##VIDEO ID:AwlqguELWYE## good evening everyone this is a regular meeting of the zoning Board of adjustment for Wednesday September 4th 2024 notice has been given in ordance with the open public meetings act by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of the municipal building and sending a copy to the Montclair times Star Ledger and Herald news this is a public Hearing in which any members of the public are welcome to attend the meeting agenda is available on the Montclair website as is a link to the Township's YouTube channel where the hearing can be viewed live or after the fact the hearing is also being televised on Channel 34 I'll Now call the role chair Harrison here Vice chair Mulla is not present Mr Coffield is not present Mr church here Miss Harris is not present Mr Moore is not present Mr Simon is not present Mr Vieira here miss Jamina is not present Mr Griffith here Mr Cruz here and we have uh Joe turello uh for Mike Sullivan today pres yes okay just loost okay we have the um minutes of the August 21st meeting does anyone have any changes I do not if not someone want to move the I'll move the minut second okay all in favor say I I I any extensions um okay um the next resolution I can't participate in brother so someone else needs to either make changes or move approval of the resolution which one's that the Monclair Co-op Co-op yeah I had no changes I don't have any CH you want to move it I'll move the uh resolution with no changes second I guess I can say all in favor i i i and the opposed and abstentions I abstain and we have the resolution for the property on Mountainside Park Terrace uh I have a couple changes to that on uh the first paragraph on page two on on the fourth line um after the sentence that starts additionally in Infinity swimming pool will be in so put the word partially in the front yard and then in the last line of that um sentence at it the beginning um the changes resulted in a 40ft squ foot reduction it wasn't just the pool change that did that cuz the pool got bigger any other changes to that resolution no someone want to move the resolution with that those changes I'll move the resolution with the changes and second all in favor say I I I any opposed any extensions and we have the resolution for the art of Reign on Church Street I don't have any changes does anyone else have any changes if not someone want to move the resolution I'll move the resolution Mr chairman second all in favor say I I any opposed any extensions first application is that of Ralph fuchi and Carla Macaluso for property at 17 Laurel Place this is an application for variances to construct a complete second floor plus attic addition to the dwelling the property is located in the R11 family Zone District the corner of Laurel Place in Upper Mountain Avenue is designated on the touch chip tax maps on Lot 24 and block 802 variants are requested from on cler COD section 34745 B2 to permit a setback of less than 36 ft from Laurel Place and a setback of less than 32 ft from Upper Mountain Avenue and a rear yard setback of and from moner code section 34 7- 45d to permit a rear yard setback of less than 28 ft are taxes in order and not is the notice in order are taxes paid yes okay okay who do we have hello can you hear me excellent okay whoever is going to be testifying needs to be sworn in it's your yeah so whoever just we're going have one witness testified he's the owner can you raise your right hand yes do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're going to give in this matter is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do it is and can you please state your name spell for the record my name is Ralph r a l p last name is Luchi Lu U CCI thank you thank you okay good evening thank you everyone on the board and Tab for listening to our case this evening um we are here before you to look for approval for renovations on our home so 17 Laurel Place I'm here with my wife Carla Macaluso and our architect Lawrence Quirk who has worked in Monclair before uh I won't take up too much your time this is a little bit of backstory I um just wanted to give uh we've lived in Montclair for 17 years uh I lived three years prior in an apartment complex and um we bought the home in 2007 near the train station because I commute uh into New York City and uh we love the location we love Presby Irish Gardens and Mills and just everything about where we are uh and so does our dog so uh it's just the home has been a little bit tight for us uh it's only two bedrooms and so we don't have a lot of space and so uh We've looked sometimes several times uh at finding other homes but we just love our location and so it has been a while but it's been a lot of planning and saving and planning and saving uh to build the Second Story onto the home which we humbly submit for your review so uh again we love the the area we love our neighbors uh after we sent out the certified mail at least half a dozen approached me and said finally um our home is the only Ranch on the Block and so everyone is excited for us to fit in uh and they're excited for us so here we are any questions from members of the board Mr chairman uh members of the board I'm Larry Quirk I'm the architect for the project if I can first go over to the screen and describe it from there so you can see what's take a microphone okay yes well he's got to have one sorry sir if you're going to test can I SAR sorry can I S you please okay raise your right hand you swear firm the contestant you're going to give this board this evenings the truth all the truth truth I do yeah thank you so this house this Ranch is at the corner of uh Mountain Avenue and Laurel Place uh it is the only one-story home on the Block it's probably the only one-story home on North Mountain too uh here's Mountain Avenue here's uh low place that very bold Line This is the existing uh one story and this is the existing two uh two two-car garage we building directly above the home and above the garage we're not encroaching any closer to Laurel or to Upper Mountain the only area that we are encroaching towards Laurel is to create a portico in the front which we're extending 5 feet from the front side of the house on the side of upper M Avenue we've actually eliminated one of the existing variances we've we're removing this uh screen porch so now the front yard setback is 26.5 where 25 is required on this particular piece of property because it's a corner and this is the narrow side this becomes the rear yard you would think that this was be re yard but this is and that's the second variance uh where 25 is required I'm sorry 29 ft is required and existing 5.90 but we're not encroaching any closer uh to the property line on that side on the site we're also going to widen the driveway it's very narrow right now we're going to add a patio in the rear and we removing a condensor unit here and placing two new condensor units there on the first floor go next sheet sorry this is slow motion okay keep going that's it that was it up keep going right there perfect uh almost perfect it's good enough here's the uh existing attached two car garage this is going to be the new uh front door entrance the Portico that I just mentioned is right here they're going to walk into a new foyer uh with a new stair obviously there's no stair right now that leads to second floor there is no second floor there's a new stair that goes up to the second floor to the right side is we're enlarging the existing living room but keeping Within in the same footprint here's a rear uh bedroom that's staying we're uh we're adding a new P room new kitchen new mudro uh and then in the back of course is these doors these patio doors lead to a new uh patio in the rear just go a second good okay so right here so again this is the new second floor there's four bedrooms one of which is a Master Suite there's a common bathroom uh there is an extension out the rear uh at the master bedroom it's only 1ot handle lever it's a total of 15 Square ft there is a bay window uh here it's also on the first floor a bay window here this one faces Upper Mountain this faces lower place and then of course here's the master bathroom and a walking closet then there's a stair leading from the second floor up to a new attic the new attic consists of a new playroom utilities and storage and now this is the new front for side and I know you must have the photographs from the planner that shows the existing front of the house existing side and rear so I think I believe you could see the big difference between this and that that's really um a a disaster in terms of architectural character uh I think I've improved it quite a bit again everything stays within the existing footprint except that candle in the rear and also those bay windows and the front Portico um I think it works very well with the character of both lower place and especially of uh upper man and what's very another uh positive aspect of this application there's no building coverage variance there's no impervious coverage variance there's no height variance just those two variances and they're pretty much much uh existing non-conforming okay Mr Church do have any questions um you mentioned before uh earlier that on the side of the house there's there's room for what I'm sorry you said on the on the left side of the house as you're looking at it the left side the house is the two-car garage okay what's there's nothing else except the two-car garage right now currently and we're building directly above that you're going to put something on top of yes that's the master closet and the master bathroom Okay uh that's it Mr Vier do you have any questions thank you Mr chairman yeah um following up on that question so you said that the the twocc car garage is the rear of the property it's considered the rear because it has two Frontage yes cor and that's again I I believe the board understands that when you apply for Rance there has to be a hardship and most Corner properties come with a hardship because there's two front yards yeah whereas interior Lots they don't they just have one front yard uh and the way this house is positioned that uh that strikes that rear yard variance yeah and and you're basically taking the existing footprint of the twocc garage and then building two floors correct yeah yes um and the other question I had was the proposed attic is that going to be habitable or just St yes it will be habitable yes yes just for a playroom uh mostly for storage yeah and uh utilities utilities yeah because there going be two HVAC units one in the attic and one in the basement I never spoke about the basement basement is just going to be recck room uh laundry room storage and uh utilities all right thank you and that that's the existing basement again the basement's not expanding the first floor is not expanding other than those bay windows and as I mentioned in the second floor it's pretty much identical to the footprint of the first floor Mr Griffith do you have any questions uh I don't have any questions I thought it was very reasonable proposal Mr Cruz do you have any questions nope no questions okay I just want to go over the setback a little um the what what will be the okay so the corner of the house will now on Upper Mountain you're going from 20.7 Ft to 26.5 ft is that correct that's correct yes okay and the and that's real ice or that screen porch but yes that we're eliminating um and the you're so your decrease the setback fa that's correct there and it's pretty much at that 25 26.5 if you will go if you going to go on Google Earth it's pretty much in line with the setback of the house adjacent to it on Upper Mountain Avenue so it's pretty much in line and then the only change in the front you're decreasing it by 5T but as only for the where it go the both the rest of the addition is keeping the 24.9 feet of the existing house and further when it's being built over the back then built over the garage yes okay are there any members of the public here who either have questions testimony statements anything you want to say concerning the application okay anything further any you want to say before we discuss and vote on the application I would just say it's a a major Improvement to uh place upper Mountain Road and that whole area okay we'll start discussion Mr Church yeah uh I think the the applic the application is um a good one I think it's a uh big Improvement to the property that's there now I can understand the need if you only have two bedrooms on the first floor to get a second floor in there and you're really not stepping out to make the building bigger than it is you're staying within the footprint of the building and uh just going up as far as I'm I can Reon um and the Portico in the front eliminates that screen porch all together yeah sort of yes okay um so uh I'm uh Mr chairman I'm in favor of the applications being presented Mr Vieira thank you Mr chairman I'm also in favor of the application I think this is a good Improvement um removing the screen porch is very thoughtful to remove that variance the existing non-conformance so I'm in favor Mr Griffith I'm in favor of the application I in favor of the application thanks I'm also in favor of the application I think um the bulk of the addition is following the ex existing setbacks of the house they're reducing the variants um that exists by eliminating the porch on Upper Mountain and it's only a slight increase to construct a ptical which we've allowed for other applications given the position of the house on the lot and uh the fact it's a corner lot there's really no way they can do a conforming addition that would have any meaning uh the current house does not fit into the neighborhood um and um you know all the other houses on the block are two or two and a half stories and that's what they're creating I think this will be an enhancement and certainly will not result in a substantial detriment to the public good or a substantial impairment to the Zone plan um would someone like to move approval or any other motion you want to make but any oh uh Mr chair chairman I'll move the approval of the applications presented second all in favor say I I any opposed any extensions okay thank you the next application is the continuation of the public hearing um for Montclair Sky BNC LLC for the property at 400 Orange Road is the applicant here and ready to go you're going to need fine because of the D1 that's this is yours good evening Mr chairman good evening Gregory Ving theah on behalf of behalf of the applicant sky as the chair has just said this is a continuation of our application 400 Orange Road um we are seeking uary final site plan and approval bar it's approval to construct seven units on the site uh Mr chairman tonight what uh I propose to do uh is present Lin our traffic engineer and Matthew Flynn our U planner and then wrap up at the next meeting with u our civil engineer we try to get through as much as we can tonight was clear that we weren't going to finish so uh even with the uh not ask for a vote tonight five members but we're ready to proceed with Mr okay do you swear affirm the testimony you're going to give in this proceeding before this board is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do your full name for the record k i the name of did you just make sure um just to press it once okay oh brighter green and um a principal of Klein traffic Consulting 156 Walker Road West Orange New Jersey okay and can you give the board the benefit of your um professional education your professional experience certainly a Bachelor of Science and civil engineering from ruter University I'm also a professional engineer in the state of New Jersey my license is current and good standing I'm also a nationally certified professional traffic operations engineer and that certification is also in good standing and you've uh appeared and testified in front of uh many boards within the state of New Jersey well over 100 boards throughout New Jersey uh Jersey City Newark um Verona uh I'm the board traffic engineer in Livingston Mr chairman I ask that you accept Mr K as a expert in traffic traffic and traffic engineering we accept him thank you Mr Klein you've um done a traffic study with regard to the proposed uh project at 400 Orange Road correct that's correct and you did submit your um the result your study methodology and the results of your study to the okay and what is the date of that study the date of the study is December 4th 2023 it's entitled traffic engineering evaluation 400 Orange Road Montclair Township and could you go over the uh the study with the board please certainly uh back when uh that report was was current we had eight dwelling units now we're at seven dwelling units so uh I believe we submitted an exhibit previously of my trip Generation table that was uh updated for seven dwelling units it's uh we used land use code from The Institute of Transportation Engineers land use code 220 multif family housing low rise and we use the average rate for a general Urban suburban area for seven units we're looking at approximately three trips during the am peak hour 1 hour between 7 and 9:00 a.m. uh one trip in two trips out and in the evening peak hour also three trips during that one peak hour between 4 and 6:00 pm. two trips in one trip out uh and then uh really when it generates less than 100 peak hour trips uh the dot uh also The Institute of Transportation Engineers says that that's not a significant increase in traffic so with three trips in and out during a peak hour we didn't do any kind of an act ual analysis of the driveway or the intersection of anything nearby because of the low traffic volumes uh we did look at the parking uh and I believe we meet the parking requirements again my report uh is the the outdated version but I believe uh we heard from the architect that we have enough parking on site to meet the requirements and again these are requirements from the residential site Improvement standards and those are now maximums uh that we have we exceed that maximum so I concluded from that report that uh seven units of lowrise multif family housing would have no significant impact on traffic on the surrounding streets Pleasant way Ward place or orange Road uh based on the low number of trips that would be generated during the AM and PM peak hour did you also um look at the circulation within the uh proposed within the proposed development yes and from the date of my report I've been on this project for close to a year now and I had input with the architect and the engineer when we laid out the site and we laid out where the driveway was and how we were going to circulate getting cars in and out of their parking spaces in their garages and the common spots that are are separate and I worked with them and and we came up with a plan that uh meets the uh intent of the residential site Improvement standards it provides enough parking uh for all the units whether it's in a garage or a driveway or a surface spot and then it provides that half a space per unit in this case it's for uh visitor parking spaces and again that's an rsis uh requirement okay and uh just to go back you had said that you did not do uh counts but your study and the results of that study were consistent with requirements um of the it that's correct yeah as I said before when we have less than 100 peak hour trips uh the dot considers that less than 100 is not a significant increase in traffic and The Institute of Transportation engine guidelines say that when it's less than 100 peak hour trips we don't need to do an analysis of anything and we're at three trips so that's much much lower than 100 no further questions Mr chair no questions Mr Mr viea yes thank you Mr chairman yes I do have a few questions um the previous proposal had the entrances on both sides and now the current proposal it's only on um one of the streets pleasant pleasant correct and um how how does that affect the the traffic basically because now yeah I believe our last the iteration before this one I thought it was an entrance on one side an exit on the other and this one we're going to have the entrance and exit on Pleasant that's opposite the uh Cemetery uh traffic will come out and turn out and probably go right out to Orange because that that's really kind of a dead end Pleasant and Ward so the traffic will come out make a left and then come out to Orange and either make a left or a right so concentrating three trips coming out in a peak hour I'm not concerned with that at all okay and so can can you explain again how how does the three trips came out how do how does that calculation The Institute of Transportation engineers and we're in the 11th edition of the trip generation that's a compilation of data collected by other Traffic Engineers at various locations and uh I can say that I verified a couple of them myself done uh a project in Livingston on Northfield Road where I did counts compared them to what the it generated was going to be went back after it was built and counted it they were within 5 or 10% I also did another one I think it was in Saddle River same type of thing I did a count figured out how many units were there did the math and said oh yeah we're within five or 10 per. so even if I'm off by 50% or 100% three trips or six trips coming out in a peak hour that's a trip every 10 minutes if I if it was if I was off by 100% right now I'm saying it's a trip every 20 minutes in a round okay thanks um the other the other comment I think I read uh in the engineers report regarding to traffic was that um I had the impression that there might not be enough parking for visitors within the property so um did you had did you look at it at that and consider you know the visitors parking on the Street and where will there no we've accounted for the visitor parking on site we have the it the residential site Improvement standards guidance is a half a space per unit so 7 time a half is three and a half