##VIDEO ID:vcI4pNAJ9xU## all right well it is um I believe 5:30 you made it just under the wire right um all right I'm going to call the meeting to order and this is the regular this is the work session city council work session for in interest of February 3rd and with us this evening we have a chief Falls we have um Community David AEL Jasper kral Lis um do I have to give all of your titles to no not for the work session right all right council members we have Kathleen re and Peter Victory Claudia Lacy Ryan G and then we also have Gary Peters and Ali pus and then also Aon bumer with a a2s so we only have one item on our work session agenda it's the water treatment plan presentation and meeting and discussion who wants to go first I I can I can just kind of get things kicked off I I always like to say what are the goals an is also remote I I want to talk about like what are the goals of the meeting today what are we trying to accomplish and hopefully we can get there but essentially we want to we want to be able to get to the point where we can continue this project moving forward one way or another um and we're here to answer any questions I did prepare I got some questions from a council member um that I shared with everybody so I I think there were good questions about just different scenarios and things like that so I thought well I'm going to type this up for for one of the council members and I'm just going to share with everybody so I did give that to everybody here I sent it out earlier this morning or late morning today um and I'd like to go over that um just if there's I don't know if everybody's had a chance to look at it but there's questions related to um The Mixing you know I think there's been a lot of talking about mixing of like w number three with our treated water and at what extent do we do that and what ENT can we do that before we hit that um health-based standard for manganese um and you know Iron Iron's the other thing that kind of Travels With Or that usually is with manganese and that's where you get that brown color in your water so um I don't know what if you guys want me to go through the memo I can definitely do that um if there's specific questions related to the memo or not related to the memo we also have the PowerPoint from the last meeting if there's specific things from there that we want to talk about I think the probably the most I don't know beneficial thing in the memo um from this morning is just the amortization schedule what can you expect from each level of project costs um what the annual payment will be what that looks like compared to what we currently generate for Revenue in the water fund and then you know depending on how we want to roll out we probably could do a three-year rollout for these rates two would be probably more optimal but three would require us to use some of our current fund balance um but it would make it a little bit easier um in the sense that it would be so much all at once you know the other question is can you backload a bond too we should talk about that in other words where maybe you pay a little less at the beginning and a little more as you progress is that an option I know there was questions about the bonding but then the other thing that we can talk about is if we get bonding money and maybe Aon you can answer this I don't know um do we have to follow certain guidelines for um so for instance labor costs do they go up and things like that because I heard from Plymouth the city manager in Plymouth I talked to him recently and he said that they got bonding money but it actually they declined it because it offset the cost I mean it offset the the savings so we need so in another they were building something I can't remember what it was and um because they got $5 million in bonding money they for the project which was 50 million whatever it was it offset the cost so much that they said why even take the bonding money is yeah that that's definitely something to consider our request right now is for 26,300 just so everybody's aware um both the house and the Senate I was talking with Andrew Myers and and Johnson Stewart on on uh Friday and they were waiting to get the bill jacket so we have a once I get the house file number and the Senate file number I'll share with everybody's kind of follow the the bill trajectory but in in that case um the amount of bonding money was a much smaller percentage of the total project cost and then that drove probably you know 10% cost increase for the project or more sounds like right because of the requirements that that are attached with the bonding money okay so there's requirements money there are so if we if we would only get a million dollars we'd have to do an analysis probably to see once if that million is enough to make us want to accept it or not or if that'll drive the cost up to million what type of requirements would change I guess so if you use so if you use State funding you're going to be subject to State prevailing weight so that's um if you're using union labor in the state it's already close U but it's going to and that would be very similar to a federal prevailing so the state require prevailing wage and I think that's it they don't have any other like bamerican American Iron and steel requirments if you use federal funds you're subject to the federal funding departments all the B American Federal as well as okay I just thought I'd throw that out because because it's something to keep in mind yeah so what was your first question I I was trying to answer it and then you went to the second question um I think about backloading wasn't it oh yeah about backloading the bond you can do that so we would work with if we wanted to do that You' work with ERS but then all these numbers that I'm that I show in the memo the amount of interest that you pay will go up right you know so you're kind of kicking the can down the road a little bit but you can limit you know you they'll basically structure the bond however we tell them do um but I would you know but there might be more people see I'm thinking down the road there'll be more people on the system to help offset those increased costs so I mean it's something I think we could at least I'd like to look at if we do if we do look at if we settle up on a project SC I think we can look at that once we get to the bonding piece and we can have Todd give us some different options just want ask I was look at that numbers seems like this home and uh that's we set up financing in such a way that tail with subscriber gr like that would be a good thing something I think we should at least look at it cons okay do we have a net positive cash flow in the water Bills versus depends on the year I mean basically I mean obviously yeah yeah yeah this last year probably not because we got our fixed you know annual principal and interest and we've got our obviously operations cost that's going to be there to some level you know you can spend less less time if there's less you know pumped water and stuff but it's yeah this this last year we're not we're probably not going to or whatever just for 24 once the numbers won't even be equal or level with our operational cost I doubt it I mean because I mean well I mean we had a decent year with connection fees and stuff I mean I think our utility the actual charges are done several hundred, you know from you know last year when it was you know it's instead of 1.7 it's 1.3 I we still had connection charges of a few hundred thousand but when you take our principal interest is close to a million now and then you got operational cost to another 6 s 800,000 I bet we'll be a little negative this year I guess yeah and you can kind of track that by if it's a wet year