and we spent three years um restoring it and we continue to restore it now. You know there's still thing that we want to do and we continue to improve the property. It's not clicking let's see
some issue. Okay here. Yeah. So I think we want to discuss two items. One is landscape buffers and the other one is the special events. I think those are the two main concerns that we have in terms of how historic England has been operating the you know the
museums in it since it was uh installed 10 years ago. Um this is a plan that shows uh the property and then different locations of the different elements in the property. Can can you guys see the cursor if we move it like that or Yes. Okay. Yes cursor.
So you can see here we have 1452 Avenue. We have a long um area where we share the property with Historian New England and there's many places where we can see the parking lot, the pistol center and all of the overflow parking. So, you
know, that's one of the main concern that we have that we're able to see these elements. And you have to remember that when you states were built 150 years ago, there was nothing like that that existed here. There was no uh welcome center. There was no parking
lot. There was no overflow parking. So all of these elements are really not part of the historic landscape of the area. They were added because you know history in England wanted to make it into a museum. Um when the special permit was uh approved in 2015, a lot of
landscaping was added but all that other landscaping was added towards you know the neighbors on the other side and there were no landscaped either you know towards to our side and I think what happened is that at that time you know historian England knew and they owned
the the property so they were not interested in putting any landscape in there. Um, I have to say that doing a low hedge of three to four feet along the parking lot is not going to impede the view. I don't understand that comment that you're not going to able
to, you know, to to block the view because nobody really want to see cars or a dumpster or a very unattractive Bona which you know is really not compatible with the main house. I mean the BTO center was built in 1950s and doesn't have to have anything with the
architecture of the main house. Um, so you can see here in highlighting in yellow the buffer that was installed for the neighbors on the other side and you see the dumpster and they cannot see it. We see the dumpster and we would like to see if there's a possibility to
add some landscaping you know on that side of the property so we can mitigate you know this issue. Of course this you know buffer has grown over time so it's very effective right now. If you are on the other side of the buffer, you don't see the dumpster, you don't see the parking lot. So, it has
been very effective for the neighbors. However, on our side, we are completely exposed. And I know that the property, you know, there's a distance between our property and the area where this is located, but we can clearly see it because one of the issues is that most
of the trees that are evergreen and very thick are on the side of the US state house. on the north, you know, there's only the cidious trees and in the winter it's completely open. So, you're able to see, you know, all of the property. Um,
that's not happening in the area where you have the US museum because I think, you know, maybe 50 70 years ago, they planted a lot of evergreens and it's very it's a very good buffer um which we don't have on our side. So even if we are farther away, we can still see, you
know, the the dumpster, the parking lot, the visitor center. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, we would be happy with something similar to this, but even if it's lower, we still be happy. You know, we would like to have some mitigation of the parking lot of
the dumpster and the vistor center. I think that's a reasonable request. Uh I don't think it's going to block any of the views. uh the minute that you step out of the buffer you're going to visit the whole view. So it's um to me it's disingenuous to say that this is a reason not to include the buffer on that
side. So as you see here the dark green is the buffer once installed in 2015 and we would like to install something similar you know on the other side. We are aware that you have to have the overflow parking so we don't want to block the
overflow parking. you should still be able to use it if you if you want to use it. Um, but we would prefer to have some landscaping here, some landscaping on this area and also because for these big events that they are having right now, there is a lot of cars, we would like to
have an over a proposed landscape buffer on this location too. Um, we don't think that these are unreasonable requests. I think that this is going to increase you know their visibility in terms of making it most attractive you know location for
the museum. Um again the parking lot is not attractive. The downtown is not attractive and when you have many many cars here which I'm going to show a video it becomes really you know a huge parking lot outdoors. Um adding landscaping I don't think is going to change any of
the views. It's actually going to enhance it. One of the reasons that um we requested this is because we have actually added landscaping on our side. But the problem is that the focus of the problem you know is very easy to manage if you put put the landscaping next to
it. If we have to landscape the entire area I mean it's an enormous effort and very very complicated when it could be just mitigated by putting some landscaping you know near the parking lot. Um so these are some of the you know the areas that we have concerned looking at
the cars looking at the dumpster. The visitor center again is not a historic building. It was built in 1950s I believe. Um they open all these windows so it doesn't really look you know like anything related to the house. So we would like to have some mitigation on that side. Um this is some other views.
