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thank you good evening today's Monday February 10th welcome to the Milton warrant committee uh Karen could you uh could you please call the role sure Tom Caldwell Steve ryes is on Zoom Lori Conor
J funling Julie Joyce is on Zoom Peter M Brian Maguire amand Nasi and on Zoom we have Rona and Judy steel for quum and Macy Lee is joining us nice hi Macy come
on in um well I'd like to thank everybody for being here in present and on Zoom um I assume we're going to get a lot of the people from The Bean poot turning on off the hockey game and watching us
so right we got a couple of members there tonight um but uh we have some things we're going to talk about we're very I I did plan on uh having Town Council uh Town Council had a busy uh evening and could not make it uh Mr mow
is going to be coming on Wednesday and I just want to announce that just to clear up some of our issues around the the zoning bylaws the planning board articles that we saw there were some very specific questions and I'm sure sure you'll have more um but Town Council can come in come in on Wednesday
he's going to answer that and also uh any other questions that we have about what we're going to talk about tonight which are citizens petitions uh and and uh our zoning bylaw um our town administrators here on Zoom very happy to have uh Mr Milano with us this
evening he can really speak uh to the two citizens petitions um the lighting bylaw not so much but uh Jay has put together some materials for us uh concerning the lighting bylaw and hopefully we can get a member of the select board in here to discuss that uh
with us um potentially by next week um so that's really kind of what we have in store I'm not not expecting a vote or anything tonight more of information to administrator will be sharing what he knows about these citizens petitions and Jay is going to do some presentations for the lighting bylaw so all that being
said why don't we get started um Karen could you promote Nick yep Nick is a panelist is hi Mr Milano how are you good afternoon how are you you're muted thanks Cameron how's that any
better perfect thank you Mr Milano and uh I would like to thank you again uh um for taking time this evening AIO schedule to to be with us and explained a few things so you probably heard um just looking maybe uh the best you can in terms of you know the information you
received from the select board and your involvement in the in the citizens petitions at least as they came forward um Mr Milan any information that you could share with us I guess that are pertinent to those two um articles that we're going to be commenting on at this
upcoming town meeting and um obviously the I I guess in the two we have the um the article concerning the uh the law um appropriation and then we have
um the um the planning board select board article so I guess um if you could could you could we maybe start um start to maybe have a just discussion about the law uh line item issue sure um so just so everybody understands how these
citizens petitions work um we you know don't have any involvement um in crafting them or writing them or anything these came in uh with the signatures um prior right prior to uh when the select board was finalizing the warrant um the petitions were delivered
to our office um the way they're supposed to be and then we bring them down to the town clerk's office for review and certification of the signatures so um M general laws requires that the select board place in the warrant for a special town meeting any
um item the subject of uh which is uh requested be inserted by um for special Town meetings it's 100 signatures for an annual town meeting it's actually just 10 um signatures for a Citizens petition article as this was a special town
meeting um petitioners had submitted well over 100 signatures so the town clerk's office certified you know 100 signatures plus a few extra pages just to make sure um there are sufficient signatur once that happens um they are placed on the warrant uh for the next meeting um
there are two obviously the law budget one uh which is a reduction in the appropriation for the law budget um and moving that appropriation to the school department the other is is more of a almost a resolution calling for an action of the planning board um so um
just in terms of what this and I can answer more specific questions if there are any but in terms of the one on the legal budget um this is the town's legal budget which we use um the line item that is being requested to be reduced is the professional and special services
line which is any service covered outside of the retainer that we have with Murphy H2 M he so we pay a flat fee on an annual basis for Peter's Time Peter melon's time um and work on things that are kind of just general Council um
items things that require research and you know lengthy memo or court filings those are the things that kind of trip trickle up into special services the other um things that are covered by special services is our labor counsil Services which is also provided by
Murphy Hy to M so that is Personnel matters that might arise where we use Council or uh more commonly um collective bargaining um so if um when we're doing collective bargaining parties uh request Council participate in that uh those hourly rates would be
charged at this line and then lastly we still have um some outstanding 40b matters that are being handled by a firm called hway and Barnes um they were brought on by the select board I'd say seven or eight years ago uh when all the 40 BS were first coming
in um through the board of appeals process to represent the town and for the most part those cases have due I'm happy to answer more specific questions if there are any provided any uh additional information that might be helpful um and the then the planning board one C position like I said is more
of a is a resolution more than anything so um have to take questions Mr chair if there are any yeah um Nick are there um I guess just generally for the committee are there any prohibitions uh
statutorily or through any regs prated by the Department of Revenue um that address these types of matters and I guess just a preference it but to ask that is this um and I know that every citizen can request a reduction in Li item or an increase but is this are
there any outside state law or anything that has to do with what A Min like minimum requirements that a municipality has to have in terms of a a legal budget does that make sense yes there is an anything in terms of the minimum requirement that a town must have for a
legal budget I would just note um one thing about the this article itself is that uh state law does not allow to spend accounts into a deficit um and if they go into a deficit we're supposed to
clear that by June 30th um so that's when we come to the warrant committee with Reserve fund transfers and Appropriations transfers to move money around within line items um so as I was saying state law doesn't allow um a town to spend past uh its past zero and go
into deficit this citizens petition as currently written with the reduction of $250,000 would then put this account into deficit we spent about $70,000 out of this account um at my last um
check-in um so just to kind of step back the appropriation was about 283,000 the recommended citizen petition reduction is 250,000 which would bring this account to an appropriation of 33,000 approximately and we've already spent um
I think close to 75,000 so what that would mean is a little kind of um an open question um whether this the town meeting can legally put an account in deficit uh we did reach out to the Department of Revenue about that specific question and they um they
didn't really respond other than to note that these kinds of questions are help help answered by local Council so it's something we put on um Town council's plate to be thinking about um ahead of the town meeting uh um does anybody else have any questions
I I have I think one other Peter have we seen petitions like this before to go in and take a look at the budget and decide that there's too much in line item a and should be to Less in my item D is this
something that happens reg in the town I didn't quite hear that I I don't know if there's a mic that's not on or U it's not coming through sorry the question I was asking is uh do you get to see this on is this a usual petition do you see people go out uh signing on
to change budget item uh too much in line item six and to little line item I'm sorry so is it usual that this comes up is that what how often does this come up oh um I've not seen this before like
occasionally there'll be midyear budget um changes that are recommended not since I've been in Milton anyway and and if I'm thinking back to my time in Prior communities um not very often um you know typically if there was to be an
adjustment it would you know emanate from us um so to my knowledge I don't think this has come up uh recently in any kind of like a midyear budget cut and budget transfer um that I'm familiar with hi
Judy ah thank you for Mr Milano I believe I heard you say there is still an outstanding case on the 40 BS and if this should pass a town meeting that we resend this funding how
how will any pending case es be funded or resolved even would we have to no longer have Council on that issue that is a good question I would
have if this were approved as written yes I mean this account would be in deficit uh we've already incurred bills that we would then have to pay and they would be potential for future um legal costs that we would either need to forego or or um seek a reserve fund
transfer some kind of an Appropriations transfer to pull money from another um departmental account and move it into this account the reserve fund um has $250,000 in it it has not been used or I'm sorry $265,000 this year it hasn't been used yet this year so that would be
one resource but that would require the warrant committee's approval Appropriations transfer where if we took say from the selectboard budget and moved it into the legal budget uh that is something we can do but can only do that in the last two months of the fiscal year so we wouldn't be able to
actually do that until um May May 1st at the earliest and that would require both this committee and the SL board to approve okay thank you um Mr M just to follow up on that um
if there were If This Were to pass as written would you would and if there were significant legal costs to be incurred for the variety of uh matters that are going on with would that be a recommendation that we pull this from the reserve fund or would there be any
other funding sources because you know they want the the the petitioners want this to this 250 to go to the schools um so outside of the reserve fund is there anywhere else we you think we could draw F draw from off the top of your head at this time of the year I I