or if it's a dry year so you know 22 21 22 23 very dry years so we were really net positive 24 was quite wet and we're um positive likely so it's kind of a conundrum because we don't want them to use too much water because we don't have it plus we're we're limited on what we can pump but we also want them to use more water so that we get more Revenue so it's 22 a little yeah until to that point when I talked to Jasper after last week's meeting he had mentioned about at T Beach which was the just assessed Fe for the treatment plant and I thought that might be a good option if we switch um we add a flat rate on there for the treatment implant to the bill so residents know exactly what they're paying for the new treatment implant there's a line item that will in theory go away at some point and then no matter what people are using we're still getting enough to cover the bond payment whatever that may be because then we don't have to necessarily jack up rates quite as much as we would have to otherwise but then if it isn't what year we still get income to cover the bond payment I mean like a debt service fee yes so be another line item on this including like recycling SE the water surface VI that say water Tre plant and then everyone would know what they're paying that big beautiful new structure well the other I mean I like that and I know other communities have done that here's why everybody no matter how much water you use or don't use um needs the treatment PL you know needs the infrastructure so if you had one base price that everybody pays not based on how much you use it would just be based on whatever number we figured we needed I think it would be more fair more people come on you would get more they would immediately start paying right for it yeah I I think so I talked to them the mayor of um minona beach today the way they have it set up is they're going to capture this $335 a quarter per account which they only have I think 250ish accounts so they're going to capture that that'll go into their Debt Service fund for their 122 half million do water treatment plant and if they so happen to get bonding money or outside money that would go into The Debt Service fund and then um you know once that Debt Service fund has enough to pay the bond uh over the life of the bond they would stop doing that fee more of a Debt Service it's a water fund so it wouldn't be really a Debt Service fund it' be a Debt Service Reserve because it's all in it's the Enterprise fund so it's just all within that same fund different than like when we set up Debt Service funds for road projects and stuff so but I get what the Yeah so as as people come onto the system and have to pay this $100 month I think that maybe something you're alluding to too is moving to yeah whatever the billing cycle is you'd have a set a fee amount U but once we'd have enough money in this Reserve fund to pay the debt service for this plant then we would eliminate that charge I like that idea too because it's more transparent I know FL building 2022 was Jan yeah the only push back I mean the only push back we could get a little bit would be it's a little bit regressive because the people that use the least amount of water are going to it's going to be a larger component to their bill so it's like someone's are really good and actually conserves and only uses 25,000 and a quarter they're still paying whatever that fee we set but if someone uses and which the people that use the high amounts are actually the irony is they're the ones causing the the water treatment plant if they're paying the same as everyone else is it to me it's almost more fair I guess I look at the flip side to if you're going to use a lot you should pay more and you just hit them with the appropriate rates you need to hit them with but I gu cut back that revenue and then we don't have the money for the bond or say it's a super I mean this past year it was really wet May and June and July and then thankfully dried up quite a bit and August but if it's super wet All Summer Long our revenue is going to plummet and no matter what size of plant we do we're going to have to come up with that I mean combination a town home a single family or you know if you spend it all in irrigation you're still using the treatment plant right that's what I'm saying yes so I mean yeah if you use a ton of water you're benefiting but you're still paying the higher rates and we can for lack of better worry we can jack up the third tier still we can make that even more say just don't yeah yeah i' recommend maybe not making the fee too onerous That Base fee that it's almost you know use use a combination of that as well as like using third fourth fifth tiers or adding more tiers or whatever I guess or we just we adding then making the rate higher whatever I guess yeah well so one thing we could do I just popped in my my head is you could have you know your water treatment fee be tiered as well so if you are in the you know 0 to 25 or 25 to 65 or 65 and above your monthly service fee could be as more no no because then it would have it would it would fluctuate too much based on what you use that's that's way too much headache well again and it's just GNA bring more questions in to why am I paying this I only paid this last it going up you don't need to add more calls on St um if you figure out a fee it should just be the same for everybody because whether you use 20,000 or 80,000 you still need that treatment plant you know and and you would need the treatment plant whether you no matter what yeah so no matter how much you use or don't use so to Peter's question this this table not this table but um uh the table in the memo which where did that go now that up here but um the table in the memo kind of shows what the annual what was that Ed is it there um so there's roughly 2200 accounts on our system right now um you know the easy math to just kind of look at is the $30 million Bond Which is higher than what we what we what the project is but it's just out there as a round number there's the annual payment would be about 2.2 million that would equate to um $1,000 a year per account um you know if you go down to the 25 you know we we figur that out and and and come up with a number that would cover that Bond payment if that's what that was for so you know I'm guessing it' probably be around you know if you do the if you do the $25 million option one project um we'll say at that $1.9 million um we could do the math quick but we figured out with the with the fee schedule it' probably be like $80 I don't know it's quick math right probably got a better quick math mind than me but probably right around that $80 a month um month or quarter well it depends a month a quarter thousand a year basically yeah so it' be you know you're not factoring in New Growth either and I think that should be factored in and I think we can do that as that new growth comes in you can adjust that adjust it down as new grow com probably be 250 bucks 250 bucks a quarter or like 80 82 82 82 a month or 250 a quarter is where we'd be at and to put it in perspective I guess I'll put pull this up and I I can share this it's really kind of hard to see on the screen but um this is basically a bunch of different communities in Minnesota updated for 20125 and what their rates are based on a certain amount of usage so right now I have this based on sorry 10,000 gallons a month which is probably low um low in the summer but average on the q's one two and four it's probably about average so you know 30,000 a quarter I've normalized this this graph for all of uh for for monthly billing and you can see probably can't see but so I'll read it um minona Beach which is the community that we just talked