##VIDEO ID:dtEfmAy1QTU## 18 United States of America to theic for which stands one nation God indivisible liberty and justice for all I hereby announce I hereby announce meeting is being held in accordance with chapter 231 of the open public meeting act proper notice of meeting dates has been given to the Mars news be and the Mars County daily record and posted on the bulletin board in the burrow Hall this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and the quum appropriate to a judal hear in must be maintained at all time roll call please Mr Mr G Mrs Kelly Mrs ster Mrs M here Mr Kelly Mr here mayor and Mr are there any comments from the public speak on matters that are not on the agenda tonight seeing none we will close that portion of the meeting parent we have any correspondence no no correspondence and we have no bills minor site plan committee nothing M committee um new business no old business is application tb24 McDonald USA this is continuation of the public hearing good to see you all out again um I just want to go remind everybody's been doing well um know there's the board knows there's a lot of interest in this and appreciate as the chair said you keep the quum as if you were in the court proceeding that's really what this is It's a POS judicial proceeding respect everybody these are all residents you're all residents um let them speak you'll all get a chance to speak um one at a time as you can see somebody is uh transcribing so please if you're questioning allow question how person to answer before you ask another question um has to be questions not statements everyone will get a chance to speak at the end if you choose um there's lots of interest in this and as in the court proceeding he has to not be not be repetitive the questions have been asked by all means Asked all the topics but they'll just just repeat um and like a court proceeding you can't ask questions sit down get up ask them later everybody gets one shot so the people that asked last time that was a shot there are people in line that didn't get a chance obviously they can but you only you get one chance and you get to ask everything that you want that being said um we'll continue with the questions for the uh traffic expert if you people that were in line before want to get up before we start Madam chairman and thank you I just wanted to um say that I um I got here I don't know about an hour early and I did notice that some of the staff was already here I just wanted to thank the Morris Plains uh B staff and the professionals that have been setting up this room um this is not where we usually meet and the fact that it's been in this great condition and there's been really no hiccups in the tech and all that I really do as the applicant appreciate and and I thank them um before we get to the the um questions there was I did receive an email um a couple days ago from a member of the public and they wanted to for me to produce a list of all of the locations of the 30 or so that Mr Parago testified about um at at the prior hearing about other McDonald's locations Etc so what I'm going to do is I'm going to have Mr Parago uh produce that list to your traffic engineer who works for the burrow um and then I guess it'll be available um to all of you but what we are not going to do is Mr Paro is not going to be testifying about those 30 locations we're not he gave his testimony he used an example of raway he mentioned a couple other but he's not going to give testimony on 29 other locations we're just not doing that so the board could take that they could judge the weight of his testimony based on that they could accept it they could throw it out whatever but I'm just telling everyone if you're going to ask questions about those 29 locations um that's the way we're proceeding we're going to give the list to the traffic engineer and you're free to get the list look into it go to the locations whatever you're going to do um so I just wanted to give that uh preliminary comment so Mr pero I believe you're still under oath yes okay and Sir Joe Amarosa that's a m o r o s a 20 Dayton Road questions are about the traffic report okay can you describe more the traffic volume data collection process you said it was a digital technology uh our counters use a electron board do coun the previous question was about the eror in the count board you said minimal error is that correct have any the person counting could you know be off a little bit but they're generally pretty good can we describe that as human eror sure in your experience do people typically overcount or undercount I don't know if there's one way or the other if anything I'd say over because you hit the button an extra time but I for the most part it's accurate we're not talking big variations with not substantial enough to impact the Anis did you collect data on travel speeds along speed well no why not it's not relevance of a Capacity Analysis did you analyze or study Traffic Safety at the site the safety of the proposed McDonald J and we didn't at the request of your board traffic engineer request crash data there was it's been done three crashes in three years our existing travel speeds relevant to safety depends where your analy for analyzing the operation of the proposed bounds no for the peak periods who chose to collect traffic going data how did you pick these times of day 7 the 7 to 9 and 4:30 the 630 on on a weekday it's a traffic engineering industry standard it's what the it uses 7 to n and they actually use 4 to six but I always found that you never between 4 and 430 usually wasn't part of the P so we use 4:30 to 6:30 and find that works better did you collect a straight line count of traffic volins along long speed well yes through volumes yes did you collect a straight line count on speed well for a 24hour period no so what is your confidence level that 7 to9 and 4:30 to 6:30 are truly the 2hour peak period 25 years of experience the entire traffic engineering industry the standard practice of how we do things did you measure Q lengths long speed Q lengths from where down stream traffic signals yeah we did the Gap study which would include the C the can you further describe how the gaps were counted or collected I believe we've already been over the Gap study um for about a half hour during the last hearing Mr OS so and I know you were here so you heard it do you have a new question about it because he did go over the methods and how the Gap study works all right gu I didn't write that down excuse me I guess I didn't take note of he he described the methodology yes he did for the trip generation you said 710 vehicles for the peak hour and that was the the weekday and daily 710 was the daily BL do you have the daily SHP generation for Saturday and Sunday um I can find it it's it's low 710 is the and like I said that comported McDonald's anace the independent variable used was the gross fler area of McDonald's yes are there other options for that calculation for trip generation they may have it for seats I'm not positive but the standard for New Jersey do and Industry standards the SCH did you request crash records from NJ do no from the police department on the site plan can you explain how the crosswalk relocation to the north helps safety trying to get L up so we don't see the crosswalks sense what I'm talking about respond too quickly if you put the crosswalk between where it is today it's sort of between the two driveways which is just sort of like it is today and closer to them closer to the driveway so we wanted to evenly space it between the site driveway and Dayton Road and capture the opposite corner of speed well this was actually at the suggestion of the burrow we took it to New Jersey DOT they agreed same thing yeah this is a better location with this configuration because remember right now there's a driveway right next to where this crosswalk is we're getting rid of that driveway so that's why it makes no sense where it is can you is the offset between your driveway and Hill viw from Center Line to Cent line yes about 50 ft I would estimate does that comply with New Jersey access management code yes they don't have they don't have anything about the drivers on the opposite side they happy with the location of the driveway we had our pration meeting we need to be 12 ft from the property line and 24 ft from Chas and driveways on our side that and your traffic data collection did you count bicyclists we if there were any we would have but I don't believe they were count the pedestrians did you factor the traffic data you collected for seasonality or month of the year not took counts when school was open which is will be a typical day for this location back to the report for your uh drive-thru queuing analysis what stuff in the Drive-Thru process is the uh slowest the speaker or pickup or P for an individual vehicle it's the speaker it's the order me the speaker which is why they like does why me are switching to the two l so they can get that through faster because they're able to deliver the food out the window and that's with your service rates describing the ordering step yes for the drive-thru queuing analysis what did you use as a design vehicle passenger 18t length that's 20 ft spacing between vehicle to vehicle and drive theories we've done studies to verify that so the little car that's shown here is the Astro design vehicle which I believe is 19 ft long but the spacing distance we use is 20 V that's what we see gra how does that Q calculation get impacted a a long truck or something longer than 20 ft there's probably also cars that are shorter than 20 ft and there it's on average 20 ft when The Pedestrian pushes the button at the rectangular rapid flashing vegan can you describe what happens to traffic on speedwall they they visibly see the the beacon flashing somebody's looking across the road much higher visibility than the little orange flags that are there now how will that device impact congestion on speed well assuming that The Pedestrian volumes are similar I don't see how it will be any different impact than you have today it's going to be safer that's the B line in your experience does that device attract more pedestrians to cross at that location I haven't been aware of any studies that show that are we able to discuss the truck turning drawings those three that was an exhibit for the site engineer so no we're not going to have any more testimony on that plus Mr Parago already testified to that at the last hearing the truck turn I remember it and you were there so it happened did you consider a right in right out driveway on speed well for your site access no any consideration for res spreading speed well for a turn lane in both right turn Northbound left turn southbound if NJ do makes us do that we'll have to do it it's up to them their Road uh just to clarify what you said before you just looked at traffic operations there's no consideration for Traffic Safety there is considerations for Traffic Safety relative to the application Force I didn't do a corridor study of speed well Avenue that would be a whole different thing this is to this project can be built and operate safely thank you hello hi to Tower Hill Road in Mars Plains first I want to be sure I'm I'm up to dat in terms of people exiting the property either either the McDonald's property or da Road they can go right or left on speed well there's no that's correct no modification correct now Mr P I'm not going to ask our our expert to talk about 31 McDonald's but he did site six specifically as similar there b long Brest West two Lan points this two L but and so I have I've looked at them carefully I've done screenshots and I have research that I would like to submit to the board if anyone is interested um and I'll ask L if there's a mechanism to do that but the one thing that jumped out of me is they all have some kind of guidance for traffic it's either right lane only um and it's an actual traffic l i I hate the Dr but you can only ask questions oh oh I'm getting to it give me a minute okay at or there's a turning l so the question is was that ever considered for the Mars PLS property or would it ever be as as I mentioned to the last person there if NJ do asks us to rest the RO turning we have to do that it's not necessarily based on my analysis our pre-application meeting they didn't indicate any need to do that but when the application is actually put forward we have to do what they say relative to the crosswalk the lighting do not block all that stuff it's their Ro so right left no no prom from your point of view thank you um my other question was um from the traffic report the October 9th traffic report uh you you made clear that the engine do going to is going to go up no matter what 2% a year is is the njt annual background growth rate table and then it goes on to say through consultation with the Mars Plainsboro planning board staff there are no other developments in the vicinity of the site that have been approved not yet constructed that are identified as significant traffic generators then I to believe it was after this report came out at least first became public in mid October New Jersey's fourth round of recommended affordable housing obligations which Mars plans would be tasked with 341 affordable units times five because of the whole thing with Builders and if we add in Mars Township H Township and pany that's potential 10,730 new units with this new information be something You' go back for a revised traffic study um and take into account the traffic from those um obligations that's exactly what that reference for the 2% even though a homeing ground of obligations with and then lastly um you said in in your testimony that there's actually plenty of room that the site can handle a lot of traffic the additional McDonald's traffic it was a an optimistic and a Rosy picture and you went forward two years if something should happen whether it could be foreen or but year three year four and we've got FR loock and we've got safety and we've got headaches and we've got you know accidents what remedy would in your experience as a traffic expert does a town have if the Optimus predictions prove not to have played out that way what can they do B is there the tra is there I I'm not sure what what headaches from because of the McDonald's saying it's more difficult to turn out I mean I think people would just make a right turn instead of a left turn it's it's not something that's going to be problematic to anything but the operation of the mcdonals now if you're talking about speed well Avenue as a whole I you know I'm not studying speed while Avenue I'm studying McDonald's but those things will be improved and that's why we all pay taxes you know beway improvements or or anything got thank you Also may I submit my research into if it's relevant you can do it at the time where you can speak at the very end thank you traffic on speed we have 700 Cars Sorry 700 cars pulling in and out of McDonald's a day possibly okay how will that impact traffic on speedwall particularly cars pulling in which have to slow down that was the whole testimony that I gave the last he that's what the whole traffic report is about how that's specifically what I analyze is this will work the traffic is on speed so there will be no further impact no substantial impact no okay is there the possibility of more traffic accidents with people pulling in and pulling out I I don't believe so I believe what we're doing would would actually make this site safer in terms of eliminating a driveway providing a a better crosswalk that flashing Beacon whicher big improvements we're permitted use here and don't necessarily need to do those things but we excuse me please let him answer I know you pretty good please let him answer and then answer okay I'm just a little I'm just a little confused because I would think with that many cars pulling in and out there's the potential for some accidents coming in and out of the driveway that goes for any driveway or access point we we design it to have proper visibility and as safe as possible but any driveway has that potential we're getting rid of one we're going from sideways to one so we're making that better okay um the tractor trailer pulling out on to Dayton Road and now there are cars at the top of the box and the end of the box so the Box is open okay does the tractor trailer pull out into the box you mean they do not block the box right