think it's um it's not necessarily I don't have any specific departments in mind that I would I know as a matter of fact will be under budget by the year end you know we obviously anticipate budgets departments to come in under budget by year end um it's
still a little early to say with certainty so the only uh true viable option for us at this point would be the reserve fund the other issue with pulling from other departments is I can't we can't do that until May 1st at the earliest so if we had bills that needed to be paid in in February March
and April then that would require us to seek a a transfer out of the reserve fund um and into this account um you know as soon as possible pretty much and there would be outstanding matters um whether in court or otherwise that the town would need um to to continue
funding those those uh efforts as the Town Administrator uh what value do you see in the reserve funds as we approach the end of the fiscal year and I when I ask that question is like is that something you're looking to tap
into not in February yeah no you know we certainly want to leave that till the end um sure you know whether it's Public Safety or DPW there are uh a lot of Demands on on people's time that can incur overtime so those budgets we always keep an eye on and as everybody's
seeing with the storm we just had we've had two um busy snowstorms on Saturdays into Sundays which are even more expensive expensive than normal with um the the the time that we incur with our staff to work so our snow and ice budget
is budgeted every year at $160,000 the actual spend in a normal snowy season is about a half a million um so we go into the year knowing that we have room to make up there so that Reserve fund I would certainly like to
leave um untouched until until year end thank you anybody have any other questions concerning the citizens petition concerning the line uh law the line item for law appropriation Jay uh
yes Mr Milano I have a question as to how citizens petitions work so they submitted it they had the required number of signatures and I heard some of the discussion at the select board about well this isn't printed like usual but we'll just print it as is so their
petition is printed in the warrant but then at town meeting the motion before the body is the warrant committee's recommendations so my question to you is what restrictions if any do we have and what we can recommend can we
recommend something different than what their petition is as long as it's within the scope um I would my interpretation of this and this is a good followup for Peter on Wednesday um it would be that
the matters that have been raised by this article are contemplating a transfer between these two accounts so I think it it's restricted to these two accounts um I think the amount uh could probably be open to um discussion or an
amendment and that's you know up to the count Town Council into the town moderator so I'll defer to them but my interpretation is you know the guard reels for lack of better description are these are the accounts that are being contemplated um and the amounts themselves um in theory could be um
somewhat higher somewhat lower we do have a bylaw that restricts the amount of Appropriations that can be um amended on town on town meeting floor um if the budget hasn't been previously um studied by by this committee or some other
committee and I can point it to that um bylaw in a moment so so uh you said it's restricted to these two budget items so if we wanted to say take the schools out of it we want to transfer the money into the reserve fund
instead you're you're as you said talk to Town Council but your gut is that might not be okay or yeah I would defer the moderator for scope and Town Council and town moderator for scope questions um on on that kind of a that specific of
a question okay but if but if we wanted to change the amount to $1 would that be to your understanding would that be an acceptable recommendation from the warrant committee I think in terms of going lower than an appropriation that's
contemplated in the warrant I don't I don't think again I would defer to them but I don't see that as being necessarily out of scope but that would that would be up to them for a final um Steve ryes and then Brian yeah thank you let me try to lower my hand
here thanks uh Mr on I'll get a question for you I'm just trying to track this so in the the citiz petition there it's requested to move $33,000 from select board law Professional Services right and then so
it would create deficit in that in that in their their funds right so they would be out of money essentially is that correct correct to the purpose but the amount is to reduce it by 250,000 to make it about 33,000 okay
so and all the projected monies are said to go to the schools is that correct is that where the target landing spot is for them according to the petition yes okay any idea what they would be used for at the
schools uh nope I I do not know okay because there's as you know as as we'll all see tomorrow at the high school there's a pretty big gap there right and so sending more money into an area with that a you know specific landing spot seems like Risk what the question i'
have too is um what kind of exposure does the town have if we go into a deficit for Law and Professional Services right there's a lot of construction going on in the town um there's storms right um we have civil servants who you know um could get
injured on a job right what's the risk to the town I'm guessing I'm asking I mean do we have funding if if we need to and I mean you're talking about Reserve fund shifting monies is that is that what we would have to do that would be the only uh viable
option at this point if this budget goes uh below um you know what we've spent year to date we would need to seek funding from another resource um which would then have a cascading effect on on you needs you know later on in the fiscal year um and ultimately that's not
a guarantee there's no guarantee this committee would necessarily approve a reserve on trans so you know certainly the town could be left in a place where um it doesn't have money to support its um its Legal Services you know whether things that we're already aware of or something that comes up um in 30 days
that we had no expectation of yeah I mean it seems like we're potentially putting ourselves in a tight spot right it could be right um thanks Nick appreciate it thank you um oh and then Peter you want to go
first yeah I apologize if I missed some of the numbers but we budgeted 283,000 correct yes and um you know how much we actually have spent of the 283
75 like yeah uh it was like 78,000 last time I checked and then we added a couple of things so it's approximately 80,000 for a round number um off the back of the envelope 80,000 spent and
any estimate as to what they plan to spend going forward like where they're at on that you know um uh sorry I'm just trying to pull up a summary here um you know so it really
bounces around year to year a couple years ago we spent about 300,000 in 23 fiscal 23 was 74 fisal 24 was the year we had um encumbered the monies for MBT communities case so we had fully spent this budget and then some um so you know
we don't we try not to spend all the 283 appropriation I'll say that much and our Target is always to try to keep this as low as possible um so I would say I would expect anywhere between um maybe 22 250 to be spent out
of this depending on what could come up between now and year end you mean including 250 more than the 80 you think no no with total so all in like somewhere between 200 and 250 of the 283 that's been appropriated I mean this is really targeted to the NBTA Community
act law right fighting that what that's my understanding based on of the um right I'm around this do you know what the estimate is for that legal fee uh at this time no uh the town hasn't um made a decision on its next
steps on that okay um uh do you um do you know why I mean I know this was just June 50 write to the schools but you don't know why they didn't
designate like the police department or the fire department or DPW for the money no I don't have any insight on that um I would have you know kind of go anywhere to yeah that's start working on my snow and ice step is it uh would good
but no I mean that it just taken from one to you know Robbin one to for the other so so actually based on what we for the end of the year we're right off the bat be in deficit you already said that and we'd be even more in deficit
but have to stop spending legal fees completely the town doesn't seem prudent but how do you do that if you get sued that's right yeah just one caveat on on that in
terms of um lawsuits are um depending on what they are some may be covered by insurer so not everything necessarily flows to this account for the most part they do but um there are small there are some things that we have covered for around Li professional liability and other items that um the insurance
company you would fund um legal cost uh Peter the ma thank you um it would appear and Brian I think you brought this up that the two petitions were were in fact would in fact be related if we didn't have any money there would be no bet no
fight uh against uh any uh of the zoning uh as had been approved but also didn't follow the rules generally put forth by the uh SJC right so I can understand
well taking taking the G out of the hands of the lawyers to fight this might be a related petition one being related to petition to um and putting it to the schools seems like a good thing
so I yeah anything certain my question is the approximate 80,000 that has already been spent out of the professional special needs services does that sum include the
representation in the SJC of the town uh so um since we had a fixed fee engagement for MBTA community's case with Goodwin Proctor uh that money was encumbered at the end of fiscal 24 and it was a
contract so all of the um cost born on MBT communities defense were uh paid with fiscal 24's money um fiscal 25 started aresh on July 1st um so these costs to date are um those incurred um
since July 1 on mostly on non-mb communities things Town Council will occasionally bill on MBT communities depending on uh the matter um but that's at a much you know much lower rate in in very few hours um so these are more um
whether it's labor Cil services or um the defense of the town in certain cases um that are flowing to the court system um out me the communities are there any pending litigation at this time um that requires additional representation that
would require more than $80,000 that's already been spent uh heart to say um we're engaged in litigation around 648 652 kav which is the 116 uh unit 40b that's still winding
its way through the courts um that project has also um the Conservation Commission um declined to uh issue an order of conditions for that project that was appealed uh within the mass BP um they were Grant the developer was