we round it up to four so we have four spaces that are not assigned to a resident and then we have the residents each get their two spaces okay so there is or there is not there is yeah yeah there's four spaces that are unassigned for the residents that would be visitors yes correct on site on site that's not an arbitrary number correct it's a number from the rsis they give us that guidance they say that they want half a space so again you know three four of the units could have a visitor one unit could one unit could have uh two visitors you know but it works out to be on average about a half a space okay um I'm not sure if if you're the right um person to ask this question but there was a a letter from from the fire department about the Turning radios and comments about um that do do you did you look at that I haven't seen that letter from the fire department I don't recall yeah I I don't recall seeing that letter but I was that based on the current layout I correct it was okay I I haven't I haven't seen a copy of that letter oh okay we can we can review that um well I I mean I assume Mr Klein is the appropriate person to responded there's a there's a letter that says the I guess the new Loop basically should be able to provide enough space for turning radius of the biggest truck um in town and I'm sorry but when you said should be they're saying it should be they're saying it's sufficient or they want no I think is yeah correct yeah well the residential site Improvement sers also has guidance for culde saacs and dead ends if it's greater than 300 ft long then we need a culdesac to be able to turn around if it's less than that they can pull in and then they can back out and that's how that works on the shorter ones so I'm I again I haven't read the comments I'm not sure exactly how they're asking Mr via I thought and I'm not testifying of course I thought that there was um some correspondence from the fire department or some speculation if it's speculation obviously it's only worth speculation that the any fire would be fought from the street and not from the interior does anybody else recall that that was a discussion I don't think so I think I saw comment that the fire troop should be able to make that Loop okay all right but again we have not uh you have we'll make sure that that's shared okay thank you or it was shared yeah Mr chairman Mr Church uh that brings to mind for me uh the collection of garbage the garbage trucks are pretty big and do they have the ability to go in to these units and pick up the garbage and get out or do they have to go in and then back out Mr Church there was testimony last uh month um I don't believe you were here that talked about the garbage collection would be um um consistent with a single family homeowners garbage collection right that the the cans would be brought out to the street back to theage now going out to the street means that they would be be on uh Orange Road or one of the or Pleasant or or Pleasant yeah okay correct all right so there'd be no need for uh anything bigger than a fire you same size as a fire TR to go in there we we don't contemplate you don't contemplate disposal correct um okay the the other comment I had was um I think was there was a comment in the engineers report that um with the new proposal with the I guess oneway Loop so you the entrance is a two-way entrance the loop is a oneway loop correct and I believe so yeah cuz there's a little island in the middle yeah so going around the loop how do you prevent people from coming into the two-way street directly into the you know I mean there'll be site dis will be there so when somebody comes in again three trips two two in one out one in two out we're not talking about a lot of traffic at the same time if this was 80 units maybe I'd be concerned with but again it would be a bigger layout so for seven units a vehicle coming in a vehicle coming out if they went the quote unquote wrong way on that loop I I don't think that would be a problem it may be better to go the right way to make the loop to be able to make the turn into their garage so that people will figure out the best way in sure thank you sure Mr Griffith so uh I trust uh your experience and your expertise on the numbers just you know and I regret that that every morning I get up and go to work and every morning my wife gets up and goes and take my son out so that's two trips already and we'd only live in one house so I think there's more there but I appreciate your comment that even if everybody got in their car and went out to work during rush hours not going to have an impact on the traffic in a significant way correct so understood but it is sort of baffling that only two cars would leave there just saying in in the one hour somebody may leave before 7 o'clock somebody may you know it's spread out over more I understand you got to understand why some people may shake their heads okay okay fair enough sure um I would look at the planning of the driveway and as the driveway leaves the street and comes to the back where there's a turn to the right and then there's a turnaround so the turn to the right next the driveway width down so there's no longer two lanes it's it's neck down and I don't understand why it's necked down one comment I think to fit that landscape Island in there sorry to fit the landscaped Island in that's in the middle you're not understanding my point yeah I'm not if I turn off the street and I drive up the driveway it then turns to the side the property line comes and jogs right when it turns to the side the driveway's width is reduced significantly it nexts down there yes and it I don't understand why it nexts down that's one well the engineer can testify to that but it had to do with impervious coverage and reducing the amount of pavement and because it would only need because the intention is that it would be one way if you're interested in that then there's a triangle on the side the property line comes and turns at 90° nobody's driving straight up there that triangle you have paved you should make that landscape I could talk to the engineer about that we don't have engineering tonight so we would I understand no we would have the opportunity to make that to to honor that suggestion I make this you know you did the traffic okay he's he that's a driveway so I'm making the point I think that it's good for the As far as the impervious Paving though I don't really buy that I mean you're not complying with the impervious pavement requirements anyway so I don't understand why you neck the driveway down okay we'll we'll look at that design if you look at the plan there you could change the curve of the paving on the inside and accommodate the WID I think that the people that own the house would be happier okay um as far as the other my other comment is you said that you did the traffic study on access to the parking garages the garages and the houses in the town houses the access to it meaning so well cut to the chase townhouse 5 in the corner has 15 ft between the face of the garage door and the adjacent building I do not understand how you pull two cars into that garage I don't think there's enough space unless you're driving I don't know many and Fiat 500s that's engine Eng that um again Mr Griffith that would be the engineer to I mean to testify as to the the the distance Mr f is unfortunately it's traffic numbers with traffic okay all right right but site layout is a different person you understand why I right okay um those are my questions thank you okay thank you Mr Cruz um I just had one question uh in terms of the site distance when you're leaving the driveway uh in terms of if there's any obstructions like with the trees uh is that a question that you would answer or that be something the engineer answers that would also be the engineer but I I can tell him what the numbers would be it's 240 ft for a 25 mph road so coming out of our driveway you got to be able to see I guess to the West unpleasant at least 240 fet and that's something that your board engineer if it were an issue would point out with uh with our engineer as well so we'll we'll double check his uh um his report which we just received um today being Wednesday we received his report I think on H Friday so uh we'll be able to take a look at that to make sure it's not the case very good thank you okay um I I I want to follow up on the questions Mr Griffith was asking in terms of so Mr Clin you did not look at all about the ability to access the various parking spaces from the driveway correct okay and I take it Mr masero that your engineer will be able to address the questions I have concerning that that would be uh the uh intention yes Mr chairman okay and then to follow up the other question Mr grith asked the you know as when you enter the driveway it's 19 ft wide it then there's the point it Narrows down to 17 ft before you get to the one way and I and I think that's where what Mr Griffith was trying to address is to why because that's at that point it's still two-way right um and if if that is necessary and if I assume that's also a question for the engineer um the other question that the the plans don't clearly show the driveway being one way once you get into the property going around the island it would appear it's intended to the circulation would be counterclockwise is that correct I believe so cter counterclockwise um I guess you know from some of the spaces the you know the visitor spaces the obvious way to access those and the easiest way to access those is to go straight in not make the right go around the island and then make what would be a sharper turn into them versus pulling straight in do you envision that that that in reality is what people is going to do is there going to be signage indicating One Way um I I'm trying to you know I I think the reality is people are going to drive in SE spaces you know if their visitors see spaces in front of them and pull straight into them U Mr chairman based on Mr Griffith's question and your followup question um it's clear that I should speak to our engineer to provide for signage um either traditional signs or um in addition um paint painting on the ashalt Arrow you know arrows directional arrows um in that regard and probably painting the as will be actually more visible because it's there's in a clear places to put signage that would end up confusing people so we will uh we'll add um I'll suggest our engineer we add that to the plan so that the one way is clearly depicted okay then my um last question is did you look at all at the site distances on Orange Road for you know particularly for cars making the leftand turn onto Orange Ro I mean you know Pleasant way is not a well traveled Street and there aren't the issues but Orange Road is a heavily traveled Road as to whether cars coming out going and wanting to drive into Montclair um whether there's good sight visibility for them to um see down the road and safely make the left yeah because we're on the outside of the curve on our side of pleasant so when you come to Pleasant the curve is in your favor the other side of pleasant way it's a little more difficult to see to the left if you're coming I guess westbound unpleasant way eastbound unpleasant way the site distance is is fairly good but we're not changing that okay but you're I'm talking about cars coming down Pleasant way and wanting to get on Orange Road right and you know you're you know I'm not going to disagree that you're not adding a lot of traffic but you know you're you're adding more traffic coming out um Pleasant way onto Orange Road than exists now and I just if you looked at what the site distances are when you come out and particularly making the left hand turn how well can you see cars coming Northbound on Orange Road like you said we're only adding you know a handful of vehicle trips during any one of the peak hours and if it's a problem today then that's something that should be remedied today regardless of what goes on this site if there's an issue with site distance to make a left out a pleasant way okay let's let's so you did not look at that as the cor answer to myct yes I said that at the beginning yes um okay so we're now opening it up to questions from the public and let me just go through since we have a lot new audience members because we're out of the summer doldrums and um the this is only a time to ask questions related to Traffic on what this witness testified when the other Witnesses testify you'll have an opportunity to ask questions of them then when the applicant finishes um their testimony you will have full opportunity to give whatever testimony comments present any exhibits do whatever you want and Mr masero will have an opportunity to question you in the same way you have an opportunity uh to question his Witnesses so are there any members of the public who have questions for Mr Klein Mr chairman just some housekeeping um I believe that there is Council present on behalf of um others someone other than the applicant um I would just want to make sure that anyone testifying is not repres anyone asking questions is not represented by Council what's that got to okay uh by by law if if a person is represented by an attorney they can only be called as a witness or ask questions through their attorney it's you've hired someone to be your spokesman in the same way the applicant cannot come up on his own he can only come up if Mr masero calls him thank you do I need to introduce myself or just you need to your name Commissioners my name is Amina Toler I'm the fourth ward counselor here in Mount Clair New Jersey um so I have a question regarding the traffic study you said that you did a traffic study for Pleasant a pleasant way and Ward did you do any studies to the left or right of Orange Road and if so what were the results my traffic study is really just a traffic evaluation so I looked at how many trips would be generated by the now seven units that are proposed it generates such a low number of trips a handful of trips that we don't analyze the driveway we don't analyze any external intersections why not I mean I'm asking about Orange Road because the cars would have to come off Orange Road is a heavily traveled Road day and night Ubers residents deliveries pedestrians bikers so you're saying your traffic study didn't have any studying on Orange Road to the left or the right if coming off of pleasant or Ward that's correct because the number of trips that are generated by these seven units that we're proposing is so small that the level of service would not change at the intersection of pleasant and orange uh at any of the peak hours okay it would change that's you're talking about seven families coming in perhaps the level of service which is based on an analysis of the volume the geometry of the intersection Pleasant way is a stop controlled intersection if you added three or four vehicles coming out even if they were all making a left the level of service would not change and that's my professional opinion well I agree with you know you can have your professional opinion but as a resident who lives here that's a lot of traffic and it does matter so if you please ensure that your study includes Orange Road to the left and the right that would be appreciate it thank you thank [Applause] you I myself yes I'm a oh I'm Kimberly W Malloy from war place I live on the top um my concern is we have a bus that comes down there to pick up kids on the bottom of pleasant and they pick up and they drop off if you have how many units did you say seven if you have seven units let's say they have two kids a piece think about it they have buses that come down there they have kids that's getting off the bus you got New Jersey Transit you got garbage trucks plus did you ever think of the emergency vehicles if somebody gets sick they got to come in and out you didn't think about that either did you okay so okay let him answer the question did you think about that when we analyze uh a development we look at the peak hours so we look at 1 hour between 7 and 9 and that's the the trip generation number I came up with and we look at 1 hour between 4 and 600 p.m. when something like this development generates such a low number of peak hour T trips it's not going to have a substantial or any kind of an impact on the operation of the driveway in Pleasant way or Pleasant way in Orange Road uh when there are emergency vehicles they have their lights and sirens on when the garbage truck comes twice a week the garbage truck comes twice a week uh when let me correct you real quick they come three times a week garbage truck yes we have recycle and we have garbage three we have garbage on Tuesdays Thursdays is recycle and Friday is garbage but we're not changing that that's staying the same okay but we're adding three trips during one hour you can't do that I can't do that okay you can't you can't there's no way that you can do that because you can't tell the garbage trucks oh you can only come up here twice you can't do that no no no that's not what I said that's the garbage trucks are going to continue to collect the way they collect the school buses will continue to travel the way they travel the New Jersey Transit buses will continue to travel the way they travel emergency vehicles will access the neighborhood the way they have been all we're doing is adding seven residential units they're going to generate at the highest peak hour three trips to one in two out two in one out during one hour between 7 and n and 1 hour between 4 and what you're saying is you're dictating on what time people gets off and what time people not what I said that's what it sound like to me how could you tell let let him finish answering okay when we do traffic studies we do uh we we look at trip generation data that's provided to us by The Institute of Transportation engineers and we're in the 11th Edition it's a compilation of people going out and doing traffic counts at other developments similar to this whether it's got 50 units 100 units five units and then we use those that data to predict what kind of traffic is going to be generated by these seven units and based on my experience based on the it data we're looking at less than a handful of trips coming in and out during one of those hours between it could be 7:30 to 8:30 it could be 7:15 to 8:15 the other hours the other times yeah there may be a vehicle or two coming in or coming out but that's what's that's what's going to happen during the the am peak hour and the PM peak hour it's not going to work I'm going tell you that right now it's not work thank you it's not going to [Music] work hello my name is Shantel Bolivar I live 17 W place um my question um I guess maybe it's more the engineer because it's about the parking and everything it seems like it's very intricate to find a way to have the car circulated would it be easier if it was four units instead of seven units would it be easier to figure it out parking and traffic if it was four four instead of seven that's my question this is an application for seven units yeah but my question we didn't study four units okay because we would like less units thank you hello my name is name is Leonor rush I'm at 15 Ward place um Mr Klein my question is does the the data that you rely on that you make your your um uh that your report speaks to does it take into account the changing um workstyle that people have since the pandemic a lot of people work from home now and they may have additional trips that the data may not see actually it' be the opposite because during covid people stayed home so there would be less trips coming out to go to an office they would stay home so these are probably a little bit conservative these numbers so my point is is that I'm relying on my my own experience I work from home I generally don't have to go into the City and so my trips are not as F three trip so today as an example I've literally had like four or five round trips how many of those trips were between 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. I had two okay I had two so my point is is that the lifestyle of Monclair in general has changed since the pandemic I understand during the pandemic there were less trips now after the pandemic the lifestyle has changed and people are moving in and out they're doing things they're going to doctor's appointments they're meeting people for lunch they're going for a shopping trip I don't think this data seems to take that into account I know that's not data that you generated right but but this again we're looking at the peak hour so if I were to look at the the daily trips yeah it would probably be somewhere in the range of 10 trips per unit so we're talking about 70 over a 24-hour period okay and and that takes into account lunchtime trips and shopping trips and things outside of the 7 to9 and four to six peak hours so the point is is that the three trip estimate estimate estimation may not be completely accurate it's accurate for the hours that we're studying the peak hour in the morning and the peak hour in the pm. lunch Bas upon the data that you're relying on I understand that's how Traffic Engineers do traffic studies I I understand I also understand that data is it it is is not necess not necessarily taking in all the considerations that it it needs to it is because we're looking at one peak hour MERS 7 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. if this is you all get your chance and when the applicant's done you'll get to say why you think any of their Witnesses are are wrong but this is this Rush is asking questions Mr Klein is responding we go a lot quicker if we don't have editorial comments as we're going along from the audience you were I think you were still trying to give an exp again when we when we do our trip generation calculations we look at the the peak hours uh and like I said before the the daily numbers for 7 units might be closer to 70 but that's