You can see here the lights. These lights are for the overflow parking and they were shining into our property. We don't understand why you had to have overflow uh lighting at night when you know they had to have a generator come anyway for the let's say for the wedding
so they could just have the lighting installed at that time. I don't think there is a need to have these lights on you know until 11 p.m. it seems um you know and I know that they're proposing different type of light. You're still going to see it given the type of light that they're proposing. So I don't think
it's appropriate to have you know this overflow lighting shooting into our property is the visual center in front of the business center there's not a single plant it's completely barren so we don't understand that either it will be very
nice to have at least some landscaping in here to improve you know improve the area again nothing attracted by the dumpster you know that could be mitigated you know with some landscaping um this is what happen when you have these big events, you have cars
everywhere, way beyond the property that was allocated, you know, to put the parking when we saw the special payment in 2015. Um, it's not attractive. It's very complicated for us. Um, these events have a lot of sound. You know, now we have, I think, six or seven uh
yearly events where there is amplified sound. So, you know, we see this as intensification of use is definitely happening. I mean from 2016 to now the intensification of use of data has increased and there is more events there
is more concerts there is more things happening outdoors which I understand that that's something that you know historian would like to do but I think we have to find a clean uh like a good balance between being in a residential area and doing a museum that has all
these outdoor amplified music events you know outdoors with many many people. These are the lights. Um, and just go to just some views from our property. This is the winter view where you can clearly see everything. Um, these are other
views when you see, you know, with all the cars that are being added when you have these special events. This is from the other side of the property. And um I would like to actually show you something about um you know a video that
shows the two elements. Um this is one of the problems that we wanted to discuss. We understood that the parking lot and the overflow parking was going to be in a certain area but when they have a special events you know they extend way beyond and the cars can
actually come very very close to our property. And I don't know if that's really was the intent that you will have so many cars, you know, in the in the museum space. So that's, you know, that's that's a concern to us. We thought that, you know, the spacer permit was indicating that you will have
the parking lot and then an overflow uh parking space, not the entire site can have cars. I mean, it's like are you going to allow 2,000 cars to come into the property? I mean it seems um you know not the best use of the land and also it's having a lot of impact on the
property of history in New England. So you know we're very concerned about that and this is just to show you you know this was a recent event. All of these areas are way beyond the area where it was supposed to be located for the
parking. So you know that's that's a big concern of us you know how many cars and how many events you know the amplified music the anticipation of use and are these summer concerts really critical to vis
you know again we have to balance being in a residential area and having a museum I think that you know that's something that needs to be uh you look into. Can we go to the next one?
Okay. And that's you know an example of the wedding. Um in this one actually it was very very loud. We had to call the police. Um another another issue that we had is that there was nobody from Historian New England at this event. So there was no manager at night there
because nobody sleeps in the property. So, this was, you know, u close to 10 11:00 a.m. And we think that that's a problem that there should be somebody somebody there uh from, you know, from the beginning of
the event to the completion. Just going to show it again. And is this reasonable noise? We don't think so. So, you know, we're a little bit confused with these two items here. Um,
does this mean that you can have 12 weddings in a year? Is that is that what this means? Yes. uh does it mean that uh you know you can have this amplified music 12 times in a year? So you know we're concerned about that.
