##VIDEO ID:TKB919QAqaQ## all right we're good to go all right um good evening everyone and welcome to the January 16th 2025 historic preservation meeting this is a regular scheduled meeting of the Monclair historic preservation commission notice has been given in accordance with the open meeting Public public meetings act by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of the municipal building and by sending a copy to the Montclair times The Star Ledger and the Harold news we are also being broadcast live on Montclair TV channel 34 and remotely streamed on the uh Monclair YouTube channel so um the first thing before we have our roll call just to read what's on uh according to the agenda we have two postponements which will both be heard next month one is a hearing um which is application 2024-25 Pleasant Avenue block 2903 Lot 24 demolition of a principal structure and also po postponed till uh next month is a uh application 2024 d34 which is um 144 Union Street it is blocked 1203 lot 6 this is a total demolition of a detached garage which um the applicant is coming back to us haven't been heard last week last month rather so may we have the roll call please I will just uh clarify for the record as well that both of those hearings are postponed to February 20th 2025 um and for the 144 Union Street application there's no more need for uh further public notice and for 16 Pleasant Avenue uh there's no more need for the public notice to the newspaper but public notice uh mailing will be given for the updated date um and then the roll call uh oh can I can I just so when you say mailing do you mean because it's a demolition to uh to people within the yeah the certified property owners within 200 ft of the subject property will still get a a notification notification by mail yes okay thank you okay um chair Bennett pres Vice chair Grant here Mr Ryman here Mr Rooney here Mr Sweeney here Mr Juliano could not be present uh Mr Pier present Mr mixer uh is not present Miss Floyd here and Mr smolen here okay and I must I misspoke last month because I um Kevin Pierre is part of our HPC he has not resigned okay so welcome back thank you that was quick sorry a little misunderstanding all right um oh election of officers so on the floor do we have a um nomination for chair uh I would like to uh nominate chair Bennett uh to continue serving as chair I think we've been well served by her wisdom guidance hard work um your dedication to this commission has been exemplary and I would like to motion that we re that we nominate chair Bennett second second second any any um any opposition or any other names no okay so glad you tried to say that we don't unduly Len the meeting right all the thank you very much for your confidence and uh one more year what you say all in favor oh yes all in favor I any opposed okay so that's been passed so we have uh next is the election of our Vice chair anyone like to put forward a name for vice chair Michael yeah yeah second second second all in favor I any oppose opposition no okay Mike you've been uh thank elected vice chair good luck in your new position thank you so much um next we have secretary and um uh we have a name for uh anyone put forward uh for our secretary I shall zanab she's been exemplary and very patient so I would like to nominate zanab for our upcoming year I second okay all in favor I opposition no and assistant secretary although she's not here tonight we have traditionally nominated Janice tally the planner to for assistant secretary so I would put that name forward second second all in favor I okay okay thank you very much and okay and Mr smullin was duly uh notified last month that he's has another year so thank you um so next on is our approval of the minutes from uh our last meeting um of December 19th 2024 do we have any addendum or changes or com ments no the only one I would like to make is very minimal and it's a really is on page six line 226 which should be lentils not lentils so just a slight spilling ER and next on the agenda is um oh so uh we have a motion to approve the minutes as amended of of December 19th Mr Sweeney second second second Mr Rooney all in favor any opposition I have to abstain chair oh okay that's right um resolutions we have no resolutions committee reports um moving ahead our we the minor application we had one minor applications meeting uh today this afternoon application 2025 D1 uh for 260 Belleview Avenue signage some days Bakery um that is still pending we're going to we've asked them to come back with some tweaks that's on the old uh Belia theater yes yeah yeah um application 20 25-2 Mash burgers at 360 Bloomfield Avenue that's signage that has been approved we haven't had any other meetings since then so we'll we'll uh uh I'm sure be hearing back from the first application soon um yeah okay um the design Review Committee met at 608 Valley Road we had a uh very good meeting and um we are going to be looking at some an updated application later on uh so thank you very much much for working with us uh grants the grants committee met um we are going to apply for our next CLG Grant Zena and Mr Rooney and I met and what we're going to uh what we hope to get get all together is a grant for the south end and the South End um we're looking to write a have written a historic structure survey for both the proposed Southend proposed historic district and also for what we're calling a new District proposed historic district which will be known as the South End Business District which will go along um orange road now in the already surveyed uh uh dis already it's not surveyed already proposed Southend district there are 175 structures thank you Zana for figuring that out and um we we think that in the Southend business district there will be about 25 structures so we're proposing to um to uh apply for two uh separate uh proposed dis proposed areas that will be surveyed and with this survey as I explained upstairs uh we we have a uh we hire a consultant who who looks at every structure uh determines what the data structure if they know the architect they they determine the history and of the location and if there's any um you know what happened there was it a farm where there's were there people uh names that are his you know known in Monclair so uh I think this is a great opportunity to get to know more uh researched um about the structures the people the history families that are in the South End so um we are that's what we're proposing is anybody have any on the commission have any other ideas or what do you think about that idea I was actually surprised to see that it wasn't designated to be a historic so that was a little ey seeing that map but yeah it would be nice to actually add that to the the map of mon so we've been we've been very fortunate in um our CLG grants U and receiving them and I think it's been a great asset in learning the history of all different I'm going to call them neighborhoods areas I mean there this this town is so diverse in what uh we have that um it's really just an incredible and uh so I think that would be uh as we talked about it would be a good good research project to really dig in and see um you know how it developed how the how the area developed I mean if there's any geological I know the Nishu stream goes runs through uh the Southend uh uh proposed District so when we met we did look at what's the proposed District that which is in the HPC element and then we also discussed about continuing they it won't be contiguous there's a a a break in the um in the proposed District of which is residential it's not that it's not needed or worthy it's just that looking at the map um you can see that that if if that area was to be considered a proposed District it would mean Nishu Park and Nishu school as well because it kind of it's like where car's Woods is and it kind of swings around so to put that all into one one um prop one structure survey would be just too vast and we've learned from the upper Monclair um commuter District originally proposed that was 600 structures and we had divided up so the upper Monclair one has 300 and some structures and what's being worked on now which uh Zanna will give us an update later on also has an additional 300 so I know we feel confident that we could and and also in precedent when we applied for um uh a a the same historic structure I think it was about it was in 2021 we also included Oak Croft which is just south of Anderson Park and Willer Street which is um on the south end as well so you know we do have some yeah Pockets but again they're neighborhoods or or or areas so if so then if everyone thinks that that's a a uh good project to uh we'll go forward with that and we're going to have to ask sna again is going to have to be our our ears and eyes with the uh application so okay thank you very much all right um tonight we had a training session special training session with Mr smle who we invited the planning board and the zoning board and which was great um there was I think good discussion at the end thank you very much um this will um this our our uh uh hold on so and and uh on February 8th the uh which is a Saturday there will be a virtual training session which is going to be offered by the state shipo office it'll be virtual be 10: to 12 so from the comfort of your home you can could sit there but the three new Commissioners um I'm sure that our our uh you know needed your training session would be covered by tonight but they will certainly cover different things and it's I mean this really is a very vast um subject and a lot of things to grab on to so it might be to your benefit for everybody if you can um I'll coordinate with Zan again and I'll send out the zoom link to everybody okay all right that's it for committee reports unless anyone else has anything to report no all right public comment is there anyone in the audience that would like to comment no okay seeing no public comment is closed we have no old business now we're going to go to new business and new business is application 2024-25 Monclair LLC um it's a conceptual review for second floor projecting signage um let me just so well you're setting up I'll just I'll just uh introduce the application um this is a um this has been filed to the HPC for conceptual review for the addition to install 19 Metal Blade signs on the second floor of the subject property the blade blade signs are proposed to improve the visibility of future tenants in the currently Unleased commercial spaces on the second floor um as I said this uh property is located at 14 South um Park Street it is located in the um in the central business district and is considered a key building in the central business district um it has been um renovated um