it pulls out just like any other car when there's when there's a gap in traffic okay but the tractor trailer is likely then to block the box if the cars are are at either end of the box and then the police could give them a ticket it's supposed to BL the bo Ronald Jer three times in way thank you Mr for just here and thank you to the planning board for making decisions available uh my questions have to do with the the parking how many cars I think you said eight two lines of four at the U ordering kiosk yeah before get that cross yeah right and how many McDonald's attendants are taking those orders inside I don't I don't know maybe maybe It's Magic to me that they can figure it all out they do and and how long is the ordering process on average Bas based on the setup that they have they they can theoretically process 150 to 180 vehicles per hour through there so if you if you do the math it's about 48 seconds per Lane 24 seconds an hour so less less than a minute for each order yeah okay and then 710 cars per day coming in over a 17-hour period averages to about 42 cars per hour does that sound about right on average oh if if they were spread out evenly through every hour I suppose and then at peak hours it might be up to 60 cars per hour or one per minute I would guess the PE it's busier and then off hours it's hard and so in a really busy time where do those cars stop if there are eight cars quar in the ordering what are those cars will behind my testimony the last time was you know that we don't believe that there's going to be an issue in terms of the queuing but you could still fit past that back of that four more cars before you were out on the speed there is an extra buffer if that were to happen but the probability I testified the last time with our queuing model and based on I experience other the probability of it getting past that crossw is 0.18% so it incredibly improv thank you thank you Don younger 10 walshe got a few questions uh first of which is just generally what is the purpose of a traffic study and specifically why do McDonald's requested P there are all kinds of different traffic studies and for this particular case the purpose of the traffic study is to determine what conditions of traffic would be like with and without the McDonald and and determine if there's any change that would warrant some so so it's fair to say that this is a sort of pro future conditions in a way that lets them proactively make changes to to benefit uh and I guess the question first is that what I'm saying and second to benefit McDonald's burrow Mutual benefit how does it usually how does it usually to to benefit the motoring public let's um verification question from your report uh you wrote traffic associated with lu 934 is not 100% newly generated rather a portion of traffic is diverted from the existing traffic stream on the and this is what I'm asking about the adjacent roadway Network um does that mean speed well does that mean Route 10 and Handover what does ajason mean speed the pass by is just speed okay you will get some people who will divert off in your road but that's a different thing okay uh referring specifically to table four probably have um on table four I'm I'm focusing primarily on the morning the the afternoon Rush would be similar am I right to read that there would be 35 additional primary trips in the morning and 27 in then yeah well 30 35 cars a trip is the vehicle entering or exiting so one car theoretically is two trips so 35 cars 35 additional cars yes okay um you know future revision I don't to ra this as a question would you care to know that your column headers are uh there tyo I I can you confir out total in now total it it is I'm a traffic expert not a Microsoft Word expert I don't know why it does these things but it does okay um I think this is probably my last uh ofation question um probably these numbers in table four is is the way that they were generated that you took your count of on May 1st fed it into the um Institute of Transportation Engineers trip generation 11th Edition and that sort of yielded these predictions the the the it trip generation projects those numbers based on size of abild on the size of the building yes is it related to the traffic count you did um on May 1 put the two put the two together okay oh I'm sorry you put the two together to can you clarify count the the specific location the counts that we do is one component and then the projections of how much traffic the S generate we bring them together to do oneis that's the the the numbers are based on the size of the building and the type of use Okay so again uh yes referring to table 4 um am I correct that 69 total cars um would would be predicted to be counted during the morning Peak out yes going into the going into and then out of and then most of them no numbers don't balance because it's statistics but yes fair enough um when you wrot peak hour I want to clarify the term hour I was wrong about that would be ask clarification question sorry the term hour do you mean 60 Minutes or do you mean the morning rush like using hour to indicate 7 to 9:00 a.m. 60 Minutes 60 minutes okay so between 7 and 8 there would be approximately 69 additional car or sorry total cars and between eight and N they're being 69 total cars some number L between between whatever again we assume that the peak hour that it gives me would happen at the same time as the roadways peak hour because we w't be conservative that might not be the case but the busiest hour of McDonald's would have 69 cars coming in the next hour might have 62 the hour before that might have 68 we look at the peak on Peak because any other time it's going to be less traffic better results and bearing that in mind Mr bolo testified last week that McDonald's predicts about 710 cars per day is that correct is sub uh no I don't think that you I I had I did first of all I was giving information I received and it was I think a range of transactions per day is that what you're talking about uh yes he he testified about the cars I testified about the transactions and it was a range okay I didn't I didn't say so that was Mr par okay Mr par cars yeah about 710 okay so if during the peak hour there are about 70 cars per hour and there are about 15 hours of operation um 6:00 a.m. to to 11:00 p.m. um what does the trip volume look like during off peak hours that allows it to reach that total of 700 or so cars if the peak hour has about 70 that's less than the peak that's the point it every other hour of the day you can pick any snapshot any other hour of the day and it'll be less than 69 cars coming in the example same thing with speed well out I do the counts and pick the busiest hour there and I match them up and make them say that they happen at the same time it might not be the case they might be offset we're looking at the the worst case so this way I know every other hour of the day it's going to be some combination that's less bring that between zero and 70 is a pretty broad range in order to add up to about 700 within those 15 hours is it safe to say you probably need 50 to 60 cars at 6:00 a.m. and at 10 p.m. and at 1 p.m. and at 10: a.m. in order to add up to about 700 I I don't know I never really thought about it that way but it's less than the PE Point okay following that train of thought um I actually want to follow up on what Mr Gia asked last week um so if there're about 70 cars per hour hours and there about 10 to 15 employees mrte testified um during those peak hours um 10 on the regular shifts and we assume about5 or $10 per car it's sort of back of the envelope sort of Sanity check math where does the overhead the utilities the taxes the franchise fees what happens in the off peak there are fewer cars to generate the revenue that the the 70 cars per hour at Peak would have to have to add up to that's not a question for that's not a question for him okay uh when you when you were analyzing your data did you think in terms of these off peak hours and and having how how the numbers would okay how did you choose May first uh for the weekday observation just check the school calendar make sure school is open some we get hired to do the traffic study and when the plans are far enough along we don't to get too old make a determination make sure we're getting a typical day uh do you recall if the weather was that day I I don't our counters write it down usually but I don't we don't go if it's snowing or you know if there's wild thunderstorms you know it has to be typical um do you know what time school lets out at bur School uh I have it in here somehow I don't know the my head but yet check do you typically do only one observation date on a weekday the weekend is a different date do you only one observation day for application typically yeah is that industry standard yes okay and you testified last week you don't make statistics understand that um have you you come across the term uh statistical power I'm sorry there rtistic power I assume that me no no no I'm not t fine I I'm I'm curious if the idea of multiple observations um was something that you were would have hoped to do time allowing is that something that you want to incorporate into your practice we we do make multiple observations we only physically sit there for the full two hours to be with the board one one time to get the numbers to get the data of course they fluctuate from day to day that's why we build in all these levels of conserv assuming the Peaks on on the peak using these it numbers that I testified to last time are higher than what McDonald's does all those things are built in to be conservative but you're looking for the typical day it would be disingenuous if I did my counsel in Thanksgiving and it would same way it would be disingenuous if I did my counsel a day when there was a a massive you know performance going on in town or something like that we're looking for the typical day we build in conservative measures to make sure that we cover those variabl what you OB that day um approximately in each hour of observation there were, 1400 cars that we Justified last week uh two-way volume yeah two-way volum okay thank question uh so that was in each Direction yeah 1300 1400 yeah okay um do you have a lot more we have about 12 people behind you yes you have a lot more so your second observation on September 12th did you use those numbers in the it trip generation algorithm did you plug those in the the second observations were the Gap study so were volumes you were counting we were measuring the gaps in traffic it was a different sort of thing so in appendix D um you have your Gap analysis observations um that's what generated table that's correct yeah okay yes uh there's a volume column I think it's the second column in appendix D um is that the I assume the number of cars no that's not we actually a big debate on what that actually is in the office because we're not counting the volume when we do that you're holding down buttons essentially when there's cars blocking the driveway and you're letting them go when there's not and machines measuring the gaps down the things counting 1 2 3 4 5 six even if it's just one car sitting there because they're backed up so it's that's that's it's trying to estimate a volume I guess but it's not accurate it's not a uh a volume count the volume counts are separate I don't know why it does that it's the software okay it's a good question it took us a little bit to figure out what was going on there too doing these Gap studies with these boards but yeah it's not it's just it's just a rolling count that's not real I guess and okay answer my [Music] question does the it analysis or did you in in your report look into the effect of the road being near its capacity on these gaps ask that again is is there a role of how close the road is to its capacity how many cars are on the road in any given time what effect that would have on the gaps um use the no we're looking at the gaps when the road's at its busiest time in hypothetical where there is additional traffic because of the the fact that some of the traffic is passed by and some of it is newly generated trips if the road was to be close to its capacity would using the langage term traffic would the traffic increase linearly or you mean does the delay increase linear exponentially really correct with the gaps become smaller as the cars are sort of stacked oh as closer together well that also has to do with the speed of traveling but yeah more cars going to be less gaps that's why we do the Gap stud okay and and you said you didn't look at traffic speeds right no it's C on time so if traffic gets more compact generally worse as as you get closer to capacity your Gap analysis showed that it that would not be the case because there's plenty of capacity left on on our roads there specifically on speed well there's enough gaps in the traffic flow and speed well thanks to the two traffic signals on either end to accommodate traffic exiting froms more than enough to accommodate traffic exit this just a reminder for you and some of the other people who are asking questions um off-site traffic is never grounds for denial of a permitted use application let me say that one more time off-site traffic is never grounds for denial of a permitted use application so everyone could continue to ask questions on it it's fine Mr Pary is here but um the offsite traffic is not really although we have a traffic report we're required to submit the offside traff traffic um is handled on the level of the governing body when they allow a permitted use they allow a permitted use because in their opinion it can accommodate the use I just wanted I don't know if everyone knows that but that's what the law is but go ahead continue last question actually given what you've observed outside of the traffic observation in in this room in the the zist of Morris Plaines how do you reconcile what you observed with what you're hearing what you observed on speed of what you're hearing now how do you mean why do you think that there is a discrepancy between your observed numbers in our lived experience I haven't heard anybody done a gap study or these Capacity Analysis I mean I'm not saying that Speedwell Avenue is no traffic it's a busy congested Road there's no doubt about it that's why we do all these studies to make sure that it can accommodate this Redevelopment of this piece of property okay thank you thank you Tom batt b a t t a g l i s e to hutler Road um so last week you stated on parking that there are 30 physical parking spaces you said there were two um two credits for the the um so I believe there are five spots parking spots reserved for delivery vehicles like rubub and so forth um so that would bring it down to 25 spots uh for customers coming in to have capacity and then we were told that there will be up to 12 employees that could be on during peak hours um and when a truck there is there unloading you have the potential to block three to four parking spots so if all employees need a spot and there's a truck unloading doesn't that mean there's only about 10 parking spaces available uh for customers or if there's no truck 13 as opposed to the 30 that you're talking about at that specific I guess maybe all I know is that we weuse research data of parking accounts actual Park cars whether they're an Uber guy or employee or whatever physical number of Park cars and based on all that statistical data from the it I don't know how many restaurants past few restaurants have studied and based on my studies there's way more parking is necessary thir would be more than enough all right um I to that point I know so you were looking at statistical analysis that showed less than a 1% chance 01 to whatever it was of running out of parking space and drivethru capacity so had less than 1% for both of those scenarios um but some not the parking the driver que extending beyond the capacity under that crosswalk %. what was the percent chance then on the parking there's no study for percent chance but in my opinion zero okay so there was some discussion last time about Central Park um that we have right around the corner um your traffic study didn't take that conveniently in my opinion overlooked this fact um and at times today you have you know tons of cars potential buses uh coming off with lots of hungry kids that would probably like to go to McDonald's um so does your statistical model You Know cover