I think that it's uh it's too much because they also having all these other amplified music events. They're having summer concerts. They're having a jazz festival. They are having u you know like this uniting event where was also
with music. So is that was the intention? I mean we would like to see if something could be added you know so we don't have to deal with you know all of this amplify event uh with music. So you in summary this is somewhat of our concerns additional parking not in
our thought was not permitted to have way beyond the parking lot and way beyond the overflow parking area. Uh the noise and the glaring lights. Um we also have a lot of trespassing vehicles and visitors you know from the museum. So having many many border banks is not
going to help us. Um almost every single day we have a car coming out our driveway because they think they're going to the US estate not to our house. Um when you have an event, you know, you have all these Ubers coming back and
forth. You have people trespassing. So you know it's a it's a problem for us. And I know that his certain has tried to you know improve some issues you know by putting these small signs. I think that has helped in some some manner but the amount of space and the distance that we
have is substantial. So it's very hard to control you know what you can do between the two properties because it's a very very long um we also consider having these free regional events without museum membership. Um I don't know that should be the intention of all
these events having so many people come to the property and the safety at night you know there is no caretaker living at the place so when there is an issue we have to be the police we have to be the one that hold the police because there's nobody at night that you know will respond for histori England because
nobody's sleeping there. So I'd like to turn it on to Yeah. Um I'm just going to say a few things if you don't mind. Uh, Chair Mullen, I'm sorry. I'm going to say a few just to say a few things. So, um, John David Corey, I didn't really introduce myself before,
but just so the boards know, uh, I grew up in Milton. I went to Pierce, I went to Milton Academy, and actually I grew up on the other side of Eustace. And, um, I know the estate. I knew the Jeffre family. Um, I would just like to say
that historic New England has done a yman's job in preserving all that land. I mean, I grew up there. I knew what a 5 acre I knew the Jeffre land. I would hike through the woods with uh uh the sun and um so it just I think that and
then we and then I through the urging of Carl Nold who was the president of historic movement bought 1452. Um, I think we did an exceptional job on the renovation and I hope it's a role model for the town. Uh, I'm very proud of the project. Um, but I would just say
and I love Historic New England. We've been benefactors and I just want to have the museum next door as a true asset that it can be. And I think that having, you know, some extra security measures, maybe some control of the parking, um,
some buffers added, you know, not not asking for craziness, uh, and better management, I think could go a long way for us as the bunners and also for everybody else in the area. So, uh, thank you for the time and I think, um,
Dan Hill is going to say a few things, Mr. Hill. Yes, thank you. Um, so the the the slide that's on your screen contains the the the proposed changes that we would make to the existing conditions on the special permit. Um, some of these look familiar, some are a little bit
different. Um, but I'm not going to repeat what uh John and Miguel just just said. Uh, the the bottom line is we feel that there should be some some tweaking to the parameters uh for the events that that occur on the site. So the first
tweak we would suggest is that the number of of events these large scale events uh be limited to to 12. Uh nine of which would be um any special event that's you know related to the museum or not related to
the museum. Uh three of which could be the private events such as weddings which sounds like is is the right number for for historic New England. I think one of the problems that we see with the language that's in the existing special permit is that it's really geared
towards regulating non-museime related events, but in fact there really isn't much distinction between museum related and non-museime related when it comes to the impacts and sometimes it's really hard to hard to distinguish. Um are these concerts the summer music series
that occurs on the site is that related to the museum? I mean, arguably it's not because the the people who are performing there have no relationship to the museum at all. Uh it's just that the museum is is hosting it. Um but on the on the other hand, of course, they'd
argue that well, this brings people to the site, so that's that's good for our overall mission. Again, no one ha is concerned about the program. The issue isn't about the events. The issue is just these events