about their monthly charge for using 10,000 gallons a month would be $258 a month so just for a reference my water portion of my bill for 4 three or four was $225 so for a quarter so so right now this this yellow column here is Minista so if you use 10,000 gallons or 30,000 10,000 gallons a month your bill would be 75 bucks or times that by three for the quarter so it' be 225 so we got of know what cine uses a month I but so if if we would add a if we would add a um quarterly charge I'll just do this in real time let's just say we want to add a quarterly charge of $250 it's going to double that's going to be high I was thinking like a 100 that's for quarter um so then if you go back to the output that's current state this is this is 2025 numbers yep so you know we're still right here Maple plane Mound Orno um or sorry that is incorrect the yellow didn't follow manista um we're over here now so we're at number two so we'd be at 158 a month so if you times that by three you'd be at about 4 65 per court on average and I again I will say this um I think whatever we decide we have to switch to monthly billing because the bills are going to go up and you can't have a $1,200 bill in the summer how much water using the calls be astronomical for St and everyone on the planet that's mention you can plan better your monthly bill if you use much water in June you know like we're just going to have to switch to monthly G to have to add well that's what I was going to ask because I I thought the same thing especially if you add the 200 whatever dollars it is for Jasper said it's pretty easy to add a to the bill yeah yeah that's but it's it's we did this this analysis thing you have to go around and you have to read all the meters and then you have to I there's there's going to be a cost to that and so we'd have to find out what that cost is so we would need to have we would so it's the meter read which Gary's guys do and then it's the processing from Brian's team and then you know every bill you issue you get an x amount of phone calls about your bill regardless you know if it's right wrong you know something you get a lot of calls so there's also that piece um there's processing it every month so it's a little different because there's workflows already um for our Utility Billing coordinator that you know she's set up to to do it four times a year not 12 times a year so there will be if we would go to monthly billing there would be that need to add add a position I think some of Rene's time would beated the printing and the mailing go out the window she sits there and rips every utility Mill that here I mean probably takes R from start to finish three days for sure quarter yeah I'd say probably two to three days two and a yeah I think what Allie's alluding to is if we would go to monthly we would likely use a service to send that bill out which requires us just to send a file to them and then they they generate a piece of paper it won't be like a postcard anymore it'll be like an invoice um which will give us an opportunity or could give us an opportunity to get more information out to the public monthly versus you know our quarterly newsletter we still read The Meters quarterly with them bill monthly so you read it now obviously would delay payment for a couple months but if that's kind burdensome you could and what one thing that we looked into is doing budget bu billing if any everybody's familiar with that where you get kind of what your total bill is for the year previous year and then you divide it up by 12 and then it's you know instead of paying 150 bucks for q1 and Q2 and then a th000 for Q3 it's you know you pay 200 bucks a month every month of the year or something so yeah it's an option like we we our financial or Utility Billing software is able to do it uh we have we don't offer it right now but economical option if you you know have a fixed income or you know monthly budgeting it it would help out u in that situation it would be uh voluntary you know you have to voluntarily enroll in it like you do with electric or sometimes gas um can we to that point could is there a way to switch to um online bills too we have we have that option Brian know some people opt into email or whatever four times a year too just one yeah it's four times a year whatever right and then you know that's how they but I still think even if they get email we still send out the phone card as well don't we I think depending on um some people choose to get both with the email and the hard copy so yeah there's different how about we um talk okay so here's the thing I think so the this is good and I think kind of gives staff some direction on on some options I think those should be brought back later but I think tonight what we have to do is really concentrate on WE it kind of ties together I I get that but let's let's go through and figure out if what options we want to do um and where we want to go from here and then if we have time let's go back to the um billing and rap discussion and if need be we can bring that back as well we can bring that that back but I think it's more important if you will to decide I think the the real question here maybe have get these questions answered and or then talk about the different options that we have yeah so we um I'm going to pull up the PowerPoint from the last meeting and we can kind of go through that and kind of Refresh on the the options but um I don't know Ally if you can advance it to that options sheet but basically you have option one which is the 26 million $300,000 option um that has 2200 gallons per minute plus a 600ish th000 gallon clear well which is what treated water water storage option two you basically change the filter to a steel gravity and you get rid of the clear well storage and then option three is you change the filter system to a pressure filter system and with no clear Wells so to me I kind of looking at these the clear well is and could be important um for storage into the future uh depending on growth commercial industrial housing um you know right now we're pro ing that we're going to need additional storage by 2030 is um you know that's only 5 years away we'll have to start planning for that in three to four years probably um right now the estimated cost for a million gallon water tank is $68 million in five years you know take your best guess at what that's going to be you know I I've Aaron mentioned 5% a year probably in construction cost inflation which is a you know throw a dart at a dart board it could go you know in the last seven years it's almost doubled so um um is there like a chance of the clear water like failing and like what is it made out of and how sound is it to P the water so concrete CLE well so it's below grade concrete varried um and then you have pumps within the plant that pump water out so it's water towers it's gravity right it's up in the air and that keeps the pressure system pressurized this would be a little bit different you have pump it into the system so the only real failure point for that would be if the plant for whatever reason shuts down or the pumps fail and you can't get the water out but we design you know secondary processes to uh prevent that or at least minimize the risk that all have enough capacity so that like we could paint that underwat Tower at some point we would so we would um yes we would absolutely in the near term if if say day one the pl's operational we'd be able to take Kings Point to offline and rehab that while keeping her the tower online and running the plan um so that wouldn't be a problem um and then in the future um if you want to take your larger tank off line that would probably be closer to that 2040 time frame where we probably be looking