spread out over 24 hours and that accounts for shopping trips at 10:00 a.m. and lunch at 11:30 and coming back from school at 3:30 those are off peak hours because the traffic on Orange Road isn't as heavy as it is between 7 and n and four- six but again I didn't do an analysis because the numbers are so low you're saying that the the traffic on Orange Road is not as heavy when it's heaviest between 7:00 to 9 in the morning and 4 to 600 in the evening there may be another hour in there when schools are letting out but but I didn't look at I didn't analyze the intersection I just calculated the number of trips and when I get a number that low I don't go out and do an analysis of any anything because it's so low even if I was off by like I said before 100% then it would be six trips coming in or out during a peak hour so I understand that it's what's coming in and out of the seven unit application correct correct but I think to miss to Point earlier because Orange Road is I mean it's it's literally the evacuation route for in case of an emergency so um I I think my my question would be is that we do need to focus on the amount of traffic that goes down back and forth on Orange Road and how that impacts everyone coming in and out of that unit not and not to mention the already pre-existing residents of that immediate area right and because this development generates such a low number I don't have to analyze that intersection because it's such a low number and if we looked at let's say the percentage of traffic that this is generating in the peak hour versus what's on Orange Road were a very small percentage if a percent at all so the traffic volumes can vary by 5 to 10% from day to day during the peak hour understood um and obviously this is this is your area of expertise I understand that I also have a just feel that it the data that is being relied upon does not look at the amount or doesn't seem to include the life changes that have occurred within the past four or five years it doesn't seem to to take that into account that's all I'm saying but again if we're looking at seven units and if it generates three trips according to it and if I'm off by if has to be double then we're talking about six trips in one hour but you see I'm not necessarily addressing what you're off by I'm actually questioning the underlying data that you're relying on from from from it right and that's what I'm saying if if you're saying that maybe I'm off by a certain percentage like I said if I doubled the number it would be six trips a trip every 10 minutes on average may I ask a question Mr Mr coin does every traffic does every tra traffic expert in the state of New Jersey on the everyone needs to be quiet there are several members of the board who need to listen to the tape they will not be able to understand a word that is said if there's a lot of vocalization from the audience and that will be prejudicial to everybody Mr Klein does every traffic expert in the state of New Jersey rely on the it of which you are relying every traffic expert in the country uses the it trip generation 11th Edition right now and are you familiar with any traffic expert in the country that has ever questioned the it um numbers like I said before I've done actual counts at developments after the study's been done after it's been developed to just verify these numbers and in two instances I can recall right now in Livingston and the other one I think was Saddle River uh or Saddle Brook uh the counts were within 5 or 10% so like I said if I'm off by 10% it's a trip okay thank but you asked but wasn't your specific question wasn't your specific question was was he aware of any other engineer who had questions about it data that that I think I think that was my question likew any engineer that doesn't use the it no no no no that wasn't what you said I mean I think I think we so that no that that wasn't your question you can ask him whatever question you asked him the question and you're ask him whatever question you wish if you don't think he answered the question that's you know unfortunate but you were allowed to ask him any question you wish what you asked him okay was Mr chairman I won't take this I won't take it either my turn I won't take it either my turn I'm going to ask a question first then you have to ask a question of the witness what year it did you rely on what what year it 11th Edition the current edition what year uh 2020 2021 I believe 20 2021 data compiled up through there I believe yeah so it has not been updated since post pandemic again we're talking about three trips it's a it would be much easier if you responded directly to the questions it doesn't yeah it doesn't include Co correct okay when people stayed home you want to ask a question of the witness not of the attorney feel free so my question or rather the question that I heard earlier from the attorney directed to you was had you were you aware of any other Engineers who may have questioned the it data we wouldn't question it we would supplement it with additional data uh that's how the the data is compiled by Traffic Engineers doing traffic accounts sending it into the it they compile it in this book so I I don't know if it's the word no we don't uh what's you're not aware challenging no no I'm not aware okay that that was it thank you thank you Mr chairman for the record according to um it resources uh which is a community a community of transport let me the question of the witness was what version of it did he rely on not what version is out there well he said the he said the 11 I I didn't remember the year but the 11th the current edition 11th he said the 11th more than once and the 11th was the 11th was printed in September of 2021 okay that's and I was right so effectively the data would have been not after covid is that correct corre Mr KCT correct okay any other members of the audience who have questions for this witness again just questions not an opportunity Place uh first question where is the engineer why is he not here to answer these questions can anybody tell us that this was scheduled we didn't have an August meeting um and I'd like to know where is the engineer Mr chairman as I stated at the beginning of the meeting um we expect to have the engineer here next meeting to finish um it was there was only five board members who were able to appear this evening um as the board knows we need um five so you assumed it wasn't worth it for him to show up today but we showed up last the last meeting and no one was here I just would like to know so you told the engineer not to come tonight because all the board members would not be here all these people have come here tonight to try to express what we feel and we are not statistics our children have to catch the bus they're running to the bus to cross the street on Orange Road to go not into East Orange to go into Montclair to the schools did you take that into consideration I see kids running there's no crosswalk and the kids have to cross the street to catch the bus on Orange Road so then what happens if I'm so sorry go ahead answer that that's an existing condition and and we're not exacerbating that condition if there needs to be I'm sorry let them finish go ahead I'm sorry my bad you're good are you finished if you I'm sorry if there needs to be a crosswalk there because of the school bus you can petition the township and the engineer for the township would look at that and see if that that's warranted but you are the problem that's bringing the problem to the neighborhood with extra cars so then what happens when they can't get out of pleasant they come and whip around Ward to come and make the turn to left to go left on Ward I I can't imagine somebody so close to the intersection of pleasant and orange and not being able to make a left turn again two or three cars in an hour trying to make that left turn wanting to go all the way around to come out to Ward to make the left turn all the way around a horseshoe yeah I know but I'm saying distance-wise rather than just wait another 30 seconds and then make the left when there's a gap in traffic to drive all the way around the neighborhood to come out pleasant when they're going to hit the same amount of traffic I have tried to get out of uh wpl on onto Orange Road just to get out and sometimes it's really trying so you go around to to Pleasant and come out orange of course not so of course you just asked me if our guys would if the traffic from this development would do the opposite I just know that during funerals they do it because they don't even know that it doesn't go around but your people would definitely do it and how are you how are you thinking if you've got two parents who've got two teenagers and they have cars that's four cars so did you think well some of these people who move into this complex may have teenage children and you got three bedrooms there could be people that live there that are empty nesters and are retired and they don't also be all airbnbs for what we know I don't know about that which would also present a new problem what if because they're condos and there's no regulations on condos there's no regulations on multif family already hardly in in Monclair if they are aabn BS and we've got lots of transients coming in what happens when there's all kinds of different people coming in and out the applicant will stipulate that the condominium documents will um prevent any shortterm leases generally most Condominiums I'm familiar with um have six-month um uh minimum leasing so there will be no airbnbs and there would be there something that that we've talked to the developer about already and and uh that that would not be an issue so um we can cross that one off the list condos are very different from co-ops co-ops do not allow anybody else to stay in the unit we on a CO a co-op in yers no one can stay in that Co-op except and there are deeded parking spots that go with that space what will you do if somebody violates that how are you going how are you going to enforce that and there's four or five cars Mr chairman it would be like any other condominium regulation just like there would be a Prohibition against hanging signs out the window just like there' be a Prohibition against parking on the median um it will be enforced just like any condominium in the state of New Jersey thank you any members any other members of the public who have questions for this witness she's not suppos my name is Thomas White I do a 77 Pleasant way and where I live it is all a Haru and we have kids playing all the way around the corner all the time lots of kids and they've been making the rway just to come out one way to Pleasant Way kids always playing there and coming out he say it is a blind intercession because the cemeter is there and a fence there on the right hand side a blind intercession on the right hand side take it out it's bad and and you making tra come on one side of the place that's no good you have a question any other members of the audience with questions for this witness I do have a question again um did did your data take in consideration of the funerals that come through there we have multiple funerals that come through Orange Road that will block up orange road block up Pleasant and block up Ward how do do you how can you say that there's not going to be a lot of traffic how could you say that the people that live there is going to be coming out at the times that you said between seven and nine and five and whatever four and six so how is it that you're going to dictate on their work schedule for them to leave at those particular times can I jump in before you get too many questions in before I lose my train of thought so I'm not telling anybody that they have to leave or come to this site any particular hour what I'm saying is based on the data that we have from The Institute of Transportation Engineers that a 7unit multif family development lowrise development with seven units will generate approximately three trips during the highest peak hour you're shaking your head but let me finish and say it's 7:30 to 8:30 yes before 7:30 there may be a car or two that come out somebody that's got to go early to work there may be one that comes out at 10: a.m. because they have to go to a doctor's appointment they're all from work that day I'm not saying that that only traffic will come in and out during that hour I'm saying that the highest which is what Traffic Engineers study is 1 hour between 7 and 9 and 1 hour between 4 and 6 and that's what we expect hours on either side of that I would expect about the same if not less middle of the day again less so I'm not dictating that anybody has to leave or come and go at any particular hour I'm just saying what I predict will be the number of trips coming in 1 hour between 7 and 9 and 1 hour between 4 and 6 and as far as a funeral goes we're not adding to the funeral traffic we're just adding a trip sometime between 7 and 9 that's going to come out if the funeral is going by they'll have to wait for the funeral to go by if a fire truck is going by they're going to have to wait for the firet truck to go by an ambulance a school bus we're we're just adding three or four trips in or out during one hour and a couple of trips on either side of that hour so can I ask you this question how is it that you know what time when these people move into these condos um how are you going to know their timing like how could you let me start over I got it I got so let me start over so when we do traffic studies with traffic counts we study the hours of 7 to n so if this was a 100 units and it was or more than 100 unit have to be over 200 units to generate more than 100 peak hour trips if it was 200 units I would go out at the intersection of pleasant and orange and I would count my wife would count that intersection I'd go down to Ward and count that intersection and we'd count between seven and N we summarize the date every 15 minutes then we find the four highest 15minute periods in in that in in an hour and say it's 7:15 to 8:15 then we would analyze that without the development then we would analyze it with the development in this case to analyze it with the addition of three trips if I counted it on Tuesday and went back on Wednesday the amount of traffic on Orange Road is going to vary by more trips than is generated by this development so there's not any reason to analyze this from a traffic engineering point of view it's a qualitative analysis that I just told you that it's going to generate far far less than 100 peak hour trips which even the 100 peak hour trips may not have an impact can I say one thing let let she's not even done I say one thing that is a school bus stop school's opening be swarming there okay you have to ask him a question okay I'm a piggy back off of Mr White cuz I live around the corner from him he's been there for ages he has houses over there as well and my daughter just graduated from M high school college student now she has a car my son has a car I have a car my husband has a car you have students that go to college that go to high school they get their driver's license and they get cars their parents want to buy them a car okay fine well and good where's their car going to go not only that but you got to think as well that like I said before it's heavy traffic over there with the cemetery with New Jersey Transit with the school buses the garbage trucks the amulance the delivery you have all this stuff that comes in and out of War please and I'm at the top and I see this we don't even have room enough when FedEx ups and Amazon cuz Amazon is crazy on our block you have to ask a question so okay I'm getting there I'm getting there so my thing is is how is all of your data quote unquote that you claim is considered accurate it's not to us that live in that area we can't tell that it's accurate so how do you figure that it's going to be accurate once this development goes up if it goes up I can only rely on uh 30 38 39 years of experience doing traffic studies going out and doing check counts at locations where I've done a study and predicted what the trips would be and confirmed that I'm within 5 or 10% and like I said before if I'm off by 100% instead of three trips we're talking about six trips we're not talking about 100 plus trips generated by these seven units in one hour did you do it during school time I didn't do anything I did my traffic analysis is yeah just I didn't do any counts on the road I didn't count Orange Road I didn't count Pleasant I didn't count Ward I did the trip generation first and I said oh it's only generating three or four trips I don't need to go out and do counts and do an analysis okay I get that but what I'm asking the question that I want to ask you is first of all let me make this you need to be in sight forget about your data forget about your computer all of that you have to see for S it's crazy on Pleasant and Ward it's crazy it's it's you have to come during school hours if you go you you'll get an opportunity to say all of this after they're done he has been very clear he has not looked at traffic on Orange Road Ward place or Pleasant way he all he did was look at I te looked at the trip generation and when you will have every opportunity to comment on why you think that's a problem but that's his testimony and the question's been asked a lot of times and he's been clear he did not go out there and look at traffic any other members with questions for this Witness okay want to call your next uh Jan 54 play so basically your testimony is basically worthless okay is that a question no my testimony is not worthless my testimony what good is it if it has nothing if we're nothing but data and statistics your testimony when you don't know the neighborhood you've not been to the neighborhood you know nothing about the neighborhood you have you haven't been to it because it's less than so many units I've been to the site I've been to the neighborhood there's nobody there right now and I use it trip generation numbers to predict how many trips will be generated by the seven units you're right there is nobody there I'm sorry sir I resent highly when you refer to us as data statistic I'm not referring to you as data I'm referring to the to the site the site is not even done the site is not developed I've been to the neighborhood I should have said okay I'm sorry and how much time did you spend in the neighborhood were you there between the hours of seven and N 5 days a week I've driven down Orange Road on on an occasion yes yes okay you drove down Orange Road have you been there during school hours but no but again during the number of trips is going to be generated by this if you if you didn't know this was built and they generated their trips and you were let's say down the road where you couldn't see and you counted the traffic on Orange Road either end of Orange Road you wouldn't be able to tell that that development was there because the amount of traffic that's generated by it and the variation between the number of trips on Orange Road from Tuesday to Wednesday to a week in July and a week in September and a week in April they're they're going to vary by more than the amount of trips that's generated by this where do you live may I ask West Orange okay but you don't live on the south end correct I doubt there's i' I I'm not actually I'm a volunteer on my planning board so I don't do any work work in my town but yeah I I don't live in every town that I work in that's correct okay it's just a tad frustrating for us all right any other members of the public with questions for this witness C clear I just need a clarification please studies were done on December 23rd and 24th no I I didn't study the traffic I did a traffic engineering I did a traffic engineering evaluation I generated the trips based on the Institute of Transportation Engineers trip generation 11th Edition the current edition and when I look at the number of trips that are going to be generated during the peak hours for Seven units it's such a low number that I don't study the the traffic on the road I just say that it's going to generate less than five trips in a peak hour and it's not going to have a significant impact on traffic based on that based on my experience if I if it generated 50 trips it probably would it may have but it's generating a handful of trips during one peak hour can you clarify please you mentioned the date December 24th no December 4th is just the date of my report that's all that is just the date of my report correct so but you said that you and your wife stand and you do observations on other on other projects that are that generate greater than 100 observation of the neighborhood correct because it generates such a low number of trips that's not warranted we don't need to do a traffic study for seven units that are generating three I'm here to present that in my opinion seven units will generate such a low number that it won't be realized in a change in level of service or an increase in average delay at the intersections I I just want to mention that my previous experience with the traffic study that was presented in this room about a year and a half ago the traffic study was done in such an incredibly low traffic calendar date it was in between school break and the beginning of January and I think that when things are observed if they should warrant being observed you have to consider when they're being observed thank you sorry could you state your name yes Bonnie Abrams Bogel James dargon 391 orange Ro I would like to invite you to come to my house I'm facing W place and I have a view a pleasant way from my porch you'll be able to see the traffic that goes in and out of that street it's amazing all day long and uh I sit there and I told my wife it's just a matter of time we're going to have a tragic accident because there's a bus that turns on W place and stop on the corner dis this I'm I'm