for the first floor tenants I could see but I guess there's no second floor tenants yet is that is that well there wait before you begin do we need if this is a conceptual review do they need to be sworn in okay okay so I'll SAR you with do you swear to tell you have to raise your hand your right hand do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes in relation to the application yes okay so if you could just identify yourself and your connection with the application my name's Fred crant um I am the manager of the property and I'm here on behalf of the owner as far as this conceptual review with you tonight okay thank you um I'm Adam Kent and I'm the manager as well and representing the owner okay all right thank you so can you just walk us through what you're proposing sure um So currently well actually Sharon Miller uh Dan studio is is was on the second floor and she is relocating as maybe the board knows um the space on the second floor is about 9,000 fet and we've known for quite some time that Sharon Miller was relocating and um there's been a we've had a great deal of difficulty in trying to secure a tenant for the second floor obviously it doesn't have the visibility that one would typically look for and the pool of tenants that would be interested in the second floor is small um the broker has is basically been asking us to try to find out from the town what kind of visibility that they're going to help us with I mean we look at a little bit of a hardship because it is sort of like a re it's in a retail Zone and I can't say it won't be office but it's more likely to be something in the retail family whatever that may be and obviously signage and visibility is important and especially important on the second floor because your eye doesn't automatically go up there where at least if you're walking by a storefront um uh you have a better chance that people are going to pay attention to what is actually in that space um we have existing blade signs on the first floor um and I would I think they are particularly professionally done they're metal they're not like flapping pieces of fabric which I've seen other um uh I don't know if people call them FL signs but blade signs these are really professionally quite frankly very costly uh because they were custom made for the building and we intend if we can get the approval to use the exact same design to to duplicate that on the second floor on the first floor we have them between every storefront and we're proposing or hoping to get approval to be able to put them between every window on the second floor um at this point um we don't know how many tenants there may be one there may be five we really don't know how ultimately it was going to be subdivided but we're looking for guidance about what we can I'll use the word represent to potential tenants that we can sort of deliver to them this type of signage so we had proposed if uh as the application or the write up I think that was done the memorandum um uh we had proposed to as I said put the blade signs between the gap in every window and I think that says I think there's like four four on Bloomfield Avenue and I think there was like 15 on Park Street so that's what we're hoping um uh to get approval to proceed so that we can hopefully attract a quality tenant to the second floor and they can have the visibility and exposure that they would need in order to be interested in renting the second floor thank you and is that a um a rendering of what the existing blade sign is uh well yeah a sign company did that if you could maybe flip to the next page and see keep going I thought there was another well so I can answer so that sign is what's currently on the first floor and we plan to use that to replicate exactly on the second floor okay I'm not sure if anybody had had a chance to stop over the building um to uh see um I only have one picture I guess no this is a uh example of the of which bar Rumble that's going to be opening very shortly um and um every sign is different in terms of whatever the um the way that each particular tenant you know wants to represent themselves and La of them have logos and things of that nature so every potential sign would have a be a different background color and different Graphics well I guess it all dep well I would say it all depends on how many tenants I would say each tenant would probably be similar but if they're multiple tenants it could be multiple based on their particular um way they identify themselves in the market but multiple background colors and multiple I would say that's possible I mean I I think the vast majority of the building currently is is I think in is it white what most of the signs no they're all different colors like pliable has a yeah pliable has a different color blue Mercury is blue and then the rumble is red um the Second Street is is gray so it depends the logo of each tenant Mei tenants have are known by their colors and so obviously if they're coming into a community and they have stores in other places they want to kind of replicate how people identify a particular tenant by their colors and do you have a master signage plan for this building a what a master signage plan that was approved when you did so when the my understanding is we've we have we were not involved in the property at the time that the existing package was approved but on the first floor that package was approved and so these blade signs were approved as part of that application I wasn't involved at the time but they're very unusual structures over the doors right and uh we've had tenants who have have expressed an interest in changing that and we always say no that can't be changed you have to work within this is this is the approval that the building was granted and so I'll use the word Force to uh live with the package that had previously be improved on the first floor I don't know I can't say with 100% certainty um what discussions at that time there were regarding the second floor Sharon Miller has been there for many many years um but it's like a dance studio so they don't have the same needs it's more of a des destion well known I I even think she relocated from another place in Montclair when she moved to the second floor so she already had a following so they're sort of like a different animal they're not they're not your typical retailer that needs exposure and have an opportunity for people to obviously most importantly to even know that you're there well my the reason I asked is if there was a master signage program signage program that was approved if there were any approved for the second floor and if so how many were there yeah I don't believe this I can't say with 100% certainty um I don't have privy to that application I'm not sure if there's somebody I can talk to in the town to find out about that um my understanding at least on the first floor that there that I know each tenant could put like whatever colors they want but they have to put it within this sort of square box the size the size yeah and we've reviewed those signs we've reviewed the sign this angle sign and and yeah and we just recently reviewed the guy on the corner this is um the ex is the existing sort of signage over the doors and so each tenant has to put their sign like right there and each of these tenants had were have permission to put a light sign up probably have pack to but this was sort of the signs that was approved as part of the first very yeah we're familiar good so each tenant has that has come and gone has lived with that structure and put their sign sort of in within that and approved that structure I'm not sure if there was a conversation about the second floor um but I don't have an answer to that I don't believe so but I can't say the well it should be on the resolution that was approved so um I maybe I I can check I looked at the plan um I don't remember seeing anything for the second board but I'll do check so we're hoping that the board will grant us a sort of leeway in terms of having these blade signs to quite frankly help us hopefully attract tenants to the second floor and to give them the visibility that they need to be successful I mean the last thing I don't think anybody wants is to have somebody lease it and because they're nobody really knows they're there they all fail and they keep turning over because they're failing because they don't have the exposure they really need to be successful no understand and do you have anything else to add before we open it up to other questions that's my initial okay all right thank you so we'll start from this end Mr P we'll start with questions from the Commissioners do you have any questions of the applicant yeah how many units are you looking at dividing the dance stud at this point I don't really have a good answer for you I mean obviously because everybody's going to want their own sign obviously yeah exactly right and um um I mean at this at this point we really don't know how many um how many tenants will be there we just wanted to have the flexibility I mean I will say we are looking I I did notice in the uh report or in the memorandum it said um on page 204 second floor of the building is currently vacant and the blade signs will be used by the uh future tenants with one sign for each individual tenant we're seeking to have more more than one sign if if it ended up being quote one tenant we're looking to try to have multiple blade signs for that tenant to draw attention up there having one sign up there would just get buried and lost right and uh whether again it all depends on the tenant and I know it's a sort of a catch22 the tenants want to know what they can do and you probably want to know what they want to do and I don't have an answer for them and I don't have an answer for you um but maybe it'll be a combination of of their sign maybe some graphics on blade signs again in keeping with their particular motif of that particular tenant to again draw attention up to the second floor so they can be successful the only reason I'm asking how many how many businesses you you want to subdivide is that's more science obviously so that's the only reason but you said 9,000 square fet right yes yeah so do you have an idea how many businesses might be able to fit into that I mean to be honest any landlord would hope to have one tenant yes uh as time goes by and you don't have one tenant and multiple tenants are expressing in a piece you begrudgingly start willing to subdivide um but um uh so at this point as I said we really um it's been over a year since we've been marketing it and we have not been successful in um attracting a tenant and that's why we decided to sort of go this route so that hopefully we can represent to