at that second tower at that point so I would be delay the second tower as possible build that uh closer to 2040 and then rehab your current currently new tower at that point as well once the second tower will be up but have they ever um so the Kings Point water tower is only 400,000 gallons so um has there do they ever remove the tank and add a new T you I asked him too he knows I mean you know so you know replace just the top with you know can we make bigger at the same s like obviously the support and everything have to come down what can you take it down and put a bigger one that would be better there and if so well I'm thinking not even taking the whole thing down is it possible to just replace the tank and make it big I mean I haven't looked structurally at the tower I'm not a structural engineer but it's probably unlikely that you could leave the pedestal and take the tank off and make it bigger just you need a larger base it's designed for the weight of pretty unlikely to have um you could absolutely demo the full tower new tower back but then why the challenge with that Tower and the location that it is is it actually hydraulically it's hard it's hard for your system operating with that tank right there so if you were to build a new tank now I would tell you to build somewhere else to get hydraulic benefits think the clearw as the to basically is what it is I mean I mean prolonging the need for elevated storage for another one down the roller because we will have that storage in place I that's the biggest thing for us is to have that capability to um like said take both offline you know one at a time down the road to do service work whatever so um that's the biggest thing for us on is let's you know so that we can take K point off make it look decent and you know get it back online anything happens on the road we can always have back up in Rundy the most important part is we have pumps that are large enough inside the plant for the for the clear well that you P the water out fast enough our plant can't produce enough water uh to keep up with the pumps that are pushing it out but you can sustain that for a short period of time until your so that's clear that's same same with power yeah essenti we're meeting power a right um so with this water treatment plan what are we looking at in terms of um how many more units how many more accounts if few homes can we put on this existing system then um there's a fancy graph I know in our water um yeah so I mean this plant will get us we want we're not saying we're going to build another PL want to know years because years doesn't really tell us any it's how many units or how do can can we add because that's going to be the deciding factor as to when we have to do more and is it can we add another th000 homes can we add another 500 homes I mean how many how many homes can we add that's that would be the question because if I remember right from the from the comprehensive water plan I don't think we have another treatment plan in the South zone until 20 50ish yeah that that pushes us out like 25 years right my math is Right assuming 100 homes a year you know so that's 200 home units homes not counting commercial or industrial so it gets us pretty far along you can get exact numbers this is just memory so I'm just wondering are we overbuilding too much you know I mean you know because and we're and then and then we're overbuilding by that much is it then we have to depend on the homes coming you know if they build up well they come that's kind of the question so that's kind of the conundrum I think that we're in if we overbuild it for 25 years out that sounds good but then what if the homes don't come now all of a sudden then after 25 years now we have to either rehab or rebuild the existing infrastructure that we have I mean all it's all based on projections right so um if we think our projections are overly aggressive then potentially we could be overbuilding if if um they AR agress so enough we could be under building and then be in the same situation in 10 years right we'll have another uh facility the you can look at a phased approach where you build a water plant with the ability to add additional filters when you experience that demand but there's costs to that right I mean to have to go back into a site and add to an existing plant um is not the most efficient way to do it um so and you'll pay more per square put building space at that point I think the only way to really answer that is to look at the projections and say do we think we're going to add this many homes in this time period or are we going to restrict the number of homes so that we don't so we can you know save some money to to grow so I I don't have a specific answer because I don't have the numbers in front of me but we'd have to look at the 100 seems a little aggressive if you look at like a 20-year period or something we haven't had really a recession for a while but yeah system is almost triple what we currently have yeah your current your current right and so now 500 so you lose so can't go by Max yeah so we're putting out 1100 actually on King's Point right now aren't we right right and then um and we're going to keep those two those those two Wells we're keeping five and six or six six and seven so then the other two Wells that we're digging they're going to be added to the system so you're always going to have at least two Wells if not three it probably you're never going to have two Wells go down at the same time yeah usually we we'll design so you one well ma kind standard right now we boths six and S com to meet your Peak and and system if you lose any of those Wells you would for an extended period of time keep what I'm saying too is if we have 1100 gallons right now currently and it's servicing maybe not quite enough service 20 well actually not we can't do that because we have the north system too so how many units are we servicing in the South system about 1,800 1700 would say probably 2/3 are in the South so yes there around 17 1800 and now we're going to add 2100 gallons permanent more so I'm just saying it that seems to be like that should last us for 50 years I mean it seems like an awful lot you know what I'm saying one thing remember M assignment will just be a secondary so we're actually the new plant will have a secondary wall but we will reite primary on the CH and we can only have you limit is on the M assignment for year yeah there's there'll be a number that we can on the M Simon Simon they're always so should be able to keep up yeah this one kind of shows treatment approve things system on the left there this one just not running at Max day future water get that but I I agre you don't want it running at Max Capacity every but at the other hand I don't want to over build so much that you don't want a lot of unused capacity yeah and that's what happened with the Kings Point water tower actually they built it like I don't know how many years ago and it was never used in fact I don't know if this was before you were there Gary or not but they actually had to put airers in there because it was it wasn't the capacity I mean it was it was overbuilt well it was so overbuilt and now all the sudden we now have to spend all this money to refurbish it had we built it later you know what I'm saying we wouldn't be refurbishing it now so well mean that point we could have if you would have built a bigger treatment plant next to we wouldn't be having this discussion now either I think the goal of this is to not have this discussion again in five years the new Tower or in seven years and need another plant because we didn't build this one enough like I want to know as a resident on the water on the water system that what