need to just be have need to have some greater control and parameters to avoid impacts. So our suggestion is uh nine special events with three weddings per year. Uh so that's conditions uh one and two um
or two and three actually. Uh, and then condition four just repeats I think what we had in the original permit that the noise be limited so that it doesn't violate the state noise standards. Okay, go ahead. And then the uh the next next condition
is that there be uh staff on site during any event. Um I heard Marian say that there's always somebody there, but I I think our experience has been that there sometimes isn't. Uh so it it's great that uh we're hearing that there's plans to have people directing traffic and so
forth. I think that just should be incorporated into the into the permit. Um putting putting down putting in writing the the time periods that I think everybody has already agreed to that uh that the events should occur between 9:00 a.m. and 10 p.m. and not
later. Um and then probably one of the more critical pieces of this is is limiting the size of these events. So maybe there's a dispute about what should happen on this property. Um our feeling is that these events should be
limited in in size and scale that the existing parking of roughly a 100 spaces that should guide how many people are coming to these events and how big these events really are. Um if we don't have a parameter then there's no limit. Uh so we think that should be built into the
conditions. Uh, number eight is the lighting, which I think we've already talked about. And number nine is the screening. And we have a plan. Um, if we haven't already, we'll we'll email you the the plan that was on the screen showing where we think the appropriate
screening would be. Um, they don't have to be tall arborvites. They could be a roll, a hedro that's, you know, three feet tall that doesn't block views. So, there's definitely flexibility here. It's not like we're trying to break down views. Um we'd love to have a dialogue
and discussion uh with the board about what's appropriate for for any additional screening around the parking. And then finally, a new condition that addresses the security there. There is no gate currently that prevents anybody from coming onto the property at
night. And as Miguel said, there's there's no one there at night. So, um it's it's all well and good to say the Milton police will stop by every now and then, but um it seems to me a better deterrent would just simply be to put a gate at the driveway. Um that would deter people from coming into into the
site at night. Um, and perhaps Historic New England can can install some trail cameras and other there's a lot of ideas that we can talk about to improve the security and to ensure that uh folks aren't coming onto the property when
they shouldn't be coming on. Um, so I think that concludes our presentation. Um, appreciate the board's time tonight uh to consider these these these ideas and and happy to have a further discussion. I'd like to ask that the uh this presentation be submitted to the
board for the record and also a copy of it be distributed to Historic New England. Of course. Thank you. Um could you could you take the presentation down, please? Let me ask if any of the members of the board have any questions for Mr. Corey,
Mr. Rosales, or M Mr. Hill. I I have a couple of questions, just general questions for Mr. Hill. So, I mean, I I I understand your client's concerns certainly. Um, I just want to be sure I understand
um what kind of the request is here. So, am I correct in saying that the concern is that the the use of the property has changed since 2015? Um and first part and then second part is is is there anything specific that
you're citing as evidence that the terms of the permit are not being complied with? Well, first I think the I don't think anything was happening in 2015. So of of course of course it's different. I I think as
I think over the last 10 years the use has evolved, let's say, and I think that the the use the use has intensified. Um I think there's been more events. Um they they've been bigger. Um I don't know if noise is per se the problem. I think the bigger problem is just the
proliferation of the events and what doesn't seem to be a master plan. And I think that's what we're looking for is sort of a master plan, a site plan that this board would approve saying, "Yeah, this is where the parking's going to be and it can't be everywhere. This is where the tents can be, but they can't
be any everywhere and anywhere." Um, so that that's I think the the genesis of why we're asking for these conditions is just that we've seen in the last particularly last 5 years a sort of any kind of rhyme or reason as to where things are. Um, one of the one
of the ideas actually we had, which I don't think we mentioned, is that there could be a pre-registration process for these events. In fact, I think the the the Historic New England does do that for some events where they'll have people sign up uh if they want to come, but a lot of events they don't do that.