perspective tenants this is what you'll be able to do so we think that you should reconsider Andor be interested in this location because obviously the location is good it's just unfortunately second floor um people don't really notice what's up there I guarantee the vast majority of people who aren't interested in dance and even though Sharon Miller has probably been there 20 years I bet they have no idea she's been there and that's typical uh because people you know kind of walking on the first floor they're not really looking up it's sort of human nature H before we could you uh advance that to the uh view of Park Street with all the yeah is that the one that right that indicates where all the signs are right that was created by our sign company to try to illustrate uh what we would like to get approval to do okay you can see the blade signs in between every window right yeah okay thank you so if you could just leave that up okay um Mr Sweeney any questions questions yes I have some questions now first the number of of Blade signs and the picture seems to show it almost like as panels but what what other design of a sign have you looked at is that the only design you looked at the blade signs you mean yes well I guess we were sort of duplicating what's already on the first floor so that's why we're sort of carrying the same Mo the same design to the second floor um so um that's why we are interested in sort of um keeping that theme with the building to do the same thing on the second floor that we have on the first and the how many blade signs do you have on the first floor um how many blade signs are on the first floor guess it depends on how many tenants we have let me see here there's two for um Rumble and blue Mercury oh I think blue mercury has two and Rumble has two cuz they're on the corner is that why so they have one on each side of the building and then every tenant in Queen has one four so did you consider uh having or would you consider having a blade sign that has multiple tenants on it so that so you don't have 14 or 15 lined up on the second floor that I would say In fairness it would be impossible to read that from the ground if you were to try to sort of subdivide a a uh a vertical panel yeah an upper or lower sign yes yeah I think that would be really impossible to read from the uh from the ground okay third is there any other place in Monclair or uh that has this kind of uh uh sign uh and with this frequency yes at the second floor yes the building with the Pokey 360 used to be where I guess I heard earlier it was uh being meshed on Bloomfield Avenue they have blade signs um on the second floor for for the tenants what's the address for that mfield Avenue that's what I'm talking about yeah sum it up you pick the uh the blade sign because it replicates the something on the first floor right uh which you have a couple of them so U yeah I think we have about maybe seven yeah my broken um there are multiple examples in town um this is not a blade sign is it the one that shows C well there's a sort of these are one yeah so it's sort of and I think those look like they're Fabric or are going to be way more professional I think I think and more durable problem with fabric is over time they en larger space between great I guess that's the way the building works out again they did the same thing they put the um blade signs in between the windows which is the same thing we're closing okay are they the same size the I'm sorry what's Jerry I'll wait for my question what is the width of the uh windows on the South Park Side I'm sorry they're all the same the width of the windows on the Bloomfield Avenue are they the same as the width on the uh on the South Park um I believe they are I I don't have a dimension for you uh about how how wide those windows are um but the windows on the Park Avenue side in the Bloon build appear to be the same okay um there are there are uh several other examples in town the T the takaria has um on Bloomfield Avenue they have um they have sign they have signs on the second floor here this T Mexican uh Street Kitchen there another there are uh multiple locations in town yeah um it's not a uh retail building but the um apartment yeah it's not the the department near Whole Foods has flag flag signs I say flag signs well flag we say flag because it's the same setup but it's fabric instead of metal and we're proposing metal it's more durable it's more lasting it doesn't really um over time diminish in terms of its appearance bait or anything like that okay well one thing it's sort of a repeat of it there any place in Mona that has the frequency and number of Blade signs that that you've depicted here the the one where I guess smashed is or mashed is going to be there's blade signs between each window I'm sorry where's Mash going to be Mash 360 Bloomfield out0 Bloomfield it's that corner building but it used to be right uh I mean just from this picture I'm not sure what goes down here but I count one two three four five Mercury or six seven again I don't have a full picture of the building CU I didn't know that was a question you were going to ask but there are multiple blade signs on this building again in between every window same same idea but we're hoping to get approval today there are some Wide Window some of those are like twice the width of I don't disagree with you on that I mean it just works out to the way the building was made but I don't disagree with you about that yeah are you finished yes are you done that's okay Miss Miss Floyd hi so um with it being 9,000 square fet in total right I mean for the whole floor upstairs cuz I've been up there so I know what the space looks like I mean probably ideal for a gym or Pilates or something along those lines but if you were to break it down and assume that maybe each business needs at least least at minimum a th we're looking at maybe the most nine different signs if you're going to break each potential build out to nine sign I don't disagree with you that the likelihood that we would break it down to small space in a thousand is probably unlikely but again we're hoping to get approval that that each attendant could have more than one sign because they need to have more visibility and so that whether let's assume for argument sake that um some of the signs would probably have the name and some of it may be sort of more Graphics that are in line with particular ass with the brand right that would just bring attention it is I don't know that the sign would be the name of the tenant would be on every sign but having multiple blade sign so they could use that to bring attention to the second floor and to their business and again depending upon the tenant they have you know sort of Graphics either within their social social media or whatever and that's probably likely to be the type of Graphics that would go up on those blade signs in addition to the signs that merely just say the name of the business okay so then um one I would think that if you have a multiple amount you know it's going to they're going to get lost their businesses like if you're having multiple signs with different names if you get to too many it's kind of defeats its purpose um have you considered an awning of any sort with that instead of doing the the blade signs if it's ending up 10 12 13 signs I feel like uh um we have not but um it may be something that we could look into as long as the awnings we could have graphics on the awnings with the name with the name so like you have the angle up and then maybe a flat part uh facing the street on the flat part we could have you know in the name I okay and then the other thing is with the main entrance you know um what are you doing in terms of maybe a mark ke for the stores that are all upstairs because if if I'm not looking up naturally I might look up quickly but you know from a branding and marketing standpoint each business should have its own sense of s of character like every business that you've showed us it's their own business right they're not competing with other people if you have a lawyer's office and then a pilates class and each of those signs you know on these blades you know I just feel it actually is more of a disadvantage than is Advantage with that I mean I see what you're saying I just feel like more than being generous nine is kind of hurts the tenants in in and of itself like if you have the Marquee downstairs where all the listings is I'm walking by I'm like oh there's a pilates class oh there's a lawyer's office and then maybe you know there's a limit to the maybe they buy into what sign you know how much of a signage that each business wants if they're going to take take 3,000 then that person gets more visibility than the person that's only taking 500 I I think you have a very good idea actually yeah and I think it's something we could explore if the town would be open to us having I'll use it like a a directory so to speak but vertical correct if we could not flat on the building people just walk by maybe vertical and then lit up on both sides corre listing the tenants corre and then maybe be also picking up on another very good idea of yours is to incorporate awnings again to draw attention so they know that there's something up there maybe they will be looking to see exactly and then the directory will help to give visibility for the people walking by it I think that's a very good idea actually okay thank you no further questions just before uh I just want a clarification for or the signage ordinance is each tenant does Monclair allow two blade signs per tenant so no the if it's on the same facade it's permitted one per tenant so this the conceptual review from what you were talking about with the zoning officer was seeing if prior to pursuing a variance potentially there the HPC would be amenable too having numerous signs yeah okay all right just wanted to clear that Mr Rooney um to have multiple blade signs up there I don't think is really going to solve your your problem except for maybe leasing out the whole floor at once but then I don't think it needs to stay up there I think your your problem is getting the you know the information out there that this is available but individual signs I think it has to go on PLS or whatever you call them what the plaques you know you list all all the businesses a marquee oh like a directory a directory yeah because you're not going to Crane your neck up and look I mean a lot of times um tenants are so known by their colors yes I mean I'm dating myself but like like Mandy's had that blue script you could be like 5 miles away you couldn't read the letters but you knew it was me like there's certain tenants that have that kind of identity and so you know