is being built now is going to get us through the next 20 years because I don't want to be still paying for this until need another one so your current your ma3 was 2.3 which is 1600 so that's more than what your current can produce by $600 and and your Again The Firm capacity point only 500 if you lose a well you can't so thought was adding 8 and N you'll get 600 Gall per minute from the U the or so you get 1500 Gall minut from the Jordan and 600 gallons per a minute from the m s to get 2100 Gall from the water treatment plant so if I take the th000 that you currently have plus 21 so I get 3100 gallons a minute treatment capacity if we would continue forward and you're currently using 1600 so double mindset also should be like whatever we build should be able to take the Kings Point plant offline and still maintain the water we use won't say need the water we use and are pumping so they can rehab BS do whatever stuff they need to do on the current plant you want I want that redundancy so and that's yeah that you'll have significant redundancy for a while until you yeah until you grow into it and that's another thing to think about is as you grow you will eat into the excess capacity that we do have and again some of that is just redundancy so if if I'm really looking at when I add these together it's 3200 gallons a minut that take your largest well offline which is the way we would have to look at this that'd be A500 Gall so is that the um seven or six it doesn't really matter because we can we can R right so if we lose a 1500 Gall minute well I do think that would come out that's 1,700 gallons of firm capacity is what we have to put into the system if you had a weld down in the middle of summer which is about what you're puming right now so it's like 100 100 gallons per minute more than what we're pumping right now it's hard to it's hard to look at it from a doubling standpoint because um wells in in this type of aquifer are very commonly between 1,00 1500 G per minute so you're just going to get that capacity if you drill well you would want to drill well and build one smaller because you just there's not much extra cost to make it a little bit bigger and get the production capacity out of it um so so you're saying um so the mount no the Jordan is pumping 1500 gallons yeah and then the mount Simon we can only pump 600 gallons correct yeah so I I don't feel like we're building that much it's just that you know you already are starting starting with a smaller quantity of water so well just yeah well how many homes are left to build the one the C two 250ish okay so presumably those will build out we add 250 more and then is there any interest on any of the other land the the trailer park is the only one that's had any recent discussions so one piece I'll I'll add and this is kind of tied to some of the stuff that was discussed when I was hired was the commercial District too I think we might see some movement in the next 10 years there I you know I don't have a crystal ball but commercial usage might have an impact we don't have any real heavy commercial users um if there's a desire to to have you know during a 2050 comp plan adoption to look at an additional room for industrial you know we would have that capacity it all depends on what city council wants to to do and what the community wants to do with their zoning and comprehensive plan but having you know I think the way the way Aaron describes it is yeah I mean we have we we're basically building for residential right now and if if commercial kicks in and there's a heavy High user you know that's a factor that we don't have in in our plan right now that you know might cause us to adjust their plan in the future so depending on what happens on Highway 7 there's a lot of commercially zoned areas there um that could have an impact too and that having a plant you know 2200 gallon per minute plant positions us better for that potential commercial development Industrial Development because we're going to need that to do those things you wouldn't so much for commercial you would for industrial certain industrial um businesses would need high would be high high water users but a lot of commercial probably not so much it depends if you're thinking of like strip mall commercial correct but if you're thinking of like a fitness center or some other large scale commercial yeah you know then you're then you might scale it up a little bit but you're right I mean industrial is a lot more than potentially than commercial but there are commercial uses that do use water okay so the question then is right do we want to continue on this this trajectory that we've been on or do we want to Pivot and do the other option yeah so couple things to note right we we've been planning to do option one for a while I think option two an option three are a product of the the price is going up significantly um I think it's important to bid this out we always have that option if the bids come in you know let's say to come in at 30 million or something right like we don't think that's going to happen but we have the right to reject those bids and then go back and look at you know what can we do to save some money or you know something right because that that's that's more than what we have here um one thing that Brian brought up earlier to me today was you know is it possible to engineer option one and option two build them as an ad alternate or option three sorry so those kind of two ends of the spectrum um talked to eron a little bit before the meeting and you know it's probably something that we could do maybe behind the scenes a little bit more uh and you know because they're an Engineering Group not a not a contractor you know it might be that option of looking and and maybe um uh getting a contractor paying a contractor to actually look at the bid quantities for both and get us a number and say oh this is what we think it might be um you know option three is 15 million option one is 20 million you know something like that where we get you know because the Engineering Group they're not the ones doing the bidding you know the contract or the general contractors are doing that so that's something that we can look at maybe not bid it but get a little bit more information um what that would entail is directing this group to say well what's that going to cost um and then you know proceed with both um you know I don't know if that's I don't know if that's a $10,000 exercise or a I don't know what it is if it's a I don't know so that's something that they would have to develop a task order for if we wanted to go down that path um you because right now we're looking at our bidding timeline is May is potentially which aligns well I know Brian asked some questions about the bonding request the legislative session closes April or May 19th I believe if you know let's say because the house isn't really meeting right now they they'll do a they'll do a special session we have time 60 days but we also would know before me whether not there is even going to be a bonding Bill potentially unless there's a special session called and then they do the bonding bill in the special session I guess my point is if we bid it miday we have 60 days from them to evaluate the bids and award the bids so if we don't get bonding money and that's what it hinges on then we can say well this is what this hinges on um and we can award accordingly based on once we get that input if it's you know you know we'll we'll know a lot more in the next three months as far as the bonding request goes um but if you if you want to evaluate option one versus option two a little bit closer or a little bit um more detailed I would say then we would go to a2s and say let's have