something like that I know you were talking about rawe and the busiest Regional McDonald's and so forth I don't think there's a sports complex in that area so I think that's the concern here with the you know with the traffic the drive through overflows when we have situations like that it's not just a a once Year celebration or whatever as you wereing to before this is constant during the uh you know the nice weather Season Sports season basically yeah and again we we're looking at a typical day we build in several levels of conservative Assessments in our analysis to account for those sorts of variations and deviations it's all accounted for and who knows May 1st maybe there was something at that Sports Complex I would know you tell me I don't think at those times that I think that's that's the concern so it is actually a typical situation that hasn't brought into the model here um um so what would happen if we have cars coming from Central Park and then you have a spill over onto the traffic now we're talking about traffic noing up on speed or your traffic engineer asked me that the last time in the in the unusual case where the drivethru was backed up what would happen I said people wouldn't move on they'd go to a different McDonald's they'd go park they wouldn't send a drivethru I mean how how badly do you want chicken nuggets that you sit in the middle of the road that's your opinion though right reason he's an expert so that's what he's here for he's here to give his opinions we I'm sorry what's the problem have you ever seen have you ever been driving down some Road and see a drivethru backing out onto a highway maybe for not McDonald's okay um so it's still not clear to me what would happen if a bus arrived again from the Central Park we get buses multiple many buses that come out at a time from tra soccer meets and so for sir that question's been asked several times I know and it still hasn't been answer well then that's all then then you've got your answer cuz he's he's testified to this at the prior hearing a couple times they had questions about buses this is the first time I've come to address no no but I'm saying the question of buses has been asked at least two or three times and if you guys if you don't like the answer I'm sorry but he's answer you're not entitled to the answer you want he gave you the answer that he testified to can you repat the answer because I'm he doesn't he doesn't have to repeat it I I if I could please please don't please don't please don't everybody yell you know as I said at the beginning go back for that I know there's interest in it please there's two people talking let them talk don't just you wouldn't do that in a corpor you wouldn't do that there have respect for people up here don't just shut people down really appreciate take it down two people that are speaking speaking I I'm not going to jump into this but the question and the concern about children in school buses where they would go and how many has been raised they want to one more time but it has been but please respect everyone our buses allowed in I still don't have an answer that I it seems like no one else remembers either so maybe you can refresh our mind the site is not designed to accommodate buses so if the bus comes up to the they'll have to find some place else to park I think the bus is not going to come into the site the bus drivers know where they can take the bus and where they can't okay um another question that's been put off is you told me to Mr told me to ask that the traffic engineer here so about fire and emergency vehicles if the truck is UN can you please explain on this diagram here uh where fire trucks would park there's no emergency Zone that's been designated it appears how would they have safe access to if if a fire truck had to come on of the site to fight fire in either of the driver hous par if a truck is unloading if not going to park an apartment space it's too big I understand that but there's no fire zone there's no designated loading zone and you're telling me that it's this is safe if there's an emergency to allow emergency vehicles as large as fire trucks in the lot that's what I'm telling you yes are you able to depict that with the software that you use here maybe for the next meeting we depicted a tractor trailer which is bigger and less maneuverable than a fire truck so if it can make it the fire truck can can you bring the picture up with the tracted trailer so please uh please explain to me where the fire truck would uh would go if there's the trucks are in the truck is in the back there oh you're saying the fire truck comes on the side at the same time the truck is delivery delivery driver doesn't Evacuate the fire just leaves the truck he can still fit because this is all open paper back here that's the drive-thru area right right so cars are getting food at the drive while the building's burning is that the scenario isn't there overhead things that go have a certain clearance on the drive there yeah and if the buildings on fire the truck will break them down if they have to this application was sent to the fire department and they had no comments on the uh on the site plan or any of the movements so um if they did have comments the fire department we would absolutely address them and we would make it exactly how they want but they didn't have any comment I understand the fire department can't make an official decision until after the final design is approved is that not the case no so do you have a statement from the fire department that shows yes it was they have the statement that says no comments and it's written right on the paper no comments so are you familiar with Morris plain's ordinance chapter 13 article rep 414 that describes fire zone requirements uh for Land Development don't you have to comply with that code apparently not if the fire department in N could you please get a specific response to that for the next meeting from the fire department in writing we have it in writing from fire department review the plans and confirm they don't have any incomings I I'll I'll hop in I'm not t at all all applications all s plan application go to the police department and to the fire department and to the extent that there is anything in the record that be spot he didn't testify as to it but I'm sure that um anything that would be in in the record we have a copy of it next mon but they all go and uniformly one of the conditions whenever the board votes is you always have to comply with whatever whatever the police department wants and whatever the fire department wants that that's always that's always are you familiar with this fire regulation is anybody familiar here with it because one person I understand please let me speak there's only one person you can ask questions still the expert so is there can you kindly look into that fire regulation because it discusses fire zone requirements for Land Development I'm not a fire expert your fire department is and they're okay with it the way it is okay can can we get the official statement from the fire department because we don't have record of that it's in the record it was it was issued by the fire department it's available to you you can send a request and to get a copy of it and we'll bring a copy next meeting you have it Josh let me see that please Josh has everything he's amazing this is a uh letter dated June 7th 2024 this is from burrow of Morris Plains um and I'll read it to the record um in accordance with Section 13- 6301 of the Land Development ORS the above listed application is being sent to your office for report and recommendation so you wish to comment on this application please reply to this office by June 21 2024 it is addressed to Mr Phil wil fire code sub Fire subcode official or Morris Plains and then Mr wil writes on this document reviewed six 1124 no comments and then he signed it that's the record it says review but this is not the final design correct so no listen it's you're going to have to ask the fire chief this says no comments when land use lingo they have no comments no comments to the application no recommendations you know pursuing to code whatever they didn't he just said no comments to us that's a clean bill of health but if you have follow-ups by all means contact the fire okay and if we do that bring that into next meeting with the planner pres that's acceptable in terms of process I'm gonna hop in Mr probably was too indulgent questions go to the witness that's it he didn't testify about uh fire you can ask him anything you want on his testimony of the report but yeah please let me speak and if you want to bring in anything if you want to have an expert or if you want to bring in and I and I mean this truthfully if there is something for you to bring to the board's attention when it's time for you to give testimony by all means do but you can only ask witness what he did testify to and what isn't report okay thank you that questions R RS 24 I'm curious about how many food delivery drivers anticip this location I don't have that break down does anybody that have that I don't know the more the better those uberit drivers are picking up multiple ers traffic off the road and taking parking need too respectfully disagree also thinking about speed and time and get into the next delivery uh do you know the geographic delivery area for this location for the GRE driver because I'm and the reason I asked that question is I think that's attracting tra to the I don't know at Peak time um how if I'm traveling Southbound on Speedwell app and I want a Happy Meal how long would I have to wait to make a left turn into H property that left turn movement is about 10 seconds away that's times got my Happy Meal now at Peak time how long would it take me to Exit the site and return South to make the left out the worst PE uh it's 47 seconds on average might take you a minute or might take you no time but the average be 47 seconds I know you've studied vehicle traffic but you did you take into consideration or generate any estimates on how many children from the school across the street will walk to the site believe it's an elementary school please please let one person speak of a Time court reporter you need to have one person I appreciate it thank you go ahead it's an elementary school so presumably they'd be walking with their parents to the McDonald's but the it statistics I testified to the last time said about 10 pedestrian trips in an hour for our store of this size not necessarily all coming across the street but 10 walkers from the area change if you were aware that it was a elementary and middle school no it's not my analysis it's the it analysis um I'd like some specifics on the uh signal system on the relocated crosswalk What specifically that looks like what the duration is for a pedestrian to be a to cross while that flashes sure it's um similar I'm sorry to interrupt you do you have any any drawings or any specific it's in the site the the drawings are in the materials that we submitted so they're available for your review if you'd like to go see okay what they look like go ahead do I mean describe it yeah it's similar you see The Pedestrian Signs Now they're now it's a yellow um diamond shaped sign turn walking same type of sort of sign as that with an arrow down the crosswalk is but there's two black bars that have LED lights in them totally dark normally when you get to the crosswalk and you went across you push a button and those Flash and you get the attention of drivers that hey somebody's trying to cross the street and and do you have any any data can you refer us to any efficacy studies on how effective those yeah the Federal Highway Administration put out a fact sheet on them I actually printed it because I thought that would be interesting but they're they increas rates by up to 98% so drivers are supposed to stop for pedestrians but they may not necessarily see the little orange flags that you guys have there now they're going to see these flashing lights this wider crosswalk that's got to be lit to certain standards it's going to be the the state-of-the-art unsignalized crossing and can you submit your studies that we would be able to review the statistics that you have are based on Federal high it's the Federal Highway registration you can just Google it that's what I did thank you Lisa schroer 97 Maple Avenue had some followup questions just to um your questions about the the it and their their methodology so exactly how does the account for the proximity of a school to this site I think I heard you just say that they take into account only the size of the building and the nature of the use is that right corre okay so what data points when my general understanding about the it calculations is that you're plugging in some variables and it's spitting out these uh Tri generation estimate so what are the variables that you plug in other than the size of the building and the nature of the use for for this particular that it's the size of the building and the use that's it okay is it true that much of the data underlying those it estimates is voluntarily submitted by volunteers Yeah by Traffic Engineers and is it true that some of that dat is quite old even from like the 1980s and 1990s and does that affect your confidence in the trip generation estimates yeah I mean we've we've done our own in this area and find that the I numbers are too high but so you're not controlling for any local realities of our town not even the the size of our population or the number of that are cutting through our town no I looked at the worst case scenario the full it numbers even though I think the reality will be listeners and it's another way of being conservative like I mentioned before to account for variations in traffic F so the numbers that are getting used to calculate the trip generation estimates for our area are pulled na wide are they also pulled internationally Nationwide there might be some in Canada data points of North America okay so observations and and data about what happened say in monana is going to be carried over and applied to what we could expect here in New Jersey yep that's why I pushes the numbers High a lot less uh Transit and cabs and uats in Montana what do you think gives a better indicator of what we could expect in terms of cars entering and exiting this site the it trip generation estimates that are informed by this very old and general data that's not informed by our region characteristics or actual numbers that could be provided by McDonald's based on its experience running 14,000 restaurants in the United States I think the numbers provided by McDonald's would be more accurate but as Traffic Engineers were bound to use the higher numbers from the it again being conservative the population is not a variable did you conduct any interview anyone that's familiar with the local driving habits and Norms of our area no so you simply relied on two hours of traffic counts for each time period that was evaluated yes did it occur to you to generate data for a time that would um overlap with School dismissal no because the traffic at McDonald's during school dispos over much lower again I'm not looking at I'm not analyzing speed avue I'm analyzing this McDonald's but don't you think that given that the school actually has students up through 8th grade would you think that that would increase the number of pedestrians that you counted it it it probably might and that's why we're making these big improvements to pedestrian Crossing to make it safer I think he's he's just for the future Witnesses he's testified about the school pedestrians and the um any increase a couple times now so so the it rates do not account for the new luxury apartments that being built on 10 or any other development the it rates no how would you confirm that the 2% growth rate was appropriate view of our local circumstances it's it's published by New Jersey DOT by county and roadway type okay but is there any calculus that goes into evaluating whether you should apply a higher growth rate given our local development yes that's why we ask if there's any specific local developments that are being built in the immediate that would have an impact we would want to account for them when there's not but I think I read in your report that you you uded that there are no developments okay I didn't include it those to the per okay okay so there wasn't any um information given