some whether they or they have like unique colors like um Ulta has that very uh um orange color that if you're driving down and you see an orang you just know it's Al you don't even have to see their sign so it all depends on who is attracted to the building sometimes the color can really draw them in and know who they are okay I have no questions Mr gr uh can we go to the next slide so all the signs are going to be oriented um so that when you're driving they'll be on your right is that accurate you can see because they're all slanted right so the ones on Bloomfield are slanted to the east the ones on Park are slanted to the I think that's the north no they're vertical they're vertical they're going to be vertical out they're going to be perpendicular so the signs how are they they're going to be are they going to so they're going to be yes straight out okay like the existing ones on the first floor cuz it looks from that picture it's going to be very difficult to see the signs that are not when you're looking straight onto the building you're correct you won't be able to read them either you'd have to be sort of coming up or coming down either Park both ways and Bloomfield about to read them if you're looking straight onto the build building you're correct you would not be able to it really does seem like you're going to have to be right under it to if you're in the middle to even see which uh you know business is which right or which businesses are there um so I I tend doesn't that cause a problem of not providing enough um visibility for for the the um either through the graphics and color and the signs themselves draw attension and so that basic can you even see it the graphics some of those later signs middle signs right well I guess it all depends on where you are as you're traveling down that you're right it's almost like um you know some walls have like the signs that come down on the canopy like the first sign you can't really see the next one until you're a little bit further forward and then you can you know so you're right to some extent that if you're standing literally on the corner of balloon field looking down Park you may not be able to see like the third or fourth sign because the ones in front will block but as you move down Park you you get to have the visibility of the additional signs as you move forward and the distance between the signs on the first floor um how far do you you have a sense of what the distance is between those signs I mean it all depends on the width of the store I would say they're probably at least 20 ft apart cuz I would imagine the smallest yeah yeah yeah and what's the distance between the windows up top I would purely be guessing but I would say somewhere between 10 to 12T because that's just what the window is and downstairs you have a storefront so it's kind of a little different circumstance okay and that they are the the way it's rendered here it appears it's the length of the windows is that the way that it's intended yes to be so it'll be the length of the windows okay thank you no more questions for me um I have a couple of questions so um what you're proposing is is it's more than signage I mean you're proposing this kind of cacophony of of of visuals as you go down the street is your intent to put the signs up now even though you don't have tenants or so would so uh well we may put the actual like braces up waiting for the graphics or the S for the tenant to sort of slide in just as when the tenant moves out on the first floor we don't take the the upper and lower piece off the building we just take the graphic metal piece in between so when the next tenant comes they just put their piece in so we probably would go ahead and put the structures up to receive the graphic SL sign depending upon how it works out yeah well that was part of my question how would you be able to determine that they would all be the same you know if you were man facturing them peace meal they would be empty now waiting for how it's ultimately and who the tenants are and how they want to take advantage of this exposure so so basically what we're discussing is is um it's really at it's really changing the I I think it's changing the character of the building um with so many I'm not opposed to Blade signs at all I think you've given an argument that is persuasive that and we certainly want to see uh you know the commercial District Thrive um but uh I I that's my opinion that you're changing the character building with so many signs I mean I don't see uh would you be would you be amable to cutting them the number in half and do it every other window or I how many how many windows are there 12 it's there's uh 16 not 16 windows but there's uh 19 signs 19 signs you counted 19 I actually counted the the on Park Avenue there are 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Windows right and on Bloomfield there's one two three four I thought there was five on Bluefield no uh one two three well five this says oh well I guess there's one that's sort of catty corner I guess right yeah okay so you count that that'd be five yeah okay so what we're doing we're looking at 17 correct is it 17 or 19 19 I believe 19 size it's a simple math this is scary I'm counting the I'm counting Corner two okay so there's 12 on Park Street two on the corner and five on Bluefield right Windows right right signs sign so you're for 19 okay all right um so another question when you're done I have another no no no go please my question is you're targeting retail for the second floor uh are you targeting all also simple office shoes where people normally don't have any kind of sign on the exterior I would say we won't rule out office but our primary focus is hopefully to attract retail because our feeling is um the Synergy with the first floor it would be more beneficial for the upstairs but nobody wants retail and somebody his office you know we would we rent it out his office okay cuz that's the difference so second floor is a an office us the the uh business or or profession or others occupying simply as an office a business office it doesn't normally depend on the retail visual uh presence that you're trying to get by making the second floor also a a retail space I guess we've been spoiled because this building has always had retail it seems on the second floor and uh Urban Outfitters has a twole location right so in that building on the second floor there's retail there too right um so I think our our first hope is that it ends up being something retail in nature okay thank you can I yes so you know I think that we're all saying that this the blades are nice I think it's the quantity and the and the Assumption of really not knowing what's going there right so you're asking us if we would approve blade signs but then once you figure out like who's going in what the square footage is or what you end up doing with it you need to come back with us anyway on the quantity or are we just going to are you asking for us to just give you free will I guess free will but because want to tell conceptual idea they can yeah that they can expect that they can have X amount of Blade you know whether uh um you know it's sort of like if 19 is too many and as you suggested every other right is that something that the board would feel like trying to some feedback and then I guess my question is I know you brought it up but I would just like some feedback from the other board members would the board be open to warnings is that something that's on the table that we one awning all the way across no we would probably put I don't we might make separate awnings over every window okay because um maybe if you know let's AR say that the building is broken up into four tenants right each tenant may have a different color within keeping of the color of that particular branding of that particular T well that's not something that we're we're we're uh we've got moved away from that to try to keep everything uniform on a building well that was my question is is that on the table as a conversation or you or pretty much uh no I think is wanting something that the board would feel comfortable allowing us to do or they want us to stick with the blades well before why don't we hear from Mr small do you have any questions for the applicant because that's opening us up now to discussion comments um these blade signs would be in addition to what's in the windows right on the second floor I mean I don't know what the tenants might do in the windows but they they might do something right I can't rule that out it all depends on the tenant um I mean I would say the more exposure maybe we have with the blad sign with the number they may be less inclined to put additional stuff in the window I can't rule that out and the the less amount of Blade signs and the lack of comfort in terms of visibility and exposure they may be more inclined to put more in the window I don't really know cover by ordinance yeah they got do yeah yeah 20% of the window or whatever um and any possibility that these are illuminated we were um I think I don't think any of the um would you be open to allow them to be eliminated it's not something we already thought about I mean cuz I will say on the first floor where we have that like structure with the angle there's sort of like there is lights that sort of like shine up almost like LED that kind of shine up so there would be the opportunity potentially to put sort of uh lighting either on top or the bottom to line them up is that something that the board would would be open to I'm only asking because the thickness of the we were not originally thinking that way but I want to get you too excited um but I like the idea the the thickness of the blade sign you're proposing would lend itself to being able to be illuminated quite easily and you know in the future it might be something you need to consider when you think about the whole application um conceptually going back to our design guidelines for a moment um signage is meant to be second to a historic building in a historic district and I think what's being proposed with a dozen plus blade signs it's really becoming certainly an architectural element and I think it's actually becoming a dominant architectural element especially for the second floor uh which really isn't appropriate and and even thinking about like half the quantity I still think it's a dominant architectural element um the repetitiveness and what it's doing to a bozarts building that's generally a flat facade that comes out a little at the top and now we're introducing all these fins it's it's really competing with with that that architectural style although we do have them on the first floor yeah and I think the build I don't