granted uh a superseding order of conditions the Conservation Commission then appealed that within M the EP uh fulfill you know for any number of reasons so that's an example where that litigation is ongoing um town the planning board in the town have been sued uh in relation to um the approval
of the memory care project uh across from the hospital um so a butter appeal have appealed that to the court so council is actively engaged um in defense of that um unid and winter
Valley uh filed for through to be Appel tax board for um the charitable exemption which has been uh rejected by the P Tax Board and by the courts in past years but they continue to file again so we can continue to incur
litigation expenses associated with that uh where they're trying to avoid um paying any taxes to the town um so these are the kind of the matters that are ongoing now uh depending on which direction they go in we could conceivably continue to spend um several
thousand dollars a month on them between now and the end of the year and the other item I'll just flag is we've talked about this in terms of the budget but um on July one our Collective bargain agreements do um end or on June 30th rather rather so we expect
collective bargaining to to commence um in more Earnest in the spring um and some of the unions like to have Council so the town brings Council so those are expenses that we anticipate uh between now and June 30th thank you thank you Nick am on I
had a question so I was looking through the uh booklet of the vote the decision to support renovating the third and fourth floors of the Cunningham school I want to know are we um what's going on also with the Tucker school because I
know I've heard in past meetings specifically with the select Board of you know the like Tucker School kind of having a scarcity with around like using the rooms I uh wanted to check with that cuz I unless I'm missing something I haven't seen anything about the Tucker
school oh I'm on we're we're addressing the legal oh okay uh line item okay the school matter isn't on the agenda okay I just want fig since I got
it thank you though yeah there any other questions please did you have a um were any of the petitioners contacted and able to come in and speak to it I haven't received um
contact or from any of the the signatories for the petitioners at this time I I did appeal at the last meeting and have been trying to figure out uh who would like to come in and um you know just have a little question and answer session I've yet to see any uh
anybody Avail themselves of uh the warrant committee's chair's office you would think that would be important to somebody took the time to get a 100 signatures or more 200 or 300 signatures and then to not come in soon I would I would I'm not um I'm not
in the position to really try to cold call people try to research their numbers or stop at their house I don't think that's really wholly appropriate at all in any way but um but I you know I like at the last meeting I asked and I've been asking around and um so just
to answer your question yeah uh not not at this time this time um does anybody have comment I just have a comment and Nick you can validate this but I think from the um information that you shared with
me the um to have a $33,000 appropriation for legal fees in the last 207 years our expenses were more than 33,000 on that line item so it does not
seem to be a prudent suggestion by 100 Citi to automatically cause the town to go into a deficit unless I'm miscalculating my count of the
years now that math sounds right anybody have any other questions or anything for Mr Milano as it pertains to the the law line item I have a question about the recommendation doesn't isn't the
recommendation always like the Warren committee makes the recommendation and so how will that be will town meeting think the Warren committee made this recommendation this was discussed I think at the select board
briefly yeah we it was an issue and we discussed it internally with the moderator Town Council I think um we ultimately on Town council's advice we took the petition exactly as presented we did include a space for the warrant committee's recommendation in the
warrant itself um so in terms of what the warrant says it does copy that that there's a recommended line um but the warrant then goes on to have a second line where it says the war committee has not yet made a recommendation and I think that actually procedurally is
beneficial here is where there'll be you know a revised updated Green Sheet recommendation from the warrant committee for clarity at at town meeting uh itself and will obviously put that online once once the warrant committee is ready on it and I think that will help um clearly clearly indicate what
the warrant committee's recommendation is notwithstanding um the way the petition appears okay thank you thank you Lori anybody online last call any questions about I think it's pretty
straightforward okay um thank you Mr Milano for all that do you think we could uh if you could to the best you can't discuss um Article 15 and that's the one related to planning board yes I think yes yeah I
you know I I think this one it reads pretty clearly is what the inent is um I think the right the correct way to read this is almost as a resolution um expressing the sense of the town meeting um as a you know
separate elected body I don't there's anything that's the town meeting could force another elected body to do um so that's the way I've interpreted it obviously um as we've mentioned a couple times Town Council will be with you on Wednesday so if there's more specific
questions around that um we certainly discuss that with him but that's the way I've um I've I've read it and interpreted it myself so I I might have missed that uh nick uh was that like the select board in instruct the planning
board uh this is asking for the town meeting to instruct the planning board town meeting okay that's what I thought thank you anybody have any questions I know Mr Milan's probably not the best versed on this obviously to discuss this with Mr Milano more but anybody have any
questions for him now again pretty straightforward um um okay nothing all good okay uh Nick I I know that you and I you know we just chatted briefly um not too long ago but
um what can you offer us if anything just regarding the lighting bylaw I know this was a select board zoning article um it was kind of um worked on by a member on the select board it's been going around I guess for a couple of
years now but is there anything you can maybe Enlighten us with uh just in regards to that article that we're looking at sure uh yes so um this was an article that uh select board member Aaron Bradley has been um interested in
seeing uh get to town meeting um there are actually two they are General bylaws so uh not zoning bylaws uh there had been some discussion initially that um regulating lighting would need to be a zoning bylaw um but based on how some
other cities and towns have approached it um or at least one anyway it can be outside of the zoning code um so the select board has not had um any kind of you know in-depth conversation recently on um these two articles um they were
placed on the warrant by the board um so I think you know she would be the best person to speak to about them they were reviewed uh by Town Council um you know for proper legal form to address um some to help address some issues raised and
when articles of a similar nature were approved in another Community as the municipal law unit of the Attorney General's office has to review and improve any um local bolaw so when they do so they sometimes identify potential issues um so that is is one item that uh
Council had reviewed uh and assist and to assist Aaron in drafting those articles um but other than that the board hasn't really had a a deep conversation about them uh expect to do so between now and town meeting but that hasn't happened quite yet so I don't have a ton more to put in other than the
the intention I think is a little is pretty um clear from them in terms of looking to regulate outdoor lighting and the other one is is looking to provide a pathway for uh potentially problematic uh properties to be addressed through
the select board thank you Nick anyone have a comments or question you may be able to answer okay yeah Nick you you just said the intention is clear you think and there's there's two there's one that is protection against light trespass I
think I understand that if if my light is shining in my next door neighbor's bedroom keeping them awake this bylaw addresses that I I think I I think that is clear but then there's the dark sky protection and that is not the intention
is not clear to me I don't know what problem it's trying to solve can you help with that I think I would F the um Aaron on that if um she's coming in to speak about it I think the intention is to um
place a little more control on outdoor lighting more generally uh but again it's not something that the select board has had a um a detail conversation on uh so that for me to be to report back on Nick can I ask you a question and you mean I don't know if
you'll be able to answer it because it's a little strange do as your in your position as to administrator or in you're assisting the select board or any other kind of board up here at Town Hall are lighting
complaints going through the roof uh I you know that's a not that has come across my desk um there occasionally will be complaints um but we do have a code enforcement officer sure um in the building department um and I can follow up with them we reached
out to uh the building Comm when this is being crafted at one point but we can regroup and I can report back on that I no I'd appreciate it um and I I just ask that um just because is this is this bylaw is is there a
specific residential or commercial property this is looking to address yes or is this just like that's why I asked the question I just know if it was a bigger problem in the town um right now
but yeah I I don't I wouldn't say people are banging down my door on it um but I'll officer um and get some data if there is any on you oh okay thank you yeah NY if n can follow up where did this bylaw what was the result uh how
did this come about if I mean you just mentioned I'm sorry to interrupt you just mentioned that um The Whole Town's not knocking on your door um so if it doesn't sound like it's a prevailing and compelling public
issue so how did this come about that um the town is seeking um dark sky protection and protection against light trespass how did this come about if you know and I not necessarily on the
specifics just procedurally um you know our office will help with you know anybody who's looking to craft a bylaw and I think that's that's what we did here um we we helped provide some resources looked at how other communities have done it um and shared that so we facilitated from that
perspective um in terms of what is precipitating it for Aaron I I would think it's something that's worth the committee speaking with her directly on and I don't want to um misrepresent or or not properly kind of share her perspective