somebody look at this that's in the industry give us like an actual like kind of pseudo um bid as far as how they would bid it and then we can look at the two and have probably a little bit better numbers you know as far as what we get for for one or the other with I think everybody understands you know the trade-off between one and three is that clear well and then you know if we would go with option three you know we would be setting the table that if if needed we'd be talking about a water tower in you know 3 to four five you know some some time frame that's more near than if we do option one what we P for the water tower new one that was two and a half yeah 2.4 2.5 yeah I I can safely say I do not want to be discussing another water tower within the same term if we have to talk about it again within these four years we're just doing the clear well like I I don't want to do that again I want to sounds bad but I want to build it right I want to build it once then I don't want to think about water other than maintenance for 10 to 15 years you know I I mentioned the 30-year bond is there an option that obviously pay more interest but is there option to do that and build more storage into this treatment facility so we don't have to build a tower in five years um so caveat storage is you do have to get the water out so with the pipe infrastructure you have um figer you make storage and the bigger you grow and use that storage you have to push the water out faster right because you're trying to accommodate so you need to start putting larger pipes in and everything else so it's becomes kind of diminishing returns at that point um so I think we we've we've put 750,000 gallons on the site I'm even going to recomend to bring that down a little bit because 600 is about optimal um at least early estimates are that's about optimal to get um get what we need out of the storage you're going to invest in um but if you if you go bigger than that the problem is you got to push it out into the system and then that so you must build the to but with the clear wallet that should get us presumably to about 2040 without needing more storage with all the assumptions that we have in our that's only for the southern system we have the northern system so basically what we're saying is we're only going to have development in the southern system basically if you don't want to add more to your Northern well there's capacity on the Northern system now isn't there it's pumping up 750 we're pushing probably about easily 6 to 625 but that's never been an issue up there at all right we have no we have no problem there's plenty of room for what we have there that plant has Roe to expand there so yeah I think only we looked at there was maybe issu strugles those aren't you know brand new water plants but still the majority of the development will have to be in the southern system because the northern capacity is there might be a little bit there but it's not going to have you know 4 or 500 new home capacity it's you know maybe a couple hundred maybe well that's not in the growth plan though is it like there's not David the 2040 plan shifted all that to the Sal Zone shifted that's that's fine well but no but what you need to understand but here's what you need to understand is there are people in the northern system with properties that would love to develop and now you're saying well because of we're giving it all to the S we're not going to let you develop I mean you those are things to consider I mean it's it's like I mean I understand why we would have to do that but you know you got to then be prepared to tell those people in the northern area that yep you can't develop until 2040 or 20150 well didn't we do those people in the system I mean the Gen Olsen property we told them four years they're on the central system or in the southern system right we told them four years ago they can't develop until we get a new treatment plan and more storage so I mean we've told residents this before this isn't but I'm saying we're not talking about four years we're talking about 20 or 30 years and yeah I mean that's the difference I think either way what whatever we do in the South Zone we have to think about the north Zone separately so if there is some potential development in the future we'd have to right we know that we're going to need water treatment at some point in the north Zone uh one thing I will note and I think everybody's aware of this that the school has went on for their irrigation needs a well that we gave them so that's probably impacted the peak summer demand because they're no longer using our system to irrigate and they're they're like a largest user of water um so that's helpful maybe bought us a little bit of time um on the North Zone but if we do have a 500 Home Development come into the north Zone we will have to address water treatment the good thing about the north Zone as Gary alluded is that there's some Bas to expand that plant on site as opposed to building a new plant well didn't they design the um building itself what that isn't the building itself in the north treatment plan designed so you can add another corre yes yes that's what was originally deigned so I think I think if if we do see some growth in the north Zone we it's a little bit easier conversation than the self Zone that's and that's a big if I don't think there's much movement discussion at this point no on the nor okay designed to expand the current Kings Point plant is you can't expand there expand around one three okay no well it's surrounded by um conservation um not Three Rivers but yeah like P No it's it's um yeah you're right it's in a conservation he um um it's like 40 acres up was put in conservation he's like back in the 80s or 90s or whatever anyhow all right what is your so we would want to know or do you have any estimates what it would cost to give us these numbers that that J was talking about going having a contractor yeah having a contractor give us some estimates so we know it's going to be I think that's what we were asking last time is it going to be a$ 5,5 million savings or is it going to be a $2 million savings option number whatever two or so I did make a call to Rex construction who has a lot of water construction industry and I was I specifically asked them on a current estimate if they felt like it was correct and um and way the president looked in there some of the recent Bill bid numbers they just bid uh city of Blue Earth did a gravity concrete gravity filter plant with 750,000 G fwell um I think it was 1,300 gallons a minute and it came in at 19 that was the average of the three bids um so then that only had two filters so if I just add those two additional filters that we're planning 23 24 million seene is pretty close uh so I feel like our our current estimate for the project we're talking about is correct or at least you know in the ballpark of what a contractor would give us um we didn't get into details on options two and three um I would really need to sit down with the contractor and kind of walk through the modifications that design for them to really understand um the potential cost in fact we can definitely do that if we want to you know probably if I'm going to ask a contractor to get into that level of estimating we probably want to pay them a little bit um or have them you know on the team and some some form um because we want to make sure that they put enough energy into it to be CL so another thing with the filters couldn't you do the same design that your currently doing rather than concrete filters couldn't you do steel filters and wouldn't that be less expensive yep so that's option two so option two is your team Point PL is a steel gravity design