know how people feel but I don't think it's detracted from the building the uh the blad sign's on the first floor just is I know reasonable people could differ but they're in less fre they're in far less frequency they're far far farther apart and the second floor being you know left untouched does kind of mitigate any impact that those signs would have well I mean that's why we're here to have a conversation absolutely you know you know just to get a feel about how the board feels about it what leeway how how comfortable they are to let us do this to balance obviously the historical element with the reality of trying to keep a building Leed and have quality tenants that don't fail and turn over I know it's a balancing act and that's why we're really here to get the board's input so we have some direction okay thank you if there are any other questions I'll ask if the public anybody here want to speak to this no okay so why don't we um then um open it up for discussion um I tend to completely agree with Mr small and I think it's becoming a dominated Domin ating factor a dominating architectural um element and looking at the 360 uh Bloomfield uh signage it's half the size of the windows they're smaller the uh uh the the signs on that building are farther apart they don't seem to really dominate the facade of that building um they're less um this is going to just immediately uh uh take all of your attention if if you see uh um you know signage like this it blocks out completely the windows blocks out completely I can't even see on uh Park Street the top part of the building anymore um I I think it's just too aggressive for that building and um as has been mentioned I'm also not against blade signs in general it's just uh uh this is uh in my opinion um just too overwhelming is there a number that you do feel comfortable I'd have to see it and it's it's hard to make a a a guess at that right now but um I tend to also agree that even half of those signs would still be um a dominant architectural element so I I'd be concerned about the number and frequency because if we did them every other just as far as a conversation that's probably even probably further apart than the other building that I sense from you that you feel comfortable with the um it's a complet it's it's also a different facade but uh but I would also say it's a different type of sign it's half the size it's not as thick um it's um it's it's very different so I I would have to see um what else you'd be proposing in the size to be comfortable with it even if it were cut in half would you feel more comfortable with every between every window if the sign was not as tall as the window half as tall not between every window possibly you know every other possibly but again I would I would have to see it have to see the the thickness of the sign the and the the height you know it's just again this this just feels overwhelming I just want some direction to try to see excuse me what other Concepts that we could probably that we could sort of try to put together to come back and have a conversation about that that that you feel comfortable is sort of if it's sort of along this line I think I can get behind it that kind of that's kind of I see and I respect that look this is um I Echo the chair's comments we want to see the business district Thrive and we don't want to be a burden uh but I do think um this could also detract from other buildings in the area detract from the potential attractiveness of other buildings setting up shop there if they think that it's going to be you know basically a billboard like you know it's going to be Las Vegas in in Montclair now right so I just want to also um I I do tend to to looking just looking at the you know Google gole Maps the the building you reference at 360 I I feel more comfortable with that um if that's any help to you all I I I don't know um but I just also know that I'm uncomfort very uncomfortable with this design um yeah are you guys open to directory that you mentioned on the first floor so the people would know oh if you go upstairs I think that's pretty standard right yeah that's fairly standard in town as far as I'm aware yeah okay that's illuminated perpendicular to the building oh I don't say illuminated are they illuminated very Tastefully you know like you see you know like almost Spotlight kind of thing or uh uh um internal internal I don't mean like a I don't mean like a pylon sign that you see of a shopping center Tastefully done I'm trying to think of but um there's a example town I don't know I don't think so right I don't think illumination um no illumination is okay but uh yeah and then directory in general General is a good idea but and you're speaking of of of the directory as a as as a plate sign no no you you someone suggested on the board of directory on the first floor so when you're standing by the door you're able to see what tenants are on the second floor when entrance have to go in to go either up stairs or up the elevator right at that location absolutely is there also is there any other type of second floor signage that I guess the board would feel more comfortable with or kind of could lead us to a direction that you guys would feel comfortable got the signs in here I don't think it's the type of sign right I think it's the frequency right isn't that more of the concern and Awning is not on the table I don't think thought I wasn't I was just trying to come up with some ideas no I think awnings for a bozar building if you all the way across would not be appropriate it would be there I'm not sure it helps you but it would be just over the window so there' be a gap between every awning it wouldn't be a continuous awning it would be an awning in between just over the glass so the stone that comes down in between would be remaining um well let's hear from uh Mr Ry ryet um onings to me are out of the question so I would object to that and quite frankly it's not even a matter of every other window I think blade signs that relate to that tenant is what you install you know that's it would we be would the board field C give us permission to put multiple blade signs for one tenant whether here's here here's I'm looking at this little rendering here first of all looks like a two foot this could have been a two foot Edition off the side of the building looking at it you know it's changing the whole what what what what if uh eight of those blade signs were one color and at this end eight BL and you had one single one in the middle you would actually lose that single um blade sign in the middle he would get lost in in with all the others right well I you're correct but I don't Envision it being subdivided where the one tenant would end up with just literally one window I don't think it's going to be subdivided quite that significantly so it would it would have aor a decent amount of Frontage um so they would have maybe three or four signs per se it would it wouldn't get to the point as you're describing where somebody would just literally have like 12et of space one window and one blade side caught in between people on either side I don't Envision something like that possible um those are my comments okay thank you Mr Rooney well I think that we should just follow what our guidelines are which is one per tenant and if you have I mean in you've got two two different elevations you can have two you know like Bloomfield and um Park Street but they have multiple ones unless it's considered to be an art installation it's not going to work so now on the on multiple right BL side okay although the I get as I said that other building does have quite a few for one tenant which one you refence pokey um where's the Poke don't that we just looked at that today they have one they have one for each tenant the ground FL what we were looking at today was the ground floor uh facad signage yeah talking about sign this has oh yeah oh can't I'm not really sure I can't really read the see more importantly that that that's just one store with one blade sign you know whereas I the way I'm looking at this is I actually see it as a disadvantage to the building and to the tenants when you have so many like it's just it's it's I think it's disadvantage I mean I and I feel for you because I can't really think of how else you would do it other than the Marquee in front which as people are walking by they're like oh you know but up top you know I mean I wouldn't oppose to I wouldn't be opposed to maybe two or three like I mean everybody would have to agree to it to it degree but I just think it's a disadvantage to the building as well to that many so many if you didn't even if you and if even if you had all signs up and you had 75% occupancy then you'll have chances are you may have you know a quarter of signs missing and that's going to be even that would be a little bit of a an i itself so I mean maybe temporarily until it was rented but yeah but still it it still becomes an eyesore when I mean if the board would prefer I mean if we got to the point that we were sort of on the same page and we had some direction and you would prefer us not to put them up until we until the we knew who the tenant was rather than putting them in advance and you know we could doesn't have to go up as you're concerned that if it was 75 that the 25% that hadn't been rented you wouldn't see empty blade signs waiting for that tent to be rented we would wait until we rented it and then put the blade signs up at that well that was my question how how are you going to uh be assured that everything would be the same if you if you did it peace meal you wouldn't you couldn't because every tener would have to so if the signs were you said to put you put up the the uh frames frame right just like on the first floor the frames are there yeah so every time so each tenant would know that they would have to be 2T wide by we'll say 7 ft tall right it would just have to be 2T wide so they would all be uniform okay one tenant wouldn't be 3ot wide the next tenant 2 feet or 9 ft and 6 feet they would all be uniform so each tenant as they excuse me it was rented that's the dimension that's the dimension your sign has to be period there'd be no variation just on the first floor there's no variation M the blade signs at 360 I didn't realized how many different businesses they have up there but they're all the same color right they all the same color scheme so it Blends in a little bit better with the building um and then if they were blank it wouldn't be so um obvious right cuz they're all the same color um I don't know if that's something to consider as well I mean be honest with you I I don't disagree with that comment but sometimes what happens in roll in color it just blurs