on that's okay okay we have Judy and Allison a couple more questions if you can okay this is for Nick um you mentioned that part of this article will be that the select board
could address lighting issues choose and make a determination is is that what you were saying if in the end this article doesn't address specific issues and resolve
them then the select board can determine if somebody's lighting is not correct yes the second of the two articles would provide for like a hearing process
by which if a complaint was filed that person would be invited into a meeting um to um discuss the issue and potentially the C board would find that there's a light trespass issue that exists and there would be
um you know potential penalties as a result if I may um sure follow that through as I think lighting is uh is a zoning issue in a way or
building department issue people that um are immersed in these type of issues in no disrespect to our select court at all but where would that body town government body
um have the knowledge to address a lighting issue as thoroughly as say a planning board or our building departments any
thought oh I'm sorry I thought you were just making a comment oh no no I always have to have a question until it's discussion time I learned I learned no I mean I think uh those I think there the intention was to
keep it to uh you know an elected body rather than staff but um beyond that I can't really speak to the specific process outlin other than what the article read currently okay thank you
sh may I say something actually Allison is next I'm sorry hi yeah so um so that would would that then for people who had like Christmas lights like are we starting to now would this bylaw cover you know things that are done in
the community like that that gentleman does on on um what street is it and he does this Great like Christmas like little light show um would that and he's been doing it for like 20 years which is amazing and
everyone you know people enjoy would that now put all of these kind of things under question um Nick I think that's a better question
for Town Council than it is for myself in terms of um those kinds of specifics and um no I think the easy answer is they would be fine as long as it complies with the requirements under dark sky but I think uh there may be I don't believe the
intention is to affect like seasonal decorations but I could be from here um I know that there was a member on the the team that asked now I'm sure you have some sort of detail but this is
kind of geared around the Turner pond president I mean let's I mean and Aon should come and speak for it herself but this is I mean if we want the back history of it you would could go into some of the meetings um and see that
this has to do with the lighting around the Turners Pond resident I think we need to be kind of you know put that out there for people to understand if they want to look for information regarding it look like they targeting someone this
um I didn't see anything in the Dark Skies under with holiday lights or Christmas lights or anything like that but as an aside so they would be prohibited I would think um but the whole intent of Dark Skies you're not going to be able to answer anyways is
that you can see the stars and you can see everything else but can does it work if you're like next to Boston and quinsey I don't think it works anyway and there's airplanes going over yeah
247 so you would it wouldn't matter we didn't see um the uh the Northern Lights when they were here remember um the oh I saw them did you see them in Milton my back here I saw some of it but not as clearly as other locations because we are so close to the city and the airport
and all those factors so those yeah I mean so unless you ban all that too right so I would think we just maybe there should be an expert because that would want to illuminate illuminate [Laughter]
us I have another question for Nick is there an um another exception for flood lights for security purposes for lights that you can train to go on whenever there's movement and then have it go off in five minutes because I don't see that
in this proposed motion um by law um so I'm just thinking of motion detectors you know anyone who has a Google camera um flood light you can obviously set it to go on and stay
on to a certain amount of time and and the type of movement but it sounds to me or at least what I'm looking at this particular um bylaw will eliminate uh a property owner's right to protect their property
uh I don't believe there is a car out for it's correct so like I said before Nick Nick um Our Town Administrator doesn't have um this was a Nick creation of the creation of the school uh the select
board rightfully so and um it just hasn't been a lot of discussion on it I I attempted myself to to find um discussion beyond the meeting okay approve so I know I know that Town Council who did review this will have a
lot to add um to our discussion on Wednesday about it um but are there any kind of I say softballs for Nick maybe you could uh pitch at him leave him alone not necessarily to Nick but responding to something member steel
said just a minute ago absolutely about the select board making decisions and are they the best ones to make decisions uh Karen sent around an email to the whole committee with some information that I have related to this uh short version is our law is very
similar to a law from new Marboro Massachusetts and one of the attachments I had it's called like mlu decision was the Attorney General ruling on the new Barbor law and saying yes it's fine but the Attorney General did say about that law that has a lot of similarities to
this one they said you don't have any standards or criteria that will guide the select board to making this determination so the eternal General did not prevent them from putting this into law but they did say it's really not good that you don't have standards or
criteria for how you decide these things so so I I share member Steel's concern about the cect board making decisions okay thank you Jay Judy yeah and in sort of Unison here to
this um if I had an issue with the water M here I would go to the DPW and and feel as though I'm going to get the best um
outcome from town from the town on a specific issue and I think something like this lighting does my lighting you know is my lighting justify
by a you know a very good part of our town the select board but where is the um as to what Jay was saying guidelines um things to follow it would seem to me that the planning
board um who has to know all of these regulations when they're approving things lighting um setbacks a million things that go into what does the zoning really mean um it it should have some it should have some people that are
immersed in that particular field um to weigh in so I'm not sure if it stays with the select board that they aren't um obligated in some
way to confer with even conservation although forget that um they work for select board but some some channel
of expertise to be um waigh in thank you thank you Judy any other questions for um Mr Milano Lori Nick I don't know if you have any context around this but
we we've talked about it potentially having been through the planning board previously is there like where do lighting bylaws typically go General bylaws or zoning do you do you have any knowledge of that I believe Council had looked at
that as um when it first came up a couple of years ago um and I think it I I don't know if there's a clear Trend I know initially it was you know one pathway was zoning um but we we as alluded um Jay referenced the new mber
that was a general bylaw I don't know if that was the first that came across or if there are other examples I I believe it's been treated um differently kind of place to place okay thanks thank
you do anybody have any more questions from Mr Milano as it pertains um to this specific lighting bylaw General bylaw or I guess anything else that we've discussed this evening okay okay um Smo this looks like
no more questions or uh comments uh for you um so I think um being said I think uh if you'd like to leave the meeting you may I really appreciate you coming and Shining some light on a couple of
these couple of these issues that we're trying to tackle tonight and um please come back on Wednesday if you want thank you for the invitation and thanks everybody for the work on the comments and the warrant and helping us get that out the door uh much
appreciated it's it's should be in mailboxes it's it's up on the website so um thank you all for your help on uh closing the loop on the warrant itself and obviously if any other question come up uh feel free to reach out uh give me a call or sh me an email thank you
appreciate it have a nice so much you gra one you know what um no usually now after uh discussion or U you know uh a speaker usually we kind of just segue into discussion but I think it's appropriate I like how we ended with the
lighting bylaw and uh Our member Jay funling our thir year member did some work on this for us to kind of fill the Gap Jay thank you Jay distributed via email through Karen um some things that he put
together and um I uh Jay asked for the opportunity to present and show was work so uh obviously I said yes and Jay please FL is yours thank you very much yes you all should have gotten an email from Karen right before the meeting started with copies of lighting by law
in case you need those uh the presentation I'm about to do and two things related to the new Morrow borrow law I'm going to mispronounce that one is their annual report which you can scroll through it and find the law and find the discussion at town meeting and
then also the uh attorney general's comments on that which I've already alluded to so let me share my screen let's see I have to click share that's key if I say slid show does that
work okay great so there are two bylaws in front of us one is the protection against light trespass if my light is shining in your house and it bugs you um that's what that one's about and I have a few issues with that including the
issue that memb steel and I talked about just a minute ago but I have a lot fewer issues in that one than with the dark sky Protection Law so I'm going to focus on that so I I'll go through this I'm going to be sort of assuming people read it or
people can go back and read it I will say two things we should know to start the discussion a couple things from this Dark Skies by law there's the definition of the term fully shielded a fully shielded outdoor light only shines down it does not shine sideways it does not
shine up so if you look at the picture on the left that's a fully shielded light on the right that looks like the light I have in front of my house that looks like I walked down my street all my neighbors have lights that look like that those are lights that are not fully