telling what what going to add more to it question it's going to add more children but if you got if you got children but the bus is stopping there today so it'll just stop and pick up an extra child or two no I'm it's not we're not changing the bus routes I'm not talking about picking of extra child I'm talking about extra children that will be there extra children that will come from the eight units or seven units right that will come just like the kids that live on Ward and live on on to which going to be another problem it's already a problem what's that problem already a problem what's the problem well that that's what I'm saying that's an existing condition that you need to let the township engineer know about but but but you you you did the study of the traffic that going in and out you said didn't study no no no I didn't study traffic because it generates such a low number of trips I didn't study the traffic we're talking about two or three trips in or out in an hour it's it's more than that sir it's much more than that it's much more than that anyone anyone that want to come and view I'm 391 orange Roy open any other members of the public who have questions or this witness okay want to call your next witness yes Mr chairman call Matthew Flynn professional planner if you can stand up and be do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're going to give before this board is a truth the whole truth is nothing but the truth yeah I do state your uh full name and spell it for the record please Matthew Flynn f l YNN business address is 101 Gibralter Drive Morris Plains New Jersey I'm employed by John MCD Associates LLC Mr Flynn you are a professional planer licensed by the state of New Jersey is that correct I am can you give the board please the benefit of your um educational background and your professional credentials sure my education comes from Ruckers University I have my master's degree in planning and public policy I have my professional planner license in the state of New Jersey as well as my national lure um which is the aicp license I've testified before several over 100 boards across the state um I believe this is my first time to have the pleasure to be here though and uh your license is current in the state of New Jersey yes have you ever been denied uh the opportunity to testify as an expert in the state of New Jersey I have not Mr chairman I would ask that Mr Flynn be accepted as a uh professional planner we accept them even as the same speech mannerisms as Mr mcdunn I thought it was just me Mr chairman you got to learn somewhere um Mr Flynn you have had the opportunity to review the application to review um the township of M we can't hear mic Mr Flynn you've had the opportunity to um review the ation the township of Monclair master plan and the township of Monclair zoning ordinance is that correct yes okay can you give uh the board please the benefit of uh what you have learned with regard to this application um and how it uh in your opinion um would be beneficial to the township sure uh so I do have an exhibit I'd like to pass out I'm not sure what we're up to at this point uh this is n nine okay oh 10 A1 Okay a810 so exhib IIT A10 um consists of three photos taken by my office on May 1st 2024 what we did was we flew a drone up in the air and we basically took a took photographs of the of the site as well as the surrounding neighborhood if I may approach Mr I'm sorry I said three pages it's actually four pages can we see on are we going to see it while that's being distributed just for the record it's entitled planning exhibits so this is entitled planning exhibits for Montclair Sky BNC LLC 400 Orange Road Township of Montclair um basically I'll let the board and just kind of flip through this on their own but essentially just to walk through quickly uh sheet one just shows uh the view of the property looking West Orange Road is is uh left to right on the page here um and then we can see the two side roads that go um East West to the two sides um obviously ly what we have today is a vacant Garden Center so we have an existing non-conforming commercial use in a residential Zone obviously what we've heard at this point is that we are replacing that with a residential use which we think is more in line with the intent of the Zone again replacing commercial with residential um sheet two just shows a view of the property looking South we get a view of the substantial underutilization of the property as it currently sits we see substantial pavement um overall I would say just a certainly an eyes sore in the context of this of this neighborhood just flipping through more uh sheet three is now looking East so now we can see orange Road sort of beyond the property um I'm just going to keep going here and then finally sheet four is just an aerial view looking straight down really the point that I want to get across on sheet 4 is the substantial size of the property we're looking at a lot that's over 23,000 Square ft in in area um there is no lot area requirement in the zone but I am going to pass around a second exhibit shortly that gives uh the board some perspective as to the other lot sizes in the area I would say there is a great variety but I would say that the vast majority of properties in the area are substantially smaller than what we than what we have um on the subject site by way of background again we do have Frontage on Orange Road Pleasant way and Ward place we're in the r160 one family residential Zone existing use a vacant retail Garden Center proposed use of course seven new tow houses which is a reduction from the eight that was originally proposed in fact it's also a reduction from what was originally approved for this property um eight units were approved in 2007 uh and now of course we are down to seven units um importantly and I'll get to why I think this is an important fact uh briefly each of those seven units has three bedrooms um really the reason that I find that important is that if this lot were subdivided into several single family uh single family homes you could conceivably have houses that have uh six seven bedrooms which is not abnormal in terms of the context of the of the neighborhood I do have access to property record cards which do lay out number of bedrooms in the area again the reason I say that is kind of just echoing the the conversation that we had while the traffic engineer was up here if you did have a single family dwelling with substantially more bedrooms you could conceivably have more people with cars larger families and the like here we're looking at substantially smaller scale uh living which would I would say conceivably have less uh car ownership than than if we were looking at single family so with that I think I'll pass exhibit what is it A1 now which is a single page prepared by my office uh on July 16th 2024 and what exhibit a11 is is a simple uh it shows a couple things really first uh the properties that are shown in yellow are the properties in our Zone the one property that's shown in Blue uh which is the canterberry park that's a that's a separate Zone but really the point here is that I have outlined all of the either I've outlined basically the non- single family properties in the area non-detached housing style um developments here obviously I've outlined our property 400 Orange Road and if we look North right across Ward place there is an apartment development uh two doors down from that there is another apartment development if we continue down further we see a substantially large property that is also apartments and then just beyond that we see an office development um also obviously we do have the cemetery across Pleasant way and caddy corner to our property we do have some non-residential uses here I'm showing the beauty salon and then a commercial establishment at 405 Orange Road so just to put that all on the record really the point there is that orange road is characterized by non-s single family development especially on our side of the street if you were to travel um from the south to the north I'll call it up Orange Road you would be passing uh several non- single family developments so the reason I bring that up is because we are seeking a use variance this evening uh the board is required to find U or the board is required to look at whether the property is suitable for the proposed use so the reason that we have to do this for a use variance is I think obvious because the use is not permitted in the zone so we need to look at the the property itself and assess whether that use is appropriate for this property like I said the board did find in 2017 that eight tow houses is more consistent with the master plan than the existing Garden Center will it will greatly enhance the residential character of the neighborhood the board also found that the lot is larger than the majority of other Lots in the area um which I think we can see on exhibit a11 um so single family may not be the most desirable option considering that um that I pulled from the resolution from the 2007 approval in regards to the site suitability findings however I do have several other findings in regard to site suitability that I'd like to to bring up to the board um what we can see on exhibit a11 is that we are across the street from rosale Cemetery so there is I would say built-in light air open space um obviously there is no immediate neighbor in that direction um which mitigates any potential impact that this property will have on its neighbors um similarly with three frontages I would say there is adequate light air and open space in all directions the reason I say that is because the width of the street itself we have 50 ft across Ward Place 50 ft across Pleasant way and 66 ft across Orange Road these are built-in dimensions in the roadways that are atypical of a pro of this property since we do have three frontages I think the board can can clearly think of the typical residential home that has a residential property on one side another residential property on the other side this is a distinct piece of property we do have that built-in buffer of the roadways on three of our four sides of the property I'll get to this more in just a moment but I would say that the the configuration that we're proposing which is this u-shaped development that has that has buildings that face each of the three frontages is consistent with the master plan and I'll get to that but the master plan does note several times throughout um that it recommends that there should be buildings facing each Street and since we do have three frontages if we were to propose a single family home for example which is permitted here you would end up with two side two side facades of that building facing uh roadways which I would say is undesirable from a planning perspective perspective and that's also recognized in the master plan in terms of the fact that we are proposing six units as opposed to the one that's permitted in the zone I'm sorry seven units I misspoke um in terms of that I would say higher unit count canterberry Park we can see on my exhibit 11 here is in close proximity it provides several residential amenities um such as a walking trail uh children's playground B basketball court tennis court so we're not putting residents in the middle of nowhere so to speak there is that uh that park with substantial uh residential amenities for these residents to to ameniti um there are also plenty of bus stops along Orin road so again this is a well served area in pretty much any any regard from a mass transit perspective as well as the availability of um of that open space in canterberry park in terms of neighborhood compatibility in terms of the use itself I think we can again look at exhibit a11 which shows 390 Orange Road um which is coming up as an apartment building based on tax records 382 Orange Road 364 Orange Road another apartment building that one came up as a 38 unit apartment complex 340 Orange Road is a senior housing development again a beauty salon that's CAD corner to us at 401 Orange Road and then commercial right next door to that at 4005 Orange Road all of that this is important to note is in the same Zone as what we're proposing and as the addresses implied they are all also on Orange Road um and again I bring that up just to speak to the neighborhood compatibility and the general Trend that we see along this roadway so I would say that this the site suitability standard is adequately uh justified by virtue of all of that testimony that I just put on the record we also have to look at the positive criteria so the purposes of zoning this comes from the municipal land use law um several purposes of zoning are set forth that I think are furthered as a result of our application um to start purpose a promotion of the general welfare we're talking about brand new housing stock in a beautiful new uh townhouse development again replacing non-residential with residential in a residential Zone I think that's to the benefit of of the neighborhood at large purpose G variety of uses in appropriate locations I'll fall back on the site suitability testimony in terms of neighborhood compatibility from a use standpoint um the built-in light air open space that's provided of the property um and everything else that I mentioned like I said in terms of variety of uses in appropriate locations this use was deemed appropriate at a higher density at that eight units um and we are proposing seven units this evening purpose m uh efficient use of land the master plan notes that the this is a nearly fully built built out Town um and finding suitable locations for infield development like this is good planning in other words there are few uh vacant properties to look at within within mon Clair um so when we find something for infield development or Redevelopment um that's that's certainly a good thing as opposed to um expanding the develop footprint per se um again in terms of efficient use of land we are getting outdoor decks and I'll fall back on the fact that there is canterberry Park so again it's not going to appear crammed in these residents are going to have nice spacious units um that are highly modern there is going to be outdoor space purpose eye desirable visual environment again I think we saw the architecture at the at the last meeting or the or the meeting before that obviously a much better alternative than what's there today which could legally uh remain of course um this is a very well-thought out plan the architect did provide us with a I think 27 page slideshow um going over pretty much any aspect of the architecture that I could think of um has been thoroughly thought through this isn't a developer that's coming in here with a with a random design that he's just seeking to put in a box this is something that is responsive to the property itself we've been responsive to the neighbor concerns and providing circulation in and out on one street as opposed to the uh Ward place it's only along Pleasant way so I would say it's a highly responsive design to to everything that has been discussed thus for thus far and again uh the benefit of getting buildings that front along each and every one of these roadways as opposed to having a side facade fronting uh one or more so all of that goes towards the municipal landuse law the purposes of zoning um I think we do satisfy purposes a g m and I for all of those reasons the flip side to that is the negative criteria so it's my opinion that there would be no substantial detriment to the public or to the Zone um this use is not going to stand out in the context of the area I think that's clear with exhibit a11 here as you drive or walk down Orange Road you see several multif family developments you see a senior a senior housing development you see some commercial obviously you see the cemetery um so there is a a presence of non single family happening along Orange Road at this location um and so the the point is that this is not going to stand out as being the only the only uh multif family lot in the area or even along Orange Road in terms of substantial detriment to the Zone I would say there is none I looked at the master plan and I'll get into all of the bulk variances that we're requesting in just a moment but again I'm still on the on the use variants at this point um I did look at the master plan again there are several mentions of the fact that the master plan wants buildings that front along each Street as opposed to side facades here we are proposing this creative U shape which is responsive to that recommendation um in terms of uh the master plan again the township is mostly built out and this does constitute infill development which is which is most of the development that this board is is likely to see due to that due to that fact um there is a I'll I'll quote from the master plan Montclair cannot remain a static community and still meet the needs of its residents empty nesters seniors as well as young people just entering the work Workforce typically prefer smaller homes um so end quote and so the point there is that the the design and the and the living Arrangement and the tow houses that we're proposing although it is not permitted like single family in this Zone it is filling a need that the master plan does recognize and I think again just to quote Montclair cannot remain a static community and still meet the needs of its residents I think there's an implication there that we do need to find Creative Solutions like this we're certainly not saying that in every r160 Zone this is going to be appropriate but in this case if we look at this particular property we do think that this is nice opportunity that the that the township can take advantage of um so all of that goes towards the negative criteria um I would say just to sum up in terms of the use variance that the positives substantially outweigh the negatives I think the board has some good logical um foundational reasons to look at in terms of the the property itself what makes this a suitable location for what's being proposed um the benefits that this is going to deliver to the community again remembering that this is an existing vacant commercial establishment um and again the flip side to that is the negative criteria and I think I addressed the the intent of the master plan there's good language in there that I think we can look at uh as well as uh the the intent or the impact to the neighborhood at large and how this is actually going to be compatible despite the fact that it is a use variance yeah okay um Mr Flynn you've covered the uh the D1 correct correct okay and you've looked at the other bulk variantes I'm really just letting you take a breath that's okay water you've looked at the other at the bulk Varian I have okay um and can you give your opinion we have um uh the bulk variants with regard to the three stories with regard to the front yard setback rear yard setback uh building coverage and impervious correct correct okay can you start with the uh with with the bulk variances and have give the board the benefit of your testimony there please sure so I'm going to list out the C variances um qualitatively and then I'll go into the this the statutory criteria for for Grant of those so in terms of Building stories we are proposing three stories whereas 2.5 stories is what's permitted in the zone I think it's important to knowe and this was asked of us specifically and we do have these figures it was asked of the applicant to provide percent of that third story as a percentage of the story below it um so we do have seven units and if this doesn't make sense cut me off uh the percentage of the fourth floor for each of those units as a percentage of the third floor below it is 42.3% 44.4% 39.3% 41.3% 41.3% again 36.6% and 42.8% uh I think that's actually interesting to note because of the fact that we are required to have up to 2.5 stories but none of our third stories actually Encompass greater than 50% of the floor below it um and again I just put out that on the record because those numbers were specifically requested of us uh moving on front setbacks I would say this is a hardship because we have three front setbacks Orange Road um Ward place and Pleasant Avenue each of those require 25 F feet for front setbacks um we're proposing 20t for Orange Road 15 ft for Ward place and 20 ft again for Pleasant Avenue and I would say that is a substantial hardship which I'll get to in a moment uh rear setback we're proposing 24.25 ft whereas we need 31.5 ft which is a function of the lot depth you're required to have 25% of your lot depth to be a rear yard um I would say notably that does only apply to one of our townhouse units it originally applied to two townhouse units but we were able to pull one of those out of that rear setback building coverage we're proposing 28.8% whereas you're only allowed to go up to 25% from the from the first time we brought this application to the board we were actually at 34.3% so we were able to bring that significantly down uh to 28.8% impervious coverage we're proposing 59.5 5% whereas we're allowed 35.7% again a substantial reduction from the 72.3% that was proposed originally um that comes down to 2,300 Square ft of increased open space on the property notably because we are looking at a use variance um I would say that the imper requirement of 35.7% is not necessarily appropriate for a multif family development like we're proposing um by virtue of the fact that when we're looking at a single family development you do have the implication of larger yards um usable yards um just to put that into perspective in the R3 Zone where this use is permitted you would be allowed to go up to 65% and we would we are under that uh and again that's just for a comparison purpose we we do need the variant of course so to wrap all of that up uh into the the statutory criteria for those C variances I think we can look at the C2 balancing test we can look at all of