So, when they do do that, that's a great tool so that we so they can control how many cars come onto the property. Um, so with respect to violations, I don't I don't know if if we're saying that there were any violations per se of the
permit. I I think I think we just want to improve the permit. I think there was some ambiguities in the permit. Uh maybe some unintended consequences. And so I think what we're asking for is is just to improve these conditions so that they I think reflect what the intent was back
then. But you know, we could all disagree what the intent was. Thank you, Mr. Hart. Um, no, no, no questions at this time. Thank you. All right. I I want to provide Historic
New England. Let me make uh one comment one another way to let me just talk about the intent. When when Historic New England came to the town of Milton and the Milton Board of Appeals for this special permit, the concern was to
design a museum that would be successful. The reason for the non-museum related events and the amplified noise was that that as we understood it was that that was going to earn revenue to make the
place successful. What I'm hearing is you've succeeded and the the museum has been quite successful and I think and I think the uh Mr. Cory and Mr. Rosales have said it. They've done well and this
is really a 10-year checkup on the permit is the best thing I would say and that it's the reason why the board agreed to hear this matter. Mr. Hill, you should know that your clients did
not make a timely objection to the permit. They submitted after the window. You allege in your letter that you can make a make a make an objection to the permit before it automatically renews. I agree. I agree, but it had to have been done by May 13, and that wasn't done.
So, the board is doing this as a 10-year checkup, and I want to make sure that everybody understands that. I don't I haven't heard anything that's out of bounds about what you would hear in a 10-year checkup, but I I I read your letter and I I wanted to get that on the
record. Do Do people disagree with those facts? Okay. So, um let me um All right. I I I I also think these are important matters that are going to take some time. So, um, and I don't know that we can get through them all tonight, but I' maybe
I' I'd like to give Historic New England an opportunity to respond to some of this if they want, and then I'd like to hear from the public if they're here, but I just want to get those a couple of those out on the table preliminarily. Mrs. McCre.
Okay. Thank you. Um, just I'd like to make a couple of I guess I'd like to ask some questions. Um, having seen, you know, the suggestions for requested landscaping, um, I understand now, um, that the neighbors are saying maybe they're looking for landscaping that's maybe 3
to 4 feet high along the edge of the, um, visitors center and the parking lot. Um, still, you know, I understand that's what you said you might find acceptable. You also showed landscaping down at the bottom of the hill and then said that could also be 3 to four feet high. And I
honestly don't understand how that will improve things particular unless what you're really talking about which is what we talked about in our letter um which is that you can add understory what what's called understory vegetation you're allowed to add it on your side if
you're asking Historic New England to add additional understory vegetation where there's a direct line of sight um going up towards that area. I mean, maybe that would help, but it seems to me you would just be looking over it because, you know, this hill is really
high. So, I'm I'm not, you know, I understand that that's what you're proposing, but I I guess I perhaps you could think about that and I know um one of you is an architect. I'm not sure which one of you, but I'm sure that you can provide u Miguel as um you know, you
can explain that. Um, the other comment I have about the landscaping is in one point you showed a drawing and you showed landscaping perhaps this 3 to 4 foot all the way around the parking lot. And you need to understand, I mean, it's impossible to have overflow parking out
of that parking lot if you put landscaping all around it. I mean, there has to be a way to get to the overflow parking. So, that needs to be looked at again. And I'm not sure how landscaping on the right side really affects your view in any case, but those are just
some specific questions I had about your comments about landscaping. Um then um just listening to what you're saying terms of the entrance um you're still having problems. You say, you know, just ordinarily people and I it can be confusing those two driveways.
I'm wondering if there shouldn't be better and bigger signage at the entrance very clearly delineating private property and historic New England. I there's a small sign I think. So I I'd like you to think about that as an option and maybe you have a
suggestion on that. Um as far as there being no management on there is management there for events and as I said there are multiple managers for some of these events that are larger. If you look at the list of events that we provided as an example, this is for the
last um 20 25 event schedule. They're all types of events. I mean there are some concerts, but Peter Gdman already explained those concerts are not thousand or 2,000 person concerts. They tend to have, you know, 100 maybe 150
people at most and that's not 150 cars. I don't think that they're a problem. I mean, the the concert locations are either on the porch or they're on the lawn facing downhill, you know, sort of in the direction of the um the building at the entrance. Again, that that would
tend to mean that the sound would go in that direction. And they're all variety of concerts, but a number of them seem to be jazz. I guess that's what people like. um not you know well I don't want I don't know anything about mo you know contemporary music so I'm not going to
give an example but these aren't well I guess I say in the old days we'd say these aren't rock concerts you know but there could be all types of music particularly at a place like the June at an event like Junth so and I know there were a number of of music events there
um so and and secondly the events are of many different types so when there's a craft event and I've attended them up there. Um, people come throughout the day. They visit the little booths. They're not crowded at all. And if you add it up everybody who comes in the
course of a day, you get a number that looks like an awful lot, but that's not who's there at any given time. So, there are significant problems with saying, well, we should just limit the number of uh visitors that you can have. And these are just my comments, by the way. I want
to give an opportunity to Historic New England to to tell me what they you know inform us better. But let me just clarify something Mary too before everybody gets nervous. I'm going to ask for this hearing to be continued. This is way too important.