shielded uh the bylaw does require newly installed lights to be fully shielded current lights is going to be a subject of discussion in a slide or two and one other thing that comes up is the light temperature this talks about the light color the light
temperature uh it says outdoor lights must be less than 2700k so that's the left hand side of that chart it's the orangish light not the bluish light so those are a couple big subjects in this bylaw all right and I'm going to go some
through my major concerns I I do want to say that I I have enough concerns with this one I I don't feel it can be implemented as a bylaw as written I think it needs some work um so let me go through my concerns
from largest to smallest first one a house porch light you have one like I showed like a lot of us have does it need to be swapped out for a fully shielded light well I'll start by e in top left and say no because the bylaw specifically says that new lights need
to be fully shielded what new lights implies that current lights don't need it but if you read the part of the bylaw that says intention it says it's intended that current lights not otherwise affected by this bylaw must be made compliant within two years not
entirely sure what that means and it also says pre-existing lights need to be brought into compliance within two years but the first paragraph says that pre-existing lights don't need to comply if they get an outdoor lighting permit
seriously so I'm not sure how to parse all of these uh are you I'm like just are you kidding me okay thanks for doing this St on to the next Slide the phrase require that
pre-existing luminaries not otherwise affected by this bylaw may be compliant with this bylaw within two years yeah I I thought about that I thought well compliant with the bylaw it says new need to be fully shielded so maybe it doesn't mean my porch light but then what does not otherwise affected by this
bylaw mean what does this phrase mean at all if it doesn't mean I need to swap out my porch I'm not sure and I will say as I said this bylaw is based on the bylaw from new maror I'm getting better at
pronouncing that but we made a few changes the new maror law said we encourage people to be compliant within a few years this one says we require people to be compliant within a few years so that's different uh porch light do I need to
change my porch light color to be the warm light not the end of the world but do I need to do it or not uh if I get an outdoor lighting permit can I keep my current light bulb uh I've got some quick math at the bottom walked down my block a lot of
houses have two to five non-conforming lights if we do need to replace them the cheapest one I found at Home Depot was $40 each $80 to $200 per household if it's $100 per house 10,000 households that's a million dollar that the town is
spending not out of the town's budget but out of the people's budget I I I'm not saying this was intended I'm just trying to figure out where it might lead us next slide town-owned street lights it says that Outdoor Lighting on public
properties must be modified to comply within two years okay we own 30 3,300 street lights the town of Milton owns them I asked DPW what color they are and it was confirmed that the color is 4,000k so
you know sort of a middle of the road blue that means they don't fit the requirement they need to be uh 2800 we bought these street lights in 2017 $750,000 was the line item in the
warrant but that was offset by a grant from eversource and we also got lower bills because we're replacing eversource employees sitting here conflict of interest blah blah blah um and also we're getting lower bills because they're more efficient street
lights are we going to exchange are we going to swap all these uh all 3,300 that are less than 10 years old to get a new color it won't be lower bills because they're not more efficient we won't have a grant uh usually replace about $100 per
year sorry 100 lights per year if we do this we'll be replacing 30 lights per week um I should stop and take a breath comments questions so far you probably didn't include any lights that have motion detectors right you would know a lot of people do yeah
that's what you're talking about I I didn't understand the question residential lights okay motion detectors a lot of people you know how you said it was going to be 40 bucks per house lot of people have motion detectors so you wouldn't see it she walked oh she say it's more expensive it would be more expensive Yeah by wait you do a goog 40
bucks is not gonna be no um new Malboro is out in the western part of the state by New York Pittsfield is a big state a big town compared to new marbor as is great barington um this might make sense out
there where you know you got miles of nothing in little towns so you want to be able to see the stars first of all you can see a lot more stars just out there today proba here in the Greater Boston area do you have do you have our
dark sky protection by law in front of you our can you read the first sentence to protect the rural character of the town I highlighted that because I was wondering what town she was talking they changed it I have the natural beauty which which one are you at did they they
I I have oh well that's that's point two to protect the natural beauty of a dark sky number one ohal character you're right sorry Lor and the dark sky the new Marboro law is a rural town where they R for people listening to home I don't know new
Marboro is a rural Town that's absolutely true Jay I really appreciate what you've done to put this together but I think this is the silliest thing I've ever read ever I'm not done not yours not yours no I didn't mean I'm not done okay I appreciate I think a man do
you have a comment or a question for Jay as what was presented thus far I was gonna ask if no one has asked for how we compare to the other towns um when it comes to the uh bylaws or around the lighting I will tell you I took a peek at a
website that linked to 50 different Massachusetts bylaws about dark skies and I thought oh I can look at these quickly the 50 different bylaws were all 50 different bylaws so I didn't look at them closely um there are Dark Skies laws there are Dark Skies laws in the
Metro Boston area this is none of them had this wording you know this wording is based on new Bor B so I don't know how to answer your question I'll say there are Dark Skies laws in the Metro Boston I'm just learning about it so that's why I'm just I'm just trying to understand um I just
um out of curiosity is there one in Boston the city of Boston I don't know city of Cambridge Somerville Cambridge and Somerville I believe so but don't yeah I believe so I'm just wondering whether there are other towns are similarly situated like the town of just
look quiny Quin How would how would this even be enforced I mean this seems just so silly everybody the whole question of enforcement is a whole other ball of wax and when I said I don't have many issues with the other
bylaw the enforcement issues I I do have with the other bylaw um we always have enforcement issues but you know if I could Jay you want to just kind of move move along maybe we can um next oh this is this this is one the bylaws in four
different places refer to an outdoor lighting permit and I will say the new Marboro bylaw just talked about a special permit and the Attorney General said no no don't say special permit that's a specific meaning so that's one change we made to ours instead of saying special permit we say outdoor lighting
permit but we never say what it is and the four times it's referred to are to my mind four sort of different situations but we never do say you need an outdoor lighting permit if you're going to build a building we never say that we never
say there's one place that says if you're going to do any modification that requires an outdoor lighting permit you have this restriction I don't know when you require an outdoor lighting permit um I have a question so I think under the definitions it does provide what an outdoor lighting means so it means a
temporary or permanent lighting that is installed located or used in such a manner as to cause light rays to shine Outdoors which I think is the purp of outdoor lining anyway right is does not forbid outdoor L light rays to shine outdoor bylaw does not forbid outdoor
lighting well no I'm just saying that like for a permit right so I guess if you're seeking a permit you're seeking a permit for outdoor lighting which is described defin on page two as temporary permanent lighting that is installed located or used in such a manner as to
cause light rays without giving a measurement of the locks of the light um to shine out doors I guess I would say since the p is capitalized I expected a definition of outdoor lighting permit or even if not a definition somewhere in here tell me who needs an outo lighting
permit when do you need it what does it get exactly how much does it cost how much does the permit cost it does Define what an applicant is that would be it does yes it does it does so but anyway I'm just wondering whether we
can infer based on permit and outo lining that's and the permit granting Authority is select board yes yeah yes that that that was the only part of the information that we know about the permit just we don't have the definition of permit oh my gosh the select board doesn't have enough to do I guess Y and
also what the cost continue J okay sorry sorry j easy this is a Hot Topic yeah keep going the next one is brief any person violating a provision by law shall be guilty of a misdemeanor I I I don't know if a town bylaw can
create a misdemeanor I don't know I tried to look it up I did not succeed I do know that this line was in the new Marboro law but if you look at the Town report that I sent you during town meeting they scratched this out um so
misdemeanors are also punishable by um house time or County time that's uh so I look that up today so we this would be easy enough to amend but we may not want to be I don't know if bylaws can create misdem remainers those are my biggest
ones a couple other ones and this one was already previewed by one of our members at home oh Judy has her hand up Judy um just quickly if I could I know we want to see the whole presentation but wouldn't a
misdemeanor and I asked this to all the lawyers on our committee um involved now the police department yes I mean and so now the police have to come down look at my lighting
perhaps and who's going to tell them that it's a misdemeanor do you do you know what I'm trying to say lawyers help me out here in other words there has to be a law on the books for the police to
determine that you're in violation of the law you know you're driving on the wrong side of the road or something and the police can easily understand that that that is a prohibited thing and issue you a
citation which may or may not lead to a misdemeanor but a misdemeanor is a court court thing am I am I correct it's a milem a mil so defend yourself no misdemeanor is a law that's