the benefits that I went through for the use itself um and they out substantially outweigh any detriment I would say all of those benefits that I that I set forth for the use relief uh carry forth here in the extent that all sea relief is necessary to effectuate the use on this property just to give an example of what I mean by that again uh for a multif family development like this you would be typically seeing higher percentages for impervious and again if we look at a Zone where that where that use is permitted you do see those higher percentages um so the point is that for a use like this I would say the sea relief that we're requesting is appropriate um and warranted in terms of negative criteria for that relief I would say that we do comply with parking we do comply with Building height we're just about 4T under the the requirement in terms of Building height although we do need a variance for number of stories again we're 4 feet under the maximum threshold of what would be permitted in terms of feet uh and so that is sort of confusing but I would say that the number of stories metric is more of an aesthetic control rather than a massing control because by pure massing you could actually get a higher building uh I I touched on uh coverage and setbacks I touched on the fact that there is adequate white Air open space happening pretty much all around our property um and the fact that building coverage is actually is actually a reduction over what's there um and what was what was originally proposed like I said I think we can also look at the C1 hardship test again I asked the board uh at the outset to imagine your typical single family home you wouldn't necessarily be thinking of a house that has three frontages typically you would think of a house that has two side setbacks a residential house on one side a residential house on the other side and then a residential house behind you the fact that we have three uh three frontages means that we have to meet that front yard setback to all three to all three sides that's 25 ft on all three of those sides if we had any sidey setbacks that would only be we would only be required to have a six foot setback to those side setb to those side properties lines we don't have the benefit of having any side setbacks so we do have to look at that 25 ft uh in all three of those sides so basically the hardship test looks at the land itself as opposed to the development itself even though we are requesting that variance it really is uh part and parcel of the land rather than the building building mass that we're proposing and I would say that all of that sea relief is justified by C2 and C1 the applicant need only uh meet one of those stand standards the fact that the applicant meets meets both um I think speaks to the appropriateness of this property and especially the uniqueness and um peculiarity of this property uh to close again I would say this is a substantially appropriate project given the site suitability testimony given the mitigating factors of light air open space the mitigating factors of having these built-in buffers that are those Street widths on three of our sides that built-in light air open space of the cemetery across the street that those pedestrian amenities of canterberry Park um some commercial establishments the neighborhood compatibility that I spoke about that we can see on exhibit a11 and not to mention the fact that this is of course a substantial improvement over what we have today which is that vacant commercial building flipping that back to residential uh making it more in line with everything that's happening around us I think is to the direct benefit of the the community at large uh I spoke to the fact that we do have a substantially larger lot than several of the other properties around us again if we look at exhibit a11 we can see some of these property lines and we can get a sense of how large this property is um just based on like I said there is a great variety so it's hard to say the typical lot size is X but by looking at some of the Lots on our block itself uh several of them were 50 ft by 100 so that's 5,000 feet we almost have five times that typical and again I hesitate to use the word typical but we have almost five times that that um I'll say typical lot area in the in the um immediate area uh so having said that I think that this property does warrant a a creative approach to both architecture and use and of course planning as a whole and I think the applicant has done a great job at striking the right balance being responsive to the neighbors and the concerns of the boards so to the so with that if there's any questions I'm happy to answer if there's any redirect Mr Church do have any questions uh no questions at this time Mr viea yeah thank you Mr chairman um Mr F I do have a few questions so you you mentioned uh earlier in your testimony neighborhood compensability so I just want to understand um how how your analysis um comes about so do you consider only the block the street how far out do you go to um come up with your recommendations I could I could strike a line now and figure out what the distance uh North South along Orange Road is on exhibit a11 um but I think the simplest way to answer your question is that I looked at what I would say is a reasonable walking distance along Orange Road um looked at the land uses the Elves and the conclusion that I came up with I would say is if we were looking at a property that's surrounded by single family homes and there wasn't a multif family or commercial property within a reasonable walking distance I would have a totally different conclusion about this property but the fact that if you were to walk up and down Orange Road you do have several non single family uses um especially on our side of the street like I said it's not going to stand out as being incompatible because we do have other similar uses nearby okay thanks and so the other question that I had is during your analysis do you look at um only the proposed development or do you compare with a another development so for example you have a multif family development proposed now um do you compare versus a single family subdivision do you or not I mean the answer to your question is no because I I I'm required to look at the plans that are put before me and come up with a conclusion based on those um but I would also say that again going back to the sight suitability testimony and the unique characteristics of this property it does make it very hard to consider a single family house on this lot um and what that would look like how how many times could we subdivide this proper property would that be a better zoning alternative with all of these different driveways for each single family house that was kind of the point that I was trying to make by saying that this is a substantially larger lot than some of the other homes um with a 5x 100 squ foot lot just for example you could fit that in here almost five times conservatively if you were to say that you could get I don't know four Lots out of this uh you know it's I think it's worth considering that you would have four separate driveways um you could be dealing with a whole other host of of issues and I I look at the unique characteristics and and I and I look at the fact that this is appropriate thank you Mr Griffith so um I hearing you right that you're referring that if we put four separate SLE family residents houses there you think it would be more traffic or a greater impact on the neighborhood than if we put seven units sorry I apologize so am I hearing you right when you say that if we put four single hand family residences on this lot that it would have greater impact than the seven units that are being proposed from a traffic standpoint I would have to defer that to our traffic engineer uh for obvious reasons I think but I would say that like I said when I analyzed properties in the area along Orange Road I saw single family homes with up to six uh six bedrooms so I would say they to larger families a member of the public did mention that there were I can't remember the exact number but every member of their family owned a car I would say that townhouse living is conducive to more uh smaller families that again each of our units has three bedrooms so there there is a certain limitation to that I don't know the the physics of everybody filling up their bedrooms just because they have them with children seems a little specious to me um you mentioned that there's three sides um where you have a major setback but you don't have any setback between the units within once you're on the lot and once you step back from the street the units don't have any setback requirements between each units right the the distance between the buildings themselves on our property is that what you're talking correct yes I believe there's a require in the ordinance that we actually comply with in terms of building to building Separation on our property so that's a non-issue we comply with the with the with the what is what is the lience looks to me like there's uh I don't know four unit if I recall correctly it was 10 ft I think but I I would have to just double check I'm doing that now and that's why there's the gaps between the units apologize for my ignorance honest question correct the there is no variance required for the interior common walls let's say the 10 ft is required uh there was an iteration of these plans that did not have 10 ft and then because the 10t is required this final version has 10 ft between uh the buildings understood thank you um on the back side of the building um I've heard this percent about the third floor mentioned before M I understand the point that it makes uh I guess my concern is on the back side of the building that faces the property line and Neighbors on that side not the street so it's not as public but it's still public to the people that live there and the massing is bulky by comparison because it doesn't have the roof line coming down so it appears larger and more owners if you will that's combined with the sidey yards the the walls of the building that face that that property line don't have any windows it's rather brutal in my opinion I mean I would say I ask you as a planner what's your opinion of that sure so just to clarify this the property line you're talking about is actually a rear setback not a side setback just correct just to make the just to be clear so again we do comply by I think three and 1/2 ft in terms of the actual height of the building even though we are requesting a variance for number of Stories the actual massing complies so we could conceivably get even higher and not and not need an additional variance I don't agree with your point the massing you said the height complies correct you're 3 ft below the maximum height but the massing doesn't comply that's why it's called a three story if if the roof came down on the backside further you could be a 2 and 1 half story building but that's not that's not what you do on the back side you cut the roof up high so you can get that outdo deck and you square off the building and you have a flat roof back there that's that's the difference that's how the code's written I just want to clarify the plans I'm not answering the question um the rear of the buildings are two stories and there are windows as required all windows are where required there are windows so I just we're not seing a variance for Windows the walls that face like the driveway that face that property line there AR any windows in there wall and the reason for that was I think the Privacy issue so so that I think that was the testimony I I heard that testimony I don't agree with that testimony um why we're here yeah I there's bathrooms and there's stairs there I own a house there are windows in my bathrooms and there are windows on The Landings of the stair and you know and I think that's generally true in most houses in Monclair but there that is not the case on that wall there's no windows there's bathrooms and there's stair Landings along that wall I think it would really help um uh make the building fit in and feel more like a residential building if it had some windows in those walls and those locations fitting in from a planning point of view since that yeah I mean I think there's a give and take uh like Council mentioned I think privacy was the reason that there weren't at this point and it could go either way if it's the pleasure of the board to add windows we can certainly add Windows to that to that wall it wouldn't be a problem thank you Mr Cruz yes thank you good evening Mr Flynn how are you good um so I just have before me the uh the architectural plans and I just want to run down the zoning table again with you because there was a couple things that you mentioned that are variances that I didn't notice on the architectural table for example um the orange Road front yard setback uh that is going to require variance you said correct yes okay um on the topic of the front yard setbacks uh are you familiar with what the side yard setback is of uh of this zoning area I'm not based on my understanding of how it's being interpreted because of the the several frontages it's three front yards and and a rear yard no there is no side yard oh I'm sorry a better question to ask would be um like if if those were sidey yards what would the sidey yard setback be 6 feet okay six feet on one side and 10 ft on the other okay um and then moving down uh for the uh the building height uh you mentioned that you're about 3 or 4 feet below the building height correct um the architectural plan shows the building height of 35 ft so which is the um uh is it the is it the style of the roof or I was just trying to understand the uh yeah I understand get bear with me sure of course I believe that was modified we're checking that based on Miss Tally's last uh review and we're checking on that with the architect we believe that that was modified as was the total usable square footage of the percentages that Mr Flynn had testified to okay to try to bring it more into compliance you have um so then uh uh this should be of course available to us in time for the uh the next meeting absolutely okay the answer will be I'm absolutely okay um so you mentioned in your testimony about how uh you know you know development is always constantly changing and that uh it cannot be static and it has to meet the needs of the of the residents how would you say that this project is meeting the needs of the residents so that was a quote uh that I just took from the master plan it wasn't really my uh my personal uh I concur with it but I'm just saying that was a quote from the master plan um and my interpretation of that again quote Montclair cannot remain a static community and still meet the needs of its residents end quote that's page 46 in the mountclair master plan my interpretation of that is basically that the zoning as is if we were to interpret it as being static and not give out variances and not find appropriate properties for Creative architecture and just have a one-size fits-all approach to zoning and development there would be an unmet need um in terms of in terms of the residential living um and it goes on to say like I quoted earlier empty nesters and seniors as well as young people just entering the workforce typically prefer uh smaller homes uh so I would I would I would say that in terms of what the unmet need is I think it it's noted in the master plan that there is an abundance of single family and maybe not as as much as there should be of of other opportunities and this does provide that other opportunity so then it would be fair to say that um of your opinion to not to put words in your mouth but that uh zoning should be dynamic I would agree with that yes okay uh now um see oh yeah uh for the you mentioned how um the plans that were put before you was it the architectural plans that were put before you or the engineering plans and then a second question would be um how many like uh generations of this plan have have you seen like was there Ian I know there was a previous generation that had eight tow houses instead of seven were there other designs and considerations that were made before deciding on seven tow houses yes prior to the last hearing that this application was heard just I guess by way of background at the last hearing that this application was heard we did propose the changes from eight units to seven units I did have the opportunity to look at that plan as well as the revised plan that went down to seven units to answer your question I looked at the Civil drawings the engineering drawings as well as the architectural drawings for both of those Renditions um and I'm I'm not sure if you were I I'm not sure if that your question oh no no um yeah uh so the the first plan that you saw was the plan with eight tow houses from this developer that was the first plan correct okay um think so and then um I guess my uh my last question would be in terms of of the roof what kind of a roof is it well it's I guess you would call it a pitch roof right pitch roof sloped roof yeah yes okay thank you it's more Colonial looking than what it was at in the previous iteration I think there were concerns that we wanted it to look more in line with the with the other homes that we see in the area and the the roof type that we're proposing now um is a result of that and Mr Cruz um I did look it up the um the top of the high roof is 35 in some areas yes okay so the the three and A2 was that was updated to 35 the height at the deck is 21 ft okay okay but still not a variance condition for for he in terms of number it's within the maximum height yeah have the height Max and and then you mentioned that there was like a portion of the building that was like two stories or something that's the 21 foot where the the 21t but that's not right he's not interpreting the building code correctly the 2.5 height on the on the top because you cut the the roof back to allow the third floor to come out onto the deck they call it a three story on some of the units based on those percentages that Mr Flynn had said that's absolutely true for some of the units but not all the 40 where they exceed 40% we need the variances yes okay but I don't understand this TI to the 40% that's just that's a sare footage measurement on the third floor the the code that we're Discerning has to do with the where the roof Cuts up relative the top of the third floor well according to your code 34745 a yeah to permit three stories a half story is defined as a space under a sloping roof that has the line of intersection of the roof surface and the wall face not more than 3 fet above the floor level and in which space the possible floor area with Headroom of 5T or less occupies at least 40% of the total floor area of the story directly beneath what Mr Flynn had testified to earlier when he first began his testimony was that there are only I believe two units maybe it was three that exceed this 40% the others are below wow okay so so that's directly from your code I appreciate the and I do have a question Mr chairman Mr Flynn just for the board's edification and perhaps the audience Mr Flynn who drafts the master plan the the the Town Council town planning board the planning board yeah okay and it's approve the council approves but planning board adopts exactly so it's done within the township of mclair correct correct um okay my uh so my last question will simply be um you also mentioned that uh the lot area of this is uh four times the size of a typical uh lot area in the town uh I'm inclined to agree with that so um I take it there wasn't every consider ation to do uh four town houses or like four single family homes or subdivisions like none of those ideas of plans ever came to your desk correct okay um yep that's it thank you thanks okay um let me you you've totally lost me on which units require the variance for the three story so can we go over that yes yes okay townhouse number one has the third floor of 43.3% of the floor below so we would need a variance for that one townhouse number two 44.4% townhouse 3 39.3% so that one is not a variance uh townhouse number four 41.3% townhouse number five 41.3% again okay and one more uh townhouse number 6 36.6% so that is the second one that does not need a variance and then townhouse number 7 42.8% uh so two do not do not need the variance and the others do but even among those that do that was a simple question you we'll give you a chance to talk longer but but five units need a variance from that's correct the three story requirement that that's all I wanted to know make sure I was understanding correctly okay so um you your exhibit a11 points that 390 r road has Apartments do you know how many units are on that property it's a one right across W Place 390 I think you said 290 390 390 I'm checking now um I didn't take note of it but I'll check right now based on tax records that's coming in as five units okay and you in one building of course and that property bear with me if I'm following your train of thought I think your next question is going to be how large is that property yes which is about 21,000 Square ft correct it's coming up for me at 20 20,700 F feet so a little a little smaller so roughly 4,000 square ft per unit yes that's yeah that's fair um the question and I had asked um encourag Mr mcdunn at the last hearing too terms of his preparation hopefully um the size of these units compared to the sizes of the unit The Bu the houses on Ward and pleasant way um how do how do these units compare to the size of those units I haven't done that analysis um I mean if we could easily turn to my exhibit with the aerial imagery and get a sense of how large these these buildings are around us well yeah but so just to take a random example I'll take the house that the first one in from uh from Ward place which is which would be eight Ward place and looking at