that you can't see any of them fair you know I mean like I have um I manage a shopping center and um one particular Center has like all the same color you can't like read any of the signs it's weird and and they're all red so it's not like a color that's not vibrant and then you'll go to another Center which is really the the um evolution of signage where every attendant has a very particular color and design and I think it ends up being a more beautiful look and because each color pops because it's not next to the exact same color right okay um Mr Sweeney we didn't hear from you yet I think the uh the number and size and almost the uni and the uniformity of the signs makes it look like clutter it makes it uh it changes the whole character of the block and it changes the whole character of the building so uh I don't like any of the frequency and I think even half of it uh would not uh do it I think you should consider different kind of uh signs flag signs not the frequency that you have here and um it's combination being on the second floor where it's really visible from a distance and and I think this picture unfortunately um really makes it look like it's uh overwhelming so uh I like the idea of putting something on the first floor with a directory that's a way a lot of people do it and I think um uh you know depending on the type of tendency you can Target retail up there but uh a lot of retailing goes online and has has um uh either an internet or some kind of electronic uh media so so that's more dependent but I I so those are my general comments on it is the not much that I like about the way it's presented but I say clutter with the number and size is there something that you would like to see that you think would be sort of a good balancing between some of your concerns but trying to provide some visibility exposure to potential tenants up there that come to mind that we no it's not my personal but but but what you what I would suggest is you look at some other uh communities and other FL communities that have used extensively flag signs we in Monclair we're really just starting to I mean we haven't had a lot of uh the flag signs but you've uh you'll see they have different colors different sides and shape one of the things I don't like about it is the uniformity of all the signs they're all going to be same structural uh uh signs same same size and you're going to have colors in it that's going to detract from the historic character of both the South Park area and the building so you would like to see the I'll use the word blade signs but VAR iation among them I like to see variation I don't like to see the number it's uh if you if you have this kind of frequency my first word as I said it looks like excessive clutter and it looks like uh it looks like the most densely populated Downtown City uh in all of uh New Jersey or maybe even New York would you like to see some of the blade signs metal and some fabric like in terms of different material like that that to me would be a preference because it it does emphasize the distinction and and the variety and variation of what's what the would you want the Heights and widths different for variation or you prefer the uniformity in that regard I'm only suggesting what you should consider it's not the uh I'm just looking at saying initially what you proposed how does that impact on the care character of the neighborhood character of The District character of the building and all of those in my view negatively affect that character and uh uh do not uh satisfy applicable standards and I'm just trying to get some feedback if I can of what would be acceptable to this board so that we can explore uh some ideas the director we're going to look into that's one idea I think I was i' come away from this meeting which I think is positive as we explore this back and forth with each other and we're open to modification but I'm trying to get a sense from the board of well I think you you you uh you've got window signs in here you find the window signs and each one is different in the within the window you don't find those uh adequate yeah that might you would be you'd be open to if we had window signs for these well you have them here that's AER that's that's just like a shade of Sharon Miller yeah we didn't that's not like that's just what the tenant did but we're trying to get something like a sign package that we could show a future tenant of you could have this if you rent this okay so you're here for conceptual review I think you've heard from everybody here that we really don't um agree with this this uh parade of Blade sign have another comment I mean if you're looking for some feed back I would say that the see it all the time window signs Sharon Miller had in here is a better solution because you still have the windows you have the structure of the building you have the facade and we're only talking about to me that's if you need to get would the board be open to signs above the windows illuminated would that be on the table of the conversation signs above the windows don't think so no there's no no no you know what his this building in the historic business district we have to look we have to look at the building and this and the uh architectural style of it and what I when I first spoke I I feel when you're looking you're adding an additional architectural element to What's called the Barts building that should really be um I mean these almost look like shutters like you're adding shutters to it that this parade here so no I don't there's no sign band above here and um I don't think you know if if that that would be um I mean I look at the at the window signs that which I think is is more than adequate with a with a directory at the down at the we we only propos a blade because we thought by duplicating what was on the first floor on the second floor that would be something that the board would would yes and in theory perhaps you're right but you've got like almost 20 blade signs up there on a on a historically clean building so you know and our ordinance says that it's one per tenant one one last little question so the the ultimate thing that you're doing here is that people are not aware they're not seeing when they go by and you want to be able to attract a potential leasy in the building right so I would have thought maybe you'd want to put just one sign that says for lease on the second floor so as people are driving by that one oh this isn't for us we're not we're not trying to help with leasing sign this is for the ultimate and you no this is not this for the tenant this is for the tenant ten okay but to get the tenants to come in I'm saying no to get the you know the attraction to people to say to a tenant if you lease from us this is adantage count on and feel comfortable that you'll have the exposure okay right so I think what you've heard from us conceptually that we're not in agreement with the the number of Blade signs that you've put around the building in between each one the size may be over I don't know even know if the size is within our our ordinance um I don't know if if you've checked that I think what you've heard is that the window signs that are here um you also have to check by ordinance if that the window signs are um the size is compatible to our ordinance and also with the number of tenants I believe that for the window signs is a certain square footage per each tenant so I mean this Sharon Miller she's got the like an aqua a gray a red and a pink is that what you're looking for like it pops out I mean it's it's something that pops that colors pop that could be yeah yeah I I I think that doesn't detract from the historic fabric fabric of the building right and and I think that when you look at the top I mean you're proposing to put a uh illuminated sign on basically which is the lentil up there which wasn't wasn't you know wasn't designed to be a sign band so you're going to have it it's going to be totally out of proportion can all right do you have anything else to I I would look to get more mileage out of the entrance mhm um would you be open to potentially taking a window panel out and put an actual sign in the window like if we took a the a piece of the glass out and we put a sign there so it's not behind the window it's almost part of the window of a sign for what purpose to identify the tenant do you mean so you take out not the whole window you're saying a panel potentially a panel of the window and put a sign in of the panel instead of it potentially being glass we're able to put a tenant sign there well um doesn't this go to that would be an ordinance question I think right building that could be something that could be replaced right that what they're installing as a sign they're not really destroying the fabric of the building and it can always be returned to being glass at the same time it sort of feels like a like almost like a loophole to the 20% mhm allowance within a window you're just removing the window and then filling it 100% well that's what I was asking though would would that um be a building code issue yeah I'd have to talk to Richard to get the specifics because it's not something that's come up before but I imagine it would function like putting a window graphic up that covered that panel which if it's complies with the 20% would but is that something we want to open up that people are allowed to take Windows out and put in and put in signs I don't think so okay this isn't you have to this is trying they consider you know like a where they have a peel and mural well that's what that's what we were just talking about yeah I could like stick it into the glass yeah when I say sign that's what it that's what so what Sharon Miller has here are these banners that are in the window I tell you truth I never noticed them until I Shades I guess I went went down to the building maybe the shade was up that Shades I never even noticed them before okay but I think that gives you the I mean it pops the color and it and it and and uh all right so you've heard from us conceptually nobody's in agreement with the which is very unusual actually I I can give one other suggestion that is you consider uh placing a sign of sign not at the level you have it but but at the U sort of Midway in the divider between the first floor and the second floor it's a lower level it just makes it less dominant less uh less overwhelming uh and what kind of sign do you would well you'd have I think a smaller sign I mean I'm just looking at this and I can't quite read it because of the site you've got a little flag sign here I think it's for probably Rumble you know if you if you envision that sign another foot or two higher it could really be attractive for