prolongated by the general court signed into law actually but by the governor that is punishable up to two and one half years in the house of correction so a Mis commean like a felony which is a a sentence five or years to State's prison or more um you know that's a liberty
interest it is Liberty you for outdoor lighting you're I'm aren't you entitled to a jury trial on a misdemeanor too in District Court you are so in quinsey District Court you can elect a jury trial if you're
charge with a violation of the dark protection bylaw how can our Police Department know your lights are a misdemeanor lights my Google cam lights okay we're we're gonna we're
gonna move on from thein this is oh it's fascinating the next one has already been brought up on this call there is not an exception for holiday lights and if you remember the definition of fully shielded it only shines down yeah there might be some holiday lights that are
fully shielded but I've never seen them and and what about the um East Milton Square that Park area where they're putting lights so no more no more lights no more lights so and I've got a list of some towns at the bottom I did look at some not all of them exempt holiday lights but you know Cambridge has a dark
sky law that Arlington does Newton does Welsley does they all exempt Holiday Lights explicit I like how you did that thank you I had fun with that I appreciate it I bet you did okay next state owned lights
we've got the DCR roads like blueo Parkway and we've got i93 are these required to comply no I would think so no they're because those are highways they're not considered good question but a good question to ask that's so and
then I started thinking actually okay yeah go no no please you go I think you might touch on this I I don't know if I will but I I we have not had someone discuss this with us but I'm imagining what response might
be and one response that I might expect to hear is we won't enforce that part I bet we will every porch light in town doesn't needs to be replaced within two years well we're not going to enforce that holiday lights are illegal we didn't mean that we're not going to enforce that we have to replace every
street line in town at the town's expense no we didn't mean that I what about um homes on a on a national register of historical places so do you have to change those lights within two years I mean yeah I mean
that's why I started with the our current lights do current lights need to be updated or not I cannot figure it out maybe they'll say no but um what else oh and also we we we talked about this you know
I expect this to be discussed with this issue and we also the subject also came up when we were looking at the zoning bylaws which is well Town Council reviewed this we think the attorney General will say it's okay if Town Council says something's okay to me that says it's not illegal we can create the
law but that's that's not the goal that's a bare minimum for example it is not illegal for us to write a bylaw that says the town has to replace all 3,300 street lights in two years I'm sure Town Council would say yep that's a law you can make it doesn't mean we should so
I'm just anticipating that might be a response and [Music] um now after this I have different concerns I will at the very least flip through these so that
the people at home can screenshot them uh I don't know we seem to be having fun with this maybe I should talk okay protect the RO part the account definitions definitions you know I like my definitions uh public lighting uh why do we choose this light
color again you I sent y all this present a you can look at it the people at home can pause their video uh enforcement is a question it like there's one part we talk about offenses one part we talk about violations I'm not sure if they're
the same um and then is it a civil penalty or criminal penalty maybe some of the people on this side of the table can dig into this well you start using words like misdemeanor no yeah and you agree
Tom oh and then this gets to what member steel said earlier we should have written down in the bylaw if it's going to be enforced by a a ticket let's say which is what 21d means you're supposed to say who the enforcing person is the person writing a
ticket right now we only reference 21d in one part of our bylaws and we say who the enforcing person is sorry this is not as fun as talking about holiday lights um but it's something that I think should take a look um and then the last few slides I
just pointed out where our wording is different than the new Marboro uh wording and I can yeah for example um at the very beginning uh it's it gets into our
things grandfathered or not uh at the very beginning we say if you have a lawfully pre-existing outdoor lighting you're in compliance if you get a permit within two years I don't really know what that means and newo did not have wording like
that then what else um it gets into the you know well first of all we say outdoor lighting permit they say special permit okay but then this is also the place where we say things need to be brought into Conformity within a two-year anniversary of the law good New Marble didn't say that I have a third
one oh still on the same theme you know we say new Marboro said we want to encourage but not zoom is in in my way encourage but not require that if you have a pre-existing light you have to become in compliant and we say we
encourage complying immediately and then require so thanks for J if you people encourage me I'm going to do more of this don't you learn yeah this needed it yeah it did it and this
is one of the chances where I I appreciate J and all the work he put in to really fill in a lot of the holes um for us as a committee so Jay thank you very much we really appreciate I I really appreciate know we do
um nice work Judy oh Judy um this question goes to Jay um does anyone know where New marbar is yeah yes Peter Lori knows yeah so out
out by um between great baring and Pittsfield out in Western Massachusetts very rural area Judy very rural yes so I guess that question goes to we we this town just do not any
longer fit into world the Judy you saying we're not the country well yeah I kind of am and um to go to
to real Dark Skies um that means if you're in total compliance with dark skies um and I'm laughing because I actually drove by my own house in a place where
total dark skies were enforced you were in the dock the minute you hit the timeline no street lights um no outdoor lighting highly regulated and I actually drove by the
street that goes to my street until I got half a mile down the road and I said oh something's lit up and I realized it was a guard house to a very big um Golf Community and it was so
unlit that I had to stop and think I had a bang a UI on a road that there was no other car and um I had to count trees pillow birdie trees to find I'm almost
there two more lots and I'll be at my street that's how dark it is we are and then I would come back here and feel like I was at a stadium just coming in our town we have street lights
we have you know people that are worried for security reasons will keep an outdoor light on during the evening a porch light or you know a light attached to their house
um and there's just no way to enforce this we are not Dark Skies new Marboro perhaps fits the bill for this in a rural area where
there may be few street lights outside of the little town center anyway thank you for that and um this whole to Allison's point I think we would all have to be
hibernating if we all didn't know and we do know that this all happened because of um lighting that is at a
public town-owned place um and the lighting has bothered neighbors so I'm wondering you know sort of in the back of my head shouldn't this not be townwide but
be more you know if you're at Pop's Pond if you were by conservation land and more centered on that than entirely townwide I know it's just a thought thank you thank you Judy
appreciate that the end very much this be a good idea to talk about the other light related bylaw given the this that looks so innocent compared to what we're we've been seeing here through Jay's
presentation I mean shining a light in somebody's window was a little bit different than just shutting down all the lights in the town but I if you I don't want to be preemptive here Tom if you wanted to have further discussion oh no I just as long as the I think the committee wants
to discuss I mean I think it seems like we've all had the chance to consume this a little bit and go through it uh Bri do you have a comment on sure well I think both laws weren't well thought out you
know this too many questions about them um and uh so you're talking about the citizens petitions or the lighting the two lighting I was just talking about the lighting laws the light trespass get to that well a couple things oh just stand the lighting I guess just stand the lighting just in the lighting keep
in lighting us well I'll say this for both is that like not having somebody who's an expert to come in and talk to you is like really not helpful like Nick talking about the citizen position and he's like I didn't do it you know like what's the meaning behind it is also
frustrating but the lighting we have no experts to talk to about I mean maybe there is something legitimate we have nobody to there's no way to make a decision on this except it doesn't seem like it was well thought out there's a lot of questions I don't think the select board is qualified to enforce
these things like none of them I would suspect ah it sounds like it' be subjective you know which isn't right um and yeah because in it sold discretion and a condition determined by the select board to constitute a public
Hazard so not only they enforcement Brian point they also determine basically they're they're judge jury I mean they're everybody an ex it's bake it's just the whole both of
them are vag yeah um Christmas lights you can't do Christmas lights anymore Holiday Lights Halloween lights whatever and I don't know there's no experts like I did a I was on the other side of this issue with noise in another town and people had to be certified by the town
in order to judge if you were over a noise level going take a class but there's nothing like that that was my other question like how do you measure like the illumination so like the the protection against light trespass usually for trespassing there's a amount of footage that you have to it becomes
trespassing unless it's your own private property so if the light's just shining over I mean I don't know what is what is what is I mean now I'm moving on to to the other one on the light trespass and how do you how do you measure the Lux level which is the illumination of a light
that constitutes trespassing it doesn't say any of that it just says illuminate light trap I like I said it's the Google cam it's there's you know flood lights there's all sorts of Lights we all share you know light lighting I think it's