to you about the new apartments that are being constructed on rout 10 or the new affordable housing that's coming he's answered that question making sure can you give an example of what would a higher growth rate if New Jersey do changed the numbers which they actually did recently it was lower if I did this study a year ago it 1% R you said before that these trip Generations are are averages right that was your explanation for collecting data on one day over the span of two hours right um and you said that that's just an aage two different things the the it numbers are at the average Peak so the busiest hour at several in this case I just look it's 96 different fast food restaurants that looked at the busiest hour the average of the busiest hour of all those okay so with the understanding that this is just the average and I think you concluded that it's a level of service e on Saturday yeah right um what how much margin is there between that level and level of service F in this three three more seconds 50 seconds is an f and this is a 40 second but that's that's why we do the other that's why we at the queing the Gap studies because we going to test every possible scen you consult with members of the Morris Plains Traffic Safety Committee to better understand our local traffic conditions no and your study doesn't account for the McD McDonald's corporate strategy or increasing delivery and drive-thru are you aware of the crosswalk enforcement stud that was performed by our local police officer on August 27th during which it stopped 42 Motor Vehicles for failing to yield the pedestrians and during which it observed over 100 violations that it could not but could not stop all of them I did see that if you had been aware of that study would that have impacted your conclusions it did that's why the crosswell here that's why we're putting the the week for trying to fix that um I thought that was a do recommendation recommendation because of that study and we do has to allow us to do it as their Road and they were in favor of it not to be redant can you explain the the inconsistency between the I don't know if you said 710 and somebody said 700 to 800 I can't keep track what but we have this this range of expected transactions a day the 710 is the number of cars okay the 700 to 800 is transactions so you know some people are going to walk they won't take a car some people have three people on a car that each make a separate transaction so fits right in have you attempted with whoever is The Keeper of the information from McDonald's have you attempted to square that with H for Testimony in another planning board hearing in Illinois that the average McDonald's does a th000 transactions today that may be the case in average with true okay this one would be less than the average at at 7800 what you project this you said that I'm not asking you to testify about every single one of the 31 sites that you studied that you didn't mention that that's part of your expertise is understand traffic patterns would you say comparing this site to those 31 would you expect this site to be below average yes in the business that it transacts yes so there was um sort of school safety that was considered in your in your report right he's he's been asked that a couple times even tonight he was ask that do you think that the increased usage of app based delivery orders can be to drive up the the traffic counts beyond what it would predict he was just asked that by the last person up with the microphone that's hard to hear okay that's fine just you testified at the last hearing about the ordinance excluding trums from Dayton and you gave a testimony about how that ordinance would be interpreted how it's written I mean it specifically says that in so many words local are exemp it sounded to me like it was a legal interpretation and I guess I just wanted to be sure that the scope of your expertise here is for traffic not as a legal expert is that correct cor yes that's it and did I mean did you consult with your attorney on the proper legal interpretation of of that ordinance I'm not his attorney and if I was as attorney I'd instruct them not to answer that but I'm not as a so he was giving his opinion as a traffic engineer he was not rendering a legal opinion I can assure you of that so you don't have any understanding of the underlying drivers of of that ordinance or what were the the concerns being managed I just were you made aware of the 2011 traffic study that was conducted I believe for Handover Avenue no of the I just want to ask about the Chad and Morris Town stores are are those stores where you took data I'm sorry in chadam Madison and morrist town are those any of the sites where you collected your data no none of those are I think at the last meeting you talked about um if there's a que into speed well a car that wants to park could just pull in is there room for it for that to happen if people are waiting in line on to speed well for the drivethru and somebody says well I want to go in but I'll park actually rooms to accommodate that or if there's a queue is entry completely blocked it would depend how they were stacked up could be blocked and is it typical that McDonald's doesn't share its business information with with its experts that might be relevant to the expert don't answer that that's not a question for him I think on multiple McDonald's applications he's not going to testify about McDonald's internal policies about sharing information he doesn't work for McDonald's thank you Lauren cama c m last name 12 lindbur Lane Mars Plains in the traffic study testimony last week you mentioned uh you only shared data about just a handful of traffic accidents in the in the last year on speed Avenue for that Speedwell Corridor did your study consider how much traffic would be diverted to mountaine drive Len Road Hill Avenue sty Avenue or Gran Avenue to accommodate the additional volume okay did your also revealed that there were over 300 traffic accidents in Mars Plains last year no I I asked for this specific location okay so how will this anticipated volume of over 700 customers a day turning in and out of the proposed property help the Mars Plains Police Department to achieve their goal of reducing traffic accidents to under 200 per year it will help by eliminating driveway Avenue less access points by adding a do not block the box of Da Lo which will help and by providing a much better pedestrian Crossing so all safety improvements are being made okay so primarily you'd be concerned about the ability for customers to turn in and out of McDonald's is that what you're saying in terms of just that immediate surrounding area it would add an element of safety is that is that your statement yes okay not related to any traffic being diverted to other streets correct I don't see my traffic would be to bur dular streets okay so in addition to the new crosswalk and solutions that you're proposing to mitigate danger for the high volume of pedestrian traffic not only Crossing across feal Avenue but also just using the sidewalks in that area at peak times in the school schedule um are you aware that in other towns where drive-throughs were placed in heavy pedestrian areas some towns requireed local police to stand on duty to direct traffic I have never counted that situation in New Jersey um has this type of solution been discussed with the Mars PLS Police Department to your knowledge they they've reviewed and gave us comments that we've Incorporated in the plans so there are no just to clarify there are no discussions with Mor plan's police about additional oversight during school hours of the sidewalks in the area no to supplement the crossroad no at the last meeting you shared your traffic study looked into the current wait time to turn onto speed Avenue from d Road did your study assess the wait time on East hanor during peak hours to turn onto speedr Avenue and the backup's there okay or the wait time to enter downtown moris PLS from Littleton Avenue okay how will the presence of a drive-through restaurant with these volumes and during this portion of speed well Avenue impact the current weight times in those areas coming from East CH road we coming from Littleton Avenue very live far away do you have data on that to you just mentioned you didn't study those weight times you have data to backup yeah typically you get concerned about an impact and I mentioned this the last year an impact on an intersection that experiences aund or more additional trips those intersections there's other places for people to turn off they're going to split 50/50 up and down speed well Avenue so the traffic from this McDonald's is so deluded by the time it gets there it's not even close to that thank you thank you Pam dice d i s e o r n Seven Hill View Avenue um I just want just like two sentences about me because I feel like this is not human a lot of things I'm a teacher at burough school and I live on Hill Avenue so I can see the site my front yard when I step outside so this is one reason why it's very important to and I'm tra je traffic and not get emotional I know right anyway so yeah no I walk I walk my daughter used to my car to go to high school so anyway but um so and I'm going to clarify for things but this is all new to me so as a teacher and especially getting through the pandemic we experienced a lot of like policy versus actual practice but just to confirm that with the policy like the gentleman here was saying that you're required to look at site traffic not Area traffic is that what he said for the land usage like that the it's predisposed to say that if it's an allowed use the town is already saying that they don't care about the area traffic it's just that block like do you look at I don't think that they're saying they don't care about it but the presumption is that the town permitted this use because the traffic can handle we're not asking to put something here that generates more traffic than the town say okay but that's so that's on okay so that's on that and then um so just to terms of me like I'm a cut through Street H you people cut through back and forth one way you know like we're the ones who would absorb some of that flyby traffic and extra parking and anything like that all right so and just to confirm you had said the growth rate you used was 2% yes and that's an indust because it's an industry standard so it does it just I know this has been said before this doesn't all particularly like higher growth in this area it's just what you use because of policy it's it's New Jersey do New Jersey New Jersey standard okay um and and then again just to confirm there's no just this is worded differently and I don't understand all the stuff the local development plan zoning changes the addition of 160 plus low-income housing none of that gets incorporated into your study it it does it's part of that growth rate part of growth all right um did you account for and and how did you account for public transit usage in your projection I didn't I ass what was driving I didn't take any credits for people taking the might do that in an urban area but but I feel like with the parking comments weren't they saying that they assumed they thought that a lot of the employees might take public trans get T and that's why you didn't need as much parking that's not what I said but that's that's the reality of McDon feel like I've been here for a lot of hours meting so I thought I heard that okay um did you account for the potential impact of Telecom meting or remote work trends like people working from home and then leaving in the middle of the day to get out for lunch like a higher number you know out lunch the lunch time doesn't that's why you don't do anything lunch time doesn't doesn't have a trend of peeking any thead McDonald's will have a Peak at lunch time and speed well is not as busy at lunch time I haven't observed that but I'm L of traffic from my house the school I I have Ober pretty busy um and I know the 3 P.M things been mentioned but the kids go yeah anyway I had to ask a question okay um had do navigation systems with restaurant suggestions affect your trip things like GPS like and Maps what they're looking for at the near by a restaurant does that factor into the studies no I can't my hand but I think I think that's what I thanks thank you Craig r s Hillview Avenue I know you people have asked a lot of questions regarding the traffic signal just a quick question for you uh there's no if someone goes through the traffic way uh there's nothing traffic like they're not technically breakable law there's no ticket being issued for that if someone does that like is there there is there a ramification for that failure to yield to a pedestrian in crosswalk is against the law no okay my my question is um so as I said I'm a hill view right across the street uh this morning walking back to my house from dunking donuts there was a guy coming across the street with the flags in hand like halfway through the street I was getting ready to walk into the street and there was a box truck coming guy looking down at his phone didn't see me didn't see him just flew right through the the intersection if someone standing right in the middle of an intersection is not going to prevent someone from going through the intersection how necessarily is a traffic light down two stops from well that's exactly theide the guy looking down at his phone has as you can seeed a little orange flag but when something starts flashing it catches their attention that's the idea um and at last meeting in this meeting you made multiple references to like a typical business day or typical we week day and you have your set time for two hours in the morning two hours in the afternoon I understand that those where industry standards are said correct the times that were used um is there anything and you said one day is typical for the study to be used one day actual counts we'll visit the location a multiple times during peak hours and I have had enough experience that I can tell if the encounters traffic boms are not consistent with what I'm seeing but the actual data collection is just one so for this one there was someone was there on other days as well to do it in addition to the one day where it was in the traffic report I personally have been many times for bit traffic conditions okay but in terms of something being presented as evidence it's just the one day correct correct okay if it's one day out of five for two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon have you ever used more than one day in when doing an actual written document traffic report yeah for things that generate a lot of traffic we occasionally have to do more requires uh the the two counts the 24hour counts for things to generate enough traffic that they be concerned about so not prior to your issuing the traffic report Did You observe other days that you just that were not included in the report yeah I yeah I've been to the site several times and working up the plans of this every every uh night we've been here I I go in the evening just check things out times why wouldn't that be submitted into the report as further documentation to help to prove the validity or the legitimacy of traffic I didn't you do data colle okay so answer my question thank you hi Stephanie Carr c a r r 33 MW Avenue in Mars Plains mat please clarify that peak hours for you are the standard McDonald's peak hours and not based on research of comings and going of the local community no they're based on road General roadway B hours General New Jersey DOT has an extensive traffic counting program throughout the state and P um have you taken into account large influxes of pedestrians in the area um at what McDonald's may not consider peak hours or what the do may not consider PE gers attempting to cross speed well at that crosswalk um from after school sporting events at Burrow and also from Simons Park which is straight down from Hill viw yeah absolutely that those beacons will work 24 hours a day not just a CS okay um so to sort of um add on to that you testified just earlier this evening that traffic speeds were not pertinent to the traffic study um and then you're saying the crosswalk will be seen the blinking lights um I'm not a traffic expert um but would you agree that speed is generally pertinent to the safety of a crosswalk like the rate of speed that people travel sure so um I'm just curious