property record cards I'm seeing four bedrooms [Applause] the first floor consists of 1,64 squ ft and the second floor above that is uh is the same 1,64 square ft uh moving on to 10 Ward place which is just adjacent to the one that I just looked at um first floor 192 Square ft upper floors again the same that's a 2 and 1 half story building I think it's the angle okay okay I I don't want to sit here while you're looking at I I didn't know that you were still waiting for me I'm sorry um the um the rear yard variants you know I will somewhat you know I the front yards I understand the issues with the rear yard I'm trying to understand the justification for that yeah well again it is sort of one and the same because we do have those three substantially large setback requirements on the other three sides it does push us I'm sorry it does sort of push us in that direction in order to meet those as much as we possibly can um but again also if if we were to look at those as a side setback which visually it's not too far off from being a sidey yard we would only be required to have six feet um obviously it is that variance for being a rear yard but I think the board can look at those two fact I mean it's either six or 10 feet but I um right I mean it it's let let me do the the the among the concerns in the neighbors is how this is impacting their property and your the rear yard on Pleasant way goes back further than the rear yard on Ward place yet that is where you are asking for the variance and that variance in turn is creating the narrow point in the driveway that we discussed with the traffic engineer and um troubled by why would we be granting a variance for the rear yard that's creating a narrowness in the driveway you know it it seems to be creating a problem in addition to building closer to the neighbors houses and I'm I'm not really understanding the planning rationale for granting that that variance well again just from a sheer setback standpoint not not discounting what you're saying about the circulation but from a setback standpoint we are looking at a neighborhood that can have 6 feet 10 ft between property lines so we are looking at existing houses in the neighborhood that can conceivably be 6 feet apart from each other and here we giving them 24 over 24 ft right but if you and I'm going to get to my larger point in a second but this is leading up to it but if you were doing a conventional subdivision with a house fronting on um Pleasant way yes you could have either a 6 or 10 foot setback on that side and but you're not and it's the and my larger question is normal when you're doing multifam tow houses like this one of the benefits is the creation of more open space Green Space however you want to call it on the property but that's not being accomplished here and partially it's not being accomplished because of the size of the units and um you know on the one hand I understand subdividing the property and creating single families is awkward um and has some consequences in terms of multiple curb Cuts but we're we're not getting any of the benefits that you would normally associated with clustering the housing units and um you know so and that's compounded by you know not only is the house closer to the rear yard but you're running the driveway right along that property line yes keeping the required setback for a driveway but you're suddenly having a lot of intense development border you know bordering the house unpleasant way that wouldn't otherwise be there so just my rebuttal to that would be and just before I forget you did mention that we aren't increasing Landscaping the existing pervious landscape is 6,570 square ft we're bumping that up to 9,594 square ft we are uh decreasing lock coverage from 72.3% to 59.5% and I think that's evident on my exhibit A10 showing the vast per uh pavement on the property so I think that what we're proposing actually is going to be greener it is going to be softer than what we have today um and again terms of you use the word clustering that's the reason that I looked at the requirement of the R3 Zone and sort of compared that to what is required in the R1 Zone in the R1 Zone there is no clustering you're required to have single family so the lot coverage is is what it is in the R3 Zone there is that density that sort of uh compounds itself and you do get that clustering and the coverage requirement in that zone is 65% and we actually meet that which is why I said I think this is actually appropriate in terms of the the proportion between developed versus undeveloped space on the property but you still need the variance for the imperious cover because it's in a single family Zone yes okay but Mr chairman if I could also remind the board um with regard to the size of the units that you have mentioned a couple times um added the size of the units are are somewhat larger about the testimony was about 300 to 350 extra square feet because of a two-car garage and they were also required to be or required to be accessible and every one of the units has is is accessible um therefore it does require more space so I just wanted that was testimony that uh the architect had given okay the I'm sticking to asking questions of the witness are the units all required to be accessible by the ordinance if you don't know you can say you don't know I don't know the answer to that um the I can get that answer for you before the end of the evening though one of the concerns in the township is affordability um and I understand that one unit will be affordable and there'll be a contribution because you're not doing a divisible by five number of units but other than that how and is what impact is this development going to have about affordability you know this is a neighborhood that is what I I'll call A working class moderate income housing area has been forever um what is the impact of developing these units on this property going to be on that so to answer your first question I do believe that each unit is required to be accessible that's the answer to your original question in terms of affordability are you asking if this property would have an impact on the value of homes in the area yes I mean I would say that replacing this vacant eyesore on the property is certainly not contributing much of value to the neighborhood and replacing that with anything would conceivably make the property more desirable the yes I this is I don't think if the neighbors are seeking to maintain the property in its current condition I um may be wrong but I think it's it's a question of once these units are built and you know other than the affordable unit what what is how are the prices that they're likely to be sold for going to impact on the values of the neighboring homes in terms of keeping this area not literally affordable in the strict Mount Laurel sense of the term but affordable in the um Medi median income you know the 80 to 120% of median you know working family range I mean like the master plan says uh there is a segment of the population that is looking for smaller more affordable housing this does provide that option the res smaller I own a house sure these units are all bigger than my house so I'm you know you know an empty nester and I would not be getting a smaller house if I built one of these houses and I I don't think my house is atypical of town it's not typical of Upper Mountain Avenue but I don't think it's an atypical siiz house and this is bigger than a lot of houses these units are bigger than a lot of houses in town right well if you have a single family home or even if you live in a two family three family there's substantially more privacy that comes with with that type of living whereas here you're talking about sharing this property with you know several neighbors there's less private yard space that you might have in a single family uh development uh so even if the units might be larger than than some other units that are single family again uh this this doesn't come with the the typical privacy and ownership aspect that you would get with with that type of living okay Mr Griffith um you know I don't pretend that this is something that has to be done or needs to be done but when I looked at the plans I agree with the size it's about an average size house in Monclair to my eye uh I haven't done any statistics I'm not going to refer to anything on that um but I was hoping that like one of those units would be cut in two and have you know smaller units that would sell for a price significantly less than the other so that people you know uh people that live alone and have single single family income could afford to buy um and that's the kind of when I hear the words from the Monclair um master plan uh say you know asking for smaller units that's what I think I hear um do you think there's any way to consider something like that are you suggesting to split one of the units in half to again get back to the eight units that was proposed originally yeah I don't I just want to make sure I understand you could take the ground floor and you know you could split it horizontally or you could split it vertically right I mean there's a lot of uh a lot of homes and Monclair that are uh two family houses that have you know one family lives on the first floor another family lives on the Upper Floor and um you could do that with one of these units or you could literally take the unit um Mr Harrison was referring to that's pinching your sidewalk pinching your drive and pinching the backyard setback and cut it in two and take the other half and put it on the other side next to townhouse 7 you have the same square footage you're going to sell the same amount of square footage you're going to get the same money back in your pocket but you gave two units you got eight units you're addressing a smaller you're you're providing a opportunity for somebody to buy a lower price unit I mean I work with people that they're not married that that they're in New York they work hard they can barely pay their rent for the for the apartments they've got they'd love to move out here if they could afford to buy something but they can't yeah I mean just to I guess it's just an idea certainly consider and see if the design Works um you know take everything back to the to the owner and the architect and understood certainly uh sounds good to me but I don't count so yeah and again we had something that had I'm looking at the old site plan now and I'm looking at the building footprints that we were proposing when we had the eight obviously they're smaller so again it's it's a balancing act we're trying to strike the right balance and this is just where we are now I guess I want to say that I do I do think it's impressive how far the design has come and how far it's changed and how much it has responded to the input um um I try yeah thank you any other questions just one more um uh for the uh in preparation for the testimony from the from the Civil Engineer do you are you aware uh at this time and I'm not going to hold you to it but just are you aware at this time if there's going to be further uh revisions to the engineering plan or another response to the neglia engineering comments it's it's my understanding um Mr Cruz that um Mr um Norberto Norberto Hernandez I think Mr Hernandez and our engineer had a very lengthy conversation um on Mon today's Wednesday on Monday of this week um that they went through each of um Mr Hernandez's points okay and that there would be a mutual resolution of all of those issues which it's my expectation that we will take care of at the next meeting okay thank you it would be helpful if we get that before the next so I don't have to ask and Mr Cruz doesn't have to ask three million engineering questions helpful to all of us Mr chairman I concur um are there members of the public who have questions for this witness Bonnie Abrams Fogle I have a question and a comment um in the process of I know you you work on numbers and data but when you read a master plan that was written many many years ago that's actually in the process of being Rewritten did you get any idea that perhaps there might be other resources and ways to look at shifts in the population and by example I mean mine is just based on my personal experience but of the eight families I can identify in my mind that I know well were from the same religious house of worship and the last four years when they've sold their houses in Monclair none of them stayed in Monclair they either moved to surrounding towns many of them left Essex County because of the taxes all of them were displeased with the overdevelopment and traffic in Monclair which is a nightmare I say that is what having buried one of my best friends October 29th from the way people drive here and um so uh I do not see this mention of this being for empty nesters as being realistic I also know dozens of people who've lived primarily in the third and fourth ward for many generations and none of their kids can't afford to live here there are kids who've gone to college gotten master's degrees they can't in my own building which is a very poorly run condo which is much different than the co-op I lived in in New York City that was very well-run the rents because of all the new building in the last nine years that I'm here because owners and condos can generally rent to people that don't need to be vetted have doubled so I do not have any of the 58 units more than half of them are young people none of whom are mon clarans they're all up here from Manhattan and Brooklyn and other places and I know that because all the young men wear flannel shirts and knit hats when it's 80° okay so the information that you've gotten from the master report that you're taking as being legitimate is not legitimate in my experience and the experience of most people I know what you are building is being built to attract people who have a lot more money than the working class here and not to serve our community this Miss Toller was waiting patiently that was a qu may I respond to that chair yeah that was a question if it was a question yeah I would just say that you know the alternative would be to I'm assuming make smaller units and make more of them which sounds contrary to to some of the other sentiment that I'm hearing so it's toer thank you I'm sorry your name again Matt Matt and you work for John McDon okay and the name of the firm is John McDon John spell the last name for the MC d o n o u g h okay question um the one affordable housing unit that is proposed in this project can you identify which building that would be in the square footage compared to the other ones Miss Toller just the testimony at the last hearing was they had not decided between two units which I wrote down as units four and five they are not the smallest units okay I assume it's where you're going that's exactly where I'm going so maybe he can answer my next next question let me has that changed in terms of have they decided I don't believe they have I don't believe there's been a decision but certainly one of those two units okay thank you for that thank you uh my next question is what is the total square footage of the total project and what is the cost Factor if this was to sell tomorrow built as is what is the total profit to be made from a project like this so your first question I can answer do you mean the total square footage of the buildings all five yes all five well seven it's seven now right seven units seven unit correct right uhuh 17,5 3 Square ft which is a reduction from the existing 20,000 sare ft and how much is square footage worth in retail today I'm not sure you have no idea can so many factors that you could take into account I'm not a realtor just one other question well not a question it's a statement so if you would please indulge me uh the commission I have to thank you sure um I just wanted to say that that I want to Echo with many of the comments being made here tonight by the residents in the fourth board regarding 400 Orange Road while I understand the zoning board's job is to review all applications with principal duties to hear appeals to Grant variances from the strict application of the zoning ordinance and to rule on use applications I'm not certain why we have zoning laws in place if we're not going to enforce them or keep them um especially if we're trying to stay in the character of the neighborhood we have zoning laws in place for a reason correct uh the need for anyone to be granted an exception to the rule seems odd particularly when it happens and continually happens in the fourth ward how many variances have been granted previously in the fourth ward already the the fourth wart deserves a reprieve from variances the residents matter residents are entitled to open Green Space Sunshine clean air less noise o no less noise pollution less density in the neighborhood I'm just respectfully asking that this board please take into serious consideration every comment made here tonight by these residents why it was made and please come to a consensus on the best decision for the fourth ward and its residents thank you for allowing me to say [Applause] that Patricia Davis I live in Montclair I just have a question um because we've already heard from a transportation person who's using three-year-old Antiquated dat data had not been to the site um is not taking into consideration Amazon trucks the increase in pedestrian fatalities in our town um I just have a question Mr Flynn have you actually been to these places to see these buildings that are laid out here have you what do you mean have you seen these properties yes so you know what they look like so you know that the only one that actually looks like an apartment building is 364 Orange Road that the others actually do look like houses so you knew that right I would disagree they look like houses from the outside they're all houses what do you mean by because this is an apartment complex corre where these others that are indicated as apartment and office look like houses there's architectural features that are more similar to a single family but they're still multi family if you were coming into this town and walked by these places you would not know that they were multif family units I can't answer that I would know but you you said you saw them yes I did so then you know that they look like single family homes I disagree I don't know how that could be um I'm a realtor in town by the way and it's $350 to $400 a SC foot um so I know that these look like single family homes okay okay so there's the Aesthetics and the other part of that is and I have to reiterate what was said about the fourth ward we're pricing out people that have been in this community for a long time they cannot afford these homes that are going on the market their homes are being sold to developers that are coming in and turning them into million-- dooll homes it's not right I have to ask questions it it's I did ask a question obviously couldn't answer it so I just want to say and and and by the way I also notice the difference in how people are treated when someone can come up and make a statement and they're not interrupted and then other come up and make a statement and they are interrupted that's also [Applause] noted good evening my name is Mimi Weaver I live in the First Ward I was watching this on TV and my insides turned they turned when I was listening and I can no longer stay quiet they turned when I listened to the traffic man talking and how he totally disrespected the residents of the three people in a row not asking question I I will come to a question and I have I'm sorry I'm going to keep speaking Mr because being disrespectful to a community that has lived here for generations and to turn your back I live again in the first war young man how can I leave my home that is worth near $2 million now and move into your what you want to build and just pay pay $2,500 a month tell me how I can do that how can my son who lives on the second floor of a condo here in Montclair and by the way on James Street where they built some tow houses and the the the the the one that was for um affordable is a one-bedroom in the apartment and another bedroom on the outside near the garage and it's not attached that was the affordable on the one on James Street he lives on the second floor he now needs a three-bedroom how can a school teacher move into what you're building here he is stuck on that in that ask a question let him answer yes how can I come and move into into what you are building at $2500 a month because that's what our taxes are I would love to move but tell me how I'm going to do do that in less than $2500 a month how will my son be able to move um to a three-bedroom on a school ask the question school teacher salary those are my two questions one of the units is required to be affordable by by requirement by law one is required to be I understand it's required by the okay let let him finish the answer to the rest of your in regards to the rest of the units I mean it's all it's all relative it's not required to be mandated affordable units I mean exactly and you said and you read from the from the mount Clair plan that this is for the community for people what was what were the quotes that you read for the senior citizens who want to move and for the community you were looking to build for Outsiders to come in and to push the residents who have lived here for Generations out and shame on Miss Weaver you have to let him answer the question and it is what was the bag what was your response what was the word he used I don't remember I don't either I do feel that you guys are concerned for our community but you can't let people roll over over the community [Applause] um sir you mentioned that you mentioned that possibly four single family homes could exist on that site and did you consider that well um may I tell you that I found the 1947 tax record there were four homes on on that exact site four