identifying the the um retail operations on the second floor but without being at a point in size would dominates the whole building understand um qu and I'm going to be in disagreement with you because that that is it doesn't ident historically if that was a sign ban it would be to identify the first floor tenant so you wouldn't you yeah you wouldn't read that it was for the second floor tenant and no I would say it would have to be a little higher my my then it would destroy the symmetry of this whole building yeah okay I you know all of the I was I didn't say it's going to necess work but I said it would looked it would look like it's not as dominant as these big um U Metal Blade signs at the level that they are and with the frequency we've all object Ed to the frequency mhm yeah so that's that's so what I'm kind of hearing I saying something that looks less dominant domination of the appearance of the building is one of the points we keep making so you make a smaller sign it's lower and it's not uh you know but that would have to come before us anyway if if that was the case I know that well this is conceptual it's only conceptual yeah we're only here just to get feedback and there some banter and ideas is and see what your feeling is or suggestions did you have one more comment before we close um Oh I thought you I thought you you said no okay you know exactly where we are though right no idea because everybody has a different thought okay well that no no no that gave you a conceptual Direction so and we do agree on the uh the the on the first floor having a directory we we tend to agree with the window signage within the 20% uh requirements um and I think we all agree no removing Windows to put in a sign and also less frequency less uh BL signs are still on the table just not as frequent right I think if you come back and show us this rendering again you should show put colors right on those because this is also very deceiving the way it's because we didn't know what colors to put because it depends on the tenant it could be used bright orange right because you're saying that could happen what if those were all red that wouldn't you know that doesn't work right so uh I would come back with fewer and show some color so we could get a real get a better feel for what it is that goes to the variety I was talking about but it's the building itself is a historic and unique and very visible building well yes and as you know we we really do want to see the um Central business district Thrive it's just that we have it's a balance so I agree with you right so and this is really a Prime Building there uh and the facade is absolutely lovely so okay so maintain really love wonderful thank you thank you very good night good luck good night thank you sure are we're going to take a five minute uh break please just five minutes thank you e e e e e e e e e e e e e oh wait he said he was going to get us back and we are back okay thank you for being so patient our next our next uh order of new business is application 20 24-18 608 Valley Road um this is uh filed with us for storefront Rehabilitation at the subject property and as I mentioned before uh this is something that we've uh heard before and we the design Review Committee has met a number of times at the sites and thank you very much for looking at uh and um considering our our suggestions so having said that you have a uh new plan for the facade and um if you you still under oath so if you could just uh identify yourself again sure I'm I'm Frank Hall architect for the applicant and we're here to talk about everything except our signage that's good so in in brief we had a previous application we're here over the summer August I think ju July okay it was that far back so we we had an application before where uh in brief we were proposing to change a lot and we're back here proposing to change very little um the uh the drawing that you see up on the screen there is a is the new version where essentially what we're looking to do is just to rehabil itate largely the materials that were there and keep the uh keep the storefront largely intact other than removing a section of the skirt roof that appeared that that existed over the entrance to the second floor so we propos to remove that give the second floor entrance its own uh identity with the the original brick and Limestone around that entrance and keep the wood and wood wood Shake roofed skirt roof that has existed for many years uh as the identity of the first floor restaurant uh with removal of the storm door that exists now uh which would reexposed the uh terazzo entry ramp which was the source of much discussion in the intervening months since we were last here um just to go give a a brief rundown of the elements uh that are addressed by this drawing uh the wood Shake roof uh would get new wood shakes uh it just needs to be re rehabilitated it's old and and worn uh along the front of that skirt roof would be a black painted gutter which I think was actually something that we were uh encouraged to to include and it does make sense it's a skirt roof even though it's it's short it does still have the potential to to rain water down on people's heads if they're walking too close to the building um under that little skirt roof overhang we proposed to reinstall the the Charming uh lanterns that hung there as the identity of the previous restaurant um around the existing window we propose to keep the window other than we might need to reglaze it with an insulated glazing panel in Li of the glass that's in the window um around the entrance and around the door would be wood trimmed to match the uh the wood siding the wood siding also would be replaced as it is also worn deteriorated uh and is proposed we say on the drawing here to replace with new cedar siding with either a a stained or a charred wood finish and since I drew this uh our contractor has become an expert in charring wood and we're now leaning heavily toward towards charred wood and I have a sample of it here if anyone would like to see it I also have um an image of the existing storefront if anybody would like to have that as a as a visual aid can I I I just have that printed oh we well we do have uh we do have the old um application which somewhere on here it's in the plan report in the plannner report as well but I I do have a number of these be oh great right right thank you and now can we see the wood sure I just caution um this needs to get a clear finish on it do not yet have one so get a little bit of car gloves on pretend you're in la O I'll start over this end here it's interesting surface treatment it's it's literally chart with aame and I learned that the chart on both sides will do work once it's Char you move the organic material the hand the handheld microphone something the bter if you need to move if I'm drawing yes your house may I ask how you came about the to this uh yeah is a tradition it it was actually a suggested uh by the designer because the like the original submission was prepared by the owner's uh ostensibly interior designer who also does some exterior design and he came up with a chart idea and the reason for the stain or chart is we were a little bit cross purposes who was saying what to whom about the Char was the intention or stain was the intention but uh everybody's gotten in alignment with the uh the Char and this is a traditional Japanese uh application yeah it it is yes it's it's become popular uh here now also uh contemporary it's resistant weather resistant yes with no nothing Well it it is advisable to put a clear finish on it uh so when people are going by and brush up against the building uh they don't get black on their clothes and uh it also helps to uh to just protect it from from a bra element right moist and that's what you're proposed to do yes okay does anybody want to so that would that would be the siding and the trim around the opening as well okay um oh so it's not the um the slat the the uh Cedar you're saying yeah all the wood the the wood siding and and the trim around the door and window oh I see the material understood okay so certainly where people are walking adjacent to it going in and out we'd have to put a clear finish on it okay or people would have so the so the exterior and the and the I'm calling the entryway would be finished in the same type of wood that's the intention the the interior surface the side walls of the entrance okay we get the same treatment and so it's weather resistant meaning like it doesn't swell you know it doesn't have any of the concerns that like wood over time would have or Cedar itself is a naturally durable wood because of the oils that are in it and charring it uh further makes the uh the exterior of it weather resistant yes so before we ask questions do you have anything else to add to your description um other than to say that the signage is not yet ironed out again there was a little bit of uh uh wires being crossed as to who was proposing you know which signage and which signage vendor and so forth so we want to iron that out other than to say that you know there's there's a sign proposed over the door to the second floor restaurant M and there's a small uh Lantern like sign that's going to be proposed to the right of the entrance Door mhm very very small the the idea I understand is a is a small illuminated Lantern like sign uh with uh Asian characters on identifying the restaurant um projecting them from the wall slightly uh 4 in or or less so it would be in keeping with Ada regulations and what does this mean jonetsu that's the name of the uh the first floor restaurant oh the second floor restaurant is minoru the first floor of restaurant is jonetsu which is anashi uh Sushi concept thank you anything else to add before we open up to questions uh no I don't think so okay uh Mr Pierre why did you start we'll go this way any questions um no I don't have any questions Mr Sweeney I don't have any questions either Miss Floyd no questions Mr Roy when you shorten the uh overhang what are you going to do on the edges I'm the FL on on the the side surface it it's a wood finish just like the right hand Edge is now okay John uh I don't have any questions um I don't have any questions to you I don't have any questions Mr smallen can I make comments now or um we could start with comments we could start with comments because I don't think there's any I would only reiterate um when we last reviewed this back in July July um a comment I had made in the report was related to materials being compatible um and similar in character to two traditional materials found throughout the district um I think that's excerpted from design guidelines and I I questioned at the time how teak and gray