like heart you know when you see it you know it's a there was a number of years ago and still there um private skating rink built on Canton Avenue on the on the way Hill that was a big issue for the town for a long time but it wasn't
anything they could do about it because you know it's private property and they had a l on I'm assuming that this would address that and maybe another uh issue for the town where there have been a number of complaints I mean I think the really the the second
law the late trespass law is set up to police the blatant uh issues of of you know somebody not being all that neighborly and setting up either flood lights or over lighting the property Etc
where you could address it that seems to me to make sense that's the only thing that seems to to make sense Lori I wonder also if there will be an issue with like the commercial properties and you know there's been the signage and
some issues with signs and the illuminated signs and if the commercial property the fruit Center is in a residential area like I wonder what their lighting is like and has this even been like has did anybody look at what
this would do to that business and is that going to create other issues for them and maybe it's not an issue but I mean any other well they have lights on at night for security all businesses do that well may they can't anym well same
as Place places of worship in the town they light light their parking lots and they say oh well it's for safety but they don't even pay taxes right right so I mean and those are all in residential areas that's right you're absolutely right especially on Blue Hill Parkway those law churches yeah exactly so
churches though and I don't think really you know the law is going to say we're going to carve you out like I mean it totally defeats the purpose of the whole thing right cuz those are the biggest light right yes you know my 40 watt front light bulb 100 watt yeah I can't even
I'm just looking LS and they had an outdoor lighting ordinance task force that met for three years before they came up with there and then before it went to the city council who's this Cambridge they did a study
they so I mean we have 90 committees you'd think we would have a committee for this that would actually look into it instead of because this is a general bylaw it removes itself from a planning board correct Jay or a uh another
article brought forth but there's no public hearings necessary well and this included you know inspectional Services License Commission electric Department Community Development they they engaged a lighting
consultant to provide technical expertise and guidance this is I mean I think it's a great idea but I think you got to do it properly not take new Malboro a Ral Town
buing New York I'm G to go back to back to uh Mr Milano who whose office isn't being flooded with lots of light complaints at this point you know to run through what Cambridge did here for no
good reason would seem like a tremendous waste of money well I would disagree it seems to me if I may speak um after my question to Mr Milano that these two bylaws are targeted to very
specific residential areas or residences in Milton I mean like he said it's not that the whole town is knocking on his door and flooding the town with complaints I saw a great picture in the Boston Globes several years back where
they did an aerial picture of eastern Mass or like you know yeah generally within 128 and when you looked at the picture in fact the author pointed out Milton and he said you can clearly see where you crossed in Aon and I'm telling
you it was dark and he specifically he or she I'm know the author but specifically pointed out Milton and how dark it is and how the contrast with even just doorchester in the Lower Mills Area mhm it's quite it's just surprising it's kind of a cool P I've tried to go
back and find it and I can't unfortunately but that's back when we were R when thata fum still I I'll play Devil's Advocate a little bit for the light trespass in favor of the light trespass law my favorite part about this law is that if
it gets passed is that it would exist and what I can imagine is two neighbors sort of politely disagreeing about oh you're light is shining in my bedroom and if one of the neighbors could point out you know there is a bylaw against this that might that would hopefully
settle things before it even gets into any enforcement neighbor there's a bylaw can you turn off your light oh it's against the bylaw okay I will I like that a lot I I do think and I didn't spend any time time about this I do think there are nitpicky things that
need to be you know what's a violation versus what's an offense um is it really per day or is it per and some of the 21d questions that I'm not a lawyer but
I I'll write them down in S A Town Council specifically about light trespass um maybe it's fine maybe it needs to be cleaned up a little bit I don't know I I I think I see a reason for the light trespass one to exist you know I kind of look at this
and and Jay I appreciate like the thought of like this could really kind of help disputes um well you say hey there's something on the books about this you know maybe some say oh sorry okay I'll I'll back off I I think that's a good um
you know I think that's something good from it um my my fear is like a weaponization you know what I mean oh yeah um I'm suffering from light pollution yeah just you know Jay I think it's the same thing I like the good citizen and I like that you'd care
enough about your neighbor to shut off the light that's blasting in their house I mean that's like the right thing to do I'm also afraid that you know some people unlike the people all in this committee maybe a little unreasonable and look to kind of utilizes like I said I'm just
speculating and and um just in terms of that but I I appreciate that uh comment Jay because you would hope that's how it would how it would work Julie hey there um I just you know Jay
listening to you I feel like you're obviously a good neighbor and that's what you know you would you would do but I have a feeling that just by watching Facebook and everything else nobody goes to anybody's house anymore nobody adults nobody says hey there's an issue can we work it out they call the police and
then all of a sudden before you know we we've given some sort of legal ability for people to go after a neighbor um because what we should have is a good curtain law and not a you know lighting law and who can do what dark shade this
is just going to get you know it's going to get weaponized and I think we all know it they'll see pictures on everything Milton Facebook yeah and that's all it is it's going to be people trying to see now we can get the police involved and now it's going to be and I just feel I just feel bad for whatever officer going to have to answer the call
and go up there with some sort of light meter and say well this is the bylaw at you know midnight or whatever so I just kind of think think and I appreciate the work that went into this and um I wish we still had the cows and everything at thatch of farms but we don't um yeah
that's about it thanks guys we we would like good fences make good neighbors do good lights make good neighbors Val good neighb I like my neighbors flood lights because they
shine onto my driveway helps me out does that they take societ good people does anybody have anything else uh we're g to try to get someone in here on this one from the select board hopefully next week I will throw out I'm
on vacation with my kid next week I'm not going to be in a meeting I'm not going to call into a meeting if someone comes in here from the SL board speaking to this is there someone who will take up the tor Jay I don't know you might want to call
no you own this now man Jay Jay I could not have you take time away from your kids when you're away I would skip this meeting myself I'll take the torch I really appreciate you preparing this and getting in the Weeds on this so I will make it my point and maybe recruit a few
others to uh to give me a hand and this is very comprehensive and it goes beyond just how much it's going to cost it goes into the land language the verbage everything else so I uh you can count on me Jay thank you I I have one question
for Jay was the judge from The Simpsons or The Simpsons that's what I thought yeah Judy Judy um Jay I didn't check my email before meeting is your presentation
available for us to um review yes I believe Karen sent it out just a minute or two before the meeting meeting started okay perfect have a good vacation thank you okay um at the time you know I'd like to I'm not gonna not
pushing us to end at any time I'd let like to engage in a brief discussion about the other two okay maybe start with the law appropriation because I I and I'm saying this in anticipation of Wednesday or Thursday's meeting
where um potentially we could would take a vote on these I think we would be ready after we spoke to Town Council and also be looking forward to a vote on maybe the planning board article so so don't forget that but um on the lighting one we're going to wait until the select
people I'd like to just confirm and I would probably have that confirmed the next couple of days just to see if they can make that I it would be the 18th which is a Tuesday y so um so you want to discuss petition one yeah i' just like to discuss the the law one
first um you know if there's ideas thoughts or questions to kind of propose to the committee just to kind of think think about it um I um I I have a lot to say about it
actually but like I don't see how you can defund a legal department because you don't like the position that the the town has taken on a particular legal M matter that's what I get out of it you
don't like that the Selectmen or the uh people in the town voted a certain way so you're going to defund the legal department so that they can't perform something and put a lot of things at risk not just the mbpa act or whatever but you put a lot of other things at
risk in the town if they get sued for certain things it kind doesn't make sense to me it's very irresponsible I think totally um and especially given what Nick said that there is currently pending litigation and we know what
legal fees can add up to and I think just by looking at the initial appropriation of 28300 that's that's not a lot when you think about that is that is good one Proctor in one month possibly or two so
I don't think that that amount is incredibly huge and then I also feel that you know there's a lot of talk right now about the school n you know you know there's a lot of um a deficit with the schools so are you
going to go to another account because something happened there I I just think that that should stay the way it is because of pending litigation potential litigation arising and you're already you've already spent $80,000 but you're going to leave leave a an appropriation