single family homes would you like to see it if if you want it we can mark it as an exhibit it'll be 01 Mr chairman this isn't the time for this is time for question she is going to she is asking him a question about this and is she already asked and he can start answering was he aware that there were previously four single fam homes on the property no all right and you also weren't aware that when Patricia asked you the question about Orange Road you guys didn't drone I live across the street from 400 Orange Road you said that you did a drone view but you didn't go anywhere near the commercial Zone that these apartments are situated on the south end business district you stayed right right on Ward place on Ward place going into South Orange this goes into South Orange are you aware of that West Orange and orange this goes into East Orange number two goes into East Orange East Orange touches Monclair at a point yes but it's really orange that borders the Town East Orange touches Montclair to point at the orange eair border you said that 364 Orange Road was offices 364 Orange Road was apartments one of them is a senior citizen apartment and it's not shown on my exhibit the senior citizen is not showing you didn't that's what I'm saying you didn't bother to show anyone what do you mean it's too far you have them listed I mean I had to make a decision as to what the extent of my exhibit was going to be and you did not go into the Zone where these are not 390 is next to me that is right next to me I'm at 5 w place and it's in the9 single family Z 390 is a single family home that's been converted into Studios two of those apartments are Studios one room one of them is a one-bedroom and the other is a converted Co-op condo or something that they renovated you did not do due diligence in your research sir and the other one is a very small tiny two-bedroom that they've turned for this one five yeah 390 390 390 I looked at tax to records I can't go inside people's homes but I can look at tax records and it said five units okay but it's five cut up from a single family home poorly cut up I will say 4390 and 382 these are homes they look like homes and as Patricia was saying you look at them you've got them listed as Apartments the only apartments are the senior citizen Apartments uh way up in the commercial Zone but you did not bother to send your little drone anywhere up that way if if that's a question as to why I chose to fly my drone where I did I mean if the board looks at exhibit a11 I would have to fly that drone pretty far to get anywhere that's not in the R1 Zone and I'm not going to fly the Drone the property you are a planner and you're using our homes I'm not going to drone the whole town you're using my home which is across the street with a drone I'm not using your home for anything I'm using the surrounding neighborhood and I you didn't go into the surrounding neighborhood you stayed in one block all of these are one block one block again I wanted to show the subject site on all of these images so we can see the the relationship of the property surroundings okay but I understand being a thorough planner you were not terribly thorough tonight go back into the tax records as I did with the Historical Society of Monclair and see that there were four single family homes on that lot exactly two of them were subdivided they were owned by one gentleman those Homes at eight W Place were built in the 1970s that two lots as you can see were owned by the same person and it was divided so there were four single family homes on that lot and it can be done you just don't want to do it because it's about money it's not about affordability and if the master plan is only for the Masters then where are we and if rules if rules are made you be broken and you all break your own zoning rules you break your own bylaws you break the rules of of the order of business you disrespect us we're sick of it you did not do diligence not there were four single family homes and it can be done and if they would like to sell the property I'm sure we can find someone and to say we are all Working Class People what you saying we all po did I say that didn't I never said any I never the word working class never came out of my mouth oh yeah somebody said it's Working Class People whoever not me was not us it was one of the board members I'm not saying that either I live across the street and the and the scale of this building I live in a ranch most seniors and I'm a senior don't want stairs nobody wants to move with three flights of stairs I fortunately have one of the few ranch homes in this town and I am going to either be forced to move because this is a this is taller than the trees on my street you're talking about a building scale-wise where I will see nothing but wind windows and walls and I got to look up at it it will block the sun the sky and everything on that corner I understand you all want to make money but can you go somewhere else and make it [Applause] good evening my name is Dave Heron 136 Lincoln Street I do have a couple of questions is that better yes yeah uh my first question is you keep referring to the master plan I would caution you to be careful dependent on the master plan the master plan right now today is under siege okay you quoted from the master plan and you said something to the effect the master plan speaks to the needs of what's needed to the community my question would be how do you square that statement with the community that's behind you they're not in support of this these are the residents and I look around they're the residents in the area that you want to build in how is that conducive to the master plan because when you start discussing a master plan was needed for the community that's the community okay not building it for some other community yet to come here so that's my first question how do you square that knowing you're quoting a master plan that the community is not even in agreement with so the master plan that I looked at is from 2023 and I I just put that on the record because I think there was some testimony by a member of the public saying that it's several years old the master plan I looked at was from 2023 so uh pretty recent considering the fact that townships need to renew their master plan every 10 years this one's been around for about one year um and again what I what I spoke about from the master plan I think speaks to the fact that really we want to encourage a mix of housing types not just single family not just detached housing because not every everybody can afford that not everybody wants to have to maintain a lawn area um this this is a good alternative to single family living um and it's a it's a different option than what a lot of the township has already okay it's right and just for just for the record the municipal land use law as part of the statutory criteria requires me to look at the master plan that's we look at the Zone plan and we look at the master plan it's it's part of our due diligence oh I I'm quite familiar with that I've been in this community 50 years I've been leadership and president at NAACP I understand communities and building and development uh one of the things I'm concerned about and perhaps you could shed a little light on that I keep hearing the word affordability and your view what do you perceive this development project to be in your mind what's affordable so the only time I used the word affordable was to describe the affordable unit and I was very careful to do so because obviously that carries with it certain uh legal definitions I may have so to answer your question um I would would say that living in a multif family development is typically uh more conducive to to people that might not be able to afford a single family home okay that's all the questions I have but I wish you luck you as [Applause] well you know my name I was here before Oh they had a meeting at uh 400 orang Road about about 2 months ago I was there they had a couple relatives there so I just say I say I know a friend of mine looking for a place I how much to go for a million dollars up million doll up that cheap again James dark 391 orange roid my question is how tall is the building the houses next to it I don't know you don't know well you should need to find out because there air rights right but that the air rights would be bound they would be air RS with those building right behind it w place and um Pleasant way but the airs would be confined within your property lines so it wouldn't take into account what's happening outside of the property ones it it it it takes in the height of the building and the neighbor made mention of the sunlight that's going to be blocked from her building in the air so forth and whatnot we just swept through in New York with air RS building next to it and they had to pay for it well you need need to look into that sir as a You're Building aild you're building a building taller than the building next to it but within the zoning requirements whether it's in the zoning requirement or not if it's taller than the other building is a violation Mr Scott good evening and uh Mr Harrison I i' I'd like to uh provide a presentation that it's similar to the planner's presentation as he walked through uh the west side of Orange Road starting at 340 Orange Road and I'd like to make that presentation because it speaks to the past history of the housing type types on orange Ro for the last 30 plus years am I allowed to do that no okay you can ask him questions about it and ask whether he knows any of that but you you'll get an opportunity when they're done to present that okay then I then I can ask them a couple of questions then U and this this can go to the plan starting with 340 Orange Road uh which was built back in uh uh the year 2000 um that was an R1 Zone uh do you know how many houses how many one family houses was on that property uh when the senior citizen building uh was uh built no uh there were two one family houses because it was an R1 Zone okay uh in regards to 354 Arro which was built back in 2012 um do you know how many uh well let me just add to the fact that 99 units were built on that property which originally housed two two family houses that's 340 Orange Road okay so you answered the question you didn't know but I'm trying to give you a little information there do you know how many houses were on 354 Orange Road prior to them building 12 units or two six family U apartments no uh there were two two family houses do you know how many houses excuse me could you go back I'm trying to take notes there's 12 units on what Orange Road 354 354 and the one prior to that there's how many units 99 you said yes what number Orange Road uh that was uh a 340 Orange Road thank you okay uh in regards to uh 3 60 Orange Road which currently has uh four units there it's a townhouse do you know how many uh units was on that property uh which was built back in 2022 which address uh 360 Orange Road uh no I do not okay that was a vacant lot uh do you know how many units are currently in 364 Orange Road which is an apartment complex current you mean yes I believe I do um based on tax records 38 units currently that's that's correct and that was built in 1950 uh are you aware of how many uh one family houses were built in the Hitchcock complex back in 1958 may I ask where the Hitchcock complex is it's on the west side of Orange Road it's down Hitchcock Place well Hitchcock place and all and that is the name of the street is okay and some of those houses are on Orange Road as well right okay do do you know how many were built I do not I could count the Lots but I don't know there were there were 21 plus one family houses because it was an R1 Zone okay in regards to and and my point being those changes to 340 Orange Road 354 Orange Road and 360 Orange Road was based on approvals to some extent from the board of adjustments okay uh allowing that higher density in an R1 Zone okay and as we build this additional density obviously it's affecting the the community okay and now we as Citizens in uh neighbors and residents we have accepted 340 orange Ro because that was a senior citizen complex we accept the fact that we needed 354 orange R because that was a Supportive Housing H uh complex for people with special needs or disabilities okay but once we moved the 360 orange road now we're building um expensive units there's four units there there two bedroom units the average price on those new units that just went on the market is over $4,000 for two bedrooms okay now we're moving into creating genic uh and the lack of affordability right okay um as we move to 400 Orange Road you you now basically we talked about the value of the individual units those units most likely will be in the price range not the affordable unit but the market rate units absolutely will be 800 to 900 and possibly a million dollars each even though they're tow houses because of the sizes of the unit being 24 to 2600 Square ft these are not starter homes absolutely not starter homes so they will not meet the needs of seniors in Monclair who want to downsize I'm a senior I've lived in the area for for I lived in the area for 74 years uh if I wanted to downsize I would not be able to move into that unit I possibly could move into that unit since you have my property at 382 sell everything I have and move in but that's not that's not my game plan my plan is to provide affordable housing uh which I am a realtor I have third generation family in my units question so my point being as we move into these new developments that are aiding and abetting the gentrification in Monclair the fourth ward has taken a tremendous hit in that justification and and one of the members mentioned that maybe taking one of the units and dividing it and making a two- family house there's recently a two- Family House on Mission Street that was remodeled do you know how much that house just uh uh is under contract for right now I do not 1.1 million $1.1 million so the average rental price is going to be5 to $6,000 a month so we are experiencing extreme gentrification in the fourth ward and as far as the master plan is concerned the master plan has not addressed the fact that 75 to 80% of the affordable housing Supportive Housing veterans housing is in the Fourth Ward so when they talk about this town is built out we are supporting in the fourth board the majority of the affordable housing in this Township and if we can do that in one Ward and the other two Wards specifically first and second ward has 1% of the affordable housing this town is not built out we have to take a serious look at the master plan so when you say we could have gone somewhere where else to do this you could have gone somewhere else in the township and and and look to build this property this project but you didn't take the the time to De dents to do that thank you Mr Young I have a question I have a question to Mr Young Mr Scott Mr Scott I'm sorry you're young because you said you're 74 and I can't believe it okay I'll take that you had said that there is an there is an overabundance of affordable units in the fourth ward yes okay and I take that as your word as a resident into the fourth ward yes but yet you would rather this developer build affordable units in the fourth ward no no that's not I just want to make sure that I'm getting your point what I'm saying and and I think you missed the point with the fact that you would be bringing this size of a development with this potential cost it will have an impact on the property value because the the lot right across the street on the corner of Orange in war warplay is just as large as this Pro uh project that owner is looking at selling that property now for a million plus dollars knocking that unit down and he could put up 10 to 20 units possibly another townhouse configuration and be looking for prices $8 $900,000 per unit that absolutely brings gentrification into the community so I'm not willing to accept one affordable housing at the expense of our community and at the expense of the neighbors because M Hubert she would be looking at tall buildings on both sides of her property why should one one resident not one single resident should have to experience that at the at the greed of a developer so it has nothing really to do with the affordable units per se when you're no because we and because I understand knowing the community I understand knowing the community what's going on in New Street Mission Street heartley Street Maple Avenue Walnut Street there's been a change on two family houses and those two family houses have been going for a million plus and the people that used to live there two three generations that were paying maybe ,500 to those units are going to5 to $6,000 this project just fits right into that strategy I I was confused as to but I got okay thank you any other members of the audience with questions for this witness Shantal Bolivar 17 W place um so um I would like to refer to the fact that um you feel that the seven um units the buildings is going to be beneficial to the resident um what do you base that on like who wants to live places where there is buildings rather than a place where there is a house with a nice yard like where did you get that that feeling from which study said that it was based on an analysis of the property itself and its relationship with the surroundings as well as the compatibility of what we're proposing with what we see along orange like one of the residents mentioned orange is lined with multif family um there is some commercial here there's the cemetery across the street we try to find what's most appropriate for this particular property if we were trying to cram in seven units on a 5,000 ft WT a 10,000 ft WT it would be a totally different conversation it's simply there is a zoning there right and I feel like it's for a reason like this block doesn't have any buildings like you went out and look at other places but you have to understand that the residents actually love that about this block and it's actually even if it's rare it's something that the people would like to keep we would like to have a place where it's affordable where we can have single homes we don't have to always be in an urban type of place we like the residents like this block because it's residential so I feel that your argument is is not right right I mean we're not proposing this that in a in a location that would be surrounded on all sides by single family this is sort of an end cap at the end of this block along Orange Road which obviously does have those other uses along it uh I would say that this is an appropriate location for the units that we're proposing so but what don't you guys are thinking about four single family home like the zoning is you know with four single families I can't guarantee that a an affordable unit would even be required um that would again require four separate driveways whereas we're only proposing one that's more interactions between oh I'm talking compared to the res to the residents to to us like you know to the rest of the res talk about the difference between four units and seven units yeah and a building and and a house is totally different the house that you uh listed 390 Orange Road it look like a house on a big lot and you know it doesn't change the the overall look of our neighborhood but buildings will well there will be substantial Landscaping whereas 390 Orange Road does not have that benefit we are going to be proposing Street trees all along Orange Road uh we have Landscaping throughout we're going to be increasing open space on the property and again we have to look at what's out there today that can legally remain this existing vacant building there's no one forcing the developer to get rid of that that's the developer's free will to replace that with the more conforming uh residential use okay so I just want to address uh also if I can make a statement is that okay it's going to be a short one just to reinforce very very short yeah to reinforce what you heard from all the residents that lived in that area we don't want a building or buildings because we think that it's going to change uh a lot of things and not for the best for us thank you any other members of the public with questions is before Mr Scott comes up is there anyone else who has questions for this witness okay Mr Scott this is a question for the plan are are are you aware of the uh one family house that was built on High Street uh which is off of Cedar Avenue uh about a year ago I'm not uh it was a one family house uh it came about through a subdivision uh I believe that house was 4 to 5,000 square ft I had four F four four at least five b five bedrooms four bathrooms uh as I mentioned was at four to 5,00 ,000 Square ft and it's sold for like 1.4 $1.6 million this property at 340 excuse me at 400 Orange Road could accommodate two one family houses and be in compliance in the R1 Zone that's a question for you from a use standpoint uh that's correct conceivably I would have to see and make sure that the dimensions obviously would you know the the the width and the and the depth and everything the way that it would be subdivided but from a use standpoint yes and then with that being the case it would fall right in line with the character of the neighborhood I mean I would say that it would not be compatible with what we see happening on orange especially on properties that are this large properties that are this large along orange are typically not single family based on my but with the availability of this particular lot which is larger than the average houses on Orange Road it could be built and comply with the R1 Zone and still provide the character and the look of the neighborhood well the reason that the zoning board exists the main function of the zoning board is to find pieces of properties like this that might not be conducive to the requirements of the zoning code simply because the