Pebbles and Porcelain uh would be compatible with the other predominantly T tutor Revival buildings in uh upper Monclair I think we reached kind of a conclusion that that's stucko for the um storefront treatment at the time has some basis in t to Revival architecture between the half timbering I'm not sure the same connection can be made for charred Cedar it's certainly an interesting material um I just don't think it has enough um really basis or um car you know it's s similar in character to really anything you see in Upper Monclair um so I I have some concern about that but given that daichi had opened some thir almost 40 years ago and that design has been there for probably that entire time would that change your um uh calculation does it become significant like in its own right or does it just become I mean it's they're they're almost just replacing what was there um in a very similar fashion does that change the uh I mean what we're dealing with here is is a non-historic altered facade it's a historic building but the alteration that was done uh back in I think around 1980 is what we determined they abouts when they undid the bakery from 1934 um you're taking out non-historic material you're putting in I think let's say visually louder non-historic material um I I don't think the ch Cedars is appropriate for a facade in a his historic district it's interesting it's difficult I mean like architecturally to say no to something like that um but I think we have to just consider it in this very specific context thank you I I do find that um a compelling argument but I do also think though given daichi's history in that spot how long they had a similar type of facade um maybe it wasn't charred um Cedar but it was certainly similar enough in my estimation um based on the visuals where I would be comfortable with more of a updated replacement of that I mean there might be a middle ground where the charred Cedar goes um within the entryway so it's not fronting the the street and the street remains like a stained Cedar kind of like what it is today um I think that would make that would kind of diminish the appearance of the chart catar within the composition um which might be a decent compromise well with that in mind do you have any other comments uh my comments are in general um um supportive generally supportive of the redesign um we greatly appreciate the tazzo being considered um I I uh I think um it's a wise decision to remove the awning from the other entry way to make it more distinctive and to reveal some of the old character um and the signage that was already up there um uh previously and just in general supportive of uh the new design John um this is a vast improvement over what we've seen previously um comments uh I think getting rid of the overhang over the brick facade to the left and exposing that brick work um I would only say uh we would ask that I know what kind of condition it's in that it get repaired as much as possible and patched um I think this material if the trim and and the siding is the same color it's going to be it's going to read as flat I I I realize it's not a material It's relatively new material uh I think uh the recess with the the only comment I would make maybe and I don't know what anyone else thinks about this is I would get rid of the little pediment on the on the uh the roof and just simplify that a little bit but we we we did take that under consideration but thought that as inconspicuous as that entrance is otherwise that the the slight emphasis of the entrance yeah I get it the was worth it it's still my comment though I got I got it so those are my comments Mr Rooney I have no comments M Floyd no comments um what do you think about the the uh as it's presented though no I like it oh that's a comment that's I like it that's good oh that's what we're we're my comment is I like it too okay I'm happy with the way it looks yeah um Mr Sweeney my comment is uh it's it's an improvement I like it I I don't have any uh difficulty or concern about the uh the chart or solid um uh Cedar it's the same material it just has a different color and different uh uh finish and so I would support everything El and Mr Pier I I personally like it and it's a big Improvement for what what we saw during the summer so and um i' just like to add I I I agree with I I understand Mr smen's comments about uh if you're redoing the facade to have it more indicative of what is already in the historic district however agreeing with I also agree with John that once this is up you're not going to be able to it'll read as one um One Flat one plane and I think it has a um you know it certainly is different from any other of these storefronts that are that are here but it it by by removing that uh skirt roof over the entryway to the second floorway I think you've really exposed you know at least a quarter of the original facade and we also know that the brick work the original brick work doesn't exist under what's there now so um I think taking that into consideration and understanding that when you put this up it's reversible for the next person that comes in I would be in agreement with what you you've proposed here and I just want to make make um uh understand that there's nothing being proposed to the rear of the building right uh no other other than a change in signage signage name and that'll come to us so I think and really thank you for working with us as far as the taso floor goes because I think we it'll be really interesting so how does do you have a picture of the Tazo floor did you uh were you able to clean it um hasn't gotten that point yet okay well let us know cuz we'll stop by probably eat there yeah and just you know the the what happens with the signage over the second floor entrance while I'm thinking of is going to be a function of how well that Limestone cleans up okay it's it's covered in Black mastic on the black what black mastic oh mastic but it's not all it's not entirely cover right it's it's a mess right it just needs to be repaired okay well well you've got your work cut after you thank you very much so we are with a couple conditions yes go ahead um I would just for sayam is just the condition uh to repair the brick work uh above the entry on the left and you know if no one else has any opinion about that little pediment I I can with that so that's that would be my only I think condition that I would suggest so to clean and repair the brick workk in Limestone um to the entrance although are you proposing to cover that little Limestone U element um only if it can't be cleaned up without deteriorating the Limestone okay but you got to put a sign there so you got to cover it one way or the other right it's a question of whether it's individual letters exposing the Limestone or whether it's a panel that covers the LI that would be nice mhm um and I guess the Tazo is here still here and you'll come back for the uh another conditions come back for the signing and and uh lighting right oh wait I didn't indicate uh that underneath that skirt roof is proposed a uh an LED strip to to wash the uh the facade okay call that on the plan there at the top of the sheet where's that oh okay it's against the building and I'll wash down the side um oh so you where is the leader for the the gutter oh that's if you're looking at the photograph that photograph was before they redid the sidewalk and ran the gutter under the sidewalk the the the leader is existing for the U the seconds into it okay okay so that exists and what about this lighting what do you think of the lighting that well they're just replacing what's there they're replacing no no no no the led the strip we we would be comfortable with a I mean I indicated as 2700k lighting I think we'd be comfortable with an with a condition that it be intensity right I don't have a problem with that okay so low and I think the warm light is better than a cooler light so I think that's fine okay so warm intensity a low intensity of of the strip all right any other I think that's it then right that's it yeah okay all right and just to make sure that I um that this is really you know it's it's so um daffis now that comes off you really need to make sure that it there's a uh coating on it so people don't oh Absol absolutely right we don't want to be upsetting patrons who come in with with carbon on their elbows I think the gutter along the front is a big improvement too because I can imagine water dripping onto the sidewalk freezing you know in the winter and also dripping on people going by so I think that's that's an program it's interesting the uh to the right it looks like uh it's very nice thank you very much thank you again we VK oh we have to vote sorry okay Jes and it's only 9:30 um so um the uh Zab can you read us back what the conditions are and before we vote yeah so the conditions include repairing the brick work and Limestone above the entryway to the second floor restaurant uh returning to the commission for approval for the signage does that include the lighting or no signage and lighting signage and lighting okay right there's um so the low intensity LED strip warm light is not a condition at this moment no that is a condition yeah yeah there's should be three right that we're okay with it but it should be a low intensity warm light 2700k is actually indicated on the plan so uh the LED strip should be low intensity with warm light and then there should be a clear coating on the Charwood right okay protective I guess clear protective uh with those conditions I move that we approve this application second um only favor I I okay so we're all in favor all right thank you thank you Mr Hall thank you very much and thank you everybody reli you you want your pictur do you want the sample you can take this I'll how's it coming along start the first first floor is second Flor is the okay so now the last thing on our agenda is anab can you just give us an update on the current CLG Grant where we are with that yes so the current CLG Grant is the 2024 Upper Montclair commuter area survey Phase 2 um the grant was executed today with the New Jersey historic preservation office so that means that once our uh RFP um submission period closes which is tomorrow at 3: uh we are all cleared to execute a grant or a contract with our consultant um that's probably not going to happen until we review all of the applications and we also have to review our contract agreement with the New Jersey historic preservation office so um more updates to come how many applications uh have you okay yeah all right well thank you for that of course all right so having gotten to adjournment who would like to Mr Sweeney all in favor good night everyone thank you congratulations on everything for