Um we're not going to rewrite this permit tonight. Um Sure. Uh I I I I was not expecting the kind of detail that we have, nor was I expecting provisions, specific provisions on the permit. We spent
months on that permit. And um this facility is way too important for everybody to negotiate on a Zoom hearing two days before July 4th. Um especially when we just got this letter this afternoon. Thoughtful letter. Thank you.
but it's detailed and this is an historic property, right? So, I want to I want to make a I want to hear from people, but I also want people to relax because and I don't want people to overreact. Um I I'm going to recommend as the chair that we continue this and
that Historic New England have an opportunity to thoughtfully review what's been thoughtfully presented and and to respond in some appropriate way that I know they will do. uh that is also thoughtful with respect to the
significance of the property for them for the town and and frankly for New England. Um so I I I just I didn't want somebody rushing to have to respond to whether it's 4 feet or 6 feet or 80 feet
wide or 30 feet wide. That's all. So but go ahead please proceed. Thank you. Um just I had some other thoughts and um I think you may have may have referenced one of them but um in these situations you know again there was a problem with some congregating in the upper parking lot that seems to
happen all over Milton um and it's been addressed by having this becomes a regular part of the police patrol. This isn't occasional but it there could be security cameras in that parking lot and that could be discussed. In other words,
if there are security cameras, who looks at them, you know, how are they monitored? Um, that's usually the solution to that type of problem. And it's remarkably effective sometimes, unfortunately, in Milton, you know, when groups go one place, then when the cameras appear, they go somewhere else.
It just keeps moving around. Very frustrating. Certainly don't want it up there um at historic New England, and nobody should be up there at night. We'll discuss, we'll respond, uh, to your request about the gate. Um, if there's a good reason why that's not a
good idea, you know, we'll respond to that. Um, I took a lot of notes, but I, you know, it's hard for me to keep track of, as you say, um, Chairman Mullen, um, it's pretty hard to put all this together tonight. 100% understood. I think everybody would understand.
Yeah. Um but but but please um if if if the if the historic New England representatives have something they want to say, I mean, I think the board would appreciate hearing from them or but you don't have to say anything. I don't want to put pressure on people. So that's it for me. If they want to
speak, that's great. Well, I think it it's I I very much appreciate the opportunity to put some real thought into this and and to put together um the information that would really help the board to understand um why we might respond in certain ways to to components of this request. And there are just so
many granular elements of what was discussed tonight. I think we really need to take uh a pretty close look at it. Um, I could I could bat around a few things right now, but I think it would be a better use of everyone's time for us to to get organized about this and respond at the next the next meeting.
Fair enough. Mr. Hill, do you have an objection to that proceeding that way? No, not at all. I think that makes a lot of sense. Come back with better ideas and maybe we can talk in the meantime. And I don't mean to stifle conversation. I still want Mr. Corey. I see you want to be recognized. I don't want to cut you off. Did I cut
you off? No. No. Go ahead. Okay. I was going to I was going to hear from other people, but but but go ahead. We'll finish this. No, I just I think that's an I when you said that um I immediately um not that I say calm down, but I I very much
appreciate the fact that we can have time to work with Marian and Historic New England. And you know, I think that honestly if you boil down all the requests, you know, come down to some security issues, some landscaping issues, some noise issues, some lighting
issues. Like I love the I love the museum. So I think that um I think that we can work it out. Um but I think sometimes it takes, as you know, maybe in the public process to sort of get everybody to the table. Yeah.