of just 33 with a deficit um then you're going to have firms that are not going to want to work with this town well just think to that point as Nick said if if Nick if they come forward for an appropriation we're well within our right as a warning committee to say no yeah we're not paying that bill right
and then they can't pay it I know Peter yeah I I think this just set a b president as well so any hundred uh citizens can decide that they'd rather have a playground than uh special it I mean it well this could go any this could go off
the rails go absolutely anywhere I think we know why it's here and I agree with Brian completely on this I think this is this is just bad to do and um I would vote no should it come to a vote yeah I would
vote no too um I I think on this um on this matter you know um if you know the MBTA being the focus I mean a lot of people voted to say no on that that's right and um you know do
we does the town see it through do we play seven Innings of a 9 in ball game no no no so I I think you know that that's just things I'm thinking of do we don't we pursue the matter and I know other issues have come up I'm not as closely affiliated with that but um just
what I read and people are saying so um I don't know some something to think about I I'd like committee I know we I know I'm hearing vote vote but we do have Town Council coming in I'd like him to opine for us in the public on some of um the validity and obviously some of
the questions we may have Jay um one I think I agree with everything I heard here it's it's not the way to run a town budget uh certainly the other article and I'm I'm trying to stay on this topic but the other article is like a symbolic
messaging here's how time meeting feels I'm wondering if this also is or could be a symbolic article if the warrant committee's recommendation and I alluded to this when I was talking to Mr Milano if the warrant committee's recommendation were not to transfer
$255,000 if the warrant committee's recommendation were to transfer $1 and if that is keep in mind the warrant committee's recommendation is the article that goes in front of town meeting and it can be amended but that that's what town meeting starts our
debate on our recommendation so if we recommend transferring $1 I'm with you give me a second we recommend transferring $1 that's the article in a town meeting if they don't make an amendment that's what they vote on and then I mean $1 obviously is
symbolic then town meeting could say we feel this way we want to send this signal or no we don't feel send feel this way we don't want to send this signal so that might be something we want to consider that is something I would want to do others
have no please Peter I would think that there is a possibility regardless of what we say the town meeting will pass this petition I agree um so I would basically want to uh send the message of no to this for the reasons we just
discussed period I don't want to amend it I don't want anything to it I just want to basically say no thank you I mean a dollar is symbolic but if it's a dollar can it opens the door for exactly what we talked about forj you can put it in
there and hey maybe I get a dollar maybe this time I get half of it maybe it's whatever I I just say no we can do it yeah I mean I agree like I think the presedent the sets he's Nick said this is he doesn't know if this has ever happened before right the president
success you could do this for everything all over the board 100 people can sign anything and they could go they could we could you could be sitting forever going over stuff it's just bad precedent I mean like I would say I hope the Warren committee like unanimously
just says no just so that they don't have this so you're just opening up a Pandora box I think anyone else how you feeling oh I can I absolutely concur with everything Macy Peter Brian
just said light and I think I just said also too that in 27 years our expenses were more than $333,000 right so hello so it's it's irresponsible sot
especially pending litigation on some serious cases going on in court that's I mean 33,000 then you already in a deficit with 80 spent no one would represent the town after that I wouldn't as a law firm be it
would be dangerous it' be so dangerous if you try to yeah retain a law firms end on the hook yeah yeah it's bad it's just not in good faith sued by a law firm yeah then there you go then they're like let goes up and everyone pays Insurance because nobody's going to take
that line down yeah okay um any conversation on this is something we really haven't spent I think a ton of time with what I haven't heard a lot about was the um the planning board having the town town meeting tell the planning
board to yeah well that's that's sort of in line with changing the budget you know you can't have 100 citizens tell the planning board what to do that doesn't make any sense and aren't they elected keep in mind it's not 100 citizens it's town meeting well they will be town meeting it'll go
to 300 citizens yeah so don't represent the town it's 300 it's and again it could possibly wind up being passed by town meeting as well the petition number two uh petition number one setting it up petition number two uh voting yes but I
think the outcome is going to be the same as it was the first time around which is that it'll go to the town the town will vote and I just don't see this it's not it's I think this is a nine ining game so I'm not a seven inning game and I think
there's still a lot of people in town who um come up in in favor of fighting this yeah I mean town meeting sent it you know it went to the town from town meeting town meeting said no and now we're going back and they're saying do
it again yeah I think that the town was very clear on that vote it was a no vote I think the town is confident in outcome of the second go around would be just the same as the first I don't want to get too deep in the weeds but the town voted no on a plan Town voted
no a plan that had a t of units planned for Granite Street East Milton came out and said no to that does that mean the town said no to any 25% plan I I don't know I don't know um but yeah and I
would like to point out that unlike the one that moves money the other one has no teeth it's just what is the sense of the town meeting so so I don't know if the town meeting voted for it wouldn't the planning U board have to pay a little more
attention to it than it does right now I I think it would be encouraging them to pay attention to it sure but it wouldn't actually compel them to act I don't I don't think it can compel them to act okay it would expressing their sentiment yeah the only no by The Ballot Box yeah
you're right either independent independently elected okay does anybody have any any other thoughts or comments just we' covered a lot a lot of interesting issues Jay's presentation no I mean I think I don't
we see maybe we could vote on all four things but yeah I'd like think it I think it would benefit everyone the committee our comment uh the town I think just to hear from Town Council on these and just have them answer our questions and and also board remember we
still have our site plan issue that we're going to cover on Wednesday and those specific questions regarding what is do we um comply with the statute concerning um short-term rentals and some of those other questions that I
submitted to Town Council so it would be a really a discussion on what we've discussed lighting the two citizens petitions and um finishing up that site plan and answering those questions it seems like we were
there and I think these questions uh would like to need to get answered to maybe get us to a vote um does anybody have anything else they'd like to share or discuss uh we're on track for Wednesday let's
see what we can get done in a reasonable time on Wednesday I don't want to call us back Thursday Thursday could be a vote day I will try to get a select board member in here by next week to address the lighting and potentially take a vote so a few more meetings and
then we got our special town so like to wrap that up I've asked Brian to start working on the uh the bylaws uh comments uh for us and um so that's really it Ron
Ron hey Tom um I was wondering is it possible to share Jay's presentation with our select board so they know the types of questions that that this uh committee will ask or at least some of the
questions um I open is that open meeting violation like I don't know how can we sure that the opposite it's a public document yeah right right okay anyone can view it at this point it's it's out there Ron it's not a
uh that'd be up to the chair of the select board I think just to put it on their agenda and and just address it I did see a meeting where they sent it to us um Nick had indicated there might be some more commentary on it from them but
there's nothing scheduled at this point yeah I mean I I think there's some great questions and things that were raised I'm going to assume it's well-intentioned like everything that comes before us and they just haven't had a chance to address these issues so if they had a chance to look at it
beforehand maybe they have good answer maybe they intentionally written it this way or maybe they just didn't think about it and it gives them time to ponder I guess are you talking about an email or or doing a in song and dance I don't think they need a song and
dance I mean there are adults they can read an email they can read a PowerPoint I get Applause tonight I mean I did very well did great but you know the select board sends us the Articles right to advise the town right so it's not like
we're not we're not going back upstairs to try to tell them like oh do this for us and make it better or we want you to do this they they can set it down in terms of the information sharing I would hope and trust that they would they' look into it but you know we're fed the
Articles y we're not article draft usually before the warrant is printed yeah I have my uh meeting tomorrow which will be televised and Milton cable access with Bob his our moderator and I will be discussing the Articles as
printed thus far I'm not going to be talking about any of our discussions and um BR J pres yeah I I know that would quite an eye opener um but so like like that I'm I'm not going to be commenting to the public um and they're going to be getting everything
at once so there'll be a void there um I don't know why I mentioned this but I just thought it was a good time to read good is that common that you would do that that happens all every coffee with Bob yeah yeah okay yeah I didn't I
didn't all my years I I never thought it happened I think brought it up to me J yeah you did you brought it up and then I watched our our our chair from last year do it so so don't
watch I'll do my best to represent you well um but again like I I'm not being this but anybody else have something to say before I entertain a motion anybody motion to adjourn second
in favor I I I okay we are adjourned thank you Warren committee thank you Milton I don't know what to do with the extra hour y before 9