why speed was not accounted for in your tragic study we're not the crossb is there we're making it better we're not adding cross if I was doing a study to say should I add a new Crossroad some place T right well it's been moved and it's also sure yeah you know being moved to serve a new facility so um and I'm curious since the last meeting I think this was asked of you at the last meeting but have personally attempted to cross on foot that crosswalk speed no somebody asked me that the last one I was just thinking of the times I've been out there I don't think I'm actually walked across you might want to try to do that Jill C CC out of your I believe you said 31 traffic studies locations in the area have any of them ever concluded that add whatever the proposed building was would be a negative impact these these McDonald's no all of these McDonald's were done because they have a single drivethru Lane that we were converted to a double drivethru lane of the thousands of traffic studies I've done have I ever made recommendations to offset negative impacts yeah sure the final is always going to say that everything works because we did this this and this I'm not going to I'm going to tell my Cent they do problem an ideal location because of the traffic in any of those places yeah sure that's happened oh yeah and we make recommendations for what they would need to do okay um keep on referencing the beacons and making it safer it's my understand that the beacons were coming regardless um into town Council meetings I know that this was something in place it's the moving of the crosswalk that's coming because the result of proposed McDon yes but the beacons have they will come regardless yeah I don't he's not the well he continually says that we're improving with the beacons and that clearly is a a McDonald's improv um doesn't come they're still coming and doll isn't pay for it exactly so they get PID for it and you st that the traffic study is not only the traffic study on Avenue but it's also flow on site of the traffic yeah I'm looking at how this corner is going to operate primarily with the McDonald's there right but the the flow of the traffic within the site is also part of the traffic study yeah oh yes sorry I understand um I just I know probably going to get cut off but is there a distance is in design where the delivery truck would come and the drivethru is that curving or is that just a grassy area like how does it differentiate the drive-thru Lanes towards the back of the building and the free flowing traffic that people want to go and parking par is not volume it's what you ask I'm sorry the drivethru lanes is there some kind of barrier that separates them from the free flowing traffic like the yellow one oh they just uh they're striping and they're uh made of concrete pavement texture will look different there's no physical so if you're in the drivethru and you decide you don't want to go through the drivethru you could easily just exit it's just La top and what is the distance between the drive and the back parking lot space like beginning of the parking lot spaces and that last Drive the drive right basically where the is what is that distance 20 20 ft that's 20 ft and and and the delivery trucks I understand from my research and maybe I'm wrong are about the of 8 and2 ft and then if a car wants to get by an average car 6 and 1 12 to 7 ft no average car is 5 and 12 to 6 feet I'm sorry average SUV which seems to be only acoss 7t passenger 7t is a h we've been over this one a bunch of times yeah I have the numbers I know I asked a similar question I didn't have the numbers of the distance and I'm just really concerned or if a bus comes through and realizes they can't I just the space I just don't see it but I'll let that and the average they were saying saying 710 um cars customers per day and then Mr came in at the last meeting after was Consulting with a representative McDonald said 7 to 800 was was that representative transactions I transaction I'm sorry who was that representative they in I got he's giving num please please the only opportunity have you can argue later long you're not allow the question Mr has to go to the witness testimony anything Mr pleas please I just felt please but but you're not listening it has to be questions to the witness okay I has to be questions to this witness he's not a witness ask me questions cross examination to this person okay I apologize what if he could inter again again it has to be questions so the 710 you said was a number that you came up with with your study and then McDonald's just agreed with that the the it projections that I and have they ever been have the it numbers been wrong before yeah they're always too high thank you so so all mics are off all phones are off okay yeah the official ch [Music] [Music] for e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] we [Music] it [Music] [Music] [Music] yeah [Music] [Music] for for [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] days [Music] Tech [Music] that's [Music] [Music] sh [Music] Mak [Music] know [Music] [Music] yes know [Music] said [Music] [Music] s Ang Le 126 there was made that we have no right to consider traffic since this is a use that's permitted is that correct uh I don't know agree with Journeys that are here but uh yes uh and but it comes to this way and it bees minute and a half to explanation when a governing body changes zoning or does the zoning they decided some should be residential some should be commercial some should be manufacturing part of that consideration takes into Camp what are going to be the impacts of those uses obviously everyone here is talking impact of a use can be trafficed so the courts have said the decision on a permitted use on what uses should be permitted necessarily includes the governing body's decision that the traffic will be okay they decided it planning board has owned jurisdiction planning board that denied an application because of the estimate of the increased traffic will generate will be denied will be reversed every single time by Court you you do not have this board does not have jurisdiction or power to deny a an application based upon increased traffic of committed use that's that's the the simple One cases that made that just to Circle back about the um school buses or any kind of buses I know you said that they cannot be accommodated in there but is there going to be any type of signage or any way to actually prevent them from turning in and the reason I think we're all asking this is because we know what goes on at Central Park where the where the tournaments and the fields are and dozens and dozens of buses on any given day are coming there are coming down Handover Avenue from there so what will be done to make sure that that doesn't that they don't try to turn in and then jam up everything I if a bus pulls in there there's no bus parking on the side they can physically Traverse obviously because tr's no place have so are be encouraged to or discouraged from turning in will there be signage will there be you know no buses permitted anything like that I don't know why a bus driver would assume that this is the only B that I've ever seen that has bus to a couple different highways probably to be getting so so is every McDonald's in 14,000 in the country so they never seen can you can let him finish please I've never seen a McDonald's Bus Parking I don't know why a bus driver would assume that this one had any so there's nothing to discouraged if they turn in they turn in they can jam up a lot even further no they would they can circulate through we wouldn't jam up a lot but there's no concessions nothing that will be done to prevent that disc we could signage we want to know bu sign yeah I'm sure we can do that I don't think do would allow that but sure and then with regard to um orders that are in fulfilled in like the whatever the amount of time they're supposed to be and they're asked to pull over to the side where does that happen and how does that affect the flow of the driver it's the it's these spaces usually after the last window are certain ones that are just assigned just for that purpose or are they shared with like the delivery and the other things they're numbered I don't know if they're you know they could be shared but you know the person at the window can look over and see space number one or two or three is available so can you just explain how that works so you pull your order is not ready in time you're told to pull them into one of those spots over there and first of all where where would they be when they'd have to pull into one of those at what point are they told that at the pickup window which window well depending on if they're using the third window not one of these two windows where they pick up the food depending on the time of day so are they going to be able to get one of those spots sure they're not already pass them no front under your cars here you can get into this spot from this window you can get into the first four times and then someone how does it work does someone come out of store and bring their food and they have to cross through yeah somebody Runs Out down so how often does that usually happen no no data on that at all is that something we could just we're just trying to how many spots would be taken up oh it's it's very the goal is I'm sure for McDonald's for it to never happen when you know things happen so you can have many it's more so if somebody has a very large order and them people but sometimes it's so if they just hypothetically haveen to be filled up and then door Dash or whoever comes and those are their spots too right those same spots so where do they are they where are they are they going to be just like pulled up on the side are they allowed to par in any of the other spots delivery those spots inside that are resered for the and I mean theoretically they can park in any space I think anybody's notice it yeah well they would have to actually come around right yeah those are this has become a typical layout for McDonald's so presumably the door Dash people kind know Park and those numbers for door Dash or any kind of delivery in are all part of the transaction number okay rest of my questions were asked so thank you thank you Carl R dating road to 22 days Road um so you talked a little bit about some of the RO and things you guys are taking into account just out of curiosity in addition to kind of light up roadway cross is there anything else in your expert opinion should be done to make that crosswalk safer there's nothing else at a time there's no other types of crosswalk controls that would make it safer than the light up there are other techniques that can that out there but this is the the latest fat call gu this there was please let him let him finish please let him finish okay second pause then go this is the most favorite tool in the tool box right now for this type of crossb but there's nothing else that could be placed there that would make it safe not even an additional stop light no you can't you can't put a you mean like a signal like to stop the Cars R now that wouldn't be warranted you have to have a certain amount of traffic volume turning volume to war a traffic signal or a certain amount of pedestrian volume and this is not even close plus that would be not very good for Speed having traff my question was is there something that could be done beyond what you're proposing to make that Crossing safer he answered that a couple times your answer to my question about whether or not a signal would be a safer solution was that that's not going to happen I'm asking you the question would that be safer no having a dedicated signal like would not make it safer to cross the street I got to that it's the question the answered it has to move on at some point he to keep on arguing going I I understand the point and we do but it has yeah I just yeah I was curious honesty of answer relevant but okay I can explain if You' like when you add a tra that's what I'm here for you're the expert when you add a traffic signal you create rear end accidents that aren't happening here now so for the 8 to 10 pedestrian Crossings at this location would it be easier for them stopped all traffic and created Mir ends I guess but that's not safer in my opinion I've lived at my house for four years how many times do you think I've almost been that crosswalk I have no idea take a guess I'm not going to guess has to ask questions on what his testimony was not other hyp right well thanks a lot guys I'll let you Joan Camp place um as long we on the crosswalk I sck with PA what would be would it be safer to move the crosswalk on the other side of the Box on the other side because I know I live on handfield which is down at the end of dayon and I've lived on that street for 50 years and I know the traffic very well know that I'm a traffic expert on that so ask let me answer the question you're not supposed to be testified no but I'm asking him about moving the cross because if you go out to date but but you didn't he has to you asked the question would it be better to move it please allow him to answer that okay the crosswalk is crossing at Hillview Avenue it was put there for a reason presumably the school I don't know we're putting it in the best location at Hill moving into a completely different location be whole different study that I guess the do but this is where they asked us to put it they asked us to ask NJ if it was okay everybody's agreed this is but in your opinion people that are coming out dating and making a left are trying to make that Gap and trying to keep their eye on crosswalk that's like x amount of when they're trying to make the left and then people are crossing it's a lot to keep looking at if the crosswalk was on the other side it seems to me it would be easier to left without hitting somebody but okay my second question we spent a lot of time on the queuing coming in from SP Avenue what about when you're done going through the drivethru you're going back out to exit on to speed and you said it takes dur PE Time 47 seconds approximately to get out at the speed and you're doing 60 to to 70 cars per hour how much is that going to back up into the queuing line and back up the whole Drive cill yeah he testified to that the last time we checked that 95th or Q length and the the weekday morning and evening is what about one car it's math calculation so it's 1.1 and 0.9 purposes one and on the Saturday which again I testify that I think we have a big overestimate of the numbers but even with that it's two cars two cars two cars 95% of the time will be two or when you're doing 70 per hour and there's 47 seconds which I think a ltimate to make turn you're only going to have two cars backed up to go out out it's mathematically calculated opinion okay also um is there any consideration from McDonald's that's over in Cedar that's not a drivethru the people that would have been going there that are now come to the drive McDonald's consideration for that I I think the people who were doing that already passed the site and we'll be happy that there's a McDonald's here I testified the last time these are convenience there's McDonald's all over the place there's plenty of them around you don't necessarily go out of your way especially during peak hours go Ms so the 710 cars a day the 70 in in the hour most of them are already driving on speed well Avenue anyway they're just going to turn in and out of theonics but there are going to be people that will go out of their way to use the drive through I done that also um okay you said that um the traffic wouldn't impact any of the side streets in your opinion they would just beable and dispers that affect the side streets for two reasons again they were dispersed and because they they would have already been on speed well impacting all those side streets my question is what about the people that want to go out Dayton or go out and make a left hand turn what's going to stop them from going out making a right hand turn on the spe then a right hand turn on to Dayton going down around going out to the traffic light to make their left through residential residential area nothing there public Ro any I've done it about a dozen times when I've been here you'd have to know you'd have to know that you could do it you'd have to know the area hello my Isn and I live hello my name is Carolyn Bennett and I live at 19 Dayton