Yeah, that's fair. Um, Marion, are we is your rebuttal uh are you prepared to move on? I'm prepared to move on. I would like to hear from the public. If they're here, I'm sure you can invite them. Okay. I just All right. Uh, let me ask Bill if there's unless there's comments
from um my board, my fellow board members. Okay. I just I just have a very quick question. Very very quick question. Um um Miguel, during your presentation of the slides, you mentioned uh the sound. I couldn't hear anything in the volume. We're gonna
have a copy of that with the audio. Okay. Yes. Yes. In the PowerPoint, we'll send it as a link. Thank you. Um, Bill and Kathy, he is still live up there. Pardon me.
Have Have they commented on the sound? Has that that was their issue as I recall? Yeah. the um the uh let me ask if there's um anybody from the general public who'd like to be heard on this matter.
No one has raised their hand. Are there are there people that are from the general public that are on that are listening in? Bill, there appear to be a couple that's fine to comment. Let let me ask if there's if there's any comments or
any other testimony that somebody either the board would like to impart or questions you'd like to ask or additional information that we should we should hear right now. Okay. Hearing none. This this is what I'd like to suggest. I'd like to propose
that we reconvene this hearing sometime in July. And uh I'd like to ask um the neighbors and historic New England I'd like to invite them to speak to each other to Mr. Hill's point walk the site. I'd like to
request that Historic New England take a look at Mr. Hill's letter uh and the presentation that we just heard and if you wish to offer the board additional information that that's voluntary. I'm
not I'm not requiring that. I think it would be helpful. But uh and then I'd like to ask Bill if we can identify a time today if we can reschedule this or continue this hearing for a time where we can more thoughtfully think about
potentially modifying the conditions of the special permit without any commitment to do so in in any way. Um and you know knowing um knowing the amount of work that gone into this entire project um respectfully uh which
is which is on my mind and um you know I I I want to say take some time to take a look at that PowerPoint and in particular the letter and the conditions. By the way were the were the conditions that we saw on the screen the same conditions that were in the letter? Okay. Thank you.
All right. That that helps. Um, Bill, uh, is there a proposed time that that we could re reconvene? Um, the only, uh, blocked out times I have for other hearings, CBA business, are the 28th and the 30th
and then I believe the 15th. I have an earlier hearing, but I could do a seven. How about the 23rd of July? I'm available. Sadly, Mr. Mr. Herd's available.
No vacation for you. Oh, I didn't say that. Oh, that goes to the question of whether or not we're going to ever go back to town hall. It's up to the chair. I'm just the acting chair.
Uh, the 23rd works for me. Does that work for historic New England representatives? Does it work for Mr. Corey, Mr. Rosales? Yes, we can make it work. Would it be the same board or does it just available that night?
We're locked in with us. I don't want to do it again. No, I mean, I think others would appreciate the opportunity to sit and to hear this. It's a privilege. Um, but you you've got us. Um,
we'll we unless there's an objection, I'd like to the motion I make is to continue this hearing until 7:00 on Wednesday, July 23rd, at which time we'll hear additional testimony and deliberate uh the um whether or not it's
appropriate to modify the is the conditions that are in the 2015 special permit. In the meantime, it's the board's expectation that Historic New England will uh consider the testimony tonight and the materials that you've
seen. Um and uh you know, I welcome additional testimony from others uh at the continued hearing at that time and uh we will uh discuss the uh application in more detail. I mean the uh the matter in more detail at that time. And is
there a second for that motion? Second. All in favor? I. Any objections? Okay. So moved. Um this board I I'll call the this meeting to an end. Uh this portion of the meeting to an end and
we'll continue at 7 o'clock on July 23rd. Wish all a happy 4th of July. Thank you very much. Thank you. Good to see you all. Rip it. Rip it.