and that was the to5 million saving um you know I did look into do can I get more accurate than this it's hard at this space just because we're still only at you know 30 to 60% design okay so why wouldn't we go that up then because I mean I you know it doesn't sound like a lot when you're talking 26 million total but you know if we can save 5 million and like a lot yeah so which one would it change it would only change it would only change the filters So currently option one has con is it correct me if I'm wrong correct change filter and we get oh the clear well and keep the 2030 timeline so what about if you did option two with the steel filters or option one with steel filters and still kept the steel yeah I think is asking can we do option two with a clear well 2 and half million is is if we remove the clear well in that scenario I'm estimating $25 million in savings so instead of 3 to 5 million it becomes uh you to 2 and half million okay if doing the Steel versus concrete filters I'm sorry but if we can save some money it's still going to give us the clear wealth why not I I don't know if you can go into details why why we selected concrete versus steel the link I think I think our original thought was that the the concrete filters cost effective um in longevity but yeah the try to think through yes will the steel filters need repair not repair but extensive work in the 20 years of the bond versus the concrete yeah you'll you'll to Reco refurbish a steel filter every 20 to years probably so there's going to be some costs there the I'm trying to think through the steel filter that my number with the clear well assumes that we're also removing High service pumping so I have to go back and look at that because if you're just going to switch from concrete to Steel you would still have all the high service pumps um for the clear W so I need to go back that to make sure that it isn't if we don't also remove the clear well that there's a savings and we can do that we can run the quantities for concrete gravity right filters versus steel if we're going to keep CLE to make sure our numbers are right but it's more has high service so so I'm I'm I'm hearing but correct me if I'm wrong that we want to keep the clear well it does happen does the clear well require that the service pump High service pumps be put in right now or is at our house we could defer till we feed that Capac Yeah question yeah I mean you have to have the pumps the water out so we could we could look at less pumps but then you're just losing redundancy which given importance of this probably would want to do that the pumps really aren't the expensive part a pump is probably 200 2 and plus the Electric I think think you have to build it I we can definitely look at concrete steel with the clear well and see if there's any savings there um and you know and also look at some of the longterm own if there is you know with recoding costs things like that but if we're looking at 25 years from now then it's like I'd rather do that versus yeah I mean if we have to do anything to steal the steel filters for 25 years that's fine I mean if we have to do something to it at five and it cost you know thousands and thousands of dollars yeah has eight water plants we've refurbished and they steel gravity filters hand at that so and G correct me if I'm wrong the the Kink point is steel yeah I think both of them they're so I think what you're saying is with going from concrete to Steel keeping the the clear well you're maybe going to see half a million to you know in savings right which is savings savings savings Gary what's your take on sorry big factor for us just to have that the system and be able to make that hor just repeat well I'm tired of looking at a rusty Tower you are I see it every day fast you drive you don't notice put a sh over something I still have to say I find hard believe that Tower looks so bad and it's not really that there's one it's like 93 or something was it 96 okayu Miller Park on 110 and 44 that's older and I swear it's in perfect condition they maybe have to should be redone every it it maybe was I don't know it could have been repainted my husband says Jo up there with the spr well that'll look good for probably like a month then why is condensation condensation there's only certain SI you can do that you have to train it way I mean the whole process plus the internal components of it that there's a really ugly one in that's like this obnoxious blue color what is the cost so we haven't even it cost to refurbish it it's it's not just paining and though it needs some refurbishing yeah also internal work that to get no point doing any of that until we have treat cuz you have to to pull it offline years I think a few years back we had said it was about 500,000 and I think one of the big we really do need that tow not to Val and because right now when the plant is running keep my those first before the other Tower so it would be nice to it hooked to the SK system to keep so both Towers can right now we build one up level off it where we can shut one off with the system fill the Southwest Tower you know and keep the system in check I mean that's it's very hard at this point to do that and a us where that we need this in there and stuff so that's one of the big factors the other thing is too is the um the M was never installed so when the T does get we have no way of draining it because it never installed so there's a lot of packs that need to go I mean there's my system is bad I mean you name it I there's a lot of that needs to get fixed and just for all the issues we have with the King's Point plant now it's to the new plant all that will not have any issues right with filters not run capacity and you know problems and Val not being put okay um questions and then let's give no I could say yeah whatever we end up doing though we we just have to make sure that Woodland Coop's 250 homes don't go in in development stops are all going to be in trouble we we need to add somehow have a plan that if we're going to go make this big a infrastructure investment somehow we got to make sure people keep coming work I mean that's that's the only I I was you know your point earlier about overbuilding and stuff if all of a sudden that's my biggest fear I don't know if anyone else has that maybe everyone else is like we're going to keep Building 100 new homes but if we were like in Woodland cove's life cycle at the beginning when I knew a thousand homes were coming I'd feel better but if if nothing comes and then after these last couple hundred homes go in we're all going to be in trouble because we're gonna have 25 million in Investments and no one to pay for it so it's going to be people screaming at the top of their lungs so I I like the $18 million do oper somehow to get it down but everyone wants the 25 million somehow we better make sure people come you like feel the dreams if we build it people better come so I mean we're going to be in a lot of trouble would make this a less oh desirable City to be if obious our water rates and if yeah I mean it's yes you want the water infrastructure but you don't want to be the that you don't want to be the champion of the highest rates or where it's I mean we don't have minona Beach where you know the the SE charge we talked about the $300 a quarter 100 a month that's $2 million homes a lot of the people on our water system are Hunter's Crest in $400,000 home or whatever it's a lot more honorous on them to add 1,200 bucks a year than it is for someone in in a $2 million house in minaka beach so we just got to look at the financial piece and make sure everything's meshing versus really accessible numbers that you can look at as far as what growth is