Road um I have a question it's not necessarily about what you testified on but your name is traffic expert in the application am I allowed to ask that question okay um on the last page when it says variances design labor thought and justification for SE under number two there's a whole thing about the variance that the applicant is asking for in terms of the size of the parking spaces and it says that 9 by 18 parking stalls are an acceptable size and width for this use and as our traffic expert will and then there's nothing so I was just wondering what's the rest of that sentence and what are you going to do we that testimony has already been provided by the side engineer at 9 by 18 spaces as the standard Department St size throughout the country sorry can you say that again I can hear you the stand parking stall size throughout the country 9 by8 is a typical size parking St okay so the rest of that sentence should say that as a traffic expert will testify there's nothing else I was just doing my due diligence to make sure I wasn't missing anything okay thank you um in terms of the crosswalk since that seems to be the talk the topic that we're on um in any of your traffic studies I'm sure you looked at lots of crosswalks have you ever seen data around a enhancements for crosswalks no not yet I'm sure that's coming it it is and I know there are some companies that are working on it but I know this isn't my place to share that so I guess is that something that's being considered for the dot application because it sounds like you guys are trying to bring something great to this town that we're already not getting with the grant that's already been given to our town got got to ask the question you're I did I I asked him if that's something that he's considered okay and let him ask let him okay no I haven't considered an AI crosswalker I don't know what that is but and that's not part of the do application that you've testified about last time no can you elaborate a little bit more on the do application process because I'm not wrapping my head around if they don't move forward with the things that you guys have outlined here what me for it sounds like nothing has been officially signed by the do and app so I guess like what happens let's say this gets approved or whatever like what happens when you go back to the do to finalize the plans is there is there a way that they say oh actually like we're not going to let you guys we're not going to let McDonald's move the crosswalk and extend it and add the weekend is it is it possible I suppose but that's why we had the pre-operation meeting to make sure that that wouldn't happen but Anything Could Happen yeah they it's their Road okay I think that's good to know um in the 31 other McDonald's I think that's what you said last time that you've worked on 31 other McDonald's applications well probably more than that the 31 where I had compiled the data have any of were there exceptions to variances asked in those applications every single one of them I can't think of an application that didn't have this one variance was there any of those other 31s that you any other of those 31 locations that you talked about um were they met with a public hearing such like this or is this the first time that this is this crowd and then doing this process with you most of them don't have PR on to so the size I I I'm going to have to H it it has to be what he did testify to not descriptions on things that happen it has to be the testimony I here okay I'm specifically talking about the 31 other applications that you talked about at talking about the number people show up in another me that's not I'm I'm trying that's not that's anything here on this site fair game absolutely Fair okay um so back to the variances to the ordinance that are on the application when you stay that the um parking spaces that are being asked for are standard can you elaborate how that works with a car that's parked with both of their doors open I don't know the lengths of cars I think you just said it was typically like 5 to 7t wide the a 9t wide by 18t deep parking space is the standard designed to accommodate parking Vehicles endorsements every Park 95% of the parking lots that you park in every day that's the size of the PES why is it that the bur of Morris cleans requires a different size one probably depends on when they made that suggestion because years ago back in the 70s there was a trend of very large cars so people want to be spaces but that trend is reversed okay now they just get taller the they not getting wider yeah no when I'm pregnant it's very difficult for me to get my kids down out of the car but neither here nor there um regarding the semi truck that you testified about and it's up on the screen as a traffic expert and tell me now do you know how these semi trun typically weigh when they're empty or when they're full of their delivery um as a traffic expert do you know how long it takes one of these car one of these semi- trucks to come to a complete stop going 30 m an hour sorry can you repeat that don't no I don't who would I be able to ask that question to because I think that's really important this application and I would I would suspect it would be the traffic expert well we don't we don't necessarily agree I don't think it's real of it okay if back to the crosswalk then if someone is trying to cross the crosswalk and there's a semi Tru coming isn't it important to know how long that truck needs to stop before they run that person over yeah and that's that's called stopping sight distance I know those standards and we're meeting those standards placement and visibility is the stopping sight distance which you just quoted different from a car than to a semi truck I'm a little lost than how we don't know how long it takes a semi truck to stop out a cross it's not it's not a time you ask the time I don't know the time but there's distances that are met in order to satisfy the traffic stop it's called stopping safe distance every driving on it has to have it so there's a vehicle front that stops you don't run back of it so curves and vertical curves horizontal curves and visibility to anything that might make you stop with a cross so does a heav yeah and I I look into that does a heavier vehicle take longer to stop presumably yes okay um and also regarding the semi truck that's up on the screen I This falls under your purview are there blind spots to a tractor trailer that are considered at all when we're drawing up a diagram like this yeah that make sure that there's visibility and safe access in and out of the site yeah that's all taken into consideration we provide all that so if there's somebody that's on the sidewalk walking up for last better words from Dayton so like from my house would we fall in the blind SP of delivery truck that's pulling out onto our residential street no can you elaborate more on on how that's not an issue we we can't roads can't be designed that way you have to have visibility there's nothing blocking the visibility in this area is there going to be a stop sign where that tractor trailer is waiting before it turns left onto Dayton there is one now so no the tractor trailer that's leaving the parking lot yeah there's a stop sign here for him to stop here to look both ways it's coming out on the table and then there's an existing stop sign well there should be it might have got knocked over but there should be an existing stop sign so at the first stop sign that you say is already there if the tractor trailer is stopped there can you elaborate on the blind spots of that tractor trailer it doesn't he has a sufficient visibility looking left and right to see oncoming traffic I'm not speaking about oncoming traffic I'm talking about the fact that it's on a sidewalk where my kids walk and other pedestrians and I want to know if the sidewalk right next to the tractor trailer is a concern that there could be a kid there and he doesn't see it I'm not talking about the the blind spot on the road I'm talking about the blind spot of the actual vehicle on the sidewalk that's running into it he not going to drive on this trucks don't drive on the sidewalk I'm not sure I understand the question I'm going to try to reir my question again if the tractor trailer stopped coming out of McDonald to make a left it has to stop at a stop sign is the stop sign placed before this pedestrian sidewalk or after before and as a traffic expert all vehicles stop before the stop sign we've never seen Vehicles creep up Hollywood stop that's not a thing no you stop at the stop sign if there's a pedestrian Crossing which you can see if there's not then of course you creep out and improve your visibility so you just said that there's a pedestrian coming yeah you're going to you're not going to you're going to stop behind the crosswalk if somebody's walking there's nobody walking and you you pull up to improve your visibility to turn left or right like every driveway in America okay um not every driveway in America I don't believe has semi- trucks driving out as well but it sounds like as a traffic expert what you think is normal thing um most many unsignalized intersections have trucks think of warehouses and things that have lots of trucks coming out this is one truck it's two per two per week two times per week this truck's going to be there that's it as a traffic expert how many times do you think a kid has to get hit by a truck in order for something bad to happen anytime a kid gets hit by a truck something bad happens that's why we design it to make sure that that's not going to happen Okay um um at 910 you spoke about how McDonald's is going to be paying the crosswalk optimizations that are being made but I'm really interested in learning more about the grant that the town has already been issued what Happ do we get that grant money back if the dot application that's not what he testify to he it has to be what he testified to not he didn't testify to the GRS okay it's got be what what's being built I said what what's being built absolutely fa and not my okay um to Enlighten us all specifically me a little bit more about being a traffic expert can you shut light on credibility specifically who back checks someone that is a traffic expert I have gentleman sitting right over there back check this one he was hired by your board to my work so there's always just one layer of fact checking that's done in that standard I I don't know traffic experts most of the time yes but in this case we'll have that second lay with the New Jersey do as well and when that happens when we go back to the do there is room that they can change anything that's been presented to the public today I actually I I address this too I do understand um kind of the concern but it's in probably every single site plan application involves a road invol environmental issues or Falls in neighboring property there are always several layers of approvals you have to get and you can't get the do and the county uh planning board uh and d and us all in the same room so it's uniformly in every application somebody one board has to say yes and then it gets that what's going to be done gets approved or confirmed or Changed by another entity if it gets changed then generally they have to go back that's that's just the nature of having so many regulatory bodies it one one body acts and the next acts on it if there's a significant change has to go back but that's that that I hope that answers that concern that that's happens in every application okay yeah it does I just want to it does um so listening to the traffic study I I'm following what data was looked at on May 1 do you take into consideration or can you share with us anything about the construction vehicles and impact traffic or that's not part of what the traffic expert looks at uh that that's looked at if this is approved at the building department and P building permits no it's not look fit at this time um when you say about the 7sec Gap is that what we're align that there's a 7c gap before people will turn on to speed the nationally collected research says that people wait for 7 second have to turn left but that also include a dump truck just picking a vehicle out of the air it's a Lar gap for a larger time for vehicles that are slower to accelerate which if you're designing something for just those Vehicles you might look at that this is designed for passenger vehicles and then are traffic studies done like so I understand the traffic study is done to show that this isn't going to have a huge impact on the current traffic that's running through the town is there anything ever done like after the fact or it's like oh I hope that what we shared was right depends on the circumstance for larger like I said for projects that generate a lot of traffic that actually are concerned with with regard to traffic there might be some layer of post traffic this is this is a small use generating not that much traffic than most of the traffic it's generating is already out in Ro today coming in and out so are there other mechanisms yes for something like this so there's no planed post study traic study that back too okay um in terms of the traffic that you've been testifying that's going to be coming to this McDonald's it's fair to say that you agree that it's people that already live here but most of them yes most of people already traveling by that's the point the reason McDonald's wants to be here is to capture some of that traffic on speed while out a good location for them um do you agree with the previous testimony from I think it might have been your not your Council the council that people are going to seeking this location I don't know what you guys call each other people are going to be seeking just thought about it when you said that I've lost my train of thought that's okay we have all night um so do you agree with what Mr Poo shared in his opening meeting that this location is going to be bringing in people who can't afford fancy restaurants all around the area yeah because that I see that as a contradicting fact what I didn't say that it would draw people in from other areas that is something you you seem to be concerned about I did not say that I didn't say it would draw people from other areas I said it's an affordable food option in your area you made that statement that it would drive drawing people from other areas I never seen that okay so next meeting or when the public contest I am I allowed to bring proof that you said that sure um I feel like we've talked a lot about the traffic pattern on speed well and how this isn't going to make a huge impact what I'm struggling with is people leaving McDonald's onto Dayton and they're only going to be making the left turn what how many cars back can that be before they can't weed the restaurant anymore how long would the que have to be on yeah eight eight car so that what happens in that situation when people leaving McDonald's try on Dayton Camp because there is a long que eight cars have you driven on Dayton in the morning trying to bring people to daycare eight cars there is pretty reasonable so I think it is a valid question I don't I don't see that happening uh they'd have to wait until Cube moved up and then turn out so then if they have to wait which is what you just said wouldn't that cause a back flow that could eventually pour out into blocking anything else that's up on the screen anything no how so I don't have any concern about that happening can you say that a little loud right I don't have any concern about that happening at all is that your opinion yes okay um and then something that you said today and last week was that you don't anticipate people wanting to wait for McNugget if they're trying to turn left off of speed Bel into the is that correct I'm sure I made the mcmug joke but I didn't think it was anything about making left the question that you're tra engineer asked is if there was a scenario where the drive was backed up what would likely happen and he agreed with me that likely you would bypass and go to a different McDonald or different restaurant or do something else rather than wait that long for chicken um where does that conclusion come from that people wouldn't wait that common sense just natural beh human behavior so you don't think that a mom with kids in her car and they can't afford all of the other restaurants that are around the area and they need to be dinner before