zoning code is a one- siiz fits-all requirement where you can't possibly conceive of every single property in that zone there are certain situations that might warrant variances which are what we're asking for my last question this is a this is a softball one okay if you were to bring an application to the board of adjustments with no variances just like an earlier application that came in to expand the size of a home I don't want to speak for the board of adjustments but I think that their deliberation after this is your fourth meeting here sir I think so yes okay and soon there be a couple more hopefully one more and as I mentioned not to speak for the board the board of adjustments but what if you're going to bring something to not only the board of adjustments but the to to the community as well we're looking for something that's conducive and fits the character of the neighborhood and does not impact the character of our neighborhood and we should be given the same respect that every single resident and every single board in this town receives and we are concerned that this application does not provide [Applause] that any other members of the public with questions for this witness debating on the sequence how much of these units going name again I'm sorry just for the record oh Kimberly how much are these units going for I don't know how much is the affordable one going for a million doll I don't knowon okay you answer the ordinance sets the income limits for the affordable unit you know what about the what about the ones that's not affordable the ordinance does not set that that's one of the issues we're dealing with and it's only one you try to make seven or eight seven units total six will market rate one will be affordable and the developer will have to make a contribution as well to the affordable housing fund because it's not divisible by five basically it's your ordinance is five units five units five units if it's not divisible by five you have to make a contribution for the fraction okay can I ask this last question how is it that us as parents is supposed to keep our kids in Mont CLA where it's beautiful we love Greenery I'm a monair native to a certain extent but um I went to M High School my kids went to M High School my excuse me my husband went to M High School his family went to monair high school we're all Monclair Natives and I know maybe some of the board has been to mon High School how is it that our kids are supposed to buy something that they lived in for all their life if they want to but they can't afford it because we have developers coming in and they're buying up stuff and they're kicking us out that's been here forever I don't understand how you feel so comfortable in your spot to develop all these big buildings highrises we're going to say highrises and it's okay how do you feel if you in your neighborhood I don't know what where you where you from Sir middle sex County okay how do you feel as though that that's affordable for your kids if you have any kids I don't know if you have kids middle sex County or mon player middle sex I think there's affordable options do you think it's affordable here in mon cair do you think that you would be able to raise your kids in Montclair at the prices that you guys have these houses going for or condos again I'm not a realtor and I haven't been in the market in Montclair so I can't really speak to the the house but but we're talking about this now do you the housing the condos that you're trying to build now do you feel as though if you were to move here in Monclair do you feel as though that you could raise your kids here and and teach them how to buy property or do you feel as though that they could buy property here in mon cleair I mean to get to the root of your question I think I mean even if like one resident said if we subdivided this into four single families you're not solving the issue of affordability by doing that you're talking about the going rate in Montclair there's nothing this developer can do other than provide talk anybody could a lot I'm sorry did i' would like to ask your a question why and I'm not trying to be I'm not trying to be funny why did you not buy the lot I can't afford it well do you know what the developer paid for the lot Pro it doesn't matter the the point of the M the point that I'm trying to make is is you guys are kicking us out that's been here if someone in the audience bought the lot because the L you didn't come around to our neighborhood Pleasant and Ward no one came to us to say hey we have property would you like to buy before a developer you never said any no one came to us to that lives in this neighborhood this developer didn't run the the developer bought the property on the market just like anybody here could have done that and he's about the point you could have kept it affordable you could have done whatever you wanted Mr M I'm having a dialog I'm not arguing she's asking questions at this you could have bought the lot and not Mr yes I'm I'm sorry I might not left to converse I'm she was up here pretty much asking questions right and I was asking her a question okay that's not if when she gets up and testifies you can ask her questions so could you answer my question no what was the question I think the answer to your question honestly is if you were to subdivide this and get multiple single families or even one single family let's take one single family for instance now you have one single family building on a 24,000 square foot lot that's not going to that's not going to be any more affordable than what we're proposing if you subdivide dived into two three four single families you still have large potentially large buildings potentially large uh private yards you're still not solving the affordability issue that way either so the simple fact that the developer is proposing seven units is not the cause of the of the issue and it's not making it any worse either it's making it worse okay do you have another question try and lessen it let's not do seven can we go to four can we even go to we can even maybe maybe push it to five maybe but it over the edge are we talking about larger units conceivably no still going to be the same and not only that but it's not going to be affordable you're talking about one person affording I asked the question I the question excuse me I asked the question how much nobody has an answer nobody has that on the table what is a what is Affordable to you why would a five unit development be any more affordable than the seven unit development what is Affordable to you to me personally what can I afford is that what you're asking yes I can you afford a million doll home I'm not going to answer that it's irrelevant how is that relevant to this conversation the the ordinance sets what the affordable unit can be sold for and it's not in his control it's ordinance it's not in our control that that that's one of the Givens here okay anyone else with question it's not affordable I'm sorry it's not affordable it's it's not AFF okay let let's let let let me do this the a affordable is based on they it's based on median income and then it's either 50% or 30% of median income it's set by ordinance it's set by state law it's in the real world it'll be affordable the other units are a different issue any other when with for us no no I that I'm going to get to that point because I want to direct comments to the applicant on the issue that is before us okay anyone else with questions for this witness okay now I would run if I were you uh and I would yell at Mr MCD if I were you um the um when is your engineer available he'll be be available at the next time that you can accommodate us okay and that is a problem um how badly are we booked for our REM literally our remaining meetings this year stop our um September 18th meeting at this point has two confirmed applications two of them look like they're dropping off so um if this could be the third application for September 18th October has also three at the moment but some of those canceled ones from September 18th might be going there November and December are um empty at this point okay who are the two applications that remain for two weeks for um this September 18th it's uh 61 Mission Street and 204 Claremont app venue okay 61 Mission has the same issues as this yeah okay I am I assume you want to be on as soon as possible that is correct Mr chairman okay the residents what is your thought and let let me do our problem so you understand why we heard the other application first tonight as you saw it took 15 minutes overdone we have have a lot of applications like that pending that we're trying to fit in because we have a lot of lengthy applications will be my nice word um that we are required by law to hear within a certain time period And I do not think those folks should be prejudiced to get their simple house edition whatever heard by the board and if I were them I'd refuse to wave our time limits to act on the application cuz why should we wait cuz you have these big controversial applications that's why we try and fit them in the um one application for the 18th we've carried twice now correct it is literally across the street um it should not take long but one does not ever know Mission Street has the same issues and we're there will not be as many people here but I suspect there will be some and it is the exact same issues as Mr Scott was pointing out in terms of um do you have preferences as to when we hear this okay okay let me let me do how does September 18th work for you knowing we have to hear the other two applications first I feel like because it's so long and we've been here over and over and you know a lot of us of course like all of us have like life and everything so a date where we could be first to be heard would be great as far as I'm concerned I don't know other people feels like the we just have the one October meeting or there yeah just one meeting in October on the 16th and then November 6th December 4th and December 18th are the remaining meetings for the year I think October might be better date okayer October we have an application we carried on by wheeler on Wheeler Street which will not be short and the exact same issues we already raised those issues you you do not want to you know the the date that is free is November 6th November 6th is at this point uh completely free yes be first Mr chairman just respectfully why would wheeler have priority over us has that been started yes it has been started it's started we we had okay imagine this application exact same thing a fewer people but exact same application okay I mean if that's the best the board can do I would like to to finish I I I mean I I think the since we have others that we're obligated to I okay um and I don't think you want to add your audience to Their audience and okay you know I cuz I think there will be okay so it's November November 6 okay and we'll be first on the agenda be first and only application on the agenda okay the goal is to finish that evening um so if there are any members of the public who can't come that day day after election day you'll all be tired um but um yes sir Mr chairman um I'm an attorney and we did have opposition sorry could you please come to the podium good evening um Mr chairman I am an attorney uh we did have opposition which we had uh hopefully thought we would be able to present this evening but understandably um they haven't finished so we can't present that opposition but the November 6th meeting if we can be assured that they will have finished their application and then we can present our opposition okay then we can do the November 6 okay could Council identify himself Clarence Bight I'm sorry sir Clarence forknight and who does Mr forknight represent please miss Janet yubert Miss Hubert spoke this evening is that correct she she answered she met she made some questions but she did not testify Mr chairman I had specifically asked that that not happened and just for the record Council was here Council heard her ask a question Council represents her and I just like to preserve that for the record at Future hearings only if you call her to testify can she come up understood okay um the what was I going to say okay um the the only thing and I think it is in everyone's interest we finish that evening um I think a lot of that will depend upon the questions from members of the public um how long that takes um I um one point on that I you know in particularly now that you have time I want a memo I want however this occurs I want a memo from the board engineer that is as clean as possible that I don't you know if there are issues I'd like it to be a finite number that we can address and otherwise the board engineer says good good good good good good I understand um I don't want to spend a lot of time debating between the board engineer and your engineer as to um I'm trying to think how to do this the issue there are a number of bulk variances that are required that are triggered by the size of the units the size of the units is one of the issues that is compounding the sense of the neighbors that this is not fitting in with their neighborhood um the and I think and you know we've had the same testimony on the other applications in terms of what the master plan says but it's missing the underlying point of of this is a very special town and what is happening and a lot of this is nothing to do with this application I know what's happening on my block and what houses get sold for on my block when I moved on into the block there were three firemen living on the Block firemen could not build a buy a house on the Block anymore anywhere close to it and this is not a good thing um but this board can't you know fix the bigger issue of a lot of Rich folks are trying to move to town um but I'm dealing with it in the context of this application the size of the units and the whole approach is hard for me to reconcile with the finding that it's not resulting in a substantial detriment to the public good I mean that's that's the context we're doing it we're you know a lot of the things and no offense to the residents are you know not really our issues but it is um you know the the there's a The Dilemma in the zone planed is Zone single family the property is currently not residential and how you square that um and I'm not voicing where I'm coming from on how best to deal with it but it is a sense of um is this what we want the town to look like is how I'm going to do it and the these plans are an infinite approvement over what was originally proposed that looked like it came down from outer space and had no relationship to the community um but it is a question of justifying in terms of the negative criteria of this it is really a regularly shaped parcel it's not like it's a triangle or weird angles and justifying a bunch of bulk variances which as I said really come from the size of the units um is you know I'm struggling with how I get there and the other part of it which is I as I asked the question of your planner is one of the rationalizations for doing multifam is really the wrong work for this but attached housing is probably a better way to describe this is getting additional open space and you don't have that here it's just plain and simple and then that ties in again to the size of the units I um I know Mr Griffin had a thought on don't come back with eight units I that that that's your going to make some very irate people here if you suddenly shrank units but came back with eight of them I'm obviously saying I think smaller units would be better but you know I think go back look um and there may be better configurations of this I there are and I um and I'm going to throw one other thing out that um know when I no um not editorial there are issues with the school bus stop Crossing Orange Road there are not crosswalks some of this is not totally within your control but doing things with saying gee it would be good if the board recommended certain improvements you know that you suggest as to what can be done I if I had a kid who lived on these streets I would be nervous every day about yes um getting on to and from the school bus um you know some you know it it's and you know the size of the units so probably will be some school kids I you know how many who knows but you know there's certainly bedrooms for them and um I I think there are existing conditions I do think that a little attention to the coming out of pleasant way and whether you do have good sight distances is something that should have been looked at um I understand and you know I do bigger applications in one sense there's not a lot of traffic and the normal traffic sense of doing that um the um but that does not make it a safe intersection and maybe it is I you know I was very cautious when I drove out you know the couple I've been a couple times to the property well several times with its long history here but um was very cautious before I made the left to go back into Monclair I um you know I think you have been given the objectors have given you hints on some of where they're coming from and you might want to be proactive Mr chairman if we are indeed proactive and I hear what the chairman is uh what the Chairman's concerns are um I think it's in everybody's interest to have this finished as as soon as possible possible whichever way the board goes um would the board consider a bifurcated application um bifurcated in somewhat of an unusual manner because we have put on our testimony with regard to um most of the issues that will still apply um if there is a redesign or an agreement to redesign um by let's just suppose you know reducing units to 2,000 ft from 2400 and being able to move that one corner of the road because of the reduction um without having formal architectural drawings of each of the units um would that be something that the board would consider so that we don't spend all kinds of time and money um we'd have to re-engineer um Etc the engineering would stay consistent I think we can get the engineering done but the let me I think that's a function of what you're doing with the third story with the bulks right yes because that's clearly invoiced as a concern both by board members and members of the public and if you're keeping the third story I think then we need to see architectural drawings or say they're exactly the same um you know that's um I don't think I'm not approving a variance for the number of stories without seeing what it looks like I be very BL I'm not an architect but I am imagining that most of the square footage will come off of the third St I'm just guessing I don't know um well okay I I'm not going to design your project but would that would the board consider then approval of the use and well you're entitled to do that I I um I think you know you have to weigh that means you're coming back a second time and well at least know I you know I think given I don't know I will leave that is your choice I if you come in that way we don't have a choice about doing it I understand the reasons you would do it so I'm okay um I um so but you know the I think there are still there are some of the engineering comments that are site specific but there are some that I will call generic would apply regardless as to you know checking the sore Mains existing sarm Mains that type of stuff you're going to have to connect period And so I'll leave it to the engineers to figure out what but I even if you're coming in bifurcated I still think most of those issues can addressed and um and there just maybe some site specific where you know storm water control devices going on the site um any board members with any further comments or thoughts okay so this application is being continued and no I uh if I may um along the lines of the reduction of square footage a different approach might be the um maximum building coverage of 25% and it's 28.8 that might be a different tactic to take um and may give you more flexibility uh I is just my personal thing I think it would be nicer to have more variation in size of the units that are on the site everybody has the same size unit right now like everybody you know I think it would be in the better interest of the community to have a more of a mix if you will any way you do it I think you have a very good architect he shown great skills he's made changes he listens well um you have great opportunity yeah and I think you know and that would be you know there are considerable variation of the house sizes of the houses in the area it's not an old cookie cutter approach which is one of the nice things about town um you and that I just to follow you know that that was my comment on the open space Rel the impervious cover that you know make make it more making it look more like a single family area even and you might actually accomplish that better by putting more units together um and having a real yard c um but which would trigger which would trigger a variance well you're having no not a yard in the sense of no the the more units together right yeah well yeah but I I don't know that that's a different in one sense it's a different variance but okay it's um okay okay this application is being continued until November 6 vote early and often the day before skip the off in part and we um we'll see you on November 6 there'll be no further notice um and for the audience please try and follow the rules it will get everyone home sooner you can make your points and we value your input but it's better if we don't speak out of turn is that you know ask questions when it's turn and you will have your chance next time to say whatever you want as to whether you like dislike or whatever the development but I I would also encourage the neighbors to sit down and discuss what you would really want to see on the property not now okay is there a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn second all in favor say I I nice to meet everyone e