expected just in our country not just Minista and um but you do have to look at just Minista okay well okay Minista but go look at the I mean apartment building that we just built is beautiful and it's 30% full how long does that is it does it take to that's our first one very expensive yeah so I think you have a good point I don't know that we're going to be growing that fast it could drop I mean my first few years here where we was like 070809 we added 30 homes a year if we're only adding 30 homes a year we're going to be in trouble I mean basically so financially at least we might be great and have water coming out our years for the next 25 50 years but we're goingon to be in trouble financially I'll tell you that so it's it's a kind of a chicken in an egg conversation because if we don't build water treatment then we can't build houses either right so it's it's this canundrum I mean what if well what if we continue down this path path change from Gravity to Ste uh concrete to Steel but then can we have it bid out without the clear well then we would know how much that's going to cost us knowing that we could add it in the future even if it's five or six or seven years from now then we would know if there's more homes coming could we add the clear well later or does have to go now goes underneath I believe I don't know I would think we would if if if we if we wouldn't do the clear well we would build a new tower up here yeah we build a new tower somewhere else so the balance would be better in the system so could it be designed in or bid like that what what would a eliminating the clear well what does that save us today um you could if you wanted to do clear well good altern so based as we're talking another clear while we have to describe what that is you would have to your filters your steel filters would have to have basically a small clear well buil into them so you can pump out of those similar you have at King point so there' be some process piping we would there be some excess design because we have the design and a different set of pumps to get the water out fil steel filters verus the concrete um but you could do a bit alternate with that um it would be complicated but we could consider it um the other thought I had was if you go with steel filters you could because they are more of a a unit I guess you could right now the the design had four filters kind of in a box you could do one set space for the next set um again you're going to pay more in the future for that there's more people too potentially yeah but there be Logistics of having to open up the building again to get that skid in but that would probably be a more reasonable approach of don't get rid of the clear all reduce your like put in once of filters and then a future space for a future set that would be easily Incorporated um that would be more common uh that's kind of what we have in the north plant we don't have a clear well there but right but we we would design the system to have all pieces of parts and whenever you experience that demand what kind of savings or what what like that idea doesn't I'm concerned we're over over build and then there's recession or water rates reduce our growth so being able to build the capital building that you need expand all right I I I I agree with Bri so we can add option A that's fine we can look at that I understand what the unit rights are for the filters maybe a little more specific on what we and wouldn't have the clear well cost for that so in summary just so I'm on the same page as everybody we're going to look at we're we're just uh steel filters instead of concrete we're going to look at two filters versus four with the expansion yeah yeah be able to expand to four if we want but just two right now and then um looking at Clear well versus no clear well what Gary emailing me close my email sorry well let me ask one other quick question so right now you have a 600,000 G clear designed okay is it should it be downsized to four or five I mean sorry our team ran the analysis we looked at 57 okay 500 in a in a Max day scenario your clearw would get down about 30% full going off memory no co uh which we don't like going below 50% so 500 is too small 750 but it would only go down to about 60% I think it was too so that's a little too big so I just did rough math 600 seams more kind of get us to the 50% don't overbuild but get us to the 50% line and we call it and I think 600's above that I haven't run the actual numbers yet but that's kind where okay well let's let's do those numbers so just to confirm with the group we're going to look at are we going to look at removing the clear well or are we going to keep the clear well I think we keep the clear well in all the scenarios to 600,000 so we're really just the two different scenarios are steel with two versus four because without the clear will we can't refurbish the Kings Point Tower and we have to refurbish it otherwise we're looking at multiple Millions to replace it that's kind of how I'm looking at it so we're really just looking at the different filter configuration filters steel and also number of filters I think I think the big benefit of the clear we it delays future storage it's not so much the is if if you build if you buil a PL without the clear well you'd have enough capacity in this new plant in the short term to be able to rehab clear well I think the clear well is really beneficial to Future storage um well then give us a number without the clear give us both you know tell us okay without the clearw here it is with the clear well here it is and then how far out would be realistically speaking with with the clear well on you know so we I think we need focusing on option two a with and without a all right all right and then we'll have a rate discussion at a different work session sorry it's just so much money and and not you know that's I think the reason why we really need to go through this you might give my two cents on rate I would recommend you're if you're going to talk about rate adjust and bonding there's when our team's looked at it there's not there's not enough separation between the rates to encourage behaviors typically you want to see a 30 to 50% increase between like your tier one tier two to tier three to incentivize people to decrease watering so if you're looking at you know adding a base charge adding the depb service charge I think those are all really good ideas but also looking at the spread between your rates might help and incentivize the people that are using a lot of water to decrease water so we have people that do a lot of rate work and they really felt like there just wasn't enough separation so something to consider well maybe your people need to talk to again it we still got a lot of calls a few years ago we increased the rates second TI $6 more so like how much more I think I think it's the middle tier it it was your main tier middle 25 Z 25,000 still a pry good chunk of water I think we're saying usually about a monthly average homes will use 6,000 G is is a national Regional average so um having 0 to 25,000 first quarter is is a generous chunk to really be charging people on that bottom here so looking at how you making adjustments there okay great thank you all right can you be on a discussion all right um so next um so that that's everything that we have so now we're going to if I get a motion to adjourn we can be adjourned for our work session is there a mo to adjourn thank you m is there a second second thank you Mr govern all those in favor sign iOS motion passes so at 6:4 4 We're supposed to do our Eda um meeting um we can do that meeting yeah we can yeah if we want to started at 655 can do you want to take a 10minute break and one