practice or whatnot wouldn't want to turn left and get that meal sure they would but not that's not the question his question was if the drivethru is backed up to the street you're saying turning in May left yeah that's the problem no I'm saying it's back up and I need to get into that restaurant because I don't have another Choice my kids are hungry I don't have money to go to all of the other fancy places and I need to make that left into that drive-thru and I can't because it's backed up what is the what is the traffic flow than resulting from me waiting there trying to make a left be sitting there and people be going around you while you're waiting with your turn where on this diagram are people going to be going around me because I think that's something that we keep ask we keep asking and you keep joking about it and I say the word joke because you just said that word if a car is sitting at the W line waiting to ni left there is enough room to go around them for through traffic it happens all up and down speed well Avenue I sat out there for half an hour today watched it happen to the Dunkin Donuts a dozen times and what happens when that the traffic light is red and the cars are all the way back up and nobody can go through like this is going to create a bottleneck problem would it not no will not I don't know what else I can tell I think you seeing a doomsday scenario that's not reality so I don't see that as not being reality because this is my reality I live on the street do you maam ma'am it's got be question I just finished with do you he just said that this is a doomsday not reality and I'm asking him I am letting him know that it it is a reality that I can clearly lay out because I live there and my question is do you live there no I don't okay um really quickly last question so when you say that you've done this for many other McDonald's other I think you mentioned Chick-fil-A Popeyes Wendy's 31 other McDonald's that's correct this is not a new process for you correct okay I guess like are we annoying you because it seems like we are okay I just want to make sure I wouldn't want to do that thank you [Applause] M 91 Sun Valley Way um testifying thousands of uh traffic studies right um and you've testified a few times tonight he answered question regarding the safety including like that's why we designed truck exit that way for safety concerns so as part of your traffic study risk and safety concerns do they take that into consideration yes okay great so for this particular site and the design what are particular the projected rate of collisions or injuries based on vehicle B no zero zero and is that in is that in the traffic study any data study you looked at no we we design it for safety to avoid that from happening but I if I projected any injury or accident then I would the client chain so there's no data you said I'm sorry what what data do you rely on data and uh projections and modeling for your traffic study right yes so there's no data on projected rates of collisions rear end collisions in the Drive-Thru or pedestrian injuries or cross walk or walkway in in the drive there's zero data available on that yeah there's existing and I got it from your Police Department there's been three crashes in this part of speed Avenue in the past three years one of them is down to rosale Avenue and the other I'm please let please let him I'll listen to you tell me to wait for you to answer okay yes there's no substantial crash pattern here great I'm not asking about speedball I'm asking about is there any data on the volume of 700 plus cars open every day thousands of cars what data is available if any on the rate of collisions within the perimeter of the site or the entrance or exit of the site rear ending within the drive-thru or pedestrians being hit there's zero data available on that zero never been providing he's answered the question a couple times now I'm sorry no he answered the question about speed no I did and you testified and you asked questions last meeting of this witness sir that's no that's true this is an En new sub the attorney said that people who didn't who who were going to ask questions were those who didn't ask questions you were up here last meeting asking this witness questions that's all I'm saying I'm not looking to pick a fight with you great I'm just pointing it out and there's a precedent that there's about seven other folks so you've waved that to them so here I am asking questions okay my question is about within the perimeter of the building you you provided zero data on projecting injuries or collisions within the perimeter for your traffic side correct and as anybody on the board or the town asked you for any projected occurrence based on vehicle volume for anticipated accidents or injuries or collisions with a in no nobody's asked for that no and as an expert today can you say that no collisions occur ever in McDonald's youan you can that I'm sure collisions have occurred in McDonald's of course I'm sorry I couldn't hear you I'm sure collisions have occurred in McDonald's I can't say that no collisions have occurred in are you are you personally aware of any actual data or instances where collisions occurred within th I'm not no no okay so with that being an expert today can you project you are an expert on traffic and especially McDonald's with thousands of plans as an expert today you can opine or provide your professional opinion on let's talk so I could say one in 5,000 cars which is six seven days please please you have to stop board in me are the orbitor of kind of what you want you have to ask him what he has testified to his report can't create things that you want him to testify to you can ask me questions and if you have an expert at the end that will testify what you're talking about you're more than welcome to put him on but he didn't testify that he testified to safety earlier so I'm asking safety questions no he didn't testify to any of his crash T that's the point I I I understand as an expert I can't ask him if he has any knowledge or opinion on let's talk 20,000 vehicles on the rate of incidence of you have to you have to move on you have to okay regarding the your experience professional experience um 3 McDonald's is the number of locations that we're going to get information for so we can look at those traffic studies location you're not you're not getting the traffic studies we're giving traffic stud well let me finish we're going to give you the addresses and then we'll submit that list to the traffic engineer and you're more than welcome to obtain that information and do whatever you want with it great um those 300 um you testified earlier that McDonald's is moving towards um higher volume drive-throughs with two Ls and that's been a trend with reconstruction of McDonald's to rebuild them with two driving RS yes the 31 studies that you've done previously were those for new restaurants where a drive-thru restaurant previously did not exist or are they all renovations to existing drive-thru restaurants he's already answered that but go ahead you can answer the 31 that I'm referencing were obviously existing McDonald's that's how I was able to count them so yeah they were all Remar same so so none of those 31 include Rand new restaurants where there was not previously a drivethru restaurant how could possibly how could I count of McDonald's that didn't exist I mean you've never done a traffic study like this one where McDonald's didn't previously exist oh yeah I have but the 31 I'm referencing are ones that I counted the existing mcon okay so the 301 that you're going to be providing to the traffic engineer don't include any of the ones where there was not previously a McDonald's d what am I missing I don't understand what you're talking about I counted physical actual open McDonald's and that's the 31 that I'm talking right I'm asking about exist then how would that count okay in your experience how many I think what I'm looking for is to look at where there was not previously a McDonald's drive GP Right Where You conducted a traffic study and then so that we have an opportunity to look at the impact of that McDonald's after the traffic St oh so you want addresses of ground up McDonald's yes yeah I he's relying upon the information in his report so we're not going to produce any more information we're going to give you the 31 addresses but we're not going to keep providing names of McDonald's all over the country that are ground on McDonald's I mean he he he's testified about why he believes this is an acceptable uh location from a traffic and the parking perspective the board engineer has vetted it he has agreed with the methodology and the findings and so we're going to rely on that so we're not going to be continue to be producing all this other additional information if I I'll aim it at you what you're looking for information want to get applicants are not obligated to give it to you a conversation with the traffic near except anybody in this room might be able to generate that for you but you generally can't compel an applicant to give information that they're not relying on that's that's kind of a quick answer well I think the application relies on your experience right as a traffic engineer and your experience includes all of those McDonald you're the quick is you're allowed to ask him what his report on this and what's being built into an opinions about this just G I understand you might want to but if you want to go get other things that they've did an applicant is not obligated to give you that there're simply not but as a me of assessing their experience expertise you can go get that you're allowed to bring that in at another time absolutely but they're not forced to give that to you okay um as part of your professional practi practice have you gone back to assess the impact or the accuracy of your studies after the fact testified a little earlier that it was only for major projects we're only required to do it by jurisdictions for projects but yes I've gone back and done updated studies after the fact how many of those ended up experiencing traffic impacts greater than um very do I would say that happens maybe less than 5% of the time I see like generating more traffic than I projected 95% of the time is generating less because in New Jersey we have less Reliance on cars than the country as a whole which is where the data comes from I've gone back to McDonald's specifically since they've gone from the single of the double driveth and seen great improvement from that even where there wasn't previously I we're not understanding each other I I guess we're not there's an existing McDonald's with one drive I do traffic counts at it see how many cars go in and out how long drive then they rebuild it and put a double and I go back so if I wasn't a McDonald's there I couldn't go back because wasn't there before gu that's so just a couple things my name is Gina melino I'm 47 Parker Drive you say sure um m u s o l i n o so I guess um we've talked a lot about the you know the children being across the street from school you you all obviously know that um it's it actually is a middle school so it's not a you know Elementary School it's middle so you have eighth graders you know after school you know that too um I guess um I guess I'm just curious about the um well also I don't know if you know there there also was a lot of talk about the busing you know for sporting events but our kid actually the majority of which don't get bus it's not in our budget um so they're just kind of you know a lot our Walkers um and so as you know they'll be Crossing probably going to McDonald's I guess the question is um given the constraints constraints of the lot has it ever been considered to um you know not have the pedestrians or you know specifically kids walk straight you know into the circle of traffic is there an option to have a traffic flow not you know have have that um entrance you know the only entrance to the building is like through the circle of of cars you're talking about one site yes yeah mean the cars have to circulate around the entire building so there's no other way to do it okay you can have to cross it high okay like any other retail establishment yeah and then um just my other my last question really is that um I think this was brought up the last time the line of sight as you exit the the driver's exit um and Thea left there right so the crosswalk was blocked um by the building I guess and so they're making this sharp left um and so as we know you know the drivers I would imagine through a driveth aren't the most observant as they're you know grabbing a french fry looking down for a second um so I think it was the engineer mentioned he could move the crosswalk South um I think he mentioned that last I don't remember what meeting it was but um was that revised or um that's my first question secondly it seems like it's not even a possibility because um you know further south is right uh on top of the entrance and exit so I are you asking about the main side the main crosswalk that everyone's been asking about well the one in the exactly one in the Y yeah and we we've put that that speed table but you know to to make it obvious that it's Austrian cross you're making the sharp turns and you're not coming at a high speed and I'm not sure if the testimony was that it could be moved over in my view without having looked at all the site analysis it could if that was the testimony then we would the plans haven't been revised to show that minor change but if that was the testimony then we so think I think he could move it over I guess it would yeah we'll do it yeah we'll move it over okay I don't think it's a bad suggestion okay yeah that's all just really you know that the kids are um walking around so that was just a concern good evening uh m i more Drive um so for the parking configuration of the tractor again um it would have to pull forward to straighten out the trailer and then perform basically blind back maneuver which is one of the more dangerous Maneuvers for make to pull in adj the we've been over this yeah I'm just confirming many times many times so go ahead one last time yes it it would back up to that yeah you may asked answer right too is this typical for McDonald's yes designed yes that um so for the Gap intervals that you did the count for pxt are they br out by Highway Direction like the other traffic accounts were they are within the software what do you mean it says North southbound combined oh so it doesn't it doesn't show which gaps are available on the North side versus the southern side to show the disparity well you only need you only need the Northbound side and the combined because we're on the we're coming in you if you're going to make a right you have to look at the gaps in the Northbound if you're going to make a left you have that so it's the worst case scenario okay um so for the the Gap to Total gas to Gap demand relationship uh the way that it says right now is it it'll operate safely and efficiently at what point would it not be safe or efficient is that when the Gap demand exceeds the total gaps if the Gap Dem man exceeded the total gaps and yeah you have people needing to make a right who wanted to make a left B okay um so for the AL for the purpos of this clarification um the day Road exit has for Saturday has four coming out just for example uh the site exit to speed well has 37 uh the Gap analysis that you were using has the Gap demand of 37 which is just the the driveway wouldn't it also be dating as well they're both trying to grab the same gaps at the same time so you have four and 37 so the total number of your Gap demand would be 41 and other is that no not necessarily I mean you would you you could do a separate Gap stud presumably get about the same numbers you get the other one but they're in in the okay um so the the new trip distribution uh has a r 50/50 coming from north and south from 202 uh given that East hand over have is an arterial radway to the area uh would it be safe to say that most new trips would be coming off East especially since it's only a000 ft away from the I you mean trips is not pass by possibly usually it's kind of the prevailing traffic patterns we kind of went with the 5050 okay um have you performed any sensitivity analysis to the north south distribution to DET to determine how the traffic impacts would change if any of those parameters were altered yes my report I believe is a sensitivity analysis I think left turn excuse me hold on hold on my report is a sensitivity analysis I think I have way more left turns projected in my report than you're actually going to see and that was at the request of your traffic engineer to really test that worst case scenario so yes that is a works if um are you aware that if for example 75% of the new trips from the Saturday peak come from the south on side the amount of cars that would turn to go back to Eastover would exceed the total vehicle gaps and present what most likely Well Service have no I don't know that's not what the report says I know because you're assing um what if anything would trigger a traffic study for the intersection of 202 e not by you by anybody they could be the do it's more general question there's no matching um for this application can you explain the process for the do approval once this is complete yeah we we file an application in this case it's a major access application with the do they have 30 days to review the materials that we submit tell us the application complet or if we need to provide more information once it's deemed complete our case manager who's the main person at do will send off a set of plans and all of our reports to several different departments within the do uh drainage lighting um B and P there's several different departments that will review it they'll all give their comments send it back to the case manager he compil it all into one letter for us send it back to us we then have 90 days to address those comments send it back to them it can go back and forth a few rounds or it can be quick it depends on how okay and it's all based off the traffic study here or will they request subsequent no we this doesn't generate enough traffic for them to ask for a traffic study but we'll give it to him have thank you hi um I'm Jessica or 15 Avenue and I just have a few questions for you so um you stated um at November 12th meeting that traffic counts were conducted on Wednesday and Saturday May 1st May 4th you stated that the traffic counts vary from day to day we're in a hybrid work environment so no two days during the work we have the same traffic counts understanding this Wednesday May not represent peak time traffic Day times um why were traffic counts conducted for each day to determine the true Peak traffic day in time generally it's Tuesday Wednesday Thursday you want to Li your accounts Mondays and Fridays they G and have lower traffic volume so that's where we pick the Wednesday and again that's the day we did the physical data collection our staff and myself have been to the site a number of times we're not seeing anything different than we saw that day the numbers of course are going to change every day so we build in layers into our report to be conservative to account for that a growth rate that's too high traffic generation get too high more left turns than anything going to see all those things the worst case to make sure that you can absorb that crazy day where it's a little busier that's the idea okay thank you um you had said that um the traffic studies being conducted discuss the traffic scenarios while McDonald's the operational um however there will be impacts from truck traffic during the Demolition and construction phase of the site where traffic studies and simulations done for the demolition construction of the site and if so what are the levels of service During the period do traffic mitigation plans during Demolition and construction exist and if so was there was this shared with the Council of public that he's been asked that question he was asked that question tonight and he gave the answer so it's been asked to answer I can also I can assist you that um prior if there was an approval prior to construction there was a construction a meeting with FAL officials on uh to mitigate any construction impacts that that's typical that's done that they have to get from um Everybody in the B to minimize that that that's de that's how that's and do in this case thank you um I just want to address the discussion around the peak Patron times and the weight times that was discussed in the CH with you um the Insight report uh states that the national average weight time is about 5 minutes and 43 seconds you stated um it's not accurate as it does not look at peak hours and then states that we can anticipate approximately 4 minutes however you achieve an average weight time number by looking at both Peak and non peak hours which would suggest that the peak hour weit time for longer not shorter than the average weight for 5 minutes and 43 seconds so could you just explain again I'm sorry if you already did how you arve at Peak traffic week time four minutes yeah okay I I think maybe you misunderstood the the inside study I have right here that's been referencing when I first saw this is the greatest thing ever I can use this and then I thought the numbers to make sense and I realize it's because they're not looking at the PE hours they're looking at all times a day so at midnight when you go to get a burger and fries at McDonald's it's going to take you a lot longer than it would at 5:00 in the afternoon because they have many STA and as much food prepared so that's one thing the four minutes I said was the the latest Insight study shows about four minutes at mics and I said that makes sense if you said if if cars are moving up in second pods eight cars would be that four minutes that's total time the drive okay so it makes it fits but be care relying on that data because it's an average over a day not necessarily we're focused on times it's just a data we were given so I'm just want make sure we yeah I'm doing my research I'm sorry that's confusing but that's yeah um okay so you're stating um also that the car is processed every 20 seconds helping to eliminate Q issues in the drivethru studies show that the average order processing takes 45 to 75 seconds higher volumes of orders particularly during peak time which is in a longer order processing time would um you explain how you concluded that the shorter processing ratees would be achieved during peak hours it's shorter processing rate per car but it might be a longer time because there's more cars FR okay um and then sorry back to the inou report the in rep also notes that the traffic volume increases processing speeds and Order accuracy decreases these events further delay the process and extend the queue the detail report indicates that the total time for the complete endtoend process for McDonald's is 413 seconds which is just under seven minutes which conflicts with um what you had estimate approximate four minutes so we just wanted to know how you got that Peak Week time per car in touch Insight right here McDonald's 228 seconds was the average that this study found 2023 205 and 2024 [Music] 238 so I I read it right here I okay okay and then one of my last questions is on table four of the traffic in pack study shows the primary trips to the site with the friendly as an active site of car trips um however the site has been receiving no car trips for several years so how are the additional car trips shown in the table accurate if car trips are only occurring for that small office building that's based on itd projections in other words if I was going to build a friendlies and those Office Buildings those are the numbers that I would use it's informational for comparison purposes I didn't take credit for it in my analysis it's just to give you here's here's the magnitude of traffic that could already be generated out there somebody could move into friendlies and reopen it as another restaurant without having to come to this board or anywhere that's the potential again informational I didn't I assume that this is being built on in the woods no no no train Cas well I live on Hill Avenue so um that's where my concern is and um you know there's a lot more questions I have but I'll later thank you hi um Shan Davies 23 Kathleen place so my first question as the traffic just can you confirm for me that Speedwell Avenue is one lane in each Direction in front of the site yes so you've testified multiple times that if there's a backlog onto speed well Avenue cars should go around um to pass right to go around the car do I'm pretty sure and again can you confirm that in front of McDonald's it is a double yellow line it is a y which you're not supposed to pass on you don't go around on the left side of you're going on the right side of them so you're passing on the rent if a car stops and it happens all the time on speed I understand it happens let him let him answer the car stops to make a left turn through traffic uses the parking Lane to bypass them because nobody ever parks on speed have it's not that you can't but nobody's park there so that happens all the time so my question was is that legal is it legal I don't know please please and both and him too when one person's speaking let the other person finish I can tell you I can tell you if you looked at Motor Vehicle Code it would probably tell you that that's not legal and it also tells you that passing on shoulders is not legal but New Jersey do doesn't have have us put left turn Lanes in when there's a shoulder because it can be used for passing so it's just one of those things that happens I guess it's not what we want but it happens it's done okay so if a car is turning right into McDonald's and and waiting to turn right into McDonald's there's also illegally passing on the L I don't know if that is I think it's car turning right if they're far enough over or in the parking lot and they're the ones it's this is semantics it's it's the way driving happens the way this works is the way all roadway works all roadways work it's also illegal to speed but I don't know about you I'm usually not under the speed limit in PL I go to speed limit because you will get pulled over watching okay thank you Scott grer 17 Rose La just to follow up on that you said that your job is to to design a safe traffic flow suggesting that cars make illegal Maneuvers to accommodate this traffic flow I'm not suggesting that cars cars make these Maneuvers all the time on roads all over the country and especially here I just said I sat here for about a half an hour before coming over here watching what was going on and happens all the time I didn't decide that way that's the way the word is it exists thank you 18 don't have a traff ask if train my question is about the fire department and the report that you showed earlier about the fire department saying no comment with regard to this application been a journalist for 4 years National Publications I can't tell you how many times I've been no comment that means that they're not going to answer the question are you taking this no comment on this fire department rep POS versus not in fact referring to anything in the report because I've not seen the report just kind of w he didn't I think that was the attorney right he made available you can ask questions on his testimony occasionally Mr B is a little bit more indulgent than he should be that's right he provided that that the public can see it but he didn't testify you can ask him a question if you have a question or something you testif experts has said that something is on a piece of paper and we can't ask a question about it not about what he he's not testifying I'm not going to go back to no you're not answering the question thanks jul 35 Rue just wanted to ask um how did you gather data on bicycle traffic in the area or motorized SCS which we've seen a uptake of in our area we do do our traffic pedestrians there's bicycles usually the tick mark no Bic there were no bicycles in the report not those times now were there any motorized scooters in the report I think they would have called that Bic um were there any measures considered for accommodating those non-motorized users or do you just focus on the the cars themselves we we're account we putting a bike rack that was in the PRI so we're accommodating those users the roadway itself the way of the future is they're going to be accommodated more and more do is very big on B and so and from a parking perspective but anything from a safety measure for the bicycles and nonmotorized users yeah I mean that's that's the way of the future bik lanes and shared paths like wide sidewalks for makes some you see how did you conduct Outreach to gather did you uh conduct any Outreach to gather public input on traffic concerns before doing your your research I think he answered that before we didn't do that right isn't that what we're doing here well that's after the back so it's a little you know um I also just wanted to ask um is it standard practice that a traffic expert be hired by the business looking to enter a town or is it standard that be HED by the represented people both and the majority of what you've done is it mostly representing the company looking to enter the town not the town mostly that's what I do I I've represented some Town boards too but that will conclude the traffic portion of this application um Mr yes we'd like to call Nicholas gra out our play you hold the microphone [Music] right hand speak Nam my first name is Nicholas with an H last name gravano g r a v is inv Victor I I do okay Mr gra on um why don't you give the board the benefit of your education and qualifications please yes I hold a bachelor's degree from ruers University a master's degree in city and Regional planning for rers University a law degree from the Temple University School law where I received a distinguished class performance in state and local government law I'm a licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey I also hold an aicp certification I've testified before over a 100 boards in 18 different counties state New Jersey we'd like to qualify this witness as an expert in professional planning the have any questions have you ever testified before this no I have not surrounding towns yes wh Brockway five five different municipalities in County satisfied with credential okay thank you very do you want to take a break you want like 3 minutes or well I'm going to ask you do you think this is an appropriate time to uh to quit for the evening I we're prepared to go there a Perman testimony um so how long you think your be quick I could probably be around a half hour feel about I I defer to what Mr I don't what's going on to hold off for this testimony until the next meeting the only thing I'll say is that um moved a family vacation to be here tonight by a day canceled this flight and resly CU we're trying to get him in um he's cuz he was not available at which which date the next so I'm going to go out on a Lim and say there's going to be a few questions from the public followers Tes so that's that's not going to finish tonight no no I completely understand that give just just only the court reporter is the only one that's taken a 5 minute break and we're going to start the testimony con for that they [Music] that's [Music] [Music] for for [Music] [Music] right there okay okay so we won't we will not be presenting um Mr gan's testimony this evening okay and we will respectfully request a um a meeting on December 9th um to complete Mr gano's testimony that's the meeting that's scheduled oh that's reg they move to so we are the next members of the public but you probably know it the next regular scheduled meeting is the 9th and this is it's going to move to that date and it will be here right and we're going to we're going to schedule the next meeting that's here on the 9th that's a regular schedule meeting that the location is changing from the uh council chambers to here okay yes I apologize that is the next regular meeting and we'd like to start the meeting you'll have to send out a notice we'll start the meeting at 7:00 because we have other matters to consider okay all right the meeting earlier but I also need you to you'll let it be Caren care you you understand care yeah so so um I think I think we're all said yes thank you um so as you've heard the meeting will is going to continue right now it's good for 7:30 it's going to be changed so you know in advance for 7 o' here on December 9th okay thank you very much one second though I need a letter to say that you're carrying this because your letter said December 6 I need that